said Richard he said, I don't know how you do it in London he said, if they ever asked me to come down here he said I would die.
Yeah.
He said I would I would not be accepted .
Home home counties people like me could go anywhere.
Mm.
Richard erm if I now got to the stage of saying if if you had a choice, cos I have a luxury here of six companies er most recruiters just have one job for one company.
Mm.
I've got number of jobs for a number of companies.
So it's unusual and I get told off for giving you a choice but what do you think?
I I what I want to do is make, if people going into selling advertising for the first time and most people are let's face it
Mm.
er it is important for me to get the environment right.
Now I I've got I've got two or three in my own mind but erm that could you know
At at first glance I would probably decide I'd I'd actually enjoy the golf club one but I'm sure it doesn't pay as much money.
And I'm sure I wouldn't get as good a rewards out of that personally and satisfaction as I perhaps would I don't know.
Well there there are three there are three organizations or companies there that I think you'd be er happier in especially going out for the first time and also er your style.
Mhm go on.
Well
Let let me
certainly golf clubs would be one of them
Mhm
er schools and medical.
I wouldn't put you in er around and even though you've had experience strangely enough in the roofing industry and we get a lot of roofers in advertis er er how how do you which would you have chosen.
Erm
Strangely enough golf clubs actually you you can earn more money.
Can you?
Yeah.
It's probably a harder sell because it's four colour and it's nine hundred pound for a little space like that but they're doing quite well.
But the schools
But is that because a new innovation you see.
I mean I have 
Yeah we've we've had six months
you're breaking new ground.
We are breaking new ground here.
Because they've always let's be fair they've always been around so somebody else has been doing them.
Eagle Golf Promotions is the is the largest er a sales consultant has just er finished er my club off.
You know finished their done their card and he did that in about er four da er five days it was.
The card.
What from Eagle or ?
No no no Eagle you see Eagle Prom er Eagle Promotions charge clubs for their cards as well as keeping the advertising money.
Oh I see.
We keep the advertising money and the cards are free of charge.
Well 
So 
in fact all of that product there is free of charge.
But I what I need is any anybody 
So on there you've got er oh I wouldn't know what that adverts to do with
What's that one?
Oh the cards.
But that was if I remember rightly that was a mock-up.
Oh 
If you take the real thing.
I was going to say I
Yes that's that's
where to buy a ball.
Those those are nine hundred pound page per year for two years.
Nine hundred pounds per year?
Yep.
And if you sign them up do we get the commission for the 
For the first year only.
For the for the first year.
We don't get any paid anything in the second year ?
No.
Because all our production costs all our commissions come out of the first year.
Second year is actually where we make money.
So you do an three hundred pounds.
That's nine hundred
Yeah.
You'd get thirty percent.
Nine hundred and you would get thirty percent.
So you can work out that for for erm for that card which has got three full pages.
Then he was doing that's the planner he was doing the card at the same time erm Anyway that's the there's the that's the  the, but I need to make a decision
I'd I'd quite I'd quite enjoy the golf club one.
Right.
Er I just wondered what satura saturation you've had golf clubs
Oh we've only just started them.
up here.
Yeah.
So you'd be against Eagle as the main competitor if if they've got them already 
Oh yes we're we're knocking we're we're knocking Eagle.
Because I would've thought most golf 
We we would concern 
clubs have already got them.
Yes they have but they haven't got them for free.
They've saved my club four and a half thousand pound a year.
In the cost of their cards.
Yes.
And they they can soon put that somewhere else to er good use .
And what area would I be restricted to?
Okay what I what I need before 
All right okay 
I go into any more detail are we fixed on the golf club area?
You only go in one you see.
But the other one I would've er suggested would've been the schools.
I must admit I've never seen anything like that on schools.
No but that's 
But before 
also new.
be before we go into that though
Mm.
you would give the leads is that right as I read this?
Yes we we s 
You say you got to go to that golf club or you've got to go to that school.
That's right.
Yeah you have no 
Because we've set up a deal with that school 
Yeah.
for a brochure.
Our marketing our marketing er group has gone around to all the erm er the clients within that market place erm, well not all of them at least they're gradually going round signing the contract to take the product.
That's that's done already.
We you just get a phone call from us that says, Here's here's your next assignment.
We guarantee continuity of assignment.
Within within which area would that be?
How 
Well 
large an area?
well erm we we pay thirty percent commission up to a hundred miles away from home.
Right.
We pay thirty five percent if it's more than a hundred miles away from home.
But the whole point of recruiting in a geographical area like this is we don't want we don't want to send people erm er miles away from their home if we can avoid it.
Mm.
Erm I 
I just I just try to work out whether there must be a bigger concentration of schools in this area than than golf clubs.
But whether you'd manage to sign all schools  I'm not so sure .
Oh we we've just sent out a six thousand mailer.
Six thou a mailer to six thousand schools in addition to the ones we've already got signed up.
That would not be a problem.
Let me tell you you do not have to worry about continuity of assignment.
And all we say is that we pay extra commission if we send you away but it is against er  against  our principle and even er economics to send people that far away.
Right okay.
I I have to say the top earners of course ask for those further away.
That's where they make their money.
Yes.
Or make their extra money.
Mm.
Two things that make a people a top earner here of course is one of them one of them in addition to graft, is that they won't sit back and sign up one deal and be very satisfied in a day.
Mm.
They will want to go on and do two or three.
Mm.
They'll also have no compunction whatsoever in taking 
Well let's fair on the golf 
the thirty five percent deals.
On the golf club one if you've really got your finger out and you're known 
Oh 
well enough you could you could do one in day.
I'm a I I I'm an er avid golfer, you  I didn't say a golfer because that meant I could play, erm but I wouldn't put me on the golf clubs.
You wouldn't?
No.
I could s I I even though it might make me a lot of money because I know that if I got if I made a dozen phone calls and didn't get any deals I'd be out there wanting play the er I wouldn't trust myself .
I wouldn't take no no I wouldn't take the golf clubs with me.
Right okay.
But I need to sorry I need to make.
Are we are we going for schools or colleges?
Now if if the management at home heard me doing this of course er giving you a choice but I believe in it.
And you eat the tape afterwards.
Erm  you've put me on the spot I don't I don't I've really I've really got no preference on them.
Right well I let's I I I would go for schools if I were you.
Mm okay fair enough .
I mean cos it makes a difference the pack I bring out.
Yes sure .
That's that's why I'm putting you under pressure.
Right this is for you to take away.
I'm going to ver the well the information I impart now is in brief Richard because they will certainly cover it in a lot more detail when you get to the er training .
Okay.
Let's get some samples er in front of you all right?
I have to say once again that this, once again sorry I told somebody else this, this is the most attractive product we do I believe.
The schools are seem to be able to make them look attractive because of the photography and things like that.
And they are used to get bums on seats.
Since the parents choice charter came out it is it is essential for all school, state opt-out grant maintained independent, to promote themselves.
And that's why this has been so successful.
Every assignment has a certain amount of documentation attached to it.
Certainly when you arrive at the school they are committed by their contract to provide you with a desk office and and telephone facilities for two to three week or the duration of the assignment.
But we we agree that after three weeks we should be should have completed it.
Erm the advantage that schools has er have sorry, over the other products, is that if you went to a medical practice you may have four or five doctors to help you out.
If you went to an estate agent you may if they're willing to er have one or two estate agent staff to help you out and if you went to a golf club you would be likely to have the pro or the secretary help you out.
In a school you may have fifty to sixty teachers to help you out.
And what I mean by help out is that one of the documents that we leave er when we sign them up to take the product is a list that so that looks something like this.
And we ask them to bring together er list of the businesses which they are happy for us to approach on their behalf
Mm.
to support this folder.
So all of those people there or most of them are likely to have been on a list that the school have recommended.
They will form all sorts of categories too and the worst thing you can do in sa in er negotiating advertising er Richard is to prejudge anybody 
Oh I can 
who might come in.
Be completely wrong.
You'd be completely.
I've done it myself I've said no that guy what would that guy want to go in there for.
Except that, it was a butcher right?
People moving in, this was in the medical practice, people moving in new er new er new  first things you do is register with a doctor.
Mm.
And the the butcher was gaining a lot of business out of it.
Because they said, Ah fine I know where to go for my meat.
And they are associated with the with the doctor.
So I prejudged .
we did that with the with the chemist.
We phoned the chemist to find where the nearest and best doctor was when we moved to  Preston .
There you go you see.
And that chemist er would've recommended probably
The one that gets his scripts.
Absolutely right.
Okay so this list will be waiting for you when you arrive at the the assignment.
The important thing about that Richard is you still have to sit down and talk to them about these businesses.
Get as much information as to why they have been put on that list.
Because you'll use that when you  
contact.
Yes.
So don't ex just don't go straight into that list.
No no.
Okay.
Other documentation you receive and certainly is this one and you can't do your job without that and that's a blank of of the layout.
Okay?
So that as you sell the the slots, first of all you want you want to be able to point out where which the slot is when you've er er finally sign the contract.
You also need to cross off as you sell them.
Mhm.
Once again they will tell you precisely what you've gotta do on the er training course.
But let me show you er just while we've got that open how prices relate to those slots.
And also have got an example here of what the earnings are.
Every assignment on schools has a basic target of five thousand pounds all right?
And that's what you have to have up in your mind.
It also relates to once you know that you've reached that five thousand pound, that you've got your thirty percent commission on all sales.
Over five thousand pound we pay you another fifteen percent.
There's a small one before that but I would concentrate on fifteen percent.
Mhm.
All commission er bonuses are paid at proof stage and I'll explain why in a minute.
If you just look at some the er numbers here.
One po er positions one to four are nearly five hun well say five hundred pound each.
They're premium slots.
Okay?
And then we have two other erm pricing erm areas for those slots there .
Okay I'll let you study this when you when you've gone all right?
Mhm.
Now some of the schools have asked for this spa , this by the way is belongs to the school.
Some schools have asked for that to be kept for the sch er you know for them as well.
If they take up that space you must offer up the back page.
That's which is traditionally theirs.
Yep.
In fact I think I not sure whether it's this one.
That's an example.
And also the school got that company for us.
But that's a two thousand two hundred page.
The commission on that is a third.
You can work that out for yourself.
Mhm.
You can't do the job without that.
No.
You get one of those for every assignment.
Okay.
Er a quick example down here.
If you sold the whole of that product at non-discounted prices that's the revenue.
And with schools it's very achievable.
That is the earning in your two to three week period.
Mhm.
So if you took a six week period then you're looking at somewhere around four and a half thousand pounds worth of income.
Very achievable.
I emphasized just now about the extra five percent.
I've put that in bold down there so that people understand that.
Right.
And of course that's substan makes that compounded up that makes it even more.
Mhm.
Okay?
That's for 
Yep okay.
you to take away.
We will pay all commissions the following week.
All right?
Now we're one of the very few companies that will pay weekly commissions on a commission only basis.
And the reason for that is that we ask you to do three things when you get in front of the advertiser having got his commitment.
And I'll show you very quickly the documentation.
All six companies have exactly the same contract.
The only difference is and I hope you're not colour blind
Yes.
Are you?
Are you really?
Yeah.
Oh dear.
What colour's that to you?
Oh no that's green you're okay.
I might have known.
No it's just the different different shades of green.
You're the first person I've said that to who said come back to me and said yes.
Yeah I am actually.
Those are both white I can assure you.
But it what I'm saying is that they're all shades of colour anyway.
Yes.
But erm they they're they're erm colour coded .
But but I'll only have one anyway.
That's right.
So what whatever colour 
I wanted to make sure that you see if if er at some stage, and people ask me this, if if we needed to transfer people
Oh I see.
between companies we don't have to retrain them on on 
No.
the admin which does help.
Only on the pitch.
Well my my problem only is is when the blues run into greens and the reds run into browns.
Oh when you get bleeds that's what we call
Erm I have been known to go out with one black sock on and blue sock on.
Oh have you really oh well.
I think I think we've all done that at some time or other.
Certainly odd socks.
Erm so but I wanted to point out two or three things on this contract that if you don't tell them on the phone about them before you get round there they they'll use it 
They'll frighten they use it 
The system tells us they'll use you'll frighten them off.
And this is these are the sorts of things.
You must tell them that you want to pick up a thirty five percent of the first year's payment.
Whatever the payment is agreed.
That is significant because that covers us for paying you commission.
So we've already got that.
Mhm.
So we've got that so you deserve to have it as soon as possible after banking it.
Er we need to tell them that we'll take the balance of the first year's payment through er er on proof, when we when they've got their proof on on the desk we will take the next the balance of the first year's payment through a banker's order.
Banker's order they'll use if if you haven't told them that we want a banker's order signed.
If there are two signatories on the cheque you've gotta have two signatories on the er banker's order.
So you have to make sure both sure tho both of those people are there 
when you call.
If you left this anywhere left it behind and came away it would be lost in the system you'd never see it again.
No.
And we take the second year's, this is a sales pitch, we take the second year's payment a year later.
So if they say, Oh I can't afford that .
Then you say no it's a three stage payment in effect.
Mm.
Deposit first year second year a year later .
So it would be a deposit balance of first year at proof stage and then erm
But obviously there's somebody at head office you will be going through that in much more detail.
Mhm.
Er one of the other things that we want of course.
Now that's two things, contract and the cheque.
The third thing we want to complete the deal is copy.
Now most people that come to see us have never been involved in designing or writing ads.
We you don't er nobody has to worry about that.
If they had wonderful.
I mean I had so I it did help.
We will take whatever copy they have in existence all ready where they've advertised somewhere else.
If they want us to juggle it around we will do it.
If they want us to design a brand new one we will do it at no extra cost.
So the artwork is not a problem you have to get involved in .
Is not a problem.
Right.
If they say we've got co I haven't got copy.
What's that gonna cost me?
Nothing.
I'll come round when we sign the deal after we've signed the deal I'll sit down with you for er er fifteen minutes however long it takes to decide on the copy.
Then we will compose it as long as we've got some detail.
Mhm.
If you send all those er bits and pieces in at the end of the week we just ask you and you most people don't get this wrong.
Is the commission claim sheet.
Representative oh well there you go, consultant number every assignment has a unique number.
We list the advertisers put all this detail down which once again will be er will be gone through.
Er if people have registered for V A T there's a special V A T er sheet.
Because some of course are they they reach the thirty six thousand threshold without any problem at all.
I mentioned bonuses being paid at proof stage.
Every two months a list comes out to the sales consultants to say these assignments have been proofed.
All you have to do is look for your own number er if you if you have hopefully you've kept a record of the assignments where you've earned bonus and you can claim it as soon as that number is published.
A lot of people leave it in 
Can you can you just explain that bit again
Okay.
the bonus.
Right.
Bonus all er all your thirty percent is are are paid as you declare it during the assignment week after 
Ah sorry yeah so the fif the the five percent or the fifteen point seven and a half or whatever it is 
Fifteen percent fifteen percent you claim only at proof stage.
Because that's the next stage at which we get money.
Right okay.
That's the way you do it.
Mhm.
Okay.
That's a fairly average week for a lot of people.
That was this is one of mine.
Er my last but one.
Er that's the sort of figure that we're we need to be looking at.
Right.
Okay?
Mhm.
Just to show you.
Er everything's colour coded.
Oh I see this is just for different names of the different in-house companies 
that's golf that's schools, that's the one that you would use obviously.
Same thing just the headings change a bit okay?
Yes.
That's all we ask you to do.
The advertising the paperwork and that's how easy it is to make money.
It's available to you.
Is that for you?
Sounds very interesting I must admit.
Mm.
Yeah well I I I obviously I would say this but er I think it's the best opportunity that people have for a career direction because we we've redirected a lot of people's careers in this aspect.
And also we've I suppose re-launched people's er especially in the older bracket
Yes unfortunately 
who who erm are consistently being told they're too old for things.
We have no problem with that at all.
In fact the more mature the better as far as I'm concerned.
I would trust er you much more than er erm a twenty five or thirty year old out there to get on and do the job.
Yeah.
I think er with experience becomes the the self-motivating part is something that er
Yes.
becomes inherent I think.
Er there don't seem to be quite a lot of that any more.
No.
They've had it a bit too easy I think.
Absolutely.
Well the only thing that as far as I'm concerned erm er Richard is is when would you like to come on the training course?
Right.
Erm I have as I say one other if you like self-employed business opportunity that I have been pursuing erm which erm I shall know after Tuesday of next week.
Right.
Erm which also sounds very interesting.
Yes.
What market is it in can I ask?
Yeah it's erm er consultancy in er business travel.
Is that a franchise or or what ?
No no no no you basically the company is pulled out of the ordinary high street travel business and set up a new concept in business travel.
Mm.
Therefore with no overheads .
Is this a new venture?
It was been going for two years.
Mm.
Erm but they er have only done it on a localized basis.
Erm you earn commission by taking clients who might spend say a hundred thousand pounds on business travel, whether it be flights trains
Yes.
hotels whatever.
And you sign them up or when I say sign them up they're er an account is opened
Mhm.
for them.
Right.
And you can show them of between an eighteen and twenty four percent saving on their business travel.
Oh I've got a suspicion I'm getting.
Hello.
Yep.
Right.
Thank you.
And erm obviously I've got a lot of contacts in the industry.
Erm
Right.
and it's something that I I I like the idea of
Mm.
but again like this one I need to get to know the a bit more of the ins and outs of it.
I've had a preliminary meeting with them and they've asked me to go back because they're interested in me.
Okay.
Er and that's been fixed up to go to Wilmslow in Cheshire next Tuesday.
Right.
I would like the opportunity of saying yes I am very interested.
Er but I would like to reserve making er a decision until after Tuesday.
Now whether that's a problem to you I don't know.
It would be a problem with certain people.
I would say sorry in that case er you know I wouldn't you know.
But with you I I'm happy to
It's not I'm I'm not pursuing any other P A Y E 
cos I know I know which the safer bet is and that's all I'm going to say.
Sure.
I will make er er provisional with you.
Okay.
So that you can come.
I will go through all the the bits and pieces here now and then it's all done.
Mhm.
If you phone me up and say, Yes I want to come it's all done .
Well that's what I was going to say if if we could make it that the training course came after next week and not next week then 
No I'll tell you when the next course is for erm schools  seventh the week commencing the seventh of February.
In fact which is just right isn't it?
Yes.
Yes?
Yeah.
Okay.
So I'm gonna go through  right
And is that three or five days?
I've done I'll just go
Okay.
through in a minute it's three days.
Yeah.
Date is the twenty sixth yes?
Yes.
It is isn't it yes.
Okay on Friday the seventh.
This is on the assumption that everything is going ahead all right?
Friday the six fourth that would be won't it?
Yes.
All right.
Prior to this you would have given us a phone call okay?
Mhm.
But on Friday the fourth erm I'd like you to er if ev the best thing is to read through this 
Okay.
Tells you all about where we do our erm oh er beg your pardon four day training of course I should've
Four days.
Four beg your pardon.
Okay.
Yes that's the trouble with having six companies.
They all have slightly different er variations.
Okay it's er this goes all into the detail.
Erm the Fernlea I'll tell you what I've got here the Fernlea Hotel is where the course is held and you stay and the Fernlea is somewhere around here.
There's a pier here which we've put on the new map erm and this is south promenade.
Okay?
Fernlea's somewhere around there if that helps you.
We pick up, there's the details there.
If you read that we need you to phone into that lady and it's Vivienne.
No.
Okay.
I can you can't.
I can't.
Not yet.
You come over on the Sunday evening because we do start prompt at eight thirty on the Monday morning.
Okay.
That's the hotel.
Right.
Okay.
This is all for you to take away.
If you please read that.
I will.
You phone me erm whatever your commitment is er to either us or the other people.
Mhm.
And then if you follow that procedure I'd be grateful.
Okay.
We'll pay your travel costs.
Right.
To we'll pick up all your tab but er we'll pay this separately.
Mhm.
Just need you to sign
Oh you want me to sign.
Yes just sign to say you know about that.
There's a copy there for you.
The other thing I've got to do is take a photograph.
Oh god is my hair okay I've been out  in the wind you know .
No it's all right.
All I all I ask you to do is smile.
We get some great glum looking photographs.
Oh I I'm going to vet that .

I call them discussions I don't call them interviews.
Because we're 
Mhm right.
not offering quote a job.
Er it's a business opportunity.
Mhm.
Self employed commission only.
We make it absolutely on the phone.
There you are.
You did.
So that you know that I do takes notes at the other end.
There are my notes and that it absolutely critical for us to know.
All right yes.
I haven't just done that.
It's quite a different coloured pen.
Yeah.
He did mention that to me he did say that to me .
Yeah erm There are two or three things er that erm we are essential for us to find out when people phone in.
Well first of all whether the the whole environment of selling advertising appeals.
Mhm.
Whether they can be understood on the phone.
And I'm not worried about accents.
No no.
I'm just if I can understand 
I think they are more acceptable nowadays anyway aren't they ?
Oh sure.
If I can understand people after twenty five thirty years in sales and marketing listening to people on the phone and knowing how important it is in this  then I then that's fine.
But I've actually spoken to an even a a real Tyne and Wear Geordie accent
Yes.
I say I'm sorry I cannot understand a word you're saying.
Yes.
Or very sorry I find it very difficult to understand
Yes yes.
er so it wouldn't be any good for us.
Mhm.
Because we're talking to a lot of professional people who are from all Scots you name it they're from it.
Yeah.
So that's why we we make the advert curious enough or enough curiosity in it, no vagueness I suppose we make it vague enough to say I've got to phone in.
Some people will say to us, Now I've seen your ad there's paper 
and that paper there are two things I get from that.
Either you've got a massive turnover in staff or erm you're going somewhere.
I say well it's definitely the latter.
The latter.
But there is a certain element of the former.
Yes.
Because in any self employed situation you're always going to get people who find something quote better
Mhm.
in their opinion and that's that and and they get it.
Mhm.
But in terms of turnover in staff I would I would be fairly confident in saying we have the lowest one of the lowest if not the lowest in any direct sales operation.
Mhm.
We happen to have the largest direct sales force of its kind in the U K anyway.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We want three hundred people by the end of this year because the business we've already got just waiting to be done in phenomenal.
Well
And is and is a continuation of business or is this referrals?
Well when you when you understand er when you get to understand the products I mean there's there all our six companies are represented over there er Maggie
Right.
Erm er one thing that is common across all of those products is exactly what the consultants do.
And that is bring together the advertising to fund the product.
Mhm.
Non of that product is or ever has been or is ever going to be sold.
Mm right.
It's all given to
Mhm.
you see this this this one you brought in here
Mhm.
unless the local printer's very cleaver somehow and got that advertising to to sponsor er the booklet they've had to charge for it.
Mhm.
Or they have to do what we will never do and that is take the quality out of it.
Now the doctor may be quite happy with that.
Say no.
Yes.
By law he's not even obliged to give them that as something as posh as that or smart as that.
All he needs to do is to do a photocopy
Yes.
Yeah which is what I got from my doctors actually.
That's what I got from mine.
Did you?
Until they came up with er a very cheap version of that .
Yes.
And I was disappointed I went and say, Hey
Mm.
by that time I'd been involved with .
Yes.
Erm but one of the things they did not like is for erm to have a sales consultant on the medical practice for three weeks using their 
Right.
telephones because that's part of the deal.
Mhm.
If you're not prepared to sign that contract then forget it.
Mhm.
Erm so there's no point in talking.
There are still a number of er medical practices around who still don't agree with advertising.
Mm.
Even though their own 
Yes.
B M A have said it's quite
Yes.
and the general medical council have said no problem.
That to get back to part of your original question, the company existed on folders the the estate agent folders, for fifteen years.
Five years six years ago they introduced the postal wallets because they found that estate agents were sending the very expensive glossy brochures out in the post.
It was costing them extra in postage
Mhm.
and they kept asking us to print more.
Right.
And that was expensive.
Mhm.
Postal wallets were the wonderful spin-off from there.
And they are now getting to the point where they are are popular as the folders in terms of 
Mhm.
the estate agents that take them.
Yes.
Medical practice booklets four years ago or it's five years now I guess, five years ago erm er it's almost five, legislation was brought in by the then Health Secretary Ken Clarke now our dear Chancellor.
Erm when 
You might think so.
Well yes no I said, Dear.
Should I say expensive Chancellor?
Erm 
Yeah.
but he did I a favour at  by bringing out er a law that said that they must provide something like this.
Yes.
We went to the er B M A or the G M C I'm not quite sure which and asked if we could could approach er doctors for this and they've been snapping our hands off ever since.
Schools universities and colleges they were a spin-off from the parents' choice charter.
Right.
They have to promote themselves now just as they've got to get bums on seats as they say.
Mhm mhm yes.
Er golf clubs well golf clubs will take anything they get for free.
Mhm that's true.
And we bought the company last year that did that so that 
Right.
brought it into the fold.
Now so in a in a way I've answered your your er question by saying that erm we are doing an awful lot of reselling.
Every two years we reprint this product and we resell the advertising.
Mhm.
And as we take on new assignments er two years time they'll be resales.
So it's an ongoing process that the first medical pra or some medical practice booklets are just coming up for their second resale.
Mhm right.
Schools universities and colleges in er about a year's time the first resales.
Mhm.
That's they're all the new ones.
So there is absolutely tons of work.
Mhm.
That's why we give an absolute guarantee that we will give you continuity of assignment.
Mhm.
Nobody sits at home twiddling their fingers.
Erm I can guarantee one other thing
It's intriguing sorry go on.
you will earn a far sight more money than the TEC will ever pay you.
Even though they've been squandering our money now.
Haven't they?
Oh.
It's
I was my own company er does management training and I won't touch the TECs
Yeah.
Cos I see all the waste and all the people in those organizations.
And thankfully us independent consultants in training have just been er vindicated for all we've ever said about them.
Because they've come out with a report saying what we've been saying for the 
Have they?
last few years.
Mhm.
Jobs for the boys it was.
I feel very strongly about that because it was mine your  
Yes yes.
An application form.
If you wanna have a look through some of those products while 
Yes.
I'm have a glance through this Maggie erm please do.
I know these ones.
Oh there'll probably be some er names that you've seen
Mm.
and recognize.
Yeah this is our this is our area this one.
Oh which one's that?
Oh right yes.
Yeah.
Yes.
That's a strange 
size I don't why I don't know if we still do those.
But er that came er into my hands 
Gazette.
recently so.
yes.
So erm that's a strange size.
I think somebody brought that in from er he he'd gone along when I was up here a few weeks back.
Mhm.
So I kept it.
So there's er quite a varied erm sales background here Maggie .
Mm yes.
Yes.
Stationery er Universal Supplies.
I was at Universal twice .
Is that the big company?
Yes.
That's the that's the one that prints the catalogue and then personalizes it.
I'm sure I've  I said to you on the phone I think .
Yes.
Cos I made a note Universal
Yes it is and they have you know most of their own own brands which is where they make their money obviously.
Mm.
Hampers now there's a there there's erm a market place that's advertising all the time.
Was 
Yes.
this was this done by you know the subscription each week or each month?
I didn't work on that side actually Rod.
I worked on business to business.
Oh okay fine.
Is there still 
And I and I 
er oh to the corporate market.
Yeah.
I used to go to all the erm exhibitions Olympia and GMEX and all of those.
Erm and then it was my job to chase up all the leads afterwards.
Right.
Good fun?
Yes.
Yes.
Doing the exhibitions yes.
Yes.
I had some sore feet 
Hard work
Yeah I know.
But er everybody thinks oh you're going away stay in a nice hotel.
I used to run a training course on on how to run exhibitions and one of the things that that female were always surprised about I said don't where high heels on the exhibition stand .
Yes yes.
You still see them doing it.
Yes.
Oh it's not worth it is it?
My feet are hurt, change your shoes dear.
Thankfully fashions have changed somewhat now 
Yeah that's right.
haven't they?
That's that's er that's we are I think we are subject to fashion all the time.
So the lads have er flown the coop have they?
No no.
The thirty year old is still at home.
Really.
Can't get rid of him.
Can't get rid of him.
And he's been working erm in in the shop.
We've just closed a delicatessen actually.
Oh right that's right you had a deli didn't you?
Erm yeah Ken had one and he's managed to erm secure early release from erm the lease which was due to finish in July.
Er but since the multiples started trading on a Sunday last year our sales just went down.
And you're a grandmother too.
Yes yeah.
And you dote on him I guess.
We do.
He comes every weekend.
Does he?
Oh.
He comes Friday to Sunday we keep him.
Oh can I go to grandma and granddad.
It's a big problem at the moment.
Now what's this?
Nights at the pub network.
Yeah.
Or is that nights at the pub 
Networking 
and networking?
Well it well it's really just it it mixes in doesn't it?
You just meet people erm you know
Oh sure.
Erm and it's all to do with contacts because I'm still running my own business erm of of 
Doing what?
selling hampers.
Oh right.
But this is 
I didn't I didn't hear that.
this is something though, well they're all finished now at Christmas.
But this is 
Oh you that's right 
something that Ken would like to take over now.
Ken?
My husband.
Because he's always been in er in food.
Mm.
Okay.
Erm and I'm you know I'm sure now it's it's
Yeah it's one thing that er we have to reem reemphasize to people and usually I do it on the phone, that if people have got businesses erm the way  look at it there's such a commitment by this company to
I can imagine that.
for the self-employed even the self-employed status
Yes yes.
erm we guarantee.
Er you can see the sort of backup er from the brochure
Yes yeah.
what sort of that we have.
We not have to give we're obliged to give in terms of to keep the company going.
Yes yeah.
Erm and we are fully aware that some people have got other things
Mm.
quote .
But it's when it interferes with the  thing.
They'd say
Yes.
well it's you know it's one 
Yes yes.
or the other.
Yes.
But if there're a lot of people have got evenings you know
Mm.
network marketing and things like that.
Mm.
As long as 
I think network marketing I think it I think that turns out to be jolly hard work because if you're not recruiting it's the recruitment part of it .
Oh yeah.
That has to be 
If you're not recruiting.
Yes I mean my wife and I have had a go at that.
Have you?
We're still we're still there but erm it it was the number of people you had to approach to get one into you.
Because I there's nothing wrong with it.
Eth ethically the Government have cleared it and in fact have forecast that it's going to be the one .
The yes yes 
The marketing concept.
Yeah.
Certainly is in the State and Japan
I was gonna say it's 
sixty seven percent of business goes through network marketing .
it's more commonly known 
Yeah.
abroad isn't it?
Unfortunately it still has the pyramid selling er
Tag.
attached.
Mm mm.
That's right.
And of course that's illegal.
I've got no  
Yeah we looked at er N S A.
We looked at.
Well that's who we're with.
Are you?
Yeah.
Oh right.
I wonder if this is where er  from then?
Who?
My my friend from er he lives at Sheffield.
Right.
I wonder if that's where he's heard of you then because he you know he introduced me to N S A.
Oh right.
I I went to some of the meetings and 
Yes.
I did a couple of workshops.
I don't Ian  name doesn't er
But er Ian .
Doesn't ring a bell.
No.
No.
But that's where I go.
I started down there with Wakefield
Right.
at Wakefield.
Yeah.
Oh yes I mean there I've I've I wouldn't be without my er filter and my er 
Filter well I have one yes yeah.
And the security products are very good too.
Yes.
Well I didn't see those because I didn't stay long enough.
Mm.
Right er I've got nothing wrong with it.
But of course the recruitment aspect is really 
Mm mm.
difficult and and now of course we we still retain our our distributorship but er we're not very active.
Erm okay.
There's the background there I've met you for for ten minutes.
I've spoken to you on the phone.
You can knock this one into a cocked hat Maggie.
Could I?
Yes absolutely.
I will tell you right now.
Well let me explain.
Two or three things that we need to decide here today and that's the purpose of these discussions.
Is A whether you and I think that this is er erm, if you can forget what your friend  told you about 
Yeah.
I it did I mean I thought afterwards I shouldn't have said that to er John  because he would be thinking, Oh here's negative Nelly coming along.
No that's all right.
Erm 
Erm 
You know we've got people that erm 
But I think if you put your thoughts on the table at least you all know where you're starting from 
Oh sure fine.
don't you.
Erm in fact you notice I didn't even make a note on it.
It just er I remember him saying something to me.
Oh you you somebody said that they had a bad time with erm
Because I was insistent I want I want I wanted to speak to Rod  and er I said no I when is con when is it convenient to ring back then cos he said he's got the phone glued to his ear blah blah.
Yes.
And erm well I am the same status and I am his colleague and all this you know I can help you .
John gets very defensive okay.
Yeah.
Er nice guy but he's never been in recruitment.
Right.
So he er but he had sold.
In fact he er I understand he was a very good er advertising salesman.
Yes.
They brought him inside to erm recruit without giving him any training at all and what I do has been gained over the last twenty years of recruitment.
Mm mm.
So erm in fairness to him I think he was plunged into something he didn't have a hell in er hope in at that time of coping with.
If somebody was interviewed by him and had a bad time, I can tell you I had a bad time, well to me it was a bad time, when I with him and he saw he spoke with me.
Er when I was asked for my opinion afterwards erm er I said er well I I quite honestly I wasn't er interviewed.
I thought for thought for fifteen minutes I was er should I or should I not join the company.
Mhm mhm.
If you have that bad feeling, well not join the company but .
However that's .
Erm now the three two or three things that we're talking about today really is, er and one we've just got over I think, is that you and I er I'm I'm absolutely certain you'd knock this into a cocked hat.
I've had other people here that don't come anywhere near your background and and your style and particularly your voice.
Which is so critical to us.
Mhm.
Erm the other thing is to for you and I decide er well once you tell me that you're happy er with what's happened so far.
Erm the other aspect is to decide where you feel that you er could be most comfortable environmentally.
Mhm.
In other words in what environment will you feel comfortable with working in.
Mhm.
Now I have one of those erm it is a luxury because I have erm six companies where I want people in the north east.
And to have a choice like that it means that anybody who comes in here  is not in competition with everybody else.
Mhm.
I can legitimately offer most people that came here today er I happen to have rejected a couple.
Erm because that's also what we don't do hide behind reject letters.
Mm mm.
Er regret letters.
Erm is er the other thing is when.
Mm.
When we can start.
We do have a fully expensed training course at head office.
They vary only very slightly across all six companies but the most common thing is that that we won't send people out
Mhm.
erm blind.
Mhm.
Okay?
Well that's not good for either is it?
No.
I can't I can't sell unless I'm happy with the product.
Er unless I believe in it myself I can't erm
Well er this company has er survived for twenty years.
It has it can't stop growing.
Mm.
Erm we we own all the property at head office.
There's no mortgage.
Mhm.
We just bought a printing 
Brilliant.
Yes I know.
In fact if you did a Dunn and Bradstreet 
That's lovely isn't it?
on us it would count, in effect we're cash rich.
Yes yeah.
The concept's so simple and and the country's littered with people who thought they could do it as well as us.
Mm.
I noticed all the nice motors as well.
I was thinking I would 
As in fact I had a go at that I had a go at I had a go at them about another prod er another photograph.
They've obviously lined up er all the best possible cars in the car park.
I'm not sure is that the same photograph?
Have a look at this one.
Yes it is actually we use it on one of our other brochures but they've they've got all the er all the nice cars.
And you see it when it generally er and also it's a perfect day.
I haven't seen a perfect day like that over in Blackpool yet.
But in fact where it starts here to there's the Old Mill
Right.
Right.
These have been added on.
Mhm.
It goes right the way you can see over there.
It goes right the way back.
Now right at the back here further down is erm the building belongs to us, all of this is own without a mortgage by us, right at the end er is we we've leased erm a section out to Pickfords
Oh right yes.
They're moving we so desperately need, I think we've terminated and bought the lease er bought the remaining lease.
We leased it to them because we need that area.
We're building new training schools, we've already got a big one up on er in one of the er it's it's this end here.
Mhm.
That's the whole of the training school.
Cos you 
Crikey 
can see all the smokers gathering along there  
sales meeting.
When you have a sales meeting there's the whole all the sales people who smoke, because it's a totally no smoking company.
Yes yeah.
They have they by law they have to .
I don't smoke I like that.
By law they have to put somebody er put somewhere in there for people to smoke.
But it's totally no smoking all the way through.
Mhm.
And you see all the smokers  lining up there  .
So that yes.
In fact that shows the erm doesn't show .
But they've been there for twenty years on that spot.
And of course we are looking at other products all the time.
I'm just investigating for the company er going onto radio.
Taking our ad that 
Ah.
you see.
So if people say to you well we're always seeing their ad.
Yes.
You will because we're determined that ev you'll see our ad a lot .
Everybody will.
.
Excuse me.
Mhm.
But it does give to some people that that will demonstrate that we're always looking for people
Yes.
Mhm.
because we can't hold people.
Yes mhm.
Well the the reverse is true.
Always looking for people because we need to add on.
How do you feel Maggie so far?
Are you are you erm
It sounds very interesting.
Mhm.
Okay.
What about environment which one would you ?
What about environment?
Now which one would you choose?
Erm I don't know really.
I don't know.
Erm I mean tell me in more depth how it works
Right.
Erm you know from the 
Simply our consultants, go on ask the full question sorry.
How it works?
Yeah.
I mean obviously you erm create the the interest.
Right.
Now what we do erm and this takes an awful lot of workload from the sales consultant.
Mm mhm.
We set up all the assignments.
We have a separate marketing er executive group.
Right.
That are travelling the U K right now on behalf of more than one of the companies.
We have a marketing executive who signs up golf clubs.
We have er two marketing execs three in fact that sign up schools medical practices and we have four I think to sign up estate agents.
Mm.
All independently of each other going round to the, well I say independently, but they obviously get fed a lot of information from head office where we have a telesales operation.
Right.
Who do nothing else but phone businesses and organizations and surgeries and golf clubs and tell them about our products.
Right.
They they will have the same script almost and say this is a free of charge item, all we need from you is this this and this and if you're interested I'm gonna ask a marketing executive to come in and agree a contract with you.
Mm.
In simple terms that's what they say.
Right mhm.
Marketing exec goes around signing up the contracts.
Mhm.
Right?
There will be certain discussions which I'll go into in a minute, at the at that stage which will determine what we're going to do for them.
What we're going to do for them is certainly provide a free of charge product, it's the numbers
Right.
and the when we're going to do it.
Yes.
And the who's going to do it is not determined until a couple of days before either party knows.
In other words if the estate agent or medical practice will get a phone call from us and say look we'd like to do your assignment is it convenient.
They may say, Oh wow no we're just having something done at the surgery rebuilt.
Right.
Got a couple of new doctors coming in a new practice manager can you leave it for three months.
Okay so we put that back.
Another one leapfrogs.
Right.
And then we say who's available it's it's come up in North Shields erm who is available who is just finishing an assignment.
Oh Maggie is erm fine where is she at the moment, oh she's at Hexham right well we'll give her a call at Hexham and say this is where your new assignment is going to be.
Right okay.
And that finishes on the Friday or whichever day of the week and you start the next day.
You can start the next day.
If you decide you want a couple of days off to take your grandson shopping
or something like that, er or your husband even with his cheque book, then you just have to tell us.
Mm mhm.
But if you have to tell us that you wanna week off we need some notice.
Because that might be right in the middle of an assignment and they 
Yes.
do not like that.
No no.
That's fair enough.
No.
So if you want one 
So you've got to tie all your loose ends up haven't you?
So all of this is all set up for you.
Right okay.
So that's really you literally only have to listen to the phone call and turn up.
Mhm.
All right?
Now most of the people who come to see us have never sold advertising have never wanted to.
What we do is provide them all er all of them with er a training course an awareness which does include on some with some companies two days out in the field.
Either before or after the course.
Right?
Right.
Medical practices for instance two days beforehand before coming in for three days.
Right.
Fully expensed we pay all all travelling and hotel bills.
Mhm.
The reason I'm say ask people to erm give me some idea of where they feel, I may have my own ideas, where they feel, depends on the information I impart on people.
That's why I like to get that out of the way.
But in essence we are erm all of the sales er marketing execs are discussing the same thing with whichever organization.
Mhm.
How many booklets how many postal wallets how many cards how many folders we're gonna print for them.
Right.
That will depend on the information we get from them.
Mhm.
We are er going to ask them to compile a list of businesses which they are happy for us to approach.
Mhm right.
How are you doing your telemarketing at at the TEC?
I've been provided with lists.
And what what what typically are they?
Erm people erm the TEC database actually
All right.
and people who have responded to circulars that they've just sent out.
Where they're offering the free hours counselling and er and the two days yeah you know consultancy 
and the investors  okay yes all right.
Okay and what's the sort of reaction that you're getting from them?
Very good actually because it's free though isn't it?
You you can't really knock it can you?
No.
Now that would be an ea that's er telemarketing in it's in it's pure sense in that you're offering something free are you interested 
It's softest form isn't it?
it's soft.
We have to harden ourselves up for this.
Mm mhm mhm.
But if you've got the right attitude and right, as I said on the notes, right voice and the right er personality, it it's just the same as having somebody face to face.
We have the luxury of course of having to go face to face anyway.
Yes yes.
Because most telesales people don't, even in advertising.
Mhm.
They do it all through the fax
So after you you've erm do it would I then go out to see people, is this what you're meaning?
Yeah.
Once you've go we what we don't do in in advertising erm whatever your er your son may do himself, is it your son in in advertising?
No.
No.
Where did I get that from?
Don't know.
He he was in the deli with us .
Oh sorry that was my last 
my last.
That's how you carry on.
If I play my tape back I'll me say that again.
Erm no in in terms of selling advertising we make sure that the prospective advertiser knows absolutely everything on the phone.
Mhm.
We don't make appointments to go and see people to talk about advertising.
Only to talk about the contract and the copy.
Mhm.
And to pick up a deposit cheque.
Right.
If you if there are certain things that if you don't tell them on the phone, including the price, we tell we talk price.
Yeah there's the price it's size it's this product you know the reason we're phone you because you've been identified as by the estate agent or medical practice or school as being very suitable and they would very much like you to support this.
Right okay.
And it will cost you this.
It will cost you this per year for two years.
Mhm.
And it will it will get to this number of people and this is how it will be used.
Now that's not face to face that is on the phone .
That's right yes yeah mhm.
And one of the things they do on the training course is is to compile a script with you.
Mhm right.
And I had a script but after a while you don't you set that aside and use your own style.
Mhm.
I know 
It's a good base to work on.
Yeah.
They sometimes come across stilted don't they when you're trying to
Yes that's right.
trying to do your own thing and 
Yes and don't don't break in I've got to read my script.
So that's that's
Yes.
in in a nutshell what we do.
Mhm.
And quite honestly about it.
It's not people only make this job difficult I believe erm if they don't listen to the people who's who have been doing these things for twenty years.
Mhm.
And er I include myself in that by having been in sales and marketing for all those years I thought I I could do anything.
Mm.
But this is so different to what I'd been doing as it is for most people.
Mhm.
Well as to which discipline erm
I feel you can do this and I know you I think you know you can do this.
I would think erm estate agents or schools.
Yeah I wouldn't put you in estate agents.
Wouldn't you?
Why?
They've been going for twenty years and er there's er school is very much, I would have put you straight into schools
Would you?
Yes.
Oh well.
I'm glad you if you if you'd 
So I was half way there then wasn't I 
have only mentioned estate agents I'd have I'd have been disappointed because
Yes.
you know now you've given me a let out.
Erm schools I think schools is just up your street mainly because erm And I'll tell you another why I think schools will benefit a lot of people going, first of all it's a fairly new product so we're really in the launch up stage.
Mm.
That actually benefits us here by the way.
Remember estate agents have been going for so long they say, Oh is that another folder?
Mhm mhm.
Whereas you say I'm I'm responding here for Gosforth Park School or whatever you know, that might not exist but,
Yes.
erm er any school because estates state schools and independent schools
That's right.
erm there's a certain prestige about erm going on to a school.
As there is with all of those but not necessarily estate agents.
Yes.
However, the other aspect is that if you go to a medical practice you may have four or five doctors to help you out.
If you go to an estate agent you may have two people to help you out.
Mhm.
Go to a golf club you may have just the golf secretary.
Go to a school you've got fifty to sixty teachers.
Mm mm.
And I recommend to anybody who goes on the school, I'm sure they do on the training course, that the first opportunity I would have to address erm the con er the staff meeting, you just say this is what I who I am this is why I'm here I've got a list of businesses which the school has provided with me already but I I will I may erm if I bump into you in the corridor I may just say do you know anybody else.
Mhm.
And they they you know if you've got a bit of style and and maturity about you that will go down well.
Mhm.
Let's talk about schools.
Mhm okay.
That determines the pack I bring out you see.
Right.
I may keep that that'll be helpful I'll send that back to the school er to the er Incidentally would you like a cup of tea?
I'm fine thanks Rod actually no I'm fine thanks.
Would you mind if I ordered one cos I am
No not at all no .
I missed lunch and everything.
Yes that coffee must be .
When my wife transcribes this she'll say 

Thank you Mr Chairman, ladies and gentlemen.
There have been suggestions in recent years that there's a sub-group of patients with  bladder cancer in whom there is a reduced likelihood of recurrence, and it may be possible in those patients to amend the follow-up protocol and omit the six and nine month check cystoscopies.
Before implementing such change in our practice, we reviewed our own experience and assessed the likely impact of that change and I'll present that experience today.
The paper which first drew our attention to this possibility was that of Fitzpatrick in nineteen eighty six.
He looked at four fourteen patients, with  well differentiated on the basis of tumours, and found that both number of tumours and size of tumours were significant in determining the likelihood of recurrence.
He also found that pati eighty percent of patients who had a negative three month cystoscopy never had another recurrence in the remainder of their follow up.
Conversely, only ten percent of patients who had recurrence at that three month cystoscopy went on to have no further recurrence in the remainder of the follow up.
Several other ones  issue in a number of different ways.
Palmer looked at three hundred and five patients, in an M R C study, and from a multivariate analysis, he found the number of tumours from that diagnosis was the single most  feature.
The size and the result of the three month check cystoscopy were also of considerable importance.
Morgan in nineteen ninety one took a hundred and seventy patients again found the number of tumours at diagnosis to be most important.
Then he looked specifically at the effect of the results of the three month or si six month cystoscopies, but they did note that only those pa only those patients who had recurrence in the first year went on to progressive stage.
And the final paper of, of these.
Prout in nineteen ninety two  a hundred and seventy patients and again found the number of tumours  the most important feature.
The size was also important, but only in those patients who had single tumours at presentation.
Despite these, this data, there seems to be little evidence yet of any change in common practice of three month check cystoscopies in the first year, six monthly in the second year, and yearly checks thereafter.
The papers I've mentioned did make some suggestions, in particular Palmer, in his paper recommended that if the patient had a single tumour presentation and a negative three month cystoscopy, then subsequent cystoscopy could be performed yearly.
Kent performed a mathematical analysis to determine the optimum follow up erm regime, and for patients with well differentiated non-invasive tumours, and no recurrence in the first year, he recommended a nine monthly regime.
And finally Morgan, looking again at solitary well differentiated tumours, suggested a regime similar to that of Palmer's, namely missing out two or three of the check cystoscopies in the first year.
We felt from this that there was, there was reasonable evidence to introduce this programme into our practice, and we, we looked at our patients erm at  and  , and we looked at all patients who'd had moderately or well-differentiated transition cell carcinoma of the bladder at diagnosis, a non-invasive tumour, small, solitary, with a minimum follow up of one year.
We didn't routinely measure or weigh our bladder tumours over this time, erm we have excluded any patient, any patient where the weight was recorded to be over ten grammes, and similarly any patient wh where it was recorded that the diameter was greater than three centimetres.
And we've also excluded those patients where the surgeon recorded that it was a large, extensive tumour.
We excluded patients with carcinoma sutch or  tumours at diagnosis.
We divided our patients into three groups, depending on the results of the three month check cystoscopy.
Group one had no recurrence at the three months.
Group two had recurrence at the site of the original tumour, and group three had recurrence elsewhere in the bladder.
We calculated the recurrence rate using the formula here, the number of cystoscopies at which recurrences were found divided the total length of follow up in months, and multiplied by a hundred to produce a convenient figure.
And this is what we found.
We identified a hundred and forty one patients who fitted the criteria at the diagnosis.
The mean age was sixty three, and the male to female ratio was approximately three to one.
The maximum length of follow up was twenty six years.
Group one, which is the patients we're particularly interested in, there are ninety two patients here, and eighty percent of them, seventy four patients, had no recurrence in the first year.
There were eighteen patients who had recurrence, twenty percent of patients who did have recurrence in the first year, and we've subdivided those, labelling seven patients protocol violators.
These were patients who missed the one or more check cystoscopies in that first year, and went on to have recurrence when they were next cystoscopied.
The mean recurrence rate for this group overall was one point nine five.
There were forty nine patients who had recurrences  at, at the three month cystoscopy.
Erm and the recurrence rates were considerably increased at eight point one and nine point three.
And this does tend to add weight to the suggestion that the result of the three month cystoscopy is a good guide to the likelihood of developing recurrence.
Looking at recurrences a little closer, of the eighteen patients, fifty percent only had a solitary recurrence in that first year, and no patient had more than four recurrences.
Of the protocol violators, those seven patients who missed out a cystoscopy and then had recurrences, six have only had occasional recurrences during the remainder of their follow up, and one required  chemotherapy four years from diagnosis, when he developed multiple superficial recurrences.
If we implemented this protocol on these patients, we would certainly be leaving these eighteen patients with small tumours in their bladder for several months longer than would previously have been the case.
Now we don't know the long term effect of that, but the experience with the protocol violators suggests that they won't come to any great harm, but obviously the number is small.
One patient in the whole series went on erm to progress to muscle invasive disease.
He was in group three.
That is, he had tumour elsewhere in the bladder at his three month cystoscopy, and no patient has died of bladder cancer from these hundred and forty one patients.
To summarize, for a well flagged group of patients, with small solitary non-invasive transition cell carcinomas at d at diagnosis, and negative three month cystoscopy, we found eighty percent of our patients would certainly have come to no harm at all if their second cystoscopy had been one year from diagnosis.
Twenty percent of our patients would have had recurrence in that year, but on the basis of our experience, we think it unlikely they would have come to any great harm, as a result of having their cystoscopy delayed, and we would recommend this protocol to the management of superficial bladder cancer.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I think what we should do, as we've got two papers on similar topics, is er  take any questions that are specifically related to the t to this paper and the, the methods used in this paper, and then after the next paper have, have both speakers up to address the topic er of er of timing of follow up cystoscopies.
Are there any questions now that we would like to ask?
light on the auditorium.
Dazzle us a little less, so that we can see .
Right.
Can I just ask you, your protocol violators who 
Mm.
should have come back but didn't,
Yes.
did any of them have symptoms during that time when they had recurrences, that brought them back?
I don't think they did, no.
No.
They all just came back for a regular routine follow up, just a little bit late.
Right.
Well, let's assume you're saving the questions for after the second paper.
Shall we now move on to er the next paper, The Better Use of a Check Cystoscopy , by Steve .

Right, good morning, has everybody got two handouts, one called  can you all hear me okay?
Oh, it's the first time I've used one of these so  you should have two handouts, one called Advocacy Guide, one called Advocacy Criteria Guide.
Has everybody got t those two handouts?
Okay, a couple of  before we start.
If you haven't picked up these two handbooks that are on the table outside, can you do so some time today, okay?
So by the end of today make sure you've got those.
Also, just a reminder, next week you won't have a lecture at this time.
Your lecture will be at eleven o'clock, that's for next Monday.
Right, some of you know me, some of you don't.
For those who don't, my name is .
Erm, and I'm going to be talking to you this morning about advocacy.
Now, you may not realize it but you've been in civil litigation and criminal litigation, you've been doing advocacy all term.
Because what is advocacy?
Presentation, collection of information, preparation of information.
It's not just standing in court.
Advocacy is the skill of good presentation and information, and that starts on the day that you first interview a client.
It goes on when you're actually preparing statements, affidavits, pleadings, all those things which will eventually be used in court.
It's not just the end result of standing up in court and representing a client.
But this part of the course that we're specifically calling advocacy will concentrate on that part of the skill of advocacy, of the actual standing up and presenting information.
Why do you need to know advocacy skills?
One of the reasons is because the Law Society says you've got to have advocacy skills, and you'll find in your manual the actual amount or degree of advocacy skills you will eventually have to learn.
This is what you might call phase one within the L P C.
Phases two and three you will have during your training contracts.
Some of you might be thinking, well, I'm never going to advocate, I never intend to go anywhere near a court.
Even if you don't, the skill of advocacy, the skill of thinking concisely, presenting clearly, is a useful skill even if you never actually use it in the courtroom.
In meetings, in presentations of all kinds, the skill is useful.
Those of you going into large practices may think well, I'll never advocate, counsel will do it, but times are changing.
Large practices are more and more expecting their solicitors to do their own advocacy, and not instruct counsel.
Some large practices are beginning to put themselves forward as specialist advocates for smaller firms who can't specialize in that way.
So whichever sort of practice you're going into, you may at some point be required to advocate in some sort of court setting.
As I mentioned, you've been getting some advocacy experience, although you might not have realized it, in litigation already.
When it comes to the summer in your options that you take there, you will to a lesser or greater extent get some more advocacy experience during the summer.
But we're concentrating this week and next week on the advocacy skill of standing up before a court.
What's advocacy about?
Is it just the contents?
Is it the presentation of information?
Or are there lots of other things that you need to be aware of?
This is the impact that a speaker has when they stand up and speak to a group of people.
Only seven percent of the words that they speak, of their impact, based on the words they speak, thirty eight percent is based on their voice and the way that they present that information.
Fifty five percent are all the other messages that you're giving out, by the way you stand, the way you dress etcetera.
So when you think about when you're preparing for your advocacy exercises, the actual content that you prepare, although important, is not going to have the maximum impact.
The maximum impact is going to come from the way you stand, lots of other things, the way you speak  that's based on various studies that were done.
They weren't on court settings so I would imagine in a court situation perhaps the impact of words is slightly higher, you might expect, but it's still going to be a low percentage in respect of the overall conta image that's put over.
So when you are preparing, you need to think about the words you use.
They need to be clear, they need to be simple words, they don't need to be complex ones, because you've got to put over what you're saying very clearly.
To be effective you've got to structure the information that you give.
You will be getting scenarios and you won't be expected to put all that information over in one block, you're expected to structure your information.
You also need to develop a persuasive line of argument and we'll come back to those things later on.
So let's consider for a moment  what are the attributes, the other attributes, that an advocate needs?
I'm just going to put the video on for a moment   Thank you.
I'm sorry, it stops before the jokes start.
I'm afraid no matter how good your advocacy performance is, you're never going to get an ovation like that, and we won't expect you to do it in front of that size of audience either.
So the reason I put Jasper Carrott up here is just to think for a moment, here's somebody who's obviously a really effective and great communicator.
But could you send Jasper Carrott out to court ?
Okay, then you would all agree, you've got to put him through the old P C course.
Why can't you
why can't you send him down to court?
What have you got to change about him?
His coat, yes.
So the way he's, isn't it the way he's dressed for that is fine, but you can't send him down to court like that.
The er facial expressions are perhaps over the top for court?
Sorry, the unedited version   Right, so what have you got, what have you got to change about him?
What have we got to change about ourselves?
We've got to think about the way we dress.
Dress is not going to be compulsory
Well, dear, I suppose you really would make an impact then wouldn't you?
Erm  but we won't, well we're not going to be descriptive, we're not going to ask say that you must wear suits or you must whatever.
But our experience is that this sort of ad this sort of presentation  interviewing those sorts of things, they're very different forms of presentation.
But this form of presentation, which needs to be quite formal, what other students have found is that if you dress formally actually it helps you to act formally, because this sort of presentation is going to be very different.
Right, so what are we going to ch we're going to change the way he dresses, we're going to change the mannerisms, various things like that.
One of the things you, you've got to do is get used to actually talking standing up and the first thing you do you find when you s talk standing up is you discover that you've got hands.
I talk with my hands.
Many people talking with their hands.
And you've got feet, and you move around.
And you've got hair that falls in your face and you sort of, and all those things you've got to learn to cope with because if you're worried about what you're doing with your hands, or your feet, or your hair, then you can't then concentrate on putting over your information effectively.
So when you're practising  bail application, and I'll talk about that in a moment, think about what you're going to do, how you're going to stand.
Those of you who saw  today will know that he calls this position the Adam and Eve position.
And then there's the Prince Philip position.
Or there's holding, anything, that keeps your hands under control.
If you know you tend to talk with your hands, how're you gonna keep them under control?
The other thing that tends to throw people the first time they every do ad advocacy is that you're going to talk to somebody who will not talk to you, who will not s possibly even smile at you, who won't give you the usual feedback that we're u that we're used to when we're talking to someone.
So be prepared for that, be prepared that the person you're going to talk to is not gonna give you that usual to and fro feedback and don't be thrown by that.
Preparing, try not to use scripts.
When you're preparing what you're going to say, use notes, and I've given you some guidance in the handout on using notes.
Why not use a script?
Because if you're speaking from a script you're going to be speaking like this.
You can't make eye contact if you're speaking to a piece of paper.
You can't be persuasive if you're speaking to a piece of paper, if you're reading from a script.
Also, what you generally find is that if somebody is reading as opposed to refreshing their memory from looking at a piece of paper and then letting it flow, if they're reading from it it's dull, it lacks sparkle.
The words may be brilliant, the sentences may be perfectly constructed but it hasn't got that life in it that the more spontaneous talking will have, and it's less persuasive.
Those of you who've done some advocacy before may have used lecterns.
You will not be getting lecterns this time around.
The reason we've elected not to give you lecterns is you'll never get lecterns in real life.
If you go into a real court there aren't lecterns.
So you've got to get used to advocating with just an ordinary table, and how do you do that?
How do you cope with that?
Again, if you're going to be using notes, you don't want to be talking down to a table, so think about whether you're s you're going to, in your practising, are you going to let your eyes flick down to your notes that're on the paper, on the table, or are you gonna pick them up?
Are you going to just have them in front of you so you can flick your eyes up and down to remind yourself what you're next going to say?
Don't hold them too far up.
Remember in your content that you're representing a client.
The court isn't really concerned about your views, it's concerned about your client and the argument you can formulate for the client that you're representing.
Be realistic about your client's position.
Don't try to paint a picture of your client being the perfect citizen if he's not the perfect citizen.
The other thing to remember, you're trying to persuade the court to your views, or the view that you're putting forward for your client, you're not telling the court what they must think.
You're putting over information on the basis that the only thing that a t an intelligent person think  I'm saying to you now, what's going to be the effect of that on the listener?
If somebody says you must think this, the only way of doing it is, that's not going to be persuasive.
So you've got to think in terms of persuasion.
Right, what are we going to expect you to do?
The first exercise you're doing is a bail application.
And the timetable for that will be going out on the, the noticeboard some time this afternoon.
Now some of you will be doing your bail application on Wednesday and some on Friday.
Because, and you'll be given the instructions for those in your small group sessions today.
Because the, we can't put all of you into, that're doing advocacy into one small group session, you may find yourselves with a different tutor, or at a different time, to when you would normally have your small group session.
So be careful to make sure you find your number on the timetable and know where you're going and who you're going to be with.
Also, you're going to be doing it in fours, so four will you, four of you will arrive at the beginning of the session, and four of you will arrive half way through.
And those of you who ar who arrive half way through will need to wait outside.
All the times that you need to arrive at you will find on the timetable.
The first session is designed to be one that gives y gets you accustomed to advocacy, to be non-threatening, and to be one where you can simply literally find your feet and get used to advocating in that way.
You won't be given a great deal of feedback in that session, just enough to get you going.
The majority of the feedback you're going to get to help you find your advocacy skills will be after the supervised litigation that you'll do next week.
I think you were all given a timetable last Monday which showed where the various advocacy things are going to be.
So this week you'll do a three minute application, you'll see the way in which th that's going to be done from the instructions in the small group session that you'll get today.
Non-threatening, try and relax, just try and get used to standing on your feet.
It will be videoed, to se you'll make two applications within that small group session and a second will be videoed but only for you to see so that you can take it away and try and learn from er seeing yourself on video.
The second advocacy exercise is on that first er timetable called unsupervised mitigation.
You'll be given a ro a pair of you will be given a room on your own, and a video camera, and asked to practise advocacy skills plea in mitigation.
And the second ad the third advocacy will be the supervised mitigation when you'll do it with a tutor and then have separate individual feedback given to you.
When you come to the small group session this week, you'll need to bring with you your video tape.
Make sure it's at a point on the video tape where it can be recorded immediately because there won't be time to find the right point, and also make sure you bring with you a watch because you're going to need to be very tight on, on times, so try and remember to bring a watch with you.
All the pieces of advocacy that we're going to ask you to do are short.
Three or four minutes is all that we're going to ask you to do each time.
One of the reasons for that is that one of the skills of the advocate is to learn to be concise and to get over the message very quickly, and that's one of the reasons for giving you a short period of time.
The other thing that's available to you in making your preparation is a video of local practitioners.
It will be available from tomorrow morning.
You'll be able to borrow it from the office downstairs and view it in the library.
On that video you'll find three local practitioners.
They, on that video, are bill er bail applications, applications for plea in mitigation applications and three examples of how not to make an application before the court.
All three are very experienced advocates before the courts but all three of them have deliberately done one application wrong, so you can see the typical things that advocates do do that should not be done.
And I think, if you look at that video, it will actually perhaps encourage you because it sh yes, those are experienced advocates, I'm not expecting you to refine your skills to that level, but I think if you see the, the erm the level of which experienced advocates advocate at it will actually perhaps make you relax a little, if you see the stand realize that the standard we're expecting you to go to is not, not anywhere near quite as high as that.
I'm going to show you an excerpt now from that video.
The full video will be available tomorrow morning.
Please, your worship, this is a most unfortunate case.
My client's a young man of thirty six years of age.
He appears before the court for the first time for what is essentially a domestic assault on his girlfriend.
Perhaps I can give you some of the background to this particular matter.
My client and his girlfriend have been together for some six year, they have three children aged six, five and four.
They originally lived in the home counties but came up to this area two years ago.
Er, my client has been in business at the u his own firm supplying computer software in a specialized market, that is stock control systems for clubs, pubs and restaurants.
You can imagine this has meant him working very long hours, one of the other problems he has is he suffers from diabetes.
Working long hours also means that er he also gets very tired and, as he now acknowledges, when he's tired he tends to be short-tempered.
That then is the background to this particular incident.
Because of his working hours he is not giving as much time as he ought perhaps to his family, although he's always tried to ensure that weekends are devoted to his children.
When this incident occurred he'd been working on a project in Harlow in Essex setting up another system.
This had entailed him working long hours.
On the Friday before the incident occurred he had not got home until three o'clock in the morning.
He'd then had to drive back down to Harlow again the following morning to sort out further problems with the system.
Returning about tea time, he'd then gone out once more to deliver some computer disks for another project he was running in Heanor.
He returned home about eight o'clock in the evening, feeling absolutely exhausted, and as he said, all he wanted to do was go to sleep.
There had been problems in his relationship with his girlfriend and indeed he'd come to see my firm about six months ago because of the deterioration in that relationship and had general advice then about his legal position should there be a separation.
He had not come back after he had been given general advice, and he had what he describes as an uneasy peace in the relationship with his girlfriend.
She was insistent in case there should be a separation that he should make some form of, of proper financial arrangement for them, a legally binding agreement.
When he returned home very tired on the Saturday evening she turned on him and began nagging him again about the possibility of a separation and that he should make proper commitment to her.
Unfortunately, in the course of that discussion, he lost his temper with her, there was a struggle and she suffered some minor bruises and scratches.
The police were called, my client was arrested and was detained at the police station from about midnight on the Saturday until eventually he appeared before the court about four o'clock on the Monday afternoon.
He'd been in custody there for nearly thirty six hours altogether.
He was then released on bail and, as is the custom, the police required conditions of his bail that he should not go back to his girlfriend's address to prevent any possibility of any further offending.
He therefore has been living with friends, sleeping on their floors, for the last few weeks, because he's complied explicitly with the conditions of his bail.
He's therefore not been able to contact his girlfriend, he's not been able to see his children, er, although he has missed them very much.
He now says that he does love his girlfriend, he does want to make that relationship work, and he's very hopeful of making a reconciliation.
Madam may feel that having spent so much time in custody for the first offence that he has already suffered sufficient punishment, he's been kept away from his girlfriend and children, and under those circumstances I would urge you Madam to take a lenient course of action, to make him the subject of a conditional discharge.
Apart from anything else, that'll ensure the court that he is not tempted to be involved in any similar incident in the future with is girlfriend.
And Madam, I'd also ask you to say that to  to him to pay compensation for the minor injuries she's suf she's suffered and of course you have to consider that's a point in a case involving assault, would be to add insult to injury, and would not assist the parties in coming to terms with their relationship and hopefully attempting a reconciliation.
Right, so  is a very experienced advocate.
If you can get it as good as that your first time up you must be a natural.
Cos if you notice, hardly any moving around, if you think about  had a go and think about , the dress is different, the manner is different, the voice is different, very little facial expression even, certainly very little movement, but good eye contact.
The whole of the way through that he was looking at the person he was trying to im not staring at them, but good eye contact, so if you're trying to influence somebody there's no point in looking somewhere else.
You look at that person.
Let's have a look at how  deliberately did this one wrong.
Please your worships, I appear on behalf of Mr Smith this morning.
He's a man of er of previous good character.
He's er, he's er, twenty er no thirty six years of age, thirty six years of age Madam.
He appears before the court for the first time, he's of previous good character and erm and er has never been in trouble with the courts before and er Madam I'm going to suggest to you that this incident was brought about not by any fault of his own, but, but by his girlfriend and her behaviour towards him.
I ask you to deal him leniently in that because of that.
Madam, my client's thirty six years of age and lives with his girlfriend.
He has been working very long hours setting up in business here in er in this area er he gets home late at night and I'm afraid to say that over the last few months he's been nagged continuously by his girlfriend who wants him to try and sort out financial arrangements because the relationship between the two of them's not been very good.
He comes home late night, one Saturday night, having been working long hours, not having enough sleep, she nags him and Madam he loses his temper with her and Madam, I am sure that you and I in our relationships   same sort of stress in a different situation where, where we've been nagged by our partners and lost our temper and pushed them about, or whatever, and we'd be very surprised I think to find ourselves in, in my client's situation had that happened, because what, what happened here Madam was that erm the girlfriend suffered some minor injuries, nothing to worry about really  .
I think Madam yeah she complains Madam of er scratches to her arms and bruises to her upper arms where he allegedly grabbed hold of her erm and that really is it, nothing to worry about at all.
sort this out sensibly, the police overreact, they arrest him at midnight in the clothes he stands up in, they take him down to the police station, he's held in the police station for about thirty six hours or so, something like that, er instead of being brought before the court straight away and released on bail straight away, they, they keep him in custody where he's never been before, er and Madam he's then released on bail but court imposes silly conditions on him, conditions that he shouldn't go back to his home address, he can't go and see his girlfriend, he can't go and see his children, er, and Madam it seems to be an abuse of the process really of the court to behave in this way.
He's therefore been stuck, living on er friends' floors for the last few weeks, not being able to go back to his girlfriend and not being able to see his children, er and Madam that's had an effect on his, on his business as well.
So Madam I'm asking you to say that these circumstances, this is the sort of case that should never have come before the court, it should've been sorted out between the parties themselves, with the aid of their solicitors, and that it's only the overreaction of the police in this particular circumstance that brings him before the court here.
He's got no previous convictions.
Madam, I'm gonna ask you to say in those circumstances that we should give him the maximum discharge.
You appreciate that means he has no, effectively no record at all and that seems to me to balance up what's happened here against er against the fact that he's got no previous convictions Madam.
I think to impose any other penalty upon him would merely be to exacerbate the situation.
He's suffered enough.
He's been in custody for two or three, three days, thirty six hours or something like that already, and not been able to see his family, and er got into all sorts of mess because of that Madam.
Er er and it seems to me that the court shouldn't be clogged up with cases like this.
So I'd ask you Madam to go along with what I'm suggesting and make him the subject of an absolute discharge so that he doesn't have any previous court er any, any convictions or anything like that on his record.
And Madam I'd ask you not to make any award for compensation to his girlfriend cos that's just gonna add insult to injury really, isn't it?
So Madam I'd ask you to go along with what I'm suggesting, that's an absolute discharge and er 
About the only thing he got right was what he called the magistrate, he called her a madam, because when you're appearing before a stipendiary magistrate, one magistrate on their own, it's sir or madam.
Yeah, the hands, no structure, did you notice he hardly ever looked at the magistrate, although yeah his voice projection was still good because he's an experienced advocate, but he was talking to the table nearly the whole time.
Now if you, if he, as I hope you will do, have a look at the full versions, you can have a look at the shorter excerpt in a moment.
If you have a look at the four versions of the videos, I hope what you'll do is have in front of you er the advocacy criteria guide, which we'll speak a bit more about in a moment, and actually look and see well, how is it that these people meet, those things, they don't necessarily  but how, how are they persuasive advocates?
Okay, let's look at a slightly different style.
Again another very experienced advocate.
This first one is only an excerpt because I'm then going to contrast it with how not to do it  
Sorry, I think it's worth noting some of the circumstances giving rise to Mrs Brown er committing the offences which bring her before the court today.
So you're dealing with a fifty one year old lady, she's never been in trouble, has no previous convictions, a lady, Sir, who divorced in nineteen seventy six, she brought three children up single-handedly and so she has done all she can, er often at great personal sacrifice, to ensure the best financial stability and the best emotional support for her children.
She's perhaps done what most working mothers do, she's put the children first.
She had a good working record.
Er, Sir, she was working in the care sector as a residential home manager.
She held a position of trust and responsibility.
That was until about two years ago when unfortunately the home where she worked was closed down and she was made redundant.
It was at that stage, Sir, that Mrs Brown made a claim for benefit to support herself and her eleven year old son and so that claim for benefit was a perfectly legitimate one.
Sir, in June nineteen ninety two Mrs Brown er successfully obtained temporary work working for the Nottingham Community Hospice as a nursing auxiliary and the work was initially intended to be for a period of about three months.
It was on a temporary basis.
She wasn't sure as to whether er it would work out.
It was er at that stage in her life her two eldest children returned home, her daughter because she'd fallen pregnant and her son because his marriage had unfortunately broken down.
Very different style, and you've got to find your own style because it's got to be one that suits you.
If you noticed  copes with his hands by pushing them behind his back, copes with them by having her papers in her hand.
But again, she's making good eye contact, both of them only let their eyes flick down to their notes to remind themselves of the next point they want to make.
Now their notes.
People's notes   to how full they are.
What I would advise you to do is not use whole sentences in your notes because then you'll be tempted to read from the notes.
So  notes that're in true note form.
Write down enough that you feel confident that if your mind blanks you've got enough there to remind you what you want to say.
But then use some method of highlighting key words or underlining or sub- heading that pe you can just flick your eyes to and remind you very quickly of what you're going to say.
gave a brief history, brief outline of the case.
She did then, did go on and develop her argument more.
But let's contrast that with when  did it deliberately wrong  
Sir,very very serious charge and I'm sure that you'll be thinking about sending her er to prison today.
I mean, she's told you about her three children but er I suppose she should've thought of that, shouldn't she, before she signed on?
Still, her children are quite young and erm and I, I think she's sorry for what she's done.
Erm, erm, I have got a note of their ages somewhere.
Er, er, it doesn't matter about that but there are three young children.
Er, it is an awful lot of money of course.
How much is it, two thousand pounds, well she's offered to pay it back at two pounds a week and er it's gonna take a long time, isn't it, Sir, for her to pay it back?
But er she does want to pay it back, she does want to pay it back, and er well she wants to pay it back, erm, if you could start it this time next year she'd be er she would be grateful for that.
Er, she is sorry, she's sorry that she's committed er she committed the offence.
Er, and I don't think she's been in trouble before.
Mrs White, have you been in trouble before?
No, the culprit has not been er in trouble before.
Erm, yeah,sh I know you'll be thinking about sending her to prison today but if you could think of anything else that  erm, I don't know, a suspended sentence or something like that, then obviously she'd, she'd be really grateful for that, wouldn't you, Mrs, yeah   erm, er, Mrs White is there anything else you want me to say?
Er, well, I think that's it for Mrs White then.
Okay, so when you come to look at these videos, okay, slightly exaggerated but if you go down to court, and you might like to go down to the  hall or somewhere locally, you'll actually find that there are advocates who do what  did deliberately wrong and what  did deliberately wrong.
Perhaps not quite as exaggerated but v very similar.
And wh because one of the things that they were deliberately doing as if they were unprepared.
Sorry if some of you are still a bit cold but I thought the heater had been turned on, but it doesn't seem to be doing anything.
Erm, if you're prepared you haven't got to fumble with your notes, the ums and aahs are less, the facts flow, you call your client the right name, and you can concentrate on the presentation.
The one that, when y if you look at those, look at, don't just concentrate on the ones which are right, concentrate on the ones that were wrong too and say, why are they wrong?
Yeah, they're amusing and those sort of things and obviously they're deliberately wrong, but have a look and see why, what is it because they do contain errors that are commonly made day after day in courts.
Right, if you could have a look for a moment at your criteria guide.
Let's just look at what we're expected to do.
This is what we'll use at every stage of the advocacy exercises.
It'll be used for the bail, it'll be used for the mitigation, and it will be used for your assessment.
Dirty word, assessment, but we'll come back to that in a minute.
Right.
A few typing errors, please ignore those.
I haven I haven't developed a new word at number six, that is overall presents her argument in a confident and persuasive manner.
Right, let's just think about these.
Selects relevant facts.
So you select from the information you're given the facts that are relevant to the application you're making that day, whether it be bail or whether it be a plea in mitigation.
What's relevant to your application?
What are you asking the court to do?
What are you trying to persuade them to do?
If it's bail, you're trying to get your client released, possibly with conditions.
If it's plea in mitigation, you're tr remember your client has been convicted at that point.
I've had many students who've done this in front of me who've started off by saying, my client is not a criminal.
He's just been convicted.
So, erm, remember what it is you're trying to achieve.
With plea in mitigation, you're trying to minimize the sentence, within realistic boundaries.
Argument is concise and to the point.
One of the other things about those two that were wrong was that they rambled, they were all over the place, there was no conciseness, no clarity to them.
Main points are  effective.
Again, those two that were wrong were all over the place and not an effective sequence.
Maintains good eye contact.
Both the ones where they did it right, they maintained good eye contact with the person they were trying to persuade.
They didn't stare at them but had good eye contact.
You're doing it wrong if you're not looking at the person that you're trying to persuade.
Speaks clearly.
You can do all this beautifully, but if you can't be heard it's a waste of time.
It doesn't mean you've got to, should, doesn't mean you've got to have a loud voice, it just means you've got to speak, speak clearly and slowly enough to be clear.
You know yourself whether you tend to go quickly or whatever.
Practise these things.
Actually in the next few days stand up at home, speak it, say it, record it if you want to.
See what you sound like.
But speak, when you start to speak, if you know that when you're nervous that you will ramble on, you'll go quickly, remember that, so that as you start remember to slow down.
If you can't slow down, then deliberately pause so that the person who's listening to you has an opportunity to mentally catch up on what you're saying.
So if your voice is quick, make sure you put in pauses, or find some other method of coping with it in that way.
Overall is confident and persuasive.
You can be as nervous as anything inside, if what you're saying comes over confidently and persuasively, that's what matters.
So good preparation.
All advocates.
The one thing that really marks them out is good preparation, so that when they stand up in court they haven't got to think much about the content cos it's at their finger tips, they know it, they know Mrs Brown's age, they know how many children she's got, they haven't got to think about it.
They just concentrate on presenting that information.
Right, let's summarize where we've got to, and what you're going to be doing.
When you're preparing, prepare well.
The relevant law you will need to know, and the relevant law you will find in the manual you've got, you won't need to look anywhere other than the manuals, it's all going to be in there.
So you won't need to be searching through anywhere else.
Remember, when you're given your fact scenarios, to take out of those scenarios the information that you think is relevant and structure it.
If you simply regurgitate word for word what's in the fact scenario, that's not going to be persuasive.
You need to structure it in a way that fits in with the argument that you're go the line of argument you're going to be putting before the magistrate.
And develop a persuasive argument.
Practise out loud.
Practise it standing up.
Practise in front of a mirror.
But if you practise it sitting down, your voice'll be very different, the speed of your voice will be different, and if you don't practise it out loud you won't be able to get any idea of whether it's going to take three minutes or not.
The only way to really gauge how long a pr presentation will take when you say it out loud, is to practise it out loud.
Because you will be kept strictly to time.
You've got three minutes, a few seconds over, and then you'll be asked to stop.
It can be shorter than three minutes.
Don't worry if it's shorter.
Most people, when they practise out loud, speak more slowly.
They're in a relaxed situation in their own home.
Stand them up in front of somebody, tutor, and they'll speak more quickly.
If you're three minutes at home, then you're fine, most likely that will mean you're up slightly under the three minutes when you do it before your tutor.
But that's the way to get your guide, that's the way to practise.
And concentrate on those points that are in the advocacy criteria guide in making your preparations.
You'll all be given the instructions for the small group sessions for bail today.
If you've got any questions, you can ask your tutor then, or you can come and see me.
Are there any questions at this stage?
Any points that you, you immediately know you want to ask?
No.
Right.
Thank you all very much.

additional responsibility.
We look forward very much to his succession to the Chair, and we wish him very well and I know that he can count on the full support of all the honorary officers, and all of you as members of the Council as he takes on these new responsibilities.
So, I gather that Jeffrey would like to say a word or two, and at this stage, and if he would he would be welcome to do so, meanwhile er, as I've said, I hope you will join me in wishing er, the Bishop god speed, and in wishing Jeffrey  very well for the future.
Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, it isn't that I would like to say a word, it is that  told me to say a word, and I realise I am starting off in the right way.
May I say how deeply honoured I am to be invited to chair N C V O. I am acutely conscious with a degree of trepidation and indeed humility, that I face a huge challenge in following in Alan's footsteps.
You would anyhow not expect on this occasion any words of wisdom from me, indeed my wife and four daughters would doubtless tell you that you should never expect words of wisdom from me.
So may I simply say briefly, but nonetheless with emphasis and sincerity two things.
First that I believe the causes you serve are vital to the welfare and happiness of people in this country, and that they will become more so in future.
And secondly, that I will do my utmost to serve you and those causes to the best of my ability.
Very well, I'll, let's just then move on to resolution number thr ,thr , three as printed on your order paper.
I don't propose to go right er, through it.
I once chaired at, somebody may remember a sort of constitutional commission as it was grandly called, which we went through all these things with a tooth-comb in order to try to get the composition of the executive committee er, right and appropriate for er, this current time.
So let me confine myself simply to inviting erm, Penny , to propose the resolution.
Those are mine, my, my, my  You can come to this one if you will.
It gives me pleasure to move the adoption of resolution three, that the executive committee be constituted as on page two of the resolution paper to consist of not more than thirty two members, and that those people listed on page two, be elected members of the executive committee.
I'd also like to add a great thanks to the retiring executive committee for all the hard work that they've done during the past year.
Thanks.
And Paula , if she will to second the resolution.
I'm happy to commend all these names to the meeting and to second the resolution.
Is er, are there any comments or questions that any member of the Council would wish to put forward before we vote on this resolution?
Alright, then er, it has been proposed and seconded, and er, those in favour?
And those against?
Very well, that is carried certainly, nem con, quite possibly unanimous although it's rather hard to see into the far corners.
Erm, so we come to special resolution number one, which is as set out on your order paper, which is to do with the replacement of a, er, clause in our Memorandum of Association, and I will invite Jeffrey  to move it.
Thank you.
There are er, two special resolutions this year and they both relate to our investment powers.
Erm, we set up an investment panel of the erm, the executive committee to specifically to look in detail at our investment policy, in the light of resolution four at the nineteen eighty-seven A G M. We've met with our investment advisors on several occasions, and we have considered our in , investment policy in some detail.
We propose to establish a, an investment charter which will set out our policy and in particular balance the duties of us as trustees.
Our duty is to secure the best return we possibly can or on, on our investments and yet at the same time to have regard to the aims and objectives of the Council itself.
We've made some progress towards establishing the criteria which we should set out in our policy, and the mechanisms needed to control that policy.
However, we have I'm sorry to say, identified two constraints in our powers, and we cannot make further progress until these constraints have been removed.
We need to deal with these constraints by special resolutions which will amend our Memorandum of Association.
The first constraint relates to the range of investments which are available to us as trustees.
At present we're limited by the powers available under the Trustee Investment Acts nineteen sixty-one, this sets out the amounts which we may invest in narrow and wide ranges of investment.
In general terms the narrow range of investments are fairly, very safe and secure investments, but they are ones which are less likely to secure higher returns but of course also, less likely to secure risks of low returns.
The wider range is erm, what might be termed more speculative investments, but there are many shares available within the wider range which are in fact extremely sound and safe investments, and the sort which we as trustees would wish to invest in.
Now at, at the moment we have to keep fifty percent of our investments in the narrow range and we may place fifty percent in the wider range.
I have to say though, that when we the Council advise other charities on the investment powers that they should take when they're established and when they draft their Memorandum of Association, erm, we advise them to take wider powers er, than these, and we advise them that they should not seek to constrain themselves by the Trustee Investment Act nineteen sixty-one, as our own flexibility is constrained.
The, the result of this, this constraint on us is that it reduces our opportunity to secure the best returns available.
There are better returns available from wider range investments than from narrow range investments, and better returns without unnecessarily increasing our risks.
Secondly the, the constraint reduces the opportunity that we have to pursue the ethical investment policies which will have regard to the aims and objectives of the Council as a whole, and then lastly there is the matter of practicality.
Erm, since the wider range investments on the whole tend to increase in value more rapidly than the narrower range investments, then as the investments in the normal course of management are bought and sold, the proportion which you have invested in the wider range tends to increase faster than the proportion that you have invested in the narrower range.
We therefore would need to do some quite careful accounting in order to make sure that we didn't contravene that erm, the, the requirement of the Trustee Investment Act in the future.
So we wish therefore to remove this first constraint on our powers and I'd emphasise again that it is, is our intention to use, it's not our intention to use the wider powers to increase the risks, it's simply to improve er, our ability to gain the best returns and satisfy the objectives of the Council.
The trustees will still be bound by a duty to act prudently and in the best interests of the Council and its members.
I therefore move the first special resolution.
Thank you, is erm, David  here?
I've rather doubt that he might not be  and, and then Bert er, has very kindly said that he would erm, stand in for him to second this resolution.
I formally second the resolution, Chairman.
Thank you.
Erm, well I think that er,the report of these er, resolutions and er, of this resolution, and er, so er, but there may be questions or comments on it, so  no alright, then er, let me put it to you.
That is, special resolution number one, on your order paper be approved.
Those in favour?
Those agin?
None.
Thank you.
Would you like then to go on, erm, Jeffrey, to special resolution number two?
It's a kind of accompanying resolution to the one that you have just passed.
Thank you.
The trustees in acting prudently on investments need to take advice, and, and we have done so for many years, and our investment advisors are currently Schroder Investment Management Limited.
Under the Financial Services Act, a number of provisions have been passed to protect investors, erm, and N C V O, as an investor also comes under the protection of the Financial Services Act.
One, one particular requirement of the Act is that there should be a management agreement between the investors and the investment advisors.
This management agreement is to formally set out the relationship between them to establish the investment policies to be pursued, the powers of the trustees or the investors, and the investment advisors, to establish clearly the fees and charges which are to be made by the advisors and the basis on which they will be made.
To establish how the advisors shall report on their activities to the investors, and to set out any other conditions which the investors may wish to establish.
The Financial Services Act also requires for a body such N C V O that their Memorandum of Association should actually include an explicit power to use investment advisors.
This second special resolution is designed to enable us to comply with that requirement of the Financial Services Act.
There are however, a number of safeguards in that resolution.
In particular the resolution requires that we the trustees, should establish clear policy guidelines, and the investment panel I hope, will very shortly be able to do that.
Secondly it requires that all transactions made on our behalf shall be reported promptly, I, I would emphasise that this is already the practice the investment tr , er, transactions are already reported to our Finance Department and trustees of course, must sign the necessary transfer forms.
Thirdly there is a power for the trustees to revoke or amend the agreement at any time.
And then lastly there is an obligation on us to review at least annually, the position of our advisors.
As you know we meet with our advisors, at least twice a year, and we effectively review that erm, that agreement at those six month points.
But we may also in the future, wish to review it more formally and consider what other, er, arrangements we might make.
So I would emphasise then, again, that the resolution is intended to enable the present position to continue, and to enable your trustees to manage the funds effectively in setting the policy and benefiting from the advice which is available.
I therefore move the second special resolution.
Thank you Jeffrey.
Perhaps Mr. Spencer would oblige again, erm, by seconding this resolution.
I formally second the resolution, Chairman.
Right, thank you.
Erm, now any comments or que , or questions or whatever er, on this resolution?
Resolution number, special resolution two, as printed on your order papers?
just to say
I was afraid that everyone had lost their voices, er, it's good to have a, a question.
Yes, this is a question on the er, resolution two, item five.
It talks about the Council remaining liable.
Er, is the Council or is it the trustees remain liable, I'm unclear on that point?
Perhaps Jeffrey would like to deal with that, or Adrian.
I think er, Joe, it might be more appropriate perhaps if our legal advisor tells us of the niceties of the clause which he drafted.
Right, Adrian .
Gentlemen,this is a clause based on a provision recommended by the Charity Commission.
The answer here is a very technical one, but the trustees of an organisation of this kind are of course the, the executive committee.
They're the directors in, in company law, but they're the executive committee names in the Memorandum of Association.
They're also the charity trustees, and I think it would be true to say that in the very final analysis they are the people who are ultimately responsible.
Does that erm, meet your point?
Yes, I believe that actually it should be the responsibility of the officers of an association to take the responsibility.
They are reported to, they define the policy, and I don't believe that it's the intention of the executive committee to come to this meeting every time there's a change of investment policy.
I don't believe that would be the practice, and therefore I believe the executive committee as the trustees and custodians on our behalf, in this matter, should take the responsibility, and I would have preferred the trustees rather than the Council to have been stated at that point.
Jeffrey, Adrian.
If, if as I understand it, it's a matter of law, and the practice will be much as just suggested, is that a correct er, interpretation.
So I think your point is in effect met, but we have to observe very properly the requirements of the law.
Right, erm, any other comments or suggestions on special resolution number two?
Very well, may I put it to you that this special resolution be adopted.
Those in favour?and those against?
Thank you er, and that is passed.
Now we have er, erm, reached the conclusion of the formal part of the, this Annual General Meeting.
At the next session, will be chaired by Kay , and er, she will tell us what she is about as it were, erm, in a moment.
Before that, there are one or two other things I should like to do, er, in particular to thank Tunstall Telecom for their spart , part sponsorship of this meeting.
They're very much involved with networked community care, to use their own phrase, and those of you who want to know more about them, they've got a stall outside, and er, their wares so to say, are set out for you to see.
Erm, otherwise it remains only to say thank you very much for coming, I hope you've found the experience helpful.
I'm grateful to you for your readiness to fall in with the proposals made, and er, I have enjoyed the opportunity to chair this A G M. The meeting is now concluded.
It is for people properly funded by a democratic enabling local state and under con , the control of those who have no pecuniary interest in the development of care.
Voluntary organisations er, can do this and are in the best place to undertake this.
Of course we must be cautious about taking on difficult tasks as if to prove our social virility.
This was put well by Diana , and her colleagues in a Policy Studies Institute report a couple of years ago.
Voluntary organisation they said, in their desire for recognition and funds, sometimes seem all too willing to conspire with the statutory sector on the basis that they can do the impossible, but miracles take a little longer.
Voluntary organisations, as Diana  and her colleagues said, should have the confidence to suggest that although under the right conditions and with the right resources, er, they may be able to do the impossible, miracles are not on offer.
The communitarian state would provide those resources to in ,in , to do what perhaps has been traditionally seen as the impossible, but it will require extensive support.
Health authorities and local authorities must be encouraged to come to see the necessity of providing local umbrella groups such as Councils for Voluntary Service, with grant aid to develop industrial relations expertise, er, marketing help, P R help, and so on.
If not voluntary organisations may be able to obtain some of those from the private sector if they know where to look.
Perhaps C V S's can act as er, brokers for relevant professional services.
But the important thing is that the voluntary sector must hijack the trends from the old statism to the new individualism, and steer it into a better way.
We've got to be pro-active about this, it's no good simply sitting back and waiting for whatever government is in power, to impose certain regulations, certain restrictions, certain proposals.
From being mainly voluntarily established we must see the development of new catalysed organisations meeting specific needs.
Statutory agencies will have to use a judicious mixture of grant and contract to help set up new organisations run by the community for the community, to create the range and choice required by consumers.
The voluntary sector I believe must accept those developments whilst at the same time, demanding effective regulation and monitoring to create a managed community market.
Although some of the worst fears of those who dislike the market mentality can be discarded there is no doubt that complete freedom of competition particularly in social care, will not work.
This strategy requires a major change in the way voluntary organisations perceive themselves, and the way local and central government perceives the community.
Some of the trends are already there, others need to be encouraged.
None of it will be easy.
The voluntary sector though, has a greater role to play now than ever before, both as advocate and service provider.
They will need extensive support from N C V O and other groups, er, to be able to undertake that task.
If central and local government are serious in their intent to create choice and consumerism, what I would call welfare consumerism in health and social care, then they must also take seriously the need to support voluntary organisations trying to meet those aspirations.
By and large I do not believe that people want for profit organisations running human service delivery.
Indeed I don't believe the private sector can get into the community in the way that er, not for profit, communitarian organisations can.
What we need is to get the best of both worlds, an enhanced and more competent community providing care, support and help to individuals efficiently but without dumping disadvantaged people onto unsupported relatives.
There is of course, an opportunity to use money currently locked up in large institutions and statutory organisations more productively through local effort.
That is the challenge for local government.
The current government must recognise that it cannot continue to go down the line of an individualist anxiety- ridden state, of competitive individuals where the poor and disabled are left to starve on city streets.
On the other hand, Labour and other opposition parties, cannot just reassert the old statist notions about public funding of public production.
Whichever of the two main parties forms the government of the early nineteen nineties, it will have to create a greater consensus in health and social care as well as other areas of our national life.
Not only that, but a fuller consensus morality is also required.
The voluntary sector is probably the only vehicle by which that dialogue can take place.
I believe the voluntary sector is on the brink of massive change, there will be those who cannot cope, and will harp back to the old authoritarian days of small grants and sherry with the Chair of Social Services.
There will be those who just cannot get into gear, who will watch the private sector take over many of the functions which have been, previously been run by local government.
But there will be those who will grab the trends and steer them into a new direction.
The scope for the voluntary sector and not for profit activity in the nineteen nineties is immense, it will not be expansion just for its own sake, but principled entrepreneurial activity aimed to make the most of opportunities on behalf of the community.
Being of the community can assist in empowering the community to provide better services and support for disadvantaged and disabled people.
Er, at the same time, the voluntary sector can assist in developing a new shared morality.
A highest common factor of our collective conscience.
Nothing less will do.
Thank you.
Well I'm not sure how you follow that, exciting challenges, persuasive ideas, sound strategic proposals for the future, not to mention a word with which not all of us may be entirely familiar, and I include myself among them, communitarian.
Er, we have set questions on the agenda, and Chris, I think we've time?
Yes, just for a few questions if you've gathered your thoughts together.
There's so much in what Chris has said is there not, that we, I'm so pleased that your address is going to be published because I feel that it's something we shall want to have and to take back to our organisations.
So would anyone like to ask a question of Chris?
Would you like to say who you represent please.
My name's Carolyn  and I'm for Director for a group exploring parenthood.
I suppose my first experience is one of immense frustration, because I think this is very important document that you bring to us, but the speed and the sound being, the loud sound of delivery made it very difficult to stay with the, the concept and ideas.
So I would first urge that we get that paper out to us as soon as possible.
Thank you, Chris would you like to comment.
Yes, first of all er, is this, this is er, on.
I'm, I'm sorry if it was to difficult to, to follow, either because of the microphones or
It was so loud
Was it, I am sorry.
Erm, also I, I wanted to try and cover the main points and it's very difficult with a subject like that to, to only give you part of the, the story otherwise people would immediately say, well, yes, but you haven't thought about this or that.
I'm quite sure you'll still say that, but erm, because it is er, it's in a sense, it's complex.
I, I think to erm, very briefly to answer your point, erm, I believe that the, the quotes contract culture which is around at the moment, has missed out a major component which is concerned with community development and community enhancement.
Erm, and I, I, I think that's very, very important.
There's this tendency to suggest that there are these providers out there, that will provide.
That health authorities and local authorities can simply tender and contract with the people there, and they're not there.
Or if they are there, they're existing voluntary organisations which may be already very loaded, who've got a lot of work to do, to get into a negotiating framework and so on, so the first the thing I'd say in answer to you is that, N C V O and other must put a tremendous pressure on government and local authorities to fund the community development aspect of the pluralistic society which er, the current government seems to want.
Erm, secondly, we will only be able to do that effectively and this is the point you were making about say, erm, school governors and so on, if people really feel they do have some genuine power, locally, it must be about enabling and empowering local groups to have power and take part within their community.
Because so many of the people who, so many people at the moment feel I think that they, they have very little real influence, and that's why people don't turn up, it's why people don't vote for local government.
Erm, and what I'm interested in is how we can through local democratic channels create true empowerment of the community.
A community which is then in a position to provide care and support within the community properly funded by local government, so it becomes a symbiosis.
But it does require that the local er, er, organisations feel genuinely empowered, and that's a major challenge for local government.
Thank you very much, I'm sure there's a debate within that, that we can all continue, and I hope we will continue because it's so important.
Er, Ray, Sir Ray.
Whenever I hear Chris I'm illumined for three quarters of the time, and dazzled for the other quarter.
Erm, could I take a couple of points.
Erm, first the unimportant one is semantic.
The problem about the word communitarianism is that the French have pinched it.
It means being a good member of the community in Europe, so I don't think that horse is going to run.
But if what it means is to combine a sense of community, a sense of society, a sense of inter-dependent provision and collaboration in doing it and in providing true welfare con , consumerism, the government have chosen the word partnership.
Now I think it's in Alice in Wonderland, that it is said that words mean what I intend them to mean.
Can't we build on the word partnership and make it mean what you want.
I think it's the nearest we'll get to it, and it's in the White Paper and it can be used in exactly the sense that I gather you would like it to be used, in the discussions we have on the results of the scrutiny, and that would be the starting point there.
The second point is being totally in favour of you're selling your book.
Do you in it go a little further in exploring the criteria which should govern who does what?
Starting one supposes with who does what best, to get away from the sense of the government imposing a ratchet, on expenditure.
That's perhaps enough.
Yes, thank you.
Erm,Two points, the, the first on partnership.
I, I don't believe, I don't want to impose a particular word, and if communitarianism is a difficulty then I, I accept that.
Er, it was the best word that I felt I could use at this time, it may be that a, if a debate ensues from this, or from er, other er, writings about, of myself and other people over this next few months, that a term will emerge that people feel happy with, but certainly we are talking about community partnership.
We are talking about erm, enabling and empowerment and the enhancement of community, and I think those are the terms which really matter.
How, erm, er, and, and I think as you're saying what word we put round that, almost doesn't matter as long as it's understood to mean that, erm, that, that range of, of concepts and requirements.
In relation to your second question about criteria, er, I do say something about that, I do try to erm, tease that out to some extent, but it is of course, a difficult one.
Erm, in many ways, one could say that the community or community organisations, local organisations are capable of running most things, erm, indeed they did at once, and some of those functions were taken over by the central or local state.
If we go back forty, forty five years social work, erm, housing was all provided by voluntary agencies or private agencies, and not necessarily by the state.
Erm, and so, but we do need to do that, and I believe the work that you have been doing erm, I don't know when that's to be published, er, but will I'm sure assist us in developing the criteria which will help voluntary organisations to decide what they properly should be doing.
I think perhaps the most important thing is that voluntary agencies should do what they believe is right, and not allow their own objectives to be distorted, simply because a, of particular flavours, which is why I'm saying let us grab the agenda and write the agenda, rather than have the agenda set for us by other people.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
I think er, we just have er, time for one very brief question if you would please.
I think,yes.
Mervyn , representing Help the Aged, or at least representing myself in responding to Chris Heginbotham's address, but er, here for Help the Aged today.
Can I identify with the objective of communitarianism, can I also share your concept that the voluntary sector is the locus within which that sort of discussion should be and can be taking place.
But can I suggest it's probably a lot more difficult to get there than you were describing even with the various points that you were raising in your address this morning, because I wonder if it is fair for all of us, to accept the immediate linkage between the voluntary sector whatever we actually mean by that, and good community institutions, community thinking, community awareness.
It seems to me that an awful lot of the voluntary sector does come from very much the individualist side of the equation which you were laying out in front of us Chris.
You probably remember, erm, a stimulating little book published last year by Frank  on the Impulse to Philanthropy, where certainly in his nineteenth century analysis of the growth of philanthropy, he saw to main things, evangelicalism, which er, meant that people were going out looking for converts, and therefore doing good social work on the way, and the growth of the women's movement, in the sense that women otherwise unemployed were looking for a new area of activity to get into.
Both of those strands are very much part of volunteering, they're very much linked with the concept of the active citizen, and there are still lots of voluntary organisations that form and which continue, and which are existing today, which stem entirely from people's desire to go out there and do something, in their own way.
So that is a very individual strand.
Another strand of our present voluntary sector are the self-help groups which of course are also going to be extremely individual, and one third point, Madam Chairman, the development of not for profit companies and things like that could also have a very individual strand to them as well since they sound a little bit like our existing small business sector under a community name.
Thank you.
I don't think I'd quite greet that as brief question, but thank you to your contribution to the discussion.
Chris would you like to respond quite briefly.
Yes, I can probably give you a brief answer, because er, in that you've raised a whole host of other things, erm, which erm, er, we need to, we need to think about and, and debate, and I hope we'll have further occasions to do so.
Er, I just the main point.
I do think there are problems and difficulties, I don't think it will be easy, not least because we don't have a shared morality and a shared consensus, on the objectives for the voluntary sector, but it is a set of concerns which we must address, er, and I believe that if, if I've done nothing else today, I've kicked off a debate, or I've contributed to a debate which was already rolling, erm, and that we must address those difficulties, and try and find ways through them, because there are opportunities as well as threats in the current situation and I believe we have to look at all of those er, so that we can move into the nineteen nineties which I believe will be a very exciting period for the voluntary sector, and one which the voluntary sector should er, see as exciting, grab the opportunities and move forward.
Thank you very much Chris.
I think erm, the address we have just heard is a most valuable contribution to the series of the Sir George  lectures, and I'm delighted that you were available and you were willing to do this.
I think all the many ideas which have been proposed, the, the challenging thoughts, they will make a most enormous contribution to the discussions which we all will be having, and I think, not only ourselves in the voluntary sector, but those elsewhere also.
Because as you so rightly say, we are part of that partnership of that er, movement forward, but there are other partners too, and we want to take them forward with us.
So thank you very much indeed for your contribution, I think we've all found this a most interesting finish to the A G M of the N C V O.
Are there any announcements about lunch and things like that?
No
Oh,lu , lunch is served outs , outside, and erm, you all have had details of your special interest meetings, both the time and location, please make sure you check those on the notice board outside.
Thank you.

Mhm.
Erm.
So erm when did you live in the flats?
Erm I lived in the flats from Christmas eighty three till September eighty five.
Mhm.
And erm in addition you've you're a social worker.
I am a social worker.
And you and you've erm through through your work as a social worker, you've had some contact with people in the flats.
That's right.
I've erm contacted them through living there and working with them as well.
Mhm.
And in addition to that, am I right in saying, for thirty years you've been a nun?
I've been a nun for thirty years 
Mhm.
yes.
Erm  whereabouts whereabouts erm were you born?
I was born in Scotland.
In Scotland, what part?
In the West of Scotland, just between Edinburgh and Glasgow.
Yes and erm I came down here erm just at the time I was becoming a nun thirty thirty odd years ago.
So have you got have you got any brothers and sisters?
I have one erm a sister and one brother, both married with families in Scotland still.
So I still go back.
To visit them.
What about erm the occupation of you parents?
Er well my my mother is a cook and 
mhm.
my father is a mi sorry he wasn't a miner.
He was a miner for a very short time.
erm but then he he couldn't take and he moved into the steel works.
So he he's worked in steel work for a long time.
Till he retired.
What kind of  education had  when did you when did you leave sc 
Erm yeah, I attended the grammar school
Yeah.
in Scotland and erm it was called the senior secondary then.
And erm I er did my Scottish Higher Leaving Certificate.
And erm then after erm I had done my training as nun, I did teacher training, and I taught  for twenty years, before becoming a social worker.
How what kind of a Prior to living on the flats, erm what kind of accommodation have you lived in?
Erm well  I I've lived always in sort of traditional convents, which are generally
Mhm.
Erm sort of detached houses or er rather big properties somewhere or other.
Erm but prior to coming to er live in the flats, I lived on Road in , erm next door to a mother and baby home.
And I worked in the mother and baby home.
So that was just like an ordinary 
Mhm.
detached house on the the main road in .
So how how does the accommodation erm you've been in prior to flats, contrast with erm living on the flats?
Erm it was a  a complete contrast.
Erm it couldn't be more different actually.
Er you know living er so close to neighbours and people you know in so it tended to be, in other places where I've lived, that you didn't see people people very often, at least you didn't speak to your close neighbours very often, and erm in the flats, you know I found that they were right in the midst of it.
Okay.
What was your motivation behind living in the flats?
The I know you  
Erm well it it really stemmed out of my work in the mother and baby 
Yes.
home.
Er several of the girls who had been in the mother and baby home, were housed in the flats.
And we had to help them to move and you know help them to move their things and  really I saw the kind of difficulties the girls would be living under.
And I felt that they did need some kind of ongoing support.
And also I used to notice that there were quite a lot of em empty window, you know, in the flats, and erm you know I just got a feeling that this was really where I I found that I would be able to work, or that I wanted to work.
So from there I I mentioned it to our provincial who's the i the one who's in charge of us all in this er area.
And erm that I would like to live in the flats, and she just said, Why don't you?
And erm I asked around to see if anyone else was interested in doing the same kind of thing.
And another sister said she would be happy to join me in that.
And so I approached erm Mr  at  Street.
But I I wrote in and I was asked to see Mr .
And erm you know and I had a letter then from Mr , saying that they would consider us for a place, in the flats.
And erm after about six six or eight months, we were given a place off  Walk.
Having lived there f for a few years, erm how did it contrast with what you actually expected?
How did it with your original expectations?
Well I think having erm had some contact
Yes.
in the flats 
Mhm.
and also when girls moved in I would visit them in the flats 
Yes.
and erm they came back and visited the mother and baby home too.
So I knew the kind of complaints they had about the flats.
And erm and so I I I was familiar with the kind of things erm that we expected.
And well you know things like the noise of the blues parties and things like that were a great annoyance.
I came in knowing that that was going to happen, so erm yo I think also I had the the freedom that I had chosen to live there, and I think that made erm the difference.
I put up with with it then, knowing that I had chosen it.
And erm also but I I was glad to experience the kind of things that people who were living in the flats without choice, had to experience.
Mhm.
Am I right in saying that one of one of your motivations behind living in the flats was the fact that erm the contact with people on on the flats, and you felt erm that it would help you erm 
That's right.
if you actually went through the experience that they themselves were  
That's right.
It would help me and er it would give me a greater understanding.
Mhm.
Erm having actually experience that way of you know having to live.
And that was and that was something that was achieved,ha having lived there a few years, you think  
Well I don't think it was achieved, because I mean it's there's always
Yeah.
something I mean we moved out of the flats, partly because the flats were coming down,
Yeah.
and partly because I had to have an operation which meant that it wouldn't be easy for me to live in the flats any longer.
And it just seemed that that was the time to give up the tenancy.
But I would hope, I mean it has given me the the wish to go on living in a similar kind of situation.
So a actually living on the flats, erm did that ha did that have any impact for your actual life itself compared to other places you've lived 
Yes it erm it certainly did.
Erm i because the people that w we were we near to the people and more accessible to them ,
Yeah.
I think they felt happier in coming to visit us.
And I certainly think that they felt more comfortable coming to our flat, than they would have felt coming to a big private house somewhere 
Mhm.
or other.
And in that way I felt that I was closer to people.
Mhm.
So I'm right in saying, you had an open house in which people could
That's right .
tenants in the flats could come in and
Yes er we just 
talk 
Yeah er you know, we had an understanding that if erm because there were times when we wanted to just have some time together, or to pray together, and erm you know people who did come in and out to the flats, we erm told them that if th we were in and we didn't answer the door, it was actually because we were either doing something that we couldn't come.
And er the people just accepted that, and they didn't keep them from coming, because at most of the time, er the 
Mhm.
house would be open, even late at night or erm you know, early in the morning if necessary, people could come.
Mhm.
How many people did you in your er in your time on the flats, how many people do you think, have visited at some time?
Oh.
Aye.
Yeah aye.
Er we never kept account of of anything but 
I mean some evenings it would be quite quiet and maybe just the next-door neighbour 
Yeah.
would be in or erm you know, maybe in the course of the evening or just the afternoon, we'd have had two or three people called.
I remember one evening we went up to bed, and my head was just spinning because we'd had about ten ten people had come in, some of them overlapping and some had you know but I'd say at one stage we had about seven people in the flat together.
Erm and although it was erm you know, it was good and the people themselves enjoyed talking to each other as well, it was a bit tiring  at the end of the day.
But er y you know that that kind of thing, erm we always hoped and felt was good.
Mhm.
What happened say on Sundays and erm and during religious holidays, did you get
Well on Sundays I mean we went to to church in the 
Church yeah.
the local church.
And erm  it was just the same as any other day.
Mhm.
Occasionally we had to go away to one of our other convents for meetings.
But if we were there it was just the same.
Erm but the door would be open for anybody who 
Mhm.
wanted to come.
And what k what kind of response did you have erm from from erm tenants of the flats, I mean how how did you were people people generally friendly.
They w Oh yes.
Erm you know any anyone we met and and spoke to I think some people held us in some kind of suspicion, but a lot of people were glad er to have the er you know have the company and erm that were were available to them.
I thi I mean there were quite a number of people, I would say on the flats that we didn't make contact with at all.
Mhm.
I don't th I think when we spoke last week, erm referred to the fact that er  ethnic minorities erm   
That's right.
Especially erm among the the the er the young Rastafarians.
Now with the older West Indian people we would have you know, a passing sort of conversations and I know a couple of them came to help to get me to help them to fill in D H S S forms and things like that.
Erm or I mean you know for advice about what they could do about D H S S.
They came to the house to do that.
But with the younger erm West Indians I didn't feel that we we we just didn't seem to be able to find an approach.
And er part of it I think was because during the daytime you didn't see them very much, and at nighttime y you know they they would be obviously around erm going to blues parties and things like that.
But it just didn't seem to be a time when you could er get an entry.
You know so it was something that erm I didn't really feel that we did .
Mhm.
What do f er Moving on to look at the image that the flats have, erm  bad publicity the flats 
Mm.
have had in the media.
Erm how fair do you think it is, the actual th the actual coverage of the flats?
Well I certainly didn't find it any more dangerous living in the flats, than I would have found living in .
And I didn't feel any more afraid, walking into the flats, than I would have felt walking on the road at night you know in in  where I'd been before.
Erm also do you know like, people would say things like, Oh you must be very brave living in the flats.
We didn't feel brave at all it was just, we lived there and we didn't feel under any kind of threat.
And in fact, one night we'd gone to bed and left the key in the door, and the door unlocked, the key on the outside.
And we came down in the morning as safe as we would have been anywhere.
Erm I know there had been occasion when we had people sleeping on the the stairway and you know, I think occasionally  and but I think sometimes that was maybe somebody got home from a blues party, and had too much to drink or something, and they came into the warm, the heat w from the the downstairs flat, er k comes up on the stairwell, and I know there was someone sleeping there.
Erm but I certainly never felt under any threat or any danger from people in the flats.
Mhm.
So you so really erm you'd say that the actual image of the flats, in the press and the media in general,somewhat unfair.
Yes.
Yes erm well certainly from my own experience er I I don't really think that erm there was as much crime or break-ins or danger as there seemed to be portrayed in the
Mhm.
the media.
Mhm.
What having lived on the flats, erm what would you put forward as being some the good points of living there?
What what were the  Yeah the good the good points for you personally, yeah .
Do you mean the good points for me personally?
Yeah.
Well
What did you find best about living there.
Er well I think the experience that I gained of the the kind of erm living situation erm because I you know  we underwent the same kind of difficulties.
Erm e even like things like emptying the bins.
Er I know there were complaints that people used to throw rubbish out of the windows.
Well it did take a bit of organization to get yourself to the end of the walk, erm with your your weekly rubbish or your daily rubbish, to get that put away.
Er and you know to really see what kind of erm design, what design can do to the actual living situation.
Erm I think too, the closeness to erm our neighbours and to to the people was a very good experience.
And also just the the whole erm general feeling of being with the people in the flats.
And I I think I had great admiration for the er in particular for the the woman who was the erm president of the tenants association.
I think she did a marvellous job in really getting public attention to the situation and to the difficulties of the flats.
Mhm.
And er to the community worker who fight them.
Well I really you know, felt that that was a good experience, to see people who were normally classed as powerless, having erm that kind of strength within themselves and and the the power to push on and to face lots of difficulties.
And er you know, to face being knocked back.
Er very often when they were trying to do things.
And to do it without a lot without a lot of support from the a from the people who actually lived in the flats, although they organized things and got it going, and the people living there didn't seem to be motivated to give them the kind of encouragement erm 
Mhm.
Why d why do you think why do you think it is that there wasn't that motivation?
Erm  a lot of it was that people just accepted their situation and didn't think there was any way they were going to get anything different.
I think erm maybe some of them felt it would be a waste of time fighting for it.
Er but obviously you know, the the the courage and the the strength of the the people who did keep it going, erm really has achieved a lot.
They they they've achieved all these people being moved out of the flats.
Mhm.
Which which was only which was the key  
That's right.
That was what they said how to do.
Yeah.
Because they er well the flats just i weren't good enough to be erm you know, structurally, structurally erm renovated or whatever.
Why do you think it is that  erm that the reputation of the flats has been er  I suppose gone off and I mean early on back in the early seventies, erm the flats were quite an attractive place to come to, it wasn't even that easy to get on the flats.
Mm.
And yet, gradually the reputation has gone down, it's become an area in which erm basically people who haven't been able to get housing.
That's right.
been desperate.
How is tha how is that's come about?
Erm well you know, from my experience in the mother and baby home, it seemed that even when girls didn't want to live in  Flats,
Mhm.
if they didn't take the offer of the flat, there was very little else they were going to get.
It was either this flat or nothing.
And they would take it.
And I think that was the situation for a lot of people, that erm if they didn't take the the flat that was offered to them, then they would be virtually erm either still on a long waiting list or homeless.
And er so I think the kind of people who were being housed.
They weren't the kind of people who could get themselves together and organized, it was a more and more the bottom end of the scale and people who were actually erm you know, really powerless in many ways.
Mhm.
And so e with that the the decline of the flats really erm seemed to to go that way.
Yes.
What do you think the impact is on erm you know a community such as Flats when erm you know, when a majority of the people in the flats, are living on the poverty line, or below it?
How does that e affect the community?
You know  
It it seems there's a sort of general air of hopelessness.
Mhm.
Erm and you know and I  the thing that erm used to worry me maybe sometimes, was the acceptance of this as what they should be having.
And that this was the the only way of life they could have.
Erm that probably because they'd been at the bottom so long, er it didn't appear that there was 
Mm.
gonna be much way up.
Mhm.
So say if I said to you, well  if and I said to you, Well what could I do?
What can I do?
This is my situation.
So how would you respond to that.
I said w you know what can I do to change the situation?
Erm well I think erm the first thing I would probably do would be try and explain what your what the rights your rights were, and what sort of benefits you were entitled to.
Because a lot of people didn't even know what they were entitled to.
Or if they were told that they couldn't get so and so, that was it.
So on occasions we could erm help people with that kind of thing.
And I know it's difficult to get people motivated when they've been hit down and hit down so often, er but and I don't think that you could do er any great erm as as we said when we went into the flats, we didn't go in with any big, world shattering ideas of of causing a revolution or you know, of doing er putting on a big project or anything, it was actually to be with the people in their situation and gradually to help improve somehow, if we could.
And you know I think that's all we could do, tackle i ind er with individuals as they came along.
And I know a lot of things too with the girls who came to us, we tried to erm give them er a sense of their worth as a women and not to constantly be oppressed and to accept erm what their boyfriends did or said, and so on.
You know, like erm maybe one of them'd say, Well you know, I'd say, well why don't you leave her with erm your boyfriend for the day, and you have a day off and have a break?
Oh well it's my place to look after you know, the child.
And I'd say well if there are two parents there whether it's whether they're married or whether they're not, the parents are there together, it was shared equally.
We would try to erm put those kind of things forward.
And where ag erm either erm a young mother or even older women who didn't have a husband to support them, then we would try and  we had one woman coming in and saying, she had six children and er her husband had gone off, and her giro hadn't been sorted out.
She wanted to get the children to school and er als she'd no money for things for their breakfast.
Well they did provide her with food, but also I took her up to the phone and showed her how to get in touch with D H S S and explain the situation.
So those kind of things we tried to do.
With your with regard to erm the tenants and and the contact you had with them, erm would you say that you found that people tended to be supportive of each other?
On in in your opinion or not?
Do people  obvi obviously there are virtually everyone at the flats, was in a is in a poor situation
Mm.
financially
Erm
Erm
I would say that erm
I mean how much of a community is there in the flats ?
Oh there there isn't I I wouldn't say there was a big community spirit.
Yeah.
I would say that there are small groups of people who help each .
Yeah.
And erm you know, I I've had on occasion, when there have been a couple of people in our flat, we hadn't either done or said anything.
I you know, one woman came in in distress again, her husband had left her and gone off leaving rent arrears.
At that time, and erm she hadn't known anything about it, because he had looked after the benefit, and she thought he'd been paying the rent.
And she came in with and it was bad enough him going off and leaving her, erm without her finding this as well.
And she came in and she was telling us all about it, and another woman who was there, she was the one who, she went over and sat beside here and said, Oh never mind and, You know we we we'll get it sorted out, and, You're better off  without him .
Er you know sh there were she was saying things and we were just sitting er by her watching her, providing the cups of tea.
Erm but you know there but on occasions when people really needed help, there was usually somebody erm that they could turn to.
But as for er a sort of lively erm community spirit throughout the flats, it wasn't very much in evidence .
Mm.
Just basically small groups that would help each other.
That's right.
Did you have any contact with erm prostitutes who worked from the f from the flats or not?
Erm yeah, we had a nodding acquaintance with quite a few of them, and I think they they were aware of who we were.
Now whether they were suspicious of us because we were nuns, I don't know.
Mhm.
Erm but er w we didn't have erm sort of close contacts
Mhm.
er with them.
I know one or two of them, erm now as well 
Yes.
erm but you know, we didn't actually erm we didn't have them coming
Mhm.
to visit us.
Not fr you kn from our we would  door but it was open 
Mhm.
to them as to anybody else.
Mhm.
You're in your opinion what do you what were what were generally the motivation behind the girls becoming prostitutes, I mean was it
I would say a lot of it is money.
Mhm.
Erm and I know one that I do know now said it's Certainly, she said, it's only for the money I do it, nothing else.
Mm.
So it's a case of the poverty that exists within the flats,
Yes.
erm
I think so.
forcing them onto onto the onto the 
Onto the onto the the the street.
Yeah.
And it was very easy for young erm young women erm who were either just on supplementary benefit or on unemployment, erm to get sucked into that way of living because I mean obviously they wanted nice clothes and things like that.
It was a way of getting money.
Mhm.
look at the actual erm suitability of the flats say, for bringing up children.
Erm how suitable  would you say the flats are for bringing up children?
Well there's certainly not there's not much in the way of er play area for the children.
There was the big concourse, but that was the general er walkway for everyone.
And I know like er there there were lots of things  kids there on roller skates going along, walkways, people were shouting at them or you know trying to clear them off.
Erm and there was just, and there was very little by the way of of grass even and er you know it was towards the end of the life of the flats really, that the play scheme got going.
Erm for the children there.
But and you know, like, for mothers er trying to get buggies and shopping and everything up, they'd either to go up stairs or down stairs.
To get into their flats.
And I think it it caused quite a lot of hassle and difficulty for people with young children.
And then the er the older ones when they were if if they were sitting on the walls outside, the erm deck level flats, again  they were either disturbing the people there or, the people were out shouting at them to get away and sit on their own walls and things like that.
But there was just very little erm convenience and accommodation.
For either young children or teenagers.
Mhm.
What about for the elderly the 
Erm well
How do you e 
Again probably I had kind of personal experience of that, erm when I had the difficulty in walking myself.
Yes.
Erm.
You know, the difficulty of getting up to the flats,i you know I I suffered from arthritis, and er you know i it was quite a strenuous business to get from the ground up to our own flat.
Mhm.
It was very tiring and actually the perspiration just used to be dropping off me by the time I got into the flat.
So you know I think for er people who are elderly or disabled in any way, that was a difficulty too.
Mhm.
And I think perhaps, elderly people were quite afraid erm on the you know, living on the on the deck level.
I know we had one lady erm lived underneath us and she was really very nervous and you know erm hardly came out of her flat at all.
She used to get someone else to go and do her shopping for her.
Because she was afraid.
Mhm.
So did you go and to see her at erm often  
Yes we used to go to see her, and she came up a couple of times.
But even to come out of her flat and come up to us, if we went down and brought her up, she would come.
Was that due to personal experience or was it  
No I think she was probably a nervous kind of person
erm as well.
But you know, when if if a a clutch of erm young people were together, standing outside, she would get very frightened about it.
Wh you know erm  to look at the actual facilities that erm is in the flats, erm  tenants' action group.
You thought they di did a pretty good job.
They they did they did an excellent job, and it was only a small group of people erm
Yeah.
together.
And they got the survey going, and they got enough people to volunteer to go round and interviewing people living in the flats, to get all the information that was required.
Erm they got the the media to come in on it.
And they they really erm took on a mammoth task really.
And er er I think they they did a marvellous job.
Mhm.
Did you have any contact where a lot of times in the flats, with the housing office?
Erm very very little.
Only erm on occasions when we needed repairs done.
Mhm.
When you had to keep pestering them to do it.
And erm you know I know that was one difficulty, that people had a long time to wait for repairs.
Erm as well.
And er I know the housing office always had excuses that they had put the the report in and we were just waiting for someone to do it.
But that could be you kn quite difficult on occasions.
But we didn't have erm very close contacts.
How did you find the the local shops, erm
Oh well I found  was a very cheap place to live .
You found it Yeah.
Yeah.
And erm we did all our shopping in the local area and at the market.
Here I mean  
So you found the market good?
Mhm.
Yes.
We found it we we lived you know very cheaply.
If you what say if you say erm wanted to erm buy clothes would you go
Yeah we we bought clothes in the 
local shops as well.
Whatever  we could get.
Erm a lot of the stuff, you know a lot of my clothes, I always make myself anyway, but I you know what  on the market then.
What about for things  I mean, did you have a telephone yourself?
Y I think you said  
We did have a telephone in the house.
Yeah.
Erm what happened you know, most people in the flats hadn't got, a telephone, say there was an emergency,
Yeah.
erm How much of a problem was that for for tenants living on the flats?
Well we we often had people coming and asking to use our telephone, because either the telephones were erm all out of order, or you could only dial for emergencies.
Erm when we moved into the flat, at first, there was actually a telephone box on the deck.
And just outside our place, but it was often erm out of order.
And I think it w w was quite difficult for people because they'd either have to walk a long way to try and make a telephone call.
If their giro didn't come, erm the only way of of contacting D H S S, was either to go down, or to walk all round until they could find a telephone to do it.
Cos er we quite often had people in, erm asking to use the telephone to ring D H S S which, you know we let them do.
Right, having lived on the er flats, what did you feel about the actual setup, you know, the rooms, the actual flats themselves?
Er well the the a the flat that we lived in,
Mhm.
erm I I found it that it was a very pleasant layout.
The living room was erm quite big.
Er the kitchen wasn't very big but it was good enough, and then the bedrooms upstairs, I certainly wouldn't have liked to live in a downstairs flat.
Er because I think you know the erm the bedrooms on er the bottom floor, er certainly I wouldn't have liked to sleep, erm in a downstairs bedroom like that.
Erm the t er er you know I think the whole erm the layout inside was quite good.
Erm but things like er you could see how people would lose heart with decorating, er because fairly soon after you'd decorated, the ceiling and the wall, erm just below the heaters and above the heater, cos it was almost, well it was almost completely black.
And y erm you know, you would get pieces of grit and black heavy dirt dust coming out onto the furniture.
Erm from the the heating, the heating system.
And so that you know, could be erm very disheartening, when you were trying to keep things erm good.
And then oh, at the end when we knew we were coming out.
We just didn't even bother to to whitewash or to paint the ceiling again.
Erm but the flats themselves could be nice.
I mean we didn't have any damp or anything in erm our flat, but I've been in some of the downstairs ones, where they were very very damp.
The erm you know sort of, the facilities like disposal of rubbish, erm and entrances were a bit difficult I found.
Erm and the the chutes for getting rid of rubbish were just, well they were just erm not practical in any way.
They didn't fit the kind of er bags you put in your d your bin for a start.
Erm you couldn't put erm anything that was you know more than a small pedal bin size.
Bag in and most people had a lot more than that to put down, so consequently they just dumped it if it didn't fit.
So you know there were erm lots of little things like that erm in the layout of the flats which I thought weren't er well they just weren't practical.
Mhm.
Erm in your opinion er how how suitable do you think the flats are for actually bringing up s a family.
Well they're not at all suitable really
Mhm.
erm because, to get in to the flat they'd either to go up stairs from the deck, or downstairs from the deck, and to try and manage that with small children, probably a buggy and shopping as well.
Erm and people wouldn't know what to do, whether to leave the child at the bottom of the stairs and take the the shopping in or to to leave the shopping and have er you know, er think it might go missing or something by the time they take the child and the buggy.
Up or down.
And also there was just no proper play area, for children.
Mhm.
They played on the concourse, and er were always being shouted at by residents who didn't want them er playing just in front of their places.
Er if they wanted to be on their roller skates or even on their bikes, then they were sort of going around the walkways.
Again they were disturbing people living on the, either the deck level or the ground floor flats, because of the noise that that made.
And there was no soft play area, at all for children.
Until the the play centre was actually opened and that was towards the end of the life of the flats really.
Mhm.
Erm you know,
Yeah why Why was it that it was towards the end when things were that there was finally a play centre set up ra rather than actually erm in the earlier days?
Have you any idea or not?
Well I think it was just because of the the people who put the pressure on at that time, perhaps people who'd been in the tenants association before, didn't see that as a priority.
Mhm.
But the er last group of tenants found that that was a big priority and really pushed and worked till they you know to get it .
You mean this is the present group you're talking of ?
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
But er I think it er may have been started with and earlier group I don't know, but I know you know, the certainly the the final stages of the playgroup were with 
Mhm.
this presents tenants' action group.
Mhm.
Having lived on the flats, how do you feel about the fact that they're they're going to be coming down?
Well I'm happy that the flats are  coming down  because I don't think that they're really fit places for people to live.
Mhm.
I think there are much more pleasant ways of people living than than this erm set up that they have.
And erm So I'm glad that the flats are coming down .
Mhm.
In that way.
Mhm.
What was it about the setup that you'd be most critical of?
If you had to the real 
I 
key reasons  for the flats.
I think the the the density 
Yeah.
of people living in a a very small area.
Mhm.
Er the w the way erm people are put in to live like that.
And you know the like erm a garden or a a small area in front of their own door, where they can put their children to play safely.
having lived on the flats erm what are you views on the actual policing of them?or not?
Erm.
Oh well to be quite truthful we didn't see the police  around very often .
You didn't see them round.
Er you'd occasionally see two of them walking erm around, but unless there was specific for the from for them coming, erm I did see them er going into a flat.
Now I don't know whether they actually broke the door down in the end, but they did gain entrance to a flat very near us, erm and they had dogs with them that night.
And that was there was quite a group of police together, well with that.
And there was quite a scuffle at that time.
Erm but they seemed to be there for a specific purpose, but the normal day to day
Mhm.
er policing of the flats, I mean they weren't erm strongly in evidence.
Mhm.
I would say.
What kind of policing policy would you actually say would have been would be suited to the flats anyway?
And the fact that they were they were not seen too much I mean how do y Do you se Do you view that erm as being a good thing or not?
Erm Well I I mean I think it it depends on your own perspective
Mhm.
on that one.
Erm for me I would feel that the police having a r a low profile, erm is more beneficial er and I think perhaps maybe, erm the community policemen type of thing, could have been helpful.
Erm but I you know I don't know that that was a got off the ground very well.
Mhm.
Er but I think you know, you've got sort of police walking around all the time, erm it can aggravate things rather than calm them.
Having lived in the flats but also erm from your experience erm both as a nun and a social worker, erm looking at Flats Complex.
Er it obviously has a lot in common with other inner city areas.
Erm what kind of response do you think is required to to help areas such as Flats?
Er well I think for anything erm really profitable to be h to happen, a great deal of money needs to be put into it .
Mhm.
And I think central government needs to look at the way in which inner cities are being constantly run down and erm problems highlighted and aggravated because of the circumstances.
And I think lots of  need to be put in, but I think what needs to be done is to hear that the people who are actually living in the inner city, feel it is what they need.
Mhm.
It's not just what somebody else thinks they need.
Yea 
So erm carrying on from where we left off, erm am I right in saying that, you feel that with areas such as this, it's very important more money's pumped in?
Mhm.
Mhm.
Yeah.
What areas When I say, What areas, I mean what mean c what erm would you like the money actually to to be  used on?
Er well I think more could be done with erm helping people who are unemployed.
Mhm.
Erm probably sett setting up some kind of small industry, erm or co-operatives.
I think that's  needs to be looked at.
And erm and I think something that er holding a community together.
Some ways of of providing money to get resources which will erm have the kind of facilities that people want to use, and where they will come together and be together.
Erm you know, not just er something that is er created and left there, it's with that erm the the thing in mind, that if if people want to have some place where they can get together, in the kind of atmosphere that they want.
With something there erm of interest to them.
Mhm.
I think that needs to be done.
But certainly I think erm with young and with the unemployed, that really is is quite a high priority to be looked at.
What are the consequences of erm  present policy continues and erm  areas such as this simply don't get simply don't get extra money for reductions continue to be made?
Mm.
Well what's gonna happen 
is that the area will c continue to deteriorate,
Mhm.
the problems will just increase, and the poor and are just going to get poorer.
So what are the consequences  for the for areas such as this.
I mean what does it mean for the actual people living here?
It means that they are just going to be even poorer than they are now.
Erm any bit of hope that they've got erm i is going to be gradually eroded as far as I can see.
And erm I think we'll be going back to the kind of erm conditions that there were in the Victorian age and in Dickens' age.
And in fact some of the the erm the that you look at now, could have walked out of a Dickens novel.
And i I you know, it it just looks as though erm they're trying to force more and more onto the voluntary erm centres and the voluntary organizations, to provide resources and to provide help.
Mhm.
But it's not going to be the answer to the problem.
How does it make you feel, the fact that er the way that areas such as Complex have gone downhill?
How does it make you feel as a person  human consequence .
It makes me sad, it makes me angry and erm  I don't know erm what other feelings it causes in me.
Erm t th certainly it makes me really angry that people have to struggle for the basics and I you know I I just don't see how people who are on long term benefits, erm state benefits, can survive without getting into serious debt.
Without getting into serious debt or going without erm things which are really necessary.
Am I right in saying that you see erm the problems of areas such as this as being  extremely urgent something  done now?
Yes.
Yeah.
I would say that if er if the inner cities are going to be saved in anyway, it's time it's past time now for things to happen.
And people are either just going to be in despair or else they're going to revolt.
Gonna be on thing or the other.
I see.
How how what way do you think it would.
Having lived on the erm complex, what ?
Erm
To the situation that people are in?
Well I can I can see lots of people just giving up hope and thinking, there's no way that we're going to get any better.
Erm I think there might be a small group who would be prepared to fight.
Mhm.
Do you f you you feel that erm  present government, erm do you feel that erm the other political parties  what they're erm suggesting with their policies for the inner cites, do you think they're any better?
Well  when it goes up to election, everything is good .
Mhm.
But afterwards er it's difficult to say.
Erm where whether they're any different from the ones that have gone before.
Erm b I mean certainly I I would think that this government erm has less care for er the poor than than other governments would have.
Mhm.
Because they just don't seem to be aware of the difficulties, people have of living on on the breadline and under the breadline.
What are the things that erm in addition to extra money, one of the things that you've abdicated pretty strongly is, involving the people themselves.
Yes.
Erm
Yeah because I don't think anything will will work unless it's what the people who are living in the circumstances and living in the situation erm, if it's not going to relevant to their lives then, you're wasting the money.
Mhm.
You might as well hand it to them as as as a gift.
Mhm.
As give them something that's not gonna be erm of use, or something that they don't see
Mhm.
as what their needs are.
Mhm.
How difficult do you think it wo it would be in actually involving e people in that kind of decision making.
I think it's difficult.
Mhm.
Because it takes time.
Yeah.
It takes a lot of erm energy and a lot of support.
Erm and er but I think it's it's better to take the time, and provide something that is erm what is needed, rather than to just go ahead and erm do something without referring to the people it concerns.
Mhm.
And I think our own erm tenants' group here, is a good example of that.
That although you know, erm interviewing eve if if not everybody on the flats, as many people as possible, as to what their feelings were about the flats and so on, to actually ca done all that, and involved them erm in the erm What has resulted is, the flats being vacated.
Erm that took a lot of time, a lot of thought and planning.
But in the end it has erm it's really paying off.
And I think that's the kind of thing that needs to be done.
Mhm.
Erm I think we covered it briefly but erm  covered it perhaps in slightly greater detail when when we had the preliminary interview a few weeks ago.
Mhm.
Erm you spoke a erm a a bit about erm  other people outside p outside people, and their response to the actual flats, the fact that  erm they saw the problems of the flats as being erm linked to the people themselves.
That's right.
Erm it was basically their responsibility, the the decline rather than anything else.
Mhm.
Erm what do you feel about that?
Erm.
have that feeling.
Well the feeling is a erm a great lack of understanding of what it is to actually live erm in poverty.
Mhm.
And er you know, I feel that people are only too ready to believe erm others you know er er to believe er others you know er er to believe the people living in the flats.
And don't want to see that it's any of their responsibility, at all.
that people are are forced to live in the flats, and are forced to live in on the minimum
Mhm.
amount of money that is that they could get.
As social work  you've had quite a contact erm with people on the flats, erm living in the situation they actually  most people in the flats.
How does what what what impact does that have on the actual problems that they actually .
To what ex what I'm saying is, To what extent has been living in the flats, has contributed  the life on the flats that they're in.
Yeah.
Erm well it certainly hasn't helped  the problems any .
Yeah.
Erm the people who have problems erm I would think, because of of feeling probably the way, they feel about living in the flats or about having to live in that way, doesn't make them feel any batter about erm you know any any other particular difficulties that they're having.
And erm I think, too, the sort of when you've got all people herded together, all people with problems, there are very few who can help themselves and help each other.
And therefore it just becomes a heavier and heavier burden.
Mhm.
Whereas if erm you know, the housing policy was such that er people aren't herded together in that way, erm then people can help each other.
Mhm.
Areas can help each other.
Mhm.
So what you're saying is that erm as most people are s such a high percentage of people in the flats, have pr have erm serious problems, it means it's basically th basically that all all their energy goes into actually trying to
Trying to survive .
get by themselves, survive themselves rather than being able to help others.
Yes I think that, jut having said the word survive, there erm, makes me think of if er they are actually surviving, but not living.
And you actually having lived in the flats, you saw that erm first hand.
Yes.
Yeah.
You've worked am I right in saying, have you worked on the flats You'd had contact had you, with people in the flats erm prior to 
Yes I'd had contact 
erm 
with people in flats since about, ooh nineteen 
Mhm.
seventy eight or so.
Mhm.
And er
So actually seeing though first time, how much of a shock did it come to you, or was it just or was it expected ?
Erm well I think you know, having a th my I think my first visit to the fl to the flat complex was a big shock.
Mhm.
Erm because I'd never actually been in the flats before.
And erm come here a young girl and a baby, and helping to install her in in on one of the flats, and just sort of e th there was something erm happened to be wrong with one of the rubbish chutes at that time, and we were actually kicking our way through rubbish on the stairs, erm near the chute to to get erm to come up.
And I think that really erm horrified me.
That this was the way people had to live.
And er but erm I think my erm sort of brief contacts with coming and visiting, when I actually came to live on the flats, erm I I knew what to expect and er and erm I wasn't  I wasn't surprised at erm you know, how what the living conditions were like.
Mhm.
How did  as mo as as we've erm said, most people in the flats actually flats actually live on erm benefits, erm how how di how did people get by?
I mean was it e day to day living?
Yes 
Erm 
I think it was it was day to day living and er which in some ways could be more expensive than if 
Mhm.
they were able to do a bit of erm say shopping for erm a longer period.
I know sometimes erm people when they got their benefit, would try and do shopping for two weeks, but even that was unrealistic of how long they were, what they were buying was going to last for two weeks.
Erm and so it was sort of going to the corner shop and buying what they could, er when they had the money, and sometimes they would borrow money from somebody whose benefit came on a different day.
And er to to try and tide them over.
But then again, when their own benefit came, that was a chunk out of it.
To start with, you know.
And er so it really was a hand to mouth existence and going without.
Mhm.
Living on very little.
And yet how successful were people in getting ?
Some people I I 
Yeah.
think were erm well to be quite truthful I don't know how  they managed to exist on it  and have a little bit for the occasional treat, erm or to have a a packet of cigarettes or whatever.
Erm how they managed to to survive on it, erm you know you just  you you you wonder how they can.
Mhm.
And yet some people managed to do i Yeah 
Because it's so little.
Some people managed to do that.
Yeah.
but I think at 
greater expense because they ad to go without, quite a lot, and especially people with children.
They they very seldom bought things for themselves, it was spent on the children.
And I know I mean er people who just went round jumble sales erm to try and get clothing for themselves 
Mhm.
and for the children.
Mhm.
And and I'm quite sure that many of the people erm living in the flats, never had anything new.
They didn't have the experience of buying something nice and new for themselves.
Mm.
I know you mentioned something erm earlier on.
Erm perhaps when we  today, about erm clothing that you managed to get together 
Yeah well I I had erm access to quite a lot of you know, quite good clothing, er both children's and adult's and erm while I didn't feel that it was that people should have to depend on someone else to give them clothing, erm in some ways it went against the grain to do it.
But rather than see people going without, erm if I had access to to good clothing, I didn't see why I shouldn't give it to them.
Erm because after all it wasn't their fault, but they
Mhm.
they couldn't afford erm clothing.
So I I would erm you know, quite often get bags of clothes, and s we sorted them out, and give them to people with erm quite large families and erm we used to also get some for the tenants' association for the jumble sales.
Mhm.
I'd get bags of clothing and and stuff for them.
As well.
And what was the response of people when they actually got this?
Well anybody that we gave it to, they would be highly delighted to get it.
And I mean that made you feel bad as well.
Er 
Erm you said when we left er where we left off last time, about erm about people and how delighted the they were to get second hand clothing.
But that's you know, basically related to the situation that people were in.
Yeah.
Erm I know it's a fairly difficult question, a wide question to ask for that matter, but erm how do you feel with the society, should should erm should respond you know, to to in order to actually help areas such as Flats?
It is a very wide question alright .
Yes it is yeah.
What are the kind of things?
Yes.
Er but certainly I I mean like, I mentioned before what a what areas like  need is is erm certainly more money being put in to actually providing the facilities.
Whether it's living facilities, or erm for facilities for people to use, er that certainly needs to be done.
And I think erm as for you know, what we as a sho society should be doing, erm you know that's the whole economic policy, erm would really have to be looked at.
And erm I think too, some ways of allowing people to have more power over their own lives, and not just being at the mercy of agencies, such as social services and erm 
Mhm.
you know, because they don't know what their right are with And you know, I think places like the law centre, which fight for the rights of people in , you know to develop that that kind of service for people.
Whereby erm we don't end up actually doing the things for them, but we show them the way that they can do them for themselves.
Mhm.
So how  how do you see the role of soci social services erm  
At the moment?
Yes how do you see at the moment how do you and how how
Well
How should it be, or how is it?
Well
h how it is erm I think maybe first, er 
Mhm.
a lot of our erm work is i sort of the statutory things that comes to us, either through care orders or through the court or through supervision of children in particular.
Erm so a lot of our time is done in that rather then in preventive or developmental erm work.
And I know that you know that that was our hope in moving into the area, that we'd be able to engage local people as volunteers and you know really develop services erm in the area.
But so far, because of the other pressures that are on us, that just hasn't been able to be followed 
Mhm.
through.
Erm and I I I think again like, what should erm we should be doing is more of the developmental, preventive type of work.
Mhm.
So what would that actually involve?
You say you're saying preventative.
Erm
Well
what would that
erm being able to help families that erm have problems in coping with their children and so on.
Rather than having to remove the children from them, to have more resources at our disposal, to either help erm parents to to develop better parenting skills, or erm  I mean,because a lot of the problems again are from poverty, a lot of the pressures are from poverty.
And you know i if a chil a child is bruised, very often erm you know if it it especially with you know, maybe a mother who has a few children to look after, and she's on her own twenty four hours a day with them.
Erm it is no wonder that she would lash out at a child.
You know with the and when she doesn't know where she's going to get enough money to feed, clothe them and especially at a time like now, when all these adverts are on television for, you know the toys that children want, and they just haven't the ability to provide those those things for the children, much as they would want to do it.
Mhm.
How much pressure do you feel people are under in  Flats  under to  a family?
I think they're under a great pressure and you know th I think it's erm you know, quite amazing really, that people survive as well as they do, given the pressures they're that they are under.
And you know, sort of given the given the lack of sort of environmental helps.
Erm because i I mean, even living in  can be a depressing experience in itself.
Sort of looking out of your window and seeing just a blank concrete wall in front of you, day after day after day.
Erm doesn't do much to lift your spirits if you're getting up feeling a bit down in the morning.
Mhm.
So that kind of pressure
Mhm.
er the pressure of erm coping with children in in that kind of environment, without enough money really, and also erm you know, things like having sleepless nights because of noise and things like that, and having to get up and cope.
Erm just the same as if you had had a good nights sleep.
Mhm.
How much of a problem had the noise been?
Well at times,s erm you know the the noise from blues parties could be really distressing.
Mhm.
And I mean whenever there was one in the flats, you could hear it probably throughout the whole complex.
Erm but you know when it was in a block that was fairly near you, erm er I think probably children were the least affected by it, because er I think they adapt to things like that more quickly.
But I mean a mother that couldn't sleep all night, and get up the next day, having to cope with the family, erm you know,thing things like that, they're very difficult.
Mhm.
with regard to blues parties,
Mm.
erm  what is your attitude towards them I mean, obviously something I suppose that people who actually take p who actually go  see it as being a form of en enjoyment for them.
Yeah.
Erm yet at the same time,obvi at the same time, it's affecting other people in the actual flats, so what is the solution?
Erm
To that?
I mean do you actually stop blues parties full stop 
I don't think 
or do you lose them s somewhere else?
Yeah I think moving them somewhere else, erm which would be a a maybe a bit further away,
Mhm.
erm from where people are actually living and trying to to get a nights sleep.
Erm I know I remember I spoke to erm I said in an earl the earlier part of the 
Mm mhm.
interview, that we didn't have erm much sort of inroads with the the young Caribbean community or the Rastafarian community, but erm you know I have spoken to one or two, and I remember speaking to one who said, that they had gone after a warehouse somewhere.
Erm I think it's somewhere down near where the  Road police station is now, and erm you know they had been hoping to get premises down there.
And something like that I thought would have been a very good solution.
Mhm.
Because they would be still free to go to their parties and they they wouldn't be affecting neighbours in that way.
Mhm.
earlier we mentioned about erm particularly about the actual stress that can people can g in erm living in the flats and also the financial difficulties.
Erm what social services erm policy say with regard to there's a certain amount of money available t say for if people came to  family.
And they happen to have a bill they can't pay.
In that situation, social services do have certain
We do have erm   it's rather you know, it's it's quite a small amount
Mhm.
really when you think of the extent of the problems in the area.
So erm and how we use that money is at our discretion.
Mhm.
There is a certain amount of money for f families.
And I mean I'm talking in matter of a few thousand pounds, to do for for a whole year.
And erm so we the the way we work it out ourselves, is that we don't actually pay people's fuel bills.
Mhm.
What we have done, when they've been cut off with erm electricity in particular, erm we liaise with D H S S for them to help their erm to get their their deductions made a at a level which doesn't leave them erm you know too short of money.
And we also have paid for the reconnection fee.
Cos usually, if it's been cut off, there's a  about twelve fifty or something, to be reconnected.
Mhm.
we pay the rec reconnection fee, but not the electricity bill .
Mhm.
And we also have given out food erm and money for food.
If someone comes and they've actually run out of food, and they've you know, for some reason or other their giro is either held up or you know, they've had a big expense er which they've had to pay, then we would provide them with something.
Erm to keep them to tide them over.
Mhm.
But at the same time, we are not er doing that, and letting D H S S out of s the the kind of provision they ought 
Mhm.
to be making.
I think if if we just hand out money for those kind of things, then the pressure is taken off D H S S 
Mhm.
and that's not right either.
Mhm.
So do you, as a social worker, have much erm do much work with D H S S?
Yes we we have erm a lot of connection with D H S S
Mhm.
erm you know we know the special case officers in each of the areas, and we also liaise erm on behalf of people who come in with problems to them.
We also provide the facility of the telephone here.
For people to make their own connections to the 
Mhm.
D H S S, because very often, they either can't get telephone boxes working, or they're hanging on so long that they don't have enough money 
Mhm.
to put in to the box.
Mhm.
So you know we we provide that kind of service .
mhm.
We also you know, do our best to to get them to er pay pay up when er when when they can, but I mean we're not always successful in that.
Especially now with the single payments being cut back so drastically.
Mhm.
And what kind of impact is that likely to have, the cutback on single payments ?
Well it I mean already, it is having quite an im impact erm especially for items like furniture and bedding, and I mean bedding doesn't last for ever, especially with a family, and I know erm they're allowed every so often , but erm I mean I think erm the the cutbacks are becoming more and more and more and and people seem to be  which means that we have to look around for voluntary erm agencies that ca such as , who can provide us with furniture or beds and bedding.
So that's erm in areas such as Flats and  the effects are pretty serious  
Yes.
the ch the change in policy.
Yes.
Yeah.
Mhm.
How does it make you feel, you know as a social worker, erm when whatever you in whatever you do, every  you do, no matter how effective you are, that you're That when you leave those people, they're in they're basically in that same situation and equally v and still vulnerable.
Yeah.
Erm
Erm well it doesn't make you feel very good.
Er I mean, I I would say that the majority of people in this office, carry a lot of erm anxiety and pressure home with them.
Mhm.
Er just because of this, you know, precise thing.
That erm you know, whatever you do, is very little, and we're not really taking the pressure off, very much.
Mhm.
I know that erm that we haven't real haven't covered in great deta detail is erm, how you yourself became a social worker and  career background.
Erm so erm  you've been a social worker for how many years?
I've been a social worker since nineteen seventy, so ten years this year.
Ten years?
Yeah.
Erm I went into residential social work first, erm but that was after twenty years of teaching erm in various parts of the country, I was in , Bradford, and then I spent seven years in Africa, where I also erm was a teacher, and when I came back from Africa, I was asked if I would just replace someone that was going on a course, in a residential er the mother and baby home it was actually.
And so I said, Yes, I would do that for the year and then I'd get back into teaching.
But when I actually erm got into the social work side of it, and i saw what the needs there were, erm and it was at the particular time too when you know, lots of teachers were sort of being made redundant, or at at least the er the numbers in schools weren't so high.
And I felt that that there was more pressure in social work than there was in teaching.
There was a greater need for social workers.
So I spent two years in the mother and baby home, then, and decided that if I was going to stay in social work, then I would erm be better a able to help people if I could do it from the theoretical background as well as the feeling erm background er of my own my own personal feelings.
Erm so I did the two year C C Q S W course.
I went back to the mother and baby home, for another almost two years, and from there that was I think I said at the beginning, how I actually was introduced to  Flats, and it was actually living at the mother and baby home, doing far more work with girls 
Mhm.
who moved out, that led me to want to live in the flats.
Mhm.
Do you  the fact that you actually lived in the flats  few years er at the same with you working on the flats as well.
How much of a benefit has that been, the fact that people are seeing you i as a as a professional who you know, who works for social services,
Mhm.
living amongst amongst that, I mean
Erm but the first year that I was in the 
Yeah.
flats, I was I was working erm in with a voluntary agency.
Yes.
I wasn't actually with Social Services .
Mhm.
Although I was doing the same kind of of erm work.
And then, as the job came up with Social Services, and I joined it, I did have some reservations, because I felt that maybe people would see me as sort of having deserted them and joined  them , you know, er brilliant movie?
Thank you.
Mhm.
but for what I am.
Mhm.
And er that they they still, even when I have to do things, which are not very erm happy either for me or for them, erm I'll just give the example of removing a child from 
Mhm.
the parents, erm well that is very difficult on both sides.
Erm I I still feel that there is an element of trust that people have in me, erm because of having lived with them.
Mm.
Mhm.
But I mean, how how often does that happen anyway?is that I presume that's very much a last resort.
It's ve Yeah, very much a last resort and it's usually, erm as a result of ill treatment.
You know, that that that 
Mhm.
that we would have to do that.
And not always, you know, it's not always the parents who have who have erm either bruised the child or something but
Mhm.
perhaps they've left them with someone who has done that.
Mhm.
You know the kind of erm the kind of accident that can happen .
Mhm.
Erm and you know there's er you know really er it's something that we're not the only ones who make the decision.
While we actually do the a the removal, we usually have other agencies with us such as the N S P C C, the police, who have to carry out the investigation into what has actually happened, and erm in the end the court.
Because if the court doesn't say that, Yeah, this child must remain in care, erm you know.
But we actually do the removal.
Mm.
And er you know that's quite traumatic.
Mhm.
Have there been many cases on the flats or has this been a
Well Er erm dunno that 
I mean, there have been some in the  area, which haven't been that flats as well.
Mhm.
You know.
Erm in my own, particular case, I have done it twice.
Mhm.
Mhm.
Is there any  danger that erm that it could happen more, er that you could have the same happening say in  Flats as a similar thing happening say in erm more middle class areas, such as, yet erm  there being more risk of of it of it of erm parents losing the child, say in some areas such as Flats, and yet in ,
Erm
somehow that  
Well I I I would say that if it comes to the attention of Social Services, that we would treat it the same.
Mhm.
In that we would go through the same procedure, whether they lived in 
Mhm.
or in .
Mhm.
Erm you know, we're not out to get  to get them.
And I think that's the you know, a general feeling, that's not just me.
You know from knowing how it affects other 
Mhm.
workers as well.
Mhm.
Yeah would you would you say that it's erm it's A, more of a problem in places such as Flats, anyway than than say  ?
Is it is it any more problem there?
Well I would say that the people in  Flats are under greater pressure.
Mhm.
And you know, I would say that erm because of the pressures, it is likely that people 
Yeah.
erm might lash out more.
It's not surprising considering 
Mhm.
the pressures.
Mhm.
But that's but that's erm not particula not because of the people, it's actually 
No.
because of the environment those people are , isn't it ?
Yeah.
I would think that.
Mhm.
Erm do you know you you've you spoke erm earlier erm about the church, erm   how do you see how so you se do you see the role of the church, erm in ar in er inner cities?
What what do you think they could do do?
Erm well I think, what they have to do first, is 
Mhm.
is to align themselves with the people.
Mhm.
Erm and I think actually being part of them and you know like, inner city churches, living right the you know the vicar's and the the congregation's not just coming from say  to , but actually living in the area.
And er just sort of by their lives, becoming relevant as well.
Mhm.
And I I think I must say that i it's well certainly in Nottingham, my experience is that the church of England is and  perhaps other churches, are more aware of this than the catholic church is.
Even though i belong to the catholic church, that's my feeling, erm and my experience, I would say, since living in .
Mhm.
So is that I mean  to what extent do you feel erm the ch the church generally has moved along the road that you'd like to see it?
Move.
Erm it's it's moving, I think, slowly.
Mhm.
First of all it's becoming aware
Mhm.
it's becoming aware that people who live in the inner cities are not bad.
Mhm.
That a lot of it is due to the the living conditions and the unemployment and all the rest of it.
I think, and once the awareness is there, then the movement can begin.
And I think that's what is happening.
Mhm.

A word gets around the famine is over and after the tragic experience of loosing her family, her three men in her life, her husband and her sons, nobody starts to consider the situation again, she's alone now in a foreign, a strange land, surely the only sensible thing for her to do would be to return to her own people in Bethlehem, they say news comes through that they've been a succession of good harvest, well of course there was gonna be good harvest, god hadn't forsaken his people, although they had sinned, although they had done what was wrong, he hadn't forsaken them, gods not in the business for forsaken people, he's long suffering, he is faithful, he keeps his covenant from one generation to another  that he hadn't forgotten the people in Bethlehem and he had sent them through and he had provided good harvests  those who had remained in Bethlehem during the famine, they'd only suffered for a short time, perhaps enough time to bring them to their senses, to bring them back to god, now the suffering was forgotten as they revelled in a plentiful supplying in abundant harvests  Naomi on the other hand she knows want now, she's suffering bereavement, she's suffering poverty, she's suffering remorse, there's nothing for her in Noad, there's no rest, no joy, no provision, nothing that could meet her needs  what a pity she had wasted there those ten wasted those ten years, ten long wasted years in her life  now she comes to a decision whatever the cost and there is a cost, she's gonna have to eat humble pie, how are they gonna receive her when she goes back  but she comes to that decision that no matter what it costs her, she will go back to the place that was chosen for her by god, her inheritance of him  It always to our cost when we under value our inheritance, do you remember the story of Jacob and Aesop and how Aesop despised his birth right, the inheritance that was his, and Illuminarc and Naomi had done the same, and you and I can do it so easily, leaving, forgetting, not entering in to the inheritance that is ours in Christ, we do it to our own costs, and so she goes through that I'm gonna go back, I'm gonna take up my inheritance, I'm going back home.
You know sometimes the way forward is backward, there are no short cuts with god, if he's leading along a certain path and were disobedient, there's no way we can opt out of it and join the trail further along, he doesn't allow it, its back to where we left it, that's were we've gotta get back to, we can't skip an experience, we can't miss any thing out, we've got to go back to where we start, where we were when we left the trail  and Naomi has to do just that to go back to Bethlehem, that's the way forward for her, and you see because we all, we always find this if we are really children of god, then we can never ever be satisfied away from the will of god, there's nothing else that meets our need, its god will or nothing, you know, when we know frustration in our lives, when we know sort of the, these annoyances and, and, and, and er sense of frustration there, its not because god is leaving us that way its invariably cos we have actually gone out of gods will because he's will is not frustrated, its satisfying, can I just, it will only really be headings this morning, just leave us with three brief headings in this little incident that we'll read or we, we won't read the whole passage but its, er in the remainder of the, or more or less the whole of the remainder of the first chapter  tha that the cost was involved and then the choices that were made and then the commitment, the cost that was involved Naomi had to pay something, you see before she could return to Naomi she had to con , before Naomi sorry could return er to, to Bethlehem, she had to acknowledge she'd done wrong, she had failed, she had sinned, she had to acknowledge she had made a mistake  now  in fairness to Naomi she did it and she excepted her responsibility, she didn't try and shift the blame on to 
she didn't say well er my husband brought me here because it was a decision that she had parted, it was a choice she had made as well and so she, she excepts her responsibility, she excepts her blame and she goes to return so there was, there was this sense of confession and, and confession can be costly when we've got to admit that I was wrong, I did wrong, I was mistaken, I went the wrong way that could be a costly mistake and, and, and er costly experience for us to go through, but surely the, the true sign of repent is that we do acknowledge our sin, we acknowledge our failure, that we acknowledge what it means to god, we can't shift that blame onto somebody else  then also consider not just the cost that Naomi had to pay in going back, but also there was a cost for Auper and for Ruth as well as Moabias there would be little joy for them in Israel, they were foreigners, they were strangers, there wouldn't be much hope for happiness for them, there would be very little likeliness for them ever getting married in or remarrying er in, in Israel, they wouldn't be able to worship there own god, they'd be taken from one culture to another, there'd be taken from one language to another, what was it gonna be like for them, alright, perhaps whilst they were living with Naomi perhaps she could pull a few strings for them, but what happens when she goes and they are left by themselves  and yet it would appear that with  Naomi making her decision to return that they too these two daughters in law they decided to go to Bethlehem with her and it tells us that they set out together  but  perhaps they hadn't thought it really through  because their not totally committed to us and as they come towards the frontier and their gonna pass into in, back into Judah with their few miserable possessions that they've gathered together, Naomi again considers the consequences facing these two young women, Auper and Ruth, they continued with her, as she pleads with them to go back home, Judah is no place for a foreigner, Judah is no place for somebody to come unless they are part of gods people, and I'm reminded of again of what it tells me in, in the book of acts, that in the early church, that people were actually frightened, frightened to join with the disciples, they were frightened to join the church, there was no room for, for stragglers, there was no room for hangers on, there was no room for those who went just because they thought it was gonna be the next, the in thing to do, but folk were actually frightened of joining because they knew they had to put their lives right, they knew they had to live holy lives, they knew that god had to be lord and master in their lives and unless they were willing to do that and be committed to him they were actually frightened of joining and one of the great weaknesses of the church today is that it becomes and it can becoming our thinking and nothing more than just something we join, something we belong to, something we go along to er as like a club, like an association, but that's not the picture we see it in the New Testament, it is a very exclusive body, it is a very exclusive grouping, a grouping of those who have committed themselves to Jesus Christ and that's why not every body is a member of the local church, not every body who goes to church on a Sunday is a member of a church to Jesus Christ  now they know if they are, but other people may not know, they know and the lord knows, I know if I belong to him and he knows if I belong to him  other people may not, I can put on the act, I can look as though I'm playing the part, I can go through the routine, I can, I can, I can fool every body, but he knows and I know, and he knows and you know and so Jesus said not every body who says lord, lord on that day will I acknowledge and recognize  and so for Ruth and Nao er yes Ruth and Auper it was gonna be different of course for them as foreigners in Judah especially when Naomi goes  and she pleads with them go back home, Judah is not place for Moabias, she knew what it had been like to be a foreigner, she knew what it had been like to be an alien land in an alien culture in a different religion with a different language she had known the bitterness of it all, she pleads with them go back home  she prayers for them the lord bless you, the lord you know be gracious to you and so on, but they refused  and again Naomi puts it to them, to please go back and Auper reconsiders and she takes the counsel and advice of her mother in law  but no so Ruth and Naomi turns and says look your sister in law's gone back, she's gone home, you go as well , you can't do it, its a too greater price for you to pay, its a choice you mustn't make, a decision you mustn't make, your gonna have poverty, your gonna have loneliness, your gonna have hardship.
I'm sure that Ruth searches her heart, she, she may of made her decision lightly way back to go with Ruth er, to go with Naomi but not now, its a heart searching decision she makes, the choice before her, do I go back or do I go, do I go on, do I go back to Moah with its familiarity with all the things I am aware of or do I go on into the unknown with my mother in law and with her god  Auper makes a choice and she goes back and Ruth had, Ruth says no and she makes the commitment and she says there, in verse sixteen, do not urge me to leave you or turn back from following you, for where you go I will go and where you lodge, I will lodge, your people should be my people and your god my god and its those last few words that makes all the difference, your god will be my god, I will not be a stranger there, I will not be an alien there, I will be part of your people, and the only way she could be part of Naomi's people was for Naomi's god to be her god, that was the thing that kept, that was, that was the common denominated should all of Naomi's people, because they all belonged to
and Ruth says I commit myself to him, he will now be my god, and therefore your people will be my people, your home will be my home, your destiny will be my destiny  the way is clear, she makes that greatest decision of her life, a decision that will affect the whole of her life  but its not as say a life decision is a commitment now, we, we, we are always confronted, day after day we are confronted to make decisions, some of you make decisions and were not too committed about them, and if things alter they will change our minds, not just a ladies prerogative to change her mind, men do it as well and things happen and we think oh no well, I won't go through with that I'll change my mind before its too late, but here Ruth she is not just making a decision, she is making a total commitment, a commitment that is worth time of the whole of her life, to promised to be loyal to de to Naomi and her deceased husband, she promises loyalty to Naomi's race and the people of god, but above all she acknowledge's Naomi's god and her willingness to follow him to the end, you know this, how she finishes of this commitment  where you die I will die its to the end  its to the end of my life, I will not walk out of it and even after you've gone mother in law, even after you are dead I am still committed to that decision, this decision I am making today where you die I will die, there I will be buried, and here she sorts of puts this solemn vow to this commitment, thus may the lord to do me and worse if any thing but death parts you and me.
Nao Naomi realizes there's no point talking about it now, the dye has been cast the decision has been made, the commitment has been entered into, whatever the cost she was going gods way, there was nothing more to be said about it  we find that a de a decision made before god and we all make those decisions, means nothing at all unless were determined to carry it through, whatever the cost may be, three women here make their decisions before god, they make their choices, Naomi she chooses to return to Judah once again and enjoy the inheritance god has given her, Auper she chooses to return to her own country and her own god, as far as were concerned that's the end of the story, but Ruth she chooses, she expresses her faith in the one true god, she turns her back on the old ways and decides to follow gods way, no matter what the cost, she would of said with Joshua, but as for me and my husband were gonna serve god, whatever the cost, I dunno what'll be and she didn't know what she was letting herself in for, and the, I counted it, although I don't know what it is, I counted that cost, I'm willing to pay it and Jesus said that that is the acid test of disciples, said to count the cost and weigh it up and Ruth had done that, then to make their decision  and because if we make a decision without counting the cost, without weighing it all up, like Auper you'll go back, it won't last, there is that choice for every one of us day by day, who will we serve, not to be like Joshua, its for us, never for any body else, I will serve the lord because and this is the reason for it, not because you've done nice things for me, I will be your saviour because he is god, that's the reason for our serving god, not because he blesses us because he blesses people who don't serve him, blessing is not exclusive to gods people, blessing, god blesses across the board, god is generous he's gracious, he causes the rain and the sun to shine on the just and on the unjust, blessing is not the ground for serving god, but because he is god that's sufficient reason for our committing ourselves to him.
Let's just sing shall we as we close, whilst were singing were gonna take up our morning offering, its number one ninety seven, one hundred and ninety seven  an element of commitment in this song, one nine seven, well stand to sing.

Okay, just past  sorry Doctor .
Right.
Ah good morning.
Good morning.
Morning sir.
What can 
Aye.
I do for you today Mr ?
Well I got that sore arm.
And
Right, right.
remember you said it would be a rheumatic,
Aha.
well I went to physio.
Yes.
And er I went six times and it never made any bloody difference.
Oh.
So he came to the conclusion that I'd torn a muscle.
Oh right.
So I was wondering, can I get it x-rayed?
Yes, sure.
Because I'll tell you why, Doc, I mean 
Aha.
it doesn't bother me, the  time it I've  pain, until I hit a wrong shot at golf.
Cripes I could've  
bad once.
No could feel it.
As bad as that right.
Let's get that  .
And and I was I was in in the grocery  on Monday morning but erm we were  go through a pack of  you know.
Aha.
And of course they go  up here beautiful and I was going to take this apple and they're all gonna fall and I got to that, Jesus it just about.
Right.
So I just doesn't like,
That's fine  
and I'm
Yeah.
and I'm in a big competition on the twenty eighth  
It's .
Oh.
We can't have that,
No.
we can't have that.
That's not a good sign.
so my wife she fell on on on Sunday again.
I'm having an awful problem to herself.
She was up at er what do you call, no yesterday, and she, you know she goes to the clinic then,
Yes.
That's just for her blood.
But they they think that she's got an absolute problem.
Oh she's
Oh.
got a problem alright .
Cos she's covered in that rash always, you remember you saw it once before?
That's right.
I can't believe that's right.
And one one day you know it's flared up and the next day it's dead, but they say it's better coming out to the surface .
Yes.
Er.
Is it still up this arm mostly?
The right one?
Aha.
Right from here.
It's there.
Right from here.
Ah.
Up to the shoulder.
Well it does when I when I hit the thing, but but that's when it gets  when I've got to work it.
Aye .
That's  
Ah that's what they thought, and  I cannae  in a long .
No.
you know he was honest about it ,
Yes.
it's just that I think  that all happened with my electric going for running away.
Oh I'll tell my wife about that and that'll that'll that'll put put a stop to that piece of nonsense .
It did, I tried to save it and the damn thing came off, you know the the 
mhm.
and it was on full power and I tried to save it after this thing came off.
Aye, it seems I'd have been better letting it run on the blooming thing.
And otherwise I mean there's nothing wrong, nothing .
And I cannae let it interfere with my golf, can I?
No.
You've cer got to get things in perspective I mean that 
It's not, it's not only that Doctor it's in your mind, you know you
That's right, yeah.
You've always 
you've got to, you've got to be at it all the time.
You're always trying to protect it.
Ah, are you hitting the wee ball yourself?
Not yet this year,
No?
not yet, no.
I've well I've been to er 
I've been on the  Hill twice this year, so.
Have you?
Oh aye, I like  Hill.
I really 
like it.
I've been on it, er, I've had two five holes.
Oh is that all?
Yeah.
That's all I've had so far,
Mm.
so far.
Now do you know where this x-ray place is, Alan?
It's down at the back,not.
No no 
No.
no no.
I'll just I'll just draw it, draw it out for you.
You know the far end of ?
Aye, I've taken my wife there before.
There's a wee hospital on the left .
Union, union, yes.
Aye.
On the road between  and .
That's right
There's the park in there,
Aye.
up the hill from the park there's a roundabout,
Yeah.
a roundabout there.
And you go past it and then turn right, no .
No, no no, no no.
Before you reach it, there's a street in there, just before you reach it.
There there are houses 
Oh I know, there's a big garage on the left hand side at that rounda 
There's a big garage in there.
Aye I know.
Doctor I've been there.
Mhm, yeah .
Big garage in there.
Aha, you've been there,garage there, in the street, up here ,
Mhm.
in through the gate,
Right.
and it's the building, first building on your right hand side.
Just go 
Great and I 
in there, give that to the girl, she'll put you through more or less right away
Yes.
Aye I took my wife.
When am I going?
for your x-ray and we'll get that to Anytime.
Oh just anytime ?
Anytime.
Yes, aye, it's all changed, it's all changed.
I can go
You can go anytime after I think it's nine fifteen 
or nine thirty in the morning.
Oh great.
Up till four o'clock in the afternoon .
Oh great, Doctor, thanks.
So we'll get that checked out for you Alan and we'll
Just just to see cos as I say I just can't believe it .
Twenty five per cent of your winnings.
Right, right, it's three days at , all expenses if I win here at .
Aha.
It's the Scottish erm er er the Scottish er  insurance company that runs it, for the whole of Britain.
So aye and so we've got thirty eight guys to beat down here, and er three days at 
At the big house.
And I'm in the final there.
Right, Alan.
Thanks a lot,
Okay, sir, bye now.

And like you just do ordinary skipping  and you jump in the middle and it's H P W R.
Then H P W R and if it lands on P you have to go really fast.
The first person has to start skipping in the middle and everybody says H P W R and if it landed on P the next person would have to skip fast.
And what if it lands on any of the others?
You just have to do what it means like.
H you can do higher hopping and P fast and R round you gotta turn around with a skipping rope and W waives.
And hot chocolate.
What's hot chocolate?
Well somebody sa and they stand facing the wall and they shut their eyes and there're people at the end and they have to try and get to the other side without the other person seeing them.
And them erm when everybody's been caught by the person who's at the person sat saying things like hot bananas hot milk and then when they say hot chocolate the you've got to run back.
And they've got to try and catch nobody.
And if nobody's caught the person who was it  is it again.
And we do tinker taylor.
How much money they're gonna have and how much presents you're gonna get at the wedding and how many guests you're gonna get.
And when the wedding's gonna be and what you're gonna wear and what you're going to go there in and how many children you're gonna have and how many years you're gonna be married.
And like a lot like the guests you're gonna have at the wedding and the presents and the money and the children there's just numbers.
Like the children I think it's something like two four six eight two four six eight just keep going like that.
And what about where you're gonna live?
Big house little house pigsty barn.
There isn't very many soldiers that grew up at this school any more.
We went a trip  and there was two lasses and the class Heather and  and they were playing soldiers on the way back.
Well it was like the two soldiers and the one person just holds it the other person just tried and knock the head off.
We do that at me granny's cos there's lots of soldiers there.
Soldiers was a game played with  grass where each was armed with a stem and little head of the plant and by heading one's opponent soldier try to knock off his head.
There were two kinds of soldiers.
The brown headed ones were tough and could stand any amount of thrashing and the head would hang on quite a while by a mere thread.
Sometimes when it got worn like that it would twine round the other soldier so that his head could be pulled off.
They other kind of soldier was black with little white florets growing out from the head.
The stem of this one was easily broken and often the head would fly off at the first stroke.
I wonder if they're counting out rhymes of our school playtimes are still remembered like.
Itty pitty penny pie hoppum lorrum linkum chinkum chie.
Wood stands though there by.
Or another where the leader chanted, As I went through a chinese town I met a chinese lady.
Players then asked, What colour was she dressed in?
Whereupon the leader decided on a colour for example brown.
The countdown went on then,B R O W N  spells brown and  O U T  spells out.
Till the one we called the donor was selected.
The stems of mare's tails with their jointed stalks were disjointed to provide a little guessing game as to which joint was the broken one.
The bulky leaves of ribwort planting were pulled apart to reveal the green leaf stalks.
By the number of leaf stalks revealed it was discovered how many lies a friend had told that day and a long stalk indicated a big lie.
For all I know these little games may have had their origins hidden in long tradition.
The tinker taylor soldier game was played by plucking the parts from rye grass stems.
Further lines we had were as to where future homes would be chanting, A big house a biggie house a pigsty a barn.
Or with regard to the wedding plays, silk satin cotton rags or even if the offspring would be boy lass twins triplets or what these babies were to be rocked in.
A cradle a ladle a pot supply your own adjective or a pen.

This particular study for  so he could listen to it.
Erm, he had said, that if nothing else he discovered how lively the children were at my school.
I I I recorded it in a closed classroom during the lunch-time playtime
and you can still hear the children's voices wafting through the double glazing.
So, anyway, I hope it wasn't too distracting for him, and that he was able to pick out, erm, the information that he wanted.
So.
Thank you very much  for leading us tonight, and all here will be interested to hear what you have to say.
Thank you.
Will I hope I'm not going to lead you astray.
No.
Er, one of the things that I I I do wish hand-book writers would er, do, is to erm, write whenever practical, to seek out the strength of the group, at the beginning, so, that for example, how mu if there are those of us who've been magistrates or been before the court, or involved in legal processes.
It's to know that in advance because I think they then have a practical contribution to make.
Anyway, before I say any more about that.
I looked up the subject, Justice, in the new dictionary, and it said, To Treat Justly, or to Treat Fairly, and then it went on to talk about legal justice.
But the subject of justice itself, harked on mainly the legal aspect which these notes deal with, is I think one of the most penetrating subjects have affect all our lives.
So this little tape, this little recording, er, highlights in justice, which probably is even a more fascinating subject as justice.
Well the two in a way are inseparable.
Right, away we go.
All being well, that's if er,th that's if er, the electricity's on.
beautifully written.
You heard it alright down that end.
Yes  be okay.
Is that in the way,
Mind you don't fa no.
Mind you don't fall over.
Can I push it under the chair somewhere.
I should, yes.
because you might 
That out of the way.
Might fall over the wire.
It occurred to me that so many of the people who influence our lives are people who have been unjustly treated.
I I hope this is not a mischievous comment, but I I think it's very questionable, whether the Christian faith would be known as it is today, down two thousand years, had it not been for an innocent man, Jesus, being unjustly punished and crucified, and so many of the great reformers in the history of man, men and women have died or suffered grave imprisonment because of injustice, and in a paradoxical way, injustice in a way,yo you almost seem as if we need injustice to drive us on, to get things done in a, in a better way.
So that I think, had the subject been injustice, it would have just been just as er, exciting as  justice, fact or fiction.
I hope therefore, we will keep in our minds the meaning, that justice means to treat justly, or to treat fairly, and remember that it's a double ed sided coin.
The notes that have been prepared for us go over er, rather briefly the legal systems in our land, and er, even references made to France, which has a slightly different legal system, which may be a bit better than ours  and so that, in the notes, we not only look at the High Court, the High Court, the Criminal Court, the County Court er er, and realise what an important part of legal proceedings er, these courts fair, as well of course, as the largest courts of all,, the Magistrate's Court.
Now, when  asked if I would introduce this subject, she said, I think I'd better mention this for the sake of the truth,
of of of everything, er, she said, as you raised, you been appeared in the paper, obviously, in dealing with something, it seemed to you, unjust, our folks thought you ought to introduce this subject.
So I thought I'd better clear that little matter up, for starters, because you would be very interested.
For twelve months, I've been trying to er, when I realised that that was put on my cleaning bill, it seemed to be so unfair that the little ol and the lady who, up till now has has cleaned for me, because the home help service, no longer just does cleaning.
And I, er and I pretended to be incapable and I, and said I would like someone to go and help me do shopping, home health service would have, come along.
Yeah.
because I was straightforward and said, all I want is someone to come and see my place is kept clean, and they said, we can't do that anymore,
They're not trying.
and we will give you a er, two addresses, and so they gave me two addresses and and to reach people at  I've done the job quite well.
broken down since the paper article, hadn't had a sole come since that newspaper article.
disappeared.
And now, and now.
Well, I reckon so, so I I've arranged for someone else to do it now.
Er, but the point I wanted to make was that, after trying for twelve months, first of all, er, I wrote to my local M P.
I went through the proper process  and the local MP er, er MP for Labour, didn't know much about it, and he referred it to the Postmaster General, I think it is, who took three months to answer.
Mm.
When eventually, he was blaming the European Union, not European Community now, boys and girls, that's right, isn't it, it's European Union now, isn't it.
Yeah, listen I I 
Yeah, another European Community.
Anyway, he said that they had imposed this, and the Government couldn't do anything about it.
It was the directive, the word he used.
On checking further with the European Union, I don't take anything for granted, not even what MPs say, er, it turned out that it wasn't a directive and that the Government had freedom of choice, whether it imposes it or not.
So then, of course I went to the Euro M P.
That's how I found out about it.
Then last November, I went to see her, she was out, and I see her Press Officer.
I gave her all the papers, and erm, she said well, and that  meanwhile had, spoken to me on the phone, and said she would do what she could.
that the local MP and the, and the, couldn't do anything more about it.
And, er, the upshot of all that was, I got a phone call, what, three weeks ago, from one of the papers saying, we'd like to come and take your picture Mr  cos we're doing this article about  on on er, on care services, so I said, okay, so he came and took a picture.
That's all I knew about it.
You've all seen, or most of you have seen the article, I was never interviewed by the press, whatsoever.
Oh, typical.
Yeah, typical.
Yeah, yeah.
which, and I was quoted as well, they may, I mean, whether the Press Officer, er  Press Officer, er er, quoted me, and he altered my conversation with her, I don't know.
But the important thing was, the impression that everyone  er had, who read the paper, was that I had been interviewed by the press.
Mm.
In fact, it was only naming one lady on the paper.
Mm.
I just mention that, because that, I thought you ought to know the truth of that, you know, and things aren't what they appear in the paper.
No.
Can't believe anything, can you.
No harms done, really, although I wouldn't have said, what was attributed to me, I wasn't moaning about the money.
I never moan about hardship.
I was arguing about the principle, that er, I mean, the lady who came to clean for me, was a nursing auxiliary, and if I'd had rheumatism, she would have bathed me, and done sort of thing as well.
So that little old ladies who are, decide, or old gentlemen for that matter, want to try and live in the community, and then, they stick that on their bill.
It's the only, and it's only because, and this is, I mean, having to understand why Government, surely the majority of supporters of the present Government wouldn't approve of this.
The only exception in my case, is that I've used a firm that does more than thirty-five thousand pounds worth of work a year.
Mm.
Yeah.
Mm.
And that, the answers I got from Government was, use a voluntary body, they don't have to pay that.
Er, use the County Council, I said, they weren't prepared to do it.
But they would do cleaning just cleaning, the County Council will, though it hasn't got the people to do it.
But of course, they've priced, they've done this by charging eight pounds an hour.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh.
For someone to come and clean, and then you would have to pay V A T on it.
You see, cos they don't say that, and anyone else who doesn't, who does less than thirty five thousand pounds worth of, if Mrs  down the street said, I couldn't do forty pound, then they don't have to pay that.
But that was not the issue.
And t and th then, since the paper talk, that's right, it's nothing to do with it, but it may have a bit to do with justice, we'll get round to it in a bit.
T since the the paper article, I wrote direct to the Chancellor, as he's living down the street, personal letter to him.
He didn't answer it personally, eventually about three weeks afterwards I got the letter from Customs and Excise, who deal with this, saying, in a rather remarkable last paragraph, We have to charge V A T right across the board.
In other words, if any of you were wealthy enough to employ a lady or a gentleman t do the cleaning.
To do the cleaning 
Then, they have to charge V A T.
But I always thought cleanliness was next to Godliness,
Mm.
I mean, I didn't think he had to have V A T on, I mean, if it's a millionaire, you know, and they employ la , they employ people to clean.
I was surprised that that is put on cleaning.
But because it's got to be right across the board, and they won't make exception, of people like myself and others who are living in the community that need home help.
Mm.
So that's the whole story, I thought you ought to know.
Yeah.
This has been happening to me, just the same.
Pardon.
It's happened to me just the same.
Yes, yes, so er.
What paper was you in,
Oh, I don't know.
Mercury 
Mercury or Post, look,
I saw it in the Herald and Post.
Mercury was, yes I  it's one in the Mercury and the other one was the one with the picture.
Yeah, Herald and Post, cos I saw it.
Now then, back to subject.
Sorry about that.
Are they any here, who have been magistrates?
Yell if you have, cos I can't see your hand 
Anybody.
No.
No.
How many of you have been to County Court?
No.
No.
No.
What an innocent lot.
We are good.
We are.
How many of you' ve been before a Judge?
No.
No.
No.
Been to courts on purpose is, the cases.
At one time I used to quite often go to the Castle.
Yes.
And they were very interesting, actually.
I found it very interesting.
Yes.
But never, er  from the wrong side of the bench, you know  Never as a criminal.
Well, now,th this is where  comes into his own, you see.
Yeah.
You would be.
once was tried in a way but a Judge, er, tumbled to it, and it was at Leicester Castle.
Had things gone wrong with me, I may ultimately have been sent to prison.
I was g , I was going to get  to read the newspaper report in the Mercury and the Mail, and when I appeared at Leicester Castle before a Judge, but er, I think, and I was going to give you a clue.
But perhaps we'll forget about that now.
I can hold my peace.
It was, it was fifty-four ago, there's your clue.
Anyway, so I appeared before a Judge, the only time when I've really been, he was judging me.
Yeah.
another time I, more recently I appeared before a Judge at Norwich, as a wi , as a witness for people who have been unjustly treated.
I only appear in court when other people have been unjustly treated.
Er, I've been before, when it was the Assizes, at Newark.
Then I didn't anticipate, I was yanked out of the back of the court, I'd gone there to see some proceedings with people I was involved with and all of a sudden the barrister for the defendant said, is a Mr  in court?
So I got yanked out,
Mm.
to go into the witness box, and that was interesting really, because that was a recorder then, now it's no longer, that's finished with now, isn't it.
We don't have the Assizes.
Th the Crown Court's taken the place of the Assizes, I think, and then
It was a shame, because it was very interesting.
Yes, you have a Judge now at the, of the Crown Court, I think.
Any anyway, I appeared there, this was interesting because, being a friend, I didn't  swear on the Bible, it's something that's not brought up in these notes, you don't think it's quite an important thing, really, so the Clerk of the Court,with his bible, would you, you know, repeat this.
So I said, I'm sorry, no I'm   is it, the law officer, spur of the moment, I mean, I didn't know I was gonna finish up there.
I said, I'm sorry I'm a quaker, I I  will not, we don't believe in double standards.
Mm.
And erm, the the Clerk was in a flat spin, because he hadn't got a card, which said, I affirm that, what I say is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and the recorder himself was was  about
who got a paper for me to read out, then.
So that was the time I've been before a recorder.
Er, the Magistrate's Court I've been to twice.
The last time in Norwich about six years ago, and then there were five Magistrates out, and the sittings went on, for between two and three days.
The Norwich City Council wanted to get a licence to be able to sell intoxicants at a new pop centre they were going to open, mainly for young people, and  was a member of the Labour Party, incidentally, and and a County Councillor, one of the City Wards, had the cheek to go and oppose the whole of Norwich City Council
I was nearly chucked out for that, I left before they could chuck me out, actually.
Er, and I got up and I protested about it, on the grounds that if they couldn't run a great big pop hall for, and I wholly agreed with the idea, of of them providing the facility.
Could have said, if if if the finances of that, depends on selling alcohol, then, I think it's time Norwich City Council made a stand, and say we're only going to sell non-alcoholic drinks.
Mm.
firm there, incidentally, er, that's surprised me, going to a mar court, a a a court like that, purely when it was a, a application for a er drink licence, and still have to er, er .
Erm, the other time was, and this isn't a point, either, made in the notes, erm, when I was at, Wells Next The Sea.
I had been the first Chairman of Wells-Next-The-Sea, Town Council, but two or three years afterwards, we decided to turn, er, the old cinema, they wanted to turn the old cinema into a Dance Hall.
I was an ordinary member of the Council for that, I had done me two years Chairmanship, and here again, I was naughty really, considered naughty.
But next to the Dance Hall if we'd given them the licence to ha turn the cinema into a Dance Hall, there was this little old boy who lived just the other side of the road, in an old cottage, and he was over eighty.
I knew he, I didn't know him, I didn't know him, but I do go and see him when I saw this case was covered up, and it seems to be utterly unreasonable that this poor old chap was going to have doors slamming and banging, and then people coming out the Dance about midnight, and his whole life being disrupted, so I I turned  on there, unknown to my own Council, oh, they were cross with me.
And I went to the Magistrates and acted and and gave witness on behalf of this old gentleman.
The Town Council were so stupid there,we they're, the Magistrate threw it out, said, no, you can't have a licence, because it'd be too big a public nuisance, they decided to appeal.
So then  appears at Norwich Crown Court, now the case before us, was a criminal case, so that the Crown Court can deal with civic cases as well as criminal cases, cos our cas , the next one was ours.
And, I forget the name, it's, the chappie was still Judge there, cos I saw his name recently.
But when I went up to er, was called as a witness  I, this was I amazed me, the Jury Judge said I wish to affirm, he wanted to know why.
Well, I reckon that's a bit of a cheek, really, if you prefer to affirm and swear on the bible, I don't see why they should challenge why you want to do one or the other.
Mm.
So I said I'm a quaker.
Oh, that's alright then, Mr 
So I think, we erm, anyway, the Wells Council lost it's case and  was really in the bad books over that.
But, er, so I've appeared in these places, purely because I'm, injustice, you know, stirs me up.
And it's no good moaning, so  has to go and do something about it,
Mm.
Mm.
and get into trouble.
Er, but I hope, for the, for the, for the right cause.
So that's why I've been rather, er, you know, had quite a bit of ex experience in the court.
Which is another point, really, that people I find  even if they appeal for witnesses about something that's gone wrong, people are very hesitant, the majority of people in the community are frightened of being witnesses,
Mm.
and unless we are prepared to, you know, to do this, er, we can't complain if there is injustice, it seems to me.
Now, today, I'm going to break away from the notes a little bit, cos I think, there's so many things you could bring, we could bring in, and I think some of the points made in the notes will naturally come out in our discussion.
Er, today and every day, almost, a question of the police, at the moment, there is this business going on, er, in in London, at Stoke Newington, over the fact that, the charges against the police for corruption, being involved with all sorts of things that they shouldn't, er, and we are living through a time, where the police is  having to fight a battle for it's own respect.
The police were originally formed from the community to represent the community, er, and to protect the community.
That that's how it it started, that's why they weren't part of the force, is, police were part of a co community, and therefore to have respect for the police, seems to me quite vital if we are to have a real sense of of of justice and and fairness.
I wonder what your views are, or wh what can be done, or whether anything can be done, er, to rebuild the respect for the police.
Well, that would begin, I think er, in the home.
Teaching young children the right from wrong, and why the police are there and, accepting them as friends, like we did when I lived in the village.
The policeman knew everybody, and he was a very nice man, very firm, and he would deal with minor, youth troubles, you know, when we got the spate of trouble every now and then.
Give you clip on ear.
He knew where they were and he used to jolly well,
That's right.
er, give them a good clout, and also,
Yeah.
see the fathers and mothers and tell them you see, we we've had enough of this lot, were not having any more.
We never had any serious trouble at all.
cos it was nipped in the bud.
The local policeman took it in hand, and nobody grumbled, if he gave them a good clout.
No, well how many of us know our local policeman?
We did, he used to come into our 
Yes, but how many of us now, know our lo local policeman.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes, how many of us now, yes.
most days.
Have you got the local police?
We don't know.
Yes.
I've never seen one.
We don't know.
Nobody ever tells us.
No, I sometimes see them go right down our street in twos.
There is one, isn't there.
Nearly always looking at the cars.
There's a police car comes up here at twelve o'clock every night.
It tu , it comes up very quietly.
It turns at the top and goes straight.
Well, that's much use from the point of view of getting to know him, is it.
No.
No.
Erm, there's a local policeman, er, in the area around our church, he's come to speak  finish in a little while.
but er,talk about his work.
But it's, I think it's the exception.
Erm.
You never see a policeman at all.
If you were, if you  
And they all say what a very nice man he is, too.
You know, I wonder what would happen, if you went along to the Norfolk Street Police Station and said, will you please give us the name of our local policeman.
I wonder if they would tell you of give you any 
I'm sure they would, yes, I'm sure.
You think they would.
I mean, we we have, er,com what they they call the Community Constable.
Yeah.
Mm
Erm, and, he's name's Keith something,
Mm.
er, and if ever an incident happens in our part of Leicester, and there's a police statement about it, it's usually quoting him.
You know, he's, he's been involved dealing with the case and he's told the press something about what's going on.
Mm.
Wh 
Er, I mean, we have met him, once or twice, but that's as much as I can say, and it's been er su such a span of time, that I don't even know now, whether I would recognise him walking along the street.
Even though I have met him a couple of times.
What would happen if we were to invite a policeman to come and address this group.
I think he'd come.
I think he'd be pleased to do it.
Yes.
Yes, they would.
Well, that's a practical thing they can do, isn't it.
Mm.
Mm.
Well we did  a few years ago.
Mm.
Didn't he.
Did you, mm, mm.
Er, they 
They, they cut down at Norfolk Street.
You know, I mean, it's not manned nearly as often as it used to be.
No, they've cut us down, and different hours.
No, there's the one.
Where we used to live, but, I mean,
on the police, there, and I mean, that's the problem.
They've cut down,
Mm.
Instead of having more, we've got less.
Yeah, that's right.
I think we've been talking about two different interpretations of the word, respect.
In much the same way as people talk about being God fearing.
When when you talk about fearing God, you're not really talking about being frightened of him, you're talking about paying attention and doing what he wants you to do.
And in the same way, interpretation of the word respect, was that you paid attention to the local bobby
Mm.
because you knew he meant business, and he would achieve his end 
And  living in the area with him.
Yes, but there's 
us.
there's another meaning to the word respect, which is what is shown up by the Stoke Newington incident, and other similar incidents, in that, you can only respect somebody if they actually live up to the standards that they actually hold out to the rest of you.
And I mean it, there is nothing worse for someone who is supposed to be upholding the law, to be found not  themselves.
Letting it down.
I agree with that.
And I mean, that, I think that's the sort of respect which is draining away very quickly,
Mm.
You know, with every incident that gets publicised, it weakens their position even more.
Yes, that's the other side of the coin, isn't it, I mean, we we should teach our young people to respect the police, at at the same time, the police should be ready to earn their respect.
Yes.
Quite.
I think most of them are, but it's  
It's up, it's up to them to clean their act up.
It's the minority that
Yeah.
get in papers, and we read all about, I mean it,
It's the same in every situation, isn't it, that the few
It is.
It is.
can spoil it for the many.
Oh, yes.
I think we might remind ourselves that justice begins in Court, not on the street.
No, I think if  
We are not talking about the police, we are talking about justice for all.
If the police start trying to administer justice, in the way of trying, by planting drugs on innocent people, for example.
oh yeah.
while they, well, we can say that the police are being unjust, but the police have nothing to do with justice.
The police are only concerned with catching the offender and delivering him or her to the law so that justice can be done.
That's not strictly true, because in our country, the police are also involved in gathering evidence which is largely put to the service of the prosecution, rather than the defence.
So they an invidious position in this country, that they are not only catching the suspect, but they're also siding against the suspect even before he's gone on trial.
That's right.
This, I think, was the point that  was trying to point out, about the Scottish system and the French system, that they have this independent investigating magistrates structure, so that erm, the police don't so much become involved in one side of the case.
But whatever the police discover, erm, is made available to both sides more readily.
Yeah.
And hopefully, justice is is done.
And if we're gonna start talking about paying the police by results, that's going to encourage them, isn't it, to er, to to press for for for conviction.
Well, this is, this is  point, isn't it,
Yes.
that they're really, they're to arrest first and foremost, they're, they're to arrest the suspect,and bring that person before the er, judging magistrate, or the judge, whatever the case may be, and the, and  has made, made out  that it is a disadvantage therefore, if they are also expected to bring evidence, as, for the prosecution.
That's right.
Mm.
cos you get the situation now, where they, choose not  to charge  a person, because it isn't worth it.
Because they know that by the time he gets to court, he'll be thrown out, and all the time will be wasted,
Mm.
you know.
So  
Is it the magistrate who issues the search warrant, er, and the police go in and search the house for drugs or anything.
Mm.
Is it the magistrate or 
It used to be.
Yeah.
I'm not sure wh g who who grants the warrant, do you.
No.
No.
Used to be the magistrate, at one time, yes.
But I mean, people see the police go in, breaking somebody's door and going in.
Naturally they probably think the police are up to no good.
They probably don't realise wh , they've got er, er, a warrant from the magistrate to go and do that,
Mm.
or evict someone.
The police have to do that.
Can I jump from this, they're all interconnected, over to question of magistrates, one of the questions in the notes, really, it points out that there are about, not quite, but er, about two third of magistrates are men, and about a third women, erm, is there, is that because of history, and shall, because they're are more women than men, I mean logically, because there are more women than men in the community, there should be more women magistrates than men, shouldn't there, on the on the basis of presentation, I take it that, I don't know the figures, but I take it that er, more and more women now are er, being, accepting,the called, of course, to be magistrate, you didn't have any choice once, do you in a way.
No.
You can't volunteer, you have to be, you have to be chosen.
to be chosen, women.
Mm.
Quite a lot of women, on the prosecution side.
Well look,
representatives, I've known three magistrates in my life.
One was a a a business man, the other was er, trade union official, and the other was a housewife, which seemed to me to be badly representative
Yes.
of, if you take that as a as a reasonable example.
The the  variety doesn't make the point, that it is the Chancellor er, who er, the Lord Chancellor, I should say, who who appoints magistrates, but it isn't, that make the point, which I think, is very important, is how do the names get to the Lord Chancellor's office.
Yes, I was, I was going to ask that, try and explain that.
Well, it's bound to be some body, but, I mean, what we  movement, could erm,
That's right.
partition the the Lord Chancellor that we think so and so
That's right.
would be a jolly good magistrate.
But would, would  
You find often, it's the erm, political party, I mean, I know two  and  who were both erm, names put forward by the Labour Party
Yes.
in Rochford and in Huddersfield, you know.
Mm.
That's a point I was going to make, but as far as I can tell in en masse, the main, the main nominated bodies have been of political parties.
Yes.
They often have a very small percentage of the population anyway, and er I'm glad we've brought this matter up, because I think that is something which  needs further investigation, that the the ordinary public and the many little,or the millions of voluntary organisations ought to be encouraged to have a more output in forwarding names.
Yes, quite, I agree.
We ought to be forwarding names.
if there was anybody young enough, for 
I agree.
I don't know what record the Adult Schools have of nominating  
I don't, I doubt whether we've ever nominated anybody,
On Leicestershire.
Nationally.
I would think so.
I would be very surprised if 
It it smacks surely, of of whether these many old boy networks, that we're famous for in this country,
Mm.
I mean, if you don't tell anybody that their, that they can submit names, they're not going to submit names, because they don't think they're eligible to do so,
No, I don't 
and so the whole thing perpetuates itself.
No, I think a lot of the nominations are made by the existing bench 
So in that sense, it's that we're incestuous.
Yeah, yes, it's, it's the old boy network, again, in in a way.
Yeah.
Er, it's  I I maybe wrong about that, I mean.
Can we ca will the Chancellor accept, er, er, er ap an nomination from this group, for instance.
Oh, yes.
Oh, yes.
Oh, yes.
Or, or a street,
Oh, yes.
why shouldn't a street do it.
Would he?
Oh.
Oh, yes.
But.
I didn't realise that, no.
I mean, I don't, we don't know what the process is, of get you know, the step by step until it gets to the Cha Lord Chancellor, do we.
No,
It's obviously civil servants deal deal with it.
What's your view about.
Do you think there should be as many women as men as magistrates?
No, I don't think so.
I mean, put
I think it's
Depends on personality and character.
Yeah,
It's quite im It's quite important in the same way, that it's quite important that we have so few women M Ps.
I mean, I think it, I think it says quite a lot about our society.
I'm not suggesting that erm, women magistrates would necessarily be any more just than men magistrates.
But on the other hand, if they are supposed to be representatives of our society, then there's obviously something wrong, when there are so few women, compared with so few men.
Just as it's wrong that there should be so few women M Ps.
But can
Because we are fifty per cent, if not more so, of the population.
At the same time, if we accept, accept the principle of the equality of the sexes, the proportions no longer matter.
You can't have it both ways.
If you're thinking of something like, administering justice,
I'm thinking general.
No, I, if you let me finish what I'm saying.
There is, everybody has to acknowledge that there is a difference in the interpretation of what constitutes justice  and one only has to see er, the sorts of attitude that are put across by certain judges, as to, erm, rape cases, and abuse cases, and how they, the press would have us believe, pat people over the head and tell them to go away and not do it again.
I mean, I think, there is something there that needs pursuing, I'm not accusing all judges of being, inherently, you know, nutty, or, whatever, but, the number of cases that have come to light in the last few years, whether it's because the press have just decided to home in on them,
Mm.
or whether there is really a situation there, which probably has been going on since time in memorial, that we've only just started to hear about it.
Mm.
Well, you you're, you er,have us believe, er ra raises a very important issue, I think.
I mean, what we know about what goes off in the courts,i is is entirely dependent on which particular reporter happens to be reporting.
Yes.
Er, I mean, if if you take an an average case, which may last three or four days, and there's a lot of evidence of one sort or another, that's heard and weighed, and considered, and it it boiled down to one paragraph in the newspaper, and who, who chooses to its, to report wh , to report which, the reporter.
Mm.
You know, if if he's got a particular bias, then he'll, he'll weight his report in the favour of that bias.
Irrespective of wh what's gone on over the whole period of the trial.
So it's very deli dangerous, I think, to take too much notice of what appears in the press.
It's it's the only thing you have 
It's the only thing you have, but if you're
television  
If you were in court, and under trial, you might come to an entirely different conclusion.
And in any case, it's most likely that it was a completely misleading headline in the press.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Can I 
I would still find it very hard to believe that any evidence of mitigation would justify a non-custodial sentence, to someone who has broken twenty-three bones in their child's body.
Mm.
Mm.
Mm.
A babe in arms.
What sort of mitigation could justify that?
Nothing.
Well, that's amazing, and that's an, that's an extreme case, I think, I don't  
There is no mitigation for things like that.
They should be, I think they should be finished.
We ought not to have to keep them until they're about seventy, in nearly the lap of luxury.
Just top 'em, get rid of 'em.
What happens to Christian mercy then.
Mm.
What happens to Christian mercy then, and hope that rehabilitation 
to do it.
See them off.
If I was, er, at the time of Elizabeth, she'd had had their head off.
I I wouldn't have them hanging out, and we've got to keep them.
I don't believe in 'em.
I believe in seeing them off.
Getting rid of 'em.
I mean, they are scum, after all, people that do these dreadful things.
Well, apparently, then,
They're not fit to be alive,
apparently so, but as, as er, says,
but as far as I'm concerned, they not.
they they could have their reasons.
We might have caused it to happen to them.
When I say, we, I mean, you know
Mm.
what they've experienced previously in society.
In society.
Society, yes.
Society.
Can I, can I connect this with the notes, because it does raise the point about er, the judges, whether they should have retired er earlier, and it also involves another matter, I think.
They have come in for quite a bit of stick, particularly when they've been dealing with rape cases.
Er, of course, it is, the er, it is a self perpetu situation where, the law lords are are the highest er, the highest level of justice in the land, aren't they, the law lords,
Mm.
and the one very much questions er, really their suitability for taking some decisions, and I would like to know your views about, where you've got rape cases, wouldn't it make sense if there was a a male judge and a female judge taking the case.
Now I've not seen this suggested, but it seems to me a fair way of doing it.
It should be, I think it should be so.
It should be more than one person deciding it.
I think.
Mm.
Are we thinking of the court of appeal  or are we thinking of a trial by jury.
Now there's a difference here,
Yes.
soon as you start talking about more than one judge, you you getting into the appeal court area, aren't you.
I I was thinking of it now, as as normally as a normal crown court case,
Mm.
and having two, where normally reside over a judge, I mean, there aren't many women judges yet, but there are qui er increasing numbers,
Oh, yes.
and I think in rape, it does seem to me, quite absurd that an old gentleman of seventy-five should be judging it.
Mm.
Now erm,
Yeah.
knowing, knowing the tremendous changes in our society.
He can't really be in touch with the twenty years olds.
Do we, do we think that generally speaking, our judges  are in touch with public opinion, generally.
No.
Or is it, is it that they've become a sort of exclusive club, arising al almost always through the ranks of the of the law, and gradually, gradually got withdrawn from the way that ordinary people think and feel.
I I I I think that there is a peculiar problem here, and, and that is, that whilst I will fully agree with  that judges should be kept or keep in touch with the usages and habits of modern society and how it's changing.
At the same time, it is essentially, if justice is to be done, and this is what we're talking about, that a judge should also be detached and how you can balance detachment with knowledge.
Mm.
It's not easy.
Mm.
It's not easy, is it.
No, it's not easy, by any means.
But the de the  
has arisen where a judge has passed a personal view about a woman, hasn't he.
This is what's caused the trouble.
Yeah.
Yes.
He's not been given a legal decision, he's passed an opinion, saying oh, this, this woman, was, you know, encouraging the man, and things like that, and that's what gets people's backs up, I think.
One wonders, how much
erm, and to use a word that would be used in other areas, retraining goes on, amongst the judiciary or do they just get to this pinnacle, and then hold it against all comers, until they choose to retire, I mean, in any other, er, job where you have a peculiar expertise, like that, you would be expected to update yourself, to keep up with the trends, you would be sent away to conferences, and retraining courses.
I think that does happen.
I mean, I I I I wonder how much does go on, of that nature.
Well, something goes on, I I'm I do know,th there was a reference to it recently.
Mhm.
About a judges, I think it's a one-day, just a one-day seminar, or something like that.
Mm.
Where they have retraining, but it didn't amount to very much.
I didn't think.
But but at the same time,
disappointed, for one thing because he is experienced,
Yeah.
he's worked he's way up through various branches of the law, he he's practically certain to being a Q C and then a recorder, you know
Mm.
worked up the ladder, but, what's required in a judge, I would say,put putting for the moment, what we've just been discussing on the side, that is, any question of bias, or sex bias,a judge is there in court, to perform an intellectual .
He is there to listen to the evidence, to present the evidence to the jury, the jury then, say, whether the  man in the dock or woman in the dock or whatever's in the dock, is guilty or not guilty.
The judge then, bearing in mind, all that he knows, and all that he's been told about the guilty person, proceeds to pass sentence.
Now I say, that that is an intellectual exercise, as soon as it becomes an emotional exercise
that's the end of justice.
That's right, yeah.
Yeah.
Or it could be the beginning of justice and the end of administering the law, because, how much of what goes on in court is actually administering the law, rather than determining natural justice.
I mean, you have had cases, of people who have killed somebody.
Perhaps they've given an overdose of pain killers, or sleeping tablets to an ailing elderly relative.
Perhaps at that requ , perhaps at that relatives request.
Now in the eyes of the law, they have committed a crime, but if you put that situation before a jury, and even though the judge may instruct the jury, a crime has been committed, you must find them guilty, the jury's inclination will probably be to say, natural justice, you, that you you done what was required of you, that you don't deserve to be either convicted or sent to prison for it.
Yes, right.
So what, there is a difference between administering the letter of the law and and the real justice of a particular situation, being achieved.
Mm.
Mm.
Of course, the the essential thing in a case like that is , that it's been established who administered the tablets and why or whatever, and why they ad why why they administered them, isn't it.
Mhm.
This is what, this is what we're looking for, we're not thinking now particularly about either what recommendation they, the jury foreman makes, or what sentence the judge passes, the fact is that the truth or one would hope so, has been established.
Then you can start to think about, in what way can justice best be done in this particular case.
I say it, we're we're all the time, we're we're mixing up justice and law and all kinds of things.
Mm.
It's very difficult to separate them, isn't it.
Oh, yes.
Yeah.
It is.
Oh, yes.
Could I, what, what is not, touched on in the notes, but is, I I think the other side of the coin  is that, if justice means treating people fairly, this is on the basis of treating the accused fairly.
But what about people who had the wrong, inflicted upon them, isn't that equally a matter of justice 
we only now seem to be getting round to recognising it.
Recognising, that's true.
That's right, yes 
It isn't brought up in these notes, which I 
I mean, who funds them, are they completely charitable, or
No.
No.
Some of it comes from the Government, and some from the local authorities, but it's been cut back.
Yeah.
done it with probation service, paid money to them, but now, they can't do that, they've got to give the money for the prisoners, er, not for the, not for the victims of the crime.
That's right.
Mm.
Which seems all wrong.
I think there is some room for suggesting that, erm, in certain circumstances, the actual perpetrator of the crime, could make retribution to the victim.
You know, where where it's been a case of vandalism or petty theft.
Yeah
But you also have to take into consideration, the feelings of victims, I mean, it it would have to be, erm,
only with their agreement,
Yes.
I mean, if somebody was petrified of setting eyes on the youth again, then it wouldn't do them much good, for him to be sent to make good what damage he's done to their house, or,
Yes, it wants very delicate handling, I suppose.
Well, the this friend of ours, the er, Director of Victims and Crime, er, we we have somebody at church who was burgled.
She is an elderly person, lives on her own, and er, he made a suggestion to her that she went with him to prison, to face the man, well, I don't whether it was the actual man, but men that had done burglaries, you see.
And she said she'd go, in fact, I I I had  fellowship on, because, remember we started on that Tuesday, I said, well, you'll all be surprised to know that  going to prison tomorrow.
er, but she went, and she was, she said, that the men that she faced, one out of those, had never realised what he'd done, the trauma he'd caused, that 
what he was getting, because he'd never given a thought to the people he was erm, burgling.
And when  said what it had meant to her, loosing personal jewellery and things that was sentimental value to, you know, the family that had died, and they were the only things she'd got to remember them by, and so on.
He really was brought up in his tracks, and  said, when he brought her home, well if that only made one person think, it's been worth it.
Mm.
So,
you know, but he's he's very bitter er, he's an ex-policeman, himself.
And he's very bitter about the way the victims are treated.
Think about it and 
The way the criminals are treated too.
Yes, yes, that's right.
In fact, he was telling me only the other week, about the the number of criminals that he knows, they're serving their they're serving sentences, and they're only  one thing they're longing and hoping for, it is get out, so they can knock another old lady down,
Mm.
and and go and get some money and sell it, sell it in the car boot sale, and get back to prison all over again.
Nothing to worry about, no expenses, everything's taken care of, the only thing they haven't got is their freedom, but they've got everything else.
Mm.
They've got 
more than the people have outside.
Yes.
I think, I think most criminals, I mean, there there must be one or two who er er, too dangerous to be let loose on society,
Yeah.
but I think most criminals would probably benefit more, from being made to face, er,
Yes.
what they've done to society.
I mean, if somebody can't actually go back to the person they've harmed in a in a one to one situation, there's no reason why they shouldn't be doing some other form of community service.
That's right, I agree.
cos, as you say, if if they do have to come to grips with their fellow man,to be at least some of them who are going to be impressed by that.
But how you can expect people to become more sociable by just being, you know, shut behind closed walls, and and not having to actually, fend for themselves and cope with life outside prison walls.
It doesn't seem to make sense to me.
I think there's also the type  very often these people have left a family, a wife and children behind
Mm.
and maybe they're not facing up to that responsibility.
Mm.
It could be seen in some cases as, maybe escapism,we don't give enough thought to the wife and kids who've got dad er, er, in in court.
No that, that's very true.
but I wonder having said that justice is a matter of treating people fairly, not only punishing them, presumably, in a fair way, deciding what is a fair way to treat, justly whether a person who's done something anti-social, is part of that fairness, trying to get them to see the the evil that they've done.
But, or is it just punishment, full top.
no you can't lock them up and throw away the key, that's that's, in a Christian society, that's not on, you've got to do something to help them to rehabilitate themselves.
want to repent, for what they done.
But how far that that goes in prisons, I I don't know.
But there are people that go into prisons, aren't there, to to help them, I mean, there are councillors, and er, and people going into to give them interest in life,I mean, goes into teaching erm, er,Park Parkway, doesn't he.
But it's
again one of those things which appear to be under financial pressure, I mean, one of our most respected adult school members at national level was actually awarded the M B E for his work in Wandsworth Prison, where he ran an adult school for thirty years.
Erm, he finally had to shut the adult school, not because the prisoners weren't interested in in attending any more, but because the prison officers and the governor weren't able to provide the man-power to to cover the existence of that class.
Mm.
Erm.
There's a little bit more to it than that.
Yes, there is,
Yes.
Yes.
Oh aye.
It was cos the prison, the warders, resented somebody going in and and doing this  for them.
If anybody went into the prison, they had to be paid.
They weren't having any volunteers in.
Th this this was putting it very simply.
Mm.
Mm.
I mean, if anyone saw that television programme a couple of weeks ago, about those prisoners who put on Guys and Dolls,
Mm.
where they were, the the prisoners were the chorus and and they had a local operatic society made the 
erm, and  they did remarkably well, you know, taking it over, they were really very acceptable at the end, but the whole programme had this sub-plot of how antagonistic most of the prison officers were, not all of them, cos they obviously has some support to keep it going, but a lot of them were antagonistic towards what was going on, and not only that but just the the prison system, you know, this chap got transferred from one prison to another, when he was mid-way through rehearsals, you know, I mean why shouldn't he have stayed there,
Mm.
and completed this, this wonderful piece of thera therapy, which it was for him,
Mm.
before they transferred him to another prison.
I mean,wh what was the common sense of that sort of bureaucracy stamping on people.
Well he must have been transferred for some reason or other.
Oh, why.
We 
Well, that's something we don't know.
There may have been other prisoners.
I mean they wouldn't  willy nilly, would they.
Perhaps he was being treated badly.
I mean, in fact, in fact.
The implication was that there was no flexibility in the decision, it could have been held back, perhaps because he was involved in this, if you like, opportunity of a lifetime.
Mm.
Well, not to so long, er, I was going to Hampshire's to get bread, and as I was going in, and this fellow was coming out, he hands with me.
Ooh,
And then he got, he got on the bus, it was a Midland Red and it was going to erm, er where, it was going out of town, anyway, and he shook hands with the driver, because I couldn't help but, you know, notice what he was doing, and when I got  when I was in the shop and getting the bread, the girls in there were telling me that he shook hands with them, because he had just got out of prison, and he was a born again Christian.
Ah.
Mm.
And that's what had happened to him in the prison, because someone said, I wonder how long that will last.
Yeah.
I'm afraid I'm a bit of a cynic
Mm.
But that's what he was saying.
Mm.
Can I touch on another thing, which I think, hasn't been mentioned in the notes, but is very much in our minds.
That is the long period where people are remanded.
There has been some very unfortunate suicides,
Oh, yes, yeah.
which is all our responsibility, presumably that delay is because we aren't providing sufficient judges or sufficient services to er, er, to try them in a much shorter term.
That seems to me, a very evil thing, if people are kept in prison for months before they've been found guilty.
For years sometimes.
No, they've not even been charged.
No, they're, they're 
I mean, they're not, they're not criminals,
In the eyes of the law, they're innocent until they're proved guilty.
They're innocent until they're proven guilty.
Is it the fault, is it the fault of the judicial system, though, or is it the fault of the lawyers.
It's partly the fault of the lawyers, it's partly the fault of the police, who have lots and lots and lots of paperwork to do
Mm.
before these, before these cases can be brought to the court.
And an an and very, very often 
But in Scotland they seem to manage to  with them.
they haven't got the man-power to to do all this paperwork.
That, that is one reason for the delay.
Another reason is, the lawyers.
used to say, that cases used to come before her court in in Rochdale, and it was an absolute disgrace  that they ever came to court.
And that, the lawyers would spin them out
Mm.
Yeah.
for about three days, when they could have been one day.
cos they're being paid by the hour.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Said it was an absolute disgrace.
Yeah.
Er, this refers back to something  said, a little while ago, talking about the fitness of judges, having come up through the legal system.
I mean, having heard criticisms of how lawyers behave, and having heard people say, how can you defend someone when you know jolly well they're guilty and this kind of thing.
How does that fit you to become a judge.
If you've actually be wangling system on your way up, which is what most of us seem to do at one time or another.
Oh, they do, they definitely could do.
Mm.
I think regarding the number of people who are in prison, whether on remand or otherwise, erm, reminds me of something that that I keep noticing, either hear it on the radio or in the paper.
But somebody has been sent to prison, they are the sort of person who you would think of, should never be sent to prison, somebody who has diddled his firm out of a couple of thousand.
That man is not a menace to society, and there are a great many other similar people who should never be in prison.
I don't know, I don't know how you could deal with them justly.
How any reparation could be made, and talking about reparation, this business over absent fathers, er, has just killed that idea of us getting more and more  in that kind of way, but I'm sure there are many people, and I'm not thinking about those who have been, committed an act of violence, and said, well they might do it again, but say, I'm pretty sure people who have been committed in effect of what you could call civil crimes, that is putting their hand in the drawer, should never be in prison.
If anybody wants to employ them, they should know before, and then employ them at their own risk.
And they can, I mean, they can even continue with original employer and work as you might say, for nothing, until they've paid back, what they took.
Well, that's  could do.
Yes, that's right.
There's plenty of room for that sort of thing.
Mm.
I mean, that flies in the face of all the current pressures, all of the current political  about, if you're a naughty boy, into prison you go, and for the longer the better.
And now we have another er, sub-crop of people who have been discharged into community care from mental hospitals,
Mm.
Mm.
Who are not sufficiently in control of themselves to take their medication, and then they become paranoid or manic, and they, erm, commit social crimes again, and so they're
part part of the treadmill, too.
Mm.
They're not criminals in the real sense of criminality, but that's where they end up, because that's the only dustbin they can send them to.
Mm.
Who was it that said, The Law's an Ass.
Mm.
one thing, times 
No.
It was the Beadle in Oliver Twist.
Oh, yes, yes, that's right.
Mr Bumble.
Times running out, but the local thing, not the local, that's the thing, er, appeared on on, er, the news tonight, er what happened, announced by  Home Secretary, I think it was, there, I'm not quite sure, where children under  er, children under sixteen, if they er, do not er, abide by the instruction of the juvenile court where they have conducted misdemeanours.
The parents can now be fined up to a thousand pounds for the children, because they haven't carried out the instructions of the court.
That seems to me, to need a lot of thinking about, because if you've got difficult children,ra the last thing we want to do is think you've got a thousand pound fine or so.
Anyway, if you can't pay it, what do they do with them.
Yeah.
I I'm, this doesn't seem to me, a very intelligent way, I I, somehow or other you've got to get the parents, win them to behave properly towards the children without the threat of a heavy fine on their head.
I mean, there's a, I mean, the consequence of a heavy fine, the next thing is they'll be in prison, cos they haven't paid a fine.
Where does it end.
But the story goes that money speaks, and some people, some parents, if they get hit in the pocket, will probably take more notice of their child,
Yeah.
than they've taken for months or years before.
Yes, I think that's  If you, if your dog goes and bites somebody,an , you're in trouble, because you've let him get out of control, and 
Yes.
Mm.
but if your child goes and burns a a school down, he he gets away with it.
Mm.
That doesn't seem right to me.
Yeah.
They shouldn't, they shouldn't.
Parents should be held to some degree, not necessarily to a tune of a thousand pound, but they should be made in some way, to be responsible for their 
Yeah, but I agree, it's just a question of the way you do it.
It seems a very clumsy way of, just thinking of terms of financial.
Well, well it's it's what, as  has said, it's
it's the best way to get people.
Pay up.
They are some parents that do   bringing out a book.
Oh aye, well 
will will know, and my daughter says, if she's got children that are a real problem, she'd want to know what their homes like, and that usually gives an answer, which you  too.
Mm.
Erm, we've got a friend that was erm, a store detective, in fact, it's the wife of  the er, Victim of Crime Support Group.
She was a store detective and she caught a child, at shop-lifting.
The the ruling is, that if you catch a child you take her and keep her in the office and send for the parents.
Well she sent for, her mother came, and er, when she came in, explained to her, why she'd sent for her, and she smacked the child across the face, and  said, there was no need to do that.
She said, that's for getting caught.
Oh.
Yeah.
Well, now what, now what chance does that child have of of growing up.
Now those sort of parents need  something  to 
I mean  yes, that's right.
to catch them.
I mean, in a much more, erm, a le a less severe example, but we're having a Road Safety Week, at school, this week, erm, and it was my class's turn, yesterday afternoon, so I was just there keeping a watching brief with my my children while the, road safety representative was talking to them, and she put them us through the usual hoops of erm, did any of them play on the roadside  un unattended.
Had any of them crossed the road on their own.
Bearing in mind that they're only six and seven in my class, er, and then talking erm, about how they travelled in cars, and and how many of them had ridden in the front seat, er, and most of them put their hands up, and I mean, the recommendation is that if you're under twelve years of age, you should never ride in the front seat, and so on and so forth.
Erm, and I mean, I I was just cringing after that, hearing all these, minor horror stories coming coming out, and then to cap it all, one little girl put her hand up and said erm, my daddy was stopped by the police once for not wearing his seat-belt.
Presumably he was driving.
Mm.
Erm, er, and  he got a ticket, and he had to, you know, you have to take this ticket to the Police Station for not having worn his  seat-belt.
Erm, so he always looks out for police cars now, but he still won't wear his belt.
Oh.
So I mean, several of us, as teachers, have got together today, and said, it's not the children who need road safety instructions it's the parents,
The adults  
and in the same way, if if they're being given that example,
Mm.
of how to worm their way round things all the time, rather than follow the rules.
Mm, yes, that's right.
Well, they're going to be brought up dishonest.
It starts small, and it gets big.
Yes, it does, yeah.
Well, I  
I mean, we all bends the rules to our own advantage from time to time, I mean, nobody pretends they're whiter than white.
But, there are vary degrees in everything, aren't there.
Yeah.
Well, the concern is to to er, punish the children in a way, that they will realise they're going to wrong way.
But at the moment, you feel as if they're getting patted on the head  and it's giving them a push down the wrong way.
I feel very sorry for for the parents of Jamie 
Oh, yes.
I mean, who can help but feel other than sorry for them, but for them to to burst out and say that those two little boys, which is all that they are,
Mm.
let's face it, you know, deserve to be locked up for the rest of their natural lives.
That's not going to serve any purpose whatsoever 
right, no.
On the other hand,
unless they get help while they're locked up,
Mm.
you know,
They won't be any better.
they won't be any better.
That's the whole point, isn't it.
In any case, even though they chose a a minimum sentence, they'll be twenty or twenty one  yeah, yeah.
It's it's as long as they've lived already, practically, yes.
But it's perfectly natural, isn't it.
Oh, yes.
Oh, absolutely.
I mean, it's perfectly natural for his parents to be like that.
Oh yeah, yeah, oh yeah.
I mean, wouldn't we think.
Oh certainly would.
I mean, we would, we would,probably want to come out and  you know.
Coming down to children er, are doing wilful damage and er graffiti and all this sort of thing.
I do think when they're caught, they are, to me it seems as if they ought to be made to clear up some graffiti and and realise what they're doing because, I don't think half the time, they realise the the upset they cause.
No.
We had some little boys at the end there, throwing sticks up at a chestnut tree, or you know,
Oh yeah.
and erm, I went along, look at all this mess.
Oh, we're we're clear it up.
I said, erm, what you doing throwing sticks up, where where the stick.
Oh, it's up there,it fell down and erm, went along and picked it up, so I took it off them, and said, how would you like it if I threw sticks at you,anyway, they said, oh I'm sorry, you know, they they sort of cleared everything up and went off.
But, I mean, often when you go and approach children like that, you find, that you know, all you get is a mouthful of 
Yes, that's true, yes.
I'm afraid, you know, that it's it's a shame because of, I I feel that  if they are stopped like that, to be talked to and quietly and point out, you know, what they
Mm.
doing wrong, and that, you know, they'll go away, but so often these days, of course, the parents all they all take no notice, yeah, silly old fool, you know.
Mm.
Well, I was going to say, at  last year at my friends house, and they have all open front, beautiful frontage, nice big house they are, and two kiddies on bikes started riding down the, across the front gardens instead of on the pavement, or the road, and she said to me, oh, I'll stop this, I'm not having this.
cos there was lawns and flower beds and everything, you see, and they was going over it.
And  her husband, go and give them a clout, so she said, no, and she walked up to them, and quietly said,
Mm.
Where do you live?
They told her where they lived, just up the road.
Well, she said, I think I'll get my bike out,
Yes.
Yes.
and come and ride over your mother's front garden and and see what she thinks.
Mm.
And they said, oh no.
She said, oh yes.
This is where I live and you're running all over it like this and spoiling it.
I shall have to come and do it to your mother and see what she thinks.
And they they went away like lambs, you know, really they was shocked.
Their their mother's front lawn could very well been a wilderness.
That's true.
couldn't spoil it if you tried.
No, that's true.
Oh.
Well, I think 
she said, she had found when dealing with some of these of kids up where they live, that erm, a quiet talk there and then, only talk.
Well, yes.
Better than if you shout.
Better than if you shout.
I think that depends on where you live.
Well, there very posh houses in the road.
Yeah, but I mean, can you imagine paying for that, some of the lot that live on
Yeah.
an estate, you know.
Well, I 
Well, it's worth trying, anyway, I mean.
I came out of church one day, to do some visiting, from the over sixties, and there was a boy with a a great chunk of rock in his hand, and he was looking at the window.
Well, we've had an awful lot of damage to the church.
In fact, on all the windows wired up now, and I walked up to him, and I just said, would you like to give to me, son, and he turned round and looked at me, and to my great surprise he gave it to me.
I didn't know what to do with it.
so surprised 
But I said, well look, I think I'd better put it in my bag, don't you, it won't do any harm there.
And, he looked at me, and said, I'm sorry.
But then behind me came a lot of other lads,
Yeah.
You great fool, what did you do that for.
And when they're all together, that that's when the problem is.
That's when the trouble starts.
That's that's when the trouble is.
Mm.
Mm.
But that's the same with any group, whatever age, isn't it.
you're being encouraged from being 
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, yes.
But I, I mean, I I think it's true to say, that ninety-nine times out of a hundred, if you do approach these so-called yobs as if they're human beings, they usually react like human beings.
It pays to do it 
It does, yeah.
I think so.
It is not easy to approach them in a situation like that, without being angry.
No.
No.
the clue, I I'm sure if I made a mistakes like that, it's because it's, you know, maybe angry and I made the wrong approach.
Mm.
I must tell you that when we lived in Morley, in, up in Yorkshire, we erm, we were having trouble with some yobbos coming up from Leeds, you know, and we had, there was an old sergeant in in Morley, you know,for years, and tall.
Well, very well known, I can't remember his name now, but he he had two methods of getting rid of them, erm.
One they were going into a pub, and going into the toilets, you know, making a, so he had a a policeman waiting in and the toilets, for them you see, and the o one other, notable occasion he was seen chasing them down the main street in Morley, he got his cape on, you see,
he was boom, whacking them with his cape, sort of chasing them out of town, you know, and I must say, they never came back.
It's like a matador
Yes.
I know.
Yes.
Well 
The subject was, was er, Justice for All, Fact or Fiction.
and we had a bit of both.
Would, would.
We they guessed, has anyone guessed.
Yeah, well, I might.
You you know, then.
Yeah.
Would you like to hear the cutting.
It's only fifty old years old.
Mm.
But it's in my little green bag somewhere, do you know where it is.
Put on floor here, my little green plastic bag.
You should read it, it's f 

I'd like to start off by reading a well, a fairly well known passage, it's in Luke, chapter twenty three  dealing with the part of the crucifixion of Jesus  Luke, chapter twenty three.
I'm gonna read from  verse thirty two.
Luke, chapter twenty three, and reading from verse thirty two.
It's a , during the course of the time of the crucifixion, Jesus is on the cross, and it says there  there were two others also who were criminals were being led away to be put to death with Jesus  and they came to place called the skull, there they crucified him  and the criminals, one on the right, and the other on the left.
But Jesus was saying, father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing.
And they cast lots, dividing up his garments among themselves.
And the people stood by looking on  and even the rulers were sneering at him  Excuse me.
And even the rulers were sneering at him saying, he saved others, let him save himself  if this is the Christ of God!
His chosen one.
The soldiers also mocked him.
Coming up to him offering him sour wine  and saying  if you're the King of the Jews save yourself.
Now, there was also an inscription above him, this is the King of the Jews.
And one of the criminals who was hanged there was hurling abuse at him saying, you are not the Christ!
Save yourself and us.
But the other answered, and rebuking him said, do you not even fear God since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
And we indeed, justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds, but this man has done nothing wrong.
And he was saying, and er he was saying, Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom.
Jesus said to him, truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise.
I wonder if you have ever been in that  awful position of  facing what you thought was certain death.
Perhaps you were seriously ill  and er, there seemed little hope of your recovery.
Perhaps you were facing some danger, some, some risk  and it seemed almost certain that short of a miracle you were gonna die.
And I wonder what sort of thoughts would have been going through your mind.
Maybe we , it may well be that you were with other people, I wonder what sort of things if you were in a condition of  speaking , what sort of things you would have been saying to them.
Now, I suppose for most of us,bu bu because of the very fact we're here this morning  they have been few and far  between , such experiences.
Perhaps, what is more common is that, we may have spent time with someone who was dying, their last few hours, their few minutes.
If they were not unconscious, I wonder what sort of conversation would be going on between us and them.
What sort of things would we, would we have been saying?
What would we be asking them?
Well, in this passage that we've been reading, we have just such a conversation, two men who are on the verge of death.
Death, it can only be hours away for both of them  and here they have this conversation.
It was in that sense one of the strangest interviews that anybody ever had with Jesus.
Not only is the a sto , the account here of a, a death bed conversion, but the one who is saving is also in the process of dying.
Jesus had had many interviews with people, we've looked at some of them over these past few weeks.
The time when he met with Nicodemus the religious leader, the time he went out of his way to meet with a woman of Somaria in her dire need.
The other occasion that we looked that, er a week or so back when he called down Zaccheus, from that tree in which he was hiding  last week his judge, Pilate  but of all of those interviews and th the many others that we haven't looked at, this surely must one of the strangest, as Jesus himself is in the process of dying  and as he is dying he is confronted with another person who has a need.
But Jesus, you're need is as great as anybody else's, your pain, your suffering, your physical suffering was every bit as great as those around you, why have you bothered with others?
Isn't that so often our story?
When we are in need we can forget all about other people.
It doesn't matter their need  it's poor me!
What about me?
What about my need?
What about my requirements?
What about my suffering?
But we see here how Jesus, apart from anything else, deals with his own suffering, he deals with it by ministering to the needs of other people.
And this surely then, must be one of the most strange  and one of the most wonderful interviews that our Lord ever had when he was here on earth  with this dying thief.
But he was more than a thief, he was a, he was a re , he was a rebel, he was a terrorist  or a freedom fighter, depending which way you wanted to look at it, and he was dying for his crimes  but he wasn't alone, because there there was this man that we have been talking, there was Jesus, and there was another one, another criminal on the other side.
And we find that, this is all in keeping with what God had promised.
All there in, in line with his prophecy, way back in Isaiah chapter fifty three, it tells us that he was numbered with the transgressors, that he died with sinful men, with with law breakers, and here it is, it's happening right in front of th the very eyes of the Jewish leaders and the Jewish authorities.
Our Lord's intention in coming into the world was to  save men and women, to seek out and to save sinners.
Remember, thirty odd years previous to this event, the word had come  to Mary, his mother, to Joseph  you will call his name Jesus  because he will save his people from their sins.
And later on writing to Timothy, the apostle Paul in the first chapter of the first book in verse fifteen, he says,it is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance that Christ Jesus came in to the world to save sinners .
This was his purpose, this was his reason for coming into the world, not to be a good man, not to be a, er a great leader, not to give us some model that we can, you know, plan our life out and try and lie up to his standards, he says I have come to give my life as a ransom, I have come to save and to seek that which was lost.
And here, in this incident, as he himself is dying and in his physical pain and torment, is carrying out this very work of seeking out and saving those who will turn to him, those who will put their trust in him  he is saving the lost.
And we see in a wonderful way how great the compassion of Jesus was, and is  in reaching out and rescuing those who are lost.
Here we see our Lord suffering the most terrible agony, and yet in the midst of his own sorrow and pain and and torment, he thinks of this dying thief and extends his grace and his mercy to him.
Perhaps the book Lamentations is not the book you normally turn to to find words of encouragement, but they're a tremendous encouragements to be found in it.
Listen what the prophet says there in the third chapter, he says,this I recall to my mind , and he's talking about the time of his own affliction, the time when he is going through it, the time when nobody loves him, the time when everybody's against him, when he's suffering and he's in pain, the time when life is full of bitterness for him, he says  this I recall to my mind therefore I have hope.
The Lord's loving kindness indeed never cease for his compassions never fail .
And here Jesus is demonstrating that.
His compassions never fail.
His loving kindnesses, they never cease.
Here in his dying hour Jesus is showing that in reaching out to this man.
But as we said the other week th the deepest, the most important significance of what Jesus did then, of what Jesus said then  is not just of the historical account, but that he is able and willing to say and to do exactly the same today in your experience and in mine.
What he did for that man on the cross, he's ready and willing to do for every one of us.
The incident may have happened nineteen hundred years ago  there's the old hymn, the verse reminds us, picks out that very story and it says,the dying thief rejoice to see that fountain in his day, and there may I, though  he wash all my sins away .
And that verse from William Cooper's hymn, it takes up that great historical event.
That tremendous happening in that man's life, and it links it with he present and it applies to you and to me and says, this can be our experience as well.
So let's just, as we hurry along this morning notice several things about this interview that this man had with Jesus.
I'm never quite surely really, to be honest, whether these individuals had an interview with Jesus, or Jesus had an interview with them.
Because, whether they sought out Jesus or whether they thought they were doing the  the probing and the questioning, really it was Jesus who was in charge of the interview.
You may have watched er, certain chat shows on the, on the television, or heard them on the radio, and er depending who the person being interviewed is, very often it actually changes, and it's the interviewer who is really being put through it  it's the, it's the person being interviewed who is in charge of the situation and that was the case here with Jesus.
But let's just notice two or three things i in this particular interview.
The first thing that we see, and it's so obvious, is that the way of salvation is so wondrously simple!
It couldn't be easier!
You know there are so many people who think it is hard to get saved, who think it is hard to come to Christ, and to become a Christian.
Well the problem is, you see, the devil has blinded their eyes, he had blinded the eyes of men and women so that they think  that they can't do this, but what has actual happened, Paul tells us,i i in, in Corinthians in the first er, in Two Corinthians in chapter four, and verse four, he says,the God of this world has blinded the eyes of the unbelieving that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God .
And there is this shroud, this covering, but the thing is, God takes that away so that we can see.
And so it's not difficult to become a Christian, it is not hard to get saved.
Sometimes, as Christians, we are guilty of making it difficult for people to become Christians.
We put all sorts of rules in, we we make them undergo various periods of er,o of probation before we're wor , we've we're, we're willing to call them Christians.
Remember the Philippine jailer, he cried out there to the apostle Paul who was, er in jail there with Silas they, they'd been that tremendous earthquake, and they were released, all their fetters was was were broken, and the prisoners were all, could all have escaped!
And the Je , the Philippine jailer, he cries out a question which, I'm sure he doesn't even know what he means when he calls it out, he's not thinking of heaven, he's not thinking of the future life, he's not thinking of having his sins dealt with, but he just cries out, what must I do to be saved?
And the apostle Paul he gets open the scrolls and he starts in Genesis and he explains the plan of salvation, and he tells him what he's gotta do, and he explains all the requirements, and about three or four hours later the man's mind is completely blurred, he doesn't understand a word of it, it's gone way beyond him, course Paul doesn't do that, he shoots back the answer straight away, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.
And when we introduce anything more than that  we are actually setting up obstacles to people becoming Christians.
Reduce down it's glorious simplicity.
It is a case of believing on Jesus Christ.
There's a whole load more that follows after that, but the, but the follows doesn't get us saved!
The thing that gets us saved, the thing that makes us a new creation in Christ, the thing that makes us a Christian is putting our trust in Jesus Christ, believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.
So it is not difficult to become a Christian, it is so very simple!
God has made the way so plain and so easy understand.
Way back in Isaiah in thirty fifth chapter, the er, the prophet there gives a little picture, and he uses the illustration, he says  this way is so plain, it's so simple, he said that even the wayfaring man, the traveller, though he is a fool, he doesn't need to make any mistakes in it, he doesn't need to err in the way, it is so simple, it is so easily understood .
See exactly how the Lord saved this man.
He was simply saved by asking the Lord to save him, that's all he had to do.
Lord remember me when you come in your kingdom!
I don't suppose for one moment that man fully understood the import of what he was saying.
He didn't know, he couldn't give you a theological explanation of what the kingdom of God was.
I don't suppose he ever, ever understood it.
He didn't live long enough to understand it.
But he just calls out, it's a cry of help!
Lord help me!
Lord save me!
Lord rescue me!
And the answer comes, you'll be with me today in paradise from Jesus.
Paul again when he's writing to Romans in chapter ten  verse twelve and thirteen, he says,there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is over all.
Abounding in riches to for all who call upon him.
For whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved .
And that's all it is.
Calling out and being rescued.
Now, the important thing that we see there in being rescued, is that you are totally dependent on the rescuer.
I remember, when I was doing my lifesaving certificates, that one of the very first things that we learnt, was  that you have to, as the life sa , the life saver, you had to be in charge of the situation.
Don't expect them to help you, because all their help will be a hindrance.
Don't let them help you.
And so if you swam up to somebody who was in difficulty, and you approach them from the front their automatic reaction is to throw their arms around you, don't let them do it!
Because they'll drown  themself and bring you down  with them.
And some, as it meant, if that, if they had done that you actually have to put your foot in their sto , chest, or their stomach and push them away from you, and swim around and come at them from the back.
Because you had to do the rescuing.
Once they started doing anything there was trouble.
And this is it, this plan of salvation that is so simple.
He has got to do the rescuing.
The minute we try to do anything we're in trouble!
We make a mess of it!
It is all of him.
Lord, you remember me, I can't do anything for myself, will you remember me?
And Jesus says, yes, you'll be with me in paradise.
So what happened?
He felt and confessed his need of salvation.
He believed the Lord could and would save him, and he committed himself to the Lord and trusted him to save him.
And that is what salvation is.
That is what it is.
Our need, believing in the Lord and committing our way to him.
And that's the only way we can be saved.
There is no other way.
It is as simple, as glorious and as wonderful as that!
As we've already read, whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Have we called on him?
Have we trusted him?
Have we put our confidence in him.
Then we see again, that, no matter how great the need, it didn't make any difference.
The vilest sin, or the worst offender, the worst person could be saved.
I was speaking to somebody about this er, a few days ago, and you know they said erm  I said, in a way that doesn't really apply today, because none of us like to think we're bad.
We all like to think we're good.
But it doesn't matter whether we're good, or whether we're bad  we all need salvation, and we all can be saved.
This man, he was a criminal, he was one of the worst, he had broken the laws of the land and he was being crucified for that reason  but the measure of his sin, the gravity of his sin, did not alter his chance of sa being saved.
Didn't make one bit of difference to it.
There are some folk who think that they are too bad to be saved, there are other folk who don't think they're bad enough to need saving, both are equally wrong!
We all need it!
Whether we're bad or not so bad, whether we think we have gone beyond the pale or whether we think we're better than the other person, we all need a saviour because we're all sinners.
In Matthew chapter nine, in verse thirteen Jesus said  I did not come to call the righteous but sinners .
They're the only people that Jesus can rescue.
They're the only ones he needs to rescue.
But the thing is, we're all sinners, for all have sinned and come short of his standard.
The good, the bad, the criminal, the religious Nicodemus that we saw a few weeks ago, all are sinners.
Eddie Stride in one of his books he makes this statement, he says,my jealousy, your envy, someone else's pride, needs the pardon bought with the blood of Christ at Calvary, as much as someone else's promiscuity, or perversion .
And we like to tabulate things, and we like to think that who is a bad sinner, who's not such a bad person, we all need saving, we all need rescuing!
Our nice respectable sins need cleansing as much as the worse possible sins.
Then again, we see that salvation is instantaneously received.
Look at the prayer of this man, Jesus remember me when you come in your kingdom.
Then the response of Jesus, truly I say to you today, you shall be with me in paradise.
You can't read this incident and not believe in sudden conversion.
The man didn't have a long time to go through a process, he didn't have a long time to find where he was on on the scale,a and er, you know, from one stage to the next stage, to the next stage, to got through a pre-evangelism and then another stage, and another stage, the man didn't have time he was dying!
And the moment he called on Jesus, Jesus heard him and rescued him, he was instantly saved, he was instantly received by Christ.
This man was suddenly brought into the kingdom and given the assurance of salvation.
Just as we saw a few weeks ago Zaccheus was, er, between him being up the tree and hitting the ground, that man was converted.
He came to know Jesus Christ.
And salvation is not a long drawn out affair  it's not something we have to go through all sorts of processes to to se , to finally achieve it, it's there as God's free gift waiting to be received.
It's not on an instalment plan.
Pay so much of it, do so much and then you'll get it.
But there, the moment we put our in him, we receive.
At that very second that we call upon the Lord, just as this dying thief called on him, the Lord will hear us and make his answer instantly the same as he did for this man.
The thief said when?
And Jesus said, today.
And as we read through, as we flick over the pages of the bible we find that coming again, and again.
There back in Joshua, Joshua he issues the challenge to the, the children of Israel, in Joshua chapter twenty four, he says,and if it is a disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord choose for yourself today whom you will serve, whether the God's which your father served, which are beyond river, or the God's of the Amorites in whose land you are living, but as for my and my husband we will serve the Lord !
The wise man in Proverbs twenty seven, he says,do not boast about tomorrow  for you do not know what a day may bring forth .
And the apostle Paul in Corinthians in chapter six  he says,at the acceptable time I listen to you, and on the day of salvation I helped you.
Behold now is the acceptable time!
Behold now is the day of salvation !
Then we see again that salvation does not depend on ceremonies and rights, good deeds or service.
You know, this man who was hanging on the cross beside Jesus  he had not been christened, he hadn't been dedicated, he had never been to a confirmation class in his life, he had never been baptized, he had never been received into church membership  he had never even gathered around the Lord's table!
Now when we open the scriptures we find clear commands, that th that there are, when we come to Jesus and accept him as our saviour then we are to obey him  and we are to be baptized!
Jesus says if you love me you will keep my commandments.
And so there is that command.
If we have come to him and received him as our saviour then if we are gonna live na in, if we are not gonna live in a state of disobedience then we have got to be baptized whether we choose to, whether we like to it's a, it's a simple thing, it's not a matter of choice  it's the straightforward command of the Lord's.
Repent, believe and be baptized.
So while there's that clear command to be baptized.
There is the clear command to join in fellowship with the Lord's people and not to forsake our, the gi the assembling of ourselves together  er, as some folk do, but to meet together with God's people, to grow in his family.
There is the command to do, come around the Lord's table.
The Lord commands, he says this do in remembrance of me.
And as meet around just now, it is not an optional extra, it's not something we do if we choose to do, it is a command, and he says if you love me you will keep my commands.
But these things are not necessary to our salvation.
They don't get us saved.
They don't get us into God's kingdom.
Getting into the kingdom  becoming a follower of Jesus Christ is not dependant on any of these that we do, but rather on what he has already done.
His sacrifice for us and our receiving and putting our trust in him.
Now, we do these things after we're saved, they get us saved, we do them after we've saved as a confession that we are trusting Jesus Christ as our saviour.
When after I became a Christian I obeyed and was baptized, it wasn't to make me a better person  it wasn't to make me er, someone who was, er more pious or more religious, or of having greater favour with God, it was done because he had commanded it in his word, and I was identifying myself with him.
I was saying publicly, I belong to Jesus Christ!
I am his follower.
I am dying to that old life, to that old self and I am following in this new life, and therefore, I am going through this, this symbolic act of being baptized, of dying to the old and being raised a new life in Jesus Christ.
When I come round the Lord's table, it's not to make me a better Christian, it's not to make me a better person, a more religious person, a more spiritual person  it's a confession of faith, apart from being an act of obedience, it is a confession of faith.
As I take the bread and the wine, I am saying, I affirm my trust in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for me.
As I take this bread and drink this wine, I am affirming to men, and to angels and to demons, that I believe Jesus Christ died for me, and I identify myself with him  in his sacrifice for me.
I believe that his sacrifice is sufficient.
That's one of the reasons why it is important that we come around the Lord's table.
It's not an optional extra, it is a case of identifying ourselves with him, and Jesus said if you're ashamed to identified with me, there on that day I will be ashamed to be identified with you.
But these things don't bring us salvation.
They don't make us Christians.
But they are confessions of the faith that we have, the trust that we have in Jesus Christ.
And so we do them after we are saved as a confession that we are trusting Christ as our saviour and because we love him.
You notice this man, this dying thief, he was saved without doing one single good deed.
In fact, his life was a life of crime.
He had robbed, he had murdered!
He had created havoc in the land.
He was guilty of terrorist activities!
May have been, well have been many people who suffered at his hands.
He hadn't done anything good, it was on the contrary.
But it wasn't his deeds that made him a Christian, it was his trust in Jesus Christ.
The song writer, the hymn writer reminds us in those tremendous words of that other old hymn, when he says nothing in my hand I bring, simply to your cross I cling.
Wash me saviour or I die.
I said, he said I can't do it, you've got to do it for me!
Then finally, we can be absolutely sure of our salvation.
This man was.
I don't know when he had last closed his eyes with a clear conscience  but he did that day.
He had had assurance from Jesus, that although he was dying, although he was in physical torment and pain, going through one of most excruciating, awful deaths imaginable!
And yet, he had an assurance, he had a peace, he had heard the words of Jesus, today, you will be with me in paradise.
He was sure that he was saved because he had the words of Christ  and they had given him assurance.
What presumption it would have been if the man had assumed this without hearing from Christ.
But equally, how presumptuous it would have been if he had not believed it after Christ had spoken it.
He had the word of Christ, the promise of Christ to rest on, just the same as you and I have.
How do you know you're a Christian?
It's got nothing to do  with your feelings.
It's got nothing to do with the fact that,you'll like, or don't like going to church now .
That you enjoy reading the bible.
That you find pleasure in praying.
It's got nothing to do with that at all.
How do you know, how do I  that I am a Christian?
How do you know that you are a Christian?
Listen to what it says in John chapter five   Truly, truly I say unto you , this is Jesus speaking  he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and does not come into judgement but has passed out of death  into life .
The only assurance that you have, and that I have that we are Christians is what God has said in his word.
It's nothing to do with what the preacher says.
It's nothing to do with any experience that we have had.
It's nothing to do with anything that we've heard from others.
It's nothing to do with our feelings, whatever they may or may not be.
They will be feelings  oh a tremendous feeling!
A sense of relief as the, as the burden of guilt is removed!
A sense of joy and peace amidst all the problems and difficulties that still are there.
But that's not the ground of our assurance.
That's perk, the perks and the bonuses that go with it  but the contract, that's what really counts isn't it?
The contract is what he has said in his word.
God has said it, and that settles it for ever!
And there is not a feeling that I can have, whether it's produced from my emotion, or whether it comes from hell itself, there is not a feeling that can come my way, there is not a lie of the devil that can alter that truth!
It can make me feel like doubting, it can bring me to the place where I question it, but it doesn't alter the fact  we can be totally sured, totally certain of our salvation, because God has said it.
If you believe in me you shall be saved!
Have we heard his word?
Is that what our confidence is based on?
The authority of his word, and we can be quite sure that we possess eternal life.
Whatever anybody else says, whatever doubts fi experiences may come our way  that we will never ever be judged for a for our sins, because Christ has taken that judgement on himself, he has been judged for us, the price has been paid.
Christ borne that judgement for us and we have passed from death into life life!
Let me give you one scripture in closing, in two Timothy chapter one  and verse twelve,the apostle says, for this reason, he says I suffer these things but I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until that day .
How does the apostle know?
Because he has the word of assurance from God himself!
God has said it!
That has settled the whole matter.
And that's the basis of  your salvation and my salvation.
That's what gave this fellow certainty.
That's why he could end those last few minutes or hours of his life, in pain, but in peace, because he had the word, the assurance, the promise from Christ.
In response to his cry for help  today, you will be with me in paradise.

Good evening.
This is another in our series on Britain in Europe.
Tonight, and during the next two Tuesday programmes, we are going to look at cultural links and influences.
This evening I have with me Norbert Lynton, who is Professor of History of Art at the University.
Norbert, is British art influenced at all by what goes on in the Continent?
I think British artists, much more than the general public, British artists are pretty aware of what's going on on the Continent.
Influenced is more difficult to say.
I think very often the influence goes the other way.
Now that's something we in England, in Britain I should say, are not particularly aware of, but a lot of British artists who are very well known on the Continent, that in Britain would seem, you know, too avant-garde to be known to the wider public.
Could you give me an example, or examples?
Well, I could, but they'd be meaningless in a sense.
I mean, well, by coincidence there's an exhibition at this moment at the Whitechapel Art Gallery in London; upstairs there's a show of Tony Cragg.
Now I'd not seen his work before, that's partly because I'm in Brighton and not in London and don't get up that often perhaps, but he has hardly shown in England, whereas he's very well known in Europe, using Europe for the Continent.
He's had many one-man shows in European galleries, but this Whitechapel show is his first real sort of public display in this country.
Now this applies to many other artists.
A man like Richard Hamilton, for instance, who's now pretty well known in this country, was much better known on the Continent of Europe and in America, in Switzerland, in Germany, in Northern Italy — Milan particularly — much better known there than he was for decades.
Traditionally, I always feel that the influence goes the other way.
I think of people, grand old British artists, like Turner for example, going on grand tours and coming back to Britain and going through, as it were , a period of painting where he is influenced by what he's seen and heard and experienced in Europe, and then more latterly I think of France as being, Paris as being the centre of art and British artists going and spending their period in Paris and coming back and going through an impressionist or an expressionist phase.
I don't sort of think of it as art going in the other direction.
Well, you're suffering from, if I may put it that crudely, of a well-known British disease of a lack of self-regard in a sense.
The British in their quiet way think of themselves as the salt of the earth, and quite rightly too, but where matters of culture are concerned they do have this tendency to think that the best things happen abroad and at best can be borrowed from abroad.
In Turner's time art was very international.
Rome was, I suppose, the capital of the art world, but Rome was essentially an international place where many a Britisher was famous; where Flaxman, for instance, had established himself as one of the most famous artists in the world.
We hardly mention him nowadays.
Turner did the grand tour, certainly; he learnt a lot in Italy, but he learnt equally a great deal from English artists and from Dutch artists  and in so far as he used the grand tour, and used what Rome and other countries had to offer, that's what every artist did, every European artist, not just the English.
And of course there have been many moments when English art was very important on the Continent indeed.
An obvious example is the Pre-Raphaelites, who, whilst still being spurned in England, except that they were collected by, I don't know, Manchester businessmen, spurned in London, let's say, were enormously influential in Brussels, in Paris, and in Germany and Austria.
Can I ask you a rather difficult question?
As an amateur person, as it were, interested in art, I get very confused about what's been happening in the past fifty to eighty years.
I think I can more or less understand in general terms what happens up until sort of the impressionist time, maybe just post-impressionist.
After that it all gets rather confusing.
There seem to be so many different terms — action paintings, abstract impressionisms, realisms, geometrical art, monochromes, dozens of other different terms.
Is there any real development and trend that could be explained perhaps in rather simple language to people like myself?
There's no one dominant trend at the moment I don't think.
Impressionism has really made things very difficult in so far as people think that impressionism is a kind of normal state for art to be in and anything else is a kind of deviation from good sense.
Impressionism was a very extreme form of art.
I'm amazed it ever happened.
I am even more amazed that, having hated it, people have now come to love it quite so much.
I mean I can understand why they do and I like the stuff myself, but I don't share the belief that I get from all sides that impressionism is what art should be like normally.
You see impressionism isn't art about anything very much, it's art as description — a very lively, lovable form of description, pure and simple — whereas normally art has been full of messages and meaning and didacticism if you like — full of morality and sermonizing very often, and that is normal for art.
A lot of modern art has tended to be that way, often abstract art, that people think is meaningless, is in fact full of very serious messages if only people are willing to listen to them.
It's a big subject but I'm in a sense referring to it only in this context because it's precisely in these areas that British art in the twentieth century has been very important.
A man like Ben Nicholson, elderly now, rather frail, still I hope working — certainly last year he was still working and exhibiting — is part of an international modern art tendency, or number of tendencies and is recognized as such, and yet if you examine his art, it's full of Englishness as well.
You see one can be both.
One can be both part of the international abstract art and some of his work is abstract, and even in that context bring into it qualities that once one knows the idiom people can recognize as purely English and one can also, at the same time as he was much of the time, be a figurative artist that do landscapes, interiors, figure paintings (rarely), and figure drawings of a very high quality, and again they are partly of an international modern  and they are partly essentially English works.
What about the art public?
It seems to me that ultimately artists must be successful or otherwise because of the public response to their output.
Is the British public different from New York public or the Continental public?
Ah, alas, I don't know how to say this without seeming to go to extremes.
Only in Britain would eminent, highly educated people, leaders of society, heads of educational institutions, ministers, etc. etc., think it was worth mocking modern art.
Please believe me, this is absolutely true.
You go to an avant-garde exhibition in Germany or in Italy, in France, in New York of course, and you find that a lot of people want to be informed about it and even, if they are not normally art people, they accept it in the sense of not mocking it.
In Britain it seems to be a kind of tradition that if you refer to modern art at all, you make jokes about it.
Even Henry Moore until quite recently was still being mocked for the holes that go through his sculptures and so on, and the tradition continues.
I used to find it kind of funny.
I find it painful because it wastes a lot of effort.
It means a lot of being enjoy being on the wrong side, if I can put it that way.
Certainly, on my visits to exhibitions, such as at the Royal Academy, my impression is that the British public much prefers the older works, as it were.
At the post-impressionist exhibition you could scarcely move at all for people, but at the new spirit in painting exhibition, which is currently on at the R A, there's a lot of space and people on the whole go round very quickly and are rather sceptical about it all.
This actually reinforces what you're saying I suppose.
Yes, I think you would find that everywhere people will crowd into especially post-impressionism, which is Van Gogh, etc., more than they would into an avant-garde exhibition.
I don't mean that people necessarily have to like what's going on.
What I'm begging, especially our leaders so to speak, to do is to stop thinking that it's all kind of a joke that's being perpetrated by idiots or by  of some sort against the public.
Alas the exhibition at the Royal Academy, it should be fuller of course because there are some good things there.
Any exhibition is worth going looking at and thinking about, but I do think that that is an extraordinarily bad exhibition.
It's the first time I've come away from an exhibition thinking that the exhibition as such was stupid.
Not everything in it is stupid, but there's no point to the exhibition and there's certainly not a new spirit being displayed there.
They certainly seem to be unrelated, many of the artists and the canvases and the paintings shown.
Well a very ordinary thing has happened there, but it has happened on such an extraordinary scale that I think it's worth saying.
The work on show, of course, let's say was done in the seventies, I mean we're only in nineteen eighty one now.
Most of it was done in the seventies, some was done in the sixties.
Many of the artists on show of course are quite elderly, and some of them are dead.
What that exhibition in fact is doing is that it's not saying here's a new spirit in painting, it's saying that we the organizers, having not bothered to show you these things in the sixties and seventies, will now allow you to see them in the eighties, and we will pretend there's a new spirit because we think it's good for the art world to have new fashions, new movements, or at least something new going on that will produce some kind of emotional pressure.
But in fact they're all rather dated?
It's all rather dated, and some of it's very good and some of it's so so, and some of it's plain ordinary.
Let me ask you about one particular artist, whose name has actually escaped me at the moment 
That doesn't help!
He does more or less blank paintings of single monotone colours of various kinds.
Now, can you remember the name of the artist?
Oh yes, Alan Charlton.
Alan Charlton.
Now, with the best will in the world, I stand in front of that sort of painting and I get very little from it.
Yes.
Now, have you got any comment to make about that?
O yes.
erm I could lecture you for hours at a time on the subject.
This kind of art's often referred to as minimal art, which helps, you know, like most stables there's a quite way of referring to stuff, and indeed very often this kind of art relates to very simple forms, which just one colour, or perhaps no colour if it's a piece of wood for instance, or a large canvass covered with just one colour, a monochrome canvas — you referred to monochromes earlier.
It started as a movement, that is again the critics that is that again the critics picked it up and made something of it worth discussing in the mid-sixties.
The only short way to help people with this kind of art, I think, is to refer to things like pyramids.
There is a sense in which after much complex art, much elaborate art, much sermonizing art of the sort I was talking about earlier, people sometimes get the urge to simplify things down and in a sense they say let's go back to the five finger exercise, let's see what a note on the piano sounds like instead of playing, you know, Chopin or Stravinsky all the time, let's remind ourselves what the actual note sounds like, or two notes together, or one note and then a gap and then another note, and you suddenly become aware of the richness, in a sense in these very simple elements.
In the case of Alan Charlton, he has these six very fine grey panels, by very fine I just mean they are handsomely proportioned, they are very carefully coloured to a very precise, not just colour but also weight of colour and brightness and so on, but the way they're shown in the Royal Academy Exhibition, and this is part of it's stupidity, is, well I got the feeling it was intended to kill them to stone dead by putting them next to something very loud, very elaborate, very expressionist, a vast canvass by a very good painter by Mutter.
To put these two things together is like forcing people to eat, I don't know, salt and sugar in the same spoonful.
I am not saying which is the salt and which is the sugar — it just is absolutely designed not to produce an intelligent reaction in the spectator.
The only way to show  work is to show it either absolutely by itself, in a very plain setting, so that you can notice every detail of how the light falls on it and so on, or to show it with other absolutely minimal works, so again you get this utter simplicity and you become very aware of the space in which the thing is hanging and so on , but there must be a very clear, simple setting, as indeed for new classicism, and I sometimes think that this kind of art is the son or grandson of new classicism, in which incidentally Britain was the leading country.
So, lastly, where is art going in the future?
Would you care to gaze in your crystal ball?
Briefly, no.
I've tried it sometimes, never long enough to know whether I did it successfully or not, but I found there is absolutely no way of telling because even if it changes in a way one can predict, what one can predict is the way oneself changes or the world changes at the same time.
The thing about art is that it isn't just a nostalgic wallowing in things of the past that are comfortable, but art as an adventure, and one just has to go along with it.
Thank you very much Norbert.
Next week, Michael Hall will be talking about music.
Until next week then, goodnight.

Right mom?
Where's the food?
I'm hungry mom.
Oh would you?
Just for me?
Oh gratitude.
Picker.
Oh hey Clifton's coming round, gonna play football
Clifton  and we're gonna play football
What's Clifton
Clifton
What's up Michael?
Hello
Where's the ball?
Where's your ball?
ball
Where?
ball
Where's the ball?
here
Well give it here
Where's the ball?
there
mhm, it's nice.
Come on Michael eat your dinner 
Mom, you have to speak English.
No, I told you yesterday
I can't hear
Well you have to speak English
Why is that?
Cos thing
What thing?
This
Oh you mean you are taping me
No, I have to leave it on all the time
Are you taping me now?
So everything I say is running
Yeah
Who is going to listen to it?
Some people in Norway
Norway?
Oh my God
Oh my God
Oh God
Shut up boy
Oh God
Yes I can.
Hello?
Yes Terry morning morning.
What?
What's that shit music in the background?
What's that shit mus 
Come and finish your dinner
Oi  listen to this.
You know that taping thing? you know the micro thing you know?
Yeah I'm doing it now.
Yes I am.
It's picking up all that you say you know.
It is .
not for me man.
Nick who?
Nick who?
Oh  Duane told me something about Nick or Nicky.
Was it?
What's he say?
Oh right.
Oh.
Didn't get what she said man.
Colin, I don't know, he probably won't come.
I asked him.
Is it?
I'll phone Nick and Colin right.
Alright then laters.
Dickhead, dickhead.
Laters.
he said some and get your  and finish your dinner
I have to phone Nick
Forget about Nick
Shit  what's Nick's phone number?
And stop swearing  the tape
You're allowed to swear.
No.
Fucking hell man.
Oh no.
I can swear it I like okay      
Hello
Hi Nick
Yes
What're you doing man?
Oi, I'm taping you you know
I'm taping you
Hello
Say hello to microphone
Hello mister Mike
Yeah, pucker, hard core  yeah, oi coming down park?
I dunno
Come on
Yeah y he 
Are you coming?
I dunno
D'you wanna come?
Not really
Alright, don't bother coming, right?
Alright then
D'you wanna come?
What?
Yeah, it's bloody wicked.
I'm I'm going down there at five o'clock yeah
yeah
Alright then, if you're not doing nothing right  alright then laters, pucker.
Who else can I ring?
Mhm?
I have to get a lot of people
Don't use my telephone
No 
seven five
hey
four four nine  .
Hello, Colin?
Hold on 
Colin, yeah  yeah, oi, d'you wanna come and play football then?
Yeah, what time do you reckon you'll be there?
Er  says he's gonna knock for me about five yeah and we're gonna be there at five yeah.
So what time d' you reckon you can get there by if you leave now?
five past five
What, if you leave now?
well after I've had my dinner  five past five
Alright then, you know where we're gonna be?
Yeah, it's either the fence yeah, you know that white fence, either there or on the other side where those gold things are you know, or if we're not there, go on the other side of the park where the other gold things are.
Know what I mean?
Just f yeah.
Anyway, laters yeah, laters.
Bye
What you want?
Claudette 
No
Claudette, come here
No
finish your dinner
Oh fucking hell
Go away
Go on, eat your dinner, there 
Hey, Marco Marco 
Yes?
Shall I hit him?
No, leave him
No
Mom .
Oi, get out my seat.
Oh shit.
Sit down.
No, more for me
so different
crunchy
No, they're not
Nick ?
Yeah
Is he coming?
He might be yeah
for sure 
Not for sure no
No we're not coming here
so shit yeah.
No.
Do you know when you take this to school your teacher will listen to it
No they don't listen to it, they said you're allowed to swear as much as you like
No 
They said you're allow .
Mom.
Y'know when 
they're gonna say God, what kind of a family are there?
Yeah, just like any other normal family
No  
shut up 
Listen, you know  yeah  he went and brought a Pot Noodle cos he didn't want you to cook for him cos your food's really shit.
It's nice they brought him up 
No  call it shit
Mom  
I don't want no more chips
Well don't have any 
I'm not 
Mom, right, listen yeah.
I  always looks after him
Oh bloody hell mom
take girls.
They're gonna be there mom
How many of you 
About eleven of us
Yeah right Nick lives in Southgate  right next to me,lives in, where's he live?
He lives right you know  and 
Yes
Yeah, he lives there
leave at half past ten
We leave at eleven
Alright, we'll leave at half past ten
What?
Who's got to take a bus?
It's not far mom.
I dunno.
Mommy?
you keep quiet you
I think it's a party
I think it's a party
It's not a birthday party.
Ac I do, actually I know it's a party actually
No, us, well, right to get in it's two pound, two pound fifty.
What're you doing?
well wicked.
love you too much to ever stop love, Rastafarian now 
Right.
No go away, who's it for ?
No it's for right  in school
Yeah?
Yeah?
Are you taping now?
No.
Okay .
Right in school yeah, erm after they gave us these yeah and they like wanna see like how we talk and all that.
You know 
Yeah.
rastafarian style and all  
Who wants who wants to see how you talk?
Er it's whatsit it's some some er Norwegian thing and
Are you taping?
No it's rewinding.
Oh okay.
Yeah and I say something
What?
Say homeboys.
I don't want to say that, I don't s talk like that.
Alright just say, just speak.
Terry I want you to piss off because I have an exam tomorrow.
But I don't care.
She don't know what to say.
.fuck off, you're allowed to swear as much as you like.
Are you.
Yeah.
Fuck fuck fuck fuck   I'm gonna fail 
You're gonna fail is it?
What's that you're gonna fail and you're gonna cheat for your G C S Es ?
said that how am I gonna  how am I gonna cheat 
You're gonna cheat.
You've got the answer sheet for the G C S Es exam  
Terry go away.
Okay I'm going I'm going.
That is my very ungrateful sister who's a fat tart.
Mum, where's my tea?
It's in here.
Wicked.
You know what I found, you know you walk all the way round with your friends down the village and you come home.
Yeah?
When you  the other side  telephone and I'll come and pick you up .
What where the park is?
Not where the park  the village on the way down.
Yeah but I'm gonna walk with Richie and Andrew up to bloody down there.
with Richie and Andrew innit?
Yeah and I give you a lift up to here .
When you get the other side of the park
Yeah.
You know in the village there's a park where there's  flowers.
No.
You know where  
Yeah but everyone's gonna be walking there you don't mum.
Yeah but then you're gonna separate.
No we don't we separate right at the bottom of this hill.
All ten eleven of you, here?live round here.
Most of them live in .
.
Yes they're gonna walk to .
Do you want some tea?
It's hot you know .
Put a lot of milk in it.
.
Ah..
.
Oi don't do that.
Do you want some more tea?
I'm full.
Morning.
It's on.
Yeah.
.
Your the .
Seeing that it's your brother's birthday.
.
God you take enough time.
Mhm.
Take so long.
I know how it goes.
No it's not.
Nice walkman.
Mm?
Cornwall.
innit?
Huh?
I put an ad for the  Cafe on this.
Shall I say shout.
Here's a shout going out to  College, the  Boys.
.
Yes.
Don't do that.
I have to leave it on all the time though.
Here's another shout going to  in  College, Boy.
I hate Norwegian people.
I hate Norwegian people.
Oh I asked Steve  he said he'll come.
Steve said he'll come.
Yeah.
Luckily.
Huh?
Luckily.
Luckily.
Who told your brother  to have a birthday on bloody Saturday?
Couldn't he have it something like next month or something.
I bought some tapes to listen to.
I got Megahits Thirteen, and   oh yeah  C D.
Cos I'm gonna tape it again cos my thing's clapped up and all..
What?
The tape like I keep on doing it wrong.
Cos I done it with my old hi-fi yeah
And it conked out.
It well it does tapes yeah but it's like the bass keeps on going down then it goes high then the main bit's like  You know what I mean it all gets crapped up so i'll tape it again.
do you like it?
What?
That C D.
I love that C D.
My rastafarian .
So do you like Norwegians?
Norwegians.
No like I hate them.
They're cunts.
Cunts .
My sister goes That's right?
I goes yeah.
She goes, Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck really loud yeah she goes fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck.
Who's that?
My sister.
She's got a bloody erm French G C S E today.
The main G S G C S E yeah for French, a whole big thing  big .
She's leaving in a couple of weeks.
She's going  College.
How long's your brother going  going there?
My sister's gonna go to  College.
Maybe she might be.
It's either , or sixth form.
Going to the sixth form?
Maybe.
What is?
Is it?
You p you should have played football yesterday you know.
I saw Mustapha down there, he played  went with his erm father.
Played football.
Huh?
Who came.
Some boys.
No one like everyone from our school you know what I mean, no one that you don't know.
I mean you know everyone.
What all the people from our school.
Everyone not a 
just people in our class you know what I mean.
James , Micky ,
Clifton, me, Colin I don't know why Colin came.
He's got holes in his jeans.
What a fashion statement man.
bloody things innit?
Whatsit?
.
I knew what it was.
I knew what it was.
It was nothing .
On the other page yeah it had a picture of like this chart yeah and it had the picture of a grapefruit in all this sharing, you had to just draw that.
My drawing's enough crap cos I I was buzzed when I was doing that.
.
Transformers, robots in disguise.
listen to this now?
Who?
Yeah.
Yeah and teachers from our school are gonna listen to it.
Mr  is a wanker.
It don't matter.
They can't give me detention for this.
Yeah man.
Huh?
Yeah man..
Morning.
on the tape.
. Say something say something.
Yeah just say something.
Give out a shout to someone.
Go on.
Why are you taping.
Yeah.
Who don't you like?
You.
Besides me.
Nick.
Besides Nick.
Everyone.
Everyone oh.
Oi Nick,Nick I done this bad burp  
And I put it on my ghetto blaster yeah, me and Nicky listened to it yeah, and it comes out wicked .
put that on.
No it's not on this tape, it's on the other tape.
Mm.
Cos I I've done one tape.
I sleep.
.
That gave me a good idea actually.
.
Yeah, I done a burp.
Had a haircut?
No.
It looks different, you had it round the shi sides.
Mhm.
Mhm.
Mhm.
Mhm.
Guess who asked  out Nick.
Mm.
Guess who asked  out,
Who?
Derek.
Mhm he's a dickhead isn't he.
Innit?
.
yoghurt.
Hiya Terry.
Morning.
Morning Nick.
Morning.
Morning..
didn't I?
Did you?
Yeah, last Easter.
It had a big egg in it.
Don't you remember?
You gave me a kit-kat one.
Yeah.
I got two kit-kat things.
where you going.
car?
Yeah yeah .
..
Nick, you're a bad boy?
Or are you a bad girl?
You're a poofter.
Is it still taping?
Yeah, leave it on.
Get one big gruesome  
Just do a real one mate.
Oi .
execution thing.
Yeah.
It's gonna be bad.
you motherfucker.
Oh wicked, I can pick up the revs.
Innit, pick up the revs.     those fingerprints?
Me.
You?
No.
It wasn't  What time is it Tel?
It's erm five to.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Me?
.
You've put new alloys on?
Going to the park today.
Okay?
Are you taking the baby?
No.
Take  all that hassle.
Oh Carolina is a girl she buck up in the  
and rock your body just like you move, some come girlie, girlie, da da, da da da da .
Go away Michael!
Go, go to mummy.
Go to mum.
Go away!
Piss off!
Go away!!
Faggot!
Hello.
Yeah.
Er erm  possibly, yeah.
You coming then?
Ah meet you up the park then?
You got a , yeah, yeah!
Yeah, yeah!
Mm mm!
My dada!
Why don't you go if I'm not going?
You're horrible!
Boo ooh!
Yeah.
If I go, yeah?
I'll be down the park.
I mean  alright.
Is it th , everybody's gonna be down the park, yeah?
I dunno.
What down the park now?
No.
What?
Oh Micky Mars Bars been knocking for me, Clinton's supposed to be knocking for me, Jay  don't know what the fuck's he's, he's supposed to be doing!
Oh.
Colin dunno know what he's gonna do.
Colin.
Well come down here then.
Yeah cos then,th they're not gonna be down the park are they?
Come down here yeah?
Alright, latest.
I was taping this by the way.
I don't mind!
I dunno, it's up to you, you know.
I'm not going to control your whole your life.
Look, if you wanna ride up, ride up, if you don't, don't.
Alright, give me a call.
Don't tal , I don't wanna talk to you Nick.
No I don't want to talk to Nick.
Nick  I don't wanna talk to you.
Look I don't wanna talk, I wanna talk to Paul.
Paul.
Word up.
Give me Nick.
Hello.
You coming then?
Right.
Latest.
Bye .
I need a Coke.
No, eh eh,, eh !
Then you'll have to buy some more.
No!
But I, I think that 
What d'ya think I'm gonna drink down the park?
I'm gonna be bloody thirsty aren't I?
You're not gonna learn anything down there.
No.
Have you got a small bo , have you got an empty one of these?
I just put in the dustbin, it just gone.
Well done!
It's, you wanna get it out?
It's
I don't want it!
What?
It's a bottle.
It's all gone.
Yeah mate!
But the Lucozade .
A bottle!
Me.
It was me.
A bottle.
Mate.
A bottle!
No!
Here are.
I don't think we should have one.
Hey!
Oi!
Oi!
Oi you fool!
You're a fool!
I'm a fool !
You're a fool!
Now piss off !
Yes we are.
Where's er, where's the er, what do I want?
I want  you're so clever going and throwing the bottle away, you're so daft!
Never mind that.
You want me to go and get it for ya?
The bottle.
Yeah, but you have to clean it?
It's already clean.
Well then go and get it now.
Have you got any ice?
What did you phone him for just now?
Nick phoned me.
What for?
He wanted to know if I was going park.
And I'll rinse it.
It's clean .
Yeah you got .
But I can only do few animals, but that's all.
Oh keys.
I can't find the keys.
Right.
Michael !
Don't wanna hear us.
Well anyway, if you were to give well I'd give anything 
Would you give me two hundred pound?
If I was rich enough I'd give you.
Yeah but you ain't got it have you?
No.
Well you're dumb!
What a sob story!
I wanna to take you to outer space  outer space .
Reggae Hits, thirteen.
How long will it be mum?
What?
How lo , how long are you gonna be?
Up the park, er for dinner?
Yeah.
I don't know.
Ha?
Not till we go out.
Where are you going?
I might go alright?
Come on Michael, my sweetheart.
Fo fo fool!
Come on fool!
Yeah?
Fool and a ball.
Come on.
There.
It's there.
Yeah.
Thinking of you .
Can you keep an eye on him while I'm doing this dinner please?
No.
Please?
Mum.
No !
Well
I don't want to look a he's a pain in the arse!
Jus , just take him down .
What if I go?
Ha?
You going to go?
I might.
Oh oh.
Is it so urgent?
Ee ee, ee ee, ee ee.
What 
Why 
if I go?
why don't you like him?
He's a pain in the a , he's a pain the arse?
No Michael!
You fish!
Is real   Oh Michael!kiss a , long, long .
God man!
I can't even wait until I'm older so I can go to the discos like Georgina.
And how much is it to 
Do some dancing.
go to disco.
You can go to  and go to disco?
Is it?
How much are they?
Maybe five pounds, eight pounds to get in and then you have 
To get in?
buy, a drink of water  you have to pay eight pound.
Eight pounds?
Four pounds just for the Coke.
Yeah, right.
Sure right.
Great one mum.
Word up.
Alright.
Oh.
What?
What?
Forget it!
Oi, nice t-shirt man!
It's nice.
Yeah.
Wicked!
Oi!
Nick has to come first.
Come  with us.
So I have to wait for him, come on.
Er a, er  bring it round.
Yeah.
Bring it round.
Yeah.
You know what, that thing I got
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kiss around .
please?
No, wait up.
Where's the ?
Dunno.
Morning.
Phone Nicky 
Ha ah?
he's, Nicky  is coming.
Jay  is coming.
, I've already asked if he's coming
Just shout, what's  coming for?
He don't like football does he?
It's just that he wanted to see Jenny in front of everyone else.
Oh right.
Anyway, eh Shaun.
What?
Shaun, shall I put it on in the garage.
It's like, cos if people look through the door, yeah they'll see it 
Oh yeah.
and they will, cor!
What a nice bike.
My bike's narf shitted up!
I'm going, I'm going, oi, you should down your bike down thingy yeah?
They erm, service your bike, twenty pounds for just a service.
Well, where?
Down, I dunno.
My friend told me, yeah?
He says it's twenty pounds for a service, yeah?
on a machine man.
No, no I'm gonna give to thingie to service it.
I don't have, you know, waste my time.
But, I mean like  it's twenty pound, yeah?
Service, yeah?
And they like buy stuff as well, yeah?
If you need it, yeah?
But that's like little stuff that costs about a quid or something like that, yeah?
Like it's thi , they buy all that stuff, yeah, but if they're stuff like, it costs about ten pounds or more
Yeah.
erm, you have to pay.
But that's still good cos they know what's good for your bike.
Know what I mean?
Shut the door?
Ha?
Yeah, shut the door.
Whoops!
Remind me when we go yeah 
Yeah.
I got er water  in the fridge.
Suppose I better pu , put it in the freezer.
Are you only good enough .
Freezer.
I don't think so.
You can put it in that one.
It will though.
Eh?
Mum!
It will though.
Yes!
I'm only gonna put it there for a couple of minutes.
Mum !
Yeah.
Come on then.
Fire.
.
Is this is then?
Yeah.
This it?
That looks decent as it goes.
It's sma , it's small innit?
Mm.
It's dec , I like that there.
Yeah .
Do you like this song?
coming up?
I dunno when she's coming up?
Ye 
Wicked!
It's working.
I use these three  then I'll put my thingies in  cos I can't be bothered to erm  change.
Word.
Word up.
You not coming.
No, I'm not well.
I'm not well.
Ah?
I'm not well.
Mystery disease, yeah?
Right, right, right.
Lee said he's coming now, yeah?
He's  fucking .
Well perhaps he's
I like this.
Ah, ah ah, ah, ah ah.
You fixed it yet?
Ah this is .
Erm  Mr .
Why?
It's when you never fully expect it.
Oh.
So you're not taking no one to school?
No.
So you don't mind giving me a lift to, up to Nick's house?
Er, yes now, I'll, I can't be bothered to put clothes o.
It's good now cos Nick's brother takes us to school.
What by car?
Yeah.
Oh you mean you don't walk?
Nah.
So you're all agreed that I want you to pack up  at half past ten?
Yep.
And you all agree half past ten when I be there  er from where you gonna walk?
Ha?
Well where is this place?
Yes, it isn't Saracens.
Well then, where where?
It's not Saracens, it's another one in the village cos Saracen's i in the village,i , right?
So this is where 
Yeah, you'll and then cos you 
tell you 
otherwise .
Yeah, really.
Right.
Alright.
If you , it's alright, I'll tell you where Saracens is, yeah?
You go up Nick's hill  you ke 
Nicky's?
Yeah, this is where Saracens is, er it ain't at Saracens, yeah?
You go up Nick's hill
You under that and then you  go up and go up 
Oh.
You know there's that right, say you go up, yeah?
Yeah.
Right?
That side's Southgate, yeah?
Mhm.
Yeah?
This side is Saracen, you go all the way up that side
And that isn't .
to Saracen.
Yeah.
Because where like   it's down the village?
I'll go home.
I bet you he's at home.
Yeah.
No, he told us it's the rugby club.
Ah!
It's a rugby club?
It's a rugby club.
I dunno.
It is too far.
Oh.
It's a rugby club.
I've, I've only met one  bus driver which is nice.
Right, and that's it.
Jus , just the one.
That's Paul's dad.
No, two bus drivers which are nice then.
Paul's dad, but I've never been in a bus with Paul's dad.
And, but he's nice anyway.
And er  this geezer yeah?
Which I held my hand out, yeah?
No bus stop or nothing cos I just missed a bus, and he stopped for me.
I goes thirty P, thirty please?
And he gave me thirty  gave me a ticket  right?
And  that's it, and like, he was really nice.
Not like, oh what do you  blurgh urgh urgh!
Like that.
They just  
Le , I mean do they ever stop?
D'ya know what they do usually?
You're running up to the thing, yeah?
As soon as you get there, yeah?
They just close the doors and go.
Just like when Mike  and Steve were here  and er  they were going fucking wanker!
Fucking wanker!
You cunt!
You cunt!
I just don't, I was mu 
da na da .
bloody fucking bus!
You wanker!
The best one was Andy.
Da da, da da da  da .
Richard hit the ball on the car.
What car?
The car that was going past.
What ball?
James  's football.
You know my road?
Yeah.
Some car's going past, yeah, and I'm going  Nicky chip it up, yeah?
And it hi hit the car.
Damn fool can't chip the ball.
Well he chips it properly up in the air, but it's like no power there so it just hit the roof  and  like Nicky  just put it forward.
And you're sad Nick, yeah?
What?
You're bad, yeah?
I know four people who are going to the party and that's it.
And they're not gonna stay with me, yeah?
Just gonna go off.
Yeah?
With the girls, yeah?
And I'll be all alone.
Well don't go then!
Fuck you!
Yeah but I wanna go.
Well go!
Stop moaning!
Yeah but, you're bad.
You're a cunt!
Tt.
Why's your brother's birthday have to be today?
Today.
Ha?
Tomorrow.
It's your granddad?
Mm?
It's your granddad?
Where?
Over there.
Then it's your Mum.
Ha ha!
It's tomorrow.
Oh it's tomorrow.
Well what's your brother's birthday have to be tomorrow for?
Fish.
There's your Mum.
There's your granddad.
There's your girl.
Oh it's your family.
Ooh you cunt!
It's your
There's Desmond.
that's your indicator.
There's Desmond.
Desmond Tutu!
Desmond.
I see him on the bus one day round here.
Da, da da da, da, da da da da da, da da da, da, da da da da, da da da da, da da da da da da 
I've had enough of that at the moment.
da da da, da na na na 
After yesterday.
na na .
What d'ya do yesterday?
Oh yeah, you were playing football.
My legs are killing me.
From now to yesterday, they're still killing you?
Aching.
Oh.
I play you  as well.
What's happened to the fucking bus man!
Innit taking a time?
Good tonight, you  shut your door .
Yeah cos, good taste of music.
It's nine o'clock.
And it's raining?
Ha?
Raining, I think.
We'll just take a short cut.
Ah ah!
My legs!
Cos I'm an, what d'ya call it?
Fuck off!
A dead
Ho ho ho!
gandy giant.
Gandy fat  giant.
Mabalub
Ha?
Mabalub.
Popalub.
Popalub.
Lub, lub lub 
Lub, lub.
lub lub la.
That's the thing.
Ah!
That red no go, that red nose goes with the car.
I'm .
Ha?
I'm busting at the legs man.
Come on then.
Shit!
Did you do your test ?
Yep.
Well my Mum done it for me.
I got much more homework than you Nick, because like, I have to do the tape thing as well.
Well that's
Wicked!
I'm taping.
It's working, I dunno why.
Hey!
Weren't it working before?
No.
Well, you could do something now.
Cheek!
Say, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck.
Is it?
Yeah, it's working.
Yeah!
It's working!
Hooray!
Just wait until it stops.
Hello, my name's Nick .
You should do a bit of practise.
What?
All go go .
Yeah le ,
It works don't it?
Right look.
again?
Try the 
Yeah.
Batteries.
Are the batteries low?
No I just put ne 
That's not to say that I'll come back.
No.
Is it coming out?
No.
Ah ah!
Ooh ooh!
I'm not saying anything.
Well I don't listen when I go stop!
Stop!
What's that mummy, mummy?
Is that right?
It's Brian's, it's not ours.
Come on then.
Pooh!
And bring it home so I can ask your daddy what he thinks.
Game.
Oh it's working now.
Brilliant!
Alright Mum !
Go and play football.
I'll ring Ooshi.
Oh yeah.
Ooh!
Hi Ooshi?
Yeah.
Do you wanna play football?
When?
Now.
No give me, about twenty minutes .
Alright then.
I'll knock for you, yeah?
Alright then?
Can I come?
Alright.
How's it going?
Er er  nothing much.
Alright?
Yeah.
Okay.
Alright then.
Come here.
What now?
Yeah, I'll pick you up.
Oi!
What now?
Yeah.
Richie left with a  bird yesterday.
And just came up to chat you up.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What's her name?
Dunno.
Where did you, where d'ya see him?
Where did I see who?
So you went to the party as well?
Yeah.
Richie's a cunt, yeah!
Yeah.
Innit?
I, I reckon I should, I should kick, I'm gonna kick Richie's arse when I see him.
Aha.
Yeah.
Do you remember that  ain't she ugly?
Yeah.
What's her name?
Dunno .
We you okay mate?
I don't think I was .
You must have been drunk.
I know, I was .
Alright .
Yeah.
Did you get off with her?
No.
Why?
Are you going next Friday?
No, I'm not .
Why not?
Sure.
Sure.
Sure.
Right.
Right.
Oi!
Getting ready now.
Half an hour right?
Right.
Half an hour.
Right.
Latest .
Oh oh she comes.
Da na na na na na.
Doo da da, oh oh here she comes, da da da, da da, oh yeah.
Oh oh here she comes.
Ha ha .
Mum !
Wind it up .
What did you want?
Alright?
Yes.
This is a, that's our ball.
You get the 
Watch.
ball.
What?
No.
!
.
.
Ooh!
Come on kick one.
always.
I don't think he's back yet.
Why d'ya leave your music on?
Is it?
Turn it off then.
Press the 
No!
I don't know how.
There's a big
No, I don't know.
It says power.
It's a, the power.
Come on Michael, inside.
Hey!
Come on Michael.
Here.
Choo, pa cha cha.
Oh Michael, come here!
No!
Come in.
Mum, go outside and play with the baby.
I am not going outside.
Play with him.
Play with him mum.
Why?
Choo, doo, da doo doo doo doo, da da da da da da .
Who is it?
Go away Terry.
Who is it?
Go away Terry!
Who is it?
Effy.
Hello.
Ah ah!
Do you know how angry, I wish you didn't know it yet.
Okay, my mum 
You did not know it yet?
was supposed to pick me up from work, okay?
She didn't have her car so she goes,to Bunnie, you can take her home, yeah ?
It's all  .
Big earthquake!
Ah!
It wasn't me.
So I was  I was on my knees !
Ah!
. Ah ah!
God Jo, you're such a fool!
.
This'll crack my knees.
Innit?
Anyway, yeah, and so , right I go to Bunnie and I, can you take me home yes, cos I'm supposed to be going to a pizza to have pizza round my friend's house, he goes, mm, they're going, oh we're starving, you have to go round to somebody's house, I said  he goes well I'll take you stra , I'll take you as soon as we've had something to eat.
I goes, what's the point of me eating twice, you know?
I won't be able to have my pizza.
He goes, oh don't be so silly, yeah?
And took me over there and my, I had to have argument with my mum.
Can you get a bus home?
Oh yeah!
From my  house.
They were talking, and talking, and they decided to watch T V, I'm sitting there like, like, and I'm showing that I'm bored, you know, I'm falling asleep and then everything, and, there's like smoke coming out of my nose!
I'm like really vexed out!
It's so unfair!
I was there till ten o'clock!
Ten o'clock!
Ten?
Ten?
Yeah, when I got back.
And what about the thingie?
Shut.
When I got back, erm my dad was with some Greek guy from Cyprus like    bloody hell!
Yeah, but I wanted to go, you know.
I know it sounds stupid,but I wanted to go.
It's not fair !
Yeah.
So how you getting to thingybob?
Yeah, my, mum taking me, Chris, and Vicky, they're going from round here, yeah?
Well why don't you co ,as if , put us in the car, but we'll take you.
Yeah okay.
Shit!
I dunno, cos my dad's gonna dro , I told her my dad's gonna be dropping us off.
Probably outside to a park.
What time are you going?
Well I'm waiting for ti , Chris to come home.
I haven't, er  well she said she's leaving her house now.
Er, er, I haven't done my hair.
Gotta wash it.
Erm  I went to ca , you know I went to the  Levi to get my jacket, really horrible quality.
Really thin.
Really rubbish!
So, I'm just gonna go tomorrow to Camden town.
Did you go today?
Yeah.
I me 
Who with?
I mean I got a sh , and we just go got the bus me and my brother.
Oh.
There's no market tomorrow Jo.
There's no market .
It's not a market dad?
I might just go to Camden town tomorrow and get it, cos, I mean, it's seventy, yeah?
But it's really good qua , it's really thick.
Isn't it?
Oh I'll go and choose it after school or something.
Mm.
Come here.
It's really  Terry, what are you doing?
Putting the mic , microphone to the thing.
Just go away!
Why are sitting right beside me on the phone?
Cos I have to do
Dad  tell him.
a tape.
No he wants to tape us on some sort of tape .
Are you taping now Terry?
Yes!
Oh brilliant!
He's taping our conversations.
So erm  what time does it finish ?
Say
Are you coming on, er next Friday?
Where?
The party.
No?
No.
I tell you 
She won't come.
she won't talk about you or anything.
She won't come if you don't come.
Alright then.
So how's the
Right.
it's kind of a disco man.
Ah?
Disco.
I asked her right and she said er
What did you ask her?
No I, I asked the one, that other there
Yeah.
and she said 
That's her friend innit?
Yeah.
And she goes, oh I might come, I don't know where it is.
So I told her where it was  and she goes, erm, are you going?
And I go, yeah.
And she said I'll probably come.
And she goes is Terry going?
And I go, yeah.
And she goes, does erm your friend, does Terry really like  my friend?
I goes, I dunno, but he was by himself so I set him up.
And she goes erm
if he doesn't like her then I'll tell my friend not to come.
Alright?
And I'll pass subtle hints about it and I go  I'm just passing a subtle hint right.
She won't want 
You 
anything.
No, she's just gonna say and blare it out, yeah.
He hates you!
Cow!
Oi!
What?
Come out here.
Watch.
Relaxed.
Those your new ones or your old ones?
My old ones.
Are they dry?
You know I was taking my jeans back?
What jeans?
You know those ones I bought on Saturday?
Why d'ya take them back?
Cos all the letters have come off man.!
What d'ya mean letters?
You know the letters 
I mean 
on the back of the pocket.
No, the letters on the back of po pocket is plastic.
Yeah, they've come off.
How can they come off, it's a
Stuck on.
Is it?
Yeah.
Ah.
Do you think I should wear them tonight?
Yeah, wear them.
Da da da da da da da .
I've ironed them.
You go , is she going to get the same pair?
Yeah.
If it's open man.
Cos I rang up there 
Yeah.
this morning, no one picking the fucking phone up!
I hope they're open.
Oi what day is it today?
What day is it?
Well , it's a bank holiday 
It's a bank ho 
yeah, but some might open.
Yeah but they might , yeah, they might be open.
Yeah.
Like and see, but er  I was gonna say
Ta I dunno, but what 
Yeah but I'm going on a trip tomorrow and I need them back?
Oh yeah, you got  
Will you wait for me while I iron my  clothes?
Alright then.
There's loads of videos there.
I'll put it on.
There's er, there's uncle .
I'm getting that single today.
What single?
Ah la la la lo .
I got that.
What?
I've got it.
On a single?
No, I've got the  I've got it on C D.
You haven't?
Yeah!
I have .
I bought the Sonic System C D.
No, I don't mind.
It's .
It's just in in the chart, number six.
Is it?
That's well hard!
Straight in.
Jesus!
That's enough old man.
I haven't heard it before.
The first night I heard was the party.
Di , I'll lend it to you.
Nah.
!
Ah God!
Well that's well hard!
It is a wicked song you know.
Did you find out what school she went to?
No.
Don't wanna know what school she went to.
I don't wanna know what school she went to.
You ain't got it?
I don't want to know what school she went to.
And I don't know.
Did you find out anything about her?
No.
nothing at at all.
That's worth it.
What about her?
Why d'ya ask whether I know anything about her ?
I know she has trouble with her getting .
Who?
Her.
Innit?
If you wanna say no, fuck off!
You were turning your head away weren't you?
Yeah.
But I couldn't, like I was pissed anyway, know what I mean?
No you weren't.
Bollocks!
It's not important 
This one 
to what they're .
Yeah I but think he gave me all his drink.
Who?
Sam.
He gave it to you?
No, no, I was  drinking all his drinks .
Which Sam?
Sam, Sam, the one 
The one 
who was totally pissed.
Oh  or the other one?
No have you got, don't you know the other one?
No there's two we know.
Yeah.
The one with Kevin 
The one with the longish 
or the other one.
it's the other one.
Oh right.
The one with the long,he was funny man !
He's a, he was 
And he 
going
was totally out of it  weren't he?
Yeah.
And we were at MacDonalds and I was talking to her, anyway, he even got really jealous cos I was talking to her.
He started beating me up.
It was really funny.
How old is he?
Dunno is he nineteen?
Nineteen I think.
Is he?
Yeah.
He's a good bloke.
He is alright he is.
Yeah I know.
Everyone's alright.
He sort of like everyone, as soon as I got there  you know like that, that school or whatever 
Oh yeah.
Right.
You know this weekend like, everyone'll know you'll come.
Yeah.
Anyway, I, we should have a party, you know  down er 
Get some more beer.
down what's it called?
Down
Southgate thing.
No.
Southgate hall's alright.
It's like .
Ah.
For my school and for
Yeah, but er if we do have a party, yeah?
It's up me, you, you and Andrew, yeah?
I'm gonna go and get from my school .
Yeah and my school, and my school are best mates.
Yeah.
Some of my friends right, as soon as they come started bundling right?
Right.
Fuck off!
And just run away.
Really.
It's alright for me cos like I know everyone.
Andrew's school and my school.
Right?
Yeah.
But like Andrew when he gets real pissed  
I know some people now.
I know.
Right, I know the one's in this year.
Erm  ah fuck!
You know Matt ?
Who's that?
The one in the grey t-shirt.
Oh yeah, him, yeah.
Yeah.
And he's really funny.
And 
Him and  Andy got pissed right, and he could say oh there's a fire Andy!
There's a fire Andy!
And got blown away right.
Andy'll say  oh oh oh oh!
No, I know this other geezer, yeah?
Right.
I was dancing with Kate, yeah?
And, you know, in the thing, yeah?
And er, he can't, he can't take it, and he, sort of her took off me, yeah?
And I was dancing round with her, yeah?
And like  and like afterward he goes oh I'll .
Erm  like tal , talking and everything, yeah?
You know Lee, I can't remember his name, but I know him, yeah?
Like, cos I was talking to him in the party, yeah?
I know  what's his, that other Sam, and both Sams.
I know Nick.
That Chris.
I know , who's Chris?
The one in the green, er  hacker's jacket.
No.
Tall, massive .
Er er  got the .
Oh oh!
Yeah him.
The one who said th , that he liked that party?
Yeah.
Him, that's Chris?
Let's do it to him!
What?
Let's do it to him!
He's a fucking !
He'll absolutely 
Who is he?
You'll see him as we  he's so funny!
Just ghastly man!
Fucking hell!
Stay away from him man!
Ah but you know in Finchley, yeah?
Yeah.
Didn't he come with erm, Nick?
Nah.
He wasn't there.
It's like, that's where I fucking met him!
Did I tell you 
Yeah.
when we were in MacDonalds, I go  it may 
No.
be your fucking  's fault!
And it was
Yeah.
cos he fucking didn't turn up on time!
Yeah, what did he, what did he do?
Ah?
What did he do?
He didn't turn up.
They was waiting for him.
Mm.
Ah.
There they are.
Oh who was the 
He was that 
one with short black, yeah?
Cur curly?
?
No, nah.
Her friend?
I er, I think it was Claire.
Not sure.
How short was she?
She weren't short.
I mean short black hair, yeah?
Curly, yeah?
Curly 
I couldn't , I couldn't see anything anyway.
It's a mile away somewhere.
You were fucking going ,you were going 
Hmm!
You laugh.
you were, you go, ah you cut me, you cut me, you cut, you cut up.
You did cut me look!
I didn't cut you!
You went fucking mad!
It was fucking Andrew, you got them?
Fuck off!
It was Andrew who cut you you know.
You sort out a ticket?
Yeah.
Give me it.
Why?
I want you to show it someone.
Who?
A girl in my form.
Who?
Why?
I'll give it to you later.
Why does he want it?
I dunno, he needs it for something.
You got it on you?
Yeah, in my wallet.
I got, a got, I go, you know when they er thingy you, ee, you know when the put the thing on, yeah?
And go to the black one, yeah?
And th , I ain't got one but I got a ticket, yeah?
Do you wanna see it?
He goes no I don't like, just go in, yeah?
And Daniel  wouldn't go in cos he didn't 
Well Daniel's a poof though isn't he?
Alright Jess.
Because I had to pay a  then he paid off.
Oh fuck off!
Innit?
This is better in 
I fucking wore my jeans today.
D'ya remember in the first when we had curly going everywhere.
I was gonna sell my jeans to Andy.
Shit!
I ain't got no money.
Gimme it.
Is that 
Da 
it?
Yeah.
da da , da .
Why do you wanna show him it?
I dunno.
It's not bad in there.
Oh!
Kieran was narf quiet, quiet after.
Who?
Kieran.
Kieran?
Yeah.
That's cos I was annoyed.
He weren't pissed.
Did you see his love bite?
Yeah.
Oh well.
Did Nick go?
No.
Fucking chicken!
He could have wo , gone if he wanted to?
Well why didn't he?
But he don't mind you 
Cos he was scared , he's scared.
he don't like  meeting new people does he?
Ha?
He don't like meeting new people.
Exactly.
Don't say nuffing to him though.
I won't.
Oh he wouldn't even go out with Sherry yet, and like  he wouldn't even talk to her yet and like she's in the fucking same school er er
I think she .
Nope.
Cos I was sick the next morning actually.
Were you?
I didn't.
I thought I'd have a hangover, I didn't have a hangover.
Well I felt sick.
I suppose I had a mixture really.
I got up feel rough, er, did you mix it?
I mixed  I had some Malibu.
Oh right yeah, yeah.
I had Patrick , have that, have this, right?
That Malibu man, that's narf nice.
Malibu.
I shouldn't mix drinks and I can't fucking
What's that one you had?
That was well nice!
Taboo.
Is it?
That is fucking beautiful!
Elevenses, yeah?
Yeah, I'm not gonna mix it again.
I was bloody sick last time!
Elevenses.
Elevenses?
Oh ya!
Elevenses,.
I'm going home.
Have you got a phone card?
Where you going James?
I'm gonna home first.
Alright then.
I've snapped my phone card in half.
First to the ball.
Yeah, why d'ya snap it in half?
Cos I didn't know I was doing it?
Yeah, cos you're a    Elevenses.
Come on, let's go.
No, sixty seconds.
Do you want her phone number?
No I don't.
I'll get it for ya?
I don't want her pho , if I, right  it's really stupid, yeah?
If you go to a party, yeah?
And you got a girl, yeah?
Cos you can't get off with all, all the, the people you want to.
Know what I mean?
What?
It's really stupid if you go to a party, yeah?
With a girl, right?
Right?
Cos then you can't get off with the people you want to.
Know what I mean?
Someone'd get off with you?
What?
Are you coming to ?
Nah!
Elevenses.
I can count any people   got off with.
Actually I don't wanna  to get erm, hitting his head on a  with a hammer, I'll say that turns him on.

Right, hello, yeah, we're back.
Erm  Miss is trying to get rid of us.
Erm  we're sunbathing  even though there ain't no sun to sunbathe at.
Er
And erm  can you hear me?
Wait.
Wait Lis, I ain't got the things on.
Hold on.
Hold on then.
Tell Billy that
Yeah?
tell Billy that 
Hello now ca , can you hear me?
Yeah.
Alright.
Erm, look 
And 
we're gonna go soon cos like we dunno what else to say cos we've crushed you and everything.
We've done,we've used now .
But don't forget to make another tape alright?
Well you won't be able to use Richard's, but like sort of I dunno 
Yeah.
Richard's taking us back to school Wednesday.
If you got a tape at home or so , right you can record yourself at home.
Send it to that address alright?
That ain't my address.
That's Lisa's address .
No, it ain't.
It's  address.
Anyway, erm
It ain't my address, my address, but if anyone else writes me letters then  then please don't.
But 
But do it first class jammy stingy cunts!
but er, do they really want to write to you?
I don't think so .
Oh yeah !
And he'll jump at the chance to write to me.
We , can we say goodbye now.
Anyway, right, we're gonna
Oh no, there's Richard .
Ah!
Not again you cunts!
Right, hold on.
Right now, we're gonna go now anyway, so it wasn't worth turning over really.
Gonna get some sun.
We're gonna  for seven hours Lisa.
Oh no we ain't gonna
Ah!
She got, she's got an Arsenal top on.
The best you know, Arsenal .
I'm going to watch 
Lisa.
the F A Cup, you know.
Woo ooh!
Ooh you lied!
You lied!
You lied!
I can sit next to you.
I'm sure.
Anyway, right    we're gonna go now aren't we?
Are we going to go?
Yeah.
Do you know 
Right.
Lisa, she's got erm  you know, erm  Arnold Schwarzenegger
Aargh!
Aargh!
cut his head  and put Russell's head.
Imagine seeing him , no she ain't cut out, she ain't put Russell's head on there.
Russell can you give Lisa a picture of ya?
And Billy, give it, Lisa a picture.
All of yous give her a picture.
Aargh!
Right erm  don't believe what she just said cos she's just telling a load of lies right?
And, wait, wait, wait!
You do want a picture though.
Wait , but listen, but listen, she wants a pic , a picture of Billy and Russell.
Oh and er little Scott.
She thinks he's sweet.
Alright.
Bye!
We gotta go now.
Bye.
Yeah, bye right.
We're gonna go.
Bye!
Bye Russell!
Bye Scott!
Bye cutey Scott.
Bye blow job Billy.
Blow job Billy.
Blow job Billy .
Right, come on, let's go then.
Right here we go.
Blow job Billy !
Blow job Billy !
See ya later.
Bye!
Oh Carolina .
Don't forget to send a tape back.
And a tape 
Thumper.
Right.
I know, I know, I know .
Right.
Then it
Thumper thump .
Don't forget 
.
Oh watch how she   .
Do you know something?
Carolina, inform a .
And, what's the other one.
Aargh!
What's the oth , what's the other one?
Which one?
On the rivers of 
I'm sorry.
Ba 
Oh no .
Now listen  sorry about that  sort of concert at the end.
Ah that's alright.
But , we're definitely going now alright?
So  bye!
Bye !
But where is Elisha?
Right, one, two 
What?
Elisha.
Oh sorry about that, I was just 
Where's Elisha?
Jason, Jason's sister.
Alright, one, two, three, go  Bye !
Bye !
stop ha having all those and  over  you know who.
I ca , oh my tape!
I've only just noticed.
It's recording  on
Well I ca 
fifteen.
What?
It's alright.
Forget it.
Mm mm.
Ow!
Ben you gonna get, when you getting your new trainers anyway?
Dunno.
Cos it  it takes ages.
Takes ages?
For what?
Yeah well well for 
For what?
Because I, I've gotta get the sprays.
Oh yeah.
Well, well you buy them yourself?
Yo ain't your Dad can't yo da Dad fork out for something like that, something like fifty quid.
Mm.
It depends .
Trainers.
Oh trainers!
Yeah, I'm gonna have some soon.
Can't you, what's this?
I couldn't afford it.
I was calling the white bag.
I was going, woo ooh!
Come on man.
Wouldn't it be good, wouldn't it be good.
Super orgasms!
Ha ah.
Ben  stop telling him what you, what you dream of with
Oh fuck off!
Where does it say to your 
he wa , he wants to  erm
Wherever you say that means to your Mum.
Yeah alright then.
He wants to do
That's to  Mum's, you talking about me?
No I ain't .
I'm talking about 
Oh really?
That's funny.
He wa , he he wants  to do her .
No I do not.
What the train in the  big hole?
Yeah .
He wants to  ride in a Mercedes.
No he's a
Skoda.
Beetle  he's a  Mini.
Mini Skoda.
And his Skoda's  .
He wants his little tunnel.
When?
That was about Ben really.
third base .
Third base he don't know nothing man!
What about the home run?
Well that took ages!
You, you don't even know what it is do ya?
You don't, you don't even know what we're talking about do ya?
Home run and all that ?
Yeah.
Who told ya?
Me.
And me .
No.
I don't think it was.
Chunky.
Chunky.
But how did she know?
How did she know?
Chunky told us.
They call me Chunky !
Billy!
Oi!
Have you ever been to fourth base?
Like have you been hu , have you ever had a home run.
Who with?
Who with?
Who with?
Te , tell me the gossip!
I know Chunky.
He's chunky!
I was 
Oh er whatsername?
chunky!
I kno know who.
May I tell you?
Oh right, Sam right.
It's Sam you fool !
Natalie!
Natalie.
Natalie Natalie.
Alright.
Imagine going a home run with someone you know.
Kel, what's the matter?
I want Mummy !
She'll be here in a minute.
Why does she want Mummy?
Oh yeah, she knows why.
Oh yeah.
No, as anyone, do you reckon anyone would ever go a home run?
I want mummy 
Nah!
Well  Yeah.
Only wa , only wa , yeah?
Er, here?
At our age?
No 
No.
one would.
No one would.
Especially not him .
Alright, he wo , he wouldn't wa know what to do.
I wouldn't think so.
He'll go  what's this ?
Where's that go?
Ah.
He goes 
He goes 
what's, what's this meant to do?
And he goes
I I I
he's got his   cock .
Rich, Rich  what's this?
Okay, he's got a magnifying glass.
A microscope.
Vis , only visible, not visible to the naked eye.
Look at this.
Eyes undressed.
What's the matter Kel?
I wonder what that looks like.
I want my Mummy !
Mummy be home in about twenty minutes.
Mummy !
Mum'll be back.
A a  a home run, imagine doing that, a home run you know.
That means  you know, it means getting married 
Yeah,putting in.
and all that.
Home run.
Ah me , no one would get married at the age of fourteen
They are a load of prats!
Have you seen Rocky?
Rocky ?
What did he do the home run?
Yeah , I've seen Rocky.
There's Rocky over there.
Rocky!
Rocky  !
They call him boss is, of the home run.
We do, do, what's the, what's third base?
That was er
Nah.
It was er
That was sleeping weren't it?
Yeah.
That's , er, that was sleeping with  someone.
Second base was ju , you know, just er thingy.
Yeah.
Her thingy .
Third base was just like sta , asking them out and like kissing them and what have you.
First, second, third  what's fourth?
Fa , fourth man, that was home run.
That was the home run.
Oh yeah!
Home run.
Home run was like, married, baby and all that.
Carl would you ever would you ever do a home run?
No.
Er don't, don't you play rounders?
A mummy's little boy.
Do you like doing home , do you ge , do you get a home run?
That's a home
Yes!
run.
Are you the home run?
Who with?
Who for?
Who for?
I want my Mummy !
Shh shh, are you  get a 
Shush.
home run?
Is it recording?
Yeah.
I want my Mummy !
Yeah.
What?
Don't cry.
Who's that?
And get ,right near down my throat.
Shush!
Say  Say 
No I'm not !
Alright.
I'll go
No cos you said had a home run with  
D'ya know, d'ya know , d'ya know the home run and all that?
Home run, Home run, like married and baby and all that, that's a home run?
Yeah .
He goes to, he goes with 
Right, can take it to me?
Why?
Just take it to me.
Well where do you wanna take it?
We can hear it while we're taping it.
Wind it as you, cos I wanna, I want it.
I want it.
I wanna nick this thing.
Right.
Oh  , you can't tape it in there.
Right now Lisa 
What is it recording?
Off you go Lisa.
She thinks Russell's a sod.
Don't tell Russ , I mean, oh Russell's gonna li , are you gonna let listen, Russell listen?
Most probably, yeah.
Let him listen.
Cos  enough bad things 
Yeah, but, yeah but 
things about 
Lisa , Lisa, Lisa thinks everyone's a sort.
No but Lisa says enough bad things about me and about Billy so I want Billy to hear, so hear er ah.
That way enough
No.
Billy.
Don't, don't say nuffink to Lisa though right that you heard it.
Okay?
Are you 
Okay?
listening?
I said okay!
Yes!
Okay!
O and K.
Okay?
Right ready.
We were pointing at you 
Right.
Lisa thinks Russell's a sort.
Emma don't know what he looks like.
And we, we told her that he was nice  and all that.
Oh.
That I, I ain't saying
Emma would go out with anyone wouldn't she?
Yeah she does.
Mm mm.
She asked E , she asked Billy out you know?
Had a 
Did she?
shock didn't ya?
Yeah.
Yeah.
She was gonna, she's going to James  party she's gonna go .
Go out with him.
Go with him.
Go with him?
Yeah.
Not all the way.
You remember when 
She's going, you know go 
remember when someone kissed Emma.
When?
It was ages ago.
No.
Did they?
Yeah!
Oh I heard, I heard yeah 
and then kissed her 
on the cheek or something.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Leigh  and me.
Why?
He's gorgeous.
He is gorgeous!
Who's he?
, Leigh  he works in the chip shop.
He is gorgeous!
Gave everyone a kiss.
Chip shop?
Cos we bo , cos we bought him a birthday present right.
Where?
Where?
From the house.
Wha what geezer?
Chip shop down there, right.
And how old is he?
He's erm
Mm?
dunno how old he is.
About fifteen.
Right, and erm  and  he goes to us, can I give you a kiss?
And we goes, later, later cos Lisa we , and Emma weren't here like and he was going, give me a kiss.
I thought, no, I don't think so.
Not while Emma's not here.
You know Emma
Mm.
she's , she was walking with Lisa and I weren't there and her Mum sh jus , like she muc , she mucks about a lot and she told Leigh that if he don't serve her he's gonna die, she's gonna punch him right!
Cos she's quite big, you know.
And he goes, God!
I goes, I'm gonna tell Sue tonight.
Okay I won't.
And he goes, no don't she's squashing me!
Someone had told her.
Anyway, she pulls, she's dragged , I tell you she dragged her, she dragged, she dragged 
Who are they?
Who are they?
Emma  right up here, she grabbed Emma in there and 
Hey.
then, she dragged 
Did you walk?
she dragged Emma in there  she dragged Emma in there and made her kiss him, made him kiss her.
And when I came in there it is he .
Yeah, cos they went out.
Who, who is it?
Right.
Billy  Russell, did not hang about with them.
doesn't hang about with right
So wa , why?
Cos they were on about Emma.
Don't you want that?
Did they go about her?
I don't know if they went about with her.
Amy don't hang about with us, okay?
Stop asking us please.
Fuck off .
Fuck off Debbie.
Who's that?
Debbie.
Who's that girl?
Is she recording?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
thinks  a sort
Mhm.
She ain't seen him.
Well what, what's he like?
Did you go out with  Knuckles?
Should that ?
No!
Not  
What?
Billy.
But if  Billy said yeah would you really  are you free?
Shh!
Yeah!
Badly!
She wants to go out with him badly I tell you that.
Real?
Badly.
Knuckles.
Who wants a game of knuckles?
!
I goes, erm, Emma do ?
She goes erm  well erm, yeah.
They were all saying, they're all saying, right, everyone in school knows about it now.
Don't know how it got round cos it's all over Emma's books and Lisa's right  and they're going, who's Billy then?
My mate Hayley wants a .
She was going he ain't really nice.
She was going, Emma goes  well he ain't ugly, he's quite nice actually.
In other words, she's trying to say he's nice looking.
Sort of like came out like that, alright Billy, she thinks you're gorgeous.
I think she's gorgeous.
Mm.
You know I'm still recording.
So?
Yeah I know.
Good.
Good.
I bet you're thinking .
I can't now.
Oi right erm
I'm gonna start sanding my bike tomorrow.
Oh.
Oh oh.
And then I get
Be easy for Chunky.
if you say things.
No I say   oh that's right.
Don't tell her.
Well Lisa is fat actually.
Yeah she's  she's  not medium.
I haven't seen her with all her clothes off you know.
She's got, probably got about ten tops on.
You know Amy?
Yeah.
Do you reckon that er is, her sister?
Her brother I mean?
Amy?
Mm.
Oh!
Now I've written on the pencil case.
I wrote Emma, I goes can I write Emma for Billy for you?
She goes, yeah alright then.
She does .
And then she goes, it don't come off now, I wrote Emma for Billy  and Russell, and Richard.
Well she never realized till today .
Ooh sorry, what she do?
Frances , she goes  ooh Frances what's this?
She goes, it won't come off now.
Going oh God!
Well er, she er, she only 
She was trying to rub it off!
Jenny wants my, mine and Russell's name on her, and mine, just mine.
She won't, she won't want Russell's name up, no.
I don't know .
She does want Billy's name up that for sure cos it's all over 
Yeah I know that.
her book.
She wants Russell's name off.
And mine.
Oh I, you should see her books.
And mine.
Her books, and she's, she's a right boffin right  her books are really clean, she don't never write on them, and she moans at me writing them, you know I always write Frances was here or something, like that, like you do.
Mm.
Her books are splattered in  Billy!
In Tippex, even worse.
She gets in trouble by the teachers.
She writes all over the table and all.
Mr  goes to her in English then, don't you ever stop writing Billy on your books?
Teacher got her showed up .
Just shows she fa , she fancies him.
Mr  went, oh Emma!
It was really embarrassing, Emma's 
Who's E 
sitting down
who's Emma been out with?
hold up, Emma was sitting down and Mr , Emma!
Do you ever stop writing Billy all over your books?
She goes, what sir?
He, he goes, do you ever stop writing Billy all over your book?
And she started laughing.
She was really embarrassed.
Everyone started going, Emma!
And then .
Emma's been out with  erm  about ten people.
Leigh   at the caravans, Leigh   and 
They're all Leighs .
Yeah she likes Leigh , Leigh , Leigh   erm who was that one?
All that  Leigh .
.There's Tony.
Where?
That ain't Tony.
Yeah right, erm  what shall I say?
No.
Billy told me about  what school does Billy go?
Eastleigh.
Oh!
He told me he'd been to .
No.
But surely he goes, he said mine will go in there.
Why would he tell you?
Why would
My tea , my science teacher  my science teacher, she said to me,, he used say well  they bunk off out of their lessons, they hit the teachers, she goes, cos she worked in there,
They do.
They go, they go and, they er break into shops.
Mm.
She said, cos she said 
Cos they learn how to in the shops.
When th they feel, they just rush in one shop and nick it.
She don't know none of their names though.
I thought I'd mentioned the names but she said no.
Look, she'll probably go back  oh yeah, you know th , this er Emma what goes arou , goes out with all the Leighs, she, she'll be  Billy, Bill Leigh.
Oh yeah.
Bill Leigh.
Leigh.
Yeah, that's right that.
She likes boys called Leigh, named Leigh, Leigh ,, Leigh   Bill Leigh , B J.
B J.
She, she's writing a note 
B J?
you know Ash, B J 
What?
B J.
Don't mean nothing.
You know B J, it stands for blow job right.
You fu ,.
Oh B .
Jane .
Oh no, well, Billy's name's 
B J.
B J.
Well Billy's name's Billy  and you know we was writing it on the floor just after we found that out  his second name, and, and they said  B J!
And someone shouted out, I shout out Billy
Blow job.
do you recognize anything from your initials?
He goes, what?
I had to say it about three times for the boy to understand.
And he goes, and I goes, blow job!
And then when he came down he goes that weren't that wa , that weren't me who thought that, it was Emma's dirty mind.
Yeah.
And then we started shouting out,blow job Billy .
Someone's in Darren's house.
I want to watch 
Ah alright?
we was watching him go and change before.
Not change, only from the waste upwards.
Then we told him.
He goes to me,Francais I like your shoes .
I goes, I like your long bushy hair.
His hair's down to here now innit?
Mm mm.
I hate him!
Such a greaseball.
Do you think, do you think he's got a good home?
We co , we, we was phoning erm Billy, couldn't get through right, and erm
I just bought myself .
erm  Daryll 
Right.
and I was gonna say Daryll, let us borrow your phone?
Daryll's got a portable phone?
Yeah.
So I said Daryll let us borrow your phone?
One of my mates went and put all my money in the phone you know to phone Billy.
Who's that?
She was moaning  and then she moaned.
Do you know how much we put in at night  to phone Billy?
How much?
Ma , we all put about three pound in.
Not each, just three pound that's all.
How much is it before we said?
Who was it?
And we was going  what's her name now?
Get off that phone!
Lisa's on the phone.
Who is she phoning?
I think it was before we spent ten pound on the phone.
Dunno who he's speaking to, Lisa or me.
Nine pound something like that.
I don't know.
We was phoning any old one.
Oh Billy told me to say  Billy told me to say  something and he rang us.
He told me to say something and I said no 
What today?
but , I forgot.
Nah.
This is  this, not  today, it was yesterday.
When go , when did he say he was coming down?
He said to tomorrow he's coming down.
What for?
I ee, I ain't here right  when he comes down.
.
I'm down the Roman
Cos she's indoors.
Don't worry about it.
Now he knows I ain't here don't he?
Now you know I'm not here.
Bash in my windows !
Cos when he come round  I ain't looking at him.
Cos Lisa will really show me up.
Wait, are you still recording?
I wish we found some, you know.
Lisa when , and you can tell er Lisa that so I can start laughing at her.
Now if she starts laughing at Billy and Russell, you know  she don't wanna 
No, ever, everything we say she laughs at.
Who Emma?
Oh yeah.
Oh!
Lisa.
Lisa.
If we say something to her watch her laugh.
Oh Lisa says she don't wanna come  
She's shy.
Rich,thanks for asking her .
She's shy.
I have asked no one!
What?
Oh well .
Her Mum give, her Mum gave her thirty pounds one Saturday, for nuffink right.
She don't spend no money.
Her Mum gives her enough money.
Cos her Mum won a lot of money.
You know these scratch and win cards, well her Mum got a lot of money anyway.
She gives 
How much , how much she got?
She got, she only won ten thousand, but like  I mean, not ten thousand,yeah ten thousand, yeah ten thousand but like  she's got a lot of money anyway like.
How much?
Erm she got
Roughly.
Don't know.
Like she's got enough.
You don't show it but like  she don't go out and buy new posh clothes and everything.
How much d'ya reckon she's got?
Dunno.
Dunno how much she's got.
Her Mum's got a lot of money cos ev you know Lisa sh , her Mum goes, her Mum's gone  can you hold this tin of paint and they're in Sport , you know the trainer shop?
Mm.
And she's dropped a tin of paint all over her trainers.
Mm.
The next day she goes in the .
. And she gets, and she's always getting new clothes and new shoes.
Every time she asks she gets it.
Ben.
We wanna go over there!
Emma wants to say hello to Billy.
Mm.
What in?
Don't you think that's silly right that she wants  Emma's body.
He'll have to pay.
Come on Billy!
Billy!
Come on Billy!
That's it.
Oh God!
Urgh, urgh, urgh, urgh!
I wanna get an Arsenal t-shirt.
I wanna get a Millwall.
I don't , I don't wanna get the Arsenal kit cos I ain't wearing shorts, I tell ya.
And the long socks do nothing for my legs.
I'll get 
Never mind.
the top.
Yeah, Lisa erm
I'm getting the top.
Lisa, her Mum gives her about  every Saturday she gives her a tenner, but if she's going out she gets a lot of money right.
Yeah.
How much?
I don't  I don't know.
Alright, she gets a lot of money.
If she don't  mind you, she don't buy a lot of stuff.
She's really good like .
Erm, like if you get the money, spend it, I always spend my money on loads of shit and I end up with nothing at the end of the day.
But her  she don't spend her money  because she don't get nuffink at the end of the day.
She's always got money leftover.
I've got shitty .
What do you get?
Well nuffink  at the end of my day.
I just normally buy like  water bombs, things like that.
No I have to buy 
Now I could buy 
sprays and 
No!
Listen.
You told me Stevie  was coming round once before so I got all these water bombs, water bombs ready for them  and they came round  they weren't there.
Wasted our water bombs.
Loads of them.
We was gonna throw them at you.
Mhm.
You Billy and Russell  water fight.
Are you weren't throw over there, in the corner there .
No , that's 
What?
over there Ben.
Yeah, over there.
We went over there.
Yeah.
Yeah well that's, that's where they poured the fucking water over them.
Lisa , Lisa, Lisa, buys all the balloons, let them blow the balloons up, she goes alright who buys the balloons?
And every time she never pays for them no one.
You know Jan  across the road right.
Yeah.
You know the big balloon
Mm.
it's like party balloons, she's got like water balloons  I mean,with water   and, they was, I had them in this box mucking about, I was trying take something out, and then like  we dropped a water balloon in their bathroom and erm, we started having water fight, and that  they filled them up and go into the balloons and then you go and tie it up
Mm.
they was pouring over us.
Emma  was soaked.
It was socked everywhere!
I mean everywhere!
It was  on the mat.
It lo like covered one of us.
In the corner .
Then they, then they weren't looking.
You!
She should have got in trouble by her Mum.
Lisa found water bombs in the , in that box they was getting soaked.
In fact, they were allowed to let them out last night.
Oh.
Go and tell her Mum.
You si , you you remember, remember that Tania?
Yeah, we remember when you shouted here she comes.
Yeah, only cos it hurt 
And you hit with it.
Now you stopped me, you fucking started it.
You, you both su some of it, you soaked ours on the roof.
No I di , after we've come up here 
Oh go on  then.
Shh shh shh shh.
No!
I was sitting on the roof trying to get my gun.
That fucking water.
Oh oh oh!
Wait 
No!
wait, wait, you know you told us to use the rest of them  and we didn't even get a  I think  she asked me 
Oh she would.
the address.
She's a mong!
Yeah , but she kept saying what's saying what's the address right?
I'm going I don't know.
I can't remember what Richard said.
And then, and then she goes, she goes can't you just ask him?
I goes no, you knock at his door.
Cos it, cos it sounds like I wanna know it.
I dunno.
Emma's still got .
She was the one, she was the one who wanted Billy's phone number as well.
Mm.
She made me go and ask your Mum for it.
And she goes, you know what's, I goes Val  have got Billy's phone number?
She goes, Billy?
And then she went and wrote it down, she goes, here are.
The next day she's in my house in the front of my Mum and everyone, she goes, did you phone Billy up?
My Mum when d'ya phone Billy up for?
It's not, that like horribly, but mucking about, trying to say you know 
Er ever since Billy come round it's always been 
what?
about Billy innit?
Mm?
Every time Billy come around it's always been about Billy?
Right,and and then alright   and then  she goes, your Mum came out in front of everyone, she goes  why, no, no, yeah, she goes did you phone Billy yesterday then?
My Mum goes what have you been phoning Billy for?
I goes  Emma wants to go out with him.
I said it was Emma wanted the number didn't she?
Mm.
So she could even .
She ends up talking about him though in the park.
Since Billy's come around that's all we've been talking about.
Mm.
Yeah cos I just wanna grass Emma and she always grasses me back.
Let's grass Emma up.
What's she been saying about Billy Rich?
I don't know.
Come on.
You know when we was  you know when we was playing  what was she saying?
She, she weren't there.
No she was listening though.
She said she liked him didn't she?
Oh come on, she said something sh she always gets me.
Don't tell her, I'm telling you.
Yeah you said something about me and Emma!
Ha!
No I never.
Mm.
It was either you or Amy.
Amy.
Amy.
Don't mention her name please.
Why?
Don't you like her?
Yeah.
Oh yeah!
But she don't hang about me.
Why?
She just don't.
They keep calling her a liar cos she hangs about with me.
Remember ages ago  when they knocked for you and Billy
No.
Ooh.
Ah!
Ben!
We just dropped the subject of Billy and started it up!
Yeah, you 
You prat!
you and Billy knocked for me and
Oh yeah, we was going and Richard was watching us.
Why didn't yous come out?
Oh cos we was doing something about yous and Billy.
Oh yeah!
Yeah, yeah, yeah!
We was.
What?
What was it then?
No we're not.
We were doing something  me and Billy and Amy.
Oh te tell me.
I wouldn't tell everyone you 
Billy was gonna do something but it didn't work out.
It worked out, we'd done it all and that but then
What was it?
What was it meant to be about?
You went to the marathon and that's why we couldn't do it to ya.
What was it?
What was it meant to do?
It was just a joke.
We was gonna put something up a pole and er 
Oh what are you going on about?
Can't be bo couldn't be bothered?
Put something up the what?
Oh yeah.
Thanks for asking us to come to the marathon.
That is really, really nice of ya  like.
Why, why do I ask you to come to the marathon?
Because, this is what Emma did right.
She said when, when Mrs  said why did you ask Emma she goes, cos we asked you to go the cinema all the time.
Right?
That's what she said?
Yes.
And then, hang on
Woo ooh!
say, say, saying that we don't hang about in the , he's gone  say that.
But we do , we don't always exactly go then wherever you go do we?
Right, and then she said  Billy's got the cheek  cos that's boring around here  and it's boring 
Well it is.
cos he don't do nuffink right, and when he does do 
Ah but she wouldn't exactly go down, go down 
right going down there.
with someone wearing like,you know 
She goes, she goes  this is what she did, right?
She goes, Billy's got the cheek to say it's boring round here cos he's 
Ben.
and when he don't come out  oh and when he does go out he don't ask us to go out, he'll say nah.
All my, all 
And then I said that they don't hang about with us enough.
She goes yeah, so?
But we still ask them, it wouldn't he , it wouldn't he , saying like it wouldn't help them to ask 
Yeah but when we do come round whe , while, when yous asked us, she doesn't do nuffink.
She goes woo ooh ooh, I've done it.
Ooh ooh, ooh ooh.
And she said that yous are really out of order not going she said because she wanted to sit in that close with 
Mm.
Yeah.
Da, dun na da .
Billy!
I ain't saying nuffink any more.
Yeah.
Well she's Billy, even if she wants to, sat down and
Yeah, but now we've found out, I mean like, like 
It'll hard , it'll hardly 
everyone sits down
it'll hardly be me or Russell will it?
Or Ben.
Billy'd have to be, yeah, this is what I'm saying, and then we  like we'd move up so Emma sit next to him, but she wouldn't knowing her.
What, she'd sit with  sitting on her own?
She said if I could get us chucked outside the cinema, chucked out the cinema cos  Billy said he'd get us chucked out the cinema for, she goes and we can all pretend  we don't them .
He goes let them 
I 
ge go by theirselves.
I'd, I'd go back in.
I wouldn't .
Oh yeah.
Of your .
This is boring!
Good job Emma's gone on holiday.
She's, then she can't hear all this.
What Emma's gone on holiday?
Yeah.
I, I've 
Oh!
Oi right erm  don't tell her I told you this but she's doing    the karate!
She's beating me up.
Women can't do 
I bet she is.
karate you prat!
Some women.
Why not?
No, what she said about, about what she says  there's me, I haven't been talking about her, don't tell her this.
Who can't do karate?
I don't think Paul's done karate.
He has.
Oh has he?
Oh well  well great!
Well this is boring, you know.
I know.
Er er, no, no, no, no!
Here she is humping the bed!
I wanted , I wanted, I wanted Emma  to get grassed up.
Say something to her when she comes back, say erm  Richard was you supposed to send erm  did Laura come up to you and sa sa say that you, did she ask you out something like that?
No.
Di da , did I ask  Ursula.
Yeah, Emma that is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well she's  I had a right go at over that.
I had a right argument over that.
Who did , them two?
No, me and Laura did.
Why?
No, because she said something, she said that I said something didn't she?
She said
No.
she said Français said.
No, she said er  she said, she goes  look Rich  do you like  ?
No, we got that off Danny .
Why?
Oh God!
Because  and then she goes erm all quiet and say something so me and Amy and Emma jump in.
All one thing, and then er 
All one 
Lis , Emma and Amy jumped out and left me in by myself.
And they, they, we was on the floor and they used to make shit out of her I'm telling ya.
Well, well done.
Am , but then, Lisa's Mum goes  .
Ah.
I wouldn't like to fight her.
No she's alright actually.
Laura  why do , why does, why did Laura come up and ask me  oh I said well, I said er  yes alright.
Who said something?
No one.
That's why, cos she said I'm just gonna know, I was gonna say to Richard that  I was gonna ask Richard if if Emma, if he wants to go out with Emma?
Did ya?
Did ya?
That's what she said.
No, she said  that  she came up and asked you  if you wanna go out with Emma 
No.
or something like that.
she said did you ask 
And she said 
Emma out?
she said, I said Français said  do, Français said do you wanna go out with Emma  she said.
No, she co come and told me  did you ask Emma out?
And we're all going Wimpy tomorrow night again.
Are you?
Yes.
Lucky you.
Emma's a right pain in the Wimpy.
She don't buy nuffink, she, all she has is a hamburger and drink.
She spilt all the milk shake down her.
All on the 
Oh God !
floor, everywhere!
Did she ?
And, what's, Amy, Amy's doing burps last Saturday, you know you do them ?
Yes.
Not little ones.
Long.
Amy's mad when she does them.
Amy does extra long, extra long!
And th , and the man was laughing at her cos she was putting everyone off their dinner.
We had all the back seat taken up.
Hoo ooh!
She does that.
bark .
We were laughing so much .
Who?
Richard , he does that anyway.
Ask if you take ?
Yeah she was there.
Woo ooh ooh!
Woo!
Three thirty five.
Got enough clothes for a model, you look rich.
All nice clothes, like.
When she comes out in nice clothes I say  get them for modelling?
She goes yeah.
She knows her Mum goes out and buys
No, what catalogue's she in?
No she's  from erm
She don't do it no more does she?
Yeah.
Mm.
She does that one as well.
She gave me the modelling   Erm Avon, she might be doing two mightn't she?
I don't know.
Me, me, me , me, me, me.
You going now?
Yeah.
See you later then.
Yeah.
You getting that 
That.
which  the red one?
Yeah.
Where you going, to work?
Yeah.
Bye-bye then.

Oh, wow
But don't say that, I can't
Pipe down, sorry, get out.
I'm not too good at seeing 
I'm sorry,
I'm fed up of your behaviour, you get out too.
Out, I'm fed up.
Did you get that on the microphone?
I'll put the headphones on and I'll turn it on loud so I can hear.
I'll  so I can hear.
Excuse me
I'm sick of your behaviour, it is  bye.
Let me put the headphones on and alright, I'll play that back.
Pam, over 
Alright then.
Can I listen to me going Glowworm through the 
I haven't got that tape, I've got a new tape now 
Okay if I do it now can I listen to it.
Glowworm do, do, do, do, Glowworm do, do, do, do.
No, I'm going to switch it off in a minute
Hungry, ha, ha, ha 
When you're going
let me hear now
And, and I say, is that when you pay your friends for cakes or something, and you went no
I wasn't actually explaining what it was
Yes
How you get in a sleeping bag and that, oh no
yes, yes, and I said, and I said, you don't have charm or anything, and you go oh I do with .
So you started, you wanted to go in your sleeping bag 
I never meant it like that, no, you don't go to the same  you wanker
I know, but you go in a different one 
That's what it sounded like 
I'll get in your sleeping bag
Hey let me just go ha, ha, ha 
No, no hold on, hold on.
No
Just speak, just speak.
hello
See you can just hear it in the earphones
Hello, hello , I can hear me, I can hear me talking now
I know, just listen.
Hungry,
Ah, have you got any sweets?
Oh, I can see Hugo.
No, ow, Hugo, come and help us, oh my God it's so weird.
Erm, oh er, in P E, erm, we're setting up tents, and I was  the bats and I'm amazed, something just happened.
Eh, hey, hey, you've cut your hand when you're doing   
Yes, but I, I, I didn't know, I mean I didn't feel that, I just realised my hand was bleeding and the skin's gone like that, look, the skin's gone like that.
I've put a plaster on like that.
Owen, did Owen, did Owen tell you what happened, how he was bunking?
Yes, that's why they started beating each other up.
Who?
Owen, and Owen, do you have P E, they did, how?
Owen said he wanted to go, and I said don't go, come over  and hassle, so I  and run off.
you're sick  Oi, gov., shift me, did you have French period off today?
Did you have French period off today?
Yes
We did, I washed my hair this morning.
But I, I've only just come in, so I'm well arsed.
you look dead
I never thought you were sort of like, sort of like a rough boy.
I'm not a boy, a man.
Yes, yes, that's what she erm,
If you want to do that, you've got a  son, then  
Can't touch it , what?
Bloody hell 
No I haven't, oh, alright.
Oh how are you then?
Oh, hi Leon
Oh, oh
Why don't you comb that down?
Why did you want it up?
do, do, be do, do, be, do,
Why did you do that David?
What?
Are you recording?
yes, I'm recording right now.
Are you?
I have been recording for ages.
No you're not.
yes, I am now.
Say speak, speak up to six notes and he thinks he's
no, no, I, I can play much more than six notes of that, no
Seven?
Eight?
No, no, about twelve, about twelve.
Twelve, you can play twelve notes.
I don't know, I don't know exactly there's too many to count.
Twelve
You don't need more than that many notes right now, especially with what I'm write , with what I'm playing.
Twelve notes.
And er, I've been learning flats and sharps and all that.
You know your recorders are so shit.
No they're not.
Your recorder  are so shit.
Do you play it any more?
yes, I used to.
I used to want to work at the violin, and I played it for two years.
it's a shame if you haven't got anyone musical here.
Haven't what?
Got anyone musical here.
yes we have.
So I like Guns 'n Roses.
Well I have.
You just learn to give it, you just always criticise me whatever happens.
No
If someone was good, you'd still say that about them 
No, I only could say it about you, you say  
You say yes, exactly, if there's a nice girl you know, you'll say, oh she's alright.
And if she's really nice, because you just like criticising people.
I only criticise you and David.
Yes, but why because you're horrible?
I, yes, because I hate you.
Yes, that's not very nice, I thought I was your friend.
Is that what to say to people you hate?
No, but, I, I yes, but I don't hate anybody in particular.
Who can I hate?
Me
No I don't hate you.
why?
I like you because you're my friend.
But I'm evil to you.
yes, you 
So
I used you, yes?
Oh yes?
No
You won't mind  and picked up the obvious, and you're going to get out back to  It's only Sarah and 
That's not true that's not true , no it's not.
yes it is, it is don't say it isn't.
Do both Owens know?
No, Owen doesn't, O N, O M doesn't, so why do they always phone me up with their problems?
It's er, I don't know, they're having a  at us 
yes, are you.
Going home.
Are you still recording?
yes, what lies.
Did you get that bit erm, when I was speaking to you about how everybody hates you and stuff?
I did.
Did you.
yes, I'm recording right now.
Yes, yes, can I listen to it.
No, I'm not listening to anything.
Oh, you're bluffing.
I am not 
You're evil, Satan  You are Satan
Yes alright, you're mad
Leon, You're Satan, You're evil
You're mad
You are a  killer, you are evil.
You're mad.
You're going to go away.
let's look at the machine.
Oh what fun.
Bye
Whew, Oh, so that's what the other side looks like, I knew all along.
Whaa, whaa, yes, you're so stupid.
For heaven's sake, put that in there,is that where all the money comes?
Money, money.
Oh, that's my bus fare home.
oh, yes 
It is.
you're the yak-chucker?
So you're a coke man?
Your lace is undone.
I know.
So do it up.
Right, well look.
Satan, Satan, Satan, Satan, Satan 
right then, I'll fuck off and you see how you like it, eh?
Satan, Satan, Satan, Satan, Satan  Satan.
I'm not Satan.
you are
I can't possibly be
You are Satan itself
not seeing this.
Okay let's go outside.
Okay we're now outside.
did you get that?
You are Satan.
He's Satan everybody, he is, he's Satan, you just be careful, he is evil 
Shut up.
Leon, you're evil.
I'm sure I am, but you're lovely.
He's condensed evil, you are ,Everyone ask Leon because he's recording.
He's not.
don't cry.
I'm not crying, I'm trying to pick you up.
Come, come, come, ow, ow, ow, ow  Don't pick me, oh, Leon, oh, oh.
Ne, na, ne, na   computer
yes, er, you're hyper man, you're well hyper.
Leon,
I'm just going to talk to these girls.
No
come on over,
Eh,Hello, what are you doing?
What's this?
Lessons.
Are you?
Do you just stay with neighbours, or just stay with your parents?
Are you going on that?
Her parents are.
What is that, what's it about?
Holidays.
How was your holiday?
Say that but.
I don't know.
Oh, is this the thingy?
Oh yes, this is the
,
You went on holiday with 
Was I here?
What
Was there
Who
Was here
Who was
I don't know, you're  later.
What's the time for you  please.
Excuse me  has anybody got the time.
I have  not 
have you got the time?
have you got the time?
No, yes.
Erm,Twenty to,
Twenty to Hugo
One
Twenty to one, no is isn't.
Two,
That would mean it's lunch time.
You haven't got a watch.
Yes, you have,you'll crack your ball.
Remember it isn't twenty to one.
I won't, don't worry, good.
It's twenty to twelve you ignorant child.
Who?
He hasn't 
yes,then she comes and sits down next to us.
Don't check their name.
Who?
It's no good, Simon  isn't there.
yes, he is.
Yes, well he shouldn't see, cos he can, he can check his own name can't he?
Yes, what do you want?
yes, then we go to 
Is Naomi in?
Yes, Naomi's in isn't she?
yes, what about Lindzi no?
Kari, Kari's in.
in.
Roy,great horse.
Gail's in, and so is that Lisa.
Ah, Naomi's not in.
Is that a pen, I thought that was a pen.
I, I just never had, I just threw it down  sent the pen flying.
What's the time?
Erm, it's twenty to.
No it's not actually.
Keep violence off our screens  says Mayor
Oh Emily don't do that, erm, I'm still working with that, she goes like this, she goes 
Urgh, urgh, ow  
That is so wicked.
That is mean.
That's wicked.
Wait until you see my moustache, it's a really long one down to here.
it is so long 
And does it come off again?
yes, it does.
Open your mouth,
did you, did you get all of that then?
Lock you in 
No I don't want that.
Wham, bam, be, do, bam, be-dam, bam, boo.
Oh, yes 
Wham, bam, ba, loo-la wasn't it first?, or  or something,
Wham bam ba loo-la, that was crap when she said  
zombie,
yes, I know, but
When's the next time that we've got school after ?
Erm, next, the Wednesday, not the next one, instead it's the one after I think.
What sort of thing  first?
Are those eggs all done, they're cracked?
I know.
Oi,
Get out of my hearing you  
Get out bloody you, get out of it.
Right what do you want?
You could have filled it in.
Oh, aren't you funny?
The king of diarrhoea.
Bigger than you.
No speaking first year language.
what are you doing over here anyway?
What?
He can speak funny, er, what do you want?
Water
quand ne m'appelle tu?
What are you in here?
They're not, er, can I speak to you in French 
Are they having lesson in here in a minute, I think  
we're late.
Shall we go now, I think we're very late because everyone's gone in 
Sim, come on, and you're, and you're it.
Right, come on, come on
Thank you.
And she saw it dancing like a hole 
we're late
Oh no
Hold on, are we late?
You are forgiven Leah?
Is it really okay, I'm sorry it won't happen again.
give us the salt?
Oh, good that's alright then, I can be excused.
No please can I have it.
Yes, I need it.
Are you doing Geography?
Wham, bam boo, whop, bam boo
Is that hot, oh, it's all cold.
Oh yes
It's cold.
I could go to sleep
Any of mine, I don't think you  say whether they're  does it?
It doesn't tell you enough , erm, what
What's in here?for report.
It's no excuse.
It's all down to me.
I mean it's so wrong.
Why?
My friend's having a birthday party, and she hasn't invited me.
Who?
you don't deserve that.
Because no told me, because like I've known her for all my life.
Well who's the friend, who is she?
Jenny
Oh, Jenny Claire's 
Claire 
Claire's
Claire 
Oh the other one.
yes,
I met her,
yes I know.
Maybe she just hasn't told you yet.
Is there anybody else sitting here?
Yes 
Both ways, we have to go in front, come on,
Leon, Leon, sorry she's taken.
Who?
Cath Long, she's spoken for.
Who by?
No that big lanky kid.
She always hangs round with him.
That's right
yes
Who?
Who?
Why ?
Because you just said you were gonna?
I said shall I?
Right then yes.
Any, any excuse.
I don't really care.
why, if you don't care, then I'm not going to tell you.
Some boy I told to give my work.
A really bully.
Wow
No nice people 
Well this is interesting this, that that shows the differences very well.
Very clear
At the north of Italy, sixty percent of the co , of the lands north of Italy full exist, so look, what, look.
Come to me, look I'm having trouble.
tried.
you know that?
Country traditions are shown at the diagram, in North Italy erm, there's more land than south  in the diagram.
Sixty percent of the land is in North Italy, and forty percent is in the south.
Population though, sixty one percent live in the North, thirty eight percent live in the south.
People employed in industry which as you know today is er, a, an indication of how a rich a country is.
Twenty seven in the south, thirty nine percent in the north.
How much electricity people use
only
There just might be two  the direction of that , what are we going to do about your hive problems?
Much more in the north, one hundred kilowatts per, per head, and in the north itself is well under , cars, motorcycles, again in the north, much more lot of er, cars, and in the consumption of, of food 
Petrol consumption,
What?
Petrol consumption.
Hubble, bubble, toil and trouble,
again, people consume more food.
Now all those show, all those indications show that the north is much richer.
I'll be able to draw the little picture.
yes, what we need to do is this.
In the middle I want you to draw a picture of each item, and then, the land population , industry, and why  food production, Sam you're not listening.
oh, it's h , hard doing Geography Can we work in pairs?
You're free to draw a picture and diagram and then
Better call, better call  composition.
Mm?
You can, you can design any kind of picture to illustrate the land in whatever  
Well whippy do 
Actually most  is either hills or mountains, if you look actually you can draw a picture of a hill or a mountain, but most, most of the land  er hills or mountains which is very interesting isn't it?
What a stupid mess 
Get up  oh God, my man
he really pigged out this morning.
God, you're right.
You know the lions?
Do it in your head this time.
I couldn't to that.
Why not?
That would be bad wouldn't it.
It would be bad for my fucking head, but  you must be very  in 
They can ask you anything and he'll tell you the truth.
You just ask.
Right who do you fancy?
Are you gay?
Leon.
you're mad
Millie, have you just farted?
No it's the  with the gasket off.
the one I bought just went out  His eyeball went just up and 
I can see that, I can see round your eye, oh, God and I can see from the corner like in your head.
Oh good he looked, he did look 
There you are, good
Oh , oh this is going to be lovely  it's got a magic button 
Here
Yes sir, what do you mean? it's er,
hey I don't think you're right, what have you been drinking? or anything, Lemonade?
What?
Ah, I can't find my 
yes I am, sorry.
I can't smell the good ones.
I didn't know  like this,
M S from M S
for Matthew something, Stevens, who's he?
don't worry.
Shut up,
I did those, I did those, but I just want to  oh, yes sir.
Millie why don't you go up there
Erm, yes, yes Sir.
Millie
Why, is there, is there a law against that Sir?
Is there a law against that?
I would say there was, is there a law against that, no,
My God gentlemen, please shout to fuck off , no erm.
Oh, eight, nine, ten.
I feel sick.
You're looking at anti-log.
Who do you know boy?
I don't know, I came to say to tell him to fuck off.
I'm going to nibble your balls.
Sam, Sam, have you seen the glue please.
Have you seen, do you read the Big Issue?
Yes, we get it all the time.
I bet your mum pays it, give me back that fiver.
No she has to do it, she has to do it instalments.
No, go on.
Yes, we bought it, and there's this thing that says Big Bess let's rip
Oh yes, yes, yes
Cock-sucking, ball nibbling, going down
Yes I know
I don't find that funny, only you 
Blow jobs
And they're saying you still get Aids from these
Yes
people are still human, I mean, people
Kissed after having sex.
I don't know who it is?
Then again he, he, he's the youngest here.
he's suffering, it's bad about laughing at your own jokes that, you don't do that.
Mm, you're just so immature that you're 
Everything that you see you laugh at, you're lucky he always sets you up 
Oh shut up
Oi, you lot, you've got to give us a bit of  because he's the youngest here,
Atchoo, Atchoo.
He's the youngest, definitely.
Erm, he hasn't grown up yet.
Erm.
I mean, how old is he?
You're twelve aren't you?
I am twelve actually.
Damian's twelve.
he's in the first year 
Wankers and Playboy's under his bed, he gave me a  and I goes  
I know his dad 
I go, I, I prefer Penthouse,actually.
Well we'd better do some work you know.
Oh yes.
You're not hanging round the hall.
No, he's run out.
I know.
Can't even keep  for five minutes.
Sorry, I'm sorry.
Start again.
I will, because I've been recording all this.
Have you.
From the bang in the head.
Oh,
yes, Casey there's something I've been wanting to say to you.
Casey.
Casey, here, here, he's popping the question.
You're fucking flaming cow.
You're so bad  beat him up.
I really hate anybody who's being horrible to somebody because it makes me feel bad.
Oh, stuff you bighead.
Oh no, no, no, please, turn round I'm going to do something in that slip.
You've  didn't you?
I could be on drugs, I could be a monk.
I thought I was a , ya.
Silly sod.
Yam-ma, yam-ma, yam-ma, yam-ma, yam-ma, yaa-ma
Oh, don't you start
yam-ma, yam-ma, yam-ma, yam-ma, yam-ma, yaa-ma.
Yam-ma, yam-ma, yam-ma, yam-ma, yam-ma.
chewing gum 
Speak up, erm,
K O then
This is a fight.
Oh, do it again.
Action replay.
Sir, sir could you come here please.
Sir, here now.
Sir we need your help now 
Sir, erm, could you please come here ,Luigieans, what?
Comedians.
Oh, I thought you said Luigieans.
Luigieans, who are they,
Erm, your orgy is a food orgy.
What did you say?
Your type of orgy is a food orgy.
you become anorexic.
Are you a scientist?, did you see This Morning or something?
All these diets make you emaciated.
I saw This Morning when  out.
I'm glad now I missed it.
when she was younger she was just  
You know they're talking about and, the Queen, and the Princess and they're talking about the sh Princess Diana's anorexic.
yes, I'm taking sides.
Bulimic, bulimic.
yes alright, bulimic.
But not any more she's not, well.
Did you know that, you know when Freddie Mercury sang with that really fat woman?
that's a fat young girl 
he didn't go out with her, that's really  I know 
yes, well she hasn't got bulimia because she's fat, has she?
I saw this, I saw this programme , I saw his programme and it said, no, listen, listen, no listen, bulimia's where you eat too much 
No-o-o ooh, ooh,
Shut up
Sorry No, bulimia, where you eat anything, and you puke it up all up,
You eat, and eat and eat, and then you throw it all up.
So you have a bilge, and, you eat loads of cakes and then instead of like you with pizzas down there, they just throw it up 
Yes, as well, binge, binge, not bilge 
Yes, binge, they put it with it to stay skinny 
Bilge, I'm still having a bilge 
Oh, what a sucking  somebody left a bite mark from where they were 
Ah
I was saying this morning, in fact it was on This Morning, or Good Morning, or
Hey, I'm bulimic
Anne and Nick I think
What?
Anne and Nick type problems.
Yes, they were  they were saying about 
Shush, let her talk.
They were saying about  they keep asking her because she could be like page three models in the newspaper, she was like very  even this really  and then she just said I keep on going toilet and she'd, she'd then puke up in the toilet and she'd come back and there were all these bite marks so her parents could see when she was doing it.
Anne and Nick are really shit, Anne and Nick are really shit, la, la, la, la, la 
Oh, what happened?
Oh, nothing, but she, you could see the way she had, her whole hand up from here in, you could see she had bite marks  
you know, she can't get it out, and then she starts to puke over it, and it comes out 
You go,
I'll make you sick.
How do you do it?
I said how did she do it, did she, did Jane ever do it?
What?
I don't know if she did.
Well what's she talking it about it for then?
I don't think Jane's bulimic.
Why was she just talking about it?
We've got to be quiet though, she might be a bit touchy?
Millie, why was she just talking about it?
Because she's saying that she can't make herself sick.
She can't?
No.
Can I borrow a pencil please 
I can't, I hate being sick, I can never make myself sick.
They were taking her tonsils out or something.
I'd get to about there, just about like that, and then I couldn't do it.
I hate throwing 
What I do, water, and they
Yes, I mean it's all.
No, your mouth's supposed to water.
You get all, you get all goo , you get all goose-pimples on the back.
yes, and then I feel really hot and then cold and then I start to feel queer.
yes, Sir, Sir,please could you come here.
I know, I know, I know,and you go, and you're, and you're kind of up, up 
No Owen, that, that's how it doesn't come out, that's what's happened to you.
And nothing comes up about five times, aargh, and I, I'm  and your mother comes round and catches you, aargh 
urgh, and you sick it all up again, I couldn't eat a thing, I couldn't eat anything for two days.
Really.
Sir,
sir, we're trying to 
Sir
I was eating my, I was eating my supper when he started  
Erm, d'you have to do a picture for the north and south of it, or just one overall picture?
I don't understand, I don't understand, I don't understand 
Yes, this one here, it should be one overall, it should be just one overall picture of the item like the land, and this shows the different proportions of land in the north and south.
Of if you want to separate the picture into two, you could draw a picture representing the land in the south and the land in the north.
It's up to you really, how you do it.
I'll just do one picture.
One picture's fine.
One picture of what?
Land?
Yes, just to illustrate.
This is the item,
Yes.
You draw a picture representing the land,
How can you draw a picture representing land?
Just draw a mountain and a river 
Well if you were listening , you see, I said, most land in Italy is mountains and hills, so you could draw some hills and mountains, that'd be really good.
So, Sir, shall I tell you how, you know people  when you talk, or we're not supposed to talk.
Sorry
Is that like on the board, talking, when you're talking it's really rude.
I wish you, you should ask them to read out, read out the O M because then people become more involved in that.
Leon, can I borrow a rubber please?
I'd be asking, I'd be asking er, them to read out all the time  
Can I borrow, can I borrow a rubber
What?
Can I borrow a rubber please?
yes, yes, yes.
There we go.
No a rubber
A rubber, a boring old rubber
Can I borrow a pencil a minute?
I haven't got one myself, I haven't got a pencil 
I haven't got a sharpener.
You lied to me Millie, I don't like 
Oh thank you Sir.
Oh,
But I mean, you're so pleased.
Oh, I'm not.
But if that was me, I always start laughing.
They say   
I would be
I wish
Quite nicely actually
No, I mean if that was my pencil case.
If that was me I'd say ooh,
you silly bitch 
Ha,that's my rubber you're using
There's Millie, look.
You and your rubber, you're never going to use it again.
Don't Owen.
Thank you.
Why you?
Do you have a curly-whirly pencil?
Oh, yes 
Wicked
Who else went 
They're really crap, oh no, put them on the top of your old pencil.
it's like a little mask  look,a little mask.
It's like that mouse, that, that finger mouse.
do you watch that finger mouse?
No I have, I have, I have  well I can do down in fits in someone's hair.
Wow, that's manic
Oh wow, right who shall we say kicked me too?
No don't waste them, no.
Why?
What are you going to use them for then Millie?
Shush.
Kick these and stuff.
I don't, I write with one 
yes, right, who sh , who shall we say kicked me? or punched me?
Yes, and 
No, not Mr.  I've got a describe about 
Who is it?
Mr. McCartney 
So kick me, yes?
No,
Right, er, kick
Fuck me, kick me I need a man.
You can put that on my back, I'm going to 
Kick
Did you see Mr. McCartney's car?
He's got something red 
I know.
Don't  it's my job.
Who's got a green colour pencil ?
Bulimic
Bulimic
You bulimic
Bulimic buffalo
There, who's, who wants to get on somebody?
We're chickens.
, What?
Don't mind me.
right then.
It's packed lunch 
yes, yes
Why do you ask that Millie?
I want an answer.
Yes, I want to ask that, do women's tits suit you?
The fi , the first thing that comes into your mind You're so perverted, you're so perverted 
You're obsessed Owen, you're  to do is women's tits so  
no, God, that, that's all you think about.
Urgh
That's quite good actually, Jo, look, that joke.
I knew, only you knew, you, you, you
You can hardly 
Look I knew you, you, you
You couldn't get away with it.
I still worked it.
Alright, picture one represents some land, how do I draw land?
You do that.
But that's mountains though, not land, isn't it?
It's twin peaks.
Are they twin peaks?
Oh that's lovely that, shame about the picture.
Jane can I borrow the yellow one?
God it's better than mine.
That's impossible.
Oh, that's wicked Sarah.
I know
But the yellow isn't making much difference, so start again.
Right, it's not too late to start to again, I, I'll chuck this piece of paper away for you.
Okay,how do you draw a desert?
They don't have deserts in Italy.
yes, but I mean that's land, that looks, people might think it means mountains, and when they read that, then they read that bit look 
Are those all  that then?
What's going down 
First you're a 
I know, but I mean, how do you just draw flat land?
Who's got the rubber.
I told you before you just do flat land.
Just do grass 
Flat land?
Green, green grass that grows on the  
hello, hello, hello, shut up Leon, you're a silly wanker.
neighbours.
I think it's weird.
That uncle  it's weird, it doesn't go with us, it doesn't go for soap though.
I know  
And the little boy walking round there with a walking stick 
They try to make it more cool that that, then haven't they?.
Yes, more corny more like, but it's really 
There's a new boy in it, and he's well nice 
oh, that, that one that
Yes, I know they just gave me a little walk on part.
What new boy?
In, in, in the beginning, with Mar , he's pictured with Marco and somebody else.
Yes, I know, there's a new person.
He's a new person, he's not actually in the series yet, but he's in the beginning you know.
He's so lovely.
Yes, yes.
They put a picture of them, yes.
Nice
They said well, they asked me and I just couldn't refuse 
That's wicked 
I want to get that.
ooh, yes, I want to get that  ooh, yes, ooh yes.
Are they your colours for that.
yes
That's why I went to get them.
You can either stick these ones 
You were saying  and then you finished in mid-sentence.
Shut-upa-your-face.
Shut-upa-your-face.
Or I bring out my mates.
Have you got pencil.
Fill up your face.
You touch my face, I break your face.
You touch my face, I ring up my mates 
They talk like that in Italy, yam-ma, yam-ma, yam-ma, yaa-ma.
For goodness sake
yam-ma, yam-ma, yam-ma, yam-ma, yaa-ma, ma, ma, ma,
Jason please.
Are you going to put that on someone Kevin,
What?
Put that on somebody's back.
Mama he's cheap.
yes, exactly.
No
yes
It's  isn't it?
Well go on do it then, it isn't as if it's your handwriting.
No, but he, he will know, I mean 
No he won't, he won't.
How do you know?
Okay man, Urgh.
Population means people doesn't it?
yes.
No population means  
It was really funny when Sarah hit that stump 
Yes, is there any more yellow?
I haven't got it.
Oh, I love the river , no, no, I'm not.
You do, let's all be cats.
My name's cat.
Your face is , have you got any yellow anywhere Millie?
You're shits cat 
No, it's over there 
Sorry.
Oi, oi, oi, oi, can I borr , that re , that ye , yellow please?
No sorry.
yellow, Jane can I borrow the yellow?
No
Jane, I hate drawing people.
Arthur,
Lisa might be living at my house.
Why?
College.
Has she been chucked out by her parents this time?her boyfriend 
No her parents don't want her to go.
Oh that's lovely Millie.
Nice colours, that looks like water colours.
Yellow please 
mother, he's just trying to piss you off.
I think she started it by accident.
On purpose?
No he started by purpose the silly 
He's starting it by purpose.
Can I have a yellow please?
You get it straight away, oh God.
Blue please, now.
Go and get it.
I've got it.
Oh, who's got the green?
Everybody dancing 
Can I borrow that yellow after you Millie?
Yes, maybe.
Who's not had them?
Me 
Me 
There's a new zone in the Crystal Maze.
I know, It's not a new zone much.
Oh.
Underg , under water isn't it?
Yes 
Sonic two zone ha.
What are you talking about?
You have to copy everything I do, don't you?
Who, when, where,
yes,I didn't do a river, I can't do my own work.
Who's going to be the crystal palace?
No Millie 
Sorry, what did you say?
It doesn't concern you.
So you have to know everything that's said don't you?
That's why everybody really hates you.
Why  they can all drown, Oh my God, C H is the bottom of Mark's 
Gogh, man, Van Gogh.
It's a right picture,she's done little flowers everywhere 
She's written Jane ninety three on it 
Don't want a big population on it.
It's sick man.
You've really ruined it.
Shut up
Can I borrow the green please?
Can I borrow the green, right now 
Oi, Millie why do you have to shout?
That's the only way I get through to you sometimes.
Oh, that's a masterpiece Leon.
Thank you.
Oh, goodie, goodie.
The population  
You can see him pull the veins off on the way, hey?
Millie you're showing me up with your picture, it's not very good.
Let's see your's.
I wanna see the 
No you don't want to be dead.
can't get 
Okay, okay  monitor, I, I, I
Anyway, let it be.
It's lovely Steve, especially the bit

Okay, I was expecting twelve, but ten out of twelve's not bad, so I'll start.
Good afternoon, welcome to a course which hopefully  system that we have here.
The course is divided into two parts, first of all a part that I shall be conducting, dealing with more professional use of the telephone: that's how you use the telephone, what you say, and how you use it in that way, how you answer the telephone.
And then after that, there is a film called ‘Professional Telephone Behaviour’, and then Alex Ross will come and talk to you about how to use our system.
That's all those wonderful little codes that are on the cards in front of you.
You'll get a chance to try them out.
So you'll all learn how to divert your phones, and camp on to other people's and all sorts of things like that, which are rather jolly, so you'll do that later on.
First of all, I want us to think about how we actually use the telephone, how you talk on the telephone, what you say, and why it's important.
Why do you think it might be important that we think about what we say and how we say it on the telephone? erm There is a gap here for you to respond!
Hopefully, the person who you're speaking to 
Right, yes, anything else?
To sound more professional.
To sound more professional.
Why should we want to sound more professional?
you're working for.
That's right, yes, every time you answer the telephone for an external call, when you pick up the telephone, you are representing Oxford University Press, it doesn't matter who you are, and it doesn't matter where you are, it doesn't matter whether you're in Eynsham, in Walton Street, in Corby, anywhere.
When you pick up that telephone and answer it for an external caller, you've become Oxford University Press and it's important that we create the right impression for our customers, whoever they are.
That we are courteous, efficient, and we are seen to be a caring organisation.
I.e. we want to create the impression that we are good people to do business with, so our customers come back and buy more of our books, so that makes more money for the company, which means they can pay us more money.
All round good idea!
So that's the impression you want to do.
You want to create a good impression every time you pick up the phone to answer it.
What sort of things go into the impression we create on the telephone?
Here is another gap.
What you say, how you say it!
That's right!
What you say and how you say it.
What sort of things will influence the person on the other end of the phone when you say how you say it, what sort of things will go into the impression you create on the telephone?
Whether you're polite or not.
Yes, politeness.
Tone of voice.
Tone of voice, yes.
What else?
Confidence.
Confidence.
Clearness.
What other things?
Think about phone-calls that you've received, from people that you haven't met.
What sort of things about that phone call helped you make up your mind about the person at the other end of the phone.
The introduction.
Anything else?
Okay, all of those things are important when you answer the telephone, and they're things to bear in mind.
It's amazing how much we pick up just from listening to someone on the telephone, and of course when you can't see them, so you haven't got any visual clues as to what they might be like, what you hear becomes all important.
Okay having said that, that all of those things are important when we answer the telephone, and the way in which we answer the telephone, what are the things that you find annoying on the telephone, what annoys you?
Being left to hold on for ages and ages.
Being left to hold on, what just sort of hanging there?
Yes 
The little jingle
and someone cuts you off and you can't get back 
Absolutely, yes.
People being abrupt.
People being abrupt? mhm
People speaking too fast, so you can't .
Speaking too fast, so you have to say, I'm sorry can you repeat that, which makes you feel like an idiot because you didn't pick it up first time, that's awful, yes I know, I know that one!
People don't tell you who they are.
Yes.
That's particularly important in systems like ours, where you can divert your telephone, so even though you're certain that you dialled the right number, you could end up absolutely anywhere, because the number you dialled could be diverted somewhere completely different, so it's very important when you answer the telephone to say who you are.
The other thing that's annoying about that is it then forces you into a completely useless small conversation such as: is that so-and-so? and they say ‘yes’, and you then feel like, they say ‘yes’, as much as to say ‘Well, why didn't you know that anyway’, and then you feel like saying, ‘Well why didn't you say so!’ and you start off on the wrong foot.
Anything else?
When they shout at you!
When they shout at you.
What because they're annoyed?
No, when they speak too loud.
When they speak too loud down the telephone.
Yes, that's true, what so you have to hold the phone away from your ear, and then everybody else in the office can hear the conversation as well as you can.
Yes.
Any other things that you find annoying?
Okay, there was a survey carried out by British Telecom, and they asked some of their customers what were the most frustrating things that can happen to you on the telephone, and this was the answer, and some of the things that you've come up with are here.
Not getting a reply fast enough came top of the list, especially when you know there must be somebody there, so when there's a telephone just ringing and nobody answers it.
‘Encountering an incompetent telephonist, who puts you through to the wrong extension and/or cuts you off, and/or isn't sufficiently clued-up about who's who and where to reach them’.
Now the other side of that was a plea which came from our switchboard supervisor, which I'll come onto in a moment, where she said people will often think that of her telephonist, but in actual fact, it's because they haven't got the right information from people at this end, so there is another side to that story.
‘Being left hanging on without explanation of what's happening’, that's your frustration.
Not knowing who you're talking to and what authority they have to help you.
That's people who don't tell you who they are when they answer the phone.
‘Being called at an inconvenient time by an insensitive caller who assumes that since you've answered the phone it must be convenient to talk’.
erm The other side of that is that people who phone you up and don't say is it convenient to speak.
A lot of people now will call you and say ‘Hello, this is so-and-so, do you have a moment?’ or ‘Is it convenient to speak?’.
Now, I do agree with that, that if you phone up and somebody phones you and they just talk to you and then for about five minutes later, the person at the other end of the phone says, ‘I'm in a meeting’, and you just thought ‘Well, why on earth didn't you say that in the first place?’, so there is another side to that one.
‘Someone jumping to an erroneous conclusion about your needs before you've had a chance to explain yourself’.
There's a very good example of that in the film you'll see, where somebody phones up, and doesn't quite know who they want to speak to, but they get through to a department, and they say, ‘Oh, I've left some money’, and the caller immediately, and the person who's received the call immediately says, ‘Ah, money!, you want the treasurers department, I'll put you through’, and before the chap's had a chance to say, ‘No, no, no, I really want to speak to you, they've gone, and they're back at the switchboard.’
Being forced to answer a series of closed questions that don't adequately allow you to express your real needs.
Again, you'll see a good example of that, where closed questions are good in a situation if you want to get a direct answer to somebody who tends to waffle, but again, if you're asked closed questions and you want to give information, it is harder, it's easier if you ask somebody an open question and on the film, John Cleese comes up with the starters to an open question, which are the Who, What, Which, Why, Where, When questions.
In ‘Someone ringing off, leaving things vague, and you uncertain about what will happen next’, that's where people haven't finished off the call, by summarizing what's happened, and what you've agreed to do as a result of receiving the call.
And finally, one of the frustrations that came out was ‘Being greeted by an answering machine’, instead of a real person.
Some people don't mind answering machines, I must say, I'm beginning to get used to them now, I think the problem is that it sort of wrong-foots you, so you get an answering machine, and think ‘Oh my God’, and you know that in about a few seconds time, when you hear that bleep, you've got to give a concise message which will be intelligible to the person when they replay it, so instead of coming out with sort of babble, you're forced into thinking what the essence of the message is that you want to leave.
And I think that's probably why people find it frustrating.
erm Somebody on this morning's course said that they quite like answering machines, they use them like note pads, and they ring up people they know have got an answering machine so they can just leave a message, they say it's quicker than writing a letter, and it's easier than talking to them for hours, you can just ring them up and leave a message on their answering machine like a sort of note pad, which I hadn't thought of, but I suppose it's rather good, isn't it!
So those are the main frustrations on the phone.
Now, a lot of those frustrations would be alleviated by the fact that our callers go through a switchboard, who will take out a lot of the frustrations by doing some detective work before the call actually gets to you.
And as I said, I spoke to the supervisor, switchboard supervisor, Di Combes, when we were setting up the course, and asked her what sort of things she would like to put across at a course like this which would make the switchboard's job easier.
And she came up with a list which are pleas from the switchboard supervisor.
And there is a hand-out on this on the chairs at the back, if you'd like to help yourself to them before you go.
And I'll just go through them.
The switchboard is open now from 8.30 to 5.30.
Outside of those times, there is a night-line which is on, so any calls that come into the press outside of those times will come through on a special number which will ring and anybody can pick up.
And Alex will show you how to pick up a call, you simply just press a number, and you then pick up whatever call is there.
Now that really does put you directly in the front-line when you're answering the phone, so that call could be for anybody, when you take up a night-line call.
When the switchboard is fully staffed there are two operators plus a telex operator, who also operates the switchboard at peak times.
And peak times are between 9 and 9.30 and 1 and 2.00.
So if you avoid trying to muck the switchboard up if you could between 9 and 9.30 and 1 and 2.00.
When out of the office at meetings or going on holidays, please divert your telephone.
And that's something that Alex will show you how to do, if you haven't yet worked out how to divert your phone.
Once you have diverted your telephone, please check that you have diverted to the correct number.
We have had occasions where people have mis-dialled when they've put on their diversion, and it's gone to somewhere completely different, and the people at the other end cannot understand why they're getting phone calls for somebody who doesn't work in their office.
There are two ways to check that you've diverted.
One is to get somebody to call your number, and check it rings at the number you've diverted to, and the other is to call the switchboard and ask them, because on the switchboard, when they dial your number, up will come the number that it's been diverted to.
So they can check, so please check that you've diverted your number by using one of those methods.
At the moment the switchboard can only take basic messages, because otherwise it becomes too time-consuming.
However, there is an attempt to set up a message desk, where if your phone, at the moment, switchboard will put calls through to you, if you don't answer by a certain number of rings, it will either divert to another number or come back to the switchboard.
Eventually, when it comes back to the switchboard, they will know that you've not answered, and they can say ‘I'm sorry, there's nobody there, would you like to leave a message’, in which case, that call will then be diverted to a particular message desk, where they will just take a very brief message which will be passed onto you.
That's not yet in operation, but we're hoping to set that up.
Now, this might sound silly, but people do do it, when leaving your name for someone to call you back from outside the press, please leave them your full name, that's your surname as well as your first name, and your extension number.
Apparently they have had people calling in saying, ‘please could I speak to Sue’, and that could be anybody, and then the switchboard has to go through the rigmarole of saying, ‘what's it all about, do you know where the person works, can you give me a bit more information’, and it takes up a lot more of their time, so please, if you're leaving a message for somebody to call you back, leave your full name and your extension number.
Switchboard do like to see people.
They do like visitors outside of peak time, so if you get an opportunity, do please go down there and introduce yourselves, so they have a face to put to the name.
And they can talk to you and show you around, so you can have a look and see, at the way the calls come in and how they deal with them.
If your whole departments going out for any reason, for a departmental meeting, if you're all out at a conference, or if there's some sort of briefing or something going on, please let the switchboard know which numbers will be unattended, and how long you'll be out for.
That helps them then deal with a call as soon as it comes into the switchboard.
They can say, ‘I'm sorry there's nobody on that number, but I know they'll be back after such-and-such a time’, which is better for all concerned.
If there is to be a major publicity launch of some kind, or you're going to have, if you've got an advert in some magazine, journal, newspaper or whatever, and you're asking for people to call in, please let the switchboard know who to put the calls through to, and what it's likely to be about.
That makes their job a lot easier, and also a lot quicker.
So as I say, those pleas are all on a hand-out, which you could please take with you when you go.
As I say, there is a film for you to have a look at, we'll have a look at the film now, it's a Video Arts Film called ‘Professional Telephone Behaviour’, and it deals with the correct way to handle calls, as with all Video Arts, there are some rather funny little stories about ways not to deal with calls.
erm And I hope you'll enjoy it and also pick up the lessons.
I'll go through it again once we've seen the film, and ask you to give me the main points that came out of the film.
Let's go through the points that the film made.
What were the points to professional telephone behaviour.
What was the first one?
The verbal handshake
The verbal handshake.
And what did that consist of?
Introduction.
Introduce yourself.
And what else.
Asking the person 
Yes, and then what?
Once you've established who you are and who they are, what should you do then before you continue?
Something that we linked in with the frustrations earlier.
Asking 
Yes.
Right, and what was the second thing?
Being helpful.
Yes, what does that come under.
Getting the message.
Right, and how are you going to be helpful?
When you were getting the message, what did that consist of.
Control of the situation.
Controlling the call by, and how did you do that?
Asking open questions.
That's right, asking open questions.
And than what.
What do you do with messages?
Write them down.
Record and?
Make the right noises.
Pardon?
Make the right noises.
Yes, make the right noises.
Right, record and repeat, so that you make sure you've got the right message.
And then what did you do?
Take action from the call.
Yes, what did that come under?
And how did you do that?
How did you offer your help?
Volunteering information.
Yes, you volunteered information.
And then what did you do?
Tell them what you're going to do.
That's right, say what you're going to do, and then you do it.
Right, okay, so the three areas of professional telephone behaviour were, when you answer the phone you give a verbal handshake, by introducing yourself, finding out who is on the other end of the line, and asking them if it's convenient to talk.
Getting the message, by controlling the call, through asking open questions, and also remembering to ask closed questions if you wanted to control the call, shutting up a chatterbox, as with Mrs Waffle, when she phoned up about her Gloria.
And then, when you've got all the information, record the information, and repeat it, so you make sure you've got all the key parts of the message down.
And finally, to offer help.
To volunteer useful information, so that the caller doesn't have to go through asking you questions.
You volunteer information and then tell them what you're going to do as a result of the call, and do it.
Right.
Those points you'll find again summed up in a hand-out which is at the back on the seats there.
There is a hand-out on professional telephone behaviour, a hand-out on the pleas from the switchboard supervisor, and also a form, a course form, if you could take that with you fill it in and let me have it back sometime.
Right, now Alex will take you through our wonderful system, and show you what it can do.
Just leave the equipment, I'll clear it up later.
Okay, fine.
My name is Alex Ross, I work in Information Systems.
You've probably heard of information systems already.
Are you all new?
Anybody not new?
Oh good.
You probably think it's going to be a bit of a skive this afternoon, but it certainly isn't.
It's designed really to show you how to use the telephone system; how to get the best out of it, so you're not wasting your time, you know, working out what to do.
I don't think, you'd better have cards in front of you.
We only had six here this morning, and I wasn't expecting so many as thirteen.
These are facility code cards, they are cards to show you each facilities codes to use.
Now, can you each have a handset?
If not, move around so you can.
We've got what, six phones, we've got 2,4,6,8,10,12,13 people.
So, it shouldn't be that difficult.
We've got one on her own at the end there, so.
Okay.
Right, the system we have at the O U P, throughout the network, Corby and Eynsham, is a Plessey system.
It's not B T, it used to be B T, erm until about 1984, when we decided that the maintenance that they gave us wasn't good enough, and  got Plessey in.
We think Plessey .
We've also had more facilities to play around with.
The handsets, there are the cream handsets and the grey handsets, there are no differences that are worth noting as far as performance-wise, but the grey handset has, I don't know if you've noticed, a mute button, okay, so that you can have a conversation, and press the mute button, and you cut off the person at the other end.
You can't cut off a conversation merely by putting your hand over the handset, it doesn't work.
I've tried it to my peril a couple of times, and it really does get quite embarrassing, so that's a difference, and of course on the grey handset, there's a pitch control underneath as well as a volume control, okay, so they're a bit more modern, but I don't like these actually, because you can't hug them as easily as the cream ones, they just don't sit on your shoulder.
That's the grey one.
Also on the handset you'll see, there's an R button, a hash button and a star button.
You'll see why in a minute, erm these buttons are on the handset.
Now, everybody knows how to get an outside line, don't they?
Just  nine first and you dial straight through, you don't have to wait for a secondary dialling tone do you?
Does everybody know the difference between an internal and an external ring?
How would you know if it was an internal call for you rather than an external.
That's right, that's right.
Shall we try that?
Can you just ring 3472?
I won't learn everybody's names, because there's so many of you.
3472, and that will of course be internal, alright?
Now an external ring sounds like this.
Okay?
It's like the B T phone at home.
Okay, so that's quite handy to know.
erm Has anybody received a beep in the ear-piece, not knowing what it is?
Did you work out what it was?
I think it was probably a ring, that sort of like went on for about a minute or so,
Oh, that's called a howler, that's a howler, if you leave your handset off the hook for more than a minute, 25 seconds, or is it 60 I can't remember, for a length of time you get the howler.
It just basically says, put your handset back on the rocker.
The beep in the earpiece is when you're on the phone, either to somebody within the press, or outside the press, and another call comes through for you from the switchboard, and you're engaged, obviously, and so they camp onto your extension number, and you receive a beep in the earpiece, now you can speak to these people if you key in R star 1.
You can also get back to your previous caller by keying R star 1, and you can say ‘I'm sorry I'll speak to you later’ to whichever you like.
Yes, so you can alternate between the two.
That will become quite significant when I tell you about call forwarding.
Now, within the press, each extension number has a class of service and a trunk access code.
The class of service determines which facilities you can use, I wouldn't worry about that so much because the system is set up so that most people can use most facilities.
Suffice it to say that Sir Roger's got 31 out of 31 and most people have 8 out of 31, as a trunk access, as a class of service code.
erm The other side, apart from Class of Service, is the Trunk Access, and this is the same principle, erm Sir Roger would have 31 out of 31, so he would have a very high chance of accessing a trunk if he was dialling out.
Whereas normally people would have, in the O U P, U K, which just happens to be 6 out of 31.
So it gives you an idea of the range that's available in the system.
Okay?
Right, now I'll explain some of the facilities on the telephone system.
One of the facilities is call forwarding, and that is available to every extension, regardless of the type of service, okay.
And that's call forwarding.
Right, does anybody know what call forwarding is?
I'm not going to say does anybody not know because we're all new.
Does anybody know what it is?
When you want to pass it to somebody else in the press?
If you're speaking to someone on the phone and you want to forward that phone call to somebody else?
But that's a call transfer isn't it, we'll look at that in a second.
Call forwarding.
What do managers do to their secretaries phones for instance, they have their calls if they're not there.
It's like a divert, but diverts I'd like to think of as separate from call forwarding, I'll explain why in a second.
Call forwarding is completely different.
Call forwarding I need to put on for you, you need to give me a ring on 4444, and ask me to change your call forward, obviously with the other person's erm consent.
erm Let's take mine for example, there are several reasons why my handset won't be answered, erm but for now, let's just look at two.
Which two situations would my handset not be answered?
If you're not there.
If I'm not there, if it's ringing.
If it's engaged.
Engaged, it's busy.
My number is 4444, my boss's 4524, and I could forward to my boss.
She has a forward elsewhere, when you think, you could break these two down even further.
Please stop me if you don't understand, because it's quite a tricky one, in fact it's the most tricky bit.
There are two other ways in which we could break down those two unanswered situations.
How can you break it down even more?
We've already talked about it.
You're busy and what comes through?
Another call.
What kind of call?
An outside call.
Right, so we've got Busy with an internal call coming through, and you're busy and an external call comes through at the same time.
So that's two there, and obviously this one's ringing with an internal and ringing with an external.
It's only got 4 ways.
Now, you might think, great, 4 ways, what'll we do, what are the parameters, well you can have anything you like that's logical.
So on the form there in front of you, you see there are  please delete anything which is inappropriate, so I just assume you want them all unless you say.
Alright, in fact, my handset is just on ringing external, I don't want Hilary to be bothered with any internal calls of mine, I've got a call log if anyone calls me, I know they've called me so I can call them back anyway.
So all I want to do is to forward my external calls which aren't being answered.
That's the most important, and those go to Hilary only.
Alright, can you see why the beep in the ear is so important, just a second ago?
Beep in the ear is so important just a second ago, because if we had this on, busy on the phone, and the next caller comes through, because it was my phone, those calls would go through to Hilary, so I wouldn't get a beep in the ear would I?
I wouldn't get the opportunity to find out who else was calling me at the same time.
If you're really busy on the telephone it's very handy to have this off, on ‘no’, otherwise you won't know.
Is that quite clear.
Any questions?
As I say, divert's completely different.
That is if you like, in the background, I'll put it on for you, you can change it anytime you like and there's no problems, unfortunately you can't do it yourself, yet.
Everybody knows how to call transfer.
Has everybody got an extension?
Not everybody who works in the press has a telephone to their disposal.
Everybody's got one.
Everybody knows how to transfer basically, R plus extension number.
It's very easy isn't it.
erm Let's do the call hold then.
It's on the card again.
I think we'll have two, since so many have turned up.
Could we have 3414 calling 3485, and just hold the conversation, and 3472 calling 3476, and just hold the conversation.
Okay?
Now, what I'm going to do is show you the advantage of putting somebody on hold as opposed to trying to put your hand over the receiver.
Okay, you can put people on hold with the handset down.
Don't hang up yet.
But I would like you two, forgive me for not saying your names, to put the other two on hold by keying R star 9.
Now, do you hear a long beep and a short beep, a long beep and a short beep?
That tone is your successful switching tone, you will get that with most of the facilities that you put on the system, just to let you know that it's worked alright.
So now you can hang up, you can't, okay?
You two can go out.
So basically, you've put them on hold, you're going to have a private conversation, and the call is still held at your handsets.
Right, you've got 75 seconds, after which your handsets will start to ring, with an external ring for some reason, but it's an external ring.
So, I suppose one of them, right, we can make mature, so if you'd like to put your handset by the side of your phone, don't put it down, we'll let that one mature and prove that after 75 seconds we can't lose them, and with the other one, can we just prove that we can go back to the conversation any time we like.
Pick up the phone, key in R star 1, and you should be back talking, but with the other one, we're just going to wait and see what happens after 75 seconds.
Alright, thanks very much.
Somebody's got a howler.
Is that you?
You shouldn't have a howler.
It hasn't worked then.
Shall we try it again quickly, and then leave it.
R star 9, make sure you get the switching tone, no, no, no, well, if you like, yes.
Alright, yes.
So, you're putting her on hold, yes, so you can put your handset down.
Right, if you can leave your handset at the side, you can see that it matures after 75 seconds, brilliant.
erm Call parking, right.
Okay, right, call parking.
This is the most useful facility I have known on the system.
It's very, very under-used, I use it a lot when I receive calls from engineers, elsewhere in the press, and I want to go back to my office but continue the same conversation.
It only works if you realise that your own extension number is going to be vacant at the time, if somebody's using it then it won't work, alright, so if you try and transfer a call, then you must make sure that the extension number you're accessing is free.
Let me show you how it works, basically.
erm This is the central message call parking, call park 1 back to your office.
Let's say you receive a call in your boss' office, on your boss' phone, it's just come through to the wrong one.
But you want to be in your office to answer that, properly, yes?
So you say to the person, you must say to them, I'm going to put you on call park, don't worry about it, don't go away, I won't be a minute or two.
Here you put in R star 6, plus the extension number, and you'll get that successful switching tone, which hopefully all of you will have experienced before we go, the long beep and short beep, like that.
So if you want to see if it's actually worked, alright?
So you can't lose the call in other words.
So you get long beep, short beep, long beep, short beep, that's the successful switching tone, you'll know it's worked, and you go trotting back to your office, you get 75 seconds again, it's like the hold, before it starts to ring, or you can access it by keying in what?
R star 1, R star 1.
So you can either R star 1, or 75 seconds, do you want to do that quickly?
Right, can we have 3434 calling Anthea, so that's 3463.
Right, Anthea's not in her office right now, she's in Eynsham, so it'll take all of 75 seconds to get there, so she'll make do with call parking it anyway.
3476, great, put your handset down, alright, you trundle there, get your coffee, get your , and erm, okay, we've got 75 seconds, we can either let it mature, or we can access, well I suggest we access, because 75 seconds is a long time.
Are you speaking to?
Hello, hello?
That's right, well done.
If it doesn't work, always try R star 1 again, it can't go wrong.
Alright, so that's the ordinary call park.
Alright, it's a bit boring.
Call park 2, exactly the same code, different situation.
How many times have you written messages for people, who've been engaged when you try and transfer a call to them?
And you've gone trundling round, and you've stuck these silly little stickers on their things that always fall off.
And then you get blamed for not passing on the message, when in fact you've done your best.
It really is not very nice is it.
What you can do instead is park the call very like the switchboard, park the call at the desired handset, so take my extension, 4444, I receive a call for Hilary, 4524, I don't know how, it just happens, or perhaps it was, you know, an easy mistake.
What would I normally do, or anybody normally do, I can't see Hilary?
Transfer it.
Transfer it, yes that's right.
So I try R 4524, what would it do?
Engaged.
You try and call park them, they , so you call park R star 6, 4524, then long beep, short beep, long beep, short beep.
Now, here's the crucial bit, what happens after 75 seconds, if Hilary hasn't finished, which is quite likely, because she's on the phone a lot?
Ringing.
That's right, it will ring me back.
Do you see that?
So there is a drawback, in the sense that if you're flitting around here there and everywhere, as I am, I can't readily do that if I know it's engaged and it's on call park, and I go off elsewhere, the call comes back to my handset, there's nobody there, of course eventually, where would it go?
Switchboard, wouldn't it, and that's not very good, because they'd be answering a call twice.
Obviously, I'm just giving you the down-side, if you're going to be there in your office, and you know you're going to be there, you're not going to dash off, or if you are, you can hear your phone ringing, erm it's very, very handy, and in fact it's smoother, because the person phoning in gets to speak to the person they want to speak to, not half a day, half a week later, alright?
And you don't have to write silly .
We'll try that, though, shall we?
Let's have somebody engaged.
erm What about 3485, remember, off the hook.
Alright?
Now, we'll have Anthea, you can call somebody on 2409, okay, and ask to speak to Jo.
Jo, Jo, you want to speak to Jo.
Hello, may I speak to Jo please.
Mary, you must try and transfer it, don't you, because you can't see that Jo's handset's off the hook, we'll assume that we know that, okay, we'll cheat, we'll try and call park it.
Would you mind just holding on please?
Yes, thank you.
Okay, did you get the successful tone?
You didn't?
Right.
Try and stop the howler, that's okay, if you just keep flicking the erm thing, to stop it howling, that's fine.
How are you getting on?
It's stopped working has it?
No it hasn't
Star 6 3485, there you go.
Right, so you have got the successful switching tone.
We've call parked you Anthea, by Jo's phone, so as long as you know that, you won't be too perturbed about the length of time, hopefully, so you put your handset down, and we can either wait 75 seconds, in which case what would happen.
This'd start to ring.
That's right, or, erm actually Jo, can you hear any beeps in your ear now?
You should be able to, occasionally.
It might take a bit longer than.
I think actually, you have to be set up in a conversation first.
Let's leave that for now.
Let's assume that you've finished your conversation, alright.
There is a difference between picking up your receiver and actually being connected.
So, actually finish your conversation, put your handset down, and we'll show you what happens.
Alright, so you can see what happens, somebody's engaged on the phone, and you call park the call to them, and you finish the conversation, and immediately it rings.
So I've shown you the good points and the bad points of it, I think it's well worth using.
May I ask you something?
Yes!
erm What happens if erm your boss isn't on the phone and their boss has transferred all their calls to the other phone, the other phone rings as well as the secretaries ring, so you pick it up on your phone, which is R star star 3, and then you want to get it through to the boss, but when you ring the number it comes through to the other phone.
Course it does.
How do you get it through to the boss?
The only way to, if you've a diverted phone, right, erm we might as well talk about diverts now, since you ask about it.
erm The only way to get through to a diverted phone is to call it through the number it's diverted to.
mhm That's what I meant.
Alright, so, if you're talking on the phone, of course you'd transfer it to the secretary phone, wouldn't you?
Yes, which is in your office.
And then use that one to call the boss, if it was really important.
Yes, okay.
Diverts.
No-one's talking about call forwards, please don't confuse the two.
Alright?
As I said, mine's only on ringing with an external call, isn't it.
So.
Now, if I don't go to this phone, what would that look like, it wouldn't be just dialling, would it, she lied, I'm just trying to compare the two, because they are quite different.
It would be everything, wouldn't it.
There'd be nothing my extension number couldn't receive, unless you've got a very, very high class of service telephone that overrides diverts, you can't get through, it's impossible to get through.
So in that case, I would get 4522, BE BI RE, in fact, busy, you can look at busy, it'll just assume anyway, yes?
In fact these are irrelevant.
It's irrelevant once you've got a divert.
I wanted to do that to show you diverts completely overwrite what is in the semi-permanent background.
You can ask me to put this on for you, change it however many times you like, that's not a problem.
Diverts you do yourself, and take off yourself, and they completely overwrite anything that's written on there.
Okay, yes, and the only way to get through to a diverted number is to call the number it's diverted to.
Let's try that.
It sounds a bit funny, doesn't it.
3485, can you put on a divert to 3472?
It's on the card as well isn't it.
Anyone you like really, but as long as we know which one it is.
It's got a tone.
Is it long tone, short tone, long tone, short tone?
Oh yes.
That's the successful switching tone.
Now you know it's worked.
Okay, now anybody apart from the one, who did you actually divert to by the way?
Anthea right.
Anybody apart from Anthea's phone try and get hold of 3485, and you just, you can't do it.
It's pointless doing it isn't it.
Alright?
It just doesn't work.
That's highlighting, I guess, one of the points Sue made, that it's very important when you answer the telephone in the O U P to say exactly who you are, or which department you work in, or something to do with your identity on the phone, because in the system, you could see that if Anthea now diverted her phone to 3434, you want to call 3485 and you'll get 3434.
So you can't sound surprised at the line, you know, if somebody calls for Fred Bloggs and you haven't got a clue who he is, don't sound surprised, because it's probably this divert train.
Alright?
Now Anthea, you can get 3485, say you're fed up with the diverts, now take it off, which is what usually happens.
Alright?
Camp ons.
Horrible term, probably made by engineering  or something.
There are two sorts of camp on, just like two sorts of call park.
The first is quite boring, and the second is less boring.
Why do we camp on?
Why do we do it?
Because they're engaged.
Right, that is the most common sort of camp on, because say I call Hilary who is engaged, the codes on the card, which is the code for the camp on?
R hash 1 that's right.
So, 4444 and 4424, and I want to call her, but she's engaged.
R hash 1, successful switching tone, replace my handset. 3434 can you call 3414, please.
Sorry, I was going to say 34.
Sorry.
Don't worry.
I forgot to ask you to just take the handset off.
Can you call her again, no just leave it, that's fine, you're in effect engaged, that's right.
Okay, so you've got the engaged everything.
Now the interesting thing about this is, you don't actually put the facility on unless you've found out that the extension is engaged first, if you think about it there would be no point.
So you can put R, as opposed to a call park or a hold or something.
That's it.
Alright, successful?
Now, we're just waiting for 3414 to finish the conversation.
Alright?
And as soon as they've finished the conversation, don't leap to the phone, alright?
I'll show you why, alright?
Now you've got three calls.
If you pick it up, you've got a chance to speak to them.
If we did it again, we won't do it again, but if we did, and you got the ringing, and you ignored it, you've got about 9 seconds to ignore, it just goes away.
Don't think that because it's actually ringing that it's somebody ringing, or whatever.
Does that happen when you're say, your extension rings, and somebody rings and in fact nothing happens .
We'll have to get rid of that noise!
This room's going to be no longer, they're moving everything.
It's part of the redevelopment.
It's a bit of a shame really, because it's quite a nice room.
erm Where was I?
So when you, if someone camps on to you, is that what happens, if I take my desk, there's an unusual amount of ringing and nobody there when I actually pick it up.
Someone's ringing when somebody's camped on to you and they then decide they don't want to call you.
You would be totally unaffected by it, okay, now there is one way that you might think camp ons are quite strange, and that is, if you've got a camp on on, right, and somebody's engaged, but they're engaged for longer than 75 seconds, you get a ring back, but you don't get a successful ring back, you get a ring back of the same long, say 2 and a half seconds, it might ring engaged, okay, if the person's still engaged.
Well, you might think that you have to re-input the camp on, but you don't, the camp on only cancels itself if you choose to ignore it or if it matures.
Can I say something about camp ons?
I had, not here, but at home, a very awful experience of somebody camped on to the electricity board, because the power was off, and I was trying to ring them up, and you can't get through to somebody who's camped on to them.
Alright?
Somebody else can't get through.
So this person thought he was terribly  towards the electricity board, and I needed to get through in an emergency, and you can't.
Well, I don't know anything about star services, what B T call their own services.
They are mirrored, erm they're not sort of based on these internal facilities.
But they are quite similar.
I've no idea how they work, because I've never come across them.
Can you camp on to somebody who's camped on to somebody else?
Certainly, yes, you can phone somebody whilst you're camping on to somebody else as well.
What happens if you get two to three phone 
Well, you shouldn't.
Alright?
What if you camp on to somebody and then their phone becomes free, and this starts ringing, and by the time you've picked it up and answered it, they've made another outgoing call, so they're busy a second time?
There is one way to avoid getting camp ons maturing on the telephone which is .
erm You know, you might be very busy and you don't want people to call in, internally.
So, you finish the conversation, and you just flick the handset, you flick the black button in other words, you don't fully put the handset down, so you flick the black button and you make another call and the camp on doesn't mature, it doesn't seem to mature because it doesn't seem to be long enough for the computer to recognise that the conversation has ended.
Is that what you meant?
No, what I meant, is if saying that if I camped onto that number over there 3414, and if that phone becomes free, this phone starts ringing and I might be doing something, so by the time I've picked it up to make that connection, suppose 3414 is then making another outgoing call, do I have to camp on yet again to 3414?
Yes if it was erm, if it was ringing through, alright, and it's a two seconds ring that you get, okay, you can either get it because the party is engaged, still, alright, in which case it's not successful.
So if it was, you wouldn't know that of course if you'd picked up the phone, would you?
But, if it's ringing because it was successful, i.e. the camp on has matured, and you've chosen not to look at it, then yes you will have to re-input your camp on.
If you don't actually pick up the handset and either get engaged, meaning that the other party's engaged, you won't find out.
So the only logical answer is to put it on anyway, if you're worried, because you can't put two camp ons at the same time, it won't allow you to.
Alright?
Oh I see.
Any probs?
Right.
The other kind of camp on is erm the ‘ring no reply’ camp on.
It's exactly the same code, it works in a slightly different way.
If you're desperately trying to speak to somebody and they're out of the office, I don't know, they're just not there, you can camp on to their handset even though you just get ringing.
So it's not engaged, but you can still camp on to their handset, basically  the computer, tell them when it's next used.
Alright?
Which is why it's a very good idea when you next go into your offices this afternoon, to rock the receiver, like this, because any camp ons put on the wrong extension on the ‘ring no reply’ camp on will be matured, on a first come first served basis, so that's how people get to talk to you.
If, however, you go back into your office and completely ignore your handset then the camp on will be cancelled overnight.
Alright?
So we could try that, if 3473 rings 3476, and don't answer, please, alright?
Okay, did you get the successful switching tone?
Yes.
Right, now we're  aren't we, we're , because the next time that that handset is used, the black button in other words is dislodged, and lodged, by the way, it will send a signal to the computer saying ‘Right, it's your turn to carry out the camp on if you want to, again you've got the choice, you don't have to, nobody has to answer a camp on.
Nobody has to answer a telephone, so, alright.
So it could go on all day, in fact it wouldn't mature would it overnight, because the computer doesn't allow it.
Let's assume that you've come back into your office from the training session, and you go up to your handset and you rock it.
Alright, it's a lot of fun isn't it!
The problem is trying to get people to go into their offices and rock their handsets.
I never remember!
Mind you, I'm lazy anyway, because I record  I receive the calls from anyway, so it's not a problem.
But it's very difficult to say to people, ‘Go back into your offices and rock your handset’, because it's the last thing on your mind, especially after a boring afternoon like this, all you want to do is get in there, do as little as possible and go home!
Right, so, let's talk about diversion.
We've talked about it a bit, didn't we, where is it?connection, how to check whether you've got the right diversion.
How you do that, if you put a diversion on, of course we know it overwrites the call forwarding, how do you know you've got the right diversion to the right extension?
This is very common, this is one of the common problems that Di says to me.
She says, ‘How am I going to get round all these people phoning me up saying, ‘Why am I not getting calls, it's all your fault’, you know, all the rest of it’, when they haven't diverted their telephone to the right extension number.
How do you check?
Yes, that's right, a lot of people don't do that, and it's so simple isn't it.
It's very, very easy.
Remember to un-divert your phones as well, because you'll probably get fed up , or quite like the fact that you're not getting any calls.
And the code is on the cards as well, it's hash hash 9 to un-divert.
Alright?
If you are in a pickle, don't worry about it, because you can always phone Di up on the switchboard, or me, but I'm usually not there.
Di .
So you can phone her and say, ‘I'm terribly sorry, you know, I don't know what I've done, done something silly, can you tell me, is this phone diverted to such and such’, or whatever.
It tells you on the screen, alright, any of the phone calls from the switchboard.
They're very, very helpful.
They don't mind helping you out getting the diverts in the right position, because the last thing they want is to put the calls through to the wrong person.
These system abbreviated numbers, anybody know how to use them?
Hash 6?
Yes.
They're in the telephone book aren't they?
They're published.
We found that we went to go to the telephone system that there were a whole load of numbers not being used.
It's criminal really.
So what we're doing now is, and we'll do again this year, when we publish the telephone directory again, is to send out to divisions any numbers that they want saved on the system.
Eynsham's got them as well, Eynsham's got their own system.
Can you use our Oxford numbers?
Yes.
You can?
Since we went D P N S S.
Yes, Data Packet Networks , I mean it just means that we're talking as if we're one site and not three.
erm So, we've got Eynsham using Oxford numbers, Oxford I don't think can use Eynsham numbers, I could be wrong there, never tried it, never tried Massachusetts or whatever it is.
But there we are.
These have six numbers and they're designed so that everybody in the press, regardless of trunk access can use the numbers described.
Alright?
So obviously managers, who've given some members of their staff trunk access 3, which is very low, which is Oxford, can say to their staff, ‘Right, phone New York, phone Florence, phone this, phone that, and get me a list of all these things’, and they can do it, because the system doesn't look for their code, doesn't look for their limiting trunks, erm trunk access code 40, everybody can use system abbreviated numbers, hash 6.
We want more people to use them, from particular divisions, i.e. if you've got common numbers, you can't really say numbers to the handset adequately, the system has been proved to be , so it's a lot easier to have common numbers and publish them in the telephone directory, so look out for that when next the lists go round to update it, update the telephone directory.
Put forward your suggestions, say, ‘Hey, I want this in, I want this, this'd be great’, instead of dialling all those figures, all you have to do is hash 6 and the number.
Alright.
Incidentally, any of these phones here has got absolutely no trunk access on it, it's got class of service 31, got no trunk access.
To prove it, that obviously the trunk access is overridden, anybody can ring up hash 6 104 is New York isn't it? hash 6 104, somebody try it?
I mean it didn't basically say, go away and don't do that did it?
You can't speak to a computer.
erm Night call pick up.
erm I don't know if anybody's noticed, but before half past 8 in the morning and after half past 5 you get screaming night bells around the press, they're not the blue phones, they're the emergency phones, it's the little square sort of socket-like thing above most of the corridors, and that screaming away tells you that there's an outside caller ringing 56767.
What we've done, is we've set up an answer phone to pick up these calls after 13 seconds, after 13 rings sorry, about 30 seconds, which is quite a long time.
We've had to set it up like that, because sometimes people working late would like to pick up calls, expecting a call, or pick up calls on a different handset,.
To pick up these calls, all you need do, when you hear these screaming bells, anybody can do it, it doesn't have to be within your area, okay.
Any call coming in, call for Sci and Med could be answered by Arts and Reference, I mean it's 56767 numbers, that's all the criteria is.
Pick up the handset, key in 8, you can't do this can you?
You've got night service extensions.
R star 3 and then 24778.
Yes, does that happen quite often, because I've noticed people go home at about half past 4 at Eynsham.
I don't know, there's someone there till half past 5, and the girl on the switchboard is there till quarter past 5.
Oh is there?
Oh, right.
So is that quite adequate, or would you rather have night bells?
I don't think you can have night bells actually, because the system is too small.
I think it works quite well.
Yes, because you've got 4 phones now haven't you on 2477, two downstairs and two up.
Well, that's good if it's working well, it's working well, but here, if you're here, say for a late afternoon meeting or something, and you're wondering what these screaming bells are, they're the night bells, and you can pick them up by picking up your handset and pressing 8 and that is it, and you're through to the outside world.
So it's best not to say, ‘Allo, Alex here!’,
I've done it many times, and they're wondering who they're speaking to, is it the press, or is it some private number they've got instead.
It's very important to try and answer, ‘Oxford University Press’, because otherwise, you know, it's not good form really.
Hopefully, you've got the up-to-date telephone directory beside you and you can transfer it, and we all know how to transfer it.
It's probably not a good idea to try and call park things late at night, because the movements of people are rather different after 5 o'clock, their handsets usually aren't manned.
If I try  what to say to them if you can't get through.
If I can't get to the person they want I try and say to them, ‘Look, can you please ring back’, because if they left a message, that message would have been lying on my desk until the next morning, until I get round to actually phoning that person internally, saying this person rang.
Now, that's okay, I would do that, but it's much better I think to say, ‘Look, I'm sorry they're not there would you like to ring back when the board is open’, because they won't realise you're not switchboard.
There's nothing to tell them that you're not the switchboard.
As long as you're cheerful, people will quite appreciate, especially if they're working quite closely with members of the press, they know the hours of the switchboard, and they know what goes on.
Just because they're outside callers, it doesn't mean to say they don't know what hours .
Right, erm I think that's it, really.
Is there anything you think I haven't explained, please say now.
What is the ‘Do not Disturb’, thing for?
That is for Sir Rogers and people like that.
I mean I tried it once, and it didn't go down too well, even though I was on lunch.
I put a do not disturb on my phone, and Hilary came through, and said ‘What are you doing putting ‘do not disturb’ on your phone for?’,
I said I was at lunch.
‘Oh well, fair enough’, it's not really a good idea.
What happens to it then, does it just  or what?
No, it just rings engaged, I mean you can try it, you can try and get through, but it won't work.
In fact, the switchboard can override it.
There's only a couple on there that you can't use.
One of them is, I don't have 31 trunk access codes on them, if you want to try them, I only have 6. erm Direct extension select, basically I was saying that only very, very top managers and stuff can override diverts, well this is the thing to use.
There's no point in using it.
It'll work here, but not around the press.
Switchboard use it a lot again, to try and get to the bottom of, you know, calls that are going through to the wrong place and things like that.
Save number dialled.
I've had a lot of problems with that, so I basically say don't use it, whether you try or not is basically up to you.
It might work for you, with a lot of people it doesn't, because there's a lot of R keying involved.
Right.
I won't say any more because a lot of it in the back of the telephone manual, on facilities, so it's all explained there.
If you haven't got the telephone manual bit at the back which shows you all these facilities, then let me know and I'll send you one.
It's not been updated, it's about 1983, it's quite outdated.
But if you can forgive the printing bits and things like that, system admin and things like that then it's not too bad.
erm Extension abbreviated dialling, don't use.
It's a strict ‘no, no’, just don't use it, doesn't work properly.
You'll upset a lot of people if you try.
Because people who've been in the press for quite a long time were using this before we took over the telephone system.
Little did we know that G P T didn't actually write the software properly, and what was happening was that people writing new numbers in were knocking out the old numbers, alright?
So I won't say too much about that either.
Everything else you can use.
And the only thing you have to ask me about is the group pick up, which I haven't mentioned have I.
Group pick up, which I'll just mention in a second, and call forwarding.
I need to know about call forwarding, and any conditions you want changing there.
Group pick up is very handy, if you're with a large bunch of people in a large office, you can get together and say, ‘Right, why don't we answer everybody's telephones if they're not there, let's not just leave them ringing’, Okay, so you get together and you ask me and say, ‘Right, this, this, this, this extension’, it could be up to 40 extensions, ‘We all want to be in the same group pick up’, so what happens is the phone rings, but another one rings.
The first person can key in star star 3, the first one ringing will be answered.
The next person to ring star star 3, the next phone ringing will be answered.
The beauty of the system is, group pick up, is that you don't have to know the extension number of the phone ringing, obviously, star star 3, that's it.
Right?
Call pick up, as opposed to group pick up, call pick up, should be on there, is star 3 and the extension number, and as you can imagine, you have to know what the extension number is before you actually access the facility.
You can't say, ‘Oh God, there's a phone over there ringing’, pick up your handset and go star 3, ‘Oh my God, what is it?, 4 something, that'll do.’
Because it won't work, you have to know the exact extension that's ringing.
It works with any phone in the press, but it's quite limited.
It's quite nice to know in an emergency, if there's a phone ringing, say in your boss' boss' office, or, you know, in a colleague's colleague's office, or something like that, that you want to answer, you don't want to let ring and ring and ring, and you know the extension number quite well, then use it.
It'll work on any phone, not just your own.
So that's the difference between group pick up and call pick up.
Group pick up you'll need to ask me about, group pick up with call forwarding.
Anything else?
If you want to get through to the operator, or directory enquiries, is it necessary to go through the operator?
No, directory enquiries is actually on hash 6, it's hash 6 192.
Operator is slightly different, can't do it in other words.
You can get international directory enquiries on hash 6 as well, that's in the book, and I think you can get the international operator.
No you can't, because otherwise you'd be able to call through the operator.
It's just Directory Enquiries, both national and international.
If you want to speak to the operator, then, yes you must phone and ask them to get the operator for you.
I don't know whether they ask you if you've got a reason or not, I don't know.
Does anybody want to know about the cost of telephone calls?
Who pays for it?
No?
Oh, alright then, I want to go home as well!
Is it the same as normal prices, or is there a bit?
Oh, the pricing is very similar, yes, it's not exactly the same because we don't have a meter policy here, that's B T.
We've got an internal call log which works it out for us.
But I was talking about internally.
I S used to pay all the phone bills, and now we've got wise to it.
Now we bill out the divisions, okay, and the divisions bills have to be quite accurate, and obviously we  one or two extension numbers which are new.
erm And basically the divisions pay for their phone bills.
We still pay for the equipment.
I S still pays for the installation and the equipment and, you know, the maintenance of the system as a whole.
It's the calls, the calls are charged to the divisions, at the moment, I mean that's just stage one.
They charge it by each phone or generally.
No, by calls, by calls made on the phone.
what calls are being made 
Oh, yes, oh, yes, I mean that's the purpose of the call log really, to split down to every extension number the calls made.
It's not used very often, actually, it's only used for security purposes really.
Do you record calls?
No, no, we don't record calls no.
Heavens no!
We wouldn't get the chance to listen to it all.
I wouldn't even know what the purpose would be for doing it, really.
No, we don't overhear any conversations.
I don't know what the engineers get up to mind you, but no, I don't think so.
Have you got everything, have you got all your pieces of paper and everything?
Well, thank you very much, this is quite historic really, the last training session in the John Hall room, it's rather sad!

Hello.
This is the last in our series of programmes about computers.
During the last couple of months we've talked about every possible aspect and application; in science, in industry, in commerce and at a home; both of computers and of microprocessors.
Today, and in conclusion, we're going to have a more general look at society of the future and ask question such as‘How different will it be because of these devices?’.
And to help me provide some answers, I have with me Dick Grimsdale, who is Professor and Dean of the School of Engineering and Applied Sciences at the university; Joe Turner, who is a Developmental Psychologist; and Peter Dauber, who is a Physicist and colleague of mine.
Peter, I'd like to start with you.
When we were walking over here this morning, I was suggesting to you that in fact computers, really, were numeric devices — they did arithmetic _ and I'm not sure you actually agreed with me.
Well I felt that although, obviously, computers do do arithmetic and they do it very quickly, to me probably the more important aspects are the fact that one has a visual display on the computer screen which can convey information without numbers in a more rapid way to most people.
Although most people are numerate, I think that they respond quicker to this visual display.
You can put a histogram on the machine, without actually having the numbers there, and this conveys information, I think, visually very rapidly.
And do you think that's really going to be an application, as it were, that will appeal more to the lay person rather than person that uses a computer for business or professionally one way or another?
Well I think to both.
I think both in the lay person, as you say, it will be more immediately obvious what a computer's doing if you have a visual display, but even in the scientific approaches then I think the ability to present graphical information rapidly and change erm the function that you're looking at is also very important and, for instance in the teaching that we do here, then one of the things that we're very keen on is using computes to show graphically sort of functions that you meet in mathematics and physics.
I think we must be careful to be sure that we're talking about a particular group in society in a sense, because you've used words like ‘graphical’ and ‘functions’and so forth and that seems to me to be limiting the section of society that we're talking about — perhaps, what are we talking about, one in ten, one in four, certainly not more than that?
What about the lay person, the man or woman in the street or in the home, will they actually use computers in a graphical sense?
Well I think that we've seen the erm tremendous growth in word processors, and this is erm an area which I feel will develop enormously, and it really would be quite possible for nearly every home to have a word processor within it.
That is a form of typewriter, whereby it's possible to generate a letter and, unlike an ordinary typewriter, if you make a mistake it is very easy to make the corrections because the word processor gives you the opportunity to have a look at the letter on a television screen before it is finally typed on paper.
But will the paper be necessary?
Because what it will be possible to do quite easily is to connect these word processors to the telephone system and transmit erm the letter from one place to the other.
Also, it will be possible to transmit instructions concerning money.
It will be possible to make purchases remotely with the use of these systems.
It's perhaps being talked of rather jocularly that erm the supermarket will be able to present the latest price list on the screen, but that really is quite possible, it could almost happen  almost happen overnight.
It does require, however, a certain amount of erm investment.
Everyone will have to buy one of these machines and erm at the moment we might have to pay perhaps about a hundred pounds, but perhaps later these will become very, very cheap indeed and just will become part of the television set.
Are you looking forward to this age, Jo?
Yes, I mean this is what interests me most, I think, the sheer convenience of it.
I think it will affect working women, or in fact anybody working, both directly and indirectly, and in fact the whole public indirectly, in that that sort of facility, to be able to shop, as it were, at home, will be extremely convenient and so will a facility that reminds you when things are due — a sort of, you know, household secretary really that can keep a check.
I think there is a problem in that, I mean, as you know, at the university now we could actually send our mail, and we do have this facility on certain displays and you just put in mail and you see if there's any waiting for you.
In fact we don't use it.
We haven't even got a system, as far as I understand it, that's compatible, so that it's possible for me to send my reading lists to, for instance, so they can be picked up by the library.
And that is just in one institution.
I think we'll have to think very carefully that our systems are compatible so that one home can send mail to another and that I would like.
This is one of the difficulties, getting everyone to agree on erm standards for transmission and standard formats for erm for letters and erm the like.
I mean if we don't have compatible systems, then it's not going to make a lot of  it will make a difference, but not going to make as much difference, but I think if we do it could  it really could be revolutionary.
I did also say indirectly.
I think the problem here is that others, obviously banks and other industries, will be using computers and there will be a tendency then for people, when things go wrong or when they don't understand, to become further removed from the technology.
Like at the moment where people don't understand television sets, or can't repair them.
There will be a tendency, when everything comes from the computer, you hear it already, ‘oh it was the computer’, and that, I think, we want to try to change as quickly as possible.
It's always the programmer — it's very, very seldom the computer — and if I could just go on for a minute, I feel it's essential that young children, particularly in the primary schools, get used to using hardware and programing, so that they will see the computer as part of their normal lives, like reading and writing and anything else they use.
I wonder whether we are actually going to have that sort of society?
All these things are technically possible now, essentially, but do we actually want these things to happen?
It seems to me that they all have implications so far as people's lives are concerned — their activities, their rewarding work, in a sense.
What will they do, other than sit at home and press buttons and send messages to each other?
What will happen to all the postmen?
What will happen to all the people that perhaps do what we regard a slightly mechanical work, but nevertheless get a rewarding activity out of it.
The acceptance, I think, will be by the general public.
If the general public like the scheme then it will take off.
If they don't, it will never happen.
I think that people will actually decide for themselves.
If the system is good, it's attractive.
If it gives them some real advantages, then it will get used.
I don't think we will get a totally computer-based society by any means.
I don't think the society  I don't think people will want this, but there could be certain things which could be quite convenient.
I find erm the erm money dispensers at a bank very convenient.
There are one or two things like that I think people will find very useful.
Other things people will reject.
I remember a very difficult erm problem I had when I erm was ordering some goods from a mail order firm and I kept on getting letters back after  replies to mine, from the computer, and these letters were totally unconnected with my letter and I found this very very frustrating.
Now this is bad management and it mustn't happen.
If this is the way it is going to go the public will reject it, so it's got to be done in a very humane and very human way.
It's got to be done with a great deal of sensitivity and intelligence if these systems are going to take off.
I mean isn't it really  using a computer is merely a facilitator, like using a car is a simple way of transport, and therefore whether or not it facilitates is nothing to do with the system itself, it's to do with the way in which it's used.
I mean we may not like heavy lorries thundering along, whereas we do like ambulances, and computer use is precisely the same.
I mean the ability to use computers is with us, how we use them is really up to us.
I don't think we could imagine a society without them now.
I mean it's like imagining one without the wheel or something.
Yes, yes, you've triggered off another thought by talking about transport.
Computers and improvements in communication erm can reduce the requirements for transport.
They can reduce the need for computing.
We see many people going from Brighton to London every day and erm one might ask whether that's entirely necessary.
We could see the growth of cottage industries again, with people working either in their homes or close to their homes, with very good communication facilities between them.
That is, I think, another great benefit that could be reaped from these developments.
But on the other hand, we can write to people, we can telephone them, or we can go and see them.
I personally prefer to go to see them, at least the people that I like to see.
Are we not creating the sort of society in which people will be stuck in their little boxes, very remotely from each other, communicating through messages and lacking all personal warmth and communication?
No, I think that erm you'll be relieved of a lot of duties that took a lot of time and this will give you more leisure time to have your personal contacts and sport and other pleasure activities.
I think it could be beneficial in this sense and not, as you say 
It'll give you more space and more time to do these things, yes.
Yes, I was going to say there is one problem.
We've been talking about them as facilitators and the need for compatibility, I think there's also a need for every system to have a back-up of some kind, either of power or maybe a manual back-up, which in fact we were talking about the other evening.
There is nothing more annoying than a computer system that works beautifully, say, in a library, and then one goes in at nine thirty in the morning and you can't get books out because the power has gone off, and if we are sure to go on having a society with industrial disputes, we want a system that is not capable of being completely ruined by one small section of workers deciding not to work on a particular day, and so I think while we're putting them in, while we want to put them in in a way which that is compatible, we also need to think of having a kind of fail-safe system, particularly in the sort of more serious applications such as medicine and transport and so on, whereby we can't be held to ransom by very a small group of people, or indeed by just some technical fault, such as a power failure or something of this kind.
mhm
Because that is the real negative side of it, if it doesn't work.
Do you think women are at a disadvantage so far as this computer age is concerned?
Is it a sexist thing, a computer?
Well, whenever women are at a disadvantage it is usually because somebody has put them there.
It doesn't just happen in nature, and I don't really see why women should be at a disadvantage, unless it follows in the tail of many of the other disadvantages, which are actually made by society and culture, not by biology.
And perhaps very, very lastly, what sort of time scale are we looking for?
Are we looking for the year two thousand, or are we looking for a hundred years later than that, or what?— the sort of age we have been describing in this programme?
I'm thinking of a time scale of about ten years ahead.
Only about ten years?
So if we were sitting round this table in ten years time, we would actually be talking about what was commonplace, not what was coming at some distant and far off point?
Yes, I'm surprised to hear the ten years.
If would have thought we should have had it two years ago, if we'd got moving, but we haven't.
Well that's really quite remarkable.
Thank you very much, Jo, Peter and Dick, and that's all that we have time for today.
Next week is the last programme from the current batch of Ideas in Action, and also happens to be our hundredth programme.
To celebrate the centenary, we shall be having a lighthearted look at the university, and also some of the programmes that we have presented so far — the bits that went right, and some of the bits that went wrong.
We hope that you'll join us next week.
Until then, goodbye.
Today we have two parts to our programme.
First, I shall be continuing our series on computers, and we'll be dealing with microprocessors.
Secondly, I shall be talking with Colin Thompson and John Drury about some of the implications of Vatican Two and the forthcoming visit of the Pope.
First then, continuing our series of programmes on applications of computers, today we're going to look at the so-called microprocessor, and to help me do this I have Doctor Fred Halsall and Doctor Paul Lister, who are engineers and specialists in this particular area.
Fred, what is a microprocessor?
It certainly isn't different from a microcomputer.
It has lots of similar properties to a larger computer, in so much that it has a similar, what is referred to as a central processing unit, and in some instances similar peripheral devices, but if one can imagine that for certain applications where these have been collectively gathered together in erm the ultimate setting on a single integrated circuit, then one has a microcomputer, comprised of a microprocessor, some memory and some appropriate interfacing devices to the outside world.
I'm still not entirely clear what a microprocessor  is.
Is it actually a computer that does things, as opposed to a computer that you do things to?
I suppose, strictly speaking, the term is a truncation of a micro-electronic central processing unit, where the central processing unit is the heart of a computer, the thing that crunches the numbers and so on.
And a microprocessor, therefore, in the traditional meaning of that term is a single chip that performs that function.
The evolution of integrated circuit technology has been such that you've been progressively able to put more and more transistors down on a single integrated circuit, and so a microprocessor has got more and more powerful with the passage of time.
Early microprocessors ten years ago were erm nothing much more than the calculator type of erm performance.
Now we have microprocessor single integrated circuit processing units that are comparable with traditional mainframe computers in their power, but a microprocessor needs memory circuits and I O circuits to form a complete computer.
Yes, I think this is what's tended to happen is people call the system, i.e. the central processing unit — which is really the microprocessor, the memory and the interface circuits — as a microprocessor, when really it should be called a microcomputer.
I think this is generally true, isn't it?
Indeed, yes.
People have wrongly called it a microprocessor, when that really should be restricted to the processing unit itself rather than the complete microcomputer.
To add to the confusion, perhaps, really, I think it's important to distinguish between single chip microcomputers and the sort of microcomputers that erm people imagine have keyboards and screens and things, personal computers, which are often called microcomputers and quite rightly.
They are a rather different animal, as far as the sorts of applications are concerned, from single chip microcomputers — a single integrated circuit that has all the features, including the processor, of a computer that can be made very cheaply and embodied particularly in things like low cost domestic goods.
Yes, I'm glad you mentioned that because all sorts of modern washing machines, for example, claim to have their own built-in computer.
Are they serious?
Is there really a little computer in such a device?
Absolutely, yes.
One of the major application areas of micro-electronic technology is in the use of single chip microcomputers, particularly to replace timing functions in domestic goods.
One of the rather elaborate and erm potentially unreliable components in a washing machine is the controller.
Ask anyone with a washing machine .
It's an electro-mechanical device, with contacts and so on that tend to corrode and all the rest of it, and that sort of thing can be very conveniently replaced by a small microcomputer.
Isn't the problem that you have to replace the whole unit if something goes wrong?
Yes, if one separates the controlling element, i.e. the timing, the sort of electro-mechanical aspect of it from the controlled interfaced circuits, i.e. the motors and the drive electronics that go with that, i.e. one compares the reliability of the  let's assume the single chip microcomputer replacing the electro-mechanical conventional timer, then the reliability is n times better.
You not only get reliability with microcontrollers, single chip microcomputers, but you get potentially a lot more flexibility.
So that in, for example, something like a washing machine, the scope for adding many more different types of programme — temperature programme, water saving erm programmes and so on — is greatly enhanced, without significantly altering the hardware.
Another example of that, in fact, is erm the traditional teleprinter.
Of course in local industry here we're very strong, or were very strong in the traditional electromechanical teleprinter field, and erm they have now moved into microelectronic solutions for such things and indeed, again, they're very strong in local industry here, and they're finding that the flexibility offered by using a microcomputer, not to mention the reliability and so on, is again greatly enhanced by the use the microcomputer rather than traditional movement of keys through bars and so on through to the heads, say, of the device.
Another application that I believe has started, but hasn't got very far yet, is the use of these devices in cars.
Is that something that's going to be more important in the future?
I think so.
There's a tremendous potential for cars, particularly for fuel economy and emission control.
There are already cars available 
mhm 
that use microcomputers to control the erm ignition and fuel injection systems.
Honda have just recently produced a motorbike that erm is microcomputer controlled.
There's also things like head up displays for cars.
Sorry, what do you mean ‘head up’ displays?
Well this is the situation where you would  ideally you don't want to have to look down at a speedometer.
Oh, I see.
I might add, very briefly, I mean this is a spin off of the traditional aircraft situation, where they're being used 
Military aircraft and so on.
military aircraft  as head up displays 
In an aircraft, of course, that's very much the situation where you can't afford to look down ,
Oh, I see.
Particularly if you're flying under radar, along the ground, you haven't really got time to erm avert the eyes from the occasional tree.
Displays of that sort is the future for cars.
There's some very elaborate schemes proposed for reducing the amount of wiring in a car.
The wiring harness traditionally is very, very time consuming 
The wiring harness is quite an expensive item in car and obviously manufacturers of cars are very anxious to reduce the cost as much as possible.
The general idea is that erm you could replace the many wires that feed power to lights, horns and things of that sort by a single wire that just provides power to everything, along which you would send signals which would be decoded by micro-electronic components within the lamp unit to decide whether that should draw power or not draw power, and so you can replace the harness, effectively, with a single thick wire.
Here we're talking, of course, about a number of linked systems, quite a number probably.
mhm
I suppose in the limit you might have ten, twelve, such systems in a car alone.
I've certainly seen it sort of as a viable alternative for larger vehicles, you know, buses and this sort of thing.
I think in some ways that particular example illustrates a characteristic of microcomputer systems in general, and that is that from a technological point of view what we're talking about is an extremely sophisticated approach to the problem, but the objective is very clear; that you come down to perhaps maybe a quarter or an eighth the amount of copper in the wiring harness.
The effect 
Adding the complexity  or letting the complexity be in silicone, which is very inexpensive and readily controlled and so on.
Absolutely.
And if this reduces the cost of several pieces of wire, well you know that's the way to go.
Yes.
Let's just move for a minute or two into wider applications, in industry.
Microprocessors, these are the sort of devices which are used to operate lathes and do all sorts of tooling operations which historically were performed by people in assembly lines.
Is that right?
And presumably there's virtually no end to what these devices can do in a much more reliable way than perhaps human beings can do?
One is maybe getting away slightly from microprocessors or microcomputers.
erm certainly numerically controlled machine tools, they've been with us for a number of years now and there's no doubt about it that micro-electronics is having an influence, or advances in micro-electronics are having a way in which they are implemented, but I feel applications of that type it requires quite a large amount of flexibility in being able to program it to set up one machine, program it differently to set up another machine, say, or to produce one component and another component and so on, so that I think there one is thinking and looking at a more sophisticated type of computer than, say, a simple microcomputer that we've been talking about earlier.
I think there's no doubt in the long term, anything frankly repetitive can be done perhaps automatically be a micro-electronic system.
I think there's certainly a lot of activity concerned with doing some of the rather more creative thing with micro-electronic systems, and the time will come, I'm sure, when quite a lot of the skills that are normally exercised by people will be exercised by machines.
I think the fundamental problem about the micro-electronic revolution is one of recognising that the whole skill base of the workforce is shifting and needs to shift.
Our problem with society is how do we cope with that?
How do we turn the people who would do semi-skilled jobs on machines into people who can programme numerically-controlled machines to perform that job more effectively and with much greater levels of productivity.
I think in general terms, we were having a discussion only the other day, and thinking of possible applications of one form of another of microprocessors, only very generally I might add, but if we thought of an application which would save paying someone's salary on a weekly or monthly basis, then that would be attractive for obvious reasons, you know, that the sort of  when one totals up wages and salaries over a full year then that's a significant saving to be made and therefore it justifies the initial investment cost in whatever the system might be.
So I think inevitably that steps taken to try to reduce manpower as much as one can, unfortunately, and as Paul says I think the problem is trying to  or adapting to the new situation.
Well I'm sure that that's the way that things are going.
I'm not quite sure what's going to happen to all the people that are unemployed because of this, but that I suppose is material for another programme.
I gather you gentlemen have written a book ‘Microprocessor Fundamentals’.
Is this a book that could be read, as it were, by the layman at all , or is it a complicated technical book.
It arose, actually, the book, from a course in fact erm for current practicising engineers that we ran here at Sussex and indeed are still running, and engineers from many walks of life, different sort of areas of interest, have attended and I think found a lot of benefit from attending the course, so suppose it's aim primarily was someone with a background knowledge of engineering in its broadest sense, but 
Probably the ideal candidate for reading our book would be someone who would perhaps be involved in the manufacturer of erm products and, having recognised that washing machines are involved with microprocessors, are anxious to see if they can get any insight into the role that microprocessors can play 
And the design of the product.
Yes, yes.
in similar sorts of products.
But it's written for the non-microprocessor specialist to try to show him the way to erm exploit these things.
Yes, that's true, and also of course biased towards student population as well.
Thank you very much Fred and Paul.
And now for the second part of our programme.
Religion unites or divides, and convictions still run very deep, but in recent years religious differences don't seem to have figured large in British life, except of course in Northern Ireland, and the disputes and controversies associated with the Reformation have largely been forgotten.
Even so, I suspect that the visit of Pope next month wouldn't have been possible even a couple of decades ago.
I recently talked with Colin Thompson and John Drury about the state of religion in Britain today.
I started by asking ‘What sort of religion do the British favour?’.
The kind of religion that people like in this country is to do, I think, with their sense of identity as being British people and following British habits and customs.
The things that work — harvest festivals, Armistice Sunday, pancakes on Shrove Tuesday, all the details about who sits where at weddings and how you do that kind of thing — things which I suppose the more strictly religious people might regard as rather to one side of the central questions.
Does it matter?
Well sometimes I think it does and sometimes I think it doesn't.
It depends what kind of mood I'm in.
John, in terms of theology, are British people interested in theology at all?
I think they can be interested when somebody speaks out in terms that they can understand.
The Bishop of Woolwich, John Robinson, did this some time ago with ‘Honest to God’ and Don Cupitt, I think, is doing it at the moment too with his book ‘Taking Leave of God’.
They can be interested on the central questions, if the central questions are sent in a framework that they do understand, and perhaps it's best when it's done by somebody who is bold, not afraid of being amateurish, not afraid of being controversial, because theology erm is a world that can mean obfuscation.
Harold Wilson taught is that, and I think that was very much an Englishman's view that this is a lot of obfuscation.
But if we can get through that and cut through, I think it does get a lot of interest.
What's been happening in theology in recent years?
It seems to me that lot of it's been dominated by various sort of rather obscure sounding Germans.
Yes, the Germans have always had gigantic and very refined apparatus and have done a vast amount of hard work.
The English have always been a little lighter on their feet, a little more amateurish, but the thing that has been happening, I think, is without a doubt the relativization of religion.
erm that's a clumsy, and perhaps you might say a rather German way of putting it, but seeing religion as one of the things people do, one of the things that we can understand now that we're good at understanding history — we can understand how society works, we can understand that a person is interested in religion for psychological reasons because he is a certain kind of person, comes from a certain kind of family, and so from all sorts of angles religion is being understood and the cost is that it's not such an absolute thing as before.
It's not something, as it were, that dropped out of the sky, that God dropped down.
It's not just that, it's something that people make, like they make cakes or clubs, or anything else, and this is the interesting thing in religion at the moment, the relativization which scares people, of course, who want it to be an absolute authority which they can just debase themselves before.
On the other hand, it certainly makes it more accessible.
It's something you can understand and do and is part of human life.
It sounds to me as if that sort of religion has nothing to do with God.
Is that a sort of follow-up of the God is dead school of theology of about ten or twenty years ago?
No, I don't think so, because I think the God is dead school of theology is well and truly dead.
I think it's a question of understanding and perceiving what the meaning of the concept of God is outside a very narrow churchy kind of view.
I think people in the British churches, and probably outside them, twenty or thirty years ago lived in a rather secure world and they understood that God was on the whole on the side of the British Empire and the missionaries as they went out to civilize other places, and that was true also of the other European forms of God.
These days, as John has said, it's much more broken down than that.
We have to come to terms with the fact that people's experience of God differs enormously and the way they talk about God differs enormously, and in order for us to understand even what we mean we've got to listen to them.
There's a great deal of theological thinking of a very different kind going on outside Europe in the Third World, in Latin America and Africa, in India — the place where we used to think we sent our understanding of God for the heathen to be converted to it, and we're beginning to have to listen to those places and to receive what they have to give us, rather than thinking that it's all settled in our patch of the world.
Is that the so-called liberation theology?
Well liberation theology is one version of it that in certain parts of the world, particularly where there is great economic and political oppression, where people get locked up in prisons for believing and thinking differently, and where there is very real persecution of the poor, and those who erm have different ideas.
The church has had to decide whether it's going to be on the side of the rich, the landowners, the establishment, who are a very small minority, or the poor, and generally speaking over the last fifteen or twenty years in Latin America it's opted to be on the side of the poor and underprivileged, and theology has grown out of that terribly real situation, not something you learn from books, but something you do because you don't have enough food in your belly, you can't provide for your family, the father's been locked up, and that kind of theology, that kind of understanding of God, is really rather alien, I think, still to the kind of concerns most Europeans will have because they don't face those very extreme conditions.
It sounds to me that the sort of the theology that you're describing, Colin, and you described just now, John, is very much a theology in which religion is, as it were, getting out of the churches and into the homes and daily activities and concerns of ordinary people.
Yes, I think it's becoming practical.
People want to know it's cash value, they want to know what it does erm what it's worth in very practical terms.
One event that seems to me to be very important is Vatican Two.
A lot of discussion about religious matters seems to be pegged, to some extent, on what happened at Vatican Two.
Is it as important as I suggest?
Well I can only really, I suppose, talk from the point of view of Britain and Spain, which is the European country I know best.
It seems to me that you get these big moments in the life of the church, as you do in the life of any institution, historically speaking, and it takes a long time for you to discover what the effect of them is going to be.
Like the Council of Trent in the sixteenth century, nobody quite knew what all its decrees meant until they started putting them into practice, and a lot of them, and I suspect a lot of Vatican Twos, need to be interpreted.
You've got, in fact, to work out what their proper significance is, but there's no doubt that it's seen as a kind of turning point, and although it was a Roman Catholic Council, its effect has been marked on all aspects of Christian life in Europe and, well, through the world.
It erm I suppose released a great deal of pressure that seemed to have been building up.
Perhaps erm pressure coming from local communities and ordinary people, rather than theologians at the top, and pressure released in order to allow for greater freedom, variety, flexibility, more open approach to other Christians and other religions, and to try to get rid of some of the obstacles that the past seems to place in our way.
Now, it's not clear to me at the moment that that is going to be the direction, say, of the Roman Catholic Church, because we seem to have a much more conservative Pope and there are conservative movements growing up in all the churches, you've only got to look at Reagan's America and the way you find counterparts to that kind of religious conservatism in all the European countries.
So I think it's a bit of an open question at the moment.
Yes, Vatican Two, has been very significant, but nobody can quite see at the moment which direction it's going to leave us going in.
Historically, religion mattered very much at a national level.
People used to fight each other over religion.
Does this happen in any sense these days, do you think, or is religion supsuned by politics and economics and other facts of life?
I'm afraid it still does happen that there is fanaticism, which is  fanaticism is, as I understand it, self-righteousness with a strong religious dimension, and it does happen and I've spoken of forces that erode it, but they can also exacerbate it, irritate it, into stronger activity, and of course we erm in the United Kingdom don't have to look very far to see that happening, and it is, I think, a very great threat.
Nations have their own particular characteristics.
Britain is 
mhm 
basically by constitution a protestant nation, erm most of Europe is Catholic.
Is this going to, in fact, affect relationships between Britain and Europe in the future?
I wouldn't have thought to any great degree.
One of the  I'm sure one of the results of Britain's closer links with Europe is that there is greater contact between churches speaking different languages across these Catholic/Protestant boundaries.
I erm occasionally meet in this country and abroad the kind of Christian people that suppose it would have been quite difficult for me to have met before Britain came into Europe.
There wouldn't have been those sort of opportunities.
I would have thought that in many ways the divisions which exist in this country and in Europe over religious matters are not largely to do with our past.
They are not to do with whether we're Catholic or Protestant, they're more to do with whether we're open or closed sort of people, whether we are willing to risk new ideas and the challenge of our old ones, or whether we want to scuttle away into our little corners and keep what we've got.
I think those are the sorts of differences I observe and they're not to do with whether I'm a protestant or a Catholic, but what kind of human being I am almost.
Yes, if I can just interject something here which I think is rather striking, when one used to go on holiday on the Continent, going to church was at the same time a bewildering an exciting experience because you couldn't understand what was going on.
Roman Catholic services were in Latin, in somewhere like Brittany there was a very strong local way of doing it.
Likewise in Italy.
Now when one goes, there tends to be a sameness which can be a bit of a let down, that you find much the same kind of thing as you would find in a church in Brighton or Lewes going on in Naples, and I don't know quite how long this will last.
I rather hope that local cuisine, local flavours, will reassert themselves.
This is a minor thing, but in view of what erm Colin was saying about religion and nationality I think it's something that will matter.
It might reassert itself.
Yes, and I do hope that at the same time that we've been talking about how relatively practical religion has become, that we shall remember the mystery which it witnesses to.
That's one of the things, I think, that the Roman Catholics who hanker after the old Latin Mass and its ritual miss the most, and I sympathize with them in the sense that there isn't a great deal of mystery about most of the worship in most of our churches any more, and whilst it's very right and proper for us to be very busy on practical matters, we mustn't forget that there are very mysterious questions about our purpose here, about death and life, which aren't answered simply by doing things and being very busy — in fact, that may be a form of escapism — we need both, and I would hope that there will be room again in Christianity in Europe for worship to become something which speaks to the things I find mysterious, and in that respect I think the interest in spirituality and religious experience, in mysticism, in all those sort of areas about one's personal religious life, and a lot of it not very orthodox or traditional.
I think the interest that people have in those areas show that there is that hunger for a deep personal kind of faith, which they don't usually find when they worship in the churches.
In other words, religion is still very important.
Yes, certainly, because I think that it gives depth to life.
It connects with the depth that we know is there.
Thank you very much, Colin and John.
That's all that we have time for today.
Next week I shall be looking at applications of computers
Hello.
Today in our series on education we shall be talking about the handicapped.
I have with me Eric Huton, who is particularly interested in the problems of children with special educational needs.
Eric let's start by defining our terms.
When you talk about children with special educational needs, do you mean handicapped children?
Well I think the short answer to that, Brian, is yes we do, but it's an interesting time at which to ask that question because there have been recently some changes in the erm statutory provision for the education of what was previously called handicapped children.
The previous act was in nineteen seventy, and indeed it was called ‘The Handicapped Children Act’, but this year, in fact at the end of this year, there was a new act passed ‘The Education Act of Nineteen Eighty One’, which refers to children with special educational needs, so we're really dealing with the same group, but describing them somewhat differently.
And we're talking about children.
That means, presumably, younger than eighteen/nineteen — what?
Yes, well the new act, in fact, extends the previous provisions up to the age of nineteen, and also takes provision back before erm school age.
And when we're talking about handicaps or disabilities, we're talking about people perhaps who are physically disabled and also perhaps mentally disabled 
Well, yes, I think you could say physically, mentally and emotionally.
The Act actually says that we're concerned with children who have learning difficulties, which calls for special education provision, and to be more specific they refer to children who have greater difficulty in learning than the majority of children of that age, or disabilities which prevent or hinder them making use of the educational facilities generally provided.
The Act was passed at the end of last year.
What different is it going to make to education?
Well, quite a number of changes have been introduced and perhaps we can deal with this in turn.
But what I would like to say before we look at those is that the Act was actually based upon a report — the government set up a committee to look into special education several years ago, and this reported about two years ago.
It's known popularly as the Warnock Report.
Mary Warnock was the chairman of the committee.
Perhaps I could take about the philosophy which is behind Warnock?
The notion that you have a group of children that you can categorize, say like partially sighted, or maladjusted, or educationally subnormal, and that they should have a special education, is one that's been increasingly challenged over the years and I think the Warnock Report actually moves considerably away from that notion and says no, we don't want to separate off a particular group because they appear to have a single erm or even a multiple disability, what we want to do is to look at the needs of each individual child and ask what is it about that particular child that makes the achievement of education objectives more difficult than another child.
Now they, in this report, point to the main aims of the education as being understanding of the world around one and also the ability to operate independently, or as independently as possible within that world.
What about assessment?
mhm
It seems to me that this is crucial.
There are some children that obviously have problems.
mhm
And these are clear and obvious to anyone.
Yes.
I have a child who, a number of years ago, we as parents got very worried about him 
mhm 
and sought advice, and we were told in fact that we were unlikely to get this because the headmaster of the particular school which he attended 
mhm 
didn't believe in educational psychologists, inverted commas .
mhm Yes.
This must be a problem, surely?
Yes, indeed it is, and the Act is really very specific on that.
erm I would suggest that anybody who's really erm concerned in the way you were can either approach their local Education Authority and ask them for some kind of information on this.
One of the problems is at this very stage that the act is so new off the statute book that authorities, at the moment, under all the other pressures they're having to meet, are only just beginning to put together their new policies.
Some are further ahead than others, but what will probably be expected of most authorities is some sort of erm perhaps a handbook or certainly some advice to parents about the implications of the new Act.
But in essence what the government say is that erm the parents' rights as far as the, what is now called the statement — each authority must have a statement about children with special needs.
These statements don't simply classify a child as falling into a particular group.
They're more like a profile, and they will specify the kind of disabilities that the child has, the kind of progress that has been made, the kind of barriers that appear to be hindering the child from making progress.
Now parents have a right, now, to see these statements, to see a lot of the records on which the statements are based.
They also have a right to ask for an interview, usually with an educational psychologist who is, in most cases, responsible for advising the local Education Authority advisors on special education about particular children.
erm not only that, but erm whereas in the past it's tended to be at the prerogative of the education people, as it were, the teachers and the heads and the educational psychologists, to make the initial moves in categorization or making a statement, now the parents have a right to ask for an assessment, so perhaps in your case  to your question it would have been yes, you could have in fact have erm initiated the moves.
Also, I should say that erm the District Health Authorities now also have the right to initiate this, and of course they are more likely to be in contact with children who are under erm school age, and so it's going to imply that the different services within the Local Authorities are going to have to work quite closely together on this one and what you should have, by the time a statement is prepared, is a very detailed profile of a particular child and one in which the parent has been consulted and various other people have been consulted.
And I would say that in this respect, too, there is another point in the Act that each child now must be related in some way to what is called a responsible person.
This is mainly because erm there are so many diverse services that might help in the erm general support and education of a special child that integration is necessary and that really one person should be keeping an eye on things, as it were.
And this'll either be the head teacher of a school, or perhaps one of the governors of the school.
So the changes appear to be, from what you are saying, first of all towards integrating children with special needs in the educational system, rather than by separating off perhaps just a very small number, a recognition perhaps that special needs extend on a broader base 
mhm 
than has hitherto been accepted, involving the parents more 
mhm 
in the sense of 
Yes.
bringing them into the picture 
Yes.
giving them rights of approach, as it were 
Yes.
and sharing the problem.
Perhaps we didn't really deal with the integrational question in any detail.
I mean this has been a debating point in special education for a long time.
It is whether children with special needs should attend a special school, and of course the argument from this point of view is that a special school can have staff specially trained to deal with that kind of child, the sort of resources that they need, the protective environment that's necessary for certain disabilities, and of course there are many special schools around — we've got one here in Brighton for the deaf, for instance— there are a number of examples that one can point to.
Now the opposing argument to that is that if you create a special environment during the educational phase of a child's life, then what happens after that for his  I mean how far have you then separated them off from the sort of life that they will have to lead thereafter.
Now of course from the special school point of view they will say well many efforts are made to attempt to bring community life into the school and to have children erm  or give them experiences in the community, so that you provide both a sheltered environment and also the opportunity to learn in the wider community, and this debate is something of a dilemma erm I don't know that any body can give a definite answer to it.
The new act picks up the Warnock comments that really the majority of children can probably be erm accommodated in ordinary schools, but there will always be a need for special schools, and in fact they do mention some proportions.
They say that if you take one in five children, that's twenty per cent of children, that probably eighteen per cent of children with special needs can be dealt with in ordinary schools and that there would still be need for special facilities for the remaining two per cent.
But this what the act says on this particular point — it's interesting to see because it really does come down on the side of integration.
It says that subject to certain conditions, these children shall be educated in an ordinary school, but erm the special conditions are the views of the parents — so once again, parents will be consulted about it.
The second one is that there is proper provision erm available for erm the particular disabilities which the children have within the ordinary school, that the other children in the school also receive proper provision — you can see what's in the mind of the drafters of the bill there, that if you have some children who could potentially be disruptive, then they might in fact make it very difficult to educate children without these special handicaps.
And finally , and this is something of a nebulous point, taking into account the most efficient use of resources.
So what you really have from the government is a set of guidelines, and it will now be up to each Local Education Authority to interpret those guidelines and to make their own provision.
The thing that worries some people is that as it's come at this particular time that some of the things that might have been done five years ago by Local Education Authorities to improve their whole education for children with special needs may now, either through other competing financial pressures, or through inertia or whatever, the whole spirit of Warnock could be lost, and I think it's a thing that, you know, one will have to keep a careful eye on.
It's all very new, Eric,
mhm 
and it's not clear how it's going to be implemented 
mhm 
and I'm sure that there must be listeners who are very interested in this, perhaps as parents, or perhaps being involved in education, is there any book or booklet they can get hold of to learn a bit more about the subject?
Well, yes, there is a very cheap little booklet that the Department of Education and Science erm produced not long after the Warnock Report first came out.
It's actually a summary of the Warnock Report and it's called ‘Meeting Special Educational Needs’.
It costs eighty five p, and you can get it from any of the H M S O — Her Majesty's Stationery Office — or you could order it, I should think, from most bookshops, and that'll give you a pretty good overview of what Warnock is trying to do, and then, of course if anybody's interested enough in comparing that with the Act, you'll see the kind of things that were in the Warnock Report haven't actually come through in the act.
Well, thank you very much, Eric.
I'm afraid that's all that we've got time for today.
Next week I shall be talking with Paul Yates about education and ethnic minorities.
Until then, goodbye.
The East Sussex region is interesting because it has a very high retired population and it also has quite a long of young people, particularly in the Brighton area, and a relatively small workforce, rather low in industry, certainly in the primary industries, erm service occupations are perhaps almost the mainstay of the local populace — now how would an area such as that rate in your chart as to needs?
I think this illustrates in a very nice way what has recently been described as a new erm family circle.
You see we used to think of the generations of man twenty five year intervals three, we really ought to be thinking of four.
We've got children into young adulthood,depends ; we've got the young mature; we've got the old mature; we've got the elderly.
Now one of the problems is that they no longer perhaps group together in self-supportive units.
They're living independent parallel lives, as it were, and you need to take into account housing erm and I imagine that this is a  if you take the elderly, for example , one major concern is the number of old people, particularly widowed women who live alone — increasingly can't cope, they go into care, private nursing homes if they've got the wherewithal, geriatric hospitals.
Some of them are capable, if they live in sheltered accommodation or with a family, of looking after themselves.
I think we need to get back to this kind of supportive system — that's one sort of problem.
I think the second sort of problem, that you referred to, you have these quite sharp contrasts between the sort of Gatwick erm Crawley area spreading out, where you've got a young population erm and the coast, where you've got an ageing population — how does the county allocate its resources and how does it above all, having built schools in Gatwick in Crawley, then convert them to teenage centres and so on.
It's flexibility, as well as actual provision of services, that seems to me to be a major problem.
But do you feel it ought to be a free market erm situation, at least to the extent that anyone can move into any area they wish to provided they could find a place to live?
erm I think the housing market is one thing.
I think that the services that go with it are quite another.
For example, many parts of the country, the South West, to some extent this area, are now finding that the benefits that they had to the rates system of people moving in after retirement after ten, fifteen, twenty years before disadvantages erm people need special hospital treatment, people need special types of accommodation and erm these are not the things that will be provided, as one of my speakers talking about hospital services said, by the private sector.
It's the expensive side of medicine, you see, that the public will pick up the bill for, so you've got to try and have a balance between these things.
And I think this is behind  I made some adverse comment about the Prime Minister's comment about the burden of the old — to be fair, I think one of the problems she probably had in mind was the fact not of the immediate peak of elderly people, but the peak in the twenty/twenties where the full impact of the erm pension scheme that we've got will hit with a considerably older population — can we afford it?
My view is that we've got forty years to think about it and we can surely think ahead.
You are a geographer, and you're talking in planning terms.
You're talking about all sorts of geography that I didn't study at school.
Is that the way that modern geography is going?
Yes, indeed, we like to think of geography which is a subject which is concerned with environmental problems in their widest sense, with the problems of society, how people live and work, have their leisure and recreation and we're concerned with our own country, we're concerned with distant parts of the world.
Those are the traditional things that geographers are concerned with.
I think that the skills and interest we develop in our young graduates these days are very much wider ranging and they're reflected into the great variety of jobs into which you go, and erm frequently in talking to young people about geography I'm at pains to say well we're really rather a useless subject, but we do give insights into a lot of sorts of problems and erm these lead in many directions.
And do you think that the planners in this country take the geography of the country sufficiently seriously?
Oh yes indeed.
I think so for two reasons, because erm what was it that one planner said, that planning is the art of which geography is the science.
That's probably overstating it, but certainly in its regional and local aspects we do deal with many environmental problems the geographers are familiar with.
We deal with allocation erm, spatial allocation of resources, which geographers are interested in, and of course we have erm particularly in the nineteen sixties and seventies, when planners were being very actively recruited, we erm did see a great many geographers go into planning, both at national level and, indeed, also in local offices, so you'll find many geographers there.
And do you think that geographers can make a unique contribution to the planning?
I don't like to speak of uniqueness and if you think of what they do erm many of them will be concerned in the research side.
erm planning is a team exercise, they have their own input to make.
Development planning in the third world is a team exercise.
Nobody has the monopoly of wisdom and it's important, it seems to me, that you have economists keeping an eye on the economics of the situation, sociologists looking after the cultural and individual choice sides, psychologists, people's appraisal of their environment, geographers saying this sort of development is more appropriate there because of environmental conditions than there, and so on.
Hello.
Last week we were talking about food and fuel in third world countries.
To a great extent shortages are caused by population expansion and in the nineteen sixties the example everyone quoted was China.
China was expanding at such a rate that some experts were predicting that by the year two thousand the world would be dominated by Chinese people, both numerically and in their demand for resources.
Professor Dick Laughton is a geographer from Liverpool, who's made a special study of the relationship between people and planning.
He had this to say about China today.
If we take a dramatic example, erm that of China, here is a country which has managed to develop along a particular line.
Quite restrictive, but having gone through a phase of ambivalence about what population they could accommodate, one view was that there was no real problem, another view in the fifties it should be cut back.
Since Mao they've definitely taken the view that they should stabilize their population numbers as soon as possible, and they now have the most restrictive policies in relation to families, deferral of marriage, penalties for those couples that in the towns have more than one child erm and this is leading to a dramatic reduction in crude birthrate.
But of course the children that were born yesterday, fifteen years ago, are already there as the parents for tomorrow, so their population will continue to grow in very large numbers, but will begin to tail off.
And in a way, what they then have to be prepared for is people who are living into adult life because health for children is better — and this is true of many parts of the world, not only Latin America, but also Africa — and you're going to have to find more jobs.
On a global scale the estimate is that between now and the end of the century — this is international labour organization — one thousand eight hundred million new jobs, as against a present world population of four and a half million.
This is tremendous.
And that is a very large increase in the number of jobs.
A very large increase, and of course some of them are living longer — instead of three or four per cent over what we call retirement age there will be perhaps six, as now in China, there may be eight, into the next century ten.
It will age.
So they have some of the same kind of problems that we have, but in a rather different form.
What I'm trying to say is that it's providing for people already here that I think should be a major item of population policy, and doing it not in a massive world sense, or even a country, but in particular areas as well.
So we ought to concentrate on what's happening in Britain, and to some extent ignore what's going on in the rest of the world?
I wouldn't say that.
I think that erm we have a great role to play in international agencies, in people going out to the developing world to teach through education, to perhaps change attitudes in rural development where, as we know, greater prosperity tends to influence people to have fewer children, and since many of the reasons for having large families is to ensure survival, so that the agricultural plot is taken over, the family continues to work, the active group can field the older group, there is less need for that now.
quick to see this point.
A much greater chance of survival, largely due to better medical care?
Indeed yes, the medical revolution.
And therefore the problems change from survival to that of occupation activity and so on?
Yes.
I wouldn't underestimate the problems of famine, but this is largely a question of mild distribution, and I think we're learning to cope with it better than fifty years ago.
Before we start talking about Britain in some detail, erm just to conclude talking about the world as a whole, do estimates suggest that the world population may stabilize at a particular level at some point in the future?
This is practically impossible to predict.
In the past, the main method of predicting population has been to extend the present curve.
You take birthrate, you take death rate, you take the structure of the population, you try to estimate how many parents there will be tomorrow and push them forward.
Now there is a much greater tendency to say if we were able to reduce family size to replacement level, zero population growth, for the developing world about two and a half children per family, by the year two thousand what would the situation look like?
Two thousand and twenty five, two thousand and fifty, where would things begin to stabilize?
And the main projections that have been work out by erm population council, United Nations and people like this, suggest a series of alternatives, which I referred to earlier.
This is the range of possibilities.
Let's have a look at erm the United Kingdom how.
What's happening to the population in this country?
Well, it's been a story of ups and downs.
erm if you go back to the nineteen thirties, for example, depression, love on the dole, deferral of marriage, potential husbands killed in the first World War, low birthrate, small families, below the level that would replace the population in future, and many of the Wartime and late War reports erm the Royal Commission on population, which reported in forty nine, suggested that population may stagnate, round about forty million plus, even decline to about thirty million.
But of course all that has changed for three reasons.
erm first of all we have had a post-War baby boom, a small one, and then a big one in the late fifties to the late seventies, peaking in nineteen sixty four, when in nineteen sixty four — I forget the figure — about nine hundred and sixty thousand babies were born in Great Britain.
The second reason is immigration, where we gained on balance about half a million people and they of course were mostly young, they had their families here, so that they gave the impression of having very high birthrates.
We've subsequently discovered that this is by no means necessarily true.
West Indian families, for example, now in the seventies and early eighties are probably smaller than the equivalent British families — Indian and Pakistani a bit bigger.
So their numbers will continue to grow as a new element in the population.
Now of course we have on balance a loss of migration again.
The third reason is people are living longer, so we'll have more older people.
But of course since that boom in the sixties we've had the seventies' economic depression, uncertainty about the future, the problem of the bomb, changed family attitudes, better contraception erm a great drop, and in fact a population  a birth fall rather, of something like a third between nineteen sixty four and nineteen sixty seven.
A dramatic fall in numbers.
What's the population in Britain at the moment?
In the United Kingdom about fifty six million, in Britain fifty four and a half.
And how do you expect this to change by the end of the century?
To grow slowly.
most estimates, but it depends on your point of departure.
But most of the population forecasts from the Office of Population Censuses and Surveys suggests probably going to about fifty eight million by the early twenty-first century or the turn of the century, but the structure will be different.
There will be fewer young people, many more of working age.
In the short term, up to nineteen eighty six, more of retirement age.
In the medium term, more over seventy fives, the elderly — or shall we call them old, no the elderly — erm and when the people of course were born in or around nineteen sixty four are sixty in the twenty twenties and twenty thirties, a lot of older people again.
And what about the distribution of people within England, for example?
Well this of course erm depends on two factors.
It depends on the local growth rate, which is partly a function of family size, but one of the great features has been that the high fertility areas, with the exception perhaps of Northern Ireland, which is a rather special case, these tended to have become closer together.
The birthrates of Liverpool, with its big Catholic tradition, are much closer to those of the South East than they were twenty years ago.
erm the second factor, of course, is migration, and we know that there are lot of people still moving away from areas of relative decline, they're moving into the countryside, parts of Wales, Scotland.
They're retiring to various parts of the country, down here onto the Sussex coast and on the whole coast into the South West — to the pleasant places if they can afford to do it, and they're leaving the inner city and leaving behind there a lot of young families, often single parent families and older people, and of course the kind of provision you have to make, the Social Services, the needs of these communities differ quite widely.
And it's my view, you see, that this ought to be more central to our planning and thinking about these things in allocating erm what are admittedly scarce resources.
So you think that resources ought to be allocated on the basis of need of particularly populations, and an analysis of the spread of  within the age groups, rather than on just on a sort of so much per head  uniform way.
I would like to see national attitudes in relation to the proper and careful use of public resources brought more closely in relationship to local need.
I think the classic example of this is the rate and the rate support system and all the sort of public services — care of the elderly, schools for the young — would come from this.
It's a bit hard, it seems to me, where you have areas with a favourable population structure erm who are not willing to back up those with an unfavourable, with a lot of elderly people who perhaps need greater aid.
The problem is, of course, that we  the irony is that we are now in a period where we have a much bigger potential workforce who we are not employing as we might.
You say as we might, what is the opportunities of employing the workforce?
Well we merge here on difficult ground, and I'm not erm competent.
The points I'm making, I should add, are not particularly political points, erm I get a little worried when I hear the sharp division between productive and unproductive occupations.
I've long been unproductive.
I'm an academic, but I take the view that it's probably better to let the peak birthrate come into universities and higher education in nineteen eighty two and nineteen eighty three, rather than to cut back on universities.
If they don't get in, they may find work, they may not.
There is probably as big, almost a call on the goal as they are in higher education.
This is just one example.
erm a second example — let me give an illustration from Liverpool.
We've had a lot of inner area money.
We've cleaned up a lot of parts of our city.
We've laid out some quite attractive open spaces.
That comes from outside funding from central government.
The inner cities have a problem — we say it's a good thing.
If the local authority wants to pay one man to keep one of those areas clean and tidy, it's a sin.
It's extravagant Local Authority expenditure.
Now I'm putting it very simplistically and very starkly, but it does seem to me that we need to get a better balance about how we look at these things and to realize that if we've got an efficient industry we will have a declining industrial workforce, what are the rest going to do?
They're going to work in leisure industries, in caring services, in education, all those things that go with what we think as a good life, and indeed, coming back to the third world, that's the very kind of thing that we need in African villages and India — agriculturalists, erm teachers, health workers and so on.
How do you regulate population in a democratic society?
To a certain extent there's an attempt in East Sussex to regulate, in terms of their county plan, people by linking it to housing, on the basis that if you don't build the houses people can't migrate into area.
Well you can, of course, regulate population if you live in a totally command economy.
If you plan everything, and you provide a bit of this and bit of that, and you help the people to go with it.
That, I think, is not, and would never be, acceptable in this country.
So that erm you then have the problem of whether you respond to pressure on land for housing erm through the private sector.
You can do it to some extent through the public sector, but one of the worrying things I find about the present situation with this growth of generations, the clamp down on building — less than a hundred thousand houses, I think, completed in the U K last year — my estimate is that we should be building about two hundred and fifty thousand.
What do you do, for example, with the situation in Hove, where the houses are built for one kind of clientele — big houses, servants — divide them up into flats?
Do they go to the people that need them, or the people that can afford to pay Hove prices that come down from London?
So you've got these problems of balance, and it may be that in these situations Local Authorities have got to take a higher role in providing for their own people, as it were.
They are very complex problems and I don't pretend I've got the answers.
erm I think we ought to be aware of the implications of what is happening to our population locally, regionally, nationally, globally.
And lastly, are you an optimist or a pessimist so far as the future's concerned?
I think I've always been an optimist.
Thank you very much Professor Dick Laughton.
Next week, Peter Simpson will be talking about education and chemistry _ what is happening in schools and universities today.
Professor Teething-Smith is the Director of the Office of Health Economics at London.
I suppose, Professor Smith, that medicine's been around just about as long as people have been around?
Yes, that's right.
It's only recently that they've been doing more good than harm and it's therefore ironic that people have tended to give so much publicity in the last twenty or thirty years to the things that have gone wrong, to the disasters which sometimes do happen with medicines, because really medicines now, as compared with thirty or forty years ago, are doing a tremendous amount of good.
What about the safeguards concerning medicine?
What about people's worries that medicine may actually do them harm?
Well looking at it carefully, as I have done, it's surprising that if you take the whole of the last forty years and look across the world there are really only about eight major what you can call disasters — I call the calamities, because they are not really disasters — that have occurred with medicines.
And these are things like thalidomide, that of course everybody knows about, and of course, tragic and terrible as it was, the fact is that it affected just four hundred and fifty children.
Even that is a higher number than with most of the other so-called disasters.
There was one in America, for example, where a hundred people died because a sulphalidomide preparation was wrongly formulated, erm and the biggest disaster that has happened in this country was in fact with asthma aerosols, where they were misused.
They weren't inherently toxic or dangerous, but they were misused, and instead of calling for an ambulance people would have another squirt of the inhaler down their throat and the result was that they unfortunately died.
There was a peak of deaths, which you can see quite clearly, which occurred during this period.
And that misuse of the aerosol sprays is probably responsible for about three thousand five hundred deaths, but I think you've got to put that into perspective, first of all against the six thousand people who are killed on the roads every year in Britain, and you've also got to set it against our estimate that there are more than a quarter of a million people alive today who would have died in childhood if it hadn't been specifically for the advantage of being able to take medicines, anti-biotics generally in their childhood to keep them alive.
They would be dead today and they are walking around.
So if we can look at the relatively small numbers, albeit, I mean, tragic numbers of people who have been harmed or died, we do have to set it into perspective against risks in other walks of life and against the enormous benefits that medicines have done.
You mentioned one or two of the calamities; in fact, you mentioned that there are probably eight calamities in recent fairly recent time.
Are any of these calamities which need not have occurred, or where they all acts which were very unfortunate but occurred with basically goodwill all round as it were?
Well the interesting thing which is happening is that we're getting better at preventing these things happening.
I couldn't swear that a thalidomide sort of accident will never happen again, but the chance of it happening are much less.
Now this is really because of better science, and again a lot of people say well we've got government regulations, which will make medicines much safer.
Now government regulations help — they stop cheap, bad medicines being imported from abroad — but really, as far as the improvement of safety is concerned, it's more with the pharmaceutical manufacturers doing more thorough tests on the medicines, taking more care.
It now takes about twelve years from the development of a new chemical to the marketing of it as a medicine, so that twelve years is used in testing it — first of all on animals and then on human volunteers and finally on patients.
So there's this enormously long testing period now takes place and that cuts down the risk of their being disasters or catastrophes.
In this controlled clinical trial, presumably it is important to test drugs on patients themselves and presumably the important feature, as you mentioned, is that they are volunteers, rather than people who are buying it, the medicines, in good faith with the expectation they've already been tested?
That's right.
Nowadays if you're testing a medicine you have to tell the patient.
The doctor has to be perfectly frank with the patient and say this is a new medicine — I'm trying it — erm I think it will do you good, but we can't be sure until we've tested it.
So nobody gets used as guinea pig without knowing it, that certainly is true.
But the other thing, which is even more important, is the need to follow up medicines after they have been marketed, because generally speaking the disasters which have occurred erm have occurred once the medicine has been in use and they are terribly rare things.
We're talking about a risk of, for example, one in ten thousand people.
Now you can't possibly test a medicine on ten thousand people before you start to sell it, so that sort of risk, as rare a risk as that, will only be picked up when the medicine has actually been in use and on the market and been properly prescribed for some years, and what we are doing now, and what is particularly interesting, is to start to use computers to pick up these adverse reactions so that we know much more quickly in future if a medicine is doing any harm and we can either stop prescribing it for the people who are going to suffer from it, and that's the most likely thing, or else take it off the market altogether if it's  if we don't  if we can't pick out the people who might be at risk.
I suppose it is the long term effects which need this particularly study.
I'm thinking, for example, it's not a medicine as such, but I'm thinking of the birth control pill, which presumably has a possible effect in its particular form over a period perhaps twenty years, rather than five years, on a person.
That's right.
And the birth control pill is an interesting example because it brings out the controversy and misunderstanding which there can be, because for many many years there was a great deal of talk about the risks from the birth control pill.
Now two things have happened — one is that better, safer pills have been introduced, but secondly a lot of the scares which there were of five or ten years ago, have been shown to be quite unjustified, so we now know that using the more modern of the oral contraceptives erm there's really very little risk indeed.
So this is an example of both scaremongering having been laid to rest and also modern scientific technology having produced safer medicines.
You mentioned that there is follow up testing taking place.
What form does this take?
This is simply watching the patient who has been given the medicines.
Now at the moment every doctor has in his desk a supply of what I call yellow cards, obviously because they're yellow, which he's asked to fill in if he thinks that a medicine which he has prescribed may have caused some nasty effect, for example to give the patient headaches, or to make them giddy, or to make them sick, or perhaps even something more serious than that.
If the doctor suspects that the medicine has caused an affect like that, he's asked to fill in a card and to send it in.
Now one of the problems is that doctors are rather reluctant to do that because it's very difficult for them to be sure that a particular headache or a particular skin rash has been caused by one of the medicines which the patient was taking, so the doctors are not very good at filling in the yellow cards and these are not a very good way of reporting adverse reactions, and to get over that we are starting now to use computers.
We're giving two and a half thousand doctors computers on their desk, where they can tap in to the computer anything which happens to the patient which they suspect might be related to the medicine and also put in to the computer, of course, the medicines which the patient is taking, so that these records, covering about five million patients altogether, will be all centrally brought together in order to give very early warning of any harm which medicines are doing, so that's a very important development.
And you in the Office of Health Economics handle this information?
No, no, erm this is being done at the University of Surrey.
We're only watching this with interest, we're not directly involved ourselves.
Thinking a little bit more about medicines, there are still some very old fashioned medicines around the place.
I think I can still go to the chemist and buy a bottle of Kaolin and Morphia.
Now is that really a very wise thing to do?
Is it something hanging over from the past?
Well there are two schools of thought.
One is, of course, that an old and tried medicine which has been on use for perhaps a hundred/a hundred and fifty/two hundred years is really a very safe medicine and you won't come to much harm by buying it and taking it.
erm the other view, of course, is that medicine should have become much more scientific and that these almost old wives remedies should have been disgraced and discontinued.
I think that both points of view have some truth in them.
I think there is a case for old medicines, but I think that doctors are sometimes too conservative and the public are sometimes too conservative getting advice from their mother-in-law or from granny erm and going and buying a granny's remedy, whereas in fact there's something modern available which would be much more effective and perhaps much safer.
Do you that think we use to much medicine too often these days?
Well I think again there's two answers to it.
I mean sometimes medicines are certainly prescribed and bought when they aren't needed.
On the other hand, there's — setting off against that — there's also evidence that doctors are sometimes too reluctant to use medicines, often because they aren't familiar with them.
You need an awful lot of persuading to get doctors to start to use a new medicine and a classic example was of the treatment of depression, where the pharmaceutical manufacturers started to produce tablets which were very effective in stopping depression, not just feeling a bit blue but actual serious clinical depression where the person's sat in the corner and stared at the wall and did nothing — I mean really serious depression — doctors took a long time to realize that there was an effective treatment for that and to start to prescribe it, and in fact actually doctors in Britain are rather good in that we prescribe many more effective treatments for depression, we diagnose it more often, and this  we believe in our office that this is one of the reasons why the suicide rate has gone down in Britain quite dramatically in the last few years, because depression, which is obviously one of the main causes of suicide, is being effectively treated.
But, as I say, doctors are slow to start using that so that, whereas sometimes they are overenthusiastic and use too many medicines, at other times they are too slow and too reluctant to start to use new innovations.
It seems to me that there ought to be to edges to a campaign to make medicines safer.
One comes from perhaps the pharmaceutical and the medical profession side, and it seems to me the other side is really the public side.
So many of us keep so many medicines on our shelves for donkeys years in the hope that we might find a pill that will suit us at some time.
Surely this in itself must be dangerous?
Yes, I think that everybody recognizes that you should use the medicine that the doctor prescribes in the way he prescribes it and when you've finished the treatment you should put it down the lavatory or get rid of it in some other safe way, but not keep it so that you can try it yourself again a bit later on and perhaps get confused and when you've got boils on your neck take something which was meant for ingrowing toe nails or something like that.
You shouldn't keep old remnants of medicines in the medicine cupboard.
And finally, Professor Smith, are you happy with the controls which exist these days about medicines and their use and prescriptions?
Well they're getting stricter all the time and the big danger is, of course, that the restrictions are too strict.
You stop the discovery of new medicines and treatments for heart disease, for cancer, for things like multiple sclerosis and Parkinson's Diseases — the diseases for which we don't yet have treatments — that you slow down progress too much if you get too many restrictions.
I think the balance is pretty good at the moment, but restrictions are getting tighter all the time.
Professor Smith, thank you very much.

Yes, hello, good evening, welcome to Talking Sport, and tonight's headlines: Oxford United lose four two at Spurs in the F A Cup, but are by no means disgraced.
There are two goals for Martin Foyle, but Spurs' Paul Gascoigne also scores twice and he proves to be their match winner.
Elsewhere, there are wins for Thame, Abingdon Town and Milton; Oxford City's long unbeaten run disappears, Witney draw, as do Banbury and Carterton, and the game between Wantage and Bicester ends as a draw, but there are defeats for Abingdon United, Headington and Didcot.
In rugby, Bicester are through to the semi-finals of the Provincial Insurance Cup.
Well there'll be more on all these games in a moment, first the local classified football results: F A Cup fourth round; Spurs four, Oxford United two.
The Beezer Homes League Southern division: Witney one, Canterbury one.
The Vauxhall League, division two south; Bracknell one, Abingdon Town two.
The South Midland League premier division; Pyrton one, Thame four.
The South Midland League Trophy; Shenley and Lowton five, Oxford City two.
The Hellenic League; Abingdon United nil, Rayners Lane three; Banbury nil, Almondsbury nil; Carterton two, Swindon Athletic two; Fairford two, Headington Amateurs nil; Shortwood one, Didcot nil; Wantage two, Bicester two.
And the Berks and Bucks Intermediate Cup; Fairmile Hospital one, Milton three.
Now for a look at the national classified results, here's Hedley Feast.
The F A Cup fourth round; Cambridge United two, Middlesbrough nil; Coventry City one, Southampton one; Crew Alexandra one, Rotherham United nil; Liverpool two, Brighton and Hove Albion two; Luton Town one, West Ham United one; Manchester United one, Bolton Wanderers nil, Milwall four, Sheffield Wednesday four; Norwich City three, Swindon Town one; Notts County two, Oldham Athletic nil; Port Vale one, Manchester City two; Portsmouth five, Bournemouth one; Shrewsbury Town one, Wimbledon nil; Tottenham Hotspur four, Oxford United two.
Barclay's League division one; Sheffield United one, Derby County nil; division two; Bristol Rovers three, Bristol City two; Leicester City one, Blackburn Rovers three; division three; Bradford City nil, Grimsby Town two; Brentford two, Swansea City nil; Bury nil, Birmingham City one; Exeter City two, Mansfield Town nil; Huddersfield Town one, Fulham nil; Leyton Orient one, Chester City nil; Preston Northend two, Southend United one; division four; Burnley three, Stockport County two; Carlisle United nil, Hereford United one; Chesterfield one, Torquay United one; Halifax Town nil, Darlington nil; Northampton Town two, Aldershot one; Scunthorpe United two, Maidstone United two; Walsall nil, Peterborough United one; Wrexham nil, Blackpool one; York City nil, Hartlepool United nil; the Scottish F A Cup third round; Aberdeen nil, Motherwell one; Airdrionians two, Heart of Midlothian one; Clydebank nil, Ayr one; Dundee one, Brechin nil; Forfar nil, Celtic two; Kilmarnock three, Arbroath two; Partick Thistle nil, Falkirk nil; Wraith Rovers nil, Hamilton Academical one; St Johnstone nil, Berwick Rangers nil; Stirling Albion nil, Morton one; Stranraer one, St Mirren five; the Scottish B and Q League division two; Stenhouse Muir two, Albion Rovers nil; G M Conference; Altrincham three, Kettering two; Barnet two, Bath nil; Boston four, Yeovil nil; Cheltenham one, Runcorn three; Merthyr one, Welling nil; Northwich one, Kidderminster one; Stafford nil, Gateshead one; Sutton nil, Colchester one; Telford three, Fisher one; Wyckham two, Barrow one; the H F S Loans League; Bishop Auckland three, Bangor nil; Frickley three,Ghoul two; Horwich nil, Marine nil; Leek one, Hyde one; Matlock one, Fleetwood one; Morcambe two, Witton nil; Mossley one, Shepshed nil; South Liverpool three, Droylsdon four; Southport one, Gainbsborough nil; Staleybridge two, Chorley one; the Beezer Homes League; Atherston nil, Rugby one; Bromsgrove two, Cambridge City two; Chelmsford nil, Worcester nil; Dorchester nil, Rushton nil; Farnborough five, Gravesend nil; Moregreen three, Burton six; Poole one, Gloucester two; Wealdstone one, Hales Owen two; and finally Weymouth nil, Dover one.
Headley Feast with the national classified, one result to change of the local footballs in the Beezer Homes League, southern division, I'm afraid it was a defeat for Witney; Witney one, Canterbury two, that's in the Beezer Homes League southern division; Witney one, Canterbury two.
Well our big match today was the F A Cup fourth round up at White Hart Lane; it finished Spurs four, Oxford United two.
Reporting on the match, here's Nick Harris:
Well the difference between these two sides was a Newcastle born mid-fielder, by the name of Paul Gascoigne; not only did he score two second half goals for the first division club, but he dominated proceedings in mid-field.
Not that United disgraced themselves in any way at all, they matched Spurs ball for ball and played some delightful football and an awful lot of courage; they were two nil down when they pulled it back to two one, they were three one down when they pulled it back to three two.
They got off to a great start when they almost scored after just two and a half minutes, when Jim Magilton fed Lee Nogan, and his left foot shot was brilliantly saved by Eric Torsvale, tipping the ball all round the post for a corner.
But back came Spurs and in the eighth minute, they took the all important lead.
So seven minutes of the game gone and a mistake by Andy Melville letting in Gary Lineker, but Spurs take a short corner.
Still no goals, it's play to Gascoigne, Gascoigne now still going forward, Gascoigne on the edge of the penalty, looking for the one two, he gets the one two, great tackle there by Les Robinson, there's still a chance to Spurs Steve Foster , chance now — and it's a goal to Spurs.
He put it away, a bit of hesitation there in the Oxford United defence, and it's a goal to Spurs scored by Gary Mafford, in fact he's put the ball in the net; mistake from Andy Melville gave Spurs a corner, the ball wasn't cleared, Gascoigne played a one two, was blocked by United, it came out to Mafford in the end and the goal's in so Spurs take the lead after eight minutes.
So Spurs getting the lead they so dearly wanted after all their upsets of recent weeks, but back came United in the eighteenth minute, Les Phillips sent Nogan free over the halfway line and Eric Torsville had to race from his line to hack the ball into the stand.
But a minute later, Spurs were two nil up, some sloppy play in mid-field, the ball looped over the United defence to Gary Lineker, he ran on and hammered a tremendous shot into the roof of the net for his fourteenth goal of the season.
But still United pushed forward, Simpson a free kick went over the cross bar in the twenty third minute and then, just as I was giving a flash to Radio Oxford listeners, United pulled one back on the half hour.
As I speak, a chance now for Martin Foyle; Foyle has scored for Oxford, he's done it, Oxford have pulled one back, tremendous through ball for Martin Foyle, he cheeked his way round the goalkeeper, put it in with the side of his foot so you've come at exactly the right time, thirty one minutes gone, Spurs two, Oxford United one and the goal coming from Martin Foyle.
In fact it was Les Phillips who threaded the ball through to Martin Foyle, and he had a marvellous game for United in the heart of their engine room, and just five minutes later, United almost equalised.
Martin Foyle sent over the perfect cross, Lee Nogan got above the Spurs defence, he got his ball  head to the ball, but it went over the cross bar and the chance had gone.
And Spurs piled then forward, towards the end of the first half, trying to get that all important third goal, but United, to their credit, held firm.
Well the second half started with United in tremendous form; they pushed more and more men forward, they won two consecutive corners, they really started to get on top, but then, with forty minutes of the second half gone, Spurs scored that all important third goal.
Spurs trying to build slowly and purposely with Nayim .
Nayim now forward to Paul Stewart, sorry to Paul Allen, Allen lays it wide now to Fenwick, Fenwick to Gascoigne, Gascoigne cuts inside, this is where he's his most dangerous, Gascoigne going forward looking for the one two to Walsh, to Gascoigne, Gascoigne's on his way through, Gascoigne shoots — tremendous tackle — oh what a goal by Paul Gascoigne.
A wonderful one two with Paul  Gascoigne runs under the ball, he obeys the tackle of Steve Foster, he gets round Ken Basey, what a goal, you can't do ..
So Paul Gascoigne making it three one as I say, having a marvellous match, but United once again came back into things.
Les Phillips running the show in mid-field, Steve Foster defending stoutly at the back and the front runners always giving Spurs problems especially when the ball was played over the top.
United took off Lee Nogan and brought on Mark Stein and just when the game seemed to be slipping from their grasp, they pulled back a vital goal through Martin Foyle.
So eleven minutes remaining plus a little bit of injury time, it's still Spurs three, Oxford United one, United go forward, a chip forward there by Simpson.
There's a chance now for Martin Foyle; Martin Foyle — and he's scored, oh a great chip forward by Simpson, it's laid back there to Martin Foyle, he takes the ball on his chest and Martin Foyle has done it.
Eleven minutes of this tie remaining, it's far from dead, Martin Foyle ..
And guess who was the man involved heading the ball from the chip; Les Phillips once again laying the ball back to Martin Foyle.
United then began to pile men forward as they had to, Simpson causing problems down the left, Phillips again in mid-field winning a lot of ball, but of course United leaving a few gaps at the back, and just before the finish, four minutes before the finish, that man Gascoigne put the game beyond United's reach, giving Spurs a four two victory.
But Gascoigne wins it back, but Stein beats Gascoigne to the ball, lays it forward now to Simpson, Simpson — bad ball by Simpson, it's Spurs in possession down the right side, it's Paul Allen faced by Gary  again, in fact it's Paul Stewart, Stewart gets inside, will he get in the shooting chance, he's trying to — chance now for Gascoigne, Gascoignes get in his shot and he's scored.
He's put the game beyond Oxford United, the ball played into Paul Gascoigne, he shoots hard and high, above Ken Basey, into the roof of the net.
And that was that.
A marvellous fourth round Cup Tie, a pulsating game up here at White Hart Lane, watched by a very big crowd, and those five thousand or so Oxford United fans now making their way home down the M twenty five and the M forty, can be justly proud of their side.
Final score line up here at White Hart Lane; Tottenham Hotspur four, Oxford United two.
Mpb Nick Harris reporting on a pulsating game up at Tottenham this afternoon.
You're listening to B B C Radio Oxford and Talking Sport, seventeen minutes past five is the score, and hopefully we'll be going back to White Hart Lane shortly and catching up with some of the players.
But now some reports on a couple of the other games this afternoon; in the South Midland League Trophy; Shenley and Lowton five, Oxford City two; so the end of a long unbeaten run for Oxford City; our reporter, John Shepherd.
City's unbeaten run went crashing down today when Shenley and Leyton put paid to their chances of further progress in the South Midland League's Challenge Trophy.
It looked from the start that they would preserve their record when they scored after five minutes from the kick off.
From a free kick on the right, Chris Williams sent over the accurate ball for Steve Hodges to meet unchallenged and score at the far corner with his head.
Hudson might have added a second, but taken by surprise to find the ball at his feet, it bounced into the arms of the keeper.
City were competing well in mid-field and keeping their opponents at full stretch, but after twenty four minutes, Shenley pulled level as Paul Armitage crossed into goalkeeper Steve Roberts, but he lost possession as he collided with Andy King and allowed Rob Blackmore to get a touch and send it over the line.
Chris Williams put Frankie Machavellio clear but he was unable to lose his mark and the chance was gone.
Shenley went in front in the thirty fifth minute as City failed to get clear Mark Turrell's corner kick, as the ball crossed the goal line.
With four minutes of the first half left, disaster struck for City within the space of two minutes as they suddenly found themselves four one down with two penalties in quick succession.
The first came as Steve Brown handled, sorry as Steve Brown tackled  in the area, that saw Armitage score off the underside of the cross bar, and from the second, Armitage centre struck Andy King on the hand, and a penalty was put away by Bernie McConnell.
Three minutes after the break, City know it was not going to be their day, they themselves were awarded a penalty when Frankie Machavellio was brought down in the area.
City's leaders caused Steve Hudsbeth whose tally of goals kept pace with their beaten run, stepped up to take the kick, only to see his effort go outside.
On sixty eight minutes, City fell further behind when  long cross from the far side reached Bernie McConnell who sent a looping header over Roberts for his second goal of the game.
City tried hard to get back into it but their task was always going to be maintenance, although Paul Hackett struck a good goal in a move involving several players, to reduce the area on seventy four minutes.
So not a good day for City, but they shouldn't lose heart, as the score line  the home side, and on another day might well be reversed as they were not that much difference in the goals.
Final score; Shenley and Lowton five, Oxford City two.
John Shepherd reporting.
Well, so Oxford City lose their unbeaten run, but Abingdon Town keep going, that's in the Vauxhall League division two South, the score this afternoon down at Bracknell; Bracknell one, Abingdon Town two, our reporter Nick Quayle.
Abingdon Town struggled to record a two one win against hosts Bracknell Town here today, and will certainly need to improve their finishing if they are to maintain their challenge at the top of the Vauxhall League, division two south.
It should have been a relatively easy game as Bracknell were without many first team regulars, but their youngsters were a credit as they hustled Abingdon all the way.
Town started very positively against the makeshift Bracknell team, and right from the kick off, Abingdon asserted their authority on the game.
Bracknell's youth team keeper, Dean Simmons was soon under pressure and as early as the ninth minute, Abingdon took the lead; having forced a corner, Keith Appleton swung the ball into the area, Steve Aries won it well in the air, and knocked it down to Liam Herbert who crashed his shot past Simmons to make it one nil.
Town's top scorer, Paul Bradbury was also not missing out on the action and came close on three or four occasions, but Simmons was playing excellently to deny him.
They looked to be all one way traffic as Abingdon's mid-field dominated the game, setting up chances for the front runners, but the final touch was always missing.
Simmons seemed  saved shots from Herbert and Aries and did well to turn away a goalbound shot from Appleton.
Town went two nil up straight after the restart, when Bradbury had a good run on the left wing, centred for Aries who nodded the ball back to a waiting Kevin Connelly and he made no mistake with a low shot.
Aries was denied again by keeper Simmons when a goal seemed certain, but it appeared that Abingdon could not turn possession into goals as chance after chance went begging.
Minutes before the end, Bracknell got their just rewards for their hard effort from almost their first chance of the game; they forced two quick corners and following a scramble in the Town area, John Smith managed to turn the ball home.
So final score here; Bracknell Town one, Abingdon Town two.
So another victory for Abingdon Town.
Let's move down now to the Hellenic League premier division; Wantage at home to Bicester, that game finished two goals apiece, our reporter Andy Wells.
A superbly worked goal by Wantage when John Cully headed home a pin point cross by Stewart Bradbury with five minutes remaining, looked to have won this match for three vitally needed points in the Hellenic League premier division.
However, for the third time this season, Wantage could not hold on to a lead given them in the last five minutes, and allowed Andy Martin to shoot home for the equaliser for Bicester.
Earlier, Mark Hartline, recently selected for the England Youth Squad, should have given Bicester the lead when he was through twice on the keeper, but put the ball wide.
Play was end to end in the first half, but catching Bicester cold after a player had been down injured for some time, Wantage took the lead on thirty five minutes, when Andy Cooper brilliantly volleyed home a touch on from Jamie Alexander for a one nil half time lead.
Just before half time, Kevin Leach made a terrific save from another Cooper volley, just tipping over to prevent them going down two nil.
In the second half, Alexander made two good chances for himself, but it was Bicester who deservedly equalised after a sustained spell of pressure when Mark Butler stabbed home a loose ball from a corner.
Play began to get scrappy, but chances went at both ends until Cully and Martin provided the late excitement; Wantage Town two, Bicester Town two.
Andy Wells reporting.
And staying in the Hellenic League the premier division; Abingdon United nil, Rayners Lane three; our reporter, Ray Barlow.
Abingdon United came back down to earth with a bang this afternoon when they were defeated at home by three goals to nil by lowly Rayners Lane.
The game started disastrously for United when after a mistake by Martin Shepherd, Kenny Langston ran on to beat the advancing Richardson with a low shot into the corner of United's goal in the fourth minute.
This set back spurred United into action and they penned Rayners Lane into their own half for long periods, forcing eight corners in the first forty minutes of the game.
But the nearest they came to scoring was in the forty third minute; Neil Keller in the Rayners Lane goal saving brilliantly from a fifteen yard volley from Martin Shepherd.
He again saved his side from the fiftieth minute when he flew across his goal to fingertip a  around his near post.
This save proved the turning point of the game because United pushed forward and the pace of Kenny Langston proved to be the undoing of United's square defence.
In the sixtieth minute he burst between Shepherd and Webb before drawing Shepherd  before drawing Richardson from his goal to square the ball across the penalty area for Neil Owen to shoot into the empty net.
Then in the seventieth minute he left Martin Smythe for dead wide out on the right before finishing  the ball across Richardson into the far corner of United's goal.
United to continued to prove  to press forward but found their moves breaking down in the visitor's penalty area.
The final whistle came with Rayners Lane holding on to win by three goals to nil.
That's our reporter Ray Barlow.
Now I think we can go back to White Hart Lane; Oxford United losing this afternoon by four goals to two away to Spurs in the F A Cup fourth round, and I believe that Nick Harris is with manager Brian Horton.
Thank you and welcome back to White Hart Lane Peter; I've got with me United manager Brian Horton.
Beaten Brian, but surely very pleased with the performance of the lads.
Yes, I mean I've got to say to that, I thought they kept going; two nothing down you know  and I've played in games where your playing top opposition and you can go under a little bit can't you.
Credit to them, they came back, got a great goal, Les Phillips had a great game, made the first one I think, no the second one he made didn't he? erm But he played tremendous, Les; he got the passing going and I thought they did very well as a team, we kept our composure.
The second goal disappointed me because we talked about Lineker getting behind it.
And we seemed to have lost erm Nick Harris and manager Brian Horton, but hopefully we'll be going back to that, so let's move to the Berks and Bucks Intermediate Cup; Fairmile Hospital against Milton, this match finished Fairmile Hospital one, Milton three; waiting to report, David Taylor.
Yes, there was to be no Cup upset this afternoon as Hellenic League leaders Milton United overcame their Reading Senior League opponents at Fairmile in the Berks and Bucks Intermediate Cup fourth round.
Two goals from Milton's leading scorer Nigel Mott and one from Neil Allen put this game beyond doubt, the opening encounter was fast and furious with bone jarring tackles from both sets of players, and referee, Mr Merchant from Newbury did well to keep it from boiling over.
After fourteen minutes, Paul Biddle went close for Milton as his corner went just over the bar.
Ian Humphreys and Duncan Mitchell were making space down the right wing for Milton as the visitors started to click into gear, searching and probing for a way past the Fairmile defence.
And on twenty five minutes, Nigel Mott got that opening goal as an excellent through ball from Paul Biddle found him in space and he placed the ball wide of the Fairmile goalkeeper Mark Carrigan; Fairmile were not to be perturbed by this as on their half an hour Wayne Glossop went close for the home side.
On thirty seven minutes though, Paul Biddle should have made it two nil as he found himself with just the Fairmile goalkeeper to beat, but stupidly played it wide for Brian Marland, but his final pass was poor and Fairmile's Kevin Shepherd was able to clear the ball from the danger area.
But three minutes before half time, Milton grabbed the second goal as Neil Allen fired home direct from a free kick some twenty yards out after Paul Biddle had been fouled.
The second half was only six minutes old as Fairmile's Kevin Shepherd's close range snapshot sent Milton's goalkeeper Paul Whittington diving to his left save, and one minute later Clive Minor's shot was kicked off the line by Milton's Paul Storey, as Fairmile tried to reduce the deficit.
But on fifty nine minutes Milton put the game beyond doubt as Nigel Mott grabbed his second goal of the game despite howls of protest from the Fairmile players for offside, he ran through and stroked the ball home with ease.
Paul Biddle squandered another chance for Milton on seventy one minutes as he put the ball wide from close range and then with ten minutes remaining, Fairmile offered themselves a glimmer of hope as Wayne Glossop fired home through a ruck of players.
And then Danny McCann could have scored a second for Fairmile in the dying moments, but he shot over from a good position.
Despite the heavy tackles, only one player was booked; Ricky Cox of Fairmile for a tackle on Ian Humphreys.
The final score here; Fairmile hospital one, Milton United three.
Back to the Hellenic League and the Premier Division; Banbury nil, Almondsbury nil, our reporter Barry Worsley.
Well a very close fought encounter at the stadium; we had to wait for quarter of an hour for the first actual goal chance when Dave Bristow hit the ball from twenty five yards, which just cleared the bar.
Almondsbury were always a problem to Banbury, both teams playing very good football and the mid-field were very dominant on both sides, therefore the amount of chances weren't that great.
Sixteenth minute, Kerry  probably the best move of the game, played the ball to Dave Brooker who slotted the ball through to Wayne McDowell.
His ball to brother Gary McDowell was touched on to Neil Sibble who's first tie shot was cannoned off the bar, that was the nearest that Banbury really got to scoring.
The goalkeeper was well beaten, but as the ball cannoned over for a goal kick and the chance went.
Again it see-sawed to and fro throughout the half erm last couple of minutes Banbury went twice when Peter Smith fired in a shot from twenty yards which Ricky Harding in the Almondsbury goal held very comfortably, and erm Dave Bristow again went close.
erm The second half started as the first half finished, with a  again a very erm entertaining game erm in the fiftieth minute, on a break, Almondsbury's Alex Stocker was nearest to scoring for them when he floated a long ball forward which Mark Sibble was very glad to tip over the bar.
A few minutes later Wayne McDowell, he played the ball out to brother Gary again, whose hard low cross was scrambled clear by the Almondsbury defence to  back to Wayne McDowell whose lob shot ended up resting in the top of the netting.
Again erm the game was to and fro, see-sawing one way and then the other, erm quite an exciting game to the uncommitted considering there were no goals scored erm in about the seventieth minute, Neil Sibble, he took the ball from the half way line on an individual run, but after beating two defenders his shot was well saved by Harding.
Almondsbury came more into it as the last twenty minutes came and erm forced a few corners; Banbury had probably the more chances of getting the elusive winner erm but the game could have gone either way and I think after all is considered erm the final result was a fair result.
In a fortnight's time the fixture is reversed with Banbury making the trip to Almondsbury, but the result of this game was Banbury United nil, Almondsbury Pixons nil.
Barry Worsley reporting.
Let's move now up to the Beezer Homes League Southern Division; Witney one, Canterbury two, our reporter, Adrian Burcher.
A bad mistake by the linesman cost Witney the three points in today's  battle against fellow strugglers Canterbury City at Marriots Close.
Things seemed to be going fairly well for Town; Dave Warner made a tremendous one handed save from Sammy Spence on thirteen minutes, whilst up the other end, Steve Jenkins, Kenny Clarke and Jimmy Austin all saw efforts cleared in a goalmouth melee.
But on twenty eight minutes disaster struck; Canterbury striker Sammy Spence was making his way back up field and was clearly ten yards offside.
David Gear hit the ball over the defence and Spence immediately changed direction and chased; for some unknown reason, no flag appeared, allowing Spence to slot home past the helpless Warner to the annoyance of the home players.
From this point, Witney took the bit between their teeth and fought back in search of an equaliser.
On sixty one minutes, Steve Jenkins ran through on to Gary Murphy's through ball only to be died by the cross bar.
More bad luck was to follow a minute later; Steve Jenkins hit a cross shot which Spencer Creedon parried across the six yard box, Kenny Clark followed up and desperately slid in but was denied by the post, and in doing so, dislocated his finger, but was luckily allowed back into the action within minutes following treatment.
On sixty six minutes, Clark again saw another effort run just wide, but three minutes later, Witney got their reward; Brian Flannery headed David Scott's clearance down to Julio Berazi.
Berazi carried the ball down to the edge of the box, then slipped a delightful ball through to Clark who made no mistake crashing home his eighteenth goal of the season.
At this point, Witney looked like they might snatch all three points, but Canterbury's Neil Scott had other ideas.
Billy Ploose's up and under fell behind Town defence bouncing kindly for Scott who kept his head and finished coolly.
The score once again for Marriotts Close; Witney Town one, Canterbury City two.
So Witney's little run comes to an end.
Right let's catch up with Headley Feast and the details of all the national football today.
Yes, the first goal in the fourth round of the F A Cup was scored at Millwall when Stevenson put the home side in front after just one minute of their tie with Sheffield Wednesday; Ron Atkinson's side hit back to equalise after twelve minutes.
On the half hour, Francis put Wednesday two one up but five minutes from the break, Ray netted to equalise for Millwall.
Sheffield Wednesday regained the lead through Pearson in the fifty ninth minute, but Millwall came back and Sherringham made it three three after sixty three minutes.
Palmer put Sheffield Wednesday back into the lead with four minutes left and on the stroke of time, Sherringham made it four four.
Crewe Alexander were also quick off the mark, Hignett giving them a tenth minute lead at home to Rotherham, and the only goal of the game puts Crewe into round five.
Manchester City's Quinn netted in the eleventh minute in their match away to Port Vale, but the home side drew level with ace marksman Beckford after thirty six minutes.
Manchester City were back in front after seventy one minutes through Allen, and that's how the game finished; Port Vale one, Manchester City two.
Shrewsbury at home to first division Wimbledon took the lead through Shaw after thirty nine minutes, and Shrewsbury, now managed by John Bond, go through to the fifth round.
Cambridge United and Middlesbrough were unable to break the deadlock in the first half of their match, but Taylor gave Cambridge the lead after sixty seven minutes and it was Taylor who made it two nil fifteen minutes from time to give Cambridge a memorable victory.
Norwich City and Swindon's tie at Carrow Road was also without goals in the first half, but Swindon's Lorenzo was given his marching orders.
Five minutes after the break, White put Swindon in front but Norwich City pulled level after sixty five minutes through Gordon.
Mid way through the second half, Gittins was the second Swindon player to be sent off and against nine man Swindon, Norwich's Mortenson gave them lead.
One minute from time, Flex scored Norwich's third to make it a miserable afternoon for Swindon.
Portsmouth took the lead in their match at Fratton Park against Bournemouth through Clark, right on the stroke of half time.
Wittingham made it two nil on the hour and then followed two further goals from Wittingham with Faraday replying for Bournemouth, but Wittingham struck again his fourth to make the final score; Portsmouth five, Bournemouth one.
Coventry City were in front one minute before half time in their home tie with Southampton: Kilkline the scorer.
Shearer equalised for Southampton with a penalty in the fifty second minute, and the replay at Southampton midweek.
Notts County at home to Oldham went into a forty second minute lead through Turner, and this all second division clash saw Notts County go further ahead through Short after sixty five minutes; two nil the final score.
West Ham doing so well in the second division went to first division Luton, and by half time they were in front, a Pariss goal after forty three minutes, but Luton hit back in the seventieth minute through Black, and these two sides must replay.
Liverpool and Brighton had a goal-less first half, but Ian Rush put Liverpool in front three minutes into the second half, and two minutes later the same goal scorer netted number two.
However, Brighton were not overawed and they came back with a penalty through Small after seventy three minutes.
Burne netted number two for Brighton and these two sides go to the south coast in the week.
Manchester United at home to Bolton were held to a goal-less first half  first forty five minutes, and they had to wait until the seventy seventh minute before taking the lead through Hughes, and United go through with a one nil win.
Headley Feast with today's round up of the national football.
Now I think we can go back to White Hart Lane and Nick Harris talking to Oxford United manager, Brian Horton.
Well, welcome back to White Hart Lane Peter, I've got with me United manager Brian Horton.
Beaten Brian, but surely very pleased with the performance of the lads?
Yes, I mean I've got to say that, I thought they kept going at two nothing down you know sides , and I've played in games where you're playing top opposition and you can go under a little bit can't you?
Credit to them, they came back, got a great goal, Les Phillips had a great game; made the first one I think, no the second one he made didn't he? erm But he played tremendous, Les, got the passing going, and I thought we did very well as a team, we kept our composure.
The second goal disappointed me because we'd talked about Lineker getting behind us, let Gary Lineker have the ball in front and then he's not so dangerous obviously; that's his strength, over the top, bump it in the net.
That disappointed me, because we'd talked about it and done that yesterday in training.
And when things happen like that, it disappoints me.
You can't stop Gascoigne's goal, I mean that's tremendous play, great play.
All the talk after the game is about Gascoigne, but he really had had a marvellous match hadn't he?
I had to make the decision, do I put Mickey Lewis on him, leave Martin Foyle out and stick Mickey Lewis on Gascoigne?
I think I've made the right decision because Foyly scored two goals, and I don't think you stop a player of his quality, I mean they tried it with George Best, they've tried it with, you know Manfred Mann and they always do something special don't they?
He did things  he did special things against Chelsea tonight and they lost three nothing.
You can't stop that, I mean that's what I've said to the Press, you don't want him to go abroad because I think everybody's going to miss that, because there are aren't too many that can do things like he does.
Little Les Phillips just said in the dressing room, you can't get near him, he's so explosive over five, ten yards, you know he played the one two bumpers into the  ah, it's a fantastic goal.
But you know, let's not talk him all the time because I think some of our players gave good performances today.
Absolutely, you didn't come here and kick and rush, you didn't come here and defend, you played some delightful football, football I know you always like to play, that must have pleased you the way the game was played.
It does please me but the thing sometimes is, you don't get results, I mean I just said to him at half time ‘come on we've got to be a bit stronger,’ you know I thought we were playing quite well, but I thought we were letting them dominate us a little bit.
You know you've got to get your foot in and  you know if you've got erm people in tackles, come on, they aren't any different to anybody else and maybe I thought we could have done that a little bit better.
But the passing, the finishing was good, Lee Nogan hit a good shot, first couple of men in so you know that goes in, it's a different game.
We just couldn't get quite at them could we, like you know, two one, they go three one, three two, they go four two, you know, like you think ‘oh if you just could have’, you know.
Maybe we just had a little bit of pressure, but that's good players, they punish you don't they, top players?
Martin Foyle what, out of the side for so long — bit of a gamble to bring him back in; he did you proud.
Yes he  Foyly, he's got a heart as big as a lion and he'll always do that, Foyly, whether he's been injured or not, for you, and I'm pleased he got the goals.
erm People who get the goals get the headlines don't they erm so I'm pleased for him erm John Durning now is missing for two games erm he misses erm Oldham and Swindon, so that's pleasing to have Foyly back.
erm We'll just have to see what goes now this week, but erm I'm pleased with Foyly.
I'm pleased we've gone away probably, you know, we've made a few friends because everbody's just said to me how well we've played and you know, it was a great game and all that kind of stuff, so that pleases me, I just don't like losing.
Finally, we've got to bring the players back to earth a bit, but two absolute cracking games to look forward to in the next couple of weeks; Oldham next week, probably the best footballing side in the second division, and away to Swindon the week after, so still a lot to look forward to although disappointment at going out of the Cup.
There's always things to look forward to football isn't there?
You know, it is a pressure job and Terry must have been under pressure today because if we'd have beaten them, then you know their season would have crumbled.
But erm there's always things to look forward to in football and yes Oldham's going to be a good game for us, but we need to win; then Swindon, our old rivals that we can't beat for years.
It might be our turn mightn't it?
If we play like that we're going to beat sides aren't we.
It's if we go back in and think we're good players again like we did at West Brom and don't compete.
I think we competed today but erm maybe one or two areas where I thought we might have got stuck in a little bit more you know, and we're going to have to do that against Oldham I tell you because they'll pass and have players that can do tricks erm good side aren't they?
So, you know we've got a week now to maybe watch the T V tonight, watch the goals again tomorrow, enjoy what we've just done, but erm some hard work ahead of it in the next few weeks.
Brian, thank you very much.
Thank you.
Nick Harris talking to Oxford United manager, Brian Horton.
Well, while United have been playing at White Hart Lane, it's rather overshadowed Bicester Rugby Cup at Hucklecote Old Boys in the Provincial Insurance Cup.
Well, they won by twelve points to seven, they move through to the semi-finals, just one match away from a performance at Twickenham; reporting on the game this afternoon, Graham Cook.
Bicester Rugby Club were in the semi-finals of the Provincial Insurance Cup following an excellent hard four weeks, to go to Gloucester opponents, Hucklecote Old Boys at  this afternoon.
Bicester had to withstand incessant Old Boys pressure in the final quarter of an hour, finally were outright winners by twelve points to seven.
Hucklecote made most of the early running and took the lead on six minutes, Steve Barslow converting a penalty, and they increased that lead after a quarter of an hour when Mark Halkins went over for a try following good work from Steve Hamslow.
This was the first real chance of a score  a couple of minutes earlier, Neil Smith attempting a drop goal.
The visitors reduced the arrears with a try on twenty minutes scored by Colin Vynal and converted by Neil Smith, and right on the interval took the lead with another try, this time from skipper, Simon Grater erm again converted by Neil Smith following a mistake in the Old Boys' defence.
After the interval, chances were few and far between and most of the early play took place in mid-field, but towards the end Hucklecote applied severe pressure, but the visitor's defence superbly mastered by outside half, Neil Smith held out for a fine hard-earned victory.
The final score; Hucklecote Old Boys seven, Bicester twelve.
So congratulations to Bicester, after the game I managed to catch up with Colin Vynal who scored one of the goals, rather poor quality I'm afraid, he was on a mobile phone erm a bit of celebration going on, but here's Colin Vynal of the Bicester Rugby Club.
Oh yes, most of the lads here are really erm over the moon about it, it was a tough game, we erm outplayed them for the first probably three quarters of an hour really .
They put erm tremendous pressure on our line but we seemed to repel every attack and erm held firm.
No score in the second half to you or to Hucklecote; was it hard work?
It was very hard work yes, we created one chance when  went begging with a forward pass, but it's just one of them things.
And then as I say, it was defend, defend, defend for the last quarter of an hour.
So what now Colin?
The semi-finals.
Isn't it, yes.
That's right, yes, the draw's on T V tomorrow, we're looking forward to that.
I don't know who's got through from the other games, but we'll take anyone on really I think.
You're getting closer and closer to that magic place Twickenham.
That's true yes, I've never even been there at all, let alone played there.
Was it a game today that went how you thought it might do?
Well, oh gosh, the team seemed to play in one way like, nine man rugby scrum, scrum and scrum half and that's about it isn't it, probably was how we planned it.
But as I say, it was hard work , it wasn't an easy game.
Right, I believe you've got some of the other players next door to if you'd like to put somebody on.
Simon Greater the other try scorer, I'll hand you over to him now.
I've got to stick my finger in my ear as well?
I don't know.
Hello?
Hello Simon, well you can stick your finger anywhere you like, you can stick it up in the air, because you're victorious today.
That's right  that's right.
And a try 
Marvellous victory.
And a try for you today, that must have sealed it for you 
Yes, thirty four and a try as well.
Now, you've been having problems with a shoulder injury in recent weeks, did you have any problem today?
No, not at all, no I  if there'd been any doubt then I wouldn't have played, but erm no doubt at all .
It was erm a marvellous victory, erm still erm still soaking in really.
You seem to specialise in these narrow victories; you went away in the last round, up to Greenwich and also had a narrow one there.
That's right yes, well as I've always said erm from the last erm eight, last sixteen, erm it's always going to be tight matches, cut rugby one score in it really erm it's cut rugby really.
There's going to be no walkovers now , I mean we're eighty minutes away from Twickenham.
Well you want one walkover don't you, then you'll be walking round at Twickenham.
Well that would be nice, that would be nice, yes.
Great support for you today from the local Bicester people?
tremendous support, yes, it was great.
I think we outnumbered their support here, it was  it gave the players a great lift, it was tremendous erm all credit to them erm we will drag even more along to the next game.
Well, congratulations to you; enjoy tonight, I think you will do.
I think I will and I think the rest of the team might have a few erm sherbets tonight, I don't know.
And that's Simon Greater and before him, Colin Vynal from the Bicester Rugby Club who were triumphant at Hucklecote Old Boys today, and the draw for the next round of course, the semi-finals, on television tomorrow.
Some other rugby results today; in the Unicyst merit table; Oxford twelve, Askians twenty one; and in club matches; Kings Burians thirty, Oxford Old Boys seven; Chinnor three, Windsor forty three; Littlemore sixteen, Chilton twenty two; Oxford Marathons twenty four, Old Abbotsonians nil; Abingdon forty seven, Chesham seven; Didcot sixteen, High Wycombe three; and Witney nil, Saintbridge nineteen.
A reminder you're listening to B B C Radio Oxford and Talking Sport, just coming up to thirteen minutes to six.
I think we can go back just for a final to White Hart Lane, and join up with Nick Harris — got his breath back now Nick, I think a tremendous afternoon though for you.
Ah, fabulous Peter, tremendous Cup Tie, great display by Oxford United and the showing of a world class footballer for everybody to see.
Really you couldn't ask for much more, of course we wanted United to win, but as people will see on the television tonight, they contributed so much to this game, they played so much good football and to watch Paul Gascoigne in this sort of form is worth anybody's admission money.
Yes, a marvellous afternoon.
You seemed to pick out two players or perhaps three; Les Phillips got a lot of mention, Steve Foster and Martin Foyle for his goals.
Absolutely, I would think they're the three heroes erm Les Phillips in midfield was back to the Les Phillips we knew when he first came to Oxford from Birmingham when we were in the first division.
He had a marvellous game, didn't waste a pass, won all his tackles, laid on both Martin Foyle's goals, obviously Martin Foyle back in the side, took his goals so well; really put himself about and Steve Foster at the back really held things together when erm things could have gone really calamitously.
You just feel United what, were two nil down after fourteen minutes erm things really could have gone so badly for them, but they held firm, they got back into the game and full credit to all of them.
So back to the nitty gritty next Saturday; Oldham at the Manor, and we need a win there?
That's the trouble isn't it Peter, that's so often the trouble with United as well, they've done so well this afternoon, but such an important game against Oldham, again I'm a great Oldham fan, I think Oldham play some delightful football.
erm If United can play as well as they did this afternoon and Oldham perform as well as we know they can, we're in for a really tremendous game of football.
Let's hope so, Nick Harris thank you very much; that's Nick Harris up at White Hart Lane helped this afternoon by United mid-fielder, Steve McClaren.
Well, looking ahead to this evening, the Woofers the greyhounds at the Oxford Stadium, with his tips for us in Radio Oxford yankee, here's Mick Weeble.
Alright here we go then; the first race tonight is seven thirty erm it's a twelve ways programme, but the first erm selection's in the second race which is the seven forty five, and this is a name two grade, four fifty metres erm which is five hundred yards.
Anyway we're going to go for trap two, Smoky Amber here, now she's a bitch that is really, I think's going to be something special over a longer trip, erm you know a longer distance, but she is only a March eighty nine so she's not two yet.
But erm she's coming along the right way so it's trap two, Smoky Amber for me there; dangers I think will be Barefoot Champion six and Marla Gain in five.
The second leg of our yankee is the eight forty five, well this is a sprint race; two fifty metres, only erm only go round two bends, and therefore you have to have some erm early pace sort of erm greyhounds, and I'm going to go for a trap one here, Chair Boy's Blue, he's already won plenty over this erm shorter trip.
erm Has a nice looking draw tonight, trap one, Chair Boy's Blue then, dangers I think will be Glenkaveckia in trap three and Silky Blue in trap two.
And then for the third leg of our erm Radio Oxford yankee, we go over in the tenth race, the nine forty eight.
Well this is a four fifty metre, an A three grade and I'm going to go for trap five, Hippy.
erm She's having her first race tonight erm under her latest  a newish trainer, Bernie Doyle, he's doing ever so well, his kennel's really in form erm so I'm going to go for trap five, Hippy to win erm first time erm at the track tonight, that's the third leg.
erm And then the twelfth race, the ten twenty, there was just the top erm standard distance event, an A one grade, four fifty metres and I'm going to go for trap one again, Ambridge Power, trained by Paul Garland, another nice erm nice dog, he's running really well.
He's going to have to improve a little bit on his last win, but I think he can do that, so that's the fourth leg of a yankee, trap one, Ambridge Power.
So four winners you've given us, any news about the track, to tell everybody for the next week?
Yes erm now on erm Tuesday as I say we've got five open races actually Peter, five open races on Tuesday, but erm one of the best erm things that happened to us is that the Pall Mall which is the biggest event erm in erm March, erm that's being sponsored now by one of the track bookmakers called Max Thomas and the best thing about it is that erm he is erm putting in so much prize money with the major  the supporting opens on our gala night, that erm there's not a race worth  in the open race, there's not worth less than two hundred and erm there's three races worth five hundred pounds each to the winner and the big race is worth five thousand so that's an early erm plug for  to keep in your diary, like the Pall Mall which is March the twenty third.
And just finally, on Friday we are in to the  we've been invited into a bags competition, you know, that's after the bags  actually means bookmakers afternoon greyhound services, and we race that every Friday as you know erm anyway we've been invited to erm a national championship involving the other bags tracks that erm involved in this erm and so we stage our two heats on Friday.
So, you know, we're looking forward to getting a little way in that competition.
And that's Mick Weeble the racing manager at the Oxford Stadium.
Now back to football and today's local results: F A Cup fourth round; Spurs four, Oxford United two, the Beezer Homes League southern division; Witney one, Canterbury two; Vauxhall League division two south; Bracknell one, Abingdon Town two; the South Midland League premier division; Pyrton one, Thame four; the South Midland League Trophy; Shenley and Lulton five, Oxford City two; the premier division of the Hellenic League; Abingdon United nil, Rayners Lane three; Banbury nil, Almondsbury Pixons nil; Bishops Cleve nil, Kingbury Rangers two; Carterton two, Swindon Athletic two; Fairford two, Headington Amateurs nil; Moreton one, Hounslow nil; Shortwood one, Didcot nil; Wantage two, Bicester two; division one Cup, first round replay; Wallingford Town two, Pyrton nil; division one; Cheltenham Saracens nil, Wootton Bassett one; Sinderford five, Chipping Norton nil; Cirencester one, Supmarine nil; Clanfield one, Cirencester United one; Easington Sports six, Lambourn Sports nil; Highworth Town two, Kidlington nil; Northleigh nil, Viking Sports two; the reserve League Cup; Kingsbury Rangers two, Swindon Athletic one; the reserve division east; Bicester Town one, Wallingford Town two; Didcot two, Abingdon United one; Headington one, Wantage one; Rayners Lane three, Easington Sports one; Viking Sports two, Northleigh nil; the reserve division west; Almondsbury Pixons one, Carterton one; Chipping Norton two, Cirencester Town two; Cirencester United three, Highworth nil; Supmarine nil, Fairford three; the Berks and Bucks Intermediate Cup fourth round; Fairmile Hospital one, Milton three; the Berks and Bucks Junior Cup fourth round; Embrooks Sports one, Milton United reserves three; and the Herefordshire Senior Cup third round; Ledbury two, Pegasus Juniors one after extra time.
The Oxford City Football Association, C J L Cup; North Oxfordshire Reserves three, Beckley Sports four; Marston three, North Oxford five; Tetsworth nil, County Dairies two; Great Milton three, Wheatley five; In the League; Northway four, Portmahan two; The Oxfordshire Charity Cup; Watlington one, Ardley two; Brize Norton nil, Quarry Nomads four; Eynstone Sports five, Selesians nil; and Spartan Rangers one, Yarnton nil.
The Lord Jersey Football Association, Mid-Oxon Cup; Heyford United six, Red Line Marauders one; K E A United eight, Stanton St John one; Heath one, Arncott nil; division one; Bardwell two, Marsh Gibbon two; The Arthur Crawford Cup; Marauders Reserves three, Bardwell Reserves four; Middle Barton three, Piddington one; Fritwell four, K E A United Reserves one; division two; Marsh Gibbon Reserves one, Kirtlington nil; the Supplementary Cup; Merton one, Heyford United Reserves three; Arncott Reserves four, Heyford Athletic Reserves three; Crusaders nil, Weston nine; Wise Alderman twelve, Wootton Reserves nil; Steeple Aston four, Fritwell Reserves one.
The Witney and District F A, premier division; Ducklington four, Hanborough three; Chadlington one, West Witney five; Hayley one, Stonesfield five; division one; Bampton Town nil, Alsvcott nil; F C Mills three, Chadlington Reserves nil; Hanborough Reserves one, Carterton Eagles two; Tackley one, Spartan Reserves one; West Witney Reserves nil, Minster Lovell one; division two; Addlestrop one, F C Mills Reserves two; Bladon one, Cassington one; Burford two, North Kidlington nil; Stonesfield Reserves three, Kingham five; division three; Alsvcott Reserves one, Crusaders three; Aston four, Hayley Reserves two; Carterton B ten, Hanborough A two; Newland one, Filkins two; division four; Allendale three, Chipping Norton two; Kingham Reserves two, F C Mills A one; Minster Lovell Reserves one, West Witney A four; Witney Royals three, Burford Reserves one; and division five; Askett United two, Charlbury A nil; Cassington Reserves three, Witney Royals Reserves two; Field Town Reserves three, Bampton Reserves one; Freeland Reserves six, Alsvcott A nil; Swinbrook Reserves seven, Chipping Norton Reserves two.
The Banbury and District Football League Benevolent Cup first round proper; Hook Norton two, Bishops Hitchington nil; the Benevolent Cup first round proper replay; Milcombe one, Ruscombe Sports two; Benevolent Cup second round proper; Barford United against Kings Sutton, result not yet in; Hornton one, Bodicote Sports five; the Angel Shield second round; Bloxham Athletic Reserves nil, Hook Norton Reserves two; Ruscote Sports Reserves nil, Middleton Cheney Reserves one; Sinclair United Reserves three, Shipston Excelsior Reserves nil; Wroxham Sports Reserves against Bodicote Reserves postponed; the League premier division; Adderbury one, Sinclair United six; Shipston Excelsior two, Middleton Cheney two; division one; Broughton and North Newington three, Banbury Town two; Fenney Compton two, Bloxham Athletic one; division two; Alcan against Oasthouse postponed; Charlton two, Wardington two; Cropredy two, Oasthouse four; division three; Bishops Hitchington Reserves eight, Brayles United Reserves one; Bloxham Athletic A one, Fenney Compton Reserves one; Deddington Town Reserves one, Milcombe Reserves eight; Kings Sutton Reserves six, Cropredy Reserves nil; Middleton Cheney A two, Hornton Reserves six; the Banbury Guardian Cup; Bodicote Sports Reserves five, Chipping Warden one; and the Supplementary Cup; Wroxham Reserves seven, Alcan nil.
And that's the full round up of all the local football this afternoon.
You're listening to B B C Radio Oxford and Talking Sport, just a minute away from six, hope you've enjoyed the programme this afternoon.
Congratulations to Bicester Rugby Club, and make sure you're listening to the television tomorrow afternoon when they make the draw for the semi-finals of the Provincial Insurance Cup.
Next Saturday of course, Oxford United are at home to Oldham.
Well, coming up is the six o'clock news, we'll leave you with two of the highlights this afternoon from United's F A Cup game, away at Spurs.
As I speak a chance now for Martin Foyle — Foyle has scored for Oxford — he's done it, Oxford have pulled one back, tremendous through ball for Martin Foyle.
He cheeked his way round the goalkeeper, put it in with the side of his foot, so you've come at exactly the right time, thirty one minutes gone, Spurs two, Oxford United one.
So eleven minutes remaining plus a little bit of injury time, it's still Spurs three, Oxford United one; United go forward, a chip forward there by Simpson, there's a chance for Martin Foyle, Martin Foyle — and he's scored.
Oh a great chip forward by Simpson, it's laid back there to Martin Foyle and he takes the ball on his chest and Martin Foyle has done it.
Eleven minutes of this tie remaining, it's far from dead, Martin Foyle's second goal of the game, Steve McLaren ..
Yes welcome to Talking Sport, good evening, tonight's headlines; a disappointing result at the Manor as Oxford United outplay Charlton, especially in the first half, but concede a goal late on to finish as a one all draw, and they drop to eighteenth in the table.
Elsewhere, several games are called off, but in those that were played there are wins for Abingdon Town, Bicester, Milton, Headington United beat Thame and Peppard beat Malborough; there's a draw for Witney and defeat for Abingdon United.
All major rugby matches locally were called off today.
More on all those football games in a moment, first the classified results, starting on the local scene.
League division two; Oxford United one, Charlton one; the Beezer Homes League southern division; Witney two, Yate Town two; the Vauxhall League division two south; Abingdon Town three, Horsham nil; the Hellenic League premier division; Bishops Cleve nil, Milton one; Bicester six, Swindon Athletic one; Didcot against Almondsbury, match postponed; Wantage against Shortwood, match postponed; in the Oxfordshire senior cup third round; Easington Sports against Watlington, match postponed; Headington two, Thame nil; Northleigh against Ardley and Oxford City against Carterton, matches postponed; Peppard five, Malborough one; and in the Berks and Bucks Senior Cup second round; Abingdon United nil, Chesham three.
Now for the national classified results, here's Headley Feast.
The F A Cup fourth round, third replay; Leeds United one, Arsenal two; the F A Cup fifth round; Cambridge United four, Sheffield Wednesday nil; Notts County one, Manchester City nil; Portsmouth one, Tottenham Hotspur two; West Ham United one, Crewe Alexandra nil; Barclays League division one; Chelsea nil, Wimbledon nil; Crystal Palace nil, Queens Park Rangers nil; Sunderland one, Nottingham Forest nil; division two; Barnsley against Newcastle United, match postponed; Blackburn Rovers nil, West Bromwich Albion three; Bristol Rovers three, Watford one; Hull City one, Bristol City two; Milwall four, Plymouth Argyll one; Oldham Athletic two, Port Vale nil; Oxford United one, Charlton Athletic one; Wolverhampton Wanderers against Leicester City, score draw; division three; Bolton Wanderers nil, Grimsby Town nil; Bournemouth one, Birmingham City two; Brentford one, Exeter City nil; Chester City against Swansea City, home win; Huddersfield Town one, Preston Northend nil; Leyton Orient against Wigan Athletic, home win; and Mansfield Town versus Rotherham United, no score draw; Stoke City two, Bury two; Tranmere Rovers one, Fulham one; division four; Blackpool two, Doncaster Rovers nil; Carlisle United one, Rochdale one; Darlington against Lincoln City, score draw; Halifax Town against Burnley, late result; Maidstone United against Aldershot, away win; Peterborough United versus Hereford United, home win; Scarborough two, Hartlepool United nil; Scunthorpe United against Wrexham, home win; Walsall three, Chesterfield nil; the Scottish B and Q League premier division; Dunfermline Athletic against Hibernian, no score draw; Heart of Midlothian two, Dundee United one; Rangers two, Motherwell nil; St Mirren against Celtic, match postponed; division one; Breckon City one, Airdrionians one; Clyde against Clydebank, no score draw; Dundee versus Ayr United, score draw; Falkirk nil, Wraith Rovers two; Hamilton Academical against Forfar Athletic, home win; Kilmarnock one, Partick Thistle nil; Morton one, Meadowbank Thistle one; division two; Alloa versus Stenhouse Muir, away win; Berwick Rangers versus Queen of the South, home win; Dumbarton nil, Albion Rovers two; East Fife two, Stirling Albion two; Montrose one, Cowden Beath nil; Queens Park nil, Arbroath nil; Stranraer two, East Stirlingshire nil; the G M Vauxhall Conference; Altringham nine, Merthyr Tydfil two; Barrow four, Barnet two; Cheltenham two, Kettering Town two; Colchester against Runcorn, home win; Fisher versus Kidderminster, no score draw; Slough versus Gateshead, away win; Stafford versus Welling, home win; and Sutton United versus Bath, home win; Telford one, Boston nil, Wycombe Wanderers nil, Macclesfield nil; Yeovil one, Northwich one; the Vauxhall League premier division; St Albans against Carshalton, away win; Wivenhoe versus Harrow, home win; Woking one, Dagenham nil; and Wokingham nil, Enfield two.
Headley Feast with today's classified football results.
Well, disappointment for Oxford United; Charlton were there for the taking, United let them off the hook.
It had looked too easy at first, but the goals wouldn't come, and in the end the match finished one goal apiece; our reporter at the game, Nick Harris.
A disappointing result for United who totally dominated the first half and really after seeing that first forty five minutes, it was so difficult to see how they could not win three points, and this encounter against the Charlton side drew on the same number of points as them in the second division table.
In that first half, they totally dominated the proceedings with the mid-field trio of Jim Magilton, Les Phillips and Mickey Lewis running the show.
But they only had one goal to show for all that effort, that came on the half an hour from top goal scorer Martin Foyle.
Really it was goalkeeper Bob Bolder and central defender Alan Kernigan against United.
The second half turned into a very different story as Charlton packed the mid-field, although United had their chances to put the game well beyond their reach until the eighty first minute when the impressive Robert Lee slipped the ball past Ken Vasey to give Charlton a point they really didn't deserve.
United started off like express trains despite that too  weak lay off, in the second minute, Martin Foyle broke clear into the box on the left side, and from a tight angle goalkeeper Bob Bolder blocked the ball with his feet; a minute later, Les Phillips' shot was diverted over the crossbar by the foot of Alan Kernigan.
Kernigan on loan from Middlesbrugh to Charlton at the moment after his display especially under the siege in the first half, surely they'll want to sign him.
From the resulting corner, Paul Simpson's corner, Andy Melville flicked the ball on at the near post, Martin Foyle's header hit the under side of the bar and bounced away.
Two minutes later, Kernigan again, when he kicked Simpson's cross over his own crossbar.
United still piling men forward winning everything in mid-field, and in the sixteenth minute Les Phillips clearing the box, he tried to square the ball back, but a great scramble ensued in the Charlton goalmouth, goalkeeper Bolder was injured, he recovered and the ball was eventually hacked away.
Four minutes later United's best move of the half involving four players; eventually the ball laid out to Simpson down the left, the cross came in, it fell to Lee Nogan off Jim Magilton, but from some five yards out, somehow Bolder got his hands to Nogan's shot and the chance had gone.
Seven minutes later Simpson's free kick hit the post, it went over the Charlton wall, hit the post with Bolder beaten, and again the chance had gone, but at last on the half an hour United took the lead; yet another corner, again from the right side.
Goalkeeper Bolder off his line, punched away only to Andy Melville on the edge of the penalty area; Melville ran forward after picking up the loose ball, hammered it forward, Martin Foyle getting the last touch of the ball into the corner of the net, and United now seemingly pushing forward towards three points.
It was Bolder again before half time, making a tremendous save to deny a Simpson shot and then three minutes before half time, his best save of the game; somehow he kicked  kneed Nogan's shot away from five yards after more good work by United down the left side.
Well Charlton had to improve in the second half, and they did; they got more men into mid-field, and United began to run out of a little bit of steam.
Five minutes into the half, Charlton's  corner of the game and Robert Lee volleyed the ball high over the crossbar.
Four minutes later Carl Leven's header went over the bar with a cross coming in from the left, Charlton going in confidence, although United had the chances to put the game well beyond their reach.
In the fifty ninth minute Martin Foyle was clear on the edge of the penalty area after Kernigan slipped, but his lob was comfortably held by Bolder.
Seven minutes later, Foyle clear again, this time down the right, he squared the ball back but no United players could get to the ball and Charlton cleared.
In the seventy seventh minute another great save by Bolder; Magilton took a free kick from the left, Steve Foster got his head to the ball, it appeared to be heading to the far corner of the net, but Bolder somehow dived away to his left and forced the ball away.
And as so often happens in these situations, with United on top for so, so long, it was Charlton on the breakaway who scored that vital equaliser with just nine minutes remaining.
The ball was slipped through to Robert Lee, he held off the challenge of goalkeeper Ken Vasey, and from seven yards, hammered the ball into the net.
United had one more chance six minutes before the end when Martin Foyle did well to turn on the ball; in the edge of the penalty area he hit a shot low and hard towards the corner of the net but it just drifted wide of the far post and United's chance had gone.
As I said, at half time, you couldn't believe Oxford United weren't going to get three points out of this game, but they didn't, and now they have to fight on.
A disappointing result then up at the Manor; Oxford United one, Charlton Athletic one.
Nick Harris reporting, and of course we'll be going back to the Manor ground shortly and catching up hopefully with Nick Harris and some of Oxford United players.
Well that's moved United one place down the table, they do get an extra point of course for today, they move on to thirty two points.
But West Brom had a very good win this afternoon, they went to Blackburn and won three nil, so West Brom have leap frogged over both Oxford and Charlton; they're now in sixteenth place and Charlton drop to seventeenth, Oxford United to eighteenth with thirty two points.
In fact bottom clubs didn't do too well at all this afternoon, let's look at them; Hull were at the bottom, they lost, Watford also lost, Portsmouth didn't play, Plymouth lost, Leicester didn't play and Blackburn lost, so of the bottom six teams, not a single side won.
So, it's thirty three points, Port Vale and West Brom, thirty two points, Charlton and Oxford, thirty points, Blackburn and Leicester, twenty nine, Plymouth and Portsmouth, twenty five Watford and twenty five Hull.
Well we're still waiting to go back to the Manor Ground and catch up with Nick Harris.
Just look at some of the details of other matches that were played today; Oxford United  Abingdon United, I'm sorry, Abingdon United nil, Chesham three; that's in the Berks and Bucks Senior Cup second round; goals for Chesham after eight minutes, that was Mickey Bampton, twenty five minutes Mark Dauber and eighty minutes Byron Walton scoring for Chesham; so Abingdon United nil, Chesham three.
And in the Oxon Senior Cup third round; Peppard five, Malborough one — Peppard's goals; after ten minutes, Sid Grover, fifteen minutes, Chris Maxted, twenty five minutes, Dave Smith, seventy five minutes, Dave Smith getting a second goal, eighty minutes, Kevin Watkins and Malborough's only goal coming in the second half through Darrell Simpson; so Peppard who do so well in the Oxford Senior Cup, Peppard five, Malborough one.
Well we did have one good result locally; nice to see Abingdon Town back on the winning trail again; Vauxhall League division two south that was, Abingdon Town three, Horsham nil, our reporter, Nick Quayle.
After two successive League defeats, Abingdon Town made it third time lucky today with an emphatic three nil win over Horsham here at the Culham Road.
Two excellent goals from Steve Aries added to an early strike from Liam Herbert to put Town back on the winning trail.
Horsham soon found themselves a goal behind as Abingdon made a tremendous start; Town won a corner on the left wing in the second minute and Keith Appleton killed the ball into the area.
Liam Herbert, one of the shortest players on the pitch, rose above the defenders and placed a fine header past keeper Duncan Green to make it one nil.
The visitors might have replied almost immediately when Mark Stepney rounded the defence but put his shot wide.
As the game settled down, both sides struggled to get out of mid-field on a very heavy pitch, and clear chances were few and far between.
Worse was to come though for Horsham as following a fifty fifty challenge on the edge of the Abingdon area, striker Paul Walker injured himself and had to be stretchered off.
In the twenty seventh minute, Abingdon scored their second when Darren Hickey played an excellent ball through to Aries and Aries lobbed it over the advancing keeper into the back of the net with Kevin Connelly following up to make certain.
Horsham were unable to find a way past the Town defence however much they tried and really looked out of their depth against a slick professional erm Town side.
After the break, Abingdon continued to force Horsham back, although now the pitch was beginning to make an impression on some tired legs; there were mistakes from both sides and also some heavy tackles which resulted in long delays whilst players received attention.
Connelly deserved more reward for his efforts as he ceaselessly pushed forward and played some excellent one twos with the front runners, but it was not until the seventy ninth minute that Abingdon sealed the result; Herbert crossed from the right wing and Aries won a challenge in the air to get a glancing header which Green turned on to the post, but the ball rebounded over the line to make it three nil.
So another three points which keeps Town on the top of division two south and helps to maintain the pressure on the clubs below them; final score, Abingdon Town three, Horsham nil.
Nick Quayle reporting and nice to see Abingdon Town back in good form; Town three, Horsham nil, that's in the division two south of the Vauxhall League.
Back to the Manor Ground, we'll join Nick Harris I think talking to Paul Simpson.
That's right Peter, Paul Simpson with us; man of the match, got his bottle of champagne, but erm not too many celebrations really tonight Paul?
No I don't think so, everybody's disappointed, especially after the way we played in the first half, but erm on our second half performance, I suppose we can just count ourselves lucky we come away with a point.
I mean looking at the game you just couldn't believe United would only get a point out of it erm when you went in at half time only one nil up, you so dominated the game I don't think Charlton had a chance did they?
That's right, I don't think they did have a chance first half and we created maybe eight or nine chances, you know, really good clear chances and really we need to be putting more that one away and we need to kill the game off first half when we're so superior in that sort of performance, you know.
But erm we went into half time, and we were very pleased with the way things had gone, and it was just a case of trying to keep it going erm we stopped them from playing erm and then we came off the second half and everything just seemed to go wrong for us.
We couldn't get it forward properly, we couldn't pass to each other and they had  I think they still only had one chance second half and managed to squeeze it in to get a point.
The keeper had an inspired first half didn't he, Bob Bolder, and I thought the number six, Kernigan as well, I believe he's on loan from Middlesbrough; the two of them, really between you and a really big defeat.
That's right, yes I mean, the goalkeeper was fantastic first half, and really we only had one chance second half, and he made a great save from Fossey. erm First half, it was a case of just throwing himself into the right area and the ball was hitting his body and you know, he was just a good example of how to be a good goalkeeper.
And of course the woodwork's what saved them twice; erm Martin Foyle's header hit the underside of the bar then your free kick, when he was actually beaten, of course hit the post.
Well my free kick, he actually got a touch on that as well, he tipped it onto the post for the free kick yes, but I mean even when he bounced out to Mickey Lewis, one of their defenders got a great block from about two yards out to send it out for the corner, which luckily we scored from the corner, so that we got away with it then.
We sit up here and we watch a game like that and we can see the game probably just drifting away from United a little bit; you can feel that things are changing out there.
Does it feel like that down on the field, do you really start to feel frustrated?
erm Oh definitely yes, I mean when we're trying to play passes over the top of their defence and they're getting cut or they're going straight through to the goalkeeper, it's very frustrating for us, but really it's just a case of plugging away and trying to get things to come right.
And unfortunately second half it didn't come right but as I say we've got a point out of it so we still you know, kept ourselves unbeaten for a game or two, so we've just got to try keep it going and take it from there.
And as you said, really some of the football played in the first half was quite delightful wasn't it?
That's right, we defended very well, we  what we tried to do continued from the Oldham game was stop their back four playing.
And we did it first half, and when we were in possession, we were winning it in their sort of last third of the field, and that was giving us a great chance to create scoring chances and that's what we've done again today which has worked very well.
And finally, a lot of games coming up, a lot of midweek games, so plenty of chance for United to erm continue to climb the table, although three points against the side on equal points really would have been a great bonus wouldn't it?
Oh yes, we definitely needed the three points today, you know, before the game we were looking to get three points erm to get one out of it we are disappointed, but as I say, the way we've played second half, we've just got to take a bit of heart from the fact that we didn't get beat.
Paul, thanks very much, enjoy the champagne and let's hope erm back to winning ways, what, against Bristol next Saturday?
Yes hopefully yes, we need to get three points, and we've got to get ourselves up a little bit further up the table and you know, get the pressure off us a bit.
Paul, thanks very much.
Okay, thank you.
That's Nick Harris talking to Paul Simpson.
Remarkably United haven't lost to Charlton in their last eleven meetings; today's draw means they've drawn six of them and won five of them, but for eleven meetings, United have not lost to Charlton.
How they could have done with a win this afternoon.
Well, a side which did win and won well; Bicester against Swindon Athletic in the Hellenic League premier division; Bicester six, Swindon Athletic one, to tell us about it, Charlie Rawling.
Swindon having been beaten in the League Cup recently by Bicester, erm looked as though they were going to make a real match of it today when they scored in the eleventh minute.
erm But they were disappointed when John Thorn equalised after another five minutes and he put them ahead at half time by two one.
In the second half, the play was very even erm Barry Cooper away on the left, he slipped the ball to Jason Allen who scored number three, Leach had to save a high shot from Nigel Chambers who then conceded a corner doing so, the nearest as they came to scoring, and looked down just at that stage.
Mark Edrich should have scored when they put through by Cooper, and Cooper made it four one a minute later.
And another individual goal; in the sixty fifth minute, he also made an opening for erm Jason Allen erm and Mark Hurtling to score the fifth and Mark Hurtling came along with the sixth.
And it was Bicester Town six, their highest score of the season, as far as their home matches are concerned, and Swindon Athletic one.
There we are, there's Charlie Rawlings on a good win for Bicester; Bicester six, Swindon Athletic one.
A good fight back for Witney today in the southern division of the Beezer Homes League; they were two goals down at home to Yate Town, but the match finished Witney two, Yate Town two, our reporter, Adrian Burcher.
Witney Town turned in an excellent performance to come back from a two goal deficit to snatch a point against mid-table Yate.
On a difficult pitch Witney played some very attractive football, and with a little more luck could have finished the game off in the first half.
On sixteen minutes, Liam Cowell hit a good ball with the outside of the foot down the line to Steve Jenkins, Jenkins crossed and his cross was met by Julio Berazi, but Terry Stevenson made a great one-handed save to push his effort on to the bar, Kenny Clark followed up but was inches wide with his shot.
Four minutes later Darren Tilly wasted a good effort for Yate when he shot weakly at Warner after evading five tackles.
On thirty one minutes, Dave Warner made a fine one-handed save to tip over Richard Thompson's point blank header following Martin Tilley's corner.
Warner was in action again four minutes later; Terry Stevenson's big drop kick was picked up by Kevin Thaws, he shook off the attentions of Mark Walton, but Warner spread himself superbly at his feet to block on the edge of the box.
Five minutes before the interval, Witney wasted a glorious chance to go in front.
The ball was worked out wide on the left to Mark Walton who hit in a point blank cross to the head of Steve Jenkins, only for the striker to direct his header against the post with a goal gaping.
The second half continued in the same exciting pattern as the first, but for all Witney's pressure, it was Yate who took the lead.
With the second half only four minutes old, Darren Tilly wriggled into the box and squared for Thaws who hit a low drive past Warner.
Eleven minutes later, Yate had added a second; Darren Tilly's corner was headed clear but only back to the same player who returned the ball to the far post and Danny Iddles headed home.
From this point, Witney knuckled down in search of the equaliser and began to get back on top of the game, and eventually on sixty nine minutes reduced the arrears.
Steve Jenkins pushed the ball past Steve Winters, then chipped exquisitely to the unmarked Julio Berazi who coolly controlled the ball and drilled home.
All Witney's hard work was rewarded six minutes from time; Mark Walton done brilliantly to keep the ball in play the slipped the ball back to Paul Lewis who crossed first time, and there was Steve Jenkins to head home and snatch a well-deserved point.
The score once again from Marriot's Close; Witney Town two, Yate Town two.
Adrian Burcher our reporter.
Moving down to the Hellenic League the premier division, another win for Milton; Bishops Cleve nil, Milton one, our reporter, David Taylor.
Yes, Milton manager, Keith Stock celebrated yet another birthday yesterday, and his team gave him something to celebrate with three points at Basement Club, Bishops Cleve this afternoon to see United extend their unbeaten record which stretches back to last October.
But it wasn't easy in this top against bottom clash as the home side fought for every ball on the rather energy sapping surface which was only made playable some forty eight hours beforehand.
In fact, Milton's skipper, Paul Storey hacked the ball off his own line in twelve minutes as Bishops looked for an early goal.
After twenty five minutes Milton's centre half, Wayne Morton took a bad knock which left him with a chest injury, and this resulted in him being substituted late in the second half.
Milton's top goal scorer, Nigel Mott was now settling down and causing the lanky Bob Styman problems at the back for Bishops Cleve with his probing runs down the right.
But it was Bishops Cleve who went close to scoring on the half an hour as Cliff Powell on his debut ran through, his shot was parried by Paul Whittington in the Milton goal, and the Milton defence cleared the ball from the danger area as Mark Gill was on hand for Bishops to pounce on any mistakes made.
But on forty one minutes it was Milton who took the lead as new signee from A E R Harwell, Robbie Munn, was on hand to slide the ball home from close range as Matt Utteridge in the Bishops' goal could only palm away Nigel Mott's probing cross to send Milton in at the interval leading by a goal to nil.
Two minutes into the second half, Nigel Mott repeated his move and his cross shot which brought a goal in the first half, but the ball ran just wide.
Bishops then turned up the pressure in a search for an equaliser, and it nearly came on seventy minutes as yet another debut man, Tommy Callanan blasted the ball against the underside of the ball from literally yards out when it was easier to score.
The ball cannoned away to safety for Milton.
Six minutes later Cliff Powell also went close but Paul Whittington did well to tip the ball over.
The final twenty minutes saw play confined to the middle third of the pitch as both linesmen became rather flag happy with a succession of offside decisions which infuriated players and crowd alike.
And with seven and a half minutes of injury time Milton hung on to their slender lead; final score here at Bishops Cleve was Bishops Cleve nil, Milton United one.
David Taylor reporting.
You're listening to B B C Radio Oxford and Talking Sport, twenty six minutes past five it is; we're going to change sports now and have a little chat about speedway, because one or two things have happened nationally and locally on the speedway scene.
Joining us on the phones is the Oxford Cheetah's promoter, Bernard Crapper.
Bernard, you've been to a lot of meetings since we last talked to you, what's been happening in the speedway world?
Well of course there's been the erm joining of the two Leagues back to where they should have been, you know this silly split that was erm  arose over the last couple of years has been put to bed now and sorted out.
And we've increased the old British League by four, and equalled the two Leagues out, so we should see erm quite some interesting speedway this year.
And I think the Cheetahs are very much in favour of all this aren't they?
Yes, we weren't too happy with the point situation because we considered it went too low, but having said that, now that it's been democratically voted in, we are one hundred per cent in obeyance with it and we are going to go along with it.
As always Bernard, at the end of each season or at the beginning of a new season, one or two clubs go by the by; we've lost a couple this year haven't we?
Well we have yes, but some of those that have gone seem to be clawing their way back at the last minute erm Longeaton look to be saved again at very last knockings erm so of course Eastbourne has gone.
Stoke's been saved so erm hopefully everything's sort of a lot better than it was sort of ten days ago.
So Longeaton has been saved, I thought that one had gone.
Well, it did go erm but Tony Mould who in actual fact is the promoter at erm Wolverhampton with Chris van Stratten, has gone into Longeaton. erm So we can only hope that he can do the job and keep them there.
But he has agreed in principle to take the club over.
Well let's talk about the Cheetahs for a moment.
You've got six of your riders now, the seventh one will be a two point reserve; your latest one is Tony Primmer, tell us about Tony.
Well Tony Primmer's an Australian and has been riding at Eastbourne and we were looking at him prior to this erm sort of amalgamation that came in because erm with our friendship with Bob Dugard, and looking for younger riders, he was sort of earmarked to come here at some stage.
But not this year, but because we found ourselves in a very embarrassing situation with the forty point limit and the fact that we've got Hans Nielson on ten point three two which you know, is good in one respect, but it erm makes very difficult situations down the bottom end.
erm We had to look for some lower riders and erm Tony Primmer of course comes in at four, which helps us immensely.
It means you've got three Australians in the side doesn't it?
It's the Oxford Cheetahs Australian Select Team now.
I've always tried to keep too clear of foreign riders as you well know, but erm there aren't the riders around that you can slip in erm of the sort that we would want to put in.
And as I've said before, you know, we've talked a lot about Primmer with Bob Dugard erm so we went for him.
Bernard I must tell you, listening to you at the moment is Simon Wigg on one of our other lines erm just a word about Simon before I bring him in.
You're obviously sad to lose him but really, he's one of these people riding all round the country who's suffered because of the forty point limit.
Absolutely, you see the sad thing is that Simon has a seven point five five average erm we sort of balance that out, you know, erm Simon to go and bring in a six point National League boy — it's not a clever situation at all in my book, but then the rules are the rules and we have to go along with it.
What a lot of the people don't realise, our League winning side of nineteen eighty six, up until we sold Cox a week ago, the whole team was on the table for sale or to borrow, the complete team.
That's how, you know, stupid it is that we've got all these talented riders and we can't use any of them.
What about Simon — erm will he go, on sale or on loan, or what, or don't you mind?
Well that depends on the club that he goes to, I mean if the club can afford to buy him erm I always think it's better on the long term policy, that a rider actually rides for a club is owned by that club.
I don't think any rider, with hand on heart, is happy about a loan situation, he likes to feel part of the set up.
If a club comes along and offers us the right money for Simon, then so be it, but at the end of the day erm we'd like Simon on our books.
Well don't go away Bernard, let's bring in Simon.
Simon, you've heard what Bernard said — any news on where you're going to ride this year?
erm Afternoon Peter erm hello Bernard.
erm Nothing at all really at the moment, erm obviously it's early days yet as far as erm speedway goes, I mean you'd imagine it sort of getting a bit late in the day really, to get things organised.
But it seems to sort of get later and later every year, so there's no big panic, I mean it's still erm you know, a month and a half away or a month from the start of the season so erm you know, there's plenty of time yet.
Do you think teams are waiting for you to prove your fitness?
No, I think it's just that   it just seems to be like this every year now Peter, that everybody tends to erm wait until the last minute.
Maybe they think they can get the riders a bit cheaper or, you know, some of the boys might be panicking about a team spot somewhere but erm you know, I think it's just the way that erm the way the world's going at the moment and erm you know, I'm certainly not erm too worried about erm you know, things at the moment really.
I think you had a little bit of a soft spot for Poole didn't you, and you'd have quite liked to have gone there and a little bit perhaps disappointed when you heard that they'd picked up Marvin Cox?
Well not disappointed that they'd picked up Marvin Cox because obviously they're going to need a very strong side if they're going to win anything so erm you know, with guys like Marvin around, then it's got to be a good idea, you know, they've obviously made a big jump there to grab someone they think's going to make a difference.
erm What I've  I've had a look at their team on paper, and erm they're not strong enough and erm you know, they need more than Marvin at the moment; they need two or three good blokes, they're a bit too sort of erm balanced really, you know, they haven't got any big fire power, so erm you know, I think they're in a bit of a spot down there, even though they probably think they're not.
Just a word about your fitness Simon, last time we saw you, your neck was hanging off virtually, is it all back together again, you're rebuilt?
All back together again yes, I've got to go into hospital on erm well, tomorrow actually for erm another operation erm that's to have a plate taken out of erm the collar bone which I broke in the middle of last season.
But erm the doctors have told me really I can do whatever I want to straight away virtually you know, and erm I'll just give it another week or two weeks before I start practising erm and you know, I'm very fit now.
I've actually never been as fit in my life before, I've been erm you know, down the gym training erm every day and erm really sort of putting some hard work in and erm you know, I'm in great shape.
So erm I'm looking forward to this season much more than I have for a long time, so I can't wait, wherever I end up, we'll have to see, but erm I'm looking forward to it anyway.
Yes, as you say, wherever you end up, whatever happens, I presume your long track will go ahead as usual?
Oh crikey yes?
Obviously you know, I'd love to erm try and win that erm  win that again erm and also the grass track racing which is extremely important to me, but erm being world speedway champion is erm for me the number one now you know, I've really erm the long track scene virtually can look after itself without having to worry too much about the planning and everything.
We've got a very good set up erm my mechanic Mick Day is coming back again tomorrow; I'm picking him up from the airport, so that'll be three years with him and erm I can rely on him to sort of get things ready and erm you know, we've got a great set up and really I can just concentrate on trying to be erm world speedway champion this year.
That's obviously the main important thing for me and erm you know, that's what all the effort's going to be going in to.
Well we wish you luck obviously Simon in all your efforts this year, we hope to see you at the Oxford Stadium at some stage, and hope it goes well for you.
Thanks very much Pete — bye then.
That's Simon Wigg.
I'll just let Bernard have the last word, because I want to talk to you Bernard just about who's going to win the British League this year.
=
Or League  division number one I ought to say.
Division one.
Division one.
Yes, well obviously we erm we hope that we've put the team together that's going to do the job, but having said that, there's some handy looking teams around, I think the League is going to be pretty evened out erm at the end of the day, I don't think erm you're going to see too many people sort of struggling at the bottom end.
erm I go along with what erm Simon said about Paul, I'm  I thought at one time that they would go for Cox and him, to be perfectly honest, he's absolutely right on what he said, and I'm sure they're relying on the fact that I believe Paul is going to be a home track and they're going to pick a lot points up at home.
I honestly believe that because they're certainly not strong enough erm to be up with the top boys, well they're not going to disgrace themselves having said that, as I said before, the League's pretty well evened out, but I think they'll be at the lower part rather than the top part.
Right so we can have a few trophies at Oxford this season anyway Bernard.
Well I hope so.
Right and how many times, I must ask you finally, how many times will you be fined by the referees this year, you claimed a nil sheet last year, remarkably 
Absolutely a nil sheet yes, I have no trouble with the referees, in fact at our conference erm when they talked about referees, I put forward that erm there should be a vote of thanks for the referees, because at long last some of them are listening.
And I don't mean I'm bending them, but there were some, as I've said many times, a lot of silly people refereeing in speedway, and thank goodness now, ninety nine per cent of them are being sensible and we're seeing some good refereeing.
I mean you'll always erm get some controversy somewhere, but having said that, the referees were much much better this last year.
Bernard Crapper thank you very much.
I'll put my money that you will get fined at least once this year.
Bet I don't.
Bernard Crapper who's the co-promoter of the Oxford Cheetahs.
Right let's catch up with what's been happening nationally on the football scene, and join Headley Feast.
Yes in the F A Cup fourth round third replay between Leeds United and Arsenal at Elland Road, it was the visitors who took a two goal lead in the first half.
Arsenal needed just seventeen minutes for Merson to break the deadlock, two minutes before the break, Dixon made it two nil.
In the second half Leeds came roaring back, possibly looking for another replay because Chapman scored for the Yorkshire side after sixty nine minutes, but Arsenal held firm and they visit Shrewsbury in round five.
Ron Atkinson's Sheffield Wednesday received a nasty shock away to Cambridge United in their fifth round tie, United going in front after eighteen minutes through Dublin, and Wednesday were to receive another rude shock seven minutes after the break when Philpot made it two nil.
To add insult to injury, Taylor scored a third for Cambridge twelve minutes from time and then seconds from the final whistle Dublin scored a fourth for Cambridge United.
Tottenham Hotspur who put Oxford United out of the F A Cup in the fourth round, found life difficult at Fratton Park where Portsmouth forgot their disappointing League form and led Spurs by a Chamberlain goal after forty one minutes, but Gascoigne who tormented Oxford in the last round, equalised for Spurs in the sixty second minutes, and seven minutes from time, that man Gascoigne popped up with a winner.
Third division Crew Alexandra held high flying West Ham of the second to a goal-less first half at Upton Park, but after seventy one minutes the Hammers took the lead through Quinn and although Crewe fought well, their long F A Cup adventure was over.
Notts County and Manchester City failed to make a vital breakthrough during the first half of their tie, it was not until the ninetieth minute that Notts County of the second beat Manchester City with a goal from Lund.
In the first division, Sunderland took a thirty ninth minute lead at home to Nottingham Forest; Gabbiadini the scorer, and Gabbiadini's first goal in three months was enough to send the Roker fans away in a happy mood to celebrate their third successive home win.
Chelsea entertained Wimbledon at Stamford Bridge, but neither side managed to find the net, and they finished with a point apiece.
Chelsea looked the better side, but generally it was a miserable affair.
And finally the other  all London game between Crystal Palace and Queens Park Rangers ended without goals and with very few chances to either side.
Headley Feast reporting.
And we're staying with football now, we've got one more match report to give you; the Oxfordshire Senior Cup third round, most of those matches were called off, but one which did survive was Headington against Thame, and a good result for Headington; they won by two goals to nil.
Here's Steve Giles.
Headington Amateurs were good value for their two nil victory over Thame at Barton, which now sets up a quarter final tie at Witney.
Amateurs adapted to the muddy conditions better than the visitors and dominated the game from the start.
In the thirtieth minute, Gary Weaving scored what looked like a perfectly good goal, only for the linesman to rule it out for offside, to everyone's dismay.
Some Headington defending by Thame then let Declan Cuddy in, but his shot hit the crossbar with Mayhew beaten.
In the second half, Thame came more in to the game and created a couple of chances, however in the sixty fifth minute, Sean Liden won the ball on the halfway line, his long ball found Gary Weaving who turned and placed a low shot past Mayhew to make it one nil.
Five minutes later, Thame centre half, Edwards, was dismissed from the field for aiming a punch at Tony Penge; this made Thame's task even harder especially when Penge scored two minutes later from close range to make it two nil.
Thame's Russell was then dismissed for dissent taking them down to nine men, from which there was no way back and Headington ran out comfortable winners.
That's Headington Amateurs two, Thame United nil.
So, it's Headington Amateurs who go into the next round of the Oxfordshire Senior Cup, that's the fourth round.
Well we've talked football, we've talked speedway, we're now going to talk rugby, because if you've been following the exploits of the Bicester Rugby Club, you'll know they got through to the semi-finals of a big national competition, and they play that semi-final this coming Saturday.
They're playing down at Marlow and skippering Bicester I hope will be Simon Greater, welcome Simon.
Good evening.
Are you fit again because I know you've had a little bit of shoulder trouble I think isn't it?
Oh yes, that's erm long gone, yes, no problem with the shoulder.
Now you've got through to the semi-final, I always forget the title of it — it's the Provincial Insurance Cup?
That's right yes.
And who are you playing in the semis?
A team called Old Redonians from Surrey.
Have you done your homework on them?
Well, unfortunately erm we were trying to erm get down to see them, but of course erm with the weather, how it's been, it's erm been virtually impossible to see any games, let alone erm go and see them.
Do you know anything about them at all, their form and what sort of leagues they play in?
erm We know they play in erm I think it's Surrey three, or Surrey two, erm I'm not sure which one it is actually, because they've just revamped their leagues.
erm Don't really know much about them at all erm they are an old boys side erm but erm we really don't know too much about them.
erm And I think erm we've got to obviously give them as much respect as possible, because for them to reach the semi-final, the same as us erm they obviously erm have got some useful players.
That's been very much the case hasn't it, in previous rounds is you haven't known very much about any of the opposition so far?
That's right, especially the later rounds because erm you get to play sides that you would never normally you know, even erm hear of, erm let alone play.
So, yes, it's a little bit sort of shots in the dark really when you come to play them, but erm it's fifteen men against fifteen other men and erm hopefully, erm we can erm pull it off next week and get to Twickenham.
We'll just have a talk about the Bicester side, are you going to be at full strength?
Yes, yes, we will be at full strength.
Selection erm hasn't been erm finalised yet, but erm we will probably do that erm tomorrow, or latest, Monday.
Well presumably you haven't played at all in the last couple of weeks, so it's  so you're feeling perhaps a little bit rusty about it all?
erm Rusty in the fact that erm we haven't been able to sort of erm get out on the field with a ball in our hand, erm but erm our coach erm Ian McMillan has taken the opportunity to drag us into the gym and give us quite erm hard fitness sessions, so the fitness is still erm quite high on our side, but erm handling the ball will be a little bit rusty, but hopefully this week, now all the snow's gone, we'll be able to get out and erm move the ball about at training.
There was a slight match at Twickenham this afternoon; England against Scotland 
Oh was there, oh I did see that yes 
Were you watching it and wishing?
I certainly was, I was watching that and thinking ‘well, don't cut it up too much lads, because hopefully we'll be there.
erm But yes, that was not a bad victory for England.
It's remarkable because we've been talking about Twickenham to you ever since I think about the second round, and in those days it just seemed a little bit of a dream, but that dream is now just eighty minutes away isn't it?
Yes, so people keep telling me .
erm It's eighty minutes, it's  that eighty minutes is a very hard game obviously erm and they will be thinking exactly the same.
erm But it is  the dream has become  it's very close to becoming reality now.
Now, next week; Old Redonians it is — down at Marlow?
Yes.
Two thirty kick off?
erm It's a two thirty kick off yes, erm we've been informed that erm that the  it will cost people two pound to enter erm where that two pound is going to go, I don't know.
erm But erm hopefully we'll be taking three coach loads down erm we've booked three coaches and erm a lot of cars and a lot of supporters, not only from the club but erm from around the county.
Well we wish you luck, I'm sure the whole of Bicester will emigrate down to Marlow next Saturday.
Good luck Simon and I hope you make it to tread on the hallowed turf.
Sorry?
I hope you make it to tread on the hallowed turf.
Thank you very much 
Simon 
I hope we do.
Good luck to you.
Simon Greater, the captain of the Bicester team, going to play Old Redonians next Saturday.
Well let's catch up with the latest from the Manor ground, I think Nick Harris is back in the press box now.
Nick — you've only managed to talk to Paul Simpson, I think everybody's gone and hidden themselves.
yes and everybody not too happy as you can probably imagine erm Peter erm while we were talking to Paul Simpson, in fact Brian Horton was holding his press conference and I think he said the same as everybody else; ‘Bolder the opposition goalkeeper had an inspired game, but really United had the chances and the possession, and really everything to kill Charlton off long before half time and really put no pressure on themselves in the second half.’
So erm yes I think everybody's very very disappointed as I think we probably heard with Paul Simpson because United certainly in my books, played some of the best football I've seen them play since they've been back in the second division in the erm first half, but really did let things slip away a little bit in the second.
They used up all their goals against Oldham didn't they, two weeks ago when they didn't force any corners at all in the match; scored five goals nevertheless.
Today, had lots of corners, scored actually from a corner, or after a corner but couldn't make their possession tell.
That's right erm and of course and they didn't have that little bit of luck perhaps.
I wouldn't say they were lucky against Oldham, but everything ran for them today, the underside of the crossbar and the post saved Charlton on a couple of occasions and as Simpson said I think ‘Bolder on a couple of occasions really knew nothing about the saves he'd made, they were point blank, and he just happened to be there.’
But that's the way the game goes and erm I think as we said ‘as the game went on, you always had the feeling that in fact Charlton, although they had very little pressure, would sneak a goal,’ and of course that's exactly what they did.
Just a word about the Oxford goal; I saw that, I saw erm Andy Melville score it, I was most surprised to hear it overruled at half time.
The word came from the dressing room that it was Martin Foyle; I saw Andy Melville kick it into the net — what didn't I see?
Alright, what you didn't see, and I've talked to the man who made the video, and he tells me that in fact — as played in slow motion, it does definitely show that Martin Foyle as the ball was going goalward, got the final touch to the ball and did put it into the net, no doubt that in fact it was Foyle's goal.
So Foyle retains the number four shirt for next week?
That's right, playing at number four and scoring every week, he must be erm very happy indeed.
Nick that does mean two draws now with Charlton this season; three all away, one all here at the Manor this afternoon, and really not much between the two teams is there?
I wouldn't say there was much between the two teams apart from the first half here this afternoon when United, I haven't seen United dominate a side so much for a very long time, and really, I mean you were here Peter, three or four nil at half time would not have been a bad reflection on United's performance in any way at all.
To think two weeks ago they were three nil up at half time against Oldham and they're only one nil up against Charlton and they totally dominated the game.
Ken Vasey didn't have to make a save in the first half, didn't really have to  didn't give Charlton a chance, and even in the second half when Charlton came forward more and more, they didn't really have any chances erm one that Lee volleyed over the bar, one that was headed over the crossbar, and the chance that went in the net, so they still didn't have many  chances, but erm United somehow erm construed to drop two points, and erm yes, dreadfully disappointing.
And just a word about the goal scorers; Martin Foyle got the goal today, that makes him  well he was leading goal scorer, he goes slightly further ahead.
But none of the Oxford goal scorers are actually in the national charts, but we were saying it's because so many of them are scoring, Foyle, Magilton, Nogan, Simpson and Stein — all have scored seven or more.
That's right, and I think that's very important with a side, and of course John Durning now, finished his suspension, so he'll be raring to get back in the side.
No, I mean, today okay only one goal against Charlton, tremendous performance by Bolder, the post and the bar, but Oxford United do score goals and they took great chances to score goals erm it's difficult today isn't it.
erm They gave away one goal, but erm that so often happens in that sort of situation, but no, people can score goals erm from anywhere from Oxford United and Jim Magilton was singled out in particular, I mean he's been with the side since October and scored nine goals from mid-field, that really is a tremendous performance.
Well Nick I think you did enjoy the game but it was two points lost rather than one point gained.
Oh, now doubt about that at all Peter yes, and with the sides equal on points, I'm particularly disappointed for United who obviously would have liked to have climbed above Charlton in the table.
And in fact they've gone one place down the table, they've moved down to eighteenth with West Brom having a good win away at Blackburn.
Yes so lots of games for United to play at the moment with the postponements, a lot of mid-week games, a lot of games up here at the Manor, but erm as so often happens with United, after a good performance or a little a good run, they never quite do it at home do they, they never quite kill sides off and they draw in games that they've played very well as they have done today.
They tend perhaps just to lack that real killer instinct and erm it's such a great shame because people might laugh and joke looking at the league table, in fact United, since Christmas, have played some very good football indeed.
Nick Harris, thank you very much 
Thank you 
And just to remind you that Oxford have gone down to eighteenth in the table, they've got thirty two points.
Below them, it's Blackburn and Leicester with thirty, Portsmouth and Plymouth with twenty nine and really the two teams who are looking the favourites for relegation, a reminder of just two go down, Watford and Hull both have twenty five points.
Well for now let's go to another Charlton, soccer legend, Bobby Charlton, you heard him on Richard Rielly's programme this afternoon, he's coming to the area next Wednesday for the press launch of the Bobby Charlton Sports Day, which will be held at the Blackbird Ley's leisure centre on the twenty fourth of April.
Richard Rielly asked him for his views on Graham Kelly's plea for clubs to share grounds if England are to stand a chance of hosting the nineteen ninety eight World Cup finals.
I agree with that, erm I think that the big city clubs will have to eventually start sharing.
It becomes so expensive erm and if we are going to get new facilities erm we can't just keep upgrading what we've got now, we have to build new.
erm And if we are going to compete in world sport then erm  and if we have to apply like Manchester, who's applying for the Olympic Games, we have to have the appropriate stadia.
We're not going to get it by resurrecting the stadia that we've got at the moment; new ones have to be built, and if they're going to be built in the high population areas, you know, then I think it's realistic for the clubs in that particular area to share.
So I think that's a thing of the future, but I hope it's not too far in the future.
One of the problems of course that erm a lot of clubs face is that the grounds were built many years ago 
Yes 
Without the motor car in mind, I mean for instance, we had Oxford, Reading and Swindon it was suggested a few years ago, that they got together and formed the Thames Valley United.
mhm
But that didn't happen 
No 
But the danger of course is that big business takes over, the supermarket chains and the leisure chains and 
mhm 
After all it's only a game, football isn't it?
Yes, that's right.
erm At the moment, well I would have thought that that was really unrealistic you know, the three teams joining together because geographically, they're not really that close.
But erm where the big city teams have good communications, you know, good bus and rail services, you know, then that's  it's realistic to ask them to do it.
erm Unfortunately when you're short of money, you know, you have to try and get it from wherever you can and of course, in lots of cases, the supermarket chains have actually bailed out some football clubs, you know, by buying pieces of the car park etc.
And it's one way that they  that the clubs can get planning permission to expand a little, so I don't knock big business, I think that sponsorship in one form or another is very very important and vital.
We can't just keep asking the people that actually pay to come to the matches to do it all the time, they have to be supplemented from industry anyway.
I mean in Italy for example, you know some of the bigger clubs, you know they're literally run by your Fiats etc., big  very very big companies, and I would say eventually, I'm not saying in the near future, but certainly eventually, that that might happen here.
Big industry will have to take a bigger share of the professional clubs.
Now Bobby, you're coming to join us here in Oxford next week for the press launch for something that's happening in April — tell us about that.
Well British Gas are our main sponsors and we go round the country and we do erm courses, free courses for two hundred youngsters in various parts of mainland Britain, and erm we're coming to Oxford.
erm And I'm very much looking forward to that, on Wednesday I'm coming and we're having a promotions day when we'll let everyone know what we're doing; when it's going to be, where it's going to be held, and erm give two hundred youngsters the opportunity to try erm the various sports, we don't just do football now either, we do lots of other sports.
And British Gas have asked us in the particular area to utilise the facilities that are in the area erm to the best, and give two hundred youngsters the opportunity that they might never have had.
Only one day, but nevertheless it's something that they will always remember and hopefully it will be just a spur for them to go on and do better things.
Now two hundred youngsters, I'm sure a lot of those will be listening this afternoon, the actual day happens on Wednesday April the twenty fourth.
How are you going to select the two hundred out of I'm sure, the many thousand that will apply for a place?
Well I don't select them, I leave that to British Gas.
They do it through the Social Services, erm they do it through the various schools erm they will probably give some places to the media so that they can run competitions which would encompass all the youngsters.
You might not be able to come but at least you can  you may at least have had the opportunity, so erm that's how they're being decided.
Football obviously is the big one, so out of the two hundred you'll probably get something like eighty footballers and then out of the other five sports that we're going to host erm we will split them accordingly.
But football generally speaking has to be the biggest, simply because it is the most popular still.
Well Bobby we look forward to welcoming you to Oxford erm not only next week for the press launch but for the actual day in April.
I look forward to that.
Just finally looking back over a career that spans now five decades, is there anything you'd have done differently over the years?
erm No, no I don't think so, I've erm been a successful  I've been more successful that most and I  it would appear greedy if I erm said that there was something that I think I would have done differently.
No, I would have done it exactly the same, I would have just hoped that I would have been as lucky as I have been.
And that's Bobby Charlton talking to Richard Rielly earlier this afternoon.
You're listening to B B C Radio Oxford and Talking Sport, seven minutes to six, time to wrap up.
Coming up in a little while we'll be talking greyhounds, but for now we'll go back to football and deal with the local classified results with all the local leagues.
League division two; Oxford United one, Charlton one; Beezer Homes League southern division; Witney two, Yate two; the Vauxhall League division two south; Abingdon Town three, Horsham nil; the Oxfordshire Senior Cup third round; Headington two, Thame nil; Peppard five, Malborough one; the Berks and Bucks Senior Cup second round; Abingdon United nil, Chesham three; the Hellenic League premier division; Bishop's Cleve nil, Milton United one; Bicester six, Swindon Athletic one; in division one; Cheltenham Saracens two, Cirencester United nil; Sinderford three, Clanfield one; Cirencester Town nil, Wallingford three; Highworth Town one, Supmarine one; Kidlington one, Wootton Bassett one; the reserve division east; Milton United two, Wantage three; the reserve division west; Swindon Athletic two, Fairford three; and the Gloucestershire Senior Cup south second round; Locklees one, Almondsbury Pixon Reserves two; the Oxon Senior League the Clarendon Cup third round; Yarnton Reserves nil, Garsington Reserves one, after extra time; premier division; Bletchingdon one, Kennington United one; Eynsham five, Oakley United three; Oxford University Press one, A P Sports one; division one; Kennington United Reserves two, A F C Cowley two; division two; Charlton United Reserves one, Oxford Stadium Reserves three; Long Crendon Reserves one, Ardley United Reserves eight; the Oxford City F A Premier Cup semi-final; Northway four, Wheatley nil; the League; Beckley nil, Tetsworth five; the Lord Jersey Football Association, the Jersey Cup second round replay; Akers Athletic one, Middle Barton three; the Derek Allen Cup first round; Heyford United two, Marsh Gibbon one; the mid-Oxon Cup; Bardwell nil, Heyford Athletic two; division two of the League; Marauders Reserves one, Fritwell eleven; and the Supplementary Cup; Crusaders nil, Wootton Reserves three.
On to the Witney and District F A, Senior Challenge Cup second round; Carterton Eagles six, Freeland one; Spartan Rangers eleven, Tackley one; Chadlington five, Alsvcott one; Eynstone four, Carterton A nil; Brize Norton two, Stonesfield nil; Hanborough one, Ducklington two; in the Junior Challenge Cup second round; Crusaders Reserves two, F C Mills Reserves one; the Supplementary Cup second round; Bampton Reserves nil, Witney Royals four; Freeland Reserves one, Burford Reserves nil; Askett United one, Charlbury A nil; and one result from division three; Ducklington Reserves nine, Hanborough A nil; the Banbury and District League, the Basil Taylor Cup first round; Cropredy two, Deddington Town one; the League premier division; Bodicote Sports eight, Adderbury two; and division three; Fenny Compton Reserves nil, Kings Sutton Reserves three; the Chiltonian Football League premier division; Holmer Green four, Finchampstead two; Stocklake three, Wraysbury Coopers nil; the Senior Cup second round; Binfield nil, Letcombe one; division one; Slough Y C O B three, Kodak two; and Reserve division one; Wraysbury Coopers four, Woburn Athletic nil.
And of course all the other matches today in the local leagues were postponed.
Just time to have a little chat about greyhounds with our greyhound man, Mick Weeble; I think you gave us one winner last week didn't you Mick?
Just one Peter yes, but we'll put that down to the going I think, we'll have to put it down to something, so we'll put it down to the going.
What's the going going to be like tonight because all the snow's disappeared and in fact you've been running through the snow anyway.
Yes, the going will be slow tonight but erm not as slow as it has been in the past erm so it should be good.
It's a good card tonight anyway and people may want to get out from the snow and have night out at the stadium.
Are there some dogs who specialise in the slow going as it were, the heavy going?
Yes, there is actually, I mean some of these wide runners who do tend to feel the ground erm when it's top of the ground.
They'd probably be better off on the erm soft going tonight, but erm in the past few results erm it's been evenly balanced Peter, you know, but every trap's won in the last two or three meetings.
So they've got no real advantage, only those that really prefer the underfoot conditions to be soft.
Now I came to watch the greyhound racing, I think it was Tuesday last week with all the snow around.
They're really faithful your greyhound followers aren't they, all your punters as you call them, they come snow, rain, hail, thunder, it doesn't matter.
Well they're some of the best in the land, greyhound punters, I mean they'll come  they like their greyhound racing, real erm diehard people and erm they'll come in any weather, I mean, the other Thursday when we really had a load of snow down, I mean no-one would come, you wouldn't even get off your couch for that, but erm we still had three hundred people attend which was erm  even though as I say, we lost money on the erm meeting.
It's a policy of the stadium, if they come then we'll make the effort to put the racing on for them.
Well you've got the racing on tonight, give us your four winners please.
Right, here we go then.
In the second race which is a sprint race, that's a two bend race, I'm going to go for trap one, Brook Mead Flash trained by Paul Garland. erm Ideal draw trap one, Brook Mead Flash there for me, dangerous Flashing Sabre in five and Super Zoom in trap two.
And then we come to the sixth race which is the eight forty five, well I'm going to go for Angie Baby here in trap three, she's erm a little bit of a kidder but she might have the legs of these, as long as something leads her, she'll come and erm try and do them on the line, so it's Angie Baby for me there, erm Ruby Blue in trap six is a danger.
And then we come to race nine, the third leg of our yankee tonight, Radio Oxford's yankee, that's in the nine thirty two erm here I'm going to go for Kerry Limb Gold in trap six erm this one does like the underfoot conditions to be soft, so he's got it tonight — Kerry Limb Gold then as the third leg of the yankee, nine thirty two.
And in the twelfth race, the six forty five erm West Mead Ricky erm adversely drawn in trap four, but nevertheless I think he's a little bit better class, so that's the fourth leg of our Radio Oxford yankee erm West Mead Ricky, that's the ten twenty.
And erm if anyone's listening Peter, we do need an announcer, you know what we were speaking about on Tuesday, so erm if anybody's interested like, preferably it would suit a female better I think erm they want to contact John Blake on Monday.
Right, Mick Weeble, thank you very much.
Thank you Peter.
Mick Weeble from the greyhound stadium.
Just time to tell you that Ken Clarke won Guess the Scores from Headington; he said it would finish one all at the Manor, and he said that Martin Foyle would get the goal.
We'll be in touch with you Ken.
Thanks for listening to us on Talking Sport this afternoon, we'll all be back again next Saturday, same time, same place.
Coming up next, the news at six.
Yes hello, good evening welcome to Talking Sport.
Tonight's local headlines: a last minute goal gives Oxford United a well deserved one nil win over Portsmouth at the Manor.
The game was set for the second goal-less draw at the ground in four days, when Andy Melville scored following a free kick.
United move three places up the table to fifteenth, and they're now ten points clear of the two relegation positions.
Elsewhere there are wins for Witney, Thame, Didcot and Oxford United Youth team; Carterton beat Banbury; Bicester beat Milton; there's a draw for Abingdon Town; defeats for Oxford United Reserves, Oxford City, Wantage and Headington Amateurs.
Well full details of most of these games coming up over the next hour here on Talking Sport, now though the leading local results: League division two; Oxford United one, Portsmouth nil; the Beezer Homes League southern division; Witney one, Erith and Belvedere nil; the Vauxhall League division two south; Harefield two, Abingdon Town two; the South Midland League premier division; Langford one, Thame two; the O'Brien Trophy; Tring three, Oxford City one; the Hellenic League premier cup; Banbury one, Carterton two; Bicester two, Milton nil; Didcot one, Almondsbury nil; Wantage nil, Bishops Cleve one; the premier division; Hounslow three, Headington Amateurs one; Swindon Athletic one, Abingdon United nil; the Combination League; Portsmouth Reserves four, Oxford United Reserves two; and the south-east Counties League; Oxford United one, Swindon nil; now for the classified football results, here's Headley Feast.
Barclays League division one; Coventry City three, Crystal Palace one; Derby County three, Sunderland three; Luton Town one, Nottingham Forest nil; Manchester United nil, Everton two; Queens Park Rangers one, Manchester City nil; Sheffield United two, Aston Villa one; Southampton two, Leeds United nil; Tottenham Hotspur one, Chelsea one; Wimbledon nil, Norwich City nil; division two; Barnsley two, Watford one; Blackburn Rovers two, Swindon Town one; Brighton and Hove Albion one, Oldham Athletic two; Bristol Rovers one, Milwall nil; Charlton Athletic two, Bristol City one; Hull City nil, Middlesbrough nil; Ipswich Town nil, Wolverhampton Wanderers nil; Newcastle United two, Leicester City one; Oxford United one, Portsmouth nil; Plymouth Argyll two, Port Vale nil; West Bromwich Albion nil, West Ham United nil; division three; Birmingham City two, Swansea City nil; Bournemouth one, Chester City nil; Bury two, Wigan Athletic two; Fulham one, Reading one; Mansfield Town one, Grimsby Town one; Shrewsbury Town nil, Preston Northend one; Stoke City two, Exeter City one; division four; Aldershot one, Doncaster Rovers one; Blackpool three, Hereford United nil; Carlisle United two, Wrexham nil; Darlington one, Stockport County nil; Gillingham nil, Chesterfield one; Halifax Town five, Walsall two; Hartlepool United nil, Torquay United nil; Peterborough United two, Maidstone United nil; Scarborough three, Lincoln City nil; Scunthorpe United two, York City one; the Scottish B and Q League premier division; Aberdeen one, Rangers nil; Celtic three, St Johnstone nil; Dundee United one, Dunfermline Athletic nil; Hibernian four, St Mirren three; Motherwell one, Heart of Midlothian three; the first division; Airdrionians nil, Dundee one; Ayr United five, Wraith Rovers three; Breckin City two, Hamilton Academicals two; Falkirk one, Clyde nil; Partick Thistle two, Forfar Athletic nil; the second division; Alloa one, Montrose nil; Arbroath nil, Stirling Albion one; Cowden Beath two, Albion Rovers two; Dunbarton two, East Fyfe one; Queens Park three, Queen of the South nil; Stenhouse Muir nil, East Stirlingshire nil; and the Tenants Cup fourth round; Morton three, Meadowbank nil.
Headley Feast with today's classified football results.
So, a victory for Oxford United; it came after a few of the supporters had left the ground, it came in injury time — Oxford United one, Portsmouth nil, reporting on the match, a very happy Nick Harris.
Oxford United were heading for their second successive nil all game, when in the first minute of injury time, central defender, Andy Melville popped up in the penalty area to score a vital goal, and to give United three vital points in their fight against relegation.
Before then, despite a number of chances, this game had nil all written all over it; United did have their chances, they hit the post, Steve Foster and Martin Foyle both went close but the ball never appeared to be going into the back of the net.
And full credit to the visitors Portsmouth, they pushed more and more men forward as the game progressed and they almost snatched it towards the end.
Well, United started in fine style as early as the twentieth second; Martin Foyle was brought down on the edge of the penalty area and Paul Simpson's free kick was headed away for a corner.
Back came Portsmouth and Colin Clark's header well held by Ken Vasey at the other end while two minutes later, Jim Magilton turned well on the edge of the Portsmouth penalty area, but his dipping shot was well held by the visitor's goal keeper, Andy Gosney.
United were on top but it was a scrappy game, full of fouls as both sides tried to gain some sort of control; one touch football as I say, a lot of misplaced passes and a lot of fouls, although United had a chance in the fifteenth minute when Martin Foyle almost headed home Paul Simpson's cross from the right at the near post.
Mike Ford then shot over the bar from thirty yards, and in the thirtieth minute, Graham Hogg was booked for a challenge on Lee Nogan; Hogg who'd performed so well at the heart of the Portsmouth defence.
United's best chance of the half came just a minute later; Martin Foyle ran on to the perfect Paul Simpson through ball, he actually got past goal keeper Andy Gosney but he was forced just a little bit wide.
He ran into the path of fellow striker, Lee Nogan, and as both hesitated who was going to put the ball into the empty net, the chance had gone and the ball was hacked away.
Three minutes later Simpson ran on to a back pass, he got his foot to the ball just before Gosney, he collided with the goal keeper, but full marks the goal keeper, he grabbed the ball at the second attempt, and once again, the chance had gone.
Portsmouth then had a good spell, they forced two successive corners but the half ended with United so almost scoring.
In the forty third minute, Foyle volleyed wide from fifteen yards when really he should have been on target after receiving from Magilton, and as referee Taylor was looking at his whistle to blow it for half time, United skipper, Steve Foster drove forward from the edge of the penalty area, shrugged off a couple of challenges, hit a good low shot, seemingly under the body of Gosney, but Gosney's body just halted the flow of the ball.
It still ran away from him but he grabbed it again at the second attempt before it went over the line and the chance had gone.
The second half followed very much the same pattern, a minute in to the half, a delightful United move involving Magilton, Phillips, Nogan and Philips, but Phillips' final cross to Nogan was just a little bit too long.
Portsmouth then lost Warren Aspell with an ankle injury and he was replaced by Sean Murray.
United then forced two successive corners and in the sixty second minute, another good build-up by United, it ended with Magilton almost getting through but his shot was blocked by Gosney who was injured making the save and Nogan volleyed the cross inches wide.
Portsmouth's best chance came in the sixty fourth minute, a great breakaway down the left, the cross coming in, seventeen goal man Guy Whittingham getting his head to the ball, but it wasn't going to be his eighteenth goal of the season, because Ken Vasey dived to his right, just got his finger tips to the ball and held on to it and the chance had gone.
United then brought on John Durning for Mickey Lewis, Magilton had the best chance of the game in the seventy third minute when he was cleared through, he shot from ten yards, he beat Gosney, hit the post and bounced away.
It all then got rather frustrating and a little worrying as Portsmouth looked more and more dangerous; in the seventy seventh minute Les Robertson was booked for a foul on Russell and a minute later John Beresford booked for a foul on Nogan.
As time ran out, Martin Cool right on the stroke of full time got in a great volley, it was well held by Ken Vasey.
But then United broke to the other end and won a free kick a minute into injury time.
Twelve yards outside the Portsmouth penalty area, left side to be taken by number eleven, Paul Simpson surely their last chance in this game.
Simpson raises his hands in the air, United have got Andy Melville and Steve Foster at the far post, Simpson still delays taking the kick, now it comes in, he knocks it in to the far post, looking for Paul, Paul heads it back over the top — and they've scored.
Oxford United has scored, it's Andy Melville that has put the ball into the net, into injury time, the cross came in, Martin Foyle headed it back across the face of the goal and it's Andy Melville that has surely clinched three vital points for Oxford United; into injury time, Oxford United one, Portsmouth nil.
And that was that.
Almost immediately referee, Paul Taylor blew his whistle, the poor Portsmouth fans made their sad way home to the south coast, the players with heads drooped, left the field and many of the United fans were already leaving the ground in the crowd of five hundred  five thousand, two hundred and twenty six when Andy Melville scored that vital goal which gave United three very important League points.
Final scoreline up here at the Manor; Oxford United one, Portsmouth nil.
A very delighted Nick Harris bringing us the good news about Oxford United getting through and winning today against Portsmouth by a goal to nil.
And that's moved them no less than three places up the second division table, they're higher than I think they've been for many a long day.
Their up to fifteenth in the table, they leap frog over Portvale, West Bromwich Albion and Charlton; I've got that wrong, in fact they move over Portvale, Portsmouth and West Brom, Charlton of course winning today and going up, and Plymouth.
But United are now fifteenth with thirty six points and although it's very close behind them; Port Vale have thirty six, West Brom thirty five, Charlton thirty five, Plymouth thirty five, Portsmouth thirty five, Blackburn and Leicester both have thirty three.
The important thing is, they've moved well away from the relegation area; poor old Watford and Hull, things looking very bleak for them, they're trailed seven points behind Leicester, ten points behind Oxford, both Watford and Hull have twenty six points.
Well, I think we can go back to the Manor ground.
Well welcome back to the Manor ground, I've got with me a delighted United goal keeper, Ken Vasey; mighty close Ken.
Yes it was yes, last sort of quarter of an hour they was pressing forward and you know, it always looks like you know, they're going to nick it but, we held out.
It's two clean sheets on the chart and erm you know, a great goal by Andy.
Very frustrating time I think for everybody that last sort of quarter of an hour, nothing really flowing properly, you coming under increasing pressure — difficult time for a goal keeper then?
Yes, it's very hard because you get to that stage where you know you can only really push forward for so long, then when it  you know, the whistle looms near, you try and you know, you're just going to go for the result really, and keep it you know, a clean sheet and just get a point out of the game.
Did you see much of the goal, or as it was a free kick floated in and Martin Foyle headed it back across the face of goal and erm your partner in crime really at the back put it in.
Yes it erm you know, Martin's done well, he's got up and just nodded it down for Andy and erm he's took it well; a little touch and he's just finished it very well, so you know, I'm pleased for him.
But he's making a bit of a habit isn't he, Notts County I think it was, very much the same situation; three two then for a three all draw, he scored right at the end then.
Yes, he seems to pop up and get the important goals when they're needed and you know, none was more important than today really.
Now we talk about the second successive clean sheet, the first for United what, Wednesday night against Milwall since October the twentieth, so what's happened to stop the goals going in?
Oh there are no, you know with the gaff this time, a lot of work like during the week and that and we've tightened up quite a bit and tried to you know, get ourselves organised.
And hopefully you know, hopefully get another one Wednesday, or Tuesday night as you say.
Couple of good saves today you must be pleased with; Wittingham got in one very good header didn't he.
He looked a dangerous striker and got in a good header which I think you got to the right and got your hand to?
Yes, you're always wary of erm people like that you know, their reputation goes before them, and erm you don't really see the ball till late, he just flicked it down, I just done enough to get down and erm you know, get my right hand to it and like, Steve Foster was following up well and that and you know, that's the things that we've got the run with us now.
And right on the  almost on the final whistle just before United scored in injury time, I think mid-fielder Martin Cool got in a very good volley didn't he from some distance, but it really was whistling toward goal?
Yes, he took a deflection off erm Andy Melville, I think he was going for his second, and erm I just managed to you know, just get down to my left and just keep it there, and it just sort of stuck so I was pleased with that.
How about yourself, you've settled well at United, though strangely when you were on loan everything seemed to be going so well didn't it, there were some good results coming.
Since you signed it's been a little bit up and down, some goals conceded, not necessarily down to you, so you must be pleased that things have settled down a bit?
Yes it goes like that, like you say, you know, it's come in and I didn't have nothing to lose and things were going well, then there's been a bit of a lull and erm like I say, we've worked hard and we've like  with  following in on this save earlier on.
Before there would have been a striker in there to finish it, so that's the way to do it, you know the roles are reversed and we've  getting a bit of luck.
A very important time coming up for the club, some very important games, no more important to people in this area than the game at Swindon on Tuesday night, But then away to Middlesborough, home to West Ham, still something to play for for Oxford United this season if the results keep going their way?
Well it's always going to be hard because we're, you know, near the bottom and that and it's very tight, you know just a win or a loss like, it puts you either three places up or right near the bottom.
So obviously there's a few tough games ahead, but you know, with erm  if we set our  out right and keep working hard, then hopefully we can get a few points and maybe push ourselves further up the table.
And finally, Tuesday night — probably to you, what, a Londoner and playing down in Torquay, the game against Swindon, never taken so much significance, but a very very important game for Oxford United and their followers.
Oh yes, you only had to listen to this afternoon like, with the crowds and that, obviously it means a lot to them and there's a lot of you know, stick I suppose goes around between the two clubs, so I just want to go out there, hopefully have a good game and keep a clean sheet.
Ken thanks for coming to talk to us.
Lovely, thanks a lot.
And that's Nick Harris talking to Ken Vasey up at the Manor ground and we hope to return to the Manor in a few moments time and see who else Nick has got to talk to us.
Still waiting for a lot of the reports to come in, but we did have one winner on Guess the Scores this afternoon.
Only one person remarkably said that Oxford United would win by one goal to nil, I think loads of people go for the three ones or the four ones or things like that.
And our one person was Terry Phipps from Abingdon, he's on the line at the moment, Terry well, you felt it was going to be one nil did you or?
Yes, just a hunch feeling, they just kept a clean sheet in the last game, and I thought perhaps they might keep another one, but erm and scramble a goal — it was very late wasn't it?
But you went for Paul Simpson I think to score?
I did indeed yes.
Have you been in for this Guess the Scores, have you won anything before?
No, first time, well first time on Guess the Scores, just the odd quiz that I've won before; horse racing.
Right, well there is a horse racing quiz coming up later in the programme, so keep listening 
Keep listening 
I should think he is an all.
Yeah.
Bloody ridiculous!
Three year, three year he got, didn't he?
Yeah, three years
Killed two, killed two people there!
What in a car?
Yeah.
And he were gonna get three year!
Oh!
Cos the father and son shouted in the court.
He jailed them for the weekend, the judge.
There's them,
Yeah.
there's them Kray bloody brothers.
Well, I don't agree what they did, but they were only killing their own, their own kind, weren't they?
Aye, they were.
And they , and they got thirty-odd year!
When we went to Portugal  there was er a lass, we'd saved some money and I said, I said don't spend it all 
Well who were that big film star that were mixed up with them.
Oh, er Windsor, was it, Barbra?
Oh, Barbra Windsor.
Aye 
and all them they're all
Aye, they were all mixed up with them weren't they?
No, no, not that one, Doug, this were a big woman, weren't she?
And I believed she died, didn't she?
Didn't  come to her funeral?
Or did one of Krays die?
A big blonde woman she was.
Oh, Diana Dors.
Ah, Ronnie, Ronnie Knight.
Aye, Ronnie Knight.
Diana Dors's husband.
Oh that little bugger you were on about, aye he killed some bugger, didn't he, in, in a cafe and pissed off abroad.
They can't get him.
All right,
Aye, the bugger's still 
Right, go on.
But what, what are them er 
When I get home I'll have a cheese sandwich or summat   
I will have one of them Krays, you know that young lad whose,
Aye.
he's erm made one of the Krays his dad, have you read it?
Well his stepdad.
He's, he's from our village him, he writes to him and he goes and visits him.
Aye!
One of the Krays.
Hold on Doug, I'll get them.
Aye, he's only eleven years old, int he?
Yeah.
He calls him dad now.
I don't know how he smokes at all!
No 
Your mam used to be like that but she had  she had a cylinder of oxygen in the house as well.
You want to run round the block, Les!
maybe  better get doctor's advice on owt like that.
Les.
That's what I saying, but it's better seeing doctor, it's no good somebody, me coming in  
Oh no, but I,
You know
he should be on them now though.
You wanna, you wanna get, you wanna,
got them tablets, or the tablets for your breathing.
You try and get one of them buggers what blows you up, Les.
What, a blow-up doll?
Aye, them, them bloody oxygen things.
A bitter shandy.
Bitter shandy.
at any rate, for one.
Mm?
tonight.
Is that lager?
Mm.
Yeah.
Squeeze it.
you wanna see  when he gets busy  it gets lower than that.
You reckon them three buggers up there it's a good half way down a bloody pint, innit?
Eh?
Them three pints nearly half way down  innit.
Oh there's tricks in every trade.
Oh aye.
but it looks horrible when it's right up.
I've been to London.
It's bloody terrible is a pint in London.
I like a collar on.
Yeah, yeah.
Cos it's not appetizing if it's er
I remember  I remember years ago used to be,
I like to see tipping the bugger in like that.
used to be er, you know as you're going down to infirmary down from  you turn right on the  road don't you?
There used to be a doctor, called Doctor Bessie  lived there  You know where I mean, don't you?
Where pub is now on opposite side?
No, before you get to Cumberland.
Oh yeah.
First turning.
There's a house there and Doctor Bessie  used to live there, a woman doctor, and everybody started work at er   what they call it?
I C I er
International, International 
Well she had exa had to examine everybody.
Course there's er a big, big nigger come one day for a job and she says get stripped off.
She says, what's a matter with your toes?
He says, I developed toesillitis.
She says tonsillitis
Toesa
she said me tonsillitis
Oh, tonsillitis.
She said  well he said after that I got it off pneumonia.
She said, she said there's one thing you won't get diphtheria!
I knew what was coming!
I knew there was summat bloody coming here.
I knew there were a bugger coming then.
Like the five legs last week.
I never got head nor tail of that.
Five legs.
Oh dear.
bloody if you bring some without any tails on?
I'll bring them Wednesday!
I I'll put them in fridge.
Aye, I'll, I'll bring them down Friday night.
They're beau they're beautiful, they are.
Eh?
They're about that big
he ain't paid me that bugger, that reminded me!
I'll send him a bloody letter next, tomorrow, I'll send him a bloody letter.
Solicitor's letter.
Aye, I'll send him a solicitor's letter that bloody  
I haven't seen him in here 
Aye, he were in last night.
Ducks without tails?
He asked me how much 
Pardon?
Ducks without tails did you say?
Without  
but this is an old shop at  and they're about that big by that aren't they?
Aye, they are, Tom.
look bloody fabulous!
Oh.
They hadn't that veil on them like they used 
They are really marvellous!
I've never tried them, like, I dunno.
They make them in bloody big batches now  
Ah, but this is er a real old 
Aye, they will do, Ken.
shop and even the  you know.
Aye.
It's a fabulous shop.
Tom, innit?
Oh, everything.
Aye.
You know and it's not fat, not all that fat, you know, but   
when, when I were a lad 
Well I mean 
That's how I like belly pork.
Oh I like belly pork.
Aye
I like the crackling, you know.
You do?
Oh aye.
Well he brought me some without that on it 
Oh aye.
Bye god, it's bloody good that.
Oh I like it.
It were about  one pound thirty or summat  about that width 
Yeah.
and about that length.
I like the crackling on it.
And the steak and kidney pies, they're one sixty-five 
Pound of, pound of meat in them, Tom, there must be, there must be.
you know, and they're about that big all in, in this er silver foil.
Aye.
Aye.
They're cooked, but I mean they  just warm up  out of this world!
Well isn't a pork pie thirty bob?
I think they were thirty bob.
I'd better have a word with him.
If you see him, tell him!
You know these curd cheesecakes?
Yeah.
I love a curd cheesecake 
oh, they're so lemony.
You're know them copper curds?
Yeah.
Aye 
Mm, like old-fashioned  
good curd cheesecake.
Mm.
I can see them making your mouth water!
Aye!
What did you bring old Bernard last week?
No, that was the Stilton cheese.
Cheese.
Oh aye.
No, I, I was there an and they were selling  cheeses so, I have them every year really, and I'm just finishing one and I got one  I got five.
I bought five  kept another one for my sen and let Bernard have one  let er woman opposite us have one.
You know she's  she's a councillor isn't she?
She's chef here.
No, she's cooked here!
The chef, with a  
Oh!
Aye, aye, I know her.
Aye
Carol and er  Len, Len  had one.
Aye.
Three fifty a piece.
How much?
Three pound fifty.
Just over two pound.
Two pound forty-nine in Tesco it were, a pound.
Mm.
Stilton.
That size, thirty bob a piece.
One pound six.
bit of Guinness in her bitter.
Do you swallow that bloody smoke from them buggers.
Aye, can you stand them?
No, but I thought you seemed to be a long while getting the bugger out.
Ah Christ!
I don't know how you can swallow that bugger!
I never swallow smoke.
I don't know how he can swallow them there
I swallow enough bloody smokes 
Aye, when I first come in, I, I grabbed it, I grabbed that pipe bacca.
Aye.
It's only, it's only when you come out 
Aye, aye.
It's not bothering me now.
No.
Just when  when you  
you wouldn't come, would you?
Eh?
You wouldn't come if it bothered you.
Ah!
I tell you what I can't stand sme er smoke in a bedroom.
Cigarette smoke.
Bye god it's bloody terrible!
better?
No!
I know and I
Would you?
Well I'm glad I didn't come for my promise, Charlie, cos I smoke in bed.
Oh, well I'll excuse you that night.
Just the one night I would've excused you.
You'd have been smouldering next morning, wouldn't she Charlie?
Aye I would.
I would.
You can smell, you can, you can smell it 
Bye god,in a bedroom.
we live  above front room like?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Our Julie comes, I mean I smoke cigars in house
You can smell them.
Yeah.
and I can tell when our Julie's in.
Yeah.
Oh yeah, you can smell it.
You can in mine, yeah.
Aye.
and it, it gets up there!
Yeah.
You can bloody smell it, can't you?
Yeah, it does.
It drifts up.
Yeah.
Maybe you can smell the cigarette smoke and yet you're smoking them buggers.
Yeah, different, different smell, you see.
Different smell you see.
Aye, aye, aye.
Oh aye, aye.
Different smell!
Yeah.
Yeah.
that's different, different bloody different scent,
Yeah.
Mm.
smell.
See li li things like beer.
If you've been drinking beer you can  you can't smell beer on anybody else, can you?
No.
No.
No.
No.
If even you've only had half  
When I go to bed I go up with a cig.
You do?
And when I wake up, I light one and go down, yeah.
I used to do that but
I don't like smoke all night in bed
No, no.
but I, I have them with us, you know.
Year and year since I used to get up  make fire for Alice in the mornings, this is, must be ten or twelve year since, and light a cig up.
Well I must've passed out one morning.
Aye.
And now I've never smoked a bugger since before breakfast, never  
No, I do.
before breakfast, no.
I do.
I always go upstairs with a cig.
I don't light it then  and I light one in there.
Do you?
Yeah.
Then when I wake up I light up.
Oh, no.
Yeah.
You, know if anybody been ea smelling, eating onion and you, you blow on him   bugger off 
be away from you then.
See it's come to me maybe  eleven o'clock, half-past eleven in the morning.
Yeah.
You know, you
Aye.
Smell it.
Yeah.
Aye.
your breakfast and your lunch and 
Yeah.
you could still smell 
Yeah.
Bloody garlic's same.
Oh garlic
must be terrible that.
I mean, I mean  garlic  and chew the bugger  I think it does you good.
It is good, it is good for you.
doesn't half stink does that.
We were working  colliery  Oh Jesus!
Stink!
He used, he used to bring a gar he was at work everyday, little bugger and you know
Garlic.
eating.
Mm.
But you don't know what 
If you'd, if you'd had a little bit yourself you wouldn't, you wouldn't have smelt it.
No.
You don't, you don't know what's in that bloody stuff though, do you?
What garlic?
You don't.
It's all right, Charlie.
Is it?
Aye.
Well
It's good for you.
I've got some chi er cheese with garlic,
Aye.
garlic in.
Oh that with that green 
Spread cheese.
in it?
Spread cheese,
Oh.
The other week and I'd never had it before but er I liked it.
Oh Margaret had some the other day, she said do you want a bit of this cheese, it's green, it's some, it's some green, I said I don't want any of that  
Chives are, yeah.
bloody stuff.
Chives, yeah.
I don't want none of that bugger 
you wanna try it.
You might,
Nice, Charlie.
You might, you might take to it.
I might do but I don't 
Good, good for your stomach.
I don't 
It's good for your sex life!
Where can you get it from?
Parsnips is as well, Charlie.
Eat parsnips.
Aye, but I've been chewing them buggers this last six months but it hasn't worked for me  
I like parsnips though.
Yeah, I do.
Don't like them.
Aye.
roasted round beef, aye.
They're too sweet, Les, I don't like them.
I don't like them.
I've eat them, like but I've 
There's not much, much I don't like.
No, I'm not, no.
I've, I've tried er, er  er sugarbeet before now.
Aye, I've tried that.
Sugarbeet, aye.
Well they don't hurt you or owt like that.
No!
Well, I should say they not 
Same as mangoes.
They make jam with bloody mangoes, don't they?
Aye.
I should say sugarbeet ain't far off from a bloody parsnip.
No, no.
They take mangoes  I used to take these here loads  you know the little er  seeds,
Yeah.
jam seeds?
they're not going in seeds, they're all going to make  pieces of wood.
No, make seeds out of, out of , out of wood.
They mix it up and put it in that!
Aye.
He gave me a lift.
Did he?
No, I worked late.
I normally catch quarter-past-five bus and I get in about ten-past-six, but he wanted me to work late and I says, well how late?
He says, it will not be that late and I'll take you home anyway.
So I didn't put me coat on, had me coat over me legs.
Aye.
Are you?
What's up with you?
Weird you are.
I'm in the house all day.
Oh.
You should've phoned me up.
Well, I went to the town earlier on with Debbie.
I've not got your number.
And you?
Is it?
And yours 
Aye.
I always go there as well 
is that what she said?
They depress me watching these programmes.
Why?
Cos I could with a bit.
Looking at all package deals today Tenerife, erm eighteen nights, hundred and five or summat but you had to go sixth February.
Mm.
Really cheap package deals.
I said to John last night  he's going to London on fifteenth, oh well, the fourteenth if we're back on Sunday.
I says, you're definitely going then?
He says, yeah, he says, why?
Oh, cos I'm going out with Paul that weekend, I says, I just wanna make sure I can definitely arrange it all and he went  are you?
About half-six.
Yeah, cos I thought you were working afternoon  borrowed his bike
Yeah.
and used the other bike.
Yeah.
I watched football and then went out  
I went there about  one o'clock.
We went to 
is that what you're on about?
Yeah.
Oh.
Cos he went to football instead, spent morning playing football
Shit!
cos he come about one o'clock.
shall take that one out?
Never go out in the week.
We don't go out at all now, do we?
Been out for ages.
turned back cos of fog.
He had to turn back cos of fog.
I've seen, I've seen Spud 
Yeah, Spud still went out.
They, we, when Spud went out we thought that they weren't still coming.
No, they rang Chelle's to get my phone number
Yeah.
but when they were ringing I were on phone to John's mum because there were someone hanging about house, so I talked to John's mum for ages on phone and then Debbie rang, didn't she?
Mm.
so as he'd been trying to get through it was always engaged.
In the middle of nowhere at this phone box.
So they travelled home, about time they got home it were too late to be ringing.
I said that, didn't I?
Mm.
I said if I'd known they aren't, they, they weren't coming I'd have gone out.
No, not yet.
I think I'm going back to college in September, take a nursing course.
Is your mum going with them?
No, I didn't think she would.
I was thinking about her 
yet our  finishes at school at quarter-past-three she could go and pick him up but no they want me to do it.
My Auntie 
Is she?
Mm.
So who's going then 
but my Auntie Jean's not going in cos it'll upset her an all.
She's just gonna sign papers an that.
Me mum don't think she'll settle.
She wanted to come home and see the dog.
You know what she's like with the dog  
What are they doing with the dog?
an all.
Have they?
Sure you don't want a drink?
Go on then, Paul.
Coffee?
Yeah.
Er have you got a cold drink?
Water.
milk?
Milk.
Some wine?
Oh no.
tastes of alcohol in that   What is the Windthorpe for then?
Is Windthorpe just for when they got old.
Aye.
It's incontinent, you know.
Well my Nanny, you know me Nana, don't you?
Was always tottering up and down with glasses on?
Aye, yeah.
She's erm, ta, she's got Alzheimer's and she's getting really bad, she's getting a danger to herself and she's got to go away to  tomorrow.
Has she?
She doesn't know what she's talking about half the time, she doesn't know who anybody is.
she used to talk to me, well in the summer an that, you know, on about  she's, I don't know 
Oh, she thinks she's just come home from   
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I thought that, you know.
You have it with sugar, don't you?
No, I don't have any now.
And on about  you know.
Yeah, she thinks erm her Mum and Dad's still alive  
That were  what she said to her that day and she says to you, if you carry on I'm gonna have you put in that orphan's home.
Yeah, she's gonna have me put in an orphan's home 
Well that's how,you know, she's going back  years ago.
Well that's what it is.
This disease, it like, it destroys all the brain cells, you know 
Yeah, mm.
all the memory cells and it destroys recent ones so she can't remember things from recent but she can remember things from years and years and years ago, it's really funny.
Cos if any of our family went up some she would know  some she would like, Michael and, and er Rob live away, she says they're not her sons
Mm.
You know.
You know, but, she knew who I was, like.
Then our Sandra went last Saturday  and she didn't know who she was.
Yeah.
She always knows me Auntie Jean because me Auntie Jean what favourite from being young
Aye.
and like me Auntie Jean has to go down three and four times a day sometimes.
But she thinks me Mum's one of the nieces whose a tart and an  alcoholic.
That's what she's always saying to your mum, ain't she?
It's a shame 
But like now she's a da a real danger to herself.
Sh she floods kitchen and
Mm.
Does she?
Yeah, she flooded kitchen the other week, didn't she?
I know she was always on about she's frightened in there on her own  
Mm.
Well kids stay all the time but they've been using it as a doss house, you know,
Yeah.
got friends to go in messing about all the time and they've,al everything that she had that were decent they've ruined it all.
Yeah.
Oh.
Yeah  
That's what I  
Thought it were one he fetched down.
No,
I never realised  Chris owed me a fiver for me wage  and I says to him I had to pay me bill for me food for week and it was like six quid.
And I says to him, have you got a fiver?
And he went, you what?
Looked at me like that.
That fiver you owe me out of me wage.
Oh yeah, sorry.
He would've tried to get away with it.
I weren't having none of it though.
How much do you get there a week?
Not enough.
How much?
Erm me basic should be forty-three, but I get fifty-five to sixty plus if he's  I get commission depending on if I work late.
Well that's not very often this time of year.
Before Christmas I were getting  seventy some weeks, weren't I?
Building up to Christmas it were like, in between sixty to seventy, but this time of year I'm just on me rock bottom.
It would, which is like fifty, fifty five.
Have you done all your training?
Have you got your paper an that.
Yeah.
Aye.
Yeah it will be, won't it?
She's getting a bit fed up 
Is she in college full-time then?
No.
Were you?
No.
Were you part-time?
I used to go in one, one day a week.
Bar Friday she goes into hairdressers  
Yeah.
Bus stop, the   you know where  
Oh yeah.
Duke Street.
Yeah and
There's a hairdressers up, upstairs.
stairs, yeah.
No, there's a Co-op one on one side, one above Co-op and then on other side erm  is it called Jean's, or something like that?
I'll tell you the one
Yeah, is it just a little door that leads up to it?
I think so, I'm not sure.
Oh!
Hair by someone it is.
Deborah works there erm, she used to work at Debbie's shop, summat 
Jane.
Jane.
Jane 
Oh.
No, no Jane 
Jane  is it the same one as that?
Jane  she works there yeah.
Yeah it's just a woman's name or  
cos it's next door to paper shop so
Jackie's or Tracy or summat like that.
Summat like that, yeah.
Yeah.
I, I liked it at college but I'm glad I went just one day a week because 
It's moved now though, you know, it's not
Yeah, it's in Church View int it?
Yeah.
Because I think you find that when you go all time, when you come to go into a salon I think you find you're slower, do you know what I mean, because you're not used to
Yeah.
salon routine.
But in saying that, I, I wouldn't of minded if I had to go to college full-time cos I enjoyed it.
Can't see her!
Got a phone call this morning off, you know magic?
Who?
What did they say?
Said they wanted a poster.
I answered.
She asked for Mr  so I says who is it?
She says  something about 
And did you for something?
Yeah, well  erm, see I advertised it all round cafe as well that I'd sent for it as well.
it might've been someone from cafe phoning up 
I says he's in the Army.
She says yeah, I know, but he give his home number.
I says, oh well, I say I don't know.
Just see if he wanted a poster.
She said, oh, he'll probably get in touch with us.
I said yeah.
I didn't dare say he was in cos 
No.
it was somebody
I've only got 
Have you?
Yeah.
I've got a brochure as well.
It's supposed to be 
woman phoning from 
waiting list weren't they?waiting list.
Have you told her?
No.
Oh.
They're on holiday.
Take what?
for a holiday?
Wouldn't surprise me though, really.
I don't think it's 
Don't know.
I'd like to go, I think it would, but I'd like to go to America cos that's where it ori originated.
I don't class it as, as Disney World.
I class 
No, it's not Disney World, no.
Yeah but I class like
Mickey Mouse 
That one there.
Yeah.
No.
Did you?
No, I bottled out at last minute.
Me Mum and Dad split up didn't they just before 
I remember that.
Me erm me Mum and Dad split up just before didn't they and couldn't afford it.
She's down to her target weight now.
She's gotta do another two weeks at er, at er at er same weight 
At the same weight , innit?
and then she's life-long member.
And then they allow her got a stone and a half over before she has to start paying again.
But I don't think she ever will now.
She's really good, int she?
Yeah.
Don't you think Sam's slim?
I, I think, eh?
Don't you think Sam's slim?
Well 
Sam.
You didn't when you come home last time and you were 
Oh yeah  
I think they look after them when they've lost a lot of weight, you know.
Aye.
Some of the look poorly , don't they?
I mean, she looked after, to me they, they do.
When you see them 
Me, me, I think me Mum  
And Beryl, Beryl er 
Yeah, she does, doesn't she?
Mm.
she says, did you join Sheila?
I says join what?
She says Weight, I says I didn't say I was.
I says er  I wouldn't spend money on to lose weight.
I says 
Mm.
She says what if you're desperate?
I says I still wouldn't
Mm.
pay three pound odd a week.
It, it worked out, my mum at first thought it weren't too bad cos she got in with one of these special offer things.
Aye, yeah.
But towards end when she only, she only had a pound to lose and she paid about six week on run to go to get weighed to tell her she was exactly same weight.
And that's all she were doing going and getting weighed like.
So, she said, up to Christmas she says I'm gonna give it two more week and if I ain't last it I'm jacking it in.
Mm.
And everyone was saying well it was a shame you've got this far.
She said yeah, but it's a lot of money when you think
Well I, it is.
oh she's going to get weighed an that.
I mean Edna joined, you know me mate Edna?
Pardon?
You know me mate Edna?
Er
I think you've seen her, gingery hair.
I probably will do.
Sh she said when  joined she said, oh I wouldn't join, pay money.
Yeah.
But she joined like.
It's like me Mum said.
At first it were good because it were incentive for her to keep going because she'd, you know, paid so much but toward the end, she said, it were getting ridiculous.
You know, for one pound she were paying like three quid a week or whatever.
Yeah, I know.
Plus they had these raffles where you take 
Aye.
something.
I mean I
You might as well get your 
I lost mine when I was 
Mm.
It's what erm
It's all beer.
Six pints
Well, better than getting half every time, innit?
Aye.
I think that's what my excuse, I've got a beer belly.
if I never drink nor smoke what else would I have?
That's what me mum always said.
It's only bloody luxury I've got in life, smoking.
it's all in life.
Keith said I'm gonna change me but
That's what I'm gonna do.
Go on a cruise liner.
Mm.
Aye.
That's where your money is.
Actually someone were telling me
You don't get a lot of money.
Yeah, you don't get much at all.
No.
Cos  board and everything's free.
Ah, but you don't want a lot after that, will you  
Well you don't because you get, if you think,
gym instructor.
if you think you're going on a cruise liner it's obviously gonna be, you know, fairly well off people.
Mm.
So, I mean, they tip you so they don't pay you as much.
Not really 
Jamaica.
I'm still coming.
On your what?
last week, that's all.
That's right.
As soon as I get out of the Army.
Get married.
they kick you out and buy you a caravan.
Two hundred and fifty
Three days.
Three days.
right, Archie, he's erm, on his own, own he's er, think his wife died years ago, he saved and saved and he went on a big cruise, do you know what I mean?
I think he were going for a, a month, a month and a half summat like that, and he said it were out of this world.
He said he felt like a king.
Mm.
Who's she?
She's put
Judith Chalmers.
She's put, she's got wrinkles now hasn't she.
She used to have 
Well, when you get old you get them.
So you're gonna have to, one day, Paul, you'll look over the breakfast table and see wrinkles on me face and you'll think, Oh, did I marry that?
I bet John's dad in bar now.
Where's he gone?
Tenerife.
It'll not be that hot 
For a holiday?
there now, will it?
On his own?
Yeah, fairly.
Yeah, but not that hot.
His mate, Tommy.
Where's your lad living?
He's not my lad   
The lad lives at 
How many girlfriends have you got?
Just Sam.
Oh, is that all?
Where?
Supposed to be going down on weekend of fifteenth but when she phones on Thursday I'm going to tell her to come during the week.
we'll all go out.
Why?
Cos I don't.
No.
She's funny.
What she look like?
You've asked me if you could, if she could come  
I wanna say, where's she staying, Paul?
She's staying in that caravan he's got in field there.
Aye.
She's, what she look like?
Bet she's double of me.
She is.
But she's got ginger hair.
Oh!
ginger hair!
It's red!
No.
Bad tempered.
Ooh!
I hate ginger hair.
My first boyfriend had ginger hair.
No.
Well Craig were more blonde when I first 
Aye, Craig did used to look quite blonde, didn't he?
He were, yeah.
Wendy's just got Sky, hasn't she?
Eh?
Wendy's got Sky in today.
I went round, I got the lecture.
Wendy got Sky?
Yeah, today.
I got the lecture.
Oh.
Yeah.
Thought I would.
Who's Wendy?
Wendy.
Oh, right!
What's she saying to you?
You're stupid, you're bloody stupid!
She was going it must be that bad if you want  you want to run off again.
I like Minnie Mouse cos I've got some shoes like her.
Got me Minnie Mouse shoes on, ain't I?
Thought you had to bring shoes into conversation  
More bother to me since he went in the Army.
More worry.
Miss what?
seen them both today.
remember him?
Yeah.
Well I don't know his name was 
That's what I remembered.
Can't remember it now.
Can't remember any of it.
Yeah.
She jumped
She, and could, found she could not fly and laid there looking at the sky.
Sky, I, I, I, I.
That's correct.
When's your nana going in shelter?
Is it tomorrow you were saying?
Yeah, she's going to Rossington, somewhere in Rossington.
It's like, I say, it's got a, special for alzheimers.
But she's got a dog and like with that being with her constantly it's, so it's been what she's always remembered,
Aye.
so like after a few days I can her saying, oh, I'm gonna have to go, I'm gonna have to feed dog and they're having it put down, they're having it put down.
When they having it put down?
All, all family, you know,before like, we felt whatever happens to her we'll have it.
Now it's come down to it, they're all assholes in our family, to put it politely.
this is a 
Well it's 
no swearing house.
With me Nana it's like  I think, I don't think it'd live without her.
No, cos they fret like 
I think it'd, it'd fret but it wouldn't have hurt one of them to take it on.
Like me Uncle Mick's not got a dog, me Nana's not got a dog, me Auntie Frances not got a dog.
We've got one any way so we couldn't have it, but they're, they're gonna have it put down.
Jack Russell  
It's only when it bites Sam's feet,innit?
Yeah it always goes for me, don't it?
Without fail I walk in the house and it goes for me ankles.
And you're sat there and you're like kicking it away and it goes worse.
And she'll say, won't she, don't don't kick me dog, even if it's going for your ankles!
down the road?
Yeah.
Mm.
I dread it when she walks in house cos I always think she's gonna start having a go at me, but she's never said owt to me yet, has she?
She just lo she always looks at me and laughs.
you see.
How old is she?
Erm, she'll about seventy-six, seventy-seven.
What's that?
Eighty-one, eighty two?
Get you.
Aye, it's dreadful.
Eventually she'll forget how to feed herself, how to go toilet  bedridden.
she won't be herself.
Mm.
She said to, yeah , she said  like round house.
Yeah.
But they don't know whether it's her or kids cos like me Uncle Mick's kids, they're dirty scruffs.
Mm.
Mm.
You never know what they'll be doing.
Well,asked them to do it, you know,
Mm.
even when Sandra was doing it she'd still 
Yeah.
Well me Auntie Jean and me Mum got passed once, like they'd been going down and scrubbing it from side at bath and everything.
Yeah.
That's what was happening to
Upstairs in pillow cases as well.
Mm.
And I, I think that will be kids, that.
She said  when you, you remember your Jean down, int she, and she says to your mum, do you have sugar?
And your mum says yeah, two.
She fetched the drinks and there were two tea bags in there, weren't there, instead of sugar.
Aye, she would get meals-on-wheels for her dinner and then one of the lasses would leave her summat for tea, sandwich 
Mm.
or summat, you know.
Put it in the fridge and it was still there the next day, you know,
Yeah.
she'd forgotten it.
She, she would,meals-on-wheels didn't sh , weren't she but we stopped them cos she were
She were giving it to dog!
And she weren't paying either, was she?
Well, no, they were, me Mum an that paid any way.
No, I thought she were giving them a pound and then taking change off them, she were getting change off them or summat weren't she.
Oh, I  
I remember your Jean saying.
And she was ordering stuff for Nana, you know, fruits, sweets, crisps all sorts of things, upstairs and downstairs and chocolates in, you know, she'd just go up the shops and buy them.
Yeah.
The bananas  I mean last, last year  er Michael come from  and they were 
Well, it's funny cos like, she'd, me Mum an that's been taking her shopping down and she's been buying it herself and like me Auntie Jean, she goes down three or four times a day sometimes and then she goes down again and it's all missing!
Yeah.
And they say that they think she's hiding it but there's no where to be hiding it.
But like I said, I think kids an that are taking it so
Yeah, it's a shame when they get like that though, then to be put in a home.
Well me Mum were really upset cos she said it's like losing her twice, cos I've lost her once not knowing any of us who we are,
Yeah.
and then when she goes.
Yeah.
I think me Auntie Jean's, she'll go off her rocker because she is  like I say, me Auntie Jean's only one that she ever remembers cos like me Auntie Jean takes the meal, like every meal down for her and 
Yeah.
money for light and they've been having to keep her pension and like giving her so much at a time because it's been going missing with all the money!
Yeah.
Just left her so much?
Yeah.
You know.
A shame that.
Mm.
You know we went up new year, after new year to see her er, it were, a lovely, nice Christmas tree in the foyer.
Oh it was lovely.
Lovely bedrooms they were but she'd keep saying she wanted to go out like, you know.
But they've asked her, haven't they?
They've said wouldn't you like to be somewhere where there's  people you can talk to an that and she said yeah, didn't she?
Mm.
But it's
Yeah.
like, when she gets there she's gonna be panicking about one thing and another int she, I think.
Well they sort of said that what, hopefully, she'll like be there for a couple of days and she'll never think she's been anywhere else, she'll think she's been there all the time.
But I don't think she will.
I'll tell you
But they don't wanna tell her the truth 
No, they're not.
Shall I put that on your bit of paper?
Is it tape two then?
Not that one.
Where you write
on other side where your fingers are.
Tape two, side A.
So I want that one, don't I?
Aye, you'll want side A then, yeah.
That, they went to look at some in 
they went to look at some homes in Thorne, didn't they?
And one of them they says, well when we get new arrivals in we sedate them!
Mm.
For first week or so, didn't they?
They'd been and looked at a few and there,
They said they were disgusting, didn't they?
there, were one of them where they were walking round we with wet pants, you know,ol old people an that.
Have they to pay for her?
Pardon?
Have they to pay?
Have they to pay for her to be there?
Erm, I don't think they have, have
No.
I think it's er
Dunno.
I think she's erm they like take so much out of her pension but she's not gonna need owt any way and then erm  I think government or whatever put rest.
Yeah, they put so much
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I don't, I don't think none of the family's got to er pay up.
Sh they're like all clubbing together and giving her some money to go in with cos she's got to have some money to go in with.
Yeah.
Aye, they get so much a week.
Pocket money like.
Mm.
Like there's nowt to buy really.
This one erm it's really good cos they've like, got nice little rooms and tellies in room and like, if like, they come and they're trying to like clean up, the cleaners'll like, give them a cloth so they'll think they're helping an that.
So it shouldn't be that bad.
Aye she should be all right.
When's your birthday, Chelle?
Mine's gone.
You've missed mine.
Are you nineteen now?
Twentieth January.
Is it?
Oh, thought it was the twenty-fourth.
Mm.
Beginning with mine, mine twentieth, it were your Michael's twenty-sixth, weren't it?
It were me boyfriend's thirty-first.
Got our Lindsay's Thursday
Remind me to get a card on Wednesday.
Then it's yours.
When's yours, Paul?
Thirteenth.
Thirteenth?
Day before 
I hear you're courting, Shelley, then?
Yeah erm, he's coloured like, he lives in Huddersfield.
Oh.
Oh what did your Mum say to you tonight?
Are you going with our black Mister.
he says, cos me boyfriend were supposed to be coming down and I were telling our Michael he says, oh, he's black.
And he rang you up, didn't he?
I were on phone to her and Michael took the phone off and he went Shelley, she said what?
Your boyfriend's got black on his face hasn't he?
he lives in Huddersfield, though.
I'll get you it, your Mum's got no money.
Well they'll lift further up when you've got your  
What do you want?
Oh no.
Well measure from your pole to your skirting board.
No, I want one.
curtain.
So what do you need for curtains?
He's at work again.
Higher.
Higher!
What do you need for curtains?
Some hooks.
Curtain hooks.
And when she heard it yesterday, we played it back on there, she was going all shy you know?
Aye 
She didn't like the  have to put down er what relation they are to us you know 
oh aye , aye
and their ages 
aye when when we did that one in our garden our Danielle she only eighteen months 
Mm 
she's chuntering on to her granddad  and she's pointing to the brussel sprouts you know in the garden 
Yeah 
the, the stalks, there's only the stalk left, cos it, it was between Christmas and New Year so 
Yeah 
Arthur wasn't in the garden like
mm
and er  she's chuntering on to on to her granddad and he pulled a stalk out like that he said brussel sprouts, she says brussel sprouts granddad
Aye
Oh they were worse at  it like how he did it, you know
Yeah 
when I used to go up you know for a pint of snowball he say  pint of snowball , some of the, what they call 'em 
Mm, what's them  she was on about or something?
That's  I said to her, I said I dunno, what are they fruit?
No they're feeding, the cattle feed, stock feed
Oh, the same what  I says I don't know what they're on about, they're on about garlic, well I know about garlic 
Every morning
Aye
If I go to my baker  I'll er, I'll fetch one back and I'll show ya, they, they used to grow a lot during war to make jam on  to subsidize folk to make jam and stuff like that you know 
Mm, mm 
they're er they're not like a turnip 
mango, mangoes
Yes, yes
Oh I've heard of mangoes
Yes 
Oh well I'd better go and get me pork pies, they'll be ready now
Oh were they not made  what's that flashing for?that's when I like them when they're juicy made
when you going back to school?
To pick young, to pick young lasses up
he wouldn't go, he wouldn't go to school when er 
now there, there's youths that's hung round that, hung round school gates they ought to be prosecuted
He did go to school
Only when you made him
Did he hell
he didn't go voluntary
He bloody did
I did I used to like school
Did ya?
He did, he went to school all of mine go to school 
Did they like school though?
Yeah 
Yeah I loved it
I thought, I thought he er didn't like it 
I'm best out of lot,lot
How 
Were you breast fed?
Breast fed babies are the brainiest 
No none of them were breast fed 
It's a load of bunk that is 
it was only you I had breast fed all the 
I ought 
others had the bloody bottle there's no 
I ought to I ought to've been the bloody brainiest in country me
He went in through the  school gates when he were five
Er Willy 
be
I used to, I used to go to school gate, me mum used to hang it through
in between railings
Willy  used to come from school and she used to come up me mum's house with a, so could have a suck of the tit  he would've come from school and you'd expect him the night at me mam's house
there were a, an old woman 
in village, not far up us and er I were getting round me mum and pulling on her skirts and  and this old woman says, get him fed Frances, he wants a bit of pap, get him, get him picked up and give him a bit of pap and that'll shut him up 
Aye
but er we used to 
aye it were 
get on this village you know
You're on here with the pap you know
You do realize don't ya?
Ooh, my head 
What is it?
It's fuzzy
Oh 
me head  lack of fresh air I think 
Did you get them brassieres for Reggie?
Aye, I've not  I've got them here, I left them
I hope the buggers is convenient
He wants some
Big'uns
long
Long-line
he's gonna be Wishy-Washy is he?
Na, na, in a play
Play
Who is it er
Reg  the duke
Oh aye
and he wants some long-line, well I did have some, but I don't know if I've still got them
I nearly said, I nearly said when you were er 
He wants big'uns, you know 
I nearly said when you wanted er, when he were on about when I were saying your lass is big enough cos she is well built int she?
Aye but she hasn't, she might of he wants a long-line 
Well them ones in factory as like
You know long-line, what you used to keep your spare tyre in
Oh yeah aye 
Yeah I had, I used to have one 
I did 
I dunno if it's still in the drawer
I dunno if I've still got it
I had I, I always wore them you know
Aye
I went to hospital once for me, I had me veins done, the doctor came round and
Yeah
no, no him that use the anaesthetic
The anaesthetist, aye
I had it on under me nightie just, pulled the bottom of it, he said what's this?
Yeah
I said it's for, oh what do you think it is?
We had a good laugh then
Mm, used to keep your spare tyre in you see
Oh
I went with out with them like
Yeah
I did have one in the drawer though, I don't know if it's still there
Oh you ought to have a big'un then  keep your spare tyre in 
Don't wear them now
Aye  it's all you want, nobody else's  oh she's on again   paint the house 
she's spoiling it 
breaks all the conversation up, televisions, no good 
Be lost without mine I think
I wouldn't get fed up, no
see if 
an'all
got fed up 
Well once through the week
has he got some money?
Aye I'll go if you've got some money
Don't
Aye, I don't know where there's nowt on
no
They're due on
I don't know
at seven, seventh of November our last one was 
Yes well I'll go up, go
Oh the others are due now aren't they?
Oh, aye Sheila
Okay, say like
The mess on that carpet wants cleaning 
Go and get some water go and get the cloth quickly 
never heard of er 
Sheila have you?
go and get a cloth 
Go and get the cloth please
I don't want to 
Hurry up so I can clear your gravy up, go on  go on
don't want to
Go and get the cloth 
get the cloth 
floor cloth
No 
Right then you're going home, come on get your cardy on  one, two  come on
Under the sink 
oh
the stack system what you left
Oh 
keeps fine for you love
yeah
er I thought your chain was loose there  the way it was hanging 
No it's  come on wipe that
Well I dunno what right is, and that's definitely right
Put Luke in
well 
Eh David's got a dog kennel ain't he?
What he had his dog in
Who?
David  what he had at top of the garden, he put his dog in there
Yeah 
supposed to make me one
eh, oh, elm, oak
Oak, ash
oak
elm, oak, ash they're the only ones I know are free
It is  though innit?
I think so aye 
Must be
yes 
they might have it 
Mummy
Put your cardy on then
Let's see your cardy on  
what about your pink one?
Oh aye 
Have you finished your pink one?
then it'll have to be dripped-dried
Yeah
Have you finished your pink one or wha no 
No been  on it, like it's got all any, all numbers down side what you use for which  
Has Nicola got one of these what you knit her one?
No, I haven't knit her one, I knit you 
Apparently like all numbers I used to only use B three and A one
Can you knit a new one?
I thought that's all the programme 
Me?
had on it, but it's got about eight on it 
Who says?
but none of them work
Aye 
only 
What colour?
work but only one works now
This colour
That colour?
Oh 
Eh, posh ain't ya come here love, let's, let's have a look at it?
Come here
Can't turn  
now which way you've got it on?
You want to put it right on her shoulders, cos she's not got it on properly
She pulls it down anyway more than that 
Let your mum put it on properly so it looks nice, yeah, lovely that
Look nice with a polo neck or a T-shirt 
Does it?
No I couldn't be bothered to do mine last night
Then you wanna get some of that, we were on about it yesterday
Aye it's Britannia 
Britannia and you'll get a jumper and a cardigan out of it and it's beautiful, it's only about three ninety nine in the window, the big balls 
Come on then 
it's inside
You know where Jenny gets her knitting machine 
but it's super in, no  no not them
oh, aye and I
they're just big balls 
Yeah I know what you mean now yeah 
They're just like er a hundred 
Yeah
and they've got a lovely beigey mixture, like aran-type wool
Mm
lovely int it?
Be nice
I'll have a look
say 
Expect  innit 
Yeah 
expensive
beautiful wool and they've got the plain type 
The pink's horrible isn't it though?
Mind them on the Corns will be alright as well
It's thin though Sheila
Oh aye
it wants double knitting you see
well you can get double knit
Not on the Corns I don't think, I've never seen it not in that
Well you can  double knit on your knitting machine
Not on ours you can't
Oh you can on mine
Eh?
Can you?
Yeah  in that pattern book, yeah
No I don't think you can on mine well I've never come across 
Come on then Sammy Jo 
You ain't got the book like, have you got the book with it?
Have ya?
No
Right, go toilet first 
no you can on mine like 
Ah 
I'm taking me pram to Alice's
Your pram, it's no good, not taking your pram  I don't think so  it's no good   Got a nice piece of pork in  
I've finished my coffee again, it must be that cup  in it,w is yours still hot?
No 
Yeah, Stuart's card  did you get a card off ?
No 
They must've forgot
Yeah, why it's not a 
Eh?
Talking to Sharon out there
Oh, thought she'd gone
Yeah  it's about three weeks
Mm
when I won that pork  er she gives us it
Ah
and she says I'll keep it till the week after
to eat to buy the meat, I'm thinking meat cod
No she buys the meat one week then the veg
That's right
then the week after I, I won the beef 
Aye so that 
you see 
Aye  so it's Sharon's turn to buy it, can, Elliott cannot get cheap stuff from the, where Ian works?
No, no
That's odd isn't it cos the chicken factories do don't they?
Yeah , no, cannae get owt, don't know why  er  
Well I've got one chair, ha, stripped and washed on the line 
Oh, these, oh
really are scruffy
yeah I went in for me fags and that lass she stood, she said I'm waiting to see what you saying  I says forty, I says I get forty every day and by Friday 
Is it her with the glasses?
No
Oh
Friday 
I  I never come over there did I?
No, and I were filling me thing out  she says oh fill that one out an'all, so got thirty pence off
Oh good
but she never give us another one
Why didn't you ask?
I know but it
I mean it doesn't matter to them does it?
No 
Oh there was a bloody mine I don't know if they  ninety nine  were they?
I dunno, aye it was in the paper weren't it?
Aye we were gonna chuck it, cut it out yesterday it was about twenty five pence or thirty pence wasn't it?
Save your 
Cos some of them 
Oh aye 
take your coupons here 
I know 
the product aye 
and I keep forgetting mine on the back windowsill
Yeah
Oh I bent the  
and that  with the glasses, has she packed in
there's nine 
you know the little one with the glasses she's  about fortyish
Oh fortyish
Well I'm not very good at the ages like I mean she could be older
Molly?
No
No  glasses 
only a little'un thinnish
short hair?
Aye
Oh she's not forty, she's only a young lass, she's pregnant mind
Oh no 
if it's the one I think
oh no
No?
No
There's one little  fairish, fairish hair, short I think she's  
Aye, oh no I dunno she were pregnant no, I dunno 
This one's got glasses on mind, we always have a laugh with her, there's her and Ann  on the till  and er  
Sue Sue's gone
Who's Sue?
Er  short hair, grey thin
Might be her gr glasses?
Aye
Aye 
Aye might be her right
Aye
Aye she's gone
she's Connie int she?
Yeah Sue, er Julie one of the supervisors  curly hair dark curly hair 
Black 
Aye
thin?
I think she was
Very thin
she was in the office, for, she's gone
Did she come and find the price for your  wool?
Er went to find the price for your wool, the red jacket thing on
Oh I dunno if it's er
black hair?
No
Not that old
Aye he's got black hair, she's got black hair  come and wait 
bad
yeah, his throat, aye
Aye, went to get the price for your wool then
Aye might of been her then, she's only a young lass
Aye
Aye
thin, wore the red
Aye probably her then, er
and Chris that's three
Chris
Ah
Sharon, I think she said Sharon, I will see another day
Aye Pat
What about that lass that lost all that weight?
Well she was  she served me the other day, Dawn
Mm
Tuesday must of been Tuesday if it was the other day
Oh, mind some of them could be working a week's notice, but Chris didn't, he finished that week 
I don't think any of 'em have had
ah they're not 
oh no, cos Val was telling us er
he er, well yester was when Val served us, she says there's nine
well she says for what 
not been there a long time
Aye, she says what they're getting Sheila, she said I've just cut me hours down they, they were working thirty nine and they've cut me down to thirty two, just like part-time thing, like you know 
Mm 
so
oh well, they must've worked it out and find out she's gotta be better off keeping her job
mm, well Ann's still there and her other oldish woman
Is Molly there then?
I dunno Molly works 
Molly wasn't in yesterday was she?
I haven't seen her  I haven't seen her, have you been to Kwik Save lately?
Have you seen Molly?
You know Molly big fat Molly?
Molly's on tills I think
Have you seen, have you seen her this week?
Have you been in?
I think mam said she were in on Tuesday
Oh
Monday or Tuesday
I say I've not seen her
cos she's 
Oh, aye 
she used to have bank counter job though didn't she?
Mm
Aye she used to be at the bank 
Aye, but there's nine been made redundant  Chris, Val says there's, there's nobody in and they have 
And all have er, a cut three hundred working hours
Aye
so  they've done it with nine then eh?
Yeah
All the full-timers then, eh?
Mm  I'll turn that off now

Bob Henry, you must be aware of some of the criticisms which were levelled at the companies which were put out by arts associations, where they say really it's very self-indulgent and nobody much goes to see this particular type of dance group.
What do you say to that?
I would say that it is our job to let people judge for themselves and have the opportunity to see controversial productions, whether it's dance or drama, and unless people have the opportunity, and unless the companies are given the chance to perform their own thing, that drama and dance in the long run will die.
But given the shortage of money, ought not some of that money go towards preserving some of the great companies who are now under great pressure?
A great deal of money does go to preserving those companies like the National, the Royal Shakespeare, etc., and even in this region we have three regional repertory theatres who generally present very establishment shows, very middle of the road productions.
What sort of audiences are you getting?
I mean what sort of percentages do you reckon you're getting in the theatre?
They vary tremendously.
They have dropped very much this last year.
Not just for the type of shows that we are directly responsible for, namely the small scale productions, but also for all theatres, particularly in the South East and in the South.
Could that be an indication that you aren't in fact giving the public what they want?
I would dispute that.
Certainly some of the productions that we are responsible for, as I have said, are controversial, and some of the public might not really want them and might dispute their validity, but I think what it is an indication of is the fact that people are short of money and have to make quite sure that they are getting the best value for what they are paying for and they can't afford to go to the theatre as regularly as they might have done in the past.
But given that you're really in the market place situation, if you have goods which nobody wants to sell then eventually you're going to have to grind to a halt.
Well that is an argument that applies to almost anything that you might be trying to sell, whether it's a commercial product or whether it is an artistic product, and in any case, as I have said before, we also support erm a great many organizations and projects which should, and will, appeal to the general public.
Bob Henry, thank you very much.
Tim Cornish, as Film and Television Officer for South East Arts, how do you think the new film categories are going to affect the sort of things that you're putting together?
I don't think the new film categories are
Just a second, sorry.
Bob, you mustn't rustle.
It's all right.
We'll start that again.
Tim Cornish, as Film and Television Officer for South East Arts, how are you going to be affected by the new film categories?
I imagine by that you mean the new censorship categories from the British Board of Film Censors?
I think by and large that will have no effect on us at all, since most of the independent films that we're responsible for tend to go out under club showings and do not therefore need to have certificates.
Anybody who saw ‘Radio Radio’ might have written that off as a rather self-indulgent film.
Do you think it gave a fair picture of what local radio is about?
I think it gave a fair picture, yes.
I was a little disappointed with the film; I would like to have seen it erm more analytical, a little more hard hitting in terms of looking at what a local radio station does.
erm I found it self-indulgent, I suppose in the sense that perhaps it was too long and the film maker, I think, was reluctant to erm chop some of that material, but I think the great advantage that the film had was that it reached a very wide audience by being shown on BBC South.
But given that you're using public money, ought you not to have a tighter control over this very aspect?
I would dispute that entirely, and I think it's very dangerous for arts organizations to get closely involved in matters of detail in artistic control.
I think the whole nature of artistic practice is that the artist must have a considerable amount of freedom.
A considerable amount of freedom — I don't think anybody would dispute that — but you are actually using public resources, you're using erm highly expensive equipment, do you really not feel that in that situation some measure of at least financial control is essential?
Oh certainly, there was a great deal of financial control.
I mean the film was given a budget, given a grant, and that film was shot within that budget erm there was no problem there.
Tim Cornish, thank you very much.
With me now is Chris Bates, who is the local Arts Development Officer, which includes community arts, Chris?
That's right, yes erm community arts, ethnic arts, touring, low cost building, creative play.
It's quite a wide brief, actually.
Now to many people community arts is a red rag to a bull because there is the feeling that a lot of these things start off quite splendidly as voluntary organizations, and suddenly they've got their fingers in the public purse.
I think a lot of local authorities in particular have now found a tremendous benefit that can accrue from investing in community arts work.
I think that the major difficulty has always been that erm oh I hate this.
I can't handle this at all.
Well, that's exactly why this course is being held.
Let's start the whole thing again.
Chris Bates, part of your brief involves community arts.
Now many people think that this is an area where public money is really being squandered.
If you want to run a nice, happy, little group of amateur people you should be allowed to get on with it, but public money shouldn't be spent on it.
How do you react to that?
Well I think it's, public money should in fact be spent on it.
It is invariably one whereby people have applied for those grants, they have gone through all the normal assessment criteria, which apply to any other art form, and if we feel that they adequately cover all those sort of areas then we respond, but as public body we have to be aware that groups, in applying to us, must fulfil the conditions that we lay down.
What sort of conditions do you lay down?
Well we erm, in the sense that they must be legally constituted.
I mean there are a number of different forms that can take erm they could be a co-operative, registered with a friendly industrial society, or have a board of directors, but there must be a legal personality to the organization in order for them to receive public funds.
Well that's extremely laudable, but I don't think on the whole the public are too worried about whether the thing is legally constituted.
That would obviously be your worry.
But, from the point of view of the public, I think they see money being used to put on bare foot dancers leaping around and so on.
I don't think the public view of community arts is a very good one, do you?
Well I think it's been misrepresentative, misrepresented, sorry, in a variety of ways.
I think the most important thing about community arts is that it's arts for the community, and invariably one is not approaching it in the same way as one would market, say, a show at the Theatre Royal for instance.
It very much involves participation and therefore the appeal for the broader level in terms of the public is less important for those groups that actually participate.
Now ethnic arts is really playing for a very small number of people.
How can you justify using very tight money in a public situation for such small pockets of people?
Well we can justify it very easily because we have a very, very small pocket of money to actually invest in ethnic arts.
Our total budget for ethnic arts is in the region of about fifteen hundred pounds which, as you can probably appreciate in a region representing four million people, does not all us very much flexibility, but we also feel that it's the type of event which we are prepared to support, which is also important.
I think that we look very favourably on schemes whereby an education process is involved erm where there are workshops and performance, but it becomes a total package in itself — it's not just a performance for an ethnic minority, but it's one that represents the fact that we live in a multi-cultural society itself.
Chris Bates, thank you very much.
Thank you.
Chris Cooper, you're fairly new in your appointment as Director of South East Arts.
Have you found that you've got a lot of things to change and alter?
I've found that it's a little early to make judgements about that just yet.
I've found that it was very necessary for me to take some time to get a grasp of what is a very complex situation and it would be rather foolish to jump in too quickly.
Now you must be aware that whenever public money is involved in anything to do with the arts, that there is always a lot of criticism about how that money is spent.
Have you come across this criticism as you go round the area?
I would disagree with the premise erm I've found that where public money is involved in the arts there is very occasionally public criticism of what we do.
For the vast majority of the work that we do there is very seldom any criticism, and in actual fact there is mostly a clamour for more activity and more and better work.
But the bottom line of that is always money, and your money is public money.
Yes, that's quite right, we are in the area of dealing with public money.
We are accountable to the public in many different ways, and we always have to keep an eye on the fact that the public are looking at what we are doing with our money and local politicians and the community's representatives are always anxious to talk to us about what we are doing with that money and we must be prepared to answer any queries or any questions on our activities or those activities of people that we're sponsoring.
How accountable do you feel that you are to the public?
I mean the public is going to say we must have houses, we must have roads, must we have arts?
Well I don't think it's a very easy question to answer erm the Association, and I as the Director, feel accountable through a variety of channels.
We're accountable directly through an Executive Committee and a committee structure, which does involve representatives of almost every local authority in the South East, and we are clearly accountable to those representatives through that particular system.
We are also accountable through the press and local radio in terms that all our work, unlike many other professional bodies, all our work is constantly on show and critics are invited to see and assess and attend and write up the work that we fund, and those criticisms appear in local and regional press daily.
We are also accountable through the box office in terms that your public will not come and see events and pay their money if the events that you're putting on are not of sufficiently high standard, so the accountability runs in three our four different channels and each of them are quite potent and quite immediate in terms of their impact that they can have on the Association.
Well, you say you have representatives of local government bodies and so on, but really how much do you think they contribute in that situation?
Surely an Association such as yours is basically run by the officers, it is a certain amount of window dressing having local councillors, if you like, sitting on your executive.
They don't necessarily contribute in terms of the creative ideas.
Our object is to get the creative ideas from the artists erm and from the artistic groups within the community.
What accountability rests on is that those particular representatives of the local authority have the opportunity to ask any question and have it answered at any time during the three hundred and sixty five days of the year in which we operate, and they are in a specially privileged position to challenge, or question, or talk about, or have answered — any particular point with regard to the work we're involved with.
And to that degree I would say that we're accountable through those particular members.
Christopher Cooper thank you very much for talking to us.
Thank you.
Frances Smith, as Crafts Assistant at South East Arts, what are your actual duties?
They're fairly varied, but they're twofold basically.
Firstly, to look after the professional craftsmen living and working in our area, and secondly to make the crafts more easily accessible to the general public.
When you say crafts more easily accessible, I think a lot of people regard craft as a sort of extension to the Women's Institute.
How do you answer that?
Yes, I think for a lot of people that's true and I don't denigrate that because I think a lot of good work goes on in the Women's Institute, but what we are particularly interested in is in the professional craftsman, the craftsman who has trained for a number of year to produce extremely good work, and what we try to do is to make that work more available to the public in a number of ways.
Firstly through exhibitions and our support for exhibitions organised by other organizations, and also by taking crafts into schools so that we are, if you like, exposing the younger generation to the best in the craft world, in the hope that in the future they will be the buyers of good craft work.
But you must have heard the criticism for things like the pile of bricks, the pile of carpet felt.
Don't you think that that does enormous damage to the general public's view of what arts and crafts are about?
I think for a lot of people, yes, it does, and though the pile of bricks obviously comes under Art with a capital A, crafts perhaps has not suffered quite as much, but I think there is the feeling amongst people that if they get a pot which is, shall we say non-function and won't pour, then is it art or craft?
And I think there is this dividing line that there is the pure craft where the object is functional and is made for a specific purpose, but is beautifully made, but there is also the craftsman who crosses the barrier between art and craft, who makes beautiful objects that are perhaps non functional, and then of course you're in the controversial field.
It's also one of the most exciting areas though.
But anything of this nature, surely, is very subjective.
I think all art to some extent is subjective, but I think that most people would agree that some things are so beautiful that everyone agrees that they are very worthwhile and shouldn't be destroyed.
Sometimes we find things like the Moan Lisa, which have been denigrated and used in lots of different ways, but some people when they see it are still overpowered by the beauty of the object.
Can you really hope to marry the practical arts to what are essentially, I suppose, for want of a better word, the arts of beauty?
I don't really see that there's such a dividing line, because I think if you're a housewife and you have a beautiful milk jug, which is perhaps very simple but has lovely lines to it, I think even if it's only subconsciously you get more pleasure out of using that than you would a rather cracked, grubby, plastic jug.
Frances Smith thank you very much.
Thank you.
Richard Moor, as Deputy Director of South East Arts, you have to work very closely with a number of people, some trained, some untrained.
What sort of problems does that bring you?
Well I think there is, there aren't many problem with the trained people because they've been trained in the same areas as oneself and therefore understand what you're on about.
I think the problems chiefly come with those who are not trained, or who are not familiar with the area of work you're trying to promote.
How do you get over that situation?
Well hopefully by sort of tact and explanation in equal doses.
One has to try and explain what it is we are about and why we're doing it and, if necessary, perhaps point out a few distinctions that may exist, for instance, between the professional and the amateur scene, not that I like using those words because I think they're fraught with all sort of potential misunderstandings.
Now you say you try to explain why you're doing it.
Let me ask you, why are you doing it?
I mean, what is the object of the South East Arts Association?
Well I suppose we have to start with what we're doing.
I don't know whether you want to talk about the whole area of our operation
No, we've only got three minutes .
Well, the visual arts shall we say?
I mean, what we're trying to do in the visual arts is to spend what limited money we have to produce a better situation for the visual artist and for the public who gets pleasure and enlightenment from visual arts than exists at the moment, so rather than just prop up the status quo, which is what is would be very easy to do if one just kept the pot boiling so to speak by giving a few grants to artists here and sitting at the centre of a spider's web in Tunbridge Wells waiting for applications to come in to us and then responding.
I think we need to be a bit more positive than that.
What about people who will inevitably criticise you for a large canvas, half of which is black, and half of which is blue, and which is labelled ‘Blue on Black’.
I mean can you really justify supporting somebody with public money who's producing the sort of work which if I, as a totally unknown person, produced it would be thrown onto a bonfire?
Well I think there's a world of difference.
Yes, I think one could justify that without too much trouble.
erm The basic difference is between abstract and figurative art, say.
The problems with most people, if I can generalise, is that they have been brought up on the notion that a picture has to represent something and that to them means something recognizable, like a tree, or a landscape, or a windmill, or an oast house.
So they get thrown when faced with a canvas which represents nothing other than form or shape or colour and they get thrown because they haven't the vocabulary, it seems to them, to respond to it, and they feel the need to respond verbally.
But I like to look at something and know what it's saying, I mean what is, what is the canvas ‘Blue on Black’ actually saying?
And you are using, and I emphasise again, you are using public money to say it.
Now what you want to do in the privacy of your own home in terms of art is one thing, but if I'm using public money I really need to be able to justify it.
Well I think an abstract canvas can say a great deal.
It's a contemplative thing and what I would recommend you is go to The Tate and sit in the middle of the Rothgo Room there, which is actually a series of canvasses, as you probably know, of a sort of reddish hue, entirely abstract, and you are surrounded by these in a small, fairly dimly lit room, and spend half an hour there and see perhaps whether they work on you.
Most people, unfortunately, think that a picture should have an impact.
They will give it perhaps two to five seconds of their time.
It's very interesting watching people move round an exhibition.
They will stop, for probably about five seconds maximum, before any one work.
Well that's no way to respond to the work of art.
You certainly wouldn't get away with that with a violin concerto or something of the sort .
An artist has perhaps given as much time to a single major work as a composer might have given to a sonata or whatever it may be.
Richard Moor, thank you very much.

which goes across  according to attainment targets.
Now to help you with that  I'd like it back  I've put the attainment targets 
Bloody hell!
Oh God!
for stage one on here so it can just  go across them.
Okay?
Now, this activity though, I, I'm going to ask you report it back so that each group reports to me 
Well Cathi , how you gonna
with the activity  now then I shall 
be able to say to you  which I'll have to say next term when I go in to do my  inspections, I'll have to say to the teacher  er, one 
Oh we should actually have 
what 
our training.
attainment targets are yo , you know what programmes of study are you addressing in this lesson?
And it's gotta be specific.
And two, I will say, how can you, with activity, can you tell me what a level two child should be doing?
Or  what's the difference in this activity for a level two or a level three child?
Okay?
Now that's not quite so easy.
It's damn difficult.
Well, to help you with that  to give you an idea, first I'll the ta the attainment on this one, what to look for.
And this is how 
parts of these statements have been translated.
Don't go into the, this morning when she was doing activity  she said ah, she said I I've got them to spot ten similarities, ten differences, great!
Okay.
But it's not good teaching.
And I said, fine.
I said, so how many of those would grade three, level three child have to get to be at a level three?
And how many of those would a level two child have to get?
And how many would the level one child have to get?
Then you can make it into an easier idea of what I mean.
But, when you're doing that  you make assessment at the end of it to say what level you have, you've got to target specifically at certain things.
It means a bit of cheating , will give you some idea of how they, at level one, on a picture a child, you'd expect a child to pick out  two things about buildings.
Okay?
Or if you were doing water  they could pick out two of the four things that you wanted about water.
So when you're doing this  bear that in mind.
Okay?
I'll try and do a little bit more here  fine, but it's really thinking 
Improvisation is the word.
of  
I know the .
Okay?
I'm sorry, I've forgot a little aid for you.
Erm, I have  one job here  two pages on the  area  and if you look at it it gives you a progression from  sort of pre-school life, nursery activity, right through to  what will  what will be level ten.
I still feel Lyndsey can deal with that one.
Right?
So I'll leave you with 
an example 
Mm.
which gives you some suggestions of what .
Yeah that's fine.
Ha!
Well let's all take one of her things she's giving.
I know.
. Where are you for teaching practice?
Er erm  Saffron Junction.
Oh oh!
Just down the road from here.
Yeah, right Ange.
Yeah right.
Do you want me to start or what?
No, no, no, no.
So
Look, that's wha , what th that's what we've got in our  I mean
So are we planning for five weeks or  planning for five lessons or what?
Five weeks of work.
Five weeks.
Well, what we wanna do is do one, do week by week and then split it up into  day by day.
Yeah.
Like that's your  
Yeah you need to work , go back.
Erm  I was gonna say  yes.
So it was a waste of time?
Honestly , on my life, there were twenty masks
And th , good masks?
Glass cabinets, yeah they were really good, but, that was it, no information, nothing.
Apart from a price list, so we had a price list, and I thought right  so I went to a book shop  and I tried to find a book on masks  nothing.
Apart from this book that was thirty pounds, it had two pages in it.
Oh my God!
Dunno what I'm gonna do.
I really don't know what I'm gonna do.
Go the library.
Yeah, I've been and there's none there either.
Well like  go to your brother's and have a look.
Yeah, I'm gonna have to go there.
I'm planning to lo , I'm just gonna, we'll go, yeah I'm even gonna go to a book shop
Mm.
and get one.
Gotta find one.
Honestly, I've gotta headache.
Why?
I think I'm exhausted or hung over.
I had  I'm getting that way tomorrow night!
I woke up, last night  and Mark had had a really bad dream he was crying his eyes out.
Why?
I don't understand sometimes, like with nightmares, but like I can't seem to remember them and I left .
Ah ah ah!
But I just think I must have had 
Stress.
a really bad nightmare.
When I'm stressed I get really bad nightmares.
Yeah.
Well I've just had really bad night's sleep.
Yeah.
Mind you
That's probably why.
Matthew just made me laugh cos he said like  
So what did Matthew say then?
He just said girls are completely different from, from boys.
It's true , I  honestly, I've heard that said, er said 
I've heard that when we were going shopping tonight, they said to me  before I'd even  
Mm.
It is, isn't it?
I suppose that's what, what it  erm  honestly male  male company's 
I know.
better to be honest.
Yeah.
It really is.
Cos males, what they do if they have an argument  they'll punch it out and then 
Punch, yeah.
they'll be best friends after.
Or er , or they say fuck off and forget about it.
It's freezing in here.
No.
Cra , they're crafty 
It's freezing in my own house, but
I'm not cold at all.
could you find that warm duvet to keep me warm.
It's nice in there.
Is it?
Erm
Mm.
No you said it was your duvet.
I said they've got a duvet in the ward , in my wardro 
My duvet in your wardrobe.
I said we've got a duvet in my wardrobe.
I'll give it to you one day.
Oh yeah.
You can have it.
Oi!
Oi!
Oi!
Oi!
Ah ah!
It's o , it's on , it's only a guest, a guest duvet.
Is it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lisa's got two of those for when Ashley and  you know
But said .
I didn't.
You said 
Lucy you haven't eaten your toast.
What have you done tonight then?
Absolutely Fabulous!
For his birthday
No, well, I know, I think that won't last very long  somehow.
Don't you?
No.
Well I mean 
Are you shocked Mum?
I was really going to do it, honest.
No I couldn't think
So, Helen and Si!
Er
What shall you do with me?
Oh my lady .
Shut the window.
Shut me in the .
Hit me with your rhythm stick .
Hit me hard and hit me quick.
Oh it's six o'clock isn't it?
What?
It's six o'clock.
What's six o'clock?
It's half six.
Oh half six.
That's it.
Yeah.
That's what it says on his little card.
Yes.
Because he was going to sort of like  
Milk up  Nicola didn't believe me when I told her.
She thought I was playing a joke.
What?
When I told her  about this.
Didn't she?
I goes er  oh, I'm recording it for this thing and she goes, oh yeah my big head!
I goes, I am !
But she didn't believe me.
Can I have some sauce please?
There was na , definitely no chance of a walk that day.
But of Jane Eyre there for you.
Whoops!
What a culinary delight this is.
Mm mm.
Indeed.
What?
Indeed.
Indeed.
What exciting lessons did you have today then?
Nothing too exciting.
Well I had  er er er er, oh, what did I have?
Something, P E  maths  English and graphics.
Science, maths, English and graphics.
How come she's so in , you're so interested in  the eleven plus and  everything?
Well we were having a discussion about erm  whether it should be brought back.
Mm mm.
I said definitely not.
Cos it makes rejects of people in society.
And everyone went, what!
As they all do in my class.
Cos they're all thick!
I couldn't believe it right
Well they've all supposedly got intelligent parents by the thi , sound of them.
Well not all of them.
I was sat, I, I was sat there 
Not all thick like me.
I was sat there, and they went who's planning to go onto University or education after eighteen?
So I put up my hand, turned round  and flipping Stuart and Danny had put their hands up and I just went, oh God!
They're gonna 
do really well!
And Terry, total Terry.
Terry, who hasn't got a brain cell to rub together.
Well you mo , he's in your class isn't he?
So?
Ah!
That boy!
This is the one who said  I think we should be allowed to hit girls.
He's
he, two short planks does not describe this boy.
Even Miss hates him.
Now, well you see, she o , we was having this discussion about education and she goes, are you cynical about education Terry?
He goes  no.
She goes   ooh!
She goes, why?
And he goes, I don't know what cynical means.
I was saying, ah no!
And everyone in the class just cracked up.
Sometimes you woth er,whe , you wonder whether he does it on purpose.
He must do it on purpose, no one could be that thick.
How many was thinking of going on?
Ninety five percent.
Oh.
Yeah.
But erm  like Vicky who's got  in her English folder  this is Vicky, you know Vicky  she's got  in her literature she's got nine A's and one B.
And in her other, I don't know what she's got, ten A's probably.
And  she's not going to.
She wants to be a nurse.
Oh does she?
And er  like she said, aren't you Vicky?
And she goes no Miss.
Erm, you can't be a nurse till you're eighteen.
No.
No, you can't go in as a stu er, student.
So like  you know, she's gonna stay on  do A levels  and then go into it.
Mm mm.
Because  she might as well have some A levels just in case or whatever.
But erm  you know, ah  you know, she's, you know  I can understand that actually, she's being quite sensible about it, she said, there's nothing else I wanna do  and I might as well do something I enjoy.
You know, you've only got one life haven't you, when you comes down to it?
Well if that's what she wants to do, that's what she wants to do innit?
Mm.
Like, her Dad said to her, why don't you be a doctor?
And she ju , but she don't want to.
You know, she wants to be in a hospital
Yeah.
like, she don't want to end up in general practice.
Well sh , doesn't necessarily have to end up in general practice does she?
No, but 
Well I mean for the first year she won't be in  if she goes in as a student she'll be in college.
I know, but  it won't take as long for her to get  there   as it will  if she becomes a doctor.
Oh no.
Three years int it, a student?
Mm.
But then you get on-hand experience from it.
Hands on I should say, not on-hand.
But er
Learning how to clean pot er er, bed pans and  make beds and  things like that.
Clearing up sick.
Mhm.
That's her favourite job isn't it?
Mm mm.
You know, I thought of being that once but  I wouldn't mind it in the wards, but I wouldn't wanna be in the operating theatre.
I don't know why.
See, blood don't put me off or anything, but
You don't have to go into the theatre for so long I think.
Mm mm.
But then you can sa , you can specialize you see.
I mean, some nurses go into the theatre all the time once they've qualified, so 
Yeah.
I think that they'll have to go in  you'll have to go into each area.
But like  I mean, I don't mind the blood or whatever, and if they were doing little things  I  could handle it   but like, like on that op op , operation that woman was having the other day  and they cut her open and they just pulled.
Well they do.
And that,tha , that's the thing that makes me red, it's not the cutting  it's when they just pull it apart  and it like 
Well who's gonna know?
rips.
Urgh!
Urgh!
They could have cut it.
Well they do cut it.
No they cut the skin and then they just pulled it apart.
Yeah, because it's not th , not like that underneath.
They, they didn't pull it apart they, they cut down  if they cut down with a knife then they could cut into something couldn't they?
Ooh! oop!
It could be dangerous.
Say you, you open up the top and then the others parts.
The lining.
Urgh!
Urgh!
Yeah but what they ripped was all fat!
All her 
Well 
fat!
Ooh ooh!
Yeah, but you see you've got the, you've got all the, the other things ins , down, down it, underneath, and I mean if you started going in with a knife and you started cutting down, I mean you could sa , cut an artery or  anything couldn't you?
Which could be a bit nasty.
You know.
Hello pussycat!
Buy a little bag for me.
A chick a chick a chick a chicken  .
Hello my .
Ooh!
Whose turn is it tonight?
Mine.
Good.
Well   and if it was David's  the poor dog'd never get taken.
We've seen it on T V,and now it half past three   Come on!
Does that mean you're gonna come flower?
What  I was listening to myself on that.
Mm mm.
Oh!
Is my laugh vile or what?
And my voice.
That's Alices' cos it was .
I only bought one today.
Do you have milk?
Little drop please.
I only bought that to today.
What these?
Mm mm.
Have one.
I was having  
Mm mm.
Good.
That's going round .
I know.
Ooh yes!
And that's my problem, we keeping thinking about another one and doing things.
Yeah.
Is that enough milk.
Mhm.
That's so strong.
Who's is that Golden Crown?
Alices'.
Feeling better?
Er, yes.
Thank you.
Alice's.
That's Alice's shelf, that's mine, the smaller one.
That cakes, that's all ours.
Turn if off.
Leave it running.
Ha?
Yeah.
I didn't put it on.
Orange juice, see we've got this here.
Where?
Lots of different 
Oh yeah.
things there.
Erm 
Whose is the orange juice?
Mine.
Do you want some?
No thank you.
Have you got a cold?
Yeah.
But this cold has been so bad today.
My inhaler, my new inhaler is so weird.
It's one I can suck up, I don't press it down.
It's like .
Oh yeah.
Thank you.
.
Yes.
If anyone picks it up
Lucy do you want a cup of tea?
Yeah please.
Ah!
Yes please Marion.
Yeah the pictures Monday night.
Second one.
Tea or coffee?
Whatever you're making.
Whatever you want.
Tea please.
I don't drink coffee, I was just being polite.
Why didn't  up here?
Cos, cos you don't do any other things.
Oh!
It's so gross!
Yeah.
I've worked out how to use self-timer on my camera.
Ah no!
Er er excellent!
Then you can run in front.
That's what I told Matthew 
Don't have to 
I wanted.
You should get one of them.
I told him I wanted one with a self-timer on it.
Get, my camera it's really good.
How much was it?
Er er, ninety pound I think, can't remember.
Mine was eigh , sixty five and I don't think it's very good.
I got it for my eighteenth you see.
They're brill!
Is your little Fiesta er a  a two-seater?
Yeah.
Go and get that.
Shall we go on that?
I bet 
Go 
it's .
Go!
I was gonna say, I bet you dance round
Anyway, she's gone to bed cos she's knackered.
Cath's always knackered.
That's such a nice .
I like that one.
Ooh!
A couple of  very important announcements first of all.
Erm   books are .
Er erm  is therefore  if I can take it out
Oh!
er erm  well, I know when it is, Thursday the eleventh of November, it's a matinee performance  so it starts at two o'clock.
Okay?
Thursday the eleventh of November, matinee performance, starting at two o'clock  and the tickets are five pounds.
So that's the cheapest we can get.
And then 
That's reading week isn't it?
No 
Sorry?
it's the 
it's er 
week after.
Oh!
The week after.
So .
I won't do it on a reading week, I'll do it 
Thursday the eleventh.
in the lesson week.
Thursday the eleventh of November?
Well, reading week's the first weekend.
Oh.
Okay, Thursday the eleventh.
To catch it, if you want to come you've gotta get a fiver, to me, with your name, by two o'clock tomorrow afternoon cos that's when I have to confirm the booking.
If you want to come, get five pounds to me with your name and  number.
Right, we'll have the
it's a two o'clock  matinee.
Mm?
Thursday the eleventh 
Yeah.
of November.
I probably, won't be able to go.
?
I er well
Probably not, I dunno.
Thursday afternoon's a good  time 
cos it clashes with Geography and English Studies.
Yeah.
Oh alright.
Yeah.
And we will be doing that.
We'll have to bunk off.
You might miss .
Yes.
Just don't quote me.
Can we give you the money .
You can give,well , I'm open to some large cash donations .
Round about now.
Erm
Sorry, when, what would we have to do?
Give you our money 
Give me , if you want to come  I need you, your money basically.
Can we give you a cheque?
You can give me a cheque.
Five pounds.
You can pay  for, a group of you if you want, you know,i if some of are happy to, you know, there'll be two or three of you that will help.
But give me
so that I can then confirm the booking.
So if we just shove the money and P O number, and our number under your door?
Yeah.
Yeah.
What's your phone number again?
I've got my cheque book with me.
We could do at the end of the lesson.
I'll pay you back.
Okay Marion.
I'll have yours as well instead 
Mm.
after that.
Erm, I haven't bought as many tickets as there are people in my two seminar groups
Oh right.
cos I'm assuming that there are some people who  when it actually comes to the crunch 
don't want to go, and there's some who won't be able to go due to other commitments.
But  that means that spaces might actually be erm
Oh!
Limited.
li , limited, is that the word I'm looking for?
Limited, I think.
Right, well I think  erm  right.
Got that.
Where is it gonna be, sorry?
It's gonna be Bath.
Erm, the Royal Shakespeare Company production.
Ah!
I saw it on the thing actually, yeah.
Erm  I wanted to actually arrange a coach if there's enough people sort of please arrange a coach, could do, but  I reckon it's probably easier to go up   
By train.
don't you?
Mm mm.
Er er, on the train.
Even if it was the day we'd be sort of coming back
Get the traffic.
in the rush hour.
Yeah.
Mm?
So that again, talk about
Sorry?
Erm, I never asked er, any B A Q T S course?
Okay.
Listen up, this is important.
It has been decided  the powers that be, are onto the something  that  you are going to do your first semester exam in June.
Oh what!
Not the semester 
Shit!
just been.
Okay?
What's that?
It will not be the same paper needless to say.
When was ?
February.
Why's 
Okay?
that then I wonder?
Why is that?
Is there any reason?
Erm  no, this was told to me, I presume this was discussed as some sort of  
No it's not.
We do the exams the week before, er before.
Erm
Yeah.
well I suppose we won't have enough time to prepare for teachers though.
No.
The teaching's far more important than English obviously.
It came, the decision came from  your  the education department.
Yes, well, another cock-up 
Er er, the English department.
there.
Are they for  or second years?
The exams  on first semester work  is June.
Okay.
That's enough of that.
So by the time we sit our exam we'll have forgotten al , what we've done?
Yeah you'll have re-read all of it.
Great!
Ha ha!
Super!
Bloody hell!
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I thought I was gonna go, go home early at the end of the second semester cos I'd have my exams.
Oh oh.
You were wrong!
Right.
Can we turn to tho that work sheet please?
And, as, I, I know the people who were here last week, the questions for act one  scene one or two will be relevant to the second part of the seminar, it will be, but we'll ignore them at the moment.
So, go straight onto act two, scene three.
Okay.
Er erm  first question there.
What do we learn about the opening, the opening and closing scenes  of the two acts?
Anything?
Er er
Does it say that?
Erm  er er, what would you learn from them?
Right.
And what we learn about them .
Yeah.
Okay.
So, he's  he's thoroughly mad by this stage and er, he  er obsessed with Mrs  from .
Er erm  does anybody spot any of the progression in the speech?
From  where he starts  to where he ends?
Does he go through any ?
Feel sorry for Saffron  's son.
Mm.
Yes.
Although he still believes that what he's done is right, that er  that his wife has se deserves what she's got.
That's my  er  well    er illness 

You know Les up the garage?
Yes.
Les.
Yeah.
He got asked out by that Kate.
Ain't he got big?
Ain't he got 
You know Kate?
The bleeding fat girl, he got asked out by her.
It's in there.
She wrote him a letter.
Going out!
Is it?
Going out.
Just
don't get all mucky.
Hello.
Hello.
Say hello.
You say hello.
Ooh!
You don't wanna lick that.
No.
No, go on.
It's like with that .
Eh?
No.
Aargh!
Gotta see them next time.
Back  though ain't they?
It ain't.
He said no.
No.
See, I was a bit shocked, you know, Mike said he went to  Chessington was it?
Yeah.
Ha ha!
I learn everything
Why did you  when we were here?
What?
Why didn't you do that when we were here?
When
They are massive.
when we were out where?
Hold on.
Go on the er
He put him on the
Bat ride.
lorry driver
Bung it in there.
or the boat or whatever it is.
The pirate ship.
On the back seat, I got him on it.
Was his face
You've seen it on the one that had gone over.
We ain't been on it yet.
Oh.
Bloody hell!
I wouldn't go on that.
Where you hang upside down in the air and
Stop bouncing that ball!
What?
Stop bouncing that ball!
Urgh er .
Great .
Here are.
Pass the ball.
I love that skill.
So have you got anything new since I've been away?
Dunno.
Got any new games for your computer?
No.
It's fucked innit?
You must have fucked it up.
Why what's the matter with it?
You know the little box that goes into the back of the telly
Yeah.
took the wires out.
Who did?
.
Why?
He's a prick.
He's a prick?
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Come upstairs and listen to this tape?
Blinding tape!
Do you wanna hear it?
I can't be bothered.
Come on Chris, listen.
It's funny man I te 
Bring it down here.
Nah.
It's better you got them speakers.
It's enough funny man I'm telling ya!
Come upstairs, play on the hi-fi.
I I  bet you any money you laugh.
Hello.
Did you train him to wee on the thingie now?
Yep.
Found that
Gets up the stairs now.
Gets up the  stairs now ?
Yeah he , even when he go upstairs he can't get down though.
Can't get do , get up but can't get down .
Shall I show Michael Mum?
Yes.
Steve !
No don't take him up there Chris.
Ah go on.
I just want 
No I said it's just 
Just 
started to make him not well again.
Just  up the 
I said 
stairs?
no.
No.
Ah.
Ain't he nice.
Can we get one Mum?
What?
One of these dogs?
I want one.
Yeah, hang on.
Just gotta stop it.
Stop bouncing that fucking ball!
Chris, stop bouncing that ball.
You haven't taped that have ya?
What?
The ball?
No.
I dunno what they'd say if you did.
Leave him there.
Leave him Chrissy.
He's sick if you help pick him up.
Yeah?
Yeah.
Well that's why Mark still won't pick him up.
What are you doing here?
What a nice pleasant lot.
I know.
Eh?
You could be a .
Who?
You.
Why?
Well it has just not come through.
Just leave it on.
Where's he gone then?
Chris!
What you doing?
Come here.
You don't wanna be?
What shall we do?
It's boring.
Two days, two hours, and twenty seven minutes.
What?
That's how long it's taking you to do on the paper.
Apparently so.
Oh yeah, and  twenty two seconds.
That thing's really good innit?
Well apparently it's .
Mm mm.
I think I got it in a shop  on the  where did I get it?
I got in this chemist in the shops there didn't I?
Yeah, down Basildon, or Pitsea weren't it?
Mm.
That's where I got bike from
Did you go in, go in that little 
Sorry, you got your 
pet shop?
Did you see a tiny little pet shop?
Where did you park?
No, must have been  in a car park.
Wha 
What one?
Tesco's one?
Yeah, must have been.
Well you know the one through there on the left the little one.
Yeah I know where you mean.
Yeah, we used to go 
Steve.
there.
Yeah I've seen him 
That's all I buy.
go in.
my mascara.
Well, oh bloody hell 85 135 
I don't see yours though.
Mi , mine isn't bad
I mean that one out there is, like the same as the one I had but it's E F five which is  fuel efficient, you know, like it's got the extra fuel efficient, and it really is  it's good on petrol.
Unless Steve 
That is 
lo , used to eat it.
Stevie left the car outside the house with over a quarter of petrol.
Must be there's something wrong somewhere.
Ooh!
Terrible.
He's  come out and it's nearly on the red.
I said well how do you think
I reckon there's something wrong with it.
I mean you don't put a fiver in to go  and then, then have to put more in to go to bleeding  erm  Wickham and back.
No.
I mean, that, Christ!
It ain't that far.
Oh I'll have to go now, gotta do some shopping.
Only just fucking got here!
No!
Been here ages.
Have not.
You're like the old man you are, go somewhere, stay five minutes and then go.
Yeah.
So are you.
Excuse me?
Yeah.
You ain't much different.
Who?
You.
Stayed with you for
Yeah, cos I made you a sandwich and you sat in the garden chair.
Don't make no difference.
Had one of my plants out there that has bloody gone now!
Told him not to do the garden  until I've finished.
Buds are that big, every time he went to thing he snapped it off.
In the pot thing.
Who Dad did, snapped it off?
Oh I had to 
wall onto him.
Well I had to climb over the wall and fucking jump there.
Are you gonna watch the rest of that.
I ain't got no cash.
Well I better be, bloody go.
Alright.
I'm off.
And make sure you got the steak.
Yeah I still got the steak.
It's no 
But it 
it is nice.
Yeah.
Told ya.
Yeah we had that didn't we?
Saves you leaving all them taters.
Mm.
Peas and
It don't
Two hours.
take that much does it?
No it was lovely.
Mm.
Cooked it slow and long.
Mm mm.
It was nice.
Chops.
Did I give you them?
Yes, and I loved them.
Oh you asked me
Mincemeat, will that 
Very nice.
do ya?
Haven't used the mince.
Braising steak.
Haven't used that.
That was it.
No there was more than that.
Oh.
And bacon?
Spare ribs though.
Yeah?
What about ?
I don't buy things like that cos it never gets eaten in my house.
Mm mm.
It's a waste of fucking money.
That weren't bad really, I mean, you bought all that meat.
Will he have chickens and that up there now?
Dunno.
Shall we go on up there?
If you want.
Are we going, yeah?
Got a bad back?
Ah Mum, it's killing me!
No I'll come.
Oh stay here with the dog, alright?
And then you can shut all the doors and everything.
He int gonna climb out of windows is he?
You wanna walk him, not go in the car.
!
Ah man!
Ah man!
Come on then.
You gotta  go at least a hundred 
Come on then.
yards!
Come on then.
Go away!
Get off!hoo hoo hoo.
You've been 
Been sick.
here nearly every weekend for over four weeks now.
Oh I don't know.
Your father wonders what's happening, I reckon he thinks I'm trying to pinch you don't he?
Mm!
Yeah, well I think I'm down this weekend cos I don't know what I'm doing this weekend.
Dunno.
I might be on shift work.
Yeah.
If I get any work.
But you can always come down, cos you got a key ain't you?
Yes.
I mean Dad'll pi , if I'm working don't bother.
But I mean, if I'm only doing shifts  night shifts then you can come down and get yourself in, right?
I'll let you know anyway what I'm doing.
Alright then.
But, we'll take it that I'll see you, not next week, but the week after.
Alright then.
Yes.
So what are we going down there?
What are we having for dinner tonight?
Dunno.
That braising steak.
Might actually.
We could have done that.
Oh yeah.
Kentucky Fried Chicken.
And an hour down the golf range.
Live the high life.
What?
You're getting a bit beyond.
You what?
Live the high life.
Oh.
What happened to your doors on the kitchen?
Erm, we had to get .
Oh.
Why, what's wrong with them?
Hanging the back.
Mm.
, what happened to the doors?
Oh they just come off.
Where d'ya get them doors?
Them ones?
The black ones?
You know the shop, erm  
I was watching the fire engines.
Mhm.
Is the great Bill on?
Oh!
Here he goes again with his ball.
Oh stop bouncing please.
Is dad here?
Yes.
Oh hold on.
I might get some meat and that for tomorrow.
Alright then.
Bloody hell!
Think I shall stop this now.
You had it on?
Yeah.
Did he win?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Knocked them out in the tenth round.
You know Lennox Lewis wants his next fight.
That means  there'll be two  British, England's, for Great Britain heavyweight boxers fighting for World title.
And Lennox Lewis is a heavyweight world title.
And the only English person to win that will back is somebody  .
Oh.
Well no one can see ya.
Well,.
You alright on that settee?
Yeah why?
It's quite comfy to lay on it..
Don't get too lippy boy!
Grapes please.
Go and make me a nice cup of tea Mike?
I'll always make you a nice cup of tea.
Mum never makes a cup of tea does she?
I always make the tea.
I made you one just a second ago.
Michael had one didn't ya?
It's not the point.
I know he don't.
Well I offered though.
Go on.
You make me one.
Come round for dinner .
What have you been up to?
Nothing.
Eating.
Any phone calls?
Nah.
Why are they all  ?
At least I ain't washing your car tomorrow.
Ah ah!
Diddums!
Yeah.
Oh!
What's the matter with you?
What's your life revolve round washing people's cars?
Yeah it does Steve.
You won't get a  car now anyhow.
I know.
Old X reg.
And a white one, fucking hell!
Send it back again.
With a seam of .
He's got a  er erm    H reg ain't he George?
Mm.
Got a K reg.
When we went to see that one with er this
What it's his car?
Tell you what, it's in better bloody nick than what my old E reg was.
What?
That isn't hard is it?
That car  better condition than what my o , my one was.
And what is it, six years older?
Yeah.
But has he had it since new?
Other than the  wheels I think.
the one with the, like ?
Mm.
Aha.
You, not the 
Oh what the ones with the R S turbo sign on them?
What?
What is it then?
I don't know.
Not really a car person are you?
Not really in with it are you?
Let's face it, you're not really one of the boys are ya?
Well see you're eight years older than me.
Not really.
I knew about them when I was bloody  ten!
I knew the ins and outs of one of them.
Mm.
I even knew how much smoke fumes come out from nought to sixty.
You know why?
They ain't got them though
Still ain't got one.
Little Fiesta Festival.
Ain't even mine.
Is there any petrol in there?
Mind you, it's so dark I can't see it.
I pu , I just put a fiver in and takes, takes, turn the battery and it's .
I didn't know it was that high.
What?
I wouldn't rate it that high.
It's only worth about hundred pound.
She'll have to pay me hundred to fucking take it.
Make us a cup of tea boy.
No!
Are you ever gonna leave home though?
Oh don't start!
!
Well don't you enjoy him being here  making you laugh?
And costing you millions?
Yeah, he's costing me fucking money!
I'd rather be working.
Ah ah!
Oh God!
You don't really mean it?
Mm.
Drunk your tea?
He won it.
Keep smiling.
Er er, er er, urgh.
He shot him.
Yow!
Did you tell your dad you went on a bike ride?
Yeah.
Oh.
I was telling Christine.
He don't know Christine does he?
What?
Well he's seen her but
Mm.
Oh my God !
So what are you doing tomorrow?
Nothing just sitting down.
Are you going out tomorrow?
Ha?
If you're going up to London after dinner let us know.
I want some .
!
Oh Mum I ain't gonna go up there in the .
Did they have a lot?
It'll cost you about three hundred pound to go up there and back.
What you going in then?
Going in yours.
I'll get the train.
I will.
I think I'll get done better as well.

It's the Wensley Gate,Group.
The tape recorder is now running, I hope that it's going to be recording, but let us not erm, be inhibited as a result of that.
Erm, programmes, erm, haven't got a programme.
No.
Erm, I haven't got a programme.
Thank you.
You haven't got a programme, the very last one.
Wh what, how how very carefully calculated that was.
Erm, we are today, going to do the Black Sheep of the Family, erm, because erm, erm, doesn't feel that he he's up to doing the one that he thought he would do this week.
That will be postponed probably for a fortnight.
Can I remind you, erm, looking at that programme, that, erm, healthy eating now appears on, I think it's the, sixteenth of March, and sadly I shall be here on the sixteenth of March.
I shall be in Leicester at any rate, and I may very well come and join you, to talk with you about healthy eating.
I was hoping to miss that one, because you might be trying to persuade me that I should erm, partake rather more of healthier food, than of the unhealthy food that I do eat.
Er, it is.
Yes, it is it is a project study, and therefore it would be as well, if we were all thinking about it in advance.
It it is in tha the hand-book.
Er, it's on page a hundred and thirteen.
And the idea is that as we've done with previous erm, discussions, if each one could come along armed with some information to do with healthy eating, erm, there's a list on page a hundred and seventeen, that might start you off thinking.
Erm, celery, low fat dairy products, incidents of heart disease for those who have an olive oil rich diet.
I don't olive oil, that's the trouble.
No.
Formic acid can be helpful to pregnant women.
Well that certainly doesn't apply to me.
No.
No.
Twenty two heaped teaspoons full of sugar every day.
Well, considering I have none, somebody's having an awful lot.
Er, and eating will be always one of, and so on, there's a few items there, that you might like to concentrate on, and perhaps, as much as anything, if you have your minds open in the intervening number of weeks.
If you see an article, a snippet, er, a comment, from a newspaper, from a magazine.
Cut it out and bring it along, and I think it will all add to our discussion of healthy eating.
I will try and remind you about that, er, on other occasions, so that it doesn't er, slip into the recesses.
Er, and the other thing, just to comment on the programme.
I hope that we shall have the Deputy Lord Mayor, er, Bob  on the last Wednesday of our session.
The reason the programme's taken so long, was to find a time when he's available.
That Wednesday is in the school holiday, although we shall be continuing.
It means that he can slip out of school, er, in the afternoon, when normally, in nor on a normal school day, he would not be able to do that.
Erm, so I'm hoping that that will work, it's it's down in the diary for him to do that, and and I've given a little note about what the Adult School is all about.
And I'll write to him to confirm, and er, if I do bump into him, I shall jog memory of that one.
Erm, with the change of programme, then, the Black Sheep of the, of the Family.
Er, which I have already found.
It is on page a hundred and thirty- nine, for those of you who wish to er, follow.
It starts off with.
Baa Baa Black Sheep, Have you any Wool?
How does the black sheep of the nursery rhyme appear to children?
Other sheep they see, are unlikely to be black, so a black sheep is different.
They soon learn that anyone referred to as a black sheep, is not only different, but is regarded as being in disgrace.
This is all politically incorrect.
Yes, yes, yes it is, indeed,
I was thinking about that.
isn't it, nowadays.
Wh wh wha what shall we do, if they were saying a black sheep?
Erm.
A green one.
Erm, a green.
Yes, yes, yes.
I don't think you can even say, non-white, can you, nowadays.
Yes.
A Jacob.
a Jacobs sheep.
A Jacob.
A Jacob's sheep.
Yeah.
Well,per yes, that's er, yes.
A Jacob's sheep.
So I do I don't know.
Is a, a Jacob's sheep is black, is it.
Yeah, it's black.
you know.
Mm.
No, they're, they're dark brown.
A ger a ger, yes, a da a dark co a dark coloured.
Like chocolate.
Yes, dark coloured.
Mm.
Mm.
Can't fit the notes in for that.
He he hear we go again, and ev even things, we can't say sheep.
Well, I mean, isn't it, got it's sexist overtones or it is 
Erm, you mean to say sheep, as opposed to ewe, or 
Oh, come off it.
Someone was saying on television 
one said, one of those, er petrol weekend things, about all the black things, and they they were saying, you know, the black a black mood.
Somebody's in a black mood, they ob were objecting to that.
Yes, yes, yeah.
Life's a bit short for all that, isn't it.
Isn't it about time this silly nonsense was laughed out of court, and have done with it.
Yes.
Yes, quite.
I think we should forget these 
Yes, yes, yes.
I think it's absolutely right.
So erm, instead of black, and we shall, we shall continue to say 
Yes.
black sheep, they are, and black they they are, so they are black sheep.
In this dictionary of phrase and fable.
Brewer equates black sheep with bet noir, the eyesore in the flock, a disgrace, something unpleasing.
Sheep used to be of great importance to the British economy.
Black sheep was often despised by shepherds, and their wool was less valuable.
Nevertheless, even black sheep were used for export.
Okay, that's that's the bit of erm, sheep background.
The nursery rhyme then, comes from Tommy Thumb's Pretty Song Book from around seventeen forty-four, and the division of bags, one for the master, one for the dame, one for the little boy who where wherever he is, lives down the lane, is said to refer to the export tax on wool, which was imposed as far back as twelve seventy-five, making even the outsider sheep of value.
So black sheep are different.
The term is used negatively, but the black sheep of the family maybe an attractive person, someone with a sparkle, with a courage to be different, with a courage to defy the norm.
Everyone, is says, can think of black sheep of their acquaintance.
Every can you think of a black sheep of your acquaintance, do you do you.
No, I don't whether I can.
Not  acquaintance.
Perhaps I've, perhaps I've, perhaps I've mixed in a very sheltered society.
Perhaps family history, perhaps, but not the very  
Yes, yes.
No.
I don't think er, and of course, er, again perhaps the idea of a black sheep, has changed over the years.
Erm, circumstances which made someone, perhaps fifty years ago, considered to be the black sheep of the family, wouldn't necessarily be the same now.
No.
Mm.
Erm, spivs.
I I don't think I had anybody in my family who was a spiv.
But there was somebody in in the street where I lived, who was a spiv, and he was considered to be the black sheep of the family, didn't quite fit in when everybody else did.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nowadays, you know, erm, don't know whether that sort of thing 
Enterprise, culture.
En enterprise, culture, yes indeed.
Yes, yes.
Er, I mean in the olden days, they used, they they usually the  sent to the colonies or, sent into the army or or into religion, weren't they.
Mm.
Mm.
Mm.
Also, we are a much more tolerant society, generally.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
We can encompass people who are a bit different nowadays, which they couldn't.
Yeah.
Couldn't in those days.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
I think they use the phrase now, do their own thing.
That  yeah, yeah, yeah
Mm.
Mm.
Mm.
Yes, yeah.
So we now have erm, reference to the bible and the erm, prodigal son.
The prodigal son was a black sheep to his father, and to his older brother.
But how different were the reactions of the two.
His adventure started off quite normally, as I'm sure you'll remember from the erm, from the parable.
Every child must break away from the parental fold, and establish his own personal identity.
Things began to go wrong when he got into bad company.
He had then asked for his share of his inheritance.
He wanted it then and there, not later.
With money in his possession, was he a pray to the unscrupulous.
I'm sure he was.
He had journeyed into a far country.
That showed initiative.
But did it cut him off from the guidance he needed?
The story relates, that he spent all.
He was not prudent enough to have saved, so he began to be in want.
Having came to the  he was hungry, so he was glad to be h hired by a local farmer as a swine herd.
Even the pods he was giving to the pigs, he would have liked to have eaten himself.
He decided to go home, and offer to be a servant instead of a son.
But his father was overjoyed to see him, and at once threw a party.
His elder brother coming home from the fields and hearing dancing enquired what was going on.
When he heard the explanation, and that even the best calf had been killed, the fatted calf had been killed, to help the party he was furious.
And that is understandable.
At this point, we are then asked to consider, does the elder brother become the family black sheep, is there a sort of change of position.
I don't know what  
I wouldn't think so.
No.
a brother.
The story makes its point to the finish.
Mm.
Mm.
So th they,yo yo you couldn't see a situation where the person who er was previously in disgrace, was no longer in disgrace, and the one, the the the brother, then showing je jealousy, was himself in disgrace.
Sounds like fiction.
Sounds like fiction.
No, it's just the father's attitude that changed, not the way that 
Mm.
Mm.
Well, he, he was repentant, he was only repentant because he was hungry.
Yes, yes, yeah, yeah.
Can you stop being a black sheep then, did did did he stop being a black sheep when he came back.
Was that the end of the story, as Trevor was saying.
Well, he certainly gave the father the opportunity to say, I told you so.
Mm.
Mm.
Done, Yeah
Mm.
Or he could say I was one 
I was one of the black sheep, but I'm no longer.
I'm no longer, yes.
The next, the next question is is jealousy another powerful promoter of family black sheep.
I'm not quite sure what that means.
Is is is is jealousy another power promoter of family black sheep.
It is jealousy that pushes people into being  black sheep, into er doing something which is not acceptable.
Yes, I think it can  part of it.
Mm.
Mm.
You know one sees, rightly or wrongly, that the other one is having preferential treatment.
Yeah, yeah.
And getting attention seeking.
It could well have been the jealousy of the older brother, what caused him to be thought of as a black sheep.
Black sheep, yes, yeah  So jealousy is quite powerful, could could be the driving force, between sons, yes.
sons.
In those days when there's land expected.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
This, by the way, erm, it it is applied with this study, and that is during the thirties, particularly on the, well it it actually carried on into the forties, but but the, there was a almost a  character in many plays, where one one character was, in effect, the family black sheep.
Erm, there was  in Eden End, erm, there was another character in erm,there was a further one in 
Oh, yes.
Yeah.
Now, all these were black sheep, they were the nicest of the lot, and there was no, they were the ones you turned to, if you wanted to discuss your troubles.
Not the other respectable brigade, and indeed in Eden End, the whole play turns on the jealousy of the sister, who remained at home.
Mm.
The the family black sheep, the other sister went, er, er, left home to go on the stage.
But of course, when she came back, all sorts of things began to happen, that's by the way.
One other little point, in Brideshead Revisited, there's a character who never appears, she's always spoken about, and thwarted and that is  the man who Brideshead marries, and she says, talking to Julia, Julie was no better than she should have been.
You know, she says, in every Catholic family, er, there is always a relapse person, and it's usually the nicest.
Aw.
Mm.
So even Evelyn Waugh's  told this story.
Yes,
Yes, yes, yeah.
So a again, the idea of perception comes into it, doesn't it.
It's it's the way,
, yes.
Erm, the person is perceived and and and the perception may not be accurate.
It it that it may be influences, er, at work there.
Erm, the the the suggestion was then, that the two young men and the the parable of the prodigal of son, started off as insiders, but in turn, they became outsiders in in in in some way.
Erm, and the final short paragraph of that section refers to the parable of the lost sheep, er, not necessarily of black  in colour, but deviant in behaviour, figuratively a black sheep.
I'll leave you to to look up that one, and erm, and and read if you want to do.
A section then on Branwell Bronte.
A short life, you erm, you you you perhaps will be able to contribute from your knowledge of erm, Bronte, particularly of Branwell Bronte.
Branwell Patrick Bronte, dates eighteen seventeen to eighteen forty-eight.
Was the only son in a family of six.
From Mrs Gaskill's life of Charlotte Bronte, and from Barbara and Gareth Lloyd-Evans, companion to the Bronte's.
It seems clear that Branwell had so much potential, he might have been as successful as his sisters.
What went wrong then.
His sisters also had to bear tragedy.
Branwell was only four when his mother died.
Before he was nine, two of his sisters, Elizabeth and Maria had also died.
How difficult for an imaginative and a sensitive child.
He was loved and looked up to by his sisters and aunt, and his father unstintingly spent time, energy and money on him.
Eventually his sisters, especially Charlotte lost patience with him.
But when he died, the family was anguished by his loss and his unfulfilled talent.
He painted, he wrote poetry and stores, but he lacked discipline and become an alcoholic.
Charlotte letters showed how bored she was by her limited home environment.
Was boredom part of Branwell's trouble, too.
It was Branwell, who suggested that the Harworth parsonage should publish its own magazine, but after the third issue, it was Charlotte who took over the leadership from him.
In the short period, when Charlotte was away at school, that's January eighteen thirty-one, to May eighteen thirty-two, he was writing well.
Essentially a creative person, he was unpredictable, and became self-destructive.
As an artist, Branwell went to London to seek admission to the Royal Academy Schools, but he lost heart, as soon as he arrived, and never even began.
He became more and more depressed, and sought consolation in the local pub, where he was soon well known as a talkative character.
Encouraged by his father and several friends, Branwell acquired an artist's studio in Bradford, where, at first, he made an effort, and cultivated influential friends.
But, sad to say, talking and drinking got the better of him, and his work deteriorated.
Twice he became a tutor, but he neglected his work.
In one case he had an affair with the mistress of the house, which led to his dismissal.
He had a period as a railway clerk at  Bridge, but was dismissed because of a deficit of eleven pounds.
As Barbara and Gareth Lloyd-Evans say, it's impossible to know how the money disappeared.
Embezzlement forgetfulness, inefficiency.
Did Branwell grow up.
He promised to much.
He was his own worst enemy.
Like the prodigal son, he wasted his substance in riotous living.
Er, it's a bit of back background then about Branwell.
You know anything about Branwell.
isn't it.
Mhm.
Erm, that his father didn't make him go to school.
Mm
Er, there's a suggestion that he had mild epilepsy, and they tried to keep it quite, and his father tutored him at home.
So he didn't have a normal life a boy of his circumstances in those days.
Would have, yes.
It was more lonely, there weren't other boys around him.
Mm.
Mm.
There weren't other people around him, except his family.
Yeah, So,
Didn't help an unstable character.
That may have contributed, yes, yes.
yeah.
Any other 
Plus the rather powerful father figure.
Mm.
Mm.
Yes.
Which tend to 
.
Yes, I I think, in cer in in most cases that would happen, wouldn't it, if if if the child starts off with a feeling of insecurity, with possible instability.
Mm.
Then a powerful father is going to make the situation  worse.
Because him being the only son.
Mm.
He was probably spoilt by his sisters, and and got more or less what he wanted as a child, and
As a child.
Carried on  you know, what I want, I get.
Mm.
in adulthood.
What is this, thirty, thirty, how old was he, thirty-one when he died.
Thirty-one.
Oh, yes.
Thirty-one very very young age, for someone, apparently so so talented to die.
Think there were drugs as well as the drink.
Oh well, that 
Yes, yes, yes, yeah.
Not mentioned there, but doubtless.
That is, that is true.
Okay, the next thing, erm, accurate or not, Trevor and I have already sa erm, talked about this, erm, many an Adult School members will remember the enthusiasm and popularity that surrounded the future Edward the eighth, when he was Prince of Wales.
Prince of Wales it is suggested erm, was a black sheep of the family.
Here it was thought, was a man who understood the people and  for them.
Someone with a genuine concern for the wounded of World War One, the miners of South Wales, the unemployed, for, and homeless in general.
In slightly less than a year, citizens high expectations had been shattered and it was all over.
As John Parker put it, in the King of Fools, he had it all, wealth, charm, good looks, and he threw it all away on an American divorcee, who even his closest advisers considered an adventuress.
On the folly of his Nazis connections.
On the absurdity of his get rich quick schemes, which involved him with shady financiers.
Why?
This much travelled man, with all of his promise was at best, a controversial figure, and at worst a family black sheep.
He could have said with Hamlet, The Time is Out of Joint, and Cursed Spit that Ever I was Born to Set it Right.
Edward, known as David to his family, did not want the role of Kingship, but then, neither did his brother Bertie.
Many would say that as George the Sixth, he succeeded where Edward had failed.
George had discipline.
A sense of duty, a loyal wife and children.
Affection bringing with it devoted support, brought success from a role undertaken reluctantly.
Edward said he could not fulfil the role without the support of the woman he loved.
Some family black sheep are making a bid for affection.
Edward had the attention of the whole world, but without adequate personal affection, it was of no avail.
On December the eighth, nineteen thirty-six, time of the ab abdication, the Times published a singularly apt quotation from  A Hopeless, Throneless King, Loathsome to Men Below To God's Above a Sad Example of the Slights of Life.
What is your view of the way Edward was treated after his  abdication.
And none of us admits to being alive when all this happened, we, that goes without saying.
Absolutely.
I did see him as a six year old child.
So  yes, as a 
Visited our town, our  town.
He was a six year old child.
Erm, I was a six year  
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah.
So wh wh what do you think of the the attitude that was displayed towards him after the abdication?
He was very, very, generously treated.
Far too generously.
I mean, he he could  five hundred thousand pound on a Christmas present to his bride.
My God.
Mm.
He was more or less paid to go away and keep his head down, wasn't he.
Yeah.
No matter what the cost.
Most of the cr 
Now it's all over,attitude, push it all away.
Yeah.
All the here , a lot of the hereditary jewellery never, never got found.
No.
No.
After he had gone.
It was the er, either they  they er
Yes, I think they  off.
say something.
Mm.
So he he was he was paid off in in er, in a way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Allowed to  
Yeah, they had to.
Go away and keep quiet, and 
Yeah, yes.
It all 
Of course, the erm, the interesting thing is, that he wasn't the black sheep of the family.
No.
No.
Without going into the question of the character whose characters have always been brothers,
Mm.
At all, he was the one in the family who was locked up, chuck.
I know.
Even when the,nea al almost almost  the night before he er, he he went abroad.
Erm, his successor said, this is the man we're going to loose.
He's the best of the lot, I mean, it may not be saying a lot,
Mm.
But he was the best of the bunch.
Mm.
You know from  purely from er, that point of view.
But the suggestion is that he was the black sheep, because he gave up the throne for a woman.
And that that changes him almost overnight, from being the idol of the masses, to being the black sheep of the family.
Just to just to
at all, no sense of dedication, because the job which he knew was going to be his, before he met the this Simpson.
Mm.
Mm.
Mm.
Must have guessed what a burden it was 
He was a complete  wasn't he?
Yeah.
Yeah.
A burden to his brother 
Yes, yes, yes.
He must have been aware of that.
But she was under his, er, he was under her influence, she was a domineering woman, and erm, she was a stronger character than he was, and she thought she could erm, get away with it, and she didn't.
She thought, she thought she be Queen consort.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's right.
Yeah.
The best that could be said 
Queen Mary, she stood no chance.
The best that could be for the the Simpson woman is that at least when they had married, she stuck to him right to his death.
Yeah.
Mm.
Yeah, I think she made him very happy.
Well, you wouldn't think so to look at the photographs, would you.
Well, I know, I know.
They went around the world sponging on friends.
Yes.
I don't now how ever long it was.
And I think, I mean, you know, he'd enormous popularity, the famous photograph with the Welsh miners, something must be done.
Well, in fact, what did he do?
I mean, he he, the next Prince of Wales, the present one, whatever one thinks of him, and perhaps, whatever one thinks of of of his alleged mistresses and so on and so forth, he's done a terrific lot of of achievement in in interest in the arts,
Yeah.
managing er erm, his estates.
He has done a lot.
Mm.
Mm.
performance.
Whether or not he makes a good King, we shall have wait and see.
Well, at least his backed up his ideas with practical solutions.
He has, he has.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think he would make a good King.
I think he would make a most splendid King, but I mean, that's not what we're here, really discussing.
But he has to be careful not to be the black sheep of the family.
Mm.
Mm.
Mm.
Yes.
I'm a bit 
I got, I got, I got a number to choose from, certainly yes, yes, yes, yes.
Oh well, this has always been the case, hasn't it.
I mean, it's only because the press and the media generally know all about it,
There's so much  
in the past, that's been given, just about every one of them, I mean.
Mm.
I think in that position,would be very easy to stray from the straight and narrow.
Yes, yes, yes.
Mm.
I can imagine it would be, because perhaps, erm, the higher you are, not only is it more easy to fall, but it's more easy to be tempted.
Temptations are there.
Mm.
Yeah.
Mm.
Well in these days,but I mean years and years ago, I mean you, people didn't know what half of that's going on because there wasn't the media coverage any way.
Mm.
Did did the what?
In in what sense,
In in in any sense, I mean, we'd may not know the true, but we know something goes on, don't we,.
Well, I I I mean, it, it, it's nothing to the stories that were circulating in the late Victorian period about the Duke of 
Mm.
Oh yeah.
Who physically the present Prince of Wales resembles.
But it didn't sort of the world-wide coverage that er,
Th th th yes, there is, there is an immediacy about
Yes.
erm, press coverage today that there wasn't years ago.
Yes, yes,all over the world.
Yes, oh yes,
So if if he blows his nose in Australia, we know about it today.
Yes.
Whereas years ago, it would have taken some time for that come by by which time it was no longer news, and people shrugged their shoulders and say well,
But that surely is a very interesting thought about this, and until the, er, Bishop of Bradford preached his famous sermon  and all the thing blew up, people in this country had never heard of er, Mrs Simpson.
Mrs Simpson.
No, no.
They'd been abroad, I believe, hadn't they?
How on earth did the  press even them though, when people were coming,
I know.
I I mean, my mother of often said she, the first she'd saw about it was when, almost on the abdication.
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Th th the bill-board said,
They kept it very quiet.
The  Mrs Simpson, she thought, who was Mrs Simpson.
How on earth did they keep 
Keep it quiet.
They might have muzzled the press.
Well they had  the press weren't like they are today.
So,wh what,yo yo you you think Barbara, that, it was because the press were more gentlemanly,
Yeah, yeah.
that the press,th the members of the press,
Yeah.
gentlemen themselves.
authority.
Yeah.
I th I think that, you didn't have them photo 
Well  
it's like everybody else  
you know that.
So th th there there was there was there was a certain amount there was a certain amount of self interest, that the erm,
the people of the press thought there could be something in it for them, if they, if they kept quiet.
What about fear?
Was, was there more fear, wa wa was it more likely that the press would fear repercussions on them in some way, if they were to break confidences.
Yes, we don't what  
Yeah.
Yeah.
I thought that could be it.
Yes.
Perhaps  it would blow over.
You know,nine day wonder.
Mm.
Mm 
Well, I think they were hoping, weren' they.
No, I think they thought it would be a nine day wonder, it would just go away.
I think the Archbishop of Canterbury was hoping it would.
Well, let's face it, I mean, he had several other ladies, didn't he.
He he he jumped from Lady Furbishers bed to straight into Wallis's didn't he.
Yeah.
because I remember reading her book.
Lady Furbisher.
Mm.
Erm, and sh she she was at the party when he, and she was going away, that was it, and she said, said to Wallis, will you look after David for me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Which she did.
Very well.
And 
Yeah,her eye on David.
Well, it's 
Could I just say, that er,
What  right, that's  a point from Frances, please.
Er, at this time, I used to keep scrap books of the Royal Family, for years, I did,
Still have them.
erm, you have, I haven't, and erm, there was a photograph that I cut out of the paper sometime before he abdicated, over the Prince of Wales at the races with Mrs Simpson.
Mm.
Mm.
Now, nothing was said about it.
Nothing was said.
Wh how long, how before was that
Oh, it was, it, you know, a while before, I mean, you 
Mm.
twice, I think that's what people couldn't swallow, I mean 
When she was 
Mm.
Yes
Yes, yes.
That was the main thing.
But there was no, there was no question of, who is this woman that 
No, no.
No.
But then, I mean, it was quite common,that the Prince of Wales had got several ladies.
Oh, loads.
Yeah.
I mean, the first  Prince of Wales is round 
Right.
No, well, there's some little village near near erm 
Yeah, ain't there.
Where there's a a hunting lodge.
Oh they had one in the, in the 
Yeah, he used, he used to visit that a lot,
Yeah.
Well, he met he her, didn't he.
Sorry.
Lady 
So that, the
Oh, possibly, possibly.
Yeah.
Er, Trevor.
Er, there is this curious erm, not quite sure what the right word is for it.
But, people, both like the Royal Family, do be er, veterans of debauchery, and at the same time setting the highest standards.
Mm mm.
Er, that they've either got to, well they've preferably got to be bought rather than, just 
Yeah, yeah, yes it 
Oh well,oh, they always have plenty of women, or, but his private life.
Now what, you know, his private life was above reproach, and somehow or other people can accept both, and happy to do, it's about any public figure.
It is, yes, I was, I was going to raise that point, it is not, it's not, it's not just the royalty,
no, oh no.
erm, it it is people in public life.
Yes.
Erm, who are, who variously tread er, a very difficult tight-rope, because they fall one way, and it's acceptable, they fall the same way the next day, and it's not acceptable.
I believe it's true, but when there was rumour about Mr Majors, er, contact with, was it, the the caterer 
Caterer 
he's popularity went up no end.
Yes, yes.
But  
normal.
Yes, he, he, yes.
Erm.
and at that time, the only paper  scandal, was  research, was was the News of the World.
Mm.
Yes, yes.
You always  News of the World 
If you want to make the naked truth unfurled ask tomorrow for the News of the World.
What.
naked, I suppose.
Yes, yes, yes, yeah.
yeah.
So do  
Sorry, go on, yeah.
Before we go on to something else.
What happened to his offspring?
Any, tell me anybody, what h happened to
I mean, were they looked after, or 
Yes.
I don't know 
Does he have any?
Did he have any.
Knowing what you just say,
Wallis
He just, he might have done in his younger days.
Woo, woo, for the, for the benefit of the tape, it's not very good, one at a time, please.
Yeah.
It used to be said there are a lot of very prosperous, very prosperous farmers round in Melton Mowbray.
Mm.
Mm.
Well, she.
None of their farmers have a 
Erm, er, generally people in that position, and and it it was a a weakness of Edward's.
Or rather Edward's weakness was for married women.
Mhm.
And you look at the recent king's mistresses, Edward the eighth, and er, sorry Edward the seventh.
Seventh, yeah.
but they were all  and it was on the safe side, whatever happened.
But this was a, this was a priority  he wouldn't have, they wouldn't bothered anyone unless they got a husband in the background, somewhere.
This was for safety.
But mind you, according to some people it was virtually impossible for him to beget any bastards, but still.
Yeah.
This  also be circulated.
Could be, could be.
Mm.
Mm.
So there there there there there we,
Yeah,whe whe whether or not we consider him to have been a black sheep, then we certainly have erm, rather gone into his character.
Who this ch 
Who this ch ,
Yes, erm, had er er thing to say about his character, without really being, erm, unkind about his brothers.
Which was  suggestion, er or about later members of the the Royal Family, the present Prince of Wales.
Do think this is, probably why,wh he went to the front in the First World War, what was it, the Prime Minister shouted out, don't mind you being killed, but I don't want you being taken prisoner,he co he couldn't, you know, hadn't got enough courage to hold out.
Mm  I don't know.
No.
I I've always assumed that that meant that it would be such a tremendous lever for the enemy to hold someone like that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I mean,wh wh what would you do.
I mean.
Erm, we we we have the King, erm.
Yes.
We have, I don't know 
er, I've got your point.
Mm.
And, what, we could do anything we like to him, unless you  give up.
up the wall.
up the wall.
I've always assumed that that was it, that erm, I don't know.
Yes, I would have  
No, thought that was it, yeah.
We have, erm, one more paragraph and a few questions to discuss and time, what is it, it's about ten past now, is it, according to your 
Yeah.
more correct watches, yes.
One, one minute to three according to mine.
Getting later and later all the time.
The socially under privileged.
Erm, I don't know whether you claim to belong to the socially under privileged.
Yeah.
The Observer, in nineteen ninety-three, referring to Hunslet Leeds, made the point that improved housing is no compensation for the destruction of a community, without which outsiders are created.
Arson, car thefts, burglary, muggings, many of them done by children and young people, have apparently become common place in Hunslet .
Complaints bring extraordinarily crude recriminations from the vandals.
Are some of the yobs, children who've been excluded from school?
What a dilemma for teachers, with children who are out of parental control and disruptive in school.
In school, they will unsettle students and staff alike.
Out of school they will be unoccupied and, Satan finds work for idle hands.
Can individuals and the community serve without spiritual values  What about that as a starter before we look at the other questions, then.
Can individuals and the community survive, I said serve, my my my apologies.
Can individuals in the community survive without spiritual values?
I would say no.
Mhm.
So would I.
I would say  
Well, it's harder  without values when,
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You need the element of superstition there, I don't know.
Well, no.
Right, okay, so so so.
Spiritually, perhaps 
Yeah, so we 
Yes,the the the the there have to, there have to be values.
Yeah.
Human values.
Human values.
Yeah.
There have to be values, they have to be human values.
Erm, spiritual, you you you you think erm, that th they they have to be spiritual values.
Well, spiritual values, or human values.
Mm.
Mm.
I see that as much the same.
Much the same, yes, yes, yeah.
An ethical framework.
Yeah,
Yes.
So there has there has to be an ethical framework.
An ethical framework.
But it's all very well saying there has to be a framework, there have to be values.
How do you get people to accept those values and to live within that framework?
I'm afraid they've got to be 
Mm.
But if they're completely alienated,
Mm.
Mm.
they won't accept the value because they'll reject 
Mm.
I think that people have got to turn in the other direction, and really want to be  because I see in schools there are 
Mm.
And really it starts with the family  and the family  
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
That's right, it does.
What and then you start with the women.
Well, not just women, men as well, but mothers are the first teachers of the young.
Mm.
Mm.
So fam , so family values are terribly important and they begin in the home where they best taught, in the first place by the mother, but obviously by the family.
yes, yes.
And the school has a part to play.
Yes.
Mm, yeah, yeah.
Oh yes, yes, I'm m , as as I say, I I I can understand all this, but I I I am not sure how you can persuade people who don't somehow, share your opinion with values  ethical values, human values, er, to live within that society, and to to obey the rules that you would like to set, when they really don't observe those rules.
There is a certain amorality
Yes.
Among people nowadays.
You can't 
Germany from nineteen thirty-three to nineteen forty-five.
What, what happened in Germany,wh wha.
People did as they were told.
People did as they were told.
If they want to create that sort of society,
Yes.
Mm.
if they're not being desirable one by our standards, but a society can be made to work, if there's enough pressure put on it.
Mm.
They're not erm, conscious, I suspect.
People won't do anything they're told if you get them like this, secret police and a few other little dodgers.
It worked in Russia.
And Rumania.
When they're not 
Rumania, you know.
This is an awkward question,
Mm.
Yes.
Suggesting that spiritual values are the only solution.
Mm.
Mm.
They are not.
No, I don't, no 
There are moral pressures that can be, er er, applied, because nothing much to do with our sort of morality.
But then you,th th the the end is, er, a society in which we could all live, erm, on reasonable terms with each other, at peace with each other .
Er, the means to that end, are justified by the end, even so.
So if you
Well, you won't
Yes.
But it's  okay, it it it is possible for these moral values to be implanted in people by the exercise of force, by fear, er, or it is possible by an understanding, an acceptance of spiritual moral, ethical values.
Er, are those the only two ways in which it could be achieved?
Have we got to choose one or the other.
I think time will come when we will have to.
Mm.
Because the erm, situation will become so bad, and,I think people might turn the other way when it comes to a a state where they have to be 
Mm.
Perhaps.
Surviving in a moral sense, rather than a physical sense.
Well, I suppose a physical sense as well, because if they can't see how it can continue.
Mm.
Because the situation is getting worse every day.
I mean you can look back like, just over a few years,
Mm.
and see the er, decay has set in more and more and more.
It's growing in a mental 
And in order to put a stop to it, there has got to be a resurgence of a belief in values, whatever those values may be.
Back to basics.
I think yeah.
Back to basics.
I think people have got to start 
Mm.
Well, it's more respect for other people in this world, I mean, at the moment there's nothing.
Yeah, that's right, yes.
Mm.
I think probably, the the the two alternatives that that  and  have both put forward.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, either one way or the other.
Something's got to happen.
They're all  
Either through fear, or through 
I think, something can can happen, that, I mean, really terrible, that could put the fear into people, and then maybe, that would sort of turn people in view of it.
Some, mm, mm.
Gonna take a long time, though, isn't it.
I mean, they're so indoctrinated, these days.
Well, if you think something like AIDS, it comes in, you know, where a lot of people die  disease, you could always  important.
Doesn't seem to have stopped them, does it.
No, it didn't 
No,never stop them 
I don't know why.
But cer 
any rate heterosexuals,as well, isn't it.
Cer cer certainly AIDS is the, is is is the the sort of erm, fear th th th that the the occurrence that creates the fear, that might be sufficient to stop peoples
That's right, yeah.
I mean, it might be something else.
Mm.
Might not be AIDS, but erm
Yes,I think, of morals in the first century 
Yes, I was thinking 
Yes.
Yeah.
Going to be a very small, going to be a very small part.
Yes, yes, yes, yes,
I don't that's got a lot to do, really.
I mean, AIDS is a very very small part of of the death toll.
Yeah.
Take cancer.
It is, it is, yes, is it, it is at the present time, but it is it is growing.
Yeah  
Yeah.
It is growing.
That's that's the  with AIDS.
It has the difference, if there is the implication, that in many perhaps in most cases of AIDS, it could have been avoided by, what used to be called clean living.
Sure.
Yeah, yeah.
Mm.
It's possible to get it , whereas nobody can control, I think, cancers.
No comment on peoples 
No.
No.
But then, if if you think of those children that murdered that child.
Oh.
That was awful.
Mm.
I mean, probably yo you know, I don't know, probably next year, might not just be one case, there might be two or three cases of that.
I don't know.
But probably something like this, might turn people in the other direction.
Mm.
It certainly erm, sent a shock of horror though the whole country,
Yeah.
Yes, yes.
Er, whole country was  for, you know
So more mothers er, with children are known to 
Brains.
Brains, yeah, yeah.
Put the fear into parents from that point of view.
It lasted for about a fortnight, that, didn't it.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Yes, I mean, it it doesn't last long, does it.
No.
No.
No.
They soon forget.
They get nowhere, if something else takes their mind, and
Yeah, yeah.
Like going to  ants or the people.
Doesn't happen to people who are most likely to be
A lady in one of the flats said, there are still children playing about on their own.
Mm.
Yes, yes, yes.
But then it's a shame that children can't play around on their own.
I mean, I did.
Yes, yes.
There was thi th the I think that this is this is
children's 
This is the point behind all this discussion, isn't it, that erm, we have reached a stage where certain things er, we take for granted as being difficult, as being frightening
Yeah.
as being dangerous.
Yeah.
Er, twenty years ago certainly, wouldn't have been taken for granted.
No.
No.
Erm, I was talking to er, a young man this morning.
Erm, he he he was saying that his young boy of eight, he doesn't allow to play out alone.
He takes him to a football training course, because he doesn't like to think that he goes to play football on the park.
Yeah.
But twenty years ago, he would have gone out himself, at that age,
Yeah.
Yes, yes, quite.
to go out and play football.
So within twenty years there has been an enormous change.
Yeah.
Yes.
Erm, I, there's a very small example.
I received an unexpected parcel in the post the other morning, and my first thought was, is this safe or not.
Is it a bomb.
Is it a bomb.
I mean, years ago that would never have occurred.
I put it down, and I phoned the people I thought might have been the recipients of it, to make sure it was genuine,
Yeah.
And they, I I suggested they should come and collect it, and if I hadn't got a er er er er a reasonable answer, I would have phoned the police.
Yeah.
Now would you have done that, five, ten, fifteen years ago.
No.
No.
No.
You would have picked up the parcel and you would have delivered it yourself.
Or you would have, say, taken it to the Post Office, or something.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But erm, nowadays, you, I think we we we've all got this this this idea, that we have to.
Aware of.
We're almost accepting that life is difficult.
But it's just self defence.
And it is self defence.
Mm.
It is self defence.
Let's have a look at some of the closing questions, erm, before we we run out of time and the teas ready.
About how long have erm, we got.
We we we we we're doing alright.
We're doing very well, are we, yes, look at my peculiar watch, yes,
Panic not.
Changes in social mores are reflected in the current definition of family of black sheep, and we haven't asked what the current erm, definition of family of black sheep is.
For example, couples now live together and have children quite openly.
Why, on the other hand, there are hostels for battered wives.
Has society modified it's conception of family and of black sheep, or are these changes the outcome of a climate of openness I think we've touched on this, to some extent, already, by saying things have changed.
I can answer this by a a simple illustration in language.
That what I always call a family, is now referred to a lot a lot as a  family.
Mm.
Mm.
Oh.
A term which certainly I, wouldn't have understood a few years ago.
Yes, yes, yeah.
So that that that that
I mean, you can see in the Mercury, that night after night in the birth column,
Mm.
er, announcements where they give both surnames at the beginning.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Mm.
What name does a child take in a case like that.
Mother's name, I believe.
Yeah, yeah, there's sometimes arguments.
You see a, a rush of double-barrelled names now.
Yes.
But it is, I I think automatically the mother's name is given to the child, but it can be decided that the child takes the father's name.
Erm, and the chi and and that, the the father's name, can therefore, appear on the birth certificate.
So the child, can be born to Miss Jones, have a father called Smith, and the child can be either Smith or Jones.
That's right.
But once decided, it has to stay with that until it gets
On the medical records, it would go down under its mother's name, but then  records go down under another name.
Yes, yes, yes  yes, yes, but there is.
So there is there is a wider acceptance on the one hand, of erm, sort of freedom, erm, and I know we're back to this idea of sexual freedom, but there is the   violence within our society, and and the the the question probably is, are those two connected, as we give greater freedom on the one hand, do we get a higher incidence of violence on the other hand.
No I don't think you get a higher incidence.
No, I think this is where the society has definitely improved.
Mm.
We are now, won't accept domestic violence, whereas it's always gone on.
Yes.
Yes.
Mm.
And at the the battered wives hostel,
Mm.
are a response to our objection to domestic violence.
Against women and children who, against their lives.
Yeah.
That is no longer acceptable.
It used to be acceptable in the same way as incest.
Mm.
Yeah.
Which used to be common place.
It.
People haven't suddenly stopped,ab sexually abusing their children.
It wasn't even illegal, until nineteen oh, something.
Mm.
That was accepted that the master of the house 
Yeah.
did as he liked with the females of his 
I was reminded of this, the other night at a little theatre, I forgotten it er, when we were watching  on the point of  
Oh, yeah, that that, yeah.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
I mean.
I've no idea, but I imagine so, yes.
Mm.
Mm.
Mm.
So it's a, it's a greater awareness, rather than a greater  for this.
So I'm not at all sure, that myself, it is so much worse.
I think things that which were accepted, are no longer brought up
Brought out in the open, yes, yes, yes 
So I suppose I'm talking now about, er, not crime, you know, vandalism, but in the family situation.
Yes, yeah.
Neither party will put up with a lot.
Mm.
Mm.
But they used to.
But I, I think it's also erm, worth saying at this point, that a a, the higher rate of divorce is perhaps an indication again,
Yeah.
Yes.
people, is not, are not just opting out of marriage, but they're not prepared to put up with the situation,
No, no, that's right.
but years ago they would have put up with, and said nothing.
Yeah.
Erm, so you can't, you must be careful not to draw the wrong conclusions from the, the figures that erm, we were given.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the two are not necessarily connected.
What about question number five then.
You will be able to find other examples of family black sheep.
I can't think of any.
We have two in the, in the distant past.
Yes, yeah.
Can you with any of these characters, see stages at which they might have been rescued, and by what means.
One of them.
Rescued from what?
Rescued from what.
Being a black sheep.
Well, it's ra , it's set the the the the topic, the study, starts off by talking about the parable er, of the er, the prodigal son, and the prodigal son was, in these terms, rescued.
Because the prodigal son came back, and stopped being a black sheep, and became the accepted son, again.
Well, we don't 
Well, we don't know.
Mm.
We don't know?
No, we don't know.
No, we don't.
Might have just  
Might have gone off again.
Ah.
we doubted him.
Yo you see, I I am, I am the eternal optimist, I think he came back and stayed.
The eternal pessimist would think that he came back and nipped off again, you see.
As a general point, it's er, a mistake, I think to take the parables.
Mm.
and the gospels and pushed them too far.
Usually they expect to, er or
Yes.
thought or expect to demonstrate one point
Mm.
Mm.
Mm.
Erm, the, the, yes, and it and it demonstrates a point, and er you it's, it's dangerous beyond, to go beyond there, yes, yeah, yeah.
Unnatural.
I don't think it, I don't think I intended it to be morbid.
Erm, I I honestly though, oh yes I can, I think I can think of a black sheep.
Er, it just occurred to my family.
Again, I think it's a change of mores.
Erm, I have I think cousin, erm, who was in the Air Force during the war, and came back from the Air Force with a child.
I think in fact she had to leave the Air Force because she had a child.
Mm.
Er, it transpired afterwards that the man she had married, was not the father of the child.
Now, she she was the black sheep of the family.
Mm.
Er, people went into corners and talked about her.
I don't think she remains  I don't think she remains the black sheep of the family  because at attitudes have changed.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
But there was a time when she was a sort of pariah.
Yes.
Erm, and you know, let's face it, I didn't have to go through the circumstances that they went through in the war, and there therefore, who who am I to judge
Yeah.
what did, or did not happen at that time.
Er, but certainly,the there was in, as I say, in my family, there was this, there was, well I mean, I think perhaps, she would be described as a black sheep.
Yes, oh she would.
Erm, in those days, but I doubt if now, anybody would
Bother.
Bother about, no.
Nobody 
I tell you this today, they would be a queue to marry her, because she would get a hundred thousand pound for 
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, indeed, and we have one last.
And a 
One last question to to think about, then.
Can we lessen the number of family black sheep and still maintain the spice of difference.
Why is it that the black sheep of the family is often the most likeable.
Yeah, that's what I was going to say.
Yeah, yeah.
Yes, yes.
I think it's it's this this idea, that it's alright to go so far, it's when you go over the top.
Erm, it's it's alright being a naughty boy, it's quite accepted that you are, I'm using the the the masculine, because I can speak from a male point of view, I suppose.
It's alright being the naughty boy, in various senses, but if you go over the top, and you you are no longer just naughty, but even worse.
It's alright as a man if you do certain things, oh, he's a bit of a lad.
Mm.
Yeah.
Mm.
We tend to say that, or used to say that.
Yes, Jack the Lad.
Yeah.
Jack the Lad.
But then when it goes just a little bit further.
Then there is a cessation of acceptance and suddenly there is, er almost revulsion that steps in.
Mm.
Mm.
Erm, and it can, it can happen overnight, can't it, from some someone is er, he's he's he's a bit of the one with the ladies.
That is probably quite acceptable.
yeah.
Yeah.
Well,use it certainly used to be.
But you go beyond that and it is not acceptable.
No, it's
Being found out.
Being found out is the 
It was alright to come to your marriage, having been a bit of a one for the girls, but it wasn't at all good to come to your marriage having been a bit of a one with the lads.
Absolutely, yes, yes.
Not not quite a law for the rich and law for the poor,
No.
but, but certainly, yes, yes.
yes indeed, yes indeed.
As a general principle, I'm I'm always rather attracted, depends, of course on your outlook, on St Augustine's dictum, he
that you loved God did what you like.
Mm.
But that of course, only works, if you are a particular
Yes, yes.
How.
Any, any closing comments now, before we, stop and have a cup of tea.
are you gonna round this off.
It just occurred to me that I don't how many children Mr and Mrs Thomas had, but the only one who's remembered is Dylan.
Yes,
Yes, indeed, yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah.
And he he he he was perhaps the black sheep.
He was perhaps the black sheep.
Black wool sheep.

What, when you was in the bath.
No .
So what did you do at this farm today then?
Rode the cows.
Yes.
Erm, tried to see the sheep.
What time did the coach leave?
Erm  it was erm, well, it didn't leave early, it leave 
What  straight to school.
Yeah  left about ten o'clock.
Yeah  did you have your lunch there?
Yeah 
How many, did your whole class go?
.
What was it a barn?
Yeah, and the woods.
And the woods.
Went to the woods in the .
Yeah.
From the .
Was it a big coach?
Quite a big .
Who'd you sit next to?
that's  ain't it?
Pardon!
.
, got another one upstairs I think.
Yeah.
Have you got one?
So did you have your lunch at the barn or did you
Oh we won't .
You went back to the coach 
Er, no , you, we, we had this sort of classroom to stay
What in the barn?
yes.
Oh yes.
So we ate in there 
.
we  I don't, I don't know it's in Weybridge I think.
Weybridge?
Yes  and erm  erm  a big bridge and we played this game called worm, there's this bits of paper and they pretend their worms
Paper?
yes, it's, a newspaper
Yeah.
cos we were, we were erm, with these  two boys and about  and erm  erm I think it was , two foxes  worms were behind them
.
There was this erm, the people were birds 
.
there were little birds and the big bird, I was the big bird and my friend Jasmine was the little bird
Yeah.
we had to run to get a worm, but we erm  we erm  you had to get past the foxes without them touching you, if you touch them you won't be able to get a worm
Oh right, what, then your out of play?
well no, you go back and you have to start again, then you go, unless if you get say five that's how many worms you have to give baby birds a day
Oh.
so if there's some 
Lisa why's the video back?
there's
hold it
a .
where's the remote for the video?you got it?
It's in the other room.
If there was a 'p'
Oh ok.
on the, on the worms 
I  .
if there was a 'p' on the worms, it poison, you, you, you little 
You was still dangerous?
your little bird is dead.
Oh that's charming.
Huh, huh.
Where's the erm  Lisa pass me the remote for the T V please  so it was a good day out .
Yeah.
Have you got some trip coming up Lisa?
No.
What?
No 
it erm, John and Linda are coming on Sunday.
Oh, I didn't know that.
, watch out, cos they've got a baby boy.
Why?
Called Craig.
Yeah .
How old is he?
He's about, about a year old.
One year?
He's ah, I think he's gonna be every where .
That's ok .
I got .
All of the boys in my class, every single boy tease me.
Every boy teases you?
Yeah.
Aha, too bad.
Huh, don't you mean she bullies the boys at school?
I don't.
I bet you do  ah  what do you want for tea?
Erm .
Erm .
Well actually you just had a packed lunch today didn't you?
Yeah.
So you better have something er,something for tea.
erm 
.
Bacon and egg.
Erm,
Yeah  what's that?
Sounds like an aeroplane.
.
No, I mean what type?
Oh I don't know there's a   it's the helicopter.
Is it?
Yeah
Oh.
so er
.
Excuse me.
Sorry what do you say Lisa?
Could I have a biscuit?
Erm, I don't think we've got any at the moment cos mum's just gone to the shops  What do you want for tea Lisa?
Erm 
Did you get your photograph taken then in the end?.
Yeah .
Well where, where, how did the bull drip on your head?
Well, he was in this pen and I was sort of behind him
Yeah.
well, in front of him.
head.
I don't know, cos I, I was behind my friend
Yeah.
I was bit, in front of the bull and the bull got close enough to dribble on me.
Did it smell?
Yeah.
Disgusting?
Disgusting.
A real slobbery one?
When, when we went there was this er, more gates and his little  his house, right, went through the little door, or big door , and he went through to the gate and he, and he sort of goes
Did he have a ring through his nose?
Yeah.
Laugh.
Yeah.
What do you do at school today Caroline?
you've got my special cup.
at the beginning erm, at play time we went in Mrs Parry's room and watched and watched a video about places to live
What 
Erm , huh
What look's favourite place to live?
Well, I think it was actually different places, but, about people living in the Grand Canyon will 
All I want 
No .
for Christmas.
You should of taken photographs .
Mm, I, I didn't know because all of a sudden we got into  school and Mr Walker said erm, when you've been in assembly go to Mrs Parry's room  and erm we watching a video  .
Come on out the kitchen.
Want to go out, yeah?
Er,making lanterns 
Christmas lanterns?
Yeah, oh we  erm, bits of paper with patterns on them, like stain glass windows and the colouring, we colour them in and we stick them together and make a lantern 
Are they not for the er class room  windows?
No, we've got them sort of standing up on, on the top of our book shelf  I suppose I could make a few lanterns for in here for Christmas.
You don't want to stick them on the wall cos of bringing all the er paint off.
Er like them 
.
and that's only blue tack.
I think Lisa 
Dad 
did that.
No I didn't.
Dad, the, well erm, were doing about things about light and we've got this black piece of paper, cutting out a shape sort of candle and cutting, erm colouring paper underneath so that we can put them on the windows at .
What, let the light shine through?
Mm  so that  can blow up 
Just think all these  and newspapers stuck between .
Why it was .
Yeah .
Yeah .
Yeah he was  a lot.
You're intending to erm take them  on board 
.
Fine, well  so er  you have to allow  on the .
I know, what a martyr 
it's just  
You going to  Sue?
Yeah .
Yeah.
.
What did he say, last  
I was walking 
bumper.
.
.
Well, it's not my first day any way.
.
.
Yeah, ok, well thank you for that  
yeah 
Yeah, have a good laugh Chris 
full explanation everything.
No.
He's not, why what have you got planned?.
if you can remember what the rule .
yeah.
There must be some .
Don't you need .
I, I'm trying a little French at the moment cos 
What?
wish me good luck, cos I need it
.
need all the help I can get .
Yeah .
why , that's what the problem you've spoken for a long time you just know it, but you don't know  why you use that way, you just do that way.
There must be some rules that you can follow er .
Maybe erm,.
Yes, you are  saying it's worth the strong view  .
.
Oh yeah .
something 
German 
yeah 
Mm .
why you said that in English, why you  erm  it's so unbelievable, simple.
Oh  it's just the same as that on the book 
It's really difficult 
Having exceptions to the rule 
do you think they're .
Yeah, there's so many exceptions  years ago, you said you know there's so many  exceptions .
You might as well, you can't ler , you might as well learn it parrot fashion, you can't learn the general rules, there's so many section to the rules you 
Why?
might as well individual  just a little bit .
Oh.
Tell you what  me, I .
Yeah.
I'm not .
No.
.
Well they get, you get sort of ones from the B B C
are doing some aren't they, but I don't if they're actually video's, there was something inside, they say, it's the other week ago, German, French and Spanish I think  learning centre in  
Yeah .
push out, but I've had the  cos that's .
Is it German Chris?
Well,why?
No, it's just that Jill was asking the other day and I said I can't remember.
Yeah, well not very , the only  that sort of thing I .
Yeah.
.
Yeah,thanks very much see you at  .
I can't believe it  .
Nor can I.
There looks  there sor sor sort of a big erm  type of, it's almost like, well it is a  that they do it's er
.
all the way round here, it just looks as though the  on top of the bath robe  cot into the oh into the  look along there 
What were the  discipline, it's appalling.
Well he won't  .
And  .
umm-ing and ah-ing 
You wouldn't  about nineteen and you get these big 
Come off  it must of been horrible .
, then when do you .
I would of done  just 
.
Have we had an engineer  
Do what mate?.
You doing flying one, zero?
Think so 
unlocked.
.
to  our  are on sixty five,on
Why what do you want 
I want four,Charlie on sixty three.
.
yes , this is what I think  jacket  .
horrible .
parking code .
I think they're gonna change with the erm
You  with er early  
Yeah .
So we've been starting on the, but this is a bit of a shame though because, what I like, when we, when we, when we have our three days off, it's nice to know on your, on your last day off that still have a late night because your not back to work until the afternoon you know .
Yeah .
Where's you might find on your last  on the earliest at five
Yeah,
Oh yeah I suppose it will be much too early  Left home at er  today  come in, I thought I  so I'd only gone about half a mile down the road  filled up my car, paid the money  the car wouldn't start  I kept turning  nothing was happening  and then all of a sudden after a couple of minutes it erm   like the way I've button up my coat?
.
Alright  I thought I was, I was walking  
.
I was walking along talking to you and I was thinking this feels really strange you know  .
You know if I'd gone on the  I said hello look here's a mad man
.
.
You must of been .
Oh it started in the end, I think it was the er starter motor, but I went home again and took Mandy's car instead, because I thought I don't want it to play up tonight, you know, in the car park so I'll have to check it out tomorrow afternoon.
It was so embarrassing,sitting there, you know you couldn't, it must be ok, I've just driven here.
Can I watch the end of Rupert?
No you can't watch the end of Rupert.
I watch .
Say .
What did you have for lunch then?
Hello.
We had, we had fish fingers, beans and chips 
Fish fingers, beans and chips 
Fish fingers, beans and chips .
Alright, alright don't be stupid .
I went down to Hobridge yesterday afternoon.
when I went down there, there must of been a  winding me up  but the only problem was that er, it was all  into er one thirty  but er  but I mean after you went out I took Thomas out on the road
Yeah .
So I said is that right in the old stories
So.
So I said  to them pop down there on the way home, check it out
Yeah.
so  time.
.
Well I'll book it up erm, find out at least a week before hand   .
Yeah 
I mean we, we said to them  ring up on the day
Yeah.
the thing is by Friday morning there's a lot of people  but er.
People from Air Canada were talking about .
Louise erm, two years ago we meet at the seven four seven for Bangkok air New York , we were in .
Yeah.
To have  and 
Oh, it should be announced yeah, I think that Kevin should take the  job, he might have five hundred passengers aboard the airline, he might have 
He have four hundred five
Four hundred and five and six 
of them.
like us, he .
Yeah.
.
I said to Pam, go on tell her, do you think Christine will mind if we go  
.
answer the question I ask,.
.
, I'm not , Julie had to go down .
Why?
Why .
There must be a .
Was there a big trail of dust down the corridor or something as a .
Can I borrow that ash tray a minute?.
Where've you been Ray, I've been looking everywhere for you?
I've been here all the time.
Just the Gas Board rang for you.
Oh did they?
Yeah.
Ok, yes, I'm having trouble with my boiler, not the wife 
Oh, alright .
the other boiler, ok 
Erm , but
I'll ring back .
they said they don't think they'll be able to do too much at the moment
Ok.
if you want to try and get hold of them again
Alright.
just that I tried the phone room, I'll take you down there and, I could see you from up here and I said he's around.
Just gone to the loo Paul.
Oh, oh.
.
Sorry about that.
Erm  it was
Yeah 
about an hour ago 
How are you?
Oh ok, oh he's probably half way between home 
Ok, mm 
and you then in that case, an hour ago.
Yeah, I'll call them back, don't worry .
You sure?
Yeah I'll telephone.
.
How are you Paul?
I'm fine thanks Christina, I'm even better now.
.
No.
. See you later on
Yeah.
Take care.
Oh shit, I was supposed to phone up Thomas.
Yeah, I spoke to Thomas
Yeah.
and if there's something .
Yeah.
I, I said I can't .
I went to Hoebury yesterday afternoon and they're fully booked till one thirty in the afternoon.
.
Oh, is he on tomorrow?
I can tell him tomorrow.
Ok.
Well, that you were in this afternoon.
Yeah, but tell him I went to Hoebury in the afternoon.
Yeah .
Good  fully booked till one thirty in the afternoon, so there's, there's no point, we'll only be there for two hours..
Pardon?
.
That's it.
you got one of those er  you know 
Yes  .
.
.
And I 
.
.
I tried to ring the office 
.
No, I mean he rang, I was supposed to ring him at home though.
So it was a good day was it?
he was doing well till  buggered off.
Yeah  .
.
.
Having tea .
Sorry.
.
, yeah I have a .
You weren't being very nice to us .
I say you've been  thank you very much.
But I should of done 
Yeah 
someone is going to help me up
I .
.
No.
What was your problem?
You just wait.
Leave it.
.
Got her revenged planned 
don't be like that, honestly.
Don't take it personally now do we?
how can you take it personally when it's not your 
I was a bit disappointed in  I, well I think it's 
You do?
Two hundred and fifty .
.
See look,.
Oh Daddy  I went into the upstairs bathroom  and turned on the light, it went on and it went ping  and then turned off again.
Christmas tree, I don't know where we're gonna put it.
Oh we could move that vase  and then put it there.
No we could move the table over.
But we haven't got a tree.
Yeah shall I ask fa sa Father Christmas gonna get one.
Well probably.
He's got magic, he can go   and get one.
I don't know where we're gonna put the Christmas tree.
We could put 
Yeah.
it behind the door.
one 
Could behind the door.
And nobody would be able to get in.
We could erm  put it  there.
No we want to put it up 
We could have a small one.
Could put it over there.
Yeah b if you put it here it's only  a small one there isn't it?
Yeah  oh yeah 
Can we make the erm   fairy on.
Can we move the  dresser  dresser up and put it in there?
Erm.
.
Gonna cost a  cost a lot of money .
I remember  when it was Christmas  we bought 
What in there?
Not a very good place.
Can I come with you this year to get the Christmas tree?
Me too!
er  ba er  and I can get 
Put it there you can't get the T V.
get the tinsel.
Mm  yeah.
That'll cover it right up there.
I'm going to give Granddad 
I dunno 
a present  .
.
You can't Lisa!
I can .
Look  there he is !
Oh.
.
I don't know where we're gonna put one.
Mm  Ever nearly everybody can have a Christmas tree, but some people can't.
Some people can't  because they haven't got enough money.
Yes but what about ?
Dad thinks we can't cos we need the television.
That's 
What?
Why?
Nobody'll be able to see.
ha.
Haven't got a lot of room really, have we?
No.
Mm  We could have a small one about there.
Yeah a small one's not very good though, in there is it?
If  we can 
We've got pictures.
No!
.
I'd I'd move that erm
No we could move 
there 
this table  over here and put it over there there.
Or we might  move this forward here
Mm.
and then
Yeah.
Even the cards just about.
Mm.
Oh.
Don't wanna get one just yet anyway, it's a bit early.
End up with all the needles dropping off.
We've got  the small  Christmas tree  about that big
I've seen it.
and it's  hasn't got needles on it at all.
just a big pine.
you know that tinsel stuff  it's  it's not shiny.
You been waiting long?
I went up there and   oh look  oh they've gone!
Oh.
Where did you go?
We must have parked  we could have parked.
We can   that though.
Yeah.
What's up there 
Just there?
Yeah.
I just came down  and I walked all through that Kenyan 
I w I walked all through that Nigerian mob  and I thought oh we I'll walk down the ticket desk, see if this is all shut
Someone walked down there.
Wonder how much  oh mush  How are you lately, haven't seen you for ages, give us a ring  still out buying the old place  I married her, yeah.
Yeah.
What's up with Robert?
Did Clare give you the message?
I said erm 
He told me  he said Natalie
he said erm
I nearly forgot.
erm  she said send her send her a mail  something like that  yeah so I went to the ticket desk, it was locked up and they'd just come walking back and I thought  ah I hope she's not been waiting around.
I can't do that   I tell you, I mean I don't mind, don't get me wrong it's just that  I was the last one back up  and I got up there, still got a little bit of  to do  and they got more  than they did 
Oh yeah.
right, see you  
Yeah, oh yeah, I know.
I mean  okay so I thought ah  I don't give a shit you know, I mean  but I was only like two minutes behind.
I know  I know.
and then Steve says  well I'll just make last orders, see you later Paul.
And then  says you've got a key haven't you?
Want fifty  
I says no!said oh alright 
I've had before  where I have been told   waited and helped people finish their  
Yeah  yeah I done that.
And those have gone home  while I've been doing something else for them, they've gone, and left me!
I can't believe it!
And I could of gone with them!
Yeah I mean I  I mean sometimes when you get  day you think oh yes they could, you know, so you like start a round don't you if you 
And you wait for other people an that and  and you don't leave that's all  I won't do that again,.
I say I do I don't mind I just think what the bloody hell, you know we're only  just like two minutes apart!
I know  yeah.
It was like  today, well right, we're off  see you.
Paul  had asked me to do a swap  to do his early next  Wednesday  so yeah, put the form in and everything  the form came back today saying he's already on a late  and the day that he's supposed to be repaying me he's already on shift  
the six o'clock news 
He .
He loses control, I tell you.
He hasn't got a clue what he's lost!
.

Look look what the wind's look look what the wind's blown in, look what the wind's blown in.
They didn't even tell me you were coming.
What have we got to do to you today?
There's an awful pain in my back Doctor.
A pain in your back?
Aye it's in between my, well in the bottom of my shoulder blades .
Mhm.
And it it goes away and then all of a sudden it comes back, and it's re it's really torturing me.
Right let's have a wee look here and see if we can make it sore.
What side ?
, down there, down there,
Down down in down 
Aye.
in that corner there?
Aye, right there, aye.
Aye, beauty, oh I'm getting good at that, you see, it's all these years of practice I've had.
.
See she's enjoying that.
That's a better bit isn't it?
Aye,oh he loves that doesn't he?
Aye .
That's it.
What about as far round as that high,nothing as far round here ?
No nothing  no.
Nothing up there?
No, and a wee bit there.
I'm liking this, I'm liking this.
What about there?
And there?
Aye right there, aye.
Right.
We've got it coming up that bit there, right.
Aye.
Right up through there, and tell me if I do that oh ?
Aye right there at  to.
She enjoyed that.
Will I do it on the other side?
No, don't bother.
Aha.
I'm feeling deprived this morning.
I'm feeling deprived.
What 
What er what brought that on Marie, any idea?
Erm I haven't been bothered with it for a couple of months now Doctor, and 
thought it was an ulcer, didn't you Marie?
Oh I always thought it was my ulcer that was causing it, you know, so I was, every time I took it I was taking an extra Samtack 
Mhm.
And and  
Wasn't making any difference.
And I tell you when I really  lying on my 
Aha.
side to go you know to go to sleep at night ,
That's right.
that's when I feel 
That's right.
Right.
Do you want her turned into a human being again?
I do.
Just say the word and
time to give me a wee shot at my blood pressure as well Doctor.
Right.
Cos it's months before I had the time.
never get to Heaven.
You'll never got to Heaven.
Made a shocking mess of that.
Is this is this you wanting a  pump?
That's what I said.
for the daughter, she's  and she cannae carry it off, and whether she  
It's a good job it's not you.
I'd be
If it was me I'd be I'd need a miracle.
I'd be sending for the police.
That's what I'd be doing.
Aye, so would I be.
Well that's that's for the .
That's the stuff alright.
That's that's the stuff.
it's got a green card in it and it's got enough stuff to last you until 
Will that be alright by  aye?
I actually and sometimes I come right up.
That's right, right up there and right up, that's right .
that's right, aye.
You see, you'd think I knew about these things wouldn't you, you'd think I knew 
about these things.
your muscles.
Just go on  Just the one.
No the two.
Just the one.
Just the one?
Just the one.
I've got the two afternoon.
Just the one then.
Don't you get up .
Is he still putting up with you?
Aye.
Is he?
Just 
it's just near there.
just.
Now then  hold on to that, that's enough.
policies away, that's alright, it looks as if it's normal.
Oh well  wouldn't even bother dusting them.
Oh I'm being got at, aren't I?
Aye.
Good.
at all,
not bad at all for somebody that age.
That age.
on Thursday.
She had a birthday?
I'm forty seven.
I thought you said she,I thought you were stopping having birthdays.
Och  I stopped when I were twenty one.
Aha.
And is she twenty one again?
to be twenty one again, aha.
How many times is that?
Four times now.
tablets please?
Aye.
Yeah.
Your Warfarin,
Warfarin, aye, please.
let's see now ans aspirin.
Aspirin's still to
Sounded like seven fifty or something?
Seventy five.
Seventy five.
Oh what him he's threatening to do away with you.
Do away with you, Marie.
hundreds.
How is your mum?
Ah she's .
Thanks a lot.
Thanks a lot.
And as for Jackie's .
The paracetamol is that the dissolving ones?
No from the swallowing .
It's the ones for swallowing, right.
Have you tried the dissolving ones by the way?
No.
I've never tried them, no.
Want to try
I dissolve my ha aspro though .
Could use you sometimes you say they kind of,
Aye catching my throat, aye.
Well then.
I mean they're the same, the same  
The same as your other.
exactly the same thing.
they look slightly bigger,
but I mean it's only because the extra stuff's in it for it to dissolve in .
Dissolve in.
So so that's  I'll give you some of them this time 
Aye,
and see how you get on.
And if you feel they're better then fine, we'll get that for you.
No bother at all, no bother at all .
Now then, birth pill.
Aye, which ?
I've got them there I cannae see it.
Which one's that?
I have to write it down .
Oh, right.
Still in  Road?
No she's gone to her own house 
No er.
Doctor.
I forgot to put the change in the,get it in, she's moved to the other  
right enough.
Er sixty 
three  Lodge,
Sixty  Towers, by the Lodge .
Sixty, oh  not 
Mhm oh aye.
It's not , it's  Lodge.
.
Towers.
Towers.
Towers?
Mhm.
Towers, that's
Aha.
Only moved there last month or so Doctor,
Aye.
Yeah.
I don't think she's wanting to change you anyway,I think she's keeping you on.
Oh, she might have trouble, she might have trouble cos the Health Board have
changed all the regulations.
Oh  tell them.
Aye.
Aye, aye.
What does she do now then Doctor?
the best thing to do, check with the Health Board, they'll the only other way is to go a certain distance into  nowadays 
Right.
And if it's er if it's past the bit the Health Board allow then she should 
She's right behind it isn't it, the Health Centre.
Where where she's got her flat.
Is that right, oh well she 
Aye, she's right behind the centre.
No chance,
Aye.
no chance.
The this the  
Because she's near that?
No, the only other one's  
sort of a boundary, sort of a boundary.
Ah right, right.
And over the level crossing or past the  
Over the level, right, so we're talking by ?
Aye past   
Past   Yeah.
Go that way so if she goes into the Hea the Health Centre and says, you know that she's from  Hill
And she's changing address 
And she want's to change over cos she's moved into that bit of the town, they'll they'll get her sorted out.
They'll have the  
Get here a special form to fill in.
Right.
They'll have the forms here, she doesn't need to take anything with her, okey-doke?
Aye.
Just just says to them that she's moved.
Watch him, seven hundred and fifty,
just you watch him.
Aye  then, okay,
After  I'm giving him a tablet  as well.
you're gonna sleep at night.
Who was it that was asleep too long?
You're right, he's sleeping too long.
I'll get the door.
Right Dr .
There we are.
Right cheerio Doctor .
Right  
Okay, right, cheerio mate.

Good afternoon.
Item one on the agenda is the closure, disclosure of interest.
Call upon the Director of Legal Services.
There are dispensations from the Secretary of State for the Environment for Councillors ,,,, and  because either of their own or their spouse's employment in the Health Service.
That dispensation enables the members to to speak during the debate but not to vote, me having first recorded a disclosure of interest by those members.
Does any other member or officer wish to disclose an interest in any matters to be dealt with at this meeting?
Item two in minutes.
I move that the minutes of the meeting of the Council held on the sixteenth of July be signed as a correct record.
Is there a seconder?
Lord Mayor
N all those in favour please show.
Item three on the agenda, apologies for absence.
Er, Councillors ,, and  my Lord Mayor.
Are there any other
Item four, renouncements.
Copies of my announcements have been circulated to all members of the Council on the blue seats.
However, I will read them to you.
I have been asked by the building custodian acting on behalf of the fire service to inform you that, should the fire alarm sound, you are required to leave the building in an orderly fashion by the nearest exit.
No-one will be allowed to stay or return until the building has been checked.
It is my sad duty to inform members that Doctor , former City Treasurer of  County Borough Council and an Honorary Freeman of the City died in August.
I have written to Mrs  on behalf of the Council expressing our sorrow and extending a message of support to her in her and her family at this sad time.
I would like to invite members to stand and join me in a few moments silence in memory of Doctor .
Thank you.
On behalf of the Council I would like to offer sincere congratulations to  and  for their recent successes in the Britain in Bloom competition.
Members may be aware that  received the National Britain in Bloom award for 1990 in the town category and, as a result, were entered in the o entente fleural, a European competition similar to that of Britain in Bloom.
I was very proud to say that  finished in second place, a very creditable performan achievement, as I am sure members will agree.
Members may also be aware that  won the small town category in the  in bloom competition, which resulted in entry to the National Britain in Bloom awards.
Unfortunately  were not successful in winning the small towns category on this occasion but nevertheless I am sure that members would want to congratulate  on their considerable success in the regional finals of this prestigious competition.
I have just learnt   have recently achieved a cup double, being winners of the speedway star knockout cup and the B S P A cup, as well as finishing second in the Sunbright British League, their best performance ever.
I am sure members will be aware  speed speedway received financial assistance from the Council a few years ago when they ran into difficulties.
It's a great tribute to the  that they have managed triumph over adversity and achieved such tremendous results this season and I am sure that members would want me to place on record the Council's congratulations on their performance.
Good that we're doing something good in sport, isn't it?
Item five, inspection of internal documents.
I call on the Director of Legal Ser 
There've been no complaints against restrictions, Lord Mayor.
Petitions.
First one is about dogs.
I move that the petition to be presented from persons about opposing the making of byelaws and supporting of a poop scoop scheme be received.
Is there a seconder?
Seconded Lord Mayor
All in favour please show?
That is carried.
Will the petitioners please come forward 
Wel welcome to the meeting you may s you may speak for not more than five minutes.
Please start when you're ready.
Thank you.
My Lord Mayor, ladies and gentlemen.
I represent the recently formed responsible dog ownership group which consists of people from most areas of the  metropolitan district, both dog owners and non dog owners.
On behalf of this group I would like to present to the Council a petition containing in excess of two thousand signatures from people throughout the  metropolitan district who object to the originally reported suggestion that  Metropolitan Council are proposing to make byelaws requiring that all dogs should be kept on leads at all times in all public places.
We are aware that the suggestion relating to all public places has now been changed to, on all land owned by  Metropolitan Council but this does not allay our concern.
In fact, in our view, it would only aggravate the situation even further if such a byelaw was to be adopted, as most people within the  district do not know which land is owned by the Council and which is not.
We do appreciate that it is reasonable to impose restrictions on dogs in such areas as children's playgrounds, flower beds etcetera and we do support the extension of the byelaws relating to dogs fouling footways and grass verges and also the byelaws relating to the removal of canine faeces.
However, we feel that such  measures as those being mooted would only lead to further problems.
It is the view of many of the vets in the  district, the R S P C A Inspectorate and other dog handling professionals, that dogs must have adequate natural exercise and they should be given the opportunity to run freely as frequently as possible.
Failure to provide such opportunities does cause dogs to become more excitable and aggressive and this in turn reduces the level of control experienced by the handler.
A dog constantly restrained is an unhappy dog and an unhappy dog is more likely to become a problem dog.
The responsible dog ownership group has received correspondence on this matter from the  Animal Shelter, which is the agency currently being used by the Government to register pit bull terriers.
They also express concern regarding this suggestion.
It is their view that such a measure will be very counter-productive.
To introduce further byelaws, with all the attendant costs of application to the Home Off , with all the attendant costs of such things as application to the Home Office to enact the byelaw, the probability of requiring to post notices on all Council-owned land etcetera so that the public knows which is Council-owned land would, in the opinion of the responsible dog ownership group, be a waste of the charge payers' money as we believe that the Council already have sufficient powers to deal with any problems arising by reference to the existing pleasure grounds byelaws and or the Dangerous Dogs Act.
It should be noted that this view has recently been confirmed by the Council successfully prosecuting a person under the 1954 Pleasure Ground Byelaw.
We understand that there is a dog working party of Council officers already established and we would formally request that the responsible dog ownership group be allowed a representative on that working party to ensure that the views of the two thousand plus petitioners and over two hundred and fifty persons who have written individual letters on the subject to Mister  of the recreation division are considered.
We would also hope that, should there be a need in the future to make a decision in Council regarding application for such a byelaw, you, the members, will give proper consideration to the views I have expressed on behalf of the ro responsible dog ownership group.
In conclusion, I'd like to thank you very much for giving us the opportunity to present our petition.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Does any member wish to move that the subject matter be referred to the appropriate member body?
Councillor ?
Seconded?
All those in favour please show.
Ok.
It'll be mooted.
Thank you very much .
The second petition is about nursery classes at  first school.
I move that the petition to be presented from persons requesting the provision of a nursery class at this school be received.
Seconded Lord Mayor
All in favour?
Ok.
That is carried.
Will the petitioners please come forward?
Welcome to the meeting.
You must speak for not more than five minutes.
Please start when you're ready.
My Lord Mayor.
This is a petition for a nurs nursery class within the  first school.
My name is , I'm the chair of governors.
I'm supported in this application by , the chair of the , Mister , deputy chair, and Mrs  and , parent governors.
is a compact area, now isolated by the traffic from the  trunk road.
The population is around five thousand three hundred.
A questionnaire circulated by the Friends has identified one hundred and forty children living close to the school whose parents would wish nursery provision for them.
Only one parent did not wish provision.
Not all of  could be sampled by the questionnaire but comparison with the 1991 census figures suggests that the number of children in the catchment area could be over three hundred.
Of the fifty two children entering the school in September 1991 only six percent had received nursery education, compared with thirty nine percent from families who have moved in to  in the past.
To attend nearby nurseries involves car transport to  or  since bus timing is unsuitable.
Places in those nurseries are now fewer.
The only pre-school provision within  is a playgroup which does not have its own premises.
They now have only five weekly sessions instead of six, to comply with recent legislation.
The playgroup leasers support this petition and say that they would have a valuable role preparing the children for nursery education, feeling that the children at four plus need more than the s playgroup can offer.
Forty six point five percent of the children within the school come from Council rented housing, well above the thirty eight percent criterion for the school to receive social disadvantage allowance.
Families in this category are normally without transport and therefore excluded from facilities outside .
Frequently, they are unable to afford the playgroup fees and therefore miss all pre-school experience.
This makes worse the problems of disadvantage and over-stretched  resources, including time demands on working mothers.
The school now has an increasing number of entrants with special needs, including children with  support, children with behavioural difficulties and children already statemented.
If  had a nursery, all of these children would be able to start their education in their own community, without the expense and the disruption of being taxied out through the traffic jams.
From an education viewpoint, all the children of  would benefit from a natural flow from nursery into reception classes.
Parents could be involved sooner in the childrens' educations.
Better behaviour patterns could be established in a familiar place.
The school at present has no spare classroom space and no likelihood of the number of children in  decreasing.
There is, however, room for a new building an play area.
We urge you to consider our request for a nursery to be attached to the  first school to give the children a head start in their education.
We present our petition of nine hundred and fifty six names.
Thank you.
Si sit down a minute love
Yes, well, it's alright.
I haven't f I have something to say first.
Does any member who wish to move the subject matter be referred to the appropriate member body?
Councillor ?
Councillor ?
All those in favour?
That's clearly carried.
Thank you very much.
Now the third petition is one to deal with a pelican crossing at  Avenue.
I move the petition to be presented from pers from persons requesting the provision of a pelican crossing at  Avenue be received.
Is there is a seconder?
Thank you.
All in favour?
That is carried.
Will the petitioners please come forward?
Welcome to the meeting.
You may speak for not more than five minutes.
Please start when you're ready 
Lord Mayor, parents and staff at  first school  and local residents are requesting that the Council instal a pelican crossing on the site of the existing zebra crossing.
There's been concern over this area for several years but nothing's actually been done.
A similar request was approved three years ago but has never been implemented.
Parents and residents were given the impression that something was going to be done and were very dismayed to find that nothing has been done yet, hence this petition.
There has been one fatal accident on the crossing in recent years which was the tragic death of a young baby.
In addition there have been several other accidents where cars have collided with each others.
These are not actually recorded on police statistics but th nevertheless they could have been much more serious than in fact they were.
I witnessed an accident where a vehicle collided into the back of another one, pushing it completely across the crossing.
At the time there were parents and children waiting to cross over the crossing and it could have been much more serious.
The crossing is situated on a very busy dual carriageway where the speed limit is forty miles an hour and I would point th point out this literature which says that at forty miles an hour, if children are knocked into, most children are killed.
But in fact most of the vehicles travel at fifty or sixty miles an hour on this crossing.
It's a very busy crossing.
Some of the children at  school went out to do a traffic count recently and there was so much volume of traffic that the children were not able to keep up with th putting the  in the  to keep up with the volume of traffic.
Many motorists use the dual carriageway as an extension of the motorway.
The dual carriageway is just of the  motorway and people are gearing up to go on the motorway.
The practice of having zebra crossings on any multi-lane road doesn't seem to be very common outside .
Myself and my family have never seen it in our travels, bridges or or pelican crossings or subways would be provided instead.
Visiting drivers to , after a few hours on the motorway, are hardly going to be looking for a zebra crossing on such a busy dual carriageway.
We believe that the peli th the current zebra crossing is unfair and dangerous to both pedestrians and vehicle occupants.
Heavy vehicles, slowing down to allow people to cross, are often overtaken by cars, unaware of the crossing and the reason for the slowing heavy vehicle.
A bus stop just before the zebra crossing only confuses the issue further.
A vehicle volunteering to stop at the zebra crossing can only stop one of the two lanes, with no control over the other.
I've seen many examples of vehicles, further back, unaware of the situation, switching lanes and accelerating.
Many people feel very strongly about the dangers.
One resident I spoke to, whose house is immediately on the zebra crossing, reports that every day he dreads hearing the squealing of bl brakes and looking out of his window.
Another local resident has had a child who's broken he broken his arm on the crossing when a car hit into him.
A policeman who works in the area describes  Avenue as a nightmare of a crossing and I and other parents who have to take children across would entirely agree with this.
I cross the crossing eight times a day with my own two children and I would underline how hazardous it is.
One lane, often heavy traffic, tends to stop while the other continues to rush past at speed and the pedestrians' view is obscured by the heavy traffic.
It's very difficult with a parent with a pushchair or a double buggy and other children to bring across.
Unaccompanied children also cross this crossing, and the elderly, and they are very vulnerable from vehicles which seem to appear out of nowhere.
To conclude, the current zebra crossing is unfair to pedestrians and motorists.
A previous request for a pelican crossing was approved in 1988 but was never implemented.
Parents and staff at  school, and local residents who use the crossing, are united in this petition for a pelican crossing to replace the current zebra crossing at the earliest opportunity.
Thank you.
Does any member wish to move that the subject matter be referred to the appropriate member body?
Councillor 
Seconded?
Seconded Lord Mayor
All those in favour.
That's clearly carried.
Thank you very much.
Thank you  Item seven is membership of committees.
I call upon Councillor  to move a motion, details of which have been circulated.
Moved Lord Mayor
Seconded?
All in agreement?
Ok.
Item eight, which is Policy and Resources Committee, there are no recommendations arising from the meeting on the twenty second of October.
Which brings us on to item nine which is er employment action.
I call upon Councillor  to move the recommendations of the Community and Environment Services Committee, together with amendment A standing in his name.
Second
Second 
Call upon Councillor  to move amendment H standing in her name 
Councillor , I believe you want to nominate Councillor , do you?
I'm doing it for you.
Councillor ?
Thank you Lord Mayor.
Michael Howard, Secretary of State for Unemployment, in announcing employment action in Parliament, stated, this Government, have placed policies designed to lead to job creation and they will succeed in the future as they they have succeeded in the past.
With that sort of reference, it's no surprise that the Government's new plans to fiddle the unemployment figures is treated with disbelief and disdain.
These policies have pushed unemployment up to two point five million and rising.
That's despite thirty changes in the way that the unemployment figures are calculated.
The real figure is closer to three and a half million.
These policies have slashed manufacturing output and these policies have cut a massive two hundred and forty five million pound from the employment and youth training budgets for this year, which has led to a cut of eighty thousand places.
When the issue of employment action was discussed at the Community and Environment Committee in September, Councillor  was clinging desperately to her history books.
She told us that in 1979 unemployment was increasing at the astronomical figure of two thousand three hundred a week.
I will not seek to justify this, any more than I would expect the Tories to justify the three day week, the Suez Crisis or any other element of their sordid history, for what we are discussing is a situation facing thousands of people in this district today, and what we are gonna do to ensure that they have a future.
The situation today is not that two thousand three hundred people are joining the dole queues every day but that ov every week, but over twenty thousand.
In  there are four hundred and seven jobs registered with the Job Centre and twenty three thousand five hundred and twenty six registered unemployed.
The situation today is that there is not enough training places for the people who want them.
The situation today is that many sixteen to eighteen year olds, who were unable to get a training place, are disbarred from getting income support, and the situation today is that this country has the lowest level of skilled workers in the European Community.
And this is the result of Government policies that succeed.
God help us when they fail.
In  the cuts in the training budget this year have led to over two hundred trainee places disappearing.
One training organisation, which had taken a twenty three percent cut in funds in 1990 ninety one, had to take a further twenty percent cut this year, and the people who are worst affected by these cuts were the very people that the Tory Party had been crying crocodile tears over for so long.
Women returners, the black and Asian community, people with physical disability and people with learning difficulties.
They suffer disproportionately because when the cuts come it's the special needs support that many of these groups need that was the first to go.
It was the help with literacy and numeracy.
It was the help with English as a second language.
It was the initial training that helped to boost an individual's confidence.
These policies have ruined the opportunities and dreams of thousands of people throughout this district and have been carried out with no regard to the drastic effects they have had on people's lives.
But wait, on the political horizon there comes a general election.
Panic in Tory Party central office.
What can we do to make it look like we care about the unemployed?
What can we do to make it look like we actually care about training?
The first thing you do is announce half way through a year that they're gonna put back some, but not all, of the money they cut from the  budget.
There is no guarantee that this money will be available next year so training providers are now scrabbling around trying to work out ways of providing training up to the required standard in six months instead of the full year
Those against?
yes  
That is lost, thirty to forty nine.
Those in favour of the substantive motion incorporating amendment A please show.
Please show
That is carried, forty nine to thirty two.
. We now move on to item ten on the agenda, Local Management of Schools.
In accordance with standing order A twelve little C in force at the time, Councillor  of m notice of motion on Local Management of Schools was referred by the Council t on twenty third of April 1991  to the Education Committee.
The report of the Committee is set out in document T referred to on the agenda.
At the same time, at the same Council meeting, three amendments to the motion were formally moved by Councillor , Councillor  and ex-Councillor  respectively and seconded and were also submitted to the Committee.
I call upon Councillor  to move amendment C standing in his name.
Seconder?
Seconded Lord Mayor 
My Lord Mayor, the  Local Management of Schools scheme er was reviewed first in the light of consultation which went on during its first full year of operation.
It was by then already obvious that the schools had overcome their first reservations er about what the scheme had to offer and it was so obvious that they deserved recognition for their efforts that it led to my colleagues, Councillor  and  putting down the motion to Council in April of this year, drawing attention to the continuing success in schools throughout the district of the Local Management initiative.
Instead of joining in with my group in recognising this success and congratulating the managers, the party opposite showed its usual churlishness by trying to congratulate themselves for some reason or other.
They've shown opposition to the introduction of L M S right from the start and put every obstacle possible in the way of its success, and its implementation, and yet there they were congratulating themselves on how well it was working.
They tried to cloud the issue even further by mixing the question of L M S with the reforms which my group brought in while we were in control of the Council which is in stark contrast to the true situation.
The Local Management of Schools was due to be introduced from 1990 and the Conservative group in  had the foresight to see that if the scheme was given a fair wind, and the full support of the Council, it would come to be recognised as one of the greatest reforms of  education.
We realised that there could be some difficulties, and some apparent injustices might show up, but due to great consultative work put in by Councillors , and Mrs , often against great vilification and personal attack, many per problems were sorted out as they arose but we saw that i in April motions in amendments we see that it takes three full paragraphs of the amended motion to see that they deign to welcome initiatives which extend participation in decision making to schools, governors and parents.
But note the crudity of that paragraph, which still doesn't give credit to the head teachers and governors for the way in which they've worked, and the success which they achieved.
Then in the final paragraph of their er amendment the attempt to crow that the Labour Group has allowed schools to take full L M S when they were ready.
What arrogance that is, that they allowed the schools to take on the full role when over fifty percent of em were already willing and anxious to do so.
The arrangement of the Local Management of Schools is one of the best initiatives of the Conservative Government and it has freed schools from the heavy-handed control of Local Government, and in particular that of Labour controlled Authorities because it's a step into the unknown for some, with obviously some doubt at first, and many Labour Groups fed on those doubts with lies and threats but nevertheless it was taken up wholeheartedly by many schools.
In  we were fortunate in that the time of the introduction of L M S coincided with the all too brief period when this group was in control of the Council and as the window of opportunity opened to get  off to a flying start
hear hear
So the Local Authority was in the forefront of efforts to make Local Management a success.
By April 1989 every school had a computer system to help with School Management.
Outside London we were the first L E A to realise that this would be necessary.
We've invested well over a million pound in micro-computers for the teaching of pupils right across the three phases of first, middle, and upper schools.
Support for the new governors undertaking the management was without equal.
A widespread training programme was carried out to help governors and schools staff to meet their new tasks and obligations.
So that some two thousand people were involved in a major training programme.
A Governor Support Unit was set up and is still in operation and working well today.
The National Curriculum was introduced also, alongside L M S and we're already able to see the success of that now.
Testing of pupils has been introduced and is continuing to be improved in the light of experiences of its first year of work in spite of the criticisms, which are of method rather than of reason.
We can see that it's gonna provide parents and pupils with the continuous necessary information which they need to see how the they're wor working out, how they're progressing, and the need for further improvement.
We're now looking forward to teacher appraisal and the opportunities that this will give s school staff to enhance their own future development.
All of these initiatives were made more possible as a result of, and parallel to, Local Management of Schools and all in spite of the petty opposition of so many Labour Local Government controlling groups, who just can't bear the thought that the L E A is at last breaking free of absolute Local Government control.
In spite of the wording of the motion put forward by Labour members, I would point out that, under Conservative control, has spent three hundred and fifty eight pound per head compared with the Metropolitan District who average three hundred and seventeen.
I'm still talking about when we were in control.
Forty one per head more than the average of all comparable Authorities.
These figures were confirmed even more when we saw when we saw that we spent twenty five pound more a head of population on our schools than the average Metropolitan District.
This included spending almost twenty six a head more on secondary education and nearly five pound a head more on special education.
To complete this numerical picture, the average spend per head of further education was almost fifty five pound per head, nearly five pound fifty more than the average Metropolitan District.
So much then for the silly part of the Labour resolution of last April which tries to congratulate the Labour group on rescuing the L M S scheme.
It needed no rescuing.
I can assure them, and the  people as a whole, that the L M S scheme had been born, was living and progressing well when Labour took control of the Council.
It was already making such good progress that it's been able to grow and improve in spite of so much petty interference as the Labour Group has been able to put on it.
Thank goodness that time too is passing and it won't be long now before Local Management of Schools and Local Financial Management is fully implemented and beyond the reach of the vicious Labour attacks on it's future.
hear hear
So, my Lord Mayor, I am sure that the original resolution of Councillor  and , noting the continuing success of the Local Management Initiative, was the right one.
The resolution then being flashed out by the amendments of Councillor  and  recognising the work of members of governing bodies given so freely.
Also the importance which will come to be valued in future of the standard assessment tests.
You've only to read the new Parents Charter, which John Major is introducing, to realise this.
It will make it possible to have annual written reports on each child's progress.
Regular reports will be made by independent inspectors on the strengths and weaknesses of each school and published tables will give parents the ability to compare the performance of local schools.
This will then overcome this silly bigotry of the Labour Group in trying to ostracise the opted-out school in  and the  College, when this Charter is in place, we'll be able to compare every facet of education across the district because the results will be published for all to see and these two schools will not be able to be frozen out of that exercise.
All of this is coming about as a direct result of the original plan for the Local Management of Schools and it's continuing success, in spite of the Labour Group and not because of it, and so I move the amendment my Lord Mayor.
Councillor  
It i my Lord Mayor, it is indeed colossal cheek and pure hypocrisy on the part of the Tory Group, and particularly on the part of Councillor , to be putting forward the resolution congratulating schools on their success in responding to the introduction of Local Management, when they and the Government, between them impose such conditions that could only lead to chaos and disorder.
The Tory Group, you will all recall, imposed l Local Management on all except small schools in the shortest possible time.
And whatever Councillor  says, there was an inadequate period for that essential preparation, both within the directorate and for heads and teachers, to allow them to come to terms with what Local Manage of the schools meant.
Why did they do this?
It's clear now, if it wasn't clear then, that they were willing to sacrifice the well-being of schools, of their staff and pupils, for the glory of their leader and for national recognition of the then Councillor , as the most ardent of Thatcher disciples and ensuring for him another step towards that coveted safe Tory seat
For that end, for that end, you people over there, who took a decision to implement Local Management at the earliest possible time, regardless of the state of preparation of each particular school, regardless of the resources of staff and equipment and, if that was not enough, you also introduced a cut of thirteen million pounds in education funding.
Can anyone wonder that disbelief and despondency settled upon many schools in time to give way to anger and protest at the possibility of carrying out tasks that has been imposed on them under impossible conditions.
Are your memories so short over there, or is it that you have deliberately forgotten or ignored the protests of that time.
Do you not remember that two hundred head teachers gathered and protested and handed back their budgets?
Do you not remember that when Labour took over
You do in fact remember as c Councillor  has said, that when Labour took over and schools were given the chance to change their minds and withdraw at least to change y to change the decision and withdraw from immediate L M S, then half of the schools chose to delay it's introduction.
Surely by that time it had become clear that if the Government plans for Local Management were ill-conceived, that the plans for Local Management were ill-conceived and had not been properly thought out.
Surely by that time many of you must have realised that  had got you into a right pickle over L M S and that you some of you I believe felt that but none of you spoke out about it.
It was left to the Labour Group, on taking over control, to find a way out of the morass that you had created.
Since then we have redirected plans to ease the burden on schools, given recognition to the increased work load for clerical staff and to the importance of the work they do.
A great deal of time and energy has gone into dealing with anomalies and revising the formula for funding so that it distributes more fairly on the basis of need.
It is much improved but still does not deal satisfactorily with disadvantages that some schools face.
Many Heads have expressed to me their appreciation of what the lu Labour Group has done for them to rescue them from the plight that the Tories imposed on them.
But make m n no mistake, make no mistake, the situation is still difficult, because the Government imposes conditions and changes are all so often that the resolution of problems is difficult, as you will see from the Director of Education's statement.
Problems problems over the alloc because the allocation is mainly based on pupil numbers and not on pupil's needs, by the use of average salaries and not actual salaries, by changes in level of grants for support and training, and the needs of the school and the children.
And we still have L M S to com t to face.
Schools are indeed to be congratulated in what they have done in the face of what you pr prepared for them.
Only the the congratulations are implicit it seems to me in what you have said to the Labour Group for finding a way out of the problems that you had created.
Schools recognise this and you too in your hearts will recognise this.
Only because of Labour proposals and actions have schools managed to deal as well as they have with L M S. Congratulations, I say, go to the Labour Group.
Councillor , Councillor 
Thank you Lord Mayor 
on about and I suspect that Councillor must be on about .
The Conservative Group do indeed congratulate the Government for it's far-sighted legislation to make our schools more accountable to the people they serve.
hear hear
Local Management of Schools has been  to many of our schools.
Head teachers and governing bodies under L M S control their own spending and determine their own priorities.
The Conservative Group put forward proposals to give this power to the schools as soon as possible, as Councillor  did say, and many of our schools took advantage, around fifty percent I believe .
Despite this, the Labour Group did persuade some schools to delay implementation of the L M S Initiative and I rather suspect that some of these schools regret this decision today.
The schools who took the challenge are happy to be in control of their own affairs.
Councillor  has said that we have, that his group do not believe in the testing of seven year olds.
He claims that it will be a waste of time and money.
This is a disgrace and wi we will never agree with him on this issue.
It would deny our better schools informing parents on how they were doing.
The Government's policies have meant more choice  sorry, and higher standards in educational spending per pupil.
This is over forty percent above the level in Labour's last year.
Allowing for inflation the total budget for L E A's this year is around seventeen point five billion pounds, nearly sixteen percent more than last year.
Parents have been given a bigger role than ever before.
They can pick and help their schools to which they send their children.
They can play a very very key part on governing bodies.
We welcome these initiatives.
Labour would cut choice and standards by scrapping the C T C's, grammar schools and grant maintained schools.
What a disgrace.
In conclusion, Lord Mayor, the Conservatives welcome the fact that head teachers now control their own ship.
Teacher, pupils and parents now know who their captain is.
The Conservatives launched this ship and we will do all in our power to stop the Labour Group of Group from scuttling it.
My Lord Mayor 
Councillor 
That's you  
I'd just like to remind Councillor  of one or two things and then spend a little bit of time talking about some of the gimmicks that the Tories have introduced over this past ten years.
I'm glad Councillor  reminded er Councillor  reminded Councillor  erm about the introduction of L M S, when over two hundred teachers did appear outside  to protest about the introduction of it, along with cuts in budgets.
And erm, whilst those schools are still suffering from under-funding, at least they can er gain some erm solace, consolation from the fact that er the Tories seem to be able to replace their chairs, opposition spokespersons of education almost at will.
Councillor  did in fact try to take some credit for one or two things in his speech.
He talked of the Governor Support Unit and I'd like to remind Councillor  and his group that they were responsible for taking over a hundred posts out of the administrative section of .
The Governor Support Unit, Lord Mayor, did not exist under their structure.
Councillor  talked about er spending levels and he may be interested to know that the N U T have done a recent survey of education spending and found  to be sixty first out of a hundred L E A's surveyed, so that doesn't quite stack up with some of his statistics.
Of course, as Councillor  rightly pointed out, they did take thirteen million pounds out of the budget.
As far as the Parents Charter is concerned, that document is gathering dust in many school cupboards as governors, including some Tory governors, refuse to send it out.
It means nothing in terms of dealing with the many problems before education today.
Councillor  and Councillor  mentioned testing and they're dead right, I oppose it, it's an irrelevance, a complete distraction.
What they want is a league table of young children, those that pass and those that fail.
Can I le remind Councillor  though that five out of six schools in his ward recently sent a letter to the D E S and the Education Minister opposing testing in schools.
Lord Mayor
Can I say, Lord Mayor
Can I say, Lord Mayor, that I am not, I am not a vindictive person
but did  grammar really expect to get away with including the Christmas dinner in their schools meals budget?
That is, that is the whole truth Lord Mayor, and nothing but the truth.
and, Lord Mayor, can I mention the disgraceful behaviour of that god father of the City 
Who?
in defending the school against the advice of his own officials, who supported  in its findings backed by the audit report into those figures on the schools meals budget.
If any school in this Authority, including  tries to take more than they deserve, tries to be greedy in taking more money from the rest of  schools, I will oppose it and I hope every member of this Council does too.
Moving on to that other well known gimmick, that elitist Tory academy up the road called the  College.
Can anyone, Lord Mayor, condone spending seventy nine times more money on the children of that school
You're lying
than the, the truth, Councillor , nothing but the truth .
Can anyone condone that sort of spending when  schools are crumbling, when we're short of teachers, books and equipment for the National Curriculum.
No, Lord Mayor, no one with any justice could condone that sort of spending.
I am extremely pleased to be able to say that shortly, Lord Mayor, we will be able to consider the future of the T T C under a Labour Government and under a Labour controlled Council, and I can't wait.
I can't wait to allow all  children to benefit from that eight million pound school up the road.
Can I just, Lord Mayor, point to one or two of the inequalities with the present L M S scheme, and in particular the average national teacher costs?
It's something that the Government have continuously ignored but is a major problem to many schools.
In this Authority that one proposition stands to lose some fifty teachers to  schools and it's far worse in many other districts.
What it's essentially about is getting rid of the most experienced teachers in the district.
Can that be good for education?
It can't surely, but it's what the Government want to do with L M S. Of course, they have a real agenda behind Local Management which is more to do with market- led economy education, competition, evasiveness, elitiveness, the end of the Local Authority.
And they're using the principle of devolution and delegation, of participation in decision making, as a vehicle for bringing that about.
Councillor  is on record, in fact not long after taking

Right so erm.
You you're the manager of erm the  Building Society in ?
Yes.
Erm how long has this branch been in ?
we opened end of nineteen eighty, so just over six years now.
Mhm.
And very successful it's been too.
Mhm.
Very pleased to be here.
And the performance, both at this branch and as a spin off, our city centre branch in  Street, which has benefited from us being here, and the contacts we m we've made while been here.
Excellent.
Mhm.
Very pleased.
What you know when when a building society is you know when it when a new branch is opened up.
Erm you know, some people would say you know, er  seeing the kind of publicity that  has had, that it would be it might be quite risky to er to o open the business of a building society here.
Erm so what kind of what kind of research goes into into erm choosing where to actually site one?
Well we had we had to look into it very carefully.
We looked into this are in terms of the population here.
The potential  we could receive here, erm the kind of people who live here, the numbers of people who live here now and in the future, the types of housing and housing again, in the future and all in all a g a great deal of study went into the area.
Mhm.
And in the end we decided to open here.
There was three main reasons.
Firstly there are there were no other building societies here anyway.
Mhm.
So we we've cornered the market as it were.
No real competition there.
Er secondly we've got a link with , the large tobacco factory.
Group savings schemes and such like which have been in existence for many years.
And with the  factory being so close, it would offer them a service, by being closer to them, and improve our links.
And thirdly related to that point, with there were a lot of existing  members in this area anyway.
So it seemed sensible to move into this area, take advantage of that for ourselves, and provide them with a better service.
And again that has proved successful.
Mhm.
So this is an example of erm a business that which has moved to  and done very very well.
Very well indeed, yes.
We're very pleased.
very successful.
Mhm.
In terms of local people, erm have you got many local people who are customers?
Yes.
In the su around about this area, the the local housing estates, a great many of our investing members just live practically round the corner, so we get to know them very well.
For the mortgage side, we've got a lot of properties in the area that are mortgaged.
But this particular branch has got a large area stretching out like , as far as .
A lot of out mortgage business comes form the more outlying districts.
i think it's fair to to say the majority of our investing members, just live round and about.
Mhm.
Again due to the local er  schemes and such like.
Got a lot of members from there.
Which we see in very regularly.
Mhm.
The fact the fact that erm this branch is erm situated in a fairly disadvantaged erm area, erm does that have any implications at all?
Or not?
Erm I wouldn't think so w w it means that we have to get to know the the local clients very well indeed.
We get to to know their problems better ad understand them better.
We get to know them better.
Which means we can provide a better service.
It means we our staff are able to take more time er to understand and advise our clients which we need to do.
Erm and there's no real problems because of the area I wouldn't think.
Mhm.
But er in fact it's probably an advantage because  the people who come in are generally  they're very friendly they're they've got a good spirit amongst themselves.
And we find it's a warm friendly area which  er a a poss possibly a bigger, more higher paced environment wouldn't get.
mhm.
Er.
Yeah.
So  you're saying it actually has quite a lot of advantages ?
Mm.
Yes.
Th th th th the people round here are excellent.
Mhm.
And there seems to be a good spirit around and Yeah we're we're very pleased to be here, you know .
Mhm.
We've found a lot of friendliness and warmth.
How how does that co you spoke about friendliness and warmth here, How does it compare working  with the other places you've worked at?
Previously I've worked in city centre environments.
Which I have enjoyed it's been er a bit of a challenge coming here because in the city centre, business-wise, you're surrounded by the professions such as estate agents and solicitors.
And the membership, your investors had to actually make the effort to come to you.
Whereas here the situation is reversed.
Erm  we're surrounded by the membership, and it's actually me which has to go out to visit the estate agents and solicitors and such like.
But I found in the city centre, that er I did enjoy working there, but it it can be a bit of a cold and unfriendly place because it's so such a rapid pace of life.
Mhm.
Whereas here, you're still very busy, but er you have the membership just on your doorstep and you can get to meet them and know them a lot closer than you would when you're having er a large volume of people filing through your doors in the city centre.
Mhm.
if you you said you preferred to work here, you preferred working here to other places?
I think I do yes yes.
I I did enjoy going to the city centre, but so far er in the few months I've been in , I've enjoyed it tremendously yes.
Mhm.
When I s first spoke to you erm earlier I mean, like last week, erm you were telling me er something about erm the involvement that this branch has had with the local community.
So what do you think about that?
Yes with with the membership being on the doorstep, we do get to know them a lot better.
Er we do have to get involved with the community and we just find ourselves drawn into the community without any real problems.
We've been able to advise and help the the members.
And enabled us to to be to be known throughout the local streets, the local shopkeepers and such like.
So we find ourselves drawn in very easily.
On a more specific nature we've sponsored a five-a-side football competition at the local  Leisure Centre, for the last couple of years.
Providing the trophies, getting to know the people involved, and getting publicity obviously for ourselves from that, which has been very rewarding, very enjoyable.
Er we're involved in the local  Carnival recently.
Er had a stall there again, getting to know the people involved.
Various other things, there's the local  Day Centre.
Which is a local centre for physically handicapped adults.
We've got to know the the people who run the centre, fairly well.
Erm helping out whenever we can.
And helping them with advice as well.
So all in all, yeah, we get we get involved with the community as much as possible.
Both as a conscious decision, because of the business we do er need to be known around the area.
And also for the enjoyment and personally, the the satisfaction you get, rather than going home at five o'clock and forgetting all about .
Much rather be involved and I find it much more rewarding personally.
Mhm.
In terms of erm the fact that you've got f erm fairly sizeable ethnic minority population.
Mm.
Erm what kind of efforts have been made to get customers 
First of all we offer a good a service as possible, we try to get to know the individuals, and help them and give them individual advice.
Erm I think that's ab the best that though we can get word of mouth, erm getting to know the individuals.
Erm also w we've had several window displays er reflecting the local issues.
Such as we had an exhibition of Afro Caribbean art,last year, from a local sender just up er  Road a little bit.
And that produced a lot of interest.
From the local community.
Had people coming in, they noticed that we aren't just a building there offering financial services, but we were actually interested again, in the local community.
And the interest which bore out was was of great use.
It wasn't the kind of display which we could have had in in a city centre environment, er but in this area, er it shows that we're receptive to people's needs and we care about what goes on.
And it helped.
The the individuals, the the members, to see that we we cared about what what their interests were.
And they came in and chatted to us about it.
Er it was very very pleasing.
Mhm.
Went very well.
And it's something which we're doing again in the future.
Mhm.
With regard to the flats I mean, one o erm  the flats have been up since the late sixties and erm now they're gonna be coming down.
Mm.
And they erm were a large area of housing in the local area.
Erm  what do you feel about the fact that those are gonna be coming down?
I think the flats still have a stigma about them.
They're a lot of the problems in  tend to be directed towards or because of the flats.
They're certainly a controversial issue.
Erm so if they do come down, or when they do come down, I think it it will benefit the area, as long as something better is repl is there to replace them.
Erm I think  very many people live in the flats sort of thing, and and they're going to need rehousing.
A lot of them are going out of the area, but I think er I'd imagine that a large majority or a a large proportion certainly would wish to stay in .
And the first priority must be to find them suitable replacement housing.
I've noticed in  and , there's a lot of new town houses being built.
New brick built standard sort of more traditional type housing, which are very attractive and appear to be very well built.
And I think that could be the area, or the the type of development which could go on the flats.
Mhm.
Er the present flat site.
Er new housing has to be a priority in this area I I should have I would think.
And this type of more traditional housing er would be preferable.
Mhm.
n my in my mind.
My opinion.
Mhm.
Going back to what you said earlier on on er on this question, erm you mentioned that erm the flats were subject to controversy.
Mm.
Erm what are the kind o obviously you've been here a few months.
Mm.
Erm what are the kind of comments that people have made to you about the flats?
Concerning the flats?
I mean how have they been seen by local mu community?
How you know,w what kind of views do do people have ?
Yes we have.
A lot of a lot er of members who actually live in the flats, and all of our members practically know about the flats, and the the general impression is that they are a in a way a a a friendly and er a community type place.
But they're they're very disadvantaged and they're a bit of an eyesore.
Generally.
So the impression which I get from the locals, is that they'll be happier when the flats are down.
As long as they're replaced by something which is an improvement.
Mhm.
The general feeling is, Get the flats away and the place will improve.
Mhm.
And that generally comes form the flat owners which I've talked to meself.
Mhm.
Do you so you've got quite a f some customers from the flats ?
Mm.
Certainly, yes, some some people who live in the flats, come along to the branch quite regularly, and generally the the impression which they give me is that they'll they will be happier when they're the flats have been replaced.
Mhm.
you you personally would like some kind of hou some housing to be put there .
Personally, yes, this isn't er a policy view but living in the ar or living around the area, working in this area, I think the area could be improved, if s the flats were replaced by something which looked more attractive.
Because the don't look attractive.
Mhm.
And er they seem to be the cause of all the problems.
If they could be improved by er sorry replaced by housing of a higher standard, erm generally made to look more attractive, landscaped and such like, then I think the area as a whole will improve and it'll attract people to the area.
Mhm.
Which I think should be er an important er an important idea in their minds.
In the minds of the people who decide what's going to replace them with.
Mhm.
What about for local businesses, erm what do you think could be done to actually to attract more businesses to the area?
I think the first thing is to improve the appearance, because the area itself appears to me to be to be thriving.
There's a lot of larger shops, we've got Boots just over the road and er a lot er of good businesses round about.
There's one or two empty shops, but they appear to be moving fairly quickly and getting taken over.
So the important thing I would say, is just to improve the physical appearance.
Because a lot of the shops and house fronts which the the bus routes are on, the main roads are on, do look tatty.
And if they could be given a a better appearance, then the the people who see them, the people who drive through on th main road, such as Road and  Boulevard, they could see that the area isn't as run down as often the medium makes it out to be.
Erm to me it is a thriving and very good community, and all it really needs is to look as it's thriving.
Mhm.
Erm perhaps money could be spent on on face-lifting the areas, because a lot of the structures the s themselves seem very stable and sound.
It's just the actual A lick of paint here and there basically and 
Mhm.
Erm Other areas in which I've lived in I lived in the  in an area in Hull, where the whole of this inner city area was revitalized simply by giving things new front doors and new gutters and drainage and tidying up the small gardens that there were, and providing things such as railings.
This was all done by er a local authority grant.
And the whole street was revitalized in a in a in a swoop.
And that kind of thing on a perhaps a little larger scale, could work here I think.
Mhm.
Yeah that's quite interesting.
That's an example having worked somewhere
Mm.
and er the response there and that 
Yes.
works?
How well did it work?
That worked very well indeed er over a period of what twelve to eighteen months, the whole street, which was mainly residential, was brought up to standard up to a higher standard, simply by providing new fronts.
Mhm.
Erm th the the bits of the properties which people actually saw.
And that produced a spin off effect, because the people who actually lived in properties or the shopkeepers in the properties, they could see that the outsides were improved, and that provided a spur for them to provide the insides.
And it certainly got er the community spirit going and got everyone working together.
Someone had given the impetus to sort the outside external improvements for starters, and that provided the spur to for them to do the internal work.
And as a whole, the whole street was improved very quickly.
Mhm.
And it was very successful.
I mean a do you think that kind of thing would work here?
I think it could do.
Yes.
Erm as I say the the people here ha have got the spirit enough the they they're quite happy to to improve the area the they want to see the the area erm go up.
There's a lot of pride in the area.
And if they were given the opportunity or or and the impetus to to start to do something positive, I'm sure they would take that up.
Mhm.
Just talking about there about the people in the area.
Mm.
Erm how much community spirit have you found does exist?
Very very much so.
Erm perhaps the Since I came to the area about four months ago, the thing that I've noticed most is the people are very proud and they're very friendly, very open people.
And s we get a mixture a large mixture of people coming to our office, because this type of area, we are a building society, er w w we see all manner of people coming in here, and the way in which the , they mix very well.
Complete strangers come in start chatting to us and to each other, and the the  as an area, it seems to pull everyone together.
They realize that they have problems and but they seem so willing to stand by each other and the the spirit which I've noticed is very h 

Good morning erm, oh, it does work, it booms.
At least everyone can hear, right?
Good morning then, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to this annual general meeting of the National Council for Voluntary Organisations.
My first, er, but sad duty is simply to say that Sir Kenneth , our President, had hoped to be here, but he's had er, an operation and er, he is not really quite well enough, so I was asked as a Vice-President, whether I would stand in for him, at the weekend, and er I shall do my best, and erm, I'm glad to have to opportunity of doing one or two things, but we'll come to those in due time.
Er, I should also re , remind you so my brief informs me, of the no smoking rule, which was adopted at last year's er, A G M, and which means there's no smoking er, in this room at any rate, and certainly not during the meeting.
Now, erm, I think that er, we er, should first, er, seek to adopt the minutes of the last meeting which I hope you have all seen and studied with due care and attention, and er, I should like to ask first whether there are any amendments which anyone would wish to put forward, to those minutes?
And if not I will move from the Chair, the adoption of the minutes of last year's A G M. Those in favour of that?
And those against?
Carried, nemine contradicente.
That wasn't bad for early in the morning?
Erm, good, now then we come to er, well perhaps I should ask first whether anyone wishes to raise any questions arising out of those er, minutes?
Please.
Earmarking round the U K  yes?
I think it was resolution six on disabled people, er, resolution eight, sorry.
The sentence reads , the Council instructs the executive committee, to take whatever steps it considers necessary to ensure that this Council shall employ at least underlined, the minimum legally required number of disabled people.
I couldn't read a reference in the Annual Report to a review of the this matter, or an agreement that the Council had actually taken this on board, and it was operating.
I'm hoping to hear that that is the case.
Simon  to er, reply to that point, thank you.
I hope people at the back can hear, erm, we obviously took up action on the resolution passed last year, in two or three different ways.
Firstly, erm, we undertook a survey of our own membership er, in order to see what sort of action people were taking themselves, er, about disablement issues, and especially about the employment of disabled people within their own organisation.
Erm, we had I think in fairness, a fairly small response to that, and the executive had a discussion recently about how to take the matter forward further.
We included in that discussion at the executive what N C V O's own position was and how it would seek to improve own practice.
It was agreed at, I think the last executive committee, that as a follow-up to that survey, and to take on board er, N C V O's own practice, a small working group was going to be established of people from disability organisations, those which are both disabled-led organisations, and others, to enable us to take that forward over the next year.
So action has been taken, both in terms of our membership and N C V O for itself.
Thank you.
Does that erm, answer your question?
yes, that's perfect.
Good, any other questions arising out of last year's minutes?
Alright, now we come to the erm, first resolution, erm, but before I invite Alan Morgan, to er, er, er, propose this resolution let me just say, it will of course be the last occasion, I've never seen such a remarkable er, demonstration of the interest which we all have in the future of Alan .
You are surrounded by the latest edition of the N C V O News, so you know that this is the last occasion.
I shall have another word to say about him, you're not getting off as lightly as that Alan, er, but erm, I, I think that erm, what I should now do, is to invite him, as our Chairman over the year in question, to er, move the adoption of the Annual Report.
Mr. Chairman, nineteen eighty nine has been a significant year for the voluntary sector, and we have witnessed some important developments, including the publication of the White Paper, Charities, a Framework for the Future.
The announcement of the efficiency scrutiny of government funding of the voluntary sector, legislative changes in local government, and Housing Bill, are also likely to change the relationship between voluntary organisations and local authorities.
Also the government's recent announcement on Community Care will give voluntary organisations new responsibilities in this important area.
There have been significant changes in Brit , British society over the past ten years.
Whereas a decade ago, voluntary organisations was perceived largely as an adjunct to the state, now we are increasingly seen as equal and independent partners, working alongside the public and private sectors.
Their importance in the economy still needs to be given recognition.
We hope that two initiatives by government this year, will help to change that.
The first is the White Paper on charity law, which we believe combines the flexibility of the present system of regulation with a set of controls designed to increase public confidence in charitable giving.
The second is the scrutiny review of voluntary sector funding, which we hope will encourage the government to use their funding as a strategic resource, to provide a stable back-drop for other forms of fund raising, to assign a proper status to voluntary sector funding and to devise more coherent arrangements for its ad , administration.
We are confident these reforms will contribute to the recognition of the voluntary sector, not only as a third force, but as a sector in its own right.
At the same time N C V O has been active in addressing voluntary organisations own ability to meet the challenges of a changing world.
Among the initiatives which we have undertaken this year, is the establishment of a working party under the Chairmanship of Lord Nathan, to make recommendations on developing and maintaining high standards of effectiveness and efficiency within the sector.
Matters under consideration include the role and training of trustees, fundraising, management education, public relations and financial accountability.
It must however, be emphasised that these matters are not an end in themselves, but a means of enabling voluntary organisations to achieve their aims and objectives effectively, and I understand that that working party report will be published in February, and we all await it very much.
Voluntary organisations' relationship with government is but one aspect.
It is equally important that voluntary organisations develop an interface with the private sector.
To enable us to do this, N C V O in May, launched a corporate affiliation scheme to enhance the understanding of in , industry about the voluntary sector, and vice versa.
To promote partnership between companies and voluntary organisations.
Our corporate affiliation scheme which will provide a tailor-made service to companies wishing to develop their links with the voluntary sector, has already attracted more than twenty leading companies into membership.
N C V O has the voice of the voluntary sector in England, plays a full part in shaping the development of our society alongside government, the corporate sector, and others.
Views of N C V O are based upon policy analysis and development work, with it members, and the wider national and local voluntary sector.
Meetings for our members have been held on both of these issues, and in response to the scrutiny review, we circulated our membership with our detailed submission to the government to inform their own responses.
Through N C V O's constructive dialogue with government and Parliament, through the Parliamentary Panel on Charity Law, chaired by Tim Boswell, M P, and serviced by N C V O, voluntary organisations have been kept closely in touch with developments on Charity Law.
When the White Paper appeared in May there was much to welcome, but not a lot to surprise.
In response to N C V O's growing and varied membership, the executive committee have agreed to changes in the way that the organisation works with its members on policy issues, which has helped break down barriers between different interests, as organis , as organisations now meet around generic issues, and issues of concern.
A good example of this has been the work on broadcasting and the voluntary sector, which N C V O has embarked upon this year, in response to rapid changes in the broadcasting field, and the government White Paper, Broadcasting in the Nineties, Quality Choice and Competition.
A range of organisations including Age Concern, the Community Radio Association, Community Service Volunteers and the Volunteers Centre U K, are now working together with N C V O in the broadcasting consortium, which aims to maintain and develop standards of quality in broadcasting, and promote relationships between broadcasters and voluntary organisations.
We have tried to respond to increasing demands from what is now a growing membership.
In the spring of nineteen eighty-nine, a number of voluntary organisations involved in running telephone help-lines, came to us about B T's plans to introduce compulsory itemised billing, for all customers over the next few years.
Help-lines were very concerned about the effect of that possible breach of confidentiality could have on their services, and the vulnerable people they assist.
We responded swiftly co-ordinating a report outl , outlining the possible effects of itemised billing.
Through case studies in th , entitled Breach of Confidence, the ensuing widespread publicity and pressure at B T's, A M in July, from N C V O has caused B T to think again.
I think a good example of N C V O helping voluntary organisations to help others.
This has been another busy year in Parliament, with major legislation affecting the voluntary sector, including the Local Government and Housing Bill and water and electricity privatisation.
On electricity privatisation, N V C O played an important role in bringing together voluntary organisations representing consumers of the service with environmental organisations.
N C V O works to improve the effectiveness of voluntary organisations at all levels by providing support through advice, training, and consultancies, on very wide variety of issues, and problems.
This includes advice on management, financial management, new technology, legal, personnel and other issues.
Let me give you a few examples of the way in which our departments work.
For many organisations, the first port of call is the legal department, which this year has continued to receive a range of enquiries on charity formation, interpretation of constitutions, company law, trading activities, and the contracting out of services, amongst others.
During this year, the legal department has had up to three hundred active cases in hand at any one time, and this shows no sign of slowing down.
Our management unit has played a key role in the development of efficient and effective management within the sector.
Over this year, the unit has built good links with the Open Universities, and others developing management resources.
It is working to ensure that management training is relevant to the sector's real needs and is more widely available.
Advice through workshops, training and consultancies is a cost effective means of taking N C V O's expertise to those who need it most.
An example of this is the Local Development Unit's short courses programme which organised over one hundred courses last year, through local centres and local trainers.
We all know and we all experience that voluntary organisations are changing and are having to change.
We're having to become in many ways increasingly professional in a competitive world.
The increasing impact of this greater professionalism particularly on salaries for instance has led to a consultancy being provided by N C V O's Personnel Unit, on appropriate levels of pay in one organisation.
Each week in addition to the many requests for advice N C V O receives, hundreds of information enquiries about the work of N C V O, about the work of its specialised units, and the work of the voluntary sector as a whole.
Our information and intelligent unit receives an average of two thousand letters and over four thousand phone calls each year, as well as countless visitors to the library, many from overseas.
The enquiries have been from those in government, both central and local, researchers as well as students, and schoolchildren.
Our specialist units also receive many requests for information, and our newest project, WasteWatch has been no exception.
The awakening of interest in green issues has meant that WasteWatch in its second year of operation, has seen a dramatic increase in enquiries on waste recycling.
Many of those enquiries coming from schoolchildren, which prompted WasteWatch to develop an information pack for use in schools, to ensure that future generations are less wasteful of the world's resources.
This year, we launched a new information bulletin, N C V O News, which our Chairman today said, you're surrounded by, and I'm extremely embarrassed by.
A monthly publication, containing information and articles on the voluntary sector.
Over two thousand organisations receive it, your initial response has been very encouraging, and many people saying within the sector, that it is essential reading.
We try and produce a wealth of information and research both for and about the voluntary sector.
One report which everyone in N C V O and many more besides wouldn't be without, is the Voluntary Agencies Directory, from which N C V O publishing in print, Bedford Square Press puts out.
We try and bring the voluntary sector together to discuss areas of common concern, and a major event in April was training for employment nineteen eighty-nine.
The first national voluntary sector on employment training.
Another issue of concern to many organisations is the government's review of the National Health Service.
The subject again of a conference in April, the N H S and the Voluntary Sector, the Next Forty Years.
The conference enabled voluntary organisations who attended to consider the implications of the review for them and their work.
I happened to chair that conference, and I think I was surprised by the depressing effect that this reform was seen to hold for so many of our membership, particularly the smaller, local voluntary organisations.
The international flavour of our work was much in evidence at the first Johns Hopkins' International Fellow Inthralenthropy Conference held in London in July.
We contributed to the programme of this major event, jointly sponsored by the charities, Aid Foundation, and the Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore.
Now let me for just a few minutes, look forward if that's not too presumptuous for a chair who is moving out.
Over the coming year, we expect to consolidate and develop this work.
Much work will be necessary to help voluntary organisations devise appropriate funding structures, to support and an increasingly central role in service provision, and to respond effectively to the outcome of the government's efficiency scrutiny.
We will be promoting debate on Charity Law issues, and on how voluntary organisations should organise and manage themselves in order to respond to the contract culture, which is being created by changes in the organisation of Community Care, the N H S, the role of local authorities, and other fields.
We also intend to play a full part in the debate around the single European market, and nineteen ninety-two.
As we move towards the next century, voluntary organisations will need to develop further their contribution not only to our national life, but also to the international community.
Against these dramatic changes, we intend to remain at the centre as an effective resource for the voluntary sector, and an important bridge between the sector and others.
Voluntary organisations, speaking on the basis of our wide experience in local communities and in national life, are an influential voice which is respected throughout society.
Ours is a voice which cannot be ignored, but if we are to use our influence to full effect we must both recognise and be capable of using our strengths.
This is where we at N C V O feel we can play a vital role by helping the voluntary sector to recognise this shared interest and above all to act cohesively.
For the last three years, N C V O has been at the centre of the critical debates.
If we build on and enhance that experience we will be in the right position to face the new decade with confidence and vision.
In November nineteen eighty-six, I was elected to succeed Peter Jay as Chairman of N C V O. This year, the call of other duties compel me to step down.
I feel that, a very reluctant decision in many ways, but it is, I can assure you, a realistic one.
I have found the experience of working in the voluntary sector, first of all as Chair of C V S N A, and vice-Chair of N C V O, for I think about five or six years, and finally as Chairman, in many ways on top of all my other work, exhausting.
But in many ways it's been enlightening, exciting, stimulating, and above all enjoyable.
I think you would agree that it would invidious to single out any one person to thank.
There are N C V O members and staff, my fellow honorary officers and executive members, and so many others who have made it such a rewarding time.
Above all I would like to thank the sector for your friendship and warm support, and I have every confidence that Sir Jeffrey, my successor, I assume that resolution two will go through unan , unanimously, will be car , will be able to carry forward with your warm support, the vision I tried to outline for the next year.
Finally Chairman, I formally move that the Annual Report for nineteen eighty-eight eighty-nine, be received and adopted, that the statements of account for eighty eight, eighty nine, be received and adopted, and that Touche Ross and Company be appointed auditors for the ensuing year.
Thank you all very much.
I now call upon Jeffrey Foster, er, honorary treasurer to second that resolution.
Thank you.
The accounts that you have for this year, have been rearranged.
They've been rearranged and now comply with the statement of recommended practice on accounting for charities.
I commend this statement to you, those of you who are responsible for the accounts of your organisations, I hope you will also seek to comply with the, the standard, so that the charities of all organisations, the accounts of all charities can be seen clearly, so that er, you can understand the activities of your organisations from the accounts, and so that one charity can better be compared with another charity.
End of commercial though.
The effect on our own accounts is that we now show all the mainstream activities of the Council together, and they are then separated out from the entries for all the other funds, appeals, and trust funds and so on.
This enables us to show clearly the most important features of the accounts which are the volume of the mainstream activity of the Council, and I'm sad to say the deficit that we incur on that mainstream activity.
Last year, I reported to you a deficit of three hundred and thirty thousand.
Over ten percent of the turnov , turnover of the Council, and which was in fact doubled from the size of the deficit from the year before that.
I had hoped this year to be able to report a turn round and some substantial progress towards our target of achieving a nil deficit for the financial year nineteen ninety-one ninety-two.
In fact though, we have merely halted the trend of increasing deficits rather than reversed it, and the deficit for the current year is three hundred and forty four thousand.
The reasons for this deficit are largely associated with the, the trend of pay and price increases outstripping our income, and outstripping our projections of what we would have to spend.
I think the, this is quite well illustrated by the figures on employees, where the numbers employed fell by getting on for ten percent, though our spending on employees remained about the same, partly as a result of pay increases, partly also, as a result of changes in the profile of grades of the staff at the Council, and a movement towards better staff, better paid, and then finally the saving we make each year as turnover of staff occurs, and we don't have to pay salaries during the handover period from one person to another, that saving that has reduced because the turnover of staff has reduced.
I have to say also that the future looks even tougher for us.
The current trend of pay and price increases is more than we had hoped, and it's, it's certainly more than er, than er, the planned increase in our income will cover, and I have to say that the rate of turnover of staff has reduced even further and so we will be spending more on staff for that reason than we had planned.
Nevertheless our target of erm, achieving a nil deficit by nineteen ninety-one ninety-two does remain, and therefore radical action is required to enable the Council to continue to deliver services effectively in the context of continued financial constraint.
And we will therefore need to exercise great judgement and realism in the assumptions we make in planning for the future.
Not only on, on the expenditure and the changes required, but also on planning our response to changes which will happen in the future, because it is unlikely that we will ever be able to forecast everything which will happen to us exactly.
The deficit this year was met from the legacy fund and the appeal fund.
The appeal fund contributed two hundred thousand which is its target for annual income.
The balance was met from the legacy fund.
Overall if you look at the balance sheet, it still appears quite healthy, erm, nevertheless, I must point out that the balance sheet is composed largely of funds with specific purposes, and these specific purposes do not include simply propping up deficits on the mainstream activities.
So we can't use the funds in our balance sheet, simply to carry on the way we are, we have to change.
And we need to use the reserves that we do have in the balance sheet, we need to spend them wisely in order to achieve our objectives, our objectives for change, and we must recognise that they can only be spent once.
Nevertheless I would like to end on, on a brighter note, erm, those of you who are avid students of the accounts will have spotted the contingent liability of twenty eight thousand six hundred and sixty.
Basically we are required to report anything erm, any liability which we know about, which doesn't actually formally have to appear in the main accounts but which could arise in the future.
I'm happy to say that this, this matter which arose from a misunderstanding on the basis of a grant from the European Social Fund.
This matter has now been resolved and no liability exists for the Council.
I therefore second the, the first resolution, that the report and accounts should be adopted and the auditors should be reappointed.
Thank you erm, Jeffrey.
Now er, before I put the resolution to the vote er, er, I'm sure that all of us would welcome any comments or suggestions or questions that any of you might wish to put to us here.
So, let's have er, anyone who wishes to indicate that?
I think in my experience, this is unique.
Erm, don't hold back,it's your opportunity.
Alright, well then er, with that expression, of what I hope to be confidence,, in erm, the management of our affairs over this last year, erm, let me put the resolution at, as on the paper before you, I won't read it again.
Resolution number one to the meeting, those in favour?
Er, those against?
That appears to be carried unanimously.
Thank you for that.
Now it would be invidious of me to er, speak at any rate at this juncture, er, on resolution two, that is the appointment of honorary officers, but I understand that Elizabeth Davies er, is ready to propose it.
We've just had a remarkable vote of confidence I think, in management but N C V O, like many organisations relies very heavily on the abilities, energy and commitment of its honorary officers.
We have been and are very well served in N V C O. Our President, Sir Kenneth , our vice-presidents, and in particular, the Chair, the Vice-Chairs, and Treasurer, give us a great deal of their time, and I do mean give, as they work for many hours on behalf of N C V O without payment.
I hate to think what effect it would have on our deficit if it included realistic costings of the value of their time.
And we really do appreciate it.
Our two Vice-Chairs, Barbara , and Kay  are well known to all of you.
Towers of strength and energy, whose experience and judgement is invaluable to us.
Our Treasurer, Jeffrey Foster, has the sort of job usually described as thankless.
Persuading others to accept the hard financial facts of life is not usually a very popular job, but he does it with great tact and skill, and under his guidance I do believe that our deficit is under control, and that it will be reduced.
We do thank him most sincerely for his work.
I am very glad that all three of these people are willing to stand for office again.
Alan Morgan, our Chair since nineteen eighty-six and active in the organisation for years before, is not standing this year as Chair, for a very happy reason which you all know about from the erm, literature on your seats.
He will be missed although the contribution he has made will remain with us in the present form of N C V O, to which he very greatly contributed.
I'm glad he's agreed to stand as a Vice-President.
A candidate for the first time for the Chair that Alan has left is Sir Jeffrey .
New to N C V O perhaps, but with a wealth of experience in government, industry and the voluntary sector.
He began his career originally as a journalist, working for the B B C and the Financial Times, before he moved into industry.
He has strong interests in education, and management training and much experience of negotiating with government, something that we all need in N C V O. For some years he's been a member of the Council for Voluntary Service Overseas.
I know that all his experience will be called upon in the new role he's ready to undertake on behalf of us all.
We very much appreciate his willingness to join us.
I have great pleasure in proposing the honorary officers for appointment as they are printed on your order paper.
Thank you and now Colin , er, is er, to second this resolution.
Hello, yes, right, thank you.
I can do no more than endorse the statement made by the proposer and would just like to formally second the proposal resolution number two.
Thank you.
Erm, does any member of the Council wish to make any comment on this resolution before I put it formally to the vote?
Very well, I will put it then to you, that er, resolution two as printed on your order paper, should be approved by the Council, those in favour?
And those against?
Well that's seems also to be carried unanimously.
And on behalf of all those who have received this support from you, I should like to say thank you.
Now there are two other things I want to er, say at this juncture.
Or rather two other people to speak of.
You will have read what I think to be a very reasoned and properly enthusiastic tribute to Alan by Peter  his predecessor in the Chair, in this number of N C V O News, which incidentally I think is er, er, er, a considerable step forward from the various er, experiments, and the like that we have er, conducted over the years.
Alan and I served er, together as er, deputy Chairs, or vice-Chairs or whatever the appropriate words are for several years er, and I erm, well I think I would adopt the words that he used about the experience that he has had in the Chair, to whit, that his companionship and his contribution to our affairs has been stimulating, enlightening and particularly enjoyable.
Erm, I'm very glad that his er, departure from the Chair does not signify any lessening in his commitment to er, our work and activities.
It is a big job, it doesn't just mean changing the colour of your stock, er, and it's difficult to think of erm, er, Alan wearing the purple so to say, but erm, I'm sure he, I went to his consecration in York about two months ago, it was a very moving and er, enjoyable occasion and he's erm, er, now entered upon that inheritance.
I can hardly forebear, I'm sorry for, if it's er, a bad pun, but er, I can hardly forbear to say that it may be that I, that diocese can do with what one might describe as a dash of the Robin Hood's, which I think Alan may er, bring to it.
So Alan you go with our warm thanks and our very best wishes for a future which I know will be as valuable to the church as it will lead to a gap in our ranks which it will be difficult to fill.
Now then erm, if anyone erm, can perhaps achieve that objective, I think it is your, our new Chairman, Jeffrey .
One of the things he, er, did, er, as was remarked erm, by er, Barbara , was erm, to erm, er, be a broadcaster and journalist, many years ago now Jeffrey.
Well I also was er, er, a producer then in the B B C and so he and I had some cheerful encounters at that time, since when he has obviously gone from strength to strength.
I need not bore you with er, a recital of his many accomplishments, I just would single out one additional one, and that is, his sterling work for the Royal Society of Arts, er, its shorter name, erm, of which he has pioneered really, the development of an activity described as industry matters.
Thus to bring to all our attention how much it matters for the encouragement of arts, commerce and trade which er, for manufacturers which is the full title of the Royal Society of Arts.
So we're very lucky indeed, I say without any hesitation whatever, that Jeffrey has been willing to take on this

Good afternoon, and welcome to On The Record.
Another seven people murdered in Northern Ireland, a dreadful end to a dreadful week, and yet on Friday there had been at least a little optimism in the air, John Major and Albert Reynolds getting together in Brussels for what were billed as substantive talks, where does all that go now?
I'll be talking to John Hume, the leader of the S D L P, according to Mr Major his talks with Gerry Addams are at the end of the road.
I'll also be talking to John MacGregor, about the privatization of British Rail, has he really given in to his rebels who want B R to be able to bid for the franchises, or is it all a clever conjuring trick?
Have Labours's modernizers run into the buffers?
I'll be talking to arch modernizer Harriet Harman, and John Cole takes a sideways look at the Chancellor's dilemma as he prepares his first budget.
But first to Northern Ireland.
It's difficult, impossible perhaps, for those of us who don't live their to fully understand the sheer horror of it.
On a crude arithmetical basis if the same proportion of murders were carried out on the mainland of Britain in relation to the population we'd have had a thousand dead in the past eight days.
Unthinkable, no government could allow it to continue and expect to survive.
So what is happening to find a political solution?
Well John Hume's meetings with Gerry Addams have been overshadowed by that meeting between the prime ministers of Great Britain and the Irish Republic, overshadowed and overtaken, according to Mr Major, I talked about that to John Hume a little earlier this morning, but I began by asking for his reaction to the latest murders.
Well just another appalling slaughter of very innocent people, and it really is quite incredible that the people who carried out these terrible murders said they were doing so as retaliation for similar slaughter of people in the Shankhill Road last week.
The people murdered last week were every bit as innocent as were the people in the Shankhill Road, and I would be certain that the families of the people in the Shankhill Road would be horrified that the murder of their loved ones would be used as an excuse as an excuse to do exactly the same to other innocent people.
You'll have known that pub, of course.
Oh aye, I know that pub well, it's just outside my constituency but it's in the district where it's in the North West, and we all know one another very well there.
I haven't heard the names yet, of the people who have lost their lives but I'd be I would be certain that I would know some of them personally.
Where do we go from here?
Well of course I've been saying for some time now, for some time, and I want to underline that, and I hope the government are listening  that we've had twenty thousand troops on our streets, we've twelve thousand armed policemen on our streets, we have the strictest security laws in Western Europe, and none of these things have solved our problem.
The number of people who have died on our streets is equivalent to a hundred thousand people dying in the streets of Britain, if that were happening, then the House of Commons would be packed to the doors everyday, until they got it sorted out.
If the Government keeps telling us in every statement they make that we're an integral part of the .
I think I'm making my point, I have been saying for some time now that given the fact that all that security hasn't produced the results, the logic of that is dialogue, and when I see the opportunity as I saw it, of dialogue, direct dialogue with Mr Addams that could lead to a total cessation of this violence, I felt it was my duty to do so.
That dialogue has lead me to the point of issuing a joint statement with Mr Addams.
Now remember I am the leader of a party that has been in the front line against his violence for twenty years, and have been at many risks, as have been members of my party, but when I say that that dialogue is the best hope they've seen for peace for twenty years.
And in tha in our statement we say, that we are talking about a process which involves both governments, all parties, and what we're talking about is agreement among the divided people to which all sections can give their loyalty.
The least I would expect would be an immediate invitation from the Prime Minister, come and see me, because if it was happening on the streets of any city in Britain and the MP stood up and said what I've said I think he would be in Downing Street within the night.
And you've not had that invitation?
No.
Are you awaiting for it?
Well I would expect that the Prime Minister would, I think this nonsense that is behind all this is that because I am talking to Gerry Adams, they don't want to be seen to be talking to me because it looks this fingerprint argument
Your hands are dirty .
I'm talking about saving human life  governments over the last twenty years, troops over the last twenty years, policemen over the last twenty years, laws over the last twenty years, and politicians, including myself, have all failed in all the efforts that we've made including condemnation of violence, everything, but I am now saying that this dialogue is the best hope I've seen or, surely I'm entitled to say to the Prime Minister, alright given that I have said that why don't you put me to the test?
But have you not already briefed Mr Major, have you not already briefed Downing Street about those talks, and given that you have, what else is there, what else can you offer Mr Major, that you haven't already offered?
Well, er, I think that both governments have said er in their, and both Prime Ministers, er and I'm glad they met, er that the 
That's Mr Reynolds, I assume .
Yes that they are beginning a process involving both governments and er naturally er I welcome that very much, because I think the attention of both governments would have to be concentrated on this terrible problem, and of course if they take the trouble to read the statement that Mr Addams and I issued that's precisely what we said, that the two governments should begin a process involving all parties.
So what else do you have to offer then?
I think that both governments are aware of the proposals that emerged from th my dialogue with Mr Addams, and the process that has emerged, that I have said, and he has said is substantial progress towards lasting peace.
I want the governments to act on it, and act quickly on it.
But act on what, do you see, this is what we don't understand ?
Sorry, I know you don't understand, and you're not going to understand on this program.
Why not?
Because er it's a that's that's just the way it has to be for the present, at the end of the 
But does the Government ?
Sorry.
At the end of the day the whole community has to know what this is all about, but let me stress, there is no threat in this process that is being proposed, to bring about a total cessation of violence, there is no threat to any section of our community, none what so ever.
Does the Government, does Mr Major 
know precisely what went on in your talks with Mr Addams, and does Mr Major approve of what you had agreed, or discussed with Mr Adams?
Well I have no evidence of any description of Mr Majors approval or disapproval
But does he know?
what he has said is that he, it's a matter for myself to talk to whoever I wish, and that he respects my judgement in these matters, er according to the joint statement issued Mr Reynolds briefed him on his discussions with me on that on that  
Right, he does know.
well, I er it it I am only reading what er their joint statement said.
And he has said Mr 
But I am available.
But Mr Major has said quite clearly that that process that dialogue between you and Gerry Adams has run it's course.
Yes, he has said that and I am saying, I am saying, as somebody who has been in the front line against this violence, and with due respect to Mr Major knows a little more about it than he does
So Mr Majors wrong?
I am saying Mr Major, as Prime Minister, if someone in my position is saying I believe, I believe, there is the best opportunity here for lasting peace, by which I mean a total cessation of violence, the least I expect is that you should listen to what I have to say.
So he, Mr Major, is wrong when he says he believes that that dialogue, that process that you began with Gerry Adams has run its course do you 
Well 
believe that there is further that can go and that it should be exploited by Mr Major or Mr Reynolds, or by Mr Major?
well, when I say that it's the best opportunity for peace I've seen in twenty years.
If er Mr Major is not going to look at why I say that then I hope that he, I assume from that that he has a better hope of peace an an 
But he's looked at it hasn't he?
I'm sorry, and I'm waiting to hear what it is.
But he's looked at it, because you have told Albert Reynolds 
Well, what, why?
Albert Reynolds has told the Prime Minister, Mr Major, Mr Major has taken on board, has has considered, presumably, what it is that you've done with Gerry Adams, and concluded that it can go no further.
Well i I'm not aware of how far he has taken anything on board, what I would expect as a Member of Parliament and the House of Commons, and as the leader of a party in the House of Commons, I would expect that he would want to hear what I would have to say face to face, and tell me face to face what's wrong with what I have said.
Given that he doesn't want to see you and your suspicion is that he doesn't want to see you because you have as it were the fingerprints of Gerry Adams on you now you're tainted because of your relationship with Gerry Adams, what do you now do?
Do you have more meetings with Gerry Adams, do you try and to push it forward unilaterally?
I am an elected representative of the people of Northern Ireland, three thousand three hundred of our people have been murdered, that's the equivalent of a hundred thousand people in Britain, it is the responsibility of every elected representative to do everything in their power, everything in their power, to stop that, The least responsibility that they have, the least they can do, is enter into dialogue directly with the people involved and I apologize to no-one for that, and if anybody is telling me that I'm tainted because I do that, you know, I don't know what sort of minds they've got, because I think it's our responsibility to do everything in our power to bring this violence to an end, and what's more, what I'm doing has massive support of ordinary people on both sections of our community because I have never in my twenty years experienced the nature of the support and the way that it's being expressed to me by people in the streets, by telephone, and in particular by 
You 
families of those who have lost loved ones, who don't want to see other families going through the suffering that they have gone through.
You say that, but aren't isn't it th the case that the loyalists, the Protestants in Northern Ireland are terrified of any kind of deal that might involve Gerry Adams because that would be as far as they are concerned the ultimate sell out, and hence there is the danger of growing sectarian violence because of fear?
Well in the first place, I have made clear throughout, and I have a record their of over twenty years that people can have a look at, but I made clear throughout, as has Mr Adams, that we are not engaged in secret deals, secret deals don't solve problems.
What we have said we are involved in a process which must involve both governments and all parties, whose objective is agreement among our divided people an agreement which all our traditions must give their allegiance and agreement, and an agreement which must express which which must respect our diversity, now I have kept repeating that statement since we made it and I asked anyone to tell me what they disagree with it, now the loyalist paramilitary some weeks ago said that if the I R A were to k their impression they've given all along is that they're just a reaction to the I R A and if the I R A were to stop they would cease immediately, I immediately put out a statement welcoming that statement by them, I also offered to talk directly to them, but they have refused er given the nature of their campaign, particularly at the moment, I begin to wonder do they want the I R A to stop?
Have they some other reason for their resistance but are able to use the I R A as their excuse?
Whatever Mr Major's motives may be for having concluded that your that the process is at an end that your involvement, effectively, with Gerry Adams is at an end, what about Mr Reynolds' motives?
What possible reason might he have for agreeing with Mr Major that the Hume Adams initiative is dead?
Well I have no evidence from either of them, you know, er that er they are slamming the door on my initiative, other than the statement that was issued which if you read it, there's very little in it that you can object to, or that I could object to, which commits them, the two governments to an initiative, and indeed that's what er the last statement that Mr Adams and I issued asked them to do, the only er they also in in their statements say that my actions have been both courageous and imaginative
But that th the 
er but that the that the they're not paying attention to what's coming out of it  
But you clearly don't believe that that statement, the the Reynolds Major statement goes far enough.
Well er n well oh f I'm not saying that er i I'm available.
John Hume .
That's what I'm saying.
John Hume.
Tomorrow the Transport Secretary John MacGregor reintroduces the bill to privatize British Rail to the House of Commons, it had a rough journey through the House of Lords and until late last week it looked set for a stormy passage through the Commons too, but then Mr MacGregor introduced a series of amendments that everyone assumes will satisfy the rebellious Tory MP s, but as Michael Gold reports, there are still obstacles for Mr MacGregor to surmount.
Train now approaching platform two is the twelve fifty three  service from Glasgow Central.
It's been a bumpy ride, but the bill to privatize British Rail is almost at the end of its long parliamentary journey  but the battle isn't over yet, earlier this week hundreds of protestors from a variety of backgrounds gave up a day and travelled from the North to carry their defiant message to Transport Secretary John MacGregor.
It was railway workers who were in the vanguard of the protest, worried about job losses and safety, but Middle England was also on the march, concerned that services might suffer, polls indicate that four out of five voters oppose the sell off.
It's ridiculous, I don't think they really realize what they're doing.
You cannot privatize British Rail, it cannot be done.
It's only a few people at this moment in this country, that does believe in railway privatization, and that is the Department of Transport.
Leave the railways with British Rail, and put the money in that they would spend on privatization to improve the service for all of us, and keep it as a national railway, please.
Why is the Government embarking on such an apparently unpopular privatization?
Some Tories think it's a sop to the right from a weakened premier, the Government insist that the sell off is the best way to attract investment from the private sector into the railways, but there are signs that the break up of B R isn't proving as attractive to outside investors as the government hoped.
Mayfair's Park Lane Hotel, art deco rendezvous for London's deal- makers.
Would you like coffee, sir ?
Coffee, sir?
Er white, please.
This week it was the venue for a gathering of bankers, managers, and academics, exploring the future of transport.
Few at this conference were a-quiver at the prospect of bidding for the Tilbury to Southend line.
Among the experts who were there was Professor Bill Bradshaw.
My name's Bradshaw.
Good morning.
The Professor was advisor to the Tory dominated Transport Committee, and he's convinced the sell off will be a turn off.
The private sector cannot invest in the circumstances set out in the bill, because they need very long franchises with control of all the means of production, the track, the trains, the stations, the total business.
That is not provided in the bill, the private sector will not invest, and our railways will go on getting more unreliable.
The business men and boffins here have made money moving people from A to B across the globe, but very few of the governments they've advised have ever tried to privatize their railways, and none have tried in quite the manner Mr MacGregor proposes.
One man who is used to spending millions helping finance transport projects is Frank Borgus, he's helped oversee privatizations in the U S but from his perspective the B R sell off doesn't look attractive.
What you need to do is to be able to provide a private sector a certain level of certainty, that the concession will be er granted long enough so that one can recover both your costs an=and certainly be able to to make a profit and so er to the extent that the franchises that are being considered are short natured, seven years, er that becomes rather disadvantageous and unattractive er concessions of twenty and thirty and forty years, and and really thirty thirty to forty year period er do make it in fact make it very attractive for private sector involvement.
That might seem to leave the Government in the dark, but they're confident they know where there going.
British Rail employees and managers will borrow cash, so the Government hopes, in order to buy profitable services, like the East Coast mainline from their employers.
Getting their hands on their own trains might seem attractive, but any manager tempted would be taking a big risk.
The prospects for management buy-outs are really very bleak, the reason for that is that the franchises which we're hearing about are likely to be very short, the franchisee will own no assets, no land, no rolling stock, nothing with which to go to the bank as security for loan.
At the end of the franchise period he will have nothing to sell, so I cannot see how people could go away and borrow the working capital with which to run a business.
The profitability of flagship lines like the Gatwick Express sustains the Government's belief there will be management buy-outs.
Few managers would think of embarking on such a course if they faced competition from B R itself, that's why the Government originally barred B R from bidding.
However, when the bill reached the upper house Lord Paignton amended it to let B R bid, for two reasons.
First because it er offers the Government quite a good reason for dropping the bill altogether, er a er and bowing to parliamentary opinion in doing so that's not a shameful thing to do, er if it had been able to do that on the other hand it would have the benefit of in=incorporating in its own proposals a measure of continuity and experience which are no there already.
The Lord's vote had reverberations along the corridor at Westminster, a number of MP s hitherto quietly concerned about privatization now went public, they thought the Lords vote would take the sting out of the sell off because B R would win most of the bids, ministers vowed to defy the rebels, but just before the bill left the Lords the Government seemed to cave in.
Your Lordships will be aware that the Government has been giving careful consideration to the issue of whether B R should be a franchisee in the light of the noble lord Lord Paignton's amendment, agreed at committee stage.
Clearly my right honourable friend the secretary of state will want to hear the views of another place, but I can say that he will not be recommending that the amendment should be overturned.
Even as Lord Caithness seemed to buckle the Government were tabling their own amendments to fix the odds against B R bids a finesse, but the rebels bought it.
I want to see the er possibility of British Rail being able to say, well you know we could improve our act, we could do things differently, and er we we wou we have experience of running a railway, and therefore, you know, please let us bid.
That's why I thought it was wrong that er British Rail should not be allowed to bid, and I think that the Government's compromise is a very sensible one.
It was passengers who were supposed to benefit from Lord Paignton's amendment, the rebels think they've safeguarded the spirit of that vote, but experts disagree.
The amendment the Government has put forward does not hold out much real hope for B R managers about remaining in the medium or long term in charge of viable business, to that extent the amendment does not carry out what I believe was the intention of Lord Paignton in in moving the amendment.
So Mr MacGregor's hard work may yet come to grief, even if he sorts that problem out there's another obstacle to privatization running smoothly, many on the railways think the private sector will need a generous subsidy before they'd be interested, if their not attracted the state will have to spend more to make the new structure work, a lot more.
On The Record's obtained a paper prepared by a committee including senior civil servants and the Treasury and Transport Department, called the Restructuring Working Group, the report forecasts an increase in the amount of taxpayer's money subsidizing the railways, this year it will be eight hundred and fifty million pounds, after privatization, the paper says, the central government grant requirement would total some two billion pounds in nineteen ninety four ninety five.
By owning the track and leasing the trains the Government can recoup some money, but will that calm Tories who see millions spent on privatization while other budgets are cut.
Mr MacGregor's avoided one collision with his back benchers, but when they realize the bills cost and consider how B R 's been dealt with the question is, will they think again?
Well, will they, Mr MacGregor?
Have you, or have you not, please, accepted the Paignton amendment?
Well firstly the bill didn't have that rough a passage in the House of Lords, because there are only two basic amendments, er that we're dealing with in the House of Commons that matter, and one of them is the one you've just mentioned, the answer to it is this, er I've had a lot of criticisms of giving B R the untrammelled right to bid, er right from the outset their criticisms to do with the danger that you wouldn't get competition for the franchises the private sector would be afraid, and incidentally this is not a sell off it's it's a way of getting the private sector into British Rail with all the advantages that brings, they would be afraid that they would face subsidized and unfair competition, above all, perhaps, British Rail ge=management would feel if they were bidding against their employer that would be a real discouragement to bid, and we've a lot of evidence er that they feel that and that there are many who do wish to bid in management/employee buy outs, so what we've done in the amendment is we've preserved the right for British Rail to bid, but we've dealt with those criticisms and worries which have come from a lot of quarters not least from within British Rail itself.
So, have you accepted the Paignton amendment?
I have accepted part of it, and I've amended it to ensure that we can overcome the criticisms er that would have been involved if we'd left it er as it was, er and above all, and I think this is the most important thing, we've made sure that it will work, er and that it will meet our objectives of getting competition into the franchises, if we'd just ended up with one great monolithic British Rail, after all each franchise remember will be coming gradually, they won't be doing them all at once, there will be one next year, several the year after, and so on , if British Rail had been able to go around and pick them off, and say, Well we can run this now in the future much better than we've done it in the past, so we'll bid, and we'll bid a low bid, that really wouldn't have been getting fair and proper competition into the system, so what i what I've done is ensured, as I've done all the way through in this bill in accepting amendments, that we make sure we achieve our objectives, and that above all it's workable, the, as it was it wouldn't as it was the Paignton amendment wouldn't have been workable, because there would have been total chaos and confusion 
Alright but 
within British Rail itself.
The reality is that you've said to British Rail, you can bid for those franchises that nobody else wants
The
which is the situation anyway, because if people if nobody had bid British Rail would would have continued to 
Well, well 
run them anyway.
of course that is a point that we've made all the way through, it's not if nobody would bid, it's if the franchising director was not satisfied with the quality or the long term viability of the bids he'd received
Yes
or didn't think they were  
Comes down to the same thing in the end.
Or they weren't, or, you see the other important point here is that British Rail will be restructuring all the twenty five potential passenger franchises, they're starting on this now
They've just finished one restructuring .
they will then they will , they've just started actually
But they've finished one .
No, well the key point is the key point is that they they have to have a period during which they have a track record of running those separate businesses, so that bidders will know the basis on which their bidding, now if  if the franchising director, it's entirely his decision, decides that er he's not getting competitive enough bids or good enough bids, then yes British Rail would carry on, and this was clear right from the outset, would carry on running that particular
Right, so you actually 
franchise, so the difference the difference now, is that they will be able er in some, certain circumstances to come in and bid directly at the outset.
But only if the franchise director decides that there is not a viable bid from the private sector or from B R management.
Only if he feels that a private sector or B R management would be er frightened off bidding, and he knew that there were viable bids in play 
Yes, precisely.
and if he feels it would not 
But 
lead to proper competition, that's correct .
So let so nothing in reality has changed, has it?
Oh I'm quite sure there will be situations in which er British Rail will bid, and will, well it's up to the franchising director, but is likely to get the franchise, there will be situations.
But then even if they do that and even if they get the franchise, they're not going to be able to say, we can now hold on to it for five, or seven, years, however long the franchise is going to be, because if another bidder comes along in the meantime and says, we rather like this ourselves, they'll be thrown off.
No, if they bid for the franchise, then, and get it, obviously that franchise runs for the period, and by the way, a lot of the criticisms in the film, I think were based on a misunderstanding that all the franchises are going to be short, they're not, those where there's a substantial investment going in can be quite a bit longer
Well well how long, how long ?
Oh ou we haven't, it would depend on the market place, on the reaction .
But but I mean are we talking about really 
We could be talking of ten years and beyond, er beyond ten years .
What, twenty years?
I doubt it, we no we wouldn't wish to go to, I don't think, to twenty years, er but it would depend on the level 
Tha tha that's interesting 
it will it will depend on the level of investment that the bidder is prepared to put in we're being very flexible, responding to the market forces 
So that it might be then 
But 
fifteen years, let's say where we've 
Yes.
been talking until now about seven years, we might be talking about fifteen years.
Well some people have been talking about five to seven years, I've been saying all the way through that we're very flexible on this, and clearly if erm a bidder whether it's a management buy out with other people in the bid, others in the consortium, or an outright bid from a private sector consortium er if if they get the franchise and make clear that that's on the basis that they're going to put a lot of money into the capital investment, then clearly they will want a longer period and we have made that clear .
Well I may have missed something you've said, but I haven't heard you say fifteen years before .
I've said quite often that ga it could be 
I mean 
flexible to a certainly to ten, and in the right circumstances beyond that.
So I can take it as as gospel this morning that some of these franchises will be fifteen years, how many might be fifteen years, might they all be fifteen years ?
If, if, if, they are prepared  if they're prepared to put sufficient funding in er into the capital investment side.
So if they all come along with lots and lots of money they'll all have fifteen years.
Well now you see, I don't think they'll do that, because another, another, another,
I'm sure they won't from what we've been told .
another mistake in the film was to suggest that in a a short franchise, say of seven years they would need a great deal of working capital, but they won't need a great deal of working capital or or share capital, they will actually be running a business where they get subsidy, because if er they're involving socially necessary lines, like commuter lines, or or rural lines, then we've made it very clear er that the taxpayers subsidy will continue, because these are loss making businesses, they will be bid they will bid for subsidy, and they will continue to get that subsidy, so they will have the flow of whatever income they can increase, in the passenger franchise, plus the subsidy, plus, and this is a very important point in what we're doing in the restructuring of British Rail, you see, nobody up till now has said that British Rail is perfect, everyone acknowledges that there are big improvements to be made, the way we're structuring it will get those improvements because the smaller franchises, not the great big monolithic nationalized industry, the smaller units,ha will be able to identify much more clearly where they can make the savings and where they can increase the revenue .
But they won't be able to deal with their main sources of production, as er Professor Bradshaw said there, they're going to have absolutely you've got no control over the track on on which they operate, and they ar going to have to hire their carriages from and rolling stock from a separate leasing company, so their room for manoeuvre is limited to say the least .
That's, that's, that's in a very small, er short franchise which is very similar to operators in other
What so they  
passeng in in other in other transport areas
So that if it's a fifteen-year 
but you see it, I me 
franchise, they may actually get, I'm I'm 
They 
I'm very puzzled by this now so I ask for clarification, if it's a long franchise then, if it's a fifteen year franchise, are you saying that the franchisee will have control over the track?
And over the rolling stock?
They may, let me just explain the track then, in those situations they may well be investing in the depots, maintenance and so on, but let me just 
And the track?
let me just go beyond
So but but just answer that bit first, so I'm clear 
not, not, not on the track as not on 
Right so, so 
the track as such, can I just explain the position on the 
Alright.
track, because it it, no other transport business er has er does has to have a business, which op owns both the track it's operating on and the operating er facilities themselves, so the we're not doing anything new here, what we are actually doing, and incidentally the German government and other governments are going down the same route now because it's not true to say that others aren't privatizing, what we're doing is saying that we are having a separate track authority, and there are a variety of reasons for that, er but the an and that means actually less investment by the franchisee himself, but he will have control over the th the track operations, because he will have a contract, with Rail Track, to deliver certain services, and if Rail Track doesn't deliver them then he's able to claim penalties so 
But he 
he will have the same relationship as so many other companies have er in relationship to other services they need to operate their business.
Let's just consider the political problem though you have still got a problem selling it to a lot of MP s, if they're listening to this interview and they are concluding, maybe rightly, maybe wrongly, that actually things aren't changing very much, and they may think they've been sold a pup with these amendments, indeed I hear that some of them have had to be bought off, well, is it true that one of them was sent off to Peru on an on an election er supervision mission in order that he might not be around when the bill came up .
He's, he's actually going to be there to to vote for the bill  vote for the amendment 
But was he, he was sent off to Peru as a sweetener, was he ?
well there are, no, no, because he's going to be there to vote, but on, on 
Yes  
Can I deal with your main point, er and in's very important, er, to understand this, er, the vast majority of the parliamentary party supports strongly what we're doing, because they believe it will improve passenger services, it will deal with getting freight on, more freight on to rail, now they they backed it throughout the party conference backed it almost unanimously
Alright,n 
what we're dealing with is a small group of MP s who thought there were some advantages in the Paignton amendment I've discussed it very thoroughly with them for some time, and they agree that there were real difficulties about the Paignton amendment which I've now addressed
Okay, let me talk about money then, do 
so there are an awful lot of people, let me say, there is th it is a complete falsehood to suggest that the parliamentary party isn't behind the bill
Okay, money 
we had a meeting earlier this week were I got huge support, indeed some were urging me not to give way at all on the Paignton amendment.
Money.
Two billion pounds, it's going to cost you, going to cost us, the taxpayers .
I, that, there have been endless position papers in the department and I haven't actually seen that one
Well, here it is.
the I don't  
You haven't seen it?
It's, it's, it's, it's a committee that you set up, the Restructuring Working Group that that your department set up .
But they do loads of that way way down in preparing all these things, and loads and loads of different views expressed at different times, I deal with actually the recommendations er as we get to the point of decision, but on the on the investment point
Well is it true, or is it not true that it is going to cost an extra tw , total, I'm sorry, not an extra, total of two billion pounds.
No I don't recognize that figure although it it er it what matters, is that we continue 
Well that's not quite the same as saying it isn't true, if I can just push you on that a little bit, you 
Well 
say you don't recognize it, is it true?
Now that I know that 
For, for ninety four, ninety five 
and I've told you where it's come from, can you say that is too much
It is not necessary, to have it on that scale er in nineteen ninety four ninety five 
That's not the same as saying it isn't true is it?
it isn't necessary, well it is the same as saying it isn't true, it isn't necessary er because this will be built up over a period and it will be for er the Government in all the normal ways in the public expenditure round to decide how much goes into the passenger franchises and through that therefore into the Briti the Rail Track investment.
Either way it's going to be an awful 
But 
lot more than eight 
But 
hundred and fifty million pounds, isn't it ?
But can I just make the point that we have been investing a great deal in British Rail, and the idea that er all over the piece we're talking about non-modernized railways simply not true.
Eight hundred million on the East Coast main line, four hundred million for rolling stock announced this week, four hundred million in new contracts, there's a lot of money going in right now .
The ex the extra cost of privatization is going to be one heck of a lot more than than without any privatization, in that year we're talking about immediately, is it not ?
No it's certainly not, in nineteen ninety four ninety five, certainly not .
Not going to be more than eight hundred and fifty?
Because were on not going to be of the scale that you were suggesting 
Well 
for the very simple reason that we will at most have one franchise in er nineteen ninety four, ninety five
Well
and so there will only be one franchise, this will build up gradually.
Well let me quote to you what your own document says, on 
I, I 
the best view we have at the moment transfer of service from B R to franchises is likely to increase the subsidy requirement for the service in question a large upward leap in nineteen ninety four ninety five, now this is your own document and attending these on er on 
I, I 
on this restructuring group it's British Rail, it's the Treasury, it's the Department of Transport, it's the franchise director.
It is that is a paper from somebody, I know not who, but can I just explain, if we're having one franchise passenger service next year, which is pretty well all you can do because you do need to have that record, track record, the business operating as a separate business before bidders can bid, if we're having one next year, to suggest as I think the quote was, that the that would cost about one point two billion pounds is ridiculous, it's ridiculous, a single, a single,
What your group's quote, not mine, well must tell them then, will you go in tomorrow morning and say redo this working paper?
a single passenger service costing that amount of money, absolutely not.
Well where did they suck it from then, I mean I 
Don't ask me.
know it's it's it's not something that I've put together.
But it isn't actually the real point, the real point is that we will continue, well it 
Oh it's a very important point, isn't it, if it's going to cost a great deal more to push privatization through when you've got a fifty billion overspend anyway, I'd have thought people who were worried about V A T on fuel would say that is a very significant point.
But it isn't because I've just said to you several times that one point two billion for a single franchise is absolutely ridiculous .
Well, give me a figure then.
It will be, it will depend on the bidding but it 
Alright.
for and we will continue the subsidies to the passenger service
Right.
individual franchises will vary, depending on how successful they are and what the bids are
Final very  
but it won't be that scale.
Final very quick question, reports in the paper this morning that Chunnel, the the channel tunnel, the high speed link, and the tunnel itself are going to be delayed because the Treasury basically saying, we've run out of money, you can't do it, is that true?
Delayed until two thousand and five, maybe.
The point about two thousand and five is complete speculation.
So is the main report true?only got a few seconds, I'm sorry .
Let me tell let me tell you exactly Jubilee line is going ahead, er very large sums of money in the next three years 
Yes, lets talk about talk about channel tunnel high 
We 
speed link.
The Cross-Rail and channel tunnel high speed link are at nothing like the state of preparedness of Jubilee Line, that's going ahead now after a lot of work, er th it it will not be the case er it that you can do either of those very quickly, Cross-Rail's only just started going through the House of Commons .
So there is going to be a delay.
So, we can't tell what the final deadline date will be because there are so many pro processes, to go through.
John MacGregor, thank you very much indeed.
Yesterday the Labour coordinating committee met for its annual get together, now this is the body that has set itself the task of modernizing the Labour Party, a difficult task at the best of times, made more difficult now because there is a growing shortage of volunteers for the cause, they can't even raise enough members to fill their own executive.
Earlier this morning I suggested to arch modernizer Harriet Harman that she and her reforming colleagues had run into the buffers.
Absolutely not, I think there's a strong sense in the Party that moving forward with our traditional values, that what we have to do is to apply those traditional values to a very changed world, things are very different now from when the Labour Party was formed, or even from when the Labour Party was last in government, so that we keep our sense of values, they are what grounds us, but what makes us an effective government in the future is the fact that we are moving forward with the times, and the increasing representation of women is one of the things which is about moving us forward, and moving with the times.
Talk about the increasing representation of women, there were meant to be more women in the shadow cabinet with the elections for the shadow cabinet produced a disaster for women didn't it?
They were abs 
a disaster for you.
They were absolutely not a disaster for women, obviously I would have preferred to stay on the shadow cabinet, but we have three women in the shadow cabinet, and we have a number of women in senior positions outside the shadow cabinet .
You'd like to have more.
Well the trend though over all is absolutely clear, that the Labour Party is committed to increasing women's representation and is absolutely on that path, we've more Labour women MP s and increasing numbers of women in the shadow cabinet it's only in the end of the nineteen eighties, as recently as then, that we had no women in the shadow cabinet, now everybody agrees that it would look quite wrong not to have women in the shadow cabinet, we've got a woman deputy leader, three women in the shadow cabinet, and therefore we're definitely moving forward.
You say the Labour Party is agreed that there should be more women in the shadow cabinet, but which is this Labour Party then, the parliamentary Labour Party certainly isn't, there was a conspiracy to keep women out.
I don't think there was a conspiracy to keep 
Well Anne Clywd does.
Well I don't 
Lots of other people do.
No, I think that we would have liked to have seen more women, I would have liked to have stayed on the Shadow Cabinet, and I would have liked to have seen more women in the Shadow Cabinet, but to say it's a disaster, and somehow we've moved away from the path we've set ourself is simply not the case.
Alright, let me substitute setback, for disaster then, how about that?
Well I think it's it's a hiccup, nothing more, but I think the trend is clearly established, and it's very much agreed, it's recognized in the Labour Party, that the world outside has changed, women are now half the workforce, women are now half the college and university graduates, women's work now represents forty percent of our G D P, so we have to increase women's representation to recognize the world has changed.
Why isn't that message getting across to the P L P then?
Or to the er to the gentlemen in the P L P?
Well I think that message is getting across to the P L P and we've seen more women coming into the House of Commons, sitting on the Labour benches at the last general election, but there also is a sense that the progress, although it's being made, needs to be speeded up, because when you have profound social changes outside the House of Commons, with a change in women's role in society, a change in women's role in the Labour force, and a change in women's role in the family as well, you can't allow your parliament to lag behind.
So bearing all that in mind then, you sent exactly the wrong signal, didn't you with the elections to the Shadow Cabinet?
Well I think that it is possible that as a result of the reporting of the Shadow Cabinet elections, that the sense was out in the public that somehow this was a setback for women, and that Labour 
It was, wasn't it?
no, because the point is that Labour has not changed it's course, which is recognizing that at the heart of it's policies we have to show that we know the world has changed, and we've got a message to women, which is that we know that you are essential in your role in the family, but we know you're also essential in the economy,
But, but 
and as bread winners for your family, and the way we do that is making sure that we have a parliamentary Labour Party of men and women, and that we're a party of men and women at all levels, and all 
But it's what 
and all Labour MP s would agree with that.
But it's what, well would they?
I mean it's one thing 
Yes, I think they would.
to have a course, but if the crew on that particular ship mutinies, as they did during the last er Shadow Cabinet, then you're in trouble, aren't you?
I mean look,for forgetting the women, but just look look at who else did well in those elections and who did less well, you had the modernizers doing less well, the Tony Blairs and the Gordon Browns, and you had the traditionalists, or the perceived traditionalists if you prefer, er the John Prescotts, for instance, and the Frank Dobsons doing extremely well.
Well I think it's not helpful to look at it with such stark divisions, I think everybody's clear 
But those are the realities.
No they're not the realities, because what we're saying is that we have to modernize the policies of the Labour Party, but the policies are absolutely based in our traditional concerns, I mean, let me give you an example, when Beveridge was talking about unemployment, and the life long need for people to work, he was talking about a male workforce, where it was a man supported by a non-working wife, now we still have at the absolute heart of our concerns in the Labour Party peoples need to work, but we're now talking about a situation, where women are sharing with their husbands the role of bed breadwinner, and in many families the woman is the sole breadwinner, and therefore our policies about employment and the economy recognize that the world has changed, our principles are the same, but the world to which we're applying it is very different, and, again, on that you see there would be no distinction between the so-called traditionalists and the so-called modernizers.
Well then what explains the er the rise and rise of the so-called traditionalists and the falling back of the so-called modernizers.
Well I just think it's not helpful to look at it in those terms, you don't actually, if you pick 
Well it  it may not be helpful, but it is the reality, isn't it?
Well no it isn't, no, no .
You can't close your eyes and say, it isn't there, if I don't look it'll go away.
No it's not, because it simply attaches labels to the people and doesn't understand what's going on,
Ah, but 
and 
the real politics of it is that those labels are attached, and you know that as well as I do.
No, what we have to look at is not the labels which are attached to each individuals, but say do we have 
Mhm.
a good team of people in the Shadow Cabinet, do we have an excellent team i people in the parliamentary Labour Party, do we know where we've come from, and do no we know where we're going, and we do .
Right, now will let m l Let me ask you where you are going then as far as the Party's own constitution is concerned, we saw a development, a significant development that I no doubt you would say at the Labour Party conference er er down in Brighton, but not withstanding O M O B the trade unions still have one third of the votes in the selection of the leader of the party, seventy percent say on policy matters at conference, there is still a trade union block vote.
That isn't a modern party, is it?
Well it certainly is, and we think that we've had an examin of our co , examination of the constitution, we've made a number of changes, but the task for Labour now is to press on with the issues of looking at our policies, and making sure that our economic policy and our social policy a actually meets the changes that are out their in the world .
So that's it, that's, so that's it then for the modernization of the Party's constitution, we we what happened at Brighton was the end of the process was it?
What we've got now is what we're going to have in another ten years time?
Well I think people think that a certain amount of time and attention has to be devoted to the Party's constitution, and there are two things that arose out of the conference in Brighton.
One member, one vote, for the selection of Labour members of parliament, but also increasing the representation of women, now people want to move on from that, they want a 
In what direction?
well, they want us to move on to developing the policies which have addressed the changed world .
Ah, so that's it for the Party, though is it?
Well 
That, that the change to the constitution has ch that's it, all done.
Well I think people are settled on the changes that have been made, and want to move on, and I don't think 
Right, so the answer to my question, of I may just th th clarify this, the answer to my question is, yes that is it now, we have finished with the modernizing of the Party itself, lets forget about policies for one moment, we'll come back to that, but we have finished with the modernizing of the Party.
I think that people don't want to see any more constitutional changes, but there are many more changes in the culture, in the way the Party operates at local, regional, and national level, which we will be addressing, but what we're not going to have is more constitutional changes, because people feel that we've made changes, we have moved the Party forward, we're clear the direction we're going in, and now the Party at all levels wants to address itself not only to building our membership, but also to showing how the policies we've got meet the changed world outside.
So it's okay in a modern Labour Party for the trades unions to have what is effectively still a block vote?
Well, certainly people are satisfied with where we've got to and want to draw a line underneath it and move on from there, and I think the prospect of going back to the constitution er issues, and they m once again being a key focus, I don't think anyone in the Party, or outside the Party, sees the Labour Party wanting to devote itself to that at this time .
Alright, policies then, the economy.
Erm Gordon Brown is giving in, is he not to pressure from the traditionalists, when it comes to soaking the rich, or soaking the middle class, he's now saying, well maybe there will be a bit of soaking the rich, or soaking the middle class, whereas he wanted to say, and you wanted him to say, no we're not going to do that, we moved away from that.
No, what we're saying is two things, firstly that we are not in favour of taxation for taxation's sake
Well no party is.
it's not a reflex action that the Labour Party somehow engages in, but there are things that we need to rave raise revenue for, such as investment in the economy, like our social policies, and that the way that we will raise revenue is that we we will have a fair taxation system, that is very straightforward, and agreed by the Party, unlike the Conservatives who firstly don't recognize there is any purpose in investment in the economy, public investment, or investment in social policies they don't agree with, and secondly, when they do have to raise money they do it in the unfairest possible way, penalizing most those who can least 
Let 
afford it.
Let me just suggest to you that you are sending all the wrong signals on women, on Party constitution, on economic matters, on policy matters, the modernizers have lost the impetus, they're sending the wrong signals.
The Party is sending the wrong signals.
I think it's absolutely not the case to say that we're sending the wrong signals, I think there's a recognition in the country that the economy has been mismanaged, and the price that's being exacted by people is too high, high levels of unemployment, low levels of growth, and social services undermined, and people recognize that Labour is setting out a new way forward.
Harriet Harman.
And now John Cole on the options facing the Chancellor in his first budget, one month from now.
This year's battle of the budget is generating more anguish than any for years, John Major's cabinet now realize what a parliamentary mess December might turn into with week-long debates on both the Queen's speech and the budget to pack in, and worse to come in the spring, a budget combining taxes with public spending seemed a good idea at the time Norman Lamont announced it, but with November the thirtieth just a month away the political down-side is appearing, of course with a fifty billion pound deficit in the Government's accounts this years spending round would have been hard pounding anyhow, but the usual noisy haggle over the available cash among departments is now amplified by posses of Tory backbenchers trying to head off this or that tax increase, and there's an incentive to keep that up right through the finance bill after Christmas, since most new taxes would not come in until April.
A phrase from the Conservative's manifesto last year, we are the only party that understands the need for low taxation, has now returned to haunt them, for an MP in a marginal constituency this evokes the electoral ghost of George Bush, so he firmly rules out increases in income tax, but wouldn't mind putting V A T on newspapers and books.
But would it be within the spirit of the manifesto to murmur, read my lips, no more direct taxes?
Really, he says, people don't notice V A T so much, others believe income tax will have to take some of the strain, but not by putting up the rates, that would be too blatant.
The best bet is that the Chancellor will confine higher allowances against tax to the lowest grade, thus asking the better off to pay a bit more.
On the spending side, with the total fixed, the game this year is robbing Peter to pay Paul, or rather, to pay Malcolm.
Defence Secretary Rifkind is reported to be grateful for support from the fourteen military minded Conservatives whose confidential letter to the Prime Minister was somehow left lying on a copying machine for a Labour researcher to find, but he is irritated by the leak, an insider murmurs that Malcolm's notching up black marks for the future.
Peter Lilley as a right winger has to combine his reputation as a zealous cutter of the state sector with a departmental budget that eats up to forty percent of the hole, one MP groans, rather inconsequentially, a weeks social security payments would buy a warship, even Kenneth Clark and Michael Portillo, sharpening their axes have to admit that Lilley did not exactly invent unemployment personally, but the burgeoning budget for invalidity benefit, together with much anecdotal evidence, suggest that somebody in Whitehall, well before his time, decided to cut the unemployment figures artificially by allowing, even encouraging people with little hope of jobs to remember that troublesome pain in their backs, and in the process get better benefits.
But cutting this benefit will throw up hard cases, what worries a Tory elder is the way younger MP s approach the decision whether to support the Government on a pick and mix principle, he says, they no longer see the need to take the rough with smooth, to vote for the things they detest as well as those they like.
According to one loyalist thirties thirty or so of his colleagues think it's more fun to vote against the Government, a smaller number go further, they think a spell in opposition might enhance their own careers.
But a member of the cynical tendency jeers that after all this brouhaha, a Prime Minister who's obsessed with political safety, will only allow minor pain, though back benchers will be encouraged to squeal so as to impress the markets.
But what, he demands, about the panic when interest rates go up to fund the deficit, and the City begins to think that Labour will win.
A former senior minister who has been through many spending rounds says we take them all much too seriously, they are merely a mating ritual, he says, adding, and a barren one at that, no offspring.
Well you can tell that to the Treasury, or to the Marines.
John Cole.
That's it for this week, until next week at the same time, good afternoon.

This is oral history project tape  number two  of Mr Jack   of .
My name is Joyce .
The date is the twenty second of April, nineteen eighty seven.
This is interview number one.
Of horse racing at Newmarket.
That's a good game.
What else did you learn on the stud farm?
Well  did you go to stud when you, when you down at Newbury?
Where was, what was you doing down there?
I was near the Red House Stud.
Yeah.
Well it's 
Mm.
good game innit?
Did you find it interesting?
Oh yes.
Yeah, I watched the breeding and
Where??
Yes.
Yes.
. It was the finest thing in the world.
Mm mm.
It  the method you used in those days  did tha did they change as the years went on or, or
No.
did your
There were same methods.
Mm mm.
Same methods.
And I don't you, where was you?
At Bigham's Stud?
The Red House.
What?
The Red House  Stud.
Oh!
Where was that?
Newbury.
Farther along weren't it?
Up the 
Mm mm.
Win up the Winchester Road.
On the way into Highclear?
But up a bit.
No.
That's the A thirty four  going down to Southampton.
Erm  you're thinking of the Highclear Stud aren't you?
Near 
Yeah.
the Canarvons.
No, this one erm  was sort of just  
And going out to where
going out towards Wiltshire way.
Yes.
That's right.
And Marlborough.
Oh yes.
Well 
Mm.
Yeah.
Oh yes, it's erm  very, very, very, very interesting.
So what else did you  do?
What?
What else did you do?
That's all, that's all I could do wa mind you, I went  when the war finished  when the war finished and that  don't forget, and Reg , when he packed up first, I went to my stud groom and made your beating.
When Vales of Clwyd stood there.
I had him up there.
And another horse called Dormant up  up, up the phantom stud.
I had to be stud groom.
Then went off from stud groom, from there I went to be head lad with Sammy .
Aha.
He wanted head men so I went back and was head lad for him.
So when you were stud groom
Yeah.
what  were your duties?
Duties?
Phworgh!
Bloody always on weren't you?
Mm?
Your duties were always on weren't you?
When you're stud groom you're always on.
You're never off.
As soon as the bell goes you're in trouble int you?
I must say  yo yo you never, unless you've got a good second man  er especially foaling time yo my son-in-law don't leave the place.
Not foaling time.
Never leaves the place.
Er  he wo he don't, he er, he  all responsibility on his shoulders
Mm.
you see.
Yeah.
Well they get thirty pound for sitting up you know, now.
Thirty pound 
Do they?
at Newmarket!
What, a night?
To sit up at nights, yeah.
Yeah.
What did you get in your day?
Half a crown.
That's what we got.
What's that, for each night 
Well 
or for the week?
for the whole week you know.
That's all I had, that's all I had to pay my men.
Half a crown.
That's what we got.
And did they have rota for sitting up?
And you, and we was, watching you'd come out and look.
Used to have all kinds, you know  o on the team.
Mm.
I used to like the moonlight nights myself.
Because it was  you could always learn something on a moonlight night.
We wasn't allowed on the road.
There was a gate made for every paddock.
All, all where them boxes are built on Hamilton Road now, that was all our place that was.
We give the lease up.
That was all Perry  's.
Glenburgh, Biado  don't forget.
Ellepo.
Animals I could na name.
Good horses they bred down on that road you know.
Yeah.
This is what road did you say?
Bred, bred down Hamilton Road.
Hamilton Road.
Perry  's.
That's where I was.
I learnt something  while that war was on.
I learnt, a, a, a, a, a good stud groom, a man that knew his job, I learnt mine from.
Yeah.
Brurgh, urgh!
Money for old rope.
Well you, you learnt about the technique with the mares  when you were trying to wean them didn't you?
Ah?
You learnt about the weaning techniques.
The what?
Weaning.
Weaners.
Ah!
Weaning.
The weaning as a  the game would be , weaning, you know.
Some people leave it late, you know.
They even get big foals you know.
Er er, well  I tell you interest of a stud is  to, to know one another and to wanna know your stud grooms where you send your mares.
See, I used to, I never took a mare away wi with me  in foal, to foal down at fo away, you know, to be coming away  without I had a  to a foal's head collar.
Well, that head collar represented that stud groom.
When that foal was born we did put he head collar on it, you see.
Well, er, stud groom we used to pay them, pay one another you see.
If you didn't do that they wouldn't do it for you, they wouldn't pull them for you, wouldn't do anything.
Wouldn't pull them?
Pull them, no.
What d'ya mean, pull them?
Well,th the first time you lead a foal, get up, put a head collar on and foal them.
Put the rook on it.
They rear and, fight 
Yeah.
at you, you know.
Er, er, we used to do it out in the muck yard.
Get them in the muck yard and th you see, when they used to do that they used to fall over, you know, they couldn't hurt theirselves.
See they used to hurt their neck.
Put it through a ring, you know.
Had 
And 
them
and pull.
let them pull a cow collar,wi it was what they call cow collar  learn, the way to learn them.
And then lead them with this  to come with.
Most studs, you had to lead your foal and lead your mare.
See?
That's how you're taught.
So you got a, er, your mare in one hand and your foal in the other, int ya?
Lady James , you had to come over a water bridge  at er, her stud.
Mare and foal over a water bridge.
Out of one paddock into another.
Did that create problems?
Yeah.
Yeah well they, they was used to it.
Lady Road Mentmore, just the same.
Look at the, look at the miles you had to walk at !
Mentwater?
Mentmore Stud.
Lord  's.
It's all sold now innit?
Mentmore.
M E N 
M E N T M O R E .
Mentmore.
Yeah.
There's not a stud there, they've built on it.
Haven't they?
Lord  's.
Lord ro Lady  's just died and sold her place here.
Did you read it?
Left hundred and twenty thousand to the  to the sh her butler and his wife.
What do you think of that?
Hundred and twenty thousand, and the house.
And left it to the butler?
Mm.
He'd been with him years.
I can remember 
Yeah.
re I can go back years when I went there.
Years.
Mhm.
What did you do there?
Well when I was taking mares down into 
Yeah.
they had the stallions down there then you see, they had stallions at the stud.
Which we were there often.
And where did the studs stand?
Mentmore, near Linslade.
On the way out to Tring.
Mm.
On the way out to Tring.
Mm.
It's la you go, we used to go  Baldock   Hook er er  Shelford  Shelford to erm  mm.
Luton Road, off, just forget the name of some places.
Well you're heading up the A one aren't you?
I got so used, we used to go the same way all the time.
So you were travelling with the stallions
Oh yeah.
or the mares?
No, the mares.
With the mares.
The mares 
Oh so 
travel with the mares, see.
I travelled all  so  all this, Jim  that's alive now I done that for two years.
Travelled all his mares.
Yeah.
I took six to Ireland one year.
And was it six I took, or four?
Four.
Four was it?
And er, I never had to leave them.
And the valuation was two hundred and fifty thousand.
The valuation of them.
And you had to stay with them  all the while?
Sheldrake Burrows  that was  Stud.
.Whe when you went and you didn't have to leave them, you know.
You was insured not to leave yo wha you  I was in charge of them horses, you mustn't leave them.
So, could you, could you
They was in box so I've had to go and get my tea and my grub.
Cos of the insurance people used to creep about, see if you was in the box.
And if you wasn't in your box and anything happened you wouldn't get nothing.
So what happened if you wanted to pop to the loo?
What?
What happened if you wanted to pop to the loo?
Oh!
You have to do it inside the box.
Get inside the box and do it.
You had to stay with them
Yeah.
literally
Yes, you 
twenty four hours a day?
Cor!
Ooh ooh!
Daren't leave.
No, once you take over a job you take over a job.
Ah yeah!
Do they still do that today?
What?
Well er, er some places are very strict.
These Arab places I should think they do.
Very strict.
Especially mares and what they've got er, er today.
The valuation of the mares and sanxters Threapingham Stud, I should think so.
They were strict enough when I was in, when I flying, never mind about anything else.
Talking about flying the horses  was there special preparation  for flying them?
No, you just had your stalls.
Used to, we used to put five foals in a  a er, take them like  two stalls, you take the middle stall out and the top box you used to get five foals in.
See the, we used to work with the five.
The closer they are the better they were you see, they couldn't kick, they couldn't roll about.
Got me?
Yes.
And er  that's how we used to fix everything in like that you see.
I've been the top, middle, down  bu bunk down.
I was at the top end one, and all the draught come through the door, paralysed me.
And then at the back end you get the  , you know.
What?
Er the  in the aeroplane, you wanna be in the middle, if you can get in the middle you're 
Yeah.
alright.
Yeah.
You come, you go to Ireland  and you, you might come in, on a lovely sunny day like this  and you get half way over  and you've go yo you think Jesus Christ has got hold of you!
Yo you've got  go get in them air pockets.
Yeah, good job you've got hay ni you've got hay net on at each horse, you know.
I used to sit the, sit against the wall and hold onto my hay net.
Cos you never know when you're gonna drop into these pockets, you know.
Don't half give you a ti 
Yes.
you know, you think it was gone.
Mm.
What did the horses do when you hit an air pocket?
They just chu you know they, some of them kick about and some
Mhm.
goes up rough.
And wa and one or two bad journeys with them when they've got out and everything got over the top, top 
What in the aeroplane?
Oh in aeroplane.
Oh yes.
What d'ya do then?
Well, get hold of them.
Give them the needle quick.
Needle?
Give them needle and put them  back in the stalls again.
What, an injection of so 
Injection.
Wha what do you inject them with then?
Well it keeps, just keeps them quiet dunnit?
What 
Ju 
sedative?
Sends them dozy and  open the door and put them back in again.
Well they get over the top, we had them over the top, hanging over the top.
They hurt themselves?
Well er, course they hurt theirselves but they're, that's their, that's their look out.
As long as we can get them inside, we don't want them outside do we?
Mhm.
Oh yes.
Well terrible, we've had some, been some funny things.
We've had foals get out and everything.
Terrible things we've had.
Well you'd be surprised, that's why you have cow collars.
You have them big cow collars all ready for them, you know.
Hold them down.
They  want rearing and all that, they want to rear you see but  so long as you get them settled and stand on them  do anything, keep them down.
Oh it's not all easy.
You don't think it  they're up there, you're flying in comforts.
You're not.
Not easy.
Do you stay with the horses all the while u in the flight?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The young girls fetch the grub along.
The girls fetch the grub along.
And er to er  well, you know  I could tell you some tales about them.
Er, on th on the, on the big planes you see  like when  what we used to take twenty eight  twenty eight out to
Mm mm.
Hong Kong and Tokyo and all them places.
We used to, twenty eight  there used to be two lavatories, madam and gents, you know.
And these stewardesses you know, they're only just tall and ordinary you know  well they  they'd got black tights, got black'uns on you know, all wore black'uns.
And they says  as soon as you see one coming you sa say  can I got  make your bloody mind up which one do you want!
They're all the same the stewardesses .
You ought to see them  .
Oh dear.
This is a good  a good .
They were good to us them stewardesses.
They were tough sport, they loved it.
You know  come down and touch, they were always wanting to be with your horses.
Give you plenty of grub.
Look after you.
Soup  come.
Ma myself, of course I was married.
Do you know, I, I've come  I've come away from Luton, Stansted  at times, Cambridge especially when I've come down, perhaps half a dozen dinners.
Half a dozen dinners, you see, when I've got in and haven't been, you, haven't been in the oven, haven't eaten  phworgh, fetch the home lovely.
You can bring them home?
Brurgh, yeah.
Too true!
Bring the home, shove them in the oven.
Phworgh, phworgh!
Cos all that  horsebox drivers used to ask for them.
Did they?
Yeah, but with us on the plane they had a privilege you see.
You would wanna take any grub with you, see.
We had a privilege.
But the horsebox drivers used to always ask for them.
Cos they didn't want it to go bad you see.
Mm.
Oh yes, it was lovely.
It's most interesting I found it.
A bit nervous at the start I was, I di hadn't been in aeroplane, you know.
Not with horses.
Only my son.
But I hadn't on  with the horses.
That's, the going up  but once you're up.
But once you're up you look see then al you're alright.
Easy as wink your eye.
I don't mind now.
Easy.
And then  another thing yo you, also, there's tricks in everything.
Now, if you had two horses up the front, you see  th their heads are facing this way  the engines,th starboard  er, two engines you see  and they all put starboard up first you know.
Always send one engine off first you see.
Well the shadow of these wheels going round like that, this is what we learnt,al that's what I learnt anyway, shadow going round like that keep marking on the walls and the sun don't they?
So they always used to say if you ever get two up the front take your coat off and cover the windows up.
So th they don't see nothing then.
You learn all that.
Mm.
Cos the shadows frighten the horses.
Yeah.
Mm.
Mhm.
And the, the row of the engines, see 
Yeah.
when you start the  and then, the doors  you know, the big door they shut up?
Mm.
The last thing when you're all in, in  when you're all in, and down at the bottom  they curve under like that  you know, curve under.
Phworgh!
And when it's, and when the blooming wind catches you up there!
Ooh!cold.
What it blows straight in?
And it gets underneath that  underneath the door and the water can't come in you know, but the  see cos it's  like  fits with the curve underneath, you see.
This is in an aeroplane?
Yeah.
On the 
Mm 
aeroplane, the last door up, you know, that they 
Mhm.
clamp up.
Yeah that fits underneath.
Do you remember years ago  a  an aeroplane burning all the mares in London?
All Billy  's mares?
The plane come down and bursted into flames.
Did it?
All the mares on.
I come off that plane at Gatwick  and I was one of the luckiest fellas to be in the  called Cohen.
We had an  come to near, Morris and Co had gone to Ireland.
When they arrive in Eddington, go on, go on to, take the plane and go on with the plane to Ireland.
Well the plane arrived at Gatwick  and he's had to take these mares back from Gatwick cos the plane that was taking them had broken down.
So of course, we didn't go on it, we come home to Newmarket.
And everybody sa shouting out, plane come down at six o'clock.
I don't get home till about half past nine at night.
And said, who's on the plane then?
Working the names, they had ,wi you know.
So well, I always remember it cos my missus was in the White Hart, she was telling me about it.
And they come and said, he's coming down street now.
And they thought I was on that plane blown up.
That's who, I tell you.
They couldn't believe their eyes could they?
No.
When they saw you.
No.
They couldn't.
I was telling you the truth.
And the fella that was on it named  has, lives up the Goldfinks, he, he's still alive.
What, there was another  on as well?
Funny, on it.
No, yeah, yeah.
Another  on it too.
And the boy at erm  at erm  Mebson, Mebson fella, what was his name?
Revs.
What was his name that fella?
She runs in bus the old woman runs the business now.
He was on it and he got blown right out.
Everything he'd lost.
Terrible thing!
Yeah.
He survived it did he?
The, the 
Yeah.
He was on it.
i 
He's alright.
the injury.
Bloody too same!
Badly injured?
Well he's badly injured, yeah.
What, and all the mares got burnt?
But  got, he got, he's, he's got a short leg and rips and everything you know.
Where he blew out with i he was at  at the end of the plane.
Were there any Newmarket horses on there?
Yes!
All Billy  's mares.
Mm mm.
Yeah.
All new foal too.
Beautiful.
They were all coming back from France in foal.
What they'd been over there to a stallion?
Stallions.
Yeah.
Going to Whitbry Stud.
Oh!
Terrible do that was.
I thought you'd remember that.
No, I, I didn't actually.
Yeah.
I was on that plane.
Yeah.
I was on that, there was several of us.
One or two more besides me alive today that was on it, but  we wasn't on it when it bursted up.
We, we was lu we didn't go back.
I didn't go back anyway.
Me and Bill , he's dead  we had an ajax come through to  and  go on to Ireland, to go back to Dublin, yeah, they're going back to  with the plane.
So they fetched some mares over in the morning.
I was very lucky, I tell you.
Had some lucky escapes in a way.
You work it out for myself.
Aha.
Have you?
Yeah.
What other sort of  escapes have you had ?
Yeah.
Always.
I dunno why, but  when I was in the army I always picked, I never, I, I  I always picked my own pit, you know.
Picked my own pit.
Funny  I used to sleep on the side of banks, you could dig out on the banks, sleep, sit on the  oh yeah.
Where you would think one wouldn't drop, you know.
Where you think, but  oh yes, I always very conscientious I was.
I wouldn't sma well I wouldn't smoke.
But these Iri you're not supposed to smoke on the plane but these blooming Irishmen on the plane used to get down on smoke.
That's the last thing the skipper'd say  big red lights, no smoking.
Yeah.
And the last thing before you shut them doors, you say, and now no smoking.
Anything.
Would you have straw in the, in the stalls where the horses were?
What?
Did the horses have straw in the stalls?
No.
No.
Just stand like, as if you're travelling in an horse box.
Really?
Well a bit of straw under their feet.
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What about, did you have to take your own feed along  for them?
Oh you,we well there, you had a, had a big net.
All depends your distance you was going.
You had little nets and big nets.
As long as they was eating they were alright you see.
But some, some you had to give the needle to before you set off.
Cos they couldn't hear  brurgh, baa brurgh, baa baa baa, when they first started up, see.
Yeah.
And they said, and the plane shaked , course the, that rocks the plane.
So you had to have it, they when to sle they were worse when they were coming out of it.
Their eyes glare.
Just like a rabbit with myxomatosis.
Their eyes screw out and ooh ooh.
Really?
It's terrible!
Oh yes, I've had one or two  one or two er  I thi I can't think of the stallion's name, he had a wall eye this beast did.
He got out of the planes coming, we, we was  coming over from de Laborgie and you give him the needle and I had to lead him off the  lead him off the plane, and going down over the chimneys  in Chantilly to landu Laborgie he goes, woo ooh ooh, getting ready you know.
Mm.
Eyes looking back and  I'd got the old bit moving all the time keeping, he said righto  get out, you're leading me, they were too pleased to get rid of them.
Let them do what they like as long as you're not  well they do, they kill you, kill you stone dead er them French vaches Cos, see you go in down here you see, where you've gotta jump up  to get out  gotta jump up off the floor, you gotta jump up about four feet to get out see, they weren't just like 
Yeah?
up onto the horse  you're going on, you go straight in off the road.
Vaches Shove them up the back.
What did you call them?
Vaches they call them in Fre 
Vaches 
in France, yes.
A, horseboxes,vaches 
Yeah.
Vache 
In, in the early days,wha when, when you first came to Newmarket  did horses move around
Move around?
in those days like they do  in the time you've been talking about?
Well, you were talking flying the horses around  putting them in horses boxes  well in those days they didn't have many  vehicles did they?
Well they, they we on 
So 
they went by train.
Went by train?
All went by train.
Well wha 
Special tra special trains weren't there?
Did they?
They,i if there was a race meet er there  like they have er, in June.
That's what they call er,la that's what they call a Scotch circuit that lasts five weeks, four weeks.
Er, Ayr, Lannock, Musselburgh, Dogside  Dogside, Lannock  about three weeks it lasts dunnit?
And you leave here at twenty to eight at night  a an and you arrive at, you arrive in Ayr in the morning about half past seven.
Travelling all night.
Do you stay with the horse all the while?
All in horse boxes.
Same as at Newcastle.
Newcastle, York, all them big places use to be what they all specials.
But if you went in the horse box on your single you'd be all day getting there.
Cos you were shunted there, and shunted there  took off here, and took off there.
So they ran, did they run a special train from Newmarket here?
Newmarket.
Oh yeah!
From the station?
Yeah.
From the 
Strai 
station.
Yeah.
Just specially to take horses?
Yes.
Hor horses only.
Oh yeah.
So, how would, how would they work that?
Would erm  the  would the erm  racing authorities hire the train off British Rail?
We what 
Or did they have their own trains?
Oh no, you, British Rail.
You had everything 
Mm mm.
off of British Rail.
Mm.
Oh yes, they, they, they've, they've, they even leave their own head collars and ropes in.
But we never used to use them cos they was too big, you know.
Too big.
But if horse went on his own you'd have to put it on.
See?
Yo a you'd have to put th their head collar and rope on it.
Even though it was too big ?
On the big sa on,sa you know big sta stallions, you know.
And how did you get them up the station?
Lead them up the station.
Lead them?
Oh.
Lead them up.
Oh yes!
That was, that's nothing that wasn't.
It's like the yearlings from Doncaster, Doncaster Specials.
They didn't fetch ten  ye they used about fifty, or sixty, or seventy yearlings from Doncaster all in one special.
What, and bring them to Newmarket?
And come to Newmarket to different trainers.
Yes!
And one of them best lads of the yard used to go up there and meet the year meet them.
Oh yeah.
How did you get up the station to meet them?
Did you walk up or  did somebody take you up?
If the  yeah there's a fella , there's a fella alive today  I wa I was in the car outside the pub called the Carpenter's Arms with him cos er  ain't you trouble with your, oh oh Chuck his name was, Chuck , I said don't you worry what you  what yo ah!
He said, it don't matter a pick.
Don't matter who I pick, you know.
Pick of the yearlings.
He went up there this year, I was up, this is true on God's, I'm in this chair  he said, come on I'll  I'm going now I'm gonna get my, I had to go  I had to go and get Rififi, a filly called Rififi I did.
And he went and picked a yearling up and what do you think it was?
Sansavino.
And that won the Derby.
It di nobody wanted to do it, he had a big head  it had lopped ears
Roman nose, ooh it was ugly beast!
Big feet.
Nobody wanted to do it.
Yet it won the Derby.
It won the Derby.
Chuck done it.
He done it.
Won the Derby.
What do you think of that?
Yeah.
Just  yeah.
Eh, oh Chuck .
Yes he's still alive somewhere up, over here.
Yeah, I always remember that.
And Ipea was just the opposite.
Ipea weren't as big as your  what you've got.
Little tiny old  lovely pony.
Was he?
Lovely horse, yeah.
Yes, his statue's down the road there.
Just erm
Yeah.
Down Fordham Road.
Yeah.
Chamus there, the bigger horse, a bit farther on.
Oh they're nice places round here when you er 
They are all blu Newmarket bred horses?
What?
Were they all Newmarket bred horses?
Yeah!
Yeah!
Oh yeah.
All bred here.
Lord  's had Ipea didn't he?
Yeah.
Chamus there was Solly  's.
Oh yes.
Th all, all along here, they've all got statues.
All the statues of the stud.
Oh yeah, they all look alike.
But still, ahem, I'm, I'm different to you, horses don't appeal to me.
Horses don't appeal to you?
Well I've se I've seen so many of them.
Jack 
I've 
I find that hard to believe !
I, I, I, don't wanna know anything about them.
Seven days a week!
Did you have  holidays?
What?
In the na nineteen sort of twenties when you were in stables
Aha.
did you have holidays?
Hola no, no, that's what we're all on about today, all us old'uns.
Holidays?
If you'd had a good horse, you asked for hol holiday with er, alright you'd get it, you wouldn't do your horse, you know, they'd take your horse off you.
Take your living away from you.
They take your horse 
Now th 
off you?
Well they would, yes.
And give it 
In them days.
to somebody else?
And give it to somebody else to do.
So if you were looking after your horse say, you don't want no holidays.
Cos, you're getting your bob or two in them days, you know, you use to get money for it.
I was gonna say, did you get perks for 
Oh yeah.
if the horse did well?
Course you did.
Yeah.
Who d'ya get that off then?
Mm.
Well you see that's what they had to do.
Now today, they get fifty thousand pound!
Here are look  I'll show you one up there look  Oh So Sharp
Yeah.
you remember that don't ya?
Mm.
That's up there somewhere.
He used to come in here  he didn't know er how good it was, he's a  a bit of  a bit of a lady, you know, kick your eye out, and he come in here, I can see him now si sitting on that chair there  er, and I was sat there  and I said to him, I said er  why don't you start kidding to it and all this madam, you know, give it sweets and this other.
He said, only he don't like.
He said, he do, wanna bet?
He don't like, he don't like.
Says you're doing this so's you're responsible.
You, do your best.
Well he started to buy some bloody peppermints  erm them  bar peppermints  erm  then he bought hole in the wall, them there round ones.
The Polos.
Po yeah.
And er, he, he got it so he'd eat out of pocket, and exercise, you know, turn its head round and  and  in that side, you know.
Oh So Sharp would turn, well that's what he got him to do.
Well she won all them races.
He won the one thousand, as you know, and then she won the Oaks.
And then  we went, and that Sheik Mohammed  tha that owned her, he turned round give him fifty thousand pound.
Married man with two kids.
Fifty thousand pound.
Fifty thousand?
He bought the car off my boy  i i it was worth five thousand odd, it was worth  and he, he used to cart me about, see  just  you know, Steve did, before he, we got this money  he used to go up to what is that?
That's the microphone.
So he said  and er  he said er, my son said to him, I'll tell you what I'll do, he said I'll sell it to you for three thousand pound ready.
And he went to the bank and he got him three thousand pound ready and he got this beautiful car, he hadn't it eighteen months before he wrapped it round a tree.
Ha Ah!
No!
Well, wicked it was.
Beautiful car.
Beautiful car.
My son done the  yes it was worth five thousand odd.
My, my son'd tell you if he was here.
Because he was a pal of mine he just let him have it and
Mm mm.
no readies, no on the , you give me readies you can have it for three thousand dead.
If you wanted er four thousand odd it'd cost you, and you can pay me interest, you know
Yeah.
on the, on the lot.
But he, he give him three thousand in readies and he went and wrapped it round a blooming tree on top of the Molton Road!
Wicked!
What sort of  what sort of tip would you get in your day  if your horse did well?
Nothing.
Nothing?
Nothing.
We never used to get nothing, that's what I say.
When erm  the gentry in them days wouldn't give you nothing.
Wouldn't give you nothing.
They gave bonus here and there, sometimes two hundred pound for Christmas.
You know, when they share round at Christmas.
Yeah.
Well you come home with hundred pound  if you hadn't done no winners or anything you'd come home with hundred pound.
You didn't get that in my time.
Phworgh!
You get nothing.
You just got your wages and that's all.
Mm.
You'd  people think it's easy  let them have a go at it.
Had my time over again and I, I'm still living here to tell the story, they know 
Mm.
I'm telling the truth, Sue and all.
Wouldn't give you nothing.
That was racing.
Going back to your normal routine, in stables
Yeah.
you said you  were responsible for two horses
What?
you were responsible for two horses.
Oh yes.
Yes.
Responsible for two horses.
And what would you do to your horse?
Well you just carry on every day.
You do same  what you done with the first used to carry on, you'd, you have horse give ya, and you look after it.
You know exactly what time they're going exercise, you've gotta have it, get it ready to go out exercise.
You come in exercise.
You'd do it, you'd feed it, go and have your breakfast to while they was having theirs.
You'd do your animal, get your next one out.
And you always worked by time in stables, you'd get out at say, you went at six o'clock, you got out till seven  and were out two hours, that's seven, eight, nine.
You'd do we by the time you get in nine o'clock you're supposed to be re half past nine you're supposed to be finished the first one.
You see, what I mean?
Mm mm.
And have your breakfast.
Well you'd get out at, er go back to your other one, you get out, you get about  just after ten o'clock  see?
All rush with your grub in your hand.
About ten o'clock.
From ten o'clock then  you come in, you've got the yard to do, chaff to cut  straw to get in  hay to get in.
Bu all, everything to do.
You got all th the place has gotta be left tidy as er, if you'd come there in the morning.
That's your routine right up to night time and all.
There are.
What time would you finish?
Well, sometimes six o'clock, eight o , I mean, seven o'clock, eight o'clock.
At night?
Night time, yeah.
Oh yeah.
When I come out of the, I'd  a th thing I never told you which you should have known, when I come out of the war there were, we was only getting twenty seven and tanner a week in the stables.
Twenty seven
Twenty seven and sixpence.
Oh yes.
And then it went up to thirty, thirty shillings.
And then it went from thirty shillings and thirty two and sixpence.
It went from thirty two and sixpence to er  thirty seven and sixpence  and then it went up to two guineas, two quid a week.
That's what we was always getting, for seven days a week.
Seven days a week!
Yeah.
And no holidays.
No.
Well ju at the  that's what people, they, they don't know what it is.
See they won't, it, it's ridiculous!
Did you have any unions?
What?
Did you have any unions?
Ra 
D'ya, you know like er normal workers have a union don't they?
Oh yeah.
Oh no, not in them days.
No.
We had, we tried a union here years ago, we couldn't get on with it.
Choo!
Half in and half out.
No, it was no good.
I don't believe in them myself.
Don't believe in, I said er  er couldn't do anything.
And I couldn't say nowt.
You mustn't condemn them, you mustn't do anything, you must just sit quiet and  say nothing.
Yeah.
No, but the people wo la wouldn't realize it.
I'll tell you when I was i whe when I was  when I was head man for Sammy  I was only getting fifteen quid a week  and my, and my house.
Oh you had a house?
Yeah.
Fifteen quid!
Yeah.
They're getting two hundred a week now.
Mm mm.
Two, head man gets two hundred quid a week now.
And part, and part 
Does he still get a house?
and ten percent of the wi er th er the, the bonus of everything in the  winnings?
Yes!
Cos without the head man a trainer can't train horse, and I'm telling you that for nothing!
My guvnor told me that.
What are the duties of the head man then?
What?
What are the duties of the head man?
Well the head lad was a, er the head lad had to see  the head lad's er, job was to be there first in the morning  and the last off the place at night.
First thing in the morning he'd unlock the doors, lock it up, he'd been there long, hour before the men did.
Go round 
Yeah.
but you see he'd have a list  of the horse who's gonna work or win races  well if them animals didn't eat up he didn't work them.
You understand?
Yeah.
He went back, some horses left a bit in their manger  I used to have to put all that down  nothing verbal, all on paper.
See?
And the lads used to come, they used to do, in them days, you know, they wanted to go out in the country to get a bob or two.
Cos er, I, I used to say to them  I know where they've eat up or not, I do, and we've got them .
I'd say, eat up boy.
Yes.
I never used to say that, I used to keep my mouth shut and say  put a cross against his name, see  not to be trusted see the, you've gotta do it yourself see.
Go round, and that's how you find them out.
And that's how you train horses.
That's why trainers are  are good to everybody.
See?
Mhm.
Like Reg  's good to me.
Let me see.
But  's lads, you can't train horses, you've gotta tell them, tell him everything exactly.
Yeah.
That fella up at Cecil's, I should he must be getting a fortune.
He got hundred and forty one horses  ten percent 
and ten
Yeah.
and 
Erm 
half the lads doing his work.
They don't say nothing.
In your day how many horses would you have when you were head lad?
You had to do it yourself.
But how many horses would you have in your yard?
Well, about seventy five I had at  's.
Mm mm.
Er the most we had at Reg  's when I was up there, is thirty five, forty, forty two.
Mm.
That's all the yard'd hold.
Are, are yards bigger today than they were do you think?
down there  well he's got hundred and odd ain't he?
Look at the boxes he got.
Mm.
Oh yes.
At  's I had seventy five at  's, he had two yards.
Oh yeah.
Were you responsible for working out the amount of the feed that the
Yes.
animals had?
As to an ounce.
Re Reg   er er, er say we had er say, twenty ton o twenty ton of oats come in  and we soon used them up  before the next lot, I'll start on the next lot  he, the sample man'd come in, you know, sample  in come them oats  he'd come up perhaps, when they come in, check the first two or three sacks with me, you see, and then I'd have to get a rubber  get a bowl full of oats, bowl full of whole oats put into the rubber, see  and get a bowl full of whole and put them through the crusher  and crush  the main, like, you know, like we used to have, just squeeze them, you know crack them
Mm.
weigh them both  see, weigh them both.
Every animal's done by weight.
When you've filled his hay nets up you give him ten pound of hay.
Ten to twelve pound of hay.
Then you knew what he was eating.
If it was good hay that was as good as two bowls of corn.
Was it?
Oh yeah.
You get some good hay.
You get good bedder hay or good, some mixture, good, good sand , a bit of sand  with it is good hay.
Yeah.
As long as it's good.
Earlier on you mentioned a rubber
Rubber.
can you explain what the rubber is?
Well the rubber's a, well, you call it a teatle you call it a teatle it's a rubber.
We use them as rubbers.
See?
We use them as rubber and you hold them in your arms, alright?
And you hold them in your arm just see the wa I mix them up in the feed, I mix the feed up with some of it, and then tip it into the rubber you see.
And they carry them in the rubbers and put them in the mangers.
Why is it called a rubber?
Well er, well they were  they always was rubbers since they was, it's proba it's a teatle actually.
I in fact, half the rubber you, cos yo unless you order them and buy them like we used to buy them in  some big packets  but erm, you buy them in a shop, you buy them and they've got teatles right across the middle haven't they?
Same one.
Same sort of thing.
Mm.
Only on a bigger scale, they had them made on a bigger scale you see.
I haven't got one now to show you now.
I used to have one.
Called rubbers.
Yes, a set of tools consists of, that's what you want now.
And your set of tools used to consist of, what you, what you give the men  it consists of dandy brush, body brush, water brush  curry comb, and a picker.
And that's a picker for picking horses feet out with.
If you don't look after their feet it  you, which is very important indeed you, see.
See horse's feet's picked out properly  before he goes out exercising and when he comes in exercise.
See?
Now some people don't wash them er, horrible George  never washed horses feet out.
Understand?
Mm mm.
And when they picked us out they used to put the rubber on the ground  pick the dirt out of their feet  and put it into their manger, not throw it away, put it into their manger because horses love to lick mud.
Love to lick it.
See, if you go out hunting or anything like that and you don't  that animal will love to lick that mud off its, off its feet, off its hoof.
See?
Some animals you cut turfs of  little bits of turf out  and you put in the, in the corner of the box and they, they lick that and amuse themselves by eating it bit by bit.
Another thing we do, you'll, give them rock salt.
You can have it in on a block, or, and put it on the floor, a lump and put it on the floor.
Buy it from Boots as we did.
Mhm.
Or otherwise, you buy them in blocks and screw them on the wall.
High  blocks they're, they're called you know.
Lick them, you see, keeps them  people, er, farmers use them today, chuck them out in the field 
Yeah.
for the cows to lick, see?
Like a brick.
They're like a brick, that's it.
Haul that  and the they run down, when you feed you see, well, you,sa and you exercise, have you, did I give you exercise?
No.
Well you, we come in the mornings, you start about six o'clock, you see?
Start the morning about six o'clock and you muck out  dress your horse over  make him ready we call it  make him ready, and you turn out at say, quarter to seven.
When you say dress your horse over you mean groom him?
Groom them.
That's right.
Groom them.
You groom them.
See, we call it dressing them over you see.
Er, you get ready and yo by quarter to seven the head lad see goes and walks round and he says, oh eh okay, come on, get a move on we wanna be out.
Well you start getting out so that you leave the place at seven o'clock.
The horses are walking round in a ring then.
All your horses are out, put your men up  they walk round the ring and at seven o'clock you move off to the heath  to train your horses.
Well, you know, practically, the governor or the head you see, he knows what he's gotta work, but erm, I, I know because the lads don't, but he generally tells them well I wanna work so and so and he gives me a bit of paper with the horses names on wants galloping.
And soon as he said righto Jack, take the rugs off, I'd take  or the,little lad helps me as well, you know  and he takes the rugs off and then I tell them what to do you see.
Some are five furlongs, some seven furlongs, some's a mile.
Some are long distance horses, you see, you train them all separately.
Not all at once.
You do the five furlongs first  and then your long distance runners  see?
Your two year olds don't do as much exercise sometimes as the old horses do.
Old horses want more time and le than two years olds do.
Cos they don't want the time, they don't want two hours dragging about on their legs.
But the old animals must have it  see like th for fitness.
Oh.
Don't hurt them.
And when you gallop them you put the rugs on  and you walk them home quietly  i if it's a nice day like this, you give them a pick of grass in the paddock.
Ten minutes in the paddock, pick of grass, see.
Turn 
Then 
them out loose in the paddock?
Ye in the paddock, yeah.
Just le lea you're leading them home so let them pick a bit of grass  and then you go on into the yard and I'll give them the breakfast, they have their breakfast  and while they're eating their breakfast you're doing your horse  and you get finished and then you go and have yours.
And you come back again and you get out again about half past nine, ten o'clock.
See?
What's, this with the second horse?
What we call a second lot.
And the second lot er er is  er, not much galloping.
Sometimes you gallop them se if you don't get them all in first lot, it all depends on the jockeys, if you get the jockeys or not.
But, then you don't  yo they're not so important the second lot, as what we call, well you call them spares, we call them spare in the stables you see.
Today, they got so many horses, like, Cecil got hundred and forty, and  's hundred and forty, well  so you got three lots  you can't do it.
He th they, they're not finished here till one o'clock and after you see.
They also, must have the time, must have the exercise.
You can't win races standing in the stable, you gotta be  fit.
Yeah.
Er er 
And you go on from there  er, you've, mm mm, we come and exercise, they do their own, they sweep up  they sweep up and then carry on with their ordinary routine of every day.
They  er you take it in turns, two of you go out and cut the chaff  see?
When you, what they clean the horses with, cut the chaff, cut the green mead up  and then all ready.
You feed them  half past twelve, whatever it is, twelve o'clock, and then they go home and you come back again at half past four.
Then you start at half past four  I'll go round and give them a bit of tea, all of them, you see, see if they've eat, those that's eat up  horses eat up, give them a bit of tea and then the lads start on them  and they dress them over till they sa well, well say, we give them till six o'clock  wa to do two horses.
And then I'll go down and ge for the governor and say, alright governor?
All ready.
And they have to show their horses all the way, the governor walks all the way round the lot of them.
See if they're alright.
Feels their legs, feels their bodies, feels their skin  pulls the, you know, all, all sorts.
All sorts of tricks what they do.
What's he looking for when he's feeling the legs?
Well, see if there any trouble.
Filling  any fillings er, anything the matter you see.
I have, I go round first, I report all the lame one, and I report all the good ones, you see, but I go round them all before I go down to see him.
Mm.
As soon as th they're finished I go round them, see?
As they finish so I go round their horses and then I've gotta go down and report to him.
So and so's, so and so's lame, and so and so's got a big leg  so and so caught hiself this morning, had an overreach.
An overreach is, you know what an overreach is don't you?
Front, catch a bit off the front
When the back one catches the 
That's right.
front one.
That's, the front one.
And I, or the speedy cuts.
That's where animals go over the iron legs cut inside of the hocks.
You see?
You report all of this.
And he looks for it when he comes round you see.
But he don't worry about it cos he knows th th er, it actually happens you see, all I've gotta do is keep them clean.
Mm.
It's my job to keep all the wounds clean.
And dress them you see.
If it's a veterinary job, well I have to send for the vet.
Understand?
Would you call the vet in often?
Er, you wouldn't call them in for the petty things.
Not, better things you know yoursel what to do yourself.
You will know.
Mm mm.
But you always leave it to your governor.
But if your governor's away never trust nothing  ring a vet.
Understand?
Mm.
If your master's away at the race meeting and anything happened to a horse  I don't carry my respons I don't do it on my shoulders, I go and get a vet.
The vet's responsible for it.
See and one way, it gets me out of my trouble.
Mm.
And the owners are pleased because the vet's seen it.
You understand?
Yeah.
Pleases the owner.
The owners have to re know all this you know.
The owners ought to know all this and  and yo your governor.
Well I suppose ringing them up and telling them how they've been going, how they're galloping, how they don't gallop.
It's all ra mm mm  it's hard, it's not easy.
Would you fill out a, a report sheet at the end of the day?
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah!
You can report everything.
Put everything down.
If you go to, your master's away cu say he's gone to race meeting and  it takes two day, they're going to be up at, say Ascot, more likely he goes for the week.
See?
We get all, I, all he comes home, we works the horses in the morning and goes and stays you see  overnight and 
Mhm.
everything.
I have to do all that.
I carry on with the horses, working the horses and then report to him by phone, go in the, in the office and  re he's there at the other end, knows what time I'm gonna ring him up.
He's there, and I can ring him up and report to him when he er er, how they've gone, how they're feeding, how they're doing and how they're not.
Just to please him you see.
And he's satisfied.
He lets the owners know, whoever asked him.
Well my head man's told me that everything's okay and he's eat up well this morning and, and, he's doing well.
See?
So it's  it's very complicated but it's er er, you've got to do it.
See, without the head man the trainer couldn't train horses without a head man.
Or the travel head lad.
See they travel half the morning.
It's alright, it was you tapped your microphone.
After, did I?
Aha.
After, after er er I've done with them  the travel head lad takes over, he does all the ol the tra the race course, you know.
Does all this work.
What when they go to a race meeting?
When they go to race meetings.
He's got all the colo his job is to look after all the colours of all the patrons.
What, the 
See?
the racing colours?
The racing colours.
The silks?
And 
Yes.
See they're washed and cleaned and everything, if they get dirty or rain or wet.
And erm  he goes, say I, say, we've got a runner today, Peony, but erm the lad's gotta go  he's gotta go into the weighing room,wa well he's, get his form, fill it in  the weight he's got  the jockey who rides him, that's gotta be erm, forty five minutes before the race.
But they generally put them in early, about half past eleven, you know?
Erm, because you've got all of your orders and the, if you've got blinkers, you've gotta declare blinkers.
Understand?
Mm mm.
All tha you've gotta de all that's gotta be done  on this paper otherwise you'll find  all the, your animal don't run.
Well you've gotta declare apprentice, if you have apprentice rider, and you've gotta declare what weight he's carrying, whether he carries five, three, or seven.
It's all 
What 
weight.
five, three, or seven pounds?
Weight.
No, they claim that.
Well they claim that you see.
Some apprentices claim seven, some claim five, some claim three.
See the more winners you ride the less weight  less you could claim.
See?
Say you, you hadn't rode a winner, well you get full eleven  seven pound.
Well after you've rode so many winners, they knock two pound off, you carry five.
And after you rode them five, so many, twenty, I think it's twenty, and then  er er you're knocked down to three.
And when you've lost that three you're finished.
You see, it's up to you to ma well you use your own head and get on then.
And you've gotta struggle for yourself.
Mhm.
But trainers want good competitors when they're claiming their allowance.
And good competitors claiming a seven pound allowance, the trainer'll have him.
Cos there's seven pound off horse's back.
See what I mean here?
How do they work out the allo the, the allowance?
Is it  governed on the weight of the jockey?
What?
Er yes.
Oh yes.
Say horse has got eight seven  well you put a sa boy up that claims seven pound he, you, you, he carries eight stone instead of eight seven.
Mm.
So you want an eight stone jockey.
Eight stone for the boy, yeah.
Oh yeah.
And if he carries a pound overweight you've gotta declare it  otherwise you're fined.
You gotta,se when you go up on the scales you've gotta er  say  eight ten to ma he carried two pound overweight so you've gotta put him at the scale  and then the end of, the governor relies on the travel head lad to do this, the same as I'm head man at home.
Mhm.
He's trusted to do everything.
Saddle them and do everything.
He has an authority  you know,yo a written authority in his pocket  and if the stewards pull him up  he's got the authority to, what he's doing, carrying on.
Got me?
Mhm.
So he's sa he's solely in charge of the horses on race days?
Yes.
Travel head lad.
Mhm.
He's solely in charge of everything.
Till the old governor comes and  some, some trainers saddle them, but some leave it to travel head lad.
But very seldom interfere with the travel head lads.
All good stable I'm talking about, I'm not talking about ten-a-penny ones, you know?
All good, the big ones, Kilmarney's, Cecil's, Finlay's.
And this fella's just ran, this  Piggot's, all got a  head man to do it for them.
Tt.
Yeah, that's, that's his one job.
That's all he does.
Look after the  colours, tack  and travel the horses.
Does he take staff with him to help him?
Well no, they take them to go with the horses.
Th the jockeys?
No.
Th the, sorry.
Beg your 
The men.
pardon.
The stable 
The 
lads who look 
Yeah.
after the horses normally?
Yeah, they go, they go with the horses.
They go with the horses.
And these long , then man out see, but they call them travel head lads see?
Mm.
He's head lad over there, and once they leave my yard he's in charge of them.
Mhm.
See?
Going back to training the horses
Which?
going back to training them
Yeah?
how many times a week would you gallop the horse?
Oh twice.
Just twice.
Er you fe you, you call a time, we used  we used to do it on We Wednesdays and Saturdays.
But,th the man like the, they all got different methods, see?
Whether they were  's trained ready, when I, men I saw in my time we'd, he galloped them on Wednesdays and Sundays.
Cos he had all the jockeys, the jockeys, no racing on a Sunday and he had jockeys to ride them instead of the boys in the stable.
Understand?
Er  yes.
Now would they normally get their  er a jockey  to gallop the horse rather than just the stable boy?
Yes.
Instead of them.
Mm.
You see th mm  er more  more brains and more idea of it you see.
Understand?
Mm.
Otherwise the trainer's satisfied with his own men he do he gallops Wednesdays and Saturdays.
Perhaps er, you see, Sundays some er ta er er, every runner goes out on a Sunday.
And Sunday's an easy day you see.
The  not engaged and er, they don't take them out.
But runners, they take all runners out and they're out exercise and come in.
It's one  one ru consistent, same thing all the  all the, every day of your life.
What about Christmas time?
Oh well yo at Christmas time, they don't do it here, but er  not today they don't, they give horses physic physically a powder now.
I used to  er er  when I was head man  on erm  Boxing Day, Christmas Day, the day before Christmas er
Christmas Eve.
so like  they would for  two days before Christmas  you, you ball a horse  give a ball, see?
And the second day is purging day.
You see, that's, two, that's like, start two days before Christmas see?
You give them a ball of what?
You give them ball, a physique ball, that's  bitter , you know?
Get it into your fingers and you
What laxative?
Er, well yeah, it's a li it's a roll like that.
I used to roll them in my hand and get them warm and get them in my finger like that and  shoot it down, and watch it go down er
What  pinch your fingers together and push it in its 
That's right.
Chew them.
mouth?
You push over the, as long as you got over the .
I used to do, get them to have all their heads round and go round and do them.
Thirty and forty horses I used to have to ball then.
Well, they sa they've  works them the next day, and then Christmas Day we call it setting day, they're all done up int they?
See, you do them up.
We call it setting day that.
Do them 
See?
up?
You do them up, you don't da you muck them out, dress them over, let them loose  they have a easy time like we do.
Like the human beings.
What, you, you, you turn them into the paddock?
Yeah.
No.
In, in the stables.
See?
And give them, done them as soon as you like, get done as soon as you like.
Mm mm.
So they didn't go out for exercise?
But Boxing Day, you go out the next day, so, ordinary exercise.
You only have one rest.
One, Christmas Day that is.
Mm mm.
Well some lads have Christmas and some having Boxing Day.
So you have to split them up between you.
You can't please them all.
Mm Mm.
But half of them don't turn up.
But you've gotta put up with it.
But that's what, that's tha course today they do cos they're getting paid well today.
So,toda what's happens in these days now?
They  work them all over Christmas?
Oh.
No!
They do just the same.
Work all the while.
They have weekends off, what they call long weekends off, Friday to Monday.
Who looks after the horses at weekends now 
Well, the other men in the yard.
Oh.
We have to do them, we have to  help one another.
Oh yeah, you do yours and I'll do yours, see?
You do mine when I'm off.
Yes.
See?
I done yours, now you look 
Mm.
after mine.
That's how they have to do it.
But they're doing three each now today you know.
Three.
Oh yeah!
Unless another  beast don't turn up.
But they get their money stopped of course.
See, if they don't turn up  they won't come in, they'd ra rather let you have a tenner than come into work.
See they're getting so much you see.
But today, it's one bu everything's, everything works alright today cos they're getting so much money you see.
And they do it alright, they take no notice of it.
Lads, give another lad a tenner to do his horses, if he wants to take off, he'll say I'll give you a tenner to do mine tonight.
And he does his for a tenner.
See you can do that now, but years ago if yo well didn't, they wouldn't allow you to do it.
Oh no, they wouldn't allow you, if you can't stop and do your horses we don't want to know you.
They'll say ah, if you have stable off, we had to give it to them you see.
Mm.
Well you, you can't, you can't stop them.
Going back to the weights
Weight?
that they carry when they're racing  how do they carry the weight?
Under the saddle, weight cloth.
Weight cloths.
They're all weighed out with  the saddle, weight cloths.
The jockeys, and everything, you know.
So  it's the 
And how 
in the stables we  we do exactly with the lads in the stables as the jockeys do in the weighing room.
We, weighing machine in the loft or in the, or in the, or in the best saddle room you see, you tell the lad er  fetch your saddle in yourself, get on it, I'll weigh you.
And he don't know what weight he's carrying, the lad don't.
Got me?
Mm mm.
Th but the governor who, who weighs you out, he knows what weight yo what he's putting all out, cos he's gotta  weight the horses out.
They use different weights for the horses.
He knows what weight all of you got.
And then, off you go and  make them ready and  when you get out onto the heath  you just, the horses what's galloping together, you've all been weighed out  and then who's riding them and they all  take the sheets off and they er  straightaway.
And they, do they all have to carry the same weight?
No, they don't all carry  I mean, you don't all carry the same weight in gallops.
Say, you wanted find out something and you, you've gotta one, one's gotta give so much weight away to something  well gallop me galloping them in extraordinary ways to find out whether he's any good or not.
Oh no, it's, there's no it's not easy.
And how are the weights carried on the weight cloth?
In lead.
All the square blocks of lead.
Lead about as big as that, all go in slots  or .
Ah well, if you don't do that, if you can't get it all in that you have leather waistcoats.
They give you a leather waistcoat to put on.
They know what weight it is.
They say, put that waistcoat on.
See, that's a stone, see?
Say you're eight stone  they make you put that waistcoat on, it's nine stone.
And you jump on there with your saddle and your  everything you  see th that's how they find out.
All tricks of the trade you see.
But they don't let you know what weight you're carrying.
Understand?
Not in stables.
Mm.
But the jockeys know.
When the jockeys come to ride well they know cos th say what weight are you?
Seven ten.
Seven ten, seven eleven.
You know, just guess within an ounce or two.
See?
We oh yeah, they don't let the li don't let the men know.
Is that
I know what weight they all got, and what they all carry.
Do you?
I know them ma myself, I  I've got it all in my book you see, when we 
Yeah.
gallop them.
Do they not let the stable lads know  so that they don't have an advantage over picking a winner?
A well th well, practically, nothing, it's nothing to do with them.
See you, you can't ask them  i i it's nothing to do with the lads at all.
You see?
They, they don't ask.
If you, if you're telling him not to look at it, they say look the other way it's nothing to do with you.
They tell you that you see.
They come to weigh you, see?
Say, you go in hospital, they weigh you every day you 
Mm.
see.
Usually telling you nothing, well they don't say anything to us.
Mm mm.
But why don't they want the stable lads to know what weights?
Well, it always was secret weren't it, in the stables?
Just one  one secret thing all the time.
And  they don't want you to know this, and don't want you to know that.
Well I know and we're an the lads don't.
That's the only thing.
So you would use  the carrying of weight on the gallops in training to see how fit a horse is?
Yeah.
Oh I know all, what they've all got.
I know, see er er  myself, I weigh all the lads myself, I've got all the weight of every man in my yard  in my book.
Governor comes in and says, what's the weight of so and so Jack?
Er, eight seven sir.
Well put him on so and so.
He knows what he's galloping, he knows within a few pounds what he wants.
Put him on so and so, and so and so on that, and change them about.
See, you have to know all your men's weight.
Mm mm.
And ride work, I mean work riders, you know.
Mm mm.
Work them, I don't say  we  don't wanna lead them out or  or anything like that, do all the work riders.
When the string of horses goes out for exercise  who takes  leads er, leads them out?
Because somebody goes up ahead don't they?
Rides ahead of them.
Well the head lad's, I'm in charge of them all.
If it's fifty or sixty going, I'm in charge of them.
So you would ride ahead of them?
Oh no.
I ra you ride at the back.
Oh at the back?
One of the lads go in front, or you have a travel head lad, you got the spare lads who ride a hack.
They may be in front leading for you.
Lead 
Mm.
you across the road and stop the traffic and all this.
Ah yes!
You always got someone on a hack to help you.
Oh yeah.
him and he goes out, I'm in charge once I get out sa out of the yard.
Till the governor comes, and then he's in charge till  till he's er  worked them all, and then he says 
Mm.
ride home.
And we, on going home, he talks all about the work.
Saying what they're in er  erm  erm, so look, and wa watch so and so very carefully Jack  I've got him in such and such a race.
Just see how he's working, you know?
He'll want, want me to keep my eye on them all the time what he, what he's got in mind, what's running, when he thinks they'll win races.
Mm mm.
D'ya see?
Oh yes you  it's a, it's a big responsibility.
You know, in a way.
But you don't get paid  you don't get paid for your  I didn't anyway, I, I'd, I, I never thought so.
Fifteen pound a week when I was at .
Live-in house.
It was very underpaid.
You know, today they get fifty pounds and hundreds, hundred pound a week, the lads get hundred pound a week now.
Do they?
Yeah!
Years ago  when you  wanted to get to the heath  from a stable that was maybe, the  Cambridge side of Newmarket
Yeah.
how would you get to the heath?
Walked them.
Walk all the way round..
Walk all the way round.
Well, round you see.
If you're over that side, you've gotta come on the heath  and come to what do I call them?
Well I've told you  come to the waterfalls and walk up inside them railings all the time.
That leads you right onto the south fields.
Mm.
Because at present you've got  what you told me were the horse walks  which are the tracks out here with 
Yes.
white rails round them  did you always have those rails?
No!
No.
We had to put up with the traffic.
So you
Had to take a chance.
We used to go through the high street years before motor cars come out.
When I come here there was no motor cars, they used to wa hor horses used to go through the high street.
Oh yes.
You'll see photographs of that everywhere.
Oh yes.
Er, that was nothing.
So what, one  group would go after another  all the way down the high street?
Yeah.
And go behind one another you see?
Mm.
But just steady the traffic.
You know, you had to put up with all that, you had to take your chances in them days.
But today, everything's made for you.
You go right the way round horse walks.
Mhm.
When 
So 
were these horse walks put in?
Oh, they've been here about a few years now.
Been a few year they've been, been about, must have been  er erm  twenty or thirty year now.
Mhm.
And they're purposely designed just for the horses 
Oh yeah.
aren't they?
Trai the trainers paid for them, you know.
Did they?
Paid for the roads being done up and everything you know.
Oh yes, it's  council don't do it, er, they have to, the Trainers' Association paid for that.
Cost a lot of money!
Oh yes, they've paid for th all the workmen coming to do them and everything.
Done once a year they are.
You know  swept and rolled and tarred and

Right.
No we get we get a lot of erm sort of similar questions I'm no I'm trying I'm trying to be it's only just me.
The company haven't asked me to do it it's just er erm just a personal thing.
Mhm.
Also make sure I'm doing the right thing as well.
Erm right purpose of the discussions, I don't call them interviews er because it's a self employed position and er you know we're not offering quote a job unquote.
Mhm.
Er business opportunity I suppose would be the better
Mhm.
er way of er describing it.
Erm but er unless I I may repeat one or two of the things I'd have said on the phone I'm bound to do that, er the three things that are gonna be decided here today really is you if you and I erm you've got inside information of course, er if you and I agree that er  is the is the platform for you to earn some good money.
Er secondly which environment er you feel comfortable with.
And I have to say that's a luxury that most recruiters don't have but whoever walks through this door I I you know providing all the other things jell erm I have the luxury of offering five companies in which er an individual can go into.
Whereas some er normal recruiting is one person one job and
That's it.
hard luck to the rest.
It's not quite that way.
Er where did as a matter of interest where did John I did I interview John or did I  
Yes you did it was er the advertisement I'd seen or very similar in the Scotsman newspaper and I must admit when he got all the information  I thought damn I should have  gone for that myself .
Okay fine.
Well here's your chance.
And one thing that that will generate when you have er erm er I don't think we've got any husband and wives but I think we've got one or two partner and friend or partner er relationships they usually get in competition with each other.
That that does us all the world of good.
Yes.
Quite competitive so yes I'd 
Okay.
agree with that.
Right now I've got a bit of background
Mhm.
obviously erm I've ju all I've got down here is local newspaper advertising five years which would have been enough er
Mhm.
for me to have er  I I tell you what I do get concerned about Lynda is somebody who can't spell their first name.
Oh god which is me what have I done?
Can I borrow that?
It's all right I'm only I'm being facetious there.
No you shouldn't it is an error.
How easily it's done though.
It's a laughing joke at work.
There was an advertisement that came up, Adults learning how to spell.
And all the guys at the back the T T S put my name down for it because they had great hilarity 
Oh really?
about my spelling so.
Er is that Lynda Jane?
Yep.
Oh that's the same two names as my daughter Lynda Jane.
Spelt the same too oh no they're not.
You've got a Y.
Mhm it's Welsh my spelling .
And she's got a Y in her Jayne strangely enough.
Right okay what I this will be the first time I've had a look at er a little bit more of your background so erm while I'm doing that, although you may have already inside information, I I guess you'd seen the brochure before had you?
Yeah I'd read the brochure.
Okay.
Erm but you may not have seen er 
No.
the range of products that we do.
Erm the folders are at the top
Mhm.
er there so you may or may not be familiar with those of course er with your er connection with John.
Erm have have a look through those I I'll while you're looking at those I'll still ask you erm er some questions
Certainly no problem.
and erm  particularly in relationship of course to your erm your advertising.
Remind me had John done advertising?
Erm no.
He'd actually been on the receiving end of recalling them.
Oh ha ha.
Well that's it.
Get friendly with the client.
Now you have okay so you have to give erm er you're in an employed status at the moment
Mhm yeah.
so you have to give four weeks.
Yep.
Er if you 
She's quite she's quite a stickler for that erm I've got 
Are they?
I've got holidays to take so she may allow me to take that as part of my resignation.
But I thought I'd be safe in putting that down.
Okay well you'll probably know erm that of course we can start people immediately if they were
Mhm.
but er we obviously recognize that if people have to resign and er from a salaried position.
What do you feel about going from employed to er commission only self employed?
Well I actually been on commission only before er Yellow Pages when I started with well a 
Oh right.
basic of about eight and a half of something
Mm.
and sort of within of me starting there they bought out a new contract which was commission only.
So the only they were giving you was a car and expenses.
So you know it was up to you to sort of prove yourself from from there.
Okay.
Erm I'm not bothered about being self employed.
In fact I'm actually allowing me to write my off and my expenses and
Yes sure there are 
doing things so 
there are advantages erm and quite honestly if erm er the way I put it is that salary company car and BUPA and all that sort of thing
Mhm.
is only commission in another form.
That's right and 
and they can take that away from you just as soon as 
Well exactly what happened to me erm
But can I just pick up on
Mhm.
nationality
Yep.
er Australian.
It doesn't sound too bad, not  too bad, too much now
erm unless your surname's Keating.
Erm a no problem with er work permits and things like that?
No.
You've got residential er
I've got dual nationality.
Okay fine.
Right.
We we've had one or two hiccups so I always ask about that.
Okay.
Right well obviously that those last five years have been the er the important ones for us.
Mhm.
Now you've got erm the  Press er  as a reference
Yes she's my direct boss.
Okay obviously you wouldn't want us to do anything about that until you resign I guess.
Exactly yes.
I'll put a I'll put a circle round the no and there that's for my own benefit.
Okay so you've given you've given us erm the same company as erm that mm that may present a problem with us.
Would you be able to get a get us another reference?
Probably the only thing is obviously I've been there a while now so any previous employment and the people that were there aren't there any longer.
Erm in fact  don't do Yellow Pages any more it's I B T
No no yes.
Erm so that's why I've put down the two.
I mean I can get obviously personal references
Yep.
or people I've dealt with
Okay.
Er I I don't think that's going to be a major problem with us.
Erm your reference probably is John  anyway.
Oh god 
Oh yeah what would what would he say?
All right.
Okay well I'll asterisk that for my own benefit as well the four weeks bit.
Erm yep.
Er the proven track record in the selling advertising that's fine.
Now we er er you I here once again I'm gonna repeat myself
Mhm.
erm possibly that I would have emphasized er the fact that we don't do quote fact to fact selling
Mhm.
of advertising
Mhm.
we are really er I'm preaching the company policy and also something I know that er works
Mhm.
is that we do make sure that people know everything on the phone so.
Erm I've circled, Have you qualified sales by telephone as I can't believe you haven't  
Well it depended er the reason I left that blank as I wondered companies take that meaning different things.
Such as is it a lead that's come in and been qualified by a sale.
Is it been a cold call and you've qualified it by getting an advertisement out there or is it qualified by actually getting the money in your hand.
Well I haven't done  the third one .
But I've done the other two.
Right no qualifying in in in er I will tell you what the  erm er sort of policy on that or opinion on that is that if you have got er a closure on the phone.
Mhm.
Now you must have at some time or other in advertising closed the deal on the phone.
Oh yeah mhm.
Well that's that's what we mean by that.
Right.
I have I would say that most of the people who answer yes who have been in say for instance home improvements
Mhm.
direct er double glazing and things like that, they will put yes.
Whereas we think
Yeah.
it's more towards the no.
Yes.
Because they cannot discuss the requirements on the phone.
Mhm.
In other words they can't tell price because they measure up and all things 
That's right.
like that.
So that's that's what that's er in fact I always qualify people on that answer even though it's it's right down the bottom here I say what do you what's your interpretation.
And I er I can't believe that you haven't er very presumptuous of me to put yes round your you know but you'd left it er so but I've no problem with that.
Three things that we do decide I've already said, whether you and I feel that this is a platform for you.
Certainly which environment which company erm and there are only five of the companies that the.
Area health authorities we're not looking for up here.
Mhm.
And when.
Yeah.
Most of those we can answer straight away.
You've got your four weeks thing there.
Mhm.
That could come forward.
Yep.
Erm I have no doubt in my own mind that you would be able to erm launch into this without any problem because of your experience.
So having got that first one out of the way
Mhm.
the last one we know is constricted by where you are at the moment.
Mhm.
If you can put away the fact that John has already er
Yeah.
introduced you may be er in some ways to  us, which would you prefer to be in.
Which which company if I was to give you a choice, and the luxury that most recruiters don't have.
To be honest it would be between the portfolios as you call them the the folders and erm probably that the golfing thing.
The reason I'd probably go for the estate agency is cos I deal with estate agencies in where I am.
Right okay.
So you've got a you've got a background 
So I feel a bit of comfort there.
You've got a history.
So okay then
I've got confidence.
But that's that's exactly why I ask that question if you're confident .
But again it's slightly different because their having what I can gather, I mean cos John's not discussed it very much and he's very much involved in
Sure.
in  his assignment done, is that everything else there the outside cover but everything else is up to you to make sure the inside is filled.
Absolutely.
Cos that's entirely different.
That because I've used those before not for golfing or anything like that but just as a general map of reference or
When you say those you mean the golf cards?
Yeah.
Erm and I've found them quite useful.
That that type of idea.
Right.
But probably because I'm comfortable I would say the estate agency.
Right.
Well er er erm the the whole point of about asking that sort of question is that er I in my own mind I know where I think
Yeah.
it might be a good idea.
But in the end er if I can put you somewhere where you're gonna be happy to work
Yeah get more out of me .
Er now we've got but we do have two products there of equal standing in terms of product er sorry of of erm salary potential
Mhm.
remuneration
Yeah.
earnings whatever you like to say money.
Mhm.
Erm now John's on folders but there is another product range and that's the er
This one.
yeah the postal wallets .
I found that quite intriguing cos I can remember getting these sent out to me by G A when I was moving house.
Well G A be based in Perth of course is er one of our major clients up here.
Mhm.
Er and once again they they they're all part of estates division and er you know they're as equally valua valuable to the er
Yeah yeah.
It would be a bit difficult to choose between either of them because they both present.
Erm I know some companies actually sell send the large ones out
Yes.
cos I've seen that as well and friends give me 
Well then 
but I had one of these.
Yes they're not really meant to be sent out
Yeah.
I have to say though first of all especially if they have the larger version
Mhm.
the er the bigger one the half A three, it erm they are meant really to be targeted for people coming through that they can hand information to.
That's of course exactly why we introduced the er postal wallets.
Well thing is people are moving to an area they may be given some information by their company but
Mhm.
unless you do your research you don't know anything about it.
That's right.
They're both excellent.
Both
Okay well how do you let me ask how you feel.
Because we know the the connection with John.
John's on folders I mean would you feel comfortable in working in the same group as him?
You'd still be in estates division
Yeah.
but
Wouldn't particularly bother me because erm I've always managed to distract my professional and my personal career.
The thing is you said it would probably make us quite competitive toward each other you know.
Yes.
If you if you go out for the kitchen you know or whatever it is
Okay.
but
Erm
No personal grievances or anything.
All right.
No no no I it just it just sometimes er you know all right.
Because erm there is a sort of competition between the two products
Mhm mhm.
you know obviously.
Erm but in the end it's all estates division anyway.
Yeah.
Okay.
I mean would you would you shall we home in on the folders?
Er
Or the postal wallets.
Postal wallets I don't know from experience but I'm told it's supposed to be easier.
That's a good phrase in  advertising .
Everything's easy when you've never done it before.
No yeah I I mean I've sold I've sold advertising on the medical practice booklets but er 
Aha aha.
To be honest both are going to a certain type of market
Mhm.
Erm
They're both doing the same
Yeah
in fact they're both doing the same in terms of 
One is somebody's walking through the door to pick up information
Yep.
and one is being sent out in a way 
Yeah.
The other major difference of course we'll print may be three thousand of the folders but thirty five thousand of the er others 
That's what I was thinking.
Obviously your distribution will be much greater.
Yes er what what er the pitch I think in fact I've heard them say this er because I've been out with two of the top fliers up here
Mhm?
erm is that er in the case of the postal wallet you're in effect presenting the prospective house buyer with their business card every time you 
Mhm 
send them out.
So you could send out a dozen business cards now
Mhm.
you couldn't pay anybody
Mhm.
to stand at the door of the rec of an estate agent
That's right.
erm you couldn't pay them ten pound a week
Mhm.
and hand out a business car  
And if they were doing their own mailing themselves er mailshot, they'd be lucky to get between one and two percent reply.
Yeah right.
Whereas that is dedicated market.
Let's have a look er this is the information pack that you take away.
Well once again you may have seen all this before.
No.
Well John's kept this to himself.
Oh right.
Get the papers away.
Now in terms of the division
Mhm.
erm they both are f er form estates division.
However more recently they they started to do things sort of separately in including a separate training.
Right.
Now at one time I used to say here you are here are the two products when you go on the training course it'll be decided at the end of the training course which product you'll go on.
Mhm.
And it wasn't arbitrary it was where we needed somebody at that time.
Now that's changed slightly on the basis that er we will tell people before they go now.
In other words we have selected the company in which they work.
It's postal or folders.
Mhm.
But there wouldn't be any point in me going through both sets
No.
if we're just gonna be talking about
Yeah.
Okay.
However there is one thing that could hiccup there.
Just when you say however or but it means there's gonna be a problem.
Is that if we took you on if we if we agreed that it my postal wallets might be a good idea for you and you were to delay coming into the er into the company by a week, it could change which company you go into.
Yeah.
But in February that even that's changing
where there gonna be a training course for each of these products every week.
So I suppose I'm introducing something that would only exist if you started next week.
Yeah.
Which we know you can't.
But I still have to decide today where to put you or where we where you feel comfortable.
Postal wallets or folders.
Difficult.
Well I I know I'm putting you under a bit of pressure here on the basis that erm it's lovely to be able to have a choice.
Mhm.
Now if I was to say erm er if I would have no doubt of course if if I didn't know about your connection with John.
If I put that aside I would say let's put you on erm postal wallets.
Mhm.
That does appeal to me because it's nothing you're not particularly competing to something like Yellow Pages or anything like that.
It's something entirely on its on.
Yeah it is in that sense I suppose it can't be almost unique.
It is in that sense and you need product because I don't think we have any competition on this at all.
We do on the folders albeit
The first thing people are gonna say is, Well I've not seen one so you send one out to them.
Yes.
And there's no doubt about it.
I've had one of these through the post myself and read it.
Mhm.
And looked at the advertising out of curiosity to see who would advertise.
Well at some time or other it sticks.
Yeah.
Now these when they're received through the post of course not necessarily retained
Mhm.
Put aside.
But it's it's they're put aside and they're still used as a reference I understand.
But it's repetitive.
Mhm.
That you'll get er a number of er.
There is another spin off for the estate agent of course 
Mhm?
that if this comes through the post, I'll give you an example.
I've just put my house on the market in York I've chosen the  if erm that's that's you know the whole taking the whole scene into consideration, but if I was in Bournemouth for instance and buying a house in York and I said I phone three or four estates agents and said, Look please send me information through the post.
And the information came in that Yes and you you feel much more confident
Yeah.
and then you start of cou then you say right erm er let's keep hold of this information so these are retained and there's also a benefit to the estate agent, and there's the G A one which of course is er by coincidence is the Aberdeen one but of course we er you know we have them all around the country.
Shall we home in on these?
Mhm yeah.
Yes?
Definitely.
I think so.
You get to take this away with you.
Let's have a look at the Aberdeen cos I did work on the Aberdeen 
Oh did you?
What's that a erm a paper 
Paper the  pages.
Yeah.
Right.
Now erm you will already know and I certainly would've told you on the phone that er you are not responsible for setting the assignments up.
You don't go round knocking on doors at the estate agent.
Mhm.
Er we have a marketing group that er already takes care of that.
Mhm.
Erm and when the assignment er that you are sent or when the assignment comes to the top of the pile they look around the er organization and say who is the most suitably er geographically er situated and who is the most available who is gonna be available.
Mhm.
You and the management will agree that you're coming to the end of that assignment and you get you get a new one.
As you know it's con it's continuity of assignment.
And er some of the things that er all assignment details are sent to the to the estate agent not to home.
Right so so no mail in connection with the assignment is sent to your home it's always sent to the er.
And when you arrive at the er estate agent there there is an envelope with all different sort of information in t in there.
Erm that is I'm gonna have to take that back to the company because that's a prime example of what you don't put in.
I knew there was something wrong as soon as I saw
Of course yeah.
Yeah and when I it's gonna be nice to be able to send take that back
provided all all of them have got that one in.
Oi oi oi.
Right let's have a look and see if we can  yeah I can I can see that's 
Yes.
all right.
That means that that pack is null and void there.
Erm that's inside plus other information about the assignment er waiting for you.
And you give that sort of thing to the estate agent.
Now we've been doing these or working with estate agents for twenty years.
We publish this newspaper here the estate agents
Mhm.
and news so we're not exactly strangers.
And they'll they'll anybody new in the estate agent in sta in staff terms they'll let them look at that and say well that's what Lynda  's here er sorry I beg your pardon
Yeah Lynda  's here here for.
And er there will also be details about er the targets that we set for that particular project.
And that has been determined by our marketing executive who has signed up the estate agent.
This is what we look at in terms of er target of erm the er wallets we're going to print and that is determined, not quite sure what the measurement is for estate agent it's something to er to do combination of the number of peop er number of mailings they've done in the last er twelve months and also the number of houses they have on their their books.
I think tho those are the measurements.
Yeah.
And that's put .
Now those that those are the numbers that we guarantee to print.
Now 
Right.
that doesn't mean to say that we will only print those
Mhm.
it means that that's the minimum.
Now internally, internally within , that automatically generates a target that we want from that assignment.
Mhm.
And there's the target for go to go for.
It's not necessarily erm a target if you don't get it hard luck er that's the end of your s your time with us, it's just a target that we would like we know that we're gonna clear all our costs out of that first year.
But there is erm a cut off point where we know we have covered that.
Mhm.
So if you're successful in achieving the full target with a full postal wallet then we everybody's happy and you've earned a lot of money.
Now we have erm in fact this is an exception.
This is the erm er we start bonus payments at four thousand pound on postal wallets
Mhm.
the others start at four and a half.
But it's that figure there that I think we need to concentrate on as far as good bonuses are concerned.
Because every erm slot above that all revenue above that we will pay an extra fifteen percent.
We pay all those at proof stage.
Right.
Now that's that can be sometimes erm eight to ten weeks after the assignment's finished.
Mhm.
We pay them at proof stage because that's the second time we get any money from the client.
Right.
Let's have a look at this year's price list er it says nineteen ninety three but I say it's carried on as far as we know er there aren't any at the moment increases.
And if er when you arrive on an assignment every assignment has a new one of these and in fact it's a blank.
All right.
All right?
Mhm.
It gives the position numbers the sizes erm and the price.
So if you can line these prices up you'll see that the top is always gonna be people always read from the top down.
And there's a very important  and most people can't understand why we could possibly sell the flap until of course you realize that that's taken off
Oh yeah.
and that drops down.
And when anything drops down like that the eyes are drawn straight to it.
And that's why it is a prime slot as well.
But if you look down here, if somebody wanted to buy the the flap inside and out they would pay twelve hundred pound.
So that would be the most expensive one.
Right yeah.
But in in in fact I think you'll find that most people buy one or the other or even  
yeah.
Mhm.
Okay?
Mhm.
You are allowed an immediate ten percent discount if you want on this product but
Mhm.
We have people sales people that are always discounting but er well when I say we the world has.
But you give mon you give your own money away.
It might not be so tempted on this again.
But er it's there.
It could be towards the end of your assignment you want to fin wrap it up get one la one last slot and you say, Yeah you can have a ten percent.
Mhm.
Here's an example.
If you sold just one to eight on a flap that would be a tar er that would be a total revenue of six thousand pound.
That's what you would earn with bonuses.
Mhm.
It's not a bad deal is it?
And how long does each assignment usually take?
Well we have in our contract two to three weeks.
Fifteen working days.
That's our contract with the estate agent.
Mhm.
And quite honestly they get a bit edgy if you stay overstay your mark so.
Yeah.
We're talking fifteen working days.
Now that can be achieved of course may be quicker.
Mhm.
We hope hope it is because if you take three weeks to do that it dilutes
Mhm.
But if you do the whole thing and I'm
Yeah.
you know as I say I've not worked in this division but I I know that these have been fully sold, that's the sort of money and once again that has to be done in three weeks.
So we're not far off our nine hundred pound a week.
No.
Not far off we are right on it.
That's what we're looking for people to earn.
Er erm John's in his early  stage and anybody that needs start .
We've just had somebody go out and sell four and a half thousand pound in one week
Mhm.
on his first assignment in his first week out there.
And he didn't have a background in selling advertising space.
There's some people just either strike lucky or they're good.
I don't think you can be that lucky
Mm.
I think you have to have something as well.
Okay?
Yeah.
So I'll leave that with you.
We will pay, once again you may be privy to have seen this other .
We will pay your commissions with pleasure providing you do one or two things for us.
Mhm.
Er I will have explained er er I certainly would've explained on the phone that er part of the contract requires them to give us a list of prospective advertisers.
Right.
It really warms it up.
Now one of the things that it must be very tempting to do is say, Yippee I've got my list and go dashing in and phone everybody in sight
Mhm.
without any background information on the er sell that has to be qualified.
Yeah.
If I was to er ask you to er just for the next ten minutes to start listing out the advertisers that you think might go into these, my guess is you'd only get twenty five percent
Mhm.
of the categories that and that's just some of them.
Yeah.
And you wouldn't think of most of those.
And that's because we tend to prejudge who will or will not go in.
Yellow Pages everybody gets a free entry so there's already a warm up situation.
Mhm.
Er free lineage anyway.
No you see that's debatable because you actually charge business line rates so your entry's not free.
Oh okay so we're paying what you're saying is 
Yes so you're paying it in directly but people don't think that way.
No and you're not encouraged yeah not encouraged to point that out to them anyway.
Okay so that list, in fact that's what it looks like when it comes into us.
All right.
I'm sorry  looks like that but er
Yeah.
and filled out.
Now those can rep be er somewhere between mediocre and excellent.
Mhm.
Depends on how much of a relationship they've got.
It depends on how seriously they're taking their product.
And that's why it's important to sit down and qualify it.
Say, well come on you've only put ten names down there.
If it means business for them I should think they should want to do more .
They should.
If they've got any sense at all they should be I mean they're getting it for free except for the telephone calls you might use
Mhm.
and some cups of coffee or whatever.
Erm you'd have thought that they would have taken the trouble to erm you know to do some bit of arm twisting.
Yep.
Some of them do of course.
Funny handshakes and whatever.
But to get why when er why we want to pay your commission and er it it's because we are looking for three pieces of paper
Mhm.
or documentation.
This is erm just to demonstrate that it's the same contract across all of our six companies.
Mhm.
Unless you're colour blind you'll see that they are different colours.
Yeah.
In fact that's the one for this company.
Read upside down I can't  Publications looks after postal wallets.
Mhm.
And I know I'm going to reinforce how important it is to tell people all this up front before you go round.
Cos one two two or three things associated with this contract if you don't if you surprise them with erm with them face to face and you don't tell them on the phone they'll blow you out.
Yeah.
They'll use it as an excuse.
And I'll home in oh once again erm sorry I'll I'll repeat to you but I'll I'll reinforce that
Yeah.
all this is demonstrated in much more er detail on the course.
And if you've got a partner that's doing it as well then you've got the best of both worlds.
But if you don't tell them that first of all you want a contract.
Mhm.
If you don't tell them that you'll want a deposit cheque of thirty five percent of the first year's payment depending on what you charge them 
Yeah.
for the ad.
If you don't tell them that you need to pick that up and if you don't tell them that you need a banker's order to take the rest of the payments out
Mhm.
they'll they'll say, Just a minute Lynda you didn't tell me that 
Yeah I know you're covering yourself.
One beauty of it is now with Yellow Pages for them being able to pay things monthly, they're used to giving signing contracts for things like that.
So some them could be pre-educated anyway.
Oh right.
And tend to assume I have to do this anyway.
Yes.
There  
I must admit I've never I didn't have any surprise that I was I wanted a a deposit cheque.
No.
A lot of 
There's som 
people don't like asking for that though.
Yeah.
But if you ask for it face to face they'll blo they'll say well no I don't do you didn't say that.
Mhm.
If you had told me that you wouldn't be here.
That's the that's the reply you can get.
Mhm yeah.
We also point out to them of course that the second er portion of the first year's payment is taken out through banker's order.
That introduces the banker's order
Mhm.
idea.
And the sales pitch of course is that you don't take the second year's payment until a year later.
Mhm.
Some people still think that they've got to pay for the whole 
Yeah.
two years up front.
Now er that's that generates two of the three documents that the cheque and er the important thing er about the cheque of course is that if it's two signatories, and a lot of companies of course require that, we need two signatories on the banker's order.
And you can't go you needn't go round until they're both together.
Mhm.
Cos if you left that with the first signatory you'd never see it again.
Yeah.
They use it as an excuse.
Mhm.
Er the other er er poi er piece of paper we want of course is copy.
Now I'm preaching to the converted here in terms of you you'll appreciate we need copy.
Just to show you once again all colour coded.
Mhm.
All right.
Very simple document.
Most of our advertisers have already been in some form of advertising before.
And we're happy we once again say on the phone, Well what I want tomorrow is a deposit cheque, contract, bankers order and if you've got copy available I'll take that a juggle it around as you want.
Right.
This is the document that we send in with any copy.
Mhm.
If they've never advertised before and it is a rare occasion but it does happen, we we put our own thoughts down there we discuss that with them.
Right.
Do we actually draw them up?
Or do the copy department deal with it the copy department ?
No we've got we've got twenty or thirty girls back there hammer and tongs.
We've got six months work just wai you know just going through the process at the moment.
Mhm.
It's amazing.
We're taking people on in the copy group and we've got twenty years' worth of adverts.
Mhm.
Plenty to show people.
Yeah.
But they will show you on the training course how they like that drawn out at the bottom.
Yeah.
Compliment slip and letter heading you probably used to ask for ask er asking for.
If that's not part of the three not part of the deal that you send in that will not cause a major problem.
They'll just say well it will help if you can go back and get one all right.
Especially if they've got a logo or something it's a good way to sort of ask for it.
Yeah.
Imagine having to lift that from a 
Yeah.
photocopy you'd have more jagged edges  
It doesn't come out yeah.
So you you are aware of that.
Do you charge for adverti for actual copy?
Copy?
No we wouldn't it's all paid for in there.
The most important one.
Once again the old colour code comes into operation.
There's the there's the colour that  Publications  wants.
And I've written one out there er just to give you an example.
Mhm.
And er hopefully John's making plenty of these out as well.
Every sales consultant, as we call them now not reps, erm has his or her own unique number.
Mhm.
Each er assignment has a unique number.
You just have to list out the erm adverts, position, advertiser, estate agent, town.
Er what I've just described is a complete deal so that 
Mhm.
is ticked down there and I'm not aware of what companies have special arrangements on estates.
But I was on medical and BUPA hospitals had special arrangements where they didn't have to have a cheque and where didn't have to have a banker's order.
Right.
What they did have to have was er an official company or order
I was going to say 
for two years' advertising.
Right.
Bonuses are paid at proof stage.
Every two months a list of ass er the numbers er of assignments that have been proofed comes round to the sales execs and that's when they can claim their bonuses.
But they have to be claimed and they're not paid automatically.
Right so you're given a date on which you should claim them by do you?
Yeah well as soon as that comes out on the list you can put in your claim the next
Right.
week.
However a lot of people do leave them there.
It's it's you don't forfeit them, it's safe, but they accumula er they they have a cumulative effect and you pay tax or what
You have to decide whether it's safer in your bank or ours
Yeah.
in terms of spending.
Spending.
A ninety day account you can't get access  to .
Well yeah that's it.
In effect we're we're erm er we're safeguarding it for you if you want to.
But it's entirely up to you.
It's your money so
Yeah.
That's it.
Any questions so far?
Not really it's quite self explanatory because I was wondering where you got the business and that from.
Whether it was just totally cold calling or it's referrals or whatever.
No.
I what you'll find of course that a lot of assignments on estates now are resales.
Mhm.
So you should be halfway through your battle if you're given an assignment erm that that is a resale
Mhm.
then you have all those already
Mhm.
Within the first  of contact .
all those to go for .
Those are the first ones you contact but you still have to sit down with one of the estate agents and say, Well look what sort of business do you give them?
You know have you given have you been able to give business to these people because if you have that'll help me I understand
Oh yeah.
I happen to understand mister advertising client that er you and the estate agent have been working very well together.
Mhm.
Yeah it's been great.
And you'll get people of course who say it didn't work.
Mhm.
Oh regardless you'll get people saying that.
But they you'll also get a list a computerized list of these advertisers and the name to whom we sold
Mhm.
two years previously.
Right.
So you don't go in you don't go in and say, Well you've you've advertised before who do I speak to?
Mhm.
You you get Tim  's name if that's the guy on the computerized list and say that's who our contact was
Yes cos that's easy to round if there's only  oh sorry that's the last name of contact we had .
Absolutely.
We dealt with him two years ago and we'd like to speak and and we're we're looking for a repeat
Yeah.
Okay?
Mhm.
Good.
So can we calculate now when you can start?
Right er
On the basis that er if if you've seen enough here now Lynda to to be persuaded, and I hope we have, persuaded you that you'd like to come in with us then you will be resigning at some time I guess.
I like advertising with a product I believe in so
Okay.
All right?
I'm halfway there.
You're there.
And I have to say it must be a benefit to have a partner who's also involved.
Mhm.
Oh yeah.
You can you can really help each other out.
I've seen even two consultants who male consultants who live either part of erm er in Fife and one over here.
They talk to each other and say, Well look I've got I've got this guy how did you approach that?
It really in fact they do that more I think in estates than they do the other
Mhm.
And if you're erm do you reside at the same address?
Yeah.
That's all right.
See how delicate  I'm going to be .
Erm then that has to be a help.
Yep.
You've got erm your domestic
I was going to say as long as you don't both have two days  at the same time .
Well yes.
Well that actually might help.
If you had a down day the other one would say well okay I  let's go  let's go and  
Well this is it cos sales 
drown our sorrows .
Well you're either sort of scraping off the ceiling cos you're as high as a kite
Yes.
or you're almost suicidal.
Yes.
It's one extreme or the other.
So 
Yeah I'm sure it is.
Right so are we working four weeks from this week?
Erm no it's more likely to be a calendar month that she works on and fortunately February has four weeks in it this year for where our pay day is so I would be putting it in sort of like Feb first.
So so March the first is about the time?
Yeah.
Okay.
Now if that obviously we'd be delighted if you
Possibly before then but if I work on that then I can advise you
Right.
of any changes.
Yeah bring bring it forward if you delay it they get a bit edgy.
Now March the first is a Tuesday.
Mhm.
The course starts on a Monday.
Right.
So can we say February the twenty eighth.
Mhm yeah.
That's about that's gonna be about it.
Yeah it should be.
There especially if you if you say well I'll take a day's holiday.
Yeah.
Right?
Well what can they do about it.
So February the twenty eighth.
this piece of paper.
It's a bit big for where it should be.
I know that has to be  with that.
Now this is erm until the new documentation comes out this is this applies to er.
At one time we used to start the training courses on on both wallets and folders on a Tuesday.
Right.
It is now on Monday.
So we're gonna put Monday twenty eight two ninety four today being the twenty fifth.
On the Friday before which is the oh it will be the twenty fifth won't it?
Mhm.
I would like you if you can read all there is there John er John's had the same documentation but it might be slightly different.
And that is  okay er da de da de da  got to be changed but we it's because you're going on wallets.
Is the training course the same thing as what John was on in as much he had to get through the training course to get a position?
Yes.
No problem for you.
Yes I'm sorry that I'm having to scribe all this out but er the new documentation they've changed the erm  that's a Monday  sorry about this
That's okay.
But I don't want any confusion it it is not the same as when John joined us.
And the doc new documentation just wasn't quite available for me to bring with me.
That's three that's da de da de da okay on the follow oh dear or dear me  get writer's cramp at this rate .
Thursday Friday  Now  just check  put the new piece of paper yes  Publications   Okay I'm just er bringing this up to date so Monday Tuesday Wednesday evenings in fact you need er sorry Sunday Monday and Tuesday okay.
I think that's more or less it.
Sorry I've had to juggle that we've got some new documentation just being prepared for that but that's being er.
If you can read this end to end
Mhm.
Oh this does seem a bit silly but that's Monday to Wednesday now and that is Thursday and Friday.
Will you understand what those abbreviations 
Yes yes.
are?
Good I'm glad I've got a an intelligent person.
And that's where you'll be.
In fact that is now Sunday departing Wednesday.
Okay?
Mhm.
Good.
And the Parkwater is there.
Right.
Okay?
If you read that through I will be grateful.
And there's one other thing that  expense form which I think is here good.
This just lets you know that we will pay you travel costs to and from 
Mhm.
Okay?
When you go out on territory which you do on the on the Thursday and Friday
Yeah.
with somebody
Mhm.
it may be that you have to stay away.
Right okay.
All right?
Wherever possible they try not to have that but you may have to stay away.
Mhm.
We will pay your accommodation and a and a meal
Mhm.
to the value of thirty pound.
If you do stay away I can tell you the trainer will know where you can get a deal like that.
Yeah.
Okay?
No problem.
You sign to say that you understand that.
If you stayed in a nice hotel for a hundred quid a night
I'm afraid you will only get thirty.
Mm.
I'm going to put the A on it this time.
And today's date's the twenty fifth.
Now if you don't my me asking you've taken John's surname I guess have you or 
No.
is that just.
Oh I beg your pardon.
Sorry.
Is that a coincidence or
What?
You've both got the same surname yes?
No he's got  I'm 
Oh I beg your pardon.
You know I
There we go.
Yes  I suppose it sounded the same to me.
Oh that's sorry that's your copy.
Right okay.
Now that's that's yours.
Yep.
Now did you want to take this as well because normally we give the whole pack away
Yeah I wouldn't mind cos a lot of 
Yeah go on then.
the time I'm not seeing him.
Yeah sure.
Now I've got application form, expenses, my notes and I'll just write up there estates twenty eight two oh I must put wallets down here.
Estate W twenty eight two.
So how many people are you expecting to recruit today then?
Oh I should say four or five but across the different companies.
Mhm.
I'm one.
Yeah.
This isn't fair.
They're all  
It's not fair.
If I'd have said, By the way at the end of this I have to take your photograph it would've put you off.
I would've walked out I think.
Okay.
Well John knows you have to have that.
You can smile.
He never told me this.
Didn't he?
Horror.
Horror.
Okay.
Right erm good that's tidied everything up then.
Mhm.
Thanks very much for coming over.

Right okay log on to the network, get into Microfit, call up Q M four FIT and say data  last of the  finished testing for structural change and then we'll move on to and diagnostics 
person is it?
The windows  a bit 
A little bit
coming straight at me 
.
Thanks very much
It's not working, is that right?
sometimes it gets overloaded, when everybody accesses the same
Oh right.
data file  sorry but I'm using  windows
Oh I beg your pardon.
Right, if you er if you get access to data erm go into the data processing environment, log to the data, right so log T C I M P can you remember this as textile data, this is textile consumption in the U S, right and we are explaining it in terms of consumer income and the relative price of textiles 
What are we doing?
I've got this far
Right okay can you go into the, just log the data    okay last week we were looking at test for structural change and we said that the Chow test is the most commonly used test for structural change  in actual fact Chow developed two tests erm, the parameter constancy, I E structural change,fir the first one is where you remember what the, the principle behind the Chow test that you split the whole sample into two sub periods, right and you see whether the, some of the res residual sum of squares from each sub sample, right, is significantly different from the residual sum of squares from a single estimation over the who whole sample period, right  if they are significantly different that suggests that the parameters that are estimated over the full er sample period, right, aren't as good estimates as the unrestricted estimates when we are allowing two different sets of parameters just to be estimated.
Right, what  what we'll do is I mean we can confuse the Chow test looking at the residual sum of squares er from each of these sums as the regressions on sub samples, comparing them with the residual sum of squares on a regressionary of the whole sample and the computer will actually do it for us.
Right, so it's one I want to, I didn't get time to do last week was to tell you where you specify that you want to perform a Chow test, right, and the computer will generate both of  both of Chow's tests with  one, the first one is where we've got enough observations in each sub sample, right, to estimate the regression, right, however, you may, you may detect and figure there is some structural change right at the end of your er sample of observations or alternatively right at the beginning.
Now in those cases we can't use the normal Chow tests we've got more parameters to estimate than we have observations, right, as a result Chow developed a second test, right, from structural change where we don't need er erm to estimate essentially the regression in the sub sample which has got very few obser observations but in that Chow, that Chow second test is often called a test of predicted failure, right, Microfit will  calculate both of those tests  and bear in mind I mean that we're spending a lot of time on er parameter constancy, we must bear in mind that parameter constancy is vitally important if we are going to make these inferences possible  be about policy making on the basis of our estimates.
Now if our estimates, say for the marginal  to consume or the incoming elasticity of demand, right if our estimates are based on a regression in which the real or the underlying marginal propensity to consume or income elasticity demand is varying from plus four to minus two, you know, is our point test  generate from, from regression analysis they are going to be completely meaningless.
We want to have some degree of confidence in that er the parameters that we estimate right have remained relatively constant over our sample period.
If they haven't remained constant over our sampling period, right, then there's no point in making our sample predictions, alright, we've got to have at least the confidence that our model is re relatively stable over our small sample, right, in order to make any sort of predictions about the behaviour of the dependent variable that we are looking at and the parameter of interest  out of sample  more often than not when we have parameter instability that doesn't always signal a change in government policy, it often signals the fact that you've got a very poor model, a model er is mis-specified and so if we detect a structural change in our model, we first of all try and explain why it may come about
was there a major change in government policy, why was, why did consumer behaviour change at this period, right, if we don't have any erm er justification for changing behaviour it probably means that our original model is mis-specified we've got the wrong variables explaining erm the variable of interest on dependent variable.
So parameter constancy is a necessary condition, right, for good applied incrementic work, if you don't have parameter constancy, look at another model basically, right.
Right so what we'll do is I'll show you how we can compute Chow tests in Microfit if you come out of the data processing environment type Q erm and move to the action menu I guess  do that linear regression.
Ah yes we will yeah, thanks very much.
Yeah well sorry if you come out of the action menu, you will need to create the constant so you press the escape key erm then move back to er the process blot edit save option.
Right that will take you back to the data processing menu, then you, then you just create a constant  call it whatever you like.
Now once you've created a constant go into the er estimated test forecast option in the action menu, right specify your equation L N T C space L N I space L N P a constant whatever you called it, right then press the end key.
Now when it asks you for the sample statement, ah done it, right before, it will ask you for the sample statement er over what period would you like to estimate this equation, right instead of pressing the return key which gives you the default, right, if you specify nineteen twenty three to nineteen forty  sorry just a  a dash between it like that nineteen twenty three space nineteen forty  okay it asks you for the number of observations to be used in the structural stability tests, right, erm if you er press the default er if you press the return key then it should give you the maximum number available right five observations in this case right and then it will perform the  regression over the entire sample period, those will be the results you obtain, right, it will also er present Chow erm test statistics.
Right so if you go er into  squared and estimate the equation, right, it has actually estimated over the full sample period  has it, no it hasn't  no alright it hasn't estimated so that's an equation estimated over the first sum, first sub sample, right, if you press the return key again  right  right, at the bottom in  the table of diagnostic tests you'll see Chow's predictive failure test, right and also erm the Chow test.
Right so there, the er Chow tests statistic F, right, is Chow's first, first test  right and er E is Chow's second test which is often called predictive failure.
Now if you look at the test statistics there  there are two versions of test statistics, one is an asymptotic version, right, assuming that we've got an incredibly large sample and one is the small sample, that's the, that's the L M version.
Now we've got the small sample version which is an F distribution.
Now what I recommend is that you always use the F version of any of these diagnostic test statistics and we can go on to look at the others erm in a moment.
Always use the F statistics unless there are circumstances in which you can't, right if the computer doesn't generate an F statistic, then you will just have to use the L M version.
The reason why it's better to use the F statistic, is that the F statistic has much greater power, right, on the small samples.
Both statistics are equally powerful in large samples but by and large you will always be using a small sample, so use the test statistic which is designed for small sample work, that's the F statistic.
Right, what I want to do now is just hand out, before you press any other keys, sort of hand out some  some sheets on er critical values.
The Microfit does help by and large by computing er the probability value of it, all the critical values which er are testically significant are different from zero.
Ho however that won't be the case for all erm computer programs we use, right, as a result we will need to know how to use er T tables  tables and  tables.
Hopefully, you are all erm familiar with these but just in case you are not  right, let's just er run through them.
Could you look at the distribution of T  okay.
Let's just say that we are forming a T test on an estimated coefficient and we want to know whether T ratio will be generated on the computer is significantly different from zero.
Now let's say that we've got a sample of erm thirty observations  right.
Now we want to know and say we generate a statistic of two point five a T ratio of two point five.
Is that significantly different from zero  right, well you just go down  the right hand column in degrees of freedom until we reach thirty.
Actual fact degrees of freedom is N minus K.
Right N is the number of the sample and K is the number of parameters that you've estimated in your model.
Right, so say that we have thirty, three observations, right we've got three parameters in this particular model, right, therefore degrees of freedom will be thirty, right, and we've jusk the critical values run across the rows alright.
Now the more certain that we want to be about a particular inference, right, the smaller is the significance level.
Right, so if we want to be er ninety percent certain about inference that corresponds with ten percent significance level and our critical value there is one point seven zero.
Right so if we had a test statistic greater than one point seven zero on a T ratio.
One point seven zero then we could refute the null hypothesis.
Right, the coefficient was zero.
As we increase our confidence, right, so if we are ninety five percent confident we are now looking at the five percent significance level T rat er the critical value rate rises to two point zero point two and if you want to be even more confident, to be ninety nine percent confident about our inference, you look at the one percent level, right, and that has a T ratio of two point seven five.
Right so if we had a T ratio of two point five, right, we could reject the null hypothesis of the five percent level but we wouldn't be able to reject the null hypothesis at the one percent level.
This is a very common problem in er  statistical inference and th or which  which significance level do we choose?
And there's no right and wrong answer to that.
You mention the prevention of the equal user five and ten percent level, right, but bear in mind that the more confident you want to, to be about inference I E the smaller the significance level, right, the, the lower is the power of the test.
This is why we don't test at the ninety nine point nine nine nine nine nine percent confidence level because the higher you'll, the smaller the probability making a type one error  essentially er  is significance level, right the larger the probability will make a type two error, right, a type two error denotes the power of the test.
Right, so normally we, you know, we want to be reasonably confident, right, so we want to have a reasonably small significance level  we don't want that significance level to be too small, otherwise the power of the test will diminish very rapidly   so we normally use the ten or the five percent, five percent level and if you just look at the er the five percent column, right, overall realistic sample sizes, right, from a hundred and twenty down to, to about twenty, I, those T ratios were the critical value they are all about two and that's why we say you can have a T ratio of about greater than two, then you can be at least ninety five percent confident about your inference.
Right, they don't change much as a result of the degrees of freedom er adjustment  okay with er  squared distribution yes, sort of different distribution but we interpret the tables in exactly the same way so if you just have a look on your screen erm, there's an L M version of the serial correlation test, right, and that has a  squared distribution one  right and the test statistic we obtain on your screens is calculated in two point eight eight, no two point zero eight.
Alright, is that significantly different from zero or you could go to a pie squared tables, look at the degrees of freedom, which is one, right.
At the five percent level the critical value cup of  squared is three point eight.
Right, so if we had a test statistic greater than three point eight it would reject our null hypothesis.
Right, in this particular case it is of no serial correlation is our null hypothesis.
Right so  again large test statistics whether they're Ts Fs or kie squares.
Larger dis large test statistics mean rejection of the goal  right erm there's no simple rule of thumb with kie squared you just have to look at the erm actual tables to find out what the critical values are.
However, latest th er Microfit not only gives you the test statistic but gives you erm the significance level, probability value er which erm that test statistic is significantly different from zero  right so if we are looking at that serial correlation test statistic of two point zero eight right we would accept the null hypothesis of er no serial correlation, right, or wouldn't be able to reject it strictly.
Wouldn't be able to reject the null of no serial correlation, right, until we reach fifteen percent significance level.
So if our, if you wanted to be eighty five percent confident about our inferences, right, we would reject that null hypotheses of no serial correlation, right, if we wanted to be ninety five percent confident about our inferences we would accept the null point of no serial correlation in tha in that case.
Okay erm,if we just turn over the sheet look at distribution of er of the F statistic.
In the F test we have two measures of the degrees of freedom, right, you need to have the degrees of freedom in the numerator N one and in denominator N two.
Right, the degrees of freedom  in the numerator just denote the number of restrictions that you are actually making the test.
Right so if you look at erm  the Chow test at the bottom of your screens, right the F test, right is an F three in seventeen test.
Three in the numerator denotes that we are making three restrictions   to be restricting our parameters of three parameters in this particular model, constant, coefficient on, log of prices and log of  you are restricting those er at a zero  when we estimate over the entire, over the ent the entire sample  okay and yeah
Do you have to say an N two  would you round up or round down to be sure?
Then you just er interpolate so erm if you are looking at an F one fifty test this, which we've got tables here that give F one thirty and F one forty, oh sorry F one forty and F one sixty just interpolate so the critical value would be nought point nought five, sorry, four point nought five, right, so you just average the difference there.
Right  so if we're erm want to compare an F statistic to see whether it's significant, right, you just go if it's a F three seventeen
as in this case we go down the three column, the three is a  in the numerator N one, right, till we reach seventeen, right, and now test to see if it's three point two  right, so if we
our Chow test here indicates strongly that we have structural change because we've got a test statistic of twenty two, right, far away, different from three point two our critical value.
When you are actually sort of writing er, say if you are, when you are doing your project or doing your  work  it's not just sufficient to say always T ratio is greater than two, therefore, it's statistically significant, you must calculate the er correct critical value you use, right, for th for each T ratio and also if you are looking at any diagnostics or looking at the significance of the regression which is an F statistic  right you must give the five percent or ten percent whichever you choose.
You must give the exact critical values, right, if those critical values that you are using to compare with the regressionally significant whether you have serial correlation or not erm so they're very very important and they ought to be included erm because otherwise we don't know whether a test statistic is er statistically significant or not.
Right okay so when you're performing test for structural change, right, if you just erm go through the simple estimation routine as we've done  the way you think.
If you don't know a priori where the break will come, right, only we can get some, you can get a handle where the break in this series may come by looking at the rolling regression like you did last week.
That will give you er a good idea as to where the break comes.
If you are not too bothered erm, if you don't know a priori where the break comes, you can just split the sample size in half and just estimate erm an equation for each, not less, you won't but the computer will, if you just specify half the sample size, right, and when it asks for the number of observations  failure or Chow tests you just press the return key and it will use all the remaining observations, right, but when you are doing the empirical work you should always test for structural stability, right, and er either of Chow's tests will, will suffice, right, but if you've got  a very small stock sample where there are fewer observations than there are parameters to be estimated you will have to use Chow's second test  failure.
Although it does have lower, lower power than his first test, right, but if you can't calculate his first test then it's the best thing to use.
Right, okay, erm  let's now move on to er these other diagnostics, right, like test for structural change these diagnostic test statistics that are calculated for  right, because essentially what they're doing is that they're testing the assumptions on which ordinary leased squares is based.
Now if you violate any of the assumptions ordinary squares, right, then the procedure will produce or may produce misleading results, we can only be confident in statistical terms about ordinary leased squares parameters, right, because we know and show in theory that they hold providing a number of assumptions are met, like you have serially uncorrelated errors, right, we don't have m multi co-linearity amongst the regresses, right, we have constant variance throughout the sample  now if any of those er assumptions are breached, violated then our, any statistical results that are generated from erm the technique that assumes that those assumptions haven't been breached erm are invalidated and we can get very misleading er parameter estimates, right, in the presence of auto correlation or multi-linearity erm .
Right, Microfit holds this in this regard and every regression that you estimate will always have a table of diagnostic test statistics after it, right, so although we are interested in the parameter values of our estira estimated  right, in order to have any confidence in those parameter values you must ensure that we haven't violated any of the assumptions
in which  is based, right.
In Microfit, you've got tests for serial correlation, functional form, normality of the residuals, right, and hetero skilasticity right if you reduce the sample size at the beginning of the estimation period you will also get Chow tests in there as well.
We can use the whole sample but just get those four  erm four test statistics  okay.
Now if we just look at the er test statistics for this particular model, right, if we chose say the five percent significance level  right, then we can see serial correlation, we've got a test statistic of two point zero eight, right, we wouldn't reject the null hypothesis there, the null is that we have no serial correlation, we have uncorrelated errors  right, clearly we want uncorrelated errors, right, so we'd be quite happy with that particular test statistic, it doesn't exceed the er five percent critical value.
So it doesn't look like this model exhibits serial correlation.
Second test for functional form and there should read, you know we've logged our data here  logging implies there's a multi picketed relationship between the variable expressed in absolute value, is that the case or is there a linear relationship or some other type of relationship there?
So funct the functional form test will see erm will tell us whether we ought to possibly log the data or whether we ought to unlog the data and just do a regression in er er in absolute  levels as opposed to logs.
Right so the functional form test, if we look at the kie squared version, right, again we've got a very small er test statistic implying there's no  breach of functional form  right, the, the log er specification, right, seems to be working okay, there's no problems with it  erm if we now look at normality we've got a bit of a problem with normality, right in that our test statistic is now four point nine, if we look at the critical value at the five percent level of kie when kie squared two, ah it's not too bad, our five percent critical value of the kie squared two is five point nine nine, so although that test statistic is reasonably high, I mean you'd probably reject, oh yes, we can reject the null at ten percent of normally distributed errors  we wouldn't reject the null at five percent  erm  let's just have a look at in actual fact at those errors to see what the problem is.
So if you erm press the return key  er go into option three  right and what we'll do is  we'll, we'll plot erm plot the histogram of the residuals because what this test for normality is doing is seeing whether the residuals we get from our regression are normally distributed, right O and S assumes that they will be.
Now, the reason why we're getting a fairly high test statistic is that er, that distribution, although it looks normal on the left hand side, it doesn't look particularly normal erm on the right and that we are missing some observations, we are missing some values of the residuals er in one area of the graph, nevertheless if we had a larger sample, right we probably erm, right it doesn't look, that looks quite encouraging in actual fact, those residuals do seem to be er normally distributed er what the test statistic is doing er it's saying  it's performing a, it's a kiescraper two test, it's making two restrictions, one of which is saying, is the distribution of these residuals symmetric er and also it's testing whether there's one of the tails is a lot larger or a lot longer than the other tail of the distribution and er test statistics fairly high but we wouldn't reject the null of normality at the five percent level so our test statistic is four point zero eight and the critical value is five point nine nine and that the five percent significance level, so we've got reasonably er robust residuals.
Right, if you just want to come out of there and we'll just have a look at the plot of the residuals, if you plot the residuals  the test for serial correlation there  well the test for serial correlation, right, and try and determine whether there's a auto regressive structure to those parameters and I think Steve  was talking to you about er auto regressions, so what the computer is doing essentially, it is getting the residuals from the model  raised and it's regressing them  right on the residuals in the previous period, right, and it's testing whether this parameter row, right, is significantly different from zero  right, now if this is, if row is significantly different from zero, let's say it's nought point six, that implies the residuals in T are not independent of the residuals in T minus one.
Right there's some correlation between the two, right, auto violation  the residuals  right, so where we don't have residual auto correlation which is the case here, you could actually save the residuals, perform an error less and you wouldn't find coefficient on residuals with T minus one  significant, you've got an, potentially that's what these tests for serial correlation do, right, they, you can think of them as r saving the residuals, running a, running this regression, right.
Where we  this is first order correlation, you may want to specify erm, some second order  serial correlation in which case you'd be seeing whether the residuals in T were related to the residuals in T minus one.
Well if we specified our model correctly, right, then these residuals should be just one noise, they should just be, appear with random fluctuations with mean zero.
Right, and if you look at those, they look pretty er pretty uncorrelated .
Clearly there's no systematic structure in those residuals, right, if the residuals were moving in a cyclical manner erm that would imply that we are missing an important explanatory variable in our model and its systematic effect has been just thrown into the error term and as a result we are picking up that systematic effect in, in residuals.
Okay press the er escape key  and go back to the regression results, erm so return to the post regression menu and then display regression results,regressult results again.
case of the diagnostic tests   this model looks reasonably okay, we haven't got erm significant serial correlation, we haven't breached  form, we have reasonably normally distributed residuals, right, test for hetero skilasticity that just a test to see whether the residuals are growing over time, right,hetero skilasticity is where we have non constant, non constant variance  of our, of our error term  right, and very often you, you find that the variance through the residuals, something like that  the residuals will look like that, I think, they're growing systematically over time, right, these are homo skilastic right, and these are hetero skilastic right, residuals and again we wouldn't want to have a model of hetero skilastic residuals, right, simply because that violates one of the assumptions on which the blue properties  are based.
hetero skilasticity means to erm  erm we don't have biased estimates for our parameters, we have estimates that don't have minimum variables and they won't be the most efficient estimates.
got a very low test statistic either in terms of kie or F right so we haven't reached  but the model is still a poor model because we don't have erm er stable parameters, right, so you would actually reject this model as it stands, alright, because it didn't pass the diagnostic test statistics but there is no point generating parameters w if they, if they are not constant and you're gonna say  elastic demand is  one point four six or really it it's ranged between minus three  plus, plus six over the sample, so you put estimate means  so it must have constant parameters.
What you might do, although I say you'd reject this particular model and that
this is a structural change, what you could do or the easiest thing would be to do was just to incorporate a dummy variable, right, if you incorporated a dummy variable to a erm  and to explain the  and to take out the effect of structural change, right, er in that dummy inclusive model, right, all the diagnostic test statistics were okay, right, you would use, you would, therefore, use that, that particular model  what we might do is just see if that is the case erm so if you come out of er diagnostics, work towards the data processing environment and generate a dummy variable  right, so if you go into the erm data processing environment  if it's in the er sort of process plot  option  what we'll do create a dummy variable call it D and let D pull zero press the return key and then edit  D oh and if you just set erm observations for
nineteen thirty nine through to nineteen er forty five or whatever the end of the sample is to one, set them all to one
Is  forty.
Well thirty nine or forty all do it to thirty nine just to keep, so  all have the same results.
I mean where we could dummy into the war here so the war starts in thirty nine so unless you've got good reason to believe that consumption wasn't affected until nineteen forty, we use a dummy for the whole war period  once you've edited, once you've edited the variable you press the end key that saves the edit.
All I do now is regress our model  right, including just a, a cons a constant dummy, right, so if you specify your regression equation, just add D to the list of explanatory variables, right, so we are assuming that the effect on the textile consumption is simply just to move the demand function up, right, use the entire sample period  amongst this estimation.
You know that the parameters were non constant but hopefully they will be now constant, now that we've er included the dummy variable  okay er so if you go to the diagnostic menu
we've got a bit of a problem, right, the dummy variable that we've included erm er you might, you might get away with this amount.
It seems that we now have serial correlation in our model as a result of including the dummy  right, now we've got to test statistic, I mean always look at the F version of the test, right, er our F statistic of three point seven six is significantly different from zero, right, that leaves seven percent level, so a five percent test  we probably accept that we didn't have any serial correlations and we just got there by the skin of our teeth on that particular test erm yes, you could probably get away with this one, functional forms fine, no problem there,hetero skilasticity right, are F statistic three point nine but significantly different from zero that's six percent level, right, so again we just scrape it if we were looking at the ninety five percent confidence  it wants to be five percent if you are using as five percent significance level.
Right, we can just get there.
So this model would be er, you can say it's reasonably robust, bear in mind though that those test statistics on serial correlation and er hetero skilasticity are very close to the critical value used.
Had you chosen the ten percent significance level as your cut off point  erm you would infer there is both serial correlation and hetero skilasticity in, in the model.
Right, so, you know, there's no econo-matrixes by no means the science and you can essentially get the computer to er tell the story that you want simply by choosing er critical values but nevertheless we've re probably be reasonably confident in our estimate, particularly if those estimates, we'll just go back to them, er the er display the regression results again,display them again but those coefficients are elasticities, right, they're cored with our a priori reasoning  right, we put ah, unit elasticity, you may want to test the hypothesis that the elasticity on erm the income variable, that income elasticity is significant given one, just generate computer a T ratio in the hypothesis value being one instead of zero, as in a normal T test, right, and that coefficient point nine five is sufficiently close to one, by looking at the standard error  to er  further that is an estimate of one  you've got very inelastic er demand erm for the, the textiles, that coefficient, is that the time, I can't believe it if that's all, oh no that's eight, don't worry
Eight.
Yeah so it's point eight, so it is, you do have price, price elasticity demand for textiles is price inelastic.
Right, and we may, we may expect that to be the case, you know, clothes don't have, textiles don't have many substitutes.
As a result erm changes in demand are gonna be er fairly unresponsive to changes in price because you've got to use textiles in order to make clothes and everything else that you make textiles with.
Right, okay I think that's probably er  about it we'll leave it there, if you come out of Microfit don't forget to tell it to log off the network.
What's er Steve  doing with you at the moment in, in lectures, has he started auto regressive models?
Yes.
Right 

Ok can I draw to some sorry.
I take it as a last question, comment.
Angela  I'd like, I'd just like to ask if we could have a meeting about the future of the gallery.
Yes.
And I'd like art teacher's in all the school's all around, not just Harlow but Hoddesdon Hertford all around Epping to be asked I'd like artists to be asked from all around erm Essex has a directory of artists Eastern Arts has a directory of artists, I think you could probably find quite a lot of people .
I don't think we're very well represented here tonight and I think there's a a lot of  not well used a terrible waste of space.
And we need to say that you know I don't think that it's criminal to have a gallery but it's criminal to waste the space some of the time.
Yeah, we'll look at that yeah that's sort of.
Can I just say before you close, is a you  out a hand out before everybody was here can some more of those be run off with a questionnaire 
Perhaps I should mention now I mean I I I'm not  fill in questionnaire's but it would it would be helpful if you actually did erm fill in that before you actually leave this evening and leave it on the on the table on the way out if that's possible I think that, that information which you put on them would be useful.
Can I just say a conclusion I'm not sure how you feel how the meeting's gone this evening I think it's been very positive meeting at least people have actually said what there concerns are and actually raised eh, some, some of the issues.
I also give a guarantee that it isn't just a one off situation,meeting we all go away and forget about what we've said I can assure you that won't happen minutes have been taken and and what's been said this evening that will be conveyed to the management committee meeting the board meeting and I think we need to look very clearly at a very closely what's been said and respond to what's been said and I think that it's been suggested also raised this evening about having a further meeting to report back and say erm this has been said this is our response.
I think that that will happen also.
I hope you've found the meeting this evening positive, I'm sure you haven't heard perhaps if the people found after the  this evening and the guy up there reckons we ought to retire, well I don't think we will retire but I think we will be responding to the things that you raised this evening I happen to think the Harlow theatre  I'm not sure how you measure success, erm I think we measure it's success in the fact that people actually do use the building, people do come to see the shows.
I am aware of the difficult times that other theatre companies who actually face in this moment in time and I am very grateful when I and I've always been grateful to the Harlow Council for the funding of the Council has given to the theatre, has given to the theatre over the years.
It's interesting that erm many  been said, many of the other local authorities in the area certainly don't produce or put on as what Harlow Council does, they certainly don't from the arts like Harlow Council does and I think we have all got a gratitude to the Council even in difficult times the money spends on the arts.
The the Council looking at the whole process of how it spends it money what it does, I think the theatre the start of this evening we were looking quite close about what we do and how we do it what we don't do and what we should do and I think from what's been said this evening will be re look closely the questions you've raised things that you've raised we'll report it back to you in the hope of this meeting that we'll actually moved forward because I think it's in everybody interest everybody's interest if the playhouse closes.
The playhouse in the Harlow is about the people in Harlow and about the people that come in from outside of Harlow I'm very conscious that we do serve a very wide community and I am pleased that people with other sounds come and support the theatre has been rightly said if they didn't come in to Harlow to support the theatre we would have major problems.
So could I just in conclusion say please fill in your short questionnaire thank you for your attendance and I can assure you as Chairman of the trust what you said and the question's you've raised this evening will be looked at in great detail and we will be reporting back to you in the near future about the proposals that we wish to make.
Thank you.

Right have we got any apologies for absence?
Yes?
Yeah they're on the l the list which is er circulating .
Yes.
I think there's five so far.
Right.
Er, I would like er to welcome you all to tonight.
Er I would particularly like to welcome John Rothwell who many of you know.
Erm  I've known John for many years.
I can remember delivering er leaflets in Boothstown.
Er  we were finding out how long it would take us to deliver leaflets in Boothstown.
That'd take us a lot longer now,.
Mm.
Er but he he is the agent for the European elections, the Liberal Democrats agent, and he's gonna say a few words about that later on.
Er thank you all for coming tonight.
Er I think it's the er I think it's the third General Meeting  er of the Worsley Constituency Liberal Democrats.
Er I know that there's at least one other attraction tonight, especially if you've got Sky Television, or 
have a ticket for er Burnham Park, and I know at least one of our members found the attraction of the match too tempting.
Lindon Greensit, who by the way would like to come onto the committee sends his apologies.
Where?
It's been a peculiar year, a sad year, we have lost some loyal members, Mr Williams, and John Norton Grimshaw.
Sybil Mann, a Liberal member for many years.
It was only two years ago however that er Bob discovered her, and George, and she's been an inval valuable member of the c committee ever since.
We have missed her bad badly, especially in Astley , where she was  to organize things, and I'm sure er the meeting sends George er our condolences.
Mm.
Yeah.
Nationally however,
nationally it has been a stimulating time.
The party conference was bubbling with enthusiasm.
There were good debates on racism, transport and crime pre prevention.
In the latter debate there was not enough emphasis o on the inner cities.
Home watch schemes are not much good when many of the neighbours are criminals  and they terrorize the rest.
In Worsley frank f f f frankly, er actually it's been disappointing.
Firstly we've had no elections, which means that we've had little to focus on.
Usually after elections we have an upsurge in memberships, so this year, thanks mainly to Tom Hilton, er it's been good that we've managed to maintain our membership.
The membership unfortunately have seemed rather passive.
A dinner was organized for the Euro campaign, we sold about ten tickets, we had to cancel.
We had a room booked for the Christmas dinner and we didn't have the courage to go ahead with it, because we didn't feel we could sell the tickets.
Both lost money.
We or we are organizing a hoe-down on the twelfth of February,eight eight P M, tickets five pound fifty.
There's been a poor response from members.
However, we've managed to sell eighty three tickets through sa through various ways, and er now every ticket that's sold will make a profit, and we need the money.
Perhaps I'm wrong to blame members, perhaps it's the fault of the committee or the Chairman.
Perhaps we need to involve members in er other ways.
I feel that we need now new blood on the committee, and coupled with the fact that I've done one one more year than the constitution says I should, I'm not standing for reelection as Chairman.
We must now look to the future.
The Tories are in disarray.
They promised ta tax cuts, they promised to cut crime, they promised to look after the environment, they promised to improve e education, they promised to improve the the democratic process, they're now the party of careful housekeeping.
They deliver nothing.
They deliver the opposite.
We should replace them as the Labour Party's main op opponents.
We have we have elections to fight, we need money, we need candidates, we need workers, and ideas, we need help.
For the local elections I would like to appeal to you to put your name forward as a candidate.
We cannot afford to let the Labour Party go on unopposed, cos I feel that the Conservatives are struggling for candidates, in fact I know they are.
Please, let's get going.
Right Bob, the minutes of the last A G M.
Very good.
to you.
Oh while I'm at it, might as well dish out the agendas as well since we've already started .
I thought you were gonna say raffle tickets.
Gonna say, I haven't got a , limitless  
Yes they all squashed onto one sheet you see.
Thank you.
here  in nineteen sixty two.
To  fifty nine.
You've got a copy from  John .
Oh sorry , yeah.
I'll have a read.
There we  are then.
I can't read that sort of  
Do you accept that these are a true record?
Yes.
Anybody to second that?
Alright?
What if I propose that that's a true record?
Yeah?
Right?
Seconder?
Right.
All in favour?
All right, thank you.
Any matters arising?
Nothing?
There's just one thing if I might add to that.
Erm  we we were supposed to have had a a guest speaker at the last er  A G M and that was the result of the the video being shown on its own.
Might I just point out that that he did send his apologies, and er he also sent us a a donation of twenty pounds.
Right, thank you.
Mm.
That's excellent .
It was most welcome.
Yeah.
Have we given him a receipt or anything?
Or acknowledgement, or anything 
Yes.
We we  .
Excellent.
Any other matters?
Right.
Reports..
Right.
I like this phrase in paragraph eight of the  
Oh.
of the minutes Mr Chairman.
Oh, what's that?
Talking about the closing of mines.
Yeah.
And it says  The Tory government which must which must take responsibility for setting up a rapacious duopoly of generating companies .
Beautifully worded.
Well I c I ca I can die happy now,praised by  
by Arthur Smith .
That that's something.
Not many people have er enjoyed that.
Can we have an action replay of that?
Yes.
Erm  yes, er erm er another bit of paper to dish out to have a look at er for those that er are not too familiar with the motorway project which has has taken up erm  quite a lot of my time  .
erm I did see I did see you on television.
Er oh I've been on.
Oh yeah.
Not every week.
Er yeah.
Er  Yes erm the these erm  exemplify two of the effects of the motorway proposals.
Er the the the top one er shows erm one or two of the houses which are due to be er demolished er if 
Corner of Glenn Avenue, are they?
Row Green?
Er yes.
Yeah.
That's right.
Er so the the  er proposed additional motorway would in fact virtually cover the whole of the er site shown in in that picture.
Mm.
Er the the l the lower picture is of the er traffic island er the present traffic island outside the Courthouse  er together with in the middle distance the existing motorway and behind it erm St Mark's Church, and as part of the scheme er that existing motorway would be dug up and moved er to cover the existing island in the foreground roughly up to where that white car or van is.
So there'd be two er and and then the new motorway would be built er at roughly er ground level as it were er where the existing motorway is, but it would be lower  and there would be a a footbridge  an ornamental  landscaped!footbridge built over both motorways to get from the viewpoint to St Mark's Church.
Er   well  er a l a lot of my time has been spent in another context er as Secretary of  er Residents Against the Motorway which is er an all-party thing er but we've er we've also taken some action  as er a political party as well in that er fairly early on sixth of July ninety two er we we wrote to er Nick Harvey who is er MP who is our  Transport Spokesman er and we gave him some er initial details er of the scheme er to which he er replied erm reminding us of what we knew already which was the Lib Dems' transport pali policy in application to roads.
Er at the last conference er both Kerry and myself buttonholed him er and proposed that we er push it a bit further and er the re upshot of that was that we wrote him a much more detailed letter  er  on whatever date it was, er first of November ninety three, and we've now had a er a reply  er to that er giving us carte blanche to quote him er w with er a number of er quotations which we'd drafted and put into his mouth, so er a all the quotations that we've asked him to approve we can use.
Now er Paddy Ashdown has also said that anything that Nick Harvey approves of er he will approve of so we can quote Paddy er the same er at er at some suitable point, for example in advance of the May elections.
We've also submitted er on your behalf er motions to the er regional conference er and to the er Cardiff er  federal conference, which I mistakenly referred to as a national conference.
Er the upshot of that is er that  the  motion for Cardiff conference er has been ruled out er because it's not a national conference it's a federal one,so I've got caught out on on a technicality there, er but we have put in er an amendment to  another motion submitted for Cardiff er   not that one   erm  a motion submitted er  by South West Herts er which concentrates on the M Twenty Five.
So we've we've put in erm an amendment to that one to make it include reference to the M Sixty Two relief road.
Er I've got the text of those here, I don't propose to go through it all now, but if anybody er you know wants to have a look at that they're they're welcome.
The regional conference one, er since there is a regional transport paper coming up for debate er in in which I had  er a hand as regional erm policy chairman, er the the the Worsley motion er will in fact be taken as a an amendment er to that regional paper which is coming up er at the Southport conference.
So we've er we've done I think what we can er as a party about that motorway project and er there will doubtless be more to do.
So that's the er the motorway thing.
I found out er today I don't know whether anybody else has er heard of this that there is a proposal coming er up to er for for the Isle of Man company which owns most of the Ellesmere shopping centre site er to purchase the Market Hall and er convert it er or whatever  er the suggestion is into a supermarket.
Er the market traders er are up in arms about this and I found them er in the process of trying to get a petition together but it it wasn't put together right, they were just getting people to sign blank pieces of paper.
So er when I  found out about this  I've equipped them with a er 
with a proper petition er and er I have a copy here if er you would like to c circulate it and er sign it.
Erm 
Might I just add to that that er I have heard that they also want to take over the Pembroke Hall.
Whether there's any truth in that  
Yeah the the way it was put to me was that the Pembroke Hall would be part of the deal er but that the Isle of Man company was not particularly enthusiastic about having the er the the the poison pill of the Pembroke Hall wrapped in with the deal cos it doesn't make money.
Er  so that's that's as it was told to me by er the th their their Chairman erm  Win Winder.
E Winder.
Winder .
Winder is it?
Mhm.
Yes.
So  er no details are are available er for what the er Isle of Man company proposes to do with the Market Hall or or with the Pembroke Hall for that matter.
Er er it seems that the Council have known about this for six months er and it's only within the last week or two er that information has got out  so it seems to me that that's something that er that we ought to take an interest in.
Er  next there is an item er for Kerry.
Er we have now written to the Council about the excess traffic on Ringlow Park Road and Chapel Road  caused  er by erm  the traffic calming measures which have been put on er to Hazelhurst Road.
So all the traffic that used that as a rat run to get on the East Lancs Road
is is  now going er through Ringlow Park Road and some of it through Chapel Road, er and those roads are even less suitable for traffic than  er for commuter traffic er than Hazelhurst Road.
So that's er been attended to.
I think  that's 
I think that's all I want to report er Mr Chairman.
Right.
Er 
I don't know whether it's now is the appropriate time Kerry but 
Go on.
could I ask if i if it is appropriate whether whether Bob could elaborate on on what the proposals are for the Market Hall and .
Yes, I've I've 
Yeah.
only had this sprung on me er today  er when I went in to the Hall and and and saw them with a notice and a table collecting signatures.
Er now  it s it seems that the idea is for this Isle of Man company I think you kn you know the name of it don't you which I've forgotten.
It has several guises.
Anglo International is one of them.
Anglo International yes.
Er well it seems that that they've put in a bid to er purchase the  th the market place er and as Peter said quite rightly apparently wrapped in wi with it er I don't know why but wrapped in with the the proposed deal is the er Pembroke Hall.
Er  but  nobody could tell me for certain what it was that they intended to use it for, er but it was apparently not guaranteed that it would continue to be used er as a market hall.
I actually heard that it was going to be used as a food hall.
Purely a food hall.
Right.
Yes.
Which would then expel the market traders and I think the i well the ploy was to try and get them into some of the er the vacant lots in within the Ellesmere centre.
But when you look at the cost of those units
Yes.
in comparison with what they would be paying for a market stall then it would be it's way out of their their 
That's right.
their their range.
So I mean it it was it was represented to me er and I felt that there was some logic in it that that this company would not be discussing this deal unless it felt it could make money out of it and that money in the end would have to come out of the local people here.
Yep.
Right.
Could I make could I make er erm
Sorry.
a question ?
Mm.
Yes Alec.
George.
It doesn't seem to have .
It doesn't
Yeah.
it doesn't look as though the 
Yeah.
That's right.
initiative has come from Anglo International.
Er  if part of the package cont contains something that they don't want
Mm.
then I would suggest that perhaps Salford Council have approached them.
Erm 
It's not impossible because er 
Well  
of of this secrecy that's apparently surrounded the whole thing.
But if if if Pembroke Hall is part of the package and they would never have volunteered to take on
Yeah.
Pembroke Hall surely if er if it's something they don't want.
I would have thought the mo Without knowing anything about it I would have thought the most likely explanation for that is that  that the property company who own the precinct have suggested to the Council that they would like to buy the Market Hall and the Council have been sitting on it and pondering it and some bright spark has come up with the idea, Yes you can buy the Market Hall if you also buy Pembroke Hall .
Could be.
I would have thought that was a more likely erm  But er we're obviously we're speculating and it's perhaps
Mm.
fruitless 
Yes I know.
to do so.
Would you wish me to write to the Council and ask them what's going on?
If you think there's any chance of a re of a reply I would very certainly .
Well if they refuse to 
reply or reply saying that it's 
confidential the then er that's all grist to the mill as well isn't it?
I think it would be a good idea yeah.
Yes.
It looks like a nice er subject  for the campaign for May.
Yes exactly.
Maybe an open letter in the pre in the press er would be suffice better.
Well er depending on what we get from from the Council .
Aye.
as a next step perhaps.
Yeah.
I was thinking.
Yeah.
Well you've got to react you've gotta act fairly quickly on that though haven't you.
Mm.
Oh yes.
You know if you send an open letter you you've gotta do it fairly Otherwise somebody else is going to write in and 
Yeah.
Erm or I might ri ring 
And then you're just replying to what they've said aren't you.
Or I might ri ring ring them up and ask them.
Yeah ring them up and ask them and then write a letter 
Yeah.
to the paper.
Yeah.
I thought.
Yes.
Excellent.
Good.
Right er  er that Secretary anything er else on Secretary's report?
No?
Er Membership Secretary.
Yes well Mr Chairman  members.
You will see that er at the last  meeting the membership total was a hundred and four.
That's rather more than a year ago of course.
Er it was in October in ninety two.
And it followed a general election  which of course is always a 
Yeah.
good recruiting period and we had er thirty o thirty one I think it was or thirty four new members who came in at the general election.
Inevitably we haven't held er er they haven't been able to hold up that  new members this year and er the main job has been trying to er keep quite a number of the members who were recruited er to the gen following er the general election.
Several of them were fringe members who we have not been able to keep on to some of them especially in er  in Little Hulton and Irlam 
Mm.
where I think we've  er lost track of about eight or nine people.
So er we're still hovering around a hundred but instead of being four over the hundred the present total is ninety six by my reckoning.
Er  we'd dearly like to get it up to three figures again obviously because a amongst other things this affects the number of representatives that we get for  conferences and so on.
If you get over a hundred you get an extra extra one there.
Hopefully we may be able to do that.
Er ninety three was not a good year for recruiting from the point of view of elections as has already been said because we didn't have any elections and therefore er it wasn't possible to  er to canvas  and consequently er we were struggling to recruit new members.
We did we did manage to recruit nine during the year  but we lost er four by death as Kerry has mentioned, three by removal or one or two elderly people moving into  er sheltered or into homes and things like that where they're no longer contactable, and there were ten  lapses making a total of seventeen that we lost  er as against nine  new members recruited, which meant that we have a nett have a nett loss of eight from a hundred and four to the present total of  ninety six.
What has been er what has been pleasing is that a n a number of the people who've come in on the last two or three years or so er are younger people, people in their er late teens or twenties.
Er it's been one of my  hopes that we might be able to get  er a small youth section or youth committee coming   er  from amongst these people.
The latest the latest recruit is a young man of of twenty three from Astley .
Once again we have this problem of  keeping in touch with the wing wards,Astley and er  East it's not all that easy to do but er there are people there who are  showing an interest and I hope that we can .
Obviously with the coming of two elections shortly we have the opportunity to do a lot more canvassing and  contact more members of the public and to draw in new members from there.
We also have in the area a tremendous number of new houses  which  have never been contacted by us or for  by any political party and I would hope that we might be able to to do er something about the area behind the   church there  is er an area that comes to mind which could well be  fruitful, and I would hope that we might during this year get er some kind of literature out to these places apart from election literature.
So at the moment it's ninety six.
If anybody can help me help me to get it up to three figures again  personal contact  could be er very useful in these cases if you come across anybody who you might think  we could interest.
You don't have to do it, just tell me and I'll I'll tell them.
Right thank you Tom, thank you for your work again this year, especially following up the  the er members who lapse.
I know it's difficult.
Thank you.
Er  next is Treasurer's report.
Peter?
Mr Chairman er loyal members.
Erm whilst I've not been able to produce an audited er set of accounts I do have er a set of figures for you erm  and as you said at the the beginning of your opening er speech Mr Chairman that erm we had one or two losses during the year, those er in actual fact didn't erm affect us in thi this particular financial year as they were aimed at the September December period, but therefore they will be reflected in next year's figures not or in the current year's figures or the next annual general meeting's figures.
Er we started off the year with er a current account balance of two hundred and thirty three pounds ninety four and we ended with two er three hundred and twenty seven pounds twenty nine pence.
The deposit account it makes me wonder why we've got money on on deposit in in a bank.
Erm we've got we had two hundred and pounds fifteen pence on deposit which has raised us one pound ten pence interest over the year, leaving us at two hundred and twenty one pounds twenty five pence.
Some of the expenditure er some of the income came from erm  the Cheltenham Gold Cup which ra actually realized us the sum of ninety four pounds in comparison with twenty fo twenty four pounds the previous year.
The President's dinner raised us erm fifty five pounds and a profit on the hoe-down of thirty five pounds.
And thanks to Tom chasing up membership that actually brought us in a hundred and ninety nine pounds seventy er throughout the year.
Expenditures, er some of the the er higher amounts are printing at ninety pounds fifty,cons conference fees at sixty pounds, er Euro Election er donation of twenty five pounds, photocopies of forty pounds, er bank charges  Which er was a point that I took up with the bank erm  Mr Chairman last December.
Er they wanted to charge us eighty pence per transaction, and after a lot of argument we managed to pin them down er at er ten pounds for the at at the rate of two pounds fifty per quarter.
Er had they got their way every time we put a cheque in or took one out or moved money from one account to another it would have cost us eighty pence, which meant that had anybody paid their their fees to the er and made the cheque payable to us directly, we would have had to bank that cheque and then reissue another cheque  er to the appropriate department and that would have cost us one pound sixty, for which we'd have got nothing.
Mm.
And that one pound sixty would be eroded erm in the amount that comes back on our erm  direct payments from Downing Street.
Erm we have we had in in this particular set of accounts thirty five pounds on two occasions for rooms er which we had to let go and computer data er which is still being processed I understand at a cost of forty pounds.
Those are the the figures as they stand  as of thir at the thirty first of August nineteen ninety three.
Right.
How do we stand now?
Pretty much the same at the moment because I'm I'm sat on a couple of bills for Salford Council who I'm sure can afford it for the moment.
So
But we w we we are solvent.
Right.
Any questions?
Perhaps I could just add something to the the the item about the  data processing.
We er that that was that that er er election software wasn't it ?
That's right.
EARS.
Yeah.
Er we have now received a package from them.
Incidentally I I think when you when you net it all out that that forty pounds er is partly offset because I think we got er twenty five pounds from the  Spastics or something.
That's right yes.
Er so the actual cost is fifteen.
I've had a package at long last er back from EARS er  but I haven't actually erm put it onto the computer yet because it's erm it's proving a bit temperamental at the moment and I didn't want to risk overloading it with with yet another er software package u until I've had it seen to.
Er   I suspect that what they've sent us is the software but not the database for any wards and the the deal was that we would get er at least er the database for two wards er and a printout annotated with telephone numbers of the er electoral register.
So we we may have to pursue that further but there has been some progress after all this time and expenditure of  money and and time.
Where's that from Bob?
Sorry.
It's a  it's a thing called  EARS er which is an acronym for  Starts with Election anyway.
And what it enables you to do is er to to either type in the electoral register or er read it in from the corporation's disks, er maybe after translation, which is what one of the jobs that EARS did for us, er and you can then tag it with erm er serv erm canvas er returns and telephone numbers and things like that.
Well the reason why we were attracted to it was of course the very point that that they would translate the disks for nothing, we wouldn't have to type out the register, and they would also add the telephone numbers without us having to look them all up so that we could do telephone canvassing .
Mm.
Mm.
Er so I suspect it's not worked out quite as we intended er and it I mean the main problem is that it's it's it's cost us time, cost me time which I would rather have spent on something else but there we are.
Yeah the other the other factor is now that that data is getting on for twelve months old
Oh yeah.
and new registers will have been er made, composed, disposed of,
Indeed.
and recomposed.
Yeah.
Th th there is supposed to be an updating or editing  mode for EARS .
Yes.
Er 
Can I ask you how you've provided them with the data to to actually produce the erm 
We we bought it from Salford and from Wigan.
Er it was a deal done with the Spastics Society er on a at a national level in that er the individual local parties would buy this data er from the appropriate councils on on either disk or tape, er  EARS would translate them and the the cost of the translation would be borne by the Spastics er Society, and the cost of the disks, would be borne by the Spastics Society, and I think it was about a hundred and thirty quid or something like that altogether.
Er the Spastics Society would obtain the data for the purpose of trying to identify street agents for them er and er we would get the the database when completed.
Now er we we already had a license for an earlier version of EARS which in er in fact was in Aled's name from the last general election but  one.
T or two.
Erm  er that that was for a B B C computer.
So er  the  forty pounds was for the update of the license to erm er an I B M compatible.
That was offset as I say by er this er I think it was I think it was twenty five pounds er sweetener from the Spastics Society.
So the the whole operation has cost us fifteen pounds.
Er whether we've got anything usable out of it still remains to be seen.
Mm.
Right.
Might I just add that if anybody does actually pay their fee by cheques erm please make it to the right department  er as as Tom will give you erm  the co the correct er name for  for your cheque.
It saves us er handling and
Yeah.
erm 
So you they pay it to Who do they pay it to then Tom?
Who do you pay a cheque to ?
Er just pay it to  Are are we talking about er s subs?
Subs yeah.
Memberships.
Er well the Liberal Democrats or even S L D if you want.
You don't have to write very much.
Yeah.
Liberal Democrats.
The the point Peter er is making is don't make it out to us because if you if you give me a cheque to Worsley I've got to go to Peter's house and  and then get him to give me a cheque and then I've got to go to either Kerry or Bob and get them to 
Mm.
countersign it and er    
Lot of messing.
The the other factor is that 
we used to get .
We used to get exactly the same rebate, the only  thing is we have to wait three months for it.
We do get a regular cheque every three months erm of a rebate of thirty percent.
The the other factor is that that the negotiations with the bank erm to pay two pound fifty per quarter erm should have been  erm reviewed last December.
They've kept quiet and so have I.
Yes.
So therefore until they stay char start charging me some more money on it I'm gonna keep quiet.
Mm.
Mm.
Right.
Any  any other?
Could I suggest erm Mr Chairman er our our Treasurer has been under er some pressure recently.
Yeah.
Erm could I suggest that er that the incoming committee be given authority to erm  obtain erm audited accounts and to approve those accounts on on your behalf when available?
Can I move that?
Yeah.
Any seconders?
Yeah.
All in favour?
Right, passed.
Right.
Er  D says  Social  here Bob, what does that mean?
Are we does it mean we're having one?
Er no.
What it what means is er er a report from anybody that will admit to any responsibility for the social activities.
Er 
Er well I think I've said quite a bit about it.
Do you do you want to say anything Peter  in particular?
Er not not particularly apart from that er that the the s the support from from the Party in general wa was very poor from the members in general was relatively poor.
Erm 
Yeah.
and though these sort of things were the  the best way I I saw it er of of raising funds for  for the coming two elections the Euro Election and the next local elections.
Yeah.
And whilst we had no opportunities last year for canvassing or erm  for getting members we we could have I I felt er put on more fund-raising events as we had a quiet year and we could have probably at the same time persuaded one or two people to to actually join us.
It er I I mean I  as far as I'm concerned it's er extremely difficult to get people to er come to social events.
Mm.
Yeah.
Er  if you advertise them too early er they forget about it.
If you advertise them too late they've booked up something else.
Er so I I don't know where we are.
I've er this, the the er hoe-down, I've been  advertising since before Christmas er and er  although we didn't inform the members till about three weeks ago something like that er I've been telling everybody about it and I've had more  response from non-members than I've had from members for it.
Er I t I suspect that most of the tickets have gone to to people who you know who who are who I know and have rung up er not  It's no good putting notices out,no nobody responds to that.
Mm.
You've got to ring people up and ask them.
And then you've gotta ring them up and ask them again to see who's   to see who  Cos they usually say, Well I'll see what I can do, and then you've got to ring them up again and see if they've done anything, and and er and then sometimes you've gotta ring them up again.
Er so it's very very difficult.
I managed to get rid of about eighty and if we do sell these extra what twenty or thirty that's going to be between a hundred and a hundred and fifty pounds  profit .
about that profit yeah.
Yeah.
Because although the hotpots cost a pound er most people er  will will buy drinks at the bar and er we'll make fifty P out of them in the evening at the bar so you know we'll make five pounds from anybody we sell tickets to from now on.
Mm.
Er so if you can if you can talk to y r ring up anybody you know and just ask them.
You know.
Mm.
Did you say talk to or torture?
Torture.
Torture them.
Yeah.
But er it's less than a fortnight now.
Er I also need people to help me on with the bar wi serving on the bar.
Chris promised to help me buy the drinks and organize the that side of it getting the drinks.
And help on the bar.
And help on the bar.
Right.
Er  so we'll need some help on in the evening on on the bar when also er  we want some cakes as well cos we usually serve cakes with the hotpot, so if anybody would like to make a cake I'd be very grateful for that.
Er I've already had some promised but it depends on how many people we get there you see.
If we're going to get over a hundred we're going to need quite a  a lot of cakes.
Any er any questions about socials ?
I'll promise one.
You'll promised me a cake?
Well done John .
Ah excellent.
Well done John.
What would you like?
Cherry pie?
Cherry pie'll do fine.
cherries.
Cherries, right.
Right.
Yeah.
A ques a question about the er raffle tickets.
Oh right.
Mm.
Yes they've stripped me of my cash  for tonight .
Should I really have supported this venture rather than the raffle tickets?
What are what what are we gonna get out of 
Both.
What are we gonna get out of the raffle tickets?
Er we get er three pounds er per complete book er out 
Right.
of the five pounds for a for a full book
Right.
Fine.
er of the raffle tickets.
Just so that I've got some idea of er 
Yeah.
Yeah.
If I could just er just add to that, erm  th the Cheltenham Gold Cup, er as I said earlier, produced us ninety four pound last year.
Erm  if we actually get into the th th t the top selling bracket er or the top ten as it were, erm  bearing in mind that the top sales were one thousand three hundred and nineteen pounds,
that particular group got an additional five hundred pounds as a prize for selling the the most tickets.
Mm.
The next figure down was nine nine hundred and ninety two pounds fifty.
They got an award of two hundred pounds.
Er that was at at Beverley.
Erm  the the third prize was erm seven hundred and fifty eight pounds sales from South Suffolk, they got a hundred pounds, and seven other er constituencies who sold between six hundred and ninety three pounds seventy five and five hundred and one pounds' worth of tickets
got an extra fifty pound each.
Over the  erm four years th the last four years, er on aggregate, the income from the erm  erm  the draw has been one  a hundred and thirty thousand pounds, er of which ninety five thousand pounds has benefited the Party, and most of that is at constituency level
Mm.
as against er Head Office.
Mm.
Er anybody that  actually wants to see a list of the prizewinners from last year, from the actual race, I do have a copy  er
Yeah.
which gives na 

I'll explain     Have you got your notes with you from last week?
What's the last heading we got to?
I know we've erm  I shall prevent myself swearing  Basically, the clip's buggered  sorry?
Well that's that's what we did.
Oh brilliant, right.
Just trying to sort this out .
Yeah it's for some er it's for somebody  to get a general idea of the kind of things that happen in lectures.
It's  what they say it's just the whole business of looking at lectures for the British National Corpus.
The whole department's supposed to be involved and I keep forgetting to do it, possibly deliberately.
Sorry   thing is just absurdly wired up 
Okay then ladies and gentlemen, hello, good evening and er something yes.
Right, various bits of information for you.
Erm, first of all I did promise to you that I'd give you some idea of the sort of material would be on next week's erm multiple guess questions, okay?
So perhaps I'll just run through some of those.
Erm, can I ask you please to point out to anybody who isn't here, which I guess is quite a number of people, there's probably six or seven people who're not here, er that the test is in fact next Tuesday, that's February the twenty second, is it?
Okay, and you're asked to be erm in the lec sorry in the er great hall at five o'clock if you possibly can, okay?
The session will take an hour.
My guess is you may not need the hour to complete the er course work but er it's always difficult to say when you set the thing, yeah?
Er it's partly using some questions that've been around for a very long time but there're some subtle variations and some new ones added in, okay?
So they look a little bit different.
If you've got a past paper, it won't do an awful lot of good.
Erm, the idea of course is you haven't got past papers an er under no circumstances leave the exam hall with the paper, okay?
Please leave it on on the table.
What else to say about it?
Basically you're gonna get erm some questions on motivation.
I can't quantify these, I can't tell you how many there'll be, but there will be questions on motivation but before that there'll be some questions on the basics of of kind of y'know studying, work, psychology, the sort of thing you'll find in an introductory chapter er not only of the Arnold book but in other books as well.
Erm, there's going to be a number of questions on the ho of er selection and testing, including stuff on reliability and validity.
So that was the sort of stuff that  did for you for a couple of weeks before Christmas.
Okay, so that's selection, testing, reliability, validity.
Erm, there'll be material on impression formation and attribution which of course a number of the  did an essay on, person perception, yes?
Personal perception?
Is that a more familiar heading?
Okay?
There'll be something on job satisfaction, a number of questions on job satisfaction.
And er there'll be a number of questions on stress and a number of questions on leadership.
And when I last looked at it, one question on behaviour modification had managed to creep on there as well but I can't remember what the question is, so you'd better pay attention for the whole of the rest of this lecture in case I  in case I remember it.
Okay, right erm, okay what else?
Yes, erm for the final year students, your er assignment.
Er the majority, but only just the majority of your assignments are complete and they are in six one eight to be picked up.
Rather unfortunate because er er of course you d I can't tell you which ones I've done, which ones I haven't done, but all assignments will be back in six one eight, final year assignments, will be back in six one eight erm at some point early on Friday morning.
Okay, so I've got thirty four remaining ones to mark and I've got er all day tomorrow to do that and some on Thursday and possibly some time tonight.
So I'm I'm hopeful that I will comple well I'm certain that I will complete, barring accidents, the marking of final year assignments.
So you'll be able to pick those up from six one eight on erm um um um on Friday morning, okay?
So if you kind of er hang ar hang about til ten o'clock, they should be there by ten.
And er generally I'm sort of very impressed with the standard of work on the essays so okay.
Right, thanks very much for doing the erm the questionnaire last week, okay?
You'll be you'll probably be interested in the results.
I certainly was  Okay    won't stretch that far you see  Okay, well basically you all felt appalling about tutorials and er, yes?
How many  all together?
Erm, there are between sixty and seventy  I think it's probably nearer the sixty end, I keep taking them out, rather than adding them in, okay?you'll be pleased to know.
I d I don't think you'll find it a strain to do in an hour.
I think you'll find, at a minute a question, you'll b you're okay really
group dynamics?
Nothing on group dynamics no.
I've eliminated the group dynamics ones.
Okay.
Actually it's a good point because there will be er I will g be giving you different guidance obviously about the final exam where material which we haven't covered er we a examined here may well be examined, yeah?
But a you've only had twenty minutes on group dynamics.
I didn't really feel that there was very much there that I could I could ask you about at this stage, okay?
Right, erm, okay, so tutorials then.
Well erm basically the this the tutorials run by  all run their course.
I I've a feeling that er she may be seeing individual students this Friday er and that's all so er I don't think there will be a tutorial.
Erm but there will be a new set of tutorials provided for you because I think there's a general recognition that you've been very badly treated indeed er as regards this erm and they're likely to be run by me in term three, okay?
Now I'm not able to do tutorials for you this term at the times that you're available cos they clash with lectures that I do er for another course.
So er the idea is that there will be tutorials provided in term three and I'll be giving you details, a published programme of those as well, okay?
So there will be some tutorials.
I know that many of you feel you've had almost nothing of value from the current tutorials and er erm which is rather unfortunate.
In terms of lectures, there was a fairly normal distribution.
That is that most of you felt they're okay, some of you felt they were quite good and some of you felt they were quite bad.
They distributed normally quite well.
Erm, some specific points that came up in the comments that you made.
Er, firstly that I'm too fast and and er a number of people have said this to me so er and it's true  so  I don't wish to elaborate further on that .
However, I do respond well to requests to slow down so
from all courses, so do erm make sort of gestures or something.
Erm but okay.
The point a lot of you made was that the course does seem to be very based on one text, the Arnold text and you're quite, well you're almost right about that.
Ha about half of you thought that was a good thing and about half of you thought it was a bad thing.
Erm th the general idea is that I'm actually responding to a request from last years' student group so that the previous lecturer  did pass on to me that the student group had been unhappy that there were too many texts referred to as they couldn't necessarily get them from the library and they couldn't afford to buy more than one text.
So it was minuted in a sort of staff student consultative group last year, so I have been requested to confine it in some measure to a single text.
Erm, having said that, I've not always done that.
So, for example, the lecture I'm going to give you today isn't reflected at all in Arnold erm so er I think it'd be helpful if I were to give you some indication of when there were and when there weren't.
Erm but er I can appreciate obviously  for you, particularly final year students, to have s y'know a single text which not all of you are not that keen on, but er some of you do see it as an advantage as well.
Erm um what else?
Yeah.
The other thing, which a lot of you asked for, was more handouts and more overhead projector slides.
Erm I I've had a couple of difficulties with those.
Er one is actually getting the O H P's so that you can see them at the back.
It's actually quite a deep lecture theatre, I think it's probably the biggest the University possesses outside the great hall, and er it it's difficult to get them large enough so that everyone can see at the back.
One option might be that I'll produce some slides.
There's a slide projector at the back of the hall which I can control from the front so I may be aiming to get some slides for you instead of the overhead projector .
The other difficulty with handouts is there's an awful lot of you g to give the handouts to so we tend to waste a lot of time.
Er but again y'know I could in theory provide some handouts for you which you could perhaps pick up at the end of the er of the lecture from the front or even have available in a general office for you, okay?
So I do take note of those and I'll see what I can do about those, okay?
Erm, having said that, I think lecturers tend to accumulate these things over time and this is the first year I've run this course so I don't have a great stock of things I can I can show you.
Right, oh yes, what else?
Erm , if he's here, could I see him afterwards about his request for er a questionnaire?
Okay, so, where we got to last week then was looking at the analysis and modification of er work behaviour.
So if we can erm take that a bit further.
I think the last the last heading you got, well you put a heading down before we finished and that was organisational behaviour and modification.
Is that true?
Yes it is.
Good.
Okay.
Well I think the the er other point I was making last week was that erm this whole are of learning theory is erm y'know a very traditional area.
Bye .
Was it something I said already?
Erm, this whole area of learning theory is a very traditional area but it has it has been very influential actually very recently, despite being very ancient.
It's been influential very recently in clinical psychology and also in work psychology.
Erm so erm what we've got then is is the the idea of ah looking at some kind of behavioural analysis, although I'll got into behavioural analysis in just a few minutes.
And also er looking at the kind of rewards that erm an employee might benefit.
If you're going to use this by by rewarding specific desired behaviour you need to have a look at a reward list and there's a whole range of potential rewards that've been around.
Simple feedback itself, feedback of performance, can be a powerful sort of reward, okay?
But other people have used things like tokens which can be y'know saved up to exchanged for consumer durables for example.
So er if you y'know do the desired behaviour, you collect so many vouchers and er y'know when you've got ten vouchers you exchange it for a television or something like that, but there's a whole range of things of that nature.
Erm, okay, let's have a look briefly at the idea of a token economy.
Now this is something more from clinical use but again has potential uses in work psychology.
But the notion of a token economy is that you reward desired behaviour at the point at which the behaviour is performed, okay?
And there's a lot of evidence which suggests that immediate reward is much more effective than delayed reward, okay?
So it's important to reward at the point of the desired behaviour, okay?
So for example pay schemes whereby pr productivity is rewarded once a year would seem to not y'know deal with that very effectively.
Okay, so ha if you're going to reward at the point of of actually doing the desired behaviour you've got a problem because people er you may not be able to give them something appropriate at that time which is rewarding.
The standard example comes from working with children.
The child has behaved itself and you want to reward the child then you er you give them some kind of er a chocolate bar or something, or a handful of Smarties or something.
Erm, the difficulty is that you can't really do that in work situations.
People may be motivated by bigger rewards.
So the idea is you have some kind of token so that er, classic example in sort of junior schools, primary schools, that y'know if a child actually does what you want it to do, it gets a kind of star in a star chart and  added up so many stars it gets some kind of present and basically the same kind of thing can be applied in clinical and in occupational settings as well.
So you're able to reward people ah with some kind of appropriate er some kind of token, a star or whatever it happens to be, some kind of token which it can then hav has a monetary value, okay?
Er and in theory terms, primary reinforcers are something which meets biological needs, like food is a primary reinforcer, okay?
Er however people are y'know are also reinforced by things which have no direct value.
Like we are reinforced heavily by money.
Money has no direct value, it has an exchange value.
So the idea of tokens  exchange value so they're rather like money.
Er another idea is is which I think is can be useful here, particularly in comes to focusing problems and difficulties at work is the idea of a behavioural analysis, okay?
Now a behavioural analysis, or perhaps another way of looking at this is a decision analysis, is quite interesting.
The sort of thing you might do was, if you've got  a decision, is you might want to look t at the  of that decision, okay?
So you might want to look at erm er somebody's thoughts  feelings, something about the situation  okay?
So you've got you've got things which set up or stimulate the behaviour or the decision.
We can call that  okay?
And we can have a look at some consequences of that  so you could have short term, long term consequences.
You can break it down further, you can add in things here about what somebody wanted, okay, what somebody was trying to get hold of, what they wanted, and also perhaps what they wanted to avoid.
So let's add a couple more columns in  and then back here you can have a look at whether they actually gain those, whether they got what they wanted.
Then you can start looking at at er at alternatives  okay, and what you end up with is a is a way of analysing er a decision or a choice to behave in a certain way, okay?
So you can look at ah a whole lot of things like this.
I'm used to d using this kind of material in relation to people's decisions about  addictive behaviours.
Er so if you look at their smoking erm people can fill in a kind of smoking chart in which you look at that.
Or again, at drinking behaviour.
If somebody goes on a drinking binge that's the behaviour, the decision they make.
What is going on that led up to that?
What's what's the factors in y'know involved in that decision, that behaviour?
What're the consequences of that, okay?
So you've got a way of analysing behaviour and what that leads you into is the ability to manipulate the consequences of certain behaviour, okay?
A lot of behavioural work is about manipulating the consequences, okay?
So that er you can give somebody short term benefits and long term benefits for behaving differently, okay?
You can identify alternative decisions, alternative behaviours, look at the consequences of those.
You can also manipulate the outer feelings of the behaviour as well.
Okay, so you've got an a kind of an analysis tool which will then enable you to look at how you may seek to modify behaviour.
Okay.
Let's have a look at a practical example now.
Let's have a look at a sample study .
Okay  and  nineteen eight-one.
Erm, they investigated the use of ear defenders in a high noise textile factory, okay?
So the company had supplied ear defenders, they wanted their work force to use those ear defenders erm but in fact there was very little use of them.
So the noise level in the factory was sufficient to be a threat to the er the hearing of their employees.
The company had a responsibility to avoid that.
Er but ear defender use is only thirty five percent, which is fairly grim.
Okay, so what they did was they looked at what would be an attractive reinforcer in their work force erm, if if they were to persuade them to wear ear defenders, and they found out, from doing research in the work force, that consumer durables would be appropriate.
That's what the work force would like as rewards for the desired behaviour, was consumer durables.
Okay, so they got the base line measurement, thirty five percent people use them, then they went to a variable ratio er token economy system.
Do you remember we talked about schedules of reinforcement last week?
Yes?
That you get one to one reinforcement.
The rat's in the box, presses a lever, gets an item of food.
But, if we make the reward of the item of food erm not predictable, okay, so it comes at variable intervals er then the rat actually works harder pressing the lever, it's more likely to do the behaviour and it's less likely to give up doing that behaviour afterwards, okay?
So we know that a variable ratio reinforcement is likely to maximise the production of behaviour and erm also minimise the chance of that behaviour being given up immediately reinforcement is withdrawn.
So there's theoretical grounds for suggesting that a variable er variable interval erm, did I say a variable interval or variable ratio?
I've got variable ratio down here, token economy system would be used.
Now what this meant in practice was that er y'know appropriate supervisors would appear at random intervals and give people tokens if they were wearing ear defenders, okay?
But not all the time, okay?
So a supervisor appears at random, on some occasions they get tokens, some occasions they don't.
So any time a supervisor appears, which could be any time, you might get a token, okay?
Now the tokens are actually worth quite a lot in in terms of consumer durables.
It's a bit like the sort of green shield stamps idea, or Esso petrol stations, whatever it is, yes?
If you're wearing the ear defenders when the supervisor comes round and happens to be on the token dishing out tour and you're wearing them, you get your token, okay?
Collect so many tokens you get a T V or a washing machine or whatever it is that you want.
You save up for the tokens to get what get y'know whatever it is you're after.
Okay, that led to an immediate rise in the use of ear defenders to ninety percent, okay?
So it went right up to ninety percent straight away.
Er the the study actually lasted two months but the er the behaviour continued at ninety p at ninety percent for nine months' follow up.
So, highly effective, and no drop off there.
Another example, I won't give it in the same detail.
Similar sort of principle erm and you give er you give people lottery tickets if they turn up on time.
tried to increase er erm well reduce tardiness at work, make sure people turn up on time, you have somebody dishing out lottery tickets to people who get there by nine o'clock, something like that, okay?
Similar sort of basis.
Okay, well there's more technical detail I could go into but I think y'know I'm not sure how how useful it is to you.
There's also more recent studies that you can look at as well, apart from that sample one I've given you.
Erm but I think you will find that well covered in Arnold's book.
I know I did in some some detail, particularly in the theory elements, which isn't in Arnold's book, but er I think you'll find that well covered there.
Okay, any questions arising from that so far?
Behaviour, the whole learning theory of behaviour and all that stuff at work?
Jolly good.
Okay, well let's go on to the next topic I'm proposing to cover and that's communication in organisations .
Okay, you may be wondering why I'm wired up with not one but two microphones today.
Th there is erm a study going on to do with something called the British National Corpus which I don't quite know what that's about but they they want er samples of the sort of things that lecturers do in lecture theatres.
Erm  so I'm not quite sure how representative I am but er I think they do this every forty years or something and then they kind of analyse the sort of speech content, that sort of stuff.
So they're just after a kind of random sample of Aston lecturers and as as the official random sample keep forgetting to put the er put the tape in the machine, or turn it on or whatever, it's handed on to me so I'm now wired up to an extraordinary degree.
Anyway, communication organisations.
First of all, I suggest to you that communication ar is an absolutely key process.
At a common sense level you could argue it's not possible to have er any kind of relationship without communications so communication equals relationship, relationship equals communication, common sense idea.
Y'know one way you can look at this as a social glue, another expression  value.
So you can look at er communication as relating to overall competence and perhaps at a stronger level than that, you could argue that erm communication determines not only the structure but also the strength and the scope of an organisation, okay?
So communication very essential, if you like, it determines the structure, the strength and the scope of an organisation.
Okay, now by the way you find this material actually covered in Arnold at all.
There's nothing in Arnold on communication so for those of you who who particularly want me to stay with Arnold, sorry this time round.
Erm but you will find quite a lot of relevant material in  and , or alternatively  and , depending on which edition you've got and and elsewhere also.
Okay, let's have a look at the basic idea of communication.
Basically what we're talking about is .
Okay, so that's the kind of basic idea.
Okay, in terms of communication.
If you've got an idea or a message to send it has to be encoded in some way then there's various mediums or media by which it can be transmitted but it's got to be decoded by the receiver for the idea or message to be understood, and there's some kind of feedback mechanism potentially from the receiver to the sender.
And we should bear in mind that there's potential noise, okay, affecting many parts of this.
Okay, well let's have a look at different forms of communication.
I think we can start of on this at this heading of er forms of communication.
Have you all got that down by the way?
Do you want to, do you want me to shut up while you write that down?
Yes you do really don't you?
I shall just look decorative for a couple of minutes .
Right, so, forms of communication then, a sub-heading.
Different forms, well let's concentrate on two, oral communication, written communication.
Okay well I think oral communication is mostly two way, that's one distinction we can make.
Written communication mostly one way.
Let let's relate this to organisation.
Do you go and tell somebody about something, or do you write them a memo?
Okay, so the memo version is pretty well one way  people write memos back but it it's a kind of one way communication if you give somebody some information in a memo, okay?
Should you be writing?
Should you be speaking to them personally?
Well research suggests that something like eighty eight percent, that's research by Klaus and Bass, Klaus and Bass nineteen eighty-eight, actually I may have got that date wrong so I'm not sure you should quote the date, anyway it's Klaus and Bass.
Eighty three percent of communication in a in a sample organisation was face to face rather than with memoranda.
The general preference was that if the message or the information was ambiguous, it was preferable to use oral forms of communication.
So if it's an ambiguous message go and tell somebody about it so it can be clarified.
On the other hand, if it was quite clear and unambiguous then a written form was preferred  Okay, now a study by Daft et al, Daft as in y'know one marble short of a whatever yeah or okay er Daft et al nineteen eighty-seven had a look at managers' use of er of these two different media and found that in general most managers were media sensitive.
What they meant by that was that managers would do the kind of thing I've just described like y'know transmit an ambiguous message orally rather than in a memo and visa versa.
However there was a y'know significant minority who were not media sensitive, who seemed to send out messages pretty well at random erm they'd use whatever medium they happened to think of at the t off the spur of the moment rather than actually relating the medium to the message if you like.
And er what they found was that the media sensitive managers were much more likely to be regarded as highly successful and sensitivity in selection of media by relating the medium to the message would seem to relate quite closely to erm y'know high performance as a manager  Let's have a look at
non-verbal behaviour.
There's a number of fairly obvious things here.
Perhaps the most obvious one is to do with dress, like how do you dress at a at a job interview, how do you dress in a particular sort of er function at work.
There's certainly amongst managers, certainly amongst male managers that there is an assumption that people wear suits, isn't there?
So you hear sometimes hear in an organisation when a manager approaches like, here come the suits  the the er.
It's very interesting working in a university, what is appropriate for university lecturers to wear.
Certainly er the higher up the the kind of er organisation at a university the tendency is to is to wear different things.
O much more complex perhaps for women as well, more choices there.
Nothing very radical to tell you about that, just to sort of mention it.
Issues about time are quite interesting also.
Er, if you look at status and length of time you get kept waiting, then the length of time you get kept waiting reflects the status differential between you and the person you're waiting on, okay?
We've all had to wait for doctors and dentists, yeah?
This is cos they tend to be high status professionals who's time is relatively precious, so that you can go to the extent of actually having waiting rooms that you can be kept hanging around in.
Erm, if you look at organisations then if you if you go and er visit somebody of low status, you tend not to be kept waiting very long at all.
Erm, medium status it may go up to more like five minutes, very high status it may be approaching ten minutes, okay?
So there is a relationship there.
Yeah?
Yes, yes, you're absolutely right.
It's it's to do with the difference if you like.
Given, let let's say y'know somebody of a status goes to see somebody of equivalent status  wait so it's it's about the distance, yeah.
okay?
Erm and it's it's quite interesting to look at that.
What else?
There's something else about use of space as well.
Certainly within universities the more senior the the member of staff the more likely they are apparently to use a desk as a barrier erm so that they sort of er y'know you see them from behind a desk, when you're at the front of the desk and they're behind the desk.
Erm if you look at er at a standard sort of table, look at a standard sort of rectangular table y'know person sitting here relative to ones sitting there, tends to be of higher status.
Indeed, if you've got groups with no status distinctions between them the person who, by chance, lands up sitting there tends to end up behaving as a leader, okay?
So there's a relationship between space, status and leadership there.
Erm you can a even look at er look at erm this sort of er non-verbal messages about organisations in terms of architecture.
That's an interesting one.
Erm, not very relevant to your course unfortunately but very interesting stuff.
If you're at all interested in that area then I have got you a reference I can give you to hand but it's  but a great deal of er architecture, certainly the thirties, forties, fifties reflected corporate status, corporate identity.
Erm if you look at er the kind of erm soviet er architecture of the thirties and you can relate that quite nicely to a kind of American corporate architecture in the fifties designed to project certain sort of things.
Erm,i there's y'know  construct architecture as any other form of er communication that must be quite an interesting thing to do.
How about, perhaps at this point, having a look at non-verbal behaviour, perhaps more broadly?
I'm gonna suggest to you that er if w if we're going to think about channels of communication then we could arguably divide up inter-personal communication to three broad sets of channels so it will will be familiar to some students already I think, er but not certainly not to many second years.
I hope not anyway.
Erm, very broadly, we can distinguish between verbal communication yes the words we choose to use inter-personally, okay, verbal communication.
No I I'd suggest perhaps a couple of categories of non-verbal communication.
Er, a category you could call, loosely, vocal and a category we could call body language perhaps, okay?
So what I want to suggest is that the second two categories I've mentioned, that's the vocal channel and the body language channel can actually be very important in communication.
What I'd like you to do now is er, just for a couple of minutes, informally with the people sitting next to you, see if you can list as many channels as you can under those second two headings, okay?
I don't want you to tell me about the messages that those channel give, okay?
Let me give you an example to start with.
Erm, under body language you mi there might be a category of er channels around the theme of gesture, okay?
Now one or two gestures have very specific meanings as
perhaps you're aware, okay?
I'm not interested in you telling me what those meaning are or coming out with kind of y'know ideas that crossing your arms means that you're defensive or anything like that.
I'm interested in the channels themselves, okay?
So I'm interested in non-verbal channels in terms of body language y'know what do you do with your body that's communicative?
And non-verbal channels in terms of voice, okay?
What is there about the voice, vocal channels that're not to do with the actual words spoken?
Two minutes then 
Okay then erm I guess that's your couple of minutes up.
Erm I hope you've lots of interesting ideas.
Let's go for the for the sort of erm the vocal bit first.
What kind of channels have you come up with in terms of vocal communication?
Yeah, intonational tone, okay?
Very very critical one, intonation of tone.
What else?
Volume, right, speed, tone, so you've got tone volume speed.
What else?
Clarity yes mhm okay go for that  I'm not fussy I mean you can .
What else?
What about what about issues around around fluency?
Okay, to do with pauses for example.
You can have you can have stuff to do with fluency.
C can you spot when a speaker is nervous?
As as students in a lecture you can tell when a lecturer is nervous.
Okay, because they stumble over their words, they mistakes yes okay?
So things about fluency.
You can it's fairly easy to distinguish between somebody who's not very fluent because there's something technically very difficult about the topic and they can't actually explain it and er and somebody who's actually very nervous so you get different kinds of of er speech errors  fluency and speech errors.
Anything else there?
Because I t I go for verbal as the actual choice of words, okay?
So can you imagine if you had a conversation with somebody from er er another country and you had no language in common at all?
You would still ha be able to have some kind of interaction but it wouldn't actually be verbal because there would be no words in common, okay?
If I give you an example.
Erm, if you may not have had to do this, you may have to in the future.
If you've got a toddler with you, a two year old and this toddler is is sort of er y'know you're looking in the shop window and this toddler's sort of thirty yards away and about to walk in front of a bus okay?
Then it doesn't matter so much what you say that stops it walking in front of the bus, it's actually how you say it.
Does that make sense?
A and think of think of, anybody here got dogs?
Or familiar with dogs?
Yeah?
You c it's not what you say to the dog, it's how you say it y'know.
It's er it's like, y'know if your dog's called Rover, it's if you want get it to pay attention, it's the way you say Rover or B M W or .
Erm okay so vocal is about the w is about how you use your voice.
Let's go on to the second category, the er the body language bit.
Who's got who's got some headings that some some channelled under body language?
Any suggestions?
Posture
Posture, thank you
Facial expression
Facial expression, very very critical one.
Facial expression, yeah
Stance
Stance yeah.
I think stance is a kind of sub-category of posture .
Posture perhaps sitting stance something else yeah
Well we've got gesture
Yeah, gesture, right  What else?
You must have thought of some more than that.
What about issues about personal space?
Social distance, yeah?
Okay, you'll find there're big er cultural differences there.
Okay, we're we're a non, in the U K as a culture we don't stand very close to people but actually women stand a lot closer to women than women to men or men to men.
Erm, touch?
It's a form of communication
Erm smell's an interesting one.
Smell tends doesn't seem to be that relevant.
I think I think er these days people take er take baths and showers quite often and you have to be pretty close to somebody before you smell them I guess, I mean I hope you do anyway .
Yeah, it's interesting that.
It used to be much more important.
Er apparently there's a story about Napoleon and not tonight Josephine stuff.
I I the way I s I think I think was it Josephine he was married to, then then she would er she would object very strongly if he had a bath before they went to bed together.
She liked him to smell really strongly so so, people have very personal smells .
You know if you're very attached to somebody, you're very attached to the smell of them.
Er yeah.
Okay,y it's true.
Okay, what else?
What else have you got er under that under the body language?
Eye contact.
Eye contact, direction of gaze, that sort of stuff.
Okay now is that sort of stuff important, do you reckon?
Is it is it important?
Yeah okay.
Just to kind of get a feel of that importance, erm let's think about some categories of communication which we may not use verbal channels for very much, okay?
Two or three categories here.
First category I suggest is is about attitude in the sense of liking, disliking.
We don't tend to go up to people and say, I like you, okay?
Very much, okay?
Imagine yourself in a night club.
D do you go to night clubs?
Ima okay, suppose you're at a night club and suppose that you really like somebody you've been dancing with.
How do you communicate to them that you really like them?
Do you go up to them and say, I like you?
It could be an interesting approach but, I mean what do you do?
I mean do you er stand nearer them?
Look at them more?
Find excuses to brush against them?
Touch yeah?
Okay, it's all done non-verbally, yeah?
And suppose suppose that you've been dancing with somebody and you really don't like them at all.
How d'you c how d'you persuade them to go away?
Well qu alright okay.
So I think a stuff about attitude, liking, disliking.
The second category would be emotion.
I d very often we don't label our emotions verbally.
We communicate how we feel non-verbally, okay?
And the third the third category would be er would be that punctuation, we we use non-verbal communication to punctuate er verbal interactions.
Y'know if you wanna have a go, you wanna say something, then you make quite subtle gestures to catch the eye of somebody and so on.
So we punctuate this stuff.
So I'm gonna suggest that extremely important for these categories of communication, maybe less important if you're dealing with er purely technical interactions, purely technical conversations.
Erm but if you're dealing with issues about human relationship then they're very very important, very powerful and er they they can make a huge difference  familiarity, sensitivity in the use of this kind of  can be very important  Okay, we'll come back to that cos I w when we come when we're actually looking at improving communication we'll come back to those issues.
Okay, let's have another heading.
Let's have a look at major influences er on communication in organisations.
I think it w basically an organisational structure is important.
Like y'know we we've mentioned organisational structure I think in the very first lecture er that idea, the idea that you've got a kind of box at the top labelled president and you've got two boxes underneath labelled vice president and you've got y'know one box goes off to sales manager y'know the sort of thing I mean, okay?
So the shape of those things can be very important and, if we're going to look at those, y'know look at communication within an organisational structure we can think about communication that goes up from the bottom of the organisational structure to the top, we can look at communication that goes down, from the top of the organisation downwards and we can look at communication that goes across, okay?
So three ways in which communications may flow, okay?
And the communications in fact will be of a quite a different nature in each of those categories.
So if you have a look at the idea of communication flowing down from the top of the structure lower down then w what's that communication going to be including?
Well I'd suggest it includes, for example, instructions, erm directions, or perhaps more bluntly, orders.
Okay so directions, instructions, orders, flowing down from the top of the structure to the bottom of the structure and perhaps also some feedback as well.
Okay, so we're looking at a flow of communication from the top of the structure to the bottom of the structure, orders, directions, instructions, feedback.
Interesting point here is, are these orders, directions, instructions, whatever, are they accurately perceived towards the bottom of the hierarchy, okay?
So there's a very interesting study by a person who's name I'm going to write on the board  okay so  or  et al nineteen ninety.
Okay, what th what er this research looked at was the accuracy of perception of communication.
Now clearly there's a distinction to be drawn  oral oral communication and written communication but they were doing this generally.
Y'know at this point not necessarily to ds distinguish  between oral and written communication.
What they found was there was actually sometimes substantial differences between what the managers thought they had communicated and what the subordinate thought they'd received, okay?
So there's a potential gap, a potential meaning gap there.
What's been said, what's been heard.
Okay now, obviously the the greater the number of channels things go through, the greater potential for for the confusion, okay?
So there's classic sort of stories about organisation where the the er president of the organisation asks somebody to investigate something and that gets translated by the vice president into sort of rather more hostile sort of thing and basically it ends up with somebody at the bottom of the pile having their ass kicked or whatever because it's been translated, or mis- translated down, okay?
Now, even where there is no mis-translation present, there's still a possibility of a gap in perception and er s this research identified that gap in in perception was associated with er with poor outcomes, okay, whatever the particular problem was, that the bigger the misperception, the worse the outcome around.
Okay, let me just finish this section then we'll take er we'll er we'll take a break to er take a break for the rest of the day actually yes .
Erm, in terms of communication up an organisation if that doesn't sound to rude but erm okay, from the bottom of the organisation to the top of the organisation, there's a hell of a lot less of it, okay?
There's far more communication flowing down than there is flowing up.
There's a very old study by Walker and Guest nineteen fifty-two and I think you might find the findings may reflect the fifties quite a lot, found that seventy percent of assembly line workers erm initiated upwards communication.
In other words, initiated communication with their supervisor erm less than once a month, okay?
So very little init initiation of communication up the hierarchy, okay?
Now this may reflect the 1950's, it may reflect er traditional manufacturing practices in ah probably in the U K. Erm, if you look at managers, manager are at a y'know, most managers are mid-point in communication hierarchies.
You'll find that  by  and Larson, I'll put that on the board for you   and Larson nineteen eighty-six, found that managers only direct fifteen percent of their communication upwards, okay?
So managers erm essentially communicate downwards, okay?
They may be communicated with from above but the communication that init they initiate only fifteen percent of that communication is initiated upwards.
speculate why not, of course.
Why t why c why do they not communicate upwards and I think essentially people it in subordinate positions are about managing the impressions others have of them and tend to believe the notion, no matter how true it is, that er that organisations may have a shoot the messenger philosophy, yes?
Nobody likes to be the bearer of bad news.
You don't want to be the one who tells your boss that er a production line has broken down again or y'know that they've failed to meet their sales targets for the third month running, whatever it is, okay?
People like to present good news, like to present themselves favourably and of course organisations, many organisations, do in practice have a y'know shoot the messenger y'know if the messenger brings bad news, shoot the messenger er philosophy.
Y'know as a manager you don't want to hear problems, you don't want to hear bad news, you don't want to hear disaster.
It's very easy then of course to punish the person er who communicates that with you er which ultimately can can er totally divorce an organisation from the reality of what it's actually doing so that kind of philosophy, very destructive in terms of er effective communication.
Okay well next week we'll carry on with this material, looking at communication networks.
Now I'm sure you'd like to know what I'm gonna be teaching next week apart from this so if you'd like to read ahead, we'll be looking at decision-making in organisations, okay?
If you'd like to try and find that.
I don't think that's in Arnold  Sorry?
Oh, it's not next week.
It's assessment next week 
sorry about that.
Can I speak to  as well please?
So can I speak to to  and to  if they're here?
gotta get through with a prayer now.
What do you think of the new room then?
It's warmer.
I don't like the layout very much though.
Now this is, as far as I'm concerned, this is the last lecture you're gonna get off of me.
We've got a seminar coming up and I think I'll arrange to show Jeannie.
Er, hands up who saw the Horizon programme on Jeannie  Okay, so so you don't want to see it then do you really?
You you
You only saw the f oh now oh right so, hands up who saw it all the way through and would not want to see it again as part of the seminar.
One two three four.
So four of you don't want to see it.
What shall we do then?
We can arrange the seminar to have different slots so the ones who don't want to watch Jeannie we can discuss erm, what would you like to discuss?
I'll come up with a topic
Wah, we're not doing that.
We're doing that today.
Okay, so I'm covering the exam stuff today.
But you can use the Jeannie slot as erm a revision thing, you come and have a chat with me about the course, or we can show the video.
What I'll do is arrange to show the video for the seminar in case you haven't got any questions, yeah?
You normally haven't anyway.
I mean you don't normally don't want to talk to me.
aah
Play to the sympathy if nothing else.
Okay, now what I've got here are two handouts crumpled or stapled together as one.
Now these represent two lectures on group processes that're given to the first year social psychology students at Aston.
These aren't my lecture notes they I cribbed them off the social psychologist and made copies last night.
Some of you will only have two sheets.
Erm, if that's the case, you'll notice that the two copies that you've got have the writing on the back.
So some of them have got both sides, some of them have got a mixture.
Some of you will only have three sheets, which the last one will have it on two sides.
So whi what I'm trying to say to you is that you should have four sides of written text, whether it's on two pages, three or four  What I will do is go through the headings and give you a very brief description of that so that you know roughly what's in them.
I'm not gonna spend a I mean there's a good couple of hours talking here and w I'm gonna use the time more productively I think talking about other aspects of the course.
Now, starts off, most of it taken from social psychology text books.
Er  and  is the sort of standard one that we were using at Aston when these handouts were written erm but you should find that the same sorts of things are discussed in  or in Atkinson.
I think  has probably got a better coverage on groups.
I'm not sure but I think it has.
It turns out that trying to define what a group is is quite difficult a what distinguishes a group of people from a mob of people er a group of people queuing at a bus stop, are they a group well you don't think so normally.
So erm the first paragraph there deals with erm how people have defined groups.
No definition is spot on really, you can always find difficulties with it but they do sort of discuss it in the first paragraph.
The next one is saying, okay, do people change their behaviour in the presence of others?
Well really that's l by and large what groups is all about so it's clearly that they do and there's some cases here of sort of cyclists cycling harder and faster when they've got they're training with other cyclists or erm when they're training against the clock.
Some sort of buzz words known as social facilitation and social inhibition which come from the work of Allport.
Looking at how people's behaviour or performance is either improved or detracted from in the presence of others.
Right so we talk about social facilitation and inhibition.
It's an all embracing term actually and it could be taken across many aspects.
You can link it up with the work on that was done on human performance.
It turns out that if you're gonna give a talk or something and it's a talk that's well rehearsed and well known, you give it better when there's a lot of people in a passive audience than when there's one or two.
However, if it's something you're not very confident and sure about, quite often the presence of other people makes you fall to bits.
If you ever try to do a ha a demonstration for anybody erm or a group of people involving a sort of manual skill, you find that it goes to pieces if it's not a very well rehearsed skill, whereas you find you can actually get very your performance is a lot better when you've got an audience if you know the skill very well.
You find it in motor skills.
I think that's mentioned in there as well.
Erm distinction made when you're sort of talking about audiences th the sort of participating audience where we interact and there's the one where I sort of talk to you and you're passive  that.
Groups have been sort of defined in different types of groups.
People try to classify what sorts of group or characteristics there are of groups and you find that people look at group size, let's go through the list, group size, communication networks, roles and expectations, norms and rules, okay well  roles and expectations, norms and rules slightly different.
So what it's talking about there is how you can actually define a group.
I mean if you allow everybody in the group to have free access to everybody else in the group you may get a sort of different characteristic erm than if you only allow certain hierarchy to exist within the group, certain lines of communication.
A lot of work done in the fifties by a chap called  and perhaps  I think is was a later work based on the early work of  , I can't remember exactly.
Okay, it starts  so what we're talking there in text books you'll find they define groups in terms of their structure and their composition and they're the sorts of things that they usually pick out  Okay, there's a lot of work then on interaction in groups.
You can link this also up with the work that was done on conformity with the Ash experiments.
D'you remember the  video where you had a group of people all agreeing different sizes and group size was an important aspect of erm whether or not people tended to conform.
So you can link that up with the earlier work that we did.
There's a list of references there.
Well they're there for just covering the ones that're in the handout.
I don't expect you to actually read any.
Go and read if you're gon a good introductory si social psychology book like  and 

Colleagues.
Minimum wage.
I propose to take composite twenty followed by motion three three four and composite twenty one.
Erm, the executive are accepting all these motions but on a couple of them want to put in a speaker with a statement and er after twenty one will  to put that statement to the C E C. I now call composite twenty abolition of Wages Councils South Western Region to move, G M B Scotland to second.
Priority in debate to Southern and Northern regions so if all the additional speakers could come down to the front, be very much obliged.
South Western region to move 
Chair, Conference,, Clothing and Textile.
South Western Region.
Moving composite twenty.
This Tory government's relentless attacks on the poor of this country go on day after day.
V A T on heating is the latest, and now we have rumours of V A T on food.
Yet still they persist on the abolition of the Wages Councils.
By stopping the Wages Councils this government, through the Employment Secretary, now it's David Hunt, and we in Wales know enough of David Hunt.
They are turning their backs on the low paid workers.
Taking away the protection which the Wages Councils provide is the latest step in the bullion offensive against the poorest in society.
It is quite clear getting rid of the Wages Councils would result in lower wages, poor jobs, and a move away from equal pay.
In nineteen ninety one, six thousand workplaces were found to be underpaying one or more workers.
In nineteen ninety one, twelve thousand eight hundred and twelve workers were found to be underpaid.
In nineteen ninety one, arrears totalling one and a half million pounds was due to those twelve thousand eight hundred and twelve workers.
In nineteen ninety one, of those six thousand employers found to be underpaying, just seventeen were prosecuted.
All were found guilty.
This was the highest number of convictions in one year since the present record began in nineteen forty five.
The government's response?
Is to abolish the law that embarrasses the employers and gives minimum protection of low paid working people.
What an appalling set of figures.
But still, we have an appalling government.
A government that believes we are out of recession, but is still making Britain the Taiwan of Europe.
This Union needs no convincing, nor does the Labour Party, of the need to retain the Wages Council.
The Labour Party must continue to reject the tax on the low paid, the young, the elderly, and needs to commit itself to a restoration of the Wages Councils, an increase in the power of the Wages Councils, and an improvement in the Wages Inspectorate, to ensure that all employers who break the minimum wages legislation be detected and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
Conference, there are two and a half million low paid workers in Britain, covered by Wages Councils.
Our own clothing and textile section are an exam pardon me.
We cannot allow the protection to be taken away from them.
Colleagues, I gave you twelve thousand eight hundred and twelve reasons for you not only to support by raising your hands, but by actively supporting your fellow members in their fight to retain the Wages Councils and to guard and protect their wages.
I move.
G M B Scotland 
, G M B Scotland.
President, Congress.
It is hardly credible that with all the economic problems facing this country, the latest Tory brainwave to aid recovery and keep growth is the abolition of the Wages Council.
They wrongly believe that things can be put right by operating a framework where those on low pay can be paid even lower wages  excuse me.
Congress, we know that low pay never saves jobs and never will.
The wages simulate growth as to put the unemployed back to work and have a high paid flexible work force.
This government is intent on isolating Britain in Europe as the only country with no minimum guaranteed wages, and a producer for low cost products.
In Scotland a quarter of a million of the workf workers would be affected by this Tor er, sorry, this Tory policy, mainly part-time working women and ethnic groups.
We must recognize this policy for what it is, to turn Britain into the sweatshop of Europe.
It is the duty of this Congress to cam to campaign and oppose this greedy Tory government and its policies at every turn.
Remember, trade union and public opposition forced the re-think in the poll tax.
We can do the same again.
I second.
Southern Region 
President, Congress, supporting composite twenty.
Congress, Wages so Councils set minimum rates of pay in some of U K's lowest paying industries.
They provide over two point five million, three quarters of whom are women with protection, industries such as clothing and textiles, shops, hairdressers, and leisure services are all protected by the Councils.
Over the last few years the t Tory government has reduced the amount of wages inspectors.
Each now is responsible for over thirty four thousand workers.
Instead of dealing with problems of low paid and increasing the number of inspectors, the government is going to abolish them completely.
Congress, as the majority of low paid workers are women, the abolition of Wages Councils is direct discrimination.
Although more women are j t joining trade unions, they have to continue to work in places where their bosses are opposed to union membership.
It may even be impossible to gain full recognition.
Laws are needed to protect women's rates of pay and ensure they get a fair day's pay for a fair day's work.
Of course, not only women are in danger of being unprotected.
Millions of others will be openly exploited by unscrupulous employers.
Th the economy can only suffer  shortages and low productivity as a result of poverty pay.
We must support the introduction of a minimum wage and fight against the abolition of Wages Councils.
I urge you to please support this motion.
Northern Region.
Oh right, what happened to the Southern Region?
Did they waive their rights?
Ah  You've got to have eyes in the back of your head here  I'm telling ya.
, Southern Region.
Speaking in support of composite motion twenty.
Conference, President.
The Wage Councils were set up to establish legally enforceable minimum wages for employees and associated trades and prevented unfair competition .
The Wage Council provided a useful basis for pay determination, especially in industries where there is little collective bargaining.
The vast majority of the estimated two and a half million employees covered by the Wage Council work in the retail hot retail, hotel and catering, and textile industries.
Many of these employees are women often working part-time.
The scrapping of the Wage Councils will mean that millions of working people will be open to exploitation by unscrupulous employers.
In the near future employers will be able to pay even lower wages and employees will no will have no legal right to challenge low pay.
Many of our comrades in the hotel and catering industry work long and unsocial hours for as little as two ninety two an hour, a hundred and fourteen pound for a thirteen ho thirty nine hour week.
Conference, who can survive on a hundred and fourteen pound a week?
Many hotel workers don't belong to trade unions.
It has always been difficult to organize hotel workers by the very nature of their industry but the time has now come for those very workers to join the G M B so that collectively we can fight the exploitation of low paid workers.
Conference, I ask you to support this motion that calls for a publicity campaign to name those employers and establishments that exploit th their staff so they can make a fat profit, and to update the hotel list.
If we really mean what we say we should blacklist those es establishments that refuse to recognize trade unions.
After all, why we should we as trade unionists contribute to the ill-gotten gains of exploiters of human beings.
Conference, please support
Motion three three four Wages Councils.
Lancashire to move 
, Lancashire Region, moving motion two three four.
October the first nineteen ninety three is almost certainly the date the Wages Councils will be abolished.
The abolition of the Wages Councils will not nothing less than rob two point seven million workers, mainly women workers, on minimum wage protection.
Some employers will cease the opportunity as a chance to pay less and thereby making it even more difficult to make ends meet.
Hotels and catering, clothing, retail, are three of the main Wages Council's industries, of which we have a large membership.
The G M B currently negotiates at national level in industries as collective bargaining, but within the scope of the Wages Council.
One could try and argue all the Wages Councils are doing in effect are rubber-stamping a joint motion agreed in advance between employers and unions.
However, if the Wages Councils were abolished there would be no guarantee that a negotiated minimum rate would be applied.
The result could be pay freezes, even pay cuts.
Employers must simply abandon the national agreement altogether, or the employers may simply ban the national agreement altogether, as has happened in other industries like cotton spinning and weaving.
Abolishing the Wages Councils would be a green light to sweatshops, a direct attack on the lowest paid.
Wages undercutting is one of the possible results of abolition.
We have already seen premium rate pay like double time for Sunday working attacked after statutory controls on them were removed in nineteen eighty six.
The same attack would undoubtedly be made on basic rates when the Wages Councils are removed altogether.
Employers who claim they can stand aside from com from com from competitive pressure to undercut are truly on one.
The Wages Council's rates are currently used as a reference point in deciding what pay levels should be.
Without it there could be a free for all and if abolition goes through the employers may well find themselves having to resort to some form of cooperative or wages club in its place.
There is a place for minimum rates of pay.
If there are no minimum rates of setting arrangements then standards will slip and conditions will deteriorate.
Abolition of the Wages Council could seriously affect equality of pay between the sexes.
A report by academics for the T U C shows there is no case for abolition.
It is northing more than another attack aimed at the trade unions under the government's Trade Union Reform and Employment Rights Bill, and takes absolutely no account of the additional hardship it will impose on our members.
A big proportion of them are women.
Basic rates set by the Wages Councils apply equally to women and men.
Over four fifths, that's two million, of these w of those who the wages c wages are protected by the Wages Councils are women and as there would seem no point in abolition unless the wages were gonna fall, then it is women who will suffer disproportionately, along with another vulnerable group, single parents.
I urge Conference to condemn this uncaring cynical government's decision to abolish the Wages Council and call for the establishment of a National Wages Council.
I se to set minimum rates of pay for all workers in all industries and services.
I move this motion.
Thanks 
, seconding motion three four four.
I'm not gonna go over t what my colleague has said but what I do wanna know is when are the Labour Party gonna get hold of some issue and make some sort of mileage out of it, because we've got a number of sponsored MPs and we can't get 'em off the doorstep at election time, but when it comes about doing summat for us and consider the fact that it affects many many people and we talk about the links that the Labour Party and the trade union has, I think the Labour Party's already severed 'em, as far as I'm concerned.
Support the motion.
Composite twenty one, Minimum Wage, Lancashire Region to move 
, Lancashire Region.
President, sisters and brothers.
Moving composite twenty one Minimum Wage.
Congress, if a few more voters got off their backsides last year and gone out and voted, and voted Labour, there'd be no need for this motion at all because it's Labour Party policy anyway.
If ever the poor low paid need a decent wage it's now.
The new jobs being created are mostly part-time, low paid, unskilled, with no promotion prospects and few employment rights.
Yes, you've guessed it.
The rising jobs are for women.
In eleven U K regions more women than we men now have jobs.
Jobs on the cheap.
British Home Stores and Burtons have sacked thousands of full-time staff and replaced them with part-timers.
What they call them is .
You just wo get called in when it's busy and work between eight and sixteen hours.
You've gotta be in the job five years opposed to two years to get protection against unfair sacking, sick pay, redundancy pay, maternity leave.
If you work less than these hours you have no rights at all.
The Tories encourage low pay.
They're happy for Britain to be a  at the bottom of the income scale with rich rewards for those on top income.
It's estimated that over ten million people now earn less than the Council of Europe's decency threshold for wages.
Sixty eight percent of ad adult earnings, an increase of twenty five percent since nineteen seventy nine.
And at the same time the income divide between the top twenty percent of men and the bottom twenty percent is now greater than it were hundred years ago.
Shame.
Nearly one million people have now had to claim mean-tested benefits in order to top up low pay.
Independent analysts have estimated that a minimum wage set at three pound forty an hour would add one point eight percent to the total labour costs in Britain.
But wages are only one element of overall costs.
In reality, it would mean just a rise of nought point two percent on overall costs.
In France where minimum wage have ri risen dramatically a study found no si ni no effects on wage infl inflation or unemployment.
The introduction of a national mo minimum wage set at three pound forty an hour would directly benefit four point five million workers.
Seventy eight percent of these, that's three point five million, will be women.
Fifty nine percent of this, that's four point five million, will be working part-time.
The ex Chancellor will gain a billion pounds through National Insurance and reduced benefits.
Seventy thousand'll be removed off housing benefit and twenty nine thousand from rent rebates.
Forty thousand from family credit and two hundred thousand people will be  means-tested benefit.
Please support this composite.
I move.
Northern Region to second 
Mister President, Congress,, Northern Region, seconding composite twenty one.
Congress, after fourteen years of power the Tories have are still hell bent on ruining the lives of low paid working class.
More than five million full-time workers are low paid, and with the significant growth in numbers of part-time workers, the amount of low paid employees is increasing.
Women in particular are concentrated at the bottom of their occupational hierarchy of the least rewarding jobs.
Colleagues, of the Western economies, Britain is almost alone in having no legal minimum wage or equivalent.
Surely, at a time when the U K's economy position is disastrous, even the Tory government should see that low wages are a drain on the nation's resources as they reduce industry's productivity potential.
Just as investors expect a high return for their capital, we should expect working people to receive a fair return for their labour.
It is well known that foreign companies such as Nissan,, Mitsibushi, all come to British, all come to Britain because British workers are amongst the lowest paid in Europe.
British labour is cheap.
Congress, the time has come to demand change, to demand that British workers enjoy the rights enjoyed by workers across the rest of Europe.
This demand is not unreasonable.
The demand is a fair day's pay for a fair day's work.
A national minimum wage.
Mister President, I second.
Thank you.
Does Liverpool wish to put in a speaker?
No.
Thanks very much.
Colleagues, I call  to put the C E C position 
, C E C. Congress, the C E C is asking you to support composite twenty, support motion three three four with qualification, and support composite twenty one.
The Conservatives are determined to abolish the Wages Council.
It's absolute disgrace.
They're hell belt in, hell-bent in removing the last statutory protection against the poverty pay for workers in the U K. They will make us the only country in Europe without some minimum standards.
Most of the two point five million workers affected are women.
Delegates, the abolition of the Wages Council is an employment ch an employers' chapter to create sweatshops.
What civilized government can really believe that the basic rate in my factory of two pounds seventy nine P per hour is too high?
Could they clothe, feed and house a family on that kind of money?
I don't think not.
There's no economic justification for abolition.
Many small employers want to keep Wages Councils.
What we, we workers need is better management, not lower pay.
Many more workers will be forced, by low pay, to claim benefits to make up their income, when they want to earn a decision wage.
That also means we will be subsidizing bad employers through our taxes and the fiddling factory owners will undermine the decent conditions we have fought for over the years.
We must continue to campaign on this issue and support taking legal action in Europe against the attack on women's pay.
Motion three three four also deals with the abolition of the Wages Council and the C E C would like you to ask you to support it, but with qualification, that a national minimum wage rather than a national Wages Council is likely to be the best way to set a minimum rate of pay.
To show our continuous commitment to fighting lo low pay the C E C ask you to support composite twenty, motion three three four and composite twenty one.
Thank you.
Thanks very much .
Composite motion er twenty to the vote.
All those in favour?
Against?
That's carried.
Motion three three four.
All those in favour?
Against?
That's carried.
Composite motion twenty one.
All those in favour?
Against?
That's carried.
Colleagues, trade union Rights.
There are a number of motions in this particular section.
They are as follows.
Composite twenty two, composite twenty three, motion three four two, motion three four three, motion three four six.
Without exception the C E C are recommending you to accept them all but there is at least one where we're accepting with a qualification.
Following the debate I will call  to put the C E C position.
I now call composite motion twenty two.
Trade Union Reform and Employment Rights Bill.
Yorkshire Region to move.
Lancashire Region to second and colleagues if, if all the other movers and seconders and the C E C speaker would all come down to the front it would help us enormously with time  Yorkshire Region to move.
Is it?
Okay, alright .
, Lancashire Region, proposing composite motion twenty two.
Congress, this legislation is th yet another attack on the workers' rights, wages and ability to organize.
It is yet another attack on trade unions.
It is a sick government that is proud of the fact that it's not signed up for a Social Chapter.
It is even more sickening when official statistics show that one in four of all those suffering from poverty wages in Europe live and work in Britain.
What does this legislation do for the low paid in Britain?
I'll tell you what it does comrades, it kicks 'em right in the teeth.
This legislation scraps the Wages Council.
Mind you, not known for their generous pay awards, these Councils according to the government are a main obstacle to economic hope and prosperity in Britain.
The G M B speaks for these workers, and we know that abolishing the Wages Council will not provide any hope or prosperity for millions of low paid workers all over Britain.
The Civil Liberties Organization recently condemned the British government for violating international standards on the trade union rights.
This leg legislation carries out further attacks on trade union, encouraging members of the public to sue strikers.
Even Howard Davies of the C B I called this unhelpful.
This legislation forces members to authorize on an annual basis their employer to deduct subs from their pay.
The reason for this is very simple.
It's to make it unreasonably difficult for unions to collect their subs and undermine collective organization.
Again, this legislation attracts the Bridlington procedures that facilitate into the union membership disputes.
The reason is obvious.
It is, it is to support unions like the U D M and encourage scab unions.
The only progressive things in this legislation are those demanded by European laws.
On maternity rights the government has weakened the rights available to British workers and on  they are resisting reorganization of  cases.
This legislation is nothing to do with employment rights.
It is about weakening rights and are attacking trade unions.
Congress, I move.
Thanks  
President, Congress,, Yorkshire North Derbyshire Region, seconding composite twenty two.
This Bill follows fr on from a series of attacks on the trade union movement and working people over the last fourteen years.
These new measures will do nothing to improve industrial relations in this country.
It is typical of this Tory government, a government that has not had a constructive idea all the time it has been in office, but thinks that union bashing is the only answer to the country's problems, that thinks it is the only way to unite the Tory troops.
They honestly do not care, care about this country.
They do not care about the unemployed.
They do not care about the sick.
They do not care about our future.
They care about only one thing, about themselves and th that's staying in power.
This is hanging on on to the reins of government and they are prepared to destroy the country in the process.
The legislation is not only unnecessary but it is, it could set industrial relations back years in this country.
At a time when more progressive countries are facilitating improved levels of communications between all sides of industry, this government sets out to cause disharmony and to create friction.
More sensible governments place the onus on solving problems through social partnership, through improving standards, through actually encouraging training and recognizing skills.
In the midst of this terrible recession this government can think of nothing better than scrapping Wages Councils and introducing more union curbs.
These new measures will actively encourage unscrupulous employers to further exploit over two and a half million low paid in this country, mostly of them women.
These measures make Britain an employment dumping ground, a country that pays its workers low wages and offers its workers no protection.
Probably the largest attack is centred on the deduction from wages or check-off legislation.
This is not unusual these days from employees while blaming the economic situation to refuse an increase in pay.
But, in order to maintain the services to our members, unions will probably still have to increase rates at an annual basis.
Imagine the situation where employers are now obliged to notify employee members of that rise in contribution and also reminding them that they have the right to withdraw their authorization.
So not only do we have the challenge every three years to ensure that our members renew check-off but we will have in all probability through a similar process on an annual basis.
What a drain on valuable time and resources.
Colleagues, this composite calls for the immobilization of the union's many resources to campaign against the vicious and unnecessary legislation.
It refers to G M, G M B sponsored MPs and MEPs.
We demand that they defend our interests, both in Westminster and Eur European Parl Parliament, but we must realize that until the electorate of this country vote in a Labour government, as I am sure they will do in the near future, no later, we will have a w workplace campaigns, we'll have workplace campaigns to educate and inform our members.
We are good at organizing and organizing we'll do.
Colleagues, support this composite.
Composite motion twenty three to be moved by Midlands 
President, Congress,, Midlands and East Coast Region, moving composite twenty three.
Congress, in moving this composite I have no intention of delivering a history lesson.
We're all painfully aware of our individual employment situations have changed for the worse over the past fourteen years of Tory government.
As each slice of anti-trade union legislation has gone onto the statute book we've become less able to effectively represent our membership.
We have witnessed the massive growth in unemployment, a huge increase in the number of part-time and home workers, many of them accepting a grotesquely low rate of pay.
The decline in real earnings of all industrial workers is reflected in the growth of overtime in every industry.
Twelve members of the European Community moved towards the standardization of workers' rights as contained in the Social Chapter of the Maastricht Treaty.
John Major's government gallops proudly in the opposite direction.
At a time when only one in five Conservative voters think that there is a need for further anti-union legislation, the government is pushing through the Trade Union Reform and Employment Rights Bill.
The preceding composite has focused our attention on the effects of the forthcoming legislation.
It is strange to consider that were it not for the intervention of Conservative industrialists, the proposals in this Bill could have been far worse.
Lord Prior, figurehead at G E C, and former Tory Minister, argued against the government's original proposal that the employee's authorization of check-off facilities should be on a yearly basis.
Such a proposal, he concluded, would be unworkable from the employer's point of view.
He also indirectly supported the Bridlington Agreement by stating that employers preferred single union deals.
The Tories have stopped short of making trade union membership illegal but is it legal to punish trade union members financially through selective redundancies, and as collective agreements are cancelled through offering inferior individual contracts and withholding pay rises?
The Tories attempt to justify their punitive legislation by stating that industrial disputes affect economic growth.
During the past twenty five years Italy has had the highest strike rate in Europe.
During that same period of time Italy's average growth in industrial production has been four percent, compared to the U K's one point nine.
The Tories would also that curtailing trade union rights is an important factor in attracting foreign investment.
During the first eleven years of Tory government approximately twenty thousand jobs per year were created by foreign-owned companies.
Compare that to the millions who joined the unemployed register.
Congress, the very least we can ask of the Labour Party is for a total commitment to the repeal of all anti-trade union legislation enacted since nineteen seventy nine, and a commitment to sign the Social Chapter of the Maastricht Treaty.
Only then can we begin to repair the damage caused since the Tories came to power.
We can then effectively return to fighting for the improved quality of life of all our members.
President, I move.
Thanks very much.
G M B Scotland to second, G M B Scotland to second.
President, Congress,, G M B Scotland, seconding composite twenty three.
In the last fifteen years we've been a country where law had little to do with Labour relations.
Britain has become a country where almost every aspect of industrial relations are now covered by legal restraints.
Although we should remember this discussing this motion today that the British state has never been averse or slow to use the law to subjugate working men and women.
However, the reason that the contemporary attacks are different is that the shackling of trade unions was an integral part in Margaret Thatcher's economic package and if the only reason for  this legislation was because it was part of a failed economic strategy then that in itself should be enough, but the real effect of anti-trade union legislation should be examined in the context of a wider social and industrial parameter, and if we take just one Act, the Employment Act of nineteen eighty, we can get some idea of the effect of Tory employment legislation.
Six and seven of that Act increased the limits for unfair dismissal from twenty six weeks to two years.
Section eight helped to introduce short-term contracts  section nine removed the minimum basic award t for compensation for unfair dismissal.
Section fourteen reduced the time period for entitlement of guaranteed payments and, perhaps worst of all, sections eleven twelve and thirteen on maternity rights affected the rights of women to return to work.
Of course, this Act was followed by those of eighty two, eighty four, eighty eight, eighty nine, ninety, ninety one, ninety two and ninety three.
All of them are equally vicious and vin vindictive.
But we can see from the nineteen eighty Act that.
despite its protestations, that it speaks in the name of individuals by shredding employment protection and undermining collectivism.
This government undermines each and every worker.
The truth is that acting in is isolation workers simply cannot recognize their rights against the superior powers of employers and of capital.
Ultimately trade unions are the workers only social protection.
There's a very succinct quote about law by Oliver Goldsmith and he puts it really into perspective and he says, laws ground the poor and rich men rule the law.
It's time to get these laws off the backs of the working class.
Support the composite.
Does Birmingham wish to put a speaker in?
No
No.
Thanks very much.
Colleagues, motion three four two.
Labour Movement Media Campaign.
Midland Region to move 
President, Congress,, Midlands and East Coast Region.
Today, we've had two examples of the media campaign.
Timex in Scotland.
What do we know about the Timex dispute in Scotland?
I personally don't know a lot about it apart from the fact that Arthur Scargill went up there and there was a bit of excitement.
But it made the national press because Arthur was up there and there was a bit of shouting and scuffling.
John mentioned the Burnsall dispute.
I've never heard of that one at all.
But by looking at this document here, it would appear there's been more violence committed there against lawful pickets and yet that doesn't make the national press.
Two examples of bias in the press.
The Labour im ownership of the mass media tends to be concentrated in the hands of a few companies.
Not just, not just publishing but also broadcasting in cinemas.
I quote from  the sixth of July nineteen eighty seven.
On all three continents where Mr Murdoch rules his titles support businessmen, governments and their ambitions.
It is an awesome power which threatens our democracy.
It is not simply because Mr Murdoch interferes with editorial policy, which he does, but because his staff, from the moment they are employed, know what is expected of them.
They know what to write and how to write, and if they do not they will be out the front door before they can pick up their hats and coats.
End quote.
Awesome power indeed.
Labour should not get elected.
Kinnock cannot be trusted.
Too many U-turns.
Kinnock too lightweight and a clown, slipping on the beach.
Labour would do better with John Smith as a leader.
Labour hold victory rally in Sheffield before election.
The bias at times is obvious.
At others more subtle.
Television interviews.
Get the politician or the industrial leader against a bi a good background, own office, bit of make up, comfortable in his own surroundings.
Interview the trade union leader in the street.
Traffic, unflattering angles, our  knows about this a very subtle way 
you know what they're laughing at?
You know what they're laughing at?
A very subtle way of colouring people's views.
Indeed, leading up the General Election, one tabloid paper said truth, not propaganda, and it ran a series of articles each day de doing features on the main Parties, to give a fair and balanced view, but also running other features claiming nothing wrong with the N H S, banking systems and other high profile problems.
But then, on the day of the election, they said, we have given you all the facts but on balance advise you to v vote for John Major.
Bias?
What bias?
There are out there people of thirty plus who have never known a Labour government, who only know what they see and read.
We cannot afford to wait t a few months before the next election.
We need now to get our act together.
Unions put out newspapers, many put out more than one.
We need an urgent review, maybe less papers but more information on rights lost and what Labour policies are for the future.
Some of these thirty plus never had the rights so how do they know what have gone?
Questions need answering.
What is the Social Charter?
Why huge job losses if we have a minimum wage?
Why would a maximum forty eight, forty eight hour week lose jobs?
It's up to us to inform them.
Fewer, but better, papers.
Bright snappy leaflets for notice boards.
Lord Northcliffe once wrote, God made people read so that I could fill their brain with facts and later tell them whom to love and whom to hate and what to think.
Well we need to make people think and we need to make them care.
Support motion three four two.
I move.
Thank you .
A seconder for three four two?
President, Congress,, Midlands and East Coast Region, seconding motion three four two.
Congress, as you know, our Union supports a free press but would like better rights of redress.
Let me give you an example of the misuse of the press.
The Sun published a front page lead stating that a Labour London borough had banned the teaching of Baa Baa Black Sheep as racist.
This had been replaced by Baa Baa Green Sheep.
This story was completely untrue and was successfully challenged in front of the Press Council.
The correction was printed in a small two centimetre box hidden in well inside the paper.
Other countries such as America allow papers to have a political leaning in terms of editorials etcetera.
But actual stories must be balanced and if not, the correction has to be the same, must have the same prominence in the original, as the original, article.
Why won't this government adopt a similar law for this country?
Now, one of the successes that the media's had, if you can call it a success, is to link socialism and losers together.
The trouble is, the media is able to influence the public and unfortunately influential people in the trade union and labour movements, and maybe they believe the propaganda that socialism is dead and respond accordingly.
That's the media, the power of the media.
What is needed from you Congress is to fight these distortions and to take back the front page headlines and make sure that the headlines are accurate, fair and truthful.
I second motion three four two.
Three four three Lancashire Region to move 
, Lancashire Region, speaking on motion three four three.
The anti-trade union laws which we face in October are just another attempt by this government to wipe out socialism and break the trade union movement.
We must demand that these laws be abolished because if this government has its way, the working man will have gone back one hundred years.
Together with the abolition of the Wage Councils and the minimum wage, the working man will find himself at the mercy of the unscrupulous bosses.
The laws have already crippled the working people throughout the U K. We watched unions being taken apart and what has the leadership done?
Nothing.
Get up front.
Attack these laws.
We will start to rebul rebuild the movement brick by brick.
Only by being united will we defeat this government.
promised to fight for the miners.
Three hundred thousand marched in London, hundred thousand elsewhere across Britain, supported by millions.
The tragedy is that  didn't carry the fight through.
I believe what goes around comes around, and our day will come.
No more oppression, no more shackles, no more exploitation.
We must start to fight back now and the G M B should be at the for forefront.
I say fight the laws, fight this government, fight for the survival of socialism and the trade union movement.
I move.
Mister President, Congress,, Lancashire Region, seconding motion three four three.
I believe, brothers and sisters, at this Conference, we must decide whether we're gonna take away from here back to our members any credibility.
I don't imp intend to preach to the converted but what I do intend to say to anyone in this hall that's either indifferent or complacent or just too idle to do anything than let this motion drift by them, that if we don't get together on this issue to get the message over to our national officers and in turn the T U C, that if we don't stand and fight for the right to uphold the basic principles of what I believe to be trade unionism, that is the right to withdraw labour, the right to protect our brothers and sisters from oppressive employers, the right to command decent conditions and fair pay without fair reprisal.
If we don't make a stand now then all of us in this hall will be a living, breathing testament to the betrayal of all those that have gone before us and we'll leave nothing for anybody coming in the future.
As a works convenor, I work along twenty shop stewards, and I can tell this Congress that the message that they've given to me from the people from the people that have elected them, is that they're sick and tired of the perpetual bleating of the T U C about how they have to abide by the laws, when the only laws that are there are the laws that are bringing this movement down.
There comes a time when natural justice supersedes any law made by any government, and that time's now.
No longer the excuse of keeping low profile   actions, hoping for a Labour government because if we haven't got the guts to stand up and fight the government that made these laws, then we've got no right to challenge a future Labour government that inherits 'em.
Brothers and sisters, I say to you that the message that must leave this Conference is one that says to all trade unionists, we will fight any oppressive legislation used against us.
All our brothers and sisters, when they need us, whatever the cost, wherever the place, we need no one to do the job for us.
We won't wait any longer.
We must say to our officers now, today, don't sit back and see the life blood squeezed out of our union.
Show this government something, by your example, that they haven't got, and that's strong leadership.
The leadership that the T U C have starved us of for over ten years.
And give us back the pride and the credibility that we once took for granted as trade unionists but we allowed to slip away from us, and make us a force to be reckoned with, and send this government a message, we'll never allow anyone at Westminster to tell us how to run the G M B, we'll never allow anyone at Westminster to prevent us from protecting our brothers and sisters and we'll no never ever allow anyone at Westminster to defeat the trade union movement.
I second the motion.
Motion three four six Southern Region 
Congress, Mister President,, Southern Region, moving motion three four six.
Colleagues, the de-recognition and non-recognition of trade unions in the U K has fast become the central challenge to and for the trade union movement, particularly as this government is committed to accelerating the de-recognition process.
This creeping destruction of workers' rights has spread rapidly from journalists to printers, from tanker drivers to docks, telecom managers to mines, and lecturers to insurance staff.
Slowly but surely the rights of trade union reps are being eroded.
In some cases, incentives are being given by management to workers who disassoc disassociate themselves from the unions, leading to hostility and antagonism within the workplace between workers who have traditionally been united in furthering industrial relations.
Trade union de-recognition is having effect of reducing the solidarity of workers and of reducing rights built up over a hundred years of trade union movement.
And the government is proud of its achievement.
In fact, it is so proud that it now boasts at a European level of the cheap U K labour costs and the lack of workers' rights.
Two months ago the British government took out advertisements in regional newspapers in Germany encouraging business to come to Britain to take advantage of low labour costs compared to elsewhere in the E C. The advertisement proudly noted that the labour cost index for Britain is one hundred, compared to one seventy eight in Germany.
In another publication, circulated by the D T I to foreign embassies, the government boasts and I quote, new labour laws have been introduced so that employers are now under no statutory obligation to recognize any union.
Colleagues, if this government is so blatantly prepared to sell out its own workers in such a public manner, then there will surely be no limit to the steps they will be prepared to take to further reduce union power.
We must fight the challenge for what it is.
A direct attack on the fundamental freedoms and rights of workers to organize themselves collectively.
But social dumping is but one example of the way in which the European spirit has been abused by this government.
Unscrupulous employers have found new ways of sidestepping European social directives which depend on having union representatives in the workplace.
By de-recognizing these representatives, employers can effectively ignore their obligations in Europe and thereby deny workers' rights accepted as basic conditions in the eleven other member states.
Colleagues, union de-recognition strikes at the very heart of the trade union movement, and in preparing to face this challenge, the G M B must be at the forefront of the fight.
Congress, I move.
Is there a seconder for three four six?
Congress, I second motion three four six.
The nineteen eighty Employment Act gives the possibility to the employers through the U K to de-recognize legitimate trade unions and these trade union re representatives has to be the most damaging piece of government legislation of the last two decades.
It is directed at the core of the transpor the general un er the er tee the union movement, which is unity thr throughout the workplace.
It has allowed employers to drive a wedge between workers making the members of thi the, the workforce a second class citizens within their, their own workplace.
It has allowed unscrupulous employers to avoid E C directives such as collective redundancies, transfers of undertakings, a range of health and safety directives.
I second this motion.
Thank you.
Colleagues, I call  to put the C E C position 
, Southern Region Secretary, responding on behalf of the C E C. President, Congress, the C E C is asking you to support composite twenty two, support composite twenty three, and motions three four two and three four six.
We accept motion three four three with some qualifications as it begs the question actually how do we refine anti-trade union laws?
We have long sought parliamentary protection against the common law and have already accepted some state interference in our rulebooks.
We have, for example, welcomed laws that allows us to merge and accept transfers of engagements from other trade unions and also laws allowing political expenditure.
The G M B supports a fresh approach to industrial relations' law with a completely new legislative code which brings international standards fully into the U K. President, we are totally opposed to the repressive trade union laws brought in by Tory governments over the last fourteen years.
Tory governments that have said they are the champions of the individual, but have eroded the rights of individual workers over the last fourteen years.
That want economic benefits of Europe for the  of the business world but have denied British workers the protection of European social legislation.
That abolishes Wages Councils but denies the lowest paid British workers a minimum rate of pay which the other eleven member states provide.
As mentioned by the speaker of three four six about advertising in foreign newspapers, they have the audacity to advertise in foreign newspapers that cheap labour is available in Britain.
They actually take pride in promoting Britain as the sweatshop of Europe.
What kind of government is this?
It's been mentioned by several speakers today.
They're a sick cynical uncaring government that will go to any extremes to deny individual workers their rights.
This was clearly illustrated just over a week ago when, by the cynical abuse of the legislative process, they introduced an amendment to the Trade Union Reform and Employment Rights Bill at the eleventh hour in the Lords.
They did this to overturn the Court of Appeal ruling that found on behalf of a Daily Mail journalist and an employee of British .
The judgement found that the trade unionists had been penalized for being members of a trade union.
They were denied a pay rise when they refused to sign a personal contract because they wanted to be covered by the trade union collective agreement.
The government's justification for this amendment was, and I quote, it was not in line with what the government expected.
This is according to someone we've never heard of before and hopefully will never hear of again, a Viscount Ullswater.
They're actually now infringing on our civil rights.
They're infringing on our basic right to be a member of a trade union.
And it was mentioned by the member of motion twenty three, they're actually now starting to look at membership of a trade union being illegal.
The disgraceful action was described by Hugo Young of The Guardian as a shameful saga of a politically sick society.
Congress, what is just as worrying is apparently the Parliamentary Labour Party was extremely reluctant to take any stand at all to respond to this blatant breach of I L O laws.
Perhaps they should spend more time concentrating on protecting interests of workers than promoting constitutional debate within the Party.
President, where do we go from here?
I am pleased to report to Congress that, following a meeting with our lawyers, we're reasonably confident that there are in fact two avenues open to us to challenge the government in the Courts on the Social Chapter.
We will now be considering how best to progress this challenge.
We will continue to campaign vigorously with our colleagues in the trade union, and hopefully the labour movement, on all aspects of employment rights, not just through the media as asked for in three four two, but at the workplace.
Despite fourteen years of trying to smash us into submission, they'll fail to break the spirit of the working people of Britain.
Our members have had enough of repressive Tory employment laws that give too much power to unscrupulous employers and no protection for the workers.
The British public have had enough.
Trade unionists are fighting back.
The General Secretary mentions some of them in his Report, and I do not apologize for mentioning it again, they're fighting back at Timex, they're fighting back at Burnsall, in my own region at Crawley we've twenty members who've been on strike for the last sixteen and a half weeks.
They're fighting back in other workplaces throughout the U K. We must fully support these workers and campaign for them.
The G M B will use every aven avenue open to us to ensure that British workers do not become the sweated labour of Europe.
We demand the same rights, protection and civil liberties that other European workers enjoy.
C E C recommends support composite twenty two, twenty three, motions three four two, three four six, motion fo three four three with the qualifications mentioned.
Thank you colleagues.
Thanks very much indeed er .
I put the, put the Resolutions to the vote.
Composite motion twenty two, all those in favour?
Against?
That's carried.
Composite twenty three, all those in favour?
Against?
That's carried.
Motion three four two, all those in favour?
Against?
That's carried.
Motion three four three, all those in favour?
That's carried.
Er, anybody against?
That's carried.
Motion three four six, all those in favour?
Against?
That's carried.
Colleagues, you'll have noted the time of the day.
It's about fourteen minutes, thirteen minutes past four by my watch.
Now, we were due to finish at four o'clock but I'm not suggesting we can get through all the business if we carry on.
However, we've got the next composite twenty four on part-time workers which is very important, and rights of work.
All these motions are associated in a way with the previous debates that we've had.
I think, if we went on for another half an hour or forty five minutes, we could clear virtually everything.
We would only be then left with the er Regional Reports.
However important those are, I feel confident that we could get those in at the end of the week somewhere.
Would you agree with me that we carry on?
Thank you very much indeed.
Part-time workers, composite motion twenty four, part-time and temporary workers, Yorkshire Region to move.
G M B Scotland to second.
Priority in debate Northern Region.
If speakers could come down to the front please  Colleagues, settle now please.
President, Congress,, Yorkshire North Derbyshire Region,mov moving composite  moving composite on part-time and temporary labour.
You might find it's a little bit strange me stood up here talking to you about temporary labour, part-time workers, when you've heard what Asda's gone through and said temporary labour situations all morning.
But I'm still here to ask you to support this motion on the plight of casual and temporary workers.
Many of us here present today have worked for our employers for over two years so we have some protection under law.
Well, it's a bit of a joke really.
In many instance not even that's a consolation.
The casual workers are the perfect tar target for the employ employers who to swing the d Sword of Damocles.
They'll chop your heads off when they feel like it.
This is how the employers see the temporary and casual worker.
They'll do any job.
They'll not answer back.
They can move 'em about when they feel like it.
And they'll put up with any conditions.
They can pay 'em what they like and if they upset anybody they're down the road.
Well, we all know that cos that's exactly what happens to 'em.
If we carry on to let 'em do as they like, what'll happen is this section of the workforce will go in such a decline, they'll be very profitable which as we've already heard as Asda are trying it on now.
When costs are so profitable why would they need full-time employees, they can just have us stood at the door any d any g at the gate any week they want, begging for a day's work.
My granddad did.
I'm sure some of yours did.
In a lot of, a lot of situations these er employees can't go to bank, get a loan, they can't get a mortgage, building society won't listen to 'em, nobody really cares about 'em.
We need to ensure that these people get some form of equal right, equal right with a s simple contract.
More and more employees are using these casual workers and every one of our jobs is under threat cos if you lose your job tomorrow, you're a casual the day after.
As easy as that  people who have to work under these conditions, right, in the threat of w threat of labour, have real problems with the kids.
You know, the normal things in life.
A bit of security of employment so they can sort of sort out for an holiday.
Instead what happens is they do thirteen weeks as some place and they're down road.
It's no good at all.
If their protection under agreement and under law was exactly the same as a full time-worker then what'd happen is simple.
There'd be no need to have 'em as casuals or temporary workers.
I've heard in fac er in my factory, I've heard it in other places, right, when a temporary l temporary or casual worker goes down the road, or a part-timer work's cut short, ah it's only a casual and he only expected to be here for a few weeks.
Who'll tell his wife and kids that cos I don't want to.
And it does matter.
It matter to all of us.
We can't accept these conditions for our employees so sign 'em up for the G M B and fight for their rights.
Fight for a fair, the fairness, and a fair ineq quality of life.
Colleagues, I move this motion.
G M B Scotland to second?
G M B Scotland to second 
Chair, delegates,, Lanarkshire two branch, clothing and textile section, seconding temporary workers.
The forgotten people, or so it seems.
The people who continue to be discriminated against by employers with regard to pay, holidays, redundancies, working conditions, pensions, maternity rights etcetera.
Congress must fully support moves by the T U C and the Labour Party to ensure that temporary workers are treated no less favourably than full-time workers.
Action is essential.
Particuary particularly, sorry, in today's economic climate.
Increasing numbers of people are being employed on temporary basis.
Making life so much harder for th for the worker and so very much easier for the employers.
For example, if there is an unexpected budgetary overshoot, the labour force can effortlessly be reduced by simply not renewing employment contracts, which is why industries are succumbing to the same ruthless logic.
I urge you to support this motion for temporary workers, and let's have equal rights for all.
Thank you.
Northern Region 
, Northern Region, supporting composite twenty four.
President, Congress.
How would you like to have no employment rights?
This is the case with most temporary workers and some part-time workers.
No right to redundancy and no right to accrued holiday pay.
Most will be paid less than full-time workers and be on short-term contracts, I E monthly and in some cases weekly.
In my own particular section of the clothing and textiles the union fought long and hard to gain the same rights and conditions for temporary workers, and so leading to permanent employment in most cases.
In the present economic climate, I feel we are taking a backward step to the bad old days.
How many rights have we lost since the Tories came to power?
We now have many more temporary and part-time workers, with the so-called, in commas, decent employers, who will do anything to save money.
Isn't this a threat to the workers who feel their job is permanent?
How many employee employers, I E British Home Stores, have paid off their full-time staff and given them part-time only employment.
Timex in Scotland who sacked all their workforce, who now have no job at all.
How many more will try this on in the future?
We can no longer stand by and let this happen.
When will we say enough is enough?
Well, Congress, I say it's now.
Congress, the C E C are recommending your acceptance with a statement and I call  National Vice President 
Congress, President,, speaking on behalf of the C E C. Congress, the C E C is appalled at the increase in the use of part-time and temporary contracts by employers as a way of cost-cutting.
This increase, accelerated by the recession, has meant inequality and discrimination for hundreds and thousands of workers.
The growth in the labour market flexibility, as employers like to call it, has become another way of describing de-regulation of employment conditions and eroding trade union rights.
Under the Tories part-time and temporary working all too often, not all too often, always,ha means low pay, poorer working conditions and few of the benefits enjoyed by full-time workers.
Britain is fast becoming a sweatshop economy based on cheap labour and no investment and the Tories have proved it.
John Major himself, when they put adverts in every press in Europe, come to Britain, our employees have no rights and they are cheap labour.
So it's not rhetoric, it's truth.
Instead of moving forward into the twenty first century, the Tories are moving backward us backwards with working conditions that would be more suited to the nineteenth century.
Colleagues, since nineteen eighty one, we have stood on this platform and denounced C C T, compulsive competitive tendering, because it was the start of low paid temporary workers.
Lower the hours, no holidays, doing the same amount of work in shorter hours, if you want to win the contract.
Most of us, or most employees, were threatened.
Well, some time ago Jack Straw was supposed to have said that under the no new er Acts, or under a Labour government, that C C T would remain because of a transfer of undertakings we didn't er need to change.
This union made Jack Straw in no doubt, and the Labour Party, that on their election the compulsory element of C C T will be removed, and if they had any ideas they'd better forget 'em.
Congress, not so long ago we had Panorama and I T V, and I congratulate both of 'em, for highlighting to the world the problems of temporary and low paid part-time workers, where one agent went under cover and where Panorama highlighted that temporary working conditions, not of back-street sweatshops, not of the little corner shops down the road, or th or the little needlework factories, but of E M I, one of our biggest producers in this country, that they were employing labour for one year eleven months and twenty eight days and then sacking 'em.
What a disgrace for a company to behave, a company like E M I.
And there's not only E M I, there's a vast number of 'em.
Well, a few weeks ago, on your behalf, I attended the National Policy Forum of the Labour Party and we made it quite plain that the Labour government in its manifesto will have full employment rights for all from day one, so no one can abuse workers' rights.
And you'll be pleased to know that Frank Dobson has agreed to meet us on the fourteenth of June and we will make sure, to the best of our effort, that that policy will be endorsed.
Congress, the C E C is committed to negotiating full-time rights and benefits for part-time and temporary workers.
We will ensure our bargaining agenda makes the employer's so-called flexibility work for G M B part-time and temporary workers and it will be full empli employment right for all from day one.
Thank you.
Support the composite.
Thank you very much indeed .
I put composite motion twenty four to the vote.
All those in favour?
Against?
That's carried.
Rights at Works, colleagues, will include motion three two three, motion three three eight, three five O, three five two, three five three, three six five.
C E C are accepting, coupled with a statement and with a qualification and then I'll be asking  to respond for the C E C. Motion three two three May Day Holidays.
Lancashire Region to move and could the other speakers move, and seconders, additional speakers, come down to the rostrum please 
President, Congress.
I never thought in my wildest dreams that this motion'd be on an agenda.
But there again I'm not bloody surprised.
The leadership we've had from the trade union movement over the last fourteen years, we've been picked off on everything.
As the old Greek said, what you have you hold.
Now we're likely to bloody lose it.
I can't for the love of me understand the leadership of all the unions that allowed, we don't even get enough holidays of what they get on the continent, we should be asking for more, not taking them off us or putting it in October to celebrate Nelson and Trafalgar because I couldn't give a monkey for 'em.
If you want your holidays, you have them in the summer time and May Day is a workers' day.
It's nothing to do with politics, with the Labour Party, the Conservative or the Communist Party.
It's always been a workers' day and I hope it will remain so.
Is there a seconder?
Er, Lancashire Region.
President, Congress.
In seconding the motion for keeping the May Day holiday, it is my opinion that th th g this government is having yet another go at the unions.
It seems to me that we are having to fight all over again to keep many things that we have already fought for and gained in the past.
We must all fight together to keep thet
Motion three three eight, European Legislation, Lancashire Region to move 
, Lancashire Region, moving motion three three eight on European Legislation.
President, Congress.
Over the last few weeks certain parts of European legislation have come to the forefront of media attention.
Not least, the ruling of a maximum working week of forty eight hours.
This Tory government, in its infinite wisdom, has decided not to introduce this ruling until at the earliest two thousand and three.
What a farce.
This government should be forced to stand by its convictions, not just pick and choose rulings to follow which will fill its  whilst ignoring those which will benefit the ordinary working man.
Why should the government be allowed to get away with limiting the Transfer of Undertakings legislation to the private sector?
Are public sector employees' rights less important than those of private sector employees?
I think not.
I move.
That seconded?
Thank you very much.
Motion three five O, Employment, London Region to move 
President, Congress,, London Region, moving Resolution three five O. Congress, I'm sure everybody here has heard of, or had experience of, the changes taking place in the terms of our employment.
No longer do we take it for granted as meaning that we get a job in a company, or an industry, with the hope and intention of learning new skills, gaining experience and becoming part of an enterprise, in turn passing on skills and giving others the benefit of our experience.
In the past, this did not mean that we would not move from company to company, it most certainly did not mean that we ha that we thought we had a job for life, but it did mean that we expected a degree of permanence and improvement as part of the reward for our endeavours and labour.
But that has all changed now.
What we now see all too often is a variety of less secure substitutions for full-time direct employment.
These come in the guise of short-term and temporary contracts, agency staff and contracting out, rolling contracts and extended trial periods, right across the employment scene.
And make no mistake, although this has been introduced in a piecemeal and seemingly haphazard manner, it is in effect a well thought out policy, with the strategy coming from the Tory think-tanks and implemented with gusto by their close friends and allies in both public and private industry.
And the goals of this policy are many and varied.
Prime amongst them is to d to undermine nationally agreed wages and conditions, to undermine rights embodied in industrial law, to undermine trade union membership and organization.
And the victims of this policy are often low paid and often women, but it's by no means confined to these groups.
It is widespread and growing to the extent that the government is currently seeking to legislate for variable contracts between trade union members and non-members.
But the effects and intentions of short-termism go far beyond these limits.
Just think what we have struggled to build up over the years, for what we call job security.
We've struggled to establish financial security so as to provide for the needs of our families and communities.
Good health, good housing, good education and freedom from the fear of poverty and deprivation.
And we approach this in a positive manner, so that hand in hand with stability we had job satisfaction, fulfilment and pride.
But once a job becomes a series of chances with restrictions built in, all of what we struggled for becomes a thing of the past.
Uncertainty replaces contentment, insecurity replaces hope.
Some aspects of short-termism can be dressed up to look appealing.
Well, it's better than no job at all som I hear them say.
No, there can be no doubt that long-term effects will be bad for organized labour and a cruel price for many, a price not worth paying.
Colleagues, short-termism must be opposed and reversed.
I move.
Is there a seconder for three five O?
Thank you.
Motion three five two, Yorkshire Region to move 
President, Congress , Yorkshire North Derbyshire Region, moving three five two.
Contracts of Employment.
A contract of employment can also consist of items other than those listed in employment statements.
Works rules, custom and practice, and some terms in collective agreements can all be incorporated.
The law says that once the employment contracts have been accepted by the employee, then the employer should not make changes without agreement.
If employers try to give notice to change the contract without agreement then they are in fact giving notice to terminate the contract and offering a new one on different terms.
If the employee refuses the change, the employee will be in breach of contract.
If they try to impose it unilaterally, the employm employee would then be entitled to resign and claim constructive dismissal, or alternately, in some circumstances, take the action to a County Court.
This is, of course, is where the problem starts.
The employee must leave his or her employment on the chance that their case  succeed.
Bearing in mind that even if an employer's action amounts to constructive dismissal, this does not always mean that the dismissal will automatically be unfair.
The tribunal or court could well take the view that the business needs to reorganize or terminate practices or indeed to cut costs.
All of these can be viewed as valid reasons for changing a contract.
To succeed with a er constructive dismissal case the proposed changes must be viewed as fundamental.
Many changes are not viewed as fundamental in today's economic climate, so in theory we may seem to have the backing of the legal scheme, where in practice we have to cope with the interpretation which is weighed towards the employers and their economic arguments.
Th that is why this motion calls for the C E C to introduce a rolling campaign aimed at introducing legislation which will bind companies to the status quo until new agreements are reached through consultation.
A company breaking this agreement should give us the absolute right to seek compensation.
New legislation is needed because employers can hide behind the smoke screens of reorganization for economic reasons, which enables them to make changes to working people's terms  conditions of employment.
Surely if a change is impl imposed on employees, then regardless of the su supposed economic arg argument, regardless of the employer's dictatorial attitude, we should be able to say these proposed changes will not take effect until full negotiation and agreement have been reached.
Colleagues, I ask for you to support, to support this motion.
I also ask you to monitor an any unilateral decision made by your employers and document any changes.
Let your full-time organizer have the details.
We will then be in a position to support our campaign with the facts.
Colleagues, support this motion.
Thanks very much colleague.
Is there a seconder?
President, Congress,, Yorkshire North Derbyshire Region, seconding motion three five two, Contracts of Employment.
has outlined the complex legalities involved in trying to stop emp employers imposing changes to contracts of employment against the wishes of the employee.
On one hand we know that the employees cannot make changes to contacts without agreements.
On the other hand, we realize how difficult it is to use the law to bring these rogue employees to task.
Unfortunately many employees also know how difficult it is for us to stop them simply imposing changes without agreement from the people that are affected.
There are, of course, certain alternatives to using the law.
Workers can refuse to accept the change and withdraw their labour.
Many workers are already looking over their shoulders with four million people in reality unemployment in the United Kingdom.
They do not see strike action as a real choice, and why should they?
They have  they have t why should they even have to contemplate taking this type of industrial action?
They have kept their side of the agreement, kept their part of the contract.
Colleagues, fourteen years of Tory rule has taken its toll.
O K.
.
Alright well let
.
I take your point.
So in that case all we can say is that the link was between Nick 
.
and Russia is to do with his name, yeah.
and that's all.
Well the other thing to do with being fascist 
.
the other thing is to do with being fascist, yes, but you know you erm, you can talk about Russia, you know, running under the Czar and all the rest of it before communism came along.
That would have been a fascist kind of imperial erm state wouldn't it.
is it more that  just like a general representation of fascism and communism.
Yes.
like revolution.
Exactly, yes and the young threatening the old which Michael just helpfully pointed out amongst his more er 
genetic engineering as well 
Yes exactly.
created everybody the same.
Well you see exactly which is why, I mean we're getting into problems here because we're trying to say that one character equals one thing and it's not that, it's you know Nick he's a scientist, he's a biologist, he also represents in a way Russia, he also represents, you know, kind of erm the new of the young threatening the old.
but then in that case 
Then George represents the old value of systems
Then it's very hard for the audience or people reading the play to pick anything up from it because it's all mixed up and it's just an amalgam of  
.
One at a time one at a time please.
It's for each person, that's why like the playwright doesn't specify what each thing's supposed to mean because it can mean whatever it wants to each member of the audience.
Exactly.
Then it satisfies them personally.
And if you were a a lecturer in politics and you went to see this play then you might think oh look  oh and then you'd start thinking and if you were a scientist you would think about it in another way and if you were an artist you'd think about it in another way.
But if he was trying to be a political playwright then shouldn't he clarify what he .
Well what I am saying is that I don't think it is his primary concern.
Right, it is not the main line of the play.
The play is basically a psychological study of a marital break up, yeah, of a couple and the other couple are very largely just an audience to George and Martha's marriage yeah, that is the main line.
Though what I am trying to do is just explore all these possible lines of thoughts erm in a political way, alright, but they don't work out neatly and these critics got quite excited about so I thought I ought to point them out to you but you're quite right in pointing out that they don't work out neatly, O K. So we've got to, where have we got to with George?
Erm right.
He represents the past and he keeps talking about history because he is history and I said that he 's he represents old fashioned moral values.
Let's have a look at the text now, cos it will hopefully make these a lot clearer and you will see what I am on about.
Right erm, so page twenty nine  you can look at the top, you can see George says,you're the one, you're the one that's going to make all that trouble .
So how does he feel about Nick?
One person.
He feels threatened.
He feels threatened by him, fine.
Alright, you're the one that  all that trouble.
Because Nick is ju erm is young and because he associates him with all these dangerous ideas, in genetic engineering and so on, he feels threatened by him.
So to that extent George is on the side of history, isn't he?
He's he's saying, I don't like what's happening now.
Erm if you look at the next speech he makes, he says, do you believe that people learn nothing from history?
So in other words he's saying, you should look to history to try and understand what's happening.
He suggests that there is something to learn from history.
Alright, so he looks to the past for his moral inspirations and he imagines that Nick is looking to the future.
So we're on page thirty now?
Twenty nine, about a third of the way down.
Alright, so all these points are quite easy and straightforward, aren't they?
George looks back to the past and Nick looks forward to the future.
Erm then we get to a rather inter funny bit really.
In the middle of page twenty eight, George lists all his different erm qualifications that he says he has and , I am not quite sure what an  is an M A Master of Arts, P H D which is a doctor of erm philosophy and and he puts them all together to make up this word,ABMAPHD which doesn't exist obviously as a real word.
He's just made it up and he says it's been described, this word, as a wasting disease of the frontal lobes and  where are your frontal lobes?
In your brain.
Yes, so what's he saying?
Slight  he's got on his qualifications.
His brain's wasted away.
Exactly.
So it's a joke O K. It's sort of er at himself, a self critical joke.
Saying fine I've got all these erm  degrees    and there's a wonder drug, in other words  can do wonderful things.
in me all these things.
so what's he saying .
He's kind of teasing Nick and saying, I've got all these degrees.
Then he makes up this funny word and says it's the name of a disease by which his brain is rotting away.
So it's a kind of joke about professors who are totally incapable of any original thought.
O K and  really very mistrustful biology .
So again you see that he feels threatened and er doesn't trust Nick because of erm these ideas which he associates with Nick.
He assumes that Nick is, you people are rearranging my genes, so that everyone will be like everyone else.
Which is actually a very s serious idea and he is opposed to that, that new kind of genetic engineering, alright.
So to that extent he represents sort of old fashioned moral values, you know, this sort of thing shouldn't be allowed to happen, it's disgraceful.
so  saying they're very old fashioned erm sort of democratic ideas, aren't they?
And the idea of making everyone look like each other is a communist idea, yes?
Sort of everyone should be the same, everyone should have equal rights and equal erm opportunities.
So that what Nick, he imagines Nick is doing, whereas he opposes that.
So now can you see how politically, there is a kind of political subtext to this section  erm as I say you can only follow it so far down a road then you come to a dead end but I think it's there and you can't really ignore it, the political subtext.
All got that as a phrase the political subtext.
and it it crops up at various different stages through the play as well, it's not just erm, you know 
I just can't buy it, I'm sorry but if the author is going to put elements, a political element into it, he must be steering the audience towards something, because  why bother putting all these points up, because everybody realises, what the cold war is
.
I mean he's not really pointing anything out that nobody already has known .
I think the only difference is, how far beneath the surface the subtext is.
I mean you can interpret any play you want to Twelfth Night for example is having a political subtext if you look far enough beneath the surface of the play.
The question is, how near to the surface of the play is it and how that is what influences wh the audience as to how important they think it is.
If someone stands at the front of the play, at the front of the stage and says, you know, I believe in democracy, then you know you are let into a political play, yeah.
Here you become just faintly aware but you start thinking mm, you know, George is old fashioned, he doesn't like what's happening around him, he's rather conservative in that way.
Oh look his name's the same as the first person of America.
Oh and his wife's got the first name too and the name of the his wife too and then you begin to you begin to put a few equations together.
I don't think, you know, he's not trying to ram it down our throats but it is there Michael.
Yes and if erm it was all like a political bit all the way through it, they wouldn't be like re real characters
Exactly.
and you wouldn't get all this psychology bit in as well.
Exactly.
It's more psychological isn't it then.
More psychological, definitely yes.
Yes absolutely.
Alright.
.
O K so carry on then.
As Tim said you have to hold on to the fact that these are real characters and their in a kind of confrontational situation here aren't they?
And each feels er sort of under threat from the other.
Erm and it's very largely because of the ideas that are associated with them.
Erm, where did I get to, oh yes.
Well he's talking about the er genetic engineering, he says that it will be a shame.
Then he makes a joke out of it and says, you know, if everyone was forty something and looks fifty five.
So in other words he makes a joke about his  if they all looked like me, wouldn't that be awful.
So  he's kind of making a joke about it but there is a serious point there as well.
That he feels kind of disappointed and upset by what he sees happening in science around him.
Disappointing he says, disappointing, alright.
Then at the bottom of the page erm, he says I am in the history department and he says I shall probably tell you several more times and indeed he does in the play.
Martha tells him often that I am in the history department as opposed to being the history department, in the sense of running a history department.
I do not run the history department.
Erm, why is he telling all Nick this do you think?
All this to Nick.
I mean how does it come over?
What's it doing to their relationship?
Is he erm bring himself down a bit to Nick's level, cos Nick  and hasn't really got any position?
He's
Possibly.
Is he just opening up a bad  
.
Open 
Trying to be like on a more friendly basis with Nick .
Yes
how his marriage works.
That's right, yeah.
He's kind of revealing his inadequacies and failures, isn't he?
His sense of failure.
If you do that to someone, then you open yourself up, don't you?
I thought he was kinda saying to  that by the time she got round to saying it, it wouldn't mean as much.
Quite possibly that as well, Anne.
I agree.
Yes, it's to kind of forestall Martha, before she has a chance to get in there.
Well why would he want to tell him all his failures, especially that he's viewing Nick as an opponent  .
That's right , it's just changes tack now doesn't it really.
stop being confrontational, it's more to do with erm, you know, I think he actually wants sympathy from him.
To open yourself up to someone like that, I am a failure, then you're kind of establishing a different level of relationship aren't you.
Does he get any kind of sympathy, I mean how does Nick respond?
Well I don't know I'm the biology department, what's he trying to do there?
Make him feel better.
Make him feel better, comfort him, exactly.
Alright so we're back into the subtext now aren't we.
It's not what they say, it's what lies underneath the words it's interesting.
Alright, and then there's this extraordinary bit erm, that George has in the middle of page thirty, about what happened when he did run the history department for four years during the War.
What's interesting about that little spee speech there.
People who haven't said anything this lesson From I did run the history department, that main speech there.
What's interesting about that speech?
What does he appear to lament?
What's surprising about it?
Come on  , what's surprising about that?
About what?
About that speech there?
I did run the history department, it's quite joky isn't it?
It's quite shocking as well.
Are you looking at the right bit?
Erm, I don't think you are, you don't know where we are, page thirty, half way down.
.
Wrong page, right O K. Come on help her out, somebody else.
Isn't it that he only had the job because nobody else was there?
Mm mm.
So it's sort of quite sad really .
It is actually, it makes him feel rather sad erm and also rather funny, and therefore, he rather comes over a rather pathetic creature.
Get that in before erm    and er come on, what else, there's something shocking about that speech, what's shocking about it?
upset  got killed.
You know he's like upset that nobody got killed.
He's not upset?
He's ups he's not upset, he's not bothered.
Exactly.
He wishes like somebody did get killed.
He wishes that they'd all got killed.
Because that would mean that he would have been able to hold on to his job.
So he's a really .
He doesn't really, he's does he?
I thought it was just like Commentating that it hadn't 
.
Yeah but it's just a joke.
What I am saying is a joke, you know, it's not in very good taste is it?
I mean this was written in nineteen, was it sixty four perhaps?
Two.
Sixty two only, you know, not that long after the War had ended and to the lament that nobody got killed  you know you might have had more chances e of success if they had all got killed.
I think it's pretty shocking, it's actually in that kind of stage.
And then what about, what's interesting about the way that speech ends?
Extraordinary.
Go on one of you.
How does the speech end?
By changing the subject
Mm mm.
completely.
To?
.
Mm mm.
What about her?
her small hips.
About her small hips, why hips?
Why not legs or breasts or 
Because of the way Martha introduced her to him.
When she first said that there were guests coming round, she said, Martha she didn't have any hips.
Oh yes, that's true.
Yes and that's what 
.
George has remembered.
Exactly it's about childbearing isn't it, I mean  having hips is also to do with your shape sexually isn't it.
I mean it's going in and out at the right places but it's also to do with childbearing O K. So George is changing the subject there completely kind of off the wall isn't he, er this comment?
And so what does this reveal about him then.
Why did he suddenly do that?
It  it's confusing him.
He is talking about something and suddenly  changes the subject.
Yeah but why?
To stop exposing himself.
To stop 
exposing himself.
Possibly yes, he kind of like wants to erm move off but then he comes back to it in a minute though, so that doesn't quite hold.
What is I mean why is he  
.
business..
Why is he interested in th this business of well erm Nick and Honey.
Or whether Nick erm Honey has hips?
Is it sort of child bearing?
Why is 
.
if she had any kids.
She can have kids.
She can have kids, that's right and it's also, well it's back to his own his own fantasy child isn't it and th his own inability to have children with Martha.
So this kind of erm interest in children and in whether a couple are able to have children or not is has obviously been lying at the back of his mind hasn't he?
I mean this could be another area in which he feels threatened because he thinks if Nick and Honey have children then that again will reinforce a sense of failure, won't it?
He needs to find out.
alright?
And in fact it is as if we're having, it is if George is actually having two conversations at the same time.
Ostensibly he's talking about his career and history department and he goes back to it again.
Not one son of a bitch got killed.
Of course nobody  no that's not fair  and then all the time he keeps coming back to this issue.
You have any kids?
Alright.
And when Nick asks him, how does he respond?
Right at the bottom of the page thirty.
Come on, easy question.
That's for me to know and you to find out.
Yes.
A kind of a challenge.
Alright?
So he's also secretive.
So what's interesting here is that they seem to be having a conversation about un the university matters, the history department and so on but in fact there's this kind of subtext going on here in which both of them want to find out about the other person's  children and both of them are being very mysterious and avoiding the question.
No kids ha?
Not yet.
.
No, that's another strange thing.
Erm, I think that  was gay and
.
I'll have to look it up.
He was also adopted ?
Yes, exactly, which is what is interesting for the American dream, isn't it?
Mm.
A lot of things like that which happen to him, he then put into his drama.
He was adopted himself.
I think he was gay.
I don't think he ever got married.
And so this interest in marriage and this kind of fascination and you kn I think it would be very natural, I think, for a gay person to feel terribly envious of people who can create a family and er  and this kind of fascination with babies.
Anyway, then we get to another funny bit on page thirty one.
Erm, people do erm have kids and then kids links them with the what they were talking about before, the genetic engineering because now what they start talking about, two things kind of come together, the two themes and then they start talking about?
Test tube babies.
Test tube babies, exactly, yes.
Then there's a wonderful line.
Then the rest of us, them as wants to, can screw to their heart's content .
A what does he mean when he says that and B what's the effect of all that on the audience?
That bit about screw to their heart's content?
Wonder wonderful bit of language.
.
Screwing's not just about having babies.
Sorry.
That screwing's not just about having babies.
Er yes.
.
O K yes.
That it's fun yes.
To their heart's content.
In other words sex can be great fun, you don't need to have to do it in order to just have babies.
If you make babies in test tubes then er, you know, the rest of us don't need to worry about it.
In fact it would be just one less thing to worry about if we could all er screw to our heart's content.
O K yes, well it says what it means.
What effect is it going to have on the audience.
Shocking and 
Shocking and 
.
You were all laughing, yes, that's amusing as well.
It's also the big A word absurd.
Because it's so unlikely and it's so shocking and it's such a funny thing to say.
well then, yes the next bit actually is more absurd than that, sorry.
What will happen to the tax deduction?
Now I assume that in America as in England, if you have children you then get some financial help.
In this country you get a, you know, child benefit that you and in America you would obviously get a tax deduction if you have children.
So he's saying, it's a kind of complete kind of lateral thinking.
You know if everyone  around and they didn't actually have their own children.
They just had their children developed in labs in test tubes.
Ha how would you be able to claim for your tax deduction?
So it's a wild bit of sort of er lateral thinking there.
Very amusing.
I am sure that an America would  love that but it may not  you know, to an English audience because er we might not be sure what they are talking about.
So again they talk around subjects.
Nick refuses to say whether he's got any children or not  and George keeps saying, you know.
Are you going to have children?
Are you going to have children?
And Nick keeps saying.
Well yes, we want to wait, we want to wait.
Can you now look in the middle of page thirty one.
This is erm and this  taking in not only the room they had  the whole countryside.
This is your heart's content Illyria, Penguin Island, Gomorrah.
Do you think you're going to be happy here in New Carthage Jane?
Let's have a look at all those  places he refer to and then work out why he's referring hem.
So Illyria we should all know what Illyria is.
Describe the land of Illyria to me?
Adjectives?
Well
what it's basically like?
Erm.
Wasn't it erm a country with a cost
Yes, alright, yes.
That's a very literal one.
What's the atmosphere like in Illyria?
Which play, we're talking about by the way?
Twelfth Night
Right what's the mood then, what's the atmosphere?
Festive.
Festive  come on, keep going, lots of things.
What's the mood of it  twelfth night?
love.
light.
Love, light, full of light.
Dream like.
Dream like definitely 
Confused .
Confused, definitely.
Mad.
Mad definitely, yes.
All those things, yeah.
Do you see the links now?
In what way dream like?
Dreams and people deceive each other.
In this play they have  imagining children fantasies, yes.
So that link there between dreams and fantasies and and being deceived and going mad, I think is quite clear isn't it?world and between Shakespeare's world.
Penguin Island, I was reliably informed the other day, is the island where erm Batman's
joking.
Penguin comes from
You're joking.
No I'm sure you're probably right and it .
Who is the Penguin Anne?
.
Come on.
Is he good or bad?
He's a baddy.
Right, he's a baddy, thank you.
So that's an evil place, yeah.
A strange and evil kind of fantasy world, yeah.
Gomorrah?
.
Yes, what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah?
They got destroyed punished .
Yes , because
The they 
.
Yes, good.
So what did God say?
To banish them from their doom.
Mm.
Take them away from it.
No he just destroyed everything, he just  
but why, I mean because yes because they were sinning and evil.
He actually said to them, if you can find, you know, a hundred good men then I won't burn your city and then he put it down and down and down and had a good old bargain.
If you can find ten men.
If you can't find ten men.
If you can find one good man, then I won't burn down your city and they can't get anybody, so whoosh the whole lot goes up, O K. So Gomorrah
.
.
Gomorrah is one of the cities in the Bible, Sodom is the other one, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by God because people there were so evil.
It's the city of .
It's the name of the city, is it?
No .
.
.
Right .
Because  
And the last one.
Do you think you're going to be happy here in New Carthage aye.
It's classical
Yes from classical mythology, Greek classical mythology.
What happened to it?
Died .
The Romans obliterated it
They obliterated it, yes.
They burnt it down didn't they and from the this is from Virgil's Aeneid
Because  invaded .
That was revenge was it?
It's not in the Aeneid is it?
Yeah  
I am reliably informed.
No, it's referred to  and Aeneid but it's not actually what happened to the city.
Well that, I think the original one is from .
.
It  just another reference .
It's another reference, yes, at a revenge again.
So somewhere that was violently and destroyed out of revenge.
So what do all these things?
I mean what is George on about here?
They're all classical.
I mean they're all history.
Yes, historical references, sure and literary references as well because he represents the arts amongst other things, whereas Nick represents the sciences.
Is he just saying that the place he's living in is a dump?
Exactly, then there and what's this question to Nick then?
Oh why do you want to stay here, why don't you leave.
Exactly and more to the point.
Why do you want to 
.
What's the subtext of this whole section here?
What do they keep on going back to?
Having children 
kids 
Having children.
Why do you want to have children in somewhere that is mad, evil  and about to be destroyed?
There's a sort of sense that all those places are kind of unreal places, aren't they?
Before they get destroyed.
So Nick is a little defensive.
I hope we'll stay here.
That is he's answering in a sense George's question.
Why do you want to stay here?
O K erm, right we'll just finish it to up to where Martha comes in.
Erm at the bottom of the page then, George starts talking about Martha, Martha's father and it gets very funny this bit, very naughty.
Erm look, flip your eyes down the bottom of the speech on page thirty one what is erm amusing which bits are amusing and describe the humour in that speech there by George?
Page thirty one or two?
One at the bottom.
Come on and we'll finish in time.
.
How do you describe the humour there.
Running around absolutely in hysterics ?
Sarcasm
No 
Weird humour sort of 
Weird humour, right.
Cynical.
Cynical.
Absurd.
Absurd, yes so which bit would you say is absurd?
The bit about everyone  in the  in a dinner queue .
.
In a dinner queue yes, someone collapsing and dying in the dinner queue is rather absurd and it's also very
.
It's not happy is it?
What kind of humour is it?
Black humour.
Black yes, exactly.
The the best bit I think is when he says that the erm we make excellent  fertiliser , right at the bottom there.
.
O K, over the page.
He then starts talking about Martha's father, who was not going to die apparently.
Martha's father has the same  of those Micronesian tortoises, sort of run for ages and ages and in fact he says he's over two hundred years old.
Erm, ah we haven't quite got to it.
Right, so how does .
How does George feel about Martha's father and how does this illustrate it?
To say that Martha's father going to live for ever.
Dominating.
Yes dominating him, exactly, towering over him.
Going on for ever and ever.
Can't get rid of him, yeah and that fits in with what we were saying the other day about the Freudian kind of relation between the three of them.
Nick mean er sorry George needs to in a sense replace Martha's father.
Erm the only way he is going to be able to do that is when his dead.
.
Spoke in terms of his career and in terms of his marriage.
.
And the very last point.
I think I mentioned it before, if you didn't get it down then, just put a jot down now.
There's this interest in on  's part, in how the two sexes communicate.
A across the sexes and B amongst themselves and here George goes on.
One of the things I do not know about them, that's women, is what they talk about and why the men are talking.
I must find out some time.
Alright, so there's this interest in what women talk about when they're by themselves and when Martha comes down, she wants to know what the men have been talking about as well.
So it is a very clear interest and that should remind you of who.
Somebody else you've studied, I know, you did it with me.
Interest in gender, interest in what  talk about  me, yes 
.
and then Martha's voice, what do you want, with a not very good American accent and that's it.
Right, thank you very much.

At to page nineteen my Lord of the transcript  passage that begins  my reading of this judgment  down to the bottom of that paragraph at letter G, so from B to G on page nineteen my Lord 
Yes
Now my Lord, er Lord Justice  er agreed with er Lord Justice  that's at twenty A, Lord Justice  also agreed but er added er some further er thoughts on the er on the issue er his conclusion er is summarized of page twenty two, paragraph G of the er transcript 
yes, yes
now my Lord, your Lordship would of seen from the  case and now from the continental television case, both in the divisional court and in the court of appeal, that where a reference is to be made the court that is marking the reference, if, what is sort to be done is either to challenge a British statute or in the case of er, er the red hot Dutch case,of course with the statute, er something which er it involves a ministerial decision, but in either of those instances the court has got to decide in the interim whether or not the statute or measure should remain in force and there is the priority of public policy as indicated in er Lord er  speech referred to both in the divisional court and in the court of appeal in continental television in er maintaining the law in force and a, a bonus has to be faced by the person seeking discipline from the law to show us a sufficiently strong case to justify the er, er, the suspension of the law in the interim.
My Lord  in making my main submissions to your Lordship, erm, I submitted and this is  position that there is no distinction between public and private acts,in the British Rail Board both the act and the central fund byelaw should be taken as valid in the interim  if your Lordship is minded to make a reference, unless strong evidence of invalidity is , so your Lordship if you make a reference it needs to form a view as to the strength of the 
yes 
of the erm of the defendant's case 
well how would that how would that fit into the present context?, erm, we're assuming here that I haven't decided the er  European points or some of them in your favour
yes my Lord
or, or alternatively because I haven't, I have made this clear throughout, I come to the conclusion that the, the questions as posed erm or posed in any court which any one has yet suggested really can't, can't be answered or, or there are reasons for not answering at this stage whatever it may be
yes my Lord 
in other words anything except a wholly favourable answer to your clients
yes my Lord
in effect, yes, well then erm just looking ahead in those circumstances erm, er  on, on the face of those issues er where do we go from there then?
well my Lord er you know the Society is in your Lordships hands in terms of seeking to move matters forward, the Society is erm very anxious indeed and the reason your Lordship knows that the hiatus in recovery from central funds should be overcome, our primary case er is that er we can demonstrate to your Lordship that the European law defences on the preliminary issues should be answered in the Society's favour
well yeah, yes,
but should you have, should you have doubts about that my Lord then er what we urged your Lordship to do would be in your judgment er to include a consideration of the strength of the case er your Lordship is seized of the matter now, if your Lordship er considers that there are issues of law which require clarification from the European court of justice and in competition cases all the European court candid on references is to give guidance on questions of law, your Lordship identifies questions of law which need to be i which need to be resolved and you think that it is the most appropriate course to refer a question, then we would ask that your Lordship consider in the interim the position of the, the Lloyds Act clauses there are sort to be challenged by the defences because it will be
yeah, yeah, well I, I see all that, then, what, what is it literally that you'd ask me to do, would you take out an application for judgement on order fourteen, would you be expecting me to give judgment or, or, what other courses do you expect, be expecting hoping would take?
well my Lord one, one approach would be for er your Lordship to consider the matter in respect of er order fourteen A, er in terms of er the validity in the interim of the er Lloyds Act and the central fund byelaw  and that is a matter that your Lordship could, could deal with on the basis of a, an oral application.
Yes, erm
In short of having before your Lordship a very complicated er array of procedural options, er the, the view that has been taken by, my lead was the most appropriate er course was to come and argue the issue substantially and then in the light of what your Lordship rules thereafter to see the best way forward in terms of further procedural applications to your Lordship.
Er is what you're saying, what, what you're saying apply equally erm spitting rather, if I sort information from it, I'm not quite sure what sort information I could seek from a commission, got any suggestions in that 
well my Lord you could seek, you can certainly seek information from the commission er concerning the state of the proceedings erm that the commission is looking at in respect of the 
mm 
er complaints that have been submitted, you can ask them er, erm for factual or legal information in accordance with er paragraphs er thir thirty seven to thirty nine of the guidelines which are in  and  er page eleven thirty eight to eleven thirty nine.
mm  could we have the, do either of you have the experience of how long, how long this might take
my Lord, it's a relatively new procedure
mm
and erm, but the Commission, I'm, I'm sure if your Lordship asked for expedition, would seek to deal with the matter expeditiously
yeah
My Lord in saying doing it in another case which is an arbitration
mm
and the Commission, expedite this matter for the best part of twelve months already
yeah, mm
it's the delay that we are concerned about my Lord
well I can understand that, yes  well I, I, I, just say wasn't going to rule on this and I'm not in, not er convinced at the moment it would be appropriate to rule on it er as part of the er, in any judgment I gave, but it seemed to me quite important on reflection to, to hear the way what you were putting it
my Lord there are two other grounds
mm
that I would also put it on in relation to your, to, to, to, to, to your Lordship and to considering the matter in interim, your Lordship has er, erm, er heard er the information that had been put forward er by the society, you have seen the er information about the position the commission has taken, your Lordship knows that the commission was informed about both the act and all the relevant byelaws in the present case, the precursored, the central fund byelaw was informally proved by the commission  Mrs   has sworn on affidavit that the society has never been given any indication that the matters in issue in the European Law Defence are contrary to competition rules  and your Lordship also has the answer by the commission to the European parliament  which is exhibited to Mrs  affidavit and which I took your Lordship to earlier and of which judicial note can be taken by virtual section three, two of the European communities act, so my Lord we say that there is already a body of information which provides a basis if one has to consider what should be done in the interim of saying that in the interim the application of the act and the application for byelaws should be maintained, the third element my Lord is the intimate link between the recoveries of money for the central fund, er under the byelaw and the implementation of the United Kingdom's operations under directive seventy three, two, three, nine, we've been over this before my Lord erm, my Lord is, is aware of the intimate link er between the er recovery of monies to central fund, the maintenance solvency and the paying of policy holders.
If I may my Lord there is an issue that was raised in my learned friends reply er which er was a new point er and where I do take issue with him and this concerns the issue of the relevance of the directive here     the, the issue relating to er whether or not the er Lloyd's Act and the society have got any relevance in respect of the directive, his submission as I understood it, was that under article one, eight, nine the directive only addressed itself to states, to the British Government and that therefore the reliance on the directive by the society and in relation to the Lloyds Act was er a misconceived er reliance.
My Lord I'd like to pass up to your Lordship a passage from er a leading text book written by Doctor Derek  Q C and Alan  dealing with European community law 
mm, mm 
and my Lord the  my Lord you'll see at the bottom of page sixty nine, this is the latest edition just published this summer my Lord, erm at the bottom of page sixty nine you have an extract from the European community treaty which er defines a directive and you will see my Lord says in terms that it leaves to the national authorities the choice of forms the methods, and then if my Lord could read the passage er under that on page seventy 
yes
my Lord the I rely on, on this passage and your Lordship has also got the full section dealing with er the nature of the directive er from er the er from the  and  book, I rely on this as er as indicating both the text of the, of the treaty itself and this passage from the learned authors as indicating that it is within the power of the United Kingdom 
yes
to choose the form and methods by which directive seventy three, two, three, nine should be given effect 
yes
and my Lord in relation  the provisions of the Lloyd's Act and the er byelaws that are linked into solvency and the maintenance of er, er adequate fund and the payment of policy holders, in my submission constitute the implementation of that directive and those obligations er in, er relation to the society and that is perfectly compatible with community law er it is er the states er have variety of ways in which they can give effect er to community obligations.
but you're saying in, in, in short, are you, that erm, that in the present instance erm the obligation was put on the United Kingdom government which has sort, it may have succeeded or not as the case maybe, discharge the obligation by in effect erm subject to the subsidiary provisions which you've both make reference and leaving it to  to er regulate these matters
that's right my Lord
yes
one has er, and Parliament of course did that within 
yes I follow, I follow that one
mm
does you, you might I suppose have another point on article five might you not?
yes my Lord
erm in namely that to the er, the duties put upon me
my Lord there's a case which I want to bring your Lordships attention to in relate in relation to article five and this is the    my Lord there is a further case that I want to bring to your Lordships attention 
well, well tell me what er, it's
it's  it's the  case
from what, what proposition are you going to cite it?
erm, this is a, a case which er deals with er the issue of the suspension of a measure based upon community law, whether a national court, when a measure has been based upon community law has power to suspend it, now my Lord the er issue in  was erm involved er the er decision of er the German government er to give effect to er a community regulation in the sugar sector which er required er that levies should be er obtained from sugar companies, so it was a very direct er implementation of community law erm in that sense different to the matter before your Lordship, but we rely on it by analogy and in, in this case my Lord er you will see it's in the supplementary bundle of authorities, the extra bundle because, before your Lordship, in that case your Lordship will see er between paragraphs fifteen and thirty three er the er European court indicating that where a measure that has been based upon a community er, er law is challenged before a national court that the national court er should er only er engage in the er, er suspension of such a measure, erm if there is serious doubt er this is erm my Lord er at er paragraph twenty three of the  case er and we say that er if you look at the criterions  they are not dissimilar from those that have been adopted by the House of Lords as a matter of English law in the  case 
mm 
we say that it is 
it sounds very much the same, the same line, I mean it'd be very odd if any court came to a conclusion that one put on a fanciful grounds erm suspend or ignore any, any er particular part of European law
well that's right my Lord
erm
it's a serious matter
yes but er 
and er and we say here that er in respect of directive seventy three, two, three, nine, contrary to what my learned friend has said, we say the passages in the V D S case
yeah
that I've already drawn your Lordships attention to say that erm the policy holders protection can be given effect to and er that er that er it does not have er the broad construction all encompassing construction that eighty five three is the only route that my learned friend has submitted
yeah
we also rely on the fact that the case that I've drawn to your Lordships attention yesterday, is  this was the case in the supplementary bundle where your Lordship will recall that er on the issue of export credit guarantee 
yes,answer your point Mr  it does, er, er this particular point, if you take the directive as I understand 
yes 
your suspicions, tell me if I've got it wrong, erm, it is that er  erm   are concerned through the chain of command that you've identified, let's say the United Kingdom in effect will be leaving it to  to er, erm to deal with virtually all er aspects of solvency and protection of policy holders erm the subject to let us specifically prescribed by the er nineteen eighty two Insurance Act
yes my Lord
erm that's one path one could look, er down, the, the other part one could look down to one not is article five erm 
yes my Lord
which is er, an obligation imposed on national course among others, erm  we need to read it to ourselves
mm
and your  point in this context, it, as I say the context in which I've asked you to address me, I suppose you would say, erm  given the matters are arguable or whatever the test is under those issues, er, nevertheless if you allow  the case that's been put up, erm, either by way of defence or by way of set up or by way of counter claim to impede the collection of funds, erm, then er you are not  then you are erm, erm taking a measure which could could, jeopardize the  of the objectives of this treaty, er whereas I image you will say, or you might say, I don't know, erm, provided this doesn't impede the collection of central  funds erm, in the meantime, if er the defendants wish to pursue their counterclaim to trial then er, there's nothing to prevent them from doing so
my Lord our immediate concern is precisely the one you've identified, the collection of monies from central 
yeah 
fund, er and we say that er, er we hope your Lordship will be with us on the main issues, but if your not, we say there are very powerful reasons of English and community law including er the obligation on the court under article five, to ensure that the, er the, the trials some two years hence lasting some five weeks with all the expert evidence, my learned friend says will be necessary, should not in the interim have the effect of er frustrating er the operation of er apparently valid provisions in the United Kingdom statutes and the Lloyds Acts and byelaws, which er, are themselves measures that have been adopted so as to pursue the policy
well, yeah, yeah, sorry to have to stop you again, but I think, with great respect one could, I think this point shorter, I'm only putting it back to make sure
yes
I understand it, is that erm, even given that this case is arguable, erm  alright let it be argued out, but if, if er, before it is argued out you're not entitled to collect money from a simple fund, you are frustrating the objectives of the directive
yes my Lord
and that is erm, erm  the way I suggest it to you, that would be directly contrary to article five
yes my Lord 
nothing to stop the defendants if they er wish to do so pursuing, preparing their counterclaim, erm, but the one thing it cannot do, even if the English law for example set- off would otherwise permit it, er is to, would, would be to prevent the, the collection of funds, because if the English law was set off and did do that, that would be running contrary to the directive
mm
and erm something which this court er presumably now doesn't have any jurisdiction to do otherwise it would be breach of article five
er, yes my Lord, there's the prior point that we er, we would submit as indicated in the skeleton of the eleventh of November that on its true construction, erm the central fund byelaw, article ten in particular er gives rise to a payment of a specified sum, ascertain sum, payable forthwith on demand, it's rather like the example your Lordship gave of the Barclaycard or the cheque, if my learned friend is right
well maybe that would be to English
that's right,
that would be to English law questions which we're certain of interest today 
no, no my Lord
er on whether or not, erm  thi this erm European community defence could amount to a set-off er in the face of erm rule ten, the central of fund byelaw
yes my Lord
very interesting question to address
yes
as a matter of pure English law, at the moment I have no idea what the answer is
yes my Lord
erm  what I was putting to you was, do you, do you say that even if it would as a matter of pure English law, it is overridden by community law erm, er, er at least er, at least for the time being 
yes my Lord
because er, if it wasn't, then there would be a frustration of directive seventy three, two, three, nine
yes my Lord
yeah, follow that, er in so far as it's, it's a counterclaim of course, erm, but then er  er unlike a, a set off, with the set off was established as a matter of English law, that, as far as the counterclaim is concerned, the course as I understand the rules is a very large measure of discretion, as to whether or not it er, it stays the claim on, or, erm, erm simply say no they'd be a judgment  claim, immediate enforcement, and of, the counterclaim go off to trial
yes my Lord
yes
my Lord I
Tie the, I was just trying to tie the submission  back to the, to the situation in which we are presently in
yes my Lord
yes
my Lord I think it's also helpful to add that in the  case erm, er your Lordship will find at er, maybe helpful if you could very briefly look at that judgment my Lord 
that's erm 
this is in the supplementary er, the, the small file 
that's your that is your blue bundle?
it is my blue bundle my Lord
yes
er and 
tab 
my Lord I'm afraid I don't, I don't have a tab on my note
what's it for?
yes
tab seven, four my Lord 
yes
and my Lord er in relation to this judgment er you've got the courts setting out the principal at page er one stroke five, forty, paragraph fourteen of the judgment  that's the principal of suspension  and it's then got it's conditions for suspension on the next page, paragraph twenty two
I haven't actually got the, got page, it's rather a long case
it is a long case my Lord 
where?, where?
five forty
five forty
paragraph
erm paragraph fourteen  this is the principal of suspension 
yes
then overleaf my Lord you've got the conditions of suspension being indicated by the Court Justice 
yes
and my Lord you'll of noticed that in paragraph erm er thirty er they talk about the importance of taking the community interest into account and have proper guarantees and in this instance overleaf on page five, forty four, er they talk about the financial risk to the community, this of course was in the agricultural 
yes 
sector, a different sector, we're only relying on it by analogy they talk about the position of requiring the applicant by guarantee such as the deposit of money or other security, and my Lord our submission is, is very simple, er that, er the, the measure that  are seeking to recover under are linked into solvency and the payment of policy holders, there's a community interest there in the directive, but if, er for any reason your Lordship feels there's a, a matter that needs to go on and further to, to, to a lengthy trial, that in the interim what would be compatible with the community object would be to ensure that the monies are recovered into settlement fund er so that the solvency and payment policy holders can continue
yes
but as we stress this is a subsidiary argument that we point
yes, those are, those are the three grounds then on which you
yes my Lord
let's put it accurately, erm, it would be as presently advised submitting to me in effect events which 
yes my Lord
possible then
yes my Lord
yes, well is there any more you want to say on that, is er, er, er, subject to Mr  as you say of course, erm I just simply wanted to know erm so that I can have a, a, a look, erm at what on one view, erm might be the, the case, it might clear be the conclusion that you er incorrect in or partially incorrect or I was unable to answer all the questions er at this stage
yes
yes I think then 
my Lord I I do have some other observations on matters with Mr  but it maybe more economical and effective on the new issues to wait until after Mr  has addressed you and to deal with them at one point
I would of thought so Mr  yes, yes, erm, alright well Mr  Mr  erm  this is a rather odd exercise in a way and as you know my first thoughts were they were better to leave it to see what, how the, how the judgment came out of it, but erm, erm, I do regard the matter as er, as a, as a whole as of very considerable importance both to both sides of this case and erm, it did seem to me on considering it, er, from recovering from the dentist that er, an, an outline of erm
oh yes
what parties might erm be minded to
yes
contend and submit
yes
er in certain events might be helpful
my Lord yes
yes
oh my Lord I think there are 
I think I'm not I think bound ny anything you have said this afternoon, it's just, if you're able to indication or you, if you want to keep your powder dry you're perfectly entitled to do so
my Lord I'm happy to give an indication and
yes
with the caveat that, in the light of your Lordship's judgement we, we may wish to  and change, erm first of all with regards to the commission, your Lord, your Lordships taken to
Delimitis erm Delimitis was the case of one which the commissions noticed was grounded erm, your Lordship of course has the right to seek information to the commission to seek erm information as to the status of the proceedings, whether the commission have any market reports which maybe useful and so on 
mm
your Lordship can't ask for information which maybe confidential to some other party for example what happened to the sugar case 
no, no I can't I can't answer, the answer to the questions either can I 
my Lord I don't think you can
sadly no
I, but, but er, but,b b but fortunately that's your Lordships task 
er in a way 
erm does it 
so in, in a way, I mean I'm really almost be in this case be limited to simply saying can you give any idea when you're likely to, be able to produce anything other
and, and they may very well my Lord, say well we have been watching with great interest what your Lordship has been doing
if I 
and when 
if I was them that's what precisely I'd do too, yeah
my Lordship may wish to go back to the dentist
mm
erm and they may say
yes
and they have that right to say well it's in the national court we're going to leave it there, erm, well so, so I think we would be reluctant to see it go to the commission erm Delimitis does say in the paragraph after what, after  fifty three it says well your alternatives is to send it off to Luxembourg
mm 
and that maybe something your Lordship may wish to consider, I'm a little bit baffled as to why my learned friend has gone for cases on interim measures, we're not seeking interim relief, we haven't sorted interim injunction, erm to suspend the validity of any particular measure that was the basis of all of his case 
well that maybe true, but I think it's working off an analogy on that, turning it the other way round and saying well erm if, if I got to the stage of erm, well possibly even seeking some information from the commission, well certainly if I gave you a conclusion for example, that it should be referred, erm and I think again even if I came to the conclusion that I should neither want, er there's no point in seeking information from the Commission, nor should I refer it, or at least refer to the stage erm what his clients would be saying should be done in the interim and what he says in effect, for the reason he's outlined is, er that we should proceed on the basis of erm the validity of the act erm and of the byelaws
mm, but my Lord that can I take that
and, and then following through the suggestion I've put to him, erm, erm on one scenario at least to, it could even you, erm perfectly erm able to pursue your counterclaim
mm, mm
but not to use it by way of fending off calls for central fund money
mm
that again is the same expression as, that is  Mr  bottom line
mm
er he wants money coming in to the central fund er if has in two years time to face a, a trial, these allegations so be it, but meanwhile he wants the money to come in to the central fund for the reason he's outlined
well let me take, take that stage by stage
mm
first of all if there's a reference, no question of validity arises, what would happen is proceedings are stayed, subject to turns that your Lordship may direct or order and then 
is that, is that 
that's what happens
well is it is what happens is it what's bound to happen?
no my Lord no, my Lord that is what prima facie happens, I mean my Lordship 
well is it the  case or I mean, or, or, obviously I stayed it, erm
well there was nothing left which wouldn't 
there was no point in doing anything else, no 
no my Lord that's right, but, but, that doesn't mean to say that if your Lordship didn't stayed there would be any, if your Lordship did or didn't stayed or any part of it doesn't compute a validity of section fourteen until one's got a judgment saying, it's bad for example, I mean that's what we're arguing about until such and the
well that's, that's right, you're quite right Mr  that's why I then, I then put Mr  points in the context of where we've got to 
mm 
because er, if he, if he didn't get a clean win on these
my Lord 
points if he didn't I think 
that's only the time a problem arises
yes
erm  that the question then arises are you, are you er able put the matter up as a, as a defence as a set off or as a counterclaim with a stay of execution on the claim
my Lord erm  first of all if your Lordship stayed the counterclaim your Lordship would be staying the claim under article eighty five and your Lordship would be denying the direct effect of article eighty five and of course 
no, no, no, no no, no stay, no stay of the counterclaim
well my Lord, yes the stay of the counterclaim as a set off, that would then be denying article eighty five as a shield  well of course it wouldn't undermine the defences based upon article eighty five per se, the other ways, I mean the set off is simply one way in which the defence arises, it arises in three other ways as your Lordship seems to have an opinion, security or set off is simply one of the ways  the defence, but it's not the only defence, so to simply state that part of the defence would not get the, would not mean that the article eighty five defence erm, er, evaporated in any way shape or form, the whole defence would have to be stayed so that there was none, no defence left, a defence on article eighty five
there are incidentally I think bits of, even  there is a duty of care isn't there which, there's  duties floating around in your defence somewhere
er yes and co yes my Lord there is of course a great deal more in respective 
although I suspect there's, there's what you're gonna stand on 
they, er, they may well my Lord 
mm which have to be, er, er I'd heard it's round about January sometime is that right?
February the twenty eighth 
is it?
February the twenty eighth, end of February, yeah, my Lord so of course erm staying the counterclaim as a set off wouldn't really progress much further because after eighty five, I mean that's simply a subsidiary way in which the defence arises, article eighty five arises primarily because we say underlying the arrangements are void and you're enforcing something, which is void and you can't do it, that's not a set off claim, but your Lordship I mean, my Lord that's why that doesn't really get them any further, my Lord they've always had outstanding, which they've never pursued er for order fourteen so they can always ti try as they said they will for the other erm, erm preemptive attacks upon us
mm
erm strike out, interim payment, order fourteen er itself, there's always still available to them, erm that the other side of the coin is if they get their money and of course they're going to be threatening bankruptcy for some four thousand odd Names, I mean that's, that's equally devastating to individuals, erm my Lord, one would be into a  type of argument on balance of convenience if we were at this stage, one would be considering the bankruptcy of the names, whether they have the funds to pay, even if judgment is given against them because vast majority don't and what would be the point of giving judgment,this order fourteen cases saying one shouldn't do it in those circumstances, what if the names are right, will they get the money back, will they get a cross undertaking  damages and pre er, er and to what extent do  now have the funds, to what extent will it actually effect their business in the light of of 
mm 
the state of the premium trust funds, these are the sorts of consideration one would need to take into account, er a no doubt they would, they'd need to be argued fully at a, at a later stage, but the only question here is, if your Lordship refers and there's going to be some delay, well, erm, I was trying to think of an analogous case er and the case which went to the European court at the beginning of last year had consequences which were potentially far more profound than this case is, it was the  Case concerned the application of equal pay principles to pensions
mm
and er if it was applied retroactively the er estimates which were put for the European court
yes
was that it would er have implications in the United Kingdom amounted to some sixty billion and the attorney general came to Luxembourg to tell the court about the dire consequences, er your Lordship raised consequences in the context of an arguments under article five
yes
erm, my Lord, in relation to that erm and er  is an example, the European court itself and only the European court has the power to limit the direct effect of the provision, they can say well it has direct effect in these circumstances prospectively, but not retroactively and only the European court, that court alone has that power, all other courts, national courts must, my Lord this is your duty under article five I would submit to enforce article eighty five and three F
yeah, er, well I follow that but the argument would go, er the article
my Lord
that nobody was, nobody was in the business of not enforcing those, erm, but the only way I could erm  fulfil, the obligations arising out of the treaty and abstain from measures that jeopardize the attainments of the objectives of the treaty, er was to allow the monies to be collected by  er leaving you free to pursue your counterclaim, because then if you're right, erm then you would achieve everything you are entitled to achieve, by your counterclaim, that would achieve the objectives of article eighty five, erm whereas the collection of the money would achieve the objectives of the directive
my Lord,
that was the suggestion I put to er Mr , Mr  erm 
my Lord, my Lord, two answers 
then adopted  you're wrong they eloquently adopted them as my Lord, erm first of all article eighty five is direct my Lordship has heard all about that, to do that would be rendering excessively difficult the enforcement of the directly effective provision and your Lordship has no jurisdiction to do that
erm
because we would not be able to raise it as a shield in that one respect, now if your Lordship tried and then said well alright we stay the counterclaim is a set off, then what would your Lordship be intending to do about the remaining defences to say we're not allowed defend our claim er at all on the basis of article eighty five will that be 
that you say remaining def what remaining defences?
well the, er I mean my Lord, if your Lordship
I mean if you've got other non  and we're assuming 
set aside 
we're assuming for the purposes of the argument that you haven't, I mean it's gotta be, you've got other defences altogether er and indeed  terms of which I haven't made my mind up yet, but with judgement and your duty of care erm may themselves solve this particular problem 
er my Lord yes
I quite agree, but if they, if those exists well then there's a, erm  well, I suppose again Mr  might actually then adopt even further my article five suggestion 
say that you're not allowed to, to run those because they'd be contrary to the directive, but er we'd have to wait and see
that would be to completely undermine the effect of article eighty five, we simply wouldn't be able to raise our shield at all, we would have a counterclaim but at which point since we had no of what  erm, for example as one of it's principal defences, defences, erm we would say we've made the plaintiffs case very much easier, they've now got all our money, we're bankrupt, we can't pursue our claim because we've got no money to pursue it with  in article eighty five would of been completely undermined because we would not of had a realistic opportunity to raise article eighty five as a defence and your Lordship to do that would of had to not only set aside the counterclaim as a set off, but also to set aside the entire eighty five defence to stayed it or to have set it aside
but of course we're assuming for the purposes of the argument that er, that erm, your  that is a matter of Eng English law, the matters of which you make complaint are a defence or set off
my Lord we there is 
er but if there're not 
My Lord we've assumed as a matter of English law that I think the counterclaim can arise as a set off, but the other matters are a matter of community law
mm
not English law 
yes 
my Lord, er, er, in, in my submission the, the, the highest really  could put their case is that if the matter were referred your Lordship simply didn't stay proceedings or permitted them for example to apply for interim payment or permitted them to take some procedural steps to pursue their action so that they weren't unduly delayed should they succeed at the end of the day  and that would be a major concession because it would run against a normal rule cos on a reference the entire proceedings are stayed, that's not a case just saying even if that is done, er that anybody is saying that particular measure is or is good is not good or may not be forced in the interim
mm
because validity of the section fourteen is the question for ultimate trial, we're not seeking interim relief against that, we haven't done that  my Lord that in our submission is the highest and the best that they could achieve erm properly erm which was to avoid a stay on a reference and they could then continue with the proceedings rather than be put off for a, a very, you know what maybe a year and a half, er if the court dealt with it in the normal way, or perhaps even a little bit longer, erm, but to actually go to further than that and to deny the defendant the right to put up a, a proper E E C defence, my Lord in my submission would be erm without the jurisdiction of the court.
yes
My Lord erm just to sweep up one or two of the other, very briefly the points my learned friend has just raised, erm  I, I think it follows that our provisional position at the moment is that we think that reference is probably more satisfactory than simply going to the commission, what went, if your Lordship went to the commission and then found that they were unsatisfactory or didn't really take matters further, for one of the reasons it might very well not, is because the original complaint put to the commission was not framed in the same way as the defence and counterclaim are now framed, er there's been a very considerable amount of refinement, both parties would no doubt wish to put submissions into the commission as to how the answer should be put or to provide information so the commission can answer them and so on and so forth and it may not be any quicker doing it that way 
mm 
than going to the court, erm for
the only attraction of that is would be if you could both be able to tell me that if I erm, wrote them a letter, or you wrote them a letter on my behalf erm and they say of yes they are going to deal with this  erm next Friday or something
it would be quite good idea to wait till next Friday, but the, the chances of that seem to be totally remote
my Lord I would think that
now
probably not even that high
apart from anything else er, er, er your complaint has been rather overtaken by events and, and both parties would no doubt wish to  to or may well wish to take further, er, but I think you'll both agree that prospects of er let say getting any meaningful answer out of the commission by Christmas are remote.
Well my Lord the position as er your Lordship is aware from the letter exhibited to Mrs  affidavit is the commission were informed in neutral terms
mm
about this hearing
yes
they've had a copy of the order, we have heard no reply from them so 
no 
My Lord very briefly just sweeping up one or two points, my Lord I don't think I need to  because as I say we're not challenging the law, erm I don't think that's the right context in which these, these problem arise
yes
er my Lord simply directives under one art article one, eight, nine, erm I can, very simply say in relation to the Lloyds Act and to the bye laws they were adopted ten years after the directive, there can't therefore be an implementation, they, they, the the implementation is fully set out in the Insurance Companies Act nineteen eighty two and it quite clear now  because the Secretary of S 
well I'm not sure I'm not sure they can't  implementation I mean, we're, we're supposed to erm implement erm, equal, pension, rights for men and women
mm
we're not actually going to finish doing that until twenty twenty which will be er  nearly forty years on really
look, look, may I put it this way, we're in the directive of  being able to point to something which permits the Secretary of State to delegate the function, that what's it for 
well I do think I have, I have those points, erm, I don't want to stop you Mr  er, and I do repeat I'm going to, I'm going to rule on these matters and both parties have er, erm, will have certainly have full liberty to come back and, and deal with them, I just wanted to know in outline the present  parties er to the future of these proceedings
er, er the one thing that has come clear through er your submission Mr  is that you're not er in any way enamoured of the idea that there should be some scheme whereby your clients erm pay their central fund and demands and er, er, and erm maintain their counterclaim here after
my Lord indeed I hope that has come across very clearly 
yes well I'd be rather surprised if you acceded to the idea, erm, yeah, can Mr  help us on that this position?
my Lord I can I'm sitting early tomorrow because a witness is being cross examined by Mr  got to go off to  so tomorrow he simply could not er, he si simply could not be released but er with your clerk er we've been able to speak to Mr 
mm
we've been slightly more amenable but  invite to your club  temerity to ask your Lordship rather me, but as I'm on my feet, er ask your Lordship whether you could sit at all early on Friday as to help Mr  er, I, I was little concerned to hear Mr  say that he was going to wait for Mr  he had responded because that would of course then extend more into Friday, it may be more sensible if Mr  could have 
well you would  if, I think it's unsatisfactory er to get to ask Mr  to deal with Mr 
yes my Lord
and then Mr  I think necessarily may be saying something the same as or, along the same lines as Mr  and then Mr  have er yet another go, I think it, that's in which case I'm not very satisfactory because er it means that Mr  has got to reassemble his final remarks erm, twice
my Lord in which case I think,ev even with Mr  putting in his notice  will, it's bound to take an hour
yes
erm may I suggest Mr  if your Lordship would care to sit at ten o'clock and then  think he'll get  at eleven fifteen, but really in 
erm 
under very great stress he's, already lost one judge because this  
well I think erm, the short answer is that I can't erm, erm provide the parties with any time on Friday, er, the case, this case has already some what over run it's estimate, which has put pressure on the commercial judge as it is, there's gonna be even more pressure on Friday, erm, I'm afraid to say the, that the complexities of this case as such that I cannot erm begin to think that even if we started at ten we would erm, necessarily finish within the hour, I have difficulties starting at ten o'clock anyway, I think we'll simply have to erm, put the matter off, off until Monday morning I, Mr  can't attend I really don't think that I can erm put it off er any longer than that
er my Lord he'll obviously have to make enquiries as to whether he can ask his next case to, to start 
mm, erm  because I've got to provide some, some answer before Christmas even if it, even if the answer is that I can't provide an answer
yes
erm, er and I'm have to take some time over this, so I think erm in the circumstances the better thing to do would be to adjourn this case till Monday morning and hope that Mr  can so arrange his affairs to address me at half past ten on that day, er with Mr  and with erm, whatever rights he has to erm deal with matters  of this, come up a fresh in reply and to finish off, I'm gonna leave it like that, a very much, and as I say as far, as far as tomorrow's concerned that's er not a difficulty with erm, either Mr  informs me which is unlikely or I can, at least get a, make a start, er on the other aspects of the judgement, alright then half past ten on Monday morning
court rise 

Okay, welcome to 'Influencing Skills' we we always do the  fancy bits of, erm, whatever, I'll change the words this time, because I'm getting a bit bored with the way we normally do it,name.
Erm, what we'd like to know for for all of our sake's really, is who we are, and where we're from, what we're doing here, how long have we been doing whatever it is that we're doing here, erm where we come from, a little bit abo about our history, and any details, usual points, that you just  Er, my name's David.
Perhaps I ought to explain why I've got Peter here.
No Peter.
Maybe not.
Erm, Peter's not here, okay.
Erm, Peter will be here tomorrow morning, he's unfortunately been called away to  er, today, and er, but he will be joining us tomorrow morning, early.
So 
No.
He'll join us tomorrow morning, he'll join us tomorrow morning.
Er, he sends his apologies  rather urgent  to get things sorted out.
Erm, so let's explain why we can help Peter.
My name is David .
I'm a tutor here at er at the Manor.
Er, I've been now for six and a half years, I think, at the last count, er, I know I've served just over half my sentence.
So you can work it out now, how old I am  Erm, what I do, is I run training courses and er, they are Management Skills Courses, they are not anything to do with insurances, because I know absolutely damn all about insurance.
All that I know about insurance I have gleamed from courses such as this.
Erm, because before I joined the Commercial Union I came training straight from the training centre, I worked for er, Industrial Training Board, in fact, dealing with a number of Plastics Industries.
I've heard all the jokes about that.
And er, I used to believe that plastics was good, before I met  er, disillusioned me of this.
Erm, and I worked for them for about twelve or thirteen years, I suppose, trolling around sout south of England.
We had reorganisations there, you know, every time they had a reorganisation a patch got bigger, and the workload got heavier, er, and in the last ten months of my period there, I did sort of thirty five thousand miles and a job as well, so I thought, blimey  I'm into mortality tables, if somebody else's car had got my name written on it, so I decided to take a change.
We all make mistakes.
Erm, but ac actually I thoroughly enjoy working for Commercial Union, especially if you  erm, he's taking all the 
Erm, I'd like to to welcome you to the Industrial Training Board, I spent about four and a half years  with training scheme,and I actually originated in er, engineering, so er, I've got a long track record, perhaps of training and er, an even long track record working,so I won't give you too hard a time.
Er, that's really me.
Who's like to to explain wh who they are and whatever.
Why not , yes.
Erm, I  from Edinburgh branch, I'm the Assistant Manager of Services there,erm, that means I'm in charge of Personnel and Admin, erm, Personal Insurances and our Technical Services Unit.
Er, been with C U for er, six and a half years as well.
Erm, joined as Management Training.
Went to the usual training courses and General Branch.
Erm, went, decided I wanted to be on the sort of management side.
Went through Section Head of various departments and became the A M S there or M P S as it was at the time.
Er, about two and a half years ago, erm, before that, er, just at college, so this is my first real job selection.
Right.
Take a seat.
One of the things I will be doing is going round is just checking out the learning goals.
Now learning goals for those that that didn't actually, sort of, get round to sending the little pre-addressed form.
This is a form that we asked you to complete and send down, and some people have done it, and some people hadn't.  so should get er, a bonus point for that.
Erm, just want to check out that this is still roughly right.
Erm, it's only general filling  er, and it was mainly to develop assertiveness skills and confidence in putting forward your own ideas.
This  any more, additional  on it.
No, no, that's fine.
You're quite happy with that.
Excellent.
Excellent.
Okay.
Er, we'll come back, perhaps after we've been there.
To tell us about the the little problem we reported on, reported on something we want to look at, we can home in on some activity.
Excellent.
I've got it.
I've got accused of  people.
Okay, John, you go for it, because you're 
Er, John  work for Management Services, I'm a Systems Analyst and been with C U for just over three years now.
Before that I worked fifteen years for a international bank.
Er, prior to that I was trained as an electrician.
So I've done a variety of jobs, and I'm not quite sure how I ended up doing what I'm doing  I got into computers by accident, just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I don't believe that, John.
No, seriously, that's true.
I found out they had a computer in the bottom of the building when I worked in the bank and it started off from that.
I've done everything,programme, erm, Systems Analyst, I've done it all.
Good.
Tried it all, so I thought I'd come here
Been there, done this,
Yeah, a bit like the advert on television.
Great.
Thanks, John.
And and, and how does this sort of match up with er, of 
No, I mean, that's that's 
That's reasonable.
That's fine, yeah.
They have state er, in your case, clearly, contributional, concise and without rambling.
Tendency to waffle occasionally.
Yeah, but I'm sure, I appreciate that.
No, I didn't, no, I didn't, no honestly.
Er, er be able to handle questions in a comfortable way.
And er, become more assertive with my dealings with others.
Yeah.
Yes.
That's true.
Whatever that means, and we'll discover those as we go along.
Are you happy with those?
Yes.
Any additions, subtractions.
No.
No.
Good.
Thank you, John.
At the back, I see a, I see a movement from Phil.
I'm Phil  and I work in, erm,Mar Marketing Department, down in Croydon.
Been in C U for three years.
Joined as an M C. Erm, effectively I I mean I work in a Direct Marketing Department, all the junk mail for the un uneducated.
Erm, handling a lot of the life erm,that we do.
Prior to C U I came straight from University, so, I assumed  Business Data Course.
Right.
Have we got one of these?
Er, you should have, yeah, but it'll probably arrive Friday, because I'm a late replacement.
Oh, really, oh  shall we make allowances for him.
Shall we, it depends who else hasn't done it.
Okay, look, I haven't actually had a copy.
You've obviously got it there.
Yep.
And do you want to give us a clue about what it says.
Yeah, I mean,ef effectively, much of my job is involved with erm, handling negotiations, whether it be internal departments or at agencies, or whatever.
Right.
And, obviously to get them to do the right job in the right, within the right timescales.
Right.
Erm, you need influencing and negotiation skills.
within timescales and 
Erm, like getting to the right thing 
Right.
in the right time, effectively.
Okay.
Good.
And obviously they have their own priorities, so they don't necessarily, they're not necessarily geared up for that.
Phil, that's strange.
Yeah, I know.
Why don't they, wouldn't it be easier to 
the other one is effectively developing confidence in handling these these situations.
how do you come to  Anything else.
Happy with those.
Mhm.
Great.
Thank you Phil.
Can I have a go now?
Well done, Rosemary.
Rosemary.
set up.
That's er  point.
Right, I'm Rosemary  I am a Technical Leader at Management Services in  which is a a fairly new role.
A Technical Leader?
A Technical Leader.
Yes.
Erm, it's fairly  interesting.
Indeed.
I'm, I've worked at C U on er, for for many years.
I joined erm, a branch that no longer exists, from school.
A  branch in London, and worked on personal assurances.
From there I  test programme unit, joined er,as a trainee programmer, having spent five weeks here first which was er,first and last.
course that was say on here.
Erm, from there I've erm, worked for  four years, I've taken erm, a break to have children.
I've erm, returned to work contracting and in fact, at Commercial Union for the last three years.
Lived all my life in the south of England.
Never living north of London.
And north of Watford.
Never been to Watford.
No.
Those of course, in the south do recognize that when, there are some people in the midlands, sort of , sort of round Northampton area, who try to get in, they won't  they reckon, they reckon that the Watford Gap.
It is a bloody, those of us from the south, now is as Watford, Hertfordshire, sorry about that,you know, we're well happy, you stand no chance of   oh dear, I've got in the eye here, you know, we declared independence years ago.
Good.
Thanks, Rosemary.
manager sent in my objectives, but I can't remember, now.
Well, he sent in erm,
She.
He sent in a a a er,what what's called a nomination form.
Now I've extracted from the nomination form, some things, but I don't know whether you've seen them.
She had discussed them with me.
Do these look something like what they were?
Right.
Okay, if you read and  through, I take the kind of pros and cons of ideas, understanding there are those very active proposals, I've got more of a selling approach with pretending ideas, you know, the candid advervisement like, you tell us  negotiating 
Lovely wording on that one.
Er, and avoid conflict  situations.
Which course did she go on.
learning,I I'm quite sure which course that came up on, yes.
There's there's one, I think that's gonna need clarifying, and that's that this course isn't about presenting, er, it it maybe about adopting a selling approach but it's not about presentation skills.
Mm.
Yes, fair enough.
Erm, I think many of the young people especially go through, never seem to have an interlock er, together to create er, whatever it is they want to .
Which maybe  you are now, I don't know.
Are you happy with that.
Yes.
Any additions, subtractions.
Good.
Thank you for that, Rosemary.
We're running out of options here.
Well done, Clare.
office systems in  erm, for three, four just over four years now.
I haven't been in office systems for all that time.
Er, prior to that, I did a degree at college from Hull.
Said Hull?
Mm.
I could tell it 
Erm, the other points I will probably 
Oh, here we got the the lists that Connie gave me,
Yes.
the lists that Connie gave me,
Erm, probably 
Yes, they are a bit varied, aren't they, yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know whether you've received my  You know, the one my manager just sent me, but I haven't.
You didn't say anything, Mary.
No.
No.
I  I want your  then, Rosemary.
so, have you got some?
Erm, well, yes, vaguely.
Vaguely.
Erm, a lot of my job is going to around branches, erm, and it is charged at,that are on the new systems, and that's  negotiate with the new
management services and branches and what systems have been reduced and the branches that have actually kept the ones they're on to.
Mhm.
And that stuff, usually, so I could just delete  
On what.
On what.
Well on,I do it the right way, because I don't always feel that I am doing it the right way.
Tips on negotiating  er, I put brackets between er office systems, maintenance services and the accusers.
Yep.
You get  that.
No, it's just confidence, really.
But er,
Okay.
Happy with that?
Ecstatic.
Yeah.
Right.
Thanks Clare.
We've come down to the wine 
you can't escape any long, now.
I've just driven down from Manchester and I'm slightly knackered.
But er,
We did notice the old   just had a late night on the town.
Er, we did sample of the regional wines, last night erm.
Been with C U for about two years last September, er started management training, came straight from University, erm, tt  several section section head erm, starting with with various instructional outside  they call it process control.
Erm, why that exact name, I wasn't sure.
Erm, live in Manchester, my natural place is Stockport which is, a little just outside Stockport, where I've lived  Erm, it's taken me years to live 
a bloody long time.
Okay.
So I mean, er, I'm I'm really stumped down on the course, because erm, you know, all all my usual but jokes seem to be here, I mean
I daren't say anything about  Chinese.
Er, or management services.
assistants are in doubt  It looks like it's going to be group supply in here.
If there's any reason why I can have  group supply, is that you can always pick on somebody to blame it all on, of course.
That's true.
But we didn't  pick on you,
No.
No.
I don't know whether it's circumstantial , or maybe didn't actually send it.
Oh I didn't send it, no, I presumed my er, my managers would have  it's a, it's a specifically to do with appraisals, erm, persuading  to think I'm entitled to five hundred pound a day, or some something like that.
Don't tell me.
from my point of view.
Yeah.
anything else?
Erm, no,
Okay.
You've come a long way from Manchester to deal with that.
I'm sure we'll develop something 
I'm sure we'll develop something to go  Okay.
group, erm, must take those up at some stage and and transfer them to the wall.
One of the things I'd like to know, erm, fairly on in the course is is your asked to bring along some thought, something you were trying to influence somebody about.
So it would be used then, as a a working model, if you like, er, through the course.
Erm, could I ask you to just share with us briefly, er, not in great detail, but, just a few words about what it is that you want to influence somebody about.
Sort of share with you, give me some clue about how we can organise the rest of the course as well.
Let's let, s go .
Yeah, sure.
Yeah, let's go then.
Erm, well, luckily my section manager is a forty-six year old woman who is erm,section like that, at the bottom of the copy of the report.
Right.
Erm, I like it there to be filled in by the managers  older by about two years or so.
Mhm.
Erm, erm, I mean, she doesn't have a very strong character, but erm, on the scale of 
Erm, I'm sure she'll make  he reckons about half an hour  erm, to make sure that 
Right.
Good.
Just a couple of things I want to check out.
Yeah.
I think we're not going to talk about processing.
Yes, erm, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Appraisals, you appreciate that we're not going to talk about processing appraisals.
Which is another course.
Book early in the new year.
There are places available.
Er, collect the forms on the way out.
Erm, the other aspect is that you have actually got line authority on this Phil.
Yeah, that's right.
Can I just check out that what you're actually talking about is influencing that.
Yes.
Rather than directing, be directive.
You wanted to
Well, it's it's this, during discussion, erm, I've got to bring her round to my point of view  rather than on her point of view, and discussing the erm,
Okay.
Erm  fine.
Er, er I think this is a general point, because we'll talk in a moment about what is influencing,
Yeah,
and classically one of the problems is, that we get situations where, at the end of the line, you've got a line authority on somebody, you say, I hear it all, I hear it all.
Now do it.
Mm.
Er, because I have line authority on you.
I am your manager, I'm your boss.
Do it.
Erm, at which point influencing has somewhat become a bit of a waste of time.
Yeah.
It becomes just two fingers in the eye type of thing.
Erm, but you're saying, you don't, you want to get it right without doing that.
That's right.
Fine.
Okay.
We'll go with that one.
group you didn't, if you'd said no there, I just threw it down and said well, you'd better think of another one.
Okay, thanks Tony.
Let's work round, Rosemary.
Right, erm, how can I explain, without being too technical.
Oh, don't worry about it.
Imagine  aren't normally, but erm,
We're, we're, I'll tell you what, we we're stuck here, every time you say something, we don't understand, Rosemary, we'll we'll get a check out.
Yeah, you know,I start of all this sensibly.
Sorry.
I'll can I just check sensibly it might be something  
Aw, ah ah  my dear.
like the course assessor.
Sorry, Rosemary.
Carry on.
In programming, if something's called J S P Jackson Struction Pro-level Method, and erm, I think I can introduce a slightly modified way of using it.
Er, a more sensible way of using it, providing divisional  good ideas.
Yes.
And this has been accepted by an authority of people on site, erm, presentations with management authority  you know, they've all been told that they must follow union rules.
Erm, are now in the process of following up to see if who has made er the switch to the new regime, and I have been approached by one project leader who has two programmers who refused to change, and has asked for help.
Right.
You know, so before I approach them, they've gonna have to quit the union 
And certainly there is a situation where you don't have line on it, line of approach on it.
No direct  
You've just got to talk to them about J S P, which is a subject very close to my heart.
First time 
The first time I saw this, when I was up in  I thought, look at that, can't even get John Player Special round the right way.
Yes, so it's it's something where you've got to try and influence somebody to to change to a new way of doing it.
That's right.
Good example.
Erm  so it's two people on that section.
Er, just so that we can see which way we're working, John, can I just check out, have you the faintest idea what the hell she's talking about?
Yes.
Oh, excellent.
In case 
Well, I know, I know,pleased.
Kids are gonna be role playing there, and think, there's there's somebody else wants to jump in, you know, and then, because 
No, I've got my own views on it, now.
Aw, aw, that sounds good, good.
Rosemary.
seriously  
It's it's funny  he's just checking under the  
It's funny you should be here, John.
Er,John.
Probably won't come as a surprise to you, but er, I've been working on a training system.
For a department within C U and er we've done this design  on it, and come up with a new system, that we want to try and sell to other departments within the company.
Now there is one department in particular that already have a training system in place, albeit the old volume two, but having said that, it works quite well, really.
But, they're going to be made on, in fact, it's going to be pushed rather heavily they change to this new system, and they're going to have to meet some of the costs of development of the new system.
Erm, what they need to be able to do is just be able to gently lead it along the right tunnel 
Right.
To to accept it.
It's not clear at the moment, whether we gonna get too much opposition, I mean,they might just sort cave in straight at the beginning and then take it on board, but er, there's definite potential there.
They've they've asked for a few changes to their older system, and this new one will give them all that they want, plus a load that they don't want.
And I get the impression that they're probably just quite happy to live with what they currently have, so I think it's just.
That's the only problem  get a  and try it  get influence,got to tactful about it, you know.
Yes, of course.
It goes without saying.
I mean, one of the things that quite often comes across at various elements of this course, is that the word selling comes out.
Erm, because it is a, many of the the aspects of the United Kingdom, you know, from every  try making something, been trying to sell them on to you.
So, let's have a, an interesting  and er, tell us why  other department makes life clear.
Erm, well, at the moment I'm involved in a a big project, new benefits claims, erm, and so if the new claims system could echo which  priorities in that  department, erm, and it looks like it will be long drawn out eventually at the end of next year, nationwide  and effectively it's a English processing system whereby terms coming in and they're scanned and you can see images on a screen, so there's gonna be no  calls, what my, what my role in this is, gonna be to get the branches to accept the system.
And 
So I'm gonna need to to influence them, to actually to accept the whole concept of change and, you know, all of them really.
But er,That's what I would quite like to  today,
You gonna come back tomorrow.
I'm gonna come back tomorrow.
Excellent, Clare  bit of fun there   Fine.
I I I take it a great er, challenge now, I've only ever lost three delegates, only three delegates ever walked out on course on me, so, don't, you know, don't ruin my 
About  six, two people already had the sense not to come.
on to that one.
Does anybody understand vaguely what Clare's talking about  heard of this example.
Mm, I've heard it, yeah.
You know much about it.
Don't argue.
No, I never.
What I know is  sense of  others profits.
Oh,
So it's not only got to be done, that's the problem.
Well get somebody in,
Somebody who imagine they don't like it, Clare, in fact, you know.
You can always fix some objections.
Okay.
Thanks again.
market  Phil.
Right, well, ninety per cent of the work that I do is effectively what what we call third party mailing  whereby we will take erm, an insurance brokers client list, erm, and mail them the C U product.
Erm, and they will earn commission on that.
Now, for more important brokers, what tends to happen is, er the Direct Marketing Manager, my boss will go out and meet these brokers, and er, effectively cost him the earth, erm.
All things being equal we could probably turn one of these things around, which is basically preparing all the literature, briefing the systems people and getting it all printed up and everything in about six weeks.
But we've er, other projects and er, things going on, we are dealing with like, anything up to sixteen weeks ahead of it.
And of course, as I say, it costs us the earth.
So, we constantly being plagued by tight deadlines erm which means that, when incurring a additional costs, from overtime work, the printers and many things like that.
So what I'd like to do is erm, balance out the influence in him, prior to going out and making these negotiations erm, so that he comes back with a a suitable timescale for us to deal with it, and hasn't promised them the earth in the way of commission or er, print changes or whatever.
Mm.
Is that selling er,selling  in terms of time.
Flexing their 
And, and what do they get  commission?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Good.
At least we did have  boss, sometime  it's not being good  you can say, they've been good, and they say ah, it's just what Phil wants.
yeah 
Instead of saying  you know,or something.
Okay.
Next 
Erm, I had a bit difficulty coming up with a case,actually, erm, this 
No problems.
No, no, not that.
It's just that this year I have had a lot of weak influencing situations, been on a lot of projects groups and so on, and last year I needed a lot of extra staff.
So maybe we would have been great to have the skills before I did it, and that's why I am on the course this   Erm, the only thing that I can think of that's erm, something that I do believe and I am committed to getting changed, is er, a system in our offices, in one of our departments, but I do have erm, authority over the people that I would be talking to, so, I know at the end of the day, I could just say, do it, but I'm trying to get them to believe in changing erm, and just sort of certain benefits of it.
Basically the system is our  cover note book control, er, we issue  cover note books to agents and it's up to us to make sure that they're all issued in sequence, as their legal documents etc, and a minute a gap comes up we have to chase them etc, it's run by erm, people quite low units and they  scared of a job and tend to put it off as lose, and I want to visit and try and influence them so I can give them some help and to change it and bring it up to date, because it's er.
We got it up to date recently, but it was a major job and it always slips back, so.
That's really 
The influence is really to get the system, and keep it running.
Yes.
Suppose to have to  
Aha.
Catch up  
yeah.
Which soak up more time 
Mhm.
Okay.
As you say, it's lying but
Mhm.
What you're really saying, I think is, that you actually want to do it
Mhm.
whether they want to do it,
Yes.
rather than you, because your telling them.
That's right, 'cos they might not do it.
Well, they will, they will do it, but they won't want to do it er, you know, like committing themselves if you tell them to.
No.
They do that, don't they?
They say, yes boss, yes.
They do things like, that's a terrific idea, boss.
Er, I agree with you totally.
And they're shaking their head, and they're saying no, it isn't.
I think they're saying one thing, and they do something else.
Er, commitment,
Mhm.
I think perhaps er, is probably your answer.
That means trying to get them commit committed in the nicest possible way.
Mhm.
They no longer get co committed under the old way.
Okay.
Thanks for that group.
Er, I think they sound like a good set of people you can work with, though.
I tell you, I make that point, that we we have to, to try and not vet, but to check you out, if we've got somebody that's understandable, realistic, because we have had examples on this course, where erm, with the best will in the world, and the systems are the right hand of God, erm, the projects that people have brought along, the case studies that people have brought along, won't work.
Er, the most extreme case, of which I think was a project accountant on U K finance.
He came along with a project which was to get to get somebody to change in a company where we bought forty per cent of it.
Forty per cent is insignificant, the sixty per cent was still owned by the man and his company, and somebody in the organisation, I know this sounds fairly tall, had said go and get this company to do this, because it works for us, Commercial Union.
Well, of course the guy with the sixty per cent just kept saying, you know, up yours, in the nicest possible way, you know, it may work for you, but why should I do it when I get no benefit from it, and I own sixty per cent of this outfit.
Go away.
Now with the best will in the world, there is no way that that fellow could get this other party to change.
Would you?
But he was sort of being destructive, quite a boss to go and get them to do it, and they wouldn't.
Well, you never go in an unrealistic influencing situation, and er, the other one would have said, well, we've had situations where it has been very much a line type decision.
Or somebody saying, yeah, I took, I want them to do it because,they're actually underlying, and er, if either of these cases, where there is lying, if you drop into line, er what we do in case studies, or working through it, I shall say stop, start again,okay.
Good.
Okay, group.
Good stuff, well done.
Thank you very much.
Now we're on the road, er, let's see what other goodies we've got over here going on, oh, yes, we're checking out how well people are being briefed before they came on the course.
I mean, come on,but I do understand that some of you were briefed or, or  Don't worry about this now, but we would like this briefing questionnaire back before you leave on Wednesday, er, if you were a late replacement, could you just make that plain on there, er, if you weren't briefed, you've got the shortest questionnaire in the world to fill in.
You get to page two, and it said, were you, and you say no and that's it.
Er, if on the other hand, you can yes, then you can see a little bit further down the line, but don't worry about those now.
In a in a quiet moment, er, perhaps you could fill those in and then send them back, say, before we finish on the Wednesday.
One of the things that's perhaps a little difficult to say with that tape recorder running in the middle of the room, is, that this course offers, operates a sense of code of confidentiality, and I'm not sure how this is going to work.
somebody else out there who's hearing every word we're saying.
What er, we would normally say is that, what you say in here doesn't leave this room via Peter and myself, er, in order, sometimes, to talk about the other situations, I think perhaps we'll we'll have an agreement, with whoever's gonna pick this tape up afterwards.
If at any stage, somebody wants to talk turkey, and mentions people's names, they'll indicate that and we'll switch the tape off whilst we talk about him.
Yeah?
Because I think it's important, that quite often in influence situations, we get down to the real nitty gritty.
We actually start mentioning names.
At this stage, John will say, like another department.
Up to, you know, few hours where we've been together, he'll actually be prepared or at least to the rest of us, who the hell he's talking about.
People will say, you know, this person, and they won't mention their names, after a few hours together, we start to get to grips with the nature of influencing, and the names start falling out.
So there's a general agreement for every well there will for me, like, if at any stage you want to talk turkey.
Talk people, just say, I want to talk and you can't tape, until you've  like conversation.
Plus the favourite one, at a certain stage is  is just to leave it off.
Okay.
So, we've got some learning  books, well done.
Remember where we're going.
at the moment.
One of the things we need to think about, quite early on, I suppose, is er, is the nature of what we're actually talking about.
What are we talking about?
What's this course we're on?
Influence Course.
In thank you, John.
influencing.
Now, one of the things that I find increasing  increasingly so, is the fact that words become popular, don't they?
Er, words are in words.
We had words of the sixties, there were words of the seventies, there were words of the eighties, words of the nineties, and we're influencing by those words, actually that's reasonably in popularity and er increasing usage, and sometime we, people actually use it and they don't know what it means.
Sometimes people don't actually understand what the hell they mean, when they say it anyway.
So, the first little bit of exercise we're gonna do is, I'm gonna ask you to, just work in pairs for about five minutes.
Just looking at how to use a word, and I'm better gonna have a look.
Work in pairs, just round the table, don't be embarrassed with, John, Clare, Phil and Ed.
Just spend five minutes putting your thoughts down on paper.
What are the words, what are the expressions that come to mind when you say influencing.
What are things, other meanings of it.
A word that coins the same message.
You know.
Er, try, let's try and get it home and understanding of what the word means.
Whilst we're doing this exercise, we'll switch the tape off.
So let's take some er, some music.
What sort of things, what sort of words, come to mind when you hear the word influencing.
Shoot me.
swine.
Now this pen doesn't spell double R R. Okay, I've got to warn you,said the spelling, keep getting office systems to try and get us some decent colouring pens, but they don't.
Does that look right.
It doesn't look right from up here.
One of the other problems from standing close  that's right.
This  oh sorry that's a stroke  
Ah 
I think it's got two S S's
He who has the pen, has the power.
Okay,
Leading.
Leading.
The pen's doing all right in the programme.
Negotiations.
Negotiations.
Has it got to be one word answers?
Not necessarily, no.
Frenzies have been 
Affecting a change.
Affecting a change.
Got that one.
Yes.
Affecting a change.
Good.
A bit strong, isn't it.
No, as you say  
Yeah.
Go for commercial C 
C A C A M P 
was an S
Don't know what you mean.
Coercion, Coercing.
Yes.
Selling.
Selling, and they've been listening already.
Yes.
Good.
Convincing.
Convincing.
Good
Assertiveness.
Assertiveness.
You've been reading the programme as well.
Good.
Managing.
Managing.
Affective.
Affective   Right.
So you want to fill in the spaces, you thought, you, having nothing at the bottom of the page, but the big gaps 
There's more?
Proposing.
Proposing.
Right.
Got a long one here.
Bringing about a change of heart.
Bringing about a change of heart.
Oh 
when he's here.
heart.
I think 
Communicating.
Communicating.
How about  a bit of a stupid answer.
Being very revolutionary, in'ya, John.
You sure this'll catch on.
You sure this'll catch on 
Don't know.
Yeah, it sounds like a good idea to me.
Yes.
Any more.
Yeah, I got one, expressing a view, got to be the one 
All right.
Expressing a view.
Yeah.
Any more.
Okay.
That's a pretty er comprehensive list.
Actually longer than the list we've got.
Erm, well done.
It's about, when you look at influencing, some of these parts are component parts  some of 'em are, some of them are, ancillary associated skills, which help us influence.
Er, some of them are different words, for influencing on, a bit a bit of a mis-match here of mish-mash, rather of those different aspects.
Er, but essentially, let's look at what we're saying.
nobody's saying.
You're saying that there are certain things which are, maybe words which are alternatives or part of
Influencing.
What might there be.
What might be the alternative words to influencing  or, alternative phrases 
Persuade.
Persuade, I think is probably one, isn't it, which is a different, a different word, something that might be using in it's place.
Others 
Affecting.
Affecting.
get the only one.
That's it.
Yes.
Again.
Any others?
Yes.
Right.
Convincing.
Oh yes, I was gonna say, I think convincing is is another word that goes along with the general ambience of what influencing is about.
Sorry, the ghost hasn't come over from the other side of the door, it just keeps moving by itself.
I think it's the wind.
Er, any other words there that particularly that we would use, er you know, replacement for the word influencing.
I think coercing probably 
Yeah, in a fairly sort of that's a bit of a  coercing, isn't it, maybe in to er, dirty tricks department.
Mm.
But it's moving towards that end, where, do it or else.
Yeah.
Recognise that er, the implications of that  but you're right,co coercing could be er an adve a rather negative end of influence.
Erm, you're getting into  sort of aspect.
Er, some of the others though, one minute, I don't want to pick out all of them, but, some of the others recognise they are actually parts of influencing,wh what what might be parts of the influencing.
What associated skills do we 
Reading  listening.
Yeah, er reading and listening are certainly a part, sorry, no skills which you haven't got, you gonna have a problem, in terms of influencing.
To be 
To be  brilliant.
How can you influence people if you can't communicate with them one way or another.
The answer is, with great difficulty.
Er, the other s 
Sorry yeah, certainly, part of it thinking about the way on which we put together a package of ideas, and how we're going to get that across and sell that to the other party.
Excellent.
Any others?
I think our party, I think managing is very much about organising, nothing in the directive form of management 
But managing a situation.
If you don't manage influence, what actually happens?
If you don't manage anything, what happens.
control.
Exact control.
You've got two options basically, in your influencing to be either, your in control or your not in control.
And if you're not in control, you've usually got chaos  coming very shortly.
Erm, for considering, is an aspect of other parts of the  for you to go.
I mean, the sort of things we got down are persuasion, motivated to do something, people see things as you see them, changing the way things are done, getting a view point across, solutions accepted, getting other party to accept change, you've got the words up there.
Erm, getting the other party to cons consider your views.
The dove-tailing of ideas into to mutual benefit which maybe also aspects of sound.
It's about something, perhaps, that isn't implicit out there.
It may be implied, but I don't think it's it's actually explicit up there, and I think it pond I would like to to recognise what we're going to work towards, and that is influences about choice.
Without recognising that there is something needs to happen,to about recognising choice.
How you're going to approach it, as well as the choice of the outcome as well.
Er, and it's also about  you're going to erm, take two inputs when we need to recognise you need choice and you also need flexibility as well.
So one word we came down here to talk about, and hey, here's a whole lot things.
It's a whole mess of things, it's a combination of those sort of things put together, that actually makes influence.
Think of people that have influenced you in the past, and got you to do things, which, if you look back, and you think, that was very clever.
I I wasn't even going to do that, I didn't want to do that.
But they did, they got me to change, because I suppose all the words up there, and I'm gonna find three most significant ones that  and change, er, because while you influence somebody to turn from what they were doing, probably not too often, but it's usually about something, when you think about the examples that you brought along, and you knew all about change.
Wanting to something to do totally differently.
And influencing to do it without  alternatives we're gonna have when we're managers.
So, there's a whole concept of things we we need to er, to remember, what influencing is about.
We're gonna come back to some of the  as we work through.
But what I'd like to do before we progress much farther, is just to, just to think, maybe about some of the things that I've said there, some of the things that we've already spoken about.
Some of the things that you probably went through when you padlocked together.
But there's two questions, two questions to answer, erm, why do we need influence?
That your views were on those two questions, and let's take erm, let's stick to views of why do we need influencing, first of all.
Talk us through groups.
Not all at once.
Just one at a time.
Would be helpful, you know,
Ladies first.
No.
The first one is the erm, er,or so, when  directs authority over somebody, will, we don't, we can't tell them to do it, we have to influence or persuade them to do something.
Erm, obviously one needs to change peoples ideas or change the  way we do things or whatever, erm two  relevant position that's sort of making them believe in what they're trying to erm, propose, and getting commitment  at the end.
So that they mean what they're saying.
Some good reasons why we need some of these skills, before we 
Good, er, gentlemen.
erm, bringing about change of this, erm
Yes.
First of all  change erm,
You're thinking about it  
small change.
Erm, it's first of all, I thinking about changing their, like say for example, you know, the guy  speak to me about change, erm a systematic erm  to see the benefits  bringing about change without  his image.
obviously the reasons for 
Good.
seemingly changing.
Every if the reason that something's gotta change is obvious to everybody, then you don't really need to have any influence over their  It usually has to be some considered opinion that you want 
Yes, I mean, if it's blatant and obvious, and there's only one option er, that's the bit  about choice, if there's only way of doing it, and one option, then you don't have to influence people.
Your driving down the road, and you carry on driving if there's no cross-roads.
You gotta carry on driving down the road.
Unless you want to be in the fields.
you've got a problem.
Good.
Yes.
Oh, there's some good reasons why we need this skill.
Okay, so what is it all about.
All of the people, including the ones that  can carry on.
Yes, let's do that.
Let's let's ask the gentlemen to er, in fact I might do that.
by the way, a fatal mistake,sexist 
Are they?
Aye?
Tell us, ladies, what was er, what was some of the things you need to consider, then.
That was gentlemen.
Sorry, gentlemen, you're right.
Yes, one of the important things you need to have influence, is remember peoples names and what sex they are.
Quite right, Rosemary.
You can get yourself 
Right, what's this lot been given.
Well, we need to know what the alternative point of view to our own is.
Erm, we need to know what the position is now, and where we want to be, so, a lot of the influence is going, what change the influence is going to bring about.
reaction.
Erm, our own is, obviously our own reasons for wanting this change but we ought to know the needs of others to see whether they correspond.
Right.
Erm, we need to be convincing in challenge, otherwise the  challenge,erm, we should question whether there is a need for any change, erm, if things have been done in a certain way for a certain period of time, erm, just because we want to change them, doesn't mean to say that it doesn't 
Right.
Erm, the method that we're likely to use, or might be successful in bringing about this change, and once we've done it how it's likely to be effective.
Well said, well said.
But surely in that  when I said let's see whether it  considerations I said.
I think you would agree with him, when he said er, that  
Fifteen all.
Erm, first time, I think of some other things that would erm, would be considered in the light of influencing  erm, got the power structure, it was important,approach and and you talk to your manager 
Yes.
Feelings, personality again,approach.
peoples, can affect where you, which erm, which you needed for some 
Mm.
You need a plan of structurally approach.
About deciding on  important  something important, like going to lunch, you know, going on holiday.
That's right.
And and backing, that's always important, you know, if you've got some support,
Good.
Two very good sets there.
recognise what we've, what we've done so far, erm,but, we're actually track on what you need, I mean, what  why we need it.
That's what we mean, that's why we're  What do you say,to consider for the  to pick up many details.
And well done.
Both groups, for recognising this.
Influence is about change.
About getting things to move along, but when you start breaking down what the other aspects are  about a lot of things, erm it was good influencing, recognise this and somebody will just suddenly say oh,no nothing nothing to do with influencing,
And just walk off, because, you wouldn't have done, what you've just said there.
In terms of consideration.
Er, and they may be little things, but  if you get them wrong, if you firmly recognise the power structure with people working with you, go on, who's your 
Yes.
People of your level don't talk to people of my level, and that's changing the organisation, but it certainly used to  used to be getting  organisations.
Erm, not recognising that there are other people involved.
It's not you and your change, it's them and their changing view you are considering, as well as you.
You've got to live in their world if you gonna affect that change, if you don't live in their world and only live your own, if you don't recognise, er, the problems that they're making in terms of change happens, and those are the  that you are going to give into the  So yes, you can think about yourself and and others, and you can think about the reasons, and you think about the priorities, about planning, about structure level.
About who's it gonna be affecting.
About what backing,we think this is a jargon expression,sponsor, isn't it.
Who's really driving this.
And if you've got big enough names, you can actually move people, quite fast.
You know, if you say David  in most places, it didn't have a hell of a lot of effect after all, he just came  If you sort of mention, like, a name like Walls or Rennells, you got people with feet several, you know, feet off the ground.
er, and moving in the right direction, a whole nest of things, when you think about, if you're going to try and influence something that are influenced, but influence is actually very varied in terms of science.
If the problem you're confronted with is a ten thousand pound bit of influence, then it's worth spending a few hundred pounds in a preparation.
If it's a ten p bit of influence, it's only worth spending a couple of pence  on it.
Get them round the wrong way, of course, and you spend ten thousand pounds worth of preparation on a ten p problem.
And a ten p and people say it's money.
it is, and I have to agree with them, and so would you.
That, you need to recognise and think about, how big is the challenge  how big is their influence.
Because of the situations, some of the ones you've been  on here, have got quite a consider considerable implications.
Erm, in terms of putting the non-running  in your department.
And if you get them right, then it could be not just this time, but other times, could come along and wreck them, sometimes it's a bit like a domino queue, isn't it, you get this one fall down, knocks others down as well.
So.
Good step.
So now we know what it is.
We know why we need it.
We know some of the things, er most of the things, in fact, that we need to do to think in terms of consideration.
We'll come back and pick up some of them aspects as we go along.
Any questions or clarification that either team want from the other team about their views?
No.
The question was asked me, erm, is there a hand-out on this.
The answer is, if they had a particular  general part of the study, but I shall stick them on the wall, er, with Blue Tac, but I shall stick the Blue Tac on the  so I shall just make that point, so that if some particular person whose just taken it on, don't ask about the use of Blue Tac in his room.
It's only a joke, I'll tell you about that in a minute, erm.
Okay, good comment.
Good set group.
Shall we have a a cu cup of tea, I think you've earned a cup of tea, now.
For all our, walking and talking and hard work.
This erm, relates to a model, erm, called a model for developing positive  Very English sounding expression.
I mean, it actually has some four sections to it.
And I'm gonna talk through it in terms of a positive sense, er, and the  different way.
What this model is really saying is that, what we actually do, er, create impressions erm, used.
You can start anywhere on this model.
It has four areas, I happen to have chosen to start it on the point, you could start it  look at, you can see  area, but, this, just look at erm, it's this way round.
The, one of the things that we carried forward to do with influencing, erm memories and attitudes, if you're thinking about in the positive model, positive way, it'd say going into an  situation, I've been here before, and I was successful.
Erm  I know what I'm doing.
I have self esteem.
I can carry this off.
I am very positive in my views, and where I come from.
Yes.
Erm, I feel good, a feel good factor, er, I can  I can change this situation, I can do it.
There's a very positive attitude, yes.
Which in itself, creates a er mood, when you look at things like plans and intentions.
That says that er I know what I'm doing, because I'm positive, erm, I know where I'm going to, and as a consequence I can plan for that.
I know what I want, I can plan for it.
I'll get it.
I can rehearse, I can be totally prepared.
Er, because of them, I have a sense of purpose and I know where I'm going.
So the memory has created a situation where you're looking for a planned intention was  developing and I and suc suc suc and I was successful.
I can actually plan and get my directions in a very positive sense.
Does that make sense?
Sorry, sense,do you know what I mean.
So when you actually come to erm, try and influence somebody,you you're actual behaviour in there is based on sound er preparation, sound positive thoughts.
So that when you're actually into a situation, your external behaviour is generating situations of positive vibes.
Body language, there you go.
Er, you would be persuasive, the language that you use will be in a positive sense, a positive vein.
You will actually
you'll hear, you'll listen because you want to find out what the other party's views are relative to where you're trying to take them.
Yes.
Er, you express yourself  appropriately, because you will be confident and know what you're doing.
Yes.
And in itself, that creates in the other party, whoever it is you're trying to er to influence, their responses er, and reactions which will be positive to yours.
And you will have a sense of being trusted, because of what you're doing.
Er, you will be listened to, er, and that will create, and you will have influence, and that cycle will take you back into the positive memories for the next time you try and change something.
Recognise.
It goes round and round and round, on a big wheel.
Many of these models and this is one, where you can actually go in on the, on the opposite side.
It says, positive outcomes.
This you have to recognise.
What sort of things happen though, if you're into the negative side.
Not just talking through a positive side.
What happens er, here, if you're a negative?
Your nervous and apprehensive about doing some 
Right.
Into that situation.
Yes.
You've really run  here.
I've done this before, and it didn't work  and I'm gonna have to do it again, and Q E D, it isn't gonna work.
Because the memories and attitudes of the past are with us.
Now, so you've got bad vibes coming in.
What does that create in terms of what you're doing here in the plans and intentions bit, what does that getting over 
bad , badly 
You're not going to be very positive, certainly, are you.
Er, no plans, er confusion, I mean, that will never do.
Because if you're feeling unsure about it, that's exactly your feelings.
I have been here.
I don't like this.
Perhaps I don't  and it's falling down that trap.
Er, well I'll just do and see what happens.
So, when you actually come and try and do it, what happens?
If you're not playing and feeling bad, what actually happens.
me an answer.
You come across as negative.
In what sort of ways?
In lack of prediction.
Lack of prediction, which will be shown, how?
in your body language,be structured.
Right.
The body language, you won't be structured.
The words that you use.
How many times have you heard somebody trying to convince and influence you on something, and they're using negative words.
I'm printing this up, but I don't think you're going to like it.
Some of you will immediately say, no I don't like it.
They don't even like it, so what don't you like.
They're not convinced, how on earth am I supposed to believe it.
Erm, negative sense of how they expect yo , peculiarity there, that you could all, you can also flick a coin, though.
Er, a very negative form of er, of behaviour, can be, you can actually get highly directive, and start telling people, erm, we've already identified that influences, not having that ability to tell, it's something that people try and do it, it's a, it's a facade, that people put up  and get behind them.
Erm, and say well, I don't think I'm convincing, so I'll try telling them, maybe they won't recognise that I don't have the authority to tell them, and they'll still do it.
Anybody fallen for that one?
No.
Yeah, I have, and they say, ha ha.
and they go and do it.
So, the external behaviour can either be er, well I don't know to ask you to do this, but  their not gonna like this, but, or you can try and tell
Well,story of telling  you had to do it,
Yeah.
Erm, if you  a certain reaction as well.
Things that create, well why should I do it.
Right.
Yes.
I suspect also that it influences your attitude  towards that person.
Right.
Because the cycle goes on, don't it.
The next time you try and  I've been here before, and I didn't get it last time.
Didn't get  last time, and I'm not going to get it this time, either.
Ah, that's a bit of bad news, isn't it.
So the wheel goes on.
Says model for developing positive outcomes, because if it is in a positive cycle, actually the more it goes round, the more positive it gets.
On the other hand, it's also like walking over the end of a plug-hole.
If it's a negative cycle, it also reinforces that negative bit, I've been here before, I didn't feel comfortable, I can't do it, it won't be successful, and all because you're not.
Because it's like the water getting faster and faster around the, around the plug-hole and it all becomes  gentlemen, let's check out you.
So if it suddenly goes the other way round
yeah.
Who cares.
information, er, they did it on erm, one of the programmes they actually put a bucket of water actually on the equator, I don't know if you saw it.
Yes.
But it didn't go anywhere, just went straight down the plug- hole.
Quite incredible.
straddling the line.
And as you say,
I don't care, it's just a useless bit of information, I thought you might like to know about.
It's about watching for this cycle  we do this sort of thing in many aspects of our life.
We build at getting better things, where if we don't actually watch it, we build at getting worse at things.
Because we've been there and we we set, it's a cycle form of prophecy.
Mm.
I don't like this, I'm I'm no good at it.
I can't do it, and when we try and do it, we're no good at it, and we can't do it.
So one of the aspects we're looking for sometimes is recognising when we're in a negative cycle, how you can turn that round to a positive cycle.
If we're in a positive cycle, how can we make it more positive.
Yes.
How about when you work to, when you're in a positive cycle to be aware of the negatives.
Mm.
Why do you think that 
Because, I mean, you could  say something wonderful etc etc 
You could be coming round here to various attitudes and behaviours intentions, behaviours, albeit highly positive, but if you don't recognise what other people are doing, your responses, they, you may feel positive, but if they are saying  er, I just don't accept this sort of thing from you.
It's the sort of thing unfortunately some people say, innit.
You can't have those my dear, those things don't work.
That is an unusual sort of thing to say.
You tend to recognise particularly in that area of other people's responses, and you keep going on, you're bulldozing, aren't you.
Mm.
You keep pushing something along, pushing something along, pushing  Well this is, this is er,who isn't here today.
Peter round here, sort of, he's losing it by now ,er, Peter got his best shirt and tie on.
Dressed for the occasion, see.
Er, so the cycle is is very important, yes, to recognise where you're in the positive cycle, but be aware of other peoples responses.
Equal, I might add, peculiarly sometimes when you're feeling very negative,
Mm.
Around here, a number of people are saying,dear God, what's he talking about.
And you feel working at, pick this up, you can miss those points.
You see, this person's actually very positive, you won't find a fault.
They keep on going on in the negative sense and the bulldozing here, has got you digging a big hole, and you eventually fall into it.
And  expression  twenty five per cent of the hole stop digging.
Erm, you know, you can find this, to actually need to work on where you're at in the cycle and why you're there, and what it means, to what you're trying to do.
Do they not also need turning points, though.
on that.
If you do,on, if you're in a negative cycle, and you do start getting positive reactions, if you're lucky and recognise that, can they not turn the whole thing around?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
The trick is to lo to watch for them, to be aware of them, erm,because we've we've practically, better to go around the cycle, wherever you start, you can say, I chose to start here, but you can start anywhere, the minute you go in and give positive bits, which will create positive reactions, which will give you positive memory.
You don't have to start at a  attitude, but yeah, if you're watching for them, and you start to see signals, you need to be aware of these, because that's really the situation, isn't it, that's why I think you to be aware of influence.
You said we needed to listen, we also got to watch, hear the words, what the words mean.
What they actually   you can get a lot of stuff out of that.
Erm, what do you think he wrote on the other side of that bit of paper in front of you.
What he actually wrote is, is your views on those four stages, relative to this particular situation.
This particular case study.
Do you recognise any.
No.
Know, I don't know why I got you wrote, whether it's positive or negative.
In fact, you may begin to get an inkling now, er, in terms of some of the words that you wrote down there.
I'm seeing a few bright smiles here, which is, er, interesting.
Yeah.
What I'd like to do 
Is to, split up into pairs, and talk to each other about what you've written down.
If it's negative, how are you going to turn it round to a positive.
What can you get, where can you break that cycle.
If it's a positive, how can you make it more positive, remembering our aim really is, good better better better better.
Continuously improving.
Erm, what I'd thought about, because at this stage we'd like to erm, perhaps start to get the feel of these little examples of  application,How do these pairings sound for you.
Er, I daren't give away Rosemary and John, 'cos they're the only two that can understand what the hell I'm talking about.
before.
The other four will agree with this one, very rapidly, but how do you two feel about that.
Yes.
It's a bit 
Yes, feel comfortable with that?
Erm, I thought Damien and Phil might be able to work together.
Yes.
No, no way.
No way.
Down the pub.
rock-facing.
Er, er, Annette and Clare.
I mean, I did try and and make a male and female split all the way round, on the basis that all team male and all female team done it earlier.
But er, I have a feeling that you two might be able to work better .
Is that Okay.
Yes.
Yes.
Work in those pairs.
Look at what you've written down.
Think.
Is that a positive sample I've got.
How can I increase this positiveness  if it's a negative sample.
What can I do to turn it round to a positive.
What action point do I need to change, if I change it.
Yes.
I got twenty past, er, I reckon this should take about ten minutes to a quarter of an hour, okay.
Talk through each one, and try and get that sample  good luck.
Yes.
You can tell us where we are, paid off in the year  conservatory.
No.
pay for the conservatory, today.

So what we do  is  is what this  er solicitor would have done in relation to it.
Yes.
And it it really is covered by the passages in  erm   erm, just, I just reiterate that that that expressly referring your Lordship to it,professional duty except in so far as it may be necessary to elucidate the rules   that that was at page eight hundred and forty one at the bottom  and it goes over the page to eight four two  and then proceeds to  general proposition to those two  experts ordinary witness may not  may not give their opinions towards matters legal or moral obligation.
My Lord  to say that that evidence will not assist you  and shouldn't be received.
.
My Lord if I could question it.
It is not, er this evidence does not go to a matter of law er er and the duty but it  matter of practice and my Lord what this case is dealing with is about what if, what is or should be the practice of a solicitors engaged in commercial conveyancing as to the advice that is given to clients  and er my Lord the er  commercial conveyancing is obviously a matter which particularly concerns  .
Can I, can I take it this way.
Analysing your  opening to me  you were saying that there's expert evidence  that  solicitors instructed in the purchase of a property must  ask about financial arrangements and advise about them.
Secondly it is the solicitors  must advise about clause twenty two  and thirdly  well that's about it really, isn't it .
Well my Lord and yet 
Because the other's factual.
Yes but my Lord d dealing also with the suggestion by the defendants that it would have been improper to advise him to serve completion notice when he wasn't in a position to complete and the solicitor deals with the the expert deals also with that position as to what is the practice of a solicitor in that situation if there's a potential er problem for that particular solicitor to what the advice should be as to how the client should deal with the that.
Well that depends on the  terminology of the  of the rule doesn't it.
Does that require expert advice?
Well I think that the way the case is put is that  .
Let's just have a look at them have you got the general conditions here?
Yes there is, there is a bundle  er a and what it deals with is the availability to a purchaser of the service of the special notice to complete er if the vendors are not completing and then if don't comply with it within a certain time limit, the contract is rescinded.
Now of course that, it is the defendant's case I anticipate, erm  is er, although there's nothing specific in the rule about it, is said to be er only a possibility for a plaintiff if the plaintiff when they sell, he or she served the notice to complete is in a position to be able to complete himself  and here  .
Well he's got to be in a position to complete by the time the notice runs out .
Well  I I think its, the way that the plaintiff puts the case on that point my Lord is that even if the defendant Mr  took the view er that it would not have been proper for such a notice to be served, in view of what the plaintiff was saying to him about his wish to get out of the contract, the fact that it was available to him should have been brought to his attention and then as Mr  was saying that I  sorry I don't feel I can do this on your behalf because it's not proper in the circumstances or whatever  erm, should then have gone on to advise the plaintiff either to do it himself or to go and seek independent advice.
But should, to say nothing at all, the matter not being drawn to the attention at all was, was not right.
So the those are the issues, the factual issues of the matters at issue.
But my Lord what  erm I  
Er, a notice to complete is a, is a notice to complete and not a notice to withdraw.
Certainly, certainly I I accept that.
But I I don't erm  from the nature of Mr Justice  in the Midland Bank that there's a a  well known  but w what I say  is that in this case er what your Lordship will be dealing with are essentially what are matters of practice for conveyancing solicitors when faced particularly with clients er making financial arrangements to enter into this  and the duties of  in that particular situation .
Does it really help to call them, label them that of practice er  Mrs  because  the end of the day they're not matters of practice, they're matters of law.
Either they're under duty  or they're not.
Well if that were so my Lord then there would never be any  any solicitor's negligence claims, in which any expert was ever called to give evidence  because it's always going to be eventually a matter of law as to what the defendant's duty is but what the er  what the plaintiff had not said at any stage is that a matter of law is ever going to be admissible and in fact the  is Justice  our  in the course of er er a case in which he, despite expressing reservations about the admissibility of the evidence, plainly admitted it because he was  within the course of his judgement.
Er, he may be concerned  but my Lord erm, there has been reference to the er the professional negligence   and  and my Lord there is a bit I have in court, I'm afraid the second edition because the third edition which is the latest, was not available to me this morning, but there's a paragraph in it and I want to refer your Lordship to it, I wonder if I might read it and er hand it up to your Lordship.
What I'm just checking to see is erm,it appears in, does your Lordship have the ?
Is this actually a book that er  is going to be of any assistance to me?
I think 
Well my Lord it might 
those authors are still alive aren't they  hopefully.
My Lord in my submission it will be yes, because of there's some er reference.
Well why don't you just adopt their verbiage as part of er  won't have to pay any copyright fees for doing that.
Can I just ask you to look at page three hundred and forty of  and .
Yes  have you got it?
I don't think we've got it.
Er I thought your Lordship had it, I'm sorry  I thought I'd  your Lordship .
No I haven't got it.
Oh I'm sorry  my Lord perhaps I could read the passage out and then er  I can hand it up to your Lordship but it  after setting out the dictor from Mr Justice  in the Midland Bank.
Erm the editors say that, and I rely upon this because it's important in my submission, that it is submitted that a wider view might be taken as the function of a solicitor as expert witnesses.
While of course the extent of the solicitor's duty is ultimately a question for the court, surely this is a mixed question of fact and law.
Even if there is no directly relevant practice of the profession, the evidence of other practitioners as to what they do in similar cases and why, is likely to be of benefit to the court.
A knowledge of the working of a solicitor's office, particularly er o of those departments handling non-contentious business, cannot be automatically imputed to the judge or to council  and he may as well make  it is not uncommon for an expert witness to give evidence of what he would have done in a particular situation after consideration and er I resign on that because in my submission er the issues in this case are clearly issues of mixed fact and law and my Lord it is seen from the report handed up that there is particularly in relation to the erm financial aspect of the  case, reference to a provision within a  professional conduct of solicitors guide as to what the nature of the er duties of the solicitor in the situation is.
Er and I rely 
Well, that's that's not in dispute you can, you can put in that er  that guide.
Yes .
Although in fact you haven't pleaded it  er  .
No my Lord it's not pleaded certainly, but it, but it's part of the expert report .
It should be , it should be if it's part of the basis upon which you are making an allegation that a duty arises.
Well my Lord I don't know 
You are saying that 
whether it could properly be said that it's a duty because it's not, it's a guide, er the question arises as to whether it's a duty but of course it's here, it's always been in the expert's report incorporated in it the reference to it  erm  but er  Lord in my submission  er it is undoubtedly correct that your Lordship would be greatly helped by hearing evidence from a solicitor engaged regularly, frequently, in commercial conveyancing work as to what the extent of the practice, the accepted practice and the professional  standards operated by solicitors in this field and 
see what his qualifications are shall we?
He's an expert and to to tell us what the practice is.
Yes my Lord er  you can see that er on page one  in paragraph one two, he is a partner in a firm of  he qualified as a solicitor in nineteen seventy three and became a partner in nineteen seventy six and since qualifying, so that er some twenty five years ago, he has dealt primarily with commercial and residential conveyancing  and his  contained in paragraph one and three  er he's been asked to advise on the extent of the duty of professional care and skill in relation to Mr  financing the transaction  and the extent to which they were under an obligation to advise Mr  of any opportunity to rescind.
Well that doesn't show any er expertise in what goes on in a solicitor's office  at all.
Well my Lord.
We may know what  practices and particularly his own  what what he can he tell me about what er  the practice of solicitors up and down the country?
Well, he's b the second part, he's basing his opinion on clearly what the plaintiff's case is about what he was, what he was telling Mr  to do.
I accept that erm and of course he's dealing with it, approaching it from the basis that that factual issue is one she's resolved in favour of the plaintiff  erm it may be that there's very little issue between us, it may be  that the defendant would concede  if your Lordship were to find  that er the plaintiff had been asking Mr  on several occasions to get him out of the contract, it may be conceded, I know not.
The that condition should or would have been drawn to his attention, that is the major factor in this dispute which goes .
But the expert is dealing also with the financial aspect of the claim..
But er  isn't the situation here that er vi advisor to very eminent solicitors and so are  the defendants in this case
Yes  indeed.
W w what w what am I to infer from this expert reports?
That they are solicitors who would have handled the situation differently from er the defendants .
Well my Lord the issue is that the defendants deny they were under any duty to offer any advice  about financial .
Yes  but I can't receive expert evidence on that because that's the very thing I have to decide isn't it?
My Lord it will be helped in that situation in my submission by evidence from  which is dealing with what is the accepted and standard practice in that solicitors in handling these forms of transactions  and what advice is given  my Lord undoubtedly that must be of benefit to the courts.
I know not, it may be that Mr  is saying this is something that that never  it's never  I've never understood it to be er part of my practice or part of any solicitors practice to offer such a  and if we have a solicitor er who has constantly practised in his skills for a very lengthy period of time, that is saying oh yes it is because this, as far as I'm concerned,standard advice which solicitors should give to clients  transactions.
Your Lordship must be helped in that considerably, by that evidence.
To resolve that conflict between them.
I can't fault a solicitor er to say that that there's no practice unless I call an expert to give that opinion.
Mr  who's the defendant of course,.
You haven't pleaded any practice  Mrs , you haven't pleaded any practice.
Well, my Lord the case is about the practice of solicitors and I've pleaded upon the practice, that's part of the statement .
It's not about the practice of solicitors, it's pleaded that there's breach of contract.
My Lord it's pleaded that there's common practice in the statement of claim.
Well you haven't pleaded a term of the contract that there's a practice  to which all solicitors are subject that they have got to do this that and the other.
My Lord with the greatest respect that that clears my submission from the pleadings, er in the statement of claim.
In paragraph four   specifically paragraph four  page seven.
That  the negligence or rather the breach of the implied term, was failing to ensure as is the common practice amongst solicitors that the proposed source of finance had in fact agreed both finance for the transaction and the term thereon.
That is clearly pleaded my Lord now unless I can call Mr  to say  er yes it is  er I cannot deal with  .
Does common practice means  does common practices means it's a practice which is common or
Well, yes.
Not common to all of them but 
Yes 
common amongst them.
Yes  the that is the a practice.
Now I  unless I can call Mr  to give evidence that it is, I cannot deal with Mr  er contention which may be, anticipated in the witness box,.
Because er unless I can call  er a conveyancing solicitor to say yes it is common practice  er the plaintiff is proceeding very much at a disadvantage .
I I it's clearly the defendants case that it's not malpractice and as Mr  is undoubtedly going to say  .
There's plenty there's plenty of legal authority of course on this very question isn't there?
Well my Lord no there isn't, that that is in my submission, there isn't.
Oh isn't there 
In my submission there isn't  .
Well you surprise me.
I seem to remember several cases in which the court considered to what extent the solicitor involves himself  in the financial arrangements for a conveyancing transaction.
Well  my Lord not er so far as I'm aware.
We are dealing specifically with a lack of  information for commercial conveyancing  and the extent that the conveyancing solicitor duties in that situation.
That is the, that is the key to it in my submission.
Because that is what is at issue between the parties.
The er  the defence case is that er  there was no duty a and in my submission it must be of assistance to your Lordship to determine that issue  to hear evidence from both sides upon whether there is such a practice and if there is what the extent of it is.
A a and that is my submission, it is not a matter of law but a matter of  fact a and practice.
Thank you Mrs .
At this stage I take the view it is very unlikely that there's anything in this expert evidence that will be of the slightest assistance to me and I'm not going rule it out.
Question of omitting it doesn't arise unless until  we get to that part of the  plaintiff's case  and erm I shall hear the evidence of the plaintiff and the other witnesses first  and the advocation can be renewed in due ti in due course   at the proper time.
I'm not encouraging it because as I say  I really, present time  I can't see that it's going to be of any assistance to me to have  the opinion of  solicitors from er from any part really, from the defendant or or someone else.
On these matters.
My Lord er  those er in essentially are the matters to which erm I wanted to draw your Lordship's attention in .
Er, my Lord may I say that er in relation to the witness statement  erm, clearly the credibility of this, the plaintiff Mr  is going to be substantially in issue er and therefore er I propose er not to simply to tell him  er and say erm in your witness statement your evidence  erm but clearly to take him to those areas which are in dispute and to ask him to deal fully with them in  I appreciate it's going to erm  take some time to do that but it is important in my submission that your Lordship has the ability to er assess  the plaintiffs .
Yes.
Erm  and my Lord I hope that 
Do you in fact wish me to read the evidence in this case?you have decided that have you?
Well my Lord as I said  as I said at the beginning I think the both Mr  and myself considered that it might  er assist your Lordship considerably if you have some time now to read  er the witness statements and the  reports from the expert  which are in bundle three and indeed erm.
The experts  er they deal with the the damages
Yes
don't they?
Yes and  I I I think y my Lord the plaintiffs will be cross examined quite considerably on the damages claimed and I think it might help your Lordship to see  erm the way .
The case in which the the evidence on damages is going to  possibly erm enable me to form a better view of the credibility of the witnesses.
Well my Lord I think  
Or or why or do we need to try this, go into this business of a fairly complicated damages assessment as part of the liability claim.
Sorry my Lord.
Well  my Lord I must say it had occurred to me erm that  certainly on the basis on which I'm contending for damages to be assessed with the plaintiffs   and it is completely irrelevant, er er many of the matters to which the defendant's expert goes to as to the damages and the extent to which they were caused by the negligence of the defendant, the breach of duty.
Erm, but my Lord er I think the difficulty is that as far as my learned friend is concerned er he takes the view and it's probably better for him to develop this your Lordship, that the matters cannot properly be separated and he wishes your Lordship to deal with them in total so that er the whole picture can be seen at liability stage.
Yes.
To enable him to cross examine the plaintiffs as er he sees appropriate.
Yes alright.
Er my Lord it's been.
I'm I'm a bit reluctant to embark on a, on reading  reports of this nature  which are liable to mean very little to me till I devote, until I've obtained the view from the
Yes.
from the  general history of what the case is about.
Yes  my Lord  I I I'm not going to invite your Lordship t to take a great deal of time reading  reports that state in detail erm but I think the witness statements and I think probably the documentation that might help your Lordship at this stage er to see something of the  and to ensure that where evidence is given it can proceed fairly  fairly quickly.
Mr  is er  twenty five pages.
Mr  is er  eighty pages.
My Lord I'm more than happy to for your Lordship not to  not look at the details of the accountant's evidence at this stage a and concentrate on the witness statements and the documentation which which deals with liability matters.
So it's bundle.
It's part A trial bundle 
Trial bundle 
Two  one of two of the pleadings.
Part A one and two  
And then er  part B  bundles one, two and three er  my Lord you want to look at the documentation which is dealing specifically with the purchase of the wine bar.
It starts at page  one seven eight  pages one seven eight to forty effectively deal with the  the crucial aspects of .
Er I'm sorry I hadn't quite understand, understood how you, trial bundle A one is the pleadings bundle.
Yes my Lord the witness statements .
Yes I  well I did have one of those.
Yes.
But I give it back to er  cos I have two pleadings bundles.
Ah yes, one was paginate I think and one wasn't my Lord.
And the pleadings bundle which I've got also seems to be  erm from your side but it's er seems to be the trial bundle that was lodged with the court rather than the one that you've  a different order and different pagination.
yes  does your Lordship have trial bundle two part A, the witness statements.
Pardon.
Does your Lordship have part A trial bundle two?
Yes I do.
Yes  the witness  
I have one and two now and I give this back to the associate, he can keep that  and you can keep this one.
And er  my Lord 
You can have that one back.
The  the documents that my learned friend and I think would be most useful to your Lordship to read at this stage would be pages one seven eight four two five.
Where do I find those?
My Lord trial bundle part B er and then  er bundles one and two.
You're not asking me to read the part er  B  at all at this stage .
my Lord .
My learned friend and I thought that if your Lordship wanted to look at the documentation so that your Lordship is familiar with some of the documentation which is going to be referred to in the evidence, er simply to enable your Lordship to be  er a little more familiar with the nature of content of some of the documentation then the crucial documents are those of pages one seven eight to four two five, bundle B. 
What  oh D 
Bundle B.
Yeah.
Which is in part one and two, files one and two.
Yeah.
Er er that together with the witness statements my Lord I think  .
Well that is, that's getting on for two hundred and fifty pages of document.
My Lord yes of course.
But I think it's time, I think we both agree that the time er  well used because it's for the  because your Lordship will have a better understanding of the evidence when the plaintiff and the defendant give it from the witness box.
Yes well  it strikes me that this case involves some very narrow issues really  it's generated an awful lot of paper.
It has my Lord.
Well now how long is this going to take me?
Well  erm  my Lord I don't know whether you'd like to take  certainly  the rest of the afternoon  and sit again tomorrow at ten thirty to get a clean start, having read all the documentation or whether you feel that you could read it before then.
I think that there's a lot for your Lordship to read  but I think it might be beneficial in the long run, it was certainly, our experience has been that it certainly would take time  in the long run but to deal with it this way.
Yes, well er what do you say Mr .
Well my Lord as a time saver it would  quite er how my er learned friend went through the documents,i it in the contents  she would otherwise make and one suspects that it would take a great deal longer.
My Lord it may help to say that if your Lordship does this reading  my Lord, I don't  intend  to take your Lordship through the documents any more myself in opening, because I think once your Lordship has has seen the extent of it, I'm going to call  Mr  to give evidence and go to through the documentation that way, once.
Er, and I don't intend to take up any more of the court's time simply opening myself documentation and making points upon it.
obviously preferable to get evidence given about the documentation which is why I advise, consider it necessary for your Lordship to familiarise yourself with it now.
Well if I'm going to read this  er at all properly it's going to take me all afternoon isn't it?
That's that's what the parties want.
My Lord I think it's right that that it's clear from the discussions I've had with Mr  that the plaintiff is going to be in the witness box for some considerable time and I think if your Lordship's had an opportunity to read the witness statement, seen the areas of dispute, the nature of the the fact that arised and had a look at some of the documentation, it would be much er er a much speedier process than it would otherwise be.
very well then I I'll adjourn into chambers and I don't require the attendance of the parties or council until tomorrow morning.
Members of the jury  and you'll be pleased to hear that I'll be doing that quite quickly.
Can I start however by telling you what this case is not about.
It's not about police corruption.
It's not about racism in the police force, it's not about dishonesty amongst police officers.
It's not about violence or brutal police officers  and I say that because for the last few years there's been an awful lot of publicity  about the  particularly in the Metropolitan area  and I ask you  you will have read some terrible things about certain police officers.
Put those out of your mind.
Indeed yesterday you may well seen on on the news, heard on the radios, seen in the papers, forget such attacks.
It's also not about macho, gun , gung ho policeman as has been suggested .
What it is about, members of the jury, is a very professional police force doing the best they could in the circumstances.
And what do they try to do, they were trying, above all else, to protect you and I, the general public.
And this is a police force, you will remember, Mr  telling you   very remarkable characteristic.
Never in it's entire history has it shot a gun in anger at a human being.
And what does that tell you, members of the jury, about this police force?
What does it tell you about their professionalism?
Now in this case the police have the burning proof  we have to satisfy you of in particular three things.
Firstly as you have probably already gathered, we have to satisfy you that there were reasonable grounds to believe that Lawrence  was in the flat, the plaintiff's flat.
Secondly we have to satisfy you that in order to  that flat they used only reasonable and necessary force.
And thirdly we have to satisfy you that in the circumstances of the operation the police were justified in restraining Mr  with handcuffs for the short period of time that he was restrained and in addition Mrs  who you will remember was restrained  in her lounge, she was told she couldn't leave the lounge, again for a few minutes.
And members of the jury we don't  that we have to prove that to you.
And in a nut shell, it is our case, we say the police, what the police did was reasonable in the circumstances and indeed to go any further and say what they did was necessary in the circumstances.
There was no realistic alternative.
Of course in he  many years later to debate whether other alternatives could have been adopted.
What other courses of action could have been pursued.
We say to you, taking all the facts into consideration  the officers did in due course, there was no other .
There may be few actual options that lawyers can ponder over .
But there was no other realistic option.
And why do we say that?
Why do we say there were reasonable grounds?
Well members of the jury  it is  because we've set the course that  acting upon  in itself would not have been enough.
That's  and he couldn't  and then mount this sort of operation.
Having seen just one or two pieces  of the jigsaw, but the police didn't act on one or two pieces  they put the rest of the jigsaw together and what did they have.
Well they had the information that you will hear in due course, in just a few moments, from the caller.
The person who phoned up appeared to be perfectly genuine.
There was nothing about the man's voice, nothing about what he said that cast any doubt on his motives.
And he told them  that   was in the flat that you know about and that there was suspicion that other occupants of the flat were in danger.
Now what do the police know at the time.
When they heard that information they knew that Lawrence  was indeed on the run from prison, that he'd escaped.
They also knew that he was a violent man, a man prepared not only to handle shotguns, but to saw off the barrel and to shoot sawn off shotgun at human beings.
They knew all that.
But they knew a little bit more than  to put the  together.
They also knew that Lawrence  was a  and knew  and there's one final piece of information members of the jury, that which the police knew.
The knew Mr  himself was no angel.
That he had the long record of offenses, mainly dishonesty and some for violence against the police.
And they put all those factors together and they weighed up the alternatives and you've heard some of them already.
The , they weighed that up.
The idea was of staking out the estate and counting on someone at the appropriate moment.
They weighed up the prospect of knocking on the door  and members of the jury, you have to consider in due course whether they got that  act right.
And you will do so by listening to all the other officers who will give evidence in the case.
The this is what the police say.
They had to risks didn't they.
One risk was  that if they didn't act there was a gunman on the loose, desperate, he's after all escaped from prison, possibly in a confined space in a block of flats with a vantage point.
That was one risk.
They risk leaving him there and him going on to do damage to personal property.
A very serious risk.
On the other hand there was the risk which in fact  materialised which is that in mounting such an operation they would  frighten innocent members of the public  it was open to the jury, we don't swing from the fact that  Mrs  and her children  were clearly frightened, no doubt about that, it must have been a terrifying experience.
But those are the two risks the police had to weigh up  and what they will tell you is that one risk, a gunman on the loose, is a potential to main and kill, one is far, far more serious than the risk of causing some temporary  fear and fright of little children.
And the  that  Mr  and other officers  never like to mount an armed operation, never.
If they can avoid it, they never would.
But it was the only option available to them.
And you'll hear two sorts of evidence in this case.
You'll hear evidence from those officers that took the decision to get into the flat.
That's the first  and they'll be the ones that will be able to tell you why they've taken that decision and why we say it's a reasonable decision.
Then you'll hear from the second  of officers  namely the officers that went into the flat that were carrying the guns, carrying  and who conducted the operation and from their evidence you'll be able to judge whether or not the force used was reasonable and was necessary.
Members of the jury whilst you're listening to these officers  ask yourself a number of questions as they're going along.
Do they all look to you as professional  men and women?
Are they considered in their judgement?
Are they temperate?
Do they keep their cool?
Are they ?
Firm, perhaps.
Decisive, do they show any compassion?
And weigh those matters up in your mind as you hear one evidence after the other.
And ask yourself a question, are they really a sort of dirty Harry or sweeney sort of officers you would be lead to believe.
in front of your mind because the picture's intended by the plaintiff's is that these are  reckless, violent, thuggish officers, stealing into a place with no regard for anyone else.
We say nothing could be further from the truth and indeed to get any  if you read just one newspaper this morning  we will say from that which you will actually see in the witness box.
Because after you listen to the evidence will be that these are professional officers doing a very difficult job and members of the public, members of the jury create very dated job  they have the one objective I've told you about  to protect members of the public from further harm from what they thought was an armed criminal on the run.
Finally members of the jury by way of opening tonight, ask you to be warned about two things.
Firstly  it is inevitable and natural and quite proper that you should have a sympathy, in particular for Mrs  and her children and .
None of us  it is a matter of extreme regret that they were terrified in the way they claim they were, but that sympathy must not be allowed to cloud your judgement on the issue about whether the police were reasonable.
Secondly members of the jury, please don't do what the press are always doing which is act on the basis of hyper.
If the police had a crystal ball  and a gypsy woman they could bring in and ask her to look and see what was in the flat, we wouldn't be here today would we?
But they don't have a crystal ball, all they have is their judgement and they do what's best in the circumstances.
The questions  maybe that if  they did what was reasonable, did they carry it out in a reasonable way.
Members of the jury that's all I wish to say to you  by way of opening the case.
And I'll now call a number of the officers to explain their case of their own.
Thank you.
My Lord  call Elaine .
Take the book in your hand and repeat after the .
I swear by almighty God.
I swear by almighty God.
That the evidence I shall give.
That the evidence I shall give.
Shall be the truth.
Shall be the truth.
The whole truth.
The whole truth.
And nothing but the truth.
And nothing but the truth.
Thank you.
Miss  could you just confirm your full name and your address?
Elaine , do I have to give my home address?
Give your work address.
Work address 
And Miss  it's an extremely big court with a very very high ceiling, it's very difficult for all us to be heard.
Can you do your best to  direct your answers to the other end of the court.
Yes.
I told the witnesses yesterday, you may sit down or stand just as you wish.
Thank you.
Miss  what was your job in December of nineteen eighty eight?
I was  a civilian controller operator.
And where were you working at the time?
At .
And can you tell the jury, as briefly as possible, what that job entailed?
Basically it was receiving telephone calls from the public erm and using that information to put on a computer to send officers to incidents  various incidents.
Erm I I missed at the beginning perhaps, that's your present job still is it?
No that's not my present job, I've changed jobs since then.
What do you do now.
I'm a  crime officer at .
Miss  do you remember taking a telephone call from somebody about a Mr Lawrence .
Yes.
Can you remember roughly what time of day that was?
It was approximately  five fifteen, five twenty P M.
And was the caller male or female?
Male.
And from the caller's voice were you able to come to the view as to his age?
It was five years ago but  I believe his was  he sounded fairly young I'd say about in his twenties.
Did, did he have any  obvious accent?
Not that I can recall.
Miss  what did the man tell you?
Erm, I can't remember the exact conversation but the basics of it were that we were looking for somebody called Lawrence   and he was at the present time at  erm  and that he was in possession of a gun and that the caller was concerned for the safety of the occupants of those premises.
Miss  did you ask the caller  for his name?
I did yes.
A and what did he  tell you?
He wouldn't give me his name because he was concerned that something would happen to him if he gave me his details.
Miss  were you able to  come to any view as to whether the call was genuine, from what you heard?
As far as I was concerned the call did sound genuine  yes.
Er Miss  what did you do next?
I reported it to my section inspector Mr .
So he .
Miss  or is it simply that er when the male rang up to say about Lawrence  at  has a gun and that he is the caller who is concerned for the safety of the occupiers.
Did you say anything to the effect that  Lawrence  was being harboured at the flat at  or did he merely say he was concerned for the safety of the occupier?
From what I can recall he just said he was concerned for the safety of the occupiers.
my Lord does your Lordship have any questions?
No thank you very much, Miss  you are free to leave is you wish to
Thank you very much.
Or stay and listen to the rest if you want.
My Lord  next.
Raise the book in your right hand .
I swear by Almighty God.
I swear by Almighty God.
That the evidence I shall give.
That the evidence I shall give.
Shall be the truth.
Shall be the truth.
The whole truth.
The whole truth.
And nothing but the truth.
And nothing but the truth.
Inspector   can you give the court your name and address?
I'm Inspector Clive Richard   of   I'm currently on the road traffic division in Bedfordshire.
At the time of this incident  I was patrol inspector at .
Again Inspector, just to help the jury and myself indeed, what does being a control inspector mean?
I was in charge of a shift of, at that time, approximately twenty constables er four or five sergeants who do normal patrol work in uniform at .
Were you involved inspector, in the events leading up to the search of ?
Only in that I received the message from Mrs   of a telephone call.
Perhaps it's quicker if I ask you, you just heard about it.
Yes.
Can you confirm that   what she told you?
The information Mrs  gave to me was as she stated that erm an anonymous phone call had been made to the police station, which she had received.
The information was that there was a Lawrence  at that address in Luton, that he had a hand gun and that they were, the caller was concerned for the safety of the occupants of that flat.
I you may  memory, you added he had a hand gun  that's what she told you?
Yes, that's .
She told us just now merely that he said he had a gun  but you you remember that it is a hand gun.
Hand gun yes sir.
Yes.
Inspector  did you at the time, know of Lawrence ?
Only by reputation.
I was aware that he  was an escaped prisoner.
I didn't know him personally and I I wouldn't recognise him.
And on  receiving that information, Inspector  what did you do?
My task was to assess the validity of the information  taken over the phone  and the only way I could do that  was to contact someone who knew the Lawrence  situation.
I telephoned the C I D department at  in an effort to trace the officer  who was dealing with that case.
Did you trace that officer?
I didn't sir  no erm, Detective Sergeant  was the officer dealing with this erm Lawrence .
He was not available .
Did you speak to anyone else about the situation?
On telephoning  the criminal investigation department at  I spoke to Sergeant   it was he that in fact suggest I called erm Sergeant .
Then in the long run I did in fact to Superintendent  about the information we had gleaned from this telephone call.
Now about what time did you speak to Superintendent ?
I don't remember exactly Sir, but certainly  between the call at five twenty P M and  what, say by six o'clock that evening.
By the time you spoke to Superintendent  had you  learned anything about the address that had been given to you?
It was ascertained that that address erm, was occupied by the  family  again I don't know the .
Did you know anything about  Mr  at that time?
I didn't sir, no.
What information were you able  to pass on to Superintendent ?
When I found out the identity of the person owning or occupying the flat at   I made enquiries at the police station's  department  in that office erm they  they keep records of any , any information about  persons in the  area and beyond.
Information kept for  police eyes only.
A as a result of  looking at that information, the collators department.
Did you learn anything?
Yes I learned that  was in fact known to  Mr .
So did you pass this information.
Well, did you  did they tell you a little more than that  I mean did they tell you that er  Mr  played cricket with him or something like that  or or what?
He's known to him.
A known associate sir.
aware that  had a criminal record himself  as the  department said.
Yes they did tell me that your Lordship.
I mean what we've heard  that in fact erm  they had met in prison, but was that known to you at that time or simply that they were known to each other and that  had a record?
The actual information  you quote my Lord wasn't known to me erm it was on the cards certainly and all this information was passed to Superintendent .
I made copies of the information  and these this was given to Superintendent .
I see well  it's perhaps ultimately the important thing but erm.
What I was trying to say my Lord was that I didn't know  was associated  or  was associated at that time.
I I I I'm  until you spoke to the collators department, they told you simply that they knew each other.
That's correct my Lord.
And that  had a record.
That's correct my Lord, yes.
I see  and you arranged for  more information to be passed on to Superintendent  is that it?
That's correct my Lord, yes.
Right 
No sir, my job was then to pass over to Mr  who made the  ultimate decision as to what to do about the incident.
It clearly wasn't something that the patrol section could do at that time.
Thank you very much .
Because we talking about the collators department, are those the one's  intelligent?
Yes sir.
Did you actually see  either er  car or  card?or was it all done over the telephone with somebody else looking at the card?
I actually  went to the office and er retrieved the card sir.
And would you say from  one of those cards, you found out that  was er  an associate of  or the other way round?
No sir.
I I can't be sure where I got the information from but from that time until the end of my shift at ten P M I was gleaning information from all different directions  about the  and the  connection.
But we have the original cards here as my learned friend will correct me if I'm  I'm wrong.
Neither card in fact, although they do give mention of the  associates for both men, neither card says that  associate of the other.
So it obviously didn't come from the cards.
No sir, it, I couldn't remember but erm I'm not surprised er  between  I was able to ascertain that the two were known to each other.
Well you see it may be important where the information came from, you didn't get it from the cards, you say you were getting information from  all directions.
I know it was long time ago, but  can you now possibly recall where the information came from?
I can't to be honest, no.
I can remember ge obtaining the collator's cards  erm and doing other enquiries but as to where that actual  information came from I cannot be sure at this time.
What erm  what sort of other enquiries, the asking other police officers and that sort of thing?
That would be part of it sir, certainly yes.
Would it have any other  major part or is that the major part?
Sorry I don't understand.
Would the other, these other enquiries you made, would the major part of them be asking other police officers or  is there any other way of getting information?
To myself it's a matter of  well my first reaction was to ask the C I D  if they knew the situation between o of , that was my first response actually to when the phone call came in, but I knew very little about .
It was then we found out who oc , who was the occupant of that flat then we started to look at the connection between  and .
And that's the only other question I have.
How physically do you find out who's the occupant of a flat?
You've got an address, if you give that to the collators departments they can  give you a name for the occupier can they?
The obvious way is through the voters register, erm as to whether  as I say I don't know, can't remember exactly where we got the details of the occupant from but t in the course of that evening the details of the occupants were found.
Well  yes it may be important and if if you can't  to say but  did you yourself  in any event look at the voters register, the electoral role?
I didn't sir no.
So again, the information as to who was the occupier was obtained by somebody else and given to you verbally.
I believe so sir, yes, erm I can't be specific at this time.
Thank you sir.
I  my examination my Lord, does your Lordship have any questions?
No thank you.
Yes all the witnesses can leave when they've given their evidence if they wish to.
My Lord I call  Detective Constable .
How do you spell the name?
My Lord you spell it   .
Good.
.
Take the book in your hand and repeat after the .
I swear by Almighty God.
I swear by Almighty God.
That the evidence I shall give.
That the evidence I shall give.
Shall be the truth.
Shall be the truth.
The whole truth.
The whole truth.
And nothing but the truth.
And nothing but the truth.
Would  give your full name and address.
Er, Michael David   er currently stationed at .
And er what's your current rank?
Detective Constable.
And in nineteen eighty eight where were you based?
A at .
And were you a detective constable then?
Yes I was.
And what was your job at the time?
Er I was a field intelligence officer.
Detective could you just say to the jury what a field intelligence officer is?
Er my job was to er  obtain intelligence on  er active, known criminals and also to develop intelligence that had been obtained by other officers.
Now before we come to the matter that  the jury in this case, could you tell me  had you ever been to the  estate?
Yes.
Prior to this?
Erm yes.
A and  h had you ever been there to conduct any surveillance operations?
Er yes on a couple of occasions.
Tell the jury  what it was like conducting a surveillance operation on that estate.
Er, very, very difficult er  on each occasion after about an hour er we were approached by people, knocking on the windows of our cars, asking us what we were doing.
And you were in plain clothes were you  
Yes I was 
And in a plain clothes car
Yes I was.
A plain car.
Yes.
Was your intention to be  not seen .
Er  yes.
So it didn't work.
Er, no obviously.
Now when  Mr  did your  did you have an involvement in the decision to mount the operation at  in September of nineteen eighty eight.
Er, not in the decision, I I spoke to Mr  and he asked me certain questions.
Yes  well  at that time, what did you know about Lawrence ?
Er  I'd known Lawrence  since, it was either, nineteen eighty five or nineteen eighty six.
Erm  I knew that er  he had escaped from prison.
I knew he had previous convictions.
Er, I knew that er he had access to firearms.
I knew that  er the circumstances of him being in prison involved er a firearm and using that firearm.
Where he actually shot somebody with a sawn off shotgun.
I had been told that er  he'd made threats against his wife  and er his wife was living with somebody else at that time and he'd made threats against him.
Er, I'd been told er that he'd been in prison with Mr   er I believe it was in nineteen eighty six  and I'd also been told that in the past  er  and  er had planned armed robberies together.
Did you convey any or all of that information to Superintendent ?
I told him everything I knew.
Did you obtain any of that information  from the collators card  or did you know it yourself?
No I knew it, I I phoned Mr  er from my home address and er I I knew the information.
A and just in case it  er should become an issue  can you now produce the originals of both collators cards?
Yes I can 
.
Yes.
A and did those cards have photographs  of the person they concern?
Yes they do.
And just tell us the names of the two cards you've got there.
Er  it's the cards regarding David   and er the other cards involving Lawrence .
And my Lord  this stage  against those cards.
Now let me just have a look at them  thank you.
My Lord I can tell you  that I do have a copy for the jury if your Lordship thinks .
Well we'll see if there, if there  well the jury can have a look at them if they want, certainly   if er if neither side think they're going to be of any assistance then there's not much point in producing them.
It doesn't actually say I I I was just looking, it doesn't s seems to go up to September nineteen eighty six  but not to say that he  had escaped from prison.
My Lord it may be  that the, it certainly should say that Lawrence  escaped, I  in my photocopy  caused the escape and who he escaped with.
Maybe I  ah it opens up and goes further on.
Simple answer to that.
If it's all er  arrested for shooting of Anthony   sent to prison for five years plus six months for possessing a firearm with intent to endanger life.
July nineteen eighty eight escape from prison at  with one other a Mr   believed to have been a white Mercedes lorry near the prison.
And obviously, for whatever relevance it is, he was later on caught because the next entry after that is in March nineteen ninety one he was released on parole from prison.
So he must have been caught in the meantime and sent back.
My Lord the reason I  to make it clear is not  er unnecessarily  it's just that to enable a  police had tried to not show anything, well we've got the documents here and we're very happy to receive them.
Oh I  I think, I think they're here and Mr  has referred to them, the jury can have a look at them in due course.
My Lord yes.
Er  that  that I really said it it's got a history on to an ending with the bit I've referred to.
And the other one which is er  Mr   and that er has details of various convictions with er  picture of his as a  rather younger man  er, various offences going back to nineteen seventy five  and occupying quite a long space but there .
Well I don't think we need to, the jury need read them now but they're there and available for you to see in due course  yes.
Good.
Well I think it's much better once things are served I think it's better the jury know that they're being shown everything of relevance.
Continuing  told us what he knew about Lawrence .
Could you now tell us what it is that you knew about Mr ?
As I said I I had been told that er he was associated with  and they had been planning  ar armed robberies in the past.
er I knew that he lived at .
I knew he had a wife, I didn't know whether he had children  er and I knew that er he had previous history of er  criminal nature.
Again did you convey that information about Mr  go Superintendent ?
Yes I did.
From your knowledge first of all, that Lawrence  can I ask you to  of how you would regard the prospect of trying to arrest him while he was armed.
Erm, from what I knew of   erm  I knew he'd  got access to firearms.
I knew he'd used firearms in the past and because he was on the run from prison  he obviously didn't want to be rearrested.
Yes Mr  if you wait there there'll be some more questions.
Yes, you got the cards, you can therefore confirm can't you that neither man  an associate of the other on the cards.
Er yes that's correct.
It may therefore become of some importance, who it was told you that they'd been in prison together and so were at least known to each other.
Can you remember that?
Erm, before the event I was told by more than one  person.
Well can you remember who they were?
No no.
Can you even remember whether this had been volunteered to you, weeks or months before or is this something you found out by asking around that day?
Er it was volunteered to me before that day.
Mr  may I ask  you also had been told by somebody that they been planning armed robberies together.
I don't suppose you can remember who told you that?
No  no I can't.
You can confirm this that  there have been any convictions for er er er two men conspiring to commit armed robbery or anything of that sort have there?
No no no previous convictions.
Mr  got erm   I understand that no convictions, even for armed robbery itself.
No.
I don't think Lawrence  got any convictions for armed robbery has he, or that there are any subsequently?
Er, no he's got no previous convictions for armed robbery.
He's been suspected of committing armed robbery but no convictions.
On the er second of December, did you speak to er  Mr  the officer who just gave evidence?
No I didn't.
So it couldn't have been you that told him  that er  and  were associates .
No.
I spoke to Mr .
Do you know the circumstances in which er Lawrence  was recaptured?
Er  no I I just know that he was er recaptured  in nineteen eighty nine I believe.
For instance er could you tell the jury whether there was er any violence or any firearms involved in that recapture?
No  I I cannot recall.
I don't think it was in Bedfordshire.
I think it was somewhere else.
But you are in  you can't recall.
No  I did visit Lawrence  in prison after he was recaptured  er and spoke to him about various things, including this er  this incident and he did confirm that he had been at  flat er for a couple of days  er befo before the actual search.
answers my question  but it's of some considerable relevance isn't it.
Did he tell you that he'd been at  flat  I mean years before or near the date of this or what?
No it was during the conversation he er  he said that I hear that you went to  flat  and I said yes and he said er  well you just missed me, I'd been there a couple of days before.
Well your Honour there are a number of matters arising out of my Lord, there are a number of mat matters arising out of that.
Yes.
Firstly it wasn't put  secondly is inadmissible  thirdly it wasn't marked as a  question.
Fourthly I very much expect, although it's not obvious that erm my Lord  how it's going to be said.
Perhaps it's a matter that erm  needs to be discussed at rather more length than that.
Well  here you are.
It's come out, it's part of, part of what we've heard.
My Lord  rules of evidence apply in this court.
It is not admissible as evidence, it's been volunteered to the jury  erm my Lord it needs to be dealt with in more detail than that  .
Alright well  to consider it in due course anyway, for the moment there it is.
I am obliged.
My Lord nobody  any questions.
No as long as you've finished Mr  because I think you erm  introduced the topic of erm  when he was recaptured.
My Lord yes.
My Lord let me speak plainly, I introduced the topic of when he was recaptured, I asked nothing about what was.
No, I I agree with that but I wondered if you had stopped because you introduced the topic and  then when when this involuntary and unexpected answer came up you sat down and I thought you might have pursued your original questions.
My Lord no.
I have an application to make to your Lordship er in due course when your Lordship feels it is appropriate for an application to be made.
Alright  fine.
Good, well thank you Mr .
My Lord call Superintendent .
My Lord on reflection before er this officer gives evidence, er unless your Lordship rules otherwise I'd like to make that application now and er that would allow the er  jury a short period of erm rest until .
Well i is it simply an application that the jury be directed to take no notice of the answer you've just missed me, because it's not admissible evidence.
No it's right, it is not just an application for that effect.
I see  alright well  or I I invite members of the jury, the council wants to to address me on some point of law which needn't concern you, so if you take a short break please.
The council says it will be short, I don't know what it is yet.
Mr  had better remain while this is going on.
Remain in court Mr .
Yes Mr .
My Lord this is course made  I apologise for the  of authority to support it.
Er, in my respectful submission er some  of inadmissible evidence put before a jury are simply too important and too central  for a jury to be directed to disregard and then safely  er to the  which we known that the jury will disregard them.
If for instance this was a criminal trial as to which will rule this to inadmissibility exactly the same.
In my respectful submission there could be A, no question that the jury would be discharged and B, in the submission er some er judicial displeasure of an experienced police officer volunteering what any police officer must know is A inadmissible and B not an answer to the question.
Now my Lord I'm  I make the application with no  with no joy at all but the  for a day  this matter has proceeded on the basis that yes these two men might have known each other, but that's as far as it goes.
Nothing else  .
Well no  erm  didn't he, didn't Mr  say he had  met ?
Oh but my Lord yes, but what I meant was nothing else was put as a far more serious suggestion.
S so then the evidence is that they did know each other, begging what know exactly entails, but that's not in dispute.
No it isn't but what was not put was that  er if the police had got there a couple of days earlier they would have caught  because I was half  .
It wasn't put here, unfortunately of course in this case there have been no witness statements exchanged.
It's another oddity about this case, an irregularity I would say, all these cases always have an exchange of witness statements.
Why  weren't they exchanged in this case?
Well as I understand it the er  these lawyers for the defendants took the view that as all the statements had been prepared for the police complaints authority investigation, public immunity er  yes er public interest immunity attached to them.
I don I should also say that following a very recent decision er in our submission that's probably right, that my Lord  as I say, I say to you with no joy, this really is  desperate and er one cannot have, in our submission,in the minds of the jury by inadmissible evidence, the suggestion that yes we have been harbouring this man two days before.
It .
But it's not part of the  the police case here, that they  knew at the time that they entered the flat.
That  that er  had been in the flat two days before.
This was something which has come out  that an officer was told by  for better, for truth or for untruth a year or so later.
Yes my Lord but postulate this situation.
The jury comes to a conclusion that  er  the police er took whatever degree of reasonableness was breached, that the raid shouldn't have been made on the day it was.
When they come to consider the plaintiff's damages, it must be highly material  that they then may say to themselves, however, this would  family was harbouring this dangerous criminal two days beforehand.
Well, I think it's premature any isn't it Mr .
On the state of the evidence at the moment, it may well be that there will be a request for  to withdraw the case from the jury on the grounds that no reasonable jury properly directed could conceivably find er a anything other than reasonableness in the police  acting upon the information they had  and that's for me to decide.
Well,e e er my Lord  .
An an and to speak quite bluntly on the state of the evidence at the moment it seems that that is a very possible end to this case, in which case, in which case the jury won't even get round to having this matter.
My Lord there will be  as your Lordship will know, my friend and I have been er talking outside about questions.
There are other subsidiaries used that do have to go through the jury, particularly what happens in relation to Mrs  and the children, as my friend opened it to erm  opened it to the er jury.
But, but erm what subsidiary questions?
As regards Mrs er  and the children, whether er it's now been admitted that she was arrested and kept in that living room, whether that arrest er was lawful or not.
As regards res as my friend put it in opening,
The police were justified in restraining Mr  and Mrs   in the way that they were restrained.
Those are matters that are going to have .
But even if.
Your Lordship may well find it was reasonable for  the police to act on this information.
But that still leaves for the jury in submission, A, whether they used reasonable force  yes reasonable to act, but was it reasonable force to act, was it a reasonable method of acting, by which I mean time of er, time of the incident.
Well again that may be that erm the evidence will be such that I  think that I ought to erm give the decision on it.
I don't know yet, let's hear all the evidence.
Well I'm  it'll stop that your Lordship erm from  er er  from so holding.
But I'm not going to discharge a jury in a case where I think it quite possible the jury won't be required to give any, to give any verdict.
Well my Lord so be it.
The application's been made I didn't want to waste time before making the application and it had been 
Very well, thank you Mr .
I must just stretch my legs while the jury are coming back  alright.
Yes Mr  next witness.
Lord I call Superintendent  please.
Take the book in your hand 
I swear by Almighty God.
I swear by Almighty God.
That the evidence I shall give.
That the evidence I shall give.
Shall be the truth.
Shall be the truth.
The whole truth.
The whole truth.
And nothing but the truth.
And nothing but the truth.
.
Yes sir, I'm Michael Charles  er police Superintendent in the  at present stationed at er  at the time of this incident I was the operations Superintendent at .
Erm  Superintendent were you involved in the decision to forcibly enter the flat we know about?
Yes sir I was.
And how did your involvement begin?
On the evening of  Sunday the fourth of November, er I received a telephone call at my home address  from er Inspector .
He told me that the telephonist at the police station had received a telephone call from a man saying that an escaped prisoner, a Lawrence  er was to be found at  er the home of a David   and that the  er Lawrence  was in possession of a hand gun.
Superintendent what was your response or your initial reaction to that information?
I needed more  er information on both of those persons, David  and Lawrence  er and I asked Inspector  er to  make enquiries regarding those persons and to come back to me with that information.
And er did he get back to you?
Yes er he eventually  er I in fact spoke to a Detective Inspector  er at the police station er  he informed me that  er Detective Constable  had a good knowledge of these persons and I therefore instructed that  er D C  make contact with me  which he did  a short time later that evening.
And er perhaps you could briefly confirm what information he gave to you.
He told me that he knew  both individuals  er that Lawrence  er was an escaped prisoner.
Er that he  had received a prison sentence er for in fact being in possession of a firearm with intent to endanger life.
He reminded me of the circumstances of the incident resulting in that conviction  which er was in fact that erm  had actually  er fired a weapon at a person causing injury.
Did he er  tell you anything about ?
Yes sir  he told me  that er   would know  because they ha had been together in prison  and that he also had information that they had been planning armed robberies together.
Superintendent did you  er ask  D C  to give his opinion of a non-armed intervention?
Yes, er I  I asked P C  if his relationship  er with  was such that he would have any influence er  with regard to erm getting him to er surrender  er.
His view was that  erm  if he was armed  he had been armed in the past, he had discharged a firearm, he felt that  er he would be in a desperate position erm, as he was an escaped prisoner and that he he wouldn't have erm any influence over him.
Did you er Superintendent yourself consider whether  perhaps there should be some undercover surveillance of this flat?
Yes I did.
What view did you arrive at?
There are a number of options erm that I considered.
I considered  erm arm unarmed officers actually making an enquiry er at the  flat.
But erm did not pursue this  er  because I considered it too dangerous erm and any information you gained would not be conclusive.
I considered  keeping observation actually on the flat  but because of its its location, did not feel that it would be possible for armed officers  or for that matter, any officer,to maintain observation for any period of time without being seen.
Just pausing there a minute, did you have  did you I should say, have personal experience of that estate?
Yes sir I did.
Did you then consider the use of guns, firearms?
Er yes.
Er, in the light of the information at that time and the options I had already considered  erm I thought  it was likely that we would need armed police officers.
And er  Superintendent what did you do then?
It is necessary  I had come to that view for me, at that time it was necessary for me to contact one of the duty Chief Officers  and on this occasion it was the Assistant Chief Constable Mr , so I made contact with him.
A and what did you tell, ask him?
Well I gave him all the information that had been given to me  and we discussed between us  various options that were open to us.
At the conclusion of which  we were both of the view that an armed police operation was necessary  and he therefore authorised armed police officers to be used and I was to command the incident.
Can you remember roughly what time on the fourth  that conversation took place?
That was at seven fifty P M.
You said that you were in operational control.
Does it follow, if it's not an obvious question.
You had overall control of the further implementation of this operation?
Yes sir, that's correct.
So responsibility was in your hands?
From that moment it was my responsibility.
Please tell the jury, on a sort of general point here, when you were in charge of an armed raid, what are the considerations?
Well, the consideration first of all, is the safety to the public.
er  the next consideration is the safety of the police officers and then we also take into account that in this priority the the safety of the er the criminal and  an armed operation would not be taken if  it was possible to achieve the objective  er in some other way.
But ultimately it is what is the safest option that I would have to go for.
Who was to be in  in control of the tactics to be used for the operation?
Operational er  commanders of incidents erm have a, what is called a firearms tactical advisor, er a highly trained officer who is made available to people in the position that I then found myself, er in order that they can advise as to the tactics to follow and my tactical advisor on this occasion was er Sergeant .
Is Sergeant  someone you have worked with before?
On a number of occasions yes.
H how did you view the prospect of working with Sergeant ?
I I regarded him as a a professional, highly trained officer  er confidence in his judgement.
Following the decision to mount the operation on the evening of the fourth of December, er did you have any further involvement indeed, as of that evening?
Yes  erm I had, I then actually went to the police station  to see if  any further information was to hand, er I spoke again to Inspector   erm  to ask if there was any further information he could give me.
He said that his assessment, the telephonist's assessment of the call was that that he was genuine.
He added at this time that the further information was that the occupants of the flat at  we were frightened of  I also .
He had  what did you say?
He thought they were frightened or  the telephonist or what?

commitments in a recent task.
.
Rights of way are an important part of our heritage  the road network should not be allowed to degenerate further.
All  is a Labour activity  by all people  do things  cost, unless of course special clothing  and then  awfully difficult and making it  people's education and general health.
We feel it's very important that our rights of way network should be maintained and improved where possible which is why we are proposing an issue  thank you.
I'd like .
Thank you Mr Chairman I would agree that there was two or three  on the question of .
We will  outside the erm  the  supporting it if it wasn't for the fact that we understand  that the officers would have a great deal of difficulty spending that money.
Erm these are not schemes which you can cut out with an A B or a C solution.
Every one is different, everyone has its own pattern of possible rat runs and they take a great deal of er er 
hesitation, a great deal of divided effort as near as life as possible in the first instance.
Erm to prevent  that in fact erm we understand these people  a great  so er that is one of the reasons why we .
The second reason  just if I could point erm we only learnt this morning of the  landscape design erm where  we understood that savings were being made by the four members of staff  organisation.
We understand that because of lack of work  they will now only give two of those records  and what people are saying  and obviously  really good.
Finally,cutback period erm  especially the fire  so trouble  erm er gladly we'd like to apologise for his momentarily outburst because of 
.
you never  er not in fact the Committee, we do in the eyes of  when  majority  
.
and that's what we're talking about  because the reason why that wonderful piece of work didn't go through  priority  to set up .
Now if we go back to two years ago on the question of whether or not we should accept erm almost  don't think you'll get any reply  the professional advice of an officer, two years ago or so we had the professional advice of an officer, we were looking at  yearly report of the er  inspector and   
.
strong  of er the er  a number of firemen of the first er  out .
And what was the action of the majority party then, over and  it was to receive the report.
That's what it was.
We might have said no but that's what it was because of pressure put on this side 
.
erm  erm concentration put on  of where  pumping into us, there came back a further report on how one would win that and as I remember it, the professional advise was we should have twenty but Charles   and his  I nearly said men but  progress erm.
They suggested ten.
Now I think if you look back on this report  famous report that didn't through.
That started  because I think Charles saw that they were eventually going had to give way to twenty additional fire fighters and they were looking for safety within the service .
Now if you're a majority party you can instruct officers to come up with a specially paid reduction pol you pay for the policy, so you can then structure the system or look at the service and come up with a reduction, come up with an expansion
.
or come up with a whole so whole position.
They need to know that they can give you your professional, their professional attention they will not make it compulsively, the majority party of what went wrong this  is you were no longer the majority party .
Chairman, I have followed your information and can I direct er Councillor  to item three point four on item four  today whereas if we see that  asks that the full year effect of those  er financial fire fighters are concerned, we wanted to  an additional ten  and that was the position that .
ten and if you can discuss the fire  ten  later on.
That's what the Inspector says we should do.
Council asking Mrs  and Mr  erm  arrangements  save you then making no comment and going back .
Sorry 
Yeah.
Mr .
I think you are asking him to worry about .
Erm thank you gentlemen, we were asked by Mr   of the Conservative budget that if the budget of er cuts and that really  considering.
If that money  in that it does come into  the policy and the guideline here and I  erm  he accused us of  putting out er press releases  talk about  council tax  and this may be popular with .
Well I  strange erm accusation yes we will be, we would keep the council tax down if  I am  that that would be a popular message to give out and so having accepted our  below er the guideline figures  they did take this into consideration but we have a  budget that has elements of growth in industry.
It does er include a past policy  and  the  Planning Department includes two hundred and forty thousand for erm various statutory fire  which seem  so any fire growth over and above our list  are based on the judgement panel that we are .
That was   
.
ever important 
.
and our growth is offset by savings and they are not budget, they are not cuts in services, they are savings which  of efficiency, erm they would would should and would happen erm in any case.
The particular ones, substantial one is erm  down two major  schemes.
Er this will not  cut in any budget erm as  as can be seen from our sheet.
I'd like to erm two  constant er budget, we feel that reinstatement of the capital design staff salaries is important if  not because .
Design work cannot be turned on and off  er  it is er feel flowing continuous process and we must be particularly must be er  as well as practical work in the future.
I hardly dare mention traffic calming but it does seem to be the flavour of of the month at the moment but  to see that the existing work  doubled by  and I know it's going to cost the county erm this  but if you don't want to talk about the children and their crime it is er traffic calming  it certainly is a  and I do believe
I think what we've all  to pay for this erm  that we will perhaps  it will have to come from somewhere and  again  of the  Council Planning Department as we  we do  erm continue .
We are  multiplication work  and there isn't  should be tackled and we were very  that we cannot do this without  and therefore we accept the  grant  grant  fifty thousand in these four counties  planning service which I would say  servicing.
erm  District Council  to erm support the er service and we will come back into the  thirty thousand  council.
So  we are putting towards  will happen anyway  does  and I .
Now Mr .
I'd like to say this is not going to be a very  anyway.
Have another  fire service  erm  we have the Labour mix and budgets.
We want  back to basics.
this year  I'll quickly run through one or two of the  er  various aspects of  er Mr  commented on money being thrown at the problem.
I think  produce  need to increase cash  across the whole of the County  very very .
point of order, the point that I made  make it on this side is that we are not against the expenditure .
Richard  made a very  and I wish he had the confidence about our proposals.
Here, here.
Robert  said that we  to spend money  said the opposite  so doubtful 
Oh they'll spend the money don't worry.
.
budget our priority for our manifesto.
That  spend a proper sum of money on  we spent a lot more but we don't  District Councils  hundred thousand each.
That  about thirty traffic  if that be proposed  use the money for, we do not .
We will also provide money for public transport  
start  the way.
We would hope to make large contributions each years and we would hope  deliberate non standing this year for an increase  year's .
We are able to achieve all of this and priorities in other areas such as the nursery education.
And yet we are not  which Conservative  because at the end of the day you will be  an S S A which is  expenditure or  ie .
Thank you Mr .
Mr  if you wish to speak.
Chairman .
Mr 
I think that all that can be said, has been said Chairman and I think that prudence is the leadership  today..
Mr 
Just to say a few words  fire as usual he didn't actually  those those  to erm .
The Conservatives are inconsistent, I mean that when they wrote the policy, when they were looking at the guidelines  this  erm I can't remember off hand what it was on page fifty.
Erm the Conservative  thirty three million and the Policy Committee is that Labour was actually  sort of lowest.
Erm in terms of Community budget so  this Environment Committee and  Conservatives  gone down to  below sort of seventy two million so we are not actually getting any sort of .
Conservative  actually being down to the traffic calming .
I know it varies, erm we are rather identical we are actually very close together and erm hope that with the erm C C County  what Labour's put forward  to the basic budget er .
it do.
It is the sort of sensible budget.
but in it's balance erm  mix and match.
But it is traffic calming, passenger transport, town sentiments.
I mean I can tell you .
.
provide something on doing  erm  etc., and we call it we call it  but what it is actually doing, it has halved the traffic, that's what its about, giving us the back pedestrian, back  but the traffic still  come through.
is that traffic calming or is it town centre enhancement because it happens to be in the middle of the  towns.
There are connections  passenger transport is one way of calming a number of cars that you've got erm on on our roads.
Now I suggest Chairman that there are number of  on your paper which probably the Committee could really  of this stage I think the sort of important ones.
Labour is what the Policy Committee wants.
It was asked for and arranged to be put erm forward.
Erm if the Liberals wants  they want to stop  seventy two point six er million but they seem to do rather than go to seventy three point three which is what they want to reach, what they want  to look at originally.
Er for the Policy Committee erm  Committee.
If you want to stop at seventy three point six million erm pounds  we're quite happy to erm and I suggest Chairman if if we don't get the the main er growth savings through at the next few minutes of voting that  perhaps a rather longer lunch erm maybe there would be some .
Thanks for your.
Everyone's agreed  certain amount of  er common er  take resolutions numbers one, three, four, five, seven and eight.
. Take resolutions numbers number, one, three, four, five, seven and eight.
Those in favour.
.
.
for a vote on papers item number two, resolution three.
Those in favour.
Those against.
I  move on to Labour motion one six.
Those in favour.
Those against 
fourteen.
Erm  move on to Conservative motion number two.
Paper one all those in favour.
.
Those against.
one, four five, sixteen.
number six.
All those in favour.
six.
Those against.
.
Thank you.
We now move on to Liberal Democrat motion number two.
Those in favour.
Two, three, four, five, six, seven.
Those against.
One, two, three, four, five .
One .
Twenty  the fact to resolution number six.
Those in favour.
.
Those against.
.
Excuse me Mr Chairman  motion  the erm .
I was  Mr Chairman as all the budget process have been  perhaps  so perhaps some  budget  Direct Committee  when in fact .
to to take on item number five.
Thank you.
Before going to item five, can I just ask  items.
General item two straight after number five  back to the budget which allow us a couple of petitioners who have been  so far.
yes.
We will therefore  planning to present the petition.
Thank you Chairman erm  take this opportunity to  the Committee  to  sub Committee erm back early  erm year  three.
What we are asking
Eventually when all of the information is gathered in, we're asking you to quite simply reject this .
The vast majority of the organisations  all of the Civic organisation in the area are strongly opposed to it.
vast majority of the population  five mile radius of the proposed site are against it.
Your County Chairman has received your  personal letters rejecting this planning application o of a maximum two point six  represents  fifteen thousand residents object to it.
Planning has had some two and a half thousand letters of objection to it.
Members of the Detailed Planning has objected to it  grounds.
nineteen thousand three hundred people have objected to it on  petition .
Nobody  seriously wants this installation.
This is an installation that  this County is not required to have one  waste from four Counties.
Initially, I would stress initially the reference side of  has to be  ten per cent of  the the authorisation  the best thing since sliced bread.
showing you the reality  ten per cent the rest comes from all over the country.
You will see photographs behind you showing medical waste international lorries going into  which is a whole year's  circle.
Bringing stuff into the .
Residents  not prepared to tolerate .
We are facing initially something like a hundred and twenty tons of acid gasses from this plant.
The local  whole year .
The current Royal Commission report indicates that this type of er, this  likely to be on average twenty times the current legal limits within a year to two years we will be looking at  receiving it which is ten times  plant producing two hundred fold the legal limits  dialysis.
We  in a world complementary medical evidence showing it does state in effect that the  have our local populations.
Even in this country where advances be  in minimal amounts of impurities that can go through  simply not the population prepared to allow this to happen to us.
Surely in this day and age the all we hear governments consultation documents, even your own consultation documents has been put out to the er future towning plans.
People must be allowed say in the development of their own environment.
This is what we are here for, it's what your Council is here for.
Your care and our representatives to look after the interests of the population within your area.
Not blue circle, we have to have allegiance to them .
H M I P which your officers show er or hold up to advise you technically, never get turned down on authorisations submitted to them.
Er the Daily Telegraph recently made this item clear.
We are asking you for your protection, everything is well documented and clear.
Devastating  environmental public house er disaster for the population.
When you consider the full planning application, please turn it down.
I would take the opportunity to present a petition to the County Council containing over six thousand signatures strongly object to this development and asking you to use all of your powers to protect this.
Chairman er  first of all erm local  is not  erm having said that my  straight run at the moment, erm  future  the decision of the erm Council Golfing Application .
Yes er  er  made an important point, er the application is not in front of the Committee  most important that  will be says anything that would prejudge  consideration of that application.
When it comes to  really assist those who er  of the  so I I would be grateful if members would remember that this item is on the agenda because first of all  petition  received and secondly because there is no explanation in that  not the time to discuss whether this application should be .
Given the constraints of the  Chairman a question .
Chairman on a point of order .
.
.
Erm can we just refer to the general item  paper as you will see they are not set out to be resolutions will  committee er by the County Councils  er paragraphs three one to three three set out the latest position on the planning application.
Erm essentially we  we are sticking  sticking to more information  about environmental  environmental issues  expect er er within the ne next few months.
Therefore we will get a statement to  reporting to the  sub Committee on this particular application until probably .
Er section four sets out the background of public concern to  the amount of  and the number of of er  latest objection which we have received .
As the petitioner pointed out  
two and a half thousand erm letters of objection.
Erm just to refer you to the last sentence, paragraph four three, er to to assure members of the Committee that those er representation  whether the erm application .
Section four four onwards talks about erm the  affecting the  environmental  and makes a point that will be we as officers have been  with  people on this and that is quite unusual er at this stage of the process.
Erm we have also asked for information from er the Action Committee  and if necessary erm  satisfy the  used, we will commission  because we value our  four.
And turning finally to Section four  background to the first half of this  motion er relating to consultations.
certainly prior to the nineteen ninety two legislation erm in relation to what was  er the  was er required  application but as you see since nineteen ninety two legislation, that petition was changed erm and in terms of the resolutions, we suggest  that  recognise the people concerned  Hertfordshire and that they are taking into account  the applications  erm that we continue to work basically with H M I  pollution aspects and that we respond to the Department of the Environment er expressing our concerns er er erm way in which er  consultation has changed and in fact  us.
call Mr .
Er,th thank you Chairman erm I  not aware of the very great public concern erm in the neighbourhood  members  Committee of the Council of our main endeavours in relation er to the  which I believe has now been received.
Well I'm a little bit concerned, however, that er  the letters I had er reflect a rather exaggerated view about  we will say yeah or nay or  may.
Er to to  an application with nature a and I I wondered if the, if this gentleman  regular planning er could describe how exactly the responsibility for all  this application er which splits down  between ourselves er  inspector of pollution and indeed the Secretary of State.
Thank you.
Mr .
Mr Chairman er  Mr Chairman .
Frank .
Erm as far as er  premises  concerned that will be the responsibility of H M I .
Er premises of this size er this er  erm integrated bridges control research and  my opinion  County Council  relation society.
In terms of the planning petition erm as you know this er application has been referred to the Secretary of State and he has informed us that he wants us to carry through erm and consider a consideration of this and make a a recommendation er of it.
At that stage he will either indicate that he wishes to  application in the local term action before he will authorise the County Council to take the decision on it.
Erm if we having considered all the information, both on the planning side and on the pollution side have been agreed er with the application.
We have proved if er having considered all the erm information if we are not happy with it we can produce .
If we refuse it of course it will be our acceptance to the  to submit an appeal which would then er ought to be  by  Secretary of State.
Er it it take a view on that er appeal he will  take into account the er development plan forces which were in force at the time.
And at at the moment  of those who are ponses in the County Structure Planning and  District Planning erm which have no specific proposals relating to er consideration funds.
Erm and possibly in terms of emerging waste level  which of course is due to be er reported .
Thank you Mr .
Yes Mr Chairman, erm I shall move the obvious suggested resolution with amendments which I wish to be circulated in the last .
Erm and er  I I I I'm planning to accept the Labour amendments and the Conservative addition to them.
Er  Er this motion is not an attempt to preempt  applications Mr Chairman  come before us that's  Mr  said  time is indicating for the first time that er September might possibly be  months.
Er I was very conscious that we must be careful, say do nothing and certainly to accept no resolution which might even appear  we don't have a  on planning application and this is .
Erm from the content of the  post bags in the past three months members of this Committee are well aware of the anxieties of the people  but the  circle, building  waste incinerator on the golden edge  first  of the City .
The volume of the testing matters  which have received my .
Erm  the variety of the words which protestors have  to stress their anxieties, erm have shown er  this is not an orchestrated campaign, although it is er very well organised .
Most people have been worried that this incinerator would be too close to the school in which their children are taught.
Their homes, shops, their community centre and centres and to the place in which they work.
Protests have come not only from all over the  but themselves  considerable numbers and from further afield, I think Wolverhampton was  my .
I have been impressed by the variety of the protesting letters, almost without exception.
People have written sincere, angry and occasionally abusive letters.
Erm I take all the motions, first to try to assure these people that we shall, we are  that will be taken  and I hope that that er has been achieved.
Erm and also because I saw no early prospect of the application coming  reports.
Erm I turn to the last paragraph motion Mr Chairman.
When an application is enforced  Community is proposed then positive measures should be taken to advise residents of the proposals.
That raises matters  principle  because under the present law it is a public very large vehicle which has to be alert .
I hope that the last part in my motion now translated it was suggesting a resolution by officers with the amendments regards  was further Department of the Environment who actually  prevent such a situation .
Erm and our our next resolution in motion with the .
Thank you Mr Chairman .
Is your resolution formally accepted?
That's formally accepted.
Mr .
Chairman  erm I'd  start erm by  for the Labour Group motion  committee like  people also who erm  have actually sort of written to us  letters  repeat what they said but the vast vast majority that  erm have expressed the genuine concerns of the people who have left work .
Er a pity too and er also the villages erm in the in the area erm which I know very well and  my  and the Letchworth er  Letchworth itself.
Erm I only want to say it is very important that we must do nothing to sort of prejudice the outcome of the consideration of the planning application  environment cases  sub committee, erm at a later erm stage.
Erm this week the three routes  fully abrupt committee have in fact sent a letter in their joint names to the press in North Hertfordshire er trying to say erm what the position is at the moment.
Er say that the application has not yet been considered.
Erm that it it it will be erm that by law the County Council must consider any planning application which is made erm to it for a particular site.
We don't use sites, we don't make planning applications, applicants  do but we have to consider that we can't say we don't like it, go elsewhere .
We do have to consider it.
We are also not allowed to take into account records of .
We have to look at the application er on its merits in the particular erm circumstances and I'll tell you something which we will certainly  have to do erm and I I will say, I will say this in sort of due respect erm, because we are grateful to them that we can see.
Er I  to the campaign which is taking place.
Erm perhaps also  say how urgent a lot of people  but perhaps there ought to be sort of changes in planning law er changes indeed which erm this Council has sent messages to government about erm er previously.
Erm  Chairman just amends the er motions put forward by  essential to accept.
I in number one we did want to replace the word  by erm reassures them  because we  that just for the strength of this.
Erm we are reassuring everyone who has written to us in the  that all of the  will be taking it fully into consideration when the money application is is considered.
In relation to erm the second erm erm motion erm we did want to add at the end  that Her Majesty's Inspector of Pollution incessantly environment 
.
erm etc.
Not only having gone to higher standards of  were but also looking to account a motion which has already been passed by the Environment  Committee on the fourteenth of September nineteen ninety three and what I was basically saying was that erm  incinerator  should come to That's Life that the current E E C proposals on  erm  that that  and I know that's not a  rule but in fact when Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Pollution is actually considering this  want to draw their attention to a motion which in some cases were  saying that we would expect the highest possible standards if those developments were to go ahead with the .
So if we we just want to make that  erm clear erm number three er  we wouldn't like to add a fourth erm motion and the Labour resolutions it is  erm it's actually  end of it  should be, consideration should be given .
There is a reason for this Chairman is that erm I think erm many of us  and I am sure we  would be deserved by recent articles in the Daily Telegraph er particularly the one that appeared last week which erm referred, I can see in the report, that it referred to a report which is very critical of the work of Her Majesty's Inspectorate of erm Pollution.
Er that certainly alarmed me because erm I certainly  
.
H M I P erm  there which  job we were doing.
What we thought, all of us it's going to actually  this report item which is  and I think therefore because we certainly haven't had time  
.
discuss this with officers, the same  came up over the weekend.
Erm that we  consideration of  be given  by  independent Technical Advisor on environmental damage.
Erm er  the costing involves  we will just say we ought to be  for the first fortnight.
We would also  consider the resolution .
Thank you .
Mr .
Thank you very much Mr Chairman  thank you very much for giving me a chance to speak this afternoon.
There is just one observation I wish to make to the Committee this afternoon and it actually goes about the whole issue of the planning aspect of what's gone on.
There was indeed  information given to Labour on this but that application proceeded  by the Council  and I think some of the officers have omitted that in the last few weeks.
It's just one word of warning that we actually strengthen the application received to the future to make sure  again.
Mr .
question alone I don't know whether the officers would want to respond to that last comment first.
is that that the  consultation is a problem  the legislation which takes away the requirement for several  developments to to promote valuable time and be advertised prior to the application  so the first most people knew about this application was after this this  opportunity prior to that to discuss it with the development  before it was submitted.
Could I just follow on what Mr  was saying earlier when he introduced the  he he referred to  that er  are no references to incinerators in the structural plan.
Would this planning application be regarded as a  of the .
As far as this Planning Application is concerned .
The Planning Policy which applies purely to the  and the  in case the sub Committee have already er discussed with  etc etc for this.
As far as the other aspect is concerned, that there is no  something that would have to be dealt with on its merits taking account of the arguments for and against.
As I said you mention it may be something which is out of our field and we'll have to make sure that the arguments for and against the problems  the problem .
O K.
Mr .
The question  erm we are told that we have got to take into account the actions of er  true  to me that the er  reference site, therefore, we must carry on as er .
I think we are looking at the advantages and disadvantages of erm various types of  problems that might occur.
Really one of the things  at the examples of where it's happened in the past.
I would expect er  I would expect the  to actually provide us with the small details of of  and  not necessarily  same .
.
That's very kind of you Chairman .
Thank you.
Chairman er  case  reports to the letter, the joint er er  that's on our er under the names of these three departments .
I think that's very useful.
I think a number of us were becoming very concerned indeed that this was eventually becoming a political  area and this this is  dealt with in this way
.
very very important  issue considering most of the issue er  the environmental interest .
Er that started with  show that we are  whatever our  issue and obviously resolve er  a very  for the benefit of of .
Er I will er be taking up with Oliver  the question of  report erm since it is a critical report er er like  take the place of Oliver  to ask the government what their views are er on the performance and the truth is .
I think that will be of better use this time er
Frankly some of the other things that have been going on  weeks.
Er I don't think er  erm difficulty of er amendments that would be made  er in  a couple of words here and there er the people  very specific at what we are attempting to achieve  problem with that.
I thought Chairman that er Mr  is saying that er they would consider any  consult with the Union on some of the statements that have been made and I quite  er the item D is in fact necessary that er I I I gave no arguments, it should be given consideration if it is  come to that and er it will come back  presumably to form a proposition of  deal with it then.
Er Brian  has already confirmed that er he will support the Conservative resolution which in effect recognises that some of the changes in government regulation over the past er decade has not always turned out for the best er this County in particular  order er  other  asked the Secretary of State to re  to relieve some of the pressures that generates in that area and it's for that reason er  
to move the resolution er that asks that the consideration be  and the reinstatement of the general er er development order which would have the  er and earlier  for the planning application on the basis of er being  mainly on friendly .
Thank you  erm I think that's all I'm concerned with  except to say that I wrote er to a little church spelling what it is today  er  really into consideration on its  this proposition so that we can ensure all of the issues with er our requirements.
.
Does anyone wish to  any further comments?
Right  I propose to go through  and go through one of our  Green.
So the first one to start  resolution number one.
same time .
Would it be possible to report that as unanimous?
.
I wish now to move on to item two.
That's a couple of petitions to be made to .
We were asked  petition.
Mr Chairman  residents of   there was  recommended to, however, if  transport  which has caused the residents to draw .
How many points  we consider the transport  as inappropriate in  and effectiveness.
We also  because  County Council to address  and introducing traffic calming measures such as er costings  or .
and as a result of this petition the public  and  association.
first  and I am sure we can afford  transport spending  school .
Thank you for listening to me er  petition.
Thank you very much.
comments  approach .
Well now we go to Mr .
thank you  situation  are  appointed jointly by the County Council and the  County  and effectively these consultations and  of that er appointment and the following the last Committee we agreed with the er  detail and  of the  and we also agreed that we would not go ahead with the  which  until we have seen the result of the  consultation and therefore there  still outstanding as  whether we wish to action the  not.
The report  deal deals with a fair  detail and concentration and then on page four this the erm main results of the different elements of the result  and though grouping them into those  had high levels of sport er  to those that were where now the officers  and a I think that if you could see that er er there was a considerable census for those from the officer part of the .
The erm the views coming back from the consultant were obviously er so  follow occasions but not dramatically so.
So that there will be general consensus whilst they do represent a reasonable view of the people .
The erm main issue that are not reinforced  that we are trying to determine an overall strategy that will last for the next ten or fifteen years.
We are not talking about a a package of measures which we go and try to do tomorrow.
It is absolutely clear and I want to make it clear that we may not be doing anything tomorrow or the next day, we'll all be, we'll all be  try to understand and determine is how we will deal with the issues in  as and if traffic develops over the next ten years or so and that strategy will then form the basis under which we will try to resist  city area that we did not see there.
That's the key point  ought to go across .
On the general  the City and District Council met er and erm agreed to in fact  upon consideration to the  joint meeting er a joint Committee .
On Tuesday the eighth of February as I understand it that meeting then will report to a Council meeting of the  Council, so I would not wish to put forward the suggested resolutions that are on the order paper, er I think I would want to suggest to you ladies and gentlemen for decisions today to whether you wish  or not and then I would suggest that the appropriate decision is to await the  of the City additional Council and therefore bring this matter forward to our Committee on March the twenty ninth.
The only one other point I do want to say is is on .
It has become apparent on some of the issues, some of the comments that we made  that  was  if I could call it the  you'll know what we're talking about and I don't  if we are talking about the  there was there was a point somewhere where  talked about ing an increase or short of journey time along the ring road and this has been taken as I understand to be that we are setting out an increase of speed er traffic on the sections of road to a junction and that's totally in force and it was  either.
Well the accident was  was that if you look at the junctions along that section of road and carried out qualifications  junction, you could release, reduce delays from junctions and  effect of your making your total journey in a shorter time  making that route slightly more attractive.
We would go through a great deal of trouble to ensure that the  
between junctions did not suffer for  be  and any proposals that we agreed, you agreed to make  fact the existing  services .
I just thought it was worthwhile making that point as it is made to be very .
Mr 
Thank you for  
.
Erm only  support it.
This saga since this recession has been a sorry tale.
It was beginning with the disasters  on  one way systems and then of course a panic decision to do further research into the so called traffic problems of St Albans.
The very work of the Consultants in  associated with the road construction industry.
Nothing particularly wrong with that but that does show where they are coming from when they are looking into being with as I call it the so called traffic problems of St Albans.
And then there was a consultation exercise,consultation exercise which will .
Relevant groups of Consultant, those  in the  for some reason are not  despite the fact that the abortive  scheme.
Would it involve  belonging to the residents who were  Residents Association but  was worth that.
There were the City questions, you asked if  traffic jam.
It mostly comes up to you with a clipboard and says 'Do you mind sitting in traffic jams, yes or no'.
.
What is amazing is that two  didn't seem to like that.
.
And then look at the conflicting interest, whereby the Consultants did their own report and didn't research into it.
and I think we must recognise that it is only  that many of the questions and questionnaire had they been displayed  of what they wanted to propose.
And then there was the attempt not to issue a questionnaire to every household but to reserve the questionnaires in the Town Hall for four week days  Saturdays to  will honour the people who didn't actually have  Friday who were at home perhaps  walk in to the City Centre you might be able to pick one of these up and then there was the problem distrib in distributing the questionnaire because despite of the assurance given to the consultants they were nevertheless distributed amongst the numerous  St Albans and believe you me even those likely people who did go to the press do sometimes  for every  that we having suddenly fully congressed to see whether perhaps there might be a consultation questionnaire lurking within it.
And then there was the farcical, farcical final report  I  I used to take  will be the first to endorse and interpreting those statistics at least in my case  course, but I blush  what these Consultants have done, let's give you a few examples, sixty five per cent, you see on page three think that changes are necessary, they were asked 'do you think changes are necessary to meet the fifteen transportation problems and to be  needs? '
Well a little more , in future  ask  travels for the earliest  make changes and deal with the future and again this is remarkable that only sixty five per cent absolutely endorse that  but our potentials in the , if you look at the next examples, forty four  we are told here were in favour of the  strategy and thirty six per cent opposed.
That's it, we can  majority vote on that sort of basis.
Well  you will find for instance that three times as many people will strongly oppose and was strongly in favour, something omitted from the report in front of me and  there are eight per cent there that were indifferent.
to your Council did I knock on the door and say  standing for the Liberal Democrats, they said well we're not sure it's the way we are going to vote for you, we may vote for somebody else.
I don't put them down as a .
I put them down as a 'No', eight per cent couldn't bring themselves to support this strategy, they are 'Nos'.
Madam if you add thirty six to eight what do you get.
You get forty four, forty four in favour, forty four  and that doesn't take into account  that the Consultants  in the overall strategy so Madam would question, is this difficult to get .
There's always  to say  them up will they  against more buses and public transportation.
Yes.
We are asking questions .
Do you believe that sin is bad and that virtue is good.
Do you believe the people should be faithful for their wives etc.,
etc.,
Is anybody timing this rigmarole please?
Does anybody care Chairman .
.
I am sorry to be  concerned, I don't know what  he wants to pour something down my throat and this is  .
perfectly clear Chairman, if you  have .
That is perfectly relevant, we saw what you felt when you were briefed with the reference on the twenty second of December.
Unfortunately  view, and I'm sorry that we don't have .
On page five again this is the persistence, the  forty per cent in favour, thirty per cent against.
That again is not  sixty per cent of those  again I would suggest that that part of the report is misleading.
The Consultants at least have to recognise, they couldn't fix  that the closure of  was strongly opposed but it was a mystery to all of us except obviously Mr  on the  December how they were unable to nevertheless, to accept a little dissimilar rejection of part of my and the associated increased  in the  despite the fact that seven different people are of the same  several different people  same margin Mr  but not .
did the Consultant have difficulty here I suggest  but if one giver of strategy is demolished by public consultation then that's fortunate but in the second  demolish then your whole strategy tumbles down .
This strategy does not have public support.
I if you don't like the sound of it Mrs  then I'm sorry for you but this is what democracy is all about and it is about time you listened to what people have to say.
Now I'm disappointed to see here before us  a motion of  group which  report saying that he should receive the report.
It is perfectly clear to me and fellow Councillors  that a report which is so badly  and which so badly uses statistics, cannot be received because it is not of sufficient quality for this County Council and  support the District Council to use it.
I don't therefore, at the earliest possible  to reject this whole exercise book and to start a proper consultation strategy of proper transportation strategy for the City of St Albans.
Thank you Mr  Mr .
I usually to start by saying Chairman, have you followed that?
Erm I don't think I have been down to that  I think I've sh erm wired the whole damn  out of my mind because er it's a long time since I  heard such garbage in this chamber, it's fortunate for us  Chairman that Mr  isn't a member of the Environment Committee because if that's the kind of contribution that he's prepared to make on these occasions we would could well do without it.
Here, here.
Here, here.
Chairman the St Albans traffic issue, the erm bus  for quite a long period of time but throughout that period of time Chairman the County Council's decision has been absolutely clear.
We believe that St Albans er has a traffic problem facing it in recent years, two or three year's ago at the height of activity er the problems facing it were were more obvious  and along with that situation er there's no question about that and one might be forgetting to thinking the problem and not the way  it hasn't, it will return now, we know it will be return and therefore we should be firm in our resolve and at some point in time in the future that problem must be addressed sensibly for the good of the people of St Albans.
It has also been our our position of this County Council Chairman that we will never seek to impose a solution on St Albans, we felt that it's our duty to highlight the problems  we  to give them our expertise er  as part of the leading part of our Authorities Committee in this country.
Er and seek good qualified er Consultants to carry out the work which could be deliberated on by the various Committees of the County Council and the District and that work has been done and I think if I saw anything Chairman from the meeting on the twenty second of December at St Albans, it was that form  very first time three political parties took up the policy  and they started to address particular issues er er er we believe  less measures partaken.
Over the period of action five to ten years.
Now I I I don't think there's any doubt about this Chairman that that particular group bears er comment from us er er part of the er Conservative resolutions made wants to acknowledge the fact that for the first time all parties, members of the parties haven't started to look in detail at these  St Albans and many aspect, many aspects of the Consultants' strategy of starting to appeal.
There are relevant stair er Chairman which you can look out of place at the present moment of time but they will need to be addressed at some point in time in the future and therefore one could be forgiven for wanting to prioritise various  but in general terms, the strategy that has been er looked at is the progress of St Albans in general, there may be small elements of it and some of these have already touched upon but in general that is no sound strategy er which  over a period of time and in the process of that it will be essential to monitor erm the effect of some of the changes as you go forward to see in fact whether the other elements of strategy that were erm put in to that er work were in fact still necessary and whether they should be  have some .
So all in all er the survey approved says   
.
in in coming to grips with this issue we have realised how particular they are  met er and a number of members will prevent from getting to that meeting to to put their views on the table and for this reason er they decided to defer that.
Er the Director of Transportation recognises that, it was said that he's happy to to await the outcome of  liberations by that er District Council and that's what the Conservative group has suggested that we do but if he wants you to recognise that every policy has to be accepted, the way in which they have performed  time and decided to be addressed by my members of of all parties  and therefore I urge you to support the Conservative resolutions I now put forward.
Thank you for  secondly I was  that the decision now is left to the the District Council  er  have you not  discuss some parts of elements  er could be addressed in the short term.
Er I really can't accept that  er  general  questionnaire  responded to sixty five per cent twelve per cent of  sixty five per cent of you will recognise and agree that changes were needed  that are existing now erm and so there must be evidence  as and when the erm district erm  district erm .
So I cannot accept that .
Mr .
try and be er er er as positive as I always am but er  
all well know.
However I must start by saying that er the County Council  are giving so many people the hundred and twenty nine thousand people who signed  contingence.
Erm er that problem did seem to be appealing  in the shape of a tachograph.
Questions of this  switched on and some of them how to do.
First thing is to make sure that you get an opportunity to discuss it and I agree  other people who actually res responded in  seem to collect the fee and I am not paid to  to collect the fee to try to make it very difficult for people to respond but nevertheless the numbers that we, I think in terms of other areas, other areas, the response that we got  it is a bit ironic though to sit here in the afternoon having listened in the morning to a lovely discussion which was agonising  three hundred, five hundred thousand for  on traffic calming.
Er then to er put  er against the background  as the District Council last last week were being told our budget will cost us er to er  accidents and of course what this exercise would cost us, three hundred and fifty thousand  is the amount very close that some of you just want to spend on the  doing traffic calming over the next year  year.
So I mean is certainly makes sense on the background and very calmly by er Mr  saying  very positive so I can't hold my hand up and pick out particular  in which they, some of them er never change  opposition  District Council  that their negative response if you like but there were, there were some positive responses but only  I have to say this for something like four  er  proposed  paper and one of those  in which er lots of  in which relevance and er businesses in the area could have  er the thing that er  response was er this  this partic particular phrase would seem to be saying  trouble erm er  identified.
.
and it isn't like that one at all but nevertheless there there is a way  to adopt something like four strategy.
This is, this is why I find it very sad I mean having gone to erm  Meeting for our  my apology for this.
to get known response long before the County  er desider er decide, consider what good will come .
That's to start with  if you look at the  you will find that erm and then you've had that sort of what er local people  that is now part and policy.
Thank you very much..
proposing.
Now what do I find  oh oh dear we now say no  great.
no to the Railway Group but this particular  Council  it isn't the type of  bits and say no to that.
I want to see er the this rubbish dump  but this isn't the time to do it and as the Conservatives said, we should wait on er to see what the  Council er wants to do and I take that on board.
And certainly I would, above all else, above all else, I would like to say to people whose, how comes  jeopardised by the  group.
The areas  through are the safe  was only built fifteen years ago, right the way through .
I'd like to say they relax  our agreement,
but apart from that the Government has
is the way  the total response of the City and District Council and it's had a chance, this Committee, to look at it  and move forward.
That's the right approach and I suggest to this Committee that if you take the Liberal Democrat  Conservative resolution that will be not a bad .
Thank you Mr  I now 
Er thank you Chairman erm I should say as I live er  St Albans and I actually er live .
Erm on what they report does  is is the ringway.
I don't think it is.
No I don't think .
Erm and these are the fairly brief er  Chairman I think, I am sorry for disappointing  Mr  because  because erm I  main properties but erm we are basically I think sort of more or less agreed  parties that we actually want this .
Er the reason  want referring because  hasn't commenced it's considered er view and the last thing we want is to be in business  actually doing is enclosing on St Albans and anything that St Albans doesn't actually want.
I mean I think you all learnt from the one way system and the fiasco erm of that was  actually there.
Erm on the other hand if it's if anyone who doesn't think that St Albans hasn't got a traffic problem erm well they probably live in a .
.
Erm but there there are sort of problems erm there.
We want to get views of St Albans District Council  am I told erm that last Thursday evening in the snow, er Counc St Albans Council came through first er to erm agree it.
Er but but but not not right.
Er I am sorry this  Mr   means the tone of his
Here, here.
it sounds as if he was launching a little democrat er campaign for for the District Council Elections in May  that's what it  sounded .
.
Erm I do think Charles   we need some serious approach  er er and deal with this problem.
It's a very complex  actually .
There are sort of costs in that respect that that come out of this erm business report er and on the late sides erm we would actually support the motion that's been moved by er Charles  and Jane  but there is a policy of response and that doesn't mean to say that they will accept all of it but there may be some good elements er er within it but we need to actually refer it.
The end of the  I wanted to do Chairman apart from well  that er we can support erm the third motion.
Is I think we probably do need as Mr  suggested to move number one  suggested resolutions, erm now if the Liberal Democrats won places in  and if they'd rather have the work noted  proceed to proceed by something sinister.
It might take just a decision for St Albans oldest  of the country by having changed the word received to .
So if we would like further consultation apparently it was noted in view of the test  carry out  what we could do erm in fact the questionnaires  have the response, I do share some of Mr  's er er worries  that erm I think we ought to get  out of the way and say  to number one that this er .
.
Yeah well Mr Chairman I would formally like to  motions  my  when the study  one  and the problems of this  having  to despite that the District Council  have  six and it's  much further I again I think  specification of erm what we do need despite  what we should not need  this time, this time  later.
er er another er er anoth another Committee because I would like to accept the  if we could do something  then  modern conditions.
So erm I I I've got them in the back of  of what type of strategy you should .
I think it would be fair to say we should not, at this moment in time, take any decision on on the matter .
.
Taking votes on the first
.
number one  to take up the work of the .
Agreed.
take the Conservative resolutions against a  to  afterwards taking .
.
Right thank you very much.
.
..
That's it, that is it .
We've waited at St Albans.
what you'd have to do
.
reception 
.
.
.
.
was for us.
.
I would now like to move  back to er  defer  lunch.
.
.
circulate  paper from erm a new motion in terms of the environment  motions erm  defers more than that I don't really say  
We had about two hours on on it this morning.
Needless to say there has been er

I hope you realised they said a few a words on there that's  just been picked up like  while I was 
Yeah I know.
on the phone.
I hope you're aware that   .
They said record  everything.
Otherwise we will come and see  how bad it is.
I shall be .
Is forty three okay?.
Well what's Mark doing?
That's that's fine.
Mark had .
Mark  will he be first to finish?
He can go and he'll be third .
You're telling me you have that round the house playing, on record all the time?
So you can't  
That's right.
Ah?
You can't .
Well you wouldn't .
Will it be so unusual,?
be good.
These are corpus records.
For the  er  .
Stick it in your bedroom.
What, does it pick up the farting?
What?
Stick it in your bedroom.
Won't get nothing there.
Yeah.
You'd have laughed .
Catherine's house  the bed shop.
There was a man in the window and he jumped on the bed!
And he laid there!
And he must have been nearly ten minutes!
So we sat and watched him.
And he got up and he got on another bed!
And he laid there!
And he went round all the beds!
And then he bought head board!
Ah?
Unless he'd just bought a bed.
Our dad's been away.
She won't go out!
Why?
She doesn't .
From the  dinner time to 
tea time.
No.
What's the matter with her?
Well at least she's , he hadn't been doing enough work somehow!
Cos he come 
I have.
back home !
I've been  I've been to the    Saturdays and Wednesdays 
Saturdays and Wednesdays, Saturday and Wednesday.
No exception   Keep it up!
Yeah, but whe , on the Tuesday and the Friday.
But not on  
No?
I do sometimes have a lay down  but in my school she says right, can you go and  , I go like that.
Must have .
Oh shit!
Mm?
Supposed to be up Sally's for tea!
Shit!
That's what I said!
It's Thursday!
Oh Shit!
That's a new word for the dictionary, that!
Paid up the insurance for the car, yeah?
No.
That'll cost you a fiver!
.
It said nothing of the !
We'd asked you  
.
It was definitely he was getting the parts.
Alright.
Yeah but that was 
Didn't he say?
two months ago!
Six months.
That was too bad  cos  I said to this bloke .
Then you can pay my car can't you?
Yeah I can.
It'll be two years.
I said, well .
Well Buddy, got the assessor back down there, as you know..
Did they charge you for the ?
So he's  at least we'll go round all the  the .
It's only a small piece of carpet.
Does , does the manufacturer , does the production  and they can't make the part and we need part B  for it.
Cos the stock .
Dad?, see that over there?
That  right?
In between the .
And don't let  guff right!
Don't   !
So it should been in it!
They wouldn't have guessed, they could say we'll be out Friday night!
I don't need it Friday night and leave it in the that .
Stop it!
it'll be   Don't !
Cos it'll be 
If they open that new garage then we will   .
Are they gonna ?
Won't be open .
Dad?
This, is costing me !
Pat's not with them.
Perhaps they'll be writing if off?
in again 
Well no, he's gonna give us your car back.
As soon as the bloke 
Do the same thing.
agrees .
So.
So.
Ha !
What's to be done?
At where?
Well, I'm afraid it could be there for six months!
Because the manufacturer  the part  Ford.
Are not making  at the moment  the part , the problem with the manufacturer .
The manufacturer    said she was having the problem there.
It's only a small body kind of thing.
what're they gonna have to order?
Behind .
She said, the part they were gonna have to put on it 
To fix it!
was about a hundred and eighty quid!
And then they were gonna have cut most of that off  to replace 
to  
cut a piece off.
Well where do you think it comes from?
Dunno,.
Do you know the woman at the end of our road, right?
Takes me to  school everyday.
She's got a D reg Sierra  with a, a locking petrol cap  something went wrong with this other one.
They couldn't get her a new one!
Ford.
They could not get her a new one!
She had to have it modified!
I know, they've got to get it made!
Repaired.
clutch 
That's a D reg, nineteen eighty seven car!
But Ford could not get one in the new cap!!
Incredible!
there's a problem on construction line, to have it made and it won't done , cos there's a problem with it!
So that the  .
You could send out to Japan quicker, for that part !
Been waiting for this , this is supposed to be  in the U K and you just can't get the part!
Right, I'm going to the work, I'll see you later!
Bye!
Bye!
He couldn't have the part!
Are you coming off  or what?
He says one thing  not only do we  
Well I wonder where he gets that from?
So there's me 
Can't .
No.
Plus we got the trouble with the !
You can't blame .
I think it's gotta be  through there.
You see, it's the same with , he didn't want the car to go into Green's .
And then they  
They say you've gotta put the car into Greens and that's !
They recommend it anyway 
Now that I've never ever come across that before!
They've, they've never in fact  that means they normally  or something like this on a car.
They just  .
Perhaps they'll  
I'll go down and show them  tomorrow.
Had the car  sometime , if I'm not there,.
They'll take it.
you would!
a time.
on the bus        fifteen pound eight plus vat  when they say five pound eight plus vat, plus insurance  that's cheaper.
well you don't qualify for it .
So she goes I'll found out but I'm sure you don't qualify it.
And even if you did you couldn't get .
Yes, you qualify for it!, you do qualify for it.
Under the .
and  .
Oh.
And I said to .
Yeah.
it happened to us  after forty eight hours!
But we got it.
We'd have had a car  .
Got this  got this quote, right, from  the other garage
what just  , how much did you say?
Seven  seven figure!
Cheap  right!
They were gonna spray the whole car, which Green's won't do!
Green's would wanna charge another six hundred pound to spray half a car 
Six fifty seven quid.
Right?
Green's is a right rip off!
Now  we, we've said that.
This other garage can throw in a courtesy car as well!
And they've   it's gotta go into Green's because we've  we've paid our policy!
Paid our insurance!
Speedy and efficient.
Yeah.
I said, well I have seen  
speed at the moment, but I haven't seen any efficiency!
Yeah, they've got to contact us now.
And I'd like to see quality!
Well I wouldn't buy a wheelbarrow at Green's 
No!
he's going to catch a cold!
But the attitude  .
I rang up Monday and I said to her
You know, what's happening about
What's happening about the car?
When could the car be done?
No, when  when  
No , I rang up to say  the car should be out on Monday should I like to say Wednesday , no problem.
No.
I said  problem?
No problem!
No, he told you that he definitely get it, eleven o'clock!
He said , he said at  
I says 
Is he ?
Why?
He's taught me   .
all mine I suppose.
She and erm  the children.
And he dreams about a .
Won't have the ..
You'll be coming round nan's  then will you?
She'll have to go to town near Dudley.
That's .
He's supposed to go to er  .
Gotta go to  what's it called again?
Oh look!
They've run over to the sheep!
Didn't know  pretending.
He's supposed to be  or something.
Supposed to have let me know last night   again.
I don't know what's up.
You'll have to ring him up!
You did go in di , didn't you?
Go in.
From work I'll have to ring here  and we'll have to go and get him.
to er  just gotta go.
He doesn't know what day.
Well the forecast says  it's gonna be rough!
In the north of Wales that's in snow and blizzards all day!
They said that   or two.
And what about Tuesday?
Then we got  you know,next Tuesday.
Stroll on!
How's your fingers?
Sore, better, but a bit sore.
It will be for a bit love.
How do you cut your fingers in your cupboard?
Dunno.
Cos they weren't near the glasses.
They were in the .
.
Mm.
Always does  
Yeah I will.
Yeah.
See  see that.
Not the finger.
Give me the .
It, it, they're always .
Ooh dear!
.
But when we got married  but when we started to    we went to  we did our shopping in there.
There was a  a nice furniture shop  in   and there was a nice  hardware stores.
Didn't belong to the same people  But they did an awful lot of  trade.
You know, market days and .
And we got our furniture   furniture in this place and there's a story in this one.
So we to the hardware shop and we bought some mats and  dishes and  God knows what!
And we bought a    Then a , don't seem to have heard of  in a kitchen.
Mm.
And  we bought this extra   and then went better side of the bed.
Mm.
And  as time went on  course  I'd got no experience of house  cleaning boots  and managing, or anything like that!
Cos we had this mat there a long time  and I think we picked .
But it was a beauty!
Pretty one, you know, a nice  one.
And  I didn't know what to do with the thing!
.I didn't know what to do with it dad!
No experience  of ever anybody doing it.
Can't  think to ask.
Mm.
So it's up in my bedroom  during the summer   scrubbing  .
That's right, and windy!
So I put it up   and I gave to   like that, I went  put them in the water!
Like this!
Oh!
But the , it was hot!
And to dry that one  and, and that came up like  pretty.
And that one .
I'm sure, you know, I was thinking there now, I think  there's a lot of wool in tha , in them.
Mm.
It's half wool, half nylon.
And I think that's why you cannot clean them, cos .
And if I had my way, they would have  
And there was no nylon around in those days.
If I used this with my way.
Mm?
If I had my way, I'd have Axminster straight through the house .
Or else 
Yeah.
your way.
Well Violet is wasting her time isn't she?
She could have nice now, all ready.
She could.
there'll be never be any other    too young for her now.
No, kids there.
That's why I couldn't keep my eyes !
Mm  yes, but even her spare bedroom needs , she could be doing it up and renting that one.
Couldn't 
Mm.
she?
But she won't be able to afford to now!
Not right now!
Mm, she could it rent  
While they've got the chance to go.
Oh God, it's her bloody Honda !
Nice sound.
!
These are the new disabled stickers.
Oh.
They used to be like that.
They  
I i , is it for ?
No, you go in the box .
Yes.
Yeah.
Passport holders.
Ah?
Passport holders.
Mm.
There's one 
in the G P O.
So where are you gonna put this now?
There's room in the front of the car .
So, if you'd like to come down and have conversation?
Sue's gone to er  Llangywneth Nathan,by his brain scan.
I don't know, they think that he's got er  dead brain cell or something, yeah?
Why?
Then here, going  she's now going to .
It's  the back, the connection, from here to the brain.
Oh .
No, there's just something that  not him  here isn't connected to the brain properly.
Is it from here?
That's  there's something wrong.
Why doesn't  try out here.?
They've done it!
.There's some connection.
And they're going to find out what it is that the doctor said.
Do you think they will?
.
Er
How will I get one next ?
To, get it then!
But I can't afford to get it  at the same time anyway cos he  he won't be down to
Go get it.
But when I was   .
But er  How much did you pay for that black one?
My black waistcoat?
Mm.
How do you learn to make a waistcoat out of it?.
.
Like heavy black .
I like that coat,.
Cos I'm fed up of stuff going all bubbly!
The stuff that the wai , keep a waistcoat  for work.
If anything, it's   .
Good God his trousers!
Mm?
He does know.
I put 
I know!
put him there!
He told me to put him there.
Mm?
He signed the papers and all  
Have you done the  painting you done?
He relies on .
They can pay redundancy in the end, couldn't do that?
Pay redundancy.
.
I'll try.
Right.
So when'll she be down now?
Ha?
I don't know, cos she's going to a friend's for .
Mm.
doing tomorrow.
She wants a day in bed,she , breakfast in bed today.
Why?
What?
Why does she want a day in bed?
She just  wants to be in bed for a day.
Lazy little bugger!
Put that in jar!
I will put it out of 
God!
sight!
And then  you can go to er  your   !
Right.
Right.
I think that's horrible!
Right.
Tara!
Ha ha ha ha  ha ha ha ha ha .
Right, she's took the trousers.
Has she?
So shall we go round  shopping?
Yes  we'll go round to the  to get  Don't know what's the matter .
Oh, it's two more grains in it more than the other I expect!
Right?
No.
Colder.
.
Do you think that it's going to snow?
Mm?
Do you think that it's 
No!
going to snow?
Not dow , not down here anyway.
Oh.
Says on the picture it will come to North Wales, but I doubt it.
We shall be a bit cold for that reason  no doubt.
Mm.
Clematis are going up the sticks now!
Are they?
Mhm.
Except this.
it's going up
I see them seven pound!
?
No.
They were four, five pound there  and they were only three pound and Wickland And they're beauties!
Th , that's the big one there!
These lovely .
You get  for them.
.
That's
Oh, she's gone!
One 
Oh.
there  two there and  a little bit there.
Bit better.
Perhaps it'll dry out.
Mm mm .
Right, are you gonna get ready and go?
And they're all tearing round, look at this!
I know!
Dustbin lorry had it!
They'll be all these visitors campaigning for the election now!
Oh God yes!
Chap your door every five minutes!
Be telling them then to grow up in er  Westminster.
Not act like a bunch of kids!
They'll soon be potato picking.
Yep.
I see where those sheep have been and grazed those
Cabbages nearly gone.
cabbages 
all on.
The grass is growing up through it!
Yeah.
And all.
Starting to be the growing.
The grass is green  
isn't it?
It's a wet month.
Mm.
That  that causes  everything to grow!
You know, the growing season.
Mm.
I wonder why  Cockney won't let you pick
Ooh because the 
their own fruit?
because people pinch you see.
Pinch the  pinch 
yes.
Yes, but it's against the law isn't it?
Well I don't know much 
And you can report him for that!
apparently he charges you see.
I don't know, is there a controlled price on  stuff like that?
But it's er  a London ca er  is that an old boy's principle?
No.
The way he was brought up I suppose, but  it's a wonder it  it's a wonder he's got any business at all!
Mm!
Cos everybody's fruit must be in the same way.
Yeah.
Those daffs have gone pale, haven't they?
And I, I,
They're always dark brown!
If I was you now  I'd go to him and give it to him, I tell you!
You want your money back!
But he won't be there, quite likely!
No.
And the girls won't give it back.
But if he's there give it to him an ,an an ,an , tell him, you don't want that sort of thing!
You've had too many of these sort of things and you don't want any more!
And if he says no  say thank you  we'll see about it!
Was it always a  man?
Who you go to?
Weights and Measures is it?
Well, stand in a Fair Trading Officer!
That's right  Fair Trading Officer.
You haven't had a fair deal  so  that's the man to go to!
Well,the Town Hall!
Same place.
No.
Is it?
Different place altogether!
For fair trading?
He's in Pembroke 
Well that's the Town Hall.
Not Millford not .
There's one for the area.
No, well it's er  the County Town Hall.
And the next time you go in he'll have bloody rubbish!
Not .
I'll bet you!
Oh.
He don't care!
Cos it's a market!
I know but you  but you see  if it came  to be something big and serious and it went into the newspaper  he would.
It's bad for business!
That's  down there innit?
I don't know.
The yellow thing, that's Steve's!
I'm sure it was them.
Ploughing up the road again!
Well I don't know what they're doing!
It  could be outside somebody's house.
Oh God  market day today.
It's open.
I aren't going to get down there!
I don't think!
About the nearest.
Yep.
.
I'm sick of seeing them all!
They're all dressed in the same.
Right, I shan't be long!
Into battle!
I wouldn't give a damn!
I already have .
There's that  
Oh my God , wait a minute!
Looks as though he's .
She got her silk coat done!
No, you're not going anyway!
I shall let you know.
Can I bring these back?
I bought them yesterday!
All three of them!
They're all,urgh!
Please.
Alright love?
.
Okay?
Yeah, thanks!
Ta!
Do you sell ham?
Linda!
Sorry!
Sorry!
Yeah!
Okay!
Mm mm mm mm .
Sorry about that love!
I didn't give you one on the end but I bought 
I said the thing is  that I pay sixty pence  for  five  well I said it costs me another sixty pence to come and change them!
And er  he said well  they are going off he said, but then
No, they've gone off!
the girls haven't the time to go through them!
Oh, indeed!
They'll blame somebody but, it weren't his problem!
Did you tell we wouldn't want any more?
Well these are certainly grapes!of course it's a  it's  it's a  but the orange season is getting over.
Yeah.
Anywhere else down here you'd like to go?
No.
I went and fetched them off the sheet counter.
I've come to change them!
There was three girls with the sheets!
I said I'd like to change these please.
I said I bought them yesterday  and 
Ooh 
they've gone off!
Well
Why was this all so  tightly packed?
Cos that's the bag o , that's rotting isn't it?
They don't open them !
Oh it's alright, yeah.
Doesn't look the same breed as these though.
Anything down here?
No.
And call in anywhere?
Nope.
Have a mooch?
No.
Got no money for mooching, no!
Good God!
Looking for a silk 
Ooh I say, there's a nice lot of flowers in that shop!
sa , silk.
Ooh!
I don't know what they were.
Mm.
Nothing down here?
Books.
No.
Go home.
I don't know where else you can go and look for nice fresh fruit.
Er well I
There is no fresh fruit about!
The er  the only place here in Millford that I would suggest is er  Fine Fare!
No, well people go and do their shopping in
Yeah, but a lot of that's packed!
Oh I don't know!
Mm.
Cor little-un sitting up, sleeping like that!
Ha ha ha mm mm mm mm  mm mm mm mm mm mm mm  mm mm mm mm mm .
Oh, got a !
Mm.
Woogh Everybody looks cold don't they?
Yeah, they do, yes.
Makes you shiver to think of them!
You remember that man that used to keep that  furniture shop  by Cockney ?
Yeah.
Where does he live now?
By the Post Office.
Oh!
Well he still lives in Eaking but it  he's got a shop up by the Post Office.
Oh yes.
Yes, now I remember.
Got a lot of stuff in there!
When I want a new chair I'll go and have a look at what he's got.
Nothing!
Hasn't he?
I don't think he does too much in the furniture!
Unless she's got an upstairs.
Maybe I haven't noticed the stairs there.
Well when  when we were there before he'd got a lot there!
There are two little rooms with things in, you know?
We never went upstairs.
No, I'm sure  that they'd got two little rooms on the ground floor and they were choc-a-block you could hardly get in!
One room.
Well, it seemed two  two to me!
You know, one opening into the other like a  you couldn't er  you couldn't move!
No, because that was by the Electric Board!
Oh!
I see the Gas Board  no.
Which is the one nearest Cockney's?
Electric.
Electric.
Well the people going in and out there as well.
They're paying their bills, they're  but there's nothing in there!
It's one 
Oh!
great big room  empty!
What is that, somebody ?
I don't know!
Didn't look!
Jehovah's!
Ha, ha, ha, now look at this woman!
Never looked my way!
And if you run her down, it's your bloody fault!
Here's another one look!
Look!
Never looks your way!
No place to park!
Here.
My  my .
He's in there!
Oh, Christ!!
But I don't think he's got an upstairs!
Oh.
I dunno.
And that's all.
Dental surgeon there now!
It used to be a bloody do-it-yourself shop!
Mm.
Oh !
That's it, by the .
All sorts of many stuff in there!
Lovely shop in there!
Oh oh!
This is one.
He's in that car too!
They're a bloody pest these kids!
Bikes are dangerous things aren't they?
Mm.
But no, nothing wrong with a bike.
It's the one that is riding it's a  the danger is!
Yeah, well that's it!
They whip 
Mm.
in and out and in and out, till 
Mm.
you don't know where they are!
In, In Holland  when we were there  motor cars were not allowed on the roads!
It was all push bikes!
Mm.
The main street, you know?
Course, there was a  at the far end of the street, a a red  long, long street it was!
Very long!
There was factories on it  and of course the workers keep coming in and out.
Look at the potatoes over there!
Mm.
Under plastic.
Look at these!
Countryside what?
Cheatering putting a new label up!
Mm.
Ahh Oh God, there's scaffolding all around here now!
Mm.
They've put the glass in that.
I wonder, perhaps it will be a little glass house?
I'd say the band , but there isn't room in it!
For the band to sit is there?
Not really.
Hello David!
Hello!
No, it's just somewhere to sit in and look out at the  en , er the ships and boats going by.
It's like a shelter.
Unless they mean to have a marina here are they?
There's a marina down in the docks!
Oh, I see.
Well perhaps they're going to have races or something if the
Mm.
the    Couldn't be wider .
The 
Mm.
water wouldn't be wide enough.
Mm.
Very strange!
What shops are they?
Aha.
Well  this blue van is Parry and Blockwell the garage!
This digging was here.
Mm.
Weren't it?
Well I'd have thought  I dunno!
By the church.
Yeah.
Mm.
Yes it was, wasn't it?
Go down the bottom of the street.
Yeah.
Hoh ell!
Let's go home!
Is there Internationals on today?
No idea!
Football?
No idea!
It's Friday today.
I know.
It's football, as a rule, on a Friday innit?
Oh it's Friday!
I keep thinking it's Saturday!
No, there's  is there?
She's  umbrella !
Trying to hold it  together !
Oh !
A lot of houses for sale!isn't there?
Yes I've er  that's what makes me wonder and they're  they talk about building more!
The chances are we won't be going!
They're building more for council houses.
Council tenants.
Homeless  families.
Well they could buy some of these and turn these into council  houses or flats or  something like that.
Well they could, but they won't!
Cos the people want too much for them!
Anything going on up here?
No, I don't think
Yep  all looks quiet.
Bet that's getting damp!
And it seems to be in a hole don't it?
It's down  it's below the road as 
Yes.
well!
Yeah.
I bet he's sorry he .
I bet he's sorry he started them!
then he got his money in the bank, he was getting interest on it!
Yeah.
And now deteriorating!
That's right.
Be nice when you'll be able to go and pick your own strawberries again!
Ah?
Be nice when you can go and pick your own strawberries again!
These daffs ave come out.
Yeah.
Mm ahhh 
I think it's going to be a wet afternoon.
It's sleety ooking  on the window look!
So I  
You watch the rain hitting the windows, it's like sleet!
Yeah , I think they said that er  you know  be  today.
Yeah!
Is that snow on the mountains?
Didn't see it.
Looked a bit white, it might be polythene.
No.
Can't see a mountain from here, we're on the top!
Oh !
Oh I see!
We ought to have bought some knitting wool.
Ay 
We ought to have bought some knitting wool.
And done something.
Well never mind, you got trousers to shorten.
And that  .
Well you might as well do it and press the two together.
Two together.
Ey ou got two to shorten now!
Oh God!
Sally says that  cardigan that I knit , that black one, she said tha i , it's lovely to wear she said!
It's heavy!
And it doesn't stretch and it  er er er  it looks, it feels good she says!
Aha!
What's that one?
You know that black one?
She wore it 
Oh yes.
with those black trousers?
Oh that cottony thing?
The cotton.
Mm.
It's lovely stuff to wear!
I said how much is it?
One eighty a ball she said!
Oh!
I said I was thinking of making a waistcoat or something out of one.
And she said it doesn't go bubbly.
The only, if anything  it might shrink a little.
Oh!
Not much.
But you'd have to hand wash it?
Yeah.
Does she ?
She boils hers and all!
All the white one.
Oh!
Yeah  but er
Bleaches them and all!
Does she hand wash her woollies?
Yeah.
So I might make a waistcoat.
A white one.
Mm.
For the summer.
Does it go very far?
No, it doesn't.
Not too far, but it's not bad!
Mm.
Look at him strutting along!
Is the wind blowing in do you think?
Blowing him along maybe!
Look at these houses!
Oh!
They've let that .
That's nice that one.
Yeah.
Nice and plain.
They're nice lit , little plain one like that  gives you plenty of scope  for a  creeper up the wall don't they?
I can't stand creepers on the walls!
I'm afraid it brings the caterpillars in!
Oh no they don't!
I dunno.
That's why I can't do it.
But some do.
It all depends on the variety and the
There's house, we've just passed it now on the  and it's er  a Montana Clematis.
Oh ey 
Well it's at , it's all in the bloody attic!
It's everywhere!
Oh God, I couldn't have it!
Gives me the creeps!
That's what I'd be scared of  otherwise I'd put one.
That's it!
Do you want it or not?
Mhm.
Mm mm mm mm .
Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm .
Ooh!
Now it's starting.
Come in the  afternoon.
Oh oh!
And they'll be looking for  not for me 
I don't expect!
Ooh that's better!
Get  in the corner !
Watch your wires!
Go on!
Come on!
Right.
That's it!
The er   here.
Do you think we're gonna have snow?
I hope not!
I'll tell you.
Not, then yeah..
I told you  
.
Oh I don't know!
I don't know!
How much?
Twenty.
You've had the two.
I think, yep.
Lovely!
Ta 
So what they gonna build behind you, another garage?
Is it?
Mhm.
Be alright  won't it?
Oh yeah, it's a big .
Could be you extending?other shop do you think?
It's all we know.
What shop's down there?
It's all the same one at the back.
Yeah but how many, how many times has it been a shop?
You don't seem to ge , er  often does it?
No    .
Yeah.
Tell you what'll end up there    
So you wanna extend this back, this is in the right place this!
Yeah.
Cos it  people come off the sites  or go to the corner shop, don't cross the road.
Yeah, if that was  where that garage is and all of this was clear it'd be great wouldn't it!
Yeah, you'd have your pull in as well!
.
Go on  think about it!
Ooh, you never give up !
Well this is it?
of the   
Oh the  the car people, it used to be!
We've already got 
Oh!
a garage  down the end there.
If it was you see, they'd be quick enough coming to tell you!
Ey Right  tara Thanks!
Snotty, drizzly, runny noses!
the parents' fault!
everything he asked me to.
He'll always, always, always do that!
Where does he get it from?
You!
No !
Always!
It's because you said to me!
Well I'll .
Cos I says, when they do, you better have all the bloody jokes about that!
No!
There's big guys 
in rugby.
It's there when I put
Put some  and some fingers
Mm?
I just wish you hadn't got the glasses .
It's for people
Is it to eat 
as well.
Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be 
Well you won't have bloody !
No!
But I don't go round  do I?
Running round, bumming round .
Ah?..
Who me?
Mm.
I can't really sit them together, they're not relations!
I've got fishing tomorrow.
I reckon it's not worth worrying about!
Let's just leave that for now!
You're right!
I know.
Change it round then she won't come next time!
That's right.
gonna like it!
You look more natural.
, cos we thought about getting a  .
.We'll just be , be about open.
Well, didn't you  tell them we're going out tonight separately  and then there's the   
well the thing is 
whatever they do to it now it's going to last for 
Two years.
two years innit?
I dunno cos it's had a new exhaust on it.
And a new battery!
God bless.
Who has?
I think 
New brakes!
she's tired!
Two, three new tyres on.
Two new cy , cylinder!
You can look after it now!
I wa , I'm gonna pick him up!
And not, come here!
If I get it through 
the M O T next February  .
Here!
Take that .
So that's just something .
You've had your money's worth out of the new stuff 
Well that's right!
then!
Yeah.
Grandfather clock.
More colder  is it?
That one.
That one?
Ding That'd get on 
my nerves every day!
How many is it?
Knives and forks.
It's not long enough!
Out here, in a minute.
Give them to me!
Yeah well  only talk about fishing, you see?
I'm gonna be fishing all around the boat!
No, not for long.
But I got a good one!
I've been getting getting out fish.
Don't   you can catch fish  
Well   I'm gonna wait for while!
I'm afraid I'm gonna wait until it , cos you gotta wait for all of the salmon to come  up river.
Rubbish!
Rubbish!
Because
If you catch a trout   you should catch it before 
Not with flies!
He's catching trout and he's 
No, I'm fly fishing!
catching salmon now!
No way !
No!
There's a   there's all that fish   
So you like fishing?
Especially fresh water.
Yeah!
Gotta go up the river as well!
Well where did he caught the fish?
Down the bottom by Liam's, that's where he caught them!
Down river, or was it up the river?
It's a river!
You can't fly fish here!
Yes 
I 
you can!
There's the bridges!
I said, well he said, it's two bridges.
Two bridges.
There's a road, you can't  cross them!
The bridge here with another  on?
How long is it ?
Where he goes fishing, it's, the bridge is up  
Not me!
No 
She was that !
I only do fly fishing!
As a rule.
Ah Jack does!
You ought to see it!
See the fish 
that we catch!
Carp for cooking.
Aspic's .
I don't .
going down the right?, five years old  down the river was the first time ever but just have to wait for him!
Oh!
Two   two traps  .
Get your hands off it!
No!
Ricky!
Come on!
Granddad's  , are you gonna eat it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes indeed!
Do you want me to fetch those ?
I go fly fishing.
You'll love fly fishing!
You wanna see it!
When you gonna take me then?
You cast out  you see them  you see that fish!
And your lines     and then you tease it!.
teasing it?
I'll do it twice, and then tease it!
Same to you!
I was talking about the club and  and that   she was there!
Then fishing   you know,..
?
I don't know what it was?
This is Bermondsey 
No.
just take the cover.
One of the lads had  nicked it  started cooking it!
So Scott !
.
Dad!
Scott and 
end up with bait!
bloody eating it!
Scott and , they caught a squid in Scotland   for bait now!
That's 
Yeah.
And then his mum goes, what's that in the fridge?
I said squid.
Get it out of here!
Oh  is it?
I've tried  brains.
Oh,my dad 
Yeah we heard that other .
I got more chance of catching a fish now cos we're going Saturday and Sunday!
That's good and it's a  what was this  name?
She were  you know, shaped in rings!
And she eat  she eat it!
That's !
!
Well it is only   I've eat it!
Oh!
No!
They weren't big enough.
dad, did you get that T V from Comet?
The town Comet?
Shall we  
You want all yo , all your stuff from Ben  in the
Bag.
I put all .
.
Oh!
Excuse me, don't say no!
It's like being in Switzerland, you pay your brother's !
You've had warm weather out here.
It needs to come down here.
I'll drop it down 
a peg.
On one television    so they're forty eight years old  and they've never been .
I would want to save one now.
I like it.
It's definitely  don't  
Did Ricky do this?
it's just that  er
she's been in .
Special offer  on Sunday.
Is a    three or four 
each  
Yeah.
Yeah.
And a hundred and fifty to cost .
Even after he comes in.
Come in!
Fourteen  forty 
No!
No!
Fourteen inch television, one in each room!
Excuse me!
They won't !
That's  slightly .
One hundred and eighty five?
Yeah  one eighty five   I paid seven hundred and twenty five pound!
Is that ?
Seven hundred and twenty five
It was my plan to get one though.
But, it's er  it's  
It's a marvellous thing!
They are !
Yeah, but that's , mine had some
And now they're telling you, you got the video  aren't they?
And they'll give you  a one year  warrantee  .
And then granddad's got any videos,.
.
it's  to buy that picture  a thou a thousand pounds!
That's what 
Rude, innit?
.
If you got .
And !
What?
Erm, Derek said , and Derek said that erm  that he now hoping you'd go down and stay when they get naughty pictures!
Yeah,!
!
But the thing is, if you fall out of bed you ain't gonna sleep!
Cos they  their trouble that I  I   and  away!
They says, well I    here we go, on the chair  count to ten!
Divide by  the number of   that's not .
That could be .
It's very full now!.
You count that.
It's still going.
Just don't change it !
don't say nothing about it!
Yes.
All your deck chairs..
.
For running people's ?
Yeah.
Yeah!
Oh yeah!
Well   but I don't see why!
Just cos  
Well Hayden says to me, if you go  either give me a ring, he said, and I .
Yeah, we'll have to do some work 
out .
Which is the  or the  fourteen inch television  colour telly  I know  because, the blokes let us down!
No, Hayden says if we go to Comet  cos he said, cos I said I bought my video at Comet and they were offering  twenty five per cent off  , twenty five per cent off  off the  at Comet  so that's about the third of the place .
Oh!
So he didn't ,
You get twenty five percent off.
We had fifty percent off the price you see!total.
Yeah.
What about after sales service?
Who Comet?
Well I asked Comet  fridge!
, that's what she means!
Comet do it.
Well  they're .
I mean  when I had  we got C D serviced.
And Don  
And I 
come and said sixty pound!
No, but it be beneficial  if it's Comet  and the receipt came back for our insurance from Comet  erm  
Dixons!
They're all, they're all same,
They're all the same.
Comet and 
Yes.
it's all owned by Kingfisher.
Kingfisher.
Because if we bought the fridge and the  at Comet  and collected the receipts back on the insurance .
He said they're all the same.
They're owned by Kingfisher ,.
We  we bought this fridge  from Comet  to keep the insurance  
I was     Oh it's still working, yes.
and he says that   
Well at least it's  pounds off .
Yeah, well mum's telly eleven .
And they said to her now, not to insure it .
When it's gone, it's now .
.
I tell you what you .
It's something like a   
How much did it cost last time?
I'm  them over.
Paul's mother's flipping well angry!
Last time he   that's my   .
Why does ?
He, he might say to me you can't use .
That's a load of nonsense!
But I said to them,take that cheque .
Oh  fucking hell !
.Because  mum's territory is there  you got a few people complained!
And it's .
And sure it was .
It's like I've got nothing to do!
The  .
It's all downstairs.
We've asked them to try.
They're here to celebrate the .
How long till you're back in your  now then mum?
You want to be sure of
Comet.
Ask  where's my dealer?
Where's the 
after sales service come from?
Oh, especially with a   .
Mm.
Why didn't he give you some Hotpoints?
But who'd buy it then?
That's where I've gotta go, yeah.
No you, you go down , off   and she said you can full holidays arranged daily, and we came  that was on the Tuesday, the Wednesday I had to phone them, done on Friday!
And they'll  
.
That erm
I'll never know!
.
I don't want that!
Oh yeah!
That's 
Yeah, and that's nice!
Claimed about  half of it.
Never heard of it!
Oh I know  
anytime  
She might have been   .
Or round?
Yeah.
on the Monday.
It takes four 
Ah?
or five   .
You can look!
Mm.
Hard cash!
That one's a daisy!
Innit beautiful!
if you've got a T V    remote control things      Once he'd said that he'd .
So you're lucky!, at least you know.
Cos there's one problem that  if you tape a programme    .
Mm.
And all I remember is the   then afterward  .
Well that's
You can't ask  
I suppose?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's three 
And they want 
forty the video innit?
We could've had a  two forty video tape, it said, two forty on it  and when we put it in weren't it?.
Said two forty on it, didn't it?
Two forty box!
Oh I shall .
You can buy one video from here.
Oh well  
How much does that cost?
Only one eighty.
How much did that cost ?
He just, he just 
I do , you put it in the big shop didn't you?
I put it in, okay
, over er  the pub at the end.
You put it in, you don't go onto, you don't pay .
Well we got so Phillips on the, on the sheet  and er  they're all    .
They're   he got all the videos from the States,in the States.
Sent over all these blooming  instructions for the video was all I needed!
And the American system
from Argentina
and er    just  you got the switch?
Yeah, you got the 
No.
switch here.
But his accommodation over there.
Unless you     .
Is that out there?
She's coming back in the .
cos she just took them off and then  and now  now she owes me something posh.
And now .
So where do you get your television teletext then?
all in the remote control  for the lot!.
We were looking at the  and not teletext.
Which is the smaller  any more.
No!
Not the one we looked at .
Well mine and nana's isn't teletext.
They're not all teletext?
No , course they're not!
Well it just shows 
The brand new ones.
twenty, twenty one inch 
and not all of them with this.
You can do it?
Are they
about
about three.
What?
Oh!
All you do  turn on the thing
No, you let him show me alright?
No just show
Yeah, alright then I won't move yet  
Where do I keep  
Mm.
But he does to me!
Oh right!
Mm.
Well I'm 
Yes.
put down .
Do you have to ?
Yeah, well   Ah but I  walked through  u
Can he go out?
Oh yeah.
He's going now!
Right!
before it be, be uncomfortable 
will it?
for him.
But I'm inclined to 
Yeah.
get a general impression right, cos 
Yes.
I'm finding something totally wrong with   and got shot of it  and then things have been 
Well actually he didn't, but he says 
worse  thinking he'd been to solicitors  but I'm trying to track down anybody!
Just trying to get some information.
Apparently  oh my God tha they're that much within the law.
Yeah, that's what we've been told.
They must have a legal section cos this is one of the biggest organisations,leisure group in Britain
Yeah.
for caravans.
They, they, they,they own  
They're going to clear themselves aren't they?
You clear you!
More than that!
Apparently
They're not going to
one man told me, he said 
well if you think you might get some money at the end of the season, he said, you may find that you'll be paying them at the end of the season!
I mean, what's the good of it?
Yeah, you see!
Well we may as well have got that money and thrown it down the toilet!
Gone straight in the bin!
Well that's right!
Straight away this year, you get a list through  now, do you want winter cleaning done, curtains cleaned,
Yeah.
carpets cleaned, upholstery cleaned?
Or outside valet, do you want the underneath painted with grease and everything?
I say we did have it done.
By the time you add all that up  if you're not local.
All your profit's gone!
You'll  you will end up paying them!
Yeah.
Yes.
And then we paid for a winter clean.
And it's filthy!
Mm.
I had to go down there twice 
To get it done!
Okay?
Because the windows were filthy!
Twice, that we argued  .
Well, well  you came here didn't you when the curtains hadn't been
Jump down then Phillip!
And when I spoke to Mr , I said well  if I was renting a caravan and went to see it and it was dirty like that, I wouldn't want to take it on!
And, I said surely you have somebody who goes round and checks them before they're let?
No, he said!
So what they do is, apparently they wait for somebody to complain
Yeah.
and then they look at the caravan!
Do they?
That's somebody who comes up to rent it!
So I said and in that case then  probably  you move them into another caravan?
Oh no, we clean it and  they go into it!
I said, you mean to say people wait around while you clean the caravan?
I don't believe it!
You're alright , you're alright for your holiday, find a caravan dirty, you've gotta complain before it gets cleaned!
Ha!
People will !
They can complain to the Tourist Board.
to be done when he was he.
Should be bloody licensed!
You can did you say?
You can.
You can't!
Well I shouldn't think so because 
Mum!
they're not gonna want to know!
They don't belong there.
Yeah.
and you can't complain to th , the Chamber of Commerce because  if they show this up too much 
Temby's  gonna lose a lot of trade!
I don't want  
Yeah.
Mm.
I mean 
They have their, their   
I said to him we've been conned!
I said we've been stitched up!
That's how I look at it!
I was furious last week!
Mm, so I ju , I was just trying to find, but you see, there again you're new people, we found new people last week didn't we.
Yeah.
He wasn't happy  that man.
He bought a big caravan, he was very unhappy!
There we are!
The way they do 
No, but these caravans
Should you carry on?
I don't know, is it here or over there?.
So you see, this is only way you can  them!
Get to a situation where you've had a caravan before  and to make any money to pay, you've then got to  buy another caravan  to subsidise that one  and you seem to be  it's sort of 
like a chain all time.
Mm.
Yeah.
And the profit you've had from one is paying the expense of the other!
Tha , if you're lucky!
Mm.
Yeah.
I mean we heard some horrendous stories last week, walking round didn't we?
Yeah, we did.
Cor talk about make your curl!
Dreadful!
Mm.
So  as I say, but I'm just resigned to it!
So what would you have to do now then?
Take your caravan off?
We can't!
Not allowed to move it!
We co , I mean, what do you do?
You lose the money you've paid for the site!
Cos you can't take the site!
Paid for the site!
Plus the value of a brand new caravan!, they check!
A lot of people buy these on !
Mm.
Just pay cash 
Mum!
for them.
What darling?
In the end we're gonna  out.
Can we  ?
We feel
Mm?
we're gonna lose 
not only  any money that we get back on it, but we lose  the letting 
money
Mm.
we lose the investment!
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm.
We lose the
Mm.
out of the capital!
You see?
That's not a business venture!
Well it is for them!
That's right!
For them it is , yeah it's a good one for them!
They're too big to fight, that's the trouble isn't it?
Are they?
That's what everybody says!
I see, I'm, I  can't accept that, there's gotta be a way 
No!
round it!
No, I'm afraid not!
I mean I don't care!
I've, I've threatened him!
I will be outside with a placard!
Do not buy a caravan on Field Park!
I've threatened him, that's what I'm going to do!
of the er erm  .
I've seen it done last week,.
Throw a brick through his windows!
There's been nothing done!
I'd love to do it to him!
Well I've got to .
Hang on!
We don't know what that .
pain!
Alright!
, was you was down here when I washed the caravan?
No.
No, it was dark haired boy.
Was it?
I know about your microwave.
Ha?
I know about your microwave.
I used 
What?
I used to know your husband,.
Yeah?
.
Was he pissed?
Yeah.
What it 
See what 
is now  When I drop this one round I'll tell you about then.
Yes.
Okay?
Er
Will we have hot water?
Well
Don't say no, cos I'm going home!
Er
You can  What it is, there's new laws 
That's right.
coming out now, it's no , nothing to do with us.
There shouldn't be any water heaters in bathrooms, okay?
Right?
Now  we're gonna get it moved  okay?
You can use it, but it's at your own  risk, alright?
Oh that's  
Well that's too  
Oh my God now !
Well what  what happened?
What are we 
sure's gonna happen as far as ?
Well what it is  you've used it all last year haven't you?
Right?
All you wanna  to do is the ventilation on it.
Do you?
Okay?
Er
Oh .
All, all our vans now are  are to be re-flued.
Yeah.
Are you with me?
Yeah, cos we saw one in that 
Oh that's right.
kitchen .
That's right.
But what it is  er  they've been like that for years, like, in the bathrooms 
To daddy.
and all!
You know, I mean  all it is  like I say, it's  I'd use it, put it that way.
Right 
Yeah.
I'd use it.
Er, I would not have worries about it.
But if something went wrong then do you ?
Well all I do 
Come on!
well  I suppose it could be done.
It would?
Well all it is,
is er  the fumes 
Mum!
given off from it.
Are you with me?
Yeah.
Like say, if you were in there like and you've got a closed door
Mummy,
there could be a build of fumes.
When we going?
Do you see what I mean?
Yeah.
You know, that, that's the only thing  er 
Alright.
what it's about, like.
Yeah.
You know?
It's not dangerous or anything, like, it's not gonna blow up or anything like that!
It's just a carbon monoxide
Yeah but as far as it's sa 
Enough to kill you!
Yeah, but as far as it's B S standards go, if it's not B S standard approved 
No.
that's the insurance on the 
No, well  
boiler.
That's right.
Yeah.
So then 
are you telling me that these people are renting this place out?
No, you can't rent it out until it's done you see?
So when was that  when was that  done?
This week.
We come in in here last week!
People were here last week then?
Well I don't know that.
Who, who put them in there?
Town Park?
Yeah.
Who's the, who's, who's, who's 
the boss up here today?
Yes, old age pensioners they were!
I don't believe they were mind!
Because the  
I don't think there was anyone in here this week!
still on the .
I don't think there was anyone in here 
Should be here.
this week!
Two people.
Who's, who's, who, who's, who's the boss today up there?
Well you wanna see er  David .
David ?
Yeah.
And he's there now is he?
Yeah.
Okay.
Have a word with him.
But that's what it is.
I can't help with nothing else .
Well that
said erm  supposed to use it like, yeah.
As far as the leg , as far as getting the  the flue sorted out in this, how long do you reckon it'll take?
What do you say now?
Er
I know what!
Well, like I said, one of his contractors are going out to , like.
Yeah.
That's why I like to know how  when they're gonna do it like.
So this caravan can't be rented out until it's sorted out, like?
That's right.
Yeah.
And you don't know how long it's gonna be?
Er  I don't.
I don't know how long 
it's gonna be, you know what I mean, I just 
So  who covers the loss on the caravan and on the rental?
that's not my
So it's Dave  again?
that's not my place!
Listen, you could
He's the General Manager, like.
Yeah that's
Debbie should of come down .
Yeah.
But er  that's, that's the reason for it like, you know?
Well why  what did you say then?
We came down to wash the caravan 
Yes.
Yeah.
And on the windows was the  had all been serviced.
Yeah.
And that  blue thing now has gone on since!
Tha , with red signs of all, across it!
Yeah  oh.
Well they're doing them all now, for service 
Now, we were  washing 
you know?
washing the caravan on the Sunday
Yeah.
and people were to come in here on the Tuesday.
Oh, well I I thought, I don't know .
A bus load er a  four, three or four bus loads from
Lancashire somewhere.
Lancashire or North of England somewhere.
Saying there was, what say?
Bus loads?
Three or four bus  three or four bus loads of .
Old age pensioners!
Pensioners!
Last week?
So they said!
That's what they told us!
Cos I said there's no way I'd sleep in it myself!
Cos it was too damp!
Well we never had any   last week!
Well somebody said it  .
I I  I might, I might be wrong 
like!
You know .
Well that's what they said!
I never see   !
You'll see a bus up there won't you?
Cos I'll .
We're learning  
Are you , are you sure it was this week, it was supposed to be?
No , not next week?
Last week, cos I had to get it all!
I had to have the bedding in here.
Mum , can I ?
You see the, the boy 
I mean 
that, that just got out?
Yeah.
He, it's his weeks holiday and he was going to come down 
Yeah.
here for the week.
Yeah.
Now, there's no water here!
Yeah.
Well, no hot water !
Well that's what they told us,
Yeah.
and that's why we've
Well that's  like I say, with the 
We must have the caravan finished!
the thermostat.
Yeah, like I said  with the actual water heater there, it's been, there's been water heaters in caravans like that for years!
When we to 
You know what I mean?
We only had this at the end of the 
Yeah.
summer.
And we've had trouble with it 
Yeah.
all the time!
Yeah.
But er  like I said, the fluing part of it, is, is out of our hands.
It's not 
Yeah.
it's not us who's put that on.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
The what, pardon?
The actual water heater, the re-flueing of it.
Oh!
Oh!
You know, the, the
The gas people.
it's  yeah the gas council and all, like, these new bloody laws they've bought in like!
That's right.
Mm.
That's why you can see they've all had them
Yeah.
they've had to extend the pipes  all this and that like, you know?
Yeah.
But it's down to be getting moved.
You know what I mean?
But that's all it is, because it's in a confined space  and with a shower going they're worried about fumes and all like, you know, the carbon monoxide, like, you know?
Mm.
Yeah.
But er  put it this way, I've been on courses, like I wouldn't  I use it.
You know what I mean?
Mm.
Cos er  like I say, if I'd had a window open or so you know what I mean?
That's right..
And all  if it's a little nippy you .
is it?
But I said, that they've been in bathrooms for years like!
You know they  and smaller bathrooms than that like!
Oh, well I don't know what to do!
But like I said, it  it's just, it's gonna get moved like, no cost to you like, you know what I mean?
It's er 
Yeah.
But an advantage to them!
Is that what you mean?
But if something went wrong then, this caravan was burnt  that's the end of it!
They  might just take those down.
Well i , cos the co , the insurance wouldn't cover it?
Cos they have got these records   will have these records.
No, you'll have a certificate then, and all, saying that the caravan covered, it'll be tested every year then.
So it isn't going to be used this week?
But, no
You know?
not this week.
No, not this week.
So we shall lose our insurance?
like that, yeah.
innit?
See that man and woman that , yeah?
Did you see these people in there?
What people?
A man and a woman.
There was two people sitting there.
They've just gone out.
No.
After you came.
Well they've, they bought a  a caravan down here, a brand new one!
Yeah.
And they bought it last summer  and they've had trouble ever since!
And they're going around asking people what !
What's up with their's then?
Well they've had to move the caravan !
It was dirty and damp and  !
They're going round the caravans   .
Ay 
he hasn't come .
Oh!
Here Ricky!
Yeah.
I'd like one of your crisps.
Any one would think that you were tired all day!
Now we .
And you weren't told there was gonna be ?
No.
What the hell are they talking about?
Nothing!
We knew that they were testing them, and checking it over  and bringing it up to standard, but we didn't know anything about it other than that!
Only .
You  take one, that's your one.
Lovely!
Well it wasn't me anyway, I don't know!
Oh Mark'll be fuming that's for sure!
Can he do ?
No.
But what's in it for me?
.Ooh ooh!
How do you do it??
Alright?
Yeah.
Well I don't know what to do now?
I'll tell you what to do.
Do you?
Here without a damn thing, you can't use it can you?
What do you think?
you know?
They never asked me 
if they could  or the flue in so it's 
That's right, say it like that!
never been  repaired.
neglecting the .
Well having said, what, what is it all about?
It's because  the  no, no water heater should be in the bathrooms!
So where's that gonna go then?
Well it must either go in the kitchen or in the cupboard somewhere, but you know?
That's what they've er  put it to.
what you said to me.
Oh yeah.
Oh well we'll have to move won't we?
Yeah.
It's working, like gas-wise, like I say, it is  it's virtually, it's just the ventilation clearing out the  the fumes  which are given 
Mm.
off from it.
Do you see what I mean?
Well it is  isn't there a, there's a chimney above there isn't there?
Yeah.
That's right, yeah, but  but now  like I said, you're gonna have to , to have your certain pipes.
Like, have you seen them all going round?
They got long poles on the back step.
Will it'll be longer than that ?
No  cos they haven't done this one  because it shouldn't be in here!
Even in the fire?
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah, I mean, it shouldn't be in here, like, that's why they haven't  that's why they've put it there.
That's why they hung on the to the shipment cos these aren't supposed to be in  the bathrooms.
Right.
You know what I mean.
You know?
The 
Alright 
I think there'll be a lot of people who won't move off  to be honest!
They won't do?
, cos they won't er  go to the cost of them.
But, like I say, we're covering that, like.
You know what I mean?
Hoh 
He's bloody !
He didn't know.
He doesn't know, he's the only one I can think of.
He , he's, he's not in a position to say whether he knows or not.
He says he doesn't know!
Oh!
No, well I  
It's nothing to do with him!
It's not his department.
But he said there is a gang going round, and some are putting the chimneys on  and the others are going in and doing the flues.
And he said, it looks as though they've put the chimney on and found that the flue is the ba the boiler's in the bathroom, so they've had to come down here.
Said because it shouldn't have a chimney on it!
But he said, I don't know it's no , nothing to do with me!
It's the 
No.
Bri it's the British Gas that's doing it!
Oh  well that's right he's gotta blame somebody!
But he said, I would do it because I know, I've worked for the Gas board!
Mm.
I would know how to handle it.
I said, well there's one thing certain, I can't!
Perhaps , pay good money for it!
You said somebody wanted to know about .
Mum!
No, it, it,
Mum!
and she's going round, she's gonna try and take them to court!
So she should!
It's bis , I think they mean business people!
.And she's going  she got out papers and pencil!
Taking names and addresses who'll back her up!
Mum,.
You could see through the window.
And the rain comes 
in when you open the door!
Blimey!
And she said  and he said, well they told  didn't they?
Got three bus loads, three or four bus loads of people!
Yes of old age pensioners coming down!
She said , they hadn't!
She said!
And they're in 
We haven't had anybody  have we?
Mum, will daddy be here?
Why doesn't daddy come?
Granddad.
He'll bloody come next week.
Next time.
Why?
Cos I'll make him!
We let him out .
No, I've been meaning to.
Come on Mark!
See you later!
Mark'll go bananas I expect!
Well now how long have they known you were going to rent a caravan?
Well it's been booked for three or four weeks hasn't it?
Ooh , more than that!
on the bed.
I was taking a long time!
What?
They're supposed to 
Ha!
Ha!
to pay people  to come and clean the caravan out at the weekend.
No, I mean this flue thing should of been .
The caravan's been cleaned!
Well you says they hadn't even washed the curtains!
I'll leave it till next week.
What?
I'll leave it till next week!
You said they hadn't washed the curtains!
They're not washing the curtains, they're putting new ones in!
Yes, well that's their er  stipulations and  that's  what they're supposed to do once a year!
It hasn't been done has it?
No, they're not!
Danny's paid for new curtains to go up!
Yes, I know!
But they haven't done it!
Mum!
No!
So that's another twenty, thirty, forty, fifty pound in their pocket!
No, cos they're doing it!
will you shut up and wait!
Why?
That's why!
was closed?
Yes  yes, they're not opening till next week are they?
Next week, is it warmer?
Mum  !
You've just had !
So next time you come down  it will be open and then you'll be able to go.
Oh, poor dolly!
What can I do first?
I think ours and all will be going home.
Going home  minute of the day!
No I bloody haven't!
I kept the !
And that woman!!
I went out to check the date on the  and to turn the place over.
Gees I was shocked!
Brand new!
She owned it!
Mm, yeah she had a  with her!
And I couldn't wait you see.
Well I'd have had it all on tape!
Have you gotta ?
Have you?
No, you'll have to get in touch.
I'll just pack things all up shall I?
Ha?
What about these !
Diamonds 
What are they?
rubies, no, and pearls 
Emeralds are they?
emeralds there!
Yeah, and a ruby on the other!
You found the good bit !
Mm.
Well wait and see what er  Mark has got to say.
Mm  .
laying properly.
Aha?
No.
Let Danny do it.
That's them gone!
What's ?
Was that them?
I don't know!
No it wasn't.
Some
Who 
No 
was it?
.
So what did she say to you when she went?
She said  .
This woman and man.
Oh she said we'll make enquiries she said.
She was going on about the grass they've left on the
Do you think I could leave it just there?
But she was in a frenzy you could see that!
Yeah, she was a bit!
She's looking for somebody to back her up!
Mm.
And that's why I cannot get involved.
But we're gonna do it and she says she hadn't  as yet!
That's what she said.
Mm.
.
I don't think she said she's doing extra!
She says you'll have the bill for this!
Yeah.
A man just stated it!
That we're taking responsibility  we'll be moving out!
We won't get paid for it!
We wanted to charge them!
I don't know anything them see.
It might be that they're in under  promotions team.
Their only parking!
I see us having to 
Perhaps 
last year.
perhaps erm  perhaps they're only parking  their caravan on the  .
And only letting it to friends and I suggest 
Mm.
their grandson.
But er  somebody was in and left it all filthy and mouldy and  what for!
Oh!
Yes?
Had the cleaner gone in  it?
I don't know .
I don't think so, no.
How?
Because er, I've seen it and dirty and that.
And they're bloody cooker's filthy!
It's true!
I have seen it.
I don't think it's really clean, and they charge you for it!
Of course they do!
They're out to get all they can out of them!
Mm.
As he says  it, it's the biggest holiday 
And 
company in Britain  and he said er, they just keep under  their 
Yeah.
legal limit!
He said.
You can't get them to admit that.
And, and they'll keep all the profits that they can!
They're not gonna let you get away with a lot!
You know, such as new curtains!
They try to bother  them.
And I dare say, like these he said they  they've paid for their caravan, cash!
So that's close to ten thousand pounds!
And they thought it was an investment!
Where as now they 
find it had been better for them to have left their in the bank!
Didn't say it so many words, but that's what he meant!
And an investment on ten thousand's about twenty pound a week!
So it's a lot of money to , I would think.
Perhaps he can
She said thought, she'll only only let it out about six or eight times through the year!
Well they haven't got total control over letting it!
.
No.
Perhaps they'll go.
Mark is making his will  isn't he?
Ah a good !
Oh she's left her dolly in there!
Ooh God, Sally was taking her out!
Who's key are all those?
Dunno,.
I dunno!
Oh, she's, she coming back, look, there's her book and her pencil.
Mark.
Well Sally was right anyway.
This is the caravan  here.
Sally will take it off, Mark's   .
I don't know what this is.
Oh!
I know she bought any  there's her roller skates!
Oh yeah.
Oh well, I'm off!
I know, he was going into the office!
Why?
I can't find   he's not in there  in reception?
Perhaps he's gone to shops?
I don't know which way he's gone then.
What's  surname?
erm  No.
?
Dunno!
Perhaps you ought to look for a phoney.
In the phone book see if there's any there?
I dunno!
Then we can ring them, see what happens.
When we get home then.
Yes.
But what if 
Oh look!
Silly isn't he!
What about her doll and things?
I'll bring everything home if I'm going home.
Tara 
She said they're getting money for nothing!
Hey?
!
Now we'll go and find mum.
Mm.
I can't remember, the man he said  .
Keep it on 
Ooh!
enough will be used at  from it.
Oh!and all do you think?
What kind is it?
A recording?
Yeah, a Walkman.
It's recording everything.
You put the headphones on and you can listen to your choir!
Which is far easier than the one you were using.
Mm.
Oh, you put one of them in!
Well it's going round like hell, any how!
Well yeah, it's taping your voice!
Oh!
Oh, I hope it heard something nice !
Yes, well they're listening  for slang !
Oh!
Oh my God!
I said to her check the phone boxes and Penny's in there phoning  Danny and , and bloody Lorna!
Mm.
I re , I er  I co , heard Sally
And  down there 
counting 
phoning them.
but I didn't know  who it was  and I thought, God, has Danny arrived!
He does sound, that woman!
Can't understand her!
Oh yes 
She's out!
I can!
She's in piling a bloody list!
Yeah, I'm, I, I can't 
And she's got it down  where do 
I can't 
you come from?
Your name?
I thought  when I was looking at her talking  and I thought, you're a school mistress.
I wouldn't say that, I'd have said  , she's a landlady.
And this is extra.
Oh I would have said she was a  school mistress.
And her  her  bed and breakfast is 
Was a school mistress!
bed and breakfast is er  paying  keeping this caravan.
No, I would say that they were 
And it's not 
retired and he's had a good job in his time.
And, and this was a little 
Well I feel he's 
But I said 
to him.
No.
I said to him  er that er  it was an extra  and he said that was the object of it.
Helps the pension.
You know?
He didn't say it in so many words, but
Mm.
It was an investment, that's what I said.
Mm.
He said yes.
So I shouldn't be surprised, they're both retired  and, and er   pension.
She said they've had  they've had a couple of days out here trekking, trying to catch people!
Their pension is  their pension and their bit of income  keeps them, and that's all sort of thing, in a little bit of luxury.
He  she's looking for tenants!
No.
How, I  did you find it clean?
Mm.
You know, are you happy with er  arrangements 
then?
What did you think of cleanliness and
Oh well of course that 
And then perhaps she'll take their names and addresses!
Yes.
And the date see, Mrs so and so was in that caravan on such and such date!
If ever it came to court!
Cos he said  somebody's got to bring them down!
Mm.
And he said, we're disgusted with our caravan!
Yes.
Well of course, that might be a private !
Well that's what I would say about this  if this was new I wouldn't let people go in!
Theirs might be a private caravan on the site, and le , like Jackie's.
And letting it as private.
See, Jackie won't let anybody in her caravan.
But she said  they've let it to people and they've just wrecked the inside of it!
Everything she said!
It's a total mess!
And it's a brand new last July we've had it, she said!
Mm.
And it's filthy !
Mm.
And she said that everything was mouldy  in er  you know the  even the curtains were mildew!
And how did she put salt round?
Because this is a hell of a lot damper today  than what it was when I had the salt about you.
you  but er  some people  
Course not!
Yes.
Well I'd never heard of salt being put down before!
But she  yes, she told me that in all, in the shop.
In the reception.
She said, put it 
Yeah, well 
down.
yeah, these might tell you but  I always heard that salt was damp!
Yeah but it attracts the 
The 
water in 
the 
the air, into the salt!
and of course, once it's in the salt, it's steams!
Well it's only now it feels like this!
It was not like this when we were down here washing it.
Well that's common sense when you think about it isn't it?
You put, you put a drop of water on it  you put er  a bowl of salt  and  that will go down  eventually!
Mm.
If the air is damp.
It's collected the water .
Once that's damp, that's rising the steam!
So how else do you keep it dry?
She said, straight to me now!
I said that caravan is soaking wet, I said!
The mattresses!
mm.
And she said er  well it does take time for them to dry out doesn't it, she said?
But I, there was people in it last week!
Yes I know, she said!
Well if she's covering
I said well there's no way I  
she is paid to cover the boss!
There's no way I'd of slept in it, I said and not  I wouldn't of done it!
Let alone, old age pensioners, I said!
And you know  we've been to a few caravans
Go in that end bedroom and feel the bed!
that feel a bit, caravans that we used to go to were like this chalet.
The chalets we used to go to  Mrs er  I can't remember her name now!
But her boys used to run steam roller outside middle house and I used to take them in.
She used to see  that the beds were aired.
She did see to them!
She put oil heaters  in the caravan  and she kept the  the mattresses in her bungalow!
She'd only got about eight caravans then.
And  then we went in and had a caravan  somewhere up by Aberystwyth, Ginnie and me, and you kids.
That was an old farmer's caravan weren't 
Yes.
it?
But it wasn't too, that was too damp to sleep on!
who won the bloody war,roof up weren't it !
There wasn't, there wasn't a cup and saucer each!
Remember?
Mm.
And these are no better!
I mean, caravans are caravans, call them what you like!
Only one saucepan we had!
And it was stew everyday if we didn't go out for dinner!
Ah!
And you  
Remember that cup of tea?
Remember that cup of tea   cos the water gave out on us at one stage!
Yeah, we had to walk across the bloody fields for water  !
And milk.
Yes, friendly  woman at the farm!
We should have had a time, we'd of had to go home!
Well who's caravan was it?
Oh somebody who's lived er  out  Gloucester !
Yes I know!
Perhaps that's where Aunty Ginnie got her 
But er 
bug from !
But erm
the  people at the farm  they were supposed to seen   you know, for her?
She made out that she was paying at the farm to  clean it.
Did you tell them that in the farm.
Well Ginnie did!
Got her to do the dirty work for   for free !
Well  same when we went and found them boys in it!
Oh he's walking back home in temper now !
Well it was a job to get in here  just after !
And now you're on the staff!
Oh shush here's 
Now he 
somebody!
No, he's got another one!
No.
Yeah , they got a job to get him back!
Well it's clean here is it?
People have 
Yes.
left it clean?
They haven't been here!
There's been nobody here!
Come and have a look!
Cos everything is, as I left it!
How long do I keep that for?
Somebody else been here,.
This water heater is not to be used as it failed to reach the er  oh well I  now!
Wait, and I'll go and find out!
That's for the bed  er  television and the microwave.
This  and the water heater.
And ask her about the water heater cos if I can't take a shower I will stink!
Funny way of running business any how!
Look at him with the bloody roll in the window!
Oh .
But er, Danny says that they said that they were
People had been in!
overflowing!
Yes I know, but he  he said people are in last week!
But that's what  
They're overflowing with bookings for the summer!
Oh!
And now?
Yeah, cos they could have three times as many caravans!
By June  they'd let them go!
They're overflowing with them!
Not now!
Of course, you see, it's you that's using the caravan this week so they can come here  they  can they?
No.
Somebody comes quick and wants the caravan  they're supposed to be there ready!
Oh!
Ooh the sun is warm!
Can you feel it?
Is it the sun  or is it this  heater ?
You can just see 
Oh I dunno, maybe 
the sun!
maybe, maybe, maybe!
Oh, and he's taking Tarzan for a walk!
Is that Sally?.
Mm?
Who's with her?
it's somebody else!
Right!
Go and see her!
I dunno.
Ha?
I dunno.
What do you think,?
Now  erm Mrs  and I  down the caravan park.
Right.
Yeah, they were .
But people were in last week!
Mm.
Erm,.
What?
Cos I came down!
And I  cos I was amazed they told me about this salt   rubbish!
So I did it  and bowls are full of water!
I was shocked!
And then, I thought well I gosh this caravan isn't   is it because the salt had gone?
I i , it could be because it feels quite cold and damp .
Anyway  there's er  there's no !
There's no television in there!
Right.
There's  and there's a big sign on the water heater  it's not to be used!
Right..
And I said we are going back home!
Er  would you 
Yeah.
er  
Yes, and I will  from the .
Yeah  ?
Yeah.
Right, I'll go and get the .
And I said there's a
Did you tell him, as he's threatened to come home?
down there now.
She said she's trying to find it.
Suppose we  better go back home!
Going in the shop first.
Why is it?
She's got no excuse!
I'll go down there first.
To tell them not to mess about with that water heater!
Ohhh She didn't know!
I said well when I was here last  that sign wasn't on the  thing then!
Don't forget!
And I'll put them back in  the back .
Is that the door key?
Who's in the toilet?
Is ?
He's gone in there.
I'll take those out the window.
What?
What?
Co they're coming down now.
Er  I said, that the sign on the washing thing washing thing  wasn't there last.
Darren put the microwave into store.
And the telly is in store, and they'll be bringing that right now.
Right, what about the  what about the water heater?
The microwave's with .
He took the microwave!
No , darling, because  it just stays there.
Yeah, right  what about the water heater?
That's the more important thing!
She said, she didn't know but she getting somebody down here now!
So we still don't know whether that's gonna be operational!
Because, according to B S standards
Yes.
that should be ripped off the wall, like!
Right!
Well I don't know because they've put new flues and everything on these fires.
I don't know!
And she's getting somebody down now!
Oh.
So I haven't been to the shop yet.
Oh!
As long as they come down in the next twenty minutes!
Otherwise I'll go up there!
It was alright last season!
Yeah!
She doesn't understand it herself!
I said  we were here  doing the caravan, it wasn't there then!
Somebody's been in!
Somebody did, they was  there was two people in here  last week!
What to  rented it?
Yeah.
Two old age pensioners.
They're supposed to be  !
In the end,!
What, so these two people have been in here, staying here, no television, no microwave?
Yeah!
Two old age pensioners!
Are they ripping them off then?
The old age pensioners are paying for a caravan  including these, you know, facilities, and the people don't get them!
I don't know!
But that's what she told me!
I'll see about mic , microwave in the house.
No, it isn't!
Mum!
, what's on the bloody thing there?
The bur , the blue thing?
Can you read it from the inside?
I'll go outside 
Mum!
and see it.
Yeah.
Water heater flue tested, failed!
Well that's a big job!
Mummy!
Well it's up to them put it right!
Mummy!
Yeah but what I'm saying is  that's my week up the spout like, innit?
Mummy!
Er  well how much  
Oh by the way, Sally's got the shopping.
be here?
Oh we'll wonder shall we !
Oh well  come round and tell us!
They  they should have been, they, if they failed 
Come on!
it, they should have reported it to you!
That's what  
Only getting cold water!.
See .
I can't do any more than that!
I'm not taking it out on you!
I'll take it out on them!
I just burnt twenty quid on food and if I stay here to eat it  I'll take it out on them!
You, you're paying you're paying us 
Ooh look at that!
a lot of money
Ooh!
for them to give you this kind of service!
Your mirror's not back either!
No!
A man stole it!
A man called Mark!
No!
Have you tried lighting that boiler then?
No.
light it!
What if it blows?
And I'll touch it later when  let them do it!
Ha !
Ah?
That lights working.
She said it's electric and gas.
I said, yes, we've lit the fire in the bedroom!
Course it's electric, you put the fridge on before!
And I said I put the fridge on.
bulbs are .
And I said when we went in, I went in to show Mark now, but I said I can, you can do it myself.
I was going in  I was gonna ask somebody to come down and show us how to light the boiler.
And I said there's a big blue sign across it, not to use it!
Do not use!
I said to her,that!
Mum!
I said well it's there, I said!
And we haven't touched the !
Mummy,, watch me!
Not very soft!!
I better show off them big !
Do !
Still wobbly innit?
We'll  we'll lend you  which says only .
It's  Do you think they'll be long?
Not long, why?
Why is the man going to come here?
It's in the car!.
In the car.
Go on then!
Come back here!
But then I wished they were a bit later!
Come out here!
Go on!
Go and !
I'll hide from .
Mm.
Shall I?
Quick!
Yes, go and hide!
Why?
I'll start.
We're going to  bloody  
The night 
bad week  a, a week's in 
Darren  put the microwave into store!!
Why didn't he leave it alone,?
Switched off.
That's it!
And you've got it at home really.
It was in store!
You've got it at home!
So it's at home?
Put it in store, so he's finding another!
Right!
Said he  
Mum!
the water now!
For Christ's sake!
Mum!
Have you thought about 
Why?
going to that fair yet?
No, cos we  
So you're basically 
So what you're saying is you're
No  it doesn't matter!
Oh God!
I'm gonna fetch my mother in!
For God's sake!
Right!
Right!!
Are you coming to sit in?
I don't know where, when they'll come!
So you've got to wait?
We'll have to!
We'll have to get your bags all in there  if we're not stopping, we can't stop!
There's a great big thing on the front  go home!
.Leave your bag in the car mum.
Oh!
We'll have to stay here .
There's nobody at the house.
.
Course you can!
What?
What's all this?
but now they've put it  .
All in there.
Plenty of room for the chair.
Mm?
Room was just alright for the .
They knew you were working yesterday!
What is ?
on there.
are my .
Ooh!
Look at me!
Look at me!
I'm in here!
Alright.
I'm gonna get the bed!
Oh crafty!
Mind your fingers!
.
Well I shall make the beds anyway.
Has anyone not got a map here?
Yeah.
Is it up there?
I don't know!
Why don't you ?
Now, who got the cigarettes?
Oh, some of them are outside, yes.
And in ten minutes if they ain't down here, I'm going back up there!
What you going back up there for?
To get them to remember you.
I'll walk up there and he'll be coming back down, he'll give me a lift back down.
This is the bit where mama says I'm just like Susan , I'll have a go at it, I'll demand it!
Susan says she does it, but she doesn't really do it!
Yeah well, where as I will then!
Ah  shut up for half an hour now will you?
Erm 
Half an hour!
Half an hour!
The er  the gas stoves doesn't!
The gas is on!
Oh, it's on?
Oh I can see now, yes!
But without that heater they've got no hot water, no nothing!
No.
Have they?
So how could they let it out to
Yeah, that's what Paul said!
Old age pensioners?
But it wasn't here!
It wasn't on then!
No, I've er, I, I, think it happened since.
And you see er  it's one of those things that can wait.
But all were these were ta er  all these were tested.
Well Dave's done it!
Before we came down here to clean the caravan.
Cos the man said to me, look you've got a new flue on!
And that one over there has as well!
Well that fail sign  wasn't on the caravan  when we was doing that axle  underneath.
No, because
They were saying what  
The blue one was on  saying it had been tested!
That's not to say it failed!
No.
Oh!
Well I come down 
the week after that.
There's a  on then!
Children to sit on!
Look!
I don't!
Here they are then!
I don't why it's for children 
to sit on it!
Not  or potatoes.
Those pretty earrings you got!
Where did you get those from?
Susan gave them to me .
Susan did!
Mm.
Oh!
Well come and let me look at them.
look at your new jumper now.
Well don't pull them!
Oh they are pretty aren't they!
Little flowers!
Makes you a little clown doesn't it?
No, you're a little clown!
Ha!
Has anybody  
Hello darling!
Little darling!
I'm not
Ha?
a dog like you are!
Perhaps he's working .
Could just have forgotten !
Who's that?
What's what?
God knows!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Sally you're windows, I can't open!
Here comes .
What?
Inside?
Yeah.
Oh well!
I nearly trod on your fingers then didn't I?
Did I?
Mm mm mm.
Yeah  I thought I'd seen cloud on top  on the hills.
That's what you think!
Maybe!
Oh I don't think, they only had the telly .
Oh dear!
Let her bloody, it's not cold!
I know cold!
Ooh look at dolly's knickers!
Just look at those!
Ooh!
When they come down then  do we  or what?
And then !
Ooh I told 
Got a tow truck?
I've counted about seventeen to  twenty caravans.
And there was er
Oh you haven't been your wearing your glasses !
!
There was erm
Mum!
six people.
Er two  two of them
Mum!
five adults and a little one  a baby one  went 
Mum!
along there
Shall I sit on here?
and the caravan next  the one opposite the shop 
Just sit here then.
or the business  
go to your room.
caravan next door
Do I have to go to sleep?
and those people got out a  and I've seen.
So there are a few
We're not going to be here tonight!
in the, in the .
Yeah.
Can we  are we going to ?
I don't know !
See what time we've got left!
This is what I do to my teddy  just hold her by her leg  nice teddy, look!
You're dolly!
Ooh!
Ooh!!
Oh!
Have to get another sober!
.
A bird on the roof!
Walking about.
Can we walk  to grandma?
I don't want to!
Well you just play there!
In his 
Yes  and there's a bird on the roof and he was trying get up there 
to see his mummy!
Yeah!
Here he comes!
What?
Good luck!
?
Mm.
Mhm.
Sorry!
.
Where does this mattress belong ?
Off this bed in here.
Mum!?
Can you hold on!
What's that?
Playing on the roof again.
.
Perhaps he's flying down the chimney.
I saw something!
At the door!
It's open then is it?
And again!
Help!
He should do!
Mm mm mm, mm mm .
Do you know what, we haven't played any games?
Haven't played the what?
No, she wants to go up to that playgroup !
After!
Later!
Later?
Later, we're going home!
Have to get ready for work!
We shall have to  go up there 
Not today!
We will  .
Can we have another?
Gotta go work mum!
Come on mum, be the host!
Make a cup of coffee!
We're all dying of thirst!
Oh that's an idea!
Maybe we'll do two at a time .
Never thought about that!
Shall we go see that thing,pool where you play in?
In between, it's got yellow flags.
I'll just get .
Later!
But, we're going home later!
Yeah, we have, I've gotta wait for the man to come!
Why?
I know , no hot water!
Oh, no hot water!
You won't be able to wash your face!
Mum!
Mm?
When I went into the  can we play?
Please?
Please mummy!
Do you know she's  a little 
Mum!
bit, ain't she?
What?
That cardigan isn't too long for her!
Can I 
No.
mum?
Mum, can I?
Can I?
then going to the shop.
Don't  why?
Oh, I've gotta go to reception first.
Go to the shop.
Where you going?
Are you going
We're collecting now, wait!
What do you want from the shop?
Do you want some .
Some .
Did you get one?
Yes.
Where's her shoes?
Take me!
So you're going up ?
Well , not yet.
I'll wait and see what happens!
Well you can come back and I'll tell you what happens!
I'm going up to reception.
So as I can take her for a ride and back.
I don't want to go for a ride!
I want to go that  !
Oh, that isn't 
until next Monday dear!
Monday or Tuesday.
And it's Saturday today.
Now then  Saturday
No, it's the one with the slide!
Yeah, well it isn't open until Monday or Tuesday.
So it's Saturday today
Can we go and have a look in case she's wrong?
Can we?
I'll pop you out in the bag  in a minute !
Can we?
Why nanny!
I don't know!
I've got to wait for the man!
Okay.
Mummy will.
Oh !
Pull yourself together Sal!
Ha!
I can come with you then.
nappy!
Why, why does the man wanna come?
Mind you don't fall!
Why does wanna come?
Just seeing why the water  heater isn't working!
It is working!
It isn't working!
Which heater?
In the bathroom!
It won't get hot!
The water doesn't get hot!
And it should when you have a bath  shouldn't it?
Mm.
Do you know what?
When  when the have 
Once upon a time!
Get off!
When
Come and get  and get your skates in the car!
Why?
Cos we will  have to go in the car.
Oh have you got your skates?
Mum!
I want to go down see it.
We'll see that in a minute.
Okay.
Gonna bring your bike down there?.
Stop it!
We go and .
She even said it was quiet!
I know, there's no crowd about!
Yeah!
Well
Now's the time to learn 
innit?
You've gotta put
Put a size of a  on it!
Mummy, I want to go!
Well you've gotta put your wellies on and  
You gotta put your shoes on!
Ha?
Put your shoes on, quick!
Have to put your roller skates in the car.
Outside.
Your shoes!
Not inside!
Get them on!
Why?
Well, no why's about it!
Get them on!
No!
Yes!
No!
Right this very minute!
Wow you 
Else I shall say ding dang on your bum!
You can't make me!cos  cos you're not gonna  I'll give you a smack bum!
Urgh You still got !
Here mum!
Mum!
Mama ma 
Yes alright dear.
You've gotta have it done!
They're your snow boots aren't they?
I just go 
Come on then!
I will !
Are they snow boots?
No, they're
Mountain climbing boots.
Mountain climbers!
Oh weh 
climbed up on .
Do you want your coat on?
Did they know  that they we , these were coming down?
Yeah!
And Mark, definite cos it's on the papers, it's on the books!
We asked them .
Mm.
That's why  ask what time of year!
This is, God, a bloody afternoon wasted!
Damn thing's gonna be a bloody pest!
It will go!
How much a week rent  do you pay for ground?
No, it all comes out at the end of the summer, see.
Yeah, but d er, do they tell you  how much they take out?
Yeah.
It's all laid out.
Ha QQ ho ha .
Are the  at the back any different is it?
Yeah.
But er, I think that the  the tiles a bit near the woodwork.
Mhm.
Look at her, going on down the road!
Oh she's got her bike.
Roller skates.
Oh!
She'll never get her to go like that cos her legs are too stiff!
Oh, she like .
Making harder work !
Mm?
Making harder work for herself!
Mm mm!
She's come off!
They're walking.
Hark at the wind coming in through the
Fire, the vent.
Mm.
No.
Sorry to trouble you, do you own the caravan I'm renting?
I own them.
You own it?
Oh!erm  we own a caravan.
Could you tell me have you been very happy with the  services ?
How everything works out, the parking charge
Come in.
and  that?.
Well  come in!
Thank you.
I don't really know much about this cos my son does it all.
Oh I see!
Hiya 
Hello!
I'm cold!
You know  Nice way to get warm!
Yeah !
.
Erm  I don't really know much about it this is our first spring, you see?
There's all grass on there!
Is it?
So this a new
I'm afraid I brought that in !
Did you?
Yes, it's off my feet!
We've been ploughing all over the grass!
I'd better stand 
God!
out there really!
You stand out there then!
I don't want to walk all over your carpet!
Oh !
There's a  there
Yes.
and stand right on it!
Erm 
Get tho get those stools out.
Is it a new 
Yeah.
one then?
Yeah, I mean 
Not brand new!
It was new to us!
Was it?
Yeah.
So this is your, really your first year is it?
Yeah.
And, are you going to let it out?
No.
Oh!
Why?
Well, we bought a caravan last year  actually at the end of May
Yeah.
Yes.
And erm
Move out the way!
we  it   we don't think it was let out very often.
That was through to the end of September.
When we came up to see it  well  it was a brand spanking new
Yeah.
we nearly cried!
It was in such a state!
Only had it for a few months.
Upholstery, carpets  the bath  the toilet  the cooker, the fridge  the whole lot was filthy!
And when we think that we saw it when it was new!
Yeah.
And I went storming down to the office, didn't I?
And I said  renting it, because it must of been occupied by animals!
Mm.
It was disgusting!
Animals and .
Ah know 
Well 
we've stated
Yeah.
It doesn't matter what you state, cos we had heard  from other pe , I've been doing this, I've been up here last weekend  cos I am so angry about all this!
Well we've had a little 
It's just a joke!
problem now!
That's why we're here.
Really?
Ah!
Er  there are so many  with nothing 
Well we came 
to do with these  .
We came down  my son came down here  month  and he  and er, put red lead all underneath it.
You know the ?
Following Sunday I came down to wash it and polish it  and now we've got blue stickers in the bathroom  the heater!
We had a message 
And the 
through
And the boys come down for a week!
And they know it!
How many 
Here 
did they do?
Here he is  coming back!
Be careful, the door opens outwards!
We erm  we had a letter through but it was to test the boilers, because .
So we did and we've 
Yes.
heard no more about it!
Ah well  I  got a thing tested on ours  thought ours was alright.
I hope so!
Well there's a great
On the Sunday we were here
Oh was it?
that blue thing was on the window!
That's to say  water?
But now it's got red across it, failed!
And that wasn't there .
And you've got to pay more money to make sure it's put right!
I don't know!
Yeah you do!
There are!
Didn't know anything about it!
You do!
They tell you that!
The whole thing is just  
There are no rules.
This is  this .
See, ours was nineteen ninety one because it 
You're joking!
was er  absolutely  
Three years, or two years, I dunno!
Ah well cos I think the newer one will be  this is some government thing to do with the gas.
I mean with fitting the 
Yeah.
flue.
So we had all that consequently!
Mm.
And erm 
Hey!
some of them of failed, and if they fail you have to pay so much.
You have to pay so much anyway to have it changed.
But, as I say, we've been very unhappy about it!
We had erm  notes through about  Out of 
ten pillows, seven needed replacing and we needed a new milk saucepan, a new frying pan, a new ashtray
Mm!
cleaners etcetera!
So, I replaced most of them myself and then whenever we came down  course we complained about the cleaning!
When we came down  well  it was still  less that desirable!
It's terrible!
And erm 
The cooker was filthy!
Yeah!
The fridge had mould in it!
All what?
I mean we're talking about 
a thing that's been used for a couple of months!
Yeah.
Then he came in  er   sort of  right at the end said, well look, I'm so cheesed off with you lot 
can't we do anything about it?
She said, look  let me know, how much it's going to cost me to get rid of this, because I've had enough!
And we've only just bought it !
Well
So er 
June , last year.
June , yes.
And so er 
He came back 
then erm
I think you can understand!
Is this your 
so, they won't give us 
caravan?
No.
They won't quote any 
Oh!
price!
They quote anything!
So you find you're, you're on your own!
Yeah.
And erm  you know, if we pay up 
Everything is  
it's cost a fortune to actually the caravan sited  pay out six thousand quid right?
And then, you have to let it out then.
Through them  they have to have first option.
They're the one that gets the benefit!
Well  two weeks ago 
But then they can't sell it!
They can't sell it!
And that's only the new one!
Cos they said, I won't be able sell it cos they  they've got so many new ones on the site!
Last week there was people in here!
So how could that water be like it is?
Cos you can't use it!
There is no hot water!
Well he can't!
Well everything  everything is
in their favour.
And I've  well the people, all the people I've spoken to  and everybody I've spoken to  is very unhappy!
I haven't spoken to one who's satisfied yet!
I've been on the telephone to people!
I'm taking numbers off of caravans where they're letting  and I've been round and spoken to people who are in them caravans, and not one is happy!
Last week a chap down here, David 
Yeah.
Told me, he said, well  ninety five per cent are happy.
I said, really?
Well I haven't found one yet!
Out 
Yes.
of all the people I've spoken to!
What did they say now?
They're all very unhappy!
I tell you!
This woman doesn't know anything, like!
She just said there's two boys out on there on site  and the one, the, the ginger haired boy knows the  you know  the problem.
And I 
Mum!
said, well look I said, I don't wanna know 
Hold on!
that!
I said, is this he , water heater gonna be ?
I don't know!
I, oh it's alright, she said it's in the bathroom?
I said yeah.
She said well  he knows about it, it's all in hand!
Well 
Well I 
that's no good to me, like!
No!
No it's
He said he'd be one of the first.
He's putting the flues on and he hasn't come down to check it so if he's down here I'm gonna bloody tell him.
pipes like that 
Yeah.
Oh.
And still they've condemned it.
Yes, it's surely their van.
And other flues all down along there.
Mm.
All on the grass see?
It's coming out of here.
This bloke, he said.
One of them goes round putting the chimneys on and the other checks the flue.
Oh.
So I'll tell him that the fire will be on.
Mm.
There's some in the van there.
They're pretty good ones aren't they?
Having their dinner.
Yeah.
That looks nice.
Perhaps they've been in and done it now.
bloody thing.
Well the one door is empty and
And the first booking for the caravan, she just said it again.
I've got it on my tape  is th the twenty first of March.
When the first comes in?
When the first comes in.
On the twenty first of March.
And Danny said the third .
Third did he?the first which was the Sunday and he had to get it ready because they were coming in on the Tuesday, on the third.
That's why there was such a mad panic to get it done  on the Sunday the last day before   So why are the mattresses back there getting bloody damp?
Oh I forgot to give him them.
Mark isn't coming over to pick the car up.
He doesn't want to.
He's enjoying his break.
Oh he's   He's alright a couple of days and  getting old I think.
Mark loves it.
Loves being on his own.
Ah but he don't get the chance does he?
Although I like being by myself.
But then I  different age isn't it, to ?
What the bloody hell is that?
Montrose twenty eight.
R twelve.
Well it's the key of somebody's cottage  
It's the key of somebody's caravan but it's not ours.
Perhaps it's the one he's got.
I'll go and try these in the door now cos this is ours.
the door.
Look at that old thing squat on the roof.
It is.
But they've got the bloody labels mixed up by the look of it.
Try them both.
Yeah I'm gonna try the both.
That is it.
Well what the hell is that?
Montrose, twenty eight.
R twelve and that one's J twelve.
Oh, well what's the other one?
this is.
Oh well anyway it's a code name, it's no business of yours.
But what number's on the other one?
one.
what?
This is the owner's set, a Mr .
Well who's are these?
Well you'd better see Mark first and  and let them have them back.
Mark.
It's nothing, these aren't nothing to do with Mark.
Oh.
They belong in the .
It smells musty in here.
Yes.
This is a caravan smell and Mrs  's clothes used to stink by it.
Mm.
Oh I don't believe this!
Couldn't be bothered to shop.
I'll give them all to Mark.
And then I'll go up the shop and get some, I'll need a couple of boxes.
Where's the microwave?
Ooh god .
gas on or should we turn the lights on so we can get the  
No paper.
I've gotta have er paper to leave messages.
I was gonna ask Mark for a pen.
I've got a pen and I've got paper.
A big  note.
So that I can say the fire's burning.
Mm.
Well you can call by and tell him that.
Yeah but I want it for the men that's going to alter the gas.
Oh.
For signs.
I'm gonna put one in there  one on the kitchen
You'll have to buy a paper pad  that's all .
and one by the fire.
Yeah.
Then all the doors  should be open see.
They are damp but they don't feel too bad 
No.
See if they leave the doors open it's not too bad.
Oh well.
coat hanger  on the floor.
Feel this and feel those beds in there.
But I mean this is a  er er er
His home.
Yes but it's a  a cold room  
No that's wet.
Yes it's wet.
Well these were too weren't they?
And he's stuck them by the fire.
Yeah  them all .
Well I'm just gonna get the paper and that's it.
Costing a bloody fortune.
Eh?
To light the fire.
goes out and 
Yeah.
any toilet paper.
No paper or  Haven't got pens there.
No pens.
No tissues.
Any tissues?
No.
Erm 
How many pieces of paper do you want?
Too hard.
Let's go down the toilet, see if it's open.
No wait a minute.
No wait a minute.
disconnected the gas, took that bloody old heater off, connected it up somewhere else and whatever they're gonna do  and then  the gas is coming through a fire.
Well Mark is there.
We can pop across and see.
He's not gonna go  round the caravan and  try each bed out is he?
He said he was going to   and see that it was done
Mhm.
things were done well that's a matter of .
Oh it'd be better for him to put that fire on at night time  and go over in the morning and switch it off.
Well  be at work before he can be out of bed probably, in the morning.
Have to .
And if he's gonna walk to Tenby they could be starting when he's in Tenby.
Well Sally will be there.
Well Sally'll go with him.
Yeah?
I mean if, if he forgets Sally could remind him.
Two of them.
If those men wasn't going there I would say right, put the gas fire on.
Put it on low and leave it the night and day cos it was left on for a week once wasn't it?
Mm.
Oh god that was, that was  at er  the flat.
Left on for a fortnight.
Oh and it was a cold day.
But it was in  August or the end of September or someth er er the beginning of September  and it was a chilly day but it was still summer.
It wasn't, you know, it wasn't terribly cold.
But we went home and I remember going in the room, I opened the door and  oh it's lovely and warm in here!
So I stood by the door  I wait till dad come in cos he was the last out  and it was always my fault like, I would have left the fire on not him.
So I stood by the door and I never moved till he went in   oh he said  But with a caravan I don't know.
Mm they're not very powerful grates are they?
Dunno   Oh nan he says, get Mark 
Is, is yours a  heater?
Mm?
Is yours a a long and 
Well you either put one bar on  or the lot is on  or it's very dim like this is low and you can't see it at all.
There's no heat from it.
You want something that gives heat 
There is heat.
But you can't see it.
Oh.
But you want to air them beds, you want to dry them beds.
I mean you've got to have heat there.
Well Danny says get Mark and bung them in the bloody car and bring it home.
the best thing  you want to stick it in the room and put a   heater .
Well we could put it in the spare bedroom.
Put it up against the radiator.
Mm.
But if someone's going there next week, that's  two beds, three beds.
You could put them in the sitting room.
And put the heater on there, put the fire on there.
Mm.
Well I dunno.
I do like this.
I'm afraid I 
You don't have to.
Have a drink and it disappears.
Oh I dunno  
And there isn't the flavour in it that used to be.
And this is Marks and Spencers?
Mm.
There's a  you know they used to put  I suppose vanilla essence or some of these  no almond would it be?
Mm.
I don't know.
There used to be a lot more taste on it though than there is on that one anyway.
Well if he's going down there tomorrow why can't he bring them back?
Well I suppose he could.
I have to say it would help him.
I suppose they're  I suppose they're worrying him?
They want something done about it.
Well I wouldn't bloody .
No way.
That thing on top of that mattress, the thing that doesn't fit  who's is that?
Oh theirs.
Dunno.
Belongs to the caravan
Yeah.
Well that's what I mean, belongs to the caravan.
Why was it stuck on the bed?
Because that is the mattress for the bed that folds away in the sitting room.
Right?
But it seems to me to be a foam thing.
It is.
And it's covered in a, in a  po polythene would you say?
Plastic  or what it is covered?
Cloth.
Cos you couldn't put that by the fire.
Yeah.
It would melt.
It's a cloth cover on it.
But I bet it's plastic inside it.
It's like these cushions isn't it?
It's foam.
Yes.
Foam.
But why was it so damp and cold here then?
Because it's wet and it's damp.
Well plastic doesn't hold the damp.
It isn't plastic, it's foam!
Well the foam, it doesn't
Oh god, yes.
Well you couldn't put them in the car could you?
What?
The mattresses.
Mm?
Well I've put the big one in but I know that the rest wouldn't go in.
Mm.
But then the little bedroom wasn't so  didn't seem so damp.
But you didn't try it did you, really?
In that caravan  a caravan's a caravan, call it what you like  but in that caravan that Mark is in  there was that little  room where the w hot water heater is
Mm.
and there was a hole er on the floor over there with a grating on it that was  you could see through to the ground.
Mm.
Well if  through the winter months  when there's no fire in there, no nothing in there  the damp is bound to be coming through there.
Fog gets in.
Course it does.
All caravans are like that.
But you've got to have those caravan, those vents because the van is so small and you've got gas supplied.
It's rules and regulations.
If you've got a gas fire in  
It it means that they haven't been doing their duty in the winter then.
If they guarantee to put the mattresses all up  in the dry  they asked you to do yours  or did they say they would do it?
They done it.
Well how's the damn thing on the bed then?
Because they put it back there for these people  that was coming in.
Oh.
They didn't seemingly.
We don't know.
Do we?
No.
Well there were no  there anyway.
So they say.
It's all hearsay.
Well alright.
Perhaps the man was working part-time.
Perhaps he never noticed the .
Perhaps the people were in the van  and found the beds wet and said well we can't sleep here and they slept in the sit with the fire on.
I dunno.
It could have been.
cos there was only two here.
cold weather in any case.
Eh?
It's cold weather in any case.
That's right.
Shut the lights.
You don't know.
Mm.
So you can't swear to that then.
No.
That, that they weren't there.
You can't, no.
And then again alright, the fire was condemned on the sixth.
Well those people were only there from Tuesday to Friday.
And the sixth was a Friday.
So it could have been condemned as they were going.
Oh.
I don't know.
Neither have I.
That's why I 
But er anyway if Danny's, if if Mark is there now  he can bring one home today and then he can bring the others tomorrow.
Er it's only the two little ones.
If there are two little ones there.
Yeah.
If there are two little ones there.
If they're big enough for  for Susan's two boys.
And and one for  
Well their girls have gotta sleep in them.
Mm.
Er it's only one big one and two little ones.
Well then you might as well push that little thing in as well mightn't you?
Oh yes.
And bring them home.
But Mark won't be there when you take them back.
Well he says he's going to the, he said he was going to the  on Friday and they would be  finished by Friday.
And he was going to see that it was finished by Friday.
Mm.
Well you could take them back on Friday.
Mhm yeah, I could take them back Friday.
How am I gonna get them in the van?
What van?
In, back into the caravan.
On me own.
Oh.
It's a double mattress, a double bedded mattress.
I can't bloody lift that.
So the only thing that I would suggest is to
Well still Mark will be  there.
Or he could come down with you on Saturday?
Or Sally maybe would be able to come down with you Saturday and help you?
Unless we went over the same day that Susan went over.
And kept the mattresses till Susan goes.
But the understanding is  that like Mark has got the caravan this week.
Mm.
But if they had a booking to go into it, Mark's gotta get out.
Oh well he could ring you up and you could take them back down but at least they would be dried.
Cos if anybody  who could they come on if they caught cold and and
Well I dunno.
You or him?
I dunno.
It's like fighting a losing battle isn't it?
If someone else 
I wouldn't worry at all.
I wouldn't hesitate.
It's an embarrassment for people to come in and catch cold and think it's your mattresses that's done it.
Mm.
If those men were not working on the gas I would go over there now, and I'd switch the fire and I'd leave it on.
Mm.
Yes.
The thing is old Mark is there to see to it.
Mark won't be there to see to it?
Why?
Because  how does M Mark know?
Mark right, he's got up this morning and he's gone to Tenby.
And he's gone to look around Tenby.
While he's gone those men have gone in there.
That's what I mean.
He can't be standing there watching the bloody thing all the time.
No.
But he could put a note on it.
Please leave this fire on.
Please do not touch this fire.
Well they've got to haven't they?
To disconnect the gas.
Oh I thought it was water problems.
Gas.
A gas water heater!
Oh.
They've gotta disconnect the gas to get the water heater off the wall.
And fix it to the 
Well Mark will be back there tonight and he can switch it on when he comes home.
Make it his responsibility.
Oh you don't understand!
In the meantime  the men have took the water heater off the wall.
They've put it from that wall, and they've stuck it on to this wall.
Oh let's connect it up  see if it works.
Now in the meantime there's gas seeping through that fire there with no light.
Oh.
So you've blown your caravan.
Well then again, there's Mark and Sally.
You could take the mattresses and put them in their caravan in the spare bedroom.
Is there a spare bedroom?
Well no.
Cos Mark's going in one, Sally's going in the other.
Oh bring them home then.
Bring them home and tell them that you're taking them home to air.
And I don't suppose, they're not wet  you see.
It's different  it's, they're damp  it's different if there'd been a hole and the water was coming in.
They're not saturated.
No.
It won't take them long.
That's what I says.
If those men wasn't working there I wouldn't hesitate.
The fire would go on and I'd leave it on low
Mm.
and the atmosphere would warm up  right through the caravan.
Mm.
But I'd hump them into the sitting room.
If those men came there on Tuesday
Mm.
and done their work  and Mark rang me here and said, on Tuesday  the caravan's great now, the fires are alright.
I'd go straight over there and switch the fires on.
Mm.
Well I'd even tell him to go down only he ain't got the keys.
Cos they're not going to take an awful long time in a good hot room  to dry.
the only thing again that I'm thinking of  what if we gets them out of the caravan  and we gets them into the car and we're getting them in and out here  and then we gets them back into the car to take them back over and in to the caravan, what if we rip the bloody things?
Well if we rip them we rip them and I'll mend them.
Mm.
They are yours aren't they?
Mm.
Put a patch on them.
Then she turned round and she said, I said to her those beds are soaking, I said.
There's nobody can sleep in those.
Yes, she said but er when I went down there to check after you'd gone, she said  erm  yours was erm  the driest of them sort of thing.
Suppose they didn't bother with them.
And I said 
Didn't bother with them.
See they're alright.
I said then  well I said from the time now, I said  there is nobody I said, can sleep on those mattresses.
No she said, it does take a while for caravans to dry out.
Well  say what you were saying 
So in other words  you don't go to the caravan.
. Let it be their responsibility, they put them in there.
Well Mark's going in at his own risk, see?
They sold them to you complete.
So?
So they're yours.
What's the good of a bed  a bed without a mattress?
I'm talking about the mattresses.
What are you talking about?
The caravan!
Well I thought you was talking about mattresses airing in front of the fire.
Well that subject's gone!
Oh well
I'm saying  that  Park, what the woman said that she went down to check the vans  last summer
Mm.
end of last summer.
long time since then .
And to see that the salt was there and the mattresses were up and that was great.
And she went down to check in the winter time and she said your van was really dry.
Oh.
Well it all depends how she checked.
perhaps.
Well then they then they went and put the mattresses back  in their places.
Now the mattresses are soaking.
Mm.
And I said there's nobody can go and sleep on those mattresses.
And she said well it does take a time for the vans to dry out.
Mm.
Not until the sun comes hot and heavy on it.
So whoever goes there, to anybody's van, that's what they're getting.
Oh well, I should take advantage now Mark is in, bring the damn things from there.
Then you can get him to help you take them back on Friday.
I think we'd have to ring them up and let them know what we're doing.
Well go in office and tell them.
You can talk  personally better than on the phone.
Cos they are your mattresses aren't they?
When you take them back they're there for their inspection.
Unless you  you  take electric blanket down?
Put it on, oh  You can't put that on a damp bed can you?
Not really.
Don't think so.
Not 
Well they are protected.
What?
Er er electric blankets.
Don't know.
They're built er pretty, pretty good that way I think.
I don't know what about the lags for the wall  
And another thing, I didn't even look in Mark's room.
Was there pillows and blankets and quilts in his  caravan?
I didn't look.
Well perhaps Sally had a hunt 
Dunno.
Oh well   Well I dunno I think I'll go and wash me hair.
It's desperate for it.
I've gotta have a bath in the morning.
tomorrow.
Is it?
Well I'm not bound to, no.
What?
Have a bath tomorrow.
Well you can have one .
Good god, you can have one now if you want it.
I hope  you know I'd er  see he'll have to put the back seat of the car down into a van.
Shit I'm afraid in case those mattresses rip.
Mm?
Because they're so thin.
Well  I'll mend the buggers  for you .
And don't be afraid of a patch dear.
It's not that I'm afraid of a patch.
Are caravan sizes the same as everyday sizes?
The beds, the big beds are.
The small beds aren't.
Well you can get erm two foot bunk beds nan.
Mm.
But they're not spring mattresses.
Mm.
Although what's on the bed is nice mattresses.
Oh what's  have you got his dinner?
Yes.
Oh.
Bloody cheek, do him the world of good to go without for a day or two.
He won't eat it.
Well that's it, he he 
It's treating him like a kid of  five or six year old isn't it?
He forgets that he
Well the thing is he doesn't have a dinner every day of the week.
It won't hurt him.
Lots of people don't have one at all.
And then he looks forward to the weekends and that.
He had dinner yesterday before he went.
So that's his weekend dinner.
If he was in living in a flat by himself he wouldn't be having one at all.
Well I don't imagine, unless he went out for it.
Fish and chips at night is it, his dinner?
Look at the ruddy traffic.
Mm.
Oh  held up.
Oh the lights have come higher up now.
Oh.
It's Sunday today.
There's more transport on the road I expect.
The lights have been moved up the road.
Oh.
I don't like the glass in those windows.
Where?
Coloured glass isn't it?
Yeah.
Don't look right somehow.
Still, net curtains on them.
Eh?
When you've net curtains on them.
There are four niggers in there.
Mm?
Four niggers in that .
Mm.
Oh  god.
Now I need the key .
Mm?
Gonna need the key for this.
the west end of London.
The east end I think.
East end then.
Oh he's got a nice shirt on.
in a pub he was, got drunk and for a twenty pound bet shaved off all his hair.
I still owe him the money.
But he is stupid cos he went hitchhiking once and left a day early to avoid traffic.
Here, do you know what I fancy?
I fancy an icecream.
She said well I'll go and get you one.
He said no, you know what your memory's like, you're bound to forget.
She said no I won't, what do you fancy?
He said well  I fancy  vanilla and strawberry icecream with chocolate sauce, raspberry sauce, crushed nuts and a flake.
She said right, vanilla and strawberry icecream, chocolate sauce, crushed nuts.
said right, I shall be back in five minutes.
Two hours later she come back with a ham sandwich.
He said you silly cow!
You forgot the mustard.
East end.
This week on handy hints we are talking fishing.
I once went for a job as a fisherman.
The boss said Connolly you've got the job, you start on Monday.
I said that sounds alright, could I have a sub?
He said no you're on a fishing boat like everybody else.
Well one of the greatest qualities a fisherman can have is of course patience.
And you can spend the whole day without a bite.
As for me, I always take my packed lunch.
And pot noodles is one of my favourite dishes.
No.
I don't think  that the pub is open  the cafs aren't open  the amusements aren't open.
The bar's open.
No.
All locked up and in darkness.
?
We went there, had a look.
Perhaps they'll open at night time.
Dunno.
When he asked me when they opened.
I don't know I said.
And what time do they shut?
And I said I don't know but I said I shouldn't think it would be too late.
I dunno.
And er 
Did he eat the dinner?
Well I dunno.
I left it there and then  went down the caravan.
When we come back he'd got the dishes all ready for me.
So you don't know if he ate it or not?
No  the dishes .
Mm?
She gave me a key.
Mm.
She told me here's your keys now she said because you've lost a set.
You didn't tell her any different did you?
Well why didn't you tell me ?
I did tell you!
I told you yesterday.
You told me they'd got a set of keys.
What's happened?
So she give me a set of keys.
And?
And erm  I give them to Mark.
Aye.
And I told him I want them back, don't take them to the office.
So  what did they say about you keeping them on??
I went in there again and I told her that you'd rung and some  Angela from sales  Andrea, we haven't got an Andrea she said.
So she said somebody else it could have been.
I said I don't know I said.
Angela 
No.
I don't know.
But erm  she said  she has said that we could do this and she said that's fine, she said.
As long as you don't  as long as you don't put erm anything too near it.
Mm.
And I said Mark's here so that he can switch it  switch it off at nights.
So anyway while I was there  Darren came in.
Is everything alright?
He said.
Are all the jobs done?
And I said well look I said, I've got to come  because I said there's no way anybody  I said I wouldn't do it myself, I wouldn't put anybody in those beds.
I said something's got to be done and it won't wait.
And I said I'm going to leave the fire on  and er Mark's here and he'll switch it off at night.
That's alright she said.
Let's see she said,th when's the first  when's your first booking?
Not until, I think she said April twenty first.
Yeah that comes under the  bookings.
That's our first booking, paid booking.
Nothing about these ones that's already been in.
We're there
Susan is there  she said the twenty first and I  on the twenty first.
But she wouldn't be on their books like that would it?
Well she'd be on a form, yes.
That's the twenty first of March.
Yes.
Well perhaps she was talking about Sue then.
I don't know.
I didn't really stop to find out.
And er  she said that'll be alright.
And Mark's there, I said he'll switch it off at night.
Fine she said, as long as there's nothing left too near the fire.
So I took the envelope off those tickets and I tore that up and wrote down and I stuck it in the  water heater that the sitting room fire may be on, please check.
I put another one then on the draining board.
Cos if they're going to fix it round the sink, he doesn't know where they're gonna put it.
You know, while I was there Darren came in.
And he said er have all the jobs been done yet?
And I said well no I said there's some water I said.
Mark's on holiday this week I said.
they've put him in another.
Oh that's right he said.
I heard something about this he said, er  I was on holidays  all last week he said but erm  it's bloody lies cos I saw him last week.
And he said erm  yeah he said cos we've gotta pay this he said because it's all in the guarantee.
In the warranty.
And he came in and I said and the mirror on the dressing table isn't done.
You know and  that's gone and I said feel these beds I said.
They're soaking wet.
And he felt them and he said they are a bit he said.
So I said well I  Danny rang this morning and he got permission to put the fire on  and put them, I'm going to move them all into the  front  and erm to air them up.
And I said there's no way anybody can sleep in there.
That's alright he said.
And he checked and then he went  So I took the bags off the pillows in case they were sweating in the bags and I put them out on the seats.
I put the quilts all out on the seats.
And .
Because there's eight  there's er   seven, there's eight pillows then and
He's done nothing.
Yeah.
He 
Mm?
The girl in the coun the girl behind the counter, the little tiny one.
Small and 
She's still there?
tiny.
Yes.
She said how's Danny then?
And I said oh he's at home I said  this week I said and that oh and she said  well tell him to get over here and we'll sort him out.
I said eh  I said when Danny comes in he'll sort you out.
And she laughed about it.
Darren said you know the girls in the  were saying that you weren't well, how was you and   one of these days.
I don't know what this is all for.
Well they th th the kids were there but  
And he said will you be there?
And I said well I don't know.
You should have said yes, we're gonna try to.
That's why I got the tickets.
It depends now how er  mm I don't know.
tea?
he enjoyed it for forty years.
two thousand five hundred pounds.
Oh.
He made a mistake.
You know, if there's nothing like the  last week then  Did you have your tea Danny?
I had one piece of butter and jam.
I can't take them tablets till I've eaten something.
Oh.
No empty stomachs.
No.
So 
Terrible.
that was at four o'clock, I had to take a tablet.
Mm.
Well Mark is quite contented where he is.
Sally said the caravan he's in is a lot better than mine.
Ooh it's out of this world.
I mean you can't compare it can you?
And the bedrooms!
You can't compare it, it's the rolls royce of caravans.
That's, that Darren said oh aye, he's the one, he's in the maroon one he said.
He's in the rolls royce.
Top of the range he said.
Beautiful thing.
Good god there's a mirror in the sitting room as big as that wall.
You'll see it when you go over there.
Beautiful thing.
Yes,
And I said I've bought a box of matches for him to go down and light this fire  thinking you know he might need two or three matches at a time.
But er  well I gave him a box of matches to go with him and I thought oh well  he'll have plenty of matches then.
And I took them in, he says  what do you buy them for?
He said.
I've got loads of matches.
In this caravan everything's electronic.
Fridge, light switches ooh  beautiful thing it is.
Ten times the price of ours I expect.
A caravan is a caravan after all, isn't it?
But for what we want it for  ours is good enough.
Good enough.
That's what I'm saying perhaps  they must let it out though.
If we were having 
Why's Malcolm got it?
if we were having a caravan like that, I'd be too frightened to let it.
I wouldn't.
I wouldn't 
Well there we are.
let it.
There we are.
I couldn't afford to pay for it then could I?
No.
He's right up by the wishing wheel  well  or whatever it is.
You know this reproduction furniture?
And the little lead windows?
That's got it all inside it.
And the shower hasn't got a curtain it's got a big black door.
is it?
No.
the shower is.
Quite a few people there today.
Whether it was the fine weather bringing them out or   yesterday.
Lot of owners where down checking it see.
Eh?
Lot of owners were down  checking them.
Mm.
They were .
You could see the mattresses all under the sheet.
And they were cleaning the windows and  washing the box 
I would do that next year.
Mm?
Mm.
I'd do that next year.
We never saw that old girl trudging round today.
The  life of a caravan isn't long is it?
Not  we've got.
When we bought it he told me I'd have at least ten years because the make of it is  it's a good make.
And the make has got a lot to do with it.
Oh.
And what is the make of it?
Doesn't know why you let it like you do.
You'll get kids in it running and jumping and wrestling about.
And this woman said that she stated no animals.
But she said they tell you that and she said they tell you, it's on computer she said, but animals do go in the vans.
Well I can tell you one thing, animals will not go into ours.
And I tell you she's got a different contract with me altogether.
You read our contract didn't you, last night?
It's there in black and white.
Mm I know, that's what she said.
I don't how she knows.
If I, if if I found out there was animals in our caravan, I'd take them to town.
But how do you know if you're not there every second?
You  you for one, like her, when you went to the caravan, you'd smell it like that.
Oh I .
But you'd smell it wouldn't you?
Mm.
And they know this.
Cos there are dogs there, great big ones.
Yeah.
Mm big white ones.
That   that man yesterday, he paid six thousand pound for his caravan.
He s he said that on the tape.
Mhm.
I listened to the tape with her last night.
He paid six thousand pound.
We paid fourteen thousand seven hundred for ours.
Mm.
He hasn't got, ours is a gold golden olympic.
He's not having the rent we're having.
No.
He's got a .
He hasn't got a brand new caravan.
But he nearly gave six thousand pound for it.
That's what they said though.
Yeah I know.
I know they said it.
I heard them.
But a new caravan starts from eleven thousand eight hundred.
That's the price of a new one.
I know they're as good as a house almost.
Well he said on that tape, I gave them a fat cheque of six thousand pounds.
Mm.
Well that isn't bloody  half of what we paid.
Yeah I'm paying for mine monthly, but I won't disturb fourteen thousand seven hundred.
Perhaps perhaps he's got a  an agreement.
Like perhaps he bought the ground and the caravan, and then they had an agreement that er  Stone Park would er  b you know let it, be responsible for when they let it or something.
Yeah.
See  there's different contracts altogether there.
Mm.
I mean he  she was going on that tape about she had to replace some things.
Mm.
She had  well I've got nothing like that.
No.
If something is gone  they replace it.
That's part of the contract.
Well everything had gone on the  one.
Well
Dishes and  furniture and 
Pillows.
everything was ripped out or destroyed.
Pillows.
Well
She had to pay for eight pillows.
Mm.
We've had no bills like that.
We were asked if we wanted to do the chassis.
And  she was so toffee-nosed as if they said  the curtains.
Oh yes I'll have them c gotta have them done.
And and probably said they'd maintain the thing for her  at a price.
Well at a price yeah.
I mean  they don't do nothing for nothing.
No of course not.
They're out to get money, aren't they?
It's their living.
But when we had these things through for the chassis and the cleaning of the caravan, it was all optional.
If I, if you wanted to go down there and scrub the van out, you go and scrub it out.
You go and do it.
And it saves
And I will next year.
it saves thirty five pounds.
Mm.
But for that thirty five pounds  the carpets are shampooed, the seats are shampooed, the lot.
Were they in today?
What?
The men?
Darren was there.
Oh he was the only one.
Yeah.
Cos there was two 
He come to see
two workmen went by.
Yeah, further down.
I even went, I was dying to go to the toilet  so I thought oh I'll go down to the big er  and I had no toilet paper  so I'll go down to the big toilets and shower rooms.
They're all locked.
Everything's locked up there.
Everything's locked there.
There's toilet paper in the caravan.
No.
Not even the holder it was on.
Gone.
Well when Roger and Mark was there, there was a toilet roll there.
Mm.
Yeah well er Mark took a couple with him but course they're in the caravan with him.
No.
No.
He took them from here.
When they went down to do the chassis
Yeah, they took one 
there was a toi 
in case they needed the toilet.
there was a toilet roll in there then.
Well it's gone.
And the cardboard roll off it.
Mm.
I wonder who's got that grocery store?
Oh when I was over there last 
It goes out to tender I expect.
when I was over there last they were, there was four trucks r loading that supermarket up.
Mm.
Long lease I expect.
Four lorry loads of stuff there.
Yes, it's could be like Thomas  shop.
He has it for so long.
Oh I don't know.
Mm.
Three or four years perhaps at a time.
Mm.
And then you've gotta go.
You've gotta put in tenders for it then.
Cos they must make a bomb though.
Unless Stone Park has got it.
Cos a lot of stuff isn't in.
They could be put a manager in and   the benefits.
I suppose they would.
Mm.
Perhaps they do.
And then there's staff there to run it.
I dunno.
Well the man with the bike, that's his business.
And the ma and the people then with clothes last year, who were they now?
To the shop?
Was M was Mark's caravan warm?
Well he didn't have a fire on, nothing.
He was just lying there watching telly and reading the paper and
Did he have a paper?
Mm.
Should have brought it back, did you?
No.
He bought the Saturday one that's got the week  part in it.
Why didn't he come over and fetch the car then?
Because he said there's no point, I don't want it.
Well I've got to take his over now, he'll have to bring me back.
Yeah.
What I was going to tell him, if he was to come over, take my car there  when I'd have taken this car over, I would have had a car to come back.
Well that's what he said.
He said you'd better keep the car there in case his won't be ready or something.
Mm.
Lot of kids about though.
In another couple of weeks  spring then.
Would if the weather would take up.
But still they book regardless of weather don't they?
Mm.
Mm.
That's the night for my birthday.
All the machines and everything are switched off in there.
Yeah but you see  on the, oh I don't know what date it is  sixteenth tomorrow  on the eighteenth erm  eighteenth, nineteenth, twentieth  they have Freddie and the Dreamers there.
Well that's Wednesday.
Yeah.
So they must be open at nights to practise.
Mark is there.
Mark  Mark is going to it.
That George Roper's there the week after.
Will Sally be able to go with him?
Course she will.
She's got a member's ticket.
She's a bloody erm member's ticket just like Mark has got.
Don't cost her anything.
But on that one, there's no children allowed in there.
It's adult only.
And there's a buffet with it.
A free buffet.
Well now, do they run a show  and that racket's going on in the entertainment club at the same time?
Oh you can't hear it.
The show is up in the other rooms.
Huge big rooms up there.
In the  room.
It holds sixteen hundred and fifty people.
We didn't go up there.
Mm.
Well it must be one heck of a me er noises.
You can't hear a thing in there.
Mm.
No.
We 
And there's a big dance hall there.
We didn't go into them because they were all closed up.
Do you remember that George and Mildred used to be on telly in comedy?
Oh yes.
Oh I remember Mildred.
Well George 
Yeah well George's the drippy one.
She, she she's dead now er
Mm.
Mm.
Mildred.
Well George Roper is there  on the twenty eighth of March.
Oh is that his name?
Yeah.
George Roper.
Mm.
George and Mildred.
She was funny.
She was good.
He's there on the twenty eighth of March.
Well what does he do then?
He's a comedian.
Well you know, bit of acting, comedian.
Featuring stars cabaret George Roper and a full supporting programme.
I think that'll be very old.
Well he's fifties.
Gonna say I don't think he could go on his own, go down on his own  
Well .
I mean they've got the comedians there er next week  for four nights.
The ones that are on television.
A string of comedians saying jokes one after the other.
Though this year 
Well I I never thought much of George Roper.
I I  he was nothing without Mildred.
Mm.
Well he  like Harry Worth weren't he?
It's er  the way he says things.
He could make you laugh by looking at him.
I mean he is a comedian.
I thought she was the bottom of it all.
It was she that kept the thing going.
Well no cos  the show was based on that er Spencer, what was his name?
Frank Spencer?
Frank Spencer and Betty thing.
This show was based on the same thing.
He was a s she was the one that's alright and he was the stupid one.
Like Frank Spencer used to do stupid things.
Now that George used to have a bloody motorbike and a sidecar.
The sidecar would go that way, motorbike would go that way.
You know, stupid things.
Long time ago Danny.
I don't remember much about these things.
I I remember that show.
Never used to miss them.
Reg On the Buses was like that as well.
Oh no I didn't like that.
His sister and her husband, forget her name.
Arthur was the husband.
Mm.
Oh there we are.
Oh dear.
Ring Sally now then, cos she wants to put  in the bath with her.
Well does she go in in the morning?
No I dunno  Sally works on a Monday.
Oh.
Oh aye yeah.
So I dunno.
Eight o'clock I think she said last night.
Finishing at eight?
She's going in about eight.
Oh.
Oh I don't know.
She'll tell you.
That's alright then.
But I really should have looked at me plants.
Mm?
I should have looked at me plants today.
Anyway our Darren came in,and I'm gonna forget  Darren came to the caravan and I was telling him about these wet sheets and beds and  the mirrors done and what I was doing there and  Oh he said and about the mattress he said  and I said to him mattress, it's still the same mattress.
Yes he said, I've gotta wait he said.
I'll be putting a new mattress in  er I'll be putting another mattress in.
And he said I've got to put  after dark .
What do you mean after dark?
I said.
He turned round well I've got to move about discreetly he said.
And I said erm  you talking about then?
And he said oh I've been taking it out of one of our own caravans, our own caravans he said.
new one.
Oh there we are though he said, I don't want .
He said to me  have you got it on tape?
I said no, no I haven't.
No.
And that's when he said   he said I'll be going up one night when it's dark  he said.
I'll take it out of one of our vans.
So I said what do you want me to do then, leave this mattress on the bed?
And you'll be taking it?
And I said or shall I  it might not be done then I said so I'll have to air them.
Oh yeah  he said .
That's what I'll be doing .
Yeah.
The microwave because   the microchef 
Mark  I forgot to ask you what was in the caravans, the sleeping arrangement.
Is there sleeping bags there?
Is there  quilts or what do you know?
So I said to her take Kirsty's sleeping bag.
Take your s and I said have you got a sleeping bag?
No.
I said well I gave Mark a sleeping bag and er  two blankets  and a couple of pillowcases.
There must be pillows, I'm sure of it.
And erm  I said take Kirsty's sleeping bag  and call in here for a sleeping bag  and I'll give you a couple of blankets to go with it.
And I said I'll .
So she said yes.
She wants to know do you want buy her .
For a hundred and fifty pound.
Why is she selling it?
No because er  well she said  
Well I told her today, I said look Mark said there's no money.
Or I said   the money you don't spend .
I said when you come home   trousers, what you want.
What did she say?
she said 
small ones.
Doesn't matter if they're long in the leg.
He'll have to try the trousers on .
He'll have to try the shoes on.
But he said on Wednesday  and you'll pay in the money into the bank 
Hannah was on.
Oh god yes!
Missed that and er  oh I forget where she went to.
Er Venezuela was it ?
No.
Erm where the  leaning tower of Pisa
Pisa.
Nice, that's very nice  
She don't go near a shop.
She don't spend no money now much.
Oh yes she does.
Oh yes she does.
I see, she went in the shop and she bought the bloody shop.
Did she?
A jewellers shop.
And she bought a, a cameo  brooch with a little ring on top that she could put a chain in as well.
You know, you can put the chain on it and
Yeah.
pin it on the brooch.
And she gave two thousand lira for it.
much.
It was an awful lot  cost two thousand lira .
She's going to  next week she's going to the pope.
Going to Italy and a visit to the pope.
Rome.
Er Italy he said.
But I thought er Pisa was in Italy.
Ooh.
Clare Rayner.
God I do hate her.
Look, she's getting bigger.
Mm?
She's getting bigger as years 
she talking about?
Still born babies.
What is all this?
I don't know.
What have you got?
The news and, oh yes  it's only a few minutes lovey.
Quarter past, no wait, quarter to six.
It's quarter to seven.
Has your clock stopped?
Quarter to seven.
So we've missed Highway?
We've missed the bloody lot.
Well Hannah's only just been on a second ago.
And then the news.
Mm?
Quarter to seven.
Let's have a look what you've got.
Six forty five is quarter to seven isn't it?
Mhm.
So it'll come on after this.
Mm.
It's a documentary thing.
Yes, I suppose so.
Ends, oh look   
Oh  stupid old 
Mm.
Ooh.
Oh yes.
Where's ?
No I don't know.
I dunno.
has had to tear up its election coverage plans because tory ministers are scared to meet top industrialists .
Mm.
Top industrialists, those are big business boys.
Chancellor Norman Lamont and treasury ministers were told  er  chancellor Norman Lamont and treasury ministers were to be grilled like labour spokesmen by a panel of businessmen  and just one union leader .
But there was to be  Norman Lamont and a tr and treasury ministers, three or four of them.
And there was to be the big industrialists, three or four of them.
Same as labour was done the other day.
But the tories 
but the tories have scrapped agreed plans claiming the panel is not politically balanced.
The B B C two programme is regularly pr presented by Peter Jay who's Panorama Special on the slump was controversially axed last week .
They're not willing to stand up  see erm  er what's it, Richard Dimbleby  was it Richard  or the other one?
Was  
Jonathon.
Richard's dead.
No the boy, the other boy.
Jonathon, Dick
No.
What's his name?
The other boy.
There's two boys alive.
David?
Mm.
I don't know one from the other  by name.
But the one was at him yesterday and he, well he didn't know what to say next.
He did quiz him.
That's David.
Is it?
On a Sunday.
Well  And, and er  Lamont even said  that er unemployment would get higher.
He even said so yesterday  
Can't get no bloody higher can it?
Oh it could.
Twenty two percent VAT if the tories get back.
Mm.
Jobless er tory jobless figures were exposed yesterday as a fraud.
The official unemployment total of  two  two million six hundred  and four thousand one hundred  is more than a million short of the real figure  because the tories have found  thirty ways not to count jobless people .
That right?
They say unless you've been unemployed six months you're not unemployed.
You're looking for a job.
They don't call it unemployed.
Well you can't go on the list for six weeks anyway.
Six months.
six weeks, yeah.
Well if you haven't been working for six months you are looking for a job, you are not unemployed.
They don't call that unemployment.
Course this is all  voting   propaganda again.
I mean when is it  it's a disgrace to the social service workers isn't it?
To make them wear uniform.
They're getting them like prison officers and policeman and 
Well it's the same as anywhere else.
If you work in Marks and Spencers you wear er their uniform.
If you work in the hospital you wear their uniform.
Yeah.
That's only to advertise the place though isn't it?
Marks and Spencers and 
It isn't.
If you went into your Clarke's shoe shop they've all got the same clothes.
It's it makes it so easy that  the staff, one can't dress any better than the other.
They're all equal.
When you go to places like  in the big stores  the staff have all got the same type of apron er overall.
And that's for the customer, if it needs help they know who is who to go for advice.
Yeah.
That's all it is.
But when you've got people stood behind a desk and serving you and doing nothing but serving you as you come.
They'll be wanting bank clerks to have uniforms next.
Good god bank clerks have been wearing uniforms for these last three four five years.
Oh I've never seen them.
Well 
Never seen that.
Well they all have.
It's customary to go to work dressed in black or white or suits or 
Not at all.
It's navy blue with flowered blouse they've got.
I've never seen it.
Each bank's different.
Well they've had them for years.
Well in the Midland Bank and they were wearing them the last time you were there.
The electric board wears them.
The gas board wears them.
Woolworths wear them.
Mm.
And so really it is no different, just that they are making a song about it.
But there's no need to go to that prices.
a name on.
You can have the firm's name and give them a brooch or something.
Well they've got them anyway, haven't they?
But  Val was on about it last summer.
They was talking about it then.
But she said that they had been so many months  or when everybody else had a pay rise they only had a little bit.
And the extra that they should have had is going to pay for these uniforms.
Oh.
didn't want the uniforms.
Well a percentage is taken out of your money for them.
There's no doubt about that.
Mm.
Well that's what she was on about that, and and they was  they were going 
Well everybody has got to do that.
to go on strike because of it.
And really, it would be a good thing for Val.
Why?
Well she's gotta pay so much for her bloody clothes.
She makes her own, a lot of them.
She's still gotta buy the material.
Well she would rather have her own than be dressed up like  looking like rolled doll she said.
Cos they were all on about it.
They were talking about going on strike over it, about it anyway.
Is it going to rain?
Mm.
Could have the odd little shower.
No er tonight it's supposed to rain.
David  the chief economist of Nat West Bank expects output to rise by only point six percent this year.
A much lower rate than predicted by chancellor Norman Lamont  on last week's budget.
Mr  also believes interest and mortgage rates will remain high .
So if people reads this paper  which is the, which of the papers are read the most?
Which is the most popular paper?
The Mirror and The Sun.
And Today I think isn't it?
Well The Sun is conservative.
What's Today?
Conservative.
I don't know.
Well The Sun  used to be a labour paper.
Well didn't that er Rupert Murdoch take it over?
I don't know.
Rupert Murdoch?
And he's a conservative?
He's an Australian isn't he?
Mm.
Whatever  I can't remember.
But I knew it before it was The Sun you see.
No, what do you call it?
Yes, The Sun.
It was the Daily Herald wasn't it?
When it came out first.
Ooh.
Senator Ted Kennedy revealed yesterday that he is to wed lawyer Victoria   who's father is to stand trial over an alleged  fraud.
Kennedy sixty started dating the thirty eight year old divorced mother of two last June.
I love her and her children very much  he said.
Victoria's father retired   oh he's   father's  Victoria's father, retired judge Edmund  denies fraud .
The Kennedy's are in  trouble every corner aren't they?
It's nothing to do with him.
No, but er I mean he's even marrying into trouble.
The whole of his family.
His father and all.
Remand prisoners at a top security jail used a thin mobile phone to make threatening calls to court witnesses it was revealed yesterday.
An astonished guard alerted Durham Jail chiefs when he heard a phone ringing in a cell.
A search revealed the battery operated handset hidden under a mattress.
Calls made from it were traced by police to the homes of witnesses due to give evidence in trials on Tyneside.
At least one case is understood to be involved in a murder charge.
A top level enquiry is underway into the racket.
Dubbed by prison wives the cellnet scandal after the cabinet mobile phones system.
Visitors are thoroughly searched before they are allowed in to the jail which houses two hundred remand prisoners, killers, I R A terrorists and rapists, and the investigation will examine whether a prison officer may have brought in the phone.
One senior officer said  it would be extremely difficult to smuggle one in, security is so tight here on visits .
Oh well, there's always a lapse isn't there?
What time does this budget start today I wonder?
Not that we've 
What budget?
heard it all before.
What budget?
This er, the labour giving their  oh dear 
Is Barnado's advertising?
Back again.
Oh there.
Make a credit card donation.
Or for more information about our work ring  .
Right let's go and empty the washing machine.
Put another load in.
It's not drying .
No I don't  
Although the wind is rising apparently.
Mm.
It's Des O'Connor tonight.
Oh god.
So that's something to look forward to.
They were in a meeting.
Yeah.
All of them, all of them
Yeah.
except for one 
The little one?
Aye.
Yeah.
Oh I said I wanna .
I said I've got a tape here.
I said I'm sure he'll want to listen to this?
And she said what do you mean?
I thought you were gonna go and tell him  that he'd better see me today.
I, I've got a tape here and I'm sure he's gonna be interested in this.
Or I'm taking my caravan off here right now.
Oh yes.
Get a forklift and put it in the bloody garden see.
So she said well you can't do that.
I said I bloody can do that.
That is my caravan, not yours.
I said I can do it.
And I will do it if that man's not gonna see me.
So with that  call it coincidence, call it what you like  but one of these low-loaders come in  to pick up a caravan or something like.
And I said there you are, he's there waiting to pick my caravan up.
He was empty you see.
I don't know who he was.
And she said wait here Mr  and in she goes in to this bloody meeting  and out he came.
And he said I'm sorry Mr  but you haven't got an appointment.
I said do you want me to have an appointment, do you want to listen to this tape?
Or do you want me to take my caravan off here?
He said why?
I said because I feel I'm being .
I said I'm not getting a fair square deal here.
I said and not only I think that, other people on the site think so.
He asked me if I could wait five minutes.
when I'm in there.
And Darren was on a day off and he's been .
And Darren come in  spoke to me and he says  oh I  Danny.
I said no you bloody won't.
You'll get in that office with me.
I said I want him in there.
He sold me the caravan.
And I went in there.
I says now  have you had any visitors from   a couple of nights in my caravan.
No he said.
I said I think somebody's saying some untruth to me.
I said because I've got a tape here  and there's a couple  who'll go to court if necessary.
And I said is my caravan being cleaned weekly  as people go out if they've got it for a fortnight fortnightly.
Yes he said.
I said well you play that  I said cos I've played it back.
And out he goes and gets this woman and in she comes with a chart  with a woman's name  the job number, that done it week by week or fortnight, whatever it does.
And that is all there and signed that she done the caravan.
It's her signature.
Her signature.
That the caravan is cleaned.
It's got to be he says.
He said because people  leave their dirty things and beds and all this kind of thing.
He said we cannot allow that.
Well you can understand that.
Yes, well he knows from experience.
Yes.
He said we can't allow people .
He said if something like this got out, he said, we'd be out of business.
He said and do you know that we're a multi- million pound organization.
Of course, of course .
Mm?
He said we're not .
So I said well  a couple approached my wife here on  on Saturday.
I said and they're very happy and ninety nine percent of the people on this site are happy.
Solid like.
And I said I  you tell me if I'm happy.
Cos you've gotta convince me now, this morning, or my caravan's going off here.
I said and before you start  that the caravan can't go for four years,on this tape.
Did he listen to it?
Oh yes.
Bring that here.
chicken or is it 
It's chicken.
I don't want no chicken, I just want the chips.
Do you want some lamb then?
No I just want some chips.
If you'd rather have the lamb I'll have chicken.
No no.
I just want some chips.
Do you want tea?
I'll have coffee please.
Anyway he wants to  ask when this tape goes back, if he can have a copy of it.
He rung his managing director up  there in front of me.
Mm?
At  Hemel Hempstead.
Hemel Hempstead?
Yeah.
And he said he'd got a very  
Pizza?
Yeah, please.
serious  complaint that he'd just got.
That  I'm in the office with him.
And er
he  to the managing director that I was in the office with a very serious complaint.
And making accusations.
And you were making accusations?
Yeah.
I was.
Yeah.
And he wanted to know what steps he could take.
Well Danny wanted to know if it was true.
So they asked  they wanted to know how, how we got the tape.
So I showed him that letter you had.
Mm.
And he asked me to a ask you to  when they ra give the tape back  if they could possibly supply a copy of it, of that tape  to them.
In the meantime he's gotta write to these people.
They know the people.
Mm?
To instruct them that their caravan must be taken off within twenty eight working days.
They know the people who were talking?
Yeah.
I said they would.
Mm?
And the caravan must be taken off within twenty eight working days.
Well I think it was taken off this morning.
No, it's still there.
Cos I saw that er bloke in er  park landrover.
Oh you saw him that day didn't you?
Well they're moving and hunting caravans all the time Mark.
They're on the roadways  
Yeah well he he said he said
No I'm talking about I saw, actually saw that guy who's in our caravan
Oh yeah?
in a landrover  with a  park bloke.
And all of a sudden three big juggernauts came into the camp and one of them was on the back of a truck.
They they they 
Well er er sh 
they took three off the site.
Did
She said she couldn't take it off.
No, he 
Maybe it wasn't him then.
I just thought it looked like him.
He told me it was still there and that he'd been told he's got to write to them today  and they've got to get it taken off within twenty eight days.
Yeah.
Cos she was trying to find a, a reason  or an excuse  to sue them for it.
She stated that.
Mm.
It's all on the thing.
Mm.
And he said how can they do that?
Is it in the law?
They don't break the law.
They can't afford to break the law.
No well
But you can understand that.
The thing is Danny is that they said they'd only bought the thing in July.
Well the, the, the camp is closed 
Yes.
in, in
In October, end of October.
so that was only er July to September 
Don't give them time for the 
to October.
Yeah well what they bought
Hardly two months.
was an eight year old caravan they bought
Oh brand new.
No.
Eight year old.
Six thousand pound 
Brand new she told us.
But it isn't, it's eight year old.
Brand new she told us.
That's why
Emphatically.
she had to supply the blankets and dishes and everything else.
Oh!
Coming round now aren't we?
That's what she told us, brand new.
She's looking for batter.
Does it say that on your  brand new?
Said it didn't it.
No, he just said he paid six thousand pound  on the tape, for the caravan.
Which was true.
Yeah.
Well does it say on the tape that it was brand new?
No.
Because they repeated that several times.
No, what she said was that we spent er no he said  I gave a fat cheque for the caravan.
And then he said six thousand pounds.
And he said of course the site fees are in that.
First part of the year actually.
Yes.
Yes well even so, if they bought it say the middle of July, there's July to September to October.
Er they weren't in it three months.
They didn't have it until the camp closed.
Three months.
They wouldn't have had it long enough to clear their own ground rent.
Expenses like 
Well apart from the cleaning and all that and getting a bit of profit.
Well we bought ours in August  and we had enough to clear the profit.
Yes but it was already bookings from the year before weren't it?
Mm.
It wasn't ours.
Plus the fact their bookings wouldn't be as much as yours if it's an eight year old caravan.
Mm.
No.
But you'd have thought by her that it was immaculate.
It was a luxury thing, yeah.
No.
It was eight year old.
Wonderful how you  isn't it ?
Yeah.
This man  this Mr  wants to meet you, to apologize to you
Oh.
whatever.
For the  discomfort, the upset that you went through  with having to listen to her.
While I was there Mr  was the other side of the counter.
But we enjoyed ourselves didn't we?
We enjoyed it.
And he just dived into the bloody office.
When you were in the caravan.
No.
this people.
With the fire?
With the people.
With these people.
This man and woman.
Yeah?
He wasn't there then was he?
No.
Go on.
No.
Well that's what he wanted to apologize to you for.
Yeah.
Whereas it isn't his place to apologize is it?
No but he feels that
Guilty.
that you've been er
Put upon.
Yes.
as he said stamped on, he said.
Mm.
Well it were unwarranted.
But it was a bit of a surprise, strangers coming to the door.
Well I couldn't believe it.
I wondered what the hell she wanted.
So he see he said  she did come here.
I have spoken to her twice.
And explained everything to her.
And if she wanted to go in a silver olympic then  I needed to explain to her that she must buy a silver olympic caravan  to have the guaranteed bookings.
Mm.
Mm.
Oh they hadn't got
No.
that was the difference then, they hadn't got 
She'd got a square one in the middle like.
Sh they hadn't got er guaranteed bookings?
It doesn't come under the same scheme.
Have you stirred this?
Oh maybe not.
That's a new one.
Oh mother!
Go on I'm busy.
It would have been me pencil if I'd had a pencil in me hand.
Sure they do the work anyway.
Was he annoyed cos I'd taped it?
No.
He was annoyed at the bloody woman letting me have .
Buy by god he made that woman come in there.
Cos everybody in  Park is responsible for
For their own.
for a section.
Yeah.
Like Darren is responsible for sales.
Mm.
And that other one is responsible for the paperwork.
And that bloke is responsible for seeing that everything is put in place.
Mm.
And this woman is responsible for all the cleaning staff.
And you know that is one hundred and eighty people on the s cleaning staff in the season.
I dare say.
One hundred and eighty people.
Mm.
a couple of thousand more people there isn't there.
Mm.
To clean for.
And he said   he said  they've got eight hundred caravan parks throughout the country.
Mm.
And this is the smallest,park.
Mm.
And he said I've been with them twenty nine years.
He said I started off with them when I left school.
And he's been there twenty nine years.
Was it a surprise to him Danny?
Yeah well he said he hasn't heard nothing like it before.
And he said he, they even mention my name, he said.
Yeah.
That is the only name on the tape.
Cos she didn't tell us her name.
She didn't ask us our name.
Yeah
yeah
the kids can ring him tonight
Ring you?
Ah?
Ring you
caravan 
Oh well, he'll, he'll have to wait until the car to get a car
You win the caravan?
mm
What date?
Saturday
This Saturday coming?
Yeah
eh 
I don't think I could remember cos I've got physiotherapy tomorrow at the hospital
mm
mm
mm
right
So when you having the car back do you think?
Friday but they're not making a promise, but they said that last week
Yeah
and have it back Saturday and then they ring up two hours later saying it's another week and a half again
Yeah
rang this morning
Yeah
and he said he was
yeah
yeah
yeah
yeah
mm
right, right
mm
Well it, and it feels nice and clean
no, it feels clean
don't matter, it just feels clean, I've had it short and shaped, have a good shape on it  and do you know the next time you have it cut  I don't know  you want looking at, now the next time you go, go to the Darrow in Milford  yeah  because you're in problems and they know you need it  because he'll give you a good shape on it  and then you have it shaped once a month or once every three weeks or once a fortnight and keep it looking nice that way and it's four pounds, four ninety nine, four ninety, four seventy five  yeah  but just keep it nice and shaped  and it won't look any different, there ain't nothing wrong with it  mm  mm  mm  no  no  right, right, right tra la
And when she came, when her mother came then she was blonde
weren't she?
A real old blonde
I've only seen her once
the car do we?
Yeah, that's one
Blonde
Ain't got a blonde hair in her bloody head, no it's all grey
Perhaps she'd like
then, like a vitamin A
What is vitamin A?
No it's not
have they put her on a diet?
Yeah
They've given her something and she, she had to put this stuff on her hair, had to take a trip to the hairdresser  and he said to the hairdresser comb my hair first and then put this stuff on  and wait for a fortnight and it did come a little lighter, but it wasn't much
well there you are she's been going to
oh don't tell me that
What?
she is always going to the hairdresser and having her hair frizzed oh, oh god 
No she doesn't 
oh
no she does not
oh, she might peculiar hairdresser
she's got her hair cut and she put her heated thing on the bottom of it, rollers 
Well that's just the thing you do with it
Oh god no it's not 
that's nothing , burn your hair like that
that doesn't touch the roots,
You never 
You never put the colour in her hair, nothing
Oh she doesn't have to put colour in, she's had a go at it, I've seen her doing it herself
What?
er hot tongs and all that proper caper 
They're not heated , it's a heated roller
yeah well it hasn't 
it's not 
always been a heated roller
Yes it has 
Thank god when you was up in Liverpool up there somewhere, and she was working in that factory, she was at it every day, I was
The doctor had been he's seen her and he told her it's a hormone deficiency, nothing to what she done to her hair 
All she's supposed to do now is wait till it grow again
If it grows, or she can lose the lot
I'll have to have a wig
Eh?
Well she'll have to have a wig
She said no, she said, he told her if she wanted to go to the expense of a wig, she could get a wig and she wear it when she went out, but when she comes in the house she must take it off, she must not wear that wig
only
It would
so I said as soon as you get your hair cut and shaved, then you're better off without your wig, leave it well alone, she said that's what I'm gonna do, that's what she's gonna do
Leave it alone
she does wanna get a wig and cover it
doctor said she could if she wanted to
Yeah
only wear it to go out
and that, and there's a possibility then, that her hair will grow again
said it looked alright, but to me she said it's terrible because it's so short, I've never had it this short in my life  but he said it looked OK
Mm
she was going to fairly soon after the accident
West Hill development, two to three bedroom bungalow for her
Oh god  it's good innit?
perhaps he wanted to get in with her
West Hill development
And all that houses here are waiting to be sold and  nobody seems to want, poor old house is getting
for waiting
Oh ours is the poshest
They don't, once they're empty they don't take long till they sell it  over there and there
Its everywhere isn't it?
how are
I would think the D H S S take over a bit but then they haven't got money all the time to find
go without, but at least they're having the money back aren't they?
Yes, and
not paying out for it all the time
put them into upstairs and downstairs flats
mm
you'd
as quick as possible 
Right, pushing you in?
That board comes in
pushing you in, there you are
everything always
What, I don't but er  it isn't often you see often you see, there isn't a lot of long red books about  well here's a good big one
No
innit?
Mm
Oh Mark said he saw those people going from there this morning.
No he said he saw, said he saw them there again this morning
Oh
but he said that
in a Landrover and he thought
had a van, but the spare room I told Danny that he's got to get off in a
he couldn't, it might not have been him cos I didn't think
no and we didn't see where they were, oh well
Yeah we'll do it on the way back
Oh, sure of the time.
I hope they can do it.
Oh you went to doctors will you 
Yeah , well look at the time and I said got
in here
Oh god, oh god, oh
that bloody dog last night I could've wrung his neck, mm I could've, he just didn't damn well stop 
Eh?
Oh he's
Oh dear
Nothing at all is there one that does er painting?
Yeah
no Easter
I don't know what painting's out, look at all these
but er, it's, it's a nice position
I know, there's steps all the way up the front
Yeah
go in
if you, if you
you know if you're young it's, it's good, it's a nice
I think that, every one of these in the area must be coming down
now you mind, my god, I didn't
he needs me  a new home
oh dear I could rest
Another shop opened here where the chip shop was  ooh it is a chip shop
Ah?
Where are you going?
Well I will go
Eh?
will go home, I want take me coat off before I
Why?
Because it will be one thing less to do
Why do you
no wind, no nothing to disturb the atmosphere 
Cold innit?
No it's not  oh 
What?
Why?
Perhaps he don't know when he'll be coming
None of these are parking in you know when you pick the kids up from school
Getting the kids now?
Mm
mm, mm 
Did they have in the road this wide, when they could've had
a waste like that, it's a pure waste now
Yeah,
and made the road up a bit wider all the way, room for passing
The house going up next to the launderette
Yeah
or is it extending onto the pub?
Funny innit?
Stupid idea
The height, with your bloody shoes on, cos I was gonna say I'm five foot and a half inch and I'm taller than you
Yeah
and then I said oh look at the bloody heels you've got on  oh my god  can't get in there 
and er
you won't have time to make a row
Eh?
There won't be time to make a row  who, oh, what a minute, erm 
I'm doing it 
The last one need a stand?
and I think this one's gone
yeah
Erm twenty four 
And she's got a bag whether she's been shopping or, I
you know she's got stamps with her an'all 
Ooh,excuse me 
Me feet
there's that man going down there, now, see, thank god he's deaf
Look at the camellias that's come out
Ooh lovely
It's gonna be a mass of bloom innit?
Yeah
And I've seen them for years and years, twenty odd more than that years, beautiful,
Oh, erm when you was in the front office er, Mr and Mrs 
Yeah
he's got two dogs with them
he's got another one
I, you say 
they've got three dogs
Yeah
well they still have three dogs
Well let's see he's got that old brown one, you know
Mm
and that's er can, a little black er, oh scotty looking thing
Mm
you know like that is only a black one
Mm
he's gonna go
Can you imagine the bloody things on in house
And they're only little tiny rooms
Yeah
and, and now she's got a grey whippet thing
Yeah  It makes you wonder where the hell he can put them.
I wonder why he keeps them?
Er, I don't know what his job is, is he a manager or is he unemployed at the moment?
Er I was thinking they kept dogs in room
He's the manager of Milford office
Yeah, but er there's no money kept in or anything like that
No
but little, people couldn't break in for erm 
Are you coming in
well there's no need
keep that in case you got to pay for it, it er, you won't do it now this moment
Erm, forty or fifty seven in bulk and erm
beech, copper beech
mm, so you'll be more than welcome to come over, you will be
Father
we will speak as the symbols of
and the
Where, where, where down by the
It's right in the centre of the village Danny, it's the
and erm
Let's have a look
I mean in the meantime I'll be
and I've got er
No we don't do anything like that, but you might be able to get that 
oh
from the National st , erm the National
I get twenty pence coming from them you see er
A new one in, where the 
but yeah it should go well 
no, it's another one 
it should go well
in the
precinct, yeah, where, they've got wedding dresses in the windows outside 
and it was 
we could have erm
and you go up in there, there on the right hand 
Ah, right
Erm, what is there
but that
what is that still in the loft?
But yeah
No, it isn't, it's the gremlins in the corner over there, it's alright
OK
thanks very much
Thank you very much indeed
Thanks
Mm
No, I he say I tell you where I get that he said, because
There's one going 
I know they put flowers all twisting up it and over it and round about it  and now's the weather to get the job done and get it finished, look at the weeds growing up through the garden
put that spray on it and kill it
and of course they've got to be careful in case they kill the grass and around the outside is what
It don't last
and it's like that and they haven't finished it
I think it is moving a little bit
The little ones go out on their own
Mm 
and there's a white one coming in look over the end of the jetty there
Oh yes 
Good god you'd think erm , to, er put the piles on that.
Don't they?
Mm
Mm
Oh I, nothing in the cupboard
Yes that
Yes I put me belt on through
he's out of home now, he never used to be
No
he use to have his own house, last year he went into it  you'd think they'd get some of it and to weed the gardens
pass the time
looks to me as though he can hardly walk 
that was his feet 
They must be coming up to er  rush time
Yeah, and a lot of
Anything exciting going on here?
Perhaps
has took his contract over  because he can't afford to put more of them, mm
No, and if they do that sort of thing they can charge the earth for it
No they can't charge any more than what they've got now, because they can't bloody sell it, look at her 
Ah, it's a right teaser
Good enough innit?
That's ah Mrs  bloody dog  oh bugger it, why should she have to clean it up, she should take it, put it in the bag and post it to the environmental health
Mm
That'll do them a favour wouldn't it?
Once, you would think he, she wouldn't have seen it or she wouldn't have
No
I can just see David doing it
and he said of all the places along that road, they have to come and do it outside his
Well it might as well be outside his as somebody else's
Well that's what I said to him, why not yours  he only just cut it, that couple of grandsons they've all done it all up
Well that's ripe and fresh and juicy
Oh well  you'll have to write that date down in your book now
Yeah 
what did you say twenty second?
Yeah
mm you bring your book cos you don't think to look at the card 
Give us a car, look at this car
Oh that's a nice one innit?
Green
Oh
It's an antique.
Running the roads
Mm?
Running the roads
Oh it's not out very often
Yeah, that's not very often 
Where we used to stay in
people there they've got a good
an enormous thing like a Rolls or a Daimler or a
mm
Very, very expensive cars, they use big
I don't know but they used to go
but they didn't really used to go
There's some more planning going on here
No
If you pay for
you wouldn't buy that for a grand off them people he said at no price
belongs to the  the garage
belongs to the 
Why?
It's behind
it ain't harming nobody
Oh well it's down the corner, it, you know, they build on it, you're entitled to go on it
No, it's behind the shop
where that rubbish all is 
blowing this way
What the hell is this white car?
Stranger in the camp
Mm?
Down you come and put it away 
What?
Yeah 
Mark reckons they've done a good job on the water have they?
Well    I don't know.
When we were at the flat  er  I'm not quite sure, I think the one was a Tuesday and the other was a Sunday, when there was a bus used to go down to Tenby
the bus?
Mm.
It still does.
Mm
It still does.
Does it?
Well Mrs er   and her family, you know, used to go down there.
Because we went once or twice.
What, on the bingo bus?
Mm.
They used to go about  one o'clock.
Yeah.
And pick up at quarter past seven at night.
Oh they're still 
Quarter past six.
Oh six I mean and then they come back at 
they're still going down?
ten, eleven o'clock.
This one went down in the afternoon.
After dinner.
come back about 
What ?
nine to ten.
Unless they've scrapped the noon sessions.
But the main bingo bus that  used to go used to go about six.
Quarter past six.
Oh I don't know, this was an afternoon bus.
You know, early afternoon.
And  used to go on it.
Mm?
It erm  well I dunno cos if you were in bingo they would say the bingo bus goes at 
Oh we didn't go to bingo.
But it was  though.
Well that must have been just a bus going.
Well.
Perhaps they were having two sessions, afternoon and evening.
Maybe.
They'd of announced it wouldn't they?
I dunno.
Won't be long then.
Ta ra Danny.
Is this thing on?
Mm.
Won't be long.
Can you see the moss?
Look.
It's all round here.
Mm.
Look at it all here, brightening up.
Mm.
Look at it picking up.
It's our summer coming .
Yeah, look at it.
Everywhere.
And look at that.
Clover all in it.
Yeah.
Well I'd rather have clover than bloody moss.
I don't know what I can do with it.
He won't.
I told him last summer about it.
Well I think it's cheating  
If I knew where it had come from I would do it.
Mm.
Look at this little one coming up here.
That's  
Oh there's our chimney having a smoking session.
Is it?
Aye.
Right.
Now there's somebody behind us.
Look at these  baskets.
Mm.
They're only baskets to keep the birds off.
Oh.
Oh Danny's been in this bloody car.
Don't know how he does it.
Yeah?
Look there's the chimney.
phaw 
Oh oh my goodness yes.
stinking.
of it.
Poof.
I'd like to see the flames go whoof out of the top.
Yes and me.
And the smoke coming up thick and heavy.
Look how those yellow flowers are coming out pretty.
Mm.
Couple of days makes all the difference.
Who is  's fish and chips?
Well  's fish and chips.
Is that their name?
Yeah.
Mr and Mrs ?
Mhm.
Oh.
Oh!
It just looks foggy over here now.
Yes.
She said it was going to be foggy tonight.
Mm.
Daffs are looking nice aren't they?
Yeah.
I've got indigestion since dinner.
Yes and me.
Oh my god, it's terrible.
See if it was warmer and dryer, I'd go out there and I'd rake that  lawn.
Yeah.
Cut it short and I'd rake hell out of it.
Yeah.
And then I would pour moss killer over it.
Then you've gotta rake it again.
Well I I think it's a whole summer's job isn't it?
Well how else can you get rid of it?
No, well it is.
To clean a lawn like that, is a whole summer's job.
You've gotta rake it
Yeah.
and rake it and rake it.
Then nobody else'll do it, so I've gotta do it.
And even if you dig it up  turn it over and start again  that moss is in it isn't it?
That's it.
The seeds are there.
No I would say it's er  it's er bunging the ground up.
It's not aerating the ground at all.
You know the  the air can't get into the ground  to let the grass grow.
It'll just take over.
Have you got a book that tells you what to do?
I dunno.
I've gotta read about it.
Wednesday today.
Mm.
He's still up on the roof then.
he's been reading his horses.
Waiting to cross the road perhaps.
Bloody hiding from somebody by the look of it.
Waiting to see if they've come out.
what's running on the two thirty  wants to be there in time.
That's way down the road.
That's what I say, perhaps he's waiting to cross and come down here.
Well he's got a long wait.
You haven't stood at the side of the pavement.
Mm mm.
Now if this bloody electric board is shut
Again.
What does it 
Oh god damn no.
I'll catch it now before it does.
Oh  it is open.
Yeah because you've gotta go
Yeah.
to the post office.
This ruddy thing.
I'll be glad when they move it back.
It's not much help to anyone.
No,You'll have to hurry he'll be shutting the door in a minute.
Yeah hang on, I've gotta go to the gas board first.
Okay  see you .
.
All the best now.
Thank you.
Enjoy it.
I will.
Bye now.
Bye.
to switch me off at the flat.
Do you think you could switch me back on?
I want some hot water to clean up 
Well it is a final account.
One Chestnut Way?
Yeah.
Yeah this is a final account.
I've got no lights see.
Pardon?
I've got no lights out there.
No  
No well you see you've finalized now.
You took a final reading.
This is the final account, so that means that you've finished altogether with the property.
If you go back in then 
I see 
and turn the supply back on
Yeah.
well whoever moves in then will have to pay, you know
Mm.
You'll have to sign back up for it if you're gonna use it.
Well I've got no I can't get hot water to, to wash out you know, before I leave it.
hand the keys back Monday you see?
You shouldn't have taken a final reading until you left.
I didn't  I didn't 
This is a final.
O A is final.
Oh they must have done that then, the meters were in a room outside you see.
Well somebody .
I mean you don't  
No.
The supply is still on there.
Yeah.
So I mean there's no reason why you can't get hot water, it's just that erm 
it's just that with this it means that you've finalized it in your name.
So whoever's going  sign up for it.
You'll have to fill in another form now.
Well  just have normal electric then I suppose.
Well it's just, it isn't off, it's off, just off at the mains.
Oh.
the whole quarter.
But there's no electricity at all, it's black see.
Can't get lights or nothing on.
So there must be something wrong.
Yeah but they haven't been there to disconnect.
No but I mean there must be something electrical, a fault, an electrical fault of something.
Well you'll have to get in touch with the council.
Yeah 
Alright?
Because the 
Er a small loaf of bread please.
Erm
A tin, a cob or a batch?
Now then 
Now it's decision time, your choice.
Erm batch I think.
I haven't had one of them for a long time.
It's make up your mind time.
Yes.
Fattening time, that's the trouble.
When you start you never stop with them.
Great, thanks.
Thank you very much.
Weather's getting better isn't it?
Yes it is.
Slowly but surely.
Fine, as long as it comes.
Yeah.
End of the month and it'll be great.
Ta ra
Bye.
Did you make a note on the day you posted ?
I dunno.
I might have done.
I dunno.
No   cos if I haven't heard in a fortnight you know you're not getting any in.
Amelia what?
Amy Johnson.
Mm.
Aerhart somebody.
Oh.
Mm 
Mm.
Aerhart She's the woman before Amy Johnson.
She crashed.
Her.
She didn't survive did she?
Amy Johnson did.
Tom Jones and oh  they've got a lot of old ones 
Alistair Sims.
Oh
Save them making new.
Yes.
Save the money 
The kids of today haven't seen them.
Save the money, well they were better  things than what they get today.
Yeah.
So maybe the the 
But the kids of today haven't seen them.
maybe the taste is going backwards.
Mm.
Well it does go round in circles they see don't they?
There's Little John look.
Mm.
Ah well.
Well it's been dry for another day.
Oh christ 
?
No.
You want a Brighton rats?
Do you want to buy some rats.
Oh.
To eat.
She's hungry look.
Is there nothing better than that on?
I don't know.
No
That's Africa.
Rowan Atkinson.
Ooh.
We have gifts for mother's day from March the twenty ninth.
Where?
Ooh.
They don't tell you where do it?
No.
Oh the National  the erm the Midland is joining up with
With Japan.
with Japan and somewhere else now.
Mhm.
Well there's there's er  more Japanese trade done in this country than British, so 
Mm.
So we've got no knitting.
No.
No sewing.
I've got some mending.
Have you?
Well, I've got to shorten my trousers.
Have you made  fit?
Have I what?
You know, have you got to cut the bottoms off?
Yeah.
Well I dunno, yes, I think so.
Yes.
Too big.
Cut the hem off anyway.
Africa again look.
It's Malaysia.
Ooh.
Look at her eating corn.
Mm.
Vegetable market look.
Look at the kite.
Mm.
What if that got tangled up in an aeroplane passing?
No,
Yes, yes.
Aeroplanes  
Oh they're used to it then.
Oh what are they all cooking?
sold in the shop I expect.
the rubber trees is it?
Mm.
Or  
Look there, he's just chipping round the bark.
er sap out of the bark.
running out.
Rubber.
That'd kill a tree won't it?
No.
No.
They only just touch the bark, they don't cut the trees.
Yeah but if you run the sap all out.
Well er the tree makes the sap.
It's a rubber tree.
It doesn't look like a rubber tree  
Well it isn't it isn't rubber, it's just a resin that converts.
It's converted to rubber.
Yeah but it didn't look like a rubber tree.
Wonder if Margaret's packed?
No.
Margaret packed?
No.
Well who's she gonna get to pack?
I'm certain.
John always used to, I don't know whether he's still
John or Richard.
But you never hear them er about them do you?
No, John is her  friend of er  oh I don't  friend of what's his name  her husband, Margaret's husband.
Oh.
Harry.
Does she ever see him now?
Occasionally.
The they don't have anything er she won't talk to him.
She, you know  but  time of day sort of thing, a few words.
They live a good way apart.
Mm.
I oh a long long way apart.
I think, I'm not sure  but he's down near erm  is it Los Angeles or er San Francisco?very often.
But they have met.
Ooh   isn't it?
Mm.
Chinese.
Don't hear much about China.
And that's only what somebody, somebody has brought out and put together like.
It's not er  official news.
All got strange names haven't they?
That isn't er China is it?
That's er Malaysia chiefly.
Mm.
But it seems, according to him now, times are better in Malaysia.
On the line 
And if they've got the fire on.
And when it's cold it's bloody cold in there.
Oh well that's only in the night isn't it?
Well that's when you want to put it on isn't it?
I mean er it isn't cold.
It isn't cold here at night  in my room and my room is cold.
Well it shouldn't be.
Well it is Jo.
It's colder than, than you're room up there.
Cos it's got thermal bricks on.
Oh well.
And polystyrene lined.
Most places  
There is a grey blanket missing.
Oh well you won't have them to wash will you?
Mm?
You won't have them to wash will you?
No.
They've took the grey one .
Anything I can do?
Not really.
And they didn't even  paper and pencil.
Oh well.
More for the next time.
Anything exciting there?
I don't know er  no not really.
But er  no.
You can't really tell what's on the programme by the  of them can you?
Not really.
High Road.
Oh we can  High Road at er  ten past five.
And isn't there on in the afternoon as well?
Yeah.
And that's the lot I think.
They've a double page story of a  of a  er  Glenys er
Kinnock?
Glenys Kinnock.
Listen  Russian officers were trying to sell four stolen nuclear artillery shells to Iran  for six million pounds each  a German T V station claimed .
They're desperate for money see.
Mm.
So they've gotta do it.
And all these Russian scientists with, you know, sending up these  rockets in the air, they're going to go over to Iraq.
Course they are.
Well if there isn't one way there's another, you know?
Iraq's got the money to pay them.
Crooked bosses can easily steal their workers' pension cash  MP's revealed in a shock report.
They can exploit tax laws to raid benefits by design.
Workers may also lose out through innocent   says the Commons Social Security Committee Report.
The, the committee which has been probing  probing  the massive pensions theft by former Mirror publisher Robert Maxwell warns that this could be just the tip of the iceberg.
Other schemes may not be as secure  as staff believe it says.
The Committees urge the next government to bring in tough new pension laws .
Maggie's er fan was fired.
Anybody can  you know  di er diddle the pension laws.
I mean like er Mark now, if he's paying in to pension for his firm, they can do what they like with it.
Yeah?
And he hasn't got a say.
Well that's gotta be seen to.
Mm.
Queen mum spots shamrock nut .
Well look at it.
Hm big old tufts round their hats isn't it?
Well look at that one.
Oh it's down over his eyes.
He's   Well I think she's pretty silly to come and sit out there in the rain and disturb the  I suppose it it  perhaps it is under cover I suppose.
No.
But er  The mo monster raving luny party
Mm.
could have it's own television election.
Mm.
He funds that all himself.
Oh and there's, there's a bit in there somewhere  where a lot of er the  the tory party  the tory central party, what do they call it?
Has been writing to big businesses for money to help their funds.
And it's  stuck it in the paper somewhere that er  Branson has given money and er  oh you know lots of other people in big business have given money.
And they've not.
And er they're wanting their name taken off their lists.
They're tory members you see.
They, you know they are members.
Mm.
Paid up members.
But they're wanting out of their business.
And this erm  this was er announced over telly last night  five thousand Brits were urged yesterday to leave Libya
Oh.
because the United Nations considers plans to ban all flights to the arab country
Mm.
because of the Lockerbie bombing .
Cos those men got away with it.
Mm.
And he won't let them come here.
Oh I don't  this erm  Midland Bank, have you seen griffin's eyes?
The Hong Kong Bank wanted them to do that or something.
Because in nineteen ninety  nineteen hundred and nine is it?
What's it now?
Two.
Nineteen ninety nine  China's going to take over Hong Kong.
And that's why the Japs wanted the British in there .
Mm.
Did you see this er body on the bal balcony?
An old woman sat on a freezing balcony 
Oh yeah.
Where was that?
Stockholm.
What?
Stockholm.
Stockholm.
Stockholm is in Denmark I think.
See Ian next door  shopping with him to.
I know  I know .
Whether he's living with them!
Cos he isn't home as much as he used to be.
Is that the eldest one?
Yeah.
He's only home at weekends.
I couldn't see a car.
Ooh, Christ it's cold!
Oh !
A woman and her
That's nice innit?
Mm.
A woman and her little girl  a tiny little girl , about four I should think.
I don't know what she wants to be.
she stuck the kid in the back of the car and  put the grocery in  and she picked her up and brought her into the front seat,ti , tied her in  and and the  the, the, the, this thing was coming about
you know?
Oh yeah!
She shouldn't 
It was 
be there!
She was kicking her feet about!
She didn't like it anyway!
Well perhaps there wasn't room for her sit in the back!
But you 
gotta make bloody room!
You mustn't put them in the front!
You can be summons now for it!mm mm  mm mm mm .
Please don't change!
Oh!
Am I disturbing you?
No.
Not at all!
It'll keep smaller than that when they're brushed.
Ha!
Ah well!
Been mowing the grass, yeah?
Yeah.
Oh!
Tea bags!
I'll have to go back up!
Tea bags  and no veg!
And a light bulb.
That veg is too dear at Wrexham Davis isn't it?
Oh it's rubbish!
It's dear and it's dying!
I've never seen nice veg there!
Major road works and Fishguard.
The main street is closed.
Oh.
Mm!
Mm mm  mm mm .
Oh!
Mm!
It's a doctor.
He's been for .
No,.
Unless he's got a monthly account and he keeps it in a book!
I doubt that very much!
It's his shopping list and all the bloody  curry things he needs !
Are you coming in?
Mm.
What you lost?
My book mark.
I don't know, it went in the book.
But I couldn't find it.
He was driving a ruddy big Rover anyway!
Oh ey 
So his wages is alright!
Paying him well!
Must be in the thing.
Can't see it.
no.
Perhaps it isn't there.
Where do I get the mud on these wheels?
We might as well go rou , oh I don't know!
Will they chase us if we went in there.
Oh, somebody would, yes!
Someone got to have it.
Ha?
You can't go through here can you?
Mm.
Yeah.
This stool, that's a nice big one!
Nice little coffee table!
Like that stool!
Mm.
Look at this, phone table.
All your bits and pieces in the draws 
Pieces and books.
and close it.
In the draws.
That's nice innit?
And this one goes into a table.
Nice!
Look at that!
That'll do, if anything.
Look at the price!
Reduced to clear!
It was two thousand, one hundred.
They're nice!
Oh, a nice seat there!
Do you wanna sit?
No.
and get out.
Yeah.
I wanted to have a look at the price of their erm  Chanderel Look at this little chair!
Ah, go on
What for?
for knitting.
Sit on him and try it.
Bit .
Is it?
It is.
Well, I dunno, you bounced into it didn't you?
Yeah but  if your behind was down in it.
Ha !
Don't always do it like that.
No.
It isn't really worth my .
That's all your getting for it.
Mm mm, mm mm mm .
the brown sugar isn't it?
The caster sugar  try and get .
Have you got any bags of dried fruit?
Which one do you want?
The large one  
No,.
No.
Oh!
Are you !
Oh, well this is the wrong way am I?
Oh!
Well that's  understandable.
What about ?
Ah lovely!
Oh great!
Thank you 
very much.
A bit of bread 
It's alright.
Thank you.
What do you want?
Do you want currants?
Oh that was nice!
What?
.
Yeah .
.
Nope 
Mm mm mm mm  mm mm mm mm mm mm  mm .
Anything exciting?
No.
Nope That's it then.
That's it.
Yeah.
What you got here then?
Hot prawn crackers.
Mm mm!
Sounds nice don't it?
Mm, no thank you!
Hot prawns is a  prawn and curry.
and all sort of 
Yeah.
And they gone and got.
Oh, razor blades for Tony!
Oh dear!
Erm
Got plants in there.
Down here.
Rennies, Settlers.
Nope Tesco's sell them.
I can't see any here either!
I don't know what to look for.
Razor blades.
Never mind, we'll have a look in Tesco's.
No.
You get them in  Tesco's cheaper.
Mm.
Mm mm mm  mm mm mm mm mm .
There's your book marker.
All with tassels  
Please do not move them,.
Oh!
I don't know!
I had it in the car to
Mm, and you can't  
took it in my hand and my pictures in the bag.
That's a word search.
No.
What is that then?
Oh God!
A  paper slider and a 
That's  innit?
Ha.
One thirty five.
It's a word search.
Mm mm mm mm mm mm .
And Cilla's big day!
There's razor blades up there.
They're not them though.
No  I don't know what you're looking for.
Purple one it is.
Ah  .
Yeah alright then .
Thanks.
It is all there is it?
Yeah.
Or leave them in the trolley.
You can leave them in the trolley.
You, leave them there can you .
And then I can go across  across this
Oh sorry!
it's .
It's .
Do you mean we have to get our  trolley from outside?
No, I'm not sure 
Sure?
it'll be necessary .
.Did you have this  ?
No, I did as a matter of fact.
I was gonna look at the  skeletons.
It's a waste of time.
Oh I don't know.
Okay?
The moths  
Have you got ?
Mm.
They might.
You want the pate anyway?
Yes.
Shall I go and have a look and 
Shall I?
I'll come for this okay?
Yeah, okay.
There was er
powdered , you can buy anything now!
What's that?
Home  cook book.
Prime Minister   down.
You'll have to wait   soup.
Oh I opened a fresh one.
Oh !
The film, look!
That's a picture innit?
Well I have seen it there.
But I don't what price it is.
Mm.
Dark, rich blooded, it's a wa waste of  innit?
Well what can I do?
It's going to rot altogether!
What the hell we got here?
Lilies, of assortment.
Would they  that?
Oh, yeah false  ro rockery plants  
Look at these little tiny things!
Alpine.
Ah ha!
They want a damn good touch!
What?
They want huge  or something.
Well it's only a tiny box !
What did she want her epsom salts for?
I've seen that  
It 
.
What else you got there?
It's for the garden.
Give it the horses they  
No , it's for the garden.
Here!
It's in these boxes here.
Somewhere.
But these are plant killers!
What?
This is fertiliser  for strong leaf growth.
See this is one I've put on.
They're wedged in.
Lawn sand controls moss for a beautiful lawn.
That controls it.
Ah, that'll kill it.
Moss killer!
.See  it kills moss in minutes.
Prevents it for months!
Once, one treatment lasts all the season.
Rapidly greens up the lawn.
This effect lasts  for about four weeks!
No, that's eight pound  in four weeks.
Every four weeks, yeah.
The best thing is to cut it all off and just put  it means we've gotta get a bit more soil and a bit covered, to pull it off.
See this  use at any time  and repeat as required for  treat in the autumn or the spring.
It doesn't say .
Quickly kills moss, algae and lichen on lawns, paths, fences and .
Helps to control diseases on lawns.
A little bottle.
Apply  over  twe , twenty five foot, square feet  how much is twenty five square?
What is that front lawn?
About a hundred square feet?
Sure to be.
We want two of these.
No, I wouldn't say that!
Oh, yes it's nothing!
Hundred square feet is nothing!
I thought it's a hundred but it  it's getting on.
More than fifty.
Oh they're all bloody disgusting aren't they?
They will be!
Mm.
A second application may be necessary after one month to control the more stubborn weeds.
Yeah.
It don't say moss!
No.
Moss, a bloody thing on it's own!
It's not, that's a lawn food and weed killer.
Yes.
No.
Yes, it is moss killer, look.
Mm.
But this is  debris.
Mm.
Here you are  for best results  treat autumn or spring.
Now is the time then.
Yeah.
No, I'll get some of that sand and throw on it first.
Why should I waste my money!
It's gotta be done.
?Ah?
I think there's no other way  would  take it off and .
You've gotta treat the soil after.
Well  I dunno.
How would you put the paving stones down?
!
Mm?
You have to put .
Well  yes.
You could leave a hole in the middle  to put a plant or a tree or something in it.
You fill the middle bit with
Ah, that's it.
Isn't it?
I think so.
Mm, I  glass, look!
Mm.
It's expensive glass!
Nice  up there!
Mm.
This is Darlington glass!
That is nine fifty.
Oh!
Oh yes, this one?
Eight fifty.
No.
It wasn't .
Oh no!
it isn't the same.
Yeah well, the three  there.
here  like this one here.
Eight fifty is on the end down there.
Ah well!
Dan isn't so bothered about it!
Is he?
Ah?
He isn't so bothered about it!
Well he's sure he wouldn't spend that money !
Very silly of him in the first place!
Who  Dan?
Yes.
No, before I 
got there.
I'll get these.
Thirty five  six pound  
Oh, thirty!
Thirty, yeah.
Fifty.
One forty eight.
There we are!
Many thanks!
Great!
very much.
You don't er  sell er  Gillette razors the ba erm
What sort of razor have you got?
Oh, mark two.
No, I think you've got the plus there haven't you?
.
Yeah, right.
Sorry!
Thanks.
Changed the shop window again!
Mm.
You going upstairs again?
I don't know,!
I don't know!
I buy you 
a quick 
A   for me.
.
Ah?
What?
He's come down off .
.They're all coming down off the bloody erm  .
!
All come off .
Which is the nearest?
Like meeting at the market!
isn't it?
Going to the market.
Oh!
God that wind's gone cold!
I say that's a draft  coming across us !
Mm!
See that man.
Mm?
Doctor .
He's aneis anaesthetist
Oh.
Oh God  have knocked across!
Mm mm mm, mm mm mm mm mm .
Oh!
It is cold!
Innit?
Mm mm mm mm  mm mm mm mm mm  mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm  mm mm mm mm mm mm mm .
Porgh 
Oh, look at this!
I'll erm  it'll be cheaper to go and two bags of bloody sand!
And throw it on.
But that won't kill it!.
No, it drains it, see.
Ah.
How does it drain it?
Makes the ground too dry for it to grow on.
You're wasting your money!and get this   the grass, the moss through.
It's a devil of a thing, moss!
I knew those bloody people!
Oh ey Yeah, they were  new ones.
I didn't think he would!
I don't know why!
Well he don't know anything about gardening, you see!
But I bloody would!
And, and Lincolnshire, now just think  Lincolnshire  is a county full of woods  it, it's a
What's that gotta do with it?
It's in the New Forest.
It's a  full and full of, full of woods!
What's Lincolnshire gotta do with it?
Because he says it's Lincolnshire !
No, he didn't!
He said it's Nottingham!
He   Oh!
Nottingham.
And you buy Nottingham grass seed.
And grow your own turfs.
I don't know  about the .
And I thought they're no   woods  forest.
Robin 
Nottingham!
Hood's forest, innit?
Lincolnshire.
Nottingham!
Sherwood Forest  is in Nottingham!
I said I think it's forest innit?
But it's in Nottingham!
Oh yes, well
But you buy the seed!
Grass seed!
Nottingham seed.
Yeah, well that's grown special, for the seed.
But this is, evidently out of somebody's own wood.
You cut down two trees and the  the grass has been left and they  took advantage of the bit that was there.
Where did he get the address from?
The  the  you know
I don't know!
Out the 
recommendation?
paper I think!
Oh yes!
In Camarvon The only thing is, see what I'm scared of now, you go and put the mower in there  and cart it out the back  and the  bits of moss dropping off the mower onto that patch!
Oh.
So you've spread it!
It'll be front and back!
Mm.
Those tiles   square.
Yeah.
Like the man next door.
But I think they're about three pounds each!
The last I heard of them.
I don't know what they are now.
Yeah, but in places you can have them a pound!
Yeah.
Well, when we had them  they were a pound each.
That's a very long time ago!
And I think David had some  er
He bought the coloured ones.
Yes.
They're dearer.
And they were three pounds each.
Yeah.
But on the way to Chearell arket  they're a pound each!
And would you want  about four or five dozen?
More than that perhaps?
I don't know, I might .
But the width of the thing.
About four foot wide isn't it?
Not a clue!
No, nor me.
I'd say about four by  six  eight, perhaps?
So that's, four eights are thirty two, to say the least.
Mm!
Ah, ha ha ha  ha ha ha!
Oh, I say!
Look at that sultry lot!
Up there.
What?
Him and her sat on the fence, the  they're slobbering away!
What's on up here then?
They're pulling the scaffolding down and Susan , it's bloody month too late!
Oh !
Mm mm mm mm, mm mm mm mm mm mm .
Mm mm mm mm .
Mm mm mm mm  mm mm mm mm mm  mm mm mm 
Oh, shall we go to the job centre?
I don't think it's worth it!
See what's going.
Mm mm mm mm mm  mm mm mm mm  mm mm mm mm mm mm  mm mm mm mm .
Oh, Woolworths.
What have they got there?
Glasses.
Oh look,.
Well   what's going on here?
Well what is that  going on up there?
At the roundabout.
It's a ruddy dustbin lorry!
Roundabout's there.
Yeah, I think I'll go this way too.
And now you'll find the same up this bloody way or something!
Stupid!
Ha ha ha ha!
Mm mm!
Mm mm mm mm
Posh shops up here!
Showing their corsets 
mm mm mm mm .
and their underwear!
Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm 
And the family butcher got not meat!
mm mm mm mm .
Oh, some lovely walking sticks!
Ooh!
Yum yum!
Shop full.
Yes.
Mm mm, mm mm  mm mm mm mm mm
Gees that bloody car frightened me then!
mm mm mm mm mm .
It's a wonder they don't make a car port here  you know?
This is bloody ridiculous!
What we've got here now?
Oh they're surveying.
Has that little house gotta come down?
No, they're doing it up.
Oh, they're gonna cut that corner off I think, by the look of it.
Lose part of the garden or something.
Yeah.
Look at those paving slabs, we'll have to take one of them away today.
one a night!
Have one a week!
Oh!
Ah ha ha ha .
God, the hospital's gone!
Yeah.
Flats.
All in here, see them?
Mm.
Gone.
Oh!
Pity!
These little towns
What a ruddy way to come and avoid that bloody street, isn't it?
are so old  and maybe,so many  and all  drains and this and that, and the next thing!!
Watch that bloody dustbin  lorry come in here now!
It's er  i , it's like a  jigsaw now isn't it?
Mm mm!
What are we going here for?
Vegetables.
Veg.
Well for a Thursday, look at the car park!
Mm?
Not many about is there?
There's a lot more in Quicksave!
Yeah?
I bet they have seen a change only he wouldn't admit it, if they did!
Mm.
Cos Leo's and all has come on.
Yeah.
That's down in the town, see.
Do your shopping, then go round the shops there!
But this is up out of the way!
I bet they have seen a change!
Yeah, they'll never admit to you!
No, well you see they'll it in their annual returns.
But er  it doesn't get put in the paper  you know  individually.
It's just, you know,s , so many million less this year, than last year!
That's all, you know.
Mm.
Mm mm mm mm .
Oh Christ!
This is getting closer!
That'll do!
Go on!
Oh, and I've gotta go to Weslicks after this!
Gotta go where?
Weslicks Mm mm mm mm .
Yes please.
Mhm.
Hark at that dog!
Just to knock your hand in.
the dole brings you to.
Does!
Oh?
No problem!
Well I can say it's Ally's car!
Does!
You've got to use whatever you put your hands on!
I mean it isn't  it isn't necessarily the goal!
I mean if you've got your house on a mortgage and you're on the dole, takes all your money too!
Everything!
There's, there's nothing left for anything other than to eat!
That, that you've earnt like!
That's right!
I noticed that there was only one man , that's all I heard of.
Er er  really attacking the, the  the poor people!
Not, attacking them, standing up for them!
Er  how did he expect the poor the people to live and  pay mortgage and  er, you know  all this and that on dole money!
Side, you can't choose anything!
You've 
No!
gotta have what you've got and that's it!
And everybody is at risk of employment!
Which is  either business  side of 
Yeah.
it  and, and there was one, like a  why all this er  er er oh, why are the schools so bad?
And why are the  hospitals so bad?
And, why is everything so bad?
But they're not!
They're not, he kept saying!
They're not!
We've just given them so much bloody  and if your houses are in bad condition  go to your council!
Ey if you've got a council house, it would be wouldn't it?
Ey go to your councils!
They have the money!
But they're not interested in the ones who've bought!
Yes, it was all nonsense he was talking about it!
He was covering up all the time!
Covering himself!
Just saying something to pass it over!
Yeah.
Cos it was only on the telephones, you couldn't see the !
Yeah.
But this one man did give him Rule Britannia, and got him  all taking the same time as him!
Didn't know what anybody was talking about!
Mm!
Be glad when it's all over!
Every time you hear the word election, you start to cringe!
And will do!
Ey That's a Jewson bus, look!
Is it?
No !
Looks as though he ought to be !
Ooh I say, got the caravan in front of the house there!
Living, living in that till the house gets built!
Oh!
When their house is finished, they'll sell that!
Oh!
To somebody else then who wants to live in it just till it's built!
They might keep it in the garden and have it as bed and breakfast!
It only needs that heater on  don't it?
It's warmed the car up.
Oh, I saw Mrs !
Did you?
Ey she looked   with the red scarf who's been having problems with it!
Yeah?
Well  she went  she'd left him  with their baggages on the seat  at the front of the shop
Yeah.
and she went across the road for something  and while she was across the road Mrs  came and was talking to that man.
Did she see you?
No.
She was er er   she was really Mrs   she was in a tearing hurry!
You know, never  
Well I'd have stopped her!
I'd have er
Oh, she didn't know!
to find out who's about 
But she was 
this!
talking oh  she was talking with him, so it's rude to interrupt like that!
And always, before she'd talked, finished talking to him she was off on down the road.
But it was her, and I was thinking after  she's sure to have retired now.
Oh I dunno!
She will be retired when she's forty, see!
Why?
There's six behind her  
She can go on till she's sixty five!
I don't think so!
But she's the breadwinner!
Well I think he's getting the, you know?
She can't leave him or something like that, maybe?
She told, she told dad she didn't want to give up work!
She should hate the day when  she  a , hadn't got a job to go to!
Yeah well, don't forget now she's on her way back to school, see!
Oh I dunno!
She might be but er  she'd got the same red skirt on as she had  she were wearing  when we were there!
Mm.
She didn't look quite as natty as she usually does!
But, of course, it might be an  off day on her!
With the wind, the wind blowing.
Ah!
But it was Mrs  alright!
The he was very good  you know, he was quiet and peaceful.
Didn't disturb anybody!
Not do anything, but still  you can't depend on that can you?
The daffs there!
Yeah.
They're beginning to fall all o ,now.
Mm.
But they haven't had much sunshine really!
No.
A ruddy mess outside your door innit?
Mm mm.
See this woman?
She walks up to the shop here!
She don't go to Busters I don't know why?
It's a Polish woman.
Oh!
Mm.
Well they're probably cheaper!
Oh I see.
Perhaps it is.
Well the milk is!
I don't know what the 
So probably she coming up 
I 
for her milk!
I don't know!
What about the groceries?
And it's exercise for the dog, see?
Yeah.
No, but her daily milk is a big difference!
Thirty three 
Oh yes.
to twenty six!
But I don't know!
What about her groceries being cheaper, and that is   in the long run!
But er
No, but if, if she had her milk there every day!
And her veg there!
Cos they grow a lot of veg in there!
It's exercising the dog!
And it's cheaper!
Oh, look at the greens!
Willows.
Pussy willows coming out!
No, I think it's all gone innit?
These are , yeah.
yeah.
It was pussy willows all back there.
Yeah.
Couple of .
It's gonna rain!
Oh if we're, we're coming.
Mm mm mm mm mm  mm mm mm mm  mm mm mm mm mm mm .
Well I wonder, did Mark enjoy his days work?
He said so.
Oh, what's he doing?
Yesterday!
He was working!
Oh!
Said he was enjoying his holidays!
Mark would there!
On his own, he'd love it!
He would like it better if Sally wasn't there!
Yeah.
But he said it's make it awkward!
Sally has holiday on her own but she can't  go about.
No.
As er, she can go if  they won't let Kirsty in, she can go one night, he can go another night.
Mm.
It's a change, but er  it's a change to have somebody to talk to as well!isn't it?
But will he ?
Even if it's 
Mm.
next door innit?
The way of life is different for a 
Mm.
week.
Oh well they'll be no cooking!
And she'll make him bloody wash up!
Will she?
Oh, he'll have to do his whack there!
Yeah !
Sally won't let him get away with it!
Oh, whatever's on the road!
Paper bag.
Yes, he'll have to make his beds and he does his share of the cooking and all!
Oh!
All the way.
Half and half.
But even, you know,e , even if they go for a walk into to Tenby, it's company!
Yeah.
But Mark  would like to do it without the company!
Mm.
Sally would like that bit of company.
Well she's on her own all the time, see!
Yes.
What the hell is  Oh tractor!
Ooh!
I don't know what's going on down there.
Oh, surveying.
They're starting the dig out.
It's coming up 
for Easter, see?
Oh yes.
They're all ready!
And where they're gonna go, and what part are they gonna do!
Is that the old erm  er   map there, sort of?
Yeah.
So they know where the buildings were.
Mm mm mm.
Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm  ah ha ha ha  ha ha ha ha .
Got that little  corner there.
Little greenery around that corner.
It's all dandelions!
Great long-uns 
Yeah but get that 
like this!
Let a tortoise loose in there for an hour or two.
Yeah.
Yeah, but they're so white aren't they?
Yeah.
Well, better than nothing at all!
Funny way they get them all the way out to the other side!
What?
The flowers all up on that side of the road.
There's some here look!
On the bank.
This is the new part, see?
That other part the bank is the old part!
Oh!
I expect there's  there's bushes all here, see?
They'll all fill in, just now.
Mm mm mm mm mm mm  mm mm mm mm  mm mm mm mm .
Look at him digging a bag of bones somewhere!
.
.
Oh God!
Ha ha!
Oh I say!
She don't know which end her coat is at  !
Well it's a tatty looking coat anyway!
Yeah.
Ah ha ha ha .
Have you got much shopping to do?
Not a lot.
Well I pay for the copper!
Where are the vegetable pies?
Vegetarian?
That's just pasties.
I'll have one of those then please?
You haven't got the corned beef?
You want corned beef?
Yes  at the top there.
These?
One  oh can I have lightly baked one?
Alright?
Good!
Okay?
Fine.
Ah, two well baked loaves please?
And  I think,.
Mm mm mm mm mm  mm  mm .
Three twenty.
Here you are.
Mm mm mm mm mm .
Hiya 
Hiya!
It's horrible, this job shopping innit!
Mm mm mm mm mm mm  mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm   Gonna switch this off.
Three pound and three please?
Three's five ten, and ten is twenty.
Thank you.
Thank you.
They know in their in their own fashion don't they?
They're up there!
They're up there love!
Do you want a cup of tea?
Here love, come   puff pastry.
Mm mm mm .
Give me that one.
Do you want them?!
.Gone away!
Mm mm mm .
Yes!
No!
I won't!
I won't forget!
Chocolate .
Do you want a cup of tea?
No I  No idea!
The other thing.
But I need them!
I'll get four chips with them.
Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm  Oh!.
Tins of baked beans love!
One.
Yeah.
Oh stop it!
Get off the ground!
Would you please stop !
!
You're not !
Big fat !
Yep!
Mm mm mm mm mm  mm mm mm  mm mm mm mm  mm mm mm .
Oh that bloke's a real !
Mm  mm mm mm  mm mm mm mm  mm mm mm mm
Don't no one look!
Oops!
Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm .
Excuse me!
Have you got the time on you please?
No.
Erm 
Cos I  I got a watch and it says  five past twelve, but it's more than that!
Yes 
Because we
I think it's more than that!
Yeah, I put wrong 
I think, yeah.
No, sorry!
And she was born into it.
Her father, you know?
Into high society in then.
Oh well!
The thing is  what's she doing with all these bloody skiing holidays for?
Then she's not  learn what she's gotta do!
Oh God I just about it!
The pressure  of the work .
The Queen in other words  expects too much  of them!
And she might come at you very  very     but .
She's taking too much out of them!
.This is what the people are saying.
It isn't too much Danny!
She isn't doing  enough!
You know, she's living too wild a life!
Too wild a life!
They're not knuckling her down to concentrate!
You know, they have to go and  speak at meetings, and shake hands with everybody 
I know!
and all that,!
And she'd rather jump on a pony and go!
Because the Queen Mother  isn't .
Well I saw .
.Yeah.
What's his name?
Wesley?
No.
I'll come to it .
Mm?
He's, fooled her twice today.
I had to, the second the time  only after  the bloody !
I thought I recognised the voice  I says, you got the wrong number pal!
I'm sorry sir, he said!
He said I didn't want to bother you.
.Well!
And he would ring off.
And I put the phone down as well.
Well, did you ask to go to the ?
He said hello Mr .
Well, he had the right number then didn't he?
I didn't say it!
I asked him if he had the right  number?
I didn't know who he was!
Then he said the same.
Oh!
I suppose he thought he was talking to Sally.
Oh!
.I didn't.
Mm mm!
He didn't say what he wanted?
No!
I didn't ask him!
Cos I thought  that he had the wrong number!
I didn't know who bloody Wesley was!
I didn't know his name!
Could of asked him!
Well he bloody said  but  but I didn't know him!
Never mind!
All I've been introduced to that bloke as  Sally's  friend!
I've never been !
So how was I to know?
Oh !
Mm?
There wasn't much in that magazine.
Got your car though.
It's cold isn't it?
Soon know.
The Queen  the Royal Family get paid in this .
Well the solicitors  do.
Mm.
The Queen's supposed to know.
It's where I get 
though.
But Andrew will have to keep the children.
Well they want, they want divorce and they'd rather custody of the children  and if they'll some  but she can allow them to take the children away cos the  well the media coverage, they've obviously got  they have a law.
Cos they don't know whether she's going to America  or Australia.
The  to her.
Her mother's in America  and her sister's in Australia.
Her sister is  parted from her husband  went through a divorce so,
Mm.
Catherine.
But two cars took her out against    and they believe that  she's gone to the airport and  they didn't know where  where she was excised.
Ah?
They wanted Texas where her father  her mother lives.
Yeah, her father's dead,two years ago.
Where it says step-father.
You wouldn't recognise him!
Oh yeah.
.This reporter's saying that  it's her mother's,yo , you'll see!she married.
And they said that the one in Australia, her sister in Australia wouldn't tolerate it!
No, but it's  what they're saying to Fergie, is just go!
Get away from it all.
Mm.
Because the media  they will not give her peace!
The   and all the crowds.
There's hundred weren't there!
All the time!
Even the  police cars are there!
The police can't bloody move unless  to her!
There's something 
there!
They, they can't er  restore it up  where there isn't any!
I know.
And they're looking for the first little thing!
Oh!
I mean, now  you get  big money for the first story!
Ey it's like that one from America
Yeah.
offered her work.
Two million!
Two million dollars, for her!
Get out of my bloody shoes, Mick!
I'll, I'll laugh  laugh if you  like that magazines or something.
Tough luck!
Ey 
They ain't 
going for them!
Tough luck!
Probably end up getting .
Mm mm mm   Now we've started.
No , well  it's their problem!
It's the husband, it's the kids that suffer anyway!
That's right.
Well they won't!
Oh they will, mind, they'll want to know where their daddy is, and why he doesn't come!
Yes  but I suppose if you get custody  holidays  they can afford the best of everything!
Mm!
Tap dripping.
.
Time for a dog's bowl!
Can you put some of them scraps in it?
Mm?
It's four o'clock!
You'll have it  on, on her.
Yeah.
Told you he wouldn't, didn't come.
He didn't come!
Nope 
Ah, well that's you then cut out mum!
Ey !
You won't keep , you'll get whole book!
Mm mm mm mm mm mm  mm mm mm mm mm .
rung.
bloke ..
Bet she was really .
Ah,.
I didn't know  the bloody blokes name!
I happened to have it, the phone  use his hands.
It could of been Sally's friend.
But you could ask, who are you  who are you looking for?
Yes.
I know what's really cutting her up about too   is very near  I didn't know what to  what to do.
Get that the paper out today?
Yeah.
Where is it?
Well I don't, there's been her and Lisa!
I thought we should of  nicked that lot!
That's about quarter of an hour isn't it?
That was the last one.
Mm?
Well that one looks twenty er  the wash basin in it.
That's too much  going on too long!
It's either the shower or
Now it's your wash basin!
I heard him shouting at it.
I was there last night.
Before she ran into the  wash basin.
Come on, where do you leave the paper ?
What?
Read the paper .
Have a look at all the pages.
What erm  what time did he ring?
About one, two o'clock.
And why does he sit in her house waiting for her?
Well it's on his way home.
Private home.
It is a private number  it wasn't a phone box.
I didn't know the bloke by his name!
I didn't know who I was talking to!
You should of asked!
I did!
He said ra Jesus Christ!
I'm talking to a wall!
And, what's her number?
.
Doing a fine job!
Are you?
What in?
Polish!
Polish!
Polish!
Oh!
Must make a Friday, a Polish day.
A what?
A polish day.
Right.
Even just to  wipe the polish round 
No, it's , yes.
And then you, you 
You polish them.
Well you're supposed 
You went on Monday  
you're supposed to give it a good bees waxing once a year!
The rest of the time you, you  you warm the polish rag and rub that over.
And then I, I,
Have you done the radiator?
hard rubbing  is the  secret of it all.
And we've done the window sills all upstairs.
And it absorbs it don't it?
I put a good bit on there and soaked it  let it soak in.
as if you would  have a polish day every Friday  you could put it on  Thursday night.
You don't want to put it on early but
And polish it off 
If you 
Friday.
Yes  but you see  if you put a lot on it's sticky!
Oh yeah.
You gotta keep them, you know?
Mm.
Rubbing it ahead with a duster will do for  weeks!
Mm.
Oh  are going through the hoop!
It is erm  a fact  boys pour your money into BUPA bank robbed.
And they 
put it in, if he's 
Mm.
going.
Yeah.
And it says a ,i ,i it's stating things here  er  if you've been wanted operation a long time  the N S H  er  N S H  that is it, yes.
N H S.
N H S  they will re transfer your name to Bupa  and Bupa will write to you  and say they've got a bed if you'd like to have it.
Because you've gotta pay for that.
Danny could have had his operation three years ago!
If you'd been on Bupa.
The first thing they asked him was how much money he'd got!
Yes.
And, do you belong to Bupa?
Mm.
And he said, how the hell can I pay that!
Mm.
And they said well it's .
Well  in  in nineteen seventy nine  before the Tories, there was only one Bupa hospital.
Mm.
Now there are thirty!
Mm.
And another fact is, last year  Bupa announced record losses  of sixty three point three million!
Fact  the Department of Social Security  is splashing five million for health cheques  for it's staff  all on Bupa!
Mm.
To keep the private one going!
Prime Mist Prime Minister Major spoke last year  at a nurses awards dinner organised by Bupa  he said there was now much more scope  for private health firms.
A , Health Secretary William Waldegrave is a member of BUPA.
That's the Health Secretary!
Mm!
But if you listen to him on telly, he isn't!
Oh well .
No.
Course I er  the main subject today is the pot calling the kettle black!
Mm.
M F I, sixty five percent off look!
Mm.
Elderly patients cower in terror as two nurses battle it out on a ward!
A tribunal heard yesterday.
Tempers exploded at breakfast time after Rosemary   and Carssier who had feuded for a month accidentally bumped into each other between two beds  and their slanging match  to violence  when Rosemary shouted   what you need is a man!
Bed ridden patients at St Mary's A St Mary Abbots Hospital  are geriatric and   and psychiatric unit in London's Kensington  narrowly escaped injured  injury as five foot two  Carssier grappled with Rosemary  six foot and well stoned!
And it was Rosemary who finished  up in casualty after Carssier kicked her three times in the stomach!
The ides industrial tribunal in Chelsea was   the fight ended only when they were pulled apart  by the angry matron!
Rosemary, twenty eight, claimed  that Carssier grabbed a patient's  organ  no  angry Rosemary, twenty eight, claimed that Carssier grabbed a patient's orange juice  threw it over her and kicked her!
But Carssier thirty two  insisted she only tried to defend herself after Rosemary repeatedly punched her!
Rosemary who had a caesarian operation just four months earlier, said  she did not touch Carssier She told the tribunal, just look at me!
If I had touched her it might have been a very different thing!
Simon , ex-manager of St Mary's  Mary Abbots, said  the safety of patients was put at risk!
Cassier of Notting Hill  so she's a black-un!
Was sacked by Riverside Health Authorities  after disciplinary hearing.
She claims unfair dismissal .
Cassier's the white one!
Oh yeah.
From Notting Hill.
She claims unfair dismissal  and the case continues .
So  Mm!
Oh,Cilla Black  met Mickey Mouse yesterday  and the excited scouse laughed!
Put on a pair of Mickey Mouse ears for the occasion.
But it was easy to tell the stars apart  Mickey was the one who could open his mouth and smile without looking like Goofy !
He got together with the T V presenter  when she opened a half size replica  of Sleeping Beauty's castle at Battersea Park, in London  the castle, giving visitors  a preview of the Euro-Disney Centre  which opens near Paris  on April the twelfth.
See they're still saying April the twelfth.
Will stay at the park until Sunday  before moving on to Birmingham and Manchester .
Oh yes, well I dare say  isn't finished!
It might be finished all but from painting and  you know?
Extra trimmings.
I mean, they're working there forever and a day!
Fergies twenty million kiss-off.
The Duchess of York  will be ordered to  .
It was I, it was in the book, Fergie and .
She can't do it!
She can't do it!
But if she opens it  gonna take her to the cleaners!
She'll get the house if   The Sunnin Sunninghill  the five million house, built  for the couple  at the Queen's expense  will remain Fergie's home for the  foreseeable future.
The Queen who gave it to Andy and Fergie as a wedding present  has made it clear to her advisors  that the Duchess should not be forced to leave, as long as the she adheres to her agreement  not to talk about the marriage break up .
But, a broke up's a broke up, innit?
Well she's been talking hasn't she?
The decision means the children will remain physically close to the queen  and Princess Beatrice will be able to remain at the same school.
The house is not regarded as a ac architectural masterpiece!
It is nicknamed Southyork  because of it's resemblance to R J Ewing's ranch, Southfork  from the soap opera, Dallas!
The house is like a fortress behind eight  foot walls  and set in four acre grounds.
Various critics  have likened it to a Tesco's superstores!
The little chef  and a glorified council house!
It has  pseudo-Tudor beams  no expense spared furnishings, including a dome glass roof  in the entrance hall  and vast main function room with a marble fireplace  and a galleried landing .
Musicians gallery, innit?
The house has twenty five rooms including  special quarters for the Queen  and the Duke of Edinburgh  and Charles and Diana.
It is multa and  it is mortar and bullet proof.
Outside is a twenty five foot  swimming pool and landscaped gardens .
I don't think Fergie would want to stay there.
It is like er  it is like 
She'll leave the country I think.
It is like Tesco's isn't it?
Mm.
Oh yes, she'll go probably, I should imagine.
The mul , and the Duchess of York will become a multi-millionairess, in her own right, as a result of the break up of the marriage to Andrew  we can reveal today .
Possible job, they can reveal it because it said in the  on the front page that  there's nothing been decided!
Mm.
Fergie will receive a mammoth payment of twenty millions pounds,!
Which will come out of the Duke's personal trust fund.
And another five  hundred thousand every year  paid for by the Queen!
This will more than insure that she can continue to live  in the style she's enjoyed since her marriage.
Quite separately, the two children, Princess Beatrice, three, and Princess Eugenie, two, have been independently looked after again by the Queen!
On their births a trust a fund  of tens of thousands of pound  was started for them in their names by their grandmother  .
This will guarantee all their school fees  and the basis of their future .
The huge down payment will come from a trust fund  of one million, set up by the Queen for Prince Andrew, the day he was born .
See, they've put that million pound into  into a fund for him and that's been getting  erm
Interest and interest on it.
twelve, twelve, thirteen, fourteen percent interest  a year!
And, you know  compound interest.
His sister and both brothers have identical trust funds  this million pound figure  has grown to the size, just today  around forty million  because Prince  because the Prince has not touched it  in all these years.
As Andrew's wife, Fergie can claim  half of everything he owns !
And they've given her half of it aren't they?
Mm.
Well everybody can do that.
Mhm.
Only it's just lucky that he's got a lot!
.Senior Buckingham Palace aid confirmed last night  the Duchess is entitled  to claim half the sum now  contained in that fund.
City experts had  calculated last night that the original million pound will be grown  with wise investment  to thirty eight and forty million.
In addition to this lump sum the annual   Of course, they don't pay tax!
In addition to this lump sum the annual half a million pound  allowance will be paid to the Duchess by the Queen  partly to ensure that she is never tempted  to publish memoirs  or talk about her failed marriage.
Such,shu shut up money  arrangements are never openly discussed, but the financial arrangements within the Duke and Duchess will include a contract  with a silent clause.
The senior aide said last night there will be carrot and stick clauses.
The Duchess will be told quite clearly  that if news or information gets out publicly  in any way  she could be fined, for example will be warned  that  time spent with her children will possibly be curtailed  if she doesn't tow the line .
And it goes on and all.
Well if she does  she can have the children taken off her!
Yeah.
Her time spent with the children.
So the Queen would hire a nanny to look after them 
Mm.
at Buckingham Palace, and she'd visit  occasionally.
Well they'd give them to her too.
Regular bills  include a household expenses  food, eating, a dress allowance  and the retention of two nannies  they've
Here is er, Fiona Armstrong presents a special item in the national.
In the na , to the nation, her baby daughter..
Oh.
Nobody else ever had one.
She's on the telly every day!
She's part of your household isn't she?
Well not mine!
I don't even know who she is!
Well she, she reads to you often enough!
Oh!
Oh, but  I don't know her name.
Oh watch the news .
No, I'm just going to sleep at ten o'clock!.
Got her .
No, she'll never .
She is as common as what .
He must have been a fool for her  er, you know?
Well she was getting at Koo Stark!
Well I don't know!
When you come to  check up on it  Koo Stark  is so ,so ,society!
Yeah?
But that was nothing!
Oh.
Oh  Well I wonder will Robert and Diane stay tomorrow?
Dunno.
They usually, you know, say on the telly what they intend doing!
I can't understand why they left it till the last moment?
You know, before running up the door!
Cos there'd usually be a  how are you?
Or  talk to you!
Nothing!
You don't know what has go amongst them.
But, but he'd of said wouldn't he?
But erm 
We can only stay  you know, we'll be coming on that night.
He always does!
We'll be coming over because of so and so, so and so, so and so!
We won't be staying he'll say.
They might of been out you see!
And Robert's in bed and overslept maybe?
And when he gets up and he's got to do this and he's got to do that,!
No.
Andy?
An Angie.
Oh Angie.
Yes.
Oh I see I thought you said Andy there.
Anyway bye Lesley it's nice to speak 
I'm a Radio Virgin by the way.
Oh are you well I'll give you a a, I lost it at lunchtime ex-Radio Virgin certificate for being a first time on and er I'd like to say it's been a pleasure.
All right thanks.
Bye bye.
Er Sue from Bulwell hello Sue.
Hello Geoff.
How are you?
Fine thanks.
You've not been on for a while have you?
Where have you been?
Well been here  there and everywhere .
Ha have you?
I came in to see you but you weren't in so.
When was that when did you come in?
Er about a fortnight ago.
Was it?
I'll be here I'm always here.
Well you wasn't.
I would have been somewhere.
You're skiving like the teachers.
No no one could skive like they do.
I mean what a good idea you have a week off away from all the kids and then you have another couple days and call them training days.
yeah my two have them at school as well.
Have they?
Isn't it a good idea though?
And then they have all those big long summer holidays and then they moan about the marking.
Oh I know but saying that I think my kiddies' school's all right so I've got 
Is it?
so I've got no grievances about it.
I'm only doing it to wind him up.
I know 
That's all I'm only doing it to wind them up you see there.
I wonder if they get an extra allowance for red pens?
Although they're not meant to do it in red any more are they?
No it's black and blu black and blue.
Black and blue I see and and anything exciting going off Sue to report?
Ooh I got sloshed on Friday.
Did you?
Hey do you care about you know the other day we were talking about the erm I wanted to get one of the councillors on to talk about this but I I can't find the right one.
But you know the other day we were talking about that tulip thing that's down by erm Marks and Sparks?
Yes.
In t you know that statue thing?
Yes that thing that trickles out a bit of water.
That's there yeah the dribbly You know  upturned dribbly nose that one.
Yes.
Erm  they were talking about moving it and everything there was a big fuss about it last week well now there's a fuss about they want to pull all the trees down around it as well.
No I think if I had the choice I'd move the tulip and leave the trees.
Well I would you know.
They want to rip all the trees down as well they want to make it a little piazza thing don't they?
Oh well why don't they just bring  down as well you know might as well.
If they're going to do it proper do it all.
With a bit of extra mozzarella on the top love.
Yes.
Erm Kids' County anyway who are we talking about Sue?
Totally wrong I said  D H Lawrence .
No you nana No it's it's not Sue but it was a lovely thought wasn't it?
Totally wrong I knew it was afterwards I'd said oh well.
Never mind though good bye.
See you bye.
Give us a ring Sue.
Er it's not Kenneth Clarke and it's not Brian Clough and it's not Dennis McCarthy and it's not D H Lawrence.
Here's the clues who were they talking about?
He's famous he's got a wife he's normally on the news he's posh and he dresses up smart he writes he writes papers out.
There who are they on about three four three four three four to call it's er a very public figure very public you're bound to have heard of him you've probably seen him as well I would have thought I would have thought so as some stage picture always in the paper there as well you know nice big swanky car too.
Three four three four three four to call for a bash at Kids' County.
It's not Kenneth Clarke Brian Clough it's not Dennis McCarthy and it's not D H Lawrence either.
There Mister Mister and er Broken Wings June from Mansfield is our Loot at Lunchtime champ hello June.
Hello.
Are you all right?
Yes thank you are you ?
Has it changed your life being a champ?
Oh yes.
Has it well what what's happened then?
Ooh erm I I'm cooking dinner today.
Are you?
Yes.
Who who's heckling there who's chiming up?
That's Rob.
Is it?
Yes.
Rob the gob.
I don't think so no.
Look Sharon from Grantham is taking you on today.
Mhm.
Now be kind to her because it must be awful living in Grantham hello Sharon.
Hello.
You all right?
Yes thank you.
Erm what was erm Scoobie Doo's pal called?
Shaggy.
Shaggy thank you.
Do you remember that then?
Yes.
Off the telly and everything.
What do you do with yourself Sharon?
Oh knitting  sewing.
Are you?
It sounds like there's a lot going on where you are.
Oh yes.
What is it?
Oh there's it's er my daughter she's got the television on.
Oh is it?
Yes.
I thought you'd got a raging battle going on in your front room.
Oh yes.
Erm give me thirty seconds worth of famous dogs they can be in cartoons, they can be in history, they can be in films, they can be anywhere and we'll do it in half an hours time.
Same for you June.
Yes.
All right so we'll have thirty seconds worth of famous dogs and pooches.
Right.
Later on you can go and control Rob there.
What was he saying then when he was shouting up there?
Erm what were you saying Rob?
He's taken things off the floor and now he's taken the floor up.
Oh has he?
Yes.
Well so long as he's happy June that's the main thing isn't it?
I'll talk to you in half an hours time.
Right-oh.
All right then and I hope it's all calmed down by then as well.
So it's June from Mansfield who's our reigning champ and Sharon from Grantham on Loot at Lunchtime we'll do it at around half one.
Now these are The Who and A Pin Ball Wizard.
They're The Who and er A Pin Ball Wizard a car park queue wizard is er Annie Smith what's happening?
The Walkden Street car park in Mansfield that's got plenty of space.
In the centre of Nottingham Trinity Square  busy but you won't have to queue for the Victoria Centre or the Broadmoor  next update in ten minutes time.
Almost called you a witch there but I stopped just in time because it's not 
Thank you.
quite what I meant.
We'll do er we'll do the traffic and trains and planes in full after the er main news in ten minutes time we'll check the whole lot then.
We love her really.
Good afternoon from the county's favourite station now it's one o'clock.
And the headlines this lunchtime it's confirmed that Calverton Colliery in Nottinghamshire is to go into the review procedure putting another six hundred miners' jobs at risk.
Preston Crown Court is told that the two boys accused of murdering the Merseyside toddler James Bulger each blamed the other for attacking the child.
And a court in Nottingham hears how a taxi driver sexually assaulted a female passenger after driving her to a secluded spot in  Park.
They're the headlines today the news in detail from Alison Ford.
Calverton Colliery's been put into the review procedure by British Coal.
They say the pit's lost more than six million pounds this year and it's prospects aren't good because of a lack of markets.
But Calverton's six hundred and forty miners must wait another twenty four hours before hearing their fate because the Coal Board have refused to say whether they want to close the pit or reduce its workforce.
Nigel Bell reports.
The Midlands leader of the pit deputies union NACODS was first to emerge from the review meeting at Edwinstowe Ray Hilton summed up the mood of the mining unions.
The reaction in there has been a bit bitter really because one feels that British Coal aren't telling everything that that's happening.
Obviously they're starting now to pick the bits off one by one.
Equally critical was the U D M President Neil Greatorex.
We're sat in there like lemons waiting for an announcement that allayed the fears for the future of the industry and we've got absolutely nothing.
Bilsthorpe at least lives to fight another day.
The men at Calverton will find out their fate tomorrow when a reconvened review meeting's held.
Ian Slater Calverton's U D M branch delegate says the speed at which the meeting has been arranged is another attempt by British Coal to reduce the review period which could give the mine a nine month life line.
They would have had to have done it within three weeks anyway and I think the way they are looking at it if they do that tomorrow then they're counting from then till the next stage.
Miners will have up to two weeks before they need to say whether they want to challenge British Coal's intentions.
The funerals are taking place of five people killed when gunmen opened fire in a bar at Greysteel in County Londonderry on Saturday night.
Two more victims will be buried elsewhere.
Speaking of the funerals the former Bishop of Derry, Edward Daley appealed to politicians to treat what he described as this intolerable situation with the utmost urgency.
Lucy Atherton reports.
Bishop Daley said we must appeal repeatedly to those faceless heartless murderers of all organizations and to all those who identify with them to stop their diabolical activities.
We must appeal to Government and those charged with political responsibility to treat this intolerable situation with the urgency and priority it deserves.
The local priest Father John Gallagher said Saturday's slaughter had united rather than divided the community as the killers had intended.
He believed on this sad day that feeling of reconciliation was a reason for hope.
Two more men have been arrested by police investigating the shootings.
Eleven people are now being questioned.
The jury in the James Bulger murder trial at Preston have been hearing how the two eleven year old boys accused of murder blamed each other for most of the violence.
The prosecution said that in interviews with the police both children had demonstrated a fluent capacity to tell lies.
From Preston Crown Court Kevin Bucket reports.
The prosecuting barrister Richard  Q C described how the two boys were interviewed separately by police.
At first both denied having anything to do with the abduction and murder but later changed their stories when presented with police evidence.
One child referred to in court as child A, finally admitted taking James Bulger to a railway embankment near Walton but he said it was the other boy child B who threw bricks at him and hit him with a stick and a metal bar.
Mr  said that when child B eventually gave his account of what had happened he claimed that he had only thrown small stones at James and had deliberately tried to miss.
He blamed the other boy, child A for most of the violence.
Mr  said it was clear both defendants had played a part in causing James Bulger's death.
The trial will continue this afternoon.
Nottingham Crown Court's been told that a taxi driver sexually assaulted a woman passenger after ignoring her instructions and driving her to a secluded area in Clumber Park.
This report from Chris Throup.
Forty one year old  of King Street in Worksop denies indecently assaulting the twenty seven year old woman in October last year.
The court heard she went to a taxi rank in Worksop and asked to be taken to an address where her mother lived.
The woman told the court  drove her instead to Clumber Park where he unclipped the sign on his taxi then assaulted her in the vehicle before driving her back to Worksop.
The whole episode allegedly lasted about an hour and a half.
told the police it never took place.
The trial continues.
You're listening to B B C Radio Nottingham news the time is five past one.
Police say organized groups of children are behind a spate of thefts from elderly shoppers at Long Eaton.
Gangs of children some as young as eight have been targeting pensioners in the town centre and have stolen money and property worth hundreds of pounds.
Rob Sissons reports.
Police have described the crimes as despicable.
On Friday and yesterday police received eight reports of youngsters stealing property from pensioners.
The thefts all took place at lunch time many on the town's High Street and some inside shops.
Sergeant Martin Cooper believes about twenty youngsters are involved.
He says they're highly organized and work in small groups.
He says all the thefts followed a similar pattern.
Three or four of these youngsters will approach the elderly person, try and confuse them by speaking to them about something completely irrelevant, and just er disappear during which time of course er valuables have been taken from these people.
Police suspect the thieves come from outside the Long Eaton area and it's thought the youngsters who are aged from eight into their early teens may be organized by adults.
Seven law lords acting as the highest court in the Commonwealth have ruled that two men on death row in Jamaica for fourteen years should have their sentence commuted to life imprisonment.
Their death sentence for murder has nearly been carried out three times.
The ruling by a British court could decide the fate of more than a hundred other men across the Commonwealth also under sentence of death.
John Silverman reports.
On three occasions since nineteen seventy nine execution warrants have been served against Earl Pratt and Ivan Morgan.
Each time they've been reprieved at the last moment.
The law lords in their ruling talk of the agony of mind the men must have suffered as they alternated between hope and despair.
We regard it as an inhuman act, they say, to keep a man facing the agony of execution over a long extended period.
Jamaica alone has a hundred and five prisoners who've been on death row for more than five years.
In Trinidad some condemned men have awaited execution even longer.
Like Earl Pratt and Ivan Morgan they're all now expected to have their sentences commuted to life imprisonment.
Sixteen labour MPs are calling on the North Nottinghamshire Health Authority to relocate all the staff from the Harlow Wood Orthopaedic Hospital when it closes.
In a Commons motion they say they deeply regret the decision to shut the hospital which they argue is a direct result of Government reforms in the National Health Service.
Jeremy Ball reports.
The sixteen include the Sherwood MP Paddy Tipping Ashfield's Geoff Houn and Alan Neal who represents Mansfield.
They say that when the decision was made to transfer the spinal unit at Harlow Wood to Nottingham's Queens Medical Centre about a third of the hospital's work was removed and no new contracts were negotiated to fill the gap.
Health union officials say as many as a hundred and fifty jobs could be lost with the closure of the hospital which was confirmed last week after months of speculation.
The year long campaign to save it included a petition to Downing Street with twenty four thousand signatures.
Nottinghamshire police are appealing for witnesses to a road accident on the A six three one Beckingham bypass in which a young boy was seriously injured.
Four year old Jessie Smith from  Lane in Gainsborough is in intensive care at the Queens Medical Centre.
He was travelling in a Lancia Prisma saloon which lost control and overturned just before midnight on Sunday.
Now the look at the lunch time sports news here's John Shaw.
Notts County manager Mick Walker has named the same fourteen that were on duty at the City ground on Saturday for tonight's journey to Wolves.
So Andy Legg is still out the question remains as to whether Gary  will be in the starting lineup after Tony  impressive performance against Forrest.
Mansfield Town travel to fourth placed without fane Wayne Fairclough who's still injured and Ian Stringfellow who's recovering from flu.
Paul Holland is available again though after suspension.
Rugby Union officials have decided to take no further action against the All Blacks over the controversial Phil  affair.
The England player was left needing fifteen stitches in an eye wound after a rucking incident during the All Blacks match against the South West on Saturday.
The R F U condemned the incident in unusually strong terms but now seem ready to let the matter rest.
And ice hockey, there'll be an extra game at the Ice Stadium on Saturday before the Pampas meet Cardiff Devils because Peterborough Pirates no longer have use of their rink.
They'll be playing their match against Sheffield Steelers at the Ice Stadium at half past one.
And the main points of the news again this lunch time.
A court in London has heard how a taxi driver sexually assaulted a female passenger after driving her to a secluded spot in Clumber Park.
Preston Cro Crown Court has been told that the two boys accused of murdering the Merseyside toddler James Bulger each blamed the other for attacking the child.
And Calverton Colliery has been put into the review procedure by British Coal.
They say the pit's lost more than six million pounds this year and its prospects aren't good because of a lack of markets.
Ten past one traffic and trains and planes in full.
On the trains British Rail say it's all fine no problems East Midlands Airport it's all fine there no delays to the services at the moment.
Let's listen for a space with Annie Smith.
In Nottingham city centre you'll find space to park at the Broadmarsh Centre and Fletchergate you won't have to queue for the Victoria Centre car park but Trinity Square that's proving to be fairly busy so expect a short wait to park there.
No problems if you want to make use of the park and ride service.
The Forest  Race Course and Queens  they've all got plenty of space while in the centre of Mansfield you've got room to pork park even at the Walkden Street car park.
Finally taking a look at the traffic on Nottingham's roads as far as I can tell it's all moving fairly steadily.
Annie Smith radio Nottingham travel.
I suppose you could pork if you wanted to couldn't you ?
you could if you wanted to.
Nobody would know.
Well thank you have a lovely afternoon.
And you.
Tarrah.
Bye.
Erm other places to watch out for in Baysford the work is continuing on David Lane and Southwick Street the crossing there is closed diversions are in place and there have been long delays in the area there so unless you have to I wouldn't.
In the centre of Newark there's works on Beesmarket Hill part of Bargate and Castlegate have been closed and diversions are in place there.
And on the A one there are lane closures at Claypole just south of Newark and South Crescent is closed in Clipstone between First Avenue and North Crescent.
That'll do us for now we'll update the traffic again for you in half an hour's time radio Nottingham F M one O three point eight and ninety five point five Nottinghamshire's favourite station with the weather forecast for the rest of the afternoon.
It's going to remain dry but dull the temperature only rising to seven Celsius forty five Fahrenheit so it will feel chilly in the easterly breeze.
Mainly light rain expected this evening the outbreaks should die out around midnight the rest of the night then being cloudy and misty with a little drizzle in places.
The overnight low six Celsius forty three Fahrenheit.
And Wednesday another cloudy day with the risk of an odd shower it will be warmer than today though Wednesday's high twelve Celsius fifty four Fahrenheit.
The Strawbs and er and Part of the Union and I'm reliably informed by John Shaw that the Strawbs are supporting Lindisfarne at the Concert Hall in er December so there you are one to one.
This is Radio Nottingham it's a quarter past one  at these are the clues for Kids' County what are they on about here?
Who are they on about here?
He's famous he's got a wife he's normally on the news he's posh and he dresses up smart he writes he writes papers out.
Those last clues, He's posh and he dresses up smart somebody rang and is it Dennis, no.
It's er it's not Brian Clough and it's not Kenneth Clarke and it's not D H Lawrence either.
Erm Terry from Top Valley is on.
Hello.
Hello mate.
Are you all right?
Yes not bad are you?
Well I'm fine coping with it all.
Oh jolly good.
Are you going to bonfire at the weekend?
Er might do yes.
Do you know where you're going?
Might go to Lolworth Corporation on the Forest.
Er oh right I see.
pretty safe isn't it?
Yeah there's our Action Line are doing a a bit list of bonfires and you can ring them up and they'll tell you where to go.
Oh I didn't know that.
In er in the nicest possible way.
Oh super.
So er if you're stuck for one to go to give them a call four double one two double two
and er they'll tell you where to go.
Similarly if people are organizing bonfires and they want their bonfire to go on Action Line's list then they can give them a ring as well you see?
Mm it's 
What's 
a good idea.
What's the number Terry.
Er four double one two double one.
Four double one two double two.
Four double one two double two that's it.
That's it now don't forget will you?
Sorry yes.
Just checking.
Yes.
Have it written out five hundred times by the morning.
Else there'll be trouble.
Now and and are you doing any exciting today that you can tell us about and share with us?
No not a lot really no.
Nothing.
No just listening to the show.
Oh yeah listen to the rattling on and everything.
Yes  it's good.
What what do you think about these erm the this tulip thing and these trees down by erm the church?
Well myself personally
Mm.
You mean the er stone the
Yeah the one that's by Marks and Sparks.
I think it's superb.
Do you love it?
I do.
So you don't you don't want them to move it at all?
Not at all.
Any what about the trees that are around it as well?
I think well I mean the bit of green's good isn't it?
Well I you know.
I don't think people appreciate art a lot do they?
There are some people who think that you shouldn't be allowed to cut trees down.
No I do I I believe in that as well think you should keep a lot of er green about, looks good.
But I think that I think the plan is to move them and to put some other ones down as well.
Oh yeah yeah.
I'm going to try and get them to come on and talk about this tomorrow.
Yeah that's right.
These er these these council people cos it's
Yeah.
People ringing up about it and talking about it all the time aren't they?
Well that's right yeah.
I think the plan is to to shift the tulip somewhere else.
Somebody said the only suitable place for that daft leaf is in the middle of the arboretum lake.
Not at all.
.
I'll take it put in my back garden.
Well you know you have it then if they're sh 
I would.
If they're short of somewhere to put it we'll send it up Top Valley Terry.
It would take a lot of doing.
Well then I would get up there although no.
Er look erm Kids' County anyway who are they talking about?
I think its John Major.
John Major no.
No.
No it needs to be somebody who's connected with Nottinghamshire.
Ah does it?
You see.
Ah.
Yeah un unless er he might have moved into Top Valley.
You know he might  might have a little weekend house there.
You never know.
Just opposite Tesco.
Yeah.
Might be but I doubt it so no it's not John Major but it was a good thought Terry.
Okay.
Tarrah.
Have a nice day now.
Oh well I'll do my best and if er if they're stuck for somewhere with a leaf then er we'll send them round.
Jean from Clifton hello Jean.
Hello.
How are you?
All right thank you.
And what's happening up your end then?
Erm well ironing washing  baby sitting .
Bory snory chory things isn't it then eh?
Yes.
Bory snory chory things going on .
Yes.
Dear.
What do you think about this tulip thing?
Erm I'm not all that impressed.
Aren't you?
What about the trees around it do you think they should stay ?
Yes I think I like the trees yeah I think they look all right but I I just don't like that  that ornament thing or whatever it is.
That big big doo da thing you know big thing.
Oh Norah from Compton Acres  has rung up and says why spoil the arboretum lake ?
Cos you know one of the people says that the best place for it  is to lob it in the arboretum lake.
Yes 
You know it's a shame isn't it?
Yeah but I ju just think it's waste of money.
So you think save the trees but ditch the tulip.
Yes definite.
All right so cos this is vital isn't it.
Cos we all walk past it don't we every week?
Yep.
When you go shopping.
Yep.
Mind you it's whe it's when that waters trickling down.
It sounds horrible 
Well it's not trickled for a while has it?
No not not down the street like it used to do.
No cos it it gives no and then it used to freeze over and you got a beautiful skating rink there 
Yes.
didn't you?
When it freezed over.
Erm I'll try and get the the erm the council people on to talk about it to us 
Yes.
I think and just tell us what they're doing what's going on with it.
Anyway Kids' County who are they talking about Jean?
Er Brandon Bravo.
Erm no it's not.
Oh right.
It's not Martin Brandon Bravo it isn't no.
Right.
No it could have been but it isn't.
Could have been.
Anyway never mind .
Yep bye.
Tarrah bye bye.
Erm Joyce is on from Sandiacre hello Joyce.
Hello.
How are you?
All right thank you.
Good you've not been on for a while either have you?
No.
Why?
come on.
Aye?
I've been on once  once or twice but no
But but no.
No.
I see cos you like to keep yourself to yourself don't you Joyce?
True true.
My daughter phoned up actually but she's just had a phone call to go out so she's left me  t' answer .
Oh she gone out ladding has she again?
Er not ladding no.
On the razz is she on the pull?
She's just gone to see  somebody .
Oh has she?
Cos I always like to know Joyce  you see .
I always like to find out you know never leave any  unturned.
That's it.
That's what I say so nothing much happening today with you?
No I'm doing a crossword, listening to the wireless .
Are you are you stuck on any of them cos I like to help.
No I've er just got one to put in  
What is it then?
look at the clue.
What is it then?
I don't know for a minute wait a minute  
Go and get it and we'll see we'll see if we can help.
What what paper is this in then?
The er Peop er the Mirror.
The Mirror.
The Mirror I've done the Sun.
Right.
I've done the Sun, I'm on the Mirror now.
Erm which one are we on number one down near the courtyard.
What?
Near the courtyard five words .
How many letters?
Five letters.
Begins with a C.
Yeah.
And the third letter is O.
One two  and it's near the courtyard.
Yep.
All right we'll see if anybody knows.
You do that.
All right we'll see we'll see it's not got to fit in with anything else has it?
Er no.
No right and that's er what number down was it?
Number one.
One down in the Mirror .
Yes that's it.
Cos I always like to help.
And we'll see if anybody knows then we'll pass it on don't you think about it now don't you fret about it cos some somebody will have worked it out and will ring and tell me.
So er you can just continue now putting your feet up I think Joyce 
Oh yes definitely.
The best thing  don't worry yourself.
All right so it's er it's one down in the Mirror crossword it's C something O something something
That's right.
And it's near the courtyard.
Yep.
All right then.
I think it must be close
We'll we'll see 
perhaps could be couldn't it?
See how the it could be couldn't it?
Definite.
The brain's just worked.
Erm Kids' County Joyce here's the clues.
He's famous he's got a wife 
The Sheriff of Nottingham 
Eh? he's normally on the news 
The Sheriff of Nottingham 
Eh?
I wanted to play the clues again.
Oh so sorry
Oh go on let me I like doing that.
Go on then.
The only bit of pleasure I get  Joyce .
Who'd you say it was?
Sheriff of Nottingham.
No.
No.
No but you're on the right lines now.
Oh.
Well you're thinking right now you've got your crossword sussed.
.
And er you think you're right with Kids' County give us a ring soon.
Okay bye.
Tarrah.
Bye bye.
Here's the clues then,
He's famous he's got a wife he's normally on the news he's posh and he dresses up smart he writes he writes papers out.
Who are they on about?
Three four three four three four to call erm David Judd from Eastwood says close is the answer for Joyce's crossword so we worked it out together and we got there so er one down in the Mirror is close.
Cos David Judd from Eastwood says so.
To business with Kids' County here's the clues,
He's famous he's got a wife he's normally on the news he's posh and he dresses up smart he writes he writes papers out.
Now it's not John Major and it's not Martin Brandon Bravo and it's not the Sheriff although we're thinking on the right lines there, and it's not Kenneth Clarke or Brian Clough and it certainly isn't Dennis McCarthy and it's not D H Lawrence either.
Three four three four three four to call for a bash at Kids' County er we'll see if we can sort it out while this is on from the Dooleys.
They're the Dooleys, Wanted by the Dooleys.
If er if you're coming into Radio Nottingham today or ringing up for anything then erm say happy birthday to Victoria who is er on reception and er the birthday cake is lovely.
Mm delicious that whoever made that it's gorgeous and er what else have we got the chocolate and things here brilliant so if you're ringing up for anything say happy birthday to Victoria there cos she's erm celebrating today.
Dunno how old she is but looks good on it anyway erm  the erm  the er let's do these  these bits of paper er lost cats and dogs and things.
The R S P C A at Hyson Green are on seven eight four nine six five.
Er today a er an injured young black female cat found in Lincoln Street in the Baysford area if it's yours seven eight four nine six five er give them a call at the R S P C A at Hyson Green.
A dog lost from Bulwell on Sunday morning it's a Jack Russell with long hair and it's white and black twelve years old and er it's a bitch seven five two seven nine O seven five two seven nine O if you can help.
That's a dog lost from Bulwell on Sunday morning it's a Jack Russell with er long hair it's white and black and it's twelve years old and it's a bitch, seven five two seven nine O if er you can help there.
A dog found it's a black one found on Third Avenue at Carlton and it's a black collie it's young and it has no collar on.
It's now with the Gedling dog warden that one.
Er cat lost, lost since July the twenty sixth  oh I remember it well  er lost in Hendon Rise er it's been seen again in Cromer Road and it's er it's a black fluffy cat and it's male with a bushy tail and a yellow collar and it's got one of these I D chip things under it's skin.
eight seven two five four six eight seven two five four six to call if you can help there.
More from the R S P C A at  Green, seven eight four nine six five found on the twenty ninth of October two black female kittens with collars on found in Aspley, on the twenty first of October a green budgie found in Hyson Green, and on the twenty third of October a white adult female cat with a collar on found in Bulwell.
Seven eight four nine six five to call if any of those are yours.
Nearly done erm Sue in Bulwell needs help with her Amstrad P C W nine five one two.
She can't get any data back  can anyone help ?
If you're an expert on these things these er Amstrad things because I know some they do tend to lose things don't they to disappear of  you just can't get it back out erm can anyone help cos she's stuck with it, seven six double one three four.
It's an Amstrad P C W nine five one two er can anyone help other than saying put it in a carrier bag and lob it off Trent Bridge.
Seven six double one three four to call if erm you can help Sue in Bulwell with her Amstrad problems.
A budgie found found this morning in the Bobsmill area it's yellow and green, two nine three eight two five two nine three eight two five can you call after four o'clock and er last one a cat found in Standhill Road in Carlton found last night it's black and white and it's got a pink collar on, five two six six seven one five two six six seven one.
That's a cat found in Standhill Road in Carlton last night it's black and white with a pink collar and it's five two six six seven one to call if you can help there.
And anything that I can do you for three four three four three four to ring.
B B C radio Nottingham is proud and pleased to take you to the major of far away places so why not spend a November Tuesday night in Rochdale with us.
The warmth and luxury of Scotland will greet Mansfield Town in the third division, Simon Mapletoft is your courier there.
Oh been there already ha?
Well why not try Wolverhampton the golden glow of the amber shirts of Wolves will take on the proudly bar coded Magpies and wouldn't we like to see Notts wallop Wolves.
Well yes we would and you can hear Colin Slater beamed from Molyneaux tonight in a sports special.
Also words from the former England cricket captain Graham Gooch, Nottinghamshire's Jimmy Smith on basketball and of course the globe trotting and well tanned Martin Fisher from five past seven G M T.
Mm lovely must phone and get a brochure for that one.
You've got until nine o'clock tomorrow morning to have route round the attic or down in the cellar to see if you've got a small fortune waiting to be discovered.
Yes tomorrow morning Bruce Fern will be here for our monthly antiques and collectibles phone-in.
So we'll find out together whether you're sitting on a fortune tomorrow morning.
Catherine Marsden will be here tomorrow to give you advice about keeping your skin young and beautiful and Dennis Howell who's always young and fairly beautiful will be looking at the films on T V next week.
There he is like erm a bed sheet with a gob on.
Dennis Roussos and er For Ever and Ever June's on from Mansfield hello.
Hello.
Are you all right?
Yes thank you.
Good you you sorted out and sussed with Loot at Lunchtime for today are you?
I hope so yes.
Well I hope so too and er Sharon from Grantham taking you on hello Sharon.
Hello.
You sorted out as well?
I think so.
Is it is it really dull in Grantham?
Well it's rather dull and cloudy yes.
No I mean just just life in general not the weather .
Oh definitely yes.
Is it very dull?
Yes.
What's the most exciting thing that's happened to you in Grantham?
Not a lot really .
No  paint dried once did it or?
Oh something like that yeah.
Cos you know Grantham has the reputation for being the what was the dullest place in the in the country wasn't it?
Yes.
Or the dullest place in the entire universe.
Probably the dullest in the cosmos.
Yes.
And some people say that's the best thing that happened to it being voted that cos it meant people had done things about it and sorted it out but you think it's still dull as
Yes I do.
dull as er 
Not a lot of activity.
What would you like to do to to sort out Grantham then Sharon?
You know get a bit of life in the place a bit of zest .
Oh I don't know a bit excitement I think 
A bit a bit of vim and vigour.
Wha wha what's your idea of a good time Sharon something exciting for Grantham?
Oh I don't know a bit more for us for us women I think.
Is it like what?
Oh I don't know anything that's going .
Anything that's going for us women.
Yes.
Right I s well I'm sure if er if the Grantham planners are listening then  sound advice for them Sharon isn't it?
Yes.
Anything that's going for us women for them well that'll have them sorted won't it?
Erm look I'll put June on from Mansfield first of all I wanted thirty seconds worth of famous dogs cos we had er why Nottinghamshire's dogs are too dumpy earlier on didn't we?.
Two canines in there June.
Ooh goodness.
isn't it?
In there and Rhubarb I used to like that.
Yes?
Do you remember Rhubarb on the telly wasn't it good that it like came on after Magic Roundabout finished didn't it?
Yes Rhubarb and Custard.
And they put Rhubarb on there.
Yes.
I didn't like it at first cos all the animation was all too fuzzy and wobbly and everything I can remember cos I didn't think it was as good as the Magic Roundabout but then yeah I love it now.
Aha.
Don't we ramble on about some strange things June?
We do don't we?
Don't you think strange but true Sharon from Grantham you've got fifty three to beat are you read?
Yes.
Here we are.
Lassie, Snowy, Wolf, Benji, Lady and the Tramp, a Hundred and One Dalmatians, Hobo, Hooch, Sweep, Dougal, Rin Tin Tin, Spot, Scrappy Doo, Scooby Doo, Bouncer, Rolly, Rebel, oh K-nine,I can't think of any more erm Andrex dog, oh oh dear I can't think of any more.
All this time left I'm not used all this you could have snuck another ten in by now.
Yeah I know I can't think of any more.
But but you're stuck?
Yes.
There er twenty one Sharon and I think that might be a bit on the generous side so you've got to come back next and do the weather forecast for me is that all right?
Oh well I'll try.
Well you you're do your very best won't you I'm sure.
All right I'll I'll I'll talk to you in a minute with the weather forecast and June from Mansfield.
Hello.
I forgot to ask are you busting out all over?
Oh yes.
Oh you are, oh right erm I'm searching for your prize list I know I had one there all these bits of paper you have to bring in every day.
All this I've got it.
Mhm.
Eureka I have found it.
Er you had three and seven and ten yesterday so choose three other ones.
Two.
Number two some sugar free sweets.
Oh.
They're quite nice they are you know.
Yeah.
Another one?
Four.
Number four a big wodgy pile of C Ds.
Have you got a C D machine?
Yes I have.
Oh good and er what sort of things do you like?
Erm classics.
Classics.
Yes.
Ooh I don't know if we've got any classics in there.
I think it might be all er noisy thump thump stuff.
Oh.
we'll sor we'll find you something something on the mellow side, June.
Yes.
Er another one.
Er six.
Number six is er a Radio Nottingham mug.
Oh lovely.
All right a new design new styling.
Yes.
Are you  looking back on tomorrow then ?
Yes I can tomorrow.
Good well I'll I'll talk to you tomorrow.
Why you can't the day after then you mean?
I can't come on Thursday cos I'm doing a charity stall at Chesterfield.
Oh right you're doing that?
Yes.
Well we hope you lose tomorrow  then June I'll talk to you tomorrow .
Have to lose tomorrow won't I.
Bye bye.
Bye.
Tarrah.
Er if you want to come on Loot and Lunchtime tomorrow ten to one quarter to oneish listen in then for the qualifying question and you can come on and take on June from Mansfield who's our reigning champ.
This is erm Paul Young winding up Now I Know What Made Otis Blue.
Paul John and er Now I Know What Made Otis Blue it's radio Nottingham Nottinghamshire's favourite station it's eighteen minutes now to two o'clock.
Buses are er trains are fine say British Rail the er airport's fine as well say er East Midlands Airport no problems there er city centre traffic's all moving fine as well there's work still in Baysford on David Lane and Southwick Street where the crossing is closed expect a delay if you're heading there.
The B six O three O at Edwinstowe is closed between the A six one four and the B six O three four for repairs.
In Collington, Chapel Lane is closed for sewer works there.
In Stapleford there's extra lights on Bessle Lane by the Derby Road junction and in Mansfield, Toot Hill is closed from Bridge Street.
Also in Mansfield there's improvement work still on Chesterfield Road South and Rosemary Street too.
Updates on the traffic throughout the afternoon and the full service at tea time tonight, Alan Clifford on for John Simons between half past four and seven later on radio Nottingham F M one O three point eight and ninety five point five.
Nottinghamshire's favourite with the weather forecast for the rest of the afternoon, we go to Grantham and er Sharon tell us what's coming out the sky?
Hello
Hello off you go.
Dry but dull today outbreaks of light rain this evening, Wednesday will be another dull day, risks of an odd shower.
Thursday outlook for other fog patches will clear then dry but cloudy 
Thank you.
Thank you.
Was er marvellously done Sharon and we got the gist of it.
Oh right 
Give us a call soon won't you?
Pardon?
Give us a ring soon.
I will yeah 
And I hope I hope they sort out something in Grantham for us women for you .
Yes so do I.
All right then.
Right thank you bye.
Tarrah bye bye.
Er Loot at Lunchtime back tomorrow ten to one quarter to oneish listen in then and we'll give you the qualifying question.
Now Simon Ratcliffe's been in er all this lunchtime sort of keeping an eye on me haven't you Simon?
Yes.
Sort of er watching what I'm doing and everything and er you're not bored yet are you?
No
No give it time give it time.
Have you seen er oh no Dennis hasn't come it yet actually I was going to say have you seen 
I've I've looked but he hasn't come in .
Sitting in the other studio but actually it's Carl in there now and it's it's not Dennis in there at all and er how on earth I almost confused the two I don't know.
But you want to say thank you to some people don't you you said.
Yeah
Off you go.
Firstly can I say thank you to Asda and Long Eaton who I work for for allowing me the day off so I can come into Radio Nottingham.
Bless 'em.
Bless 'em all thank you as well to Radio Nottingham for allowing me to come in as part of my successful bid for Money Spinner.
Well thank you for your money  I mean that's 
That's the thing yeah.
And finally thank you to anybody else who know me for whatever they've done during the year thank you.
All right then well thank you Simon that's a broad thank you and and thank you very much for your money as well a hundred and fifty quid he gave that's loads of dosh er to to come in for the day as well and I'm going to take you out for a a nice lunch in a bit when he can wonder around have a poke around everywhere this afternoon too so should be all right shouldn't it that?
More to come yeah.
Yeah more to come yeah so it's it's worth all the dosh.
Er Cilla Black this er she's to come now and er You're My World this one ooh go for the high notes.
That Billy Joe Spears erm and er A Blanket on the Ground.
It's Radio Nottingham it's eight minutes to two Ann Green from Mansfield got the er family ticket to go to Alton Towers for spotting the firework noise popping up at the beginning of Billy Joe Spears.
So Ann Green from Mansfield off to see the Alton Towers fireworks display at the weekend enjoy it be brilliant.
Kids' County these are the clues.
He's famous he's got a wife he's normally on the news he's posh and he dresses up smart he writes, he writes papers out.
There who are they talking about so far anyway it's not Kenneth Clarke or Brian Clough or Dennis McCarthy  or er  D H Lawrence or John Major or Martin Brandon Bravo or the Sheriff.
Freda's on from Hucknell, hello Freda.
Hello.
Hello how are you ?
Are you all right?
Yes thank you, listening to you.
Good.
Having little little laughs about you.
Well why what have I done?
One of the ladies that she was talking about the dogs she said Freda you see.
Yeah.
Well it reminds me when I was in a shop on the High Street  for many years and a little boy and girl came in with a, with an Alsatian dog, a puppy.
Yeah.
And I said what a lovely little puppy, what's her name, and it said Freda.
.
I said Freda they says yes we've named it after you because we like you.
Oh was it.
You know er you know in Woollaton Hall?
Yes.
You know that big monkey that's in there that big stuffed monkey that's called 
that's Freda.
Eh?
Don't say that's Freda.
No that's called Geoff.
Oh is it?
That is but I don't think it was after me.
Oh.
but it is.
Was it re , oh I say.
Oh well this  was a nice Alsatian .
Was it?
You're obviously happy today Freda aren't you?
I always am.
We find you in jovial and jolly mood which is a good thing.
Oh I always am.
I'm looking outside at the lovely trees changing the colour.
They was once green and now they're yellow, they're gorgeous.
Really gorgeous.
Do you like it, you like autumn do you Freda?
No I like spring.
I like spring best cos autumn's dirty.
Do you like spring when you can start to feel frisky?
What at my age?
Don't you Fre well you never know.
I'm at the age, that er more things come to you than your old age pension book.
You'll come to that Geoff if you're lucky.
Well I kno yes.
Yes.
I think I'm catching you up.
Look I 
Look I, Kid's 
Kids' County who are they talking about?
I've got two names really but my first one is Councillor Pettit.
No.
Well it  
only one bite at the cherry .
the other one is then?
Well  I don't want to know.
All right then.
All right.
Bye bye.
Give us a ring soon bye bye.
Bye bye.
Tarrah.
Pete's on, from Ilkeston, hello.
Hello.
How are you?
All right thanks.
and your bit of Ilkeston treating you well is it?
Yes not too bad.
Good good a anything going off of note?
Er no not really, they just had their local fair last week but er.
Oh yes Ilkeston fair, did you go?
No.
Why?
Cost too much money.
Y well, what was it, a couple of quid a ride or something or?
Well I think they put them up to, yeah two, two fifty a ride, yeah.
Did they?
Yes.
A lot innit that?
It is.
That's a lot,you can't have a go on everything, can you?
No you can't.
Unless  unless  you're worth a bob or a hundred.
Look erm 
Well that's right.
Kids' County who do we need Pete?
Er I'd say it were Dr Hilary Jones.
No.
No.
It needs to be somebody who's got something to do with Nottinghamshire.
Oh.
And er, unless you know something that I don't, I don't think he has Pete.
Yeah okay then.
I don't think so.
Tarrah.
Right cheers.
Bye bye give us a ring soon.
Dorothy's on from Carlton, hello Dot.
Hello.
How are you?
Fine.
May I call you Dot?
Yes.
You don't mind do you ?
.
You don't mind do you, you don't give a monkeys, do you Dot?
No.
Well that's the way to be.
Can I say congratulations for Money Spinner  
Oh 
worthy cause and fantastic we were glued to the radio all weekend.
Oh were you?
Good.
I think my 
I've got the autograph book and
Oh right at the end did you ?
Clayderman collection the lot of it I get 
Oh brilliant I think my gob's just recovered from that.
I bet.
There all that ranting at the end.
Anyway look there's Kids' County er Dorothy who do we need?
Lord Mayor of Nottingham?
Yes  Oh thank the Lord for that.
Got to thank the Lord Mayor for that  actually Dorothy .
Er you can have some er some sweets and things.
You can have erm loads of toffees.
You can have a video.
You can have some mugs and you can have loads of nuts in tubes and all sorts, all right?
All right, thanks very much.
Tarrah.
Tarrah.
Bye bye er that's that done, now we'll do another one tomorrow.
Now Nottinghamshire's big bang, a week of pretty fireworks day two.
Guy Fawkes has got to answer for, hasn't he.
In a few days time we'll be sitting him on top of a bonfire and standing around in the cold night while we light up the sky with loads of colour.
Bit strange when you think of it like that.
It's the time of year, of course, when the fire brigade can be busy, when things go wrong.
Mike Stone is an Assistant Divisional Officer for the Fire Safety Department of the Nottinghamshire Brigade.
Most of our extra work comes in fact the run-up to er bonfire night.
Certainly over the years the the major proportion of our fire fighting, in terms of secondary fires, what we term secondary fires, the bonfires, was always concentrated around this period and going back quite a few years we used to have special appliances put on standby, extra crews and so on.
But because of the advent now of erm organized bonfires, that risk has receded but having said that it has only receded, not gone away.
These problems is erm young people, using fireworks in not the proper manner.
We still get an , er quite a few calls where fireworks have been pushed through letter boxes,in including pillar boxes, and they can cause all sorts of havoc although they'll not do an awful lot of damage to individuals.
But then of course with erm, the modern fireworks there is still in injury problem.
Seventeen people were injured last year that we know of, er probably many more were injured that never even bothered to report it, and that's just in Nottinghamshire.
So we and that's that really is er is too higher proportion for this day and age, particularly with all the publicity that's being put out.
So what care should you take when handling fireworks?
Richard Lowe and Jean Terrington are the directors of Fireworks Galore in Bulwell.
The first thing of course is to follow the firework code, which is to keep the fireworks in a box and closed until you're ready to use them.
To read the instructions which is paramount and every firework has instructions on.
To light it at arms length and then to stand well away while it fires and never return to a firework if it doesn't seem to go off.
And particularly don't do something that's foolish or thoughtless or silly.
Use a bit of common sense because they can be quite powerful.
When you start to build bonfires in someone's back garden, there's never enough space between the fire and the property, and consequently you can get all sorts of damage er either of a minor nature of blistering, or at the other end of the scale complete burn out of the house.
Bonfire night is one of those traditions that we perpetuate and if it is to be perpetuated, then go to organized bonfires.
You'll get better value for money, better fireworks and it's going to be a d a darn sight safer.
One classic er case that only occurred a few years ago and it was way before bonfire night, but erm, people working from home to try and make a little bit of pin money, a young lady had taken on the task of putting sparklers into five into a little bag for a particular manufacturer.
This was done from her own home and there were something like fifty thousand sparklers in that house with young children running around.
Now when we came across that it was dealt with very quickly and the, er sparklers were removed, but, er you know, the potential danger there particularly with young children running around, might want to play with a sparkler, with thirty or fifty thousand of the things in the same room.
So that that sort of thing we've come across.
Other things are where people are throwing fireworks around thinking it's a great joke, erm serious injuries have occurred in the past with that.
We've had houses set on fire, we've been to a furniture factory, manufacturers, er they have had a loss of, massive loss through erm a sky rocket falling into their timber yard.
So you know there are lots of things like that happening.
Nottinghamshire's big bang day two with the fire brigade, chunk three tomorrow.
It's Dennis next Tuesday afternoon so it's Where Are You Now on Afternoon Special, on the county's favourite radio station, it's B B C Radio Nottingham at two o'clock.
Radio Nottingham news with Rob Thomlinson.
British Coal have put Calverton Colliery into review, but the pit's six hundred and forty miners must wait another twenty four hours to hear whether they intend closing the pit or just reducing its workforce.
A meeting will be held at Calverton Miner's Welfare tomorrow morning.
The President of the Union of Democratic Mine Workers has condemned British Coal.
Neil Greatorex says they refused to answer questions on the long term future of the industry.
We're no better off now than what we were before.
What they've actually done today is announced that they want to put er Calverton into review and at least it tells people at Calverton what the situation's going to be for the future.
They've not said a word on the rest of the industry and in fact won't say it and they've been pressed very very hard on what the future entails for the rest of the coal field.
It looks like they're going to announce it by stealth, one pit at a time and take it right through the review procedure at three month stages.
Preston Crown Court has been told that the two eleven year old boys accused of murdering the Merseyside toddler James Bulger, blamed each other for most of the violence.
On the second day of the trail the trial rather the prosecution said that in interviews with the police the pair had demonstrated a fluent capacity to tell lies.
The two boys both deny abducting and murdering two year old James in February.
The funerals are being held today of the seven people who died when Loyalist gunmen attacked a bar at Greysteel in County Londonderry on Saturday night.
Five of the victims have been buried this morning at their local church in Greysteel.
From there Peter Hunt reports.
It was a dignified and deeply moving occasion, the funerals of five ordinary people leading ordinary lives until they were gunned down by Loyalist terrorists.
Three of the coffins arrived at the Star of the Sea Church together.
Hundreds walked behind them holding hands.
The body of eighty one year old James Moore was carried into the church by his brothers some of his twenty two grandchildren walked behind.
During the funeral mass there was much talk of sadness, grief and bewilderment but no reference to revenge.
The congregation heard the retired Bishop of Derry, Dr Edward Daley urge politicians to treat what he called this intolerable situation with the urgency and priority it deserved.
Two more men have been arrested by police investigating the shootings at Greysteel eleven people are now being questioned.
Meanwhile the Prime Minister is understood to be arranging a series of meetings with the leaders of all the main constitutional parties in Northern Ireland.
Yesterday Downing Street said Mr Major had concrete proposals to put before the parties to achieve a lasting peace in the province.
The first meetings are expected to take place on Thursday.
Nottingham Crown Court's been told that a taxi driver sexually assaulted a woman passenger after ignoring her  This report from Chris Throup.
Forty one year old Kumar  of King Street in Worksop denies indecently assaulting the twenty seven year old woman in October last year.
The court heard she went to a taxi rank in Worksop and asked to be taken to an address where her mother lived.
The woman told the court  drove her instead to Clumber Park where he unclipped the sign on his taxi then assaulted her in the vehicle before driving her back to Workshop.
The whole episode allegedly lasted about an hour and a half.
told the police it never took place.
The trial continues.
Sixteen labour MPs are calling on the North Nottinghamshire Health Authority to relocate all the staff from the Harlow Wood Orthopaedic Hospital when it closes.
In a Commons motion they say they deeply regret the decision to shut the hospital which they argue is a direct result of Government reforms in the National Health Service.
Police believe organized groups of teenagers are behind a spate of thefts from shoppers at Long Eaton.
They say gangs of youngsters have been targeting elderly people in the town centre and stealing purses from them.
There have been several thefts including some yesterday and last Friday.
Police are appealing for witnesses.
The weather forecast now for Nottinghamshire.
Much of the daylight hours should remain dry but dull the temperature only rising to seven Celsius, forty five Fahrenheit which will feel chilly in the easterly breeze.
Outbreaks of mainly light rain are expected this evening but these should die out around midnight.
B B C Radio Nottingham news, it's five minutes past two.
Hello and welcome to Tuesday's edition of Afternoon Special linking the East Midlands.
With it being Tuesday our all important feature our missing persons feature Where Are You Now around about half past three.
If you've lost touch with a friend relative or neighbour we could find them for you this afternoon if they're still in the East Midlands.
Call us on Nottingham three four three four three four if you want to go on Where Are You Now the feature we have at half past three but ring soonest please.
On the hour the news and weather, and we'd like to hear from you this afternoon cos we have a phone-in and you can take part and have a chat on the air.
Simply ring us on Nottingham three four three four three four to have a chat.
You have to dial the code O six O two if you are ringing from outside the Nottingham area.
Music throughout the programme and a musical competition at the beginning giving you a chance to win a prize if you can answer the question about the record.
And we'll sort out last week's postal competition so don't ring in for this one and the question was, What's this got to do with a company?
We'll sort out four winners.
Yes we've got four winners I think after the record.
What's this got to do with a company?
What's that got to do with a company?
That's the question we asked last week, well because they're chairman of the board.
The group is called Chairman of the Board that's what it's got to do with a company  and er  corny isn't it.
Never mind.
Er prize goes to J Saxton of , New Whittington Chesterfield.
You get a prize for telling us it's Chairman of the Board that's what it's got to do with a company.
You too you too Joanne Sullivan of , Boston a prize for you.
And for Mrs Stephanie Pearson of , Coleville and one more coming out the bag and it turns out to be C Fletcher of , Chilwell.
You win a prize as well.
All said Chairman of the Board that's what it's got to do with a company.
All right that's how we play the game a question's asked about every record we play the question about this next record give us a ring on Nottingham three four three four three four if you know the answer is, Which local group had a hit with this one?
And the question is, Which local group had a hit with that one?
On the line from Lutterworth, Glenys  Glenys.
Hello
Yes.
Is it the Marcels?
Well which local group had a hit with that one?
Oh oh I thought it was made by the Marcels.
No the question is 
Oh 
which local group had a hit with that one ?
Showaddywaddy.
Yes.
Oh .
Yes.
Yes all right so you get a prize.
Can you call for it any 
Er no they're going to send it to me  
Okay all right okay.
Okay.
Bye.
Bye.
And from Church Gresley Angela  is it?
Hello Dennis Angela .
Angela  yes  you'll al always get called that
I do yeah.
What were you going to say?
Er Showaddywaddy.
Tell me one more hit with Showaddywaddy?
Oh Under the Moon of Love?
Brings you a prize.
Thank you very much.
Can you call for it or what?
I'm sorry no I'm afraid I can't.
They know your address?
Yes.
Right we'll send it.
Thank you very much Dennis.
Bye Angela.
Bye.
Yes Showaddywaddy of course had the er big hit our local group from Leicester.
Erm ah here's an interesting one, How many legs have these got?
How many legs have these got?
Call us on Nottingham three four three four three four please.
And the question is, How many legs have that lot got?
That's the question, from Hull we've got Carolyn Holden, Carolyn?
Hello.
Hello how many legs?
The Beatles so it would be eight.
All right er er I'll buy that er a prize for you.
Okay thanks.
Thanks a lot.
Bye
Bye.
Er told you it was a bit crazy.
Baysford Ada Kerry what were you going to say?
I was going to say the same, the Beatles eight legs.
Give me another hit of the Beatles.
Oh dear 
Another hit of the Beatles.
No good?
I can't think off the top  of my head 
You can't name a hit of the Beatles.
No.
Oh dear all right okay well thanks for trying.
Okay bye .
Bye postal one coming up now and for the postal one the question about this record is, What's Christmassy about this?
What's Christmassy about this?
Answers this time on a postcard please to, The Music Quiz, Linkmail, four one four, Derby, Leicester, Lincoln or Nottingham whichever is closest to you.
Postcards to be here by Tuesday of next week on that postcard, What's Christmassy about this?
Now the question is, What's Christmassy about that record?
Answers on a postcard please to, The Music Quiz, Linkmail four one four, Derby, Leicester, Lincoln or Nottingham whichever is closest to you.
Postcards to be hear by Tuesday of next week.
What's Christmassy Christmassy about that record?
That's the question on the Music Quiz.
Er now   Who was that er well not who was that but er that's another record from er the Music Quiz competition, What's Christmassy about that record?
The same as the previous record.
Answers on a postcard by Tuesday.
On on Friday the twelfth of November that's a week on Friday at the Royal Concert Hall in Nottingham, a very special concert for those who love the big bands and the vocalists that go with them.
The concert is by the Ted Heath Band and it's a gala concert at the Royal Centre in Nottingham on Friday November the twelfth because in attendance will be Mrs Moira Heath, Ted's widow er Jack Parnell will be on drums, Kenny Baker on trumpet and one of the country's great song stylists will be the guest singer.
Dennis Lotus who's on the line from his home now.
Good afternoon.
Hello Dennis.
You've had to wait for me I'm afraid.
Well that's okay I'm lying in bed so it didn't make any difference.
No that's right you were supposed to be here facing me in the studio and you gone and got ill.
I know I'm sorry about that.
But okay you're going to be all right for the concert a week on Friday?
Well I hope so I sincerely hope so I think I shall be though.
You must have been spoilt rotten Dennis Lotus, er singing with a band like Ted Heath.
How can you sing with any other band after that?
Oh I don't know actually it it was it was quite dramatic when I left the band because I went into variety you know and er some of those put bands are something else, cos some of the guys were sort of semi pros like just come from the mine shaft you know.
I remember going to one rehearsal up in Durham and I said, Well where's the trumpet player? and they said, Well he hasn't come off shift yet.
Oh dear oh dear  bit frightening isn't it?
Oh yeah but still you know we got through it was great.
But it was a marvellous grounding wasn't it Ted Heath ?
Ah tremendous I mean it's a wonderful apprenticeship I mean I don't know where the guys go now young fellows 

Right then Leona er when did you move to the flats?
December eighty one.
And erm where did you move from?
I was near  at the time, with Tiffany, in Mansfield.
.
And before that?
Before that I was erm living with some fr friends in Liverpool.
And before that I was m back in Nottingham.
Where did you originate from?
Nottingham.
Where about?
Edge Lane estate.
It's in between Sherwood and Bestwood.
Did you live there with your parents?
Mm.
Was it, did you have any er any brothers or sisters?
I've got  I've got two brothers and one sister.
Do they live in Nottingham?
My sister lives in Edinburgh, me two brothers live in Nottingham.
Do they live in the flats?
No.
Ted used to.
He used to live on the erm in the , but he doesn't any more.
When did he move out?
Ooh.
About eighteen month ago.
Might be more, yeah about eighteen month ago.
Was that to move to another council house?
No, bought his own house.
Erm compared to other places you've lived in erm how does this flat stand up to the comparison?
Well, I mainly, up until, when I started to live on my own, I mainly lived in bed and breakfasts, or shared houses, so this is one of the better sort.
Really.
. It's really my ow first very own place of my own.
Do you like it?
No.
I never have liked it.
Why not?
Well  for a start half of them, the shape of them isn't very conven it's not very good for ar arranging things.
And er you can't really do much because of the stone walls and there's too much window and too much noise, and you get quite a few insects in them, and  they're just generally not very nice at all.
In fact there's only two good points about them and that's you've always got hot water, and your h heating, you're always warm.
That's the only two good points about them.
You say you had, the shape of the rooms,what sort 
Mhm.
Well I mean l l look at this shape, I mean it's a like an L shape, it's erm very unpractical .
I mean having to come upstairs before you even get into the house isn't very good either, cos I mean with kids you've got to carry the pushchairs up and everything and carry kids up and carry all your shopping up, it's not, it's not very practical having them upstairs.
Erm,y y you say the heating's alright?
Mm.
Erm  I mean does it deliver enough heat all the time?
Most of the time, yeah, I mean, they're usually very good.
I've only had ever about two complaints in four and a half years, and that's not very bad, that's only because the filter needed cleaning, mostly.
What about your hot water?
Do you get that?
Is that 
Mhm.
part of it?
Oh yeah.
It's always there, I mean erm  that's one of the advantages you can have a bath every day.
That's something I'll miss when I move, cos  paying for it, you don't, well I know you pay for it here, but it's all in and
Oi!
Er now why did you actually move to the flats?
Cos it was the only, it was either here or the Balloon Woods, cos I was er I was given an emergency placing, it was either here or Balloon Woods, and at the time I didn't fancy Balloon Woods, but I wish I'd taken it now, I'd be, I'd have my own  place by 
Erm  so, you, you were on emergency, is that because you're a single parent?
Mm, yeah.
Er  you say there was a choice between this and Balloon Woods, why did you actually choose ?
Well, cos it was in town, it was nearer to shops, and erm I'd heard that keeping Balloon Woods' flats warm was costing people a hell of a lot of money.
Cos it was in with the electric bills, and I didn't want that, and that was one of the advantages that made me decide to have here, cos I knew that the heating was in with the rent.
Erm, so did you have any friends when on the estate at first?
Not at the time, no, but I'm, I knew people that were on here, from other places you know, so  I met 
other people, so
How do you find it, erm er socializing with people?
You can't really around here, cos everybody's suspicious of everybody else.
And er as I say, the only people I know on here now, are people that I've met actually off here.
Or through people that I knew before.
You say people are suspicious of each other wh wh what do you mean by that?
Well, I mean  erm I dunno really, you sort of get the feeling that they're suspicious, cos I mean there's so many things go on here, that they're not sure erm about you, I mean if somebody else doesn't know you, then they're not sure about you.
So d what sort of things go on in the flats?
Well 
booze  erm drugs, prostitution, that sort of thing.
And d d th th do they actually go on, or is it, sort of exaggerated?
It's not exaggerated.
It does go on.
Er, do you think it gives  a particularly bad name?
Oh yes, it definitely does.
Er did you know about this  when you were  offered the flat?
Did you know it had  
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
I knew about it.
But it didn't bother 
No, cos I knew I wouldn't associate with erm erm  people and I wouldn't get into it.
I mean, I'm not messing against what anybody else does, and I wouldn't try and interfere with what anybody else does, but I wouldn't get involved with them.
Right Leona, can you, can you just go over s the places you lived in before you actually moved to the flat?
Well I've lived in quite a few places, I've, I say, before I came here, I was at mother and baby Home, and before that I was living with friends in Liverpool, and before that I was in Nottingham at a bed and breakfast place, lodgings, and er 
Were they, was that through the council?
No it wasn't.
No.
And then erm, before that I got, I was living with friends again, in Nottingham.
And then erm I was at home for a while, and then I was living with friends in Birmingham, and in, in between time I've been to Leeds and London.
Not for very long though, but erm most of the time I spent away living in Birmingham.
And you say you've never lived anywhere sort of similar to the flats?
You've not lived 
No.
in .
So they've, have they been terraced or something like that?
Yeah, one, I shared a house in er , in Forest Fields,
Where, where's that?
Forest Fields.
Yeah.
I shared a house there.
And erm, so  I haven't really had a place of my own until I got this one, and it's usually lodgings or sharing.
Yeah.
Now erm  there are quite a few sort of single parents on the, the flats, now erm  are there any problems that you've had which possibly other people have had, with living in the flats?
Any er particularly bad points that make it difficult for you?
Well, erm I  I have been accosted a few times to do a few things, you know erm  like I say, prostitution, they think probably because you're on your own, everybody else, because one, say one person in the block is one, then you are one as well, you know.
You're tarred with the same brush.
And erm  ?
Plus I have had, I have been m mugged while I have been out.
I had my purse pinched, that wasn't very good.
Erm and you do feel shut in at nights when you're on your own.
Erm  which isn't any help at all, it shows the people they're on their own anyway, cos you feel more lonely that way.
You get more lonely, which doesn't help in here, and I mean say, I mean the view isn't very n this view is very drab, and if you'd got something to look at it wouldn't  wouldn't matter so much, but erm
Not re 
Okay.
Yeah, and it's, it's very lonely in here if you don't really know people.
Erm especially now that everybody's moving away and most of the people you know have probably gone, or going, or they probably won't be moving near you any more.
Did y you said that you had your purse stolen, did someone actually break into the flat?
No, I was walking up the ramps and it was ripped out of my hand actually.
I, cos I had the strap on my arm, it was pulled off that.
Did you actually, did you go to the police about it?
Yeah.
Did they do anything?
No.
What could they do?
You know, it happens quite a few times, doesn't it?
Erm  so y you never got it back, or anything?
No.
So are y I don't think we actually established, are, are you erm are you unemployed?
Yeah.
So you're on Supplementary?
Yeah.
Erm, have you had any jobs in the past, have you worked in the past?
, I was seventeen, I worked at the Flying Horse.
It's a pub isn't it?
Yeah, it's a pub cum hotel, it's a hotel thing.
Erm how'd you find it living on the money get on Social Security?
It's difficult, but you can manage.
I mean anyone who says they can't manage on what they get, er they can't feed the kids on what they get, probably go in the pubs five or si six nights a week, and smoke too much and but erm  I mean these never go without a meal or anything like that.
I mean we're no when we have s like egg and chips, it's cos we want to, not because we've got to.
You know?
I mean do you manage to keep s sort of quite a good diet?
Or do y 
Oh yeah.
I mean every Sunday, we have a, a Sunday dinner, I mean it's usually chicken, cos it's the cheapest one there is, but I mean we still have a Sunday dinner, we have fresh veg and everything.
I mean there's not many, probably not many families round here that could say that.
Do you actually shop locally then?
Yeah.
And erm how, how do you, do you do your shopping, do you do it once every fortnight, or do you ?
No, I er do it as I need it actually.
I mean I get a few things in every week that, you know that you need, that you know  er I go out on Monday and get everything else for the week like washing powder, and that sort of thing but u for food, I just get it every day.
Do you go into the centre much?
About once a week.
What's that, is that for shop food and things?
No, just to go out, cos I'm wanting   
just to go out on a Monday with her, cos she doesn't have nursery on a Monday, Tiffany.
So we go out and have a meal out.
I mean I can have, even afford meals out.
So do you budget quite tightly then?
Mhm.
I mean even when I smoked I did.
I mean I, I could s I could still get what I needed.
Do you think a lot of people do that, or do you think you're particularly sort of 
I don't know, people l I'm  of them say they can't afford to pay the kids, and get the food for the kids, and they'll have to give them chips a couple of, every day of the week or whatever, but th there's no need for that.
I mean if, if people smoke too much, I mean they should put the kids before the c the cigarettes, and erm  people I have heard say that, I've seen in the pub three or four nights a week.
If they can afford to go there, then why don't they, you know, if you have two pints in there I mean it's, it's a meal really, cos I, I could give these kids a meal for about a one pound, one pound fifty.
And that's, that's feeding us.
Do, do you go out to the pub much yourself?
No.
I don't.
so you don't go out for drinks,?
No, I mean, last time I went out would be erm well I've been out in the afternoon a few times, with my boyfriend, but, the last time I went out in the evening
would be about eighteen month ago.
And it doesn't bother me cos I put their, them first.
D so I mean what do you find to do, I mean, how do you spend your time?
Oh, me and my boyfriend play cards, and watch telly, and that sort of thing.
Play dominoes.
Right, so you sort of er find activities that you can actually
Yeah, do in the house.
Yeah.
Do together.
Er y do you find it difficult to find people to look after the children, or is it just that you, you wouldn't want to go out?
No, I could get a baby-sitter, it's just that I don't want to go out.
I mean my, my money is erm 
Mm.
you know, the money is put towards their f food and things, rather than giving it to somebody else   .
Er where, where do the erm children go in the day time?
Do they go to a play er s school?
Well, erm, Adrian goes on a Mondays and Tuesdays to nursery, and on a Wednesdays and Fridays to his dad, and Tiffany goes on a Tuesday and Thursday and Friday to nursery.
Which nursery's that?
.
How did you get the n th the them into that?
Well she need needed it for erm her speech, and then when he came along, he just nearly automatically got one because everybody got one in really.
Well, not automatically, but they thought it would be a good idea to have him in.
To 
What 
keep an eye on him, see if his speech was too slow in talking.
Erm w why didn't you send them to the ones on the fla on the flats?
I couldn't get them in there.
Was it full?
Mhm.
I mean there's not really one in the flats that is suitable really.
Wh wh what do you mean, what's
I mean, they need a nursery not a playgroup, there's a difference.
I see.
Erm  d d do your children have, have many friends on the flats?
Do they mix with the children in the flats?
No, no.
She's got one friend over there, erm on , but not really.
Not really, no.
Do you let them out to play 
No.
Why's that?
Because you think they're too young or what?
I don't erm, yeah, I do think they're too young to be out here, because er you can't keep an eye on them.
Especially nowadays, with things going, I mean I'm not saying really round here  like that, but you never know do you?
Right, now you've said where you've, where you've lived before and how you got here erm now you're on the phasing aren't you?
Er
Yeah, in fact I've got a, I've been allocated a place, but it's not ready for me yet.
Yeah.
So you're, you're, you're pha I mean phase four right?
Phase four, yeah.
Right.
Now,wh wh where did you put your name down to go?
Bilborough, Sherwood or Woollaton.
As I say, I've got a house in Woollaton, but it's not ready yet.
They're doing it up, or doing something to it.
What, why did you decide to go to those areas?
Well, Bilborough, my mother lives at Bilborough, I thought it'd be nice to be near her, my dad lives up Sherwood, and I used to, I used to live up Sherwood, it's a good place and got a good school.
And I think Woollaton speaks for itself, I mean it's   don't you ?
Erm so what's, what's the place like that you got?
Three-bedroomed house, front and back garden.
And I haven't, as I say I haven't seen it yet, but erm I've had a look at it but not actually been inside it, because they're doing, still doing it up.
And is it the sort of place you were looking for?
Mhm.
Three bedroom and everything.
Yeah.
Erm will you be glad to move out of the flats?
Definitely.
Definitely.
Will there be anything you miss about them?
As I say, only the heating and the hot water.
That I must technically pay for it.
Do you think you'll be able to ma 
That is the only thing.
Do you think you'll be able to manage with the bills and that?
Yeah.
Right then.
Now, you worked for the erm the tenants' action group, didn't you for a time?
Yeah.
.
How wh when was that?
Erm  about nineteen eighty two to three, it'd be.
Wh what, what was actually going on at the tenants' group then?
A a at the time, they were trying to get this place looked at and surveyed, and everything to get it, you know to see what they could do about it, get it closed down, but er they hadn't got that far with that then.
Erm they hadn't got a survey going, they'd got coming round to have a look at it, and they'd got the environmental health from London to have a survey of it, and er everything.
Y you were secretary weren't you?
Yes.
Erm what, what was the feeling that came over to you from the tenants' group at the time?
Did it feel like it was a well-organized group, or did it feel ?
Well a a a at the time, they'd just changed over from the erm  Tenants' Development Association, to the  Tenants' Action Group, so it was a bit disorganized to begin with, cos we were still sorting out the, everything from what they'd left over and things, so, but once we'd got that all so once they'd got that all sorted out, yeah, it was.
Erm, did you think it reflected the views of the tenants?
Most of them, yeah.
Most of them.
About ninety percent of them.
And did you have anything to do with the Development Association?
No I didn't.
.
So y y you wouldn't know about the ins and outs of what went on when they ?
No.
Mhm.
Erm erm  so y you were, you were with the tenants' erm association, eighty two eighty three?
Mm.
Erm, have you had anything to do with them since?
Have you 
No, not really, no.
Do, have you, do you go to the meetings ?
No.
Is that, what, cos you know you're moving out now?
Mm.
.
Erm  I just want to go back and talk about a few things we just touched on earlier.
Er now you were saying about crime in the area.
Erm have y you had your, your purse stolen?
Mm.
Have, have you ever had trouble with kerb crawlers or anything like that?
Well a couple of times.
But er maybe once or twice, as I say I usually go out with my kids, and they don't usually stop you.
look at me but otherwise, you know, they don't usually stop you if you've got a kid with you.
And can you  does it, I mean obviously it bothers you, but I mean 
Well I just tell them to get lost in not so  polite words .
So what, what do you actually think about the er the prostitutes, and ?
Well, I mean er I've got nothing against them.
I mean, in fact I, I'm one of the people that believe that in, in a way it should be, it should be legalized.
I think it should be legalized.
But erm, it's the kerb crawlers, I mean I've always thought that if it wasn't for prostitutes, there's going to be a hell of a lot more rapes around, so
Mm.
Mm.
So just keeping on the same sort of subject, of sex, drugs and ,
Yeah.
violence, erm the other people I've spoken to have mentioned blues parties, now d have you ever had?
Yeah, I've had blues parties next door.
Could you just t tell me about what actually happened?
Well it wasn't too bad actually, cos when I went upstairs and shut every door and I wouldn't, didn't really hear anything.
next door didn't really bother me, cos once I'd shut the door, shut the doors, it was, there was hardly any noise, but then erm  the guy that had got the place, he wasn't living there, lent it out to somebody else, blues, and they moved them u upstairs as well.
And erm I wasn't actually in the bedroom, and that did bother me.
I had one night of that, and when he came round in the morning, I told him.
I mean luckily enough, I went to junior school with him.
I mean if I hadn't have known him, then there's no way I could have talked to him about it.
I mean I says, look I says, I'm not, I'm not saying you can't have your parties or whatever, I says but I says not in the bedrooms.
I says, er that that is going a bit too far, I think.
Erm how loud were they?
I mean did they keep you awake?
Very loud that night, very loud.
I say, the other night, I say it didn't really bother me, but like I'm a heavy sleeper anyway.
But I could just not get to sleep that night, and she was only a baby at the time, she couldn't sleep.
Er what, what, what time did they start and finish, did the blues parties?
Erm, about one o'clock, and finished about half past six, seven.
Mm do you get any trouble from the people coming out of the parties, or going in, did they?
No, the door knocked once or twice, but I mean that, that didn't bother me, so I was asleep m most of the time.
Erm er  is, is that the only experience you've had with blues parties?
Mm.
Mm  right now, now you mention that you phoned the police about when you had your purse stolen, erm are y have, what do you think of the police presence around the flats?
I mean is it helpful, or, or what?
Non-existent.
And if it is, I mean they don't do much.
Erm
Have you seen policemen patrolling the flats?
Oh yeah, I've seen them.
I've seen them, but I mean if, if they saw anything, I think they'd just turn a blind eye to most of it.
Mm.
Have, have you seen anything like that happen, or is ?
Well I don't know how true it is but I have heard from somebody I know, whose husband was a  a plumber, and he came to unplug a toilet at the erm Cricket Players when it closed down, he had to unplug it.
And he found a hell of a lot of flesh down the toilet, human flesh.
And he said from the looks of it there must have been you know sort of dead, whatever it was, and there was a couple of fingers and a couple of toes, right?
But erm police went to visit him again, and says erm you know that's it, you know, you won't, won't, you won't even be needed to make a statement about where you found it, which he thought was a bit funny.
I mean whether they hushed it up or not I don't know.
But I mean I say, I don't know how true that is, I mean I only heard that through somebody else.
I see.
Er talking about er plumbers and er people like that, have erm have, how are you finding getti getting things repaired in the flat?
Well I had to, I had to wait for about eight months or was it s six months to get one of my lights fixed but for er other things they were quite quick actually.
Is that by using the Housing Office on the flat?
Yeah.
Are they very helpful there?
Mm.
Yes.
I found them so.
Do you think it helps them being up with the ?
Oh yeah.
Er I think it does, I think they should have one, one of those sort of places in every  not in every complex, but in every estate.
D do you think your, your  amenity-wise er the flats like they they've got the housing, and the clubs and the playgroup and stuff like that, do you think you're very badly off for that or?
No no, amenity-wise, you're okay, but I mean amenities doesn't make up for sort of living standards you've got, does it?
S so I mean do you try and u do you use things around the area?
Er
Not much no.
Wh why's that?
Because I just don't go out much, that's all.
Mm.
Do you think  is a
Shh.
particularly friendly place or?
No.
No.
Er what makes you say that?
Cos I haven't found it so, that's why.
But I mean  d do you think the people are more unfriendly around here than they are in other parts of the town?
Yeah.
Just the people living around here?
Did erm
Yeah, I think it's b as I say it's because I think people are wary I mean  you know, not sure who's who.
Er do you find people mix around here very well though?
I mean,s I mean there's, it's a multi-racial area.
Do you think that people mix well, or is it a, do, do you feel  
No everybody keeps themselves to themselves, I think which is a shame really, cos erm I think they do that all over the country anyway, most of them, they keep themselves to themselves.
Right.
Now  you're moving to Bilborough, you're moving to Bilborough erm just say in five years time they got rid of the flats erm and they built houses on here on the site, would you move back?
No.
Shh shh.
Erm is that because of the v the area, or because?
Well, I'll be settled in, in my own little place by then, I mean I don't want to move back here, plus that fact that I, I wouldn't want to move back here anyway.

Well James , what can I do for you tonight?
It's  my knee again.
Your knee?
Still giving you trouble Jim?
Aye.
That's a boy, let's have a wee look at it.
See how we're doing.
Did you get X-rays, Jim?
Aye, for  and I still didn't, they didn't show anything.
There's no arthritis or anything?
Good.
That's good.
No there's no  that other thing  the inhaler thing.
Mm.
No sign of any damage with that.
Now then, where, where are you feeling it catching just now?
Here and
Still round there.
this  up here, and, and there's kind of er shooting pains  and
Still a bit puffy down here, isn't it, eh?
That bit doesn't feel so bad.
Mm.
Remember there was we though we thought there 
Aye, a s 
was a wee
scar.
scar across there.
You can still feel a slight  have you been doing your exercises?
No?
Right.
Well, I think you're at the stage now where we could get you doing your exercises, Jim.
It's at, you can feel the slight  in there 
Ah.
Just there , you can feel that, feel that, feel it catching.
But that's softer than it was before.
So that's good.
Now, what we'll need to get you doing, is some exercise to strengthen up the muscle across there.
And pull that scar  tight together Jim.
What, what I want you to do is, just with you sitting just now, just lift your leg up like that, just hold it with your two hands.
And just  do that.
About twenty times a day.
Now your knee'll be sore, when you start doing it, because you, this muscle has to get strengthened up again.
And let that scar get joined up.
But as you keep doing that, every day, it'll get less and less and less painful.
And after about a week, there'll be no pain in it, and you'll be  doing it no bother at all.
And that muscle'll grow over the top of that scar, and it'll get rid of all that for you Jim.
Okay.
Well that's so as you're, you're going to win after all.
You're going to win.
Er, what about the inhalers now, are you still?
Er could I  erm have a prescription for ?
Aye, sure.
I'm still on the  forty.
The be you still on that?
Do you need them?
No, that's just
No, you're all 
it's just I don't have any Ventolin.
Right.
Now then, if you do these wee exercises Jim and then come back up and see me in  about  f say four weeks.
Let's say four weeks.
Okay.
And we'll just check that out again, and make sure that that's all got healed over.
You're at number two?
Yes  number two   You haven't gone and left home since I saw you last, no?
No.
You're still at ?
But that's good, I'm  pleased.
That's   Well, that's since January.
Aye.
It's been really slow.
Cos yeah, er, it er it does worry you.
And er if we can get it to just, well a wee bit of rest, we get to the stage where it er starts to get soft again.
It means we can get the muscle to  grow over the top and bury that underneath and let the whole thing get back to normal.
Okay.
But just nice gentle exercises.
No leaping up and down .
Eh?
Okay?
Yeah.
just do it nice and gently and that'll come back to normal.
Right thanks Doctor.
Okay.
Thanks.
Right.
Bye.
Okay John Cheerio now.

Okay would you like to start then?
Right has everyone had a chance to look at some stuff since last time?
Much.
Okay Sally-Ann, have you had a chance to look at some of the things which we're gonna do today as well?
I haven't had a look at any books at all but, erm I was worried about .
Okay so do you want to run us through some of the things that  we haven't really discussed in detail of what we're gonna talk about in here today, specifically have we, I mean I thought something along the lines of er  the nature and extent of sexual variations in English, or any other language you want.
So in what way can it differ Men and women differ in conversation? and you can make it specific you can just discuss it and make very specific interruptions or turn-taking if you want.
On the other hand you could talk about things in general what the different aspects in the  speech are 
being in other languages as well.
Is this 
yeah I mean okay  cover the languages to show how they did it properly, so if there is something else you want to bring in then that would be good.
But I suppose it would mainly worthwhile concentrating on English, because that's where most of the data's from.
Er I've got some notes here which I can go through  wouldn't actually be necessary but  When Sally-Ann's going through her notes if anyone else would like raise anything which backs it up or disagrees with it or whatever then, you know please you know butt in and say whatever think might might be relevant at the time.
have you stopped the erm  the
The don't  before Easter though.
What ?
I'm not quite sure when the official handing in date for this essay is, because of the fact that some essays have overrun from last term.
I suppose that really, probably is Friday week three but, I don't suppose it has to be.
Which reminds me.
Have I got your last essay in yet or not?
I'm a little bit confused  there and I can't get it out.
Okay.
Honest.
Okay.
Well like I say I'll I'll mark the rest of them when I've got them all in.
I can't really mark then till I don I don't want to mark them until I've got them all in cos otherwise it's not really fair  so hopefully next week sometime.
I  this morning, I've been running around  and I can't get it out .
What is it on WordPerfect?
Hm.
I keep getting  and things like that.
Oh maybe  could go to the advisory after I think they're open till five.
Mm.
If you go there afterwards and what they say.
Er right okay then.
Right erm these notes are sort of based on a lecture that I went to when I was in sixth form erm and the theme for it is, Men And Women, Do We Speak The Same Language?
Erm so first of all sounds and pronunciation.
Er men tend to have a lower pitch on the whole, erm th they're louder and the's due to their physiological differences, erm Jacqueline  once said that, Men try to talk bigger than they are whereas women talk as though they're smaller.
Erm it's been shown that women strive for a  pronunciations and and sort of go more towards the .
Erm some women tend to have more pitch variation and they're more emotional so they're more likely to use encouraging tones er which can sometimes be seen to be slightly patronizing, whereas boys think it's soppy to be  emotional or  expressive way, so that if you're in school and you're asking people to read out in class, erm a girl would be more likely to be more expressive, whereas a boy would be a little bit more monotonous, and just sort of read it out and not put any emotion into it.
And go to words of meaning, erm and the descriptions of colours where men are more likely to say purple whereas women would describe it as aubergine or plum and go into more detail about the shading than the colour.
Then erm names, babies I if a baby's christened Timothy er it gets called Timmy or Nicholas gets called Nicky, which sort of ties in with the biscuits being called bickie and horsie and doggie and all this sort of ee things that you say to babies.
But as soon as the n the kid Nicky hits teenage years then he wants to be called Nick, whereas if the girl's been christened Nicola and she's called Nicky through her childhood, when she hits teens she's still called Nicky.
So girls don't seem to mind the ee thing whereas the the boys do.
Erm also if you look at entertainment, like James Saville calls himself Jimmy Saville, Terence Wogan is Terry Wogan, so but then you look at people like Charlie Chaplin, when he was doing his comedian role he was c he called himself Charlie Chaplin, and when he's directing films he called himself Charles Chaplin, so maybe it's all like a bit  of a serious thing.
So maybe that implies that when  do  the kids have got that ee ending.
Then we go to the taboo language and if you talk about when you go to the toilet, if you Everybody excuses themselves to leave and that's both men and women and then somehow you have to say where you're going, so the women are more likely to use the polite sort of euphemistic kinds of things like they'd say toilet or loo, whereas the men are more likely to say bog.
And they actually say what they do when they get there.
Oh, younger men are more likely to use coarser tones and be more explicit erm although they wouldn't use those sort terms to their father or elder men, and the women are more likely to use euphemisms like Spend a penny, Powder your nose and things like that.
And then we go to grammar.
Women tend to use more standard forms er and men are more likely to use regional dialect forms.
So that shows women are more status conscious and men are more Maybe could be more concerned with their macho image, and they associate the non-standard with macho image.
Erm there is a study where they looked into erm men in the workforce and women and in the workforce and er if men worked together in factories it sort of reinforces their speech patterns, their workmates are reinforcing their speech pattern so they're more likely to use non- standard.
And then there was a study into and area of Belfast where most of the men were unemployed and it was the women who were going out to work in the factory and it was found to be the other way round, and the women spoke more of a non-standard than the men did  when the men were staying at home.
It was the women going out to work.
Then we get use and interaction.
Women tend to use more  questions which sort of softens the effect of what they're saying, so they'll say things like, There we go and the men say things like, Let's go.
Erm women are more likely to use the words such as may, might, possibly, perhaps which seem to be a little less forceful.
In turn-taking men have be shown to interrupt women more than they interrupt other men, er and then there's the use of mm.
Erm it's been shown that men seem to er connect the word mm with I agree, that's what they use it to mean whereas the women tend to use mm as I understand.
Erm so where do these differences come from?
They come from the way  socializes children er during the early school years, boys and girls tend to have different activity, the boys in the groups Are in groups outdoors and the girls and in tos and fros and they're sharing their little secrets and being loyal to each other and whispering away in little corners.
So that women aren't taken seriously.
So do we speak the same language?
Yes, but with differences and we don't always  the same message.
And that's that.
Okay, right.
Has anyone got any other things to add to that?
No.
There was a  when we were talking about erm how er women sit there and chatter, it's sort of trivial.
Said to be trivial erm which meant it isn't erm  book says that erm cos women talk about things like erm children and husband and things,
Mhm
whereas men talk about cars and stuff like that.
And that's  it's not true at all it's just different it considered.
Right, and we've got part of this linked in with the stuff you might have done on Sapir-Wharf Hypothesis in the sense that er people talk about different things because they might be relevant to their actual lives.
Er and of course if you're in one group, you might think that something's trivial and you might denigrate another a group for talking about those things, when in fact that group sees it as an important talk about it might see the thing that the other group hold dear to talk about as something trivial, and to denigrate.
So yeah, I mean that's definitely something that that comes into it.
Erm what sort of d differences are there in conversational styles?
I mean it's a thing you might want to talk think about or you night have read about, things like interjections and er interruptions and overlapping.
and how erm men tend to ignore them, they're like they're not interested and not going to pay any attention.
Right, do you want to explain that a bit more, about
Well things that they  the actually say anything which is sort of a sign that you  listening, understanding but if they delay it, it's say it 's the women that pauses,wanting some sort of  suddenly realizes 
Right.
that women uses use minimal responses anyway, then then  you know like all males speak a male  didn't use minimal responses  
so it wouldn't be that they interruptions listening necessarily it would just be that wouldn't expect to have to.
Yeah, right yeah.
Women use women use minim minimal 
responses  but when men use them it quite often delay .
I mean one thing that's mentioned before is about tag questions, which is where you put on question to the end of your sentence, as in Oh don't you agree or Isn't it or you know you know the sort of thing I mean.
Er now I mean One thing that a lot of the literature says is that this might indicate a power, and another thing that the literature says
is that it tends to be women who do more of it.
It does,and say that erm you say that 
Okay.
but I can't remember
This is one of the things that some studies have shown it to be the case, other studies haven't.
One thing that might be relevant to this is the fact that er one study came up with two different types of tag question, they call the two different tabs, aka tag question Modal tags and Effective tags.
Now modal tag is one for seeking agreement whereas an effective tag is one that shows concern to the addressee and according to this study, if you looked and the sheer number of tags, women did use more tags than men, but in actual fact women used a higher proportion of the effective tags than men did.
Women used seventy five percent effective tags and twenty five percent modal tags, so in general their tags were to show concern rather than to actual seek agreement, so it wasn't showing a lack of power according to this study.
Whereas the men had sixty percent effective tags and forty percent modal which is still the same direction but to a lesser extent.
Which shows that perhaps a misindica In this situation perhaps the men are seeking agreement rather than the women are, because the women seem to be doing it to actually show concern, rather than to seek agreement, which doesn't Turns a lot of the traditional thing about tag questions on it head.
pointed out how tag questions  there's only certain structures you can put them in, that were going to direct it rather than proper questions say someone who's asking all proper questions,is he going to use as many tag questions anyway?
Mhm.
and that sort of the 
that's something else which you might find, a lot of the time in er literature about interaction with children, you might find that er where parents are asking their children to do something, like if they're playing a game, you might find some You'll find that mothers and fathers talk differently to sons and daughters er so you start off with a direct ac action like Put that one there, if they're playing lego or something, straight prom Put that on there down to er Wouldn't it be a good idea to put that on there down to Could you put that on there or Let's put it on there.
And you find more or more or less forceful ways of of giving directives, and one way of making some things perhaps a bit less forceful is to put a tag question on cos it's sort of adding a sort of pleading note on to it, to ask somebody to do it, I think.
Has anyone read anything about turn-taking in conversation?
Yes.
And how that works.
sort of there's a model, a conversational model and if it  if it's if it's  conversation is following a model then it's It means that it's running smoothly
Mhm.
and you erm  you know your next big  and the  mean a  signals as to whether or not it sort of the floor's being offered.
Mhm.
And you've just go to to  generally in single sex conversation it follows the model.
Quite often erm when it's men and women speaking the men will interrupt a little more erm which makes the women fall silent.
Whereas women hardly ever overlapped 
Mhm okay.
So in the two things that can happen in conversation to to give it To make it stop running smoothly  are overlapping and interruption and like some of them are quite difficult to tell apart but usually it's If you're transcribing stuff it's fairly obvious.
What's Can you remember what the point in a conversation is where a speaker has a chance to to become a new speaker?
Like it's it's
T R P
transition relevance point?
Yeah that's the thing I was thinking of the T R P like you say the transition relevance point.
I mean that is like a point in the conversation where a change in turn-taking could ha potentially happen.
Now when you get to a T R P what are the three things that can happen?
I don't know if any of the li any of the stuff you read mentioned this or not.
Erm the the  somebody speaking includes erm address someone to make it really obvious who the next speaker's going to be.
Mhm.
Or it you leave it open and one of the other speakers in the  More than One or more of the other speakers in the conversation could decide to start to talking, or no one could erm start talking  the present speaker at the moment gets another chance to carry on.
Okay that's right, yeah.
Okay has anybody else got anything more on that on that subject?if we go back for a bit and just go back to the
idea of the theory, which is something that probably should have come at the beginning but it doesn't matter too much.
And like there are two different sort of schools of thought about men and women's conversation.
Er one is like the traditional school of though and the other one is like the feminist way of looking at things.
Er just to run through what the two  what the two schools sort of think it will be fair to say that the traditional school thinks as follows.
Er in terms of syntax and pronunciation, women were always thought of as being more careful than men, er a lot of dialectologists in the past considered women to be very conservative in their speech, they ascribed conservatism to them.
Er men and women were always thought to use different specialist vocabularies, that's something else that was said.
Er women were also said to be polite, diffident, verbose and deferential, which
What all of those?
Mhm.
polite and deferential.
Verbose as in when they actually said things, they they did a lot of talking.
I'm not saying this is actually correct but this is the traditional view.
Okay.
Except that women were deferential to other speakers they would let they would they were they would allow themselves to be walked over in conversation but at the same time you had this stereotype of women who talked too much.
I'm not saying that the same person thought of these two things at once, but
Okay.
These are these are things which were all said.
Er  said in in an article that women used empty language.
That was a phrase he used.
So what so traditional schools Thought that women did a lot of Recognized they thought that women did a lot of talking but that a lot of it wasn't really any use.
Yeah that that was just the ideas it had.
Whereas men talked more for function.
Er and then to contrast this you've got like the feminist view er well it's a just reconstruct a lot of these ideas instead of saying that women's talk was diffident they said it was more considerate, and so the idea that quite often A lot of the features that are in this conversation aren't because women want to be deferential to the men they're talking to, it's that they actually want to show some consideration to to the turn-taking or the conversational style that's going on.
Er in actual fact the speech styles aren't really comparable which is why you sort of get these contradictions.
Er you fi What the feminist the schools says that a lot of languages minimize and trivialize interests and achievements of women and denigrate them by the way in which they use language and the way in which they talk about things.
Er and similarly the syntax of languages are often said to be oppressive of women, a lot of the way that language is structured and a lot of the words that you get in a language, that's another thing that's said.
there's one quite sort of ground breaking paper that obviously there's a lot in that people don't agree with but it was quite an important paper in terms of er in terms of feminist linguistics and feminism in general.
It came out o it came out in nineteen seventy five.
And that was by a women called Robin Lakehoff and she wrote a paper called l language and woman's place.
Er the things that she said were that women used more hedges, such as I think er hedges are sort of things that get put into the conversation if al allegedly if somebody wants to give the impression that they're not quite sure, and they wouldn't w You know like I wouldn't want to say it for sure but I think that.
Er and then similarly to that they er were said to seek agreement by Lakehoff she said they used more questions and more tag questions.
She said, as you said, they s she said they used less swearing and more please and thank yous.
And also as you said, the thing with colours, they  were said to perhaps use less basic colour terms, so if some men were shown a bluey-green some men would say and some would say whereas a women allegedly would say turquoise or whatever.
Er Now a lot of things in Lakehoff's paper perhaps people have disagreed with since then such as the things about tag questions and hedges erm I mean some studies have said that if you look at the actual modality of tag questions, like we said before, the actual function of it
that isn't the case.
But still it's an important paper that sort of broke away from a lot of the traditional thinking and led towards a lot more feminist stuff.
I mean you c you can't really read wh a book on this list about women's and men, s language without finding the reference to Lakehoff in the back somewhere.
Did she actually do  research?
Er a lot
A lot of hers was intuition yeah, er
some students were given shown some s some utterances
Mhm.
and they had to say which were said by men and which were said by women, and erm most of the ones with tag questions were said by women
Right
this women says that all 
Yes I mean in a sense that just sort of shows that a lot of people would agree with Lakehoff in the sense that they think that women use a lot of tag questions and have that speech style, erm I mean like we've been able to see, and what we can say is that men and women's language is different er and it's even possible to say in what way it's different, but the difficulty becomes when we actually want to say why those differences are.
I mean some people say it diffidence some people say it's considerate so you have to then try and go a bit further beyond the actual differences to find out what the reasons behind them are.
You also find different cultures have different ways of having men and women's language.
Er some of the things which I won't go into in detail but a short list of some of the things which do differ among languages are interjections, particles, personal pronouns, titles, kinship terms, er nouns, verbs, noun multipliers, pronunciation.
Er there's a book, which I don't think is on your list but it might be called By Thorn and Henley er which might be worth looking at.
That's like full of about dozen or so papers each one I think, if it's the book I'm thinking of, is about a different community or a different language er so you might find some information about Samoa where there's a different societal hierarchical structure.
Er children aren't brought up in the same maternal way as they are in in this country, and many other countries.
Er similarly in I' think it's Japanese you find that men and women use different for certain things, er not because not because of terms of style just because they are the correct words to use if you are a man or if you are a women.
Er lots of languages have very complex kinship terms where in English they're fairly simple, er I mean someone who is one of your parents brothers is going to be an uncle, no matter what.
Whereas other communities will have father's brother and mother's brother and other ones still will then have different words depending on whether you're male or female.
Er the same things happens with nouns and verbs and other things and in Ja Japanese again I think you find that the same words are pronounced differently.
Er again I think you can find some information on that in Thorn and Henley.
Right, er another situation where there's men and women differences is in multilingual communities, er you find that men and women's attitudes to varieties or language varieties or languages can carry so some men will try and avoid using one of their languages because they see it as a low prestige variety whereas some women will use it because for them it's a high prestige variety.
Likewise you might find that switching and mixing will change according to status of the languages.
Er there's another book which is similar to the other one in the sense that it made up of some papers by Phillips, Steel and Tants and that has some information about Mexicano in it, er and you find that some people er were giving Mexican language a low  a low prestige rate whereas other group in the community were doing the opposite and giving a high prestige rate or certainly a less low one, er in favour of spanish a lot of the Because it was in I think it's in South America I guess, er you find that a lot of the locals were switching to spanish because it was coming the dominant language er because of societal pressures and constraints and so on.
Er but a part of the community were trying to keep Mexicano and there's men and women differences in that.
There's a  Caribbean island and apparently they just because The men their sort of ancestors invaded the island,all the men and you know they 
Mhm.
And then they kept their language  kept the language.
Right.
Okay did anybody get a chance to read the paper which was about  conversation?
I just wondered  what what that came up with as it's conclusion.
W well it might be worth having a read of that.
Er okay what else?
Has anybody got any that I haven't haven't really covered yet?
Mhm.
and how erm  but it probably got a little to do with the way groups actually organize.
Whereas the boys are more  but the tend to give more .
Right.
But the girls tend  more equal responsibility and not .
What differences do you f I mean have you got any specific examples there or?
No   Er the girls sort of say things like  perhaps ask her, Do you have any  We could get on a bit more so they don't include themselves in what they're going to do.
Whereas the boys  Give me the pie  Get off my steps or something
Mm.
Right.
Is there something  about where one girl was using what would be boys language when 
Yeah.
someone else came round to her house she was like you know get off my yard  
Yeah,Yeah, so girls are perfectly capable of using those  when need be 
Yeah, I mean I The important thing is I think the children do recognize the differences, not that they don't notice the differences, because they're Like you say they're capable of using the other if it if it suits them.
Er I mean that goes back again to the articles which you might have about the way that parents talk to their children, and you quite often find that then very very quickly the children grow up speaking in a same way as the parent of that sex talked to the them.
So if a child gets spoken to in a fairly direct way by imagine a female child by her father and the same female child gets spoken to in a not so direct way be her mother, then even of this The child is likely to  both version, she'll grow up using female variety because she's she can affiliate herself with her mother and I mean she knows that is  the variety she's expected to use.
I think  can't really remember I don't know  how father would use different language he's talking to his son or daughter.
Yeah that's true as well.
Er it sort of goes in four ways I mean the fathers talk more directly than the mothers whether or not it's a boy or a girl they're talking to.
But they do talk more directly to boys than girls, so it's sort of graded in that way.
Okay who wanted to talk briefly about what people are going to write about?
Cos we haven't really sort of said anything.
Has anyone got any I mean I you don't all need to write about the same thing or anything.
Er does everyone want to do a general essay or do people want to do a s a specific thing?
General essays can turn into just regurgitating from the .
Okay so is there anything you've read that you all would want to concentrate on?
Erm Well not that I've come across yet  I'd rather do something that's  getting the facts and then giving examples.
Mhm.
I want top do something on what what you noticed about  and what you've got  
Right.
Right.
Er let me think.
I'll just go and find out when the due date for this essay is, and then Cos if it is the end of week three then I'll I'll say o I'll say it can be in in week four sometime.
But if it's due in when the project originally was which was week five, then that 
gives you a bit more time to decide exactly what you want to talk about cos if  if it has go to be in week three or week four, then we really sort of like decide now what you're going to write about so that n Cos next week is gonna be our last meeting on this topic, so you really want to sort of give a bit of a presentation on what you're going to say.
Yeah I want everyone to do like five or ten minutes next week on what they're gonna write.
Okay I 'll just go and find out.
What are they supposed to be doing by the way?
What happens to the like project?
It got cancelled .
Cancelled 
It got cancelled?
Oh right, didn't hear that then.
There  Oh that's why we're not doing it any more, so what do we have to do instead of having to do an essay ?
Just an essay.
Oh, they decided not to give us quite so much work?
Mm.
Oh right.
So we Is that why the  
Is that what we're meant to be doing this term,tutorials?
Think so I don't  
When do our tutorials stop?
I'm really confused.
We've got two more tutorials?
What Oh yeah, week three and week four, and 
Yeah.
I'm so confused about what's going on.
I think I must be not looking at the list or not reading half the stuff.
The first  Who put  dictation and and I was going, What?
Where did it say that?
I shan't find the le You know the letter we got sent in the holidays?
Yeah.
Well mine got sent home and I wasn't there I was here.
Oh that's ridiculous Sarah, yeah 
So
So I don't know.
I I mean I've got I've read it once and and now I've lost it 
and it might even still be at home but I don't know where it is, I can't find.
So I can't remember what it said in it.
Ooh I don't know.
my supervisor doesn't know anything about writing an outline .
Yeah has that got to be in tomorrow?
Yeah.
Got to do a marathon tomorrow.
Why?
Cos he's a runner.
Oh excellent,?
put the history of phonetics
Yeah.
so  little blue brochure and
This is the  study of papers written in the fifteenth century or something
History of phonetics?
I'm sorry if you're interested in this then go for it.
You need a 
What're you doing for yours then ?
I'm I'm I'm a bit confused.
Your doing what?
Historical linguistics?
Your mad!
What is it though, what's historical linguistics?
Is it like what we do in Old English or not?
Cos that 
Yeah it is.
That sounds excellent.
Right it's due in week three I think.
Hurray.
Er but  as far as I'm concerned if it comes in in week four, that's fair enough, but things after that then they start to get a bit upset 
But I sa I said to Chris, When is it?
She said, Week three.
Er and I said, Give or take a few days, and she said, Yeah.
So if it's inside week four then that will quite reasonable, does that sound okay?
Okay has anyone had a think about what they want to do?
I mean does anybody else know?
sort of everything we've had so far's been pretty general.
Okay if any of you wanted to you could always go out some tape recorder  and people have a listen to it.
But obviously if you're going to do that you'll have to do it during next week some time  On the other hand I could give you a list of five topics and you could choose one.
Yeah Oh yeah I mean there's five five things five things in men or women's conversation t to do and essay about.
Say one about interrupting, one about topics, and one about perhaps interaction with children, one about er  what    Or you could even I mean if I did er I did a list of that you could even do the same one, you wouldn't have to do one each.
You know you got your erm tag questions?
Yeah.
might not be one of the question in it as  tag questions could be
Oh yeah.
specific.
Okay er  There's one title I've got written down here which I don't know if anyone's interested in.
Evaluate the claim that women are more d ob Evaluate the claim that women are more observant of the prestige norms in their speech than men are.
Does anyone fancy that?
Let's If I write down   Okay the  which I've just suddenly thought of were er
turn-taking and interruptions and overlap and tags and tag questions, topic selection and interaction with children, which I think I just mentioned make sure you've got them down so we can forget them.
Er
What?
What?
What have I done?
Oh you weren't supposed to be able to read it.
No, we can read it but it's  
It's just happened a lot this week.
Er so yeah, you want to do some questioney tag things?
Yeah.
Okay, I mean just ignore that one, forget I wrote it.
I mean on something like interruptions there's only so much you can say.
Er
yeah, which is why may be general one might be more useful dependi it depends how much
Whereas if you do  interaction of children you can do it here,
Mhm.
Oh yeah I mean if you wanted to also link that with multicultural situation or or cross cultural or comparing it with other ones I mean that's no problem.
language of the  different to 
Okay.
certain dialectic language.
Yeah well if you want to that then that's fine as well, I mean that  Tell you what, the best thing then is can everyone put a note in my pigeon hole by Monday in other words, you've got the weekend to decide for definite.
Gives us just like a provisional title of what the essay will be, on what your essay will be.
Is that alright, cos then you've gone away with any ideas you've got from now which is probably none, er and then it also means that I don't have to spend next week worrying in case we get to Friday and Thursday and you're still not sure what you're doing.
Is that alright?
Okay if you just sort of like think of a vague title which sums up what the things are which you want to cover in the essay and if you get it to me by Monday then that that'll be quite good.
You know about  questions, is it questions like sort of
Well tag questions and er and questions in their own rights which i I supposed seeking agreement is the idea.
Or with anything which is vaguely connected with that I mean that just sort of a coverall term for it.
excuse me.
Okay so does everyone, think they'll gonna be able to think of something over the weekend?
Okay and then if next week somet If next week everyone can have Okay w I think what you need to do f for next Thursday is For Monday to give me  what you're going to do and then between Monday and Thursday, try and read anything you can about that topic.
I mean you could forget this list that I gave th b that gave you, unless there's anything on it that is still relevant, but find the things yourself on that topic so that on Thursday Next Thursday you can each spend ten minutes talking about things which you've read in your topic specifically.
And if anyone chooses the same topic as somebody else then you can do it together or not together or which ever.
but if that can be a general idea for next week.
Okay .
Is everyone okay about that?
book
Er
where you where you
Which one?
On on your  chapter six and nine, do you know what chapter nine ?
Er.
Not off the top of my head, I can't remember.
Was that was that  theory?
Was it that?
I can't remember what the  off the top of my head, no.
chapter six is,.
Right, er
as questions lead to  shouting and then crawling back to his   Then a little bit about language and an experiment that they did .
Right, sounds like there's a bit on topics in there so it might be worth having a look at anyway.

Hello?
Right thank you.
Well Gerald, what can I do for you today sir?
Well  not too bad.
You know, a wee bit of numbness in my hand you know .
Still still having
Er I need the tablets for er  an awful lot of boils you know .
Are you?
Aye.
Right.
You know how I take Tetracycline quite regularly 
Mhm.
you know and I 
Aye.
And I knew I was coming up you know.
Well that's  be some I'm gonna give you a slight change till we get your skin clear and then we'll we'll get you back on your  after that Gerry.
Aye.
I'm due I'm meant to go to a diabetic clinic again, you know in Strathclyde you know.
Right.
.
.
ninety five.
My line'll be due now Doc, can you give me another line please.
.
I was just You know I used to always maybe take one and if I got bad I took maybe two a day you know.
Aye.
Doc.
Use these other ones.
Mhm.
Give give this the Tetracycline a wee rest.
Yeah.
And then we'll get you back onto them after five or six days, Gerald.
That'll give your skin a good chance.
some of that Dr .
.
.
how long  far away.
There's way that I'm gonna trust them for another five or six weeks yet.
I know I know  what they like.
They'll all go their Summer holidays.
Any time.
Yeah.
That's true.
There we go Gerald, that'll keep you right.
Right 
Dr .
now.
Cheerio now.

Now what shall I do with you this morning?
She had her blood test a few weeks ago.
Ooh that's right yes, cos we got We 
Trosser wasn't working and we're going to do some Terbinefeine and provided the blood tests were okay.
I remember.
make sure we're all behaving ourselves and there's no evidence of anaemia, infection, vitamin deficiency, inflammation, anything else.
And you've got perfect liver function tests which is what we thought you'd have all  So the thing to do is to now get you on Terbinefeine Yeah?
Yeah.
Okay?
Mhm.
For your grotty nails.
Now you're f fourteen give or take a week or two aren't you?
Mm.
Mhm.
So what we need to do is to check the dose.
Two one six.
This is getting to be quite widely used nowadays, especially from the skin specialists,.
and we're getting er more  Now then we need to work out what the dose is.  that's the wrong one.
that's the cream, don't want to look at that.
One a day for two to six weeks in the feet, two to four weeks in the body.
Three months in fungal nail infe Now which bit is it 
I can't It's the nails isn't it?
It's nails.
Mm.
Nails,So six weeks to three months in fungal nail infections.
So probably the sensible thing to do is to give you six weeks worth er one a day,si twenty eight,y g give you eight weeks worth and then see how you are at the end of two months continuous treatment.
Okay.
See what happens.
Now one of the problems of course is nails grow very slowly, and you can't clear the nail  until the nail  has actually grown out fully.
Ah so we will see See  at the end of three months treatment they'll s They won't look enormously different.
But then they should carry on getting better on their own.
Ooh good.
So if I give you fifty six and then we'll see.
Now obviously if you get problems on them, tummy ache, headaches, muscle aching, rashes, anything odd, let us know straight away cos this still a relatively new drug and we've got to report all problems on relatively new drugs.
Relatively new drugs are st are are new as far as that were concern for up to three years, which is a real menace.
We send yellow cards on all sorts of Ter-bin-a-fiene It's on a day, I'll give you fifty six.
So we'll se how you are.
If it looks like there's been very little response then we'll probably keep you going for yet another month after that.
Mm.
Er provided everything's okay.
But we don't need to do any blood tests if you're fine, you'll be delighted to hear, having checked in the first place .
Any questions?
No.
No?
Okay.
you're not on any pills and tablets are you?
Good.
Well she's supposed to take Melkrom but she doesn't take them.
Taking?
Melkrom.
She has this  allergy to cow's milk and what have you.
She's supposed to take that when she's
Ooh, what's Melkrom 
Capsules that she had for years .
Mm.
But she doesn't take them any But
It's probably an o One of these old fashioned trade names.
Oh.
So let's have a look .
She's supposed to take them half an hour before she has any to eat.
Oh there's a lot of funny trade names that Oh it's here, no Yes it is Melkrom two oh eight.
Let's have a look what Melkrom really is.
What by mouth?
Ooh.
For the last ten years you shouldn't have been taking it.
No, it's Serumchromoglycate with it What it What's it Now we know We  know all about that cos we a lot of it in aspirin and problems with noses and things like that, but er I wasn't aware that it was actually used by mouth for this.
Well, yeah.
But if you're not taking it and you're okay you probably don't need it.
But I'd say 
I mean if you are taking it it won't interfere with it.
That's the important 
That's alright yeah.
thing.
Oh well I've learned something there .
Er you were going to make some enquiries about erm Oh er T B er B C G.
Yes I have spoken to Mrs  who is the er er the woman involved and what she has said is this, the We can't directly we can't directly get hold of it, they won't send it out into the community.
But if we 
Mm.
if I if I let her know who're the people I who are the people involved who  had it.
And what school they are at, they will do everything to everything required through the school health service.
The lot.
Well that's fine for Elizabeth but Catherine's sort of half left school, if she hasn't she's waiting for her G C S Es and she's not sure whether she's got to go back or what she's doing.
Ah.
Right, well in that case I'll get that to Mrs  then in that on on her.
Well I can let you know more at the end of week actually, what she's doing,
Okay well that'd that'll be better.
I mean  cos we moved 
That'll be better 
half way through do we haven't got a clue what the poor girl's doing at the moment.
Oh right, so let me know at the end of the week.
So it's Elizabeth and Cath Is Catherine with a K or a C 
C 
Catherine with a K.
They're both at All Saints at present but whether she goes back or not is
All Saints in  Catholic ,
yeah.
All Saints R C comprehensive.
I keep hearing good reports about that.
It's a very good school.
school 
Mm.
Er so if you let me know about Catherine.
Er now unfortunately I'm away next week, so if if the message doesn't get to me before I've gone, it'll be the week after that I then get back to Mrs .
Mm.
In fact it's going to be done through a school anyway, it's not  desperately relevant  
No cos it wer No it's just the fact she wants to go to a veterinary nurse you see, I wanted t them Don't want her be in contact with too many animals in case they have s don't wanna get .
Wel , yes I mean T B in animals is actually very very rare, cos of course all the cow 
the cows are tested anyway.
Mm.
And the cow testing programme in I think is still very very thorough.
Er human testing and immunizations is still going gone in this are and I hope it won't ever stop.
They've got no intention of stopping it at 
Mm.
the health authority.
And I sit on the immunization su subcommittee anyway, so they better not dare.
They won't they won't dare.
But I'll I'll make enquiries, and if it looks like she has gone out I will have to get in and we I'm sure we can twist an arm.
I'm in the right place to twist an arm.
That's the important thing .
But we can certainly get er you done Elizabeth at  School.
But if you get 
back to me about Catherine and we'll sort things out .
Yes okay, we'll 
Is that okay?
Yes.
And I will put B C G.
And that'll remind me .
slip through the net so far but they've got to be done.
Yes, you'll get 
done, don't worry.
You'll 
Right.
get done.
No escape.
Right thanks very much.
Okay.

Well did you enjoy your holiday?
Good,
Aha.
good, how you keeping?
Fine.
Except I'm awful awful tired all of the time.
Tired?
as that.
Now.
That's the only  I came up to tell you.
Mhm.
I'm not on tablets for
Mm.
Mhm.
Er
I've been finding that normally I can get up early in the morning, give Heather a ring or if she's staying with me give her a shout, you know for her work.
Aha.
And that's me up for the day.
And I'm sitting dozing, falling as asleep all the time.
Oh right.
I get up with 
What.
the intention of, the day's over before 
Aye, what what's what's your er what's your sleeping like, is that quite good or is it broken?
No, well mostly  toilet in the middle of the night but I go straight back to bed and go back to sleep again.
No problem getting to sleep again,
No.
no.
Come in.
Come on.
work to do.
Hiya.
I'm  .
I could be seeing .
We'll we'll give your Gran some nice medicine?
Will we?
Mm.
S Will we, right.
Here Gran.
Can you give that to your mum?
Leave that Lindsey .
Lindsey bring it over please.
Can you give that to your mum Lindsey?
That's a girl.
Right leave that with  .
That's a girl .
Come on, come on, say
What's that?
And you had a good holiday did you?
Yes, I got the flu in  right enough.
I think it was going to the extreme heat and damp down in , you know whether it was cold in .
Was it?
Mm, we went back to the heat in , and the last week it rained every single day .
Now they're back to the good weather again.
They knew you were coming home.
Must have done.
Well let's get you back on your feet again .
Look at me.
Turn you into a human being.
Oh Lindsey's away, oh yes she's back again.
Can you give this to your Gran?
What have I got there Doctor?
Can you give that to your Gran, let me see you.
Ah that's a good girl.
Right, it's your , your Lorazepam 
Mhm.
and I've given you a good old fashioned tonic to get your strength all up again.
I've got a 
To get you,to get you ready for looking after
Yes, aye, okay.
If I want to poison you 
Mammy.
young  I'll know what to
No, but you know when you say like 
Mammy.
to take cough  and things like, and I nearly died the other night, I'd taken one and I'd taken some of this cough ,
Aye.
and then that chap that used to come a bit, he says not to take er what is that thing that you use?
To use it on food, condiment stuff.
Mhm, that's right .
What's that?
And I was sitting eating mussels with vinegar in them .
What's that?
and all of a sudden I developed  she'd be on the phone going, I've just eaten mussels with vinegar in them .
What's that?
No no.
They're quite safe.
on the phone, Well I don't feel well.
So I'll be back up to see you 
What's hat?
next month, on the twelfth of May, because that's when my next line's due.
Right, okay.
Okay?
Well that'll that'll get things things boosted up for you again and
we'll have you back
Thanks a lot.
Okay.
Right, say bye bye,
Right, bye bye,
Bye.
will you come back another day?
Aye.
Right,
Aye.
okay, whatever you say.
Alright.
Yes, that's better.
Thanks Doctor.
Cheerio.
Alright, cheerio now.
See you Doctor.
Cheerio.

Mr  in there, actually last time  he was in a while.
Oh right, whatever you say, whatever you say .
Just that patient's 
Hello, well Mr , well what can we do for you today young lad?
I need a a few more tablets of the yellow ones, the .
Oh right, right.
And erm some for my work, you know I have that herpes in my lap, it's breaking out again.
Is it breaking again?
It's er it never was away, I'm it's a good indicator as to when, how much pressure I can take  .
Mhm.
Er  Was it Zovirax you were taking, wasn't it?
No, you gave me something  
The other one?
or something,
Yes, that's right.
But you can only use it up for a month and then you  .
Yes, oh aye, aye, just use it for the month Charlie and then, and then in the bucket, don't keep using it after that.
Aha.
It's not safe.
Cos you just told me to use a wee bit of it.
Yes, oh aye, you just need a wee drop of it, you don't need a lot.
Put it on every day,, is that right for you?
Are your other tablets,
Oh they're okay erm just one thing, erm I went to the dentist up  over there in  Street, and he made a mess of filling two teeth.
Mhm.
and I reckon he broke them but he says he's no broken but I I I felt the tooth in two side of my mouth so I just stopped the treatment there and I'm going to another dentist some time but my wife, I don't want to go there now cos money's tight, I was on the D H S S, I was due to pay the first forty nine pound.
Mhm.
I paid forty pound ninety five, right?
And I finished my treatment with him.
If I go to another dentist do you think it's worth my while writing to D H S S, saying I've paid forty five, forty pound ninety five pence, at that dentist and can I transfer the treatment to this other dentist
Mhm.
and only pay him further eight pound or whatever .
Whatever, yeah.
Do you think that might be worth my while doing that ?
Yes, I think so.
Because erm 
It's a lot of money.
Aha.
So I  
When I went first he took one out there and he took it out clean, but this one here, in actual fact he gave me a stitch, and when the stitch wasn't in you could see the tooth protruding a bit.
Oh right.
And erm but when he took the stitch it's covered it up.
Right.
And my teeth are in bad, all my teeth are badly in need of repair.
But
Don't rush at it.
I just wish it was all over, like now I had to last out until the thirty first of March, which I did do.
Mhm.
You did.
But then again, when I was a a small boy  the university professors that were interested in me told my father I'd do what I would have to do in my mid-forties.
I'm forty, nearly forty five in January.
Mhm.
My father had a  and he said it would be forty seven,say it would likely be forty seven, but that's forty seven is two year eight month away, which is a long time for me to keep it going.
Also 
No.
also some of the things that I've been going on with, doing this one  with three, and I don't know if it, they'll stay in the can long enough for that.
You know what I mean, so  what, but again some come through with it.
My father had another , everything was okay if you came out at any time after the thirty first of March, look all I'm doing now is I was giving back, er taking my position as the company director, getting a salary off the rent in my farms and small holdings and my shares in shipping.
But now I'm just deciding I'll live off invalidity benefit for a wee while longer, leaving that in the hands of my my managing director and somebody else  and the money that's coming through from the Queen and whatever I'm just gonna live on invalidity benefit, I'm only drawing invalidity benefit, I'm not gonna get any more money than invalidity benefit.
Okay.
Let this accrue up or whatever.
You know Dr , when I was a young man  this billionaire had his had his daughter and son kidnapped and held in a barn on his farm and they wanted twenty million pound ransom for them.
So I was close by and so they sent me in so the way I , I got dressed up in the minister's cassock, and I got in  revised the books of  Genesis,like through and I get genned up to be a minister and I took in a bible and er well anyway I killed five men and they got out alive.
But when I was seeing him he offered to write me a check for five million pound, I said, I couldn't take a check for five million pound because I was a  to me.
If ever you're needing a million or anything like that, write to me and I'll give you it.
So with this going on we found our company would get on better if I had collateral so I wrote to this boy and asked him for a million and put it in a trust fund that I would get after his death, and we  that way so okay.
Right?
So I came back er with a trust fund so what I'd done, Golf Course were having troubles, right, Golf Course.
And one  was going to but it off them for two hundred and fifty thousand so my mate said, You make the offer at two hundred and fifty and you'll help me, so I says, I'm getting it for two hundred if I say,an eighteen hole golf course, and I'll sell it back to them when they can afford to buy it back off me, right?
Mhm.
We're using that  trust fund as collateral for a loan of two hundred thousand to buy the Golf Course and  the golf course to make it profit profitable, and so the bank are now in the process of now selling it back to them, what they're offering,
Excuse me a wee second, Charlie.
Hello.
so Right, okay.
One firm offered them forty five, four hundred and fifty thousand pounds, I said I wanted three hundred thousand, cos I done a lot of repair, a lot of renovating, and I made the bar open and I made my money through selling drink and getting in entertainment.
The best place to go like to go for a wee dance, the only place you could go for a wee da , that's the .
We started making a profit.
Mhm.
But erm, I woul what, erm, I also, the  Hotel, we bought that the same way, they were selling that back and making quite a fair bit of profit, investing the money in arable land.
Mhm.
Cos arable land pays for itself, it's all taken care of.
So  all I'm saying is I just want, I want to finish  but again  you're in danger  cos I just carry on  you see that's  down there.
Somebody broke into my house, I reckon  I recognize  person.
Maybe I mentioned about the fillings coming out on this side of my mouth and at the back, so I ca They took it out in my living room and hypnotized me to forget, hypnotized  walking about in my sleep with it,to sleep, got me in the chair and done it, got out of the house, programmed me to go to that dentist in , which I did do instead of going to Mr  at .
He broke two of my teeth extracting them but he says they're out clean, when I told him to take another X-ray of it.
He only took the one but he didn't take two.
So  but he thinks I've got away with it but the pus in my mouth right now
Aye.
and they can look at this anytime.
I must get my other teeth attended to and the cream can deal with .
I I remember I knocked out a man's teeth in front of witnesses, just by using my mi my fist like that, hitting their tooth with a karate pass and brought the tooth out cleanly.
One of these  away at the back used to what it would be like to have teeth.
But I'm  the rest of the cream.
Mhm.
I'm under orders.
Don't don't do anything.
I mean I've even though about if I  if I tell you this and you think that's it's going to put you you  just even if you pass it on to somebody what I'm telling you pass it on, but just  and I'll try and get the dental treatment where I can get the dental treatment.
Say no more.
Say no more.
I'm just  can you put me down for some paracetamols for the pain  
I've got pain in my in my my jaw.
Right.
Right.
thing I told you about lady in red, remember that, a million and a quarter,
Mhm.
the Queen,Alexander , Sir Alexander , me, and and the piano player.
Aha.
I I forget his name, but it's all coming back,little children in  well that's not bad isn't it,.
Not bad, not bad at all.
See s see  how could I forget my life, how could I forget  these things I'm telling you.
time I forget but .
Right, okay, I'll see you again young man.
Thank you  .
Right okay , right now, look after yourself.
I'm either telling the truth or , and I think I'm telling the truth.
Look after yourself, right cheerio now.

Hello.
Well young scallywag, what can I do for you today?
Well, I was at the hospital a month ago and my blood pressure's up a wee bit.
So I said that I'd start .
Oh .
Oh.
Right, before I got somebody to check.
But er what I was wondering , I've got to  water.
You know, I'm not  my water .
He said that it was all quite normal really and  
Aye ,.
Just I've run to the toilet.
But I don't know whether it's cold with it during the winter or not I know but
Let's check.
started doing a bit of training  maybe, and I've started cutting down eating.
Okay yeah.
And I think I'm overdoing, I tell you what I think .
I was lying on my back, I was working my legs up and down a lot,
Well 
and I don't know whether I've  stretched a wee bit in here..
Putting the pressure on.
Well this is it.
And I know I, one, it, because I felt it one day.
Right.
See what this tells us.
See if you've been a bad boy.
And down you come .
Ah, doing alright.
fright the white coats must have frightened the life out of you some.
Aye , you'd  past couple of  see me in , I said it doesn't seem .
I  wee bit here and I don't know what it is.
They're always
It was, it was a hundred and sixty over ninety or something, er I, what was it now?
What's it?
Hundred and s hundred and sixty over seventy five.
But I know that's what it was you know because the wee lassie done it with this special electronic thing
That's right.
and er .
Cos I'd lost about half a stone in weight, and I was cut down on chocolate biscuits, and I, what I'd been doing I was   was at my tea,at five o'clock, I was eating another  at ten o'clock, I reckon I was overdoing it a bit you know with the  I was trying to cut down a lot 
Yeah.
Aye.
I would
and I'd lost half a stone in weight.
I would think your, your best bet Robert is just  try and keep your weight steady.
And don't go hard at the training.
I mean your weight, and your pressure there is  is er
Have you got the report back from the hospital a couple 
Aye.
Aye 
of weeks ago aye??
Twenty fifth yeah twenty fifth of March.
Aye, that's right.
almost a year.
Hundred and sixty.
Hundred and sixt 
It's alright today?
Aye.
Great today.
Is it?
No problem.
That was all that was worrying me.
You know I'm saying, maybe there's a wee bit of strain in here.
And now see 
Aye that's probably .
I'm on my feet?
I'm alright when I'm in that position, right?
Aye.
I do but see if I'm sitting down
That's right.
see them guys in the corner, see me sitting in this position?
Sitting  
Now I don't know whether it's a wee bit of
Extra weight.
Is that what it is?
You get caught between a weight pushing down, and the seat, the pressure on the seat.
Cos I'm alright when I'm on my feet, I'm hardly bothered having to go for  
Yeah.
Aye.
It's just this is  I remember on my back, cos I was lifting up you know lifting my legs up.
Aye.
And one of these I felt .
I don't know er .
Yeah, I would think
That was all what was .
I would think so Robert.
But all your blood tests
But he's that Doctor , he says,er just show him that wee tracer, and he'll  know, but 
Aye.
Aye.
he says all the blood and everything all was all 
Every everything's cleared away.
everything's cleared away.
one every four weeks, just for the 
S see you every four weeks for the next couple of months,When are you 
due back to see them?
No, it's er by the way, instead of every year now it's, I've to make it two years.
Every two years?
So I've not to go back 
Oh well.
till two years now.
E every month for about round 
Well, he's  just to keep a record of it right.
I'll just get an appointment just for my blood 
check.
that checked anyway.
Is it near enough normal that is?
Yes.
One sixty over seventy five.
Is it?
They don't come better than that.
Oh that's a re that's my, maybe that'll make my put my mind at rest a wee bit.
Aye.
No, I mean that er
Doing my, my job I notice it  you know  I'm in this a little bit of pressure on the .
Oh aye.
Aye.
back on the tills again.
It's safer.
I'm not joking.
Safer away from it .
You're safer away from it.
see when
I'll
was it last Friday?last Friday.
Cos he's enjoying himself.
Eh?
You get 
a bit of ,
Yes.
you know.
One boy shouted  the doctor, you know?.
And they still support the Airdrie .
Oh dear, aye, he took a terrible
So is this running to the toilet with my water just
Aye, that'll gradually disappear.
I always feel it, it's a lot worse in the winter.
Aye.
I mean I don't know,
Och yes.
That's right.
I mean .
and that's it  the head, and I could feel the chill .
You'll need to get one of these wee hats.
I know..
Bill  Bill  's got a spare one.
Right, thanks a lot.
Right, pal, right.
Okay sir, cheerio now.

I I'm still having trouble with this leg.
It aches and er at nighttime I can't I can't rest with it.
Right.
Do you find it's just at night or is it in the day too?
Er w more at night you know.
Right.
Does it make you want Is it the sort of ache that makes you want to wriggle it around?
Yeah.
I'm kicking it all the while.
Yeah.
If I lie on settee I've always got this leg hanging, because I 
Right.
can't stand it up.
And it's same er when I get in bed,
Yeah.
I always get in bed on me left me right 
and then I like to turn over to me right.
Yeah.
But I found out that me back's been hurting me since I come up before, me back 
Mm.
been playing up a bit.
So I had to get out of bed and turn over.
But I still i can't lie on it, I still have to go back cos of that leg you see ?
Okay.
Now we tried a bit of W a We actually gave you a  worth of something last time ,
Yeah.
did that help ?
Mm.
Well not really, it 
Right.
er you know.
I mean I don't I try to not to take a lot of notice of it you 
Good.
know.
Okay, can you just slip your shoe and sock off,
Yeah.
And I can have another look, check your circulation.
I'm always cold.
An but me feet are warm now.
But I'm always cold.
When did we last check your thyroid?
Er was it was it Ma er
Have we done one this year?
I I 
I had it I've had it May.
I had I had three checks, thyroid 
Good.
me er water and er Was it me general?
Yeah.
I'll I'll just check that .
Yeah.
They all came through right I think.
Oh that's okay then.
I mean me hands is ever 
Yeah.
so cold.
Yeah.
That that may be 
My hands are stone cold.
That may just be Cos you've got good circulation, in fact, down here.
Even if you feel cold, it's not bad, not at all.
Okay.
Can you wiggle your b ankle backwards and forwards, that's okay.
Doe sit ache much now?
No no, not at the moment, no .
No okay.
I think when I'm knocking  
And you haven't really got veins?
Have varicose veins  okay .
No  
Okay, and your knee e 
Yeah, all me knees ache sometimes.
I'm told I'd got arthritis in there, but that's years ago.
Okay.
Well I'm sure this er I think it's certainly nothing serious, it 
Oh that's what You see I'm alright, but I thought oh I better come up because I've got to come up
Yes.
next month about that cream that I use .
Yeah.
It's called This is called restless leg syndrome.
Oh is it?
I was 
Yeah.
And it's a menace.
It 
And it 
really is a menace.
Yeah.
Because although it's not serious, there really is no brilliant treatment for it .
and it comes and goes,
Yeah, well
And and it really does make you want Oh it 
Yeah.
Nasty thing.
But I thought well, While I I'll ma kill two birds with one stone, and I'll er come 
Yeah.
up and see him.
And you told me to come September for about the cream.
That's right yeah.
But I though it's 
there.
it's nearly here now isn't it ?
That's r 
So I thought if I er But I was beginning to get a bit worried so I thought well I might as well go up because I shall start to worry and things get out of proportion with me you see?
Yeah.
so.
Who's the artist, is its are the children ?
That's my daughter mainly.
Mainly Rebecca 
Yeah.
Not all of the two have been done by 
Mm.
Mostly Rebecca.
Right now.
You're on various bits and bobs, and you're also on the cream.
Yeah.
If we're going to try anything else for this restless leg,
Mm.
it may be worth trying quinine which is widely used for night cramps.
Mm.
And sometimes that does help.
Mm.
We don't why it works, but it certainly does.
And it's worth a go.
A 
Mm.
trial of quinine and that may well help.
Just a What is it?
Yeah, it's one a night.
One a night.
Yeah.
Well I take me Samamigram you know at night.
That's fine, they don't interfere with each other.
Oh,
At all.
want to
No no no no no no no no no.
As I should do.
Now you wouldn't do that but it may that may be worth a go.
Okay.
Mm.
Yeah.
Now what about the cream, how are things going on with that, cos you've been 
Well 
on it for a little while now.
er a year.
Yeah.
I's a year since  Well I was  a lot better since 
Yes.
Twice a week?
Yes.
Yeah, no discharge, bleeding, anything like that?
No.
Only I came up before you know, when 
Yeah.
er about with me husband, you know.
Aha.
And it was just But I don't er I don't seem as though er it was er sometimes I saw I saw a spot of blood, but it 
Yeah.
not not like the deep red blood, you know what I mean ?
That's right, yeah.
And I came er I came up before, can't you remember 
Yeah.
I come up and 
That's right.
er er that's the only time.
I don't have 
Right 
any bleeding in between 
good ,
nothing
good,
you know.
god.
But the first time I did use it I thought me inside were on fire.
Oh yes, it often irritates in the same way when you first start to drink spirits you feel 
Oh dear,
Yeah.
I  whatever am I going 
Yeah.
to do and I rung my daughter next morning ,
But it goes As you notice  it goes off   
It went and it sent to sooth
That's right.
Yeah.
My inside and 
It does.
It really soothed it.
Yeah, it makes a big difference, yeah .
Yes.
Yeah.
Right well I'm glad you're okay on that.
Now you've had er a hysterectomy, ooh a long time ago  that's right .
Fif fifteen I were fifty one.
It's 
Yeah.
fifteen years, and I had a Promatch 
Yeah.
repair when I were forty five.
And 
Yeah.
I'm sixty six, so that's twenty one years and fifteen 
Yeah.
isn't it?
Yeah.
That's right yeah .
Erm 
B So you can continue on that indefinitely.
Yeah.
So what We'll say trial of quinine, yeah?
Give it a go?
Yeah.
It's not addictive or anything like that is it ?
Oh no no no no no.
It's not i 
Cos I'm frightened of  
It's not a sedative or tranquillizer,
No it's just 
Quinine .
No well 
No.
I didn't  what did they use to take that for?
Malaria ,
Malaria.
yeah.
Among other things,
Yeah yeah.
Having a s 
But not at this dose, this is a low dose.
Yeah.
A low dose of quinine.
But it's worth a go.
I mean once I know what a thing is
Yeah.
that's half my battle.
Because I I stop 
Good, yeah.
worrying.
Restless legs it's called.
Ooh.
Restless legs, and it sums it up, because  they do get restless .
It's got a posh name, I can't remember what it's called now, but it has got a posh name too.
I know they all have but I mean I'd rather have the ordinary names and then 
Yeah.
Well so would I cos I remember them I can't 
And then I know 
I can't remember the posh names usually.
The same with flowers and all them plants and that.
I'd much rather have a plain name I know what they're talking about then.
Yeah.
And because I'm not very.
Yeah, we're plain folk aren't we?
Yeah.
I'm not very high up on
No.
all these posh words.
No.
So one a night.
Won't interfere with anything else, and if that's helping, so much the better.
Oh can I have some cream please?
I'm all but out of it.
Ooh  squeeze that in at the bottom there.
Yeah, can you manage?
Yeah.
It's right teeny.
Okay use twice a week.
i haven't put that on, because I haven't got room.
Yeah, well I know I know what to do with that.
Okay.
Thank you very much.
we'll give that a go.
Yes, okay .
And then we'll see how things go.
Yeah okay then
Okay.

Come in come in come in.
There you are now young man.
Hope you  cos I can't hear with that ear now.
It's .
Er the 
There we are ..
Pardon?
This one's still bad.
.
Well let's get you  away.
quite nice.
Now we're  slap this round about.
That's fine.
Er that's  just No just slightly round there .
That's it, just like that.
Beauty.
Mm.
No wonder I couldn't hear.
No wonder you couldn't hear.
Yeah, that looks okay now.
Right that'll be alright Bill.
Just get a wee look in, just check the inside.
Magic.
Magic, clean as a whistle.
Bill, there there'll be a tiny wee spot of water down at the bottom here Bill that'll maybe take today just to dissolve away.
Mm.
That's  
And now just  You remember what you used to do when you come out the baths?
Aye yes.
Do that.
Swimming yeah.
Aye.
I can hear now.
There we are.
Give yourself a dry off with this.
Right you are thank you .
Okay?
Right you are.
And j Have you any of the drops left Bill?
Yes.
Well keep them in the house, and maybe once in a while, sort of once every two months, just put a couple of drops in maybe Saturday night or Sunday night.
You know, just to keep it loose, keep it from getting clogged up again.
Right you are.
Right.
Thank you.

What's that?
That's all right it's what 
Bit scary isn't it?
Okay so has anybody had a chance to look at some of the things er
Okay so if you want to talk about  what you've got.
Was it you two who were gonna go Scott and Rebecca who were gonna do the talk.
Hang on you can 
You can
I can get  
chip in 
Chip in.
You  all the responses and things like that.
Say  I agree with that.
And I'll keep quiet and  all to myself.
Okay  go for it.
Are we still doing anything about  I've got to  I've got some inf information about .
Yeah.
First.
I've got this  Yeah yeah look  
Ah no we haven't discussed it yet.
Oh superb.
We'll discuss that after you've took a look at  
When's your interview?
Next week?
Er It's it's supposed to be due in Friday week three
But  I think sometime during week four.
Oh that's good, thank you.
Yeah.
Right so the thing is if we talk about what you've read and then  The idea is that if there's anything out of you've read that's given you an idea for an essay then you can do that.
thank you 
And if not we can think of something more specific afterwards.
But we'll go through what you've read first and then try to work something.
a definition sort of  
Says it  ready to make stereotype judgements about personality, E G you can tell he's anxious by his voice is in inverted commas or she sounds very strong minded.
And this type of stereotypical link has led to various experiments.
At the first experiment of er I think of this kind it was er  in nineteen sixty.
Who had done it already despite the English, French Canadians and how they felt about each other.
And er they felt had little prestige and that the French peop The French Canadian speakers had little prestige in their own language.
But er e English er guises were favoured more than the French ones even by the French themselves.
And er o despite that sort of  just said something about the 
procedure but we'd already done that.
So  
there wasn't really There wasn't really a great deal of er sort of stuff here but it was more about sort of language  and shifts so I had to like  shift through it and find the bits 
Right.
that were more er.
Well these sort of languages often considered to be the central pillar to group attachment and er official agencies like government an and things like historically support group language purity.
And er a although we usually associate language identity with minority groups, linked with minority groups er it's quite important that we don't erm dismiss the prominence it has in majority groups as well.
And it quotes  Quote from  nineteen eighty four.
Who says that the best predictor of future social behaviour is  is past social behaviour all things being equal and er as any assessment of linguistic of a linguistic scene will profit  from an historical awareness.
Anyway er.
Oh yeah, that's right.
It says he believed that the historical awareness will help any linguistic scene to profit.
An analysis of what people have done is likely to be useful not only in ascertaining what they're likely to do but also what their linguistic needs are.
he's just saying that  in a group if we look at the historical background of the language, it helps to see you know how What the strong points are of the linguistic and what we need  to be bolstered on.
Er if we're to understand the dynamics of language in our density and how it exists in the minds of ordinary speakers we must consider the real life record.
So he looks at Island and America.
He looks at Island er and the Irish language and in America he looks at immigrant e adaptation and the value of the historical record in each.
Erm he also states that the erosion of language does not mean the erosion of an identity.
And essentially identity revolves around the idea of political boundaries and groups.
And language and identity is not indis er indissoluble link.
So if you know language and identity need not be together cos identity is er essentially political as opposed to linguistic.
But is common that they both are together in that way.
Er Right he says on the subject of attachment of identity and language and why and why not language is maintained, he cites Harris and  and the Yiddish and  Na-dene speakers.
Vis-a-vis Hebrew.
Yiddish yiddish served as a lingua franca for   Jews.
And Na-dene did for the  Jews.
When the sates of Hebrew heightened thus becoming the language of Israel, Yiddish and Na-dene became somewhat redundant  and er in his survey of America 
In his study of Amer In his study of m the U S he found that seventy five percent of the s people who spoke Na-dene, couldn't give a reason er a proper reason for passing their language on to the er children.
Because i i they though it was in competition with other varieties around and it something t It wasn't necessarily to do with the fact that erm they though it was less it held less prestige in the  community.
It was just that erm the other varieties around were competing too heavily against it so they thought what's the point of passing it on to the children.
And er  let's think  That's it on that.
I think.
Cos there wasn't really much
Okay.
on it.
I did the Maastricht one well as which is  a bit more to do.
The Maastricht you know
Yeah tell us a bit about it cos  
Okay  this was a bit better this.
Right the situation in Maastricht up till the nineteenth century was that It was described as a di- or tri-glossic erm linguistic community.
With French and standard Dutch as competing high varieties and the dialect of Maastricht as a common variety.
Which is like the third of the tri-glossic 
What was it German and French?
No French and standard Dutch.
And Maastricht was the common variety.
And er the dialect today whenever this experiments was   which year it was but it said today.
The dialect is still very unlike Dutch itself  on levels of phonology, morphology and lexis itself.
You know it doesn't It doesn't like look too much like  the standard Dutch.
And and a funny thing is, it's not limited to social class  within Holland itself.
I it seems to be functional, so you know you get like lawyers and farmers and all sorts of people using it.
So it's a the tests it was a match-guising experiment and the tests er tested sixty four people  who were aged the ages were fifty five plus, thirty to forty five and fifteen to twenty.
They were sort of equally distributed in those ages.
And er process was er match-guising so it was You know they were list They listened to three different people  well th th they thought it was three people it was one person doing three ac the three accents  er dialects sorry.
And er it was the process was analyzed on a list of personal tracks.
And er  Oh there was one other thing .
The match-guising results were interesting because instead of the typical prestige of the standard language, and the attractiveness of a dia You know a If you did R P and say er Cockney, you'd probably get people saying that their R P was prestigious but the cockney was sort of more you know y more friendly and more attractive accent.
Er it was found that the status items were about the same for both.
So there wasn't a great difference bet The status items of things like honesty and er leadership and stuff like that.
The items weren't greatly different on scores between they had a little graph .
But st standard Dutch won on leadership but the other status items shows sort of scores that were very close to each other and they're not significantly different.
That was it .
Okay that's .
Okay what have you
Got a bit from  Erm the match-guise erm  it helps to show the stage in attitudes.
How they were  towards peoples of other languages or language varieties.
Erm you know it just says about how they carry it out about subjects assumes that er the samples.
And and judgements are made on intelligence, personality and suitability and particular occupations and although they're only limited speech samples erm many subjects  judge them.
Erm
Sorry what were the erm things that related to personality?
Intelligence and suitability and particular occupations.
And then it was saying about quantitative and qualitative measures.
Quantitative measures may allow a discovery of pattern in the situations which might otherwise merely be seen as random variation.
Not really talking about the issues, just
Yeah I mean if you're looking at quantitative things it's really you know how much actual How much variation happens whereas qualitative is  you know what the actual variations
entails
entails.
you know what the actual quality of the variations are.
Okay.
Erm.
Judging occupational suitability presumes a hierarchy and what this is must be determined erm differently for every culture being investigated.
And second one is a book by
Beardsmoor and he  sheep says about  the Canadian soc social  psychologist 
W E Lambert who was the one that  match-guise technique erm and basically he's just kind of saying about the technique that it shows corre correlations between the degree of bilingual ability and attitudinal dispositions.
Erm  and it's sort of erm features that are expressed er like  intelligent and then  intelligent er  it reveals to what extent subjects perceive speakers in a particular language as having desirable or undesirable traits  with which they may or may not wish to identify.
Erm and this technique can trigger comunic communally shared stereotyped images of a linguistic community and reveal the degree of tolerance  erm for the different erm languages.
And then the other one is the one that I got from the library by Luhmann.
Erm that's a b bit too But it's it's about  Appalachian English?
Appalachian.
Okay.
Appalachian then.
Erm
Who's this book by?
Luhmann L U H M A double N.
Appalachian English is one of the surviving non-standard regional dialects of English in the United States and it's associated with the residents of the Appalachian mountain range.
Erm it's a community isolation because is like mountains around which makes barriers against physical mobility that can't really be moved round that easily.
Erm so they just kind of stay put and so the dialects thrive because it's just such a physical It's in physical and social isolation.
Erm and then it's talking about standard variety that it's usually the standard variety that's accepted as the proper one when compared to other like smaller varieties erm dialects and stuff.
The low status dialects are associated with neg negative prestige.
Erm  Appalachian English differs from standard American English in grammar, phonology, lexicon and intonation.
Erm and then just generally language is far more than just a means of communication.
It symbolizes our social experience and locates us with social groups from which we draw our identities.
Erm and none standard language varieties are associated with those social status groups erm they acquire status evaluation, their speakers.
Erm the speakers on the samples are either bilingual or bi-dialectal and  erm  the dialects listed are in between standard American English and the eastern Kentucky sub-dialect of Appalachian English.
There's four bi-dialectal speakers two males and two females, erm who are also actors and native speakers natives of Kentucky erm  And then it g And then it goes into the the different  factors of Appalachian English.
but we don't really need to go into that do we?
No .
Erm  Oh and here's a quote.
In almost any country standards speakers and non-standard speakers view the former as more successful, intelligent, ambitious, wealthy and educated.
The status of items that were looked at er educated and uneducated, intelligent unintelligent, wealthy poor, successful unsuccessful, and ambitious and carefree.
And solidarity items were trustworthy untrustworthy, good bad, sympathetic unsympathetic, friendly unfriendly, honest dis dishonest and dependable and unreliable.
Erm they were eight speech samples
without taking a breath.
Erm and they were also asked where the where they though the speaker was from.
So the results that were got, is that the Kentucky accented speech was high in solidarity and low in status.
And the standard English was high status and low solidarity.
So the stereotype of Appalachian English speakers is that they're not very intelligent, they've got a lack of ambition and success and a poor education.
Erm and the two the two females in the solidarity evaluations they it was constant the d There wasn't any change erm across the two guises but with the males there was a significantly higher score in solidarity  when they were in the Kentucky accented guises.
Erm so the er Kentucky people were  erm not am ambitious and not educated  wasn't it?
Low intelligence, lack of ambition and success, and poor education.
That's about it.
Oh the stereotypes serve to strengthen ethnic identification and group boundaries.
In such social social settings linguistic differences become important boundary markers that require careful cultivation.
Good.
You said that some of their actual differences in speech ?
Yeah.
Erm  it's talking about glide reduction.
What does it say?
What what reduction?
Glide.
Glide?
Yeah.
Is it an eliminator?
Yeah elimination of the off glide on a word such as my which becomes ma.
Okay so 
The sound at the end of my er it would seem to have like a glide 
What's the difference between a glide and a diphthong ?
Er  I not really sure it depends on what you mean in that particular context.
I mean in som In some ways in the word my it might have part of that symbol you write with a J in it.
You know might be part of a actually a continuant rather than a vowel.
And it could be the fact that maybe that's getting reduced.
And as I say they would .
Erm
They just That was the only example they gave and said that as the word  
Well it  well it could b 
Right I mean it could be that that the th the glide from first vowel in the diphthong to the second one and that that's gone off so you're left wi with a  
No yeah  
I guess it's probably just that he glide up to the second part of the diphthong,has been displaced so you've just got the first part of it left ,
Mm.
so it's a single vowel.
Then another thing was Unstressed ing.
That erm instead of saying ng they pronounced it as just N.
In words such as building graduating and nothing it would just be an N on the end like buildin graduatin .
Erm  They dropped the final consonant in a co If there was like a consonant cluster at the end of the wor word.
So instead of saying kept they'd just say kep .
Erm     of a unstressed syllable erm like X in except, so they'd just say except.
Erm and of initial like instead of saying them they'd say just say em.
Erm  Oh yeah substitution of A for What's that with an A and a U ?
Er ow?
Ow.
Which makes Yeah which makes for  of Our and Are.
Substitution of  I for  E so instead of forget you know  I for  E So instead of saying forget you'd say forgit .
And
rising pitch in declarative sentences.
That's all.
Right, okay.
Have you got anything  
Yeah  
go back to Alcuin bar 
Do do you still do this  title an all?
Erm I think so.
What are we going to do?
What's the 
Right.
subtitle gonna be?
Well there's three, there's three different ways of going about it I guess you could do.
A whirlwind just come through the
Oh god!
When you left the door open the wind just blew 
Said it in  
it in.
Right.
Erm  
three ways to do an insect.
We should return to that book  
Oh right.
Sorry?
Na don't worry.
I did the one from the book list that was erm Giles and Howard.
Aha
No I didn't.
I did Which one did I do Yes I did.
You did.
Giles.
Well  Erm he's talking erm language convergence like erm shifting your sides  match.
as people are like.
Erm convergence erm they describe as  Individuals shift their speech styles to become more alike that of those with whom they are interacting.
And the adaptations they make are made on several different levels erm they might become more alike in their language, in their pronunciation, their rate of speech, their pause or  utterance length and their vocal intensities .?
Mm.
Nothing.
And erm also in what they're saying the intimacy of their self-dissuasions.
What they actually say themselves I suppose.
Erm and it's talking about this er accommodation theory Giles' accommodation theory which has one main assumption erm that all the things I've just mentioned about pronunciation and speech rates and things, erm they all occur in in order to encourage more interaction between the two speakers.
Erm so in assuming that that in these sort of situations, the speaker and the listener erm quote  Share a set of interpreted procedures which allow speakers intention to be encoded by the speaker and correctly interpreted by the listener .
Erm then it talks about similarity attraction processes erm and there's theory Similarity attraction process theory proposes that quote,The more similar our attitudes and beliefs are  with others the more likely it is we'll be attracted to them .
Erm and speech convergence is one of the many methods of becoming more similar to another person, so that you erm get rid of your linguistic differences.
Erm
So was that the convergence theory ?
That was Convergence was when you shift your speech style to become more like somebody else.
And erm similarity attraction
Oh
theory
sorry.
is that more similar your attitudes and beliefs are to somebody, the more likely it is that you'll  mutual attraction.
And so we can show that by speech convergence.
Erm convergence reflects a speakers desire for erm to get the listeners social approval.
Erm because once you've got their approval that increase the attraction and the intelligibility of what you're saying and predictability but I don't know quite what they mean by that.
Erm in general people desire approval more often than they don't, so the general tendency in conversations is for people to converge to each other in many situations.
Erm Are you keeping up?
Just about, yeah.
Erm many factors effect what type and extent of convergence happens erm and these can include the range of the speakers repertoire, the probability that there will be future interactions with the same listener,erm the status relationship between the two  participants and whether there's any recollections of previous shifts made by the listener in the same conversation.
Erm  and then it says that somebody called Natalie  erm wrote in nineteen seventy five, that the greater somebody's need for approval, the greater their tendency will be to converge with a style.
Erm and the way this is most often shown like the the th type of convergency they do is that they erm  change their vocal intensity to match that of the other person and their pause length is made the same.
Erm  then it goes on about quite a bit of this Erm perception and decoding of the speech style er talking about er  Martin and Giles.
Subject presumes perceived er speaker as pr prestigious and authoritative and they perceived that there might be future interaction with him perceived his speech is more similar to their own than subjects who were told nothing about the speaker.
Erm and the difference in appraisal between the groups of people that knew about the speaker before and those that didn't know anything, they say it is important to the similarity attraction .
Erm social exchange processes this talks about the rewards and costs of convergence up against each other.
Erm the similarity attraction model tends only to emph to emphasize the rewards of convergent .
Erm I E an increase in attraction or approval  the other person.
But there are costs involved as well and these include the increased effort you have to make in conversation erm and loss of perceived integrity and personal group identity  sacrificing yourself to match up to them.
Erm  Yeah, and they say that er before we actually erm  do a  speech convergence for want of a better phrase , erm that we kind of weigh up in our heads, quickly, the rewards and cost of you know alternative courses of action.
And so from a choice of between X and Y we're going to choose the opt option that we think maximizes the chances of a positive outcome, I E approval.
Erm so convergent speech acts should therefore incur more potential rewards for the speaker than costs.
Erm the rewards they're talking about depend on which hat level your convergence occurs at.
Erm and they give the example of erm a job interview Accent in a job interview.
Where it's two males, male applicant and a male interviewer, and the prospective employee has a less prestigious accent than the interviewer, so it's quite likely that the prospective employee would shift his accent towards a more that of the employer, due to his relative need of approval so much more than  vice versa.
And the rewards then would be that erm from the interviewers point of view he be you know viewed as more intelligent, self-confident, industrious all this sort of thing, make him say determined, erm more understandable to the interviewer obviously, and also the there He's more likely to be well liked by the interviewer, and that's Because of that not only his voice but the content of what he's actually saying is gonna be more favourably looked upon.
Erm  then it talks about the opposite.
Oh sorry that Before that er erm shows about how this erm convergence from dialectal to sort of pr prestigious or R P accent is known as a upward convergent.
And then it talks about the opposite accent  and it gives the example of There'll be an industrial dispute in a small family business erm and there is possibly a greater need by the employer to win the workers' approval.
Erm within the limits of his repertoire he'll shift his accent down towards that that of the workers erm shows them  cooperation and that's known as a downward convergence.
Erm downward convergence are generally done to reduce embarrassment between people of different statuses.
Erm so it makes a common basis of communication.
Mutual c convergence can also occur with upwards convergent by person and that's completed by downward towards the other.
That's generally if they both desire integration so it's not just done on the part of one person.
Erm so they're saying that erm speech convergence is generally erm quite favourably perceived.
That's about it really.
Right okay.
You haven't got anything else to add before we talk about ?
Okay as I said before, I think there's sort of three ways of doing the essay.
You can either think about doing one that is very literature based which I supposed might end up being  sort of a rewrite of a lot of the stuff you can read.
Or you can do a vaguely experimental sort of thing.
Now there's two different things you can do, there's one which you were originally gonna do  when it was a project.
Mm.
Which was to like actually do an experiment which might be a bit time consuming now and you might have to do 
Yeah.
If you want to do it you haven't really got you probably haven't got the time .
Haven't got the time.
The other thing might be do just do a questionnaire asking people about their attitudes to accents and dialects and 
Yes mm.
languages.
And that's something which you haven't like got to do a lot of recording for You haven't got test conditions you've got to think of some questions and photocopy it.
Mm.
Mm.
And then if you want to read some literature and talk about some of the things which Once you've said what questions you want to ask you'll want to read some stuff You've either read a lot of it already, the stuff you've done today is useful, and do a bit of your essay saying, This is what the literature says, so we did an experiment to test this aspect and here's the results we found, let's discuss this.
Erm 
So based on match-guise 
that's what it's gonna be about.
Well I mean you can't really you can't do much you can't do much about  
You can't really do that though  
The best thing would be to s sort of say I don't know but the sort of thing which came into my mind were questions like you know, Which accents  do you think
Yeah or I mean which accents do you think people sound more intelligent when they've got I mean, it's not that's heavily match- guised cos in match guised people are doing it without knowing what they're doing.
In this 
Mm.
we're asking people to make an informed choice
Mm.
and people have got to be aware of their prejudices 
But 
when they're answering.
yeah everybody's got some sort of accent that grates on their nerves though haven't they?
Yeah.
That they can't stand and there's another one they think it's nice.
Yeah I mean people don't always agree on those things 
Mm.
but you actually find some trends
Mm.
across the board.
Mm.
Er which also really doesn't look as if actually asks you  cross section.
Yeah you've gotta almost ask say you keep getting an accent erm Oh I don't know say Brummie accent or something that people don't really think sounds very nice.
Mhm.
Then you've got to go and try and find somebody from Birmingham saying  and erm  
Yeah I mean 
Mm 
if you can actually try and find one.
I mean it's probably a good idea to make a If you do a questionnaire to make a note of what accent 
the people you're asking have got.
Yeah.
And that way when you analyze the results you can sort of say, Well  we found that say Birmingham was very disliked erm but you can say that wasn't  I mean if everybody in the whole sample 
had been  I dunno a very  then you can say, Oh so it doesn't really show very much.
But if you have a reasonable cross section of the country and your result was still that Birmingham was looked down upon as a low status accent, then at least you can  your results so..
Would you have to say why?
Why you
Well I think if you can come up with some suggestions you don't have to say why.
Y you can say why you think it might be.
Some of it's the erm Actually could we put something like that in the questionnaire, What don't you like about it.
Yeah definitely.
Erm
Mm.
but the thing is  
See if you can actually quantify it or if it's irrational.
Yeah but I I mean sort of patronize them 
They might of  Oh sorry 
but because they're not linguists
Yeah.
they might not know how to say it.
Well
They might might 
in some ways the way that people describe things
The words they use .
I mean they're not a linguist but the words they use will say a lot about what they think about  .
A lot about what they think.
I mean if somebody says I used to People finding  grating people might say, Oh I find it grating but it doesn't really mean anything does it?
Mm.
And s I mean that's a a sort of non-linguistic of the people use but you sort of 
I suppose you have to into something linguistic then?
And you have to work out what they mean by that.
Er I mean it could just be that they don't like it, so anything which they don't like is grating or
Mm.
Whatever.
I mean
does that sound like the decent thing to do?
Yeah.
Should we all do the same questions ?
I I  get together 
Yeah.
on the same ?
Yeah.
I think you should all do the same questionnaire and the same survey but then if you can write it up separately.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So d do you want us to do like tables, results, you know 
I don't  
or just write  ?
Er it's up to you I mean if your results I mean you're not going to have loads and loads of results.
So 
No 
I mean doing a couple of tables probably won't be that hard work cos it just be a case of a list of averages or something .
Yeah.
Or a list of scores.
But I mean it's up to you if results are very simple you can sort of say, Oh well sixty percent went this way and forty 
Mm.
went the other way.
I mean it's up to you to display the data in the way that you think's best.
Okay.
Erm  is everyone okay with that?
Yeah.
Mm.
Right the best thing to do 
should we do it now?
The questions?
think of some now.
Because if you should think some now in the next five or ten minutes, and then if during the next week you meet in the week sometime
Mm.
to organize this.
do we do we want 
And if you get 
to Sorry to interrupt.
I was gonna say 
Sorry.
do we want to erm go I mean obviously we want to go away and I'll do it with my friend and you'll do it your 
Mm.
friend and you'll do it with your friend.
Erm but do you want us to keep our own results or do you want us to pool all  together 
I think you should pool together 
Say we could do ten each or something like that.
Yeah that would only be 
Yeah 
thirty people's plenty really  
Yeah okay 
something.
Right.
Er I might say if keep a little check list of whether each person you ask is male or female or how old they are
Mm.
what accent they've got I mean th that's plenty to do.
Yeah so yeah they've got to add some conditions on top of this things so it's like should we do an age range thing?
Or is that gonna be too wide  
Well  
I think  one person who is in their thirty or forties or two people so, you know you can't really quantify that very easily.
Yeah.
Mm.
Er so you might be best just sticking to people who are the s around the same age you know eighteen to twenty two or something.
Is it best to do sort of a say if a question, Which accent do you not like?
Is it best to do a series of accents and get 'em to tick or get 'em to  
Yeah like multiple choice ones.
Cos if you get em If you put a bo A multiple choice and if They're not actually think they just like look at one and, Oh I don't really like that all I don't really like  think about it .
Yeah they put an idea into their heads don't you? yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It it  
has this property of I you do put a list of accents it's a good idea to put other at the bottom in case there is 
Mm mm.
one you haven't mentioned .
Mm.
Because 
There's there's so many though aren't there I mean there's that Scottish accents which I love but other ones are a bit kind of difficult to understand you know.
Yeah I mean if you sort of put Scottish accent then you're probably going to  
But 
lots of Scottish people.
what's what's a Scottish accent 
Well there just think of it as being very different don't they?
Well yeah.
I mean  
Course they  
yeah.
Er so  you might be better of leaving it open.
Or leave it open for some questions if you want to test a ps specific thing in another question then try and test that.
Mm.
Erm.
A thing that's really  about accents that if you say to somebody, What accent don't you like?
They might really dislike sort of a standard English accent sort of
But they don't  yeah 
standard sort of middle class thing but the pre thin they might not think of that because people sort of quite often think of that as not being an accent.
Yeah.
Which is quite difficult.
Yeah well it's on all the radio and T V and stuff isn't it ?
Yeah.
And they don't think about it or
Mm.
or you could think it also  true that I think wh what you think you're supposed to like as well.
Yes I mean  
you're keep being told that's the way you're supposed to  
Sorry.
If you did have a list it  one of the list  B B C English or Queen's English or something that makes people know what they w what you're trying to tell them .
B B C accent yeah 
Er whereas if you ask somebody to name an accent they'd probably think of regional varieties, urban varieties,
But they don't think it is one 
rural ones .
do they?
Well you could you could do you could
putting a Say if you put
I won't join in this
Say you put, What accent do you not like?
And put a line.
And put in brackets E G you know how you like give an example for them to fill in and say E G B B C 
Yes 
English something like that 
Well what what you could do is  put in brackets somewhere a list of  accents you can think of so that if people really don't know what to do .
Yeah so you've got a list  
It's not your list of choices it's not going to have to take box form.
But they can just look through so they can say I can't think of an accent let's have a quick look through this list.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Er
and that way you can include  you can even include sort of very upper class varieties which are sort of 
We we could ask them actually where you could put where are you from
Yeah.
and then say, Do you perceive yourself as having an accent?
Yeah.
As well and so that that get's over whether they  you know that get's over this thing about erm  views of other people j the way you  
Yeah.
somebody else up you've got a massive accent, but then  turns round and says, Well so have you.
So there again perhaps try and find somebody who's from where they've said they're from and they might be ticking this box you know .
Yeah.
Another thing that might be worth doing as well I mean don't make it too complicated we ought to  about which things to put in.
if you want to say put the name of an accent down You wanted to put say Birmingham and then say, How would you rate people who have a strong accent from this place on a scale of one to five for  friendless, honesty the things which you could  
Yeah 
Yeah 
Yeah 
scale of one to five for each one with one being er
But yeah I mean it's not going to be quite so true because they're gonna think Well when you write it down you think Well actually it's got nothing to do with this be really clever.
But and that takes away that initial reaction.
Yeah.
have to put something they're gonna have prejudices and  
Yeah that's right 
Er but we like say don't want to put everything in cos it would take you a while to analyze that but that's another thing you might want to put on.
How many questions do you think?
I don't know I mean  I think if you had a double side of a sheet of A four that was well spaced out and stuff that would be  
er you wouldn't want to make them You wouldn't particularly have more than a dozen or so would you?
No.
No.
But I mean  more or less so You'll probably get a feel for when you've got  things.
yeah.
I reckon your sort of timetable for doing this wants to be, early next week to meet to work out exactly what questions you are gonna do and mak make a questionnaire and perhaps later on in the week Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, start to ask some people Now on the Friday this time this we this time next week you c 
you can talk about some of your results in here and we'll discuss about anything that's gonna be problems we'll discuss how you're can write it up and how you want to display the statistics if 
Yeah.
you've got some complicated ones.
Er and then you can write it up sometime during week four and hand it in sort of Wednesday, Thursday week four would be quite good.
Okay what Do we have to do a methodology project as well?
I don't think you do  
.
or do you?
To be in when?
By end of week four.
Yeah.
Three sides.
Three sides.
It's not bad it's 
Mm.
just a
We're gonna have to be doing that at the same time.
Well I mean I a asked Christine yesterday and she was saying that because this isn't a project any more it's actually supposed to in the end of week three.
But you know I think if I say to her  hand it in week four then
Mm.
she won't mind so  push past week four she might 
Yeah.
we could do the first bits and  about an hour really, this weekend not  at work or anything.
No cos we've we've got the first two bits, we've got the rational for the experiment and the method
What do we have to do?
We just have to write one side on the rational and one side on the method and the third side's on the results.
But I mean we don't know h how long  
We haven't got eight
So we can do the first two.
No he's gonna give us the other results.
Erm.
We can do the first two and then  
two 
It's on that Were you there the other day when we got that sheet?
Yeah is on there?
Yeah it's all 
Okay.
on there.
Oh good okay.
But why do we do the experiment then?
Oh I dunno .
Okay so we  You're really gonna have to sort of do
Meet on Monday 
Monday .
So.
So if next week c you can at least of started 
three hours a week 
to  the questionnaire er but we definitely have done finish finished making the questionnaire I mean gonna have to
Well yeah cos we want to get out and distribute it and get it back.
Yeah.
can do it on Monday and we can People will have until Friday then to ask .
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah we'll do it on Monday.
What have we got?
Well I've got three hours from straight from nine fifteen in the morning so I'd like  a bit of a break actually after that .
No sorry.
afternoon.
Oh.
I've got one free in the afternoon so
I've got a three 
Yeah I have 
fifteen as well.
I've got .
Oh
Only take an hour or so won't it anyway ?
Yeah.
Okay if you want any help or anything I should be around for 
Okay.
next week so catch me if you want anything.
Got anything together?
We've got Principles of Linguistics .
Principles at nine fifteen though I've got to one 
Oh yeah.
Mm I've got English and then I've got  the afternoon 
I can do at two fifteen if you like.
Yeah I think I can do two fifteen.
I think I might be able to  
is two fifteen okay?
two fifteen 
She said two fifteen
Let's do lunch.
here.
Right a a t Here?
Okay two fifteen yeah.
I'll probably forget you'll probably come and get me.
Okay let's hold it there.
Yeah
Right, cheers.
See you next week or before then.
Yeah.

Hello.
pinching .
Erm, it's about my back today.
Aha.
It's  for a, a couple of weeks there it wasn't too bad, but now I feel as if it's .
What did you do to it?
It doesn't look bruised, mind, but it feels, sore to touch or anything?
I, I really don't know what I've done.
I know times I get it, like  maybe just at one side, if I've been sitting in a hard seat
Mhm.
at a, a particular wee bit if I've been leaning back,
Aye.
you know, but 
But this is all over?
Right.
It's just i i there isn't any bruising.
And there's nothing to see?
You know, I've I've, well I've looked.
The best I can
Mhm.
and I cannae see any bruising, but  it feels
It feels all bruised.
as though it's all bruised.
And in 
And no and nothing you can think of that started it up?
and it's sore like  nerves.
Like
Pins and needles?
you know how if you hit your elbow?
Aha right.
Or er  you know into my finger.
Into your fingers.
You know when I, when I go to lift something, or if I use
Mhm.
pressing on this finger,
Aye, it feels numb.
right up
Right up the arm.
Right.
this arm.
Right.
Er your hand doesn't get swollen or anything like that Cathy, no?
You've not seen anything?
No, I don't think it's been
Nothing at all.
swollen or anything.
Right.
right in into my wrist.
Right through?
Right.
Aye.
What about your elbow?
Aye, up to my elbow.
U u right up to your elbow.
Not so bad at the top.
Mhm.
More down at the bottom.
Painful down 
Right.
from my finger up.
Now,are you on anything in the way of tablets that could be upsetting your, your system  at all?
I just got two  two bottles the last time I was in, I can't .
Nothing?
And was one of them not for that and my neck?
Mhm.
That's
Yeah.
still a bit sore.
Still a bit sore?
Right.
Mhm.
Right.
And an odd time 
it goes really
Right.
I feel as if it's really deep,
Mhm.
deep, deep.
And then it kind of calms down a wee bit.
Then it calms down, right.
There's nothing in that that would cause this problem.
Is this a sort of neuralgia 
just 
Yeah.
you know a kind of painkiller I'm taking.
No , it's  er, no this tingling down to your fingers, that's a different thing Catherine.
Erm, right.
Is it the same thing?
Aye, it's the same thing down your back.
Yeah.
Coming down my back maybe, and 
Now the one thing you'll have to watch  excuse me  excuse me, with these tablets, is anything with alcohol in it.
It's liable to make you sick
Mhm.
if you mix the two.
And
I've been feeling a wee bit sick.
Yeah.
Apart from just this.
That's right.
Like, well, the wee'un's not too good, she's loaded with the cold and  sore throat, and been a wee bit sick, too.
But today 
Yeah.
I've been feeling a wee bit
Yeah.
I had something to eat earlier on, and I felt awfully 
Just
sicky.
as if I was going to be sick.
watch your  watch your tummy with this  stuff.
It's good, but it's  you know, it'll fight  er with anything, any sort of beer or whisky or any of these things, but it'll also fight with cough bottles.
Er and tonic bottles.
Because nearly all of them have a very small amount in.
So, if you're on anything like that at all, forget it.
Leave it off just now Cathy.
And what about the
till I get you sorted.
Tagamet and things?
Is that o okay?
That's okay.
Tagamet's fine.
No problem there.
The inhalers?
Ventolin isn't a problem.
Aye, it's only alcohol and things with alcohol in, that you n need to watch Cathy.
And can you give me 
Okay? and that 
some Tagamet and Ventolin?
Mhm.
There we are now.
And that'll put that right for you.
There you are Cathy.
Could you give me a, a line?
.
Er, I had a, a card to go for an X-ray.
For the 
Yes.
pain I was having in my side.
Yes.
But I haven't managed to do it yet.
That's okay.
That's no problem.
Erm  should I, should I wait till the pain's 
First, first time you get a chance.
really really bad or anything before I go?
No?
Just any time?
No no.
No no.
Just first time you get a chance, you go over and get them to X-ray it, and they'll see if there's any damage at the back there.
To try and find out what's going on.
Turn you into a human being.
You're not kidding .
That's what it feels like  
Well 
especially with the wee one being
well,
ill, I mean 
well 
she's up all night,.
Turn you int turn you into a human being.
You cannae be upset with her, because she hasn't .
She can't help it.
She can't
Aye well, you look after her, that's the main thing.
Keep her right.
Mm.
Turn her into a human being.
And then she can do  me.
That's right.
Right, Catherine.
Okay now.
Cheerio just now.

Right so  so we have erm the Neighbourhood Hous Housing Officer and the, the Area Housing Officer.
Erm how do you, what's, what's, how do the roles actually differ?
Erm, well, there's sort of five staff
Yeah.
here at 
Yeah.
at the office.
Two Area Housing Officers management, erm one Area Housing Officer technical, a clerical 
Mhm.
and a Neighbourhood Housing Officer.
I'm responsible for the sort of overall management, but I tend not to get out as much as say, Area Housing Officers, they're more sort of at grass roots.
Mhm.
Erm sort of I may deal with sort of solicitors letter, that sort, the, the more complicated legal side, and, and that sort of thing.
Erm distribute work out to, to officers and they report back if there's problems with it or, or that sort of thing.
Mhm.
erm in your case you worked at erm another neighbourhood office prior to erm , and how does it compare working ?
Yeah, prior to, prior to coming to Hyson Green, I worked at ,
Yeah.
and then previously I worked at  neighbourhood office, and I only came to  when it had be d been declared a clearance area,
Mhm.
so it was totally different work from what I'd been used to.
Mhm.
Erm but it w saw it as a useful experience in a clearance exercise, which 
Mhm.
I'd never been involved in before as an Area Housing Officer, and just involved with day to day management, but with it being a clearance area it's a totally different approach, and the sort of things that you deal with are totally different as well.
Mhm.
So what are the areas of work that you've been involved in?
What are the
Previously?
Yeah, previous, and how, and how's, and how's, does it yeah, well, here, right?
T what, what's the kind of work that you are now involved in?
What, what's your  
Well before,y you tended 
Yeah.
to deal with re-letting the property, normal 
Yeah.
day to day transfers, neighbour problems, that sort of thing.
Now you're involved with finding people alternative accommodation.
Erm there's no choice everybody's got to move, and you're more involved with the, the removal of people, sort of, the sort of problems that they encounter finding removal firms, connection of electricity at the new places, and all that sort of thing.
Mhm.
In terms of the Neighbourhood Housing Office, what are the, what are the origins behind that, cos this is  cos this i this actual, it's actually situated, isn't it, within the flats, erm 
do you think that was a deliberate decision made that it should be part of the flats rather than somewhere outside,
Yeah, it's part of 
erm the housing policy erm 
Yeah.
to basically decentralize erm er N c the city of Nottingham.
Erm they, they picked out erm particular areas where there were a lot of pe there were problems within that area erm whether it be normal management problems or erm racial issues, I E there is a particular area, there is a high density of black people erm er the properties them themselves weren't up erm of a particularly high quality, erm they decided to decentralize and i and do an intensive management area for that area.
Erm and so they set up a team erm four or five teams within the city, er which included  Radford, the Crabtree Meadows area, erm and Bestwood area 
Mhm.
Yeah, how does it actually differ, this kind of office and the roles that 
It's  
compared with the typical traditional Housing Officer?
Housing Officer, yeah.
Erm you basically erm deal with erm the tenants on a more personal basi basis,
Mhm.
you, you, you see them as erm er er you know you t you speak to them on erm christian name terms, you, you help them with any kind of erm social problem or welfare problem they may have.
It's not a par erm not particularly a housing problem.
Erm you, you're in fact a er everybody, er every Housing Officer erm  oh what was I going to say?
They, they're sort of like a probation officer, social worker, that sort of thing, erm most people come to us with all sorts of problems not just not particularly housing problems.
And you're on site, you're about 
And you're on site, yeah, yeah.
You're just 
two minutes away, aren't you?
Yeah, they see you every day, they you know and 
You use the same shops and
Mm.
you know.
Mhm.
How good would you say the relationship has been between erm the Housing, Housing Office and the tenants,how is the relationship for all of you?
I think 
generally, there, there is erm a decent rapport between us and the tenants, er because yo we, we do explain to them erm you know what we can do, and what we can't do.
The they're never sort of given feeble excuses, we are erm very truthful with them,i in order to make them understand that, you know, there are limitations erm within our jobs as well, cos a lot of people expect things, and erm you may promise them, well other people may promise them, and it's not delivered then of course it's sort of them and us, and we, we try to dispel that idea, it's not them 
Mhm.
and us.
We're here to serve them, that's why we're being paid.
Er we we're here to give them a decent service, and we'll do our utmost to do that,
Mhm.
and help done.
Obviously you can't please everybody,
Everybody.
You are going to get people who are, who are

both aged eleven accused of killing James Bulger a boy of two.
The body of the toddler was found in February two days after he disappeared from a shopping centre in Bootle.
The defendants are also charged with abduction and attempting to abduct another boy of two on the same day.
The Prime Minister is to make a statement on Northern Ireland in Commons this afternoon.
He'll tell MPs that the Government is trying to restart negotiations involving all the constitutional parties in the Province.
Meanwhile police in Northern Ireland are continuing to question eight people about the massacre at a pub in County Londonderry on Saturday night.
Seven people died in the attack on the Rising Sun at Greysteel.
Five of those injured are still in hospital one is critically ill.
A Nottinghamshire Day Centre which caters for more than a hundred mentally handicapped people is facing closure.
Beaver Vale in Bingham looks likely to become the latest casualty of cuts to the county's social services budget.
A number of children's homes and old people's homes are also likely to be shut down.
The authorities say they'll provide alternative services for everyone who uses the Centre and that they hope to redeploy the forty staff.
The Social Services Director David White says closing Beaver Vale is the best option available to them.
We've taken a number of factors into account one of which is the lower occupancy levels at Beaver Vale.
We've looked at the current number of users, where they live, the journey times that they have often provided by us on tra transport and the possibilities of where we can relocate them and clearly we have a number of centres in the Nottingham er conurbation which will be made available to those users from Beaver Vale.
The singer Elton John has taken a national newspaper to court over an article last December which claimed he was hooked on a bizarre diet which meant he spat out food without swallowing.
Elton John is seeking exemplary damages against Mirror Group Newspapers which publishes the Sunday Mirror.
Mallory Geld reports from the High Court in London.
The singer's lawyer George Carman Q C told the court the Sunday Mirror story was headlined, Elton's diet of death and the secret of slim Elton's spitting image.
It claimed Elton John was hooked on eating food and spitting it out and it claimed he told guests at a Los Angeles party, I'm on the don't swallow and get thin diet.
The singer who was in court shook his head as the article was read out.
Mr Carman said the story was completely untrue.
The singer had fought and won his battles against bulimia, drug and alcohol abuse and had publicly spoken about it to help others get over the nightmare of addiction.
He said the Sunday Mirror had offered to publish an apology but Elton John had rejected it because the paper had recklessly published the article.
Aid workers in central Bosnia have told the United Nations it must act to protect more than a thousand Moslems trapped in the Croatian controlled enclave of Vareys.
The warning follows last week's massacre of at least twenty five people in the nearby village of .
the head of the operation in central Bosnia said the Moslems had been subjected to blatant human rights abuses and the U N might soon have to evacuate them.
He was asked what U N peace keepers were doing to protect Moslem civilians in the area.
What is happening is they're patrolling the areas intensively, they're maintaining contact with these er terrified Moslems to try to avert any type of er foul play in the area.
Eventually the situation continues to deteriorate which it probably will everything indicates that er the situation in Vareys is explosive, erm the U N nations may be forced to have to evacuate these people and obviously there are implications involved in that.
A radical plan to demolish the Commons' Chamber and rebuild it in the shape of a semicircle is being put forward by a Nottingham M P.
Labour's Graham Allen argues that if the lobbies were knocked out MPs could have a semicircular debating chamber electronic voting and a named desk each.
The weather forecast for Nottinghamshire all parts will stay dry today and although there'll still be a good deal of cloud for much of the time some bright or perhaps sunny intervals are possible.
Top temperature nine Celsius forty eight Fahrenheit.
B B C Radio Nottingham news it's five minutes past two.
Hello and welcome to afternoon special this Monday afternoon linking the East Midlands, and a special special we've got we've got erm a scoop because we've got Foster and Allan as guests on the programme.
They're in Nottingham tonight and they're later at the Ritz at Lincoln but they've just heard that they're number one in the hit parade with their new video.
So we're the first to have them after them gaining number one.
On the hour the news and weather and we'd like to hear from you this afternoon Nottingham three four three four three four the number to ring if you'd like to have a chat on the air.
You have to dial the code O six O two if you're ringing from outside the Nottingham area.
Collector's corner is the feature round about three thirty so if you want to go on collector's corner if you collect anything for a hobby that's the spot for you.
Give us a ring, Nottingham three four three four three four.
And we have a competition it's spot the singer it's quite simple when you know the singer it is anyway.
So if you'd like to play the game the only rule is that you mustn't have played a phone in competition on this programme in the last four weeks.
Give us a ring Nottingham three four three four three four if you think you can spot the singer.
There's music throughout starting with Diana Ross.
Three four for spot the singer.
Stevie Wonder that was and Up Tight and er we've got the eight contestants for the competition so we'll play the game now.
First on is Ken  of Allerton good afternoon Ken.
Good afternoon Dennis.
Did you hear the singer last week?
I did.
All right tell me who this is.
Who is it?
Er Jimmy James and the Vagabonds.
Absolutely right Jimmy James and the Vagabonds er so er you get a prize.
Oh thank you very much.
Can you call for it to Derby?
I can.
You're calling at Derby thank you Ken.
Okay then
Bye.
Bye.
Prize winner already with Ken and Jimmy James and the Vagabonds and er the postal competition winners coming up now.
A prize goes to John  of  Grimsby.
So you got a prize so have you.
Carol  of  Lincoln.
Hope you can call for yours at Radio Lincolnshire.
And Joan  there's a famous name for you of  Belper and one more and it's Terry  of  Leicester, prize for you.
So those are our prize winners by post and it was Jimmy James and the Vagabonds next on is Angela  of Lincoln.
Hello.
Did you know it was Jimmy James and the Vagabonds ?
Yes I did  that's why I rang in.
Well see if you know who this is.
Okay it's a very famous name any ideas?
Er no I haven't.
No good all right.
No.
Thank you for trying.
Okay then.
Bye Angela.
Bye bye bye bye.
John  of Clifton.
Hello Dennis.
What do you think John?
No idea I knew who that Jimmy James.
You did.
Yes seventies isn't it?
That's right everybody seems to know .
But you don't know who this is?
No.
All right thanks .
No idea Dennis.
Thanks for trying.
Thanks.
Bye.
Bye.
John  of New Whittington.
Hello there.
Carries a famous name she does, any ideas?
Er could you  bit more of it please?
Any ideas?
Er I think she used to sing with a group and I think she's gone on her own and I don't know which one to go for.
Can go for two then.
It were Patti Le Bell
No.
or the Pointer Sisters.
No.
Oh.
No neither of them .
I am surprised yeah.
All right.
Okay then.
Thanks for trying.
Okay then.
Bye bye 
Bye.
Next contestant is Irene Walker of Lincoln.
Irene.
Hello don't know it at all.
No good at all?
No is it the Mojos no no .
It's an individual singer carrying a famous name.
No no all right thanks for trying.
Bye
Bye this is the singer you have to identify.
Anybody know that one?
On the line from Lincoln er Simon .
Simon?
I've never heard of it Dennis but I'll have a wild stab in the dark it's 
No carrying a famous name you see.
All right okay Simon.
Sorry.
Bye.
Bye.
Steven  of  Green.
Hello Dennis is it er Nata Natalie Cole?
It's Natalie Cole yes.
Nat King Cole's daughter you're right and the prize is yours can you call for it?
Er yes I can.
Thank you Steven.
Okay.
Bye.
When can I come down for it Dennis?
Oh any time between nine and six.
Right okay.
Okay.
Thank you.
Bye.
Bye.
Steven got it, Natalie Cole.
Nat King Cole's daughter told you it carried a famous name.
All right erm the postal one the postal one.
What shall we have for the postal one.
Let's have erm  let's have a group yes let's have a group tell you what we'll do we'll have a group.
We'll have this group identify this group on a postcard to, Spot the Singers Linkmail four one four, Derby Leicester, Lincoln, or Nottingham whichever is closest to you.
Postcard to be here by Monday next week identify this group please.
Now who's that?
Spot the Singers Linkmail four one four Derby Leicester Lincoln or Nottingham that's where you send the postcard to be here by Monday next week identifying that group.
Postcards by Monday.
Okay that's it that's erm that's our competition over.
Now if you'd like to call us and have a chat on the air Nottingham three four three four three four is the number to ring.
Lots of inquiries about Foster and Allen they're coming on the programme later they've just got number one for the first time with their new video with their new single  I don't know I'm not quite sure we'll find out when they get here well they've just got number one for the first time and they've been trying hard for a long time.
So that's great.
Now they are at the Royal Concert Hall in Nottingham tonight.
Fairly sure in saying that.
We're a little bit topsy and turvy cos er our programme researcher Sophie er is er is not with us today and as a result we're a bit topsy and turvy and I haven't got all the papers associated with Foster and Allen but we'll get all the details from F two lads when they come in.
Always welcome guests and er I think it a bit tight to get a ticket tonight but there they are Royal Concert Hall if you want to try.
Do you want to know about a spectacular firework display?
It's at a lovely venue it's at the Great Central Railway at Loughborough.
The Great Central Railway Britain's only preserved main line steam railway is hosting a spectacular firework display and bonfire party at the Quorn Station this Friday.
It's going to be lit at seven thirty with the firework display starting at seven forty five.
And visitors will be treated to a spectacular show with thousands of pounds worth of fireworks on display.
Traditional bonfire night fare will be served including hot dogs mushy peas and jacket potatoes and there's also a licensed bar and you can even travel to the bonfire by steam train.
Trains depart from Loughborough at six fifteen and six forty five, Leicester North at six fifty and Rothley at five past seven.
Alternately admission is available on the gate at Quorn Station.
The return train fares including admission to the bonfire from Loughborough adults four pounds children three pounds,Loftb er Leicester North adults six pounds children three pounds, Rothley adults six pounds children three pounds and admission on the gate at Quorn is adults two pounds children one pound fifty.
And you can telephone O five O nine two three O seven two six if you want to advance book your train service.
All right?
O five O nine two three O seven two six if you want to advance book your train.
And that gets you admission the firework spectacular at the Great Central Railway and that's at the Quorn Station this Friday seven thirty.
Nice one that.
Er right we have a call Joan  from Derby hello.
Hello Dennis.
Yes?
Right I just wondered  if you would mention my animal charities day at St John's Church Hall, on this coming Saturday the sixth of November.
What's happening?
Er well it's just all the char about thirteen fourteen charities are getting together just to sell their own goods, bric-à-brac and various other things.
We're doing refreshments and it's twenty pence to come in.
It will be opened by the Mayoress of Derby, Mrs Webster at ten thirty.
So it's all in aid of animal charities?
Yes that's right.
Which animal charities are you interested in?
Well mine's the National Canine Defence League.
I see now that's one that isn't may not be known to some of our listeners they're used to the R S P C A and the P D S A but the National Canine Defence League what makes it different?
Well we have a non-destructive policy.
But I've been a member for many years I like the policy and erm my friends and I just decided that we would fund raise for them as they haven't got anyone in this area.
We've been going since well September eighty three and I agree with what you say.
When we first started people used to say, Canine Defence League never heard of them, but since then people have come up to us and said, Oh I met you last year and I've joined the League.
That's very good and since September eighty three that's ten years ago how much have you made?
Well we we can't say o overall but we started in a very small way but on average Dennis we raise in the region of two thousand pounds a year.
That's very good.
It takes a lot of earning.
Yeah I bet it does.
Yeah you see, bric-à-brac isn't so readily available now there are car boot sales so we have to resort to other means like the sponsored dog walk and er this type of thing.
You can offer for the stall when you can't fill a hall
Mm.
so we've invited everyone to come along.
So what time on Saturday?
Ten thirty, that's when the Mayoress will open it.
So it's this Saturday ten thirty at St John's Church Hall .
Park Farm yes.
Park Farm
Yes.
Mm
and it's opened at ten thirty by the Mayor.
Yes and it's only twenty pence to come in.
Okay I hope it goes well for you.
Thank you very much Dennis.
Bye Joan.
Thank you good bye.
Nottingham three four three four three four if you'd like to have a chat on the air that's the number to ring.
O six O two is the code if you're ringing from outside the Nottingham area then it's Nottingham three four three four three four.
So that er animal charities day is at St John's Church, Park Farm oh John St John's Church Hall, Park Farm, twenty pence to get in ten thirty it starts this Saturday.
Don't forget the phone number Nottingham three four three four three four.
That was the Merseys and Gordon that was.
Er now there's a big charity dance happening with Phil Kelsall the resident organist at the Tower Ballroom Blackpool.
The dance is taking place er with the big sound of the Alfreton dance orchestra at the Leisure Centre Alfreton er Friday week the twelfth of November.
And the tickets are four pounds each.
It's put on by the Rotary Club of Alfreton.
So if you're interested there you are have a cop.
A week on Friday the twelfth of November a week on Friday the twelfth of November a big charity dance at the Al Alfreton Leisure Centre.
Er and its music's going to be provided by the great Phil Kelsall, the resident organist at the Tower Ballroom Blackpool.
Supported by the Alfreton dance orchestra.
It's eight o'clock till midnight and all proceeds for the dance will be donated to local and national charities it's organized by the Rotary Club of Alfreton.
So make a note again tickets four quid each, the annual grand charity dance modern old time and sequence.
Phil Kelsall the resident organist at the Tower Ballroom Blackpool and the big sound of the Alfreton dance orchestra.
A week on Friday the twelfth of November eight till midnight.
Now if you'd like two tickets I've got one pair of tickets only, we'll send them by post we need your postcode call us on Nottingham three four three four three four but please make sure that you can use the tickets before you call please.
Carrie Ann by the Hollies.
The tickets have gone the tickets have gone for the er the Phil Kelsall concert you can get them on the door four quid on the night a week on Friday at eight o'clock at the er Alfreton Leisure Centre but our complimentary tickets have gone, long long gone.
Now we've got some a van load of wood to be collected from Derby for bonfire night.
Anybody want a van load of wood to be collected from Derby bonfire for a bonfire?
Anybody want any wood for a bonfire in the Derby area?
Call Derby double five double seven four five please.
Derby double five double seven four five if you want wood for a bonfire in the Derby area.
Derby double five double seven four five.
Fred Brown of Calverton, Fred.
Yes good afternoon Dennis.
Yes.
Er I just ringing through to say that I heard your er broadcast last week in respect of Carnfield Hall and I went on Saturday afternoon a gentleman named Hugh rang you up.
That's right he was it was an open day wasn't there?
Yes er yes.
What's it what's it like?
Well it er I was very it's not a stately home it's the equivalent I would say to a sort of erm lower landed gentry upper er working class sort of place.
Yes.
Erm it's very very original a lot of original in it.
The I think the only changes he did tell us was in sixteen eighty when they put sash windows on the front.
Erm the gentleman who took us round who was excellent er what impressed me was the fact that it was no sort of straight patters one gets with guides you know when you go round these places.
Mm.
It was erm the sort of commentary was er interspersed with anecdotes and it was really excellent and there was even a little bit of a mention of a connection with er D H Lawrence in respect of the lady of the house at one time of day was er er had er assignation with the local gamekeeper which ended in a bit of tragedy.
Mm.
But er it wa the house itself was so original
How big is it?
Er well forty rooms.
That sounds fairly big.
Well I would say physically it's roughly about a quarter of the size of Woollaton Hall.
Really?
So you know quarter to a third and er it's not got a lot of land with it and of course it's not mentioned a great deal in directories.
The last big family to live name of  was the original er well the last big family and it's now owned by er er Barbara Cartland's brother, chap named John
Oh yes?
and he lives in a chateaux in France.
Anyway I won't say any more because I'll other people will eventually go but Hugh Berger is a gentleman who owns it or who lives in it at this time
Mm.
he is he's hop hoping to open it probably a week at Christmas but I would tell people if they do go to wrap up warm because the heating is as original except for a sort of Aga stove in the kitchen which they use as their sort of central point to live in.
So worth going to see?
It is if you if you want to go and see it and get a sort sense of history without a lot of shall we say school school book text type history, but just local history excellent I I I was there well the tour was erm an hour and three quarters and it sort of ran out of light more than ran of talk.
Lovely and were there many going round?
Er well there was a party in front of us er of about forty and well there was about twenty five in ours.
Ooh so quite a number then?
Well yes and they were it was you know the What impressed me also you know what it's like when you go to these places I can remember going not so long ago to Blenheim and er just about to examine something and this thundering voice coming down the hallway, Do not touch.
yes 
Well this  you can sit down in the seats, you can look at the you can touch the tables, there's not a lot of stuff but if if you got any sense of history you can get the feel of the place you know.
So we'll look out for Carnfield Hall.
Yes it as I say it's nothing grand but I just enjoyed this man's conversation, he was so good.
Ee well he sounded good on the phone.
Yes er his voice on the on the radio it sounded a bit like Leslie Phillips but he isn't like  Leslie Phillips .
Fred thanks a lot for ringing.
Okay good bye then Dennis good bye .
So keep a note on that one Carnfield Hall if you get a chance to see it it might be open again just before Christmas.
Erm there's an all star variety show at Mapley Plain Social Club this Wednesday.
It starts at eight o'clock the tickets are six quid on the door and appearing are the Ivy League Alf Berry and Heather Nixon, Night Ride organist and drummer and the compere is Peter Lawrie it'll be a good night I'll tell you that.
All star variety show I've got just two tickets.
Give us a ring Nottingham three four three four three four we'll send them by first class post and we'll put need your postcode.
But please make sure you can use the tickets.
This Wednesday all star variety show at the Mapley Plain Social Club in Nottingham and please make sure you can use the tickets.
Dennis  of Calverton 
Hello Dennis.
Yes Dennis?
Ah what we're looking for on behalf of the Calverton British Legion, is a bugler or trumpeter to blow the Last Post and reveille twice on armistice Sunday.
What time?
Er eleven o'clock and twelve o'clock.
Where?
Well in the hall where we hold our service and then in 
Is that at Calverton?
Yeah.
Calverton in Nottingham.
Yep.
All right I'll put y Oh by the way the tickets have gone those tickets have gone but you can get them on the door at the Mapley Plain Social Club this Wednesday in Nottingham and you can see the Ivy League Alf, Berry and Heather Nixon, Night Ride organist and drummer and the compere Peter Lawrie six quid the tickets are admission at eight o'clock this Wednesday an all star show at the Mapley Plain Social Club in Nottingham.
Right back to you for a bugler?
Yeah
Can't you do it?
years ago I could.
You could?
Er so you want a bugler for the Last Post.
Bugler or trumpeter you know .
Eleven o'clock and twelve o'clock at Calverton in Nottinghamshire this Sunday.
No fourteenth of November 
Oh sorry 
Armistice Sunday.
A week a week on Sunday?
Yes.
A week on Sunday.
Do you have a big do?
Yes there's two or three hundred go, scouts, guides, British Legion.
Do you think it will always happen?
Do you think it will always be that we have one?
I hope so  I hope so memories are memories and er
Well if you go back in time if you go back if you go forward in time say twenty years you won't have anybody left from the last world war will you?
This may be so but er with all the skirmishes we've got on at present and there's active there'll be ex-servicemen from them and they've these funny enough these young ones are coming along and joining the British Legion
Mm.
So they'll carry on I think.
All right let's see if we can get you a bugler nobody's ringing at the moment but you want a bugler for a week on Sunday the fourteenth to blow reveille and the Last Post at eleven o'clock and twelve o'clock a week on Sunday at Calverton in Nottinghamshire.
And we'll pay reasonable expenses as long as they don't come from Australia of course.
Yeah all right pay reasonable expenses anybody calls we'll ring you Dennis.
Right thank you very much.
Thank you bye.
Bye bye.
Nottingham three four three four three four and we'll put you in touch with Dennis who lives at Calverton erm Nottinghamshire.
Now Pru  of Cranwell.
Yes Pru.
Hello Dennis.
Hello.
Erm I'm just calling because I hear you've written a book on Irish water spaniels.
Oh yes 
I've just erm got a 
Have you not got the book?
No.
Goodness gracious me .
How long's it been out?
Ooh a year and a half perhaps .
Oh Well we've just come back from America we've been in America for three years.
Are you in the R is your husband in the R A F?
Yes he is.
What was he doing in America?
We were at er the Air Force Academy, United States Air Force Academy in Colorado.
Why?
Just doing an exchange tour.
Really what did you do there?
He taught.
He taught flying and erm military air power and military doctrine.
Oh.
Mm had a wonderful three years .
I bet you did I bet you did.
Coming back to  wet and windy Lincolnshire.
So whereabouts in America?
Colorado.
Oh Colorado.
Mm Colorado Springs.
Yeah it was wonderful absolutely wonderful.
Well what's wonderful about it?
Hey listen I tell you what I always ask do they have real big thick steaks there?
Yes yes.
Like we you never see anything like that in this country at all the steaks .
Well not unless you want to pay an arm and a leg for them no.
the steak out there is about the same price as mince here.
Is it?
Fillet steak is is just a regular meal over there.
I mean you have to  save up for it here don't you ?
That's right you do that's right about eight pounds or eight pounds fifty a pound.
I know yes.
Well it's about erm about four dollars a pound over there which I would imagine is about nearly three pounds.
Mm.
Yeah wonderful wonderful food.
So if you had the chance you'd have stayed there?
Yes oh yes another about another six years probably but we had to come back to educate the kids.
Oh I see how many children have you got?
We've four girls between us it's a second marriage so we've erm
How old?
Two at seventeen and two at fifteen.
So what did they think of America?
Oh they loved it Dennis.
Did they really?
Yes they loved it.
There was lots of skiing and lots lots of things to do.
It was a wonderful place.
Lovely people but I mean it's nice to be back.
Yes.
Lovely to be back.
So it's got it's got Colorado's got the edge on us?
Er well weatherwise it certainly has you don't go a day without seeing the sun shine, there's hardly any rain.
What about the desert there?
Yeah that's a bit boring.
Is it?
Yeah .
Did you go?
Hundreds of miles.
We we tried to do as much as we could we drove from erm Colorado right the way round California up through Utah and stuff and so it is some parts of the desert are very boring.
So how long were you in America?
Three years.
Who pays for that?
Who pays for that?
Well I think it's a joint er it's a joint thing it's an agreement we have with the United States Air Force, they send somebody over here to our Academy and then erm we send somebody over there.
But how can your husband teach at the Academy at the Air Force when the Americans have got their own Air Force and we've got ours and they really are very different?
Well I suppose it's it's just to try and find out different opinions on on different wars and things like that.
What rank is he?
He's a Squadron Leader.
So over there what's the equivalent rank?
Major.
Is it?
Mm yeah .
Oh so and was it all sort of erm erm society do's that you went to and cocktails and things like 
Well they dusted us off and brought us out occasionally and that yes.
Did they?
Yeah yeah.
Great social swirl.
Yes it was nice we we did lots of entertaining and and things like that it was really good fun it was it was fun.
And at the U S Air Force Academy have they got any aeroplanes?
Yes they have they've got what er they call T forty ones little T forty one er Fisher Price type aeroplanes.
Really?
Yeah.
But flying was wonderful I think er for him because it was lots of mountains and lots of lovely scenery and er and things like.
You sound as though you miss it a bit?
I do a little but you know I think when you live in the military you always leave a little bit of yourself somewhere you know at places you go and erm.
Where else have you been?
Well pers I haven't been anywhere else apart from Southampton and places like that, but erm this is our first overseas tour together since we got married.
Where has he been before?
Er Cyprus he was in Cyprus and erm then mainly Waddington on on Vulcans and things like that.
So you really do see the world in the R A F then?
Yes I think you do erm I think you see life as well.
You see you meet lots of wonderful people lots of different people and it's always nice to People make the place don't they?
Now my geography isn't too good Colorado how near to California which is a State 
Well 
I know a little bit about.
Well we're erm about two, three, four days drive from California .
Oh a long way then.
Yeah we were four days drive from the Grand Canyon.
Anyway you wanted to talk about dogs.
Yes I did .
How come you got you didn't have dogs in America did you?
Well we took we took our bearded collie over to America and brought him back with us but he's thirteen.
Did he go through quarantine?
Yeah yeah.
And do all right?
Yes he did he was wonderful.
Where did you 
He's still wonderful.
Where did he quarantine?
He quarantined in erm Gr Little Bytham in Grantham.
Oh yes not too far away so did you go and see him often?
No we didn't we sent him back in the February and we came back in er at the end of July so he was 
Oh I see 
ready to come out we were when we came back.
How much is quarantine for six months?
A lot of money.
How much?
I had I saved for three years.
How much?
Erm well we put two cats through as well so erm I think it all in all with the flights out and the flights back and the quarantine it must have been about three thousand pounds.
Three thousand pounds.
Mm.
The dog is worth tuppence.
Oh I wouldn't he might be to you but  he's worth it to us .
Yes of course of course of course.
We love him he's thirteen years old so we we decided to get a a puppy because we thought we'd we wouldn't want to get one when he departs this world because you can never replace them.
So a friend of ours her Newfoundland got out and had a little erm foray with an Irish Water Spaniel.
An a Newfoundland?
Yes.
The head is going to be enormous.
I know I think we've actually shot ourselves in the foot here because I've never known anything like it.
I've never known a puppy like it.
It runs off with ornaments, it digs holes so deep you can't even see the puppy in the hole  all you can see is the earth coming out of the ground .
Runs off and it sulks and she sulks when you tell her off she just sulks she won't look at you she won't talk to you.
Now despite being Irish er and in fact maybe because of it it'll be a qui a very intelligent dog I should think .
Will it?
Oh yes I I mean the Irish Water Spaniel well well we got ours because I was told it was the most intelligent dog in the world.
Mind you she didn't read the book.
But there was a degree of intelligence and the Newfoundland of course is er spectacular dog, particularly in water I mean the Irish Water Spaniel's pretty good in water so as a 
Yes 
water dog you've got one second to none.
Well she she jumps in her water dish inside she jumps both paws in it.
Does she?
She picks it up and she tried to get in the bath with some of my daughters the other day.
And I but I've never she runs off with ashtrays and ornaments, remote control, pipe lighters.
Oh you'd better read the book.
Yes.
You'd better read my book.
Yes I think I should because a friend of mine said you'd written one I can't find a book actually I don't want a a proper book on breeding and all this sort of business I just want to know the character of these dogs  
Well is sounds like 
head of the game.
Ours was called Woolly Jump and she what she used to do she used to carry things into her den into er into er part of er a sort of little lobby that was all hers
Mm.
And we used to find extraordinary objects in there, flower pots and half bottle half empty bottles of wine.
Mm.
Erm any cups that the other dogs had won rosettes.
Mm.
Er biscuits a lot potatoes she was very keen on carrying potatoes 
Oh Well Irish I suppose they like potatoes 
Well yeah of course of course 
Yes.
And also erm a lot plumb stones because she used to raid the plumb tree.
Oh gosh 
So I if you read the book the book is called Woolly Jumper you can get it your at Cramwell, you can get it at Grantham.
Okay.
You can get is at Grantham and if you read and you'll see all the things that your dog is likely to carry into her ba has she got a basket?
Well she's got yes she got a she she sleeps in a in a special place but what she does is she's got a rug erm we've got a a rug in front of the fire here that we bought back from the States, and everything she finds that she likes she brings into the lounge and puts on the rug.
We have a basket where we keep all her toys and chewy things and she empties that out and brings everything from where that is and puts them all on this rug and consequently this rug I think she she has adopted as hers.
Ah well you know that's strange cos ours used to carry everything into her basket which and would 
No 
and sort of guarded and slept I don't I don't know how she slept because it must have been very uncomfortable.
Yes.
If you saw some of the things she had in there.
I know.
Well my Molly has just dug a hole so deep she's got into next door's garden fetch the Springer Spaniel from next door and brought it home to play with.
Oh dear has it?
Well ours used to bury bread in the garden.
Oh my goodness.
So they are diggers then?
Oh they're diggers I think they're diggers .
Oh oh dear.
Is it a nice a nice tempered?
She's beautiful she's absolutely lovely.
Any nice with people and other dogs?
Yes yes she's she she's great well she can't meet other dogs yet cos she's only nine week old.
Oh I see.
Erm.
Nine weeks old?
Mm.
And she's doing all these things?
Mm.
Never grows out of it.
She carries coffee cups off as well.
Yeah.
I used to know a Pekinese that used to er pinch everybody's flower pots everybo all over the neighbourhood.
I found out about it because we had a call onto into the radio station that somebody was pinching flower pots in this Long Eaton area.
And it turned out to be this Pekinese and when we went down there the lady was lovely and er we we interviewed her and we saw the Pekinese and we saw the Pekinese carry flower pots everywhere.
Yeah.
But some of them were as big as she was.
Oh my goodness.
So I mean
So when anybody wanted to repot a plant they just went round to this lady then did they?
That's right.
For the plant pot back.
She had flower pots everywhere there were flower pots.
Flower pot men.
Dogs can be very strange things but the Irish Water Spaniel and Newfoundland Cross gosh 
Yes yes.
A big 
Lady I got her from she's just getting the webs in between her feet and I thought then
You'll you'll never get her out of the water.
Er well that doesn't matter I don't mind that quite so much cos our bearded collie loves water.
I don't mind that and at least she'll have a shortish coat won't she?
Do they moult Irish Water Spaniels?
No they don't.
No.
But they get a bit of an oily coat.
But of course you're not quite sure at nine and a half weeks which one she'll go to most whether it will be the Newfoundland 
No.
or the Irish Water Spaniel .
Well she's she's got a lovely Spaniely head.
But it will be a big 
silky 
Yeah I know but it will be a big head when she's grown up.
Yes she's yes she's asleep on the sofa now, I'm looking at her and her paws are very large.
Yeah well there's an indication.
Yes.
How  er er sorry she's going to be enormous.
Is she?
She'll weigh er er I bet she weighs a hundred weight she'll weigh a hundred weight.
Oh gosh.
It's a big dog the Newfoundland.
I mean the Newfoundland 
It's a good job we've got a big car isn't it?
The Newfoundland will will jump into the into the water and will tow a boat I've filmed one towing a boat.
If ever you see Blue Peter
Yeah.
the er children's television show they they occasionally show a Newfoundland pulling a boat, well now that's the film that I made about ten years ago and this Newfoundland pulled in the boat .
My goodness me.
And you've got to be a big dog to pull in a boat.
Yes very very muscular big chest .
Well there you are.
Well you wanted it.
How  well no it was free to a good home it was please take it.
Oh dear what it?
Because it was the last one left and we didn't want to get another bearded collie because it would when our old bearded collie eventually goes we didn't want it to remind us too much so we said we'd go completely different.
Then this little lass turned up and so we said, Oh okay.
You should have bought an American dog with you something like a 
Well 
Chesapeake Bay Retriever or
Well that that's apparently what a Newfoundland and an Irish Water 
Yes.
Spaniel are crossed with.
Really?
Yes.
Chesapeake Bay Retriever .
They are apparently called Chesapeake Bay Retrievers although 
Mm Bit bit your's will be a bit bigger than the average Chesapeake Bay Retrievers .
How how big an Irish Water Spaniel then?
Well Irish Water Spaniel it's a sort of medium medium to large size dog.
Sort of smaller than a standard poodle?
Yeah yeah about the size of a standard poodle.
Mm.
There may well be standard poodle in the Irish Water Spaniel but the Newfoundland I mean is a big heavy dog.
Mm.
But lovely most beautiful expression and everything.
Really?
Oh you're in for some fun.
Er you get my book.
Okay I  
It will give you a warning as to what's to come.
Yes that's what I want.
Right.
Yes thank you for talking to me .
You can get it from Grantham.
Okay I'll go.
All right.
Okay thank you very much.
Bye.
Bye bye.
Eighteen years ago and number one for Telly Savalas, If.
We go to the news and after the news we'll meet Foster and Allen can I tell you collectors corner is full the feature we have at three thirty.
Foster and Allen after our classical piece to the news with Frank  orchestra and, I just called to say I love you.
You're listening to afternoon special it's three o'clock.
Radio Nottingham news with Rob Tomlinson.
Britain's prison service is facing a crisis of overcrowding according to its Director General, Derek Lewis.
Mr Lewis said the country was on the verge of having to use military camps, off loading prison and police cells to cope with the growing number of those being jailed.
Mr Lewis warned judges and magistrates who have been jailing offenders at an unprecedented rate, that pushing the service too far and too fast would create what he called unacceptable risks.
A man accu accused of raping a fellow student in college halls of residents has been acquitted at Norwich Crown Court.
The offence had allegedly been committed at Norwich City College by twenty one year old Matthew Kidd from Burnley in Lancashire.
Mr Kidd later refused to comment on calls for a change in the law to stop men being named in rape cases unless they're convicted.
Stuart Flinders was in court.
Matthew Kidd was accused of raping the eighteen year old student in his room at college.
The court had heard evidence that the woman making the accusation had been nominated slut of the year at the college a reputation she claimed was undeserved.
In his summing up Judge Hyam told the jury, you may come to the conclusion that the young woman was quite disturbed, craved affection and was quite able to tell untruths when it suited her.
The jury took just thirty five minutes to find Mr Kidd not guilty.
He left the court flanked by representatives from a national newspaper.
Speaking through his solicitor he refused to join the debate over the identification of defendants in rape cases.
A Nottingham body builder who subjected his girl friend to a campaign of sadistic mistreatment that included an attack with a hot iron had a three year jail sentence increased to four and a half years today.
Three appeal court judges headed by the Lord Chief Justice Lord Taylor ruled that the original sentence on twenty six year old Roger Bartley from Radford was unduly lenient.
Lord Taylor said the assaults on Donna King aged twenty six were not carried out in rage, they were coolly deliberate and inflicted by way of punishment.
A Nottinghamshire mining equipment company which went into receivership in September has been sold to the three men who founded the firm two decades ago.
The Dale Group which is based at New Houghton near Mansfield specializes in the design and installation of hydraulic mining systems.
Andy Hitchcock reports.
Dale's new owners, Sir David Guyler, Eric Dring, and Colin Speed who established the company in the early nineteen seventies it was taken over by the multinational Beaufort Group in nineteen eighty nine and by September this year the workforce had been cut from two hundred to just a hundred and ten.
Fifty more jobs went when the receivers were called in.
But Price Waterhouse say they are confident the original directors can run Dale at a profit.
They believe that despite the pit closures there's still a healthy demand for the firm's hydraulic mining systems which include lifting machinery, roof supports and face cutting equipment.
But the company's also diversifying and around thirty per cent of its current business involves designing large cylinders for cranes and fire engines.
The trial has begun at Preston in Lancashire of two eleven year old boys accused of killing the toddler James Bulger.
The boys are also charged with abduction and attempting another boy of two last February.
Both have pleaded not guilty and their trial is expected to last up to four weeks.
A radical plan to demolish the Commons' Chamber and rebuild it in the shape of a semicircle is being put forward by a Nottingham M P.
Labour's Graham Allen argues that the present physical shape of the Commons is old fashioned and not suitable for the requirements of a modern democracy.
He says that if the lobbies were knocked out MPs could have a semicircular debating chamber, electronic voting and a named desk each.
Mr Allen claims that the new surroundings would encourage more serious debate.
I believe we need to have a modern seating plan that allows and facilitates proper debate.
Now it won't cure all the problems I'm pretending that it will, but if we were to have proper seats, proper microphones, electronic voting I believe that it would show symbolically that the House of Commons was prepared to modernize itself and start doing a proper job in our democracy rather than the farce and the theatre which frankly turns so many people off in modern Britain.
The weather forecast now for Nottinghamshire.
All parts will stay dry today and although they'll still be a good deal of cloud for much of the time some bright or perhaps sunny intervals are possible.
The maximum temperature, nine degrees Celsius that's forty eight degrees Fahrenheit with a light to moderate easterly wind.
B B C Radio Nottingham news it's five minutes past three.
After our four o'clock news we'll have charity shop our chance to help others.
If you're an organizer for a charity or if you know someone who needs help in some way or indeed if you need help in some way, call us on Nottingham three four three four three four soon as possible and we'll put you on charity shop that follows the four o'clock news here on afternoon special.
That was Elgar's Pomp and Circumstance March number one that was and that brings you back to afternoon special on your favourite local radio station.
And er two very special guests to meet who've been here often before and they're always very welcome.
Er Foster and Allen are here and when I said that at the beginning of the programme it started a flurry of phone calls as to where they were.
Well they're appearing at the Royal Concert Hall in Nottingham tonight in concert, and then a week on Friday, November the twelfth they're at the Ritz at Lincoln so welcome back.
Thank you.
How are you?
Well I you you've got happy smiles on your face because 
Yeah.
you've gone and done it haven't you?
Number one 
number one in the video charts with the er new C D By Request.
Yes great news.
Are you are you chuffed?
We are yeah we had video at number three about three or four years back, and we thought that was great and we never dreamed of going any further up the charts you know so it's great that this one's gone to number one.
Yeah except look at the pair of you look at the pair of you singing these I mean look at these songs you're singing this is ridiculous.
What are you what are what are you singing are you singing things like erm like er, Oh Lonesome Me, Beautiful Dreamer these 
Thanks.
are old and tired songs a hundred years ago they were on the go.
Aha.
You can't sing them in nineteen ninety three and get away with it.
Are there any seats left tonight?
I'm afraid it's happening.
It's marvellous that it should be that way and and good that it should be that way too because you know the air waves seem to be full of very noisy songs at the moment that that jar a lot of people.
Mhm.
Er I'm not sure er er I'm sure there's a place for them you know and someone wants them that's lovely but we're not hearing enough really of the Beautiful Dreamers wouldn't you agree?
Well I think er yeah I definitely have to agree with you that we're not hearing enough of them but I suppose more and more now people are starting to to record you know a little bit more of the older stuff and I think what's happened on the pop scene that they've absolutely dried up as regards er creating new music you know and people are going into computerized music now and you know everything is played on the one machine and it's getting like a er I don't know it's as as if you don't really have to be a musician any more.
But I think er the old standards are so good and so strong you know we still get the odd good one coming out but the old ones were so good and so strong that even re-recorded with er even with the more modern I suppose er bit of arrangement  still the great sounds from the .
As Donna Cassidy who looks after all our recordings in Dublin says once a hit always a hit you know.
But what do you think has made this one so special the By Request C D and video and everything?
Well probably because er you know we try and keep up er er certain standard every year and er you know it's very important doing a video that you have the right songs for it, you know to get a story book set up for each song and this one we felt when we had it finished was probably you know the best we've done so far and lucky enough we've been proved right.
Are you comfortable with videos because we do hear a lot of artists who are not comfortable on video.
Well we are we like doing the videos because er in the early days we had a lot of problems I suppose with ourselves and with the video people because they had planned ideas for the songs.
You know we had recorded maybe about ten twelve maybe fifteen albums before we started doing videos.
Then all of a sudden these strange people started coming out of record companies who were involved in the video end of it and deciding this is what we should do with that song and sort of you know these were songs that we had planned and recorded and and all of a sudden these people were changing them.
So now what's happening is we're before we're doing an album we sit down and we pick out a lot of songs we decide right you know we need songs with good story books so the video is near enough planned with the recording of the song and it it's a lot easier for us and a lot more enjoyable enough a lot more enjoyable.
That's right and and to er er sort of fogies of my age it does seem a bit strange but these days the video and the recording have got to go together haven't they?
Oh absolutely yes very very important 
It's all to do with marketing.
It's all to do with marketing but then again it's all to do with the reason for that is I suppose that's what people want you know if they see a video er er if they watch a video on television and they listen to the song it has to add up you know, it can't just be a a story book of one thing and a song about another thing you know.
Presumably there's so many songs in your repertoire that you you've no need really to get a new one er you as artists might want to get a new one but you've got so many er evergreens I mean you could go on for ever with just the evergreens couldn't you ?
Oh yeah yeah and they they keep er actually this album the reason it's called I keep saying album  we keep going back to the days of vinyl  er the reason its called By Request over the last four of five years Telstar sent out a sort of feelers on different sleeves asking people if there were any songs that they might like to hear Foster and Allen sing.
And er you know about sixteen of the twenty two tracks on the C D are songs that people suggested.
Mm.
But what about new material cos as artists you'll want that as well won't you?
Yeah we have a little bit of new material, we always get every year you'll get about you know eight or ten good new songs that people write and the one good thing about the people who write for us is that the songs sound like they're they're old songs which is ideal you know.
So we try to get at least er three or four new songs in on every every .
Are there songs when when you er are in concert as you are tonight, are there songs that you could not miss out?
Oh yeah all the all the hits er like er Bunch of Time and and Maggie and Old Flames and after all these years, if didn't do those you'd be shot afterwards like but er what we do with the songs that that were like you know hit singles and that people really come to hear we make sure that you know that we do those and then we put in er you know what we think would be the favourite ones from albums and then we add in a sprinkling of the stuff from the new album so you know we give them a good cross-section for an hour and a half and then we have a good first half of the show as well we've got first half of the show as well and our band go on with him for forty minutes and er they perform as well a few soloists and er then Tony and myself come on and we do an hour and a half and we go right everything we do on stage we have recorded at some time, we don't do something that we haven't recorded.
But don't you test out material on stage?
Er no we don't not really because at this stage now as you said there's so many good standards out there you we would every year we would start off with about a hundred titles, work our way down to maybe fifty down to thirty and we'd end up recording about in fact this year we recorded thirty six songs and out of that we picked twenty two for the
Mm.
so there really isn't any need to to try them out you know.
Wherever you go there are communities of Irish.
Mhm.
The Irish have settled into this country and there are communities of them all over do they go and see your concerts and if they do that must mean a great deal to them I should think?
It  er there'd probably be second or third generation at this stage you know.
Most of the new people who'd be coming over in the last couple of years a lot of them wouldn't be coming out to our concerts yet because they would probably be into a more younger scene like the Mary Blacks, maybe or the Christian Moore or somebody like that you would be catering for a younger audience and the the second third generation would be coming out to the First to the Foster and Allens and the Daniel O'Donnells and the Brendan Shines you know.
But it would mean a great deal 
Oh I'm sure it would mean an awful lot to them and the fact that you're so successful coming out of Ireland would mean a lot to them as well you know and er er it's nice to be able to er you know to do that for them if they've been over here living for you know some of them have never been back maybe and some of them have never seen Ireland because maybe their their parents or their grandparents came from there.
But in in general most of our audience would be out and out British people you know.
Do the troubles in Ireland ever affect the concerts or ever affect you?
No thank God er nothing like that has ever affected er any of our shows any part of the world.
We've worked all over Australia New Zealand you know America and Canada and hasn't.
But presumably you you keep away from politics I mean 
Oh yeah 
Yeah a hundred per cent.
Absolutely no interest in politics whatsoever you know all they'd done it's you know it's sad to see things the way they are but it seems to be that with the world over at the moment so.
That's right.
You know and maybe it's just that that there're so many people out there with nothing to do and they just it's just a a boredom situation maybe I don't know.
When you if if you think about a country of song you might think of Wales, but anybody visiting Ireland will know that it's really Ireland's got to be a country of song because if you go there you've got to sing.
I mean you can't go to a pub without singing.
No that's true.
Cos I found out that the hard way.
You know I went and showed my dogs over there and afterwards we all went to the pub and we had one hell of a time and then I had to sing would you believe it?
They let you in without singing but you won't be let out.
That's right.
Yeah you know.
Absolutely right.
And you can't leave.
Why why does it have cos you think of Wales as the land of song why does it happen that if you go to Ireland you have got to sing?
Well of course the biggest social thing in Ireland is the pub and it's not I mean the Irish have a a name for being very heavy drinkers but in general they're not heavy drinkers they just spend a lot of time in pubs.
Er in most of them will er most people in Ireland will be in a pub at some stage of the day you know and it's no unusual thing to er we've got a recording studio in  we live or I live rather and it's not unusual to walk out the studio at er lunch time with some people you'd been recording and go into the pub for a lunch and if you weren't very careful you could still be there that evening singing
Mm.
and playing you know.
With people who'd be have nothing to do with the music business or just you know it's just the social er the social life you know.
But you must be erm erm you've obviously got to be Guinness addicted.
No 
No we're not.
We're not drinkers either.
Are you not?
No not really.
You don't drink Guinness?
No.
No.
But a Guinness a day you know.
Helps you 
Helps you on your way or something like that.
Helps you for to get out of play.
Oh does it?
With me it would if I if I even had one drink going on stage, I'd be terrified.
You know people say to us do you suffer from nerves going on stage and we don't, not even in the slightest.
But if I had one drink of any description that's the one thing that would make me nervous because I'd be afraid that I'd forget this or forget the other, so we just don't have them at all you know.
I would never go out like what Tony was saying you know he doesn't drink at all and like he'd be in a pub maybe seven days a week but I would take a drink now and again and I mightn't go into a pub once in a month maybe.
But you're breaking the whole image of the Irish now.
Well that's what I'm saying about the image of the drinking er I guarantee you could as you know as you say you could be in a pub all afternoon all evening all night with maybe twenty people having a music session and ten of them mightn't be drinking at all.
That's true?
I mean I've been in more pubs than I'd say longer than most people who drink a lot and er you know it's just be I think music and and song is the big addiction in Ireland not the drink but because er it it the chances of a music session starting in a pub is just you know the chances are that it probably will at some stage of the day.
Well last time I was in er Dublin I er went from the pub straight to the airport and someone stuck a bottle of whiskey in my pocket just as I was going through customs, I didn't believe it could happen but it happened in Ireland.
Oh yeah no problem and as Tony was saying music sessions they tend if the session is good to forget about closing time you know official closing time.
But a few years ago we were at a session in a pub one night erm playing music and er there was about twenty of us and about two o'clock in the morning the police raided it and we all had our names taken and we were all up in court and we were all fined I think three pound for being er drinking after hours and Tony was drinking a cup of coffee.
Oh were you?
It's not many people you get fined three quid for drinking a cup of coffee 
No.
after hours.
At least I probably got the coffee for nothing.
Yeah.
So it goes on and on and on and presumably it will go on for ever.
Well hopefully yeah.
It will go on for another while anyway we hope.
Yeah I mean as long as people want you.
Oh 
Yeah.
absolutely we have no no intention of stopping and er 
We'll be hear as long as they want us.
But surely it it's happened that it's getting er and and I touch wood I don't know how superstitious you are but it's getting better and better and better for you each time because when you came here ooh some years ago since you first came into this studio er you were pretty popular then but it seems to increase all the time doesn't it?
Yeah I think it it's it's been coming on a sort of er you know we we we tour here twice a year every year and we release an album every year at this time and a video, so it's for all the people who like that type of music they know it's going to be there and they come out to see us all the time you know and er as you say it goes on and on but lucky enough there is an awful lot of material for us to do and you know there shouldn't be any problem.
It seems that the career is well managed.
You know because we often talk to artists and we ask you know how it happened and and most of them say like topsy it just grew er that that there's no planned career but with you with the tours er set and the album set it it seems to be more of a controlled career with you two.
Well it is it's it's planned pretty well as you know we we always take the summer off we never work during the summer because we do our recording and we make our video and then we're ready for the road and the video's released and there's promotion put into it so er if we go to Australia which we'll go on our next May and June you know it's a good time out there for selling product as well so we will have an album released before we get out there and and everything will be planned out.
Is it strange going thousands of miles away to Australia and finding out that you're as known there as you are on this island?
Er it wouldn't have been so bad you know because we when we set out first it was just you know to be successful at home and then we were successful over here and that was you know was the serious big surprise.
After that you know surprises weren't as big and er it just worked out that you know the particular market that we're into was neglected here and then apparently it was neglected in Australia because we had Maggie you know a number one hit in Australia before we went out.
So then it went on from there to Canada so it just worked out or appeared to work out that right around the world at that particular time ten or eleven years ago, that nobody was bothered and as you said the Beautiful Dreamers and this sort of stuff until we came along and er but other than that we would be surprised.
After getting on Top of the Pops you know the kind of music we play, nothing would surprise us any more I don't think.
Well what was it like being on Top of the Pops surrounded by
well let's say er music of a more noisy nature?
Strange.
Different anyway.
Yeah Bob Geldof and the Boom Town Rats they were on that and  
Were they?
Dexy's Midnight Runners yeah so it was there were a few other weird names that I didn't that I'd never heard before or since.
And the  dance band they were actually number one that night and I don't think they've ever been heard since you know.
Yeah.
Oh were they I rather like those 
Yeah.
They weren't too noisy were they?
No and there was a gay fire eater, the lead singer was eating fire that night as well there was guys with these er fire hoses all round just  in case.
Yes yes.
You've never had to eat fire to get 
No no no.
Not yet.
No.
Not yet.
But you were saying about er Australia and that I I think at that particular time more so than now whatever was happening in the British pop scene seemed to just happen all over the world you know.
I think it might it might change a bit now it seems to be more American now especially in Australia all the music the current music in Australia that's being played seems to be coming in from America.
What about America with you, the American scene with you?
Er recordwise it never happened and does never seem to happen but we can go to America and work in the Irish centres and the Irish clubs and be an Irish band but er the way we could come over here and do a concert to people in general, it doesn't I think the radio situation in America for years was al always very if you were folk you played in folk programme, if you were country you'll play in the country prog whereas here in Britain there's one great thing with the radio system, people tend to play whatever you know if it's easy listening programme they play whatever is is nice and easy listening you know.
But it's rather surprising that isn't it cos er a a lot of these er songs that you sing actually came from America.
Well they did a lot of them are actually country songs that were like Old Flames and and even the Black Sheep was was an American song which we you know and yes you know if you send them back to America, Old Flames for instance is often back on the American  those that played on the Irish programme.
Yet they played the country version by Dolly Parton on the country programme you know.
Are you happy to sing the songs that you sing?
Oh yeah I I both of us would would be always recording and singing what we like ourselves you know.
But has there ever been any effort to by management or by anyone at all to change you and say, Okay you've proved you can sing let's update it let's get a faster beat anybody ever said that to you?
Erm not really you know maybe in an out of the way way they might but you know the type of musicians we are or whatever, you know we can do say I can do all the Irish stuff the up tempo rousing songs I can play Irish and Scottish dances and that kind of stuff, then Tony can do right across the board with easy listening stuff and country stuff and even one of the tracks on our new C D is er is er well what I would term a pop song.
What the Dire Straights song?
Yeah and er you know we can do a certain amount but I think if you went away from that you can go away from it a little bit but I think if you went too much away the people that you have and and our audience when we've got them you know, they tend to stay with us you know they don't change like the the youngsters and when we started off first you know our audience were mainly over forty five fifty plus really and now they're down to we're getting you know loads of of people in their twenties and in their teens and even down to kids like last night, five and six years old.
So you know our audience are are getting bigger from what we're doing so it wouldn't make any sense to
I also thinking about what we're going to do is we would end up sounding like a Foster and Allen song anyway you know not deliberately but I think you know by the time we'd have have by the time we do the way we'd be able to do it it would sound like Foster and Allen.
But surely at the beginning when you two came along, the record industry must have thrown up their hands in horror and said, Well you know this this won't sell you won't sell any records this this is finished.
Well I think we were very lucky at the start that  were were just starting up in England and they were actually more into what we were doing than er to the extent that I think that maybe other record companies might have laughed at them and said they've no hope of surviving but I mean they had the Furies with er Sweet Sixteen and then they had er about six hit singles from Foster and Allen and about six or seven albums and then they went down to Daniel O'Donald which became an enormous success so I think when that happened then all record companies kind of said well maybe there is something here.
So when we went to Stylus Records and Telstar you know they were more than than happy to have  because they seemed but I think that at at the start had we been looking for somebody here to take us over probably it would never have happened.
Was it slow at the beginning?
Erm
When you first got together?
Not too bad we we got well we had been together near enough since we left school but you know we decided to have a go at it seriously in in seventy five and then we recorded an album and a single in say seventy seven, seventy eight.
But then in seventy nine we had a hit at home with Bunch of Time and that as far as we were concerned was the end of the road you know to be successful in Ireland and then late eighty one, early eighty two you know they started playing Bunch of Time over here and it became a top twenty hit for us and that you know changed the whole thing round about and got us from say the pubs in Ireland into the concert circuit in England which we've been doing ever since.
I it's a lovely record Bunch of Time isn't it?
Wonderful song still goes down as good as ever and I have to say we still get the same buzz out of singing it every night.
Do you really?
I do yeah absolutely as as as the first few times we did it you know.
So how do you try a new song because you said that you won't necessarily try and do a song out on stage.
Mhm.
So how do you try a new song to make sure that it blends that it's what you want to do that it's different how do what where do you try if you don't try on stage?
Er well we would we would record them and and that would be it you know but we would have a fair idea when we'd be recording the album like that you know there's always be a place in a Foster and Allen programme for a Beautiful Dreamer so if you get a sound that's pretty close to that there'll always be a place for a an up tempo sound that that Mick would do so you have to sort of pick ones with a good story line and a good melody and again that you can work a good video round you know.
Do you still work in Ireland?
No we actually didn't work for about six years until this year we did a concert tour of Ireland just before we came over here.
How did that go?
It was great and probably would have been with the exception of the video going to number one, it probably would be the highlight of our career cos we'd been out of hadn't been working in Ireland for six years and we were back in and did a sell out concert tour and I think that was really good.
But before that before the sell out concert tour in Ireland, did you ever think I wonder what they'll think of us back home I wonder if we'll still do it?
We we did we were lucky enough to be in the position that we were working out of Ireland we were making a living without having to work in Ireland.
We still did television shows there and did all our recording there and made all our videos.
But er even if it didn't work we well it wouldn't be the end of the line financially for us but at the end of the day I think you know we've always wanted to know we could go back and do that you know.
And you've proven that that you can do that .
I think that's worked yeah.
That's lovely.
All right tonight then Foster and Allen at the Royal Concert Hall in Consett and we think you can get some tickets 
This morning yeah.
This morning it went to number one this is tremendous news and from it we're going to have A Hundred Children.
Now this has been selected to help Children in Need.
Yeah this is another little erm I suppose an added bonus as well to Foster and Allen.
We when we got the song first and recorded we we were talking one day and we were just saying it would be an ideal song for Children in Need you know so we decided that we'd er donate all the proceeds from this track on the video and album and the concert in Stockport, it's tomorrow night isn't it?
Aye tomorrow night .
All the proceeds from that is going to Children in Need as well.
That's marvellous.
Thank you very much indeed Tony and Mick Foster and Allen Mick and Tony Foster and Allen.
And here's the record A Hundred Children don't forget the er the C D By Request it's it's just out and it got to number one this morning in the video charts.
Bless you both of you.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
One Hundred Children sung there by Foster and Allen er by Mick and Tony our guests this afternoon and that's from the By Request C D and the By Request video went number one this morning.
So we were the first to have them after they get number one.
Two lovely lads I'll tell you and that concert tonight going to be er absolute corker it's at the Royal Concert Hall tonight in Nottingham.
And on November the twelfth that's a week on Friday they're at the Ritz at Lincoln in Consett.
Right let's have collector's corner if you can help anyone on collector's corner call please Nottingham three four three four three four.
You have to dial the code O six O two if you're ringing from outside the Nottingham area and if you ring us please have pen and paper with you cos we'll give you a number to ring back.
So collector's corner, Brian Simpson of Hinckley on first what it is you want?
Hello I'm after a zither.
A zither?
There you are and I know what you're going to say  
We had one the other day.
Yeah Thursday.
But you're joking you know how many calls we took for it?
No.
Over a hundred and twenty.
Well I rather gathered that because erm erm I I actually run a German band a Bavarian band
Yes.
And I've been after a zither for a long long time  
How much are they?
Some of them more than that one was advertised for.
But they said a hundred quid but it was about eighteen ninety wasn't it?
I don't know I didn't get er I didn't get that far.
Well yes I mean it's it's got to be worth a hundred quid or more .
amazed I actually did erm what happened erm I was happened to be upstairs and my wife shouted quick quick there's a zither, so I zoomed down here and the lady was still talking to you and a dialled well consequently I didn't get through for quite some time but I did eventually, erm your lady on the reception said well it's gone now she said but I will give the lady's telephone number and I spoke to the lady and told her the position and she says well if it's not collected by so time I'll g ring you back and I said well I've been after one for a long long time she said well I can't understand it cos I've been advertising it.
So I said well not in my area you haven't.
Mm.
But I mean it was a er it I'm sure it was an eighteen nineties zither .
I don't know I don't know it it sounded nice a few points she did on it and er
Really?
I can't play one personally but I do have a lady in my band who's who can, very very good accordion player who assures me she can play a zither as well you see.
But how do you learn a zither I mean nobody gives zither lessons do they?
I don't think anybody had ever heard of one until we had Shirley  turn up.
Well Anton Carrus.
Oh well Anton Carrus yeah in the Third Man .
In the Third Man.
Yeah.
Anyway let's try and get you a zither you'll pay and collect?
Yes yes certainly.
All right Brian.
Right see you bye.
Hang on a minute your Bavarian band.
Oh yes yeah.
Where are you appearing at this week?
Erm Royal Air Force Wittering.
Royal Air Force Wittering.
Aha yes.
How long's your er concert go on for?
We shall be there until about midnight I would say.
From eight o'clock.
Mm around that time.
Four hours of it.
That's right.
We we do three spots.
How much lager do you devour in a 
Well as daft as it seems Dennis as you probably know in this sort of game you're on the roads very late at night and when you're on the roads very late at night, you get a lot of bored policemen
Yeah.
and consequently we do get stopped and quite frankly without giving too many trade secrets away 

Well now James, what can we do for you ?
Oh  
Not so bad.
Not so bad.
I feel a bit sad.
I'm my daughter's taken me hol me away for a holiday.
Erm 
Mhm.
a holiday down in .
And 
Mhm.
my line's not due till the twenty sixth of July.
That's alright.
Twenty six of July it's due Doctor .
Well no problem.
So I'll leave it with my other daughter.
She can't post it  
No no no.
Se send it in John.
Send it in?
Aye just send it 
Twenty sixth of July it's due.
Aye.
You know that's a year off now you know.
Yeah.
Due on twenty six 
Twenty six of July, yes.
July ninety three.
Ah no no terrible worry about that Jim.
No?
No no no no no .
Sometime you know they they
Och aye it's not.
I just send it in, there'll be no problem then.
No problem, no no.
The thirteenth of the seventh, ninety three.
There we are.
Right.
You just send that, just send that in to 
But could you give me some Er can you give me some Zantac Doctor?
Some Zantac?
Give me a bottle because I  during the holidays .
Well you shouldn't you shouldn't need of that stuff down there.
.
Aye well that's
Well I don't take   you know 
Yeah.
Just a wee break.
Actually .
She says .
Well it's nice it's a nice part of the world.
Yes it i somewhere it's nice Doctor, it is.
But er Torquay's
A bit hilly
Aye
Too hilly for me 
Not for us, not for us.
No.
No.
Not for you.
No.
It's er and it's like it's not a nice place anyway.
I think Paigns I've a feeling Paignton's  far nicer.
Paignton's far nicer.
And 
Yes yes I heard that Doctor.
Torquay used to used to be a lovely place.
Everything was kept absolutely perfect.
Aha.
Palm trees and the
Yes.
the the railings were always painted and all the houses were beautifully kept and And now mm.
Was it
Has it?
Aye.
It's a shame.
You know, I was there in nineteen nineteen fifty.
Were you?
And I I mean it was absolutely gorgeous.
Everything, the railings you know, when they put when they painted the railings, the burned the old paint off, the new paint on .
Ah yes yes yes yes yes.
Now, old paint just straight on top 
Aye.
It just it looks terrible.
I may go through for a day you know.
Aye Och.
.
It's not it's not worth it.
It's not worth that 
Ah well.
even.
Ah well.
can go through.
Aye they can let them let  them go  
let them go .
There's a good ice cream shop.
Oh I like ice cream.
Oh I like ice cream.
I'm I'm very partial to ice cream.
Yes I I must say that.
I like ice cream.
Well thank you very much Doctor.
Eh, well there's a good ice cream shop there.
Away you go then.
Away you go them Jimmy.
And I'll .
Aye I'll .
Okay?
Thank you then.
Look after yourself.
Right Jim.
Bye bye .
Cheerio now.

Okay  now if I write something down     
write an essay about 
when you, when you pass not if
Yeah.
When you pass.
Erm right I'll just write this down.
Okay if you'd like to try that.
Add that up.
six point eight plus 
nought point O two.
Good yeah that's great.
Right that's brilliant I think you can both do decimals.
yeah that's very good I mean a lot of
We done them in second year.
a lot of sixteen year olds are still having trouble with decimals like that and they're adding them in the wrong place.
What is the most important point when you're adding decimals?
Keep the decimal in a line.
Keep the decimal in a line.
That's it line that up and you can't go wrong.
Right who wants to tell me what a pie chart is?
It's a chart in the shape of a circle.
In the shape of a circle.
And why do we bother doing one?
So  it      it can show you things how m many one piece and 
Okay have you got anything to add to that?
It's like fractions, it's like  
Right yes it's like fractions it can show you things and it can show you it as a sort of fraction.
Erm 
on your computer okay.
What sort of things have you seen pie charts used for?
In my maths in school we just finished them on the last day.
We erm had a 
Right.
but it just shows it erm twelve hours of a baby's life.
And we had a round pie chart and it was split into all different hours.
Okay.
So was it split into 
twelve sections for the twelve hours?
No it was just the round circle and that was twelv 
That was, that was twelve hours and and how was that 
Yeah we put twenty four hours and then coloured in half 
Okay so you had twenty four hours all the way round 
Right okay erm what other things could you use a pie chart for?
In geography we had one because erm there was a farmer and what he does and there's like a big section for sleeping, a smaller s section for eating
Okay.
and the cleaning the pigs and stuff like that.
Right so you can use it for almost anything to show but it, it's showing it as a fraction of the whole thing.
So it might be a fraction of a day a fraction of twelve hours a fraction of one hour.
Erm a fraction of money is another  thing they use it for.
Erm how much pocket money do you get, about three hundred and sixty each?
one pound 
I don't really get pocket money but if I see something in the shops in, in, this toy or something my mum, mum'll buy it for me and say that's your pocket money for this week.
Okay so let's say if you got three pound sixty a week pocket money.
Why do I pick three pound sixty or three hundred and sixty pennies?
Any ideas?
Cos three hundred and sixty is a full turn.
Right three hundred and sixty degrees.
So if we drew a pie chart how many degrees would be the same as one penny?
One.
Are you happy with that?
Do you know, do you know about three hundred and sixty degrees goes all the way round?
Ah okay when we do pie charts we're measuring angles aren't we?
You, we're doing fractions if you like so you could draw a half and that would be a half of three hundred and sixty.
Half of all the way round so how many would that be?
Erm
What's half of three sixty?
One pound eighty.
Right and it'd be a hundred and eighty degrees all the way round and that would represent one pound eighty if three hun three pound sixty was all the way round.
And what about a quarter of the way round, what would that be?
Do you know how to divide three sixty by four?
Quite a big number could you divide thirty six by four?
How many fours in thirty six?
Okay?
Could you have done, could you do half of thirty six?
Mm.
Okay what would half of thirty six be?
Eighteen.
And then what would half of eighteen be?
It's er eight is it 
Nine.
Nine.
Nine so we're looking at three hundred and sixty.
Trying to divide it by four.
Well that's a bit awkward so pretend it's thirty six times ten.
Leave the ten alone we'll bring that back in later.
Half of thirty six would be eighteen.
So half of three sixty could be eighteen times ten.
Half of eighteen is nine so half of one eighty would be nine times ten so ninety degrees is a quarter of a turn a quarter of the way round.
And er  look at, look at these again
In school we didn't really do the actual pie charts but we used compasses.
Yeah.
To measure angles.
We had all different kinds of  
One of these to make an angle?
Yeah.
Yeah that's a protractor.
Protractor that's it.
Protrac have you seen one of those, have you used one?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right that's for measuring angles so we could measure these angles before we s before we start on the money
Yeah.
where it all goes to.
Perhaps we could just have a look at what sort of angles we've got here.
So let's say  that that represented your, your three pound sixty, the complete circle.
And you spent quite a bit of it, that, say on sweets.
Okay so you could draw that and you'd draw the same angle and we could measure that angle  see what it is.
Well what fraction is that?
A third.
Third.
So what angle, anyone, Claire have a guess at what angle that will be or how would wor how would you work out what angle that is?
How did we work out what a half was?
It's erm divide  thirty six by three and then  
Right so we divide thirty six by three and what does that come to?
Tw 
Twel 
twelve.
Twelve.
So three hundred 
And you times that by ten.
So that would be?
One hundred and twenty.
One hundred and twenty.
So a third of this should be a hundred and twenty and we just measure that and see.
Yes it does come to a hundred and twenty well that's good.
I'd be looking a bit daft if it didn't .
A quarter should be ninety.
Well that's the angle on the
Ninety.
square or a rectangle isn't it that's ninety degrees no need to check that really we can see that's ninety.
It's ninety.
What about this one?
What fraction is that?
A sixth.
Sixth.
And what angle will it be?
How will we work out the angle?
Sixty?
Sixty yeah  
Right good sixty.
How did you do it?
Divide thirty six by six is six and times it by ten.
Right so that's sixty and what's this fraction?
A twelfth.
Twelfth.
And what will that be?
Mm a twelfth.
What, what, what angle will it be?
A twelfth.
So how many twelves in thirty six?
Three.
Three.
So that's going to be three times ten that'll be?
Thirty.
Thirty.
Thirty degrees.
We'll just check that see if it's right.
Yeah that's fine.
Okay you have to get the point just on 
Yeah.
the hole there.
Measure that and have a look and it comes just on the thirty.
Yeah.
Okay.
So we could do thirds, sixth, quarter, twelfth, we could do a half.
What would a half be again?
What angle would a half be?
Half of three sixty.
One eighty.
Okay one eighty.
Right so let's decide how we're going to spend, what I'd like you to do, erm what sort of things do you spend your pocket money on?
Sweets.
Sweets.
Is that what you spend most of it on probably?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay so sweets.
What else do you spend your pocket money on?
Sometimes if I see little, a little or little toys for my brothers 
So presents okay presents for other people.
Anything else?
Anything else you spend your money on?
Save it up.
Save it okay so saving is some of it and anything else?
like little rubbers 
Okay the rubbers.
Stationery.
Stationery good word.
How do you spell stationery?
Can you both write that down.
When it means pens and pencils and papers and rubbers and 
Okay now what have you got there?
I don't think that's right.
Why don't you think that's right?
Mm, what do you think Kelly?
Do you think that looks right?
No.
No.
Okay what do you think about Claire what do you think of  Kelly's does that look better?
Yeah.
Can you both spell station?
Okay that's station.
do you want to swap back ?
You can both write station.
There are lots of words are built up from other words aren't they?
Station and now underneath that write stationery.
That's it.
That's fine now that's how you spell stationary if something's not moving okay.
The wheels were stationary.
With an A.
It's not moving but when it's papers and pencils and stuff like that
Is it E?
Exactly yeah it's stationery with an E.
So write that one and then later on when I've gone if you can make up some sentences with stationary and stationery.
We both just say stationary so you can't tell by the sound of it how you spell it?
If you could make up a sentence with those.
So stationery is one of the things so we've got erm  what else might you spend money on?
Okay so I, what I'd like you to do now is both write down if you had three pound sixty a week, how much would you spend on sweets, on presents, on stationery and how much would save 
I'd save most of mine.
So both write down you'd save most of it.
What half of it or more than half or?
Half of it
Okay.
Well write, write down how much you'd save and how much you'd spend on sweets, how much you'd spend on presents, how much on stationery.
Spend   on sweets   
So how much would you spend on sweets?
One pound on sweets okay.
I spend sixty pence on sweets.
Sixty pence on sweets okay and say say what you're spending that on, on sweets okay.
And what about presents and stationery?
Both make your own mind up what you'd want to do.
And how much would you spend on presents?
Mm?
You wouldn't spend any.
Okay that's fine you put presents none.
Does it have to be a  exact amount
Just what you 
what you think you'd 
on presents
presents 
Okay.
But if I'm up at the shop and I see a little card or something 
Okay.
About a pound.
Okay.
And would you spend anything on stationery?
Yeah.
Okay and have you added yours up?
Just put total, good, that's good.
stationery right.
So if you'd like to add them up now see what you've got.
Is that one pound?
Yeah.
Mm.
So  adds up very nicely to three sixty and Kelly spent more than she had.
So you've got to, you'll have to change something won't you?
Ninety pence  
Okay ninety pence yeah that's a good one.
So ninety, ninety pence on the, on the presents there.
change that one there.
So  we'll draw a pie chart now which one shall we do first?
Whose shall we do first?
Claire's
Okay we'll do Claire's first.
The first thing we need it as a circle.
Mark the centre of it  go all the way round with that.
Now  what fraction are you s are you going to save?
S save a half of it.
Yeah so it's a hundred and eighty degrees.
A hundred and eighty out of three hundred and sixty you could save a half of it.
Well that's no problem.
Could you d would you like to draw   Would you like to draw half?
Okay.
Just write save?
Write save in there.
Now what's your next thing that you're going to do?
Sweets.
Sweets one pound so  one hundred out of three sixty.
So that's a hundred degrees out of three hundred and sixty degrees.
Now if you can mark off a hundred degrees.
You know how to use the protractor?
Yeah.
Good.
Now where's, where's the hundred?
Ah okay what we usually do is make sure it's not upside down.
And on this one there's a nought on the inside and a nought on the outside so we work with the nought on the outside and we'll go round that way, clockwise, the way the numbers go.
Yeah.
Nought ten twenty thirty forty.
Okay so we start from nought and go round.
So where are we going to, where are you going to put it?
Down here say.
Do don't be afraid to turn your paper round.
So make sure that dot  is on the centre there.
Is it on the c let's have a look.
Let's get that in there.
Okay and then you can move it round to line it, is that lined up okay?
Yeah  
Where you are?
Yeah.
Okay and then on the outside  circle there we mark a hundred degrees.
Okay and  join that one up.
And then
With this part this bit?
Ah well  have a guess.
Can you remember how much ninety degrees is?
Ninety degrees is that nice square angle you found on a 
A right angle.
square or a rectangle.
special name for it as Kelly says 
a right angle, right.
So that must be the hundred and that must be the eighty.
So  that's for sweets  and what's this for?
Good and you've both spelt it correctly stationery.
Okay so that's Claire's  chart.
That shows, so you can look at that and you can see how she's spending her money.
But it doesn't tell you.
It just  unless you've actually got a protractor.
Doesn't doesn't tell you how much 
Much you spend.
No but it's still helpful like that cos you can see, well it looks as if , without measuring it accurately, it looks as if she spends half of it  she actually saves half of it.
Okay.
so it looks as if she saves half of her money  and then spends a bit more than a quarter.
Out of what's left a bit more than half of what's left goes on sweets and a bit less than half goes on stationery.
So even if you didn't have a protractor, I mean if you wanted to be really fussy and find out exactly you could measure it and say, ooh that's actually, it's not eighty that's seventy nine and this is a hundred and one so she spends a pound and a penny on sweets and she saves seventy nine.
You don't normally need to get it that accurately do you?
You just want a quick glance at it to see what she, oh well half of it's saved and then a bit more than a quarter.
is it  probability
Yes.
guess yeah that's it.
Guess okay.
A bit more than a quarter on sweets and a bit less than a quarter on stationery.
And if you wanted to find out exactly you could measure it.
Now somewhere on there we should say what the total is because we could look at this and we could say, well she saves erm half of it but does she, how much does she get?
Well perhaps she only gets two pence a week pocket money and she saves one penny.
Or perhaps she gets two hundred pounds a week pocket money right?
Or two million pounds a week pocket money.
We don't know so I think lea at least you need the total on.
And I know it's not, not saying there's anything wrong with it, just hadn't got round to writing it.
So we could say total, total is three pound sixty or something like that.
Just write total.
Yeah total is three pound sixty.
Right so do you want to have a go at doing your one Kelly?
Okay.
And oh we'll ask your dad what sort of computer he's got.
I save about a half of it.
Okay 
Hi.
Hello Claire says she's been doing pie charts on your computer.
Yes it's only a, it's a Amstrad.
Er what sort is it?
I B M compatible?
No it's not no.
It's the original one which was er what was it called?
Six One Two Eight Plus.
It's, it's only got a three inch disk drive on it.
Ah it hasn't got three and a half it's the Amstrad three inch?
Yeah.
Okay.
Are you doing pie charts, what are you doing that on?
Right .
Because I've got some stuff for I B M compatible that she could play with.
I'm looking to upgrade it soon so
Mm.
hopefully it'll be alright then 
Don't  I mean don't, don't buy it just for this it's just that if you had it handy
Yeah.
it's a shame not to use it.
But er
I'm goin I'm gonna upgrade it for business you know.
You can't get no software for the Amstrad it's really hard to come by.
It is, it is.
There is some very cheap stuff about for things like the Fifteen Twelve and Sixteen Forty.
Mm the P C Ws then?
Erm no the P C rather than the P C the P C W is just a, a dedicated word processor that's all it does.
But  very good sort of cheap way into computers.
We couldn't load save it could we?
Okay well she's just working out how she'd spend three pound sixty pocket money 
Very easily I would think.
No she's going to save half of it.
Oh yes please er black no sugar 
before I 
Right you're a bit stuck.
So let's see how, how is it going.
What, see what, see if Claire can help.
Let's sh explain to Claire what you're doing and  
Right.
I think I'm right but I'm not sure.
Well that's the your nought isn't it?
Mhm.
And then  that was right.
Right good.
And then I needed my ninety pence
Right.
for my present so
Ah okay right.
do I go from that nought or that nought?
Don't mark the nought on.
Now this is, this is very, this is very good, this the reason you're stopping here because  have you done bearings?
No you probably wouldn't have done but you'll do
Yeah I had a homework sheet.
Okay we'll have a look at bearings as well while we're doing the, see you can see how fractions, angles and pie charts and bearings and lots of things all come together and if you understand  the main part of it then you can, you can learn all the other things by yourself.
And when you see them you can think, ah that would be same as what I was doing in that one, and you can work it out for yourselves.
So yeah don't, you don't need the nought there but it was good thinking you put it in, putting it in.
Erm it's just ninety degrees from here or from there depends on where you want to put it.
So you've got one mark there okay?
Okay well you could take it from here and take it round that way.
But it'd be simpler to keep taking it round clockwise.
So
So where should I  it from?
Well if it was me to keep it balanced I usually put the bigger ones near the bottom or on one side so that the small bit are at the top and the big bits are at the bottom and artistically it looks a bit better balanced but it doesn't really matter for the maths where you put it.
So shall I keep from there and just do the ninety there?
Well you can't do it from there because that would mean you're spending 
you've got one ninety pence here and you're spending ninety pence of it on one thing and sixty pence of the same money on another thing.
So it would have to start 
from where the last one finished each time.
to 
to ninety 
ninety 
to ninety 
Ninety.
ninety from there    
Okay and then if it all adds up  how much should you have left over?
Thirty 
Yeah.
Okay.
Well that was easy wasn't it eh?
No problems there for either of you so let's make it awkward.
Now you don't really get three pound sixty do you Claire?
How much do you get?
A pound but I get 
A pound so let's say you just get a pound.
And let's say erm  let's say you get one pound fifty Kelly.
I know you don't, don't have a definite pocket money well let's say you get one pound fifty.
So  so we look at Claire's pound now.
What I want you to do is try and work out if you spent the same, not the same amount of money but
The same sort of thing.
You spent  the same
Erm 
same
Try and get the same fractions  
Good the same fraction.
So what was happening here you were saving half of it.
Right?
So I'd save fifty pence yeah.
So you'd save fifty pence.
And then you'd have fifty hundredths and it's still look like a half.
So if you kept these same ratios  same fractions  even if you got ten pound or a hundred pounds or ten pence it would still look like that.
The only thing that would change would be the total at the top.
Don't forget to put the total on it.
Total  the total is 
Claire.
three pound sixty.
Yeah?
Are you stuck.
Oh well you  do have to stay out there sorry .
Okay.
No sugar.
That, that's great thanks very much.
So that's for total pocket money  three hundred and sixty.
. Got an have we got another mat?
We'll take that mat out of the way   So what if you did get a pound, if you did get a pound  Claire would you, would you still save half of it or do you think you might save a bit less than half?
A bit less.
Okay I'd like you to, if, if you work out Kelly one pound fifty.
If you, if you had one pound fifty how much you'd spend on these different things.
Okay?
And Claire if you work out if you had a pound how much you'd spend  on each different one just as you did here.
I mean you might decide you won't save anything if you only got a pound or you won't buy any presents or you won't buy any sweets.
Give up sweets for Lent or something.
Make it easy for us.
Ah  go on.
Now can you see the way Claire's setting it out?
So that all her figures are going to be all in one column so you can check them easily, you can add them up easily, you can find the total.
This is very nice the way you've written it out.
You would save fifty pence and then
Or you can just yeah you can just use the sort of line you can see through there.
Erm  you could just, you don't need to write, it's very nice writing you don't need to write it all out now you could put spending and a colon  right and then, or I would spend colon 
Shall I just put a line ?
Oh no no leave, leave that erm you could just write sweets and how much would, just keep the figures underneath each other cos it makes it easier to follow.
Sweets.
Well there's a bit of changing and messing about here to get it just right innit?
Right  this time you'd save forty P.
Erm is that  presants ?presents.
Prese it's awkward this spelling but it's, it's presents.
Okay?
Now I'd like you to have a think about them as fractions.
Forty pence out of a pound what would that, roughly is it about half or about a quarter or what?
About  nearly a half.
Right so it's a bit less than a half.
And what about ten P out of a pound?
A tenth.
Right.
Okay well that looks as if that adds up nicely.
Ooh lovely that's lined up.
That was strange starting to add up from the centre you don't usually do that.
No.
Okay that's good that adds up now what sort of fraction, what sort of fraction are you spending on stationery?
Fifty pence out of one pound fifty is that  about a tenth or about a hundredth or about half or what, what sort of fraction?
A third.
Do you agree?
A half.
Fifty pence
Fifty pence out of one fifty.
A third
Yeah you're both happy with a third.
Yeah 
You were thinking fifty pence in a half of a pound.
Right
I knew I had three fifty pence okay.
So that's how much Kelly's got to spend.
Three of those and she spends one of them
she spends one of them on stationery and she saves one of them.
So she's spending a third on stationery, she's saving a third and the other third has got to be split up between
Sweets and presents.
presents.
Erm thirty pence out of a hundred and fifty, any idea of what that would be  fraction?
mm
What do you think?
Yeah it's a fifth.
How did you work it out?
If you're dealing with big numbers
it's quite hard isn't it?
Okay how do you, how would you do it?
Five times three is fifteen times it by ten.
Right so the first thing you do if we're dealing with a hundred and fifty.
Well that's a bit big that's not in any of my times tables.
Let's forget about the
Mm.
hundred and fifty forget about that nought and just think about the fifteen.
When we've worked that out don't forget to put the ten back on multiplying by ten putting the nought on okay?
So if I said three out of fifteen.
Three shared out between fifteen people
is one over five one fifth.
Right so how would you like to have a go at drawing your pie chart?
Mm?
Okay.
Now what I want you to do is 
is to just, just talk about it erm okay fit it on there looks like a good idea.
yeah it'll fit on nicely.
Oh very good, good, watch that it's very easy to get it the wrong way round.
you just think how is she going to do it how would you do it if you were doing Kelly's one?
It's usually a good idea to do the biggest ones first  get those out of the way.
The two fifties.
Right.
Er  two halfs two thirds.
Do a third for each of them.
Two fifties.
Erm do this one in, do this one in pencil.
In case I get it wrong?
In ca w you don't think she's going to get it wrong do you?
So you, do think she's going to get it wrong ooh?
Do you think you're going to get it wrong?
Go on have a go.
I don't know.
It doesn't matter whether you get it right or wrong it doesn't come into it really.
The two big ones.
Okay.
Okay   Right okay what's this, what's this hundred degrees for?
What does it mean?
I've spent two fifties.
I spent a hundred.
Aha.
Oh I know what I didn't do.
Right what do you think about this then?
It's cos you've only got one fifty  three pound sixty.
Right.
If you'd had three pound sixty to spend then fifty would be fifty degrees.
Yeah that would be right.
Now when I said you were very good at it I said what's fifty as a fraction of one fifty?
A third.
A third so on here it's got to look like
A third.
a third.
Okay.
Right it's got to look like a third.
So how are you going to make it look like a third?
With your protractor.
Okay.
Measure your protra measure  
Okay you could measure a third.
But you won't always have these  so you could measuring it's a good way.
You could do it roughly but we want this accurately.
How are we going to do it?
Erm if you  the circle with the
Right.
then you could  mea see what the erm  
Go on.
Go on you've got the right idea don't be afraid to say it.
Mm 
Well try and explain it, you don't have to get the right words.
circle
Okay.
then you could  you could  and then you could measure it and see if three of them 
Right you could see, you could have a guess at it and see if three went round exactly.
Yeah I was just I was just trying to do that  
Okay that's a good guess or as you said Kelly you could just use your, your fraction here as and mark it off cos you know that's a third or you could measure the angle on the fraction and see what it comes to oh yes  
Go on.
Right you could put that centre point there on that and you could draw them.
But I
but you wouldn't normally have that.
They're all really good ways of doing it.
But I'd like you to try and calculate it.
Is that one third?
Did you try one fifty?
Good guess.
What, what are you trying to do?
How are you trying to calculate this?
Well do one fifty
Mm.
my fifty
Mm.
and then my other fifty.
So you did three times fifty?
Yeah.
Erm that doesn't that doesn't help much.
Any ideas Claire how we can sort this out, how we can find out what is exactly one third of the way round this circle?
How far is it all the way round the circle?
Three hundred and sixty.
Three hundred and sixty degrees.
Half a
How many degrees would it be to go a third of the way round the circle?
One hundred and twenty.
Right okay.
So although this is fifty pence when you show it on here the fir so the first thing we've got to do is change this fifty pence to get away from fifty pence or thirty pence or twenty and change it into a fraction.
What fraction of one pound fifty is it?
Er 
A third.
A third.
So as a fraction you can just write, this is if you just write, that's erm he over here you can put a heading  fraction erm you can go back to your pen now .
Fraction of total.
Right that's okay.
Now would you like to do the same for yours, work out what fraction of a total yours are.
Okay and then underneath that you'll put your, your forty pence.
An so on so fifty pence is fifty over one fifty isn't it?
That's what fraction it is.
Fifty out of one fifty.
fifty over one fifty.
And have you done cancelling fractions?
No okay.
Yeah I think
Well what does that come to?
Three a third.
A third okay.
So 
Equals a third.
Erm here, I should have told you, here if you can put  fraction of circle.
erm let's see fraction of that's fraction of okay fraction of total and then here you can put circle.
So fraction of a total is fifty over one fifty.
And it's going to be a third of three sixty isn't it?
A third times three sixty.
Times is the same as of.
For the thirty?
For the, for the fifty.
Still working on this one.
Erm yeah see
One third of
you're going to go one third of the way round.
If you go all the way round you go three hundred sixty degrees.
Sixty degrees.
Alright to go a third of the way round you'll go one third of and we know how to write of.
Times.
That's it one third of three hundred and sixty.
and we can work out what that comes to.
And then you can do the same for all the others.
Erm do you think it would be an idea if we made a sort of table out of this?
Yeah.
Yes so this i I mean this is what maths is, is about, you start doing something and then    So how we going to lay this out?
In an actual table.
some columns.
Something like this say.
Okay.
Probably got more columns than I need there.
You could normally draw 
So let's have a look at erm  the previous one no we'll look at, we'll look at Kelly's here and if I do something like  save  so we put here total  is one pound fifty.
How much are we going to save?
How much are you saving?
Fifty pence.
Fifty pence.
Fifty pence and sweets thirty pence 
Presents.
Presents
Twenty pence.
twenty pence.
Stationery fifty pence.
Stationery good.
Stationery fifty 
Fif 
pence well that's quite a bit.
Fifty P and there you have the  total one fifty.
Now fraction of total  fraction of total  So this is going to come to fifty over one fifty.
This'll be thirty
Thirty.
over one fifty.
Twenty over one fifty.
And?
Fifty over one fifty.
Well we worked out that that comes to one third.
Thirty over one.
ooh that's a hard one  this one comes to one third.
So that's three fifteenths right?
Yeah.
Thirty over one fifty will be the same as three over fifteen which comes to?
Five.
One fifth.
Fifth one fifth.
One over five one fifth.
Are you happy with that one over five?
Yeah.
One over five.
And what will twenty out of one fifty be?
Well we can divide the top by ten and the bottom by ten  and we'll get two fifteenths.
Yes.
Can't do any more than that.
So fraction of a circle  fraction of a circle this is going to be one third times three sixty or we could say number of degrees here, fraction of a circle as number of degrees.
So that's a third of three sixty degrees and that's a third of three sixty okay?
Going to be a fifth of three sixty.
And two fifteenths 
Fifteenths  of three sixty .
of three sixty.
Okay so let's see, okay things that I bought, right how much and now we need quite a bit sort of across there if we can, if we can get it.
So er  if you make another one here you can put this as a fraction of the total.
Right and then there as a fraction of the circle.
And we'll put one down 
one down yes okay down there.
Right so this'll be a fraction of total  Okay 
Do you want me to write it?
Erm yeah if you can do one something like that.
Have another, have a, have one of these with lines on perhaps.
That's, that's okay isn't it?
You can, you can write it out again afterwards to make sense of it and you can both get together and write it out and sort of do pretty tables.
It's better than my scribble .
So something like that.
Er now  so what fraction of the total, forty out of a pound.
So the fraction will be  you spend forty pence out of a hundred pence.
Are you a bit worried about this?
Mm.
Well it's dead easy fractions .
Don't forget a fraction 
is the answer to a division and they're saying what's erm forty divided by a hundred right?
And we pretend we know the answer all we do is we write the sum out again and we say forty divided by a hundred is forty divided by a hundred.
Only now it looks like a fraction.
It still means the same thing.
Forty divided by a hundred.
Good.
Stationery fifty pence .
Now this one  can you make that a er a more useful fraction?
If you had ten out of a hundred you can cancel it have you done cancelling?
No well if you had ten pounds shared between a hundred of us we'd all get the same amount if we had one pound shared between ten of us.
Cos we could put it into lots of ten.
Couldn't we, we could put the, we could put the money into lots of ten and we could put the people into lots of ten.
So let's say if we had ten pounds on the table and a hundred people underneath.
I done it wrong.
Erm that's fifty out of one fifty that's right.
Yeah but I, I done that one underneath  
just do a thirty out of one fifty there.
Shall I do me fifty ?
Let's see keep, keep it on the same line if you can.
Can you?
Yes that's fine.
Fifty over one fifty 
So we look at this ten pound we're going to put that ten pound on the table we might put a ten pound note or we might say we'll have ten one pound coins.
Right ten p ten times one pound and underneath we can tell all the people to get into lots of ten.
Don't all just stand together can you make ten lots of ten okay.
And then you could say, well you lot of ten there, you group of ten, you can have that one pound.
And the other group of ten have another ten pounds, and so you'd get, each group of ten would have one pound shared out between the ten of you.
Okay now this isn't a very good example to show you how fractions cancel because we get this ten all over the place.
So let's look at one of, let's look at the one that Kelly's working on there where she's got fifty pounds shared out between a hundred and fifty people.
Right we'll say oh well they both end in a nought don't they so what number will divide into them.
What number would go into fifty and the same number go into a hundred and fifty?
Ten.
Ten so that fifty we'll write it as five times ten or ten times five doesn't matter let's write it as ten times five.
And this one we'll write as ten times fifteen.
So what have we done, we've put the money into ten lots of five pound now okay so we got fifty pounds let's say we had it in five pound notes.
So we put ten five pound notes round this very big table and then we're saying now you've a hundred and fifty people I don't know how you managed to get into this room.
But a hundred and fifty of you can you all get into two groups and there'll be fifteen in each group of you.
So this group of fifteen here that's your five pound between you and then we'll go onto the second group of fifteen people and they could have the second five pound and the third and the fourth and so on.
Up to the, the tenth group of fifteen people well that's your ten pound that's your five pound the tenth five pound.
So they say, oh okay we've sorted this out a bit now each group just has five pound to share out between fifteen of them.
That's a bit easier what number will divide into both of these?
Five.
Five right so we'll put them in five groups of five lots of one pound on the table.
We'll change these, this five pound note into pound coins.
Five lots of one pound and the people, we'll put them into five sets of  there were fifteen of them so we'll make 
Three.
five sets of three.
Right okay set number one that's, that's Claire's set  three of you share that first pound.
Second set  Kelly's set you three share that pound.
Third one share that, fourth share that.
Fifth set the last set you three you group of three people will share that last pound.
So now  they've got it sorted out to one pound between three of them.
And we got to there from starting off with fifty pounds between a hundred and fifty of them which was quite hard to handle but by making it smaller this is called cancelling fraction when you  take  really we're dividing this side we say, well we've got ten on the top and ten on, ten times five on the top ten times fifteen on the bottom.
Well if we put the money into sets, lots of ten and the people into lots of ten we could cancel those tens out and it would just come down to five over fifteen.
Okay and then as you saw five'll go into it so we can cancel the fives out and it's just one over three.
So how much will they get?
They'll get one pound shared between three.
And maybe at that point we say, oh oh okay we can't share it out any more it doesn't work out very well.
Perhaps we, we all have erm thirty three pence each and we give a penny to Oxfam, or we'll toss up or we'll, thirty three pence each and one penny left over so we'll have a third of that penny each we'll cut it up.
Right so have you worked out what those come to?
How many degrees it is.
You can you can sort of just go over that line and put equals so many degrees.
So what would a third of three sixty come to?
So you're working out what your fractions are so forty over a hundred is four times  ten lots of four over ten lots of ten.
Well we can forget about those cos they're in sets of ten.
Four tenths okay.
Erm  how many twos in that well we can think of that as two times two over two times five.
We can cancel 
those twos again.
Two fifths.
Is that right?
Am I doing that right?
That's brilliant.
Yeah that's great.
That's going to be two fifths.
How about the ten over a hundred what will that come to?
Erm they both end in nought so ten goes into both of them.
Right good so you could just
So this is ten times one and this is ten times ten we could cancel those out and we get
One tenth.
one tenth brilliant.
So that's one tenth and that's one tenth and then what I'd like you to do is work it out as a fraction what fraction of how many degrees would it be if you had a tenth of three hundred and sixty degrees, how many degrees would that come to?
So would it be ten divided by three hundred and sixty?
It'd be, it would be  one tenth  of don't forget that's of, one tenth of three hundred and sixty.
so you're just dividing
You're dividing it by ten or you're of-ing, times-ing, multiplying it by one tenth, it's the same thing.
Multiply it by one tenth or divide it by ten.
What is a tenth of three sixty?
Right you can cancel it like this you multi can you multiply fractions?
So we've got
one  one over ten  times  thirty six times ten.
We can cancel that ten with that ten and what does it comes to?
Thir mm thirty six.
It just comes to thirty six good.
A fifth of three hundred and sixty.
Ooh a fifth is awkward isn't it?
How many tenths would there be in a fifth?
How many tenths in a fifth?
Mm.
Share out, share out something between erm ten people  okay say share out a pound.
How much would we get each?
If we shared out, let's say you share out erm  ten pence  between ten people how much do we get?
Two one.
Yeah so we get one and the you're going on to the next one.
Share it out between five people you get two.
Twenty pence.
You get two pence.
So do I divide that by five and then times it by ten?
Excellent.
So  you're trying to find out one fifth well you just divide it by five it's the easy way to do it.
But well it's one way to do it you can use a calculator or  you could say what would, could you work out a tenth of three sixty?
A tenth of three sixty?
Mm what's ten times six?
Sixty.
Ten times erm nine?
Ninety.
So ten times something gave us three sixty ten times what?
Thirty six.
So a tenth of three sixty must be?
Thirty six.
Thirty six so that was one way of working out a tenth of it but we want a fifth.
a fifth would be two tenths.
When you get a fifth of something you get twice as much as when you get a tenth.
It's probably simpler not to, not to worry about that that's just a quick a bit of a short cut way of doing it.
You just divide three sixty by five and see what you get.
I know.
Good do you remember a long time ago doing factor trees and I gave you three sixty to do?
Yeah.
Can you see now why it's useful?
Why it comes in handy to know all the things that you could multiply together to know three hundred and sixty.
Can you remember any of them?
Did you do that?
No.
No.
The factors of three hundred and sixty.
So let's have a look.
Ten times thirty six.
Two fifths you get a hundred and forty four.
Is that right?
Ooh I don't know.
Do you want to, do you want to check it on the calculator?
So if you multiply a hundred and forty four by 
By   
Okay try  tr just, just try this one erm divide, divide your three sixty by seventy two let's see what you get.
Five  five  
times seventy two by two.
Right.
A hundred and forty four.
Good so they all look, they all look fine.
Okay I reckon you can start drawing your one now can't you?
Seventy two.
Right.
Do you want to show you how I done it?
Go on.
Well I went back up to the first one and I said you need three one hundred and twenties to get to three hundred and sixty so 
Yes.
what do you need five of to get to
That's it.
three hundred and sixty.
Seventy two.
What do you need five of.
Seventy two.
You need ten thirty sixes.
So you could cut it up you cut your, your circle up into ten equal pieces, cut your pizza, your pie into ten equal slices and they'd all be thirty six degrees.
Then you'd say well here's our pie we're going to share it out between ten people tonight.
Oh half of them haven't turned up we're only going to share it between five of us.
Well we'll get two pieces two of those thirty six pieces that those one tenth 
Add the two thirty sixes.
Seventy two okay.
Right that one you've already done up here haven't you?
Yeah.
So that one's okay.
And don't forget to put your little squi little circle at the top for degrees, seventy two degrees.
Good, total one pound.
Right off you go.
Okay
Right now how are you going to do this one, two fifteenths?
If I said to you, what's erm what's three quarters of twenty?
How would you work it out?
Three quarters of twenty?
Mhm.
twenty.
Mm what does three quarters look like?
three quarters.
It's got a quarters missing.
Looks like a 
So how would you, how would you find three quarters of twenty?
Could you find a quarter of twenty?
Ten?
What's half of twenty?
Half of twenty, ten.
Right what's a quarter of twenty?
Five.
Okay  what's three quarters?
Fifteen.
Okay so that's how you, that's how you'd do three quarters you'd say well I could find a quarter of it and then cut it all up into quarters and then I'll take three pieces, three quarters.
So
how would you find two fifteenths?
Well we've just said if
Well we've just said
We've said find three quarters by finding one quarter first and then you take three times it.
So how would you find two fifteenths?
What would be the first thing you'd do?
one fifteenth.
Right so find one fifteenth of that and then
three hundred and sixty.
So how many fifteens would you get in three hundred and sixty?
So one fifteenth of three hundred and sixty is going to be three hundred and sixty and then in front of that you'll want one fifteenth of  and this times thing is quite handy when we're multiplying fractions together we'll just get three sixty over fifteen.
Okay.
Oh that looks good.
Have you checked at all the angles?
Yeah.
Including the last one that just happened.
Yeah.
Erm now they should both be thirty six do they look, do they look like thirty six?
They look pretty good to me.
Erm looks a little, just a little bit more.
And that one's  that one's thirty isn't it?
Mm.
These two should be the same and these should be a hundred and forty four.
Mm.
About a hundred and forty five but that's fair enough that's near enough.
That's good.
Erm if you look at that it looks as if you spend a bit more on presents than stationery.
Cos it's a little bit bigger cos it didn't, it didn't work out completely right, you did a hundred and forty five.
It's very hard to do just one degree but that's very good that's, that's good enough, that's what people can see.
That's great that's good.
Yeah yeah erm you could write just outside it here like save and you could say that you save forty pence.
Save forty pence underneath or 
Yeah.
Erm ou outside here put forty pence.
Right how are you going to do that three hundred and sixty divided by fifteen?
Try a bit of cancelling first.
Okay three hundred and sixty over, let's, let's do  three sixty over fifteen.
Can you think of any factors of fifteen?
Two numbers that would multiply together to make three.
This is getting hard 
Good, good getting hard this isn't it when you've been having a holiday and you thought you were gonna have a nice play and we're doing all this hard work.
Now some factors of three sixty.
Well three would be a nice one to have.
Will three go into three sixty?
Yeah.
Okay three whats would make three sixty?
Three times what?
Three times a hundred and twenty.
Three times a hundred and twenty.
Okay and then we'll write that again.
Erm we could write that as, instead of the hundred and twenty we could have twelve times ten couldn't we?
Three times twelve times ten.
That makes, that makes three sixty over three times five and then we can cancel.
Okay see what we're cancelling.
Okay so  three times twelve times ten over three times five.
Well there's a three on the top so we can just divide by three on the top and that's, how many threes in three?
One.
One.
One.
Divide by three on the bottom how many threes in?
One.
How many fives in five?
One.
One.
How many fives in ten?
Two.
Two.
Two right so on the bottom now we've just got one times one which is one and on the top we've got one times twelve times two what does that come to?
is twenty four.
Okay twenty four over one what does that mean?
It's twenty four shared out between one person, they get the lot.
It's not really a fraction it's just twenty four okay.
So now you've worked out what one fifteenth is right?
One fifteenth equals twenty four degrees.
So two fifteenths    two times twenty four degrees equals forty eight degrees okay.
Now on the angle that you did there the degrees can you add those up and just before you start drawing it you should always add them up and make sure they all come to three sixty cos if it comes to four hundred it's going to go right round and a bit further than once round.
If it comes to less than three hundred and sixty you're gonna have a little bit left over that you didn't spend  on at all.
So it's a good thing to check.
If you'd like to add yours up  try them in your head if you have trouble then you can use the calculator.
Try them in my head  
Okay good.
Right good and you should always check that before you draw it just in case your pie chart comes out and put, put that up in the air a bit I'll just show you that, those are good there, but up in the air like that
Mm.
.
Quite small and up there cos otherwise you're go it's going to look a bit like three thousand six hundred isn't it?
Looks like another nought as you say.
Okay looks great.
So now you're ready to draw your .
Okay so a hundred and twenty.
What do you think about this?
Do you think it's quite hard?
There's quite a lot to it isn't there?
A lot of things going to here.
Shall I do it on that piece of paper so I don't get mixed up on
No no don't, well it doesn't matter, anywhere you like.
Here do it on, do it on that one that's good so you keep it together.
What you could do with is labelling these so that, which one of them is the first question, sort of pie chart A if you like then pie chart, pie chart A and again if you've got the total on, on your pie chart then you, you won't get confused will you?
What do you think of it?
Do you think it's pretty hard?
I don't.
There's a lot in it, there's, a but it's a good exercise because if you can do all these different bits
Right.
then you can do almost anything in maths.
Erm and you could start making up your own and playing with them on the computer.
and you'll you know it does it itself you just, you, with the computer you just say well I had four pounds and I spent a pound on that and two pound on this thirty pence on that and it goes pow does it by magic.
it do what it's doing
pie charts and graphs
and bar charts and graphs it's doing all this.
It's got some arithmetic in the program that works out all the angles and then it draws them.
That looks good.
And you don't need to mark the one twenty on I mean you can do if you like.
Erm you could perhaps put erm one side 
here what the one twenty comes to, it was, how much erm fifty pence.
and don't forget to mark on it what that was, that was save.
Shall I put like 
Mm no that's okay and somewhere what the total was.
Well the total is always three sixty all the way round but was this when you had a million pound pocket money or when you only got four pence a week.
So you have sort of 
When I got one 
total one fifty.
Okay good now this is probably the first real go at doing pie charts that you've had isn't it?
The other ones you've been doing have been pretty easy.
Well that's, that's fine you've got to start with the easy ones and at your age you wouldn't, you wouldn't normally be doing them this hard at all, this is for sixteen year olds who are doing their, their plot paper on G C S E maths so you expect to find, oh hang on this is a bit hard there's a bit of work in this, but I think you're capable of doing it.
You, you might think, ooh I don't really know what I'm doing at the moment er perhaps I couldn't do it on my own.
But if you practise it you will be able to.
You'll be able to do these on your own.
did you say move your nought to there then do your 
You're going to, you're going to measure an angle now of another, how much do you want to do?
I'm doing my seventy two.
Seventy two so you'll start from, that bit's, that's gone now if you like if somebody came along and they cut out that piece of cake.
So you put them 
So you as you say put your nought there you've got to start from where you finished off last time and carry round again.
And  would you two like, do you think you'd like to work through these again together doi just doing the same ones
Yeah.
to see and talk about it between the two of you and see how you got on with it.
Now it's quite likely that next time I come we can spend quite a bit of time doing this same thing again yeah cos there's a lot in it there's angles using a protractor adding things up to check they come to the total that the angles come to three sixty and there's this thing about fractions there's cancelling fractions and then there's working with quite big numbers three hundred and sixty what's two fifteenths of three hundred and sixty mm that's quite hard.
A lot in it er but you can learn a lot from it and eventually you'll be able to do any sort of these pie charts, if somebody says well you've got four pound eighty to spend, and somebody spends three quarters on this and a tenths on that, two fifteenths on something else and you can add them all up and do a nice chart.
What do you think of it?
Do you think it's hard?
Yeah.
Yeah it is hard, it's hard and  and i when, when Kelly's done this one we'll have a little bit of a break okay?
And  you might both like to talk to each other now about what you found easy what you found hard because Kelly found some bits hard, you thought oh it's obvious, didn't you?
You found some bits hard and Kelly thought ooh that's obvious.
Okay it's easy if you know how to do it, it is obvious when you know how to do it but if you don't know how to do it it's not that easy and it's definitely not obvious.
I'm stuck .
Right are you stuck?
What have you got here then?
It's supposed to go like
Right no no you've got a one twenty and a on a one twenty and a one twenty and then you've got a forty eight, forty eight and a seventy two.
That looks right.
How m and this is wha you worked all the way round now how much have you got left over?
You should have this one twenty left over so just check that and make sure that you have cos if you haven't something's gone wrong and you have to start again but you  
Yeah.
absolutely spot on.
Well I lo I  I looked at the fifty and then  
And you thought, ooh it's going to be fifty degrees because of because we started off with a very easy number three pound sixty.
That was why I chose it.
Three hundred and sixty pennies one penny for every degree.
Oh this is easy anyone can do this.
Right but then we go on to working out fractions, what's two fifteenths of a pound.
Oh don't know.
So, but three sixty, it's a lovely number cos it's got so many factors.
Okay so what I'd like you to do now a little bit of revision  which, which way shall we do it first of all no just talk about it both of you what you found easy and what you found hard.
What you can both agree on, oh that was easy, or both think ooh that was hard.
If I'm, try and tell me the steps that you went through to work out how you were going to draw your pie charts.
For the, for the, for the first one where it was just three pound sixty that was pretty easy wasn't it?
How did you do that?
The three pound sixty 
It's  
Do you mean that one?
If you save half of it
Yeah.
it's one pound eighty and it's just gonna be half 
Well why, why w it's just half okay so that was easy you didn't have to work out how many degrees, it was just a half, it's half way round the circle.
It'd be a hundred and eighty degrees.
Right now what about this one where it was erm you spent  one pound.
It'd be, you'd put your nought here
Right.
and then a hundred.
And it was just a hundred degrees?
Mm why was it a hundred degrees?
Cos it's a penny for each degree.
Right because we've picked that three sixty a penny for each degree makes it easy then no problem none of this messing about with fractions and all the cancelling and ooh dear, which is where all the hard part is  that's where all the hard work is this doing the fractions.
So no real problems with that one?
No.
Now we go on to the second one.
Is that the one we've just been doing?
This one you've just been doing now.
What did you think of that?
It was hard.
It was hard wasn't it?
No 
no two ways about it that was really hard.
So what was the hardest part about it?
Mm.
Hardest part.
Mine was erm  because it's not  with the nought on the end so you can just find that number
Right.
find 
So once you knew wh how many degrees it was for each slice of the pie in your pie chart no problem to use your protractor and mark off forty eight degrees, a hundred and forty four, seventy two, thirty six 
You'd have to find  
Finding s okay so there was a little bit of it was a little bit awkward to get it to the nearest degree there.
That was a bit awkward but erm   calculating how many degrees it was.
It was quite easy.
Was it was it quite easy?
You both had quite a few 
once a, well once you know how to do it it's easy.
But working out how to do it wasn't that easy was it, it wasn't a very easy thing to do that, no.
Erm I think we'll go over  the working out, how to work out the fraction so there's two stages really.
What fraction of the total is it.
Okay and let's say it comes to a third or it comes to two fifteenths.
So that's
that's not too bad that but that, that's hard enough.
And it doesn't stop there because when you've worked that out now you've got to wo you've got this biggish number three sixty, Urgh!
Or how, what's a fifteenth of three hundred and sixty?
Urgh what's a tenth of three hundred and sixty?
Or what's a fifth of it?
Or worse still what's three fifths of it?
Or two fifteenths?
So that's, it's pretty awkward.
Erm we'll have a look at that in a minute.
Now what I want you to do now I want you to draw a factor tree  of three hundred and sixty.
Right now.
Right now okay.
Have you done a factor tree?
Three sixty .
Can you explain to Claire how to do a factor tree?
Should I do it on the back of that?
Erm on a new bit of paper you know have some of, have some of these okay have some of those.
Just put a little square there.
And put three hundred and sixty inside it.
Okay now while you're explaining is it all right if I just use your toilet?
Yeah erm go to, when you're at the top of the stairs first on the right.
Okay 
And then bring a little line coming down from your right hand side.
Hello I'm just coming up to use your loo if it's okay.
Done that yet?
A bit 
Yeah.
bigger.
And then the factor is you've got to find all different things  that
Yeah.
bring a little line coming there into it  and I'll make that into a little square.
No bring another line coming down like that.
That's it.
And then put a square onto e the end of that.
And put a times in between them.
And now put  mm now think of something that you could times that adds up to three hundred and sixty.
thirty six by ten.
Go on put that then.
Thirty six times ten.
That equals that.
Three times twelve.
So  bring this down 
From this one cos erm er three times twelve would equal thirty six.
It's just like a family tree.
Oh ask John  say it was  ages ago  
Oh it's ages ago since I done these.
Erm we've done one 
Right so do you understand it all?
No.
No.
No what bits 
I remember 
Hasn't Kelly explained it properly?
I remember.
That's good that's a good start.
Okay I'll ex I'll 
explain to Claire.
Now what we do, oh the dog wanted to know all about it.
To explain it better I should have done what adds up to thirty six then up to three hundred and sixty shouldn't I?
Adds up to?
Times.
Times, so all you do you can start anywhere you like.
Yeah.
We pick two factors two numbers that would make you multiply them together and they would make three sixty.
And the obvious ones look like thirty six and ten.
Now I usually but the small number first, doesn't matter.
So erm  they're okay  
so we could have ten times thirty six.
Now  and then we could do the same with  the ten now
Yeah then all the things that times ten.
So what would make the ten?
We put two boxes under the ten
What would make ten and put the small one first.
Two times five 
Two times five.
Okay good yeah two times five.
Two times five and what about the thirty six can you think of two numbers that would make thirty six when you multiply them together?
Six times six.
Yeah.
Okay six times six.
Could have had three times twelve it doesn't matter which ones 
Okay well you put three times twelve that's what you were going to say so, if Claire puts six times six you put three times twelve and I'll put four times nine just to be awkward.
There we are we all have different ones but we should all finish up with the same answer.
Right so let's see on Kelly's then you've got three times twelve.
Can you get any other factors from three apart from one and itself?
No
No.
so that's the, that's the end of that we don't split that box up any more.
What about the twelve?
What would you split that up into?
Okay.
So two times six, can you go any further with the two?
No.
That's it okay that's finished.
What about the six?
Can you see what Claire's doing?
So she's split the twelve up into a two times six.
Now what about the six?
Should I split the six up?
Erm well yours is different so we'll look at yours in a minute.
So what happens to your  six?
It's two times three.
Right good.
Two times three.
Okay  it can't go any further with the two or with the three.
So let's have a look at Claire's.
What's Claire got?
So you've got two times five.
You can't go a can't s split the five down any more can you or the two so you've finished there.
What about the six what c that first six what could you split that up into?
Two times three.
Right that'll make two times three.
Okay and if you bring that one down a little bit then it'll collide with these.
Okay.
Mm this far.
And that six is going to make?
Same as this six.
Two times three.
Two times three okay.
And I'll do mine  so I had three sixty and I split it as a ten times thirty six and then I had two times five for that ten okay can't go any further there.
Now I've got four times nine.
Well what can I split this four up, what can I split that up into?
Two times two.
Okay so I'll make that two times two.
Can't go any further with that.
And wha can't go any further with that and what about the nine?
Could do three times three.
Three times three okay and that's that.
So we've all finished our trees now I'm going to write out what I've got on mine and I'm going to pick the smallest numbers first.
So I've got a two there I'll put a tick on that so I've got two times I've got another two so I always put my smallest ones on the left so I can find them quickly.
Another two there  another two here.
And then I've got some threes.
I've got a three  another three and that's
A four.
A five I don't count, I only count the ends when I got to the point where I couldn't go any further.
And there was a five there.
So who wa who's good at calculating?
Me.
Me.
You do you work that I'll tell you what you work that I'll work my own out.
No  two times two times two
Two times two times two
times three
times  three
times three  times five  and what's that come to?
Three hundred and sixty.
Okay oh that's a very, so that's  all of those multiplied together are, would make three hundred and sixty.
Sixty.
Now if you'd like to check  what Claire has got.
Let's see what Claire's got first of all.
Erm can we find the smallest.
We'll both have a look at this, all have a look at it and find the smallest.
Two.
Two.
So there's a two.
Times
Okay there's another two if you like to carry 
Mm two 
if you'd like to carry on from there Claire.
So and just put on each one as you find it.
There's a two there's another two.
And then three.
Right  there's another three
Then five.
and there's a five.
Okay so I got, what did I get?
Underneath there.
Two times two times two times three times three times five.
So we've, we've got the same one.
And if you like to check yours now just  okay.
If you like to check your 
That's two  two times  John?
Mhm.
There do I go two then times two?
Right so you've got, got a tick on that two and now look for, are there any other twos?
Oh God yeah times two
Have a look see if you got any other twos.
times two
And put a tick on each one as you get it so that's one two three okay.
times three.
Times three.
times three
Okay  see if you can make 
times five.
what other things you could make just by multiplying these together now.
Done that.
Okay and you we all get the same and it comes to three sixty.
Cos mine came to three sixty.
So what numbers could you make just by taking just a few of these  and 
Should you should we put brackets  
You could put brackets round that would be good.
So what are we doing?
So if you put brackets round say three of those twos what would that, what number would that make?
Two times two times two.
Six.
Now would it?
Two times 
Eight.
Eight
Eight.
okay.
Erm and you could put 
brackets round the three times three see.
Just, just round the three times three okay.
And then the three times five.
And what would that make?
Nine.
Nine.
So you could have, we'd know that eight, if you'd like to check that eight times nine times five
Eight times nine times five.
that should come to three sixty.
Yeah.
Okay.
Now what I'd like you to do is to look at these numbers  this is a bit like erm have you seen Countdown?
Carol Vorderman  where you have to make  numbers?
You have to make a total out of the numbers?
No okay what you need to do, what I want you to do now is  just pick some of these numbers and multiply them together so that you get forty five.
Forty five?
Mhm.
Good  thanks.
Yes that was very good that's excellent.
Cover, it cover it up just in case Kelly's tempted to look over that way.
Right now good.
Right h how did you do what you did Claire?
How did you do it, why did you go for it that way?
Because  five times three is fifteen and if you times fifteen by three it'll be forty five.
Mm but did you know that already?
Okay well Claire seemed to go straight for the answer straight, right away.
She's not really quite sure why but she knew that was the way and it was, it was the right, was the right things to go for.
But that doesn't help if you don't know how to do it?
So let's see if we can think of a way of doing it.
Could we use a factor tree to find out  we're trying to find out which of these when you multiply them together would give you forty five.
Would give you forty five?
Mm.
five in it.
So let's get, is that what you did Claire, there's going to be a five in it?
Yeah.
Forty five is in your five times tables.
At first I looked at that nine and then I went  five.
Right so you spotted that right away.
And you got a nine there times a five would make forty five.
Well if you don't spot that it's no h it's no help really you can't just think, Oh well I'll just sit there until it comes into my head.
So you're gonna have to think of another way.
If there'd been a much 
whenever you get three times three.
Well erm I mean I might have said
Right if it ends in a five then five is one of its factors.
So let's do a little 
Ah if it ends in ten what could you say about one of its factors?
Sorry  if it ends in nought .
Yes.
ten.
Ten is one of its factor.
But if it ended in, if ten is one of its factors then there's a num another number that must be one of its factors.
Five.
Five must be a factor and two must be a factor.
Right cos they go into ten.
So if it ends in a nought or it ends in a five then five goes into it.
But we could have dome a little tree for forty five.
We could  done forty five how are we going to split that up?
Well it ends in a five so we know that five goes into it.
So we'll have five times and then
And then you think what comes down there.
work out what is it.
Five nines okay.
Five nines and then  how can we, how can we split the nine up?
Three times three.
Yeah.
Okay.
Right now what do we need to make up our forty five?
Five times three times three.
Have we got that here yes here's a five and a three so we could make forty five.
How could you make, how could you make, I'd like you to both have a look at those now and see how you could make, quiet.
How, how you could make ninety?
Benji.
Ninety?
Mhm.
Ninety.
Okay but we want to do it, good that's it but we want to do it by times lots of these numbers times together.
You've already worked out, was good cos you've worked out how to make forty five haven't you?
So how would you change that forty five into a ninety now?
Forty five into your ninety 
You could do that much, do the three times three times five and that gives you forty five but we're looking for ninety.
So what have you got to do to it now to make it into a ninety?
That's it times two.
So two times three times three times five will give you ninety.
Why are we doing all these things?
Anyone got any idea why we're looking at all these interesting factors of three hundred and sixty?
Well I was just gonna say because all the numbers go into three hundred and sixty.
Yeah but why are we so interested in three hundred and sixty?
Right because it's a complete circle, a full turn all the way round a hundred percent of your pie chart.
Mm.
That's the total.
Is it time already?
Oh it's not far off actually only about five minutes to go.
Right okay well while we're interested in
Hi.
We've g we've got five minutes haven't we?
Right cos I know you've got to get off you've got to be there for six have you?
Yeah.
You're going to be worn out with all this aren't you?
Now don't worry abo if you forget all of this  by next time.
If you've forgotten, if you think you've forgotten you won't really forget it.
But it's the sort of thing that we want 
to go over a few times.
Yeah and especially on the fractions and the different types of fractions but you just find o found out what makes ninety haven't you?
Two times three times three times five makes ninety so what have you got left over?
Two times two.
So we could write this as four times ninety.
Okay?
Four time so if someone says what's a quarter of all the way round you can look at all of these and you can think, well four times ninet four times what would be all the way round?
Four times ninety, so a fourth of the way round, a quarter the way round must be?
Ninety.
Ninety.
So  how about if you'd both like to find out what a thirtieth  of the way round is using the fra the factors there.
A thirtieth?
Or try, you did a fifteenth earlier didn't you?
What would a fifteenth of the way round be?
A fifteenth?
But I don't look, don't look 
Seventy two.
Okay.
Right.
Well this is, this is what we'd do.
We'd have a look, anyone ideas?
Anyone got any ideas?
We're trying to come u 
find fifteenth 
We'd go on.
Find fif find thirty in there.
It's fin okay if we're looking for a thirtieth we'd find thirty in there.
Right if we were looking for a fifteenth, say we were looking for a fifteenth  what would make 
Times it by two.
what would make fifteen out of this lot we've got here?
Five times three.
Five times three.
Right so five times three would make fifteen and what have we got left over?
Two times two is four times two is eight times three is twenty four.
Okay is that right?
Two ti eight, do you want to check that on the calculator?
Twenty four times fifteen.
Three hundred and sixty.
Right so if you get to know if you drew  do it through the week don't worry about the pie charts don't worry about the fractions.
We'll go over those again.
Just play with these what num what numbers would make three sixty?
So once you've got all those you can say well four times ninety or two times one eighty okay fifteen times twenty four.
And you work all of those out so that you just play with them just get to know them so that you're happy with them.
And you could both write something maybe about your grading maybe a little bit about what was good, what was hard, what was easy, what was boring  about this cos I think there was a lot of hard work, there wasn't much play in it today was there?
A lot of hard work to get you working during the holidays.
But erm we'll have a look at it next time and we'll, you know, play with it a bit more and we'll get on with doing some more pie charts okay?
Now I think we'd better finish on time so you can go and stand in the, the wet and  breathe in get some fresh air into your lungs and get all psyched up ready for your grading.
Right and I'll explain to Claire about what I want both of you to do  for next week.
And Claire can make, you can make some 
sleeping  Claire's gonna sleep in my tent  
Right okay.
Yeah so I'll
tell you roughly what I want you to do and you can make a few notes and then you can tell Kelly.
So first of all I think Kelly had better get off
Okay thank you.
and get to her grading.
Oh you're welcome, you're welcome.
Did you think it was hard?
Yeah.
It was it was very, it was very   sixteen year olds find this hard when they're doing the, the high level stuff but it's no good giving you the easy stuff cos you're both very bright, both very clever and it's no good saying, well what, does anyone know what one add two is is it?
No.
No.
turn that off?
No just leave it on it's okay.
Thank you.
You're very welcome and I hope you do very well at your grading.
I'm sure you will.
Bye thanks John.
Okay bye.
Right erm  I'll keep those.
You're going to need to have a look at fractions a bit but that's just for you.
I'm just going to have a look at this cancelling fractions don't worry about that.
Cos you're thinking, oh dear this is a bit I'm not sure I could do this on my own.
Don't worry cos we'll help you with it.
So I'd like you and Claire
You mean Kelly.
and Kelly as well to talk about  what you were doing today.
What were the hard bits?
What were the easy bits?
So the hard bits and the easy bits.
The  interesting parts, don't s don't worry don't rush I'll, I'll catch up.
The interesting parts and the have a guess.
And the
boring parts okay.
And  and then I'd like both of you separately to say  which bits you'd like to go over again and which bits you'd like us to spend more time  doing more and more examples of.
Okay so which bits should we spend more time on?
Which, I say which bits should we spend more time on  which topic which topics should we spend more time on?
Topics  should we spend more time on?
And you I think, oh you want more time on fractions, Kelly might think, well she doesn't she wants more time on doing the degrees.
Erm  and then  what would you like to writ would you like to write about this?
About what this lesson was like about?
Yeah.
Yeah if you write about that  and Kelly can write about her grading.
Okay but the, you can, you can do what you thought and what Kelly thought in your essay.
Okay have you got 
you haven't got any work to do over the holiday have you?
Erm I've got a project 
You've got a project to do okay just do what you thought.
You don't need to put what Kelly thought.
Okay.
Erm  
Yes if you've got time do it but don't, with all of, it don't feel you've got to do it, that it's homework and I'm going to get annoyed if you don't do it.
It's not like that it's just that I think it'll help you to write it down  and to think about it and to talk, talk to Kelly about it.
And I'd like you to both  spend quite a bit of time just playing with the numbers that make up three sixty.
See how many different ways you could make three sixty.
You can use your factor tree and then you can combine them in sets and say we're gonna have two times five times three.
See what that comes to.
And times what would be left over.
So now I don't want a factor tree I just want how many different lots of two numbers  just two numbers that make three sixty like ten by thirty six or twenty by eighteen all the different things.
And then you'll be able to work out a twentieth or an eighteenth or a fiftieth or a quarter.
Okay all the different, any two, all the two numbers so that when you multiply them together they make three sixty.
So one way we could write it we could sort of use algebra couldn't we?
We could say something like, the first number  times  second number  equals  three sixty.
And you find out how many different numbers could you fit in there?
And you could use the calculator if you like  try it, try it first with the, all the different ones that you've got out of the factor tree.
Most things.
Thank you very much.
Erm  I'll just sort this out.
Yes if she's coming out you mean you don't, you don't have to do it all tonight she wan might want to be talking about erm  her grading a lot so you can't expect her to do any work until she's got that out of her system she might want to go on for an hour or so.
I'll just have a quick word with your dad.
Dad!
Dad !
Okay

Would be suitable by anybody's standard whether locally or by er centrally don't volunteer either because they find working with councillors and local officials  particularly in recent years when local authorities have become much more party political and that's been a pity, or the suitable people are too busy running their own businesses.
There are of course exceptions of those who are neither councillors nor magistrates er and are prepared to do these jobs, but there aren't very many in relation to er the numbers of people that would be required for this sort of task and there are many other activities for which there are required, like school governors who like helping on various health bodies and er they haven't got the time to do them all, and if they have, they probably aren't suitable, because I have to my Lords that a lord of people who volunteer for these sorts of tasks and I have experience of them aren't people that locally we would like to have sitting on these various bodies and we have to discourage them one way and another.
So I have to say that though I at this moment very close to this in the smallest county of England I have also had experience in three other major counties in mainland England er and I have found the same experience the difficulty of finding people who will even be councillors or magistrates, let alone these other jobs that the er that the er Home Secretary seeks to find.
My Lords in any case, the best arrangements if we have to have these extra people would be to have a number appointed er but encouraged by th the police authority itself.
If the police authority was invited to co-opt people to add to their numbers, making sure that the majority still stayed with the councillors, then I don't think one should have too much objection to it, but if it's to be done in this er this way of central er of central allocation er in the form of the answer to the question to my noble friend Lord Lyle from my noble friend the Minister on the 17th of January which the Noble Lord, Lord Carrigan made reference in which these people are to be er  i i it staggers me my Lord, I have to stop for the moment, it staggers me the er the insolence, the insolence of the Home Office in writing down job descriptions and personal profiles for people that are going to function locally.
If anybody wants to know whether people are right to perform the local duty 
Hear!
Hear!
they don't want to have some er official or or some management consultant who's eager to get a job and get extra money paid for him by a dumb government department, if those people are going to tell us what sort of people we want on that  on police authorities, I think it is total insolence and I trust that whatever happens to this Bill that that answer that was given on the 17th of January is removed and replaced by something else, if it has to be replaced at all.
My Lords to come back to what it said at the end, and this is what the Noble Lord, Lord Carrigan mentioned, it talks about one of six regional short listing panels.
Now six regions in the whole of England and a an and Wales and the Isle of Wight er but were separate from you, er
six regions to cover that vast area, how can they know what it's like in Cornwall if the region is run from Bristol?
How can two people have a management consultant really know what's going on and what the right sort of people to have for er supplementing the th the police authority are?
This is absurd My Lords.
When I had occasion to talk to the Home Secretary about this, I asked him about this and he said oh, we want it to be local and I said you mean local not region and he said yes, local and I hope my noble friend who was there will remember that when he comes to decide whether this region things ever going to get a running.
I trust, I trust that if there's going to be any question of names coming forward to be a approved locally, not selected, I hope not selected, that they will be er they'll come from the local level at which the police authority actually functions and not from other counties without that particular area  and so My Lords, I would suggest er that er  the best step to go for is er Lord MacIntosh's Amendment Number Five and his er supplements and I would suggest My Lords that Amendment Number Twenty is resisted by your Lordships because it talks about one half of the members shall be members of a relevant council and I suggest above all My Lords that Amendment Number Twenty Seven is cast into outer darkness.
Hear!
Hear!
My Lords i in the eighteen months I've been privileged to be a Member of Lordships House, I've often asked myself what our functions are.
I simply say that on the debates we've had on the Policing Bill, I've learnt what the functions of your Noble House is all about and the speech that's just been made from across the Chamber from me, sums up entirely my views on the matter, and I say to your Lordships House that on the basis of experience as Northern Ireland Secretary when one is a Home Secretary for a province and there's a  number of people in this House who've had a job to do including the Noble Lord, The Noble Viscount Whitelaw who set the tone of the way we all proceeded, I accept that, the one of the things we had to do there was bring democracy back to policing and the primary force of policing is taking a long time to do and that here as Home Secretary, everything I learned there was, stop the growing centralisation and the weakening of the police authorities and police force and this Bill does exactly that  But now one of the questions I've asked myself and it's the only point because all the points have been made that I really want to ask the Government is what are these appointees for?
Whatever numbers there are what are they for?
We've had a  an expose if that's the right word of the method of appointing them, but from my own experience in my own area, where are they going to come from, what functions are they going to carry out?
Well now I've been clearing my mind on the role of the Chief Constable  a and of the Police Committee.
What is for sure on the basis of a judgment made in nineteen sixty-eight when my Noble friend Lord Callaghan of Cardiff er was Home Secretary, it was made quite clear that no Minister of the Crown can tell a Chief Constable, can tell him he must or mee no or must not keep observation on this place or that.
I wonder whether that has been carried out to the letter on one or two occasions in the last ten years.
He must or must not prosecute this man or that, nor can any police authority tell him so, the responsibility is on him, he is answerable to the law alone.
So whatever else My Lords, these appointees might they're going to do, it will not be telling the Chief Constable what to do.
Their knowledge of the area may be slight, it may be greater than perhaps we think, but they will not be able to tell the Chief Constable what to do and that is the glory of our system.
It's against the system in Continental Europe, it's against the system I saw in the occupied West Bank when I went out with the police last year and what I saw in South Africa a fortnight ago when I went out w with the police there i i i into the shanty towns and so on.
In our experience the Chief Constable is independent and subject to the law.
What are these appointees to do?
What are they supposed to do?
So, I had a look at the powers of the police authority and they're restricted to financial and administrative responsibilities and if I took that argument further, of course the Chief Constable has to take that into account.
Now it's on the financial and administrative side that I suspect that the Home Office is concerned about  and I believe they've gone the wrong way about it.
What I learnt as Home Secretary, unlike myself as Home, Home Secretary, with a police department, with the inspectorate, you having a backing, the local police authorities do not.
It is time that they had a backing.
If we need people with financial experience and managerial experience, then appoint them to the local to the Police Committee, given them a job to do, they're the ones that are should advise the Chief Constable and the Police Committee as to whether they're spending the right of money on computers and are using it properly, not whether they're using them operationally correctly.
So let's sweep aside this idea of appointees because the Home Secretary of the day and his predecessor and the Home Office and the inspectorate feel that the police authorities are not doing a proper job, give them the tools to do a pres proper job.
I was talking to someone in the Federation the other day, the Police Federation, trying to tease out this idea a and they said  the sort of a permanent Under Secretary.
Well that's getting near it, but not members of the police authority who are in and should have the role of non-executive directors.
I appeal to the Government to think again, this is going down the wrong road, we do not need these appointed, these appointees appointed by the Home Office and they know how it's done, they know this new method, but there is the list of the greater the good, and if there's  of course there will be a bias one way or the other arising out of the very method by which it is done.
We do not want this My Lords,th the th the appointed members system will be wrong, it will be against the whole trend of policing as the Noble Lord Harris spelt out from eighteen thirty-five.
I appeal to this House to reject th this th this method that the Government is putting forward, it is wrong and that's the function of this House.
Hear!
Hear!
The important debate in my opinion that we shall have this Committee stage and it is for that reason and also because for four-and-a-half years which I think is regarded as a very long time, I was answerable for police affairs er with the Home Secretary in another place, as the Noble Lord, Lord Callaghan will remember, many years ago, it goes back to January nineteen fifty-eight when I became Under Secretary and he was political advisor to the Police Federation and we very rarely disagreed I'm happy to say.
I agree with what my Noble Friend Lord Motterstone has said about this and also  with what my Noble friend Lord Rippon has said.
It is of vital importance to the successful operation of the police that they should have the co-operation of the public and they're much more likely to get it if democratically elected representatives of the public are well represented indeed in the majority at least on the police authority.
Without that, public confidence in my opinion is not as good as it should be.
I also consider that in view of their experience in the courts, the er the magistrates on the police authorities have a vital part to play.
Now My Lords, we have a  of amendments on o on this subject, really there is  a great scope for confusion.
Hear!
Hear!
And I'm going to make a suggestion to my Noble friend Lord  he has heard all the erm views  which are critical of the Government's approach and I would not have thought that he had much hope in the division lobby as  quite frankly.
Therefore I suggest to him that he should give an undertaking to do two things  er first that he should do two things.
First to give an undertaking that he will consider this matter very fully and in consultation with the Home Secretary between now and the report stage and secondly, that his consultation will extend across Your Lordships House, because I do think that in the light of the discussion which we have already h had there is a consensus emerging among Your Lordships which had will be worth my Noble friend following up.
Now having said that in, in er as a general I hope helpful suggestion, may I just make one or two comments about matters on the in the Government amendments which .
I agree with the Noble Lord, my Noble friend Lord Motterstone about an Amendment Number Twenty Seven.
It is phrased in a most unusual way.
If your Lordships would look at sub-section one, the members of the police authority are referred to in section three A er or one B or er one A-B of this Act, shall be persons appointed by the Secretary of State from a list of persons compiled in accordance with an Order made by the Secretary of State.
Now I've never seen a provision like that put forward for legislation before.
Er Noble Lords er know a good precedent erm y you just  but I've never seen one before  and erm  so far  of course perhaps I'm being unfair as there hasn't been the opportunity to do so, but so far we have had no explanation from the Government as to how that list i it is proposed shall be compiled 
but how ever it is compiled it would run contrary to the principles which my Noble Friend Lord Motterstone and my Noble Friend Lord Rippon have already stated and would  stated in all parts of the House.
Therefore er I, I do feel that there's a the Government have a very great difficulty over this matter, I'm a keen and sympathetic supporter of the Government as all My Lords know, but on this occasion I do think that we would be entitled to ask them to think a again and to do so on this matter.
Hear!
Hear!
Lords I rise to support  the Amendments move by Lord MacIntosh of Haringey  which I believe are fundamental to the future policing of this country.
May I first say that I am sorry in fact that local authorities and police authorities are being separated in the way clause two proposes.
I was brought up in the days of the old Police Acts.
As an Assistant Chief Constable I was serving a pr er I'm sorry  in the line of a city watch committee in Birmingham.
I was subsequently Chief Constable of the combined Sheffield and Rotherham Police Force which whilst a joint committee, still regarded so very much as serving the two separate authorities and finally I was Chief in a Metropolitan country, with a county council and a police committee and I'm quite sure that the police were much more sensitive to the needs and the wishes of their local communities when you were sitting at one of those, not necessarily police committee meetings, but the county council meetings, when they discussed the minutes of the police authority.
You certainly knew what they thought about the way you were going about your job as Chief Constable.
But I accept and understand that there are  some feelings today that the old system dated back from those Victorian days as it did, is in need of reform and should be brought up-to-date.
Indeed, the first moves in this direction occurred in 1986 of course, when as Noble Lords will recall the Metropolitan counties or at least their county councils were abolished and police authorities were created for the same areas as freestanding corporate bodies.
They precept on the constituent district councils and they receive direct grant from Government and the problems encountered in Derbyshire where the county council reduced the budget approved by the police authority have been quite eliminated and that My Lords is the only reasons that I have been able to trace so far  for amending the law as this Bill proposes.
Nothing else need to have been done to overcome the current problems which the Home Secretary has been facing in the last year or two.
These Metropolitan County Councils erm I beg Your Lordships pardon, these Metropolitan County Authorities are composed entirely of councillors, representative districts and magistrates.
I believe they have proved to be responsible bodies, who have worked well with their Chief Constables and the local authorities their members represent and they are proud of the forces they are providing.
They differ from the authorities now being proposed in that the local authority representatives currently are clearly in the majority and I have no doubt My Lords that the authorities in consequence see their loyalties lying towards the district councils and the communities that they represent.
In turn, the district councils regard the police forces they provide as their police  an extremely important factor when considering the reduction of crime.
There is considerable evidence to show that it is partnerships between the various departments of local authorities, voluntary agencies and the police working together which are most likely to curb crime and improve the quality of life in c in local communities.
If that is to happen however, I believe My Lords that it is essential that local authorities should feel that they have a real contribution to make in the policing of their areas.
Equally I believe that local communities too must feel that the police are  to them if they are to give the positive help which the police need to successfully detect and prosecute the criminals who prey on them.
I suggest that is not likely to happen however if the police authorities come to be regarded as accountable to Whitehall, rather than the Town Hall.
Hear!
Hear!
And I suggest also that it is a very valuable discipline for the police to have to say to themselves when deciding policy matters, I wonder what they will think about this at the Council House.
Whitehall is much too remote to create that same sensitivity.
I am not persuaded either My Lords that the inclusion of nominated members with special skills will add very much to the police authorities decision making, bearing in mind the experience already there, which has been referred to earlier in this debate.
Indeed I wonder whether they will have the time to perform all the many tasks taken on by police authority members, including lay-visiting of police cells  attending national committees on a number of subjects or local consultative bodies, there's a whole list of duties and responsibilities which members of police authorities undertake.
Certainly the minimum of one-and-a-half days per month envisaged by the Home Office as being all that will be required, it seems to me to be very wide of the mark.
I agree with the Lord  of Aberdale that it is vital for the elected representatives on the police authority to be clearly seen to be in the driving seat of the committee.
It is a view I believe which is held by everyone connected with policing at local level and additionally, the continuation of the tripartite system with its essential checks and balances on the activities of the three parties involved and My Lords that is the real importance and value of the tripartite system that depends on the local authorities being seen to be in the driving seat.
I therefore support Amendment Numbers Five, Eight and Eleven moved by Lord MacIntosh of Haringey.
Hear!
Hear!
My Lords, I very much hope that my Noble friend Lord Fellows, the Minister will feel able to  er take the advice of my Noble friend Lord Wrenton er for a particular er and it is not quite the same reason as his.
Er My Lords I do not see within this  of amendments the answers that we want, I see two or three narrow misses.
We have to answer an er your Lordships are in danger of getting into the mood of treating this debate as a  charge with a single issue to be decided on a single voter.
We have actually four questions and three subordinate questions which we were addressing and only one of them has been resolved so far and that is whether the Chairman of the Police Authority should be appointed by the Home Secretary or by the Authority and we are I think all have to agree that it should be by the latter.
But My Lords the next question is should the membership of the Authority be as it traditionally has been or should it contain some members recruited from a wider constituency.
Now the Noble Lord, Lord Merlyn Reece and one or two other have argued against that, but I think on the  Your Lordships would feel that there should be a wider constituency, that being so should these recruits be secured by co-option, by appointment, or by some other way.
My Lords, er the principle of co-option has been described as by a number of Your Lordships as an extension of principal of democracy, but I call on my experience not as er of a year as er Minister for the Police under my Noble Friend Lord Whitelaw, but my three years as Minister for the Prison Service er and er in that er service, there was erm in each prison a Board of Prison Visitors and I observed during that time that the membership of the prison population was becoming increasingly black, but that the membership of the er Boards of Prison Governors was remaining stubbornly white and I er  put it, I made it then that I thought there should be something to redress this balance er  the system is as it were a supervised co-option, the local er Board makes a proposal and the Minister approves or doesn't, but also I had to refuse five successive of proposed co-options of white members to an all-white prison board for a prison which was predominantly black in population because it was alleged there were no suitable black people available.
My Lords,i in effect I had a Power of Appointment and in effect it was very badly needed.
Er I therefore think that there should be a process by which the Secretary of State can be involved in getting people on to the police authority, but My Lords should those erm er people be in a position at any time to be the majority or the predominant voice on the authority.
Now the Amendment that has been proposed for this and  and the Noble Lord, Lord  erm Amendment erm  I think it's Eleven, yes, er proposes something of this nature, but it doesn't like co-option.
My Lords, I don't think co-option is satisfactory under these circumstances er I think my erm th the Noble Lord has a good route er has a good number but a bad route and that my Noble Friend is in the position to propose a good route er if he will get the right number.
I don't see that in any combination of these Amendments, I very much hope that my Noble Friend will come back at the report stage with our grateful thanks for having found a process which will produce a body of co of o of appointed members on the police authorities of a position to influence but not to determine his policy and that should be an a position, I agree with my Noble Friend, Lord Motterstone subordinate to that of the magistrates.
My Lords, I er apologise first of all that I was not able to hear some of the earlier speeches in this Debate  erm but it does seem to me a most interesting Debate and I have to confess that I always become slightly uneasy er when the great and the good, and I suppose we should collectively cast ourselves in that role of being the great and good of the establishment are all of one view and I wonder whether it is necessarily right  and so I begin to question er whether your Lordships enthusiasm for many of these amendments and their attack upon the Government's proposals is necessarily as soundly based as we might think if we just listen to casually to it all.
I think  I think My Lords, I think my Lords if I may say so
he's only been f here for half of the Debate, under those circumstances since he can't have heard all the arguments, it's a bit rich for him to call us casual.
Hear!
Hear!
My Lords, I didn't mean no offence in, in that matter.
but, but I think we should be just a little careful  in accepting this cavalry charge as it has been described too easily.
Let me put it this way, and I think this may please the Noble Lord MacIntosh, there are moments when this House is in danger of being too conservative.
I think that we should accept  th that this island in which we live is in effect becoming smaller day-by-day, as it is becoming more and more open  er we should accept that its population is becoming perhaps with the assistance of a little advice from myself from time-to-time, rather more mobile than it used to be  and  I must say that  we should I think all accept and I'm sure we do that criminals do not have any particular respect for local authority boundaries  er indeed the existence of the motorway system er despite the M25 does encourage mobility of crime and criminals to a very great extent.
I think too that we should reflect upon who it is  that receives the blame er when policing falls below the standards which we would all think appropriate.
We seldom read in the tabloid press local police force fails  er we may frequently read in the local press in the tabloid press rather, that the Home Secretary has failed  and yet what we seem to be saying is that we believe that all the responsibility should be local, all that responsibility, all the blame when things go wrong should go to the Home Secretary.
I have some sympathy for the Home Secretary in these matters, he is not an Officer of State who over-occupies the position for whom I normally have a great deal of sympathy I must confess, er but on this occasion I do have some sympathy.
I think we tend to forget that we are willing to trust  the Lord Chancellor  and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, who in recent years has most usually doubled as the Chairman of the Conservative Party  a very dubious appointment no doubt in the minds of many er of er your Lordships House.
Those too have been doubled and we are we trust them to appoint the magistrates upon whom we praise such responsibility and on whom we shall have such great praise.
Er we trust if the post is doubled in the way it has frequently been in recent years and indeed was in my case, the Chancellor of the Duchy in brackets also as the Chairman of the Conservative Party to maintain the dignitary of the magistracy to make sure that there is a firm balance amongst magistrates who are appointed.
In terms of er political views, or even those who have no political views, of ethnic make-up and everything of this kind  and yet now it seems that at a time when our police forces above all, need to move into the present day and prepare themselves for the challenges of the crime and the criminals at the end of this century and into the next century, we seem to have some misgivings  about giving the Home Secretary the powers which are placed in this Bill.
I do not believe those powers would be of use My Lords  I er take the view that they would not have been abused by past Home Secretaries, no not by men like  the late Tutor Reed or the Noble Lord Jenkins or the Noble Lord Callaghan, they would not be abused today  by my Right Honourable Friend Mr Howard, I doubt if they would be abused by Mr Blair should he at some time become Home Secretary and I think we're becoming slightly attached to an artificial argument  that somehow or the other there is great respect for the local authorities, but which is not extended to the National Institutions of Government and to the Home Office and the Home Secretary.
I doubt if that is so  I think to some extent we may be in what we are saying and doing, feeding the current  which says that nobody in national politics could conceivably be honest or decent or competent in any way whatsoever, that to be a Member of the House of Commons or to be a Member of the Government is somehow to have the mark of  put upon them.
I think we would be wise to reflect a little longer and to think that perhaps the Government is not so far wrong in what it is saying and I have to say finally My Lords that I never in my public life, or indeed in my private life have met anybody who has said to me  that their attitude towards their local police force has been in any way influenced by the fact that the members of the police authority were or weren't democratically elected.
I think that is an absolute fantasy  and I think that it is er perhaps going too far in our denigration of members of local authorities to think their attitude towards their police force would be in any way changed, were some of the members to be appointed from a list which had been drawn up by the Home Secretary.
I think if I may say so My Lords, we're becoming slightly over-excited.
My Lords, before the Noble Lord sits down, perhaps I could ask him to remember, he was saying s how, how splendidly the Lord Chancellor and the Chancellor of the Duchy appointed magistrates and I entirely agree, but they appoint them, not from a list that they've constructed themselves, they appoint them because the keepers of the roles for respective counties propose names to them which they very carefully er selected by the very special and an an and complicated process of of er of er of of examination of people whose names come forward, I find in my case that only one-third of the people whom I interview for this purpose with my Committee er are the ones which I've I  propose.
That's quite different from Amendment Number Twenty Seven.
I, I take My Noble Friend's point indeed, but I think nonetheless er that er I have to say that there is a degree that we put it this way of understanding of how the process works rather more informally than the manner in which my Noble Friend has put it.
My Lords, I right in support I rise and support of Amendments Five, Eight and Eleven in the name of Lord MacIntosh of Haringey.
As a Magistrate I think I  should advise the Noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, that most crime is indeed local based, despite the prevalence of bicycles in this upwardly mobile society of ours.
As a member of a police authority, I welcome the fact the Government has withdrawn its earlier ill-judged proposal, that authority Chairman should be appointed by Home Sec by the Home Secretary and that the size of authority should be standardised  but the other main thrust of the Government's proposal remains, namely the balance and composition of authorities and these points are of the gravest constitutional importance.
Firstly balance, how can it be right that in future authorities,future authority should be evenly balanced between elected and non-elected members.
As My Noble Friend Lord Allen has already pointed out today, suppose two elected members are ill or on holiday, and natural enough assumption taken over the years, are important decisions to be taken by that authority in such a situation?
It seems far to reconcile with any concept of a local democracy  and what exactly is wrong with the present composition of authorities.
I sit on an authority  they are very tiresome at times  they make mistakes at times  rather like Governments My Lords  but at the end of the day that surely is what democracy is all about isn't it?
I'm not against the concept of co-opted members and I believe that they could add a useful dimension to any authority's work, but apart from the obligatory brace of businessmen and I accept the Right Honourable and Noble Viscount Lord Whitelaw's phrase and I quote powerful reference to a broad approach and new ideas and a fight against crime, but apart from the  the brace er, er of such business people, they should surely come from representative sections of those communities which the authorities serve.
For example I can see a good case for a local headmaster being a member of the authority, representing educational concerns or for some representations say from significant ethnic groups within the area, but these can be identified and appointed by the authorities themselves, whose local knowledge will lead to far more accurate selection than Whitehall or Whitehall inspired sources.
Perhaps unsurprisingly the Government remains coy about firstly who really is going to pick these appointees for consideration by the Home Secretary?
Is it to be the Lord Lieutenant  of the County?
Is it to be the Chairman of the Local Chamber of Commerce?
Is it to be er a local representative of the C B I?
And secondly, and very much wrapped up in the same point with this, they're also coy about the sort of people they're looking for.
It really won't do to talk airily about businessmen and business women as if emergency pools of these super-executives exist all over the country, ready to plug the numerous gaps left by the incompetence of Noddy and know-nothing councils that are councillors and magistrates.
Erm I must confess to doubting whether such a pool of talent exists and I share the views er of the Noble Lord, Lord Motterstone who in a very powerful and commonsense speech made this point an and a number of other ones, but I have to say that what I do think exists is the temptation to create posts for friends of the Government, a process of which has been going for far too long  and I mem and I wonder if er members on the other side would defend this position as my Noble Friend Lord Allen said earlier, quite sincerely if, say, another party were in power  before when such a time arrives it will then be of little avail for them to run around complaining, for they will have sown the seeds of their own dissatisfaction.
Hear!
Hear!
My Lords, er, er, er no doubt that all of your Lordships have throughout the last hour and forty minutes felt a great deal of sympathy with the Noble Earl Lord 
Hear!
Hear!
since he came to our Lordships House with some very  and has had to sit this thing ever since then with one exception er to speeches deeply and seriously critical er of the  proposals er coming from Members of your Lordships House mostly with vast experience of the subject matter former Secretary's er er former Chief Constable er and er so many others and I arise only to put one point to you  if my Noble Friend decides to resist these amendments, it seems to me  I may be wrong  but it seems to me overwhelmingly clear that they will be carrying against him and they will be put into the Bill which will be very considerably altered and amended, some of your Lordships may think improved, but certainly drastically altered and I wonder whether er my Noble Friend thinks that really would be helpful from the point of view either of the pr future progress of the Bill, or the position of the Government.
Er I very much hope so er that my Noble Friend will recognise what does seem to be the prevailing view in this House on, on your all quarters and all parties and  er and will indicate that on most of the points of controversy, not just the  but most of them, the Government is prepared to think again, he may even feel that it might be prudent to defer further consideration of the committee stage of this Bill er after today's sitting er er for a little time and when discussions could and should take place between those who hold different views and er his own very considerable power conciliation er could be used.
I therefore put it to him that he has really now er a definite choice, he can seek to resist most of these amendments and I haven't a slightest doubt they'll be put into the Bill er the Bill will be drastically altered thereby er and when it goes back to another place nobody quite knows er wh what will happen to it, or he can use his very considerable powers of conciliation er by taking a little time for further consideration.
At any rate some of these points I speak as one who was as your Lordships know is on the whole a fairly  loyal supporter  of the Government.
Hear!
Hear!
but I I I I'm very much obliged too.
See that I carry your Lordships 
er and therefore for that very reason do not like to see the Government going in for a whole series of embarrassing defeats er and erm getting into very grave difficulties with an important Bill and I therefore arise only to ask my Noble Friend er at the last minute would like to consider very seriously erm a conciliatory reply of whether accepting er the amendments with er or er or some of them er with er er er view to their reconsideration or asking those who propose them to  defer them from to from today's sitting, there's still further sittings ahead, but whether he was prepared to ask them to give him a chance to reflect without incurring serious Government defeats to reflect further on whether further amendments cannot and should not be made.
My own humble advice to him and I d do it  humility, because he's a very experienced Minister,be very wise and I think serve the interest of the Government in which he's a member, if he has opted the latter course.
My Lord  Minister
Minister.
My Lords,M My Lords  er th the er I think it might be helpful if I were to make a an intervention at this moment, it wouldn't stop my Noble Friends er from making it er er an intervention later, later on.
My Lords erm  I was deeply appreciative of er the my Noble Friend, Lord Boyd-Carpenter insofar as he said that he felt sympathy for me.
I think that was the first person who said and I wasn't aware that anyone else  felt it
But the fact that my Noble Friend was kind enough to express it er I found was er nectar for myself.
My Lords I I'm  to say that this is of course erm a very controversial area and it is quite frank that it should be controversial too.
When my Noble Friend er produced the Bill of the first er er case and it went er came to secondary reading, your Lordships did explain in no uncertain terms of the various matters about which your Lordships were concerned.
Er my Noble my Right Honourable Friend did take account of that and he did agree that hereafter the appointment of the Chairman should not be an appointment made by the Home Secretary, but that shou he should be one made by the full authority and that has I'm glad to say met with  with approval.
There was also then great concern that the appointment of erm  er of independent members  apparently was seen as a way of my Right Honourable Friend or anyone who then er held the office of er Ho Home Secretary would actually put in his own .
That was a very real concern and my Right Honourable Friend has er tried to allay that concern by saying all right, er we we will have er an independent body of people who will undertake this selection and they will er off offer a short list o of candidates er to the Home Secretary to appoint, but  the Noble Lord, Lord Callaghan er of Cardiff said that er that this was taking powers through the s to the Home Secretary increasing his powers enor enormously and actually of course if anyone is going to be appointed as an independent  member, somebody's actually got to do the appointing.
Doesn't matter whether it's the er whether it's the person who does the short list or whether it's the Home Secretary himself or whether it's the other members of the authorities such as the Noble Lord, Lord MacIntosh would prefer in his amendment.
Somebody's actually got to do the appointing if you have the, the er er er i i independent members and I don't think it's u is unreasonable for my Right Honourable Friend to say that the Home Secretary should do that er provided that he is not seen to have been taking an overtly political view.
Quite frankly My Lords, if there are forty-one constabularies throughout the c country e excluding the Metropolitan Police and the City of London Police, any for instance fifty people were a applied and they may well apply because plenty of people have already done so, you would be talking about a list of some two thousand people it's quite impossible to think that my Honourable Friend would know all these two thousand people therefore carefully select party hats who might themselves not actually have applied anyhow.
So I think that what he has done is to try and meet the concerns which your Lordships have  have expressed er i in second reading  My Lords er I did think if I might say so with the greatest of respect for the Noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich whom I admire en enormously and not for er only for his views which erm depending upon what the views are er that it depends upon my extended admiration 
but also of course for the way in which he always put it.
We did get through some pretty hot language, erm he did say that this would destroy the tripartite system and he quoted me and said that I said it was a system which was the end of the world.
That's perfectly true, it is a system of the end of the world and my only consc my only complaint is that I don't think that what my Right Honourable Friend is suggesting is in fact a destruction of the tripartite system.
He said it would be politicise police forces and he said that this vote would be a momentous decision because it w th the Bill will do grievous damage to policing in this country and we must remove the repugnant decisions from the Bill, but I alw I did think actually that was fairly extravagant language.
What are we actually talking about?
We are talking about the tripartite system, the Home Secretary, the Police Authority and the Chief Constable.
That as it were milkman's stool with three legs and each of them has a certain amount of power and it is a question of the adjustment of that power and it is not the  of the power to my Right Honourable Friend, the Home Secretary and yet when things go wrong, and they do, in police forces and in local auth police authorities, what happens, people turn round to the Home Secretary and say what are you going to do about it.
I had it the other day over s some occasion when I had to go on some t television and the reporter said what's the Home Secretary gonna do about it.
Well actually this is a matter for the police authorities and despite the fact that the Noble Lord, Lord Callaghan had said this is a centralising measure and er and a number of other Noble Lords have, have said er s similar things, what my Right Honourable Friend is trying to do is to give down to local authorities more power, more responsibility and not to keep that r responsibility to himself.
Now My Lords I realise that some of your Lordships say well that's not gonna happen, but if if I could  come to one other point My Lords, where I think there is fairly, fairly universal a agreement  and that is on the whole smaller organisations work better and if you have a police authority for instance of thirty or forty people, that's not a very handy body of people to work with and if it's smaller it is better.
Well quite obviously if you are going to curtail something like that, some of those who had been on the police authorities will now find that they are not on the police authority and therefore that causes understandable anxiety and therefore rumpus.
If on top of that you say well let us have some independent people to some others who were elected councillors will find that they are not also on the police authority and that causes problems.
But My Lords the idea that independent people is news  nonsense for the last thirty years so we've had independent people on the police authorities by the  of the magistrates and there's nothing new in that.
What we were trying to say is there is actually a place and my Right Honourable Friend thinks that there is and indeed so do I, for people to contribute to the problem of policing in their locality who haven't necessarily for one reason or another and my Noble Friend Lord Whitelaw said, decided not to erm be on the police authority, maybe they haven't had time, maybe there hasn't been their, their particular  but nevertheless they do know and they do care about their locality and they have got a er er a contribution to make and we think that that would actually improve the local the police authorities, provided that they are not in an overwhelming position and that is the reason why we've suggested that eight erm t er, er, er o of a police authority of sixteen, eight should be councillors in the majority, five should be independents and three should be er er er magistrates  and My Lords and then of course the complaint was ah, but then some people may not be properly represented and the number ought to be larger.
My Right Honourable Friend has taken that point and said yes, he agrees, that there will be circumstances when the police authority ought to be larger  erm er and er that he would agree to that.
If you accept the amendment of er Noble Lord, Lord MacIntosh, he would say it set an upper and a lower limit o o of the size of erm o of police authority and the chances are then that the number will gradually i inflate so that it's always the highest number, that is that is obtained.
My Lords  er  the  the er  th the point r really abou about all this I think is a fairly, a fairly simple one that we are agreed I think in general, that police authorities are better if they are smaller and the real point that is concerning er N 
Noble Lords is whether my Right Honourable Friend i is taking too much er er power to use an unpleasant word and I think actually a wrong word er i in the appointment of those who have been selected by a different and an independent system.
Noble Lord, Lord Callaghan says and I might say so, slightly mischievously, well after all he's going to appoint the appointers and  going to make the short list, short list for the Right My Right Honourable Friend to appoint, but of course somebody's got to appoint the appointers and er that would be done by the by my Right Honourable Friend, but that doesn't mean to say for goodness sake that they're in his pocket.
My Lords erm I'm, I'm in a, a difficulty over this, because I think that er I er er  your Lordships  much.
The difficulty is I want to try and be helpful erm er  er my Right Honourable Friend has, has made a number of conceptions and we have er put down in my name a number of these amendments to the Bill in order to try and meet those very concessions and those the anxieties which your Lordships have  have expressed.
I equally don't want to sail into something that is er pretty undesirable and as my Noble Friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter says if we do that then almost certainly  I don't know I may be completely wrong, I've got enormous faith in the my Right Honourable from my Noble Friend the Chief Whip and even more f faith in all my friends beh behind me whom I know will er go in, in the right direction because they think  so erm superb, but My Lords er  I would obviously like to see whether there is any way in which we can  bridge this divide.
Now I dunno whether it is possible, it may well be that it isn't possible er my Right Honourable Friend has er certain views and er and er as my Noble Friend Lord erm Lord Rippon said, it's very difficult to make erm major er  very difficult to make radical alterations without actually causing some anxiety somewhere.
Now, erm my Right Honourable Friend is very keen to see these alterations which we ha which he has proposed erm become erm to to take effect, because he thinks that they are right and because a great deal of effort has gone into get it right.
Equally, My Lords it is very important that we should try and see if there are ways in which we can meet the anxieties of Noble Lords.
Now it seems to me in some respects the gulf is pretty wide and therefore can only do that if Noble Lords are good enough to try and sort of meet the divide.
I'm quite happy to see if we can what we can do, I can't guarantee that my Right Honourable Friend will take a different view, but I'm content to see what we can do and report if your Lordships think that that is suitable, but if we were to do that My Lord, I think it would mean  erm er  it would mean that all these amendments which are grouped together should not in fact be, be put t to the vote, I mean that means ever er er all your Lordships because I don't think it would be very fair if I were to say that I would move mine and the Noble Lord, Lord MacIntosh were c to come along and move his  amendment and mine meanwhile has gone down the drainpipe and I don't think that that would be particularly funny, but the Noble Lord, Lord MacIntosh I'm sure wouldn't do such a dastardly thing like that!
I hope!
Er, er so I I I'm prepared to try and see if  if we can meet  the anxieties or at least some of them.
I can't give any guarantee whatsoever that we will, but at least we will try and if that were to meet with your Lordships approval, then er I would be content to go on that basis.
Hear!
Hear!
My Lords er that clearly is a very serious contribution to the Debate which has to be taken very seriously indeed, er an but I before er responding directly to the er er invitation from the er Minister, I, I just want to summarise very briefly what I think has been the outcome o of this Debate.
We have had erm apart from er the er  er apart from the Minister himself, we have had fourteen speeches.
Of those fourteen speeches er  er  er only the Noble Lord, Lord Tebbit who was only here for half of the Debate has supported er er the idea that there should not be a local authority majority on the Debate.
In on the erm er the police authority the Noble Viscount Lord Whitelaw was silent on this issue.
Er on the issue as to whether there should be co-option or appointment of additional members er only again Lord Tebbit, Lord Whitelaw and Lord Payton tacitly because of his amendments er have supported appointment rather than co-option.
In every other case, Noble Lord er, er, erm there were then three Noble Lords, er Lord Wrenton, Lord Elton and Lord Boyd-Carpenter who urged this question  on the Government  er Lord er Elton specifically er er er preferred appointment to co-option er but he also preferred erm a local authority majority on, on the poli police authority.
If I, if I may then just ex expand that very very briefly, er we have er  er Lord, Lord Whitelaw's silent on the local authority majority but in favour of appointment.
Lord Payton in favour of a local authority majority, but moving amendments er in favour of appointment.
Er Lord Allen in favour of co-option and a local authority majority.
Lord Harris in favour of a er a local authority majority er and co-option.
Lord Rippon in favour of a local authority majority and co-option.
Lord Callaghan in favour of a local authority majority and co-option.
Lord Motterstone in favour of a local authority majority and co-option.
Lord Mervyn Rees in favour of a local authority majority and corrupt and co-option.
Lord Knights in favour of a local authority majority and co-option.
Er Lord Elton in favour of a local authority majority.
Lord Tenby in favour of a local authority majority and c and co-option.
My Lords, under those circumstances it is quite clear that the thinking which the Minister has offered us has got to cover those particular issues
Hear!
Hear!
It has got to be explicit that the issue of a local authority majority and of co-option rather than the appointment is on the agenda for discussion between now 
Hear!
Hear!
and er report stage and I invite the Minister to confirm that er that is that is the position and that the Government will not enter any discussions with a closed mind on those issues.
Hear!
Hear!
My Lords, I think if I might say so that the Noble Lord, Lord MacIntosh is being slightly unfair and slightly hard over that.
What I have said that I would do is to consider what your Lordships have said to see if there is any way in which we can meet the problem.
Noble Lord, Lord MacIntosh was going to say, well now you've got to do this and you've gotta to that and you've got to do the other.
You can't start like that, I'm prepared to consider the matters which have been suggested by your Lordships th this afternoon to see if there is a way in which we can er meet that point.
Of course I heard I've heard all the arguments about co-opting, but I'll tell the Noble Lord, Lord MacIntosh this that who's going to do the co-opting, those who are already on the police authority 

I says, oh she'll give me a little nod like.
He says, well I'll give you little nod I want sex!
She says 
I says yeah but  I wanna help Kath out cos she's helped me out.
What does she want?
I dunno!
I says.
Oh!
Has Jacqueline gone?
Yeah.
She seemed alright when she left.
She were alright when she were with me today.
Yeah.
It's  she never attempted to go  she just wandered all round till she met me
Yeah.
Then I says to her  eh up duck!
I says, eh up!
I said, what you doing right up here?
She says, I'm looking for you.
I says, well I picked them forms for you and everything.
Yeah.
I said, but I'm gonna fetch them back.
I says 
Yeah.
drop them off at our house, I said, and fetch them back like.
Yeah.
So, she says, oh it don't matter.
She says er  will you help me fill them in now?
I says, can I ask you a question?
She says what?
I says, these forms things, I says  d'ya know how to fill them in?
She says 
Ah.
no.
She said, somebody's always done it for me.
Annette's done them.
Well, apparently, they must of done it.
Cos I said 
Yeah.
to Steve on t' phone, I says, I helped her fill all the forms in, you don't mind do you?
I says, because 
Mm.
she didn't know.
I says 
Yeah.
has she never filled them in before?
Yeah.
So he says no, when I've been there I've always done it.
Yeah.
So, I, cos I had to do talking for her and all!
I says, they asked her age of kids and, that.
Yeah.
And she forgot.
I says,and she forgot !
I says, I had to tell them they were three and one year old.
Yeah.
Anyway, er  they were talking to her, they explained about  that money
Yeah.
and  is your Steve, he must have thought she'd come back here with me.
Yeah.
And  he's been in contact, he's after them 
or summat
Yeah.
and  he's been and gorrit, he's took his half  and it's going,i cos I thought I'll come to your house and tell you in front 
Yeah.
of Bill.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That it were coming down and then 
Yeah.
if she says it's not, then 
Yeah.
Bill will say, well hang on a minute!
I know it come down because Kath come over, you know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I thought well, I'll take pot luck and hope she's 
Yeah.
at your house.
That's 
Yeah.
why I come straight across.
Yeah.
But he hadn't put  
He never  to my house.
Cos he knew his dad were there.
Well, he'd seen her with me hadn't he?
Mm.
So he automatically thought  she'll have gone home.
She never left me  at all!
Never left me!
Cos I thought well if you were me  
She just says, I didn't like  he walks past.
I says to her 
They're only ninety nine pence!
Yeah I know.
She says, I didn't feel th right about taking, I says, well when you get yourself straightened out, I says, if you pop into town and Kath's in town, you bump into her, I said take her for one of them meals.
They're only ninety nine pence!
Yeah but  she's  she's like that.
Oh!
I made her.
First of all, I says to her  I'm gonna have a sandwich.
She had that little bottle of pop.
Oh!
Yeah, I know.
Look what I found.
They left it on Doug's wall, I had to tell you after cos er
Oh!
Right.
I've had her in stitches!
I forgot about that.
I meant to pick it up.
You've had who?
Jackie?
Yeah.
Why?
On Sunday I put some sprouts on, right  and  doing summat, I forgot all about the bloody things!
And I burnt them.
So 
Has she burnt sprout again!
Yeah but, it was only on the bottoms of some of them so I said cut the bits off and er, I shut the door to, and Bill said, why are you shutting the door?
I says, I don't want the burglar alarm, the smoke alarm going off.
So I'm cutting them all off, put them in some fresh water again.
Right?
Yeah.
And he says, I got a lot of sprouts!
A o they turn me off!
He were being silly !
I didn't want bloody burnt sprouts!
So, and he eat it all!
Did he?
Mm.
He eat it all.
And I'm telling Jackie about this, I says, d'ya know, I says, I must be getting bloody worse!
See to, the liver and bacon casserole stuff
Yeah.
got the cabbage, and the taters  crucified!
You burnt them again?
I burnt the taters!
She went flying upstairs!
You did that!
She went flying up the garden!
Did she?
She said, honest!
Honest!
I did.
And anyway, I said, you put the bloody mockers on me!
Did she have her tea before she went out like?
Did she have summat to eat?
No.
No.
She must have been full.
She's gonna do meatballs and er  hot dogs for the kids.
Do two tins 
Oh!
Yeah.
you know, and she'll have some of them.
Cos I says to her, I says, do you want a turkey sandwich  and well, there was only like a quarter of a tin left.
We only had it at half past twelve.
Yeah.
Cos I hung on, and hung on 
Unless she's took three quarters of turkey back.
Has she?
Yeah.
I says, well you can make some sandwiches while they're  you're making a dinner like.
Yeah.
If they ain't had nowt to eat.
So she says er, do I have to go that thing tomorrow?
I says, well no, not if you're gonna get that money.
She says, ooh!
I'll go and buy a bag of coal and some more milk.
She has to if the money ain't arrived.
Well that's what she'll probably do.
She'll have to come back up and see me.
Yeah.
If she comes back up
She'll get it off of Ray.
Is she 
Give it her.
er, you see, he never said owt he just says, I'm gonna put it in an envelope and get it down to her  but he never said how.
Yeah.
He'll probably get  what's his name?
Who?
Er  tt  him!
Which him?
Him that lived on caravan site?
That's him!
I don't know his name.
I don't.
I forgot it.
I've had some bad news.
Why?
He says what's the date?
Says the thirtieth.
This is shit!
So I says, what's the matter?
He says, no it don't matter.
So I says, come on!
What's the matter?
He says, I don't know if there's gonna be any money in the bank out of my wages tomorrow.
Oh!
And you're not gonna get no housekeeping?
No.
I says, nothing?
He says, if wo if I can get, he's go I mean he's got to get some sleep  so he says, well I'll get up about twelve or one and says, and then I'll go down there.
Mm.
Cos he don't want me going there cos I fell arse over tip earlier!
My leg's just going like weak.
Well you got that thing on your chest haven't 
Yeah.
you?
Anyway, he says er  we'll not be able to manage.
I says, we will.
Course you will!
I'll buy you a sack 
I jus 
of taters!
You can have that.
A sack of taters!
No, I meant  
But bloody useless chuffing taters!
The one I've got's alright.
I always get reds.
I've got them from down there.
They're crap!
I always get reds.
Always get reds.
I ain't stopping too long tonight cos I'm gonna definitely watch  an Home, not an Home and Away, a Neighbours cos I don't know what 
I'm watching 
the bloody hell's happening!
I ain't seen it.
Oh!
So
Er
Just hang on a sec.
I can still hear you.
Well where you going?
I'm gonna put kettle on.
I'm gonna have a wee.
Oh!
. I'm always standing on them!
Yeah.
Always do 
But did Steve seem alright?
Yeah!
Great!
I seen him in town and er
He bought me .
hey up Kath!
Are you alright?
I wanna be.
Went over the doctors for them and said, can I help?
And then er  Jacqueline put her head down.
And then J J and shouts, I told her!
I've never met J J.
And just, she just put her head down and walked by.
Mm.
So I don't know.
but, but he said he paid the way  she must have worked it so that he 
he , cos I never saw her  he just said  to say are you alright?
Ah.
er  they walked past .
Hey up Kath!
Are you alright?
Oh!
So she said  she never cottoned on.
Yeah,sh she could have gone with him.
I dunno.
She said er, didn't notice what she looked like?
I said, well I couldn't see her very well.
And left it at that!
Ah.
I thought that's one way to do.
It's too cold to stand in there.
Yeah.
You know  unfortunately
Bill says  you know, after you left.
Cos,th sa the moment he walked in the door, I'm still awake when he come to bed.
Are you?
And I thought, well I'm not 
Don't you go to sleep at all?
Yeah.
I'd had about  as soon as he come to bed I cuddled up to him  and I got up at ten to eleven.
What well are you thinking about?
Erm
It ain't no money and that?
No!
It's, that and all  is chuffing cold!
I bet them kids are cold com walking down that road.
I hope to God nobody's acce a you know, going down the road and
Yeah.
somebody's mugged her or
mugged,yo my mind goes wa works overtime.
You think all sorts, yeah.
I hope 
But 
them kids don't 
she apologized!
She says, I'm ever so sorry for coming up at that time she says, but I did notice Maggie's light weren't on that's 
Yeah.
why I answered you 
Yeah.
you know.
And, she says, because if your light ha hadn't of been on she were going straight home.
If it hadn't of been for Steve's car breaking down and him having 
Mm.
to jump the battery and everything 
Yeah.
would have been alright.
So, but they're alright.
But Bill said they 
She had summat to eat.
Yeah.
And she had a drink and that.
She had a laugh with our Arthur.
He  thumped her!
When he thumped her I'd thought he'd seen her before.
Yeah.
Erm 
Well, you don't have to see him  before do you?
Not with Arthur.
And then he accused her, he says, keep your hand a keep your  knee off my fist!
Oh!
He did.
Keep your knee off my fist!
I says, you cheeky git!
And then they were grilling Jean.
And then he insulted Jean.
I thought, oh great!
Yeah.
Is he in?
I've come to find out 
No.
your problems.
Ain't got none!
But has he talked to ya?
Did I tell ya, I told you what he did last night?
I mean  stupid!
What did he do?
He was mad!
I was not out.
I told you when  
He was mad?
Yeah.
But 
Mm.
you didn't tell me that.
I told you, that's it!
Oh!
He were in this morning  he's er  had summat to eat, well he's made it obvious.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Erm  I come in, and I went upstairs to see if he were in bed or not?
Mm.
Cos he's getting a bo he's Cadets tonight 
Yeah.
like
Yeah.
it don't matter how bad he is, off 
Yeah.
he goes to this stupid Cadets!
Anyway, I come in  ah, I went int kitchen, and I thought oh, there's a loaf out of freezer, and I looked at the loaf but there's only about four sandwiches in it.
I  this morning, I was telling you, he come in  and he says to her, how come you're still awake?
I says oh!
I says, I've been coughing all night.
Well 
Mm.
sort of, but I weren't coughing all night like that.
So  he says, get yourself back to sleep.
I says, I've gotta have a wee.
He says, and then you'll go downstairs for a cup of tea and then you'll  he says, get back into bed!
Sort of, but his tone changed.
So, I says, oh by the way, I said, I just thought I'd tell you  Steven's back with J J  and Jackie called up last night.
I thought 
Yeah.
I'll tell you two things 
What's he say?say?
That's all I told him and then you come in.
Oh!
Well she said she were gonna call and let you know how she got on.
Yeah.
So  it's about  her lass as well.
Cos I said seeing as you've got to go into town tomorrow
Yeah.
I says, don't take your money out the house,a 
Yeah.
because you'll need that to get back in.
Yeah.
And so that's what I were doing you see.
Ah.
I've run out of such a good dog food again!
We had!
I forgot to order it.
Guess what the dog had?
My dog's having bacon and egg and that.
Guess what my dog's had?
Liver.
And 
No.
them taters?
No.
Burnt taters and gravy.
taters and gravy?
A full pound full, and he's wolfed them!
Will he?
Oh!
Chuffing hell!
Oh!
But, he chewed them up!
No, I says to her, I says  Saturday, I says er  if you get stuck, I says  we're supposed to be going to see his nan  into Ashley House up  anyway, I told Bill  I says, eh!
I just thought  just before er, I come over, I says, just thought I says, I  suppose he'll take her over there Saturday won't he?
Well  him doing that job for Sue 
Yeah.
and left it and walked off in the kitchen.
There you are!
You said it all.
Just a bit of this and bit of that.
Ah.
So 
It's better innit?
But  he says her  has Steven told you  anything?
And I says  only that he's gone to back to J J and I says, and  that he'd had enough.
So he says, well he's not married to her.
He's changed his mind again?
No, not like that.
He says, what was it, he says, I says  J J's coming back.
She said, well she's daft!
And  I didn't tell him that he came banging on the bloody door and all that.
And er  what did he say?
He says, oh he'll make up his  we er, same us as, make up his bloody mind but  he's no he's not interested Kath.
He ain't interested in the least!
Like he says the other week, he said
You've got enough problems of your own life 
That's it.
no bugger else's!
I says to Jackie, I says, you come up and see us, I says Jack, but don't push your problems on us.
No.
What I was on about me ringing is, she were talking in town, I says, oh, you know we're Bi I says if ever, I were talking about you first off
She told me.
and did she tell you what I said?
Er  oh, she says er  oh yeah, you've got to ring before you go up to Maggie's  or something 
Cos Bill's on shifts.
Yeah.
That were it.
And you'll know, if he's in bed or owt?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I told her that.
She says, well I'm gonna ring Maggie anyway, she says, to make sure he's not there, she says, cos at the moment
Yeah.
if he's there, she says, it's not fair on Maggie so I'll ring her first.
Yeah.
I'm not going if he's there.
So 
Yeah.
it must be when she's coming.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Anyway, er  she come about  aye, that's what I were on about, I says, d'ya know I feel right sorry for Maggie out the lot of you!
So, he says  she says, why what d'ya mean you feel sorry for Maggie?
I said I feel sorry for Maggie, I says, cos she always ends up in the bloody middle, I says, and she whittles to death, I says, till the minute you get some money to feed them bairns, I says  she'll be awake nearly all night!
I says, and it's not fair on Maggie.
I says, one time she thought she'd lost you and kids.
Mm.
I says, then she gets you back, I says, and now she'll be thinking you're never gonna come down and see her, and this, that, other!
I says, she were just making arrangements to come to your house depending 
Mm.
what shift you were on.
Yeah.
And, she say, oh no!
She says, I won't fall out with Maggie or owt like that.
I says 
Mhm.
well  she'll be thinking that, I says, that's why I feel
Oh!
I, I, well there are you!
I says to her, I says, half past ten Monday morning.
What's that for?
For her to come up.
Oh!
Will 
But 
she see them like?
Dave is
But she's coming Monday?
She's coming Monday.
I says, if it's cloudy  storming, pissing down a rain  don't come down.
No.
She says, well what I'll do is, I'll phone you when I get my 
Yeah.
and let us know if she's coming down or otherwise I shall have to call down there.
Well, I heard you say it were either Monday or Tuesday.
But at least she can get food here 
Leave, what what?
At least she can get a bit of food, even if it's only summat 
Yeah.
summat warm for the kids.
Yeah.
But  he says  you're not upset are you?
I says, no!
I'm not bloody upset.
I says, what have I gotta be upset  you know.
He said I thought if Bill could 
Cos if Bill knows that I get upset over it  he won't have any of them there!
He wouldn't.
No!
So I says, what I have gotta be upset for?
I says, he's gone his way, she's  she's down there.
I'll see her.
Yeah.
And I'll see him.
Yeah.
Er 
chuffing hell!
But I ain't
Well they're alright.
I'm not bothered now.
She's getting some money, and I know for a fact she getting it.
She found her family allowance book.
Yeah.
That were first thing I said to her this morning, I says  d'ya ask 
Yeah.
Maggie?
I says, did you look for it?
She says, yeah, she says, she, I had a look I found it our .
Yeah.
And she says, soon as she gets the money she's gonna  give it to me to give to yous.
I think she might give you it Monday.
That fiver?
Yeah.
I says, don't forget.
She says, oh I'll not forget.
Now, she were a bit upset cos I bought her dinner and that, and she were  weren't too happy cos I paid her bus fare.
Mm.
But I were trying to get through to her.
I thought she were gonna cry!
She looked it didn't she?
No!
Cos she ran up the garden.
Oh!
You know sh hid round the car.
I says, yeah it's you, you've put the bloody mockers on her!
When did she go?
She didn't wanna go.
Er 
Didn't she?
No.
Er  about five minutes before you did the lollipop.
And she was 
looking across to here like, are you gonna call me in?
I don't think she's wants to go home.
D'ya know, that phone has non-stop rung!
It gets worse!
Yeah.
Hello.
Hello.
Hello!
Well  D'ya know  you get daft!
I'll ring you back then.
So ring me back.
Okay?
Okey-cokey.
Bye .
You what?
Ring her back so she can ring you back?
Er, she rings me up to tell me to ring her back up
to ring her back
Yeah.
and then, she tells me to put the phone down, and she rings me back.
So tha that is, mam picks phone up at other end.
Oh!
So 
But she could still pick it up.
Yeah I know.
Can I have this bottle Kath?
What bottle?
That one?
It's only one I've got left.
Mm.
Shouldn't have fetched it.
Hello!
Is Sarah there?
Yes please.
It's Kath.
Yeah.
I saw you at party.
That Kath.
Hello!
Ta duck .
D'ya know, he sounds right like his dad!
That was Dave's dad.
I thought it were Dave!
Oh!
Oh Oh!
I wonder if she's got her inheritance she's   Hello! just talking about you to you Maggie actually Dave.
I were just talking about you to Maggie then.
Have you got your inheritance?
Go on.
Tell me!
Tell me!
Tell me!
You we okay then.
Right.
What?
I told you, this phone drives me nuts!
Because often 
What's that in aid of?
Eh?
Well, she lives with her boyfriend's parents
Yeah.
and it's their phone
Yeah.
but they've had ten pound a week telephone stamps
Yeah.
but she doesn't like ringing.
She likes to ring you  to tell you, to do it
Yeah.
Well go on then.
Hello!you're not gonna do nowt!
You, getting yoursen a pair of boots, and you're put it int bank you said.
Tell her, I want a Ferrari!
Maggie wants a Ferrari.
Yeah.
You want them high interest ones.
Yeah.
I thought  you were gonna spend it then !
What were that?
Yep.
Oh yeah!
Yeah.
And then you're gonna by yoursen a car?
Oh smashing !
And my car?
A what a?
My car .
Oh.
Maggie says you've gotta buy an a car.
An a car .
What's an a car?
Ne'er mind.
Ne'er mind!
How much d'ya get?
Smashing!
I'm pleased for you.
Ya.
Ya.
Ya.
Did you?
Yeah.
To make sure you were you.
Ya.
Oh!
Ya.
Yeah.
Well I don't blame you!
I would.
Why?
Well what's wrong with that?
Ah!
That's not fair.
Yeah.
I'll ask them.
Yeah.
I am, pleased for you.
Course, you've got your thousand of your own.
So you're rich!
You can actually do what you want.
You can sit there and say, I could go so and so if I want, but not bother.
Well  what happened with your dad?
That's a fact!
Did you ask him?
What er, what happened?
Ya.
Ooh!
Sounds like  they had barney.
Dunnit?
Well 
she might.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh!
Well, so long as you're happy.
I'm not on about money, so long as you're happy, yourself.
Yes.
That is a good idea!
There's one thing, if you sleep in, you can jump int car and drive in.
Yeah.
Aha.
Oh smashing!
I like that!
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, she's got plenty of time.
Yeah.
I should hope you are!
Yes.
Oh!
Yeah.
I've been to our Arthur's today.
He says, have you seen Sarah?
I says, yeah, I told her yo told her that you wanted to see her.
He says, I've got a letter here for her you know.
I said, well, you could have told me that to tell her!
I'm still waiting for my cake!
I'll starve to death!
She wants her cake.
Hang on!
Hang on!
Cos he showed me, and then says, I'm sure that's from a bank.
But that's what  that's one of reasons he wanted you to go up cos he's got this letter.
So now you know.
Tell her I'll starve to death, cos I've not had a bit of cake!
That's why I said, it looks like it's from bank.
It's in a white envelope wi you know where you've got that clear plastic thingy  and it's got your name and address?
Well, it's one of them.
Not a thing.
I said it's from bank.
But that's why he wants you to go up, to get your letter.
Well he goes to work at half seven  so if you go before that  you'll be alright.
Have you?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh you're alright.
I'm waiting for Home and Away and that so I can start the tape.
And having a  and having a gossip with Maggie.
Oh yeah!
Tha I got a message.
She says, she's starved to death because she  hadn't had no cake  !
Say, I'm counting my calories for that bit of cake!
And she says, tell her, tough!
And she says, tell you, she's counting the calories for that bit of cake!
Will be a bit an'all.
Tell if she wants 
Eh?
a week off she can have it.
Did your mam  no she didn't, the cake weren't even cut.
Yeah, she did.
Well, you got some.
I would take  well you could still take her some.
Have you?
What you got?
Yeah.
That's a good one!
I like that one.
Well, take her with you today.
What time's  the  thingy?
Good!
It's about time you treated yoursen.
Yeah.
Oh!
Good.
Maggie's got hers bad.
Maggie's right bad!
She's got a funny thing on her chest and she can't breathe properly .
Don't you shove them germs in this house, she's got to come here!
Yeah, well tell her, she can come to my funeral next week cos I've got to do my lollipop tomorrow night!
You can go to her funeral next week 
cos she's got to do my lollipop tomorrow night!
I'm going to collect my winnings tomorrow!
Yeah.
So Maggie's doing lollipop.
You see  i my appointment's at half past two  and  lollipop's at half past three, well I won't be back will I?
It's a two hour presentation.
Well  yeah, half past two  us appointment's for  but Steve's got to put his car int garage to have it wheel bala ba ba balanced 
Balanced 
tomorrow morning.
And, then he's coming home, getting a bath, and we're getting ready and going.
Yes.
He  no he can't, he's got to go to garage at half past nine.
Northbridge.
Well, it's better than five o'clock in the morning int it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ye ah!
Yeah.
Your coffee's cold.
And it has gone cold.
It is cold.
She's saying my coffee's gone cold.
I'll left it open.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're gonna get married.
Oh!
Smashing!
I should hope so!
That's it.
Well you do, that's true.
No.
Not a thing!
Er, he were in all day yesterday  and, then he disappeared this morning.
I went to town, come back and he'd gone.
So I don't know.
So  well, there'll be somebody before weekend!
Yeah.
Oh I hadn't told you he'd met anybody yesterday.
Didn't I?
Anyway, I'll let you finish your dusting and that and er 
Yeah.
Cos I'm gonna see to my Gary.
get watching your Home and Away.
Yeah.
Yes.
Well I'll be in!
No, I've been today.
Okey-cokey.
Let me know what your letter is, it might be a big massive cheque again!
Bye !
Four thousand, one hundred and seventy something.
Ooh!
That's what she got.
So, she didn't do bad did she?
No.
No, I thought I won't cos she 
And it's just an uncle that  give them 
I'll got 
that for you.
I'm gonna get  get on that settee and I ain't moving when I've seen to her.
Ooh!
I've gotta have my Lemsip.
Have you watched your Home and Away yet?
I've watched that.
Ain't much good.
I ain't see any because I were with Jacqueline weren't I?
Mm.
Trouble is, I don't know.
Boring!
Cos I'm on
I did er 
bloody fed up of watching that now!
I want to see what happened, er, it finished just where he says that he'd been accused of something.
Mm.
Yeah.
Taking money when he'd got erm  he accuses him of taking a bribe when 
Thanks!
Oh!
I thought that's what you wanted to know.
I know I want to know, but I'm gonna watch it in a bit!
Oh!
I've seen, that's where it finished!
Oh!
Where he were being accused.
What time's Gary going?
About quarter past.
Mm.
Well she's waiting for Home and Away to come on as well.
Oh!
Cos she's been out in town all morning.
And I thought, ooh!
Jolly good!
What were you sa d'ya know, I pulled yo er wrong ones out.
I pulled them out of Tuesday paper.
No different to  on front of there, cos they're exactly the same numbers as what's 
Yeah.
I 
on 
know, I've seen them.
the back.
I don't even know if I'd like to jump them.
I can't be bothered.
Well I don't mind doing one card, but I hate it when I've got about seven or eight of them chuffing things!
Oh!
I know.
They get on your nerves.
Make a bloody song and dance of it!
Don't half get on your nerves!
It gets on my nerves anyway!
I chucked them all off  last week.
I've gotta make the bloody bed yet!
I ain't made my bed.
Well you've got out of it ain't he?
Well I er  come in, picked all stuff up off the floor  lit the fire  and I think that were it.
That's all I've done.
And I washed the pots.
Cos he hadn't washed the pots.
So I washed them  er  went out lollipop  come in, been answering phone on and off.
Cos them from Thirsk they've rung twice.
Why?
Er, first of all to confirm that we're still going tomorrow.
Oh.
And I says, yeah, we'll still be there tomorrow  er, same time and everything.
Mhm.
Then she phoned back about ten minutes later and she said wondered if we could come at eleven o'clock in the morning.
Mm.
And, I says no, definitely not.
That's out.
Mm.
And  I explained that Steve were taking to
Car.
car into garage.
Mm.
I says to her, I don't know how long it's gonna be int garage, I says, so  she says, well can you change it to a different day then?
I says, no, I says cos my husband gets three days off once a month, I says, and tomorrow  Saturday, and Sunday, are the only three days.
Yeah.
I said, and it'll be a month  before like 
Yeah.
and he'll have changed his mind, and he'll say 
Yeah.
oh no, if we can't go in January
Yeah.
I'm not going in February!
Yeah.
You know how he goes on.
Yeah.
So  I told her that, and she says, oh fair enough then.
So  left it 
Mm.
at half past two tomorrow.
Mm.
But, Jacqueline were worried to death about lollipop!
You're supposed to be on lollipop, she says, what you gonna do?
We're still sat in  thingy at
Mm.
we walked out of there at twenty five past twelve  and all she kept saying is, what about your lollipop?
What about your lollipop?
What 
Mm.
about your lollipop?
I says, what about it?
Mm.
She says, ain't you got no kids?
I says, no, I says 
Mm.
there int none, I says, we're alright.
Mm.
I says, I'm only doing morning tomorrow.
Mm.
And I says, I'm not doing dinner tomorrow neither!
Mm.
So  we'll see how that goes off.
Mm.
She'll give you a description, when you get there, walk towards where the building, down the steps, and main reception area's in front of you.
Oh and  got to park in main parking lot.
Oh!
I must remember to tell Steve that.
Mm.
But, I don't know.
I'm gonna have to  phone our Sue
Yeah.
Tell Sue to phone Steve
Yeah.
I'm leaving Steve to phone me.
Yeah.
Yeah, he only shoved ten pence in to tell me about that giro.
And I explained that er  I'd met her in town, which I did, didn't I?
Yeah.
I says, and er  we got it all sorted out, I says, but she doesn't get nothing till next Wednesday.
Yeah.
And that, straight away he come back and said that he'd got it.
Well, we knew he'd got it because 
Yeah.
they told her
Well they told him yesterday didn't they?
Well I don't know about that.
But they told her
Yeah.
that he'd got a form and he was fetching it back in this afternoon and they was handing it over  this afternoon.
Three.
Now, they told her that you see.
Mm.
And  cos I says, well what does she do int meantime?
I says, she ain't got anything!
Yeah.
Cos  he might have said  sod it!
I'm not gonna give her it.
Or  it could be three or four days before it arrives.
No, it'll be here today.
Either today or tomorrow morning at the latest.
Because 
Well what does he do?
Just shove it
He'll probably put it, poke it through the letter box.
Ah, well she's alright then.
Well when he said how much he'd got, I thought seventy six and seventy three  is hundred and forty six.
Yeah.
Right.
So he's took seventy three  and he's giving her seventy three  she would have earned sixty three pound on her own!
That's a tenner a week they're giving for him!
That book she sent back, it 
Yeah.
were sixty three quid.
Yeah.
She got seventy three cos of Jonathan.
Only ten pound different!
Someone's at the door!
Is that my babe?
I don't know.
It's Florence Nightingale!
Hello dear!
Florence Nightingale!
Mm mm.
Well
Don't say nothing.
Every other time like  either he's  been too late 
Er, you have to give it a kick!
Oh!
It don't shut.
Oh!
I'm trying duck.
Er, say that again.
I've always been either too late or  whatever
Yeah.
to call
Yeah.
so I thought if, er, I bet you seen me dashing past thinking, she's an ignorant pig her, not calling in!
I've seen you on t' bus and I've er, seen you sculting, and I thought 
Yeah!
So 
Well 
I thought, well  I better go and see her else she'll be  playing around with me.
Mm.
Then how's Florence?
Alright.
How are you?
Not too bad.
And it's tea 
Oh.
with 
still 
no sugar in it this time!
That's right.
Thank you.
I were miles away!
I were making a cup of tea, I'm chucking in a cup.
She went, brurgh!
I went  Oh!!
I can't stand it with sugar in.
Mm.
D'ya know, I got weighed on my scales other day, and I thought, I were eleven stone  again.
And I thought, well, I'm gonna have to do summat about this!
Anyway, when I got on the scales I'm ten stone three.
Kevin said
They vary don't they?
No that were my scales.
Oh!
With the home scales.
So I were ten stone three.
I thought well, I've only put stone on.
But, I put most of that on since I moved.
Have you?
Since just before I moved and it triggered it off.
Oh!
Getting all  stressed up.
Yeah.
To move.
Do you like it where you are then?
Oh yeah!
I love it.
Good.
Have you changed your colour of your hair?
It's my own colour near enough.
Is all that blonde out now then?
Yes.
But that
Yeah.
that hadn't had no sun you see.
Ah!
It's been cut, but it's never had no sun.
All this has.
Yeah.
And it ble sun bleaches my hair to start off with.
Oh!
But, you can't see no roots, and I ain't done it since way before Christmas.
Aye, I know.
Cos you were cutting a load out weren't you?
Yeah.
Ah!
And I cut  I've cut it twice since I've had it cut  just 
Mm.
before Christmas.
I like it that colour, don't you?
Mm.
So
Natural like.
Thought you'd had it done.
I know.
Looks nice.
I keep thinking, well shall I colour it again or shall I just go for that bit there?
Ooh no!
It looks nice.
Have you heard off Mrs Oogypip?
Who's Mrs Oogypip?
Cow bag!
That's before you start!
So what
Her.
Yeah.
I, I didn't get in while er  I thought she were ten to four and I got a phone message off my daughter-in-law  would I ring her.
So I rang, and she said er, oh it don't matter now I've got somebody else.
I thought well, I can't do it anyway.
Where were that for?
For staying in.
She said, well we've got somebody to travel to it.
I said, well what d'ya think I'm gonna do like?
I know.
Bloody  crackers she is, that woman!
Honestly!
She's crackers!
She's never asked me to go since before  the  big holidays.
Yeah.
They rang me up at eight o'clock one morning to be there
Yeah.
at Stainforth  and then that'll be about quarter past eight
Yeah.
and I were still in bed
Yeah.
at five to eight it were!
And I'd got to get up, get dressed, get out 
catch a bus
Yeah.
by time I'd of got to Stainforth, it'd been nine o'clock ready for 
Yeah.
coming home!
Yeah,
But I didn't realize that once  they'd said it like, you know, I just 
Yeah.
said, oh I said, nay I've got a dentist appointment this morning.
Yeah.
He says, oh!
He says have you got your own  transport?
I said, no.
He said, oh!
Then he must have realized that it would be too late anyway.
Mm.
And then when I got up and saw time, I thought oh bugger me!
Yeah.
Well that's a bit bloody late weren't it?
Yeah!
Tt!
Oh!
Stupid buggers!
Oh!
You got some new curtains missus.
They're nice!
Marie.
Eh?
Marie.
You crafty pig!
I were down at their house and she'd got these  and she'd
They were too long weren't they?
she took them down.
They were for our house but not hers.
Mm.
She took them down and that, and washed them  and  d'ya know, she's daft as a brush!
Honest!
She's daft as a brush.
She come round, she says, do you like my curtains?
I'm just about to put them back up.
She got a blue three piece suite, a blue carpet, there's blue int curtains, and I says  them curtains don't match your three piece suite, they look stupid!
So she says, what d'ya mean they look stupid?
I says, pure white backgrounds!
I says, with them co 
They're not pure white.
I know, it's green.
Mm.
And she believed me  that it  didn't match three piece suite or carpet and it was stupid, and that sh and she says what shall I do  about them ?
No!
I said 
You've got enough cheek for another set of teeth you!
Yeah.
I know.
Her and Gary took all the bottoms off to make  tie backs 
Yes.
Me and Gary 
didn't you?
altered them.
We did well!
Yeah.
Here, we haven't done this.
Get the, telephone for it.
But I thought it were good!
Mm.
Mm.
What did you say?
Trying to decide whether to take them  down off my windows and put some poles up.
Well what you gonna do?
Don't know.
Cos I were gonna have these off you weren't I?
Aha!
These metal ones?
Cos I were gonna have your wooden ones weren't I?
Yeah, I said I would probably get you some.
Oh!
Right.
And I don't know whether they've got  with the  I don't know whether they're wide enough  that way
I've shoved them in.
for my blinds  to pull out.
Yeah but  my other don't come out like, long enough.
Don't it?
Ee oh!
Cos they've got to be, I thought it would actually cos the 
Right, I'm gonna go and see to my little'un.
blinds are five inch wide.
Oh eh!
Yeah.
Them drop things.
Yeah.
Unless I put them on the outside wood.
But there again, they're gonna be about, what?
What?
Phone me tomorrow night.
Okey-cokey.
So I can see your winnings.
Oh yes!
And they're about six inch away from my 
Tell you all about it.
windowsill.
She's won a bloody Ferrari int she?
Eh?
Ask Doreen for our 
She tells me fibs.
winnings tomorrow.
I told her!
Not yet!
A secret.
She's not sure if she's gonna take the Ferrari or the Jag are you?
No.
I'm gonna have one of those.
Oh!
Well, come on.
Tell me.
I won 
another competition.
You jammy ratbag!
What you won?
A thousand pounds worth of holiday accommodation in the U K. 
England.
In where?
In England.
Yeah.
And, I really had to answer these questions.
Int she bloody jammy, eh?
I don't know how you do it!
Cos I'm clever!
I must be 
What you gonna do with that one then?
I don't know.
They haven't told her that.
Not seen it yet.
Ah!
See you Flo.
I'll see to Gary.
Yeah, okay then.
Right.
I'll see you later 
Maggie.
Bye.
Bye duck.
That record player don't bloody play!
Oh!
That's perfect is that one innit?
That one.
My records  nee go it  it plays for a bit, then it goes  brurgh!
Er!
Ee!
Ee!
Ee!
Ee!
Brurgh!
Is that your belt?
And then it goes alright.
Might be your belt?
No.
There's something to do with the  slow, fast thing.
Ah!
Yeah.
I'm sick of it!
Can't listen to my records.
Gee!
What time do you start in that place?
About half  in between half past five and quarter to six.
Oh!
Supposed to start at six, but we go in earlier to get stuff ready.
Yeah, I've seen you going in about half fiveish.
Ya.
Cos I've sometimes caught bus up from other end, if I've gone our Neil's or summat.
I won another competition as well!
Wha what for?
I won some money.
Eh?
I won some money.
What did you win?
I don't know till February.
I got  we 
Well how d'ya get these competitions like?
I do them int papers and all sorts.
But I were right disappointed at that thousand pounds worth of holiday accommodation!
I won second prize.
I got that and a midi hi-fi system.
Yeah.
But presentation's tomorrow.
People going and collecting and I'm hoping first prize winner's there.
I'll swap er, midi hi-fi system and that  for her first prize.
Now, you know Irene?
Mm.
And she's sixty five.
Well you know Chris is in Africa?
Well her granddaughter gets married in July.
She got invitation and everything, there's no way on God's earth she can get six hundred pound.
Yeah.
No way!
If her and Fred go it's twelve hundred quid.
So I, every time it says  win some Air Miles and things like that, and that 
Yeah.
competition I entered was win a thousand pounds worth of Air Miles.
And I thought, oh great!
I'll enter that competition, you never know I might win it.
I'll give it to Irene  so she can go to Africa.
Mm.
And, cos it's twenty seventh of July  you know, wedding.
Yeah.
And I thought, if I can win owt like that  it'll be  nice for her.
Cos she's got a great grandson she's never laid eyes on.
Yeah.
So, I thought, I'll do that.
And I won second prize which is England!
Tt!
So, that one must have been for abroad
Yeah.
and this, second prize, is for England.
Yeah.
And I got England.
You see, first prize hasn't got, you see, because, they put your number in a draw, for the person to win the midi hi-fi system 
Yeah.
and I got the midi hi-fi system.
So I've got the 
Yeah.
thousand pound, and that.
But I've got to use mine int U K.
D'ya know what Ma May did?
What?
Told you about her having that  dish  and it went funny.
Satellite?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it were a, one of them four hundred and odd pound ones.
Right?
So, the bloke, the young lad that put the other one in said well  you know, I'll mess about with these.
Says how much would  you want to get rid of it for?
She says, oh I don't know.
He says,wha she says, how much d'ya think it's worth?
He said about a tenner.
You what?
Cos, there was something wrong with the  receiving part of the dish.
Right?
Mhm.
So what did she do?
She give him a tenner and she give him that box with bloody channel change on!
Kept 
Oh!
She is  
And, and the remote  the remote for it  and all she were left with was the decoder.
Now that don't work on its own.
I know, you need another one.
So I'm gonna buy it off her.
Yeah.
I've got that decoder in my house.
You need that system for it  like our Arthur's got.
Like we've got.
Yeah.
That one and that one.
I know.
It's no good without the other.
I know.
You'd have kept it if you'd have had that.
I know.
Oh!
And I kept saying to her, I need summat else.
She said, no I don't then.
She said, oh yes!
She says i she rang me up later, she says ooh I remember now!
I give him it wit her, with dish.
Yeah.
I said you dizzy swine!
I said, it were hundred and odd together.
She said no, that was worth hundred on its own.
I said, no it isn't.
Cos it's no good on its own.
Yeah.
D'ya know he never does this!
It's a good job I always remember to pick it up innit?
Well, cos er  tt, oh I'm so  peed off!
I've left my 
I bet you were.
or I've lost it on t' way  running for bus.
Yeah.
So what you got to do?
Cos I had to go to doctors, you see, at quarter past two.
Then I were talking to our Karen to about quarter to three
Yeah.
and then I sa I looked in  bag.
I don't know what made me look in the bag, but it weren't .
So I went over to  thingy  said oh!
She's just gone to your flat to take it, she's just gone to your  house to take it you.
Yeah.
I says, oh well I better wait here for her coming back, cos I'll probably pass her on t' way.
Mm.
So I waited here, I waited nearly half an hour!
And didn't she come?
So the woman come back mine here and I went home with it.
And I thought, oh!
I walked, er, you know, get on bus and come straight to  after I
Yeah.
and then I thought well I can't cos, I've got er  calculator in this bag  and I haven't got it on me you see.
So I went home for it.
I don't know whether I put my bus pass in my pocket.
Cos I come downstairs, I thought, well I'm gonna  start coming downstairs and upstairs when I'm not in a hurry.
Yes.
What's that?
To help you get in?
Try and that  lose some weight.
So, whether I've lost my bus pass running down the stairs and then running through town, I don't know.
Have you had to pay full fare then?
Yeah.
Eighty five pence.
Oh!
Urgh!
And I've just paid four pigging quid!
It starts today.
D'ya have to go and pay again?
If I've lost it, I don't know what'll happen.
I'll have to pay again, yeah.
I'll have to pay full fare on Sunday now, both ways.
Tt!
Oh!
Cos tonight, I get a lift home.
Yeah.
On a Thursday I get a lift home, but Sunday I have to go up here and back.
It's gonna cost you a fortune cos you need photographs and everything for it int it?
I know.
Oh!
Bloody hell!
Choo!
I hope I ain't lost it.
Well I did a quick trip to our Arthur's cos I lent him some money today.
Do you know, I wish he'd get paid same week we do!
He gets 
Yeah.
paid monthly, and we get paid monthly.
Yeah.
And we get paid  the week before he does.
Oh well!
And you can guarantee, he was on t' phone on Saturday, he phoned me up on Monday, he phoned me on Tuesday and said, now I remember what I wanted.
I says, well I can tell you what you phoned up three times on t' row for, I says, you've no money again have you?
I says, Steve gets paid this week, and you know that for a fact!
I says, you're after some pennies aren't you?
Yeah.
He said, well are you gonna come down on Thursday and drop me fifty?
I says fifty!
What d'ya think I am, a multi- millionaire you?
And then I took pity on him and lent him forty.
Well you might know you would!
I thought, I'll lend him forty.
Well he gets paid next Friday so I'll 
Mm mm.
get it back on Saturday.
Only trouble is, it's me that pays four quid, you know, a quid here, quid back to lend him it, and then I've 
Yeah.
got to pay it again to go and collect it back off him!
Oh!
You should get it off him.
Well I'm gonna say to him in future 
That's fifty four quid  bus fare.
I'm gonna say to him in future, it's costing me four quid
You know Linda ?
Linda ?
Yeah.
Oh I know who you're on about.
Yeah.
It's out 
I never ever call her that.
Yeah well  that's the name anyway.
And er  anyway, I forgot you wouldn't know her as that.
But, you see I called her that because  everybody else called her that.
Mm.
Well
Excuse me.
You're not allowed in this entrance at all.
There's another one just round the corner.
See, this one's for kids only.
For cars, if you just go to end
Mm mm.
it's   Discount, there's a few houses then there's a gateway, back entrance into school.
Okay then.
Okay?
Yeah.
Timed that just right then.
Come on Krista!
She's still got Weetabix all over her top.
Has she?
How did you manage in this fog this morning?
Weren't so bad.
Better than before?
Yeah.
Said it's right bad up other 
It was 
end.
It were this greyish thing  you know, if I got, as long as I got my car warmed up  it took frost,i ice off of window.
Er, it weren't locked up again though were it?
No.
Cos you had trouble didn't you?
I know.
Well, you see, one car, one door unlocks all of them.
Yeah.
Morning!
Morning!
Morning!
You see, you don't let your back doors or inside or outside.
Oh!
You have to make it  
Oh aye!
Yeah, they are, yeah.
So you see when it i when I had, I'd got one of thems done but  you can't o help others out.
No.
It's like 
You having a coffee this morning?
Yeah.
If I'm not here, I'm int house.
Yeah.
Okay then.
Wait!
You'll get a smack you will!
You, pardon?
Alright.
Well, you frightened him to death then!
I don't, you must have been miles away this morning.
Oh !
Just thinking, I'm not all there .
Oh ho !
It gets going and I'm at  I actually was 
I 
gonna say something..
Oh I'm always saying that.
A lot of people do that a 
Yeah, but he  does talk broad Yorkshire!
It's like er  who were it?
Er, Charlie.
Charlie er
He goes none of those northeners!
That's it!
But Charlie's Scottish and I've   saving bags of money, you know.
You don't think they talk like that.
Why not?
You ju well
You talk how you talk, and that's it.
Well yous do.
Yeah, but I mean  they're not just  you know, just well off, he are well well off !
Are they?
Yep.
Yeah.
I just think they work.
Yeah well 
He worked at Lincoln don't he?
No, no.
Yorkshire.
Put it back over there.
Cos when I went 
Cos when I went 
to my mother's  in Lincoln  he used to 
always say to me  go on, say summat.
You should have heard what they were doing to him.
They were right rotten to him!
You know, when Donny lost against Lincoln?
Yeah.
Well they were up the road from Donny and they .
We always said that he had a yellow belly!
Who did?
He says, I'm not bothered.
I don't even like  football !
Cos what they
Poof!
He had summat to pick up, so they picked up 
What are they?
That's what  
I'm all for getting  er  tape recorder.
Tight sods!
Leave the poor girl!
He had to chuck in summat.
Twenty five pound voucher.
That's no bloody good!
I want that!
And twenty five quid.
He's not, he's after microphone.
I'll tell you what he's after.
I'm after all of it.
Bloody marvellous!
You've got all of it!
It's same as your one.
It isn't.
Yours don't have Sellotape all over it.
That has.
It's got  patches on it.
I had taxi driver on it this 
morning.
Oh you did taxi driver did you?
Yeah.
Again!
And I says to him, you're not supposed to use this entrance.
What at school?
Er I told him about the other one.
It's a different one.
They're sending a different one every bloody week!
I thought, marvellous!
I'm spending week after week after week.
Why don't the one driving the week before tell the one the week after  that they've got to go in drivers' entrance and not in bloody one!
Daft!
Thingamabob nearly got run over this morning!
Who?
You know,wi green coat?
Dark hair.
Sometimes she talks to you, sometimes she don't.
He says  she's awful sometimes.
Ah!
Yeah.
Her.
Mm.
She come miles away!
Is she a copper's wife?
Yeah.
Wait till she tells her husband she nearly got run over.
That young lad coming on a bike.
Yeah.
That's him.
It's Chris .
I shouts, eh!
What you doing?
And she went, get back!
Quick!
Quick!
She saying, come on.
Come on.
Car coming.
And I'm going to car  I thought you idiot!
Yeah, she's was a copper's wife.
Mm.
I never knew that.
I knew it .
In a way  Steven.
Her hair's cut like that, she gotta have it cut.
And she pushes a pushchair and she's got a little lad about  ?
I'll show you her anyway.
But I don't think you've ever seen her cos you always come about ten to.
Oh.
If it's the one that I mean
What?
I know what I meant to ask you.
Aha.
Why do you come for that  alarm?
Cos it's his  not Marie's.
Well he's selling it.
It was a, he bought it  he's not selling that one.
He's selling the Widgie He's got a Widgie a posh
Widgie 
Yeah.
Seventeen quid.
Yeah, he's got a posh one  which  the rest of the alarm  he's putting with that.
He bought it for that erm er her   
what, the caravan?
Yeah.
What, did she have it on t' ?
Astra.
He bought it for the Astra.
Yeah but, she says she bought it him for Christmas.
Well he says he bought it.
So I don't know who bought it.
Somebody must have bought it!
I were gonna take  out of that too.
Well  he's still got Astra then?
Did you know about that?
He never mentioned it.
He just mentioned caravan.
Well Marie just said that he'd got it.
Cos I says, you have seen it in passing.
Have you got a house ?
Ah!
Maggie's still having trouble with that.
Aye.
Apparently, they keep getting er  this erm  what was it?
Bill phones up  says, can I speak to somebody?
Right?
And I says, er I'm sorry they're not available at the moment.
You see, they've got a card of the fella that did the thingy  so, when they put him onto this other fella  he says, er, yeah, his name were Mr so and so.
So, they says, well I'll tell you what we'll try and find this Mr so and so, and, we'll get in contact with you.
So, he waited in for two days  nothing!
So, he's rang every day since and he keeps getting this person, that says er  er, we'll pass your message, we'll pass your message, we'll get back to you, I'll get back to you.
I says, you know what you want to do now?
I says, you want to phone up and say look, I want to speak to someone in authority and I want to speak to him today!
Because, if not, I'm going to see my solicitor in the morning, cos if you won't speak to me, you can speak to him instead!
I says, and I bet they call you back.
Well er,wha er what has done about it then?
They won't ring back.
But I said, just threaten with solicitors then.
You can't understand anybody signing summat and not reading it can you?
He can't bloody see!
He's blind as a bat!
Can't she see?
Maggie wears glasses, but she won't outside.
Nearly two hundred quid he paid for a pair of glasses and she sat on them didn't she?
Yeah.
Well I don't give a damn what I look like in bloody glasses.
In fact,, I feel naked without bloody glasses on now.
If I've got to wear them, I've gotta wear them!
At the moment I haven't 
Has  any more then?
Your glasses.
No.
I don't put them in my bag.
It is, I know, I do this  just get legs out of bed and
T-shirt.
Right.
Here are.
Where's my goggles?
As soon as I get my legs out of bed, that's first thing I pick up, my glasses.
Oh it int.
I'll tell you what it ain't exactly 
Yeah, I  
except jumpers.
Yeah.
That's so as you can watch it looking at telly!
Yeah !
More than likely!
More than likely!
Don't be daft!
It's always me what's 
And I was a young men in my prime!
Can't see his blooming !
Well he's got someone to talk to his  while 
Oh yes!
he's in there !
Oh he's just 
I expect you'd be alright if he talked back to you.
You'd know about it then !
I thought he was gonna take the rest of this off.
Yeah, you blank er  bits off.
I've got headphones and everything so you can come back to a certain and take it 
Why?
She said 
Yeah.
to leave swearing and all that on.
And she says to leave swearing on.
She says, but if you listen to it, and then if you don't think that should be there  you can go over it.
You could 
Bloody  than listen to them myself.
No, Flo come  I stopped her conversation half way through.
Oh she's 
No, if I'd have cut  time they wouldn't hear no conversation!
It's a bit like 
with John and Janice.
You don't hear nowt.
Cos you can gather as soon as Paul gets in I think I was asleep.
He's like that aren't you?
He's 
Yeah but 
he sat up last night, he sat up last night we was gonna watch the ten o'clock movie on telly with me.
Cos it finishes at half eleven, so I says to him, oh great!
You're not working tomorrow you can watch movie wi me.
He says, yeah, alright.
So I got my cushions and I laid here  and he got his cushions and he were laid there  and he says to me, are you taping this?
I says, no I'm gonna watch it.
I thought  he's going to sleep again.
Quarter past ten, turned round, snoring away!
Paul we were dreaming last night.
Yeah.
But sh I've been, I work out, I feel .
Working outside.
Is that it?
Aye.
In this weather.
Yeah.
When you get in
I get int car, and it's warm so I end up switching heater and winding window down.
When I get in here there's nice fire.
That's it.
And then it gets me.
Stay in the car then!
Then, he were being a pig last night.
I says to him, with him breaking down other night  his dinner went to dog.
The night before I kept it hot, and hot, and hot, and hot, and by time we did get it at quarter to eight  I says to him, oh this is horrible, this!
Ooh!
I had some 
So last night, I thought, I won't do anything till he comes in  but we'd got company  and er, they went outside, they were having a look at car engine and that, telling us what were wrong, you know.
And, so I says to him d'ya fancy going to fish shop?
So he decided he wanted chips, pie, curry, loads of scraps and bread and everything and he eat every bit of it up!
Didn't you?
I were hungry!
I bet you get as fat as a pig!
I am!
So what?
He's not bothered!
Well he says, said to me  I don't know why you're going to keep, er th to slimming thing cos you, because  I can't tell no difference with you.
Can you tell?
You what?
I can tell, yeah.
That's all that counts.
I can tell.
Said it's a waste of bloody money going!
You used to have two buck teeth but you haven't now.
Oh!
I don't know.
Yeah.
You know, before you couldn't see your  thingy  that
Right!
Where am I going?
No.
You're going to National Tyres on North Bridge.
And they're going to balance your wheels.
Oh I know.
Checking and balancing.
I don't know about checking and balancing, I just says balancing.
I'll let you 
Can you get insurance to pay for it?
It's four pound something a wheel  there.
Oh!
That's dear.
Is 
So 
that dear?
well they says to go there, get an invoice  take it into the insurance  and they will send us a cheque back out.
Usually, when they balance your wheels they  they check the tracking.
They're gonna deduct it.
I phoned up  put Maggie on t' phone, told her sa tell her what this bloke had said  and, they said, just a minute, that they'll get in touch wi insurance and phone us back.
Well they phoned back  and  they said, can you tell your husband to take his car to National Tyres  er, that  insurance has sent him, and could they give him an invoice  for the insurance company.
Like, we pay, give 
Yeah.
them an invoice, he's got to take the invoice into insurance 
they will  deduct that off  the value 
I think 
The value.
send us it, and they can have the rest.
Yeah.
And they says, check it.
Well they won't give him it straight away, they'll see to you first.
They always do.
We haven't finished yet.
But I says, that they were, I, that he weren't satisfied when it were vibrating and that.
And he says, gerrit checked or summat.
So  he's gonna ask them what he does about the vibrating.
National Tyre, I don't think they'll do bonnet.
No!
I dunno.
But, you're going in insurance.
I know.
You're telling them yoursen.
I'm sick of telling them!
I'm sick of car!
Wish we'd never heard of car dealers.
Kirksandle Car Care
They're no good!
D'ya know, everybody we've 
spoke to since then, they says, why the heck didn't you say summat?
You shouldn't have took it there!
One fella were told  they did his erm  summat to his engine  and it blew up didn't it?
Blew up, yeah.
His engine blew up!
Er, Dennis, who we were talking to last night, he says, you must be absolutely mental!
He says that his mate bought a car from there  and, he were a  undecided about this clocking  this time, what's, what call it?
He'd er  wound the clock back  thirty thou.
But you know on his log book, last person  that had the car he went down to see them, and they told him that it were thirty thousand over from when they sold it.
Yeah, but when they got it, you don't have to ask for owt er, M O T.
He went to see person who selt it.
Might have got old M O T.
And, they were on, more on about that.
I says, ah marvellous!
I says, you don't hear a word about anybody  till you go.
Until after.
And then afterwards
Well, I mean, look at me, me with my motor car
I mean, it hadn't done all th as many miles .
True.
Mine has, mine's 
Actually, it's not been on t' road.
I mean, you tell somebody that and they're forced to believe you are you?
Well that mini, we got it from Hutchins.
Guess what?
Mine 
wants two more miles on my clock and I've done a thousand mile on my .
I was looking at it other day.
Chuffing hell!
I  I'm doing  a thousand mile a week!
I know, but  well mine's a W registered, yours is a D!
I know.
It shows tha 
It's not much.
I only go a fair way.
I only do Irene's on it, and that's my lot.
And it's 
Well I do more miles .
Well you, I mean to say that I've had mine a long time and you ain't done much mileage on it.
Well mine's  according to my log book there's three on it.
I've heard of
and I've had it three year.
And I ain't done, I ain't got it to a thousand yet.
But, it's all ready for M O T now.
Supposed to take it in for M O T.
Well mine ain't been used for  three month.
It's your electrics innit?
Yeah.
Mind, usually after three years.
I've had it three years.
They'll get a bit of the  an holiday round here sometimes, you never know, might be able to come down.
Well, if you're in  knock before you go and start it.
Well if I come down  and see Steve and Kelly !
That's right.
There's a story of mine can't go away.
He says, we've got   in caravan.
Have you?
Where you going?
Skegness.
I shouldn't have asked should I really!
It's a lovely place Skeggy!
Did I just give him some money, I didn't did I?
Don't know.
I think so.
Oh!
Better give him some money.
I was gonna give him cheque book and then I thought, no.
I tell you summat, if I don't get one of them bags off of.
No.
Cos you've already told her.
Er, cos she come today and she says forgot book.
Eh yeah.
Aye, if I don't get one of them bags she'll not no, I'll can't get no more .
There's plenty of folks don't either.
That's true.
I know quite a few.
Sarah does it.
My mate  she does it.
Er well
She did up to moving but she lived at Anthorpe and she's not mentioned it since, so I'll have to ask her if she does Avon.
Cos I used to get it off of her.
The cat.
He's got a hump.
He's quite hairy ain't he?
You what?
She says she's only five bags didn't she?
Yeah.
No!
She's not allowed five bags, she's got to have an order of five bags.
One for hersen, and four other people.
Yes, I know.
That's her 
Five bags and over.
I thought she might have five.
No, if she ain't got five bags  then, the what you call it?
She can't have any.
I thought she said well I'm allowed five bags.
No, she can't have anything.
I got a sarong.
Er  an Avon bag  actually I got  er three bags with Avon.
Handbag  er 
Three?
Yeah, a shopping bag  that's alright  
I've got like a fly bag, a blue one.
well mine's whi it's a yellow bag.
I got, a shopping bag, that were a creamy colour with wi A's all over it.
The handbag is navy blue, with white on, and it's, like little navy blue dots on it.
Let's have a look, I don't think I've got that one.
Er  Oh!
Umbrella.
Yeah.
I've got umbrella, a blue one.
I got  oh I got a what they call an'all!
Erm  erm  I did!
It's   Oh !
You know when er, you're going on away or on t' beach or summat and you put your toiletries in and you can put a towel and that?
Yes.
Like that.
Ah yes!
Like you brought Caroline for her, cos she's literally  to cut Paul's hair.
Yeah.
Sort of, with that figure 
It's this one int it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you just draw 
I got her one of them.
them in.
What I do is, I roll a towel up  and that, and put, take them down on t' beach, you know, cos I could put my purse in and that.
Yeah.
A bit of money.
That's what I do.
Er  it's got handle at head int it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you bought Caroline's.
She can put her, her cutters in.
Mm.
Cos she had them in a plastic bag.
Mm.
It's erm  Yeah!
I'm looking at you!
I call them a beach bag, but it's not.
It's like a 
A 
toiletries bag, but it's twice 
toiletry bag, yes.
as big though innit?
With, for men.
Are they for men?
Yeah.
Oh!
Cos Steve got one and I got one.
I got a blue one and he got a black one.
Yeah, I got a black one.
And mine keeps disappearing though.
I lent it Steven and that were it!
Off it went.
And mine's black.
You know, it sounds I spent .
D'ya know, he stuck in all day Wednesday.
Well it past half past ten, you think he'd be up and getting ready for work.
He might be up.
He don't know his dad's in this morning.
He's hiding.
He's always hiding.
Er, what time is it?
Quarter past nine?
Yeah.
He'll go out and get that  five to ten bus or five past ten bus.
Stops upstairs all the time.
Cos I've upset his girlfriend!
Is that Amanda?
Which one?
I don't know.
I told him  he'd better tell his friends, or his girlfriends, that when they call at our house if they don't give names, they're not talking to him!
I says, cos I haven't the faintest idea who they are.
I've says  your Mark, I says, he always says, is that Mrs ?
It's Mark.
Will you ask Steven if I can talk to him please?
And, there's one called Gavin, he rings up, and  the girlfriend, he did have, whether it's still same one, I don't know  called Sarah.
Well, I says to him, I'm getting sick of these calls cos  you don't know if it's for  him or him.
We have the same name.
And er  I picked it up other night, says, can I ta speak to Steven?
I said, no!
So she di still didn't say her name!
So, she says, will you give Steven a message?
I says, no!
Talk to him when you see him.
Well will you ask Steven to call me back?
I says, no!
She give me no telephone number, no name  nothing!
So, she said, oh!
Alright, and put phone down.
And I still didn't know who it were.
I thought, if I keep saying no  she'll say, well it's Sarah  or  whoever  but, no chance!
No name!
No phone number!
No nothing!
Ee!
It's bloody cold out there!
I know.
And it's foggy.
Oh, it weren't bad.
Just washed my eyes, I can see now.
We had a struggle this morning coming out, my windows were all mucky outsi go it got, a car, van had passed me.
I put my window washers on and my windows froze up!
They will do.
Yeah, see me come up 
Yeah but it didn't seem as though it were freezing though did it?
coming home last night, I stopped  half way 
home  bloody needed checking the lights!
Oh!
Don't mention lights.
Keep flashing me to say that I've got my headlights on so I, when I, I give them flash back to say no I haven't.
Oh.
They do that with me.
When I've been taking Paul to work in the morning  they've been giving me flashes and then  if I, you know, flashed them back  they haven't put their headlights on so I thought oh bugger yous!
So I put mine on.
They don't like mine.
Don't like mine.
Mine, my beams shines 
So 
into the cars.
Mine does.
He's got six lights up front.
Paul, I says, your lights aren't set properly!
I says, yeah but it's passed its M O T for lights.
Exactly!
It did!
Cos mine had.
He's just had to alter them hisen!
Somebody, if they were wrong you'd think they'd tell you wouldn't you?
They're supposed to.
But there's no mention of lights!
I sent mine, I took that  it was out.
I said give us screwdriver, I'll do it here and now.
He says, why?
I says, well it seems daft taking it back, to fetch it back.
He said, I'm not failing you on it.
I said no, but yo you've got your marks on your wall I said I can cha do it now.
But this one  I can do mesen.
But 
Yeah.
I mean
Yeah.
Dipped lights though, it's just like a guess.
Not if I've got it set.
We know they're wrong.
Yeah.
Yeah I know.
Yeah, they're just like headlights mine is.
I've got the same, but usually I have eight on front of car.
So I says, Paul, I says, get me some spotlights.
That's what's missing ont front of ours.
When he crashed we've not had anything replaced.
Cos, before you crash  we had six lights on t' back and we had eight on t' front.
Cos he's got  them four headlights  with 
Mm.
the  either side, then below  the bumper thing, we had the fog lights  and above the bumper we had two spotlights.
Now, on the back  I bought him some extra fog lights for back  and I bought him them fog lights that goes int window.
D'ya know?
So if 
Yeah 
the light int window, and on bumper  and fog light.
He come back, we've got  headlights on t' front  two fog lights  and we got brake lights on t' back.
No fog lights, no nothing.
That's all we've got!
I says, to him, there's six lights missing off here.
I says, they cost me over two hundred quid, I says, for the six lights!
But, them at Car Care turned round and says, it's not on t' invoice.
All we keep getting off them is  I says, you mean to say, we're paying two and half thousand pounds worth of repairs, I says, and they're not done?
And then when we went for wheel balancing  told us to take it back for balancing and tracking, they turned round and says we're not doing it.
Take it to another garage.
We told Maggie that.
So I says to Maggie, we'll phone insurance, I put her on t' phone, and she said he were, he were right clever with her!
And er  that's why they haven't got in contact and that.
So he, took it back before and put brand new bonnet that they've put on.
Didn't fit!
And he says, when he gets it up to sixty mile an hour on t' motorway it's still vibrating.
Yeah.
So, he's gonna go int insurance this morning, tell them that er  bonnet's still vibrating and they've supposed to have done it twice  and that, because of er  ask them where he can take to have all these repair jobs done.
You know, checked over.
Cos, he went in there  summat to do wi headlights or summat, one were  like up and down or summat.
And he went in and he said  they haven't even bloody welded this!
They've done a tack.
I says, you're alright, I said, front radiator's gonna bleeding drop off!
So  he's gonna see about that this morning.
I says to him, take a day off work for, I says, for God's sake!
So  he took today off.
So you were saying, he's only upstairs just now.
Grandma.
Steve.
You got that that bag.
Could you fetch my keys from upstairs please?
Grandma.
You've got 
Ta.
that.
Yeah.
Grandma.
Grandma's got that bag.
Has she?
Yeah.
Kath's got a lot of bags hasn't she?
I've got another one upstairs.
Do you know, fellas, who'd have them?
Oh!
That's  
One minute, she starts collecting one thing  then you start collecting another thing Christmas, he come home with one of them.
That lad at work, that John what they call him?
And that, and that's  
He give him one.
And er  he's got hundreds of them apparently.
So he's decided  he wants to collect them now.
Wow!
I've got Tetleys tea.
Is that the  
I've got so 
then?
I've got Kelloggs.
Is it Kelloggs?
Don't know that
No don't touch them.
No I won't.
That was the er, last one that she'd seen they said that .
Them Kelloggs.
Yeah.
Got a lot of them.
That's like granddad.
They're Walkers crisps.
They're Walker crisps.
Kelloggs.
I don't know what that 
They're like grandma.
one upstairs is.
And er 
Like grandma's.
I said to Maggie  I says, Steve's collecting cars  I says, it don't matter if it's int box or not, I says, if they're int box they're staying in a box.
I says, and I'm buying him a rack  for the ones  not in a box.
With Tetleys tea now you send away and get a  like a little minibus thing.
Oh.
We don't get Tetleys teas though.
We don't get that at all.
I always used to 
I've just got enough for one, er one car.
One car .
He couldn't stop buying .
He says, there's not much point in getting P G or Tetleys from one tea bag and making four 
Look!
cups.
Cos what he does, he puts a tea bag in a cup  pours about that much water on  takes the tea bag out and tops it right up with water so he can see bottom of cup.
And then he uses same tea bag again.
That's why  
Well that Tetley tea bags taste strong though.
Hot.
Hot.
One tea bag does me and Paul.
That's all we put int teapot, one tea bag.
That's just not strong.
Well that's good that Tetleys tea stuff.
I'm sure you do get a  a  
I doubt it like.
Cos you never do do you?
Well, no!
So  got wo .
Get four cups.
Yeah.
Can I have it?
What?
It's been there a fortnight  and I keep asking everybody if they want to try it.
And I told Steve to drink it, and he says no, and wi you mentioning Tetleys and I don't 
Oh, he'll not drink Tetleys.
You have been in my bag again!
I haven't been in your bag!
I can tell you haven't!
I have not been in your bag!
So, in that case, you've dropped it.
I picked it up and it were  th the er  strap got the wrong way round.
Tt!
So it all went out?
So I had to pick it all up.
And how come he's good enough to go the Sea Cadets but he's not good enough to go college?
Because he don't go till half past ten this morning.
Oh!
Changed my mind.
But I know Tetleys tea bags  er  one tea bag does me and Paul.
And I have it stronger than what this coffee is.
You'll have to save it till Paul comes back   for the car .
I've got enough for one car for mesen.
Ah!
Will you save some more  and then you can send for 
Okay.
a  gonna save me some Tetley tea tokens for a car.
Oh thank you.
Cos she has Tetleys, and we don't.
Oh Right.
Don't like it.
Just give her that tea, it's Tetley tea.
Save .
D'ya know 
And if you don't like it you can keep the jar.
Can actually, yes.
Yes!
That's what it says 
on't telly.
Mm.
I'm gonna buy
Well
what's that?
I don't know whether you do with like
It's not .
Cos Jack does and all  cos he's got one.
In fact, I'm gonna get his present.
Well it's not even a proper bloody jar is it?
It's a plastic thing.
That's what it says, if you don't like the tea, you get a free  jar !
What the bloody hell can you do with that?
Did I give you a diary?
I can't remember if I did cos I've been picking them up.
Every time I go int bank  they, just leave them on t' counter, they've been there weeks and weeks.
And normally, they're all gone so, and I thought, oh!
I got one though.
I give Maggie one for, today.
Say, you ought to say oh .
Where did you put your bag?
It's there.
Oh!.
Put it back in there.
Oh!
Under there look.
Oh!
Get my key ring?
Under there.
Your key ring, I've just
Ah!
Like that.
What's that say?
Risking.
Is that off 
Come off a panel.
We got about twenty panels at work  and on the panel there's a little plastic thing  stuck on  and it needs four keys  and one.
Wow!
So now it hasn't got nowt with it?
There's no keys, there's no key rings?
There's no key rings.
I got the last of them.
Er, that were before they come in to our place.
Oh yeah.
D'ya know, I ke I've had them in my bag I keep forgetting to give them to anyone.
Well I will.
I'm never there.
Got your ?
Yeah.
Which one?
Eh?
Aye, give me this  .
See if we can use that?
No, it's that one, big'un's in my drawer.
Ooh!
It might be in there.
Oh!
If I did that with my rings, just threw them like that, he'd go absolutely apeshit!
Wouldn't you?
I go to work in them, and I'm pulling cables.
Well you're not working for three days, you've got three days off!
No I haven't.
No.
You've got a day off of work, a day, and a day off.
Yeah.
You said, you wanted some money.
Wow!
Yeah.
I do.
Are they ?
Yeah.
I shouldn't be taking
Do you know, that's cost me for thirty nine quid!
Oh!
Well that makes your total to four bags of coal.
Well we'll do  twenty quid with that thing.
Down there.
Oh aye.
But I, but I didn't get a meter on.
I 
It is a meter.
It's a meter.
It's a .
Token meter.
Token meter.
No.
Our, our Carole's got a fifty pence meter.
An old  one.
it can't be done.
A quarter meter for the .
Yeah, well as soon as they get 
Don't go saying this a right good crack.
No alright then.
And it smells.
As usual.
I might have to go for a recall.
D'ya know
you get worse you do!
Would you like a cig?
Hello.
Go on then!
Yeah.
Aren't I kind to you?
No.
I spend all your money on you  and you say no!
I think he's got a cheek!
Coal?
That's not for me!
That's to keep you warm.
No it int, because I never ever light it in the morning do I?
I light 
Sometimes 
it later on  so it's ready for you coming in.
Aargh!
We ne'er sit in kitchen with Calor gas on.
Well why not?
I would if my kitchen .
Thou would.
Got the fridge in kitchen.
Our fridge is in there.
If I run fridge from there back into conservatory, I could put this there and sit in kitchen and shut the door.
I thought the fridge were going in cubbyhole?
It was.
But somebody put shelves in and everything else and    what have you, so  it don't fit.
It's all full.
Ah!
Ah!
And then, they've just had the gas tank down  the full'un.
Has he got another one in as well, in there?
I know.
Yeah.
I want another one.
What?
I've got three gas tanks and they were all empty over Christmas  so  last time he got paid, I filled two up.
Where d'ya get them from?
You know er
Opposite Tescos.
Oh yeah!
, nineteen pound.
Last time we got them filled  we got them from down here, thirty odd quid.
Yeah!
Mine's  twelve ninety five.
Yeah.
. I gi him a twenty pound note and he give me some change.
For two.
This is Calor gas?
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, Tescos?
Yeah.
Garage opposite.
Straight across road there's a garage there.
They sell them.
And it's  nine pound, did I say nine pound fifty a tank?
That's  
Either nine or nine pound fifty a tank.
That's where I get it from.
And down here it's thirteen quid.
About thirty nine quid they charged me for three.
Yeah well  I get  so it's a pound cheaper than I, you know, others I've been going to.
You wanna go here.
So mine's twelve ninety five.
Bloody hell!
That's three quid cheaper.
I'd go there if I were you.
I'll take one wi you on Saturday.
Yeah.
Get it filled.
I got twenty in my bag cos I haven't got one on other room.
So this has been 
running a month hasn't it?
I don't know.
I don't know how you  
You got paid a month ago.
I don't know how you work it.
We only have it on  one bar, two bar 
Every  
three bar, four.
I start off with three.
I sometimes have one on, then I put two on.
Wait till I'm a bit cold.
Oh I reverse.
I start with three  and then, I think, phworgh!
It's getting hot in here.
And turn it down to two.
And then, I either leave it like that or turn it to one.
See we I were, I did this morning, I put two on  kept door shut.
Had my breakfast int kitchen.
I thought, it's warm in here.
Don't spill it.
What if she comes in.
.
Yeah.
On a dinner time  when I go out on a dinner time I leave it on.
And I don't know why.
I just leave the one bar on
Mm.
and then it's right warm when I come in.
It's bound to be.
I use it all morning.
I've usually got it on when you're here all morning haven't I?
Mm.
Sa it saves coal.
But so far, that's why I chitted at him this morning  about that coal  because I've been using this all morning, I've not been lighting fire till between one and three o'clock.
And I have four  so far it's  four weeks, haven't I?
That's a four, a four, a three, and a three.
I need to go back.
Yes.
What like me?
And I use the fire too.
Who still haven't got that aspirin have we?
No.
That what?
That's .
It's been blowing  water out.
Somebody's nicking them!
I want to help 
Like the  chuffing !
So
But we'll catch them.
She she says,.
I says, he won't cos they've been feeding him.
Well th 
You see, they know him don't they?
You see, if Bill comes over he has a go at Bill, even though he knows Bill, but because he don't see him that much  he has a go at him.
But at least 
they're , and they're not.
Oh I see.
Well
And what we noticed, is, we've got a spring there but what  and there's been a trail of coal  right up our
Ah ah!
Oh!
Oh!
He's lost as much  
Ah!
Ah!
Ah!
Ah, ah ah ah!
Ah ah!
I bought
Ah ah ah!
I had the two of them for Christmas  and it didn't 
Ah!
didn't even last us into New 
Ah!
Year.
Urgh!
Urgh!
And I says, I'm not having this!
Oh!
Oh!
Oh!
Oh!
So I thought, well  he knows I know.
Because I let them know that I know.
Oh they do!
You just tell Maggie.
Cos I heard Maggie  so someone the someone's thieving Kath's coal.
And she's going mad about it!
Well we've locked the bottom half, cos Steve got a lock and we locked the bottom half.
And, but the   it broke.
So, gonna have to buy one.
Well Johnny's supposed to have had one  that were a fortnight ago.
And I says to Steve, I says, I can't keep affording this!
I says, between the electric and that, I says, thirty nine pound a week, I says, every week, I says, is getting a bit ridiculous!
Cos in that electric meter, I don't know what they've done to it!
I phoned it up and says the fella had been out, you know, they change, update it 
Yeah.
every so often, they've got these little card things  well they shove them in  and  it clicks all these numbers up  so I used to buy one token 
Yeah.
so  every fortnight I bought twenty pounds worth.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah  yes !
Well, I've got to buy twenty pounds worth one week 
Yeah.
Yeah.
and ten pound week after, and ten pound week after 
Who is that granddad?
to last me for one month, because we've got to put it on.
Where is that ?
I keep .
Wah!
And my bill, like, come in and seventy odd!
Who's that granddad?
I paid hundred and twenty quid on top of this for electric, and they billed me seventy odd!
And er 
They says, that fella's coming to me, he's supposed to be coming out.
And reset it to .
And I says, I'll tell you what, I said, wait till this quarter's over 
I says, you make the bill up.
Don't you !
I says, if there's owt owing to you 
Oh!
Oh!
Oh!
or owt owing to me, I says, we'll do it that way and then you come  
!
Well I'd thought you'd  winter?
That's what she wanted.
Look at me!
What's that, after six o'clock?
After seven?
Yeah.
It's just
Half past seven?
I usually only put it, put it on a bit before .
After I heard that, I said 
It's not!
I've normally got telly on in the evenings.
Yeah.
Things, still 
!
got your fridge int you?
Your freezer.
Yeah.
.
There's your lights.
True.
I mean, ours is, ours, ours is terrible, ours is a hundred and what?
Hundred and
It were hundred and ten pound seven pence.
Happy birthday to you 
Once we got  to sorted, I'm gonna take her.
.
And ye we've got all things outside.
We've got  a great big bloody spotlight outside!
That lights all yard up.
Well, before they put that token in it, then my bills used to come in about fifty, sixty pound.
But since they put the token meter in, I've just found they're charging me nine pound for token meter as well as the meter!
You know, you get charged for your meter?
Cos I ca I were querying on t' bill, I says, why is it  two meters?
Er, because he's got to come out and read it.
I says, he don't have to come out and read that at all!
I says, there's nowt on it!
I says, I shove cards in, I says, apart from it telling how much you've put in, I says, there's nowt to read on it!
They swear black and blue, they charge you for that meter as well!
I'm being charged for two meters.
So it pushed bill up.
Oh!
I'm whacked!
Ah, ha ha!
As soon as, if you're gonna go  gas for this  when smokeless comes in
At the price the coal is, I am, because if I'm buying four bags at nineteen pound for four bags 
.
Yeah.
and it's eight pound fifty a bag for smokeless, I can't afford 
Oh!
Oh!
four of them.
I says to Steve, I may as well buy a ten pounds worth of anything else 
Ain't got radiators have you?
Eh?
Ain't got radiators are you?
No, I'd have to have a radiator fitted and     da you have to have that pump on, so I mean  pump'd gone all out of 
Yeah.
True.
Clip clop!
But he says we're moving.
Oh you can't!
He's been saying that over a year.
And he's still insisting that he wants to move.
He don't like it 
Yeah.
down this area.
Well don't bust it!
Have you noticed 
Nope!
I ain't put in token.
That's to make me a cup of tea.
Well don't  what about me?
Well, take back that twenty pence token.
It's like my .
Yeah.
I were gonna say  I thought it had.
I weren't sure.
That's to make me a cup of tea when I get home and can try it.
And I can try it.
Yes.
Well, give me it back and you can try it then.
Yeah.
You can have two cups can't you?
That's two cups for you and two cups for me.
Right?
Right?
Right.
Right.
Have to tell Maggie that she can't do the lollipop.
That's yours.
I had a phone call, and you know that place I were going this afternoon?
.
Midi hi-fi and all that.
.
No.
I told you I'd won one didn't I?
Er
Hey!
I've won  a midi hi-fi system  and a thousand pounds worth of holiday accommodation.
Oh!
Well how?
Well what I did, there were a competition, win a thousand pounds worth of Air Miles  and I, I entered every single one of them because of Irene.
You know, she's been invited to that wedding in Africa?
And I thought  well she's got two chances that way, either  I could win, or she could win, or  neither of us'll win.
And I thought, if I got that  I could give it to Irene and could go wedding.
And er  I forgot all about it, entered it last year.
And I got it, of course,
that says you've won second prize!
Now, I've won a thousand pounds in the United Kingdom.
Not abroad.
And we can't go.
I keep thinking it's Friday.
It is Friday.
Yeah.
Exactly!
And I'd won 
That's why I asked if you were babysitting last night.
Anyway 
Ah!
I'm going.
Okay.
Bye!
Bye.
He's not with it!
Bye!
I know.
Er, bye!
He's not used to having Friday off.
No.
Bye bye.
Say tutty-bye!
Tutty-bye!
Bye!
She always says that to her gramps in the morning.
Does she?
Yes.
I say eh , I want a kiss!
So if you kiss her on t' cheek,she's on t' lips!
Is she?
Has he gone?
Then she'll 
Yeah.
say, take care granddad.
Watch what you're doing.
Be careful.
Yeah.
He's supposed to have been there at half past nine!
I told him that he's  
Ooh!
Ooh!
Ya!
You watch, he'll get there and say I can't find it!
He's never been to National Tyres.
Ee!
Ee!
Ya!
He'll come back and say it cost more than that, give me some money.
It costs  
Ooh!
Ooh!
Ya!
Ah ah!
That's for all wheel balancing.
Ee!
Ee!
Ya!
Aargh!
But, when you have it  
Ah!
Eh, come out!
You don't do that!
What did she do?
Pulling the curtains  down !
Come on!
Where's the 
Come on!
?
Come on then.
Good girl.
Please!
She's alright on t' chair.
Please.
No, but he said four pound odd's dear innit?
Well it's only front that's got to be tracked.
And balanced, innit?
That's not bad.
Well, I'm assuming it's not bad.
They can balance your back wheels though don't they?
I don't know.
Cos I've got summat pu they used to have anyway, summat with a piece of  metal on.
Yeah, he has.
Erm, Charlie  puts them on, they took his others out and put these on to balance it.
That's  
Oh!
Cos he said, look at these out the thing!
Cos he give him them to fetch a  a thing or summat and she went .
Whatever.
Int it quiet after ?
All that traffic on, right early, and then it just disappeared!
Watch you don't burn yourself on that lady!
Cos it's hot.
Erm  she  I'm not a lady!
What are you then?
Krista.
You're Krista?
Oh!
I thought you was a lady?
I thought you was a little lady?
Aren't you a little lady?
Are you a little boy then?
You must be a little lady!
No.
Daddy's a little lady.
Daddy's a little boy.
Daddy's a little boy.
Mammy's a little lady.
That mister at hospital calls you a little lady.
Well he did.
I'm not a lady!
Oh!
Ah well!
A little monkey then?
She's a bloody maggot!
She's a maggot!
Is that what you are?
What are you then?
Are you a little girl?
No, she's not telling us.
And you said that
Mm.
You!
Can you hear him creeping now?
Can't you hear him?
Just heard  go cos the seat's dead quiet.
He's avoiding his dad like the plague!
Daddy's  a good boy.
Yes!
And why he's doing that, we don't know.
Cos he says, Steve says to me, is he in?
I says, no.
He says, he's not in?
I says, no.
And a bit later on I says to him  I think he's at Cadets.
He says, he's not, he's in.
I says, eh?
He says, he's in.
And he's just walked past me.
I says, well you could of told me he were in.
He says, he's gone and done summat.
I'll tell you, he's gone and done summat.
He says, he never said hello, tarrah, nothing!
He says, just walked by and ran up  the stairs !
I says, he's either hiding summat or he's done summat.
But, he won't say nowt.
Not a word.
I've never even heard of it
Towards Beverley, you go towards Beverley.
Oh I've heard of it when er Alice has mentioned it.
Mm.
Er I don't think I've ever been.
As I said I'm, I'm, I got them out at  I think it were twenty one ninety nine  or were it twenty five ninety nine?they were twenty one ninety nine or twenty five ninety now, I can't remember off the cuff.
Me thing to have at the bed end you know 
Mm.
drape
Aye.
And these I got our Carole for twelve ninety nine.
Bloody big difference innit?
He says slight seconds, well I looked at them last night and there's, I can't see nowt wrong with them.
Well I, other week I got this beds er not bedspread  duvet cover  and he's supposed to be slight second and I can's see nowt wrong with that.
Can't see nowt wrong with it.
And it were nine ninety nine.
and that was  pillow covers, well shams 
Mm.
well we've 
yeah.
so yesterday when I went I got myself another drape
Yes.
and I got an 
Mm.
Our  's having coffee.
I, I put water in it didn't I?
I put a cup in.
Oh I thought  that were light when I picked it up then that was quick.
Well I've got a crafty Roger because he's took the cheese three times.
Yes, I've got one of them.
Eh now then listen to this, yesterday I'd er some beefburgers had er must've dropped out me box when I were getting me things out of the c freezer and there were this er six beefburgers and two  ch chicken breasts
Mm.
and I thought well I'm not gonna eat them now they've been out of bag, so I thought oh I'll boil them up for dog
Mm.
So I boiled them in pan for the dog and I put some taters in and a few peas and carrots sort of thing  and some Oxos and made him a r a right good dinner.
Mm.
So I took it over to Paul I said I brought this for Blackie I said, I just cooked it,it smells nice.
So I told him what were in it
Mm?
so he says  I'll give him it after.
Well I said I'm not leaving me bloody pan outside
Mm.
so I, I went back in house and fetched him a little bowl back  with me taters in, peeling taters,
scraped it all in  and I said I'll leave it in dish  cos it's a dog doggy dish  went back in house and, oh what did I come back for?
Oh it were to tell him that dinner were ready  and there's this cheeky little mouse sat on top  dinner, and he ain't half eaten it 
And he, he sat there for ages  
off it.
Er and it, it kept looking at me    and I thought cheeky little bugger.
Seems like every bugger's got them though.
Yeah.
Well it jumped up there and run down building brick  
on to floor and it runs, it just, it ran down into corner, there's a  a wheel,thing, and the cheek well it's a  a pulley wheel, and it, it were looking round the big handle at pulley wheel at me.
And then it run back out, up brick and back in chicken.
So I shouted to Paul to come and have a look at it and he says well the cheeky bugger.
He said I bet it's that that's been, oh and then it jumped down and ran  corner at g where ch caravan is, he said I bet that's what's been eating your bloody  daffodil bulbs and that.
Mm.
So I goes in the house and fetches this trap didn't I?
Put some cheese on and we set it  I said to Paul I said anyway your dinner's ready when you are.
So he said alright so he come in and had his dinner so he said  I said we ought to be going this week  for a ride out instead of last week.
So he says oh I said I weren't taking you this week.
I tell you what, if you're not taking me I'll take me bloody self, I said, but I'm taking your car.
I thought I'm not using my diesel .
So I says I tell you what I'll do, I'll take you only he can drive it.
Mm.
So anyway we had us dinner  so he says  he said it'll take thee half an hour to get ready won't it?
You must be bloody joking.
I said you must be bloody joking.
I said you watch me, how quick I can be ready.
So I run into bathroom picking me sweatshirt up as I'm running in  got, had me hands and face washed  out again  into bedroom, got me trousers and me other jumper on and me pan knickers, I said I'm ready.
He said what's your chuffing rush?
Are you coughing?
Yeah.
I've been coughing on and off.
I've put the kettle on.
Is it for  is for here?
Yeah.
Oh.
Yeah.
Look.
Look.
Look at her.
Look at who?
A fairy.
Let's have a look.
Oh int she pretty?
What's her name?
I bet she's no knickers on.
Pretty.
She, she hasn't got no knickers on now.
Look you've pulled all this thing out again look.
It's my book.
It's my book on there.
I finished them books 
Yeah
And you told Kath that we wouldn't have to go this weekend.
Don't take your coat off cos we're not stopping.
No we're not stopping, are we Kath?
No, gonna get some shopping.
Have you told Kath that you've been a naughty girl?
I'm not very naughty.
She's been swearing.
Have you been swearing!
Oh dear me!
That's naughty.
Haven't you posted that bloody thing yet?
You could get your
Yeah I went and got it yesterday but they'd had a break in  and  you should've seen it  they'd smashed the front door, it were all smashed in.
So did you get it then or what?
Well what they had to do, they give us a receipt and they're gonna send it through parcel post.
That's the only thing they can do.
So they had all these letters printed up, that they owe us one
Aye
and they're gonna send it through like that.
I'll get it, I'll read it to you.
And they give us a, like a cheque type thing what you've got to fill your name and address in back
Yeah.
and you send it off and they send you a booklet where you pick a holiday and  this go-kart  worth a thousand pound  on the  so they're having to do that you see.
I meant to ask if they'd had the go-karts nicked and I forgot.
So can you just use that, is it in England or abroad?
Ooh I don't know yet.
It said U K on mine.
That's England int it?
Mm yeah.
They don't tell  
Don't U K come under England, Ireland, Scotland or Wales an'all?
No?
It says  dear Mr and Mrs  due to turnover of stocks we regret that we are  that there are no mini hi-fis.
We're waiting for new stocks to arrive and will forward the mini hi-fi to you as soon as stocks are delivered.
Yours sincerely  and they've signed it.
They've had to give us one of them.
And if it hasn't arrived within week, telephone number's on bottom  and we've got to ring to say we haven't got it yet.
Were it like a timeshare ?
God  you'd've laughed  they were on about that as well at same time and he says to Steve what do you reckon to idea, he says it doesn't sound bad, he says what do you reckon to idea as I says no.
He says oh well you're honest  I says well you've got it straight away No.
Look on here.
left it at that.
Look on here.
Yeah.
Int it ?
I don't know .
I bet my Bill  somebody at work today.
Yeah, cos cough  can't sleep.
I've been, I've been like this for three nights.
I think so,
upstairs and warm the bloody brandy we just, you know that brandy gives off fumes when it's been heated up?
Got it  at work the other night didn't it?
Yeah?
And he come down about three o'clock in the morning
some mentholyptus and  
I've had it.
She's had it all.
I've had it all 
been to doctors and all sorts.
I've been to the doctors, I've had that erm  what do you call the bloody stuff in that purple bottle?
Actifed and all sorts.
Actifed I've had everything.
And what's doctor give you then?
Actifed 
You see what it is, it's stuck here.
If she can get that out of here they could find out what's wrong with her, but it won't come.
It's been there five, six days now.
Mm.
Five or six days.
And in instead of it coming off it's adding on and adding on and by night time she can hardly breathe so she's cough cough cough cough cough cough cough all night.
And on 
My Peter and  they've got rotten coughs.
on Friday night she were pathetic.
O only word for it weren't it?
Bill thought I'd died on him the other night  cos I was, you know, me breathing and everything, and then all of a sudden I must've relaxed for a bit and not needed to breathe and he give me a shock he says God I thought you were dead.
She frightened him half to death.
I 
I say and we cleaned all fire and everything out this morning didn't we do well?
Fire.
I mean I've cleaned my fire out.
I have peeled the potatoes, they're in the stew pan, and the onions and the carrots  and the beef's all in the stew pan and it's had about quarter of an hour.
How long's that take, about an hour?
Yeah that's having dumplings in it.
Ah.
But the taters'll go to nowt.
Yeah they go to mush  and then I put more taters into it  later on, about twenty minutes before I need it, but it thickens it  so  they'll eat it.
It's the beef what were left from yesterday.
Well you said you were gonna use it up didn't you?
I'm not wasting it.
bit of beef so
We called in Little Chef and we had a meal in there, urgh yuk  It were, tasted like shit.
She fetched it and  
Rubber eggs, mm.
she fetched it and put it on table
Eh blooming  them places are, fifty pence apiece for one flipping egg.
Yeah, yeah.
Two pound eighty five, it says, for bacon, sausage, egg, fried bread and tomatoes which, anywhere, that's reasonable, right?
You get half a slice.
So no you got a full slice  she fetched it, put it on table and I looked at it and I says  she says what's the matter, int everything alright?
I says what's that?
She says pardon?
I says what's that?
I says if I'd've wanted a slice of fat and I'd've want burnt tomatoes I says I would've ordered them.
The tomatoes were black  as though they'd forgot they were frying them, they looked like they'd stuck them on a grill and just left them there 
and there was about that much bacon  on the bacon slice, the rest were fat, I says I'm not paying for that.
Did she take it back then  
Oh yeah.
And she fetched tomatoes back and I says here Steve you can have these tomatoes, I says they're bloody disgusting.
And every so often they kept coming up, everything alright?
I says it is now.
Ooh you've never seen nowt like it, you know when your tomatoes are stuck on and then you shovel them off and I thought  they were like that!
I says even I don't cook tomatoes like that, they were disgusting.
I've already done my, got all my shopping in.
Yeah once you find this Nettos you wanna go  because it is cheap.
You, you wanna go all the time cos it's dirt cheap.
Well on Sat Sunday we went ou out I spent all  most of me money on bloody stuff for our Carole's and that.
got a  
Pillows.
Eh smashing pillows a pound each!
Where from?
From that Cabin Market.
Ah we don't know where it is.
Well it's up Beverley Road 
Going towards the bridge?
We get on motorway, no it's not bridge  you get on motorway and we go, go up to Beverley  I'll ask Paul
Thank you.
Thank you.
to write down directions.
Yeah.
But I know you go on erm m on motorway and go towards Beverley.
that no bloody good is it?
I borrowed it off Maggie this morning cos she said you were coming up.
What's that?
Coffee Kath ?
Yes please.
Oh Jake sod off.
Yeah, chocolate.
Who fetched your money?
Came through post.
Oh he posted it?
Sweets.
And you get another one on Wednesday?
What do you mean, sweets?
I've just give you bar of chocolate.
int he?
Get another one on Wednesday.
Thank you very much.
That was just done, I put the kettle on and just I see you coming up the road.
I know  I were showing her alarms and that  she wanted to see how they work.
Ah.
Come on sunshine.
Do that fire in a minute.
Come on babe,.
Oh is that Matthew's?
What?
You eating Matthew's chocolate?
Just been to stupid Nettos, do you know you can't cash a cheque?
Ah?
Just got to counter, she started putting it through and I looked up and there were these signposts, and it says cash only.
So I asked her and she'd already started 
ringing it through hadn't she?
Yeah.
Cash only.
So I had to borrow it off Maggie.
I says oh you're alright, Jacqueline's coming up, I'll give it back after that didn't I?
Yeah.
I've never heard of it.
All shops normally have one of them
Well I've got a Switch which, I've got a Switch card.
doopher things now.
She could've used Switch card but they hadn't got one of them neither.
Stupid.
I like the way you invited me as well.
You says eh shall we go then?
Still  too hot.
It's not too hot, it's just right.
Well fair's fair I were having a coffee with you, I'm not just gonna walk out.
Bugger that.
Hello fat-a-lump!
She's been up to his shop and John says,sh she's come up early 
Yeah.
Mm.
Well you were you saying you weren't coming till half past ten, well we'd've gone, come back and been in by then.
That's what I just said, weren't it?
Cos straight away we says what time, it were ten o'clock weren't it when 
What's his name's lending her the washing
Mum
Who?
Right.
Right.
Mum.
Then get your washing done.
Good.
Put it in the bin.
And when you've finished I hope you know that that was Matthew's bar of chocolate you've just ate.
Oh he halfed it.
Oh did he?
Yeah he give him half.
Yeah but he's had one and a half then.
Haven't you?
What?
Oh the Kit-Kats.
What?
Yeah
What?
I get them for Bill for snap.
She were trying to attract your attention
I'm coming.
Is Jacqueline 
and I'm saying you're alright, she'd have left buggy at your house  anyway cos  you were walking, you wouldn't have had buggy with you then so you'd gotta come back this way hadn't you?
What ?
What is it?
So you got your coal and your tokens and everything?
Yeah.
Are you back to normal now?
Good 
I get the giro Wednesday
Yeah.
and I get my book the following Monday.
Oh that's alright then innit?
They should have it for cash for Monday shouldn't they?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Pass me cup     And I might go and  
Yes she were having a look at a lamb, seeing if it were alright for the thing  and er we decided that they wouldn't be alright because where her  shed thing is, it's too far away from house.
I'm not getting toys.
Not yet.
There.
Have you been a good boy for your mum?
Yeah.
Yeah?
Mum.
What?
Has he been good?
What about that one?
Yeah.
Sweets.
You've had sweets!
Your mum just bought you a packet of Smarties at shop each.
Mm?
Yeah you've had sweets.
bye.
Bye if you're going home.
He said I've had me sweets, I'm off.
Mm home.
So what you been doing with yourself, owt or nowt?
Washing  I should imagine .
Yeah washing.
Is that all you've been doing ?
Catching up.
Oh God.
Is he fetching it round to your house or
I've got it, I can keep it for two week.
For two week?
So do everything what you've got
I can, you, I can keep it for two week till  Johnny wants it again, not this Wedn not this Wednesday, the following Wednesday.
Does he only wash once a fortnight?
Oh
Right.
not really  wash is it,?
Oh well that's once a month.
Is that the dirty one?
Yes, the one they call smelly.
Even give me a box of soap powder.
Did he?
Bloody hell.
Oh.
Mm I, I goes to Ry I goes  can I have washer   
so I gave him a couple of quid, three quid, for lending me it plus the spinner cos spinner don't work on washer
Yeah?
and he goes oh I'll give you a box of soap powder as well.
Oh well that's not bad then.
That were alright then wasn't it?
Jolly good.
He goes you can keep it till I need it again.
You would  
Poo!
Get out.
Straight on tissue.
Oh dear.
So I did all their clothes last night and got them all dried
Yeah.
and I'm doing all me  today.
Ah well.
Yeah but every time you go to the shop you wanna just keep buying an extra little bag of coal  so you can stack up under your  back bit, you know, so you can get them all dried.
tired Joe.
He slept with me last night cos of that wind.
Yeah.
Oh yeah weren't it windy?
Yeah.
Oh God.
And he slept with me, he wouldn't go to sleep so I took them both downstairs, made them a drink, made them something to eat, come  back to bed .
That's one way to do it.
Mind you that wind keeps you awake though doesn't it?
It does, yeah.
What you want then?
I'm not gonna rock.
Take their coats off Jackie then they'll feel warmer when they leave.
Stewart take your coat off.
What's he eating, still eating Smarties?
Yes, Smarties and he's got a piece of chocolate in his hand.
Come here.
finished all his.
Oh.
Well it don't take him long does it?
You can have it in a minute.
Sit down.
Have you seen your mum then?
No.
Oh.
I thought all your neighbours would have phoned her up and told her.
Well it shouldn't be much longer.
I found out who grassed on me.
Ooh er.
Ray.
You said it were him.
He told me, he told me the other night.
Of course we all tol all rang me mum and told me mum  said I did it.
If he hadn't a done that you'd have had your washer and everything still.
Yeah.
What'd he do that for?
I'll be moving to  Apton Road.
Where's that?
You are?
Oh y it's nearer up here.
It's erm, erm is it five streets up this way?
What's it near?
Er 
Oh it's the second street down  no
No it's not second, it's erm er Norwood Road  it's summat beginning with a C, is Apton following that or the one after?
Third or fourth one in.
I don't know.
Third or fourth one i you know from this end, top?
Yeah.
It's third or fourth one coming this way right from top.
It's in between top and Regal.
Oh that's not bad then is it?
Two rooms aren't there?
Three.
No, downstairs.
Oh I dunno Kath.
Two rooms.
I haven't had a look yet.
I think it's two rooms.
If it's like the one we lived in, cos when I, I lived at home with mum and dad we lived in Craigan Road  and they're two rooms.
But then again in Poplar Road, they're one room.
Big kitchen.
I'm moving to Apton Road.
You're definitely swapping with that girl?
Her that come round to see you and Steve?
Yeah.
I don't know her name but I can remember him saying it.
Don't spill it.
Do you know, it's a wonder he ain't fat as a pig, him.
He never stops  
Oh I wanna play mum.
What?
Look.
Nice.
Mum bad.
Yes nice.
Mum mad.
One way to do it.
Don't you spill it kid.
No.
Hey look at this.
I always took that off.
He's made one, he's got, nearly making the other one for it.
Has he got ?
Hey that's not bad.
She was making them for him, then he's making him some an'all.
Smashing.
Cos he's fed up of seeing  
Getting clever him int he?
You chuck it at me and I'll do you over!
Yeah.
You can  Craig, you're not getting nothing else.
You've had chocolate, you've had more chocolate and you've got your pop.
Hey!
Hey.
Stop it.
You've got your pop here.
Drink that pop.
No 
Matthew'll have it.
Mm.
What?
What pop?
Yeah y well you have the bottle first.
What?
You don't have fizzy pop you don't, orange.
When did you get Smarties?
Went up to shop.
We went up to the shop.
Oh you got them?
Yeah  
I were gonna say I seen you get chocolate but I didn't see you get Smarties.
No I bought Smarties this morning at top shop for them
Oh.
cos I knew they were coming.
And they went and bought some more.
I went in John's shop and I goes to John have you seen Maggie?
He goes oh she were in earlier on but she weren't feeling very well.
Mm.
probably in bed.
No she says that she wanted to go to Nettos this morning so I says are you coming?
Mm.
I didn't ask her if she could, I just says are you coming .
So he picked the Smarties up and walked out.
So you had to pay.
So I goes come here, and I give them to John I goes I'll take them John  and I paid.
Kids are like that though aren't they?
Then he  football 
Mm yeah but I'm surprised 
It's o that's the only trouble with shops, all sweets are always low so kids can get them.
Yeah.
And they know for a fact the minute your kids grab them that you've got to pay.
In the bin.
In the bin.
In the bin.
Sweets.
Sweets.
Oh when are you going to Nettos again  Kath?
Well I didn't know we were going today.
It's only cos she mentioned she wanted some bread.
I'd give her directions and everything.
She says it's for ducks.
mum!
Well that's  
Cos she says is it soft and fresh?
And I says soft and fresh, for ducks?
I said it's soft and 
I'll do it.
soft and fresh for you not for ducks.
Yeah.
Drink that and you can have some more.
You give ducks hard bread don't you?
Yeah, for the ducks!
That's one way to do it say it's for ducks.
He's a good boy.
Ah!
He's lost them under his leg.
Ooh!
You what?
You drink that and you can have some more in a minute.
Oh cough it up.
Our Suzanne's having a sort out by the way  maybe next week or the week after but 
I'm getting I'm getting, I'm getting for dog.
Are you?
Yeah.
Is he still at coal hou 
No .
she threw the thing in coal house, her .
she said she was gonna put it in coal house.
When we went to Donny on Thursday  I met her and er I says how's
Craig!
I says how's things?
Craig .
She says I put dog in coal house, I couldn't believe it could I?
That's it.
Right you can have some in a minute when it goes flatter.
Drink that.
Well
You don't want that babe, you drink your bottle first and then you can have some orange.
You're not having fizzy pop, hurt your belly.
So when you thinking of moving then?
They're going in for papers Wednesday.
Are you going with her?
Very good.
Yeah.
And her husband's having these two for me with his kids.
Very good.
Smashing.
That's what I like to hear.
Pick that  up for us  
Cos I was to ha because I had nobody to have kids, she goes, she goes fetch them down, husband'll have them.
Watch Jake.
I know where it is.
What number?
Fifteen.
Fifteen, that's  left hand side  half way down.
Oh that's not too bad then.
The toilet's upstairs  and bathroom.
Good.
You dirty chuff-bag .
Bloody coffee and pop, get your hands out!
There.
No thank you.
There.
There, yes.
Do you want some spaghetti in a bit?
Your face is coming out in them blotches again innit?
Look at his face.
She's going to Nettos on Friday, Al is.
Is she?
Yeah.
Bill prefers Nettos.
Oh .
But I wanna go, I've gotta get something for me freezer, me freezer's empty.
Oh I went down there other day, I paid twenty quid.
I've got a bloody crave for that broccoli.
Urgh!
No darling that's right.
What do you want now?
Oh I love them.
On.
On what?
What do you want?
Have they had breakfast Gill?
Yeah.
Well you've been fed.
Now what do you want!
He's had two chocolates 
Packet of Smarties.
Packet of Smarties.
Biscuits.
Pop.
I'll make you some dinner in a bit.
It's not dinnertime.
Make him wait till dinnertime else you'll cock her system up.
It's alright him having breakfast and an hour later saying mum I want me dinner.
Do you want this?
He hasn't has he?
Oh God.
Oh my little dumpling's gonna take his coat off.
He's busy he is.
He's alright as long as he's eating.
He moved cos he was sat on them.
Don't you dare take his sweets, you've had yours.
No you've had yours.
No not one.
They're Craigy's.  ones.
So you should be rich then?
She will be now won't she?
Plenty of money all to yousen.
As long as she pays the bills.
Well she's got her seventy odd, it should be sixty  what should it be?
What's that?
Your money.
How much do you normally get?
Sixty summat.
Sixty three.
She should  she should get sixty three so she'll get a seventy three today, were it today you got it or Saturday?
Saturday.
So she got it Saturday  Wednesday and Monday,I bet you hadn't had that before eh ?
No.
All three in a week.
Very nice.
Aye that's not bad, nearly two hundred pound.
Only with your help.
Well I couldn't see you with no money.
Can't we get some money from somewhere else?
No we've got it  we've got it from  everywhere we could think of didn't we?
And let's face it when they go to school they can have free school dinners and then we can get them free clothes as well can't we?
Yep.
Oh that's easy that one.
I know how to do that one, that's a doddle.
Dead easy.
That's 
Yeah as soon as they start school write in and you apply for him, when does he go to school?
Next June is it?
Next September int it?
No this September.
No he's only three.
Yeah.
Next September, gotta be four.
Gotta be four to go to school.
Gotta be four now?
Yeah.
Four.
Thought it were three.
Four.
You've got another year to suffer, you're not getting off that light, we had to.
So you're gonna suffer an'all.
I thought it were three when they went to school.
No they, they go four and stop till they're sixteen now.
You can't have the other kind cos the other kind's our Gary's.
Oh!
They altered it, you used to leave at fifteen didn't you?
Now they lea you've got to l stay till you're sixteen.
I heard they were on about moving it to eighteen.
It were fourteen when my dad left school, and I were fourteen when I left cos if your 
I were fifteen.
birthday was on the eighth of September or before, if it was in the summer holidays or up until the eighth of September, you could leave school  and my birthday was the eighth of September so I left school at fourteen.
Yeah.
That's true.
Er, one and another one who did, who was a waiter but part-time  when they had somebody important in, which I think I've put down here, that one's finished with.
But did that be for the staff catering?
Would that be the  that you are talking about the canteen for staff
erm well
dining room?
The dining room, oh yes the dining room I was 
that would be for the staff, railway staff?
Mm.
Oh no every er er ordinary customers.
Oh, I see 
Oh, I see actually, it was actually at the station?
oh yes
different now when it, where it's just a cafe isn't it?
I don't know I haven't been up for years.
You don't, I mean they don't have proper dining rooms at all.
Don't they?
No.
Oh.
No, that's why I was wondering.
Oh goodness.
There isn't at the station for the customers.
Yes.
just like rolls now and a cup of tea 
Oh my word, how it's gone down.
Well what sort of meals  did you have to provide?
Well I can tell you.
I've written it all down.
Oh really, oh good.
Yes I, you see, in those days it was quite different
Yes
you see er  what it's like now it was a large  adjoining the, the, the large room, what they call the  you see and over the, over the other, across the line, to the railway line there was another place called the Down Bar and the Tea Room adjoined.
I don't know whether they're open
No,
not there?
No, nothing like that there.
I can't believe it, you see I thought things were still as they were.
No, they're not.
I think you'd find it hard to recognize the old railway station now.
Well every, you know erm I can remember the time er when I first went and they used to have silver er plated of course, silver plated water jugs on the counter and silver plated sugar bowls with tongs and loaf sugar for people to use and of course well and when you see the war came along, you see, they were all taken away because, you see, we had troop trains we were up day and night so  the troops with tea.
You'd get a message from the R T O the er Railway Transport Office to say supply three hundred and sixty cups of tea at such and such a time and then of course the troops would  the train would start, the troops pour out and pour into our place and there we were dashing around.
I used to help of course and we were up day and night.
I've got a, a photograph somewhere where we had this trestle table er on the platform and if you were  the tea and of course the men had to stay o overtime, they didn't get paid for it and we, we it was a seven day week for us, we were never paid for Sunday.
It was seven days a week.
We had every other Sunday off, you see, but otherwise we worked and didn't get any extra for it but of course the girls like myself well erm  we couldn't lift these huge urns of tea so they had two men keep them on, you see, and er, and we were er perhaps I know one day we didn't finish until five o'clock in the morning
and we'd been up all night serving troops and er, you see, and then the Manager said, well look er  now and have some breakfast before we get th another telegram and we were next door to the Telegram Office, you see, and when, when the erm war, during the war, you see, the man would come out of the Telegraph Office and he would say er  and er, you see, all the lights went out except a few lights along the back of the counter.
Then he'd come red and you'd know that a erm a bombing raid was imminent, you see, and er er  when I look back you know, but as I say everything has changed so much.
Now that, you're talking about all the troops coming through.
Was it Ipswich Station?
Yes.
And yet when is it, when were you working there because I thought you said you'd finished.
You worked at Needham during the war and then went to Ipswich.
Ah, yes, well we after I left Needham, then I went to the Post Office for a year
Yeah.
which I told you
Yeah.
but you see erm, well I wanted to get on
Yes.
and I thought I can be here until I'm ninety, you know,
Yes, and not get anywhere.
that's it
Mm.
and so when I heard about taking on girls again, on the railway
But they were still getting troops and bomb bombing raids?
Oh yeah, well it was during the nineteen fourteen eighteen war.
Oh yes, you see, they, I mean  
But I think that you were working then at Ipswich, I thought you were just at Needham.
Er ye well er, it was when, no let me think I went to Ipswich, I did a  till the First War ended.
I see what you mean.
Mm.
Well, and I went to Ipswich well it must have been just after the war then
Mm.
but you see er, yes that's right and then of course I'm, since then I was up at Cambridge and that was during the second year 
yeah
you see, so yeah and er we used to have as I say er, well for instance I've been up in the office.
If they had important people  like er such as Mark  and his wife, the pianist, erm you've heard of him of course.
Well he, he, they were on their way to Norwich but they stopped off at Ipswich for a lunch, you see, and er I  had, I looked after them, so, so that it shouldn't interrupt the other girls behind the counter or, or the waiter who was looking after his regular customers in the dining room, you see, er and so I used to erm and once I had  I remember there was six black doctors came in and er and I was glad because it was nice to move about and instead of sticking in the office typing and then going out all alone, you see, while the Manager was on the district, you see, I liked it and er  anyway that was a long time ago.
Yes.
So in the wa in the dining room, they had waiters as well?
Oh, yes.
They had er his name was Jimmy  they had er well one used t one old gentleman used to be a  yes and his name was Jimmy , the waiter, that's right I, I get a, I have to think because I, I sometimes get mixed up and I'm at Cambridge and you see  it was a long time ago, you see, so, since I was young and I was then.
Well I can tell you I went to Cambridge er on er the twenty eighth of December nineteen thirty one.
Well that's fifty, how long, well I daren't think
Mm.
Fifty years ago.
Yeah.
You see and 
Oh.
that's a long time 
Yes.
I'm sure you don't want to hear all this 
I'm really interested about Ipswich Station just cos it's, it's so different now.
Yes.
That they used to have waiters and tables with silver, plated silver
Oh, yes.
and tablecloths
Er no they didn't have tablecloths, no, er in the dining room of course 
Yeah, in the dining room.
oh yes, but not in the ordinary er there was a huge place, where you could put tables all round  the tables, you see, and, and er it was a  and er  I liked it,I, when they were busy, you see, I used to, especially if they had an order for these hundreds of cups of tea, er, you see, I used to go down and give a hand then, I used to like it, you see, somebody would give a shout and I would come down from the office and  and left them anyway and then er I heard of this job.
I thought well after ten years, I thought, well I want  I still want to get on and erm  so I heard of this job down at Cambridge Station as Assistant Manageress at the Refreshment Rooms, you see, and er it wasn't quite the same because er at Ipswich, you see, although the Catering Manager's office er my work was office work and typing you know  general thing and er because he was away most of the day, most days, because of er er the ten stations er from stretching as I say from Chelmsford, Witham, Marks Tey, Colchester and er I think it was Clacton and er and Manningtree and er I think, I don't know  Manningtree and Ipswich of course and er then er Bury St Edmunds and, and that's it and I am not sure whether you went to Newmarket or whether to Ca whether to Cambridge now  Newmarket but er, you see, so the days went on and we worked every other Sunday and of course I know things were a lot cheaper then but you see the pay wasn't, wasn't very good.
No, how much would you have earned?
Well because I was in the office I got a pound a week, you see,and the, do you know the Manageress there who, she was the Manageress then sorry, I've got a photograph and she said that when she was Manageress at Colchester and she only got fifteen shillings a week
I and the girls, that's, that's all they got fifteen shillings because I was in the office I got a pound  and mind you we slept in, we had all our food, you see, and we had to all sleep in.
Where at the actual
On the station
On the station, at Ipswich Station 
on the station 
they have rooms?
Oh yes, upstairs, they're still there I expect I don't know.
Goodness.
We slept there you see.
So what you had your own room and
Well no I had to share a room with a, with a, I think there were five beds.
Four other girls, that's right and of course there were housemaids there to do the work and er yes housemaids and er and er you know and in the, in the kitchen, you see, there was the chef and er a cook, the kitchen maid and er a young man,a boy, well just left school to scrub the tables down and do the floors and that sort of thing  and er and whi and er while I, of course I had to go down every day to type, to see what the chef said, what was on the menu and type it, type out the menus, you see, that was one of my jobs and er and if  let me think, yes there was quite a number of staff, that's just in the kitchen
Mm.
you see and ther I su I suppose there was about ten or a dozen girls behind the counter because it was early and late turn for them because you see we were open, you see, until ten o'clock at night, you see, and er then, well, anyway, after that erm I heard about this job going as Assistant Manageress at Cambridge  and er so I applied and the Manager said to me, I thought well I'll be here ten years, erm I can be here until I'm  you know, donkeys years and er so he said well look you may not get a job because he said that another girl coming from Norwich to go to Cambridge to see the Manager as well as you and so you might not get it, she might get it, and, however, I went and er I, I met the Manager and the Manageress in the front office, the Manager's office and we all had a chat but I didn't see the girl from Norwich, she must have gone some other day and anyway I got the job, you see, and er, and so I went to Cambridge as Assistant Manageress and I  very well and I got to know all kinds of people, all nationalities being a university city.
Well it was a town then but since then it's been made a city, you see, and I got to know all kinds of people and one gentleman came in there, used to come every evening and write a book  and er, I used to look after him if I happened to be that end and er, you see, and then he'd say, oh just an exchange you know about the weather and just in general thing and then I'd leave him and he'd get on with his writing and one day he said to me.
When I've finished this book and it's published, I'll give you one  he said you won't understand anything about it because it's all about electronics and electricities but he said never mind and, and he did and it's up on that shelf, er  I've still got it .
Yes and
Never read it?
Well, er er er it's all on, well I couldn't understand it, he said, but he said I'll give you one because he said after all I wrote it here didn't I?
You see, he was exceptionally nice and he used to lecture at the colleges and er he was a real, very nice gentleman and er and so he, of course he, he, he took his drink across to the table with him and sometimes I took it for him it just depend and he, he wrote this book and er  I forget now, perhaps you would like to read and see what he says 
the second book down, it's with a mauve coloured book
that one yes
Elementary Technical Electricity by Samuel 
Yes 
to Miss Ivy 
That was my name  I married.
with compliments and kind regards, Robert Samuel .
Yes.
This was nineteen thirty eight
Oh, well there you are
amazing 
see how I've saved it all those years.
Yes.
You see  yes
Extraordinary.
It is isn't it?
Yes, yes.
Yes, yes he gave me one
Yes  I thought  you know when I retired and left Cambridge I ought to bring that with me you see
Oh, yes.
and of course, as I say, being at Cambridge there was a little theatre there and er we used to see so many of the actors and actresses that used to come into our lives  you see because there were five places on the station, for instance , there was the tea room adjoining the , there was a large kiosk,large kiosk one girl in there, you see, and er there was, then there was this large  which is the biggest and then the dining room  that, you see and er so and, and one year I, I wrote it down but erm, one year I remember we took forty four thousand pounds which was a lot of money and er, you see, well er I got on very well with the girls
And you ran all this?
You were in charge of all this?
No not, not till the Manageress, I was just going to tell you about that.
The Manageress there  erm I was there and she, I, after I'd been there eighteen months, she had a heart attack and the girl  took up her tea tray, one of the girls took up her, because she wasn't on duty till about just  quarter to six to do the money.
It was my job to go to all these various places and collect the money and take the numbers on the till and collect the money and put it in a bag, put it in the safe.
That was my work, then when she came down on duty, she would sit one side of the table with her books and I would sit the other and count all the money, you see, then I would take this money er, in a bag, through on to the black  through the, past the ticket collector and take it to the booking office and they took it from me and took it when they took their money to the bank, you see.
Well do you know  sometimes I'd taken it through and perhaps a train would come in, a London train would come in and people were crowding through.
We never thought anything about being mugged in those days, you see,and er  and th that's what happened, as I say, so we took lots and lots of money,
you see and er
So you were a sort of Assistant Manageress ?
Yes but you see at this time the girl took up her tea tray and, and when she took, she knocked on the door and when she opened the door the Manageress was lying on the floor
foaming at the mouth, she'd had a heart attack.
Well of course she came running to me, you see, and we immediately phoned for the doctor, you see but, however, and I said, look, phone for the doctor, I said, and then I said go across to the railway police just across the yard and I asked one of them to come to me and I said I will go up with her and be with her until the doctor arrived, er he was with her the police sergeant when she died.
There was me as well, you see, and there was nothing we could do and er she'd had this erm, it was awful, they took her to the mortuary because some of the girls, you see, erm, you know they went hysterical and er I'm not gonna pass her door, that sort of thing.
Er, you know, well of course they were young girls and er, you see and there's, there was nothing we could do, you see, and, and er, anyway the doctor, as soon as the doctor did come, it was  because th the young staff er they had to, they took her away to the mortuary, you see and erm then I, I had to carry on with her work and, and do the best I could and mine as well, you see, but of course er the Manager he appointed another Assistant Manager to go and collect the money which I used to do got it in because I took her times of duty as well and er, you see, and then after that er after several weeks I suppose it was, I don't know how many because I forget how many, that they appointed me as Manageress and I  was in that position for twelve years, you see and
Until you retired?
Until I re and, well until my husband retired at sixty and I thought well if he's going to retire at sixty, I might as well retire, you see.
So when was that?
So that 
Er, that would be oh well he was a, he was a railway clerk er on the station
At Cambridge, is that where you met him?
Yes, that's where I met him.
Yes.
He used to come into our place and erm, and er, I always knew when he was g every night, hale, rain, snow whatever, he was there, you see and he used to have his pint of bitter, no more or no less and er, you see and all his friends, there were six of them.
All bachelors, stood along the counter, you see, and er they were all good friends and though some of them had, had retired, one had retired and we, well there most of them had retired because er my husband was fifteen years older than me and er yes  anyway erm he, he, he retired, let me see, we married er when I was forty four, you see and erm  he would then be, well no, yes he'd be just fifty nine, you see but nevertheless, we had thirty two years very happily married and so when he died, he was ninety one.
Yes and he was buried up at Creeting you see.
He was cremated and buried up at Creeting in my parents' grave and that's what's going to happen to me, you see I will be cremated because erm, you know they make a sort of well and take off the top stone and the pebbles and things and er and then  the ashes go in the  and so  in a casket don't they and you see and so we shall
All be together.
be together
you see
Yes, yes.
in my parents' grave.
So when you retired you came to live here, was that it?
Well yes and er so after that, you see, when he retired at sixty.
Mind you he was, this is my husband.
Oh, I thought that might be him, yes.
There, isn't he handsome?
Yes
Now he was a, oh, he was seventy one when that was taken.
He doesn't look it.
No.
I mean he could be in his fifties.
Oh yeah, he doesn't look it.
he's a very young 
picture of me when I was younger
Oh yes, yes 
but I forget how old I was 
but he was really handsome
Yes
and so
he was.
so quiet and so well respected, he was so kind, you see, and so I'm grateful and of course before I married, you see, I, we used to have three passes.
I had three a year and of course in between times you go we had quarter fare if we want to go anywhere, you see and er of course it was the old money in those days and I would come from Ipswich to see my parents here for sixpence halfpenny then and er, you see, I used to go on holiday alone.
Now really as far as you're concerned er I could tell you a lot about our holidays we had.
That's amazing that you went on holiday alone because surely you would have done much  
well you know I, I wouldn't do it now.
No, no.
I wouldn't do it now because I, ever since that, that woman was on the train was stabbed and thrown out, I wouldn't go alone on holidays now but in those days, well maybe I was a lot, course I was younger then but you never heard of such things
But yo it sounds as if you were a very independent person.
Oh I was.
Yes.
Oh I was and I used to go, and the first place I went to, let me think, it was Dunoon.
I wanted to go to Scotland and I remember I came to say goodbye to my parents and that was in the evening and I went by train to Liverpool Street and it was pouring with rain and I had to make my way, I had a taxi across to Euston, you see, and er and I went up th the left side of the country, see, past Carlisle and  and then  across and across  and then and to Greenock er er to Dunoon, you see.
How do you spell that, I can't think of the name.
Dunoon?
Yes.
Er it's er D U N double O N isn't it?
Oh, yes, yes  of course it is a Scottish place 
Oh yes, it's in Scotland, you see, and whilst there, you see, every day er because a lady laughed at me and she said, she was staying in the same hotel and she said er I, I used to book up in advance of course but never took a chance.
I used to book up in advance and I thought oh go to Dunoon, you see and er I got a free pass, so I went and erm she said talk about a holiday, she said you soon you've had your breakfast you're off.
I said well that's what I came for.
so what did you do when you 
Up and down the lochs.
Yes
Up and down different ones, different loch  and er you could see Inveraray Castle in the distance we, er after we married we went to Inveraray Castle, went over it
How old were you when you went, first went to Dunoon then?
Oh goodness, well 
You must have been in about in your mid twenties?
Er  well I started going for a holiday by myself when I was about er
What 
when I was sixteen because it's then I started to get these free passes and I had a sister then who lived at Rye and I had never been across London so the next door neighbour came with me to see me across London er because I was so young you see and I said right as long as you show me across London I can come back alone, you see, and so I came back alone and I, that's when I started, so from sixteen and er and as I say I went to Cambridge in the nineteen thirty one, it was the last day of  well say nineteen thirty two, you see, and, and also in the twenties I was going on holiday alone and I went to once er to the Isle of Man and when I was er I, I sat next, well being by myself, you see, they put me in, to a little table near the wall.
I booked up in advance of course.
They put me by a table er near the wall but it for a table for two and then another lady came by herself, I remember her name was Miss  and erm and she said, have you been here before?
I said, no, and she said oh I have lots of times, I only live at Manchester, you see, and of course, you had to go by boat you see, and I caught the boat train from Ipswich at eight o'clock in the morning and I got to Manchester at lunchtime about one and then went on to Liverpool and the train there took us almost down to the docks.
Well of course when I went to the Isle of Man, see, I went on the boat and er, you see, and er it only cost me ninepence for a, a landing er for the landing stage.
I had to save ninepence because I had these free passes.
Three a year which was very nice and er oh well whilst I was there, you see, erm I landed up in, in Peel because I was going on a and she said to me one day this Miss  er what are you doing today?
And I said er, well I'm going on a coach trip to rou around the island and she said, may I come with you?
I said, of course and I said it would be nice company and so she said er  you sit near the window, I've seen it lots of times before, as I only live in Manchester.
So she ca the two of us went together.
Well we went off, we got off at Peel which was the other side as you know and there was Peel Castle right on the hill there and erm well after, and she said we won't go to these sea front cafes, well I know a nice restaurant, she said, up that road, and she said, just turn to the right and there we are, see.
She said, may I come with you.
I said, of course.
I said it will be nice company and so she said er, you sit near the window, I've seen it lots of times before as I only live in Manchester so she t well the two of us went together.
Well we went off and got off at Peel which was the other  with the  all bandaged up and she said the chemist advised me to go to the police and er so she said that's why I've been a long time because I've been to the police and reported it.
He said it's happened before and he advised her to go to the police and er so he, he said er when and the police st told her, when you come back we'll have all this typed out i and she came back all with a flask  all bandaged up and she said the chemist advised me to go to the police and er so she said that's why I've been a long time, because I've been to the police and reported it.
He said, it's happened before and he advised her to go to the police and er so he, he said er when and the police told her when you come back we'll have all this typed out, your statement but we'll need you to sign  so tell the coach driver to stay at, stop at the police station for you to sign it and I, I said to her, how, how did you manage to stop that boy?
Oh well, she said, you see, it's my work, she said I work in a, in an insurance office and she said I'm in and out the courts all the time, you see  so  he knocked down the wrong person 
Yes.
Yes.
well  anyway  er, you see and well anyway er so when, that night and we were  by coach of course bus, went there by bus and so that night she said to me, what are you doing when, in the bus, she said, what are you doing this evening?
Well I said I think I'll go to the theatre and off I went to the theatre.
I was rather late back,when I got back I heard a knock on my bedroom door and she said it's Miss  and er I said, oh come in, I undid the door and she came in and er and so she said to me er, I just had a telephone message from Peel er to say that you have been subpoenaed to go the Police Court next Thursday and I said what a day out of my holiday and she said, well I'm sorry but you'll have to go.
Yes.
So the two of us went off to Peel and er anyway they paid us, they paid for our lunch and er and so that was alright and of course I had to go in the witness box, you see and swear on the bible, you know, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, you see.
I was a witness and so on you see and down below  and the sergeant said to me, the sergeant came up and said to me, you'll have to be careful because he said that boy, he was sitting there with his mother, poor woman, all in black and er the em the boy's employer had got a solicitor on his behalf, you see, and I said well I can only speak through and say what happened, that's all I can do and er, so of course when I went into the witness box this man came and er asked me all sorts of questions.
Where, why didn't you walk on the pavement, on the path.
I said there wasn't one, you see and er he said, er so you were walking, were you arm in arm?
I said, certainly not.
So he said, are you two friends?
I said, no, we're not friends but we're friendly if you know what I mean.
We're staying at the same hotel and sharing the same table, you see.
He said, oh.
So erm then er oh he asked me other questions.
So he said, you were on the right and this lady was on the left near the gutter side?
I said, that's right it's and there was a narrow road, yes.
So he said erm, well in that case, he said erm, you were walking together but not arm in arm?
Yes, that's right.
So what else did he ask me?
Oh I know, he said erm, let me see, oh he says, er like that, if it was a narrow road er you er pretty well covered the road and I looked, I said, covered the road, I said I know I'm big, but not that big a and of course everybody, the magistrates on the bench and everybody laughed, you see and there were newspaper reporters sitting down there writing all this down, you see  and so I said to the  sergeant, I said, would you be kind enough to send me a newspaper to er tonight and he to I am not sure if I can  oh yes I think I did.
I suppose I've still got it somewhere.
Anyway, I  over it and er so he, he, he said, yes I will, I'll send a piece  on to you  .
Yes I can see them now, they all laughed you see
oh dear

Erm er Ken, could you er just give me an outline of what what happened?
What's happened to you.
What's sort of going on since the last time I interviewed you.
Which was about  
Er 
is it two years ago now I think.
Is it two years?
Good Lord.
Er that time we we was living in  Bay wasn't we?
That's right yes.
Yeah.
Erm we was living in the High Street I believe.
You were.
Yeah that's right yeah.
Quite a nice place actually.
Er yeah.
That was only a t a temporary temporary house.
Er we managed eventually to get a a erm a flat off the council.
We was in a two-bedroomed erm council flat but they were intended for old age pensioners like you know.
Right.
So that again was temporary.
Erm I think we was there about nine months.
It wasn't a bad place but er a very small one you know.
Erm from then we got a council house which is where the wife's living at the moment.
Erm  I think  I think we'd have been there about nin No.
About a year when we decided to split up.
So consequently she's living in  Bay and I'm living on my own in up in Holyhead.
I moved back to Holyhead and been living in a bedsit since June.
. Er and I got the job at the Centre in August.
Erm  went back into photography, that's basically all that's happened to me.
Er did you s w w when er when I saw you when you were living in 
Mhm.
Erm you gave a a very full account of the sort of pressures that erm you were under because you didn't have a job and you related it to the necessity of involving yourself in what you euphemistically called the black economy.
Erm er you've you've indicated that er you've separated now from your wife.
Yeah, that's right.
Erm do you think the fact that you didn't have a job, er contributed to that in any way?
Er that's a hard question.
Erm  I don't think it did.
I really don't think so.
Because we're both level headed people and  not having a job was obviously a big thing in our lives and I'd indicated to Anne that if we did move away, I would stand a much better chance of getting a job.
But she preferred to stay up here with her family and her friends.
So I then told her that if we were gonna stay here, the chances of me getting a job were very slim.
So she'd have to face the prospect of me being on the dole for a long time.
And she says she preferred that to to us having to move away.
Erm, I took her at her word, I still looked for work, I didn't stop looking for work but I took it that she was happy enough me being on the dole if it meant that we could stay around  Bay or Anglesey.
Erm we didn't have any major pr er the major problem was was money.
That was the only that was the only problem associated with not having work.
I kept myself very busy anyway erm in various erm hobbies that I had.
So she was ne er I was never under her feet.
I'm not the sort of guy that sits around the house like you know.
So I was never under her feet or any of them sort of problems that a lot of people find.
I find that friends of mine who are unemployed, their wives tend to th tend to think that they get under their feet a lot.
They're never away from each other, erm whereas myself I was always out.
And er I'd come up and stay with my brother in Holyhead about two or three times a week.
Er overnight like you know, er when I was doing my work at the centre, the unemployed worker's centre.
When I was involved in various projects I'd stay overnight so, I'd be out of the house at least six hours a day.
So it was just like I was working really except very poor wages like you know.
Erm  I think the the biggest problem we had in our marriage, and the reason it broke up, is because er I'm a a mixer and I love to get involved.
And Anne isn't.
She's the sort of woman that likes to stop at home and watch soap operas and and gossip about this person, that person and the other person.
With her friends like you know.
Erm and when she was talking to me about different people, I'd never know who they was,because I was never I was never that interested in  Bay to er to find out who they was or to remember she'd point out somebody and say that's so and so and then when she'd mention him a couple of days later I'd go, Who's that?
You know?
So I'd never get involved in the er in the gossipy side of  Bay life.
Er consequently we couldn't talk about anything.
She wasn't interested in my photography or er whatever I was involved in the centre.
And I wasn't involved in the gossip in  Bay.
We didn't stop talking like but the talk s just sort of stemmed around the house and the kids and it didn't go any further than that.
Although I tried to get her interested in hobbies, she just wasn't interested so.
And I put that down to the biggest contribution.
Just a lack of interest   in each other or .
You did express some er anxiety if I remember  when you spoke to me about erm not about not providing enough
Mhm.
for the for the family.
We were you ever under any sort of direct pressure to keep the money  
keep it coming in for for whatever ?
Erm Th it seemed to fluctuate.
There was pressure at times like er coming up to the start of a new season.
Obviously there was new school clothes that was needed.
Erm the mot pressure erm from that  for that sort of stuff was was came form me.
I felt I had to I When I went to school m my father couldn't afford very much and erm I remember starting the first term of first day of the term with shoes with a big split in it.
And the headmaster taking me on stage and showing everybody what a bad example I was, because I had shoes like crocodiles.
And that that made a big influence on me and I swore it'd never happen to my kids.
So the the biggest pressure for that type of thing came from myself.
I always made sure my daughter had new clothes to go to school with like you know.
Not just  but in g in good order all the way through the year.
So consequently at times there would be er periods of stress for myself, where I just had to get enough money to give my daughter some new clothes like you know.
And then there'd be clothes for Anne.
Anne liked to feel that er although she wasn't a teenager any more, that she was at least smartly dressed as well as the other women in  Bay like you know.
Myself I never worried about I was one of the biggest scruffs you've ever seen in your life actually.
Erm looking back on the photographs.
That was taken in the last few years, er I j I I've never bothered about clothes in my entire life.
What I look like.
Since I since I left school and I was able to afford my own clothes and I  knew that erm a responsibility for my own clothing was on my my own shoulders, it has never bothered me since, for myself.
but it always bothers me for other people like you know.
Erm but no real stress.
Once Anne had accepted the fact that I wasn't gonna work in the foreseeable future, and it was her choice that we stay, cos I gave her a clear choice, it was either move away where I could get work, or stay and suffer the wages of the dole like you know.
And once she'd made the choice that she wanted to stay, no matter what the consequences were as far as money were concerned, well that was it.
I didn't worry about that too much except just these periods when say a bill'd come in or clothes were needed, something like that.
How did you solve the problem then of er
of providing
Erm  a lot of it was working on the side.
Er that is what you call the black economy yeah?
Yeah.
Er when it was needed it wa it was always needed in a hurry.
Although we had we had warning that erm obviously that you knew the kids were gonna start a new season in September, you'd start saving the money and a bill would come up.
Something would come up, you'd need the money.
Now I think I told you last time that er the whole time me and Anne had been together, we're not drinkers.
It's very rare we go out.
We both smoke but er I smoke roll your own cigarettes and I and half an ounce lasts me a week.
So it's not a big expense like you know so that we weren't spending the money on ourselves, it's just needed in the house and needed for the kids like you know.
Erm we didn't waste money in any way.
But when it when a bill came up and it would take away the money that we'd saved for Kelly's new school uniform, so it always seemed to come in a rush and there was always something needed like you know.
Like next week you had a week or whatever, and then I'd just go out and er ask me friends wh who's hiring whatever.
I've done everything from working on a building site for a week and promising to bring me cards in and giving a false name, to er potato picking erm doing hay, anything.
There's a lot of it around there's  people just A lot of people these days see  the working on the side is a necessity.
And it' not just the people who are on the dole but the employers too.
The local farmers erm, building site contractors.
They see it as a necessity.
I was talking to a guy here now, erm who comes to the centre, about er two weeks ago.
And he'd he'd been on the dole er I think two years, and he's just started up a a building site.
a contracting business, and he's done it by the skin of his teeth.
But he's done it he's sold his he's mortgaged his house up to the hilt and everything.
And he won't employ  he won't employ full time workers.
He takes somebody and gives them the work on the side.
And he doesn't pay them any less than he pays a qualified man.
Than he would pay a qualified man.
He just won't do it.
He says the guys on the dole need need the work.
He says, I'll give it to them.
I see.
But he won't take anyone on full time for the simple fact that just takes one guy off the dole and and makes his life good.
Whereas, taking him taking one guy a week for a week, is putting no-one in jeopardy and giving somebody a decent wage for a week.
He says, I'd rather do that.
So when when you s use the word n necessary  
Yeah.
you meant that they thought it was a good thing to do.
Yes?
Erm  not a not a a good thing to do when I when I said necessary,without it a lot of people would er I don't know er aggravate I don't want to make it say more drastic than it is.
But myself, I'd have had to send my daughter to school on m more than one occasion with a tatty uniform.
And by working on the side wh which I say as very necessary to get her that uniform.
It wouldn't have made any difference to my daughter's well being, but it made a hell of a difference to her erm her social standing.
To the other kids.
Wh which is a major thing.
Th this impression that I got or er erm  that incident at school, played such a big part in my life after that, I was mortally embarrassed for the rest of my school life.
By that one thing.
Everybody knew that incident.
Everybody used to call me crocodile.
And it stayed with me right until I left school.
Even though I changed school halfway through.
Erm our school was pulled down and three schools amalgamated into one big co comprehensive.
And before the end of the first term everyone knew me as crocodile.
Even the other two schools you know.
So  it's a thing that stayed with me for a long time.
And that made a big difference to my life.
Erm to my self respect and I just I was determined that it wasn't going to happen to my daughter, so in consequence I saw that working on the side to get to get the uniform so that she could go to school in a new uniform same as all the other kids as a necessity.
Er it wasn't a a good thing it was just necessary.
And a lot of people that I've spoken to who've had problems have turned to that alternative because they could see no other.
If I'd have gone to the to the social services or er the D H S S and says to them, my daughter's got to have a new uniform to go to school with because her self respect is gonna suffer if she doesn't, they wouldn't have given be nothing.
They'd have just turned round and says, Well we can't help that, I'm sorry.
So I just went I knew I did the only thing that I knew I could do.
And that's work on the side and hope to get away with it.
And touch wood, I've never been caught.
You said that  in the nature of things you've always needed the money almost as of yesterday.
Yeah.
Erm so you have to get work fairly quickly.
Yeah.
When you er I mean you're in that er situation, how do you cope with the idea that you need the money, you need the job, but you've got to somehow sell yourself and get employed on the best terms?
Yeah.
Well obviously you compromise.
Erm  the most important thing was getting the money.
So you didn't haggle.
At all.
If a guy I mean I've worked for farmers I I actually worked for a farmer once from seven o'clock in the morning till nine o'clock at night for five quid.
And that wasn't the first day, that was eight days er eight days solid from Sunday to the Monday following Monday.
And I worked for him for five pound a day because we needed the money.
And there was nothing else going.
And that guy took advantage.
He knew I needed the money and he knew he'd got me for for a he'd have got me up at six o'clock in the morning if he'd have needed me.
No problem at all.
I was actually living on his farm at the time.
And he he used to get me up at seven o'clock, come to work for him.
He used to get me up at six to go in work for seven.
And if he'd have needed me at six he'd have got me up at five.
He used to give me an hours warning and then we'd work through until it got dark out in the fields and then we'd go into the sheds and restack the hay or whatever he wanted to do.
And he'd make sure he used me till about nine o'clock.
He just knew he had cheap labour.
I couldn't argue with that.
There was nobody else to turn to.
You know there was there was no other work going at that time.
So I just put up with it, and worked it.
And we got the money.
Was there ever a moment when you f when you were striking the  bargain  if one could call it that,
Mm.
when you when you knew that he'd got you by the short and curlies?
Oh yeah.
Definitely.
All the time.
You knew that he knew that.
Oh yeah  it was so obvious yeah.
Erm   this guy that I was working for h he's er he he was quite well known for it in the area.
Erm  that he w he he he knew that you needed the work.
And consequently that's why he only p I mean I'm talking now about  oh about four years ago.
Which is erm No I'm talking less than four years ago, I'm talking three years ago maybe.
And all the other farmers were paying the guys who were working for them on the side, ten pound a day, for working from nine o'clock in the morning till about five at night.
And yet this guy was paying me f er half that for tw nearly twice as many hours, yeah.
Erm he just knew it and he was well known for it.
He he was the last resort of anybody I knew.
But if they needed it, they knew they could always get work with him.
The guy was taking on ten people at o he he had ten people working for him in one day.
All at five pound a day.
And all working long hours.
I've never heard of anyone working the hours I worked but then again I was living there and that was my disadvantage.
He could get me any time.
And he knew I didn't have to be home for the kids or whatever, he knew my circumstances so well and he knew th exactly how much he could use me you know.
And he wouldn't let me go at nine o'clock if he thought I hadn't have been knackered and ready to fall down you know.
He'd have kept me there longer than that.
So in fact he knew that he was known as the last resort 
I'm I'm not so sure that he knew he was known as the last resort.
Ah.
But he knew he was well known for knowing that he'd got you.
And when when you come to him, you were desperate for work.
So he he probably did realize that he was he was the last resort, but I don't think he was the he was the type to actually think that out you know.
He just saw you as cheap labour and that was the end of it.
I don't think he actually thought about it.
Otherwise he his conscience would have bothered him I think.
He was a terrible guy.
Since I saw you last, has your has your girls gone to secondary school?
No.
She's still in er still in the small school.
Mhm.
Erm Wh wh wh what other means did you use to ensure that there was this you know, the family circumstances were kept up to par?
Erm well we sold things.
Did you?
Yeah, we've had to sell things now and again.
Another extreme last resort.
And that was the extreme last resort.
Erm oh God, she sold the wedding rings.
But that was quite early in the marriage that was.
Erm  we've sold endless tape recorders and Hi Fi's.
You name it, we've sold it.
We've had to.
And then we've basically the only two The only thing I haven't turned is crime.
If you don't call working on the side as a crime which I don't.
Erm I've never turned to stealing.
it's been uppermost in my mind a few times but the  I daresay I wouldn't go to prison the first time.
But you'd to me you don't you don't turn to stealing to do it for a one off.
If you're gonna turn to stealing, then from then on it's gonna be not the last resort any more, it's gonna be one of the first resorts because it pays so much quicker.
And in in the circumstances I'm talking about where I would work on the side, then it's always gonna be erm turning to the quickest resort, rather than the last resort you know.
So stealing being a quick resort, you'd I'd f I I know for a fact I'd find myself turning to it firstly and not lastly.
Which is wrong and I'll end up in prison.
And that's where I  don't want to be .
And I've never wanted to be.
Although I have been there myself.
But not for stealing, for erm something else.
So er I can't think of any other resorts I've turned to.
You
No.
you you talk er you know, when you were saying that you'd erm you'd sold an endless succession of of things,wh wh when you bought things, er you know when when you were married,it was there always that element in it that it was here for a just  
A short while.
a short while?
That that used to be mentioned between us er er a few times, I can remember it being mentioned a few times.
I wonder how long we'll have this one.
Erm  er  I think it wasn't really a problem.
Erm it it could have been a problem if we'd have both been so me materialistic that we wanted to keep everything we'd got hold of you know.
But  we knew that it was probably inevitable.
But we knew that also that erm if it had to go, I t had to go.
I if it was necessary then it would go, same as everything else.
Everything else would go too.
Erm but one thing I would say, is that erm  we didn't go into long term erm debt to get things like three pieces and and bedroom suite and things like this.
I suppose we could have pushed ourselves and got these things, but I think we both knew that erm if we did, we'd probably have to sell them halfway through paying for them.
And end up the same circumstances we was now, er with out the stuff that we'd we were paying for for the next six months of the year.
So this was mentioned in fact, I think at one stage.
We had so many conversations about about economy and all this er can't really remember.
I think it was mentioned once.
When er when the time came that you decided that er y you and your tape recorders whatever, had to part company, how do you how would you go about trying to get the best price for them?
.
Erm I don't think it was it was that difficult actually.
Er being on the dole and having friends who were long term on the dole, we tend to buy from each other a lot.
Ah.
So all you'd do is you'd cast about for a friend, you'd decide on a price that you would accept and if it was a friend, if you had to sell it and you needed fifteen quid to buy a pair of shoes or whatever, erm and you'd like twenty, you'd turn to a mate and go, Have you got twenty quid? and he he'd say yes or no.
If he says yes, then he's holding the tape recorder, if he said no, you'd say, Have you got fifteen?
And er he'd maybe say yes and he'd get it for fifteen you know.
But I've always had at least ten friends who are long term unemployed and we've always bought each other 's stuff.
You know he I I've even bought m my own tap er no it was a wireless.
I had erm an eight ba er eight band wireless which I bought for a hundred and twenty quid when I was working.
Erm when I first came out the army.
Paid a hundred and twenty pound for it.
I sold it once when I was skint for fifty quid, that was before I was married.
Erm and while I was married I bought it back for twenty and a few months later I sell it for ten pound.
To the same guy that I'd bought it for twe er for twenty off.
Mm.
So you know.
And he'd bought it off his friend who'd paid fifty for it.
So I couldn't I couldn't charge him twenty cos he'd only charged me he'd only charged me twenty so I had to sell him back to him for a tenner you know.
But er this hundred and twenty pound  radio  was knocking away for a five quid in the end er I er I heard.
And it was an excell it was an excellent radio.
It really was an excellent radio.
That's just the way it goes you know.
So er  there was er a market for  there was a market for all this?
Yes definitely.
Amongst er really a a small group a relatively small group.
Yeah, erm of course er some some you'd sold it to you might have other friends who you didn't have as friends.
Yeah.
So it would slip out of the group.
Right.
You know.
Erm  but like I say w er I'd have always had about ten friends who I would buy things off and they would buy things off me and they're all on the dole.
It's very rare you you'll find actually somebody who's working who would who would buy these things off somebody unemployed because they'd expect too much off them.
You know?
Er like if I was selling somebody who was employed, I erm I had a radio, if I was willing to accept twenty pounds off a friend of mine who was unemployed, I'd expect thirty of a guy who was working.
I wouldn't charge I I I'd try and get as much as I could off him cos he was working.
And he'd know that and he m he probably wouldn't buy it off me.
Because he knows that somebody else has has been offered it for twenty quid .
Or at least it will go for twenty quid in the end if he doesn't buy it.
So he won't buy it.
That's what I've always found anyway.
So when it came to  er I haven't really asked you whether you found the process of selling painful.
But I just assumed that it was.
Yeah?
Not at all.
Wasn't it?
Never never been that attached
No?
to things materialistic, no.
Do you think the blow such as it was in s s selling something, was it would it have been softened because you s there was a you knew the people you were selling to.
I mean if you had to take it along to a shop and 
Erm  that's fu it is it's a funny question that because I've never never liked selling to shops.
I've always much preferred to sell it to friends.
Erm so I suppose you could be right.
I suppose you could be right and I was feeling an a er an actual blow but not something I've ever thought about or never put into words like you know.
I've never actually thought about that.
I couldn't really have done it.
It's not something I would have considered.
I've always I've always felt  If I thought it was necessary then that's the end of it er as far as I know.
Er I haven't realized any any feelings of erm you know er sadness over selling it or anything like that.
It's always just been necessary and  there it goes you know.
So you could be right I don't know.
I don't really know.
Erm when you er had to stock up again  wh wh h h how would you do that?
Where would they come from?
Erm usually, new.
We'd buy new.
Even though we'd sold it for a ridiculously low.
When we were flush again and we could afford something, you'd get it from a catalogue or whatever.
Erm  we'd just buy new I suppose.
But occasionally well not occasionally but quite often, at least once or twice a week, you'd hear of somebody who is in the thieving business, they'd got something for sale and you could get that quite cheap.
And that was another source of stuff.
Erm that might have been as well another reason for selling to friends,erm because most of the stuff we bought anyway was new so that doesn't really come into it.
But if it was hot, or semi hot, we used to sell it to friends anyway, we wouldn't sell it to a shop.
Cos the same thing still apply because most of the stuff was new but we had  of hot stuff over the years like.
Which is another  another for of necessity.
Er as I see it.
I'd never turn anyone in that turned to stealing.
Unless of course, they stole from people I know didn't deserve it.
Mostly shops and not as  easy targets or not as deserving targets but just as targets.
If they started pinching from old people and things like that 
Erm were you under any er any any pressure to accept  erm g g goods that had been acquired by indirect roots?
Erm 
No.
You weren't at all?
No.
I mean they there was a fact that they knew you were  unemployed er or wasn't in any s You were yours yourself a target.
Yeah.
Erm I wasn't aware of it.
I wasn't aware of it at all ever.
I'd just be offered same as e most of my friends and other people that are une were offered.
Mhm.
And you ei you had a chance to say yes or no.
If you said no, that was the end of it.
Erm  the only thing I've I've never considered buying hot is camera gear.
Er because the I say photography is er something I'm gonna ca continue with and if I start buying hot gear then I can't use my equipment where and when I'd want to.
You have to be careful where you're taking it and all the rest of it.
So er I've never considered that.
I've found myself under pressure to say yes, when somebody's brought along a nice new spanking camera and er I just c couldn't accept it.
But no-one's ever put me under pressure.
Not that I'm aware of anyway.
You er last time I saw you, you were  I didn't know whether you'd been starting up in er in photography but you had been  next door I think or  I'd seen a lot of your stuff.
Yeah.
But you you you w you w you were getting into it and you had high hopes for developing your work.
That's right yeah, I was also er doing a bit for a guy in  at the time.
Erm  things didn't work out that way because  he found he was er could do cheaper himself.
Well not so much cheaper cos I was most of the time I was doing it for nothing anyway.
Erm he got his own interest er and in the end he decided on all his own stuff like you know.
I suppo I suppose it was cheaper in a way because erm he found himself in the shop a lot more, he couldn't afford the staff that he had, he had used to have two people working for him.
He had to let one go so he was in the shop a lot himself.
And there wasn't really enough work for two people.
Erm so he set up the corner as a darkroom and started doing playing about with his with his own black and white printing.
So er I fell off with that one.
Erm I lost interest in photography f er after a while because the er  the photography at the centre, there's always been ever since I joined, there's been six of us who had er a l a lasting thing with photography.
There'd be other people come and had we'd show them round the darkroom and teach them how to print, how to take pictures, and as soon as they knew how to do that, they'd fall off and go away.
And we st we tried to start up Well I tried to start up erm a sort of self help workshop where we all we got materials off the centre, they supplied the materials.
We went out, we took photographs, we come back, we printed them up and we helped each other to learn more techniques and whatever.
We all read books and passed on what we learnt to the others.
There was only  two of us  that showed any interest at all in that and that was the guy that was working here, he was running the photography and myself.
The rest of them just e didn't put anything into it at all.
And er I just lost interest all together and stopped doing it.
I was I used to come up here every week anyway, cos I had friends here but erm I never er I didn't take pictures for months and months and months.
So that really fell off.
And it's only just just lately since I split with the wife er I took a couple of months to sort myself out.
Cos although it was an amicable split, I still needed time to settle down and get used to the fact that I was on my own again.
Erm  kids.
And sor sort out which direction I was going.
And after I got the job at the centre, erm that took up a lot of time for er a few weeks till I settled down.
And then I r I realized that the job was only gonna last a year, cos it's only a year job, so the best thing I can do is to go  all out for what I wanna do when I leave the centre.
So I'm using every resource I can a at the centre to push my photography at the moment.
Hoping that by August next year, something'll come of this photography and I can walk straight  into a maybe go to a college or if that isn't on the cards, into some sort of a technical lab or something.
Something that'll keep me going in photography anyway.
I don't think I'm good enough to set up on my own.
I don't know what August will bring but I don't think so.
But at the moment I'm really pushing on the er erm portrait photography cos I'm quite good at that.
See what that com see what comes of that.
You s you you said that you're using every resource
Mhm.
within the centre 
How
Yeah.
Yeah .
Erm what I'm doing basically is er putting on as many exhibitions as I can using the centre's name and making sure that I've got a good amount of my work in there, although I don't push anybody else out.
They don't really contribute as much as they could, so that leaves me with an awful lot of space.
So I push as much of my stuff over as I can.
Erm  I used the centre's resources like the phones and that for phoning round.
Er the various exhibition places asking about that, and making sure they all know my name.
I write them letters, I get people to send er like Photo Gallery in Cardiff, erm I rang them up, they were sending us stuff and it was addressed to a woman that used to be in the ph er activities officer about fou three years ago.
Or even four years ago, four years ago.
And nobody bothered changing it, because the stuff's still coming in anyway, nobody's changed the name.
So I rang up and changed the name to my name so that sh sh the women who runs Photo Gallery in Cardiff, now knows that Ken  runs the photography group in Holyhead, so she knows my name now.
And she rang up here when when they offered us the space, she rang up here and asked for me.
Which is a step in the right direction, she knows my name.
So th that's that's the sort of thing I'm doing.
And the place is used a lot erm like the local Trade's Council meet here, and I make sure that I open up for them.
Cos they meet on an evening that we're not used.
The centre's not used like next Wednesday, they're coming here.
And I make sure that I'm here and I open up for them, and I make them a cup of tea.
So the local Trade's Council all know me and I think they all like me as well, so.
Anyway I can push myself forward with the local people and w an anybody with anything to do with photography.
That's what I do.
Using everything I can get.
I've also I forgot to mention when you said i has anything happened to you?
I also have done some work for the local papers as well.
I was at one time er the ph printer Not the photographer but the printer for erm a free hand out paper called the Islander.
I used to do all their printing for them for their photographers..
just needs to be erm  back again.
Yeah I was doing their printing for them and er I've also taken a few shots for the Chronicle.
And one or two for the Mail.
Erm so that way as well like you know.
You said that erm Photo Gallery, is it in in in Cardiff,
Yes  
had allocated you some space.
That's right yeah.
No 
Is it a pr is it a prestigious
Yeah it's very prestigious actually erm er a local photographer who was helping us to run the er the photography workshop we call it, not a class because we we we don't teach formally, we just work together and help each other out.
Erm he is a very good landscape photographer e er in a same style as Ansell Adams who's his hero.
And he does very very good work.
Excellent work.
And he does twenty by sixteen prints you know, er which he tries to sell.
He isn't selling very many, I don't know why.
Erm  he wrote to Photo Gallery and asked them for er an exhibition date and they gave him one in nineteen ninety.
So for them to actually come and ask for our work to be exhi er exhibited there, is excellent.
But it's not just erm it's not just this unemployed worker's centre, they're asking ten they want ten unemployed worker's centres throughout Wales to contribute work.
But what we're doing is making sure that ours is gonna be the best there like you know.
That's what we're trying for anyway.
Cos we haven't seen the rest yet.
But er that's what we're hoping for.
But it's v er everybody's trying to get in there.
Erm lots of new photographers exhibit there and lots of the old established photographers exhibit there.
Er Fay Goodwin has just had one there.
Oh yes.
So you know.
And at the moment we're on the ninth of this month, I received a copy today they s they sent me some material, erm they've actually been given photographs by people like er Ansell Adams, Fay Goodwin, er David er  Bailey.
Couldn't remember his name.
Good God, he'd never forgive me.
David Bailey er they've all given prints for them to sell to help the funds out at the ce at the er Photo Gallery.
So that's how prestigious it is like you know there.
Everybody uses it.
And a lot of people go there to have a look.
A lot of the photographers you know.
So it's a it's a good place to be.
No doubt about it.
So you've got the  er somehow the idea of a career has formed?
Yeah.
Erm I wouldn't say it's an idea, I'd say it's a hope.
A great hope.
I'm hoping to do it.
What I what I'd really hope for is to be able to do it without having to go to college and just do it by experience but that's I'd have to be awful awful good.
Especially as I don't like colour and I only like black and white.
I hate colour photography.
Erm I don't just hate the thought of doing, I just I don't like colour photographs at all.
They don't do anything for me at all.
I I love the tonal range in black and white.
So erm I'm hoping to be able to do it, just off what I can do,m my experience as it is like.
Or what it will be by the time I've finished this job.
But it's it's a it's a hard field to break into.
it really is.
And I think the most I'll get out of it, at least for a few years, is local portrait photography.
It'll only be  after I've m met a few people and photographed them well, that maybe my name will be start to be mentioned around  That is another reason for courting the Trade's Council and any other councillors that come in.
And th any other bigwigs that come in.
I er I court them a lot.
And when when my technique has improved, because I I've as I said, I've just started getting back into po portrait photography, and I forgot a lot of what I learnt before.
Now when that's improved enough, I'm gonna start asking these councillors and that if I can take their photograph.
And when I've done a a spot on photograph for them, when somebody else is mentioning a photograph, you know, er to go up in the Town Hall or whatever, er they the local mayor has just had one done  by one of the guys in the workshop, and I know for a fact I could do one that's ten times better than that.
But I haven't said so obviously.
You don't do that sort of thing.
Erm  but I'm hoping that one day he'll see I know he's seen my work and I think I've got a sneaking suspicion that when he came in here he was gonna ask me to do it.
Erm but he got he got sidetracked by this guy, and they were talking and he he mentioned a photograph, and he got in like you know.
I w I wouldn't swear on that but I think that's what happened.
Cos he was looking at me when he come in.
And he was moving in my direction, although I didn't know he was coming in for a photograph.
Erm and it was only afterwards reflecting on it I think he was coming to me.
Er cos he had seen he had seen two or three of my prints.
But he hasn't seen the rest.
And I think that once I've taken e a few of the local bigwigs, then when they want a photograph taken, my name'll get mentioned somewhere along the line and they might come to me.
I you mentioned going to college or or rather not going to college.
Mm.
Yeah?
Erm is it something you want to avoid or so or not?
Erm  I'd re I'd really like the the experience and the knowledge that I could learn at college, but I'd like to take a short cut too.
I'd like to work in photography now instead of you know erm going to college and spending four years at college.
I don't see it as a waste of time, but I see it as erm, as may be an as a a n a necessary delay.
I do see it as a delay even though w I'm gonna learn and my technique'll improve a hundred percent.
I'm just hoping that I could learn as I'm as I'm earning you know.
Well not earning but learn as I'm actually working in photography like.
I'd like to work with with er a good photographer, rather than go to college.
I reckon I could learn a a lot more.
I dislike I dislike the idea of learning in a in a formal class.
I like the idea of learning on the job you know.
That appeals to me a lot more.
But it's hard to do.
You s you you've indicat er you you've sort of g given  an impression that er this er this  the centre h depends if you want to get a lot out of it, you've really got to sort of work at it quite hard to er bring it up to anything together.
I d didn't quite understand that.
missed a word there.
In the sense that er you say that you had a camera club
Yeah.
or 
Aha.
Erm but it really depended, the persons who really got the stuff out of it was just two people in the end.
That's true yeah, that's because the others weren't willing to to put in.
The s working at the centre I I can tell you that one of the especially being the activities officer which is what I am, one of the biggest problems with the centre, is not being able to put things on, it's getting people to be interested in them.
There's an awful lot of apathy in Holyhead.
I used to say beforehand but I wasn't as totally convinced as I am now.
I am totally convinced that the people in Holyhead want you to put things on, pick them up at the door, drop them off, teach them how to do it er and drop them back again.
And that's the only way they consider going.
We've had to cancel five classes that we set up erm in November.
Five different classes we had to cancel because nobody turned up.
Er one of them I was running myself which is on on maintenance.
Er which is a something that a lot of people mention to me.
You know, er, Oh I wish I could learn how to change a p put on a plug properly.
Or change a fuse or mend a chair.
Whatever.
So I've done all this, I'm quite a handyman in the house, so we talked about it at the cen at the centre here and we actually asked another guy to do it, who's erm sixty odd and he comes in here everyday er and he was willing to to start it or to run it.
And we was gonna when we saw the interest, when the when it was proved there was enough people coming, we were gonna buy him the tools for that, to do the job properly.
Erm, the buy who was gonna do it, unfortunately has eye trouble and er towards the beginning of the start, quite near to the start his er eye trouble picked up a lot more.
And he he couldn't do it, he couldn't concentrate.
So I took it over, no problem at all.
And I was running it and the first week I got there, and one guy turned up.
And he turned up because he turns up for everything.
No matter what it us you know .
So  I taught him how to change a fuse.
It took me two hours to cha to teach him how to change a fuse an and erm w w wasn't only how to change a fuse but the correct fuse for the the correct appliance like you know.
So I taught him that the first week, and the second week we went back and there was still only him, so it I taught him how to rewire a plug how to do it properly and er went back a third week and he was s still the only one there, so we went through it again, see if he'd picked it up and he hadn't so.
Now he can ch he can actually wire a plug properly.
Which is a Godsend.
Because the way he was  wiring them to start with, would have killed somebody in the end .
So he got something out of it but he was the only one that ever turned up.
And I went there four weeks.
And nobody turned up for it.
And yet eve er quite a lot of people had mentioned it and it was well advertised.
One of my jobs here is to erm is to sell the centre in a sense.
And we use newspapers, we don't use the television because we can't get on it.
Er I actually make, whichever comes up, I make a poster for it, and I blitz the town with them.
E there's hardly a shop ion Holyhead you can go into wh which hasn't got one of my posters in it, for something or other like you know.
And usually for all of them.
Which is a lot of posters.
Erm  and just people just they just won't come.
They just don't like to get involved in something which is ongoing for a few weeks you know.
The main thing seems to be sport.
The young guys will come for the sport, the young unemployed.
Erm but if this trend continues, I can see them shooting down the activities side of this this place and just using it as an advice centre.
Cos there's already a a s a sport's centre.
And er .
And if we're doing the same thing, they're gonna s sooner of later they're gonna click and they're gonna say, Well you know, that's too much of a good thing like you know.
Shut one of them down, it'll probably be us.
See it coming.
It's a terrible place this.
You've erm  you've you've indicated that er you you used the word a apathy.
Is I mean i Do you think it the fact that there is it is an area of high unemployment has anything to do with it at all?
Erm I really don't know.
I couldn't say actually.
It's  it's something I've obviously thought a lot about.
Because my job depends on it.
M My job depends on getting them in here.
The more people I get in and get involved in classes, the better it's gonna look at the end of the year.
Erm I've obviously though about it quite a lot and I can't figure out a reason for it.
I can't say that it's high unemployment be I don't know, what's unemployment got to do with it.
If they've got free time .
Yeah.
If people are gonna sit around the house while they're unemployed, they're probably the same people who sit around the house when they're on a Saturday and Sunday when they're working you know.
They just don't do anything with a Saturday and Sunday.
I've known loads of people who who are working full time, and they come home Friday and the go out Friday night, stand up at the bar, and drink twenty pints or whatever, ten pints.
And they they they go home and they don't move out the house until Monday morning.
terrible people.
I don't know I just can't understand  what drives these people at all.
I couldn't live an existence like that.
I've got to get something out of life.
You know besides the fact that I I wanna work when I'm when I'm not working, I still like to to get out the house and get involved in something.
Otherwise you there's no point.
I co I couldn't I couldn't go to work Monday and Friday, Monday to Friday and then spend all the weekend in the house and then just go to work Monday to Friday again, and do that week in and week out.
There's no I I can't see what's in life for em at all.
It's terrible.
But that's seems to be what a lot of the people round here do.
I know for a fact my my own brother, and I mentioned this before, the last interview.
He spent seven years just sitting on his backside in the house.
And he ruled his house with a rod of iron you know.
Every decision that was made in the house was his, his wife had no say in it.
Er he said what was gonna be cooked for tea, he said when there was a cup of tea made.
His house was in his entire kingdom.
And he didn't want anything else.
For seven years he didn't want anything else.
And then he moved to Holyhead.
Erm and he started coming to this centre  he he came to the centre once or twice with  my other brother for some advice I think, welfare right advice.
And then he bought a computer  to use in the house, nowhere else like,s it was still his house was his kingdom.
And he found he couldn't handle it.
So hearing there was computer classes here, he started coming and he didn't like it and he stopped.
And then after a couple of weeks he still couldn't get on with his computer, so he came back.
And he stayed, and now he drops in here most days of the week and he practically runs the computer class in there.
And he actually mixes with people which is something he's never done.
That guy has never mixed with people and yet now he just he mixes with everybody .
So this this centre has actually changed his life.
And his attitude a hell of a lot.
But like I say for seven years he just sat and didn't want to do nothing.
And a lot of people are like that.
Has the has the centre in any sense  erm  political linkings?
Erm   again that's a hard question because I'm thoroughly non-political, absolutely non-political.
Erm I know for a fact that Peter  who who's the supervisor erm is a staunch Labourite and er union man, same as Geoff  but neither of them push it.
Er the centre's supposed to be totally non-political and if it ever got political, they'd close us down.
The same as they did with the one in Bangor, they closed that down for being political.
Er some of the comments  political I suppose yeah.
But there's no erm there's no sort of political influence at all.
That I can see.
But me being me, I could miss it.
Because it goes straight over my head anyway.
If it was subtle.
Unless it was out and out  screaming, Let's kill Thatcher, I wouldn't even notice it I don't think.
So you're asking the wrong person I'm afraid for that one.
You you'd have to be very er very hard line for me to notice it.
Ah yes.
Yeah I'll have to go.
Thank you very much Ken.
Excellent.
Well I hope I've been of some help.
Yes you have indeed.

When my mother was young she was  down there.
And she gave the school, no she gave them  did that much, that they brought for here school books, and she finished her education in .
And if I mind right I think it was some kind of relational  that used to e in the bank, that was a teacher there.
And then she they they lived in Stummerslake she was born in Greamsee 
What size of a school would there have been in  
Oh it would have been half as small, and she used to tell us grand stories with them setting off in the morning with their a bottle of milk and their , it's like a pi with them, to keep the fire going to keep them warm and everything.
Oh what grand stories she did tell.
And what was it like as a small bairn  Pharay then?
Well she thoroughly enjoyed the life, in fact right up, oh till nearly the end she spoke about Pharay and as long as she was able she used to go and she imagined she could see it better with the spy glasses.
She loved Pharay, she loved the country she loved the people.
And they were half a good  smile, and  they did not  tell  who's ninety two.
Mhm.
And what was it like for for a bairn on on Pharay?
Oh I think that the  well more or less kind of like what it'll be when we were young.
They made their own amusements, and she learnt to knit and they had long winter nights round the fire o and they used to go She used to call it, we used to go after day set, that she called evening.
And they'd visit one another and take their knitting with them and sit and yarn, and that was all the enjoyment.
I don't Never heard her speaking very much about games.
But oh she was perfectly happy there.
How many were at the school?
I don't ken.
It wouldn't have be so  a great number.
How big is Pharay?
Oh God, I don't ken.
I have no idea.
It's not that big.
Would there have been maybe about How many houses?
Maybe about a dozen houses, I don't ken.
I have visited the house that my mother stayed at, er called the North House Aye, it was just a pretty bit of a But and beam 
What did the folk do?
Well they crofted in small way I suppose, and went the fishing.
And they had what they called a floating shop, you know just a bit of  a s a boat that came, Oh I think it was once a week, and they used to go and get supplies off of it.
Aha.
Oh no, she loved the life in Pharay.
Mhm.
And you've always lived in Stromness?
All my days and hope I finish it here.
All me days.
Can't understand what families want to go away at all.
What was Stromness like when you small?
Oh it was super.
It was quiet, but there was different things that amused us that the bairns would just laugh at today, I mean, there was no pictures or things like that.
That we'd go to the shore, and we'd spend a whole day there, no lemonade and biscuits then.
A bottle of water or a pale of water and maybe maybe  biscuits, I don't ken, and we had  different games, and there was a a game.
like those certain games that you played at certain seasons of the year.
Like maybe now about this time of the year we would start with skipping, and then in the winter time, we well there was has a lot of , we would just seem to amuse ourselves.
We  Peedie concerts and things like that.
And Oh me mother was  good.
She would read  and everything else, and there was nine of us children  had that much time, but we had a very happy childhood in lots of ways.
They did not have electricity, it would be oil lamps and some of them I cannot mind when gas would come.
But it would be old lamps and Peedie bits of  and when you speak about long ago times I associate the smell of paraffin and sawdust and cooking apples and all that you go into Peedie shops and there was a fine relationship, you go in and Well I used to be  for the old folk and they were all awful good to me, and the  particular and we used to go every Saturday night to a shop called Blacks and it stayed open till nine o'clock.
But there was Oh what to me seemed, in that days, to be oh awful grand shops for baking and what not.
Folk would not look at it nowadays.
been a kind of  peedie that's indust industrious and what not.
And it was basically long ago in the Well in me mother's day, there was the herring fishing, it was a busy time then.
Was your mother involved in that?
Well not in the herring fishing but er there was also a a salt fish kind of processing place out in the Hens And me mother work at it and she used to tell us about I supposed they'll be not rubber boats in that d days.
Or the protective  that we have now, and they would have sometimes have to weigh the whole .
And send a whole day with , and it never hurt them.
And then in the herring fishing time, oh it was very busy right enough, and you see they did they did no fish on a Sunday and they would come in on a Saturday night.
And me mother used to say y you could you could have walked from the point of Ness, to the pier, how were the boats were that tightly packed in.
And I remember herring fishing in me young days.
It was the it was  boats in me mother's day, of course then the drafters was .
Anyhow it was like the sea and boats and everything else and I used to I was working in a shop and I use to get up early in the morning and go down and tally all the numbers and names of the boats and  and there was an old man came in to shop while I was working in and asked about a certain boat, I says oh I can tell you,trek down .
And I give him the whole book what lists names and numbers and what not.
And I got a great big box of chocolates of him.
Oh Well I always loved the sea, i don't think I could live without seeing the sea.
You said your mother could walk across?
Well when the tide was low, they would walk for the outer homes, then their hens and back again.
And sometimes it would be a good  of water you see, and they would get their feet wet.
You can still walk across it low tide.
I've done it myself when I was young.
What kind of a job did you do then?
What what white fish was it?
It would be cod and ling and maybe haddock, I don't ken.
Just what salt fish you had.
And who was processing them?
Well if I mind right, I think my mother used to speak about man,, that had this fish curing station over at the hens 
And did he employ fisherman to fish for him?
Maybe the local fisherman did, where he got the fish I could not say.
Or it might have been a bigger concern than I ken.
And maybe he had other outside boats took fish to them too.
But me old mother certainly spoke a lot about this  and the and the salt fish.
How did they cure them?
What what kind of a job was it?
They would salt them down and let them lie in the brine for a while and they would take them out and dry them.
What way they dried them, whether it was in the sun or if they'd anything to dry them with, I don't ken.
But they made a great thing with the salt fish.
It must have been awful bad in the hens 
Mhm.
I don't think 
they would have  rubber gloves or any in that days.
It was the same with the herring gutters that was here, I mind them working on the pier down here, and they all had their fingers tied up with Clotes There was  the skill that work in this.
Where did all the rest come from?
Oh well they the North east a lot of them, if they all  Oh my they would not do it nowadays.
No.
In all weathers the poor critters would be standing parking and what not.
For very little money.
What sort of hours did they have?
They would start in the morning er I would say maybe eight o'clock, I dunno maybe sooner.
And they'd still be working well on after s What we call tea time.
And what about your mother, when she worked at the the white fish station?
Well i think she'd go off early in the morning and then would come home about teatime.
they'd take a piece with them and that was all they had to sustain them the whole day.
Oh it was hard hard times.
It's a wonder that they were as fit as they were.
I would only been six or seven when the war started.
It started in nineteen fourteen.
First I mind about it was the first zeppelin that came over.
Great big thing like a huge balloon and lived out at Ness and I mind me mother coming and getting us early and this great big thing come over.
Who was in it?
Why it be Germans.
What were they doing?
Reconnoitring about the fleet likely.
That was the bigger threat The big thing that brought them to Orkney.
It was not I suppose for anything other than the Flow that they came up as far as Orkney.
Do you remember the British warships being in the flow in the first  ?
Oh yes.
When they would come in there would be like a  all lit up, beacon.
What were the bairns told at school about the war?
Oh we Oh I suppose we were told about the war but being young and heedless we would not take it all in.
I was ten when we could .
And all I ken was that we got word that there was to be a school trip and that we were leaving I forget what tie in the morning, and going down to see the German ships.
Did you know about the fact that they'd been captured?
No, I did not realize it.
And I was only one out the family of nine that volunteered to go and none of me brothers or none of them that was all keen on the sea, they did not seem to want to go.
And I went.
I dunno it was arranged but it was a a small water boat that took us down, the Flying Kestrel.
Oh we left and oh we were all excited about going on what  a great big boat and it was in fact only a small water boat.
And we were all enjoying it and looking forward to going to see this big ships and whatnot.
Sailing along quite the thing and we were right down I dunno how far, if we were right in the middle of them or just on the edge of them, but we were not far from them.
When there was a sense of unrest and what not, and then first one ship then the other, starts shuddering but before that happened we saw Germans coming off in the rafts and that.
Some of them swimming in the sea and whatnot.
I was terrified.
And then the the ships shuddered and  and some would go down by the stern and others would topple up and they'd be great fountains of water.
By his time I was terrified and I don't ever be so  and our teacher took us down below and tried to play games  my mind I distinctly howling my .
And eventually we got they were frightened you see, that the suction of the boats going down would pull the the water boat under.
So we turned and came back and oh it was grand.
We got a grand welcome home.
Did nobody have any idea what was going on at the time?
I don't suppose No they wouldn't have any warning about this going to happen or they would never have taking a lot of bairns down among it.
It was just very spontaneous surely.
But they had it very well arranged, the Germans did.
But there was a big loss of life as well, but what frightened me was this Germans coming over on Peedie bits of rafts and the men swimming in the sea and whatnot 
Were you frightened because it was Germans?
Yes.
I was terrified of the Germans.
Well what did you think they were going to do?
Well i had no idea.
Maybe come and kill us or something  like that.
I did not ken .
I was just terrified out me wits.
When  our people what was going on and one thing and another.
But I As I say I were young and I wouldn't have been paying particular attention.
But oh we were told about the war and what was happening between the Germans and whatnot.
And did you think that the Germans were were bad or?
Oh yes very bad.
Well there was lots of families you see that had their boys and men and sweethearts and all at the front it was a sad time.
People that you knew, you know, getting wires and that to say that their menfolk had either been killed or were missing or some like that.
That sticks out in my mind.
But our family was too young to me in the war like me brother.
In 
What I mind of the last war it was too busy then.
Very very hectic.
I forget how many troops were here.
But we lived near a battery, we lived out at Whale Park And when they they deciding give the  Elizabeth was just a baby then and I used to grab Elizabeth and go in the bed and  the d down quilt and the pillows on top of us and lie tight and send you until the  was in the sitting room and the search light follow the plane was at The plane was that near the house that the searchlight come right into the window, and the next I ken was the bullets ricocheting off the roof.
Where did the bullets come?
The German plane that the searchlight was following.
It was a German plane coming over.
And the searchlights the the battery that we were The camp that we were near, they opened fire and the  battery would open fire at that, and the searchlight anyway came in through the window.
It was not a very fine experience.
Were there a lot of air raids at that time?
Oh well there was quite a lot of warnings and whatnot but er on the whole there was a lot but no more than any other place.
But oh it was busy busy then.
Where did all the troops stay?
There was some of them billeted in private houses, and we just had a two r bedroom house out at Whale Park a Peedie bungalow.
And you were If you had a spare room you were all Well I think you were forced to take in troops and we had Elizabeth, a baby, and we had lodgers, nearly all the wartime.
We kept two at a time, sometimes one and not what not.
And then there was the  were staying our, the Stromness  and the commercial  and and that.
And the distillery and then, of course, there was camps at the Belt 
What about amusements?
Well speaking personally I had plenty of amusement butt here was pictures and there was mess dos and parties and  what not.
Oh it was a gay life.

Okay, thanks.
Right colleagues, could we turn to a period of rule amendments and er general motions now.
Rule thirty seven on branches, er motion seventy seven, rule amendment to be moved by the Midland and East Coast region.
And colleagues, could I start and remind delegates that if there are seconders or additional speakers on this side, if they would use this rostrum to my right, if they would use this rostrum.
Now there are chairs available for additional speakers so if they would come down it would certainly expedite the business of congress.
Thanks President.
President, conference, Ken  Midlands and East Coast region moving motion seventy seven, otherwise known as go-lightly.
Conference, this particular motion calls for an increase of members required to form a branch or be allowed to continue as a branch should it lose members.
An increase from fifty to a hundred members would allow greater flexibility for our regional committees in the regions to decide whether they allow the branch to continue or to amalgamate with another branch.
Therefore the increase in numbers to a hundred, for this particular rule, seems to be a logical move, as a branch with less than fifty would be unrepresentative of the G M B both from a democracy point of view and an administration point of view where cost plays an enormo important role.
With the  document being debated this week, we should beware of making branches accountable to its members, and increasing the numbers to one hundred gives us a greater base to work from than fifty.
Therefore conference, please support, I move.
Thanks very much colleagues.
Is that formally seconded?
Formally seconded.
are recommending you to accept motion seventy seven colleagues, all those in favour  against, that's carried.
Thanks very much.
Pensions and social security benefits, I call composite motion twenty six, women and state pensions.
G M B Scotland to move and London region to second, priority in debates  Northern region.
Okay, if the seconder and additional speakers would come down to the front, please.
Conference, chair, Mary , Falkirk , G M B Scotland.
We have argued for many years that the present discrimination on the grounds of sex and state pensions and retirement age is unjustifiable.
A much wider consultation process must be initiated, before far-reaching changes can be agreed.
The whole question of an adequate income in retirement can be achieved, and changes necessary to enable them must be worked at.
Few, if any, of the media commentators nowadays  for the status quo.
The need for equalization of state pension ages seems to be all but agreed.
The main focus has centred round the age at which the basic state pension and SERPS are available and whether some flexibility is desirable.
For this reason we will argue for current level basic state pensions and SERPS from the age of sixty, to both sexes.
The present sixty, sixty five regime is discriminating against men, but when in reality it is the women who are in the much inferior position.
The fact that families when one woman in six retires with an entitlement to a full basic pension, based on her own level of payments, speaks volumes.
Even when members of occupational schemes, women's length of membership generally means that the level of benefit payable will be inferior to men.
Many people are unaware of that fact.
The fact that the basic state pension is not a universal benefit, but is based on the level of payment,.
You have to earn enough for long enough, ninety percent of your working life, to qualify.
Consequently we will argue that for the very least we need current levels of basic state pension and SERPS, and see that they are available to both men and women from the age of sixty.
The conclusions are, discrimination must end at the earliest opportunity for both men and women  changes should include a full and p proper consultation exercise.
For those in occupational schemes there should be a provision that if a person so wishes, they should be allowed to work to sixty five without any loss of pension rights.
I move.
Congress, president, Ed , Westminster trade union political staff's branch of the London region, seconding the composite.
Congress, this composite is about a deceit, a deceit by the Tory government, of men and women, over their working lives  women in particular who have been contributing their stamp all their working lives and are now being told that there is a danger that they will not get their state pensions at sixty.
Conference, it is absolutely vital that those people are protected.
We must ensure that we campaign as hard as possible, that sixty becomes the state pension age for all our members, men and women.
Congress, if as a trade union, and if as a labour movement, you stop going forward in campaigning, there's only one thing that happens  you start to go backwards, because this government will always try and take from working class people, all the time.
We must campaign strongly to ensure that men and women still have a state pension that isn't just a pittance at sixty.
I second.
President, congress, John , supporting composite twenty six.
We trust the C E C to campaign vigorously against the Tory Party proposal of increasing women's pension age to sixty five.
This Tory proposal must be seen by  one of the most unacceptable, and unprincipled acts of this  government.
Look at what they've done  given nine billion to their wealthy friends to move them into private pensions  supported pension holiday because company funds are so big  increased national insurance so we're all paying more,even though we get less  and compare this with the disadvantage, women first.
Very few enjoy a personal pension  very few enjoy an occupational scheme  the greater majority gain nothing from SERPS  only one in six receive a full state pension.
So you have on the one hand, handouts to the rich  on the other hand, money taken from the poor.
A typical underhand, unprincipled Tory policy, wouldn't you say?
A policy supported by their backing group, the C B I  both in the game of using frightening tactics in attempt to prove their case, saying whilst they would like to equalize pensions to sixty, it simply can't be afforded, claiming it would cost upwards of forty billion, and adding the usual, this cost will damage the economy.
Whilst we all agree, they know how to damage the economy  we also know that the cost of equalizing at sixty would be no more than ten billion.
Now it's funny, but  same amount as they have spent on persuading their wealthy friends to take out private pensions.
Congress, we are bound to come to only one conclusion  that equalizing pensions to sixty will be of benefit to all people, and the Tories are definitely not supporting that approach.
and those in advantageous positions, the rest of us just don't count.
Support our motion, don't let this unprincipled lot get away with this policy.
Let's tell the people and do this with an effective national campaign.
Thank you.
Colleagues, could I just advise congress at this stage what we're, we've gotta do  erm, and I think this will form the basis of what we're trying to do to expedite business during the course of the week.
We're gonna take groups of motions together, and in this particular section, the next one will be motion three six nine which will have movement seconded, motion three seventy, three seven one, three seven two and then composite twenty seven.
Now there are several of those that will require a statement being accepted by the executive but there'll be a statement on behalf of the C E C, and there's at least one where there'll be a qualification.
So, at the end of the debate I'm gonna ask the C E C speaker, in this case it will be the general secretary, John , to repl reply to the whole of the er, the debate.
So, not saying that will be the situation in every case, but certainly there will be a number of occasions during the week, er when that kind of arrangement will apply, and hopefully it will help us to get through the business a little bit, er, quicker.
I now call the mover of motion three six nine, standing charges to be moved by the Lancashire region  and if there is a seconder, if he or she could come down.
President, conference  with the introduction of V A T on gas and electric bills, this motion becomes even more important.
It was bad enough when pensioners had to pay the standing charges on their gas, water and telephone bills.
It is even worse now that they have got to pay V A T on those bills as well.
These pensioners have to pay standing charges whether or not they use the service, just to ensure that they can use the service when needed.
The telephone  is very often the only link these loyal citizens have with the outside world  they can no longer walk in safety to the local telephone box to make their calls, and even if they could, when they get there it is out of order.
It is pensioners in particular who paid for British Telecom when it was owned by the State  their taxes ensured that the telephone system in the U K, it became amongst the best in the world.
We owe it to these people and British Telecom owes it to these people  just let them pay for what they use  get rid of the standing charge.
I move.
seconder.
Formally seconded, thanks very much.
Motion three seventy television licences.
Lancashire region to move again 
I know.
Well, up twice in the first day  er, sorry, Bernie , Lancashire region moving motion three seventy.
President, conference, as I say, up twice in the first day  it's a cracking conference that starts with motion three seventy and works backwards to number one  it's better than Thunderbirds really.
Seriously though, motions like this one have been debated over and over again.
Anybody who disagrees with giving the pensioners the right to watch T V without having to pay a licence charge is either the English football manager  hoping to God nobody sees the team playing, or is a Norwegian player wanting to protect our old older members of the community from an early grave.
Let's not be tight  let's not begrudge those who have paid into the system all their lives a bit back.
Let them watch television  if they want  when they want  free of charge.
I move.
President, congress  I've gotta  up and say to you, I had, I've had to borrow the wife's glasses this morning cos I left mine in the car 
Could we have your name  
Oh, you certainly can, Richard, it's Bill , Lancashire region, er, seconding motion three seventy, television licences.
My television licence is a colour television and it costs me eighty three pound for this year.
In nineteen eighty seven, it cost fifty seven pound  this has increased by almost twenty nine per cent in the last five years.
When the government broke in, broke the link between the R P I and the old age pension, they must have known that this kind of rise would not be paid by our pensioners.
Many of the millions of unemployed will also have trouble in finding the cash for this particular commitment .
many would also object to this kind of contribution to John  's wage packet.
The television, for many old people who are afraid to go out at night, an important link with the outside world and the sources of ent entertainment.
Many of the youngsters unemployed cannot afford to go out seeking entertainment and a television is an important part to them.
This motion has been before this congress before and I am still pleased to be here to second this motion.
John Major's classless society  is a pipe dream  for without money there are no grounds for freedom of choice or opportunity.
It is  er, it is closer to a nasty video  let's make things a little more  compassionate, for those who are out of work, or are elderly.
Pensioners who have given a lifetime's service to the nation should not be asked to pay for a T V licence, and those out of work through no fault of their own, except for a government policy.
Congress I second.
Motion three seven one, pensions, Southern region to move.
Thank you, Dick.
Charlie , Southern region and a pension fund trustee.
We have heard quite a lot, colleagues, about pensions and pension schemes over the last eighteen months  perhaps we have to actually thank Mr Maxwell for raising the issue, even if those pensioners he cheated won't thank him.
There are even now other issues on the pensions debate  we have employers like Telecom using pension funds to fund redundancies  we now even have the government looking to see if they can get hold of pension fund money in British Rail and in the Coal Board to see if they can also fund job losses.
These issues have been well raised and aired over the last few months  I would like to now raise another issue that I don't think has been publicized enough  that is the issue of under-provision in old age.
This was very common in the past and I'm sure many shop stewards here who've dealt with redundancies in the past, know about the poor members who get quite a nice lump sum redundancy, but in fact, they've only been in pension schemes a short while, so they can't provide for themselves in old age, once they've spent the redundancy money.
Now that has been addressed, particularly by the G M B, and we've campaigned to have pension funds in employ with employers to be open to all, so everybody can join pension funds.
We've got a number of good pension funds that ordinary working people can join, but the issue that has come about since compulsory competitive tendering  privatization  is those members that've been in pension funds for maybe twenty, twenty five years  now they're out on the open job market  with the wonderful privatized world that we live in, with a free market, and they can't afford to make adequate pension provision for themselves.
This time bomb is ticking away, colleagues, and in about twenty years' time, we'll be back to where we were  we'll have a lot of people who've got small pensions, based on their previous employment with a health authority or a local authority, British Gas or the electricity companies  then they've had to go out on the open market and they will be under-funded and have inadequate pension when they retire.
But what they will have is a small pension that will be preventing them getting State Benefits  and they will be in the poverty trap.
Now I don't believe that this issue has been aired wide enough  it's understood by a lot of people what the problems are going to be  these problems aren't gonna occur in the next ten years, they will happen in twenty years' time.
Now I believe it's the duty of the G M B and the trade union movement to first publicize the problem  then we need a campaign and a strategy to avoid it, and that is going back to decent pension funds.
Now the State has already got a problem because in the next century, it will have insufficient people at work to pay for old age pensions  we already know Mr Portillo is doing a pension review and is looking about only targeting it to the needy at the bottom  well that means a lot of people like you and me will miss out on State pensions.
If we'd been forced like myself I believe in a couple of years' time, I will not be able to enjoy the pension fund that I'm in at the moment  we will have a problem, and we need to deal with that problem, and we need to raise the issue now and have a strategy, and I think it's the G M B's  to take a leading role in looking at this.
Thank you.
Thank you Giles 
Is three seven one seconded?
Er, it's formally seconded, brother.
Congress, president  Dennis , Southern region.
Er, as Charlie just pointed out, it is of great concern and it's a time bomb that is definitely ticking away.
Having been employed now for British Gas for the last twenty five years  er, I've got seventeen years of pensionable service, which has only just been negotiated through the G M B since nineteen eighty to nineteen ninety three  and now it is probably one of the better pensions, company pension schemes, in the country.
Now, I'm fortunate, I've actually got seventeen years  come July when the M, M M C reports back on British Gas,might split it up into seven, thirteen, fifteen different companies.
Where is my pension fund going then?
I'm gonna need a pension when I reach the age of sixty, sixty five  I recommend that we support this motion and vigorously campaign for pensions for everybody on an equal status.
I second.
Motion three seven two, pension funds, to be moved by Lancashire region.
Terence , Lancashire region, moving motion three seven two.
Congress  the motion is calling for changes in the law to protect workers' pension rights.
It is clearly unacceptable that workers' pensions are open to such abuse by the employers.
It is not satisfactory that workers' pension funds remain vulnerable to the predators.
The law must be strengthened and operate on an open basis, rather than under a cloak of secrecy.
Employers are using pension fund contribution holidays to boost profits  rather than improve benefits.
Brothers and sisters, the Maxwell scandal was only the tip of the iceberg  inadequa of the iceberg in, in exposing the inadequac inadequacies of the current pension laws  excuse me .
John  remember the importance of winning the seven demands in the pension charter  the key one was pensions equal pay, and therefore members need majority control of the trustees that run the scheme.
Let's stop the rip-off.
I move.
Mr President, delegates, Graham , Lancashire region, seconding motion three seven two.
I endorse the need for, and the urgency of, our union to spearhead the campaign  prevent the contributions of our members being used as a corporate slush fund.
The reluctance of this government to introduce legislation only strengthens my belief that the scale of the Maxwellian type fraud is far greater than any of us ever imagined.
For the prospect of a retirement pension for all those presently under fifty years of age is looking distinctly forlorn  we must protect the pension rights of all contributing members  we must insist that trustees are elected from the shop floor and not appointed by some faceless director who may not even reside in this country.
We must never again allow, now that we're all too painfully aware of the consequences  any company to cheat and swindle any working man or woman  after a lifetime's toil  from the right to a happy and dignified and financially secure retirement.
I second the motion.
Thank you very much, colleague.
Composite motion twenty seven, pensions fund law, Lancashire region to move and second.
Duncan , Lancashire region, moving composite er twenty seven.
Er  it's a bit difficult coming on the end of a debate cos everyone's nicked your speech by the time you get here.
I mean I want to start with, with pensions  pay and er, basically what's happening is that everyone's suffering pay cuts  er  and er th th what the government is doing is, first of all is attacking the State pension scheme  er, and it's allowing, er, employers to continue to rip-off occupational pension schemes  and er  since it's pay, and it's our pay, we wanna make sure we control it and I don't see why the employers should be allowed to continue to exploit  er, us both at one, both in terms of the pay we get now and the pay we get when we retire, whether it be at sixty  whether it be er, whenever we wish to er retire  and er, I think it's  very important if the government is er committed to crime prevention, that it actually starts doing something about those for, those, those employers, and Maxwell has, has been er referred to already, he's just the tip of this very big iceberg  er, and er, up and down the country, people are suffering substantial thefts of pay  er employers are systematically organizing wages snatches, that's what this er pension fraud is all about, and it's about time that our government actually got round er and tackled this very important corporate crime issue that's actually going on at the moment  and er, I think that it's very important that we ensure that we're involved in er managing our own pension sch p pension funds, and therefore we should be pushing through demands of the er th the, the charter for pension fund democracy, and ensuring er that the government actually listens to what we're saying, and actually er comes up with answers why we cannot have the right to control our pay  cos I can I can't see an any reason that they come back and say why  democracy, why they can't, why, why they won't allow us to have a greater say and control our own pension funds  and that's I think is a legitimate demand that we should be campaigning for, up and down the country.
So, er, in terms of composite twenty seven, it's a very simple resolution, and it's basically saying we should be supporting the er demands of the er campaign for pension fund democracy and the charter, and that we should abandon the  committee takes those on, those demands, and er, we should be campaigning for that very very important issue, which is affecting increasingly millions of people up and down this country, not just the p the er the Maxwell pensioners.
Now we'll see what the government does in response to er all their friends who are going bankrupt in the Lloyds  er cos er that, in that scandal, on the one hand you've got the government trying to save its neck with its forty four MPs who've had their, had their hand in the till  at the same that they're doing that, they won't actually meet the just demands of people who've worked all their lives to actually have some sort of security in the future, and that's the ol er sort of double standards they're gonna try and er and use to get off the hook on that one  because they owe people in this country a decent, we should have the right to a decent pension and security, employment  and er with this, this campaign, we should be, we should be concentrating on as a major issue for this union in the forthcoming year.
Thank you, I move.
Kish , Lancashire region, seconding composite twenty seven.
President, congress  we know that the Tory government, Tories' er agenda is to abolish State pension, thus more and more people will rel have to rely on private, and company pension.
We need to have strict laws protecting our members'  pension funds.
The media has highlighted Maxwell's abuse of pension funds to prop up his crumbling businesses  there's potentially hundreds of employers like Maxwell.
Within our Oldham branch there have been two recent cases of such abuse  one being Hartleys where an employer took sixty thousand pounds out of the pension fund and put it into Hartleys, which at the time was in financial difficulties.
Subsequently the company went into liquidation and left our pension holders with less than meagre pensions.
So it's imperative that we can achieve to get trustees onto pension fund bo pension fund bodies  to stop  er employers misusing the pension fund  and finally we commend the G M B's submission to the good re good committee and hope that the G M B's submission becomes law in the not distant future.
I  
I second 
Well as I indicated earlier, colleagues, I now call the general secretary to respond to the debate.
John , general secretary, replying on behalf of the C E C. Well we used to think whatever else was gonna change, at least the pensions were secure  but as this bate debate shows  not any more.
Duncan said it, I think  there is now a two-pronged attack on our pensions.
Unscrupulous employers  mean-minded government.
Every week brings a new pension scandal.
Kish has just given you one example  I'll give you one of the others.
Haywards Food.
The pension scheme has a massive surplus  so what does the management do?
They take five million pounds out of the scheme as a refund  they give themselves a five year contribution holiday  and not one penny of that improvement goes to the members.
So the Inland Revenue gets a bonus  the company gets a claw-back  and the members get nothing at all.
And the G M B demands that when the good committee report  it makes such behaviour illegal.
As motion twenty seven has said so clearly  it's the members' money.
We support motion three seven two, on the basis that the majority of trustees should be representatives of the pension fund members  and any surplus should be spent not by the employer at the employer's own behest, but by agreement.
After all  we don't allow employers to take money out of our bank accounts  and they have no right to take money out of our pension funds!
Security of pensions is fundamental to a civilized society.
We don't believe that pension rights should be undermined by privatization or by C C T. We agree with motion three seven one but add one qualification  the best way to provide protection for members threatened in this way is to force the government to honour its obligations under European law  and push for pensions to be included in the  regulations.
And then there's the second prong of the attack  the government offensive.
Make no mistake about it  by all the processes of the government propaganda machine  by kite-flying and carefully placed links, the government is trying to soften us up to the idea of increasing the State pension age for women to sixty five.
They prattle on about equality, when really what they mean is a down-grading of women's rights.
We've had a lot about politics this morning, and if the Labour Party wants to mobilize working women  many of them who didn't vote Labour at the last election  here is a ready made campaign to take into the next election.
Mary, Ed, John  they all said it.
Composite twenty six is right.
We should reject this government claptrap and campaign for a pension age of sixty for everyone  men and women, with proper protected rights for women.
Lastly a word about our members in the coal industry which Charlie mentioned.
They have the worst of both worlds  a government who wants to attack their pension rights and an employer willing to do the government's bidding.
Very strange story this.
Heseltine had to find a subsidy to stop the coal revolt by Tory backbenchers  a short-term subsidy to the coal industry.
That subsidy cost, remember this figure, five hundred million.
The government then told the Coal Board to hold back nearly five hundred million that it was due to pay into the Coal Industry pension scheme.
So it looks as if our coal members are being forced to fund the government subsidy  there can't be much nastier behaviour than to pay your own money to get the government off the hook of making your own members and your colleagues redundant.
Of course, the government denies it all.
In a letter to me, government minister Tim  says  better quote this exactly because er, government ministers always tell the whole and complete truth, we know that,experience  the issue of the pension fund money, he says, is quite separate from the subsidy that the Coal Industry which will be financed by the Exchequer.
Of course it is .
it just happens to be the same amount at exactly the same time  but how nice of him to explain and how silly of us to be taken in by this string of coincidences.
But just to be on the safe side, we're taking the Coal Board to court.
We don't yet know whether the Coal Board's action is illegal  but sure as hell it ought to be.
So the advice from the C E E, C, C E C is  support composites twenty six and twenty seven  support motions three six nine and three seventy  support three seven one and three seven two with the qualifications given  support the campaign for pension fund democracy and let's work hard to clean up the pension scandal in Britain.
Thank you very much.
As the general secretary indicated, colleagues, all the motions are being accepted, so I now put them to the vote.
All those in favour of composite motion twenty six  against  that's carried.
Motion three six nine, all those in favour  against  that's carried.
Motion three seventy, all those in favour  against  that's carried.
Motion three seven one, all those in favour  against  that's carried.
Motion three seven two, all those in favour  against  that's carried.
Composite motion twenty seven, all those in favour  against  and that's carried.
Thanks very much indeed colleagues.
We now turn to the benefit systems and in this particular group, colleagues, we're gonna call the following motions  motion three eighty, motion three eight one, motion three eight two, motion three eight three and motion three eight four.
It will be the same procedure  and then I'll ask for John  er to  a statement on behalf of the central executive council.
I now call motion three eighty, privatization of S S P and S M P, Lancashire region to move.
Willy , Lancashire region.
President, congress  I ask this congress to do all in their power to campaign on behalf of all sick members and pregnant women regarding the breakdown in the control over sickness and maternity benefits  employers are depriving their employees of millions of pounds  since the privas privatization of the benefits.
Accounts are no longer controlled so the system has broken down, so says the auditor general  Sir John .
Sir John, who investigated whether payments were correct, found errors in one in three cases and two areas .
There were also large underpayments  th these amounted to hundr four hundred and fifteen thousand pound in sickness benefits.
The privatization which handed over administration of benefit payments to employers was the brainchild of Sir Norman   do I need to say more?
In nineteen ninety one, Sir John stated that the average overpay for maternity benefit was two hundred and forty pound per person.
I ask you  do you know anyone that has been overpaid?
More like underpaid.
So I ask this congress to watch closely this benefits agency, and let's make sure that the sick and maternity grants get paid correctly to what they are entitled to.
I move.
Thanks very much.
Will the seconder  seconder for three eighty 
formally seconded, thanks very much.
Motion three eight one, unemployment benefit, Lancashire region to move  Is it formally moved?
Formally moved.
Formally seconded?
Formally seconded.
Thanks very much.
Motion three eight two, benefits, Northern region to move.
President, congress  Alan , Northern region, moving motion three eight two, benefits.
Congress  fourteen years of Tory rule have taught our people many bitter lessons.
They have witnessed jobs destroyed  services slashed  opportunities wasted.
In no area, colleagues, is the despair caused by Tory mismanagement more abundantly clear than in the area of welfare benefits.
As our economy has declined  as our recession has turned to a slump  increasingly it is the low-paid, the sick, the disabled and the unemployed who have been forced to pick up the tab for the Tory policy failure.
Congress, as we all know, the latest Tory plans have once again hit the least well off.
To cut entitlement to unemployment benefit  to tax invalidity benefit  and to mean test benefits  congress such a tax  most vulnerable in our society must be opposed by the trade union movement.
Motion three eight two calls upon the C E C to adopt a clear policy  to resist the attacks on the poor  and to launch a campaign to, to defend our people.
I urge congress to support motion three eight two  and to demonstrate clearly our belief the least well off in our society should not be forced to pay the price of Tory failure  re to regenerate the nation's industry.
Congress, I move.
President, congress, Gerry , Northern region  seconding motion three eight two.
Congress  as we all know, the failed economic policies of the government has pushed our nation to the very edge of bankruptcy.
Our nation's annual deficit budget now stands at fifty million pounds.
Against such a background, colleagues, our nation has only one choice  get rid of Major's mafia first!
We need to invest  we need to encourage research and development  we need to provide quality training.
In short, congress  we need to build out of recession  because only by building and by investment can we reduce unemployment and cut the nation's budget deficit.
Faced with such a stark choice, however  the Tories, as we all know, have found another way  they plan, colleagues, to cut benefits  to reduce entitlement to unemployment benefits and to d tax invalidity.
That congress is an insult  it's like making a victim of crime pay compensation to the muggers.
Colleagues  the G M B should resist the tax on the poor  on the victims of Tory policy.
I urge you, support motion three eight two.
Mr President, I second.
Motion three eight three, reduced T V licences  er Lancashire region to move.
Bernie , Lancashire region, moving motion three eight three.
President, congress  well, third time lucky, eh?
All my motions on the first day.
Wherever you go nowadays, be it swimming, the pictures, fitness  centres, or pop concerts  they all appreciate that the unemployed cannot afford to pay the full charge.
They have all introduced a discount scheme to enable those unfortunate enough not to have a job  not to have a proper job  the same access to all these facilities as those in work.
For the vast majority of these people, unemployment is a direct consequence of a government who only cares about those who have, and could not care less about those who have not.
When you are unemployed, there is not much left after the job centre  and the twenty third job application form to occupy your time.
Television is at least one escape and just like all the other trivial pastimes, should allow the unemployed to participate at a reduced rate.
I move.
Mr President  congress  Bill , Lancashire region.
this is gonna be done from the heart, there's no, nothing being put there in front, because when you see what I've got and what my branch has achieved working with unemployed people  your branch earner  and that lady up there,, twenty seven years in this union  we started this football team, it was this dream that I had  and I come from Salford, which is not far from  which is devastated with drugs  burnt out cars  people robbing each other, and of course ,.
Just across the river  we've got Manchester City.
This gentleman behind me, and myself  I beg you pardon, did I say Manchester City?
I thought meant Manchester United.
This lad  behind me, Dick, and myself, we're both City fans.
Don't tell everybody for God's sake 
They're proud of it, never mind what you said before,Unite Uni City wouldn't do what?
Give over!
I've got a piece of artwork on the floor that I never thought I'd see.
It's called the Tripyer Shield and it's a local amateur thing  Eccles and District  and to win it it's like winning the F A Cup  and this G M B team that we started  we lost about three or four matches and we started losing the players, so when you don't lock the doors and you'd end up with about seven players and you'd think is it worth bothering?
Course it's worth bothering because a lot of young men that was unemployed come down to the school where I'm the caretaker  and they said, we know that you're running short  is there any chance of getting in on the scene?
So they got in on the scene and I seen young men that was walking the streets  that had nowt to do  put a football kit on with G M B written across the front  turn out and become super human beings, you never seen nowt like it, they were so pleased to associate with like something like that.
I just want to end up by saying I know it's all about reduction for unemployed and the telephone  this union has worked very hard with the community in Salford  throughout the country  if you just give me a moment, Mr President, I'll get this unclear 
Is this, is this what's known as poetic licence, Bill?
Did you say telephone or television then?
television.
Oh, television, right  If that's real silver then I'll have that,
It is real silver.
Colleagues, this is the G M B at work in the Lancashire region  working with the unemployed.
Thanks.
Thanks very much indeed, Bill.
Motion three eight four, telephone assistance for the elderly  G M B Scotland to move.
And if there is a seconder, if he or she could come down please.
Morning team, congress  Jackie , Scotland.
It is to the shame of this Tory government that er er our senior citizens have to  struggle to feed and clothe themselves  and to try to keep warm, and as inadequate pensions that they receive from this government  if you compare the way in the other European countries  what they get and what the British government gives to our old age pensioners, our senior citizens  they're more  they're worse off than actually second class citizens.
But over and above this is a terrible fact that despite what they are already putting up with, they've got more  they've got the seventeen percent coming on  their .
If they're a pound over, they've still got to pay the  money.
Why are they doing this?
If they heard a knock at the door  or if they heard shouting and bawling in the street, but there's nothing they can do  what we're asking for here is  and I'm asking for support  is a phone to the people who cannot afford one  whereas if they hear something they can phone the police, or they can phone the support unit  because  are two people staying together in this day and age where they cannot  walk in the streets  they're attacked even in broad daylight going to get their pensions  never mind at night-time.
What I'm asking for is  that we keep this approach up to fight this government to give er our senior citizens a better chance in this life, cos a lot of us here would not be here today if it wasn't for the senior citizens who brought us up.
What we're asking for is  is a phone to the people who can't afford it  to the police stations.
It would only cost the  the B T very small  and a telephone unit.
Now  up in Glasgow, we've got a Strathclyde Labour authority who's actually putting schemes like this in.
If it's alarm systems  if the alarm goes off they phone the person in the house.
If the woman answers    citizen in Britain  not just in certain areas, and I move for support.
Is there a seconder for three eight four?
Formally seconded?
Thank you very much.
I now call John  to put the 
Yep.
President, conference  Mal , Lancashire region.
Er  I come up to draw the President's attention  erm to a problem we have within the delegation and that is that when er Dick called the mover of resolution three eight one in the name of the Lancashire region  John  who was going to move the resolution was in fact sat in his seat within the delegation.
Unfortunately, John does suffer from a hearing defect which er causes him loss of hearing  and apparently when he puts his hearing aid in  the speakers are causing some interference and a whistle within his ear.
He's got the hearing aid out and unfortunately he didn't hear the President call motion three eight one, and in view of that I jumped in and formally moved it to erm save the motion falling  and I would ask you with your indulgence, if John could come along and move motion three eight one.
Thank you.
Well  I mean  the motion actually has been moved, I do take the point, I mean it's a fair point, but  erm  not sure where John's sat  sat at the back, yes 
where you going, John?
Did  yeah .
Did somebody tell him I was speaking?
Okay, well look  we are we are a little ahead of time and it, we're certainly gonna complete the business but, so on this particular occasion
providing he doesn't wreck the bloody rostrum of course.
Right John.
Mr President, congress  Is the loop system working or not?
I knew he was gonna ask me that!
I knew he was gonna say that!
Well 
Three eight one you're on, John.
Mr John  told me last year he paid a lot of money for all this  and it's still not bloody working!
But I'll get on to my resolution  which is unemployment benefit  and I'll say this  it's a bloody disgrace  and I mean it.
And for unions to stand by and  it's bloody unbelievable.
You work forty years of your life  you're made redundant  all that time you paid insurance, tax  and after twelve months they've got the gall to take money you paid all your life off your unemployment and throw you on income.
That's all I'm saying.
Thanks John.
The motion was formally seconded, colleagues, so I now call John  to put the C E C position  John.
I was hoping, Dick, I'd get one with no light on!
John  replying to these resolutions on behalf of the C E C. Before I kick off  I  to reply to them I put at the top of my scribbled notes three words  poverty  hardship and loneliness  and I think those three words typify and sum up what the majority of these resolutions are all about in this retarded society that we've lived in  er under  in the last fourteen years.
If I can pick up with motion three eight zero  which refers to the privatation of sat statutory sick pay and statutory maternity pay  the C E C would like reference back on this for the very basis that  the point is they do still remain State benefits  and those who qualify them, for them, are legally entitled to do so.
We ask for reference back so that a closer look can be taken at these problems in the administration of the benefits.
When I move on to three eight one, three eight two  there's a lot of things been said about these benefits this morning which doesn't leave much left for me  but looking at the situation of the way this Tory government  has in the last thirteen years, certainly since nineteen eighty two  crucified the benefits paid genuinely to people  is in itself a crime upon society  and it reminds me of the  the words of the song  it's the rich that get the gravy  and it's the poor that get the blame  and nothing, but nothing has changed since those words were written many many years ago.
Since nineteen eighty two  when they took away the related earnings from the unemployment benefit  they have introduced a further nine retrograde steps to the plight of the unemployed  and now the proposals  as has already been pointed out  they now have a look, because there's a fifty billion pound shortfall  at how they can best tackle the sick and make them pay, as well as people who are struggling to keep a roof over their head.
We ask you to accept these two resolutions.
On the reduced T V licence fees  well I think we all recognize that everybody who's unemployed isn't living in the lap of luxury  drinking ten double whiskies a day  hitting the racecourses with a top hat and tail on  the only pleasure, especially people who've got young children to bring up  is the television  and such is the price of the licence nowadays that in order to sustain that  other things in the family are going short.
This again is an indictment on our society when people are being forced into that position  again the C E C asks you to accept this.
On the standing charges regarding  motion three eight four  for the rent-free telephones for our senior citizens  it is really an extension of three seventy  but the C E C asks  to  while you, while you accept this resolution  ask for a qualification on the motion.
We say it is unclear why free phones should only be issued for incoming and outgoing calls and for nine nine nine calls.
What we are saying  there are other emergencies and I get down to the word loneliness now  is there any reason why senior citizens shouldn't have the facility whereby they can make telephone calls if those, they so desire, to members of the family who in many instances they haven't seen for long periods of time?
There are many many people  who live in houses on their own  can't get out  and again  it's an indictment on our society when you hear and read about the telephone profits that er that B T are making.
I don't consider it is wrong in this day and age  that it is wrong to try to uplift and give to our retired people, every decent condition that is going in order to enable them to live their, the way they are entitled to do.
On that basis, chair  and having got this off my chest  I'm gonna get me bucket and spade, and I'm gonna go to the beach this afternoon.
Thank you.
John, we've got business this afternoon.
Right, colleagues, er, motion three eighty, the C E C as John has indicated are seeking reference.
Does the mover accept reference?
Congress agree?
Thanks very much.
Motion three, three eight one  C E C are recommending your acceptance, all those in favour  against  that's carried.
Motion three eight two  C E C are recommending you to accept it, all those in favour  against  that's carried.
And motion three eight four  C E C are recommending you to accept it, all those in favour  against  and that's carried.
Colleagues, that in fact concludes the morning's business, we're about twelve minutes ahead of time.
Just before we break  can I remind all women delegates, officers and guests  there will be the reception to be held at twelve thirty to two o' clock in the Lord Mayor's banqueting hall, in the Guildhall.
The bad news is it's a cash bar  attendance by ticket only, please do your best to be there.
Now colleagues, refreshments and the exhibition halls are stationed in the north and south reception areas  on the first floor of the Guildhall.
Can I please urge you to visit the exhibition hall during the course of congress.
Congress stands adjourned till two P M this afternoon.
Thank you very much.

At police stations across England and Wales more than two hundred thousand people will be given cautions this year.
To get a caution they'll have to admit their part in the crime but they won't have to go court.
A caution doesn't mean a criminal record but it does mean the police can solve crime with the minimum of fuss.
Research also suggests it discourages some people from re-offending.
He's gone into Boots, he's admitted  to doing the offence erm picking up some perfume from the counter in Boots, put it in the basket then placed it into his bag 
and walked out.
What's his previous his 
He's 
previous record?
He's got He's got one previous erm which actually date back to nineteen seventy seven erm for handling stolen goods.
Come this way please.
The best thing for this chap would be to caution him for this offence.
How'd 
How'd do you think he'd react to that?
Well he's been very remorse throughout the interview anyway he's you know he said sorry throughout and he regrets doing it now he's he couldn't understand why he did it.
Cautioning was originally intended for first time young offenders and those, like this man, guilty of a minor crime.
What intended to do with yourself is were going to caution you.
Now what that means is that you've admitted the offence which you were arrested for which is er  
But more adults are now being cautioned and for more serious crime.
It was the government's own guidelines three years ago which encouraged cautioning.
They said cautions were acceptable for all age groups for a wide range of unspecified offences.
There was no reason to limit cautions to one, prosecution should be the last resort.
I want you to sign here and er the bit at the bottom does say that you admit the offence which you were er b er arrested for and then your release for custody will we'll give your your er property back and you will be released.
Right.
If you sign just there please.
The cautioning guidelines were intended to ensure consistency among police forces, but in fact they gave chief constables wide discretion.
As a result in some parts of the country you're three times more likely to be cautioned than in others .
that's sealed in there, there you go sir.
In some police stations we've identified criminals actually stand more chance of being cautioned than prosecuted.
Follow this officer she'll show you out.
Okay.
For this man the ordeal of several hours in a police cell is over there 'll be no court case, no difficult explanations for his employer.
All he has to cope with is his own shame.
It's something for my wife which I can't afford cos I've been off sick so I thought it would be something nice for her.
Can I ask you what your reaction was when you knew you were going to be cautioned and not prosecuted?
Total relief.
What would have been the consequences for you had you been prosecuted?
Possibly the loss of my job.
It's a salutary lesson for you is it?
Oh certainly yeah, yeah.
I'm grateful for being let off.
Cautioning has advantages and not only for the offender.
It saves the government more than a hundred million pounds by cutting the number of expensive court hearings, and it's a quick and easy way for the police to clear up crime.
The most dramatic rise in cautioning in England and Wales has been for adult offenders.
In Cheshire, according to figures obtained by Public Eye, adult cautions have nearly trebled in the last four years.
In Hampshire the figures have nearly doubled.
In Merseyside too the number of adult cautions has almost doubled.
Overall, cautioning for all offenders, which was falling before the nineteen ninety guidelines were introduced, is now steadily increasing.
Last year there were two hundred and sixteen thousand cautions given for indictable offences, those serious enough to be tried in a crown court.
But under the present Home Secretary, Michael Howard, the climate is changing.
I think repeated cautioning and cautioning for serious offences are completely unacceptable and I know you do to.
If the Home Secretary is worried about cautioning he need look no further than Folkestone, his own constituency, and the rest of Kent.
The latest Home Office figures show that Kent has the highest cautioning rate in the country.
Magistrates, victims of crime, the police and even offenders agree cautioning has got out of hand.
A more serious concern is the extent to which it is undermining faith in the criminal justice system.
Across Kent crime rose by fifteen percent in nineteen ninety two that's more than twice the national average.
Unpublished figures obtained by Public Eye show that fifty seven percent of offenders were cautioned rather than prosecuted.
You stand nearly three times as much chance of getting a police caution in Kent as you do in South Wales.
I'm concerned that er people are not being brought to justice.
And er that er very often the criminal fraternity are looking at it as a ways and means of getting out of coming to court.
These young men are known to police in the county.
Some have criminal convictions, all say they have been cautioned or warned by the police several times.
One of them three months ago for a violent attack.
Causing grievous bodily harm to someone now you might say that's a very serious offence which you should expect to be prosecuted.
it is but
then again all I turned round and said the bloke that I hit, he said he didn't want to press charges, but then I thought the police can bring out their own prosecution against me but they turned round and said no he doesn't want to press charges so we'll just caution you again.
You must have been very surprised that you weren't pro 
I was then , cos like I done his jaw in, I done his nose in and I thought this is it.
I thought I'm going down this time.
And they just said were caution you and I walked out of there and I started laughing.
What sort of things do they say to you?
Er they take you into the office, tell you to sit down, and they look at you as if you're a little schoolboy.
Mm.
And they say right Mr  we caution you for er what ever you done next time you do it we'll take you for court for it .
You just walk out the police station I run up the road I was laughing my head off.
Do you think it's an encouragement also to erm go out and commit more crimes if you're cautioned?
Yeah you do, you tend to go out and commit more crime because of You've been let out you've been let off really 
That's the buzz of it, innit really ?
And you go out and do the same thing again and you're getting le let off for the same thing all the time and you think you're going to get away with it all the time.
Yeah.
I wouldn't say it encourages you but it sort of you know you're going to get away with it.
You get one caution an and er I thought the limit was two you get t two cautions and you get took to the court.
So I knew that I could go out again and get another caution, that's why I did it, really.
Then if I get caught I just get a caution and that's it.
What does cautioning mean to you?
Nothing.
You go down there they slap you on the wrist you walk away from it and go and do it again.
What about if you'd received a harsher sentence?
You'd think twice about doing it wouldn't you?
If they like sentence me straight away for doing something like I'd think to myself is it worth it?
Kent went to the top of the cautioning league under Paul , now commissioner of the Metropolitan police.
When the new Chief Constable took over in March he ordered an immediate review.
The result is likely to be far fewer cautions.
I myself take the view that the criminal justice process generally is the appropriate way to deal with criminal offending and I'm not too happy with the idea that people who commit criminal offences should be dealt with outside the courts.
Isn't it the case though that people in Kent, offenders in Kent, have become used to the idea that cautioning will be the norm?
That they won't be prosecuted, at least for some minor offences?
I think this is not just a problem in Kent, I think that there has been a erm an undue er move in this direction nationally, er for what ever reasons public policy was very much about keeping people out of the courts, er I suspect that this is er er a policy which is of doubtful philosophical underpinning.
In Margate crime rose by twenty percent last year we found that for the victims of crime here the use of cautioning has undermined confidence in the justice system.
They can get compensation only if the case goes to court.
This centre for the elderly has been broken into four times in two years.
All on his own little willy number one.
Ooh.
You poor old  
Many of the volunteers are pensioners themselves.
The last time it suffered a break in, the intruder badly damaged a door.
He was caught in the act but got off with a caution.
You lot of woofers.
We had been told at the time he had been in trouble before.
We got a letter from the Kent constabulary to say that erm he'd been let off.
And I felt absolutely horrified, devastated to think that he could have done that sort of damage and just walked away he didn't even have to pay for the damage he'd done.
I was I was so angry and and I see him a out and about and when I first saw him about I could have I could have run him down.
Figures we've obtained for the first three months of this year show astonishing variations in cautioning rates across Kent.
In Margate for example there were far more prosecutions then cautions, the same is true in other places such as Medway and Tunbridge Wells.
But in other areas, like Canterbury, offenders are more likely to be cautioned than prosecuted.
The same applies to Ashford, where according to our figures the same has happened for the last three years.
So how can it be that there are such enormous variations between different parts of Kent?
Privately police officers have told us, decisions on cautioning can depend on how much or how little faith they have in the courts to pass adequate sentences, and on how much paper work is required for a prosecution.
I would be deeply suspicious if the level of consistency were such that the figure were absolutely the same in every area because that would suggest to me that no discretion was going into the process.
If if if you were talking about er high levels of variance then clearly erm they need to be addressed.
It is exactly because of that level of variance and because we considered er that multiple cautioning on some occasions, I think on the figures I have examined about six percent of occasions, er were unjustifiable that we have reviewed our policy.
Are you aware of other people in the area  
John  would welcome anything that might put more criminals back in court .
Well not as many, er there is the odd break in here and there but no one has had the sort of amount that I have erm  
He's a former chairman of the magistrates association and has spent thirty one years on the bench.
He's witnessed a substantial fall in the number of offenders appearing in his Ashford court.
They know we're out and they're targeting their premises.
Do you reckon it's the same man ?
This experience is reflected across the county where the number of criminal cases has fallen by ten percent in the last three years.
He attributes part of that to the rise in cautioning.
John  joined other senior magistrates who told us they're concerned about cautioning.
Magistrates who are unused in public at least are criticizing the police, they say their policy has gone too far.
They are making decisions behind closed doors, they are making decisions erm arbitrary decisions, without the benefit of accountability to the public and that to me is the most serious er long term aspect of the increase in cautioning.
You're concerned at at there being private justice not public justice?
Indeed, well I d I I don't call it justice.
It's private decision making.
I honestly believe that this is a a a financial exercise that the government have imposed on the criminal justice system.
Now I'm not opposed to cautioning, of course not, the odd one or two occasion I think it's highly effective.
But it is being used I believe as a scapegoat to get the government off the hook for financial reasons.
What evidence do you have from your own court about multiple cautions?
Only last week, the last time I sat in court er there was an instance of one individual who had had twelve cautions in a period of eight months er he was still a youth so his name obviously can not be divulged, erm and it's not only the cautions, I wonder how many warnings he'd received as well.
We as magistrates do try and be consistent in our sentencing er throughout the country, I think it's beholden on the police to be consistent in their approach to offenders, as well, and it seems quite wrong that someone in Folkestone gets away with doing something with a guy in Wigan er goes before the court.
There is a a colossal amount of inconsistency er of a kind that if we were to practice such inconsistency in our courts there would be there would be absolute outcry and it's it's something of a scandal I think that er that the police and the executive generally are apparently able to get away with inconsistencies which we are not.
The story of Dave  is a remarkable tale of coincidence and injustice.
He was coaching his local swimming team when police told him his car was being broken into.
The damage amounted to two hundred and fifty pounds.
those legs, go go go.
It was the sixth time in a year he'd been a victim of crime, but this time the culprits, two youths, had been arrested.
After a little while they got back to me and says right one's finally broken down, the seventeen year old, it took them an hour and an half, we've broke him down he's admitted he's done it.
I said right, what's the situation now?
They said we've got a good chance now of prosecuting 'em.
Would you be willing to prosecute?
I said bloody sure I'd be willing to prosecute.
I'd said after all I've had done to me I said you've caught 'em, I'll prosecute.
Twice a week for four months Dave  would contact the police waiting for news of the court case.
In the summer he was stopped by the police for overloading his builder's van.
When he returned from a holiday in August he had some unwelcome news.
Right, I have two letters on the side I open the first one.
The first one relates to the child who broke into my car, I won't call him a child he's a bloody toerag as far as I'm concerned, who broke into my car has been given a caution, a bloody caution.
Caught him with a screwdriver in his hand he's admitted he's done it and he's got let off.
Ta da, don't be a naughty boy again.
I open the second letter, would you please appear in court cos you were overloaded, you are being prosecuted.
Well I thought if that ain't British justice I don't know what is.
To get two letters 
in one day I is I thought it was a classic.
Thank you very much, you've copped it both ends Mr 
The final irony, it was the same Chief Inspector who had signed both the letters he received.
One of the victims we have spoken to in Kent received two letters on the same day.
One informed him that the seventeen year old offender who had caused two hundred and fifty pounds worth of damage to his car had been formerly cautioned.
The other letter informed the victim that he was going to be prosecuted for overloading his builder's van, he was in fact prosecuted and fined.
His comment to us was British justice, that's not British justice.
What do you think of that sort of situation?
Erm, I would share his view.
You think it was wrong that he should have been prosecuted and the person who damaged his car should not?
Well I don't know th th the er the detail of the circumstances nor the matters that went into the judgement, but in the way you have explained it to me and if all those facts are as are as simple and plausible as you as you say, then yes I would agree with him.
And you wouldn't want that sort of thing to happen in future?
I would not.
Elsewhere in the country similar views are being expressed among victims of crime where the offender was cautioned.
More than two thirds of people surveyed in Gloucestershire said they were dissatisfied that the offender involved had been cautioned.
Most of those said they wanted them taken to court.
Three quarters said they hadn't been consulted before a caution was given, and sixty two percent of our sample thought offenders should only be entitled to one caution no matter whether the crime was committed by an adult or juvenile.
The picture is different in Northamptonshire where a pioneering approach to cautioning appears to have the backing of victims and those involved in the criminal justice process.
But there are fears that the government's vigorous attempts to clamp down on cautioning could mean the end to a well supported and apparently successful scheme.
Here there are few of the excesses of cautioning seen in some other areas, even though prosecution is considered very much the last resort.
There are certainly criteria being fulfilled which allows me to deal  by means of a formal caution.
Just over a third of those guilty of indictable offences are cautioned, that's around the national average and well below that in Kent.
Can you sign there to indicate that you accept the formal caution then 
Custody officers are specially trained to handle cautions, they follow a detailed grading system which helps determine whether a caution is suitable.
Points are awarded or deducted according to the impact of the crime on the victim, for example, and whether the offender is genuinely remorseful.
The person's kept himself out of trouble so is it really right for us to get him back before the courts again?
It well may be that erm you know with the help that er he can be referred to, they help him keep out of trouble again, for a lot longer.
Okay, thanks very much so they're the new cases.
Has anybody got anything  
The key to the approach though lies not just with the police but with the Northants diversion unit.
Social workers, a history teacher and probation officers get together with the police to consider how best to deal with offenders.
He says he thought the passenger was then going to hit him so then he hit him first and er I think  
The unit tries to keep the offenders out of court, an aim that sits uneasily with the government's new philosophy that prison and punishment work.
But the unit also negotiates with offenders to try to encourage them to compensate their victims.
One of the units success stories is Richard .
By accepting a caution he was spared a criminal record.
birthday and I'd been out, had a few drinks and that.
A few too many.
And I was walking past and for some silly reason I felt like putting my fist through a couple of windows.
Instead of going to court he paid six hundred and fifty pounds for the damage and apologized to the shop's owner.
It was quite a shock.
Yeah.
And then we found out that they'd actually caught you.
Yeah.
And you were jumping around for joy and saying
Well not really, No no .
Hang him hang him hang him.
Well also I could think of  
Both victim and offender are satisfied with the way things turned out.
However one problem with this reparation scheme, as it's known, is that the offender can't be forced to pay up.
All of our reparation work is based on the fact that we want people to volunteer to do this work.
We want them to volunteer to to pay compensation to the offen Er to the victim, because that way we know that they genuinely have concern over what they've done and they've faced up their responsibilities.
They don't have to pay the the compensation, or make restitution in any way.
It is entirely voluntary.
In some cases though there's no victim to pay compensation to, and there are always those offenders who clearly know how to exploit the system.
It's four o'clock on a Sunday afternoon.
A twenty year old man has been called in for a chat with an inspector.
Do you understand why you're here?
Yeah.
Okay, you tell me why you're here.
For caution erm for carrying an offensive weapon.
What I'd say to you is, don't mess up and throw away the opportunity you've been given, because if you do you'll only have yourself to blame.
Whatever goes on inside, outside this man says the caution isn't a deterrent.
It's not.
It's just summat not to go to court innit?
It's not  got to court for sort of like, four or five weeks  get adjourned or come up to the police station and then like get your hand slapped.
Just listen to a copper sit there and talk rubbish for a few minutes.
reckon if you're seen carrying a knife again, then there's only one clear alternative for you and you've got to know what that is.
Do you know what the alternative would be?
Custodial sentence.
You're now saying that potentially you would 
do it again?
Yeah, but if you tell them you won't, you just get a caution innit?
No fine, nothing, you just get let off with it.
And you're out again on the streets.
So it's a bit of joke really isn't it?
Yeah it is.
System You know the system just suck.
Sorry I sound like a right right one but it does.
The system's pathetic.
While such attitudes disappoint the police, officers don't find them wholly surprising.
There are obviously individuals like that.
Similarly there are individuals that go through the court system and are punished, that are perhaps sent to prison, and come out of prison saying it's not going to make any difference, I now know how to break into every type of car, every type of building.
And they're a much more efficient criminal if you like.
Isn't it demoralizing for police officers to see offenders not being prosecuted?
It's very difficult for police officers who are vi visiting victims of crime every day, to see an offender apparently getting away with it.
But we must look at the long term view.
Our primary objective is to prevent, or reduce, re-offending.
Now we know that our diversion system allows us to do that.
Nationally the A Ts have see a dramatic reduction  
At one of their regular training days Northamptonshire magistrates are hearing about the virtues of the diversion scheme.
custody.
This is the the bear results  In nineteen eighty three  
These are the converted.
Here there is, unusually, judicial support for cautioning.
One reason is the ninety two percent approval rating it gets from victims of crime, according to a local police survey.
There are plans to expand the scheme in the county to take in more adults.
Magistrates say they're worried the government's attitude to cautioning may mean an end to this local initiative.
Well I think it would be disastrous.
And I think governments would do well to talk to the people at the sharp end, like magistrates, who use this system, work the system, liaise with all the various components in the system and do know what they're talking about.
They're appointed because they're intelligent beings and I think they should be treated as such and consulted.
The new guidelines will tell the police to give no more than two cautions, except in rare circumstances, and to caution only for minor offences.
This is merely the latest example of the home office overturning policies earlier pursued with such vigour.
There've been five home secretaries in four years and civil servants are unclear which direction ministers will take next.
One of them told me the changes they've put now are so dramatic, there might as well have been a change of government.
But Michael Howard is unbowed.
In the last thirty years the balance in our criminal justice system has been tilted too far in favour of the criminal and against the protection of the public.
The time has come to put that right.
One of the officials in charge of shaping the more liberal policies favoured by the home office in the eighties was David .
Now an academic, he's alarmed at what he sees as a policy reversal on cautioning.
He says it'll fail.
For large numbers come into the criminal justice system unnecessarily, erm that is likely to set back the progress which was made during the nineteen eighties and er increase and reinforce criminality.
How much of a danger do you think there is that we'll get yet another sea change at the home office and policies on cautioning and criminal justice generally, will be reversed again?
I'm concerned about a policy which is based on er conviction and punishment.
I mean the policy that er I helped er Douglas Hurd to develop in the nineteen eighties was based on prevention, consultation and cooperation, and moderate use of imprisonment.
A lot of that has been set aside in substance and certainly in the attitudes and language which come from the government.
The court has considered the application for bail that has been made by your solicitor,
Toughening up on crime will cost millions.
the new cautioning rules will put tens of thousands more in court.
those with first hand experience of crime will be watching closely.
You've got to bring back some deterrent to this bloody country, otherwise the next thing you'll be getting is vigilante groups, and if you get vigilante groups then this country is in a hell of a bloody state and you will have bleeding trouble.
This offence for which you have been found guilty  
The name of the game is how can we reduce the amount of offending in this country.
If cautioning could do that we'd all be right behind it.
the fact is that it's not.
It's not a punishment, but even the punishments are not deterring criminals either.
Accordingly we propose to adjourn the matter today  
The home secretary may care to ponder this thought.
Cautioning may have fallen into disrepute but to abandon it will mean a return to the punitive policies that this government had only recently said had failed.
Accordingly you'll be remanded in custody for a period of seven days.

Er erm about the  it doesn't matter about my voice you see there.
Erm about working in the office of the  Brothers in Porthmadog.
Well  Brothers were very early early organized er slate merchants in Porthmadog.
Started by my uncle by marriage, Jonathan  of , and his brother Richard  of .
And as I understand it they came down from somewhere er near  they obviously were involved in the slate business and then they or organized their own firm  Brothers and I believe it was about seventeen er eighty nine, maybe earlier.
And their of first office as I recall as a little boy, was on the q quay as we used to say in Porthmadog .
Yeah.
Now whether it was n near grave's quay or wherever it was, they had a a quay there and of course they had a quay in .
Yes.
Er where the  used to bring the slates down from 
Yes.
Festinniog and those who went by by train would be transferred to the quay in .
Yeah.
Those going by sea of course came right down to the quay in in Porthmadog .
Yeah.
Would the offices be on the side of  where
Yes.
Yes.
Hill, Hill that would be  
I think it'd be in that direction.
Yes.
Fine.
If if we were walking down there now I think I could probably give you the er exact place where it was because I've got a young memory of going in there, we used to er walk around the the  you see.
Er er shall I go on now?
Yes, yeah.
Well I suppose I should introduce myself.
Er since I'm experting on my very early youth.
My name is Aled Pierce  and I was born in the  on November the eighth nineteen ten.
And er my mother Janet Hughes  was a s sister to Mrs Jonathan  .
And Jonathan  was justice of the peace and quite a leader in  ar area.
After my father's death in twenty three, he was executive of the estate and my guardian.
Co-guardian with my mother.
So I have close contact with the   family from from my childhood.
And anyway erm I first went to  and the money ran out and so  Grammar School, and then er I was transferred to PorthMadog County School where er Jonathan  at that time was chairman of the board of governors.
And after some slight difficulty I wasn't a very good student, er I finished early before There was no chance of my passing matric anyway.
It would have been a w waste of time.
So I became er an office boy at  Brothers.
By this time they had purchased a building which had been I think a a bank or a savings bank or something at  Street in Porthmadog.
And that's where I served as an office boy, kind of a a latter day Bob Cratchitt.
How old were you then?
Well I was between sixteen and seventeen because I think I started r er working there in the  mid Summer or or m early Spring of twenty seven, and worked there through that period, all through nineteen twenty eight, then I emigrated to the United States in nineteen twenty nine.
So I was between say sixteen and seventeen and erm  Brothers er by this time of course, Mr Richard  was dead.
And his son in law O J , had become one of the partners and my cousin   was one of the partners, but old Jonathan  was still the senior partner.
The rest of the staff was W old W J , who had been who had worked in the central Post Office I think in London, very well trained in in er office management and so on so on.
And then your cousin er Margaret .
.
And then er  James  was a doctor of Captain James  and er a daughter of Captain James  .
She had another sister by name of Nellie, went to school with me in in Porthmadog and another one older, I've forgotten what her name was.
But we were the staff and er er my uncle Jonathan was a very victorian in every way.
I think he was er at one time, head of the er Calvinistic Methodist Church and he was a great chapel goer.
And a very strict man and er his word was law.
Now  and Robert were in the front room sharing a room, and uncle Jonathan had his own room upstairs and there was a little bathroom up there.
And then we were down below and er there was erm a table with some antique typewriters on it.
And then we had the desks, sloped desks so that these huge big er
Ledgers?
ledgers that are now on the archives could be l placed down there and  fascinated me because he could add a column of pounds, shillings and pence, he'd take his three fingers at the bottom of the long ledger column, and as fast practically like a computer, would add to the top and then put it in pencil.
And then And never made a mistake of course, he tried to teach me but it was just a waste of time.
But anyway I did have to do some of them.
But my basic job would be kind of a dogsbody for everybody.
I had to keep the fire going for example and I had to  go and get er some e Eccles cakes for Uncle Jonathan for his tea.
And the telephone number I remember to this day, was Porthmadog  so that shows it was at least probably the  telephone to to go into being in Porthmadog.
He didn't like using the telephone.
But er Uncle Jonathan only used the telephone if if absolutely essential.
And necessary.
H he thought that er it was very imperative for orderly behaviour and for a well organized and to put things in writing.
And as a matter of some real interest, he would have a copy made and for example say that er I was a messenger boy among other things, he would er give me a a written hand written And he wrote beautifully.
A hand written note to go to say, er er Lloyd George in George's offices.
And William George of course was still practising at that time.
Down the road.
And and er say  send something to William George, or something involving the magistrates cos he was chairman of the of the er of the er
The bench.
bench.
And he would then call f ring three times I think  maybe it was four times, and it was my my job to then run upstairs and I mean fast, you didn't dawdle.
And, Yes sir?
And he would say, Go on Aled  Mr William George .
And he'd have written a thing I'm just using William George as an example of course.
Yes.
Yeah.
And he said, Here's the note.
And then he would fold it very carefully and put it in an envelope and then slit the flap he'd he'd not seal the envelope.
And he said, Now, he said, Why do I do this?
Well I had no idea of course.
He said, Well, he said, it's a matter of tradition.
That if you send Number one you should never use any messenger unless the messenger is trustworthy.
And naturally you expect a member of our own family to be trustworthy.
Therefore, he said, you're to show your trust in the messenger, you never seal the envelope.
Then the receiver would know that this was a trustworthy messenger and could treat you accordingly.
Now, he said, if there's any question of doubt, he'll seal it and then the receiver would know there was some question of doubt, and he would seal back the reply.
But if it came unopened, unsealed, he would return the reply unsealed.
He said, That is a showing that people are honest.
Which made quite an impression on me er have you heard of this before Aled?
No and er what is interesting to me too is that erm in that office, you w w were responsible for carrying me message in the Porthmadog area.
Now erm the letters that were er written, there was always copies made.
Oh yes.
How was this done?
And er this of course er we th the office was being run I would think in the early twenties very much like it was done in the late nineties.
And we had all the equipment that was needed, the only new thing wa was a very aged er er typewriter, maybe 
Mm.
two.
And there was the best one of course, your cousin was able to use.
So then er  and I had to do with the  antique .
The other.
Mm.
But basically, when my uncle he sometimes would dictate his letters.
And your cousin was one of the first one of the few women I ever knew, who could take shorthand in Welsh.
Because he wrote quite a few letter in Welsh and he would dictate them to er Margaret .
Margaret.
And then she'd type them on this special machine that had indelible ink in it.
Then  it was my job to take the original t and take the original because they didn't use erm er black-sheet as we M er Americans call it .
Carbon.
D didn't use carbons.
You would take then the original, and you'd put it in the copy press.
there's be books o of they were leather-bound er letter books you see.
And flimsies on them.
And you would take this book and you'd put a hard piece of  it was a kind of a a cardboard that wouldn't absorb water I've forgotten what the thing was made of.
You'd put that down first.
Then you'd put the flimsy down.
Er no no the out the the original of the er letter down.
Yeah.
Then you'd put the flimsy over it and then there was a kind of a an e an absorbent kind of a rag the right size, not too wet, cos if it was too wet it would run.
And you'd put that on top of the flimsy and you'd close the book and you'd take the book and put it in the letter press and squeeze it  Archimedes theory of a screw and this thing My cousin  later told me, was bought third hand in eighteen sixty nine.
So God knows where it was built.
And er it's cast iron of course, with a steel screw and then er  big brass balls on the end of this thing and then you would squeeze it down and then if you did it correctly, you took it out and the indelible ink, would have transferred the actually letter including the signature on the flimsy which was then filed in the
Ledger.
in in in the ledger.
In the letter ledger you see.
For for every amen.
And then you mailed the letter or delivered the letter or whatever was necessary.
Yeah.
Now you didn't have to copy everything, but Uncle Jonathan was very meticulous and anything that there would be any debate on, or any discussion on, he always made a copy and it was my job to do this without smearing it.
And if I smeared a copy, God help cos then there'd be a problem.
Er
How many of these a day would you have?
Was it quite a lot?
Oh yes, because er we had a lot of letter going back an forth to architects or to other slate merchants or to quarry owners.
Mm.
Or er you know er quotations on this ,
Yes.
and quotations on that.
And you had to be careful and you had to keep your hands clean.
That was one of the orders, there was a little bathroom down in the in the first floor and the thing that they must not get, was your hands dirty.
Now old  wore a black thing afore his shirt, now because he was with ink all over him you see, but he he he didn't do this.
That was my job so therefore my hands had to be constantly clean and that's not easy for a seventeen year old to keep his hands clean all the time but I had to.
And if you did smear it, there was all hell to pay because then, Margaret, your cousin, would have to retype it.
Yeah.
And then I'd have the joy of taking it up to Uncle Jonathan to get a new signature and of course he'd know that something had gone wrong and then he'd 
Yeah.
looked over his glasses  you see.
And then they had a dumb waiter from er the main office to  and  and Robert's office and and  did not suffer fools gladly either.
. And so he'd holler down, he wanted a certain book of correspondence and invariably you might put the wrong one in.
And once I nearly got my head flattened, cos I sent up the wrong thing and bang he sent it down and I just got my head out of there in time.
But this was a part This was a very dangerous job to stick your nose up in there.
But then.
we had a strong room were some of the very confidential matters, estates and all that kind of stuff, er was kept and some money kept.
And because er as I said, this had originally been a bank or a 
Mm.
savings and loan or something and this was a big strongroom in there.
And it was a lot lot of fun you see, to to get in there I hope   will never hear this, to get  in there and squeeze her.
In the strong room.
Yeah.
But er then there was erm a desk  we had big stools and poor old  was trying desperately to get me to add correctly you see, and he'd he'd let me add and then he'd always find there was a mistake in it and he'd try to tell me why.
Didn't carry this, didn't carry that.
But I was supposed to do some of the clerical work.
But he checked every bit of my work of course and so most of the time  do it by himself and let and me do other things.
And then the table where the girls sat on their typewriters, then there was a on this on  a hall, you came into a hall.
And there was erm a kind of a glass door, a sliding door with a er b bell push on it.
So that if somebody come in to call, they'd pull this thing and then Mr  or somebody would open the the sliding door and  you see.
So  one time I made a very sad mistake, Somebody pushed the bell, and I opened it and I said, I'll have two bitters.
And it was my Uncle Jonathan.
Well this was not very good.
So orders were given that I was not under any condition to open that thing unless I knew  who was there .
You also got into trouble about the press didn't you?
Oh yes.
Trying to impress er  and your your cousin, on my strength you know, young men always try to sh show women of any age, how strong they are.
Up to a certain point.
I've reached that point now.
I couldn't fight my way out of a paper bag now .
I I was trying to show  how tight
Yeah.
I could squeeze this
Yeah.
thing and cracked it.
So naturally I had to get it with  and it was heavier th I don't know how much it weighed, I I I got it by the way, in my barn in  farm in  Indiana, one of the last relics of  Brothers.
And I had to put it on the seat of my bicycle, push it all the way and it'd be a good mile from  Street to  right across from .
To have them er weld it.
Cos it was cracked, it was useless of course.
And and I had to pay for it of course.
Now I was making ten shillings a week, and I had to pay a penny toll every day to come to  from  office.
And then I had to pay tuppence in  cafe for a cup of tea and mother would fix me a sandwich.
And occasionally if I was really flush, I'd buy a little cake for another tuppence you see.
Couldn't afford to go to  they was too expensive.
Anyway I had to push this thing and had to wait for it.
No no I wasn't allowed to wait for it cos it was gonna take  peddled all the way back to do something else.
And the next day I picked it up and of course it was ten shillings, my full 
Week's wages.
Yes .
week's er wages and erm and I'd deservedly so, it was my own damn fault.
Mhm.
It was years later that my cousin  who dies some years ago, he was ninety two.
Told me that at just about the same age, he did the same thing to try and impress the then girl in in the office.
So anyway that was one of the reasons, when I found that  Brothers was slowly going out of business, when I saw  last in , and I asked him if er I could have this thing?
And he said, Well, he said, you go and see .
was still there.
This was many years ago now ab ten years ago I guess, so I went and saw  and of course, erm Mr  was dead and his son was running it and  had sold his shares.
But anyway, they allowed this that they didn't have any further use for it that I could have it.
SO I asked some friends of mine who were in the antique business from , Indiana, pick it up.
And I've got it at home.
But er it was interesting that both young men
Mm.
s s several decades apart, had broken this about the same place you see.
When you were in the office,wh was there much contact with overseas countries, were they shipping a lot of slate ?
Yes there was still some contact with Hamburg, and there was still some contact with other Baltic ports and then there was some contact in repairing of of erm s churches.
I think I think there was som some sent to Chester for example, I think they were doing something in the cathedral in Chester.
Mm.
And then you were talking about San Francisco earlier, now there are some churches in San Francisco that had Welsh slate and it must have gone by sea all the way
Yeah.
to to to San Francisco  before my time.
The one that I remember and I hope that that er the papers are either here in Caernarfon in the archives or p possible in the National Library because my cousin , gave most of the  Brothers papers that he had control over 
Mm.
to the National er
Library.
Library in Wales.
And I understand that  have given you the balance here.
Mm.
So therefore the the  Brothers are divided.
And anyway the thing that I remem recall vividly, this happened in nineteen early nineteen twenty eight.
It was years later that I knew all about it.
But the Rockefeller Brothers as you probably know, have spent millions of dollars in redoing er Williamsburg, Virginia which was the colonial capital.
And also where   from  taught at William and Mary College.
And is buried there.
And er William The college of William and Mary is still going of course.
They're one of the fine universities of Virginia.
But anyway, some lawyer I think in New York, working for Rockefeller Brothers, sent a piece of slate to my Uncle Jonathan, asking him could he tell, what quarry in Wales, this particular tile had come from.
Because the governor's palace was in a state of very sad repair and they had to put a new roof in it.
And they had come to the conclusion that it was not American slate cos there were no quarries in that time.
Even in Pennsylvania, and that this was Welsh slate taken probably from Bristol in Ballast to get tobacco back.
So I cannot tell you now, I can't remember where the quarry was whether it was North Wales Quarry, whether it was  Slate Quarry down in in in 
Mm.
South Wales, because Uncle Jonathan was part owner of the  Quarry.
And as you know, the  slate's on
Mm.
on er er the college here in
Mm.
in Bangor.
And but anyway, I remember this inquiry coming in.
And the old man saying exactly what quarry it came from.
Mm.
And then writing back to this contact i either in New York or in Virginia or wherever it was, saying that it th they would give him the dimensions of the roof, that they could tell him exactly how many slates they'd need to cover it.
So many squares you see.
Mm.
Mm.
So e eventually, in due course, Brothers got the order.
To furnish the slates to reroof the governor's palace in Williamsburg Virginia.
And I hope when you go there e Aled that you'll look at that because that's all Welsh slate.
Mm.
And handled by  Brothers now.
I I remember working on some of the of the paperwork involved in it.
We had a you know there was a lot of paperwork involved.
We had to but the slates, we had to er g get the right dimensions, the right thickness and all that stuff.
And so I worked on it as as a kid now.
I wasn't er the main one of course because it was 
Mm.
all very high mucky muck stuff and they wouldn't trust me with anything but at least I did the copying work on it.
Yeah.
So it must be in the records somewhere.
Yeah that's very interesting.
How many slate shippers were there in in PorthMadog when you were in the  office, was there another shipper?
Well  was er er er was 
Yeah.
sending slates and er  I think I don't know if there are any o er er many of the slate merchants had gone .
Had gone out of business, yeah.
There were some of course in in Bangor and Caernarfon.
Yeah.
Yes.
From the .
Yes.
But not in Porthmadog  
Not in Porthmadog I think I think that I think that  Brothers probably was the last.
Yeah.
Slate merchants.
Erm David  the shipbuilder was still alive then wasn't he I think.
Do you er did  but they hadn't built a ship in Porthmadog since nineteen thirteen.
disappeared?
No I remember I er I don't remember the yard.
No.
But I remember so I remember the ships some of the ships in in Porthmadog.
Yeah.
Because er on another er matter, my Uncle John John  from from er .
During the first war he'd he'd lost a ship and so finally he decided to buy a ship and he bought two little schooners in f in Porthmadog.
One I think was the industry and the other was was it the Brendan that he says in
Yeah.
Brandon yes.
Well I remember being aboard the Brandon, because Uncle John came and stayed with us at the cliff and er, er father was at sea somewhere but he came and stayed with us and then he now went down into  er to see his captain cos they were sailing on on the tide the next day.
I think they were going somewhere to Ireland, I'm not sure, but they had a load of of slates.
For somewhere and and something else.
May maybe something I don't know what they .
How many crew would there be on the Brandon?
About four or five.
And anyway, they sailed cos I was aboard the night before they sailed as a .
This was about nineteen seventeen.
You see I I'd be about seven.
But I was interested in the sea, I wanted to go to sea, and and er Uncle John was my pirate uncle I thought.
Yeah.
very fond of.
And erm he'd gone to sea at a very early age and had er  both steam and sail and you k I've given you his history, er and he was quite a fellow.
But the only thing I know is that that ship was sunk by the Germans in Cardigan Bay.
Probably the next day.
And I was interested in seeing er er your T V series about this ship from Porthmadog that was sunk in the Mediterranean.
Yeah.
But you didn't mention a a thing about a ship being sunk in cardigan Bay.
Maybe you didn't know about it.
Anyway, the only we know is that the lifeboat was washed ashore near , and not a sign of of men on it.
So the men all were lost.
And as I recall, there was some talk that there were some machine gun bullets in in in in the boat.
In the boat.
Yeah.
In the boat.
And this was nineteen seventeen?
About nineteen seventeen, towards the end of the war.
Cos there were a lot of losses of course o in  after the convoys had been introduced for the ocean thing but they hadn't introduced convoys for inshore.
That's right.
And this is where the ships were being lost.
That's right.
And of course 
Mm.
a a sailing vessel was duck soup.
Absolutely.
And of course er the Cardigan Bay is dangerous for submarines God knows but they were pretty good submariners,
Yeah.
the Germans were.
Yes.
And they would be  
They'd be they'd be on their way If they were going to Ireland, they'd be a a a well away from St Patrick wouldn't they?
Yes.
Oh absolutely.
No you w to go back to your days in the office, erm you say that there was er er this group of wo people working in the office.
Yeah.
Erm  were there er opportunities for boys in Porthmadog to get erm work or was it a a period when it was difficult to get work?
Well er don't forget  it was it was after the w after the war and the depression.
You see the shell factory at er at  had closed down and of course there was a lot of women and er out of work there and boys too.
And the  ex the  explosives were just starting up.
Th they had been Mi Ministry of munitions works
Yeah.
Making T N T in in .
Yeah.
And the quarries of course were er the the the pretty dead.
The quarries never fully recovered really after the big strike you know .
and also of course the fact that the German market had closed.
The German market had closed.
Which was the reason the raison d'etre 
That's right because you see the the German Mark was worthless.
Mm.
In the twenties.
Yeah.
And er you you the I even if they wanted to to to buy Welsh slates,
Mm.
They didn't have the wherewithal.
No.
And of course another thing and and my Uncle Jonathan was a very great liberal and a great believer in free trade, but I think his faith in free trade started to take a a bashing because he was inundated by French and Belgian sl er er not slate er
Tile.
Tile.
Mm.
Was coming i 
Yes.
in other words, there were very n very little new building
Mm.
going on with with with the specifications of of of of slates.
I remember for example having to to to send reams of letters to architects
Mm.
and I found that you do not address an architect as Mr Jones, it must be Edward T Jones Esquire.
Yeah.
And er because they were professional men you see .
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
To come back to Jonathan  for a moment, you say he was a great liberal, he was an admirer of Lloyd George?
He was one of  Lloyd George's very early supporters.
And er whether this is true or not is immaterial, it's part of the family er story that when Lloyd George was importuned by the this family up in .
Er w and he'd been turned down by  and all the other er top lawyers in
Yeah.
in in Porthmadog or  on taking on er the the Bishop of Bangor, I mean that was taking on
Mm.
A pretty important er creature you see.
And er the story's been told many many times that Lloyd George advised them, I've forgotten the name of the old man, but his wife was buried in the churchyard, and his family wanted to bury him next to her, but they wanted the nonconformist
Mm.
minister
Mm.
to do the the honours.
And of course the disestablishment, disendowment bill had passed but No it had not passed then.
It was one of the things that brought it about but they they could bury her there, but only the Anglican
Mm.
priest could er do the honours.
Mm.
You know, the nonconformist was anathema.
So Lloyd George as the story goes, advised them to go there with their father and take some crowbars with them, and not to break down the gate, to break down the wall, and take their minister with them and bury their father.
Then he said, the Bishop of Bangor will have to sue you.
Then I'll take the case.
Well he was just a struggling young lawyer in Porthmadog.
But a close personal friend of Jonathan .
Jonathan was a was a coming up he was then, not then a Justice of the Peace but he was a up and coming young young er business man in Porthmadog and of course Porthmadog was a very er prosperous place at that time.
And the slate merchants were doing alright because there were thousands and thousands of tonnes of slate going through their hands.
And so the story goes that he er said he would support David er David G Lloyd George and help on this case.
And the story that I heard which may not be true that he had  he didn't have the wig and gown.
Because it eventually went it a high court you remember.
And so er well they hired it from Moss Bros  they did, Uncle Jonathan paid the fee, for the rental of the of the gown and whatnot to to try this case.
But that's what I was told, whether it's true or not, maybe the Lloyd George people deny it but there it is.
He didn't have much money you see at that time.
What else do you remember about Porthmadog, you were talking about it d during the war years now for example when you were a very young boy.
Erm what else do you remember about Porthmadog during that period?
Well I remember er there was a fella by the name of  Have you ever run across him?
Or ?
Who was a second or third officer on the Lusitania.
And he ended up as the port captain for Cunard in New York.
Because they had to keep him there for so damn long in this inquiry er the senate inquiry and all the stuff on the Lusitania.
So he finally they made him port captain for for Cunard and I knew him.
He he was a contemporary of my cousin .
That's one thing I remember.
And then of course there was always  young men being lost at sea.
And erm my my Mrs Jonathan , my aunt Auntie Bessie, invariably in Porthmadog, went to call on the families of people who'd been lost, as my mother did in in  we lost you see in  fifty two men killed in world war one.
And er I remember one one day, there was nineteen of them.
maybe it was the battle of the Somme, I don't remember, but I remember I had to go carrying the basket, and mother would go and call on these poor people who had lost their their families.
And occasionally I'd go with Auntie Bessie in in Porthmadog you see.
Do you remember the any particular vessels being lost?
Do you remember  
The Brandon I remember.
Yes.
Because I was aboard her.
Mhm.
That's right yes.
But erm
Did you see any of the other schooners in there?
Do you remember  
Oh yes  there used to be a lot of schooners.
Then there was an old ship, the Spooner,
Yes the Sea Spooner.
Sea Spooner, now she became a hulk didn't she.
Yeah.
And she was laying up by the quay by  where they've got those
Yeah.
silly buildings now.
But she was there when I was a boy and even when I went to school in Porthmadog.
Yes.
When did she b break up eventually?
Er  
Must have been the thirties.
Ye yes I think so, yes.
And the Elizabeth came back to er Porthmadog at the end of the war I believe and was erm she was a schooner and also didn't er er David  the builder buy some submarines for scrap or something?
Seems to me that there was some  and then of course the Wave of Life 
Yes.
I rem vaguely remember her.
You may remember her yes.
Yeah yes .
Vaguely you see, seeing her puffing up and down.
Yes.
We'll stop there erm for a minute.
Does this make sense?
Now another er I remember after the war, er  's explosives took over the  works in in .
And they started er exporting whatever they were making, explosives.
A lot of them of course went to the quarries, but then they had a little steamer called the Florence Cook and she plied wherever she went and you probably know where she went.
Mm.
Used to go to Liverpool I think.
Yeah.
And some other places.
Maybe maybe Wrexham  somewhere.
But she I remember her going  in and out of Porthmadog.
's father was master of her at one stage.
Was he?
Was he?
Yes that was a point of contact 
Yes.
And Jack  of course went  ran her out once I think.
Yes.
Jack  of course er er I I know I've known him  know him in the United States, but er Jack  jumped ship in Baltimore.
Yes.
I don't know what ship he was on?
No.
No.
Jumping ship No he w he went to the United States, so did you.
When did you go to the United States?
Well I went to the United States, I I I sailed from on the R M S Corinthia, from Liverpool on the twenty eighth of September, nineteen twenty nine, and arrived in New York, on the seventh or eighth of September in nineteen twenty nine, which was just one week before the stock market crash.
And I was er I was er let me see, eighteen years and ten months old.
And er I of course always wanted to go to sea, but er wh with two drowning in the family, er mother w w didn't appreciate that much.
So anyway I finally persuaded her that I'd that I'd like to emigrate to to the United States and she we I had some contacts in the United States of course, through her.
I'm sorry to disturb you.
That's alright.
May I just put this on
Yes.
Mr  's desk.
Right.
.
I'll take these away too.
Thank you very much for the coffee.
Have you got your 
Very good.
Yes yes thank you.
thank you very much .
Right 
Er now it's it's rather interesting er  as an aside, I'd heard that the Central African mounted police were trying to hire young men of er er at least sound mind and  probably tough body.
And the theory was that if you served thirty years in the Ce Central African police, you'd be given a section of land in what later became Rhodesia.
And of course I I wanted some land as I presume all Welshmen are land hungry.
And especially since we were freeholders, er but anyway, er thank God I wasn't quite old enough.
And I didn't go, but a chap that I knew from  whose name I can't remember at the moment, did go and he was killed within about three months of his er arriving in Africa.
Probably I would have been too.
But so then my mother  My mother's father and the father of Golden Rule Mayor Jones of Toledo, Sam Jones, born in  were first cousins.
And er Golden Rule Jones there's all kinds of stories about him of course.
He became a very rich man but he he er ran his company based on the golden rule  
Which was?
To do unto others as you would have others do unto you.
He was the first man to organize an eight hour day, and two weeks' vacation with pay.
And erm there's a lot  they've they've they've done some television work on him and anyway er in nineteen O three, he came over in the you know about in nineteen hundred with his family and I've got a picture of them in  that's where he came from in .
And   from  is quite a he's doing some research into him and   who comes form  you know these people.
And they're chasing chasing him.
Well he was my my mother's first cousin you see.
So he invited her sent her a ticket to come to America for a year in nineteen three.
But my grandmother was an old victorian, my mother would not  then insisted that she have a chaperon, so Mrs Jonathan , Auntie Bessie, went with her.
But er according to my mother's great joy, she got seasick even on the landing stage in in Liverpool and never came out of her cabin, so she had a big time as a young women running around the ship.
And old man Heinz of Heinz fifty seven varieties, they were a big time, and gave her a little silver pickle with Heinz on it.
sterling silver, and I've still got it.
But anyway, she went to so she had she she wasn't she'd been very pro American until I decided I was gonna emigrate.
But anyway, she made me promise that my first day in New York, I'd go to  Statue of Liberty.
Now Statue of Liberty of course is in in the news.
And when I was when I got to New York, I was met by two first cousins from two different families er Bert  who's er er nephew of my my mother's sister Laura Anne in in New York, and another one, William  who'd been very successful  vice president of  or something.
So anyway, erm they met me and Bert had to go back to his office and Will said he had to go back to his office, but he said, What would you like to do?
I said I'd like to go see the Statue of Liberty, I promised my mother I would.
Well he said, Alright, he said,I've made arrangements for your baggage to be picked up and you'll stay with me in New Rochelle, and he was going away and he slipped me ten bucks cos I only had ten pounds money.
And he said, here's a cab, and you tell this cab driver where you want to go.
So I had no idea where this place was, I knew where it was at the chart but I didn't know where it was from from pier fifty four in New York.
Cunard Pier.
So I got aboard this cab, and the guy said, Buddy where do you want to go to?
And I didn't know what this buddy meant?
And I said, I want to go to  's Island.
He said, Where?
And I said,'s Island.
He said, Never heard of it.
I said, Obviously you haven't read the chart, that's where the Statue of Liberty is, on  's Island.
Cos I had studied the chart to k know something about er and I I presume I was one of the few people in New York, who knew the damn thing was on  's Island you see.
Anyway I went there and I was impressed, I'd seen it from the ship and I completely concur with everything that's been said.
How all those immigrants and children of immigrants, that the Statue of Liberty, means a great deal to those Americans who whose parents or who came themselves from another country.
Now I wasn't coming I wasn't a refugee from anything except unemployment.
But erm er the on that ship I remember we stopped at Queenstown .
And I remember a whole boat-load of these young Irish lads and lasses coming aboard you know, weeping and wailing.
And there was a guy with one arm,and saying, you know, Come ye back to Ireland.
You know.
very moving but we had a big big time and of course when you're eighteen, er it'd be an adventure.
And of course er I knew something about America, my mother had been there and er we had some c I had eighteen first cousins in America when I went there.
But anyway, my job was to go out to Toledo.
And stopped on the way of course in .
And they tell the story you know about the Welshman from  or erm  or somewhere, emigrating to America and heard about  all his life as being the great Welsh centre.
And we got to New York .
. How much bigger will  be?
in his mind was bigger than New York.
Yeah.
But anyway er New York in those days, first time I ever remember, I ran into the flappers you see.
Girls with silk stockings and  and the girls in in er Wales I must say, and even in Liverpool in those days, used to wear  stockings.
Mm.
But these silk stocking things you know just
Yeah.
drive a man up the wall.
But anyway er that's when I went and then I went from there to Toledo, Ohio.
And er what I had done really was to skip going into the bank.
Er my brother John  had been er gone to work for the  Bank in  and unfortunately was drowned in an accident when he was not quite twenty.
And he had begged my mother not to ever put me in the bank.
And the only examination that I ever voluntarily and with malice aforethought,
Mm.
er failed, was the  Bank examination, entrance examination in Colwyn Bay in nineteen twenty seven I think it was.
And that's one of the reasons I ended up I ended up in in  Brothers because I had missed the chance to go into work with the  Bank you see.
And I didn't want to go work for the  Bank.

going to be lecturing you erm about foreign policy and foreign policy making.
Erm there'll be seven lectures on this subject and that's a fair number of course but it's not enough to cover the full range of things that I'd want normally to talk to you about  and so what I'm going to do is to aim to introduce you to some of the central concepts of foreign policy, of ways of analysing it, of the models that are used, the ideas erm er surrounding foreign policy and also to illustrate these with examples.
Now to do that effectively I think it's essential that I get you to participate in what's happening so from time to time I'm going to ask you to answer questions, sometimes by writing them down, sometimes by shows of hands erm sometimes by er reacting back erm to the questions that I ask.
So I won't start that immediately but during the lecture we'll start to build that up.
The other thing I ask of you is to do some initial reading around the lectures.
The book I've chosen is this one, Understanding Foreign Policy by Michael Clarke and Brian White who are editors, so if you could note that book down please, Understanding Foreign Policy, it is on your list, Understanding Foreign Policy by Michael Clarke and Brian White.
They are the editors, they're not the sole authors so each chapter has a different author erm and like all books some are stronger than others  but what I would like you to do for the next, by the time we meet next time, that's on Monday the next lecture, please have read chapters one and two of that book.
It is available of course in the library but also you can buy copies, it's a, I think it's a reasonable price, in the S P C K bookshop.
Well I'm going to start today by a number of questions, general questions about foreign policy.
Can you read that?
I'll dim er if I can find a dimmer I'll dim the  You can read it now can't you?
Well the first question is, is foreign policy different from other areas of policy making?
Well you ca er as with most academic questions, you can see it both ways.
The answer is partly yes and partly no.
Now let's try the no part first.
It includes bureaucratic processes, there are ministries of foreign affairs, there is the foreigner and commonwealth office in Britain, there is interaction between officials in policy making in building it up together so there is a bureaucratic process involved in erm foreign policy.
Before the meeting, you know at the moment John Major is in Moscow, erm before that meeting there'll have been much work done by the officials on briefing papers, on trying to identify the potential issues that are going to come up in the meeting, there'll have been a lot of background work that would be similar er to patterns of relationships between various departments erm in any process of decision making.
Equally the attitudes and decisions of foreign policy will be influenced by the ideology of the people who make the policy and also their perception of the world.
Let me carry on with this same erm position of John Major erm meeting the Russian president.
Both of course come from very different cultures and very different backgrounds.
They are also are in different political situations.
I mean there was, there was a wonderful Times cartoon, I don't know if you saw it, of Yeltsin showing all the troubles he, he couldn't control his government, there were economic problems, people were being nasty to him apparently as he was saying how do we manage  and it turns out of course at the end, the final kick line is he's talking about John Major's situation.
Erm so there are some similarities but plainly there are clear differences between them and that influences, influences very much erm what they're trying to achieve.
A particular case of course is in relation to Bosnia Hercegovina, erm Russia has traditionally been close to the Serbs erm and therefore is worried, not only about the situation within erm the old Yugoslavia itself, Bosnia Hercegovina, but also about the reaction erm within Russia if it is seen to take too anti a Serb line erm in the, in the crisis that's being faced there.
So there are answers that no it's not that different in some ways from other fore er from other policy making but there is another side of foreign policy in which you say yes, there are clear differences.
One of the differences is that foreign policy is made in an international environment in which the government cannot claim sovereignty.
Sovereignty is the, we'll turn to it later, we'll look at sovereignty again, but linked to sovereignty is the idea that you can make legislation, you can pass laws and then you can say these laws are going to be carried out, implemented by courts followed by sanctions  though very little law is related to foreign policy  because the British government or the Russian government or the United States government can't make laws which apply worldwide or outside its own area of claimed sovereignty  so there is a difference of the environment in which foreign policy takes place.
Secondly  there tends to be a coming together within the erm the parties of any one country in its foreign policy attitudes.
There's a saying which isn't entirely true that the politics stops at the waters' edge.
What that means is that when you're facing up to foreign situations, you tend to pull together  you tend not to divide  you tend not to emphasise the differences between you.
Now that doesn't frankly entirely work but on the whole there is a tendency to push differences less strongly in foreign affairs than in domestic affairs.
Now having said the answer is both yes and no, of course part of the reason for the yes and the no is there is a very large overlap between domestic policy and foreign policy.
Erm the two interact constantly and you can see foreign policy in some ways as a bridge between what goes on within the frame, the domestic framework of a country and what goes on in the international environment which surrounds it.
Now let me try a first question on you.
Why did President Clinton agree for erm  Terry Adams?
What's his first name, the erm ?
Jeremy.
Jerem Jeremy is it?
Gerry.
Gerry Adams, that's right I've go Gerry Adams, why did Professor Clinton agree for Gerry Adams to visit erm the United States?
Anybody call out  yes, it's a question I'm asking you.
Anybody have a go at it.
Yes please.
platform to do that.
He thought he was, sorry?
take the opportunity of his trip to America to renounce violence  Downing Street peace plan.
Yes that's absolutely right about Gerry Adams.
I'm trying to think of President Clinton, why did President Clinton agree to give him a visa?
Yes?
Was it to keep the Irish population happy?
Which Irish population?
In America.
In America.
The I would think that's one of the factors, I er it's a very good point that, to keep the Irish population of the United States happy.
But I, I don't think it was the total picture but it was one of the reasons I think that persuaded President Clinton to invite Gerry Adams, or to lift the visa for forty eight hours.
Now there's a very good example of the way in which a domestic concern has an impact in terms of international events  because obviously it put a strain on Anglo-U S relations.
I mean it may have pleased the Irish government a bit but it's got implications both domestically and internationally.
I also think he probably thought that it might help to ease the tension erm in Northern Ireland, whether it did or not I leave as an open debate and I don't think there was just a single motive for President Clinton's decision, but the one I was trying to demonstrate which was hit straight away was there was a domestic element, a des domestic political element in the decision.
And of course another very clear example of the overlap between domestic concerns and international concerns is Maastricht and the great debate that's gone on in Britain about whether or not we should have agreed to the Maastricht Treaty.
Let me try erm a straw poll on you and I'm going to ask those of you, I'll give you a moment or two, who would've signed up the Maastricht Treaty and who would not have signed up the Maastricht Treaty if you'd've had a free vote?
You're er for the moment you're not committed to a party, you've just got to take an individual decision and I know Maastricht is very complicated but there's a lot of gut feeling as well as precise knowledge about these things, so I want to take a vote.
Who would have signed the Maastricht Treaty?
Who would not have signed the Maastricht Treaty?
Well I'd say it was about sixty five thirty five for the Maastricht Treaty.
What I'll do is I'll try another straw poll at the end of the seven lectures  and see how we  feel then to see if we've erm we've shifted, so I think there it was about, I'm guessing, sixty five thirty five in favour of Maastricht.
But another clear example of the way in which erm domestic and in erm foreign policy overlaps is of course in economic affairs.
Erm for example if you hear,an and defence matters as well, if we hear for example that Saudi Arabia has decided to buy a series of British tanks, that is a foreign policy decision whether or not to allow those tanks erm to be sold to Saudi Arabia and we know from the Iraq arms business the way in which erm it is a de a conscious decision of government whether or not to do these things.
But how is it reported in north eastern papers?
Is it reported as saying Britain grows closer to Saudi Arabia?
Not at all, the way it's reported in north eastern newspapers is more jobs for Vickers Armstrong erm in Newcastle  because there the manufacture of tanks is very important indeed to the local prospects of the economy.
So there are many examples in fact erm  of the way in which economic affairs overlaps both domestic and foreign policy.
Now let's turn to the next question.
Is foreign policy making similar for all governments?
Because if we can't generalize then I, perhaps I should be talking about British foreign policy or Iranian foreign policy or South African foreign policy  are there generalizations we can make and say well it is similar for all governments?
You won't be surprised to hear it's another yes, no answer.
Yes there are similarities in the sense that all are operating in the international environment I mentioned before.
You've no choice, you're part of the international environment and you operate in that and you can't control, as I've said before, er even if you're as powerful as the United States, you can't control that environment and you don't claim to control that environment in the same way that you claim to control your domestic environment.
Also it is a common feature of course that you need to order the resources, that you have the resource in terms of people or the economy or the armed forces, you need to order those resources to try to achieve your ends erm and we'll look at that later, the aims that you're going for in foreign policy  so they're common, that you're in the same environment, that you've got to m er whatever the resources you have you have to try to organize them to achieve your ends and so on.
And another common feature is that each separate country, each state, claims sovereignty  that is it claims a legal equality erm within the international order.
Who would like to have a go at describing for us the General Assembly of the United Nations?
What is the General Assembly of the United Nations?
A blank so far?
Come on, have a go even if it's wrong, you'll remember if you make a mistake later.
Would you like to have a go ?
Er is it each country has one 
That's right, that's very good.
It's a
No  no it's, it's very good  he actually had a go  and the rest of you  were sitting there dumbfounded by the question.
The General Assembly is the er assembly of the unit the part of the United Nations in which each state has a representative  whether you're Swaziland or whether you're Russia, whether you're Ukraine or whether you're Singapore, you have a representative in the General Assembly of the United Nations.
What's the other very well known institution of the United Nations?
Security Council.
Security Council, who s I can't quite focus who  very good, Security Council.
Can you tell us about the s a bit about the Security Council?
Yes it's erm made up of a small proportion of the countries in the General, General Assembly, about five countries and  seats on it erm basically the allies from the second world war erm and the other seats are changed around periodically between the nation, other nations.
Excellent.
Excellent.
The two major organs of the United Nations are a general assembly in which everybody sits and a security council, yes he's looking very pleased with himself  
erm in which you have a core of five permanent members and they are the victors of the second world war erm and then others who sit in in rotation to make up the total assembly but I think it's about eighteen members altogether?
Maybe a bit less than that, I should know but I, I don't know the precise number, but a much smaller assem and frankly with much more effective power in the international community.
And when you come to things like whether or not the U N is going to th er U N actions in Bosnia at the moment, it's the Security Council erm which is trying to take the decisions with the Secretary General of course in charge.
So there are similarities between erm all governments  but plainly, on the other side of the coin, there are differences.
Think for yourself, is foreign policy making in Saddam Hussein's Iraq the same as that in Chancellor Kohl's Germany?
I mean the answer is plainly there are very clear differences.
The domestic situation in which things take place, they are really very different  and you can start to draw up categories, of course, of countries, small big maybe, small medium big  democratic non-democratic, er military dictatorships civilian government  erm and so on , so there are whole series of categories of governments that you can draw up and you can say well these do make a difference in the way erm foreign policy is created.
And of course, although they have a legal sovereignty as I've mentioned, and they each have a place on the General Assembly and the General Assembly of the United Nations, there are enormous differences between the resources which are available erm for different states  and their capacity to act.
You think of, I mean the obvious great power, the one superpower that's left now is the United States  compare the United States with let's say Fiji  enormous difference in terms of the range of interests it has, erm the things in which in there's hardly anything in the world takes place without some claim of the United States to have an interest in it.
There are very few things take place in the world in which Fiji has a direct interest, it may have a general interest in the way things are going but it, direct interests it, it's quite limited.
Its resources erm the contrasts are enormous between the economic and military and cultural and erm educational resources of the United States and that of Fiji  so there are obviously, in foreign policy making, vast differences.
And then you'll find even in er similar types of countries the structure in which foreign policy is made are different.
Let me continue with the United States erm example  in the United States it's a, it's a complex government situation, has Mr  been speaking to you?
Yes he'll have mentioned the United States on occasions I hope cos he teaches the United States, yeah, well as you know I mean there are a number of separate powers, there's the presidential erm there's the presidential power, in foreign policy making I'm talking about, there's president, there's the congress  there's the Pentagon, there's the secretary of state for foreign affairs as well, and one of the characteristics of American policy is the way in which sometimes they can be ha be pursuing separate erm aims  and using different methods.
I have a particular interest in South Africa's erm foreign policy and one of the, from the past, one of the things that South African decision makers have said to me, our dilemma is we do not know what American policy is because if we listen to the Pentagon we get a different voice coming out than if we listen to, let us say, congressional members who are visiting from the committee of foreign affairs.
So the structure in which policy is made erm of er in America is rather plural.
British policy making and there are many similarities between our country, not in size but in terms of its democratic traditions, British policy making tends to be in the end more uniform.
There tends to be, the differences tend to be hammered out behind closed doors and, on the whole, there, there tends to be erm a single voice, it doesn't always happen, but there's more of a single voice in British policy making than American policy making.
Now both have advantages frankly, both have advantages and drawbacks.
But the, the answer to the question then, are or is foreign policy making the same for all governments, again there are similarities.
Linked to the question erm about the, the similarity, is the question are all states unique?
Well each has a particular history erm each has a particular culture  and pattern of doing things, structure of government as I've mentioned  but also of course we have common interests so in foreign policy we sometimes draw differences between what we would regard as the direct interests of each state  and what we can call common interests of mankind.
Now let's take a couple of examples of those  the direct interests of er say in Britain might be er let's take the example of the fishing industry  it's important in Britain for the fishermen of Britain erm to have the right to be able to maintain their livelihoods  and that's an interest, direct interest, of Britain in negotiating with other countries about fishing rights.
But there is also a common interest in the world of preserving fishing stock, not over fishing so that in fact you get the depletion of fishing stock, and therefore somehow you have to balance between your particular interests and the common interests.
I think we've become erm in recent decades more inter more concerned about common interests because we realize more about them.
Well perhaps the technological advances we've seen mean our capacity to handle things has had to expand.
There's a common interest of course of avoiding war  for most people anyway, but there's also a common interest we know related to environmental issues  and that cannot be dealt with by each country, each country may have unique environmental problems but environmental problems straddle erm boundaries of countries as we saw from the Chernobyl  problem of some years ago.
And the final general question I want to ask  is how much choice do foreign policy makers have?
There are in fact, again, conflicting views about this  erm  you can sometimes see it erm in literature in fact.
If you read Tolstoy's novels you will find that the great figures,i i in his War and Peace which is about erm the Napoleonic invasion of erm Russia, has anybody read War and Peace?
It's quite a big book so I erm a good weekend's reading, War and Peace.
Well in War and Peace it's a story of the er I mean there are many themes go on but the broad sweep of history is about the Napoleonic invasion of Russia and the way the Russians defended themselves against the French armies.
Now within that situation Tolstoy paints a picture in which the, even the greatest generals are in fact subject to forces which they cannot control.
In a sense destiny is playing it out for them.
You have some choices but they're pretty marginal, frankly, on the whole erm the choices are predetermined for people  erm we are like minnows in a global situation.
And so you can see by the Tolstoy approach to things the way in which erm choice is really very limited and there's a great sweep of events which carries you on.
Now if you read Mrs Thatcher's memoirs you will decide that instead of a great sweep of events er making things happen, Mrs Thatcher makes things happen.
Erm it's the other end of the scale of seeing the way in which individuals erm perceive their role erm in political developments.
And again, you see this is on the one hand, on the other hand there is some justification in both views.
Any state has limitations on how it can behave, they're partly geographical, it does make a difference whether you're an island or whether you've got no coastline at all.
In southern Africa several of the states have no coastline, Zambia Zimbabwe  Malawi  Swaziland  so they have to depend upon other countries for access erm to the coast, and that means their transport patterns are very very dependent upon others.
That's not true of an island country like Japan, or of Singapore  and they are very much related to transport routes in which they can control much of what's happened.
Secondly of course there are opportunities and limitations to your, the resources that you have and I've mentioned resources before, they can be economic, military, your education system  erm you know at the moment the government's expanding higher education, going up, well we've, we've touched already I think thirty percent now in higher education  one of the reasons for that is not just to, for self-fulfilment for those who are erm involved in higher education as I'm sure you're all self-fulfilling yourself here today, it's because of what is perceived to be a national need for a highly educated workforce.
So there are educational erm resources erm as well as others and in my view one of the great gaps that's starting er that's growing and growing in the world is the difference between educational patterns in the more advanced world and that in some parts of what we normally call the Third World.
But of course there is some choice erm  let me give you a final southern er Africa example of this, Botswana geographically is one of those countries cut off from the sea, it's a very large country but much of it is uninhabitable because it's so arid  it's therefore a small country by almost any standards, number of people, the economy of er of Botswana is small and it's frankly dependent upon South Africa in many ways for its transport, for its economic wellbeing, for the movement of people erm and even some educational resources.
Now Botswana could not cut itself off from South Africa during the long years of apartheid but Botswana did make clear that it opposed apartheid  and voiced this very strongly  and much to the annoyance often of the South African government.
So even in the situation in which apparently you're quite heavily dependent upon a neighbouring state, there usually is some element of choice.
The range and nature of that choice maybe related to the concept of power and I want to talk about power at a future lecture.
But for today I now want to turn to a number of erm  definitions and classifications linked to foreign policy and this is where I want you to start working a bit harder.
The first thing I'd like you to do is try to write er will you please write down erm don't shout out at the moment, write down what would be your definition of foreign policy.
Write down a definition of foreign policy, one sentence definition of foreign policy.
Good well let's try to collect some of the ideas then, would the man sitting in the extreme front, would you like to read out what you've written please?
Yes please.
Erm the process of maintaining a state's interest in the international arena.
Maintaining a state's interest in the international arena, that's a very good start.
Good, let me try the man in red in the centre please, yes.
Yes please, you're looking round, yes, yes
w w what have you written?
You, you're in red and you've got glasses an and you're looking, you're keep on looking down and round and  but it's you I would like to hear from  yes what have you written?
It's erm political  state's interaction with other states.
State's interaction with other states.
That's good too.
Yes, sorry I'm, I'm er  it's dim here so I, sorry I
I  erm let me try somebody else.
The lady right at the back on the, on the b end of the row.
What have you got?
Erm cross state political, economic, social, military and technological issues.
Across states military, economic, etcetera issues, is that right?
And I'll try somebody over here please if I could, the man with his elbow on the left like that, that's right.
Could, sorry, could you speak up please?
Any domestic policy which 
Any domestic policy
Yes  affects the outside world.
Well they're all, they've all got value, they're all useful.
Let me read out roughly what I've got down here, it is the  the pr presentation and er er sorry I've scribbled down and I can't read my scribble altogether, I know it's 
it's interests in international affairs, could you read out again what you said?
The process of maintaining a state's interest in the international arena.
The process of maintaining a state's interest in the international arena.
So it's a process, it's got interests, it's related to a state and it's in the international arena, very good, very good, a lot of erm  er a lot of very good things there.
Now who was the state's interests with other states, was it  were you the state's interests in other states or  no, I keep getting you wrong.
Yes where did I get the state's interest in other states from?
Well I'll have to accept that I don't know where that came from but I've got down here  state's interest  
with other states, and then across state activity, I know where I got, the girl right at the back wasn't it?
Good yes so I've got that right, erm across states, military, economic issues etcetera from others so a range of activities goes on, that's fair enough.
Erm and then any domestic policy which affects the outside, so that's a projection of domestic interests erm into the outside world, so I'll show you what I've written down and it's influenced by what you've got in that book  by Clarke, I'm afraid it falls off the end a bit, foreign policy is a government activity concerned with relations between the state and other actors in the international arena, that should be.
So foreign policy is a government activity concerned with relations between the state and other actors in the international system.
Now frankly you, the things that you said are, are not wrong in any sense, they just are different ways of saying a similar thing.
Let's look at the definition a bit.
First of all it's a government activity, now let's be quite clear about that, we're talking about governments here, we're not talking about erm oil companies or private airlines or non-governmental organizations like Amnesty International, we're talking about governments.
Foreign policy is an activity of governments.
Secondly it's concerned with relations between the state, that is the particular state that the government represents, and other actors in the international system.
Now the next thing I'd like you to note down is when I say other actors in the international system, obviously there are other governments as well but as well as governments if you, the word actors is quite often used in international affairs, if you were to list what the other actors are erm would you, would you note down them, say, put  four or five other actors.
Right let me collect your ideas on this then, erm would you like to tell me what you've written please?
Er  er World Health Organization
W H O, the World Health Organization.
erm international charities such as the Red Cross
Charities, okay that's, that's a good contribution, I don't want to take them all from you, I want others as well.
Erm United Nations er 
U N, European Commission?
You're talking about the commission in particular?
Yes?
No that's alright.
Okay.
Right erm let me go right to the back, the Security Council man, what have you written down?
Erm foreign businesses  er  international laws 
What was the international laws?
Maintenance.
international laws  shipping lanes and stuff like that.
Oh yes, yes.
Okay.
Yes.
Somebody over here, the young lady with black hair, that's right.
Erm well I'd put down the U N 
Yes, U N, okay.
Anything else?
Okay.
Well that's quite a good collection.
W first of all though I think I've got them right this time I hope, the World Health Organization, charities, the United Nations, the European Commission erm foreign business organizations and l the bodies that  lay down regulations er for activities.
Well what we see, if we generalize about these, first of all there are international organizations, the U N is an international organization.
So is the World Health Organization, it's in fact a branch of the U N, so you've got a series of international organizations.
Any other examples of international organizations?
Yes please?
The world bank.
The world bank, the world bank is actually a branch started from the U N. Yes?
NATO.
NATO, yes that's, that, NATO is a of course a military organization.
I think there's a very interesting as well as the, I mean the tragedy that we know of Bosnia Hercegovina, there's a very complex business going on at the moment about the handling of an international situation.
Erm you've got this, this business of threatening to attack the Serbian guns erm involves of course the decisions of individual governments whether or not they're prepared to allow their forces to be involved, in the case of the British whether you're going to allow your forces to get involved in it or not, but in international terms it involves both NATO, which has now passed a resolution saying unless certain conditions are met by a certain time, then there will be bombing of the Serbian positions  but the people on the ground, whether they originally came from France or the Ukraine or from Britain, are in fact under the blue beret of the United Nations and the United Nations and NATO are not altogether, they're not precisely together on this issue.
There's a dilemma of who's taking decisions about what  and should the troops on the ground who may be involved, could be involved in fighting  following an air strike erm are not under a NATO flag, they're under a United Nations flag, so it is quite a complex situation and a very delicate one to handle.
So there, there are international organizations.
Now charities, we would group them together as N G Os they're often called, non- governmental organizations.
Now we've heard charities, any other examples of N G Os?
Yes please?
UNICEF.
The union society?
No  
Oh     sorry.
UNICEF.
UNICEF yes, that's a, another branch of the United Nations but it is, it does operate you're quite right.
Any other?
Pressure groups.
Pressure groups, yes, for example?
Greenpeace.
Greenpeace, very good.
Pressure groups, Greenpeace the anti-apartheid movement, Amnesty International  they do play important parts.
Any members of Amnesty here?
Good.
You see you're part of the international scene whether you realize it or not.
So non-governmental organizations.
And then even within  two of you mentioned the European Commission, now the Commission is of course a part of what's nown now known as the European Union  erm it's a particular branch but even within the broader framework, parts can play an important role erm within international affairs and the Commission has a particular role, not just within the European Union, but of course in international affairs generally.
The negotiations for the GATT agreement, the general oh er what, what does GATT mean?
General 
Very good.
The General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade.
It was negotiated on behalf of the European Community, as it then was, by  who led the negotiation?
Leon Brittan, absolutely right, and he was representing the Commission, yes.
Yes and then of course you get business organizations, the  and much business is now internationally based, we've, we recognize this recently from the erm the purchase of Rover by B M W erm but of course the big companies have operated for long across international boundaries, whether it be oil companies like Texaco or chemical companies like I C I erm or MacDonalds, you know one of the symbols that erm lets you know Russia had been opened up to the international community was the erm presence of a MacDonalds' erm shop in Moscow.
Anybody been to Moscow?
Did you go to Macdonalds?
No, well it is one of the sights as  you know but erm  I'm sure you heard about it when you were there didn't you?
Yes.
Right erm well I hope I've covered most of the range of things that come.
Now let me push on a bit and erm I won't ask you to write this down, but when we, we've been talking about the state  now what are the characteristics of the state?
Well first of all the state has geographical boundaries, that is you enter a state  whether it be Fiji or the United States, as I mentioned before, by crossing a boundary.
Now the boundary may be a sea boundary, it may be land boundary, it may be an air boundary  because the states claim a control over erm particular physical structures.
The land boundaries are probably the easiest of all.
When you cross the Rhine you can, in some places, you can cross from France to Germany, it's a very clear one.
Erm sea boundaries are now a bit more complex because the law of the sea has been changing erm over recent decades.
There is an i a concept of territorial water, that is the water which surrounds a particular state erm is controlled by that state and falls within the laws of that state.
Erm there used to be an agreed area of three miles then it went to twelve miles but that's now in question because of the different ways in which the sea has been developed.
Erm if you  have, if you envisage the sea  this is the top, I'm not a great artist as you can see but you, things er  here's my boat sailing on the top of the sea, well there's laws related to that erm when does a boat, for example, enter territorial waters, come within your law.
There's also erm, that's a fish swimming in the sea, there's also a law related to fishing, as I mentioned before.
There's also erm attempts at regulation related to what lies on the sea bed because in some parts of the oceans there are valuable mineral deposits lying on the sea bed.
Who owns them?
Much of it is in the middle of the Pacific, you see, which used to be a common area  but the only people who could, at the moment, have the technology to tap those resources are the very advanced states so there is a dispute about the right to develop those or not.
And then there is underneath the sea bed, which has been very important for the United Kingdom because of the great oil and gas resources which we found and if you had had er more limited erm concepts of the

So now we're being recorded.
All very exciting I hope they can hear us.
So if we can have some good examples of the English language please.
Okay.
Up to now we've been covering one part of the neural networks.
Erm in fact we only cov covered one part of one network in fact.
Er that a form of continuous network er because it has continuous weights.
Vari lot of variations in different sorts of neural networks.
We've had different sorts of weights difference sorts of inputs and learning rules as you'll see.
What I want to cover now is a type of network that we study a lot in the computer architecture group and I've been working with for years and years and years erm called the N tuple network.
N tuple method.
It in neural network terms is a binary weighted.
It means that the weights are typically binary in the network.
So you can also use lots of different learning rules compar compared to the er networks you see.
Quite different.
However even though it is a neural network however, erm you can see it is a pack recognition technique and in fact it was first developed in nineteen fifty nine as the N tuple method er by some chap  Browning erm I think   cos I've never heard of Browning since that paper.
So what I want to do is to introduce the basic idea of what the learning  does and how the network sort of works underne underneath it.
And then show how you represent it as a neural network and the various flavours of it.
Straight off why it's more important or why it's important to tell you about it is because it's a very fast network.
All the other networks we see, I think the networks we've seen not many of them are slow in learning.
And they're slow in learning because they optimize er using this learning rule.
Exactly where the surface has to be.
The N tuple method takes a totally different approach as you will see.
So how's it work?
Well it's extremely simple and if you're any good at digital electronics it should be an absolute doddle for you.
Cos in fact it's erm can be seen er as creating functions in digital circuits.
In very simple terms.
One of the reasons for its speed comes from that.
So we've got some examples here of some patterns that we want to learn using the N tuple method and tuple and tuple.
Erm example there of T. You'll recognize the T. Now the first thing I should remind you is of course that to recognize anything we must have something to compare it against.
Okay to say how similar it is to one thing to another.
I've talked to you about that before.
But anyway we're just picking one particular example here and we've got a T. And it's a very small er example of a pattern.
It's got three bytery pixels and the first thing you notice is the pixels are binary.
They're not continuous.
And in the N tuple method as it's first defined the er pixels were only binary.
It's called the N tuple method is because the first thing we do is to take that image and break it up into a set of tuples each of N in size.
Okay?
And what we've got N here we've selected as three and so we've broken it up into three tuples because another rule in the method even though it can be broken is that each pixel can only go into one tuple.
So we've got the first one here F one second one here F two and the third one F three.
Okay.
Once you've done that what we actually do is to look for for sub-patterns in those tuples.
Of course we've got the training and testing the same as in normal networks.
The training is of recording which sub-patterns occur or which patterns occur within the tuple.
Testing consists of identifying which of the known ones which of the known er sub-patterns er occur in my new input.
Let's just see an example of that.
F one here is this sub-pattern here for this training example.
We've got not X one not X two not X three and I think on your examples you've actually got them labelled.
Erm which means that each one of those is off.
The logical er function there determinately simple.
F two the second tuple X four is on X five is off X six is on and the same sort of thing for F three there.
So what we've done is we've applied a simple learning rule which just says remember the sub-patterns.
Terribly trivial.
And you wonder how it would ever be any good at anything.
So that's what I hope to show you.
Once you've trained it like that to test it on this pattern all you do is take the pack into the system and see whether you can  
these tuples again.
So here we'd actually have a match of all three saying that we've recognized it to a level three.
Okay erm on that particular pattern.
Now as it stands that's all it knows.
And if if this was covered up here I E this this black dot was say made white let's say, we'd only have two matching and if that was made white we'd have one and then if we changed at all that top row we'd have zero matching.
So what we can what it effectively does is count sort of sub-patterns within the whole pattern and how well we're recognizing those.
It's rather like what we talked about right at the beginning we talked about picking out features from our image such as the the width the height er the grey area or whatever of the image.
Now in that case we had to select those measures er by knowledge of the problem.
A tuple is a very similar sort of thing.
It it's a it's a measurement area here for example, but all it does is record the binary pattern er under that area.
We've actually taken three measurement areas.
One here one in the middle one at the bottom.
The important thing is that they're very arbitrary.
You you don't have to know anything about the problem to specify them.
Where we're taking measures from the image er such as height width etcetera we'd have to know a lot about the image to take those measures.
The important thing about the N tuple method is that you don't make any assumptions about the image apart from it's just a set of binary digits.
Okay.
Which is one of the the strengths of course for that sort of thing.
So what we're doing effectively is seeing how many features we recognize in our in our er example image.
Generalization which we'll come to a lot later as well in a lot more depth er is very important in these  systems.
I may want to recognize this pattern as well as that pattern.
But I may want to recognize that just as well as that.
I E at the moment this pattern fed into these functions here gives us three matching functions.
If we add an extra term to the bottom of here representing this extra changed pattern okay? this pattern will match just as well as that er our functions.
I E this one gives us a a value of three.
So really that's it as far as the N tuple method is.
You're just measuring sub sub-patterns of the image counting how many of those match in training in testing and that count is a measure of similarity.
You can think about it and it's very useful to think about it as a as a distance measure in a sense.
It's a very complex distance measure compared to the ones we've looked at.
But it is a distance measure.
Cos this whole function plus the summation of of how many terms match is a measure of how similar our unknown pattern is er to all our known ones that we've trained the system on.
But it's rather strange and er certainly not  distance measure but it is a it is a measure.
And of course the whole thing is very easy to compute.
Really after the N tuple method was defined in nineteen fifty nine erm the next person who came along that did anything with it was Igor Alexander  supervisor that's why I work on this area.
Got a lot to blame to blame for I must admit.
What he did he saw he saw the method and saw well this is quite neat.
We can actually implement it very efficiently in hardware.
We can made a very fast recognition system out of it.
What we've got here is a very conventional piece of logic that implements what I've talked about.
We've got two tuples so I've given the example again we've got two tuples of two  two one here and one here.
We'd have other ones as well but just to show this particular example just to keep it small I'll make it small.
We then have binary decoders.
And as you know binary decoders list all the possible states of the input erm conditions.
So here we've got binary inputs to there must be two to the two outputs I E four possible combinations.
And here's the truth table for this particular decoder.
Okay?
And these you should remember are basically the terms I gave on the previous page.
Same as these terms here except.
So the decoders are actually listing all the possible terms of the inputs.
The memory cells here of course recalled whether that term occurred during training.
So I present this pattern I push it through the decoders and I see that that line's maybe is active so I put a one in there to record the fact that that logic term er occurred.
And similarly for this er decoder down here this section down here.
So training is very easy to implement like that with a few memory cells and a binary decoder.
Recall is similarly very simple you present the input pattern pushing through the decoders and instead of reading from these memory locations, sorry  writing  from these memory locations, you read from them okay.
So in this case you get  this R would  be activated and we access this location here which would be summed into summation to give us our response of well two maybe in this particular case.
And if it actually recognized it.
Okay so we can implement it like that in hardware but the major benefit and this was done sort of like sixties sort of sixty nine seventy was to realize that you could put it into a little package like that which of course is a random access memory.
The tuple lines are the address inputs into your random access memory.
The memory is just the memory the data input stores the one for the address location and the data output stores the output.
And you've gotta rewrite signal to tell you whether it's gotta learn or to recognize the image.
Now here's an interesting story about this er.
Igor Alexander who who as I say recognizes started to build these these little cells these things before random access memories came along.
He called them erm, what were they  something it was.
Something strange like that.
But the point was that random access memories never existed when he first did this.
And he went to Plessey and asked Plessey if he could implement these little functions on micro circuits.
I E sort of er the L S I type circuits.
And he got some packages made but unfortunately he didn't patent the idea  because what he actually was made what he actually made was random access memories.
Erm and had he had he patented it or I don't know about exactly the timing, he might have made himself an absolute fortune.
Not that he was interested particularly but er it's an interesting story.
Erm he did that when he was at erm er now where was it Kent, University of Kent.
Just the strange things that again you know it's it's having an idea and recognizing it that it would be useful.
It's something that er not always happens like in the back propagation learning  and people who invented it didn't realize it was that that important and didn't advertise it.
He invented the random access memory but er didn't tell anybody about it.
Never mind.
Okay so we can implement this sort of thing in er using random access memories.
And as such of course in run load you can make this thing go in the order of tens of nanoseconds probably less to recognize an image.
But as I say every year er if I ever find an application where you need this sort of speed I'd like to hear about it.
Erm there's very few applications that need to recognize anything in that amount of time.
The only small idea that I have and I don't think it's particularly practical is for a sort of oscilloscope triggering mechanism often, which is in fact one you get in logic analysers anyway.
But er often you might want to trigger off a particular pattern coming on the trace.
And you might have to you have to do that in in the order of nanoseconds.
But of course something like this would do that but you have to allow for the jitter as well and this sort of algorithm might might be the way to do it.
I think there are a few others but not many.
So if you implement it totally in parallel you can go very fast.
Typically we don't we implement it in software and even in software it's very quick because computers are ideally set up to implement these sort of systems.
So it's great.
It's the right sort of technology.
We've got the right sort of computer technology to implement these erm we can move out from there into the neural network world.
And of course it's very hard to see this as a neural network.
So we could ask ourselves, well very nice but where does neural networks fit in.
Fact recognition method it's a piece of hardware and one of the things that's clear actually is that er the Alexander worlds and all sorts of other people that were working on this don't look at them in this way and they look at these as I say ram blocks.
Erm as a result they call them weightless networks which we actually hate because they're not weightless.
If you actually represent them like I've just shown you.
You can change the diagram very slightly and they look just like the normal neural network.
In fact it's very much like the higher order networks that I talked about in the last lecture er I think it was the last lecture but one, and the networks which pre-process the data before they're presented to the network by some higher  function.
What you have here is basically a single neuron with a of weights, the weights on the circles here are the binary elements in the random access memory.
The weight you know the storage locations.
The decoders here are just non-linear functions, they're just binary non-linear functions they happen to be but they're non-linear.
Now if we recognize it as that we immediately see that the method is, well why the method works in neural network terms.
If you remember a single  network is a linear classifier and can't solve non-linearly sol soluble problems.
To get round that one of the approaches that I talked about was to pre-process the data.
I E or formalize it in some way.
Force it through some some functions.
So that's what these decoders do.
Er such that it is hopefully linearly separable.
Now one of the problems over all that is to say, well is it?
How can can it always solve the problem?
Well it can't it doesn't always solve the problem.
In fact recognition you don't have to guarantee that you will solve the problem.
Because even though this is a this is a linear network it can be effectively seen as a network effectively with a unit here and a unit here and maybe one weight.
If it was seen like that you can't actually solve a erm a linear problem which occurs between these two sets of units.
You will see that in a second but there are limitations with it.
Erm which are okay for fact recognition but not so good for more sorts of analysis problems.
But we'll see that in a second.
Okay so you can view it as a as a single neuron with some er decoders .
The other important thing is that the learning rule is not a graded descent learning rule or a searching lear learning rule as we've seen before.
Remember what we do with the network normally is to present an input get an output see if it's correct.
If it is correct we don't do anything and if it isn't correct we use that error to adjust the weights.
Now here we've got binary weights.
So it's either setting or not setting the weights and in the N tuple rule all we do is in fact set the weights.
So we present the pattern.
We could test it to see if we get an output, we don't but we could do, there's no need because all we have to do in effect is just set the weights of the decoders that are actually coming out.
But the decoders that are the decoder lines that are active.
Sometimes that learning method is called the Hebean learning rule erm because it's the sort of thing you find in animals erm Donald  a famous what was he a famous neurophysiologist.
He came up with this how neurons actually did learn.
By the way neuron I haven't said that but the the  learning rule is n is not biologically plausible.
And a lot of learning rules aren't biologically plausible.
Erm this happens to be as well.
as an aside.
For a multi class problem where you've got more than one neuron more than one class you might display the system like this.
It's a slightly different way of looking at neuron networks than perhaps we've seen before.
Because we have this matrix here.
But what we've effectively got is a neuron here a neuron here and a neuron here and we've got our three classes.
And we pre-process the data as I say commonly for all the neurons before we present it to our three neurons.
Testing for these sort of systems erm we had to decide which of these responses is best.
Well as you see we can count the number of terms that actually match from our training sets.
So this example here we might find that that matches that matches we get a response of two from here and we get a response less than the response from here and the same response from this.
We have to make a decision on those responses just like in a normal network.
Now we could just take the pattern of responses out of there as being some  classes.
You can do what you like really.
Erm but the easiest one is obviously to take the maximum responding output from here as er an indication of which class is belongs to.
Okay so that's er a very straightforward sort of thing.
The other thing you should remember is that there are all sorts of confidences that you can apply to these sort of things.
That if we had a response here of two one zeros I've scored at the bottom of that, we've actually got two of the logic terms matching from this particular class.
One of the logic terms matching from this particular class and none for this particular class.
How well how how sure are we of this result here.
Well we're too sure aren't we.
We're saying that we've got two of our our particular sub-patterns matching.
Cos we've got a response of two.
Here we've got one.
So we might say, Well our overall confidence is two but our relative confidence which is saying how different it is from everything else is only one.
And you actually do get two types of of of threshold erm confidence in these sort of systems.
There's this absolute confidence which is the absolute output of maximum responding neuron.
Then there's the relative confidence which is to say how much stronger is that particular output compared to any others.
And both of those factors can be important in judging how the system's doing.
Okay that basic architecture is if you want the vanilla sort of architecture for the entrical stuff.
Erm there are a lot of variations upon it which er make it interesting and we'll see later also how the thing actually does work and all its properties.
The variations to the system come in a number of forms.
First of all that the input can be grey scale of course instead of binary.
So how does the system cope with that.
Well we've only got binary decoders here so we have to cope we have to change something.
maybe we change the decoders maybe we change the inputs.
There's a whole section of how we do that.
These this array of weights is binary.
Well we could have continuous weights in that particular array possibly.
What what benefit would that do for us.
Of course it it screws up the implementation er if you want to implement in hardware and these aren't binary weights it starts to make the the circuitry a bit more complicated.
The third thing is in this summation function, why do we use a summation function.
I mean in the neural network terms we just use a summation function.
But we should ask ourselves why are we using that and what's the effect of using other functions in there such as maybe an and or an or where we or the responses out of here or we an them.
Because now we've got a binary network we can do different things.
It's the equivalent to in a neural network saying instead of saying the weights times the inputs all summed, we'll take each weight times its input and multiply it with each weight times its input so we do the product of all the inputs times the weights.
Erm what effect would that have.
And that's interesting to see in pattern recognition terms.
Really that brings out one of the benefits of of using this sort of network because you can analyse it.
You can look right into it and you can actually find out the behaviour of it fully.
You can see how well it generalizes you can see how well you can implement it.
Which is nice.
Okay I think you've got a corrected slide here.
Erm this is my attempt at a formal definition of the network.
Erm it helps you if you want to work out exactly how it works and work through it.
This is not the corrected version you've got the corrected version.
Erm and through this we can see where the different variations come in the system and introduce one or two other ones.
What we've got also is indicated a bit of how we might process it if we implement this sort of thing.
The sort of implementations we've got.
We've got an input pattern.
Okay we've got er example P, er sorry class example P plus R. We've got a T vector which is basically after you've taken the input pattern just after you've tupled it.
So we take our input pattern and we produce a vector here called T which we then present to this lot here.
We've got a weight array which is the normal sort of thing we'd have.
Training is a simple p simple algorithm this is how you would actually implement it properly.
I mean it introduces a an interesting thing.
What we'd effectively do which  code, what effectively do of course is we we trundle down here checking to see if any of these are set to one and if they are set to one we set a weight in memory.
Now if you're gonna be writing in software you don't actually look at it like that maybe and it is also a useful way to generalize these decoders.
What these decoders actually do is take the input and assign one of four particular states.
Where a state is whatever the particular sub-pattern is on here.
Now if you view the output of these as a state number you can generalize the the behaviour of these decoders and you can generalize them to anything you want.
It could be an X square function that produces a number which indicates which line you should activate.
That's really how this is written down here.
You go through all the example patterns.
For each the example pattern you compute er this input tuple vector.
So we take our example we put it through these decoders.
Before we do this we have to apply a mapping function M. The mapping function is important because as I say these wires are connected to these pixels here.
I must know exactly how those are connected in which order.
But as we'll see later the different sort of connections that you have er affect the behaviour of it.
Er if you get the connections wrong er sometimes it won't recognize it.
So this mapping function is quite crucial in in the operation.
So you map it onto the tuple array and then all the tuples so you take each tuple in in order.
You set the weight one sorry the weight, it's probably it's it's hard to explain it like that, but you apply the decoder function F here F bracket to the particular tuple and you get a state J. So you set the weight for that particular state.
W R I J, there's a J there there's a J there okay.
So effectively we take our input pattern we take our tuple we force is through our function here we get our value out sum value of of the tuple and that's J and that indicates within the weight array that we're looking at which weight we actually set.
Funny way of looking at it I know but it's sort of to give you an idea of how how the different ways you can actually do this this mechanism and brings out the er variations.
Lots of ways of writing it.
Testing is the same sort of thing but this brings out the different functions that I talked about either summations or or products.
Do the same sort of thing you need a response array first for the result.
In this case we've got an unknown pattern.
We do exactly the same mapping our input pattern onto our tuples.
We then apply our tupling function F to get J and then we sum for all tuples over all states the weights times the inputs.
A very strange way of writing it again but basically it comes down to the following.
As I say we take our tuple push it through our decoder and get our state here J that's the easy bit.
But why write it like this.
Cos what we're doing is going for each N tuple we go through each set of states here.
Mathematically it's very difficult to do this.
You could use a chronic adulter to actually write it a bit easier but er I didn't know about that when I wrote these slides many many years ago and it's carried on since.
Er we write it like this.
Erm so you actually scan down here and where you, which is abetting the state act from here, is one you set the weight in the memory.
A horrible way of explaining it but er it's some attempt at some some preciseness.
Okay.
As I say the variations on the system are alteration of this summation in here to a product or .
And having that mathematical description allows us to change that from summing all the N tuple to doing a product of all N tuple.
What that basically means again is that for this particular blank here that we're look at okay, the state value U might be one the weight might be one okay and we get that out of that cos we're just going through all these here and seeing which one's going to be one.
We then instead of adding those particular outputs we don't we we sum them.
Don't forget that each of these decoders only produces one ac active output line okay.
So in this case this one might be active corresponding to that weight there that that makes that whole ban bank set to one.
This bank might be set to one as well or zero and then you sum those together which is that summation there, or you can do a product there's a product there.
Basically a product is equivalent to an and.
A product is a continuous form of an and.
We'll see what what the benefit of of that is in generalizationship in a second.
What I've put down here is the way you alter that simple description to give you a continuous weight rather than a binary weight.
During training what we do in the training algorithm is is of course set a a link here or a weight here to one if the output of my decoder is set to one.
Okay that's easy.
In a continuous form instead of just setting a binary link here we actually count the number of times this particular line is set to one.
Basically what we're doing is to count during training how often a sub-pattern a tuple has a particular state has a particular pattern.
And that's very useful in sort of more statistical type problems er as we'll see later.
So basically what that's done is introduce the variations of the letters.
I'm gonna go through each one of those sort of variations in a bit more depth er later on.
But er I hope to give you an idea for that.
So let's have a look at it and see how it works.
I mean the basic mechanism is very simple as I say.
First thing we want to have a look at is how it generalizes.
As I say the method has got to recognize things it hasn't seen before.
Like with all neural networks.
Now normal neural networks perform generalizations by, okay having some space yep? having our examples here and our examples here and maybe setting a line in between that.
Such that any new example one down here can be seen as being belonging to that set okay?
Now thinking about what we've just seen how does that relate to that.
Very difficult.
We've got our single layer network as we know so we take all our inputs we push them through the decoders and we've got our single layer after that.
But there is a straight line in there somewhere.
But we do this pre-processing.
Now the pre-processing makes the patterns makes the thing linearly soluble.
So if we add an example using the N tuple technique of the exclusive or problem for example er like that we want to see how the network would solve that okay in terms of a single layer network.

Well, I wanted, basically to  determine cereals, with the main ones.
Sorry.
The main, the two main ones there.
Yeah.
Different cereals, presume yours are old and er,
It seems to be er,
What, how, bearing in mind we're after ten er, ten horses and fifteen  how many, erm, how many would you let us have,
Well  the maximum
Certainly,
Yeah.
Erm, I mean, horses, probably have two horses.
I think we're gonna 
This is good news, we can actually let you have all the cows.
We've actually got quite a good er cow stock ourselves.
Are you sure he give fifty notes.
Yeah, he did.
Yeah, effectively.
Positive.
Look at this.
within one or two.
Did he.
Depends who er, need to discuss that.
Yeah, I'll send him round nearer the time, I think.
Well, erm, well obviously we've got some, as you know, we've got the timber all the material.
Yeah.
We could certainly erm, we could certainly address some of your needs in that respect, but erm, not all.
Erm, so effectively, it's a, we'll be negotiating without a balancing of horses and  on our part.
Mhm.
Erm, timber and materials, timber and materials on your part.
And you don't want my cows.
Er, we'll certainly be er after some of your cows, yes.
But er,
We could throw in quite a lot of er, extra manure.
Yeah, I mean our crops actually work better with horse manure, erm, then they do with er cow manure.
The thing is we gotta got a slight problem in the transport
back Isle of Mann  a certain number of years.
Yeah, it's the same with our blokes, erm, so I mean, we're perfectly willing to help.
Yeah.
If you would with us on the point of transport.
Yeah.
That's not a problem.
So rea realistically, really, erm, bearing in mind we can't satisfy your need, your full need for ten cereals and fifteen timbers.
Yeah.
I mean, what are we sort of, what arrangement are we working within.
Well,
Fingers crossed.
Yeah, what, no, tell us, what's the maximum amount of timber you could theoretically give us  on a good day.
Well, on a good day, erm, we could give you ten.
Yeah.
But that's it, on a good day we could give you ten only, and we couldn't give you any more.
Basically we've only got ten.
Right.
And we can't give you any over five horses.
Are you sure?
Positive.
So you're saying, you've got five horses and ten 
Yeah.
On account.
And we can give you on account.
Which was?
I'm buying.
Ah, right.
Mm.
Presumably you can give us, either fifteen or twenty.
Ten.
Yeah.
We can certainly give you ten.
He wants to make an offer on our cereals.
Maybe we shouldn't have had them, and left our horses to five.
Yeah, I mean, we, we, we couldn't, certainly couldn't give you any more than five.
Right.
So basically, we can give you ten  for ten timber and 
Five cereal.
And five cereal for five horses, basically.
much as that.
What about er, fruit and veg.
five pounds 
Is there any chance of getting five veg and five fruit?
Mm.
What was the maximum number of cows you could let us have?
We could let you have five.
Five.
Isn't there a figure higher than that?
What we could do.
Yeah.
No.
We could give you five.
Give you ten sheep.
We could also give you some coal.
Yeah,suppose to be reporting to industries in coal power, power station,No.
wool and fibres makes you 
yes.
Eight comes to mind.
No, no no.
Eight horses, maximum of ten horses, maximum of five cows.
Ten horses.
Ten horses.
Sorry, sorry, sorry Ten ten horses, ten horses that you need.
We can give you a maximum of five horses.
Five horses and five cows.
How many cows of sheep.
Oh, you said  sheep.
Can't spare the sheep.
We don't want sheep.
I still think we're falling  short of what we need.
Mm.
Erm,you interested in our veg and fruit.
Yeah.
Erm, if we were willing to throw that into the pot,
Mhm.
Erm, would you reconsider the offers you made on the horses in the offer.
How much, if we definitely decided 
Oh it's an attractive amount.
We can.
Oh, do you now.
The sheep are very attractive.
We can't, we can't give you, we can't give you more than five horses on  I think I think sheeps out of the bargain anyway, because we're both, sounds that we both got an over supply of the sheep.
Mm.
I can't give you a pound.
It's all I've got.
Oh.
But we wouldn't agree that erm, the lives the livestock is negotiable now.
negotiating livestock 
cereals of five.
The maximum we can lay is five, yeah.
And apparently  cereal.
So you want to, in respect of us offering you sort of fruit and veg into the bargaining, is er,
Make you change the horses.
we can't change the horses.
Can't not that we won't.
We can't do, we can't 
What, do you only have five horses?
Well  no, right.
But we need something to power of appeals.
Yeah, but we don't need, er
to society.
Would be easing, so to speak  in sort of units of horses or electricity.
Okay, if  plough the fields, if we were to supply you with erm, fruit and veg, erm, obviously that would,some of  for you to plough the fields, in which case you would have more to to offer us.
Mm.
I mean, she coped nicely because, providing we maintain a breeding stock of horses, cows and sheep, we can perhaps help you out a little bit more on that  if you could erm, help us some more on the timber.
Mm.
Because  as well.
Okay, if you're interested in it.
So what what how, what could you increase the horse quantity to.
I think probably be seven  horses.
Would you reckon eight.
I really anticipated breeding  two horses, to keep a breeding stock.
to breed.
I think think, we'd want, you know for that, we'd want to push the two, you know your offer of ten,erm,
Okay, we we wouldn't settle for seven horses, then.
For
We've 
Okay, we'd be willing to up the the, be willing to up the ten to twelve.
Mm.
I working on the training timber directly for horses, and then talk about cereal 
So 
We'll exchange your seven horses for twelve of our timbers, and we'll throw in a quantity of barrels, I think.
Barrels?
Barrels.
Barrels.
What empty barrels,
In which to store your oil, because of the heated 
having transported  
Excellent idea.
Er, forget out it.
I mean, I mean I'm in charge 
To be honest, empty barrels just take up space on the 
Mm.
Yeah.
We could possibly, could probably, er we could, say, we could probably give you fifteen 
All your own,
Mhm.
If you forget the horses for a minute.
Mhm.
We could give you fifteen  if you want your timber to maximum.
I think your your priorities obviously  well, okay, it's it's pulse  
Horses are my life , and they're the two priorities 
So we, say we give you  horses,
Mhm.
Could you give us say, fifteen in timber and  and we both reduce the 
We still need, we still need some fruit and veg, but er, I don't see that being a problem, you know.
We'd strike a bargain at erm, at twelve to timber and seventeen  we're after.
What about the er fruit and veg?
Erm.
Couple of units each of those?
Yeah, we can throw in a couple of units each of those .
So, let's just summarise.
So you'll give us twelve timber, two materials, two veg and two fruit.
Mhm.
We will give you seven horses, fifteen oil
Five cans.
Five cans.
Well let's take it or leave it.
Any chance of you giving us another five units of something.
And a jack-pot.
Well, I'm giving you a total of er twenty-seven units.
You're giving us a total of  twenty-three.
And we're giving you boats to transport it.
We'll we'll be we'll be, we'll be willing to give you.
Well, you haven't said that, yet, have you?
I think  transport being the problem.
You could say we should agree with our sums.
That's fine.
But erm, we do seem to be coming out a little bit light.
Okay, how many units we go after?
Well, we've  I would like  we're basically giving you all your cow requirement and all your oil requirement.
Yeah.
We're getting not all our timber requirement and, not all our cereal requirement, no.
We're getting 
So what what, if we can erm, three more timber.
We can't.
I don't think we can erm, talk about timber and cereal or be willing to up the  
Compensate with a little bit of extra veg and fruit.
Would you give us all all our requirement for veg and fruit.
What would you need?
Or would that be impossible.
Three, three of each.
Three.
Three of each.
Yeah.
No, another three of each 
Yeah.
So you want five of each, like.
And then we'll give you  and seven horses.
It's not really interesting 
Okay.
Right.
Okay.
So let's  you're getting fifteen oil,
Yeah.
seven horses, five cows.
Mhm.
We're getting five veg, five fruit, twelve timber and what's it seven 
So you've got a surplus of  we're giving,units.
Yes.
Erm.
manure if they're 
Manure?
Yeah.
throw in a, after a bucket load of manure.
What's a bucket load?
It's about as much as you can carry.
Erm.
Want some sheep, they're not expensive.
No, we don't want sheep.
Don't want sheep, do we?
No.
we'll have the manure.
Yeah.
I don't want any sheep.
up to their necks.
Okay, we'll take our own couple of units, couple of units.
Couple of units.
And we'll be alright.
Right, er, we need er, we need  thirteen units of pole stakes, because we've only got sixt , you've given us twenty nine units.
We want sixteen units of pole stakes.
Right.
So you either either sell back to our sixteen units of poles and let us stay the night, or come back again tomorrow.
Oh.
It's an imposition.
Oh, right, sorry, right.
We can help you shut yourself over if you don't want to 
Yeah, that's basically.
I believe  two journeys, so we've got to come to you  vice-versa, so I think  
Well if you've got if you've got sixteen units of space, if you come over with effectively, sixteen units of your, you know, agree to supply us with.
Yeah.
Erm, then you can take sixteen of our  units in your boat and we'll take the surplus, which is   I imagine two of our boats, erm, if we come over with all three, effectively, which is twenty-one, if you can, of ours.
Making us a space to come back again.
Yeah.
Mm.
I dont see why that's 
Yeah 
Which won't mean that  sixteen units .
So if we send two boats over,
Mm.
We then asked them to  already booked.
So do you have all you want, know.
Erm, no, but we're ready to settle on what we've got.
Same here.
Mm.
Where where abouts are you short?
Well, obviously we would have liked a erm a lot more oil, oil, we got the oil, ain't we, the horses 
Yeah, the horses.
But erm.
So you got seven horses.
Mm.
Got enough to get us by.
Yeah, we've got it all  no problem.
Yeah.
Pleas pleasure doing business with you.
The pleasure was ours, entirely.
I'm afraid the tide has now turned, and er, this negotiation will have to come to an end.
There are some friends who are a get who get drowned, whichever ones that travel, so.
Thank you for your negotiation.
In terms of sort of feedback, with er, in the er, provisional way, of  
Sort of 
Yeah.
Okay, let's start with the objectives.
What sort of things were you
Hoping to get out of that negotiation?
Perhaps we'll start with  and then we'll ask .
What was some of the things you were after  from that negotiation.
We knew what our  were, were something like what they're they're requirements were.
Okay.
So you had minimums, maximums
Yeah.
For each item.
Mm.
There, and you want to ascertain their requirements.
Mhm.
Any other objectives 
Some negotiating with achieving some compromise at the end of the day.
Okay, so to negotiate and achieve some sort of compromise   what are your objectives?
Er, what, we didn't get a discussion, what we decided was erm, because it was in negotiation 
Right.
So I would be best to lay lay down the law straight away, what we needed, and what we didn't need.
Right.
Erm,we knew exac we knew what we wanted, what we got.
Right.
We thought that's the only thing  possible, and flexible as possible.
Right.
Because  at once, that we we intend to satisfy  okay.
So we could have sold, like  have the cereals and the timber.
So that, there was some key objectives within that, some more important issues, that concerned the others.
Okay.
Can I ask generally, how did you feel at the end of that negotiations.
Did you both feel you got what you wanted, got more than you wanted, less than you wanted.
We didn't get what we wanted, obviously.
Right.
Got  top line maybe.
Got more than the bottom line.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So some satisfaction of the outcome.
Mhm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you were somewhere between the top and the bottom line again on this 
Yeah.
This negotiation.
There's something, there's something 
Sorry.
Perhaps we had, or we had no idea what they had to offer.
Yeah.
Right, okay.
So you felt you were probably nearer the top line, than than the bottom line.
Perhaps not trying, probably probably knew.
Because if you did, there's no 
top line.
shot myself first.
We did, we did, sort of, with only the horses, erm, so we lost out that way.
Obviously they couldn't give us 
I mean, some of these  who could be passed round to see, to get the size, but some of these, in fact the grand total does not equal by the teams needs, in courses that's why they are unsuccessful.
In fact, fifteen horses, was it fifteen horses 
Er, yeah.
Yeah.
sacrifice the horses.
Sorry ten horses.
Ten horses available.
Fifteen needed.
So some of those are items you can't satisfy what you need, anyway, so it's gonna obviously have to be, somebody's got to go and satisfy some of those.
But look at the negotiation you did, what were you doing well, what were some of the things that you needed most strength.
We were gonna have, if both sides knew that it was mutual benefit, we would handle, say, furniture.
Right.
What do you think to establish that?
How do you establish that?
Erm,
Well, the initial boundaries,
Yeah.
you know the openings,
Well, I I suggested to  so.
Right.
I think you're right, we were saying a little bit earlier, that.
At the outset, some things are bit like a first round of a sparing match.
Didn't come across like that, I think,
There may well be because of that.
Right.
Well, let's let's have class three on the table, and the  on is, erm,
Yes, but we decided that we would ask them what, they could offer us first, or what they wanted, that is.
Right.
Before we actually 
Put your cards on the table.
For our part we wanted to know what they wanted, first.
So that was a deliberate strategy, in fact, they did it early anyway.
Yeah, that's right.
Okay.
So it was never been an honest sort of work relationship, from the outset.
So that's working well.
What else?
That's working well.
Okay, I think you both recognise that we're gonna have to make, but we realise it then, in the case of horses there are only ten possible,
Yes.
And fifteen were needed.
Right.
So we would have have to make sacrifices in some respects.
Right, so you recognised early on, that you would have to make a move for some of the stances that you wanted.
So there's er, there's er an important movement, actually.
Yes.
Any other things, see you doing well.
We actually saw alternatives  to what we were after.
We could sacrifice, ought to get rid of some of the horses, and the cows and, we were quite willing to throw in the sheep, because that would reduced only to cereals,
Right.
In the hope of perhaps pushing up the timber and the fruit and veg.
Right.
I mean, there were certainly elements of creativity, I think, there's was at the beginning, I heard about coal fire stations.
That was me.
Yes.
I mean, there are plenty of options with this station, including, in fact, you could actually float the timber across, you don't actually carry it on the boat, you tie it to the back and float it across.
Same with your barrels, if you want to transport barrels.
Maybe get your horses to swim across.
All those sort of things, that are maybe options, creative options, the ways round it, linking issues together.
Maybe you find a new  Any others?
Strengths.
Things that are working well.
Right, the actually, yeah
the effectual record within negotiations.
Can I just check out, how do you think  roles within the teams.
We both erm, needed a spokesperson.
Right.
Chief spokesperson here, another chief spokesperson there.
Yes.
Any other roles you'd delegate?
In fact, that was only done as I walked through the door.
There was something I saw, and I don't know whether it was deliberate or not.
Erm, but take this team, there was somebody feeding information into the slowest person,
Mm.
They were actually say, no we can't do that, or yes we can do that.
Erm, that may or may not have been deliberate, but it's very important, particularly within a group, erm of people in negotiation, who were clear about roles, and when I was out on the road, I used to occasionally take the  out, and I'd go and see my broker and erm, I'd say, oh we love to do fish and chip shops, we love insuring fish and chip shops.
And the  sort of had a blue fit, and sort of say, no we don't, and very quickly you've got to mixed message.
If you're not clear about the roles, and who gonna say what, you can end up actually totally competing each other.
Anything else that we 
Erm, no.
So, save a lot of things going to  areas that you might do different then.
Limitations.
Areas 
I don't know if it's a limitation, but it's certainly a weakness that I didn't trust, trust them, that's what they were saying, they surprised.
So you actually found yourself not trusting what was going on.
Even now, I don't know, I don't, you just said that there's stuff  finance survive.
It doesn't matter.
No, until you said that, I still didn't, didn't trust them.
Poor Tim.
I'm sure you trust  
I'll cover you.
Were you aware that you weren't trusted.
Yes.
Yes.
in what way?
A bit pushy with the horses, you know, are you sure you can't, you know.
Yeah.
It's this sort of thing, I, well I'm sure you said that.
And get quite  didn't you say, eight horses or something,fifteen.
Okay, so you felt, didn't trust them, they were were aware that you weren't trusting them.
How do you think that helps under negotiation.
Can't do anything.
Right.
What would you do differently in the future?
Try and get more trust in the outset.
I bet you you reach a certain stage where, you realise I don't trust you, which  
I suppose we could have asked him outright, how many have they got , and how many we need.
Yeah, I mean, it could have been done with real honesty, but  
Mm.
But then we still wouldn't have known.
Well, that's right.
the specific answer or not 
But is it driving a business.
They got what they wanted, they got.
decide that.
I mean, you could have asked the same about us, on a lot of things.
And it maybe about a relationship that will build up with these people over a period of time and I know it's expensive as negotiation.
You think about salesmen who've got ongoing relationship with their client.
It maybe faithful for a long time, perhaps you build up that trust, and it's only once you've got beyond that, that you can then begin to actually influence er, negotiate with them.
I think would have probably, had more, if we'd had more time and reversed all  and been clearer on our roles.
Right.
So that when they said, are you sure you've only got x number of horses.
We would have said, well, of course we have, because of, you know, we would had reasons and facts
Mm.
Perhaps to back that up.
Albeit lies, but  convincing.
Right.
So you reckon if you had more time to think about an overall, sort of, web, if you like, of
Deceit.
deceits 
Well, now you've put the words in my mouth,convincing lies, that is a ringer, I mean, nothing but the truth.
I'm sure it matters 
Yeah, I think you're right, but I think you had certainly time there  enabled those to be dealt with more effectively.
Any other areas, didn't do so well.
We really needed a bit more of an introduction.
Erm, another day, when you tried to set some, and we were all dying, and we kept carry on going, but we could have said somebody would on to each other, or whatever 
Mm.
Sort of, priorities.
This perhaps ties into to that one a bit as well.
It's about the rapport, it's about the introduction, it's about how we actually settle the thing from the outset.
Yeah.
Anything else.
A little bit more when somebody said to me.
Yes,
You said welcome to, wherever it was  you know, we thought you came to us.
Yes, but that's deliberately set up, that is.
To get you to work at that.
We see when we're introducing  negotiation.
If you're giving things away, give things away of low value to you, but of high value to them.
Were there any things that were given away, that might be of high value to the opposition, given away for less than nothing.
Fruit and veg.
Fruit and veg, might be one example.
There's another one as well, and it was actually from this side, given away, but wasn't received by this side.
Barrels.
Yeah, the barrels, I mean, of of no value, I think to, a layman
because 
Craftsmen are experts in making barrels from the wood of trees, you have the use of barrels, except for storing the oil, you now have a large quantity of barrels available.
I think we  oil,so we didn't want them.
Right.
We're seeping 
Oh, right.
I think, this group  but we don't want to attack it.
Don't want them, it actually lowers
Mm.
The value to this team.
Erm, I can't remember what happened at the end, if you were tempted to the barrel as well.
No, we didn't.
In fact, you probably needed some barrels, and I'm sure  or were given away.
It's gett , it's thinking about, you know, barrels, yeah, well everyone is giving them away.
Perhaps your  was thinking.
See, we'd given away all our oil, so we didn't need any barrels, and they were aware that the oil was a storage problem.
Yeah.
But there wasn't  normally storage problems,normally had spare,seep out of the ground in, so we'll be alright.
Okay.
In terms of the sort of, negotiation, were there any stages, when people were not telling you about 
It got a bit confusing, writing it all down.
Yeah.
And trying to  and see who was winning it and who was losing, you know, what the score was.
Right.
Three more units 
You know, we don't eat  confuse  would it.
Come on, see what you  a bit.
I don't think 
Certainly  confused about, is how many horses 
Yes, that was 
our side.
We we started off ten, aw, ten,
Right, so I think, on some occasions there was some confusion, although towards the end, it was certainly quite 
Yeah, we do summarise where, what the mistake was.
Yes.
And see if there was any further room.
Certainly I think there were summaries in that note 
Yeah, it was difficult for  to be negotiating and to keep up with where we were.
Mm.
Right.
Yes.
Yeah.
Because it's going along so fast.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, there were a couple of occasions, when he got a cheap negotiator, other people joined in as well, and then, I don't know, you got three or four different 
All got views as well.
I know it's  something that's particularly welcome here, but it's quite important to think about seeking positions, rather than negotiation, otherwise it's set up in here.
This negotiation.
Space.
It's very them them and us.
Might be worth just thinking about that for me, actually, have a a future negotiation.
When I negotiate this person, they always go and sit across the desk.
Maybe they don't like that.
Maybe that comes in with a hat that says, Authoritarian, disciplined type of interview.
And if I did come and sit face to face across the desk, it would have a discipline.
I think if you were gonna s use any other situation to this, with the quantity of information that you'd have to, to record, as we're going through,
Mm.
Would have to be er probably a lot lower, this would probably be a maximum, because, I felt I needed a bit of time, to just sort of, you know, pass information.
Yeah.
And obviously if you playing cards close to your chest, you need something like this to sort of be able, you know,
Yeah, I mean, that's going, that it's actually quite powerful situations, normally er you got roles worked out, and exactly who's doing what.
At times, I just take a breather, actually stop and say, yeah hang on a minute, let's just walk through and work out what's going on.
Okay, any other sort of areas you'd like to think about for the future.
No.
Not somebody else.
this morning.
this morning.
I think preparation is is quite important.
Yeah.
Erm, we tend to get it  it's just an exercise, but it proved a point that even in twenty minutes we were, we'd only got through only got through to doing ideals,
Right.
or fall-back and realistic, we didn't get any further than that.
Just making it up as we went along.
You're right, erm, certainly an exercise twenty minutes, is about time, special timescale, but again a bit more time, might actually.
Yeah.
Well I I was doing  
Yeah, you gotta be the same.
He used to spend hours 
Yeah, you end up caving in, because you think, oh, I've got a timescale, I've got to do something and actually cave in.
I think, because maybe you haven't been flexible at the outset, and all you've ended up doing is scoring points off each other,
Mm.
for the first nineteen and a half minutes.
Quite like that 
Then again if you're  I think the only thing on that I would say is that,creativity in as a positive, erm, that that your  there are loads of possibilities about how you could actually try and create situations, which would actually break down barrier, one of the barriers you had was, I'll give you one if you give me one.
Yeah.
You've actually got into number counting.
Erm, there are other aspects about that that you could afford  break that down, I know there was sheep,cows, for instance.
I know the outlook.
Well, we thought that.
Er, you know, what could you do with it.
Erm, maybe since the rams are a problem on the island, maybe you could get the horses over here, to work part of the year, and then foal, er, then you'll an agreement to have some of the foals back.
I don't know, you know, erm, think about options, think about.
One of the problems is when they're starting to optimistically with tunnel vision.
Take those 
blue out there, sideways.
Erm, but  still getting, but we maybe getting a broader front on either focus too narrow a beam, sometimes it's  too difficult to get that narrow boat to be on exactly the right spot.
So keep  creative  can work.
Yeah, it's  issues, quite often as well.
I remember when I was out on the road, I had a particular connection with, we had a motor bike policy, and it was an appalling risk, and it came up for renewal, and er, nobody had  take it round the market, and I mean, that that was an idol threat, because nobody in their right mind would want this particular motor  and we said, well not  if they want to jack up the premium on it, they wanted to jack it up by about thirty or forty per cent, and and the broker was not very happy about this.
But I said, alright, well we'll consider it, so long as you let us quote for the rest of the business.
Erm, and if we actually get the rest of the business, we keep the motor pre premium down, at ten per cent increase, if we don't we're jacking it up by forty per cent.
So, in fact, it's tying the two things together, and  getting both bits of business.
The motor  is completely rubbish,won't be rubbish, but the profit bit is actually quite good.
So it's actually sometimes thinking about, can I tie in something else to this, which may bring the whole picture, bring it all together, but be creative.
Thinking things out.
But perhaps one other thing, I mean, it's all useful.
I don't know how many times I have to say, that we've we've been there and we know all about this.
But,didn't work out.
Erm, my story of this, was I I failed to recognise the role status.
I  at roles, and at one stage I almost did.
Er, the secretary gets out of her chair, and she  while I have a look, and you can hear annual negotiation, and er, and the golden rule for negotiating  was er looking at your list up there, and he was a boss, he was also working as a colleague, he was even a friend.
He  of friends,and I thought well, when we're going into this, you know, he's obviously coming in as a colleague, because actually he was a member of the same damn union.
And it was a ridiculous situation,so I went along and said er, look Jack er, we're going to go into the annual palaver, I mean, you know,very high inflation.
I said, you're gonna come in at two per cent, and I'm gonna come in at twenty-two, and we both know that actually we're gonna up finish between eight and a half and nine, don't we?
Which we did.
I said, so so shall we actually save each other time, and we'll both come in with reasonable, reasonable, till we open our pay, you know,erm, stand-points, and he said, yeah, all right.
So we, we went away, putting our package together, and we went in we sat in the  either end of the table.
He said, you've got er, your package for this year, as requested.
I said, yes, here it is.
And he said good, and here's ours, and we passed them along the table, and we wrote down  two point six, I said excuse me, could I just have that back, there's a slight typing error, excuse me, sorry  twenty-two per cent.
And of course, we settled at eight point six two or something ridiculous.
I mean, we were exactly where we said we were gonna be, but suddenly I didn't realise that he was boss.
He had to show other people, that he had gone  because that was what boss's did.
Mm.
And he had to do that every year in order to satisfy his stance his hat that he was wearing, that he was actually being the boss, and knocking the workers down, look I'm  holding down, what twenty-two point on six, er and he believed that my need was that I could go back to my manager, and say, look I got him up to two point one,.
Erm, we both had something to gain, but equally we had something to lose and maybe that's the sort of things, we think about  to change the cost.
The cost of doing that  it was too high for him.
safest,reputation, so he couldn't do it, he couldn't change  so, I've been there.
It won't always work, if you think you've 
Shall we begin to pass out the oppositions 
team.
Who are you, you are,what's your name,touch of the old garden, touch of the old garden, do you.
Good  Okay.
In terms, of sort of where we are in the course, we spent yesterday having a look at, and yes this morning, having a look at planning for England.
And we spent 
having a look at some skills,
In terms of listening terms.
Getting down to specific information and in terms of negotiation.
The fun part of the course tomorrow morning, it actually involves you in doing a role play, with one of your colleagues.
Your colleague plays your person your trying to influence, you obviously play yourself, trying to influence them.
Now we're looking for tomorrow for about a twenty minute or so role play.
And if you're still going after twenty minutes or so, we'll stop you.
Which doesn't really matter, because just we're just looking at a snap-shot of 
actually going on.
So tonight you're actually to do a little bit of discussion, and tonight, tomorrow morning, discussion with your colleague, to brief them in terms of what they need to do to fulfil that role.
How they actually need to play it.
Erm, but we aren't going to the sort of, end of degree, that er, I say this, and then you sort of enter stage left and say this, and I respond like this, and then erm, something else happens, and then somebody comes crashing in through the door.
It's er, obviously, you'll need to give them a briefing, so they can play the character, but to the end of degree, 'cos you'll need to respond to things that they say, as indeed, you'll have to back in influencing situation, back in your own department, back in your own ground.
So think about, in terms of preparation, for the influencing situation, but what are some of the things you might want to do.
Not that I want you to agree with your colleague, but check perhaps, particularly for a bearing yourself.
What are some of the things you want to think about for tomorrow.
Er, exercise?
Structure.
Right.
Need to think about a structure.
Okay.
What in particular on that?
How you'll introduce certain people.
Right, in terms of the of the dealing with the intro.
Anything else?
Terms of the structure.
Whether you're gonna do all the talking, or whether you're gonna write down ideas.
Right Okay, so whose ideas, whose contribution.
So we've got an introduction.
Anything else.
Terms of the structure.
What you're negotiating points are, all about the 
See the negotiator stance.
Position, if you like.
Yeah.
Anything else?
structure.
about introductions.
Might need to think about what are some of the things, that I would want to have as a conclusion.
Lead to that, certainly.
But whereabouts do you hope to be at the end of twenty minutes, however long we've got.
What other things might you want to be thinking about, in terms of preparation for this one.
erm, outcomes.
Right, yeah, outcomes, perhaps you're looking for.
Yeah.
Which is again related back back to that.
I mean, a whole variety of other things from erm, put ten extra staff to erm, it could be, that actually I just open the doors, so that ne next time I could actually go back in.
That's  that's measurable.
Some are very clearly measurable, but nevertheless measurable.
Any other things that might be  in terms of preparation.
Anticipate what they might say.
Right, there's a bit of about anticipation.
Yeah.
Anything else.
Right.
Anybody else wanting to be talking  last day of term, it might be worthwhile now.
Don't you think.
Surely is.
Difference in roles.
Right.
It's it's about roles.
Where am I coming from?
What kind of role.
And not only that, but where are they coming from, and how do I signal who I am?
And indeed, if I'm in a different role to what I am normally.
How do I make that particularly clear?
They always see me as The Boss, and I don't want to The Boss.
What are some of the ways that I can actually make that clear.
Anything else?
Perhaps just a couple of others, you may want to think about things like Questions.
Let's have a few questions up our sleeve.
Maybe some avenues, that we want to explore.
You might want to think about things like that.
What I also want to think about the model, the positive outcomes, remember that.
If, maybe I've got a negative outcome to the relationship to this one, are there any things I 
or positive.
So maybe I'll start off, maybe memories after you are only plans, start off with some positive plans.
And you'll start working round something there.
So that you can think about er  positive outlook is one of them.
So perhaps, a host of things to think about in terms of preparation, maybe not all of those are gonna be suitable, a relevant few, preparation this evening, but perhaps, if focusing in at least some of those, might help to to give you the opportunity to persuade to influence your colleague.
I think the only thing I'll say, you know, it's been a real odd situation, really,horse for your bit, you reckon how well do I know this person.
The bit on the video, something to do with that bit, where she says to him, What did, what are you going to say?
And what's he going to say to that.
And what are you going to there.
If she suddenly erm, you gonna have to, sort of, do this, I think it's ridiculous, but you know.
You find a very very small group, and erm, perhaps you can do this yourself.
Sounds ridiculous, but you say, oh  erm, you're not gonna like this, and he's gonna say, bloody right I don't like you.
So that's not good news  Erm, if I can show the way of overcoming that problem, how, would you be interested, and you say, that problem's always been difficult for me, you know  what can I say then, can't say, you ready to train yourself to think, you know, physically you  a little bit of  actually, putting yourself in their world.
Remember you've got to influence them in their world, you can't just live in your own.
You'll be very good, if left carrying on in their own world, for the rest of their time.
Just think about it, I mean, in a real life situation, think about, ought you think about, imagine what  how much do you know about, do you need to use your network, to find out what 
I do that but  curtain across the window in case you get   what is it.
So how do you get neighbours 
as a senior employee there,you sell tickets to them.
Okay, so a whole of things to think about, certainly for the role plays tomorrow but, indeed, for a situation back in the real world.
Okay, well maybe we could have called it a day now.
However, what we're gonna do, is usually at nine o'clock in the morning er, ready to start filming.
I think, has everybody got their pair, who they're working with,
The person you've been working with over the last couple of days.
That's alright, we can we can swap them round, I think, if we have them play first in one group and .
I think we could work 
We'll work something out about what what's gonna happen.
Work work with your pair, erm, for now, and overnight, what we'd like you do is, obviously decide for yourself your strategy, but also if you can brief your other half, as to how they need to play that role, to get you the best opportunity of practising the skills.
Now I'm not looking to people to be totally bloody minded, erm, but I'm gonna  for people to sort of totally cave in, erm, with these newly acquired influencing skills, because as we've said all along, they will work on some occasions, but they're not gonna work all the time.
So, you need to make your colleague work for what they get, without being totally sort of bloody minded.
But actually just cave in.
Looking for about twenty minutes or so.
Erm,to get some feedback at the end of those.
Okay.
Anything else  Now, just before we all er disappear, can I just quickly check what we want to do about the departure.
I guess there's only six of us, who probably finish about mid-day tomorrow, erm, of which time there are various options.
Erm, you can have a twelve o'clock bus, if you wanted to sort of flee your premises, with a packed lunch, or without a packed lunch, if you er, if you don't want to do that.
If you want to have a lunch, and then to just shoot off afterwards, we would probably get you in the staff lunch, I should think  but I'll need to check that, if not you'll have to wait till half past twelve, to have a, to have a lunch.
Or erm, no, that's it, that's the various options.
Mm.
.
I think I'm gonna have lunch at one, so 
Right okay, we'll put you down for twelve.

Court rise 
I'm sorry for the five minute delay most of you, I had to seek out about a administrative matter, an administrative matter, nothing to do with the evidence or the  place for  Mr  you had told us earlier in the week about several situations, as the management company .
In nineteen eighty seven and into nineteen eighty eight was there any other management company apart from dealing with  projects?
No there wasn't
and at that time I think  owned  developments and also 
that's correct
were some of the directors of P L C also directors of developments?
they were indeed
and also of 
yes
yes, would you wait there please 
I've heard of tactics Mr  but 
but it's a bit hard to stay awake 
well of course it is I mean er, it's er, it's essential really, it, keeps you
Mr  have I got it right that you  er do all the estimates for the management  the budgets?
Yes that's correct
that correct  what sort of time scale was it?, er, a, a block of er flats or apartments er that are going to be built on the site er, when were the estimates made?, or when were they made in nineteen eighty seven?
they're usually made between six and eight months before the first person would move in 
so what stage of er building would be reached when the estimates are made?
er the building er effectively would have only just commenced at that stage
what you're considering a, a four month's building or a  of that kind?
no the, the building plan was normally about ten months
ten months, I see so somebody might move in before the building was complete
er, there was, there was a criteria to meet before anyone was er permitted to move in it
well obviously
the whole block might not have been completed in its entirety before somebody moved in
just to get the general picture, let me  an exact period, let's get estimates because we have no idea, er, so estimates might be made or the management costs, four months or six months would you say before anybody moved in?
er six to eight months
six to eight  and again of course it's hard to say but er, when would the brochure, the sales brochure for that development be printed and available
the sales brochure would normally be available for the day that this, the show flat was open on site, er
and again roughly when would that be in with the building?
that, that would roughly be er three or four months into the building or six months before first occupation
yes,
forgive me Mr  if I want to ask somebody some questions about the brochure and er the layout and so on and I find out Counsel hasn't, I gather from Mr  that Mr  would be the person I ought to ask, is that right?
my Lord
that would be great, yeah
I'm sorry
I'm not sure about that my Lord
oh, is that what Mr  said, I'm not stopping you asking this witness at all, I don't want, you mention the brochures and I don't want to ask him questions, the kind I want to ask, er, with which they're not asked by Counsel, I shouldn't ask at this stage anyway, but by all means ask Mr  about it, I just thought Mr  said, when I tried, asked him about it, very understandably, Mr  the man, cos you are totally free to ask about it of course 
my Lord these are the matters I would like to explore at time 
very well thank you 
can I go back to where we were
yes, Mr  I'm sorry
what's wrong?
the juror in the back row has asked if the witness could speak up
if I may give you a word of advice, you may think it's rude, but when Mr  is asking questions try not to turn down towards him, if you try and face across the jury, that's what carries the voice if you're looking at them, if you turn to your left, a bit of your head goes down a bit, it's only natural, you're not as used to courts as Mr  is, er, he, he, your, it, your voice smothers, it's not a question of shouting it's just looking in the right direction, yes Mr  go on
now Mr  what I'm asking you about is the space  see how I'm speaking out so try and speak up like this so the jury can hear .
The brochure is published, printed and published about four months into the building, is that right or not?
that would be approximately correct, yes
and again as an approximation  that is when the show flat is available, the public are coming on site to view
the brochure is usually prepared for the show flat opening, yes
yes  and what, and I'm, I'm talking about nineteen eighty seven, before eighty seven  what was the time schedule, I know it will vary, from development to development for the final sales so to speak, how long will it take?,
I appreciate it varies
it will vary depending upon the number of flats in the block, but gener 
obviously 
generally you're looking at an eighteen month's sales period
yes  so will this be right, that somebody towards the end of the sale period er might be looking at a brochure that was printed at least eighteen months ago and maybe longer?
not generally towards the end of the sale period because you would be looking at er the brochure or the costs been put together eight months before the first flat was sold, erm  a new brochure following a new estimate probably would have been prepared after about twenty months, that is to say er that would have been prepared before the last people entered the er flats
are you saying, I want to clear my mind, that in the course of the sale period from first  to  a different, second additional brochure might be introduced, is that what your saying?
the brochure may well have been updated during the sales period
may well, well what was the company's policy, to update in the sales period or to use the same brochure?
it depends on the length of the sales period
well what was the criteria used, whether to have a second edition or not?
er, if the, if the, er service charge costs had gone up in the meantime, obviously after you reached the end of the first accounting period you have some accounts to go on and you have a much better idea of what the costs are actually going to be
well I wo wonder if you could forgive me address the question if you can, what was the criterion or what was the basis on which a decision is made, whether they have a second additional brochure or, or not?
it's not a second edition of the brochure it's just an updating of the figures that are included within the brochure
well can we look please at one brochure, er take er C thirty one,C page thirty one  it actually begins at twenty nine  I want to ask you one or two questions about this, have you got page twenty nine?
I have 
do you know the site at er ?
yes I do 
on page thirty one  that rather grand building shown on the left hand side, is that ?
I don't know
is that building anywhere near the site?
I don't know
but I thought you knew the site
I know the site, I don't know that building
do you know the lake on the right?
I do not
there's is a, no lake near the  development is there?
I don't know
but, how many times have you been there?
once
I see  well er, when you talk about updating er on page thirty one we have there set up at er Mr  service charges, service co service parking costs, total and then personal costs total, estimated weekly total, are you saying the rest of the brochure was to remain unchanged and that portion of it would be changed?
that the portion relating to the service and apartment costs would be updated certainly, erm 
well in other words that means reprinting that page doesn't it?, page thirty one
it would
or sticking on top of it er loosely er amendment
that's correct
well what course was adopted by  if it needed updating?
I think the page was usually re-printed as I recall 
but you were the person who actually worked out the, what costs would go in this document weren't you?
we supplied the figures
no not we, you
people who worked for  yes, through me, yes
but you were the person at  most directly responsible for the provision of these figures is that 
correct 
right?
correct
thank you  and you would accept wouldn't you, that if we have a brochure, let us say printed for next January, January nineteen ninety four alright, and I came along as a retired person in the Spring of nineteen ninety five or indeed the Summer of nineteen ninety five, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen months later, those brochure figures will inevitably be out of date in the sense of being inaccurate wouldn't they?
those, those brochure figures are updated each, first of September now
no, not now, I'll come to now, I'm asking you about then
oh I'm sorry I thought you was talking about ninety four, ninety five
no, no, I was giving you an example to what would happen on the time scale, but let me go back to January nineteen eighty seven, if the brochure was printed in January nineteen eighty seven  if the brochure was printed in January nineteen eighty seven and I went to buy in March, April, May nineteen eighty eight, the figures in the service charges would be out of date 
they would be, yes 
but the brochure would still be on the desk so to speak of the sales office
as far as I'm aware, yes 
you said you now update once a year, is that right, every September?
that's correct
when was that policy implemented by the company?
erm  I recall that would have been probably nineteen eighty nine
a year after the article
yes 
am I to understand from that answer Mr , that at some stage after the Daily Telegraph article there was a review in the  about er what should be published in the brochures about service charges
yeah, there was a continuous review at all times on such matters
what, no doubt but it slightly avoids the answer, was there a specific review about updating service charges after the Telegraph article?
I can't say that it was linked to the Telegraph article, obviously this matter
well when did it take place? this decision to update once a year
as I recall nineteen eighty nine
who took that decision?
I think it was a decision that was er suggested by  by our board 
now er limited company's don't really make suggestions, who from the  make the suggestion?
myself
ah, thank you  you made the suggestion, to whom did you make that suggestion?
I can't recall
well would it be to Mr ?
I'd be speculating if I said yes, I can't recall
well who would you need to make the suggestion that the brochure should be updated once a year, to whom would you normally make that suggestion, if it needs to be made?
it would be the matter that would have been raised at our board meeting and relayed on to 
does Mr  sit on the board of 
he was a member of the board, but he didn't usually attend the meetings 
and what is your present position now in terms of?
I'm managing director of  
managing director, who's your chairman?
er there is no chairman following the er management buy out the position is, still remains open
I, I understand, but you were a director in nineteen eighty nine?
yes
well who was the senior director at  in nineteen eighty nine, er, er apart of course Mr  who was a member of your board
in nineteen eighty nine if I recall there was a divisional structure which er comprised of a number of companies within the division and there was a managing director of that division who would have reported back to the board
who, who was that managing director?
I believe that would of been Mr 
Mr   but you must have therefore suggested it to them then  that er  the service charges needed to be updated once a year
as I recall that would be correct, yes 
now what gave the reason for that so we can all follow it quite clearly  see if I've got this right, was the reason for the updating of the service charges once a year in the brochure, the fact that if you didn't update the brochure might mislead a prospective purchaser?
no, the brochure would not necessary have been out of date, it depended when the first occupation was, if er the first occupation was in July or August it may not have been necessary to update the brochure on Sept on the first of September
that one, but you see you've introduced a policy of updating once a year
mm
and that policy hadn't existed before
well the brochures became, were dated each year, the service charge, a date was put on the service charges each year, that's not to say they were,th they automatically changed, it depends on how long the scheme had been open
I wonder if we can get to the point of my question, it may be my fault but I will try again, the reason I am suggesting to you was the decision was made to update the service charges once a year was because if you didn't update the, the existing brochure might mislead, is that right or not?
er the existing brochure might become out of date depending on how long the scheme had been open
I didn't ask you about out of date, I said might mislead a prospective purchaser  that is the reason isn't it why you would update?
we would update so that we would have current figures in the brochure, yes
er, but, the logical consequence of that is if you didn't have current figures the existing brochure if used might mislead
it is possible
but that was the purpose of updating wasn't it?isn't it?
Mr 
the purpose of updating is so that you have current information, yes
and avoid misleading the prospective purchaser about the service charge
yes
thank you, got that.
It therefore follows as night follows day that before you started updating your brochures anyway, there was always a risk that the brochures that were on site might be out of date and therefore I'm not suggesting deliberately, but innocently, might mislead an elderly purchaser, because the figures were out of date, that's right isn't it?
but it was also stated very clearly that the brochures were based on a budget figure, it was an estimate and it would be er the subject of an adjustment at a later stage 
you see Lord  is here very splendidly to argue the  case and at the moment I'd like you to address the question, I'll ask it again, the question is, I think it's a simple one, it follows from your answer about why the brochures had to be updated, but when there was a time when they were not updated before nineteen eighty nine, there was a risk wasn't there that with the brochures printing service charges towards the end of the sales period someone might have been mislead by the brochure? that's right isn't it?
I, I don't believe that to be the case because further information was provided to the er legal representatives of the prospective purchase indicating very clearly that the brochures were an estimate, or the costs in the brochures were an estimate or the cost in the brochures were an estimate and therefore it would be subject to adjustment 
you mean a solicitor's letter to another solicitor during the conveyancing period
yes
that's what you mean?
yes indeed
but if the elderly pensioner doesn't read all the solicitor's correspondence or the solicitor doesn't communicate every fact of the correspondence but relies solely on the brochure they're carrying in their pocket or their handbag  the brochure taken in isolation might mislead might it not?
I, I don't ever believe that the brochure should be taken in isolation
I see, let's look at page thirty one please  are there hidden costs, do you see that?
yes 
whose wording is this? are there hidden costs, the answer to this is definitely no, whose wording?
the wording of the company or the person who put the brochure together
yeah, it's not the wording of a company cos companies can't write, it's only human beings that can write, which human being is responsible for this wording?
the wording would have been put together by  sales and marketing people in conjunction with their agent
Mr  you see various people are giving evidence, and Mr  wants to ask the right person, certain questions, namely the person who er  devised those words and er you are er somebody in a very important position er and er he's trying to get it from you, and as he's pointed out to you a company can't sit down and produce in some corporate way a phrase someone or two human beings or more have got to do it and he wants to know if you can help us er who, who that was, that's, that's all you see, he doesn't want to ask you about it, no doubt er, er in the same way as he'd want to ask a person that actually devised a word, d'ya see?
I understand
now try and help him 
yes I, I would suggest that I, I don't know the particular individual who put the words together, but you would have to ask Mr  the marketing director for that information
thank you
is Mr  sitting in this court room?
is he
and you think he is the person from  best able to say whose work is in this brochure?
yes I do
did you have anything to do with the wording?
no nothing at all 
in fairness Mr  that is what Mr  said
I understand
earlier on
I do understand that
yeah
but I, I'm just making sure with this witness 
oh course 
what the position is 
oh , we don't want to lose him  before explore it, of course do explore it with him, that's what he said you'll have to ask Mr  about it
yes and I've just verified that this witness agrees on that matter and that he has nothing to do with it, is that right?
correct
but what you have to do with it is the compilation of the figures that go into the little table under so what would it cost, those are your figures aren't they?
the figures er relating to the service and er maintenance and management costs yes
you mean the first half of the table?
the first half, yes
you're responsible for those?
well not even the freehold security, that was agreed, that's the decision of the er P L C board and  as to what level that will be at, we are responsible for the, the service and management costs
so is this right? not, should we try avoiding we and talk about I cos it, if it's we it might be somebody else you see
yeah
you probably understand that, is it you who's responsible for the seven pound thirty five figure?
I am, yes
and equally responsible on that one for eleven pounds, five P
that's correct
and for the fourteen pounds, seventy
correct
I am grateful  now will you turn to page seventy eight in the centre   This is you know is the brochure for  er Westcliff on Sea 
correct
and on page seventy eight there is one of those tables, it follows from your previous answer, that you would be responsible for the figures of six pounds, thirty five at the top, nine pounds, fifty five and twelve pounds, seventy
that's correct 
I'm sorry page Mr  you said it
page seventy eight
I was looking at something else, thank you very much 
yes
and you say  P L C, somebody at  P L C will be responsible for the freehold security
that's correct
they remain constant though don't they?
for the first twenty one years 
yes yes, that isn't variable?, no, er 
now can we look Mr  at the print below the table, costs, questions and answers  we find that many people considering purchasing a  apartment have similar questions  can I ask you this, would you personally ever deal with people who were considering purchasing a  apartment?
er, only on occasions, normally er it would be dealt with by the sales and marketing people
why, that's what I thought, but would you on occasion have dealt with people who wished to buying or considering buying?
only if there was a particular question relating to er the management of the scheme
the management
the management of the development
yes  what, I simply don't know, if  had an on-going site, where the public was going in would you visit it, in the normal course of your business?
I would tend not to until the scheme was actually in management and running
up and running
yes 
so you intend to deal more with people who already bought and were in
that's correct
is that fair?
that's fair, yes
yes  it says  we would like to take this opportunity to answer some of the questions you might have  and then the question comes  will the management charges greatly increase?did you have any part to play in the posing of this question in the brochure?
no 
but did you know it was there?
yes
but come as not surprisingly I assume you have read the relevant brochures
that's correct
read the answer  the answer is no  have appointed the U K's leading management specialist, management services Limited for several reasons, the firstly because of their profession and caring attitude to the management of  housing , secondly, because time has shown, the management charges rise at a rate either slightly below or in the level of inflation , did you have any responsibility at all for that sentence? and secondly the time 
I didn't write that sentence but I was asked if, er, that was a reasonable, er if it was reasonable for that statement to be made, and I agreed it was
when were you asked that question and by whom?
I was asked that question by Mr  erm prior to the production of the first brochure with that statement in it
when was that statement first incorporated into the  brochure?, what year approximately?
I would have said er nineteen eighty five or nineteen eighty six, but cannot recall precisely 
something in that time?
yes 
er is this fair?, was it Mr  idea that it should be incorporated into the brochure or somebody elses?
it was Mr  that posed the question to me and I understood that it was his idea
and who would take the decision as to whether it should go in the brochure?on your understanding
that would have been a decision of Mr  
but you were consulted?
I was
did you have the power of vetoing it if you wanted?
yes
if you thought it had 
yes
you did?
yes 
so it required your sanction and approval, that was the position?
yes 
be it nineteen eighty five or nineteen eighty six, it may not matter, did you know previous to  that in February nineteen eighty seven, he as chairman had given instructions that this brochure should be withdrawn, did you know that?
I was aware of that, yes 
aware of it at the time, at or about the time when the instruction was given 
I can't recall as to the exact time when I learned of that instruction, but I was aware that the instruction had been given
well not exact, obviously, I'm not saying you remembered if it was a Tuesday morning or a Wednesday afternoon, but he gave you instructions according to Mr  in February nineteen eighty seven, would it be about that time that you learnt of the instructions?
it would have been about that time, yes, or soon after
by the spring of nineteen eighty seven?
yes 
were you aware of the reason why the instruction was given?to withdraw it
it, it may have been because I had raised some concerns, concerning that particular er statement
ah  you had raised that concern, when and with whom?
I don't recall precisely with whom, but I raised the concerns towards the end of nineteen eighty six or at, or at the beginning, beginning of nineteen eighty seven
and what were your concerns?
my concerns is, my concerns were at the time that we, we might not be able to continue with that statement because it might become inaccurate
yes and might therefore mislead
if it, if we continued to keep it in, yes
because it might mislead a purchaser
well I, I anticipated that the management charges would rise over and above inflation and I suggested we should, should not continue with that statement
and the reason for that was because if left in it might mislead a prospective purchaser
correct
thank you  so within either a year  or maybe something approaching two years  of the existence of the brochures with those words in you raise the concern, that it might be misleading if left in 
yes
with whom did you voice that concern?
I've already stated I do not recall er the person I voiced that concern with at the time
but to whom would you normally address that concern in the normal course of your business?
it would have been a matter that I may have raised at our board meeting, again, again, that would have been passed on
I understand erm Mr   because you realize in the short time that wording has been in the brochure, that it would not be possible to keep the management charges at the level of inflation or below it
there were pressures coming on the company which would mean that we could not continue to do that
when you known  exact reasons why, but the conclusion was you couldn't keep the management charges at a rate of the level of or below inflation
I came to that conclusion at that time
right.
Were you present when Mr  gave evidence in this court?
for most of the time, yes
were you present  when he defined for the benefit of my Lord and the jury, what was meant by management charges in that sentence
yes 
I think he gave a figure of one pound, fifty nine was what was referred to by the phrase management charges in that sentence
I recall that figure, yes
is he right that that is what it intended to be referred to?
yes he is 
well can you explain please as the man who devised these charges and assessed them and work them out  how by some process of reason anybody reading that sentence gets the clue that when it says management charges will rise at a rate below the level of inflation, it refers to one pound fifty nine, how can you understand that?
you, you could not work out that it was one pound fifty nine, you could, you could assume that it was a proportion of that six pound thirty five
well, why, why do you assume that?
because it's talking purely about management charges, a, the cost of the service being provided by 
now Mr  look at the wording at the top, service, apartment costs, well that means the cost of running the apartment doesn't it?, apartment costs
yes, and then it says ordinary management services 
no, no hold, hold a moment, the first line apart from cost, that's plain English isn't it?
yes
what the apartment costs, right
correct
all maintenance, warden and management services six pounds, thirty five, right
correct
, look at the sentence below, will the management charges greatly increase, the answers no because time has shown the management charges rise at a rate below the level of inflation  I suggest it to you to the ordinary person, they would think that the management charges there meant the costs that are listed above  see
I knew what I understood by it and that was that it was management 
oh 
charges
well you had the advantage of inside information, I'm talking about the ordinary punter, if you forgive the expression, the ordinary customer  you realize don't you that there's no clue in that sentence that management charges is limited to a small element of the six pounds thirty five
I agree that in hindsight it could have been clearer
well that's very kind of you  that's another basis on which it might, albeit innocently, had mislead a prospective purchaser, correct?
it, conceivably entirely inn innocently, yes it could
yeah, I'm not suggesting it was done wickedly, and deliberately, I'm suggesting with hindsight it's sloppy and, and uncomfortably misleading, you follow the point don't you?
as I said it could have been worded better
yes, well I expect you'd say that  worded better in the interests of a vulnerable section of society to take this 
er
correct?

Erm  what, what we do today is to  way go back over some of the ideas about land reform and then carry them through to the ninety fifty er Agrarian Reform Bill.
Erm   what we've been looking at is  the process of land reform.
Tt  and we're obviously looking at a process of land reform which has, has undergone a number of changes and I think we, we've begun to see some of the influences on those changes and particularly over the, the last week or so the  this has .
Tt er  and i in a sense there's kind of been an upward trend in terms of progression through that, that reform but within that there have obviously been a number of  and in a sense what we've been coming to terms with is, is what has been causing those, those variations, those changes in that policy.
Tt and I think we've identified in a number of  different factors erm  er behind that, that trend and that  erm  i in a sense there's, there's the kind of distinction between the ideological approach and  the pragmatic approach  in that we, we've seen there is a, I think a, a broad ideological impetus behind the  reform in the sense that there is this long-term commitment to overthrowing feudalism.
There is this commitment to overthrowing feudalism through class struggle and there is I think this vision that under new society will be more egalitarian, not completely egalitarian
I think there is, there is an attempt to move in that direction for a set of ideological reasons.
But we've also seen that the various,th that there is a whole range of, of practical day to day  issues which have come up which have, have like distorted a s a straightforward progression along those ideological lines tt  and  in particular over the last  we, we've, we've identified the political and military factors erm 
which have been relevant there and the political factors during the  Japanese war, the  a need to form a united front, a need to moderate policy and then, over the course of nineteen forty six, forty seven, the need to move in a more radical direction, to go back to land reform and, and land reform a  scale in terms of absolute egalitarianism because that was seen as the way of, of mobilizing mass peasant support, particularly amongst the poor, most quickly.
So one of the influences on, on the progress of land reform is, is this interaction between ideology and pragmatism.
Perhaps er er  another way of looking at this would be to see it in terms of rightist deviations and leftist deviations and one might see erm the er the moderate policies  er of thirty seven to forty nine i in a sense as being erm  a rightist deviation, one might see forty six forty seven as being leftist deviations and  the left is seeking to overcome rightist deviations, the right seeking to overcome leftist deviations and you've got some kind of oscillation between the two.
Tt  so that th the er there's that aspect to it, which I think er complements rather than contradicts the, the ideological pragmatism one.
Another way of looking at this might be  to say  in a sense there are  there are two bits, one is identifying where we are now and identifying in relation to both  
ideological position and in terms of, of the practical realities, both in terms of rightist and leftist deviations, where we want to be.
So in any one point in time  the movement is going to depend on identifying exactly where you are at the moment in terms of any of the cycles and where it is you want to get to in relation to, to a particular situation facing you.
So I think there are, there are all those kind of bits which are there in terms of the understanding of, of where policy was and where it was going.
Tt now if we just take that, that latter point up for a minute we can
look in early nineteen forty eight  where we are,wh where the land reform process had taken the Communist Party  tt and then we could begin to look forward to  where policy was going to go from there in terms of the military, political, economic, ideological future  and what I'm going to do today to, to begin with anyway is, is to just consider where we are and where it is we're gonna go and in a sense we could, it might be helpful to, to put ourselves back in a position of being the central committee again.
Now what, what was emerging in the end of  last week's discussion  was that there's been the agrarian land law,land law of er  October nineteen forty seven, absolute egalitarianism  and a recognition certainly by the spring of  nineteen forty eight that that had overstepped the mark at least in terms of its implementation in that it had in particular led to the encroachment of  middle 
peasant  and that that had had adverse consequences in terms of maybe economic output, certainly in terms of mobilization, certainly in terms of, of political effect on, on the middle peasant  and therefore there had to be the, the correcting bit to this  and that correction comes either very late forty seven but particularly early nineteen forty eight  when the excesses of the, the campaigns and excesses against the middle peasants have to be, be corrected  and there are very clear statements from Mao that the middle peasant must not be encroached upon.
Perhaps a bit more than that, the old nineteen thirty three class differentiation documents are reissued  and they are reissued together with the supplements which we saw came out in the autumn of nineteen thirty three which  and, and those supplements where then extended to allow the middle peasant to  er up to twenty five, on some of the readings up to thirty percent, of his income from exploitation.
So it's not just the, the standard middle peasant who is being protected, it is if you like the well to do middle peasant who's being protected.
So there is, there is this very clear and I think very substantial protection for the middle peasant.
Over and above that, Mao is  is in a sense coming up with, with a new set of proposals.
He  he's arguing I think on a basis of, of the experience of the past few years  that the situation now in China was a, was a rather variable one, that land reform had proceeded at different rates in different areas  and because areas where different that had to be taken into account  and Mao explicitly was going back to the idea that in the newly liberated areas the policy would be one of rent reduction, interest rate reduction  and that rent and interest rate reduction had to be established for some time until the position had consolidated around rent reduction, around interest rate reduction  and once that had happened you would then be able to go into land reform itself.
In a sense Mao is, is adopting very much the position that he seems to have taken erm in nineteen forty five when he's, he's looking forward to land return but saying at the moment our policy of rent reduction, interest rate reduction will continue and at some stage we will then be able to move on into, to that reform.
So there's a clear policy for, for newly liberated areas.
As far as the old liberated areas were concerned, there was going to be a kind of land investigation  again.
There would be a reassessment of how the land reform process had worked.
Where it was found that middle peasants had been encroached upon, where it was found that middle peasants had been dispossessed erm  that position would be rectified and that would be given back to middle peasants.
So very different policies for the old and new liberated areas.
And in a sense Mao is saying that it's, it's not right to go straight for land reform, you, you've got to go for this policy of rent reduction, interest rate reduction first.
And alongside this  went a much stronger wash your face campaign  and the names of the , names of Party members were published.
Erm Mao was worried that as,i in the course of the, the latter stages of  directive and the   there had been abuses of the system by Party members and that had led to the Party getting a bad name with the peasants and the way to rectify that was to publish the Communist Party membership so everybody in the village would know who was a Communist Party member and they would be able to see, Mao believed, that on the whole Party members had behaved properly, they hadn't exploited the situation for their own advantage  and where they have they would be, there would be a  with them to correct.
Now  that I think is, is the position as of the spring of nineteen forty  
Can I just stop there for a minute er er is this the best  
any, any points  anything anybody would like to add to this?
Did you call it wash your fact  sort of?
Mm.
Yes I mean it, it can be, I think it can be .
It's not something which is introduced for the first time in nineteen forty eight but, but there is erm sort of another round of it erm and  sort of the new dimension is that the, everybody's name is published because until then you, you didn't er you didn't know who the Party members were.
Mm.
Right.
Now  we need to decide  where to go from here.
Now I, I, I er our, our, in a sense our policy now is that we're going to sort of readjust the policy in, in the north .
As we go into the south we are just going to conduct a rent reduction, interest reduction campaign and we, we will then aim to consolidate that position and at some stage we will then move forward into land reform again, but to do that we will probably need a new land law because we're recognizing the old agrarian land law is, is inappropriate,absolute egalitarianism  is now dead in a sense of as erm  it's sort of saying that, that as Mao is arguing in May forty eight, May forty eight that absolute egalitarianism is wrong.
So, so, so that bit of it we've, we've moved forward .
Er  are you happy with this idea that, that  sort of the immediate future in the newly liberated areas is, is just rent reduction, interest rate reduction, consolidate that and then move on?
Do does this seem to be the right policy?
It would have more affect in the south   
on the moderate side erm it would, would stand a better chance than 
Yes, right.
and as a starting point
Yes.
and there's more of a justified presence.
So that it, it would actually fit the conditions in the south in terms that we are, you're moving into an area of, of higher tenancy and therefore rent reduction, interest rate reduction is, would have a significant effect.
Right.
you say this rent reduction?
Oh cos I, I thought they erm   they had the three different areas
Mm
but erm I thought  forty eight, areas where  and carry out 
Yes, I, I think that was  that was still when the  I think that was still in a sense under the auspices of the old agrarian  er of the  of forty seven  was still being given by .
Erm I think bro broadly, certainly by the time you've got through to the later spring th th there is  y yes I mean i in a sense there are sort of three areas if you like but, but very broadly the areas which had not been taken over yet i is very much a slower process of consolidation and then you wait for the next rule.
Er you're happy with this, this seems  okay in terms of policy  
Doesn't it seem slightly odd though?
In the sense that, in a way going on from what I was saying  on the face of it south China ought to be the area where  land reform will be easiest to achieve  in the sense that here you've got a society which is landlord dominated, heavily landlord dominated  and therefore w where one would expect that the antagonism, antagonisms between landlords and tenants would be at their greatest.
I in, in the north you've got a higher proportion of owner-occupiers and 
you perhaps haven't got the same degree of landlord exploitation, you might, I think one might argue from, from what we said earlier that in the north you've got a s a slightly more paternalistic landlord, it's, it, there's less, less absentee landlordism  landlords were more likely to have been behaving within the confines of moral economy  wouldn't, wouldn't have been  tt erm reducing rents, it was done on a much more, more personal sort of scale.
You move into the south which is the area where landlord exploitation might have been at its most intense, where you would expect antagonisms to be greatest, where one would expect that peasants would be actually demanding land reform and, and  indeed if you, you go back to, to the  you've clearly got that almost spontaneous underlying radicalism because of the, the intense landlord exploitation.
What we're saying on the whole is that we, we are moving south  erm militarily we, we now control most of north China, we begin to move on to the  into areas of very high tenancy where landlordism was thought to be at its extreme but all we're doing is reducing rents and interest rents.
I think if, if they adopted a policy of erm of struggle  last time, I mean they would get to land reform indirectly but I don't think you can erm initiate it from the Party as such like  because that causes all sorts of problems through definitions and things like that but  
yeah I think  right  but I think the way of analyzing  is through just saying  you, what are your grievances and then ultimately that will result in landlords being driven out.
Right.
So they've learnt that they can't implement land reform unless they've got the support of the popular masses and it's got to come from them cos ultimately they, they're pursuing land reform in order to get the peasant support and if that's not what they want there's no point in just erm  imposing it on them.
You've got to, the peasants have got to be demanding it themselves.
Alright, so what you've learnt from the experience in North China is that you are actually better off to go in fairly gently
Mm.
and  begin the process and then allow the peasants to kind of take it over, to become involved, to become vocal and to become activated.
And you've got to educate the masses and perhaps instil  erm more revolutionaries, sort of a more, a culture that actually sees that they're not gonna gain just material benefits but how that this is in order to advance society forward.
Mm.
Yes and take control of them in terms of direction and so on.
Yes.
Mm.
in a sense though you're putting a lot more emphasis on the Party.
You're saying it's the, it's the, it's the Party that, that erm mobilizes them, there is, there is actually very little spontaneous revolutionary charge within the peasantry.
That, that you've got to create it for them.
I mean by just doing this sort of settling of accounts is that creating it for them?
Er I mean is that creating a sparkle?
I think  I mean it's a, it's a very small sparkle  just saying  
now's a chance to erm  
Is, isn't the idea that 
most likely to make people believe that they can achieve a certain thing and let them get up and do it and erm  so that the Party's role is in the initial stage  fostering as much mobilization
Yes.
creating a common consciousness and then let the peasants go with that.
Not do actually do the land reform themselves, but to create the conditions whereby they can believe in themselves.
Right.
So land reform is, is, and this will be very counter to nineteen forty seven, land re land reform is, is not now the means of mobilizing the masses, you have to mobilize the masses for land reform.
And this rent reduction, interest rate reduction together with the kind of settling accounts procedure which presumably will come out of this is the means by which you mobilize the masses and once you've got them mobilized, you can then move on to land reform.
But it's, it's premature to go for land reform straight away.
Yeah.
I, I  
bring up this point about the masses being  were the masses revolutionary or not
Yeah.
and I remember doing my first, one of my first essays  erm saying that I didn't think they were and all that they were  erm  was the fact that er er of  and you said to me at the end  that's fine as far you've argued it but I think you'll change your views as you go on and I don't know if I have.
Right .
So erm I don't whether or not I s I still don't think they were ultimately revolutionary, I think they were just erm   people who they think were exploiting them at the time  sort of erm you know in a certain situation 
Just because they weren't revolutionary doesn't mean that they didn't have the potential to become revolutionary 
I know.
Sure.
Yeah.
and erm it was  
But they di didn't have the idea of revolution in themselves, they didn't have the idea of overthrowing the landlords themselves.
But maybe cos there was no opportunity, they didn't see there to be  I mean like they didn't know any better but as soon as, I mean things are rapidly changing they're given the opportunity to erm I mean through the struggles  to actually take charge of the conditions and to gain so some material and  perhaps there was beginnings of them seeing that well  perhaps we ought to look more to this sub-culture and to erm 
Well I mean it's 
change their values.
it's very  Party initiated isn't it?
The Party's giving 
putting these ideas into their heads of erm  creating a society in which  
But then the peasants surely should be able to choose to accept or reject what the Party is trying to  instil  in a way.
Yeah.
But I mean it's the idea, the idea is coming, is not coming from themselves, it's coming from the Party that, that er that you can create a system without landlords.
It has to though because if in the pa if they've had this  long-term sort of culture for all this time they need to be given ideas but essentially if their traditional values were so strong they would have rejected what the Communist Party was trying to say, but because they accepted it it meant they ha they did actually have the potential to be revolutionary.
And  going on from that surely we argue that the May the fourth directive  came about or certainly was, was put out as this is what the peasants  three times the peasants had demanded land return  I E they were in advance of the Party, they were more radical, they, they were, in a way they were saying look this, this rent reduction is not enough  we want a much stronger programme, we actually want the land reform.
And that's what the directive says?
Yes.
Well maybe they  
but that's, that's entirely logical  
the, the more you argue for this  economy, and the more you argue no this is, this really is how the peasant felt and he  that the peasant really erm  didn't have any ideas of changing society at that  of  the landlord system  the more I assume that  one would support this kind of rent reduction, interest rate reduction campaign which allows you to slowly build up that mobilization which is necessary.
The,th th th the o the other thing that is  I think, I think there is something in this, is that there was, at least within some sections of the peasantry, erm er a, a kind of erm revolutionary zeal which they were building themselves and they were wanting to go beyond the Party.
And, and that would derive from cases where landlord exploitation was particularly severe and therefore peasants were saying no  rent reduction, interest rate reduction is not enough, we want to go further than that now.
And I think there is that element there.
Mm.
And you think that's not just a sort of relatively recent phenomenon in the sense of  you know, the  sort of mid nineteen thirties  or you think it's always been there?
You know just an idea 
Yeah  whether or not you   whether or not you think it's been induced by the fact that, that they've heard  what happened in  and they think that they can start doing that as opposed to ch as opposed to just saying we're going to exist by creating  
sure, there may be some thinking that, there may also though be  er if you move through to the forties you're,y you're twenty years on from the nineteen twenties, you, you've had  and you've had deterioration in agricultural conditions er  as, as we've seen  you've got erm increasing landlord absenteeism, you, you've got a downward, an upward pressure on rent  in terms of how much was having to be paid in real terms, all of those things might have come together to, to, to push the peasant over and to push him outside .
It it's  it's a possibility
Mm.
erm   I, I don't  I, I would be a little unhappy saying the peasant still, in the nineteen forties, was st totally still bound by foreign economy
Mm.
but clearly there, there is an element of that, there is an element that they'd gone beyond it that's  that that bit  is difficult to define and quantify.
What was erm  how, how badly was the south by affected by the Japanese, I mean what were the peasants likely to have gone through in the last few years?
Erm they would not  have gone through the same sort of occupation.
Erm the Japanese presence in the south was, was more just along the coast, they, they, they'd taken the trading ports erm  and they had  some of the interior but on, on the whole south China had not been  dominated by the Japanese,th th th their base was very much the north China plain and, and spreading across towards  the communist areas .
I mean they cut in through Manchuria down the north to, to, across to north China plain, had taken the cities on the eastern seaboard which was what they wanted, I mean th th they really wasn't any point in  controlling the rural south, it would have taken so many troops, so much administration if they'd  that then they had everything they wanted from the trading ports so  there wasn't that Japanese presence and so the   clearly was different.
Mm.
So they're not trying to, you know, get themselves back together again having  erm you know, the Japanese having left and, you know  
the villages have been razed and all that sort of stuff?
Er there would have been some cases where that had happened  erm and clearly the nationalists had withdrawn from most of southern China into, into south west China and therefore erm  th th there'd been  er and there was quite a lot of fighting going, still going across south China so i it's not   quite the same .
the nationalists don't have so much of hold now over the south.
Er they do after, yes th the, the nationalists had moved back across the south after nineteen forty five erm  th th they'd, they'd retreated from the Japanese progressively after nineteen forty one and abandoned Shanghai and  etcetera.
They now moved back, in sympathy with the Japanese surrender, they moved back and the nationalists took Shanghai and really controlled the whole of, of south China again so that the, the old landlord system had been re-established.
Sorry you were going to say something.
Erm  no what  coming out of this is that how that  although one would assume in the south that the peasants ought to be more revolutionary, in actual fact it's the reverse and why is this happening, is it because of the fact that the Communist Party were in the n that maybe essentially  that the peasants in China er were reactionary and worked within the confines of moral economy, but because of the presence of the Communist Party in the north they became more revolutionary and that's sort of suggested by the success of land reform there and the fact that how, that they can't implement it in the south.
Or is it because there's a different culture in the north and south because the, the two parts of China are very different, so you don't know whether it's  the Communist Party that's determining this difference or whether it's just because of a difference of culture there.
And it's, it's difficult for us to tell because we don't have that  many regional studies  to be able to know exactly what it was that was determining  these differences of values.
Yes, but there might be some important differences that we would want to bring up, which we, we perhaps could take a bit further.
Erm there might for example be economic differences.
Now  tt  if you look at it this way,le let's suppose that the Communist Party was successful in its military campaign and it, it  takes military control of south China, which it was beginning to then, and did up to nineteen forty eight 
could you, and therefore its political position is becoming increasingly secure  erm and  the  there was no major military threat  to land reform.
There was no reason in terms of a  a, a military position why you shouldn't have introduced land reform in, in the way that  going through  and you are moving into an area where as we've seen landlordism was at its  
and peasant antagonism ought to have been greatest  and therefore you  on the face of it it seems surprising doesn't it that land reforms didn't take place immediately, or they weren't attempting land reform to take place immediately.
I mean if, if, if you were  looking from outside and you were going to choose an area that you were going introduce land reform   you would choose south China wouldn't you?
Now is, is the fact that they don't do that, they still go for this rent and interest rate reduction   is it  because of the experience of the north, they found that the best way in the north was to go for rent reduction, interest rate reduction and then go on, and they were simply taking that experience into the south, but taking it into a different area where it was no longer necessary or appropriate?
Mm.
It's not such a pragmatic thing then because  
one of things you said earlier on you said when you  do become very radical erm it's, the distinctions between  become blurred
Mm.
that erm one of the most important things is to keep up your production
Right.
and therefore if you're gonna er introduce this radical land reform straight away, I mean say  there is no landlord but there's a  peasant, or  I mean unless the Party's ac completely active 
Mm.
and they're gonna get hit.
Right.
And basically what they need to do is create  peasant  economy to increase production as they learn from the land.
Ah right.
So if you go too radical you're gonna hit production, and you're gonna step back which  
Right, and are you beginning to say that production is coming to be a more important criteria now?
Yeah I think so.
Well it certainly has  but there's still kind of elements of 
I think especially when they find out that there's not much land to go round as they ash assumed.
assume that if you give them  a population that owned seventy eight percent of the land and find out  fifty percent of the land , then you, you know, you can't just give land, everyone's not just gonna have land, you have to increase production to make everyone better off.
Mm.
Right.
So whereas in the north the, in a sense the, the main criteria was mobilization  as you're moving south in the new situation a new criteria is, is production.
you need, you need, you need mobilization you need 
Yeah.
support, but then even more you need production.
Yeah.
Right.
There's also another problem with land reform in  I can't really see how they could implement land reform without reverting to similar sorts of  they used in  which is  defining class distinctions and the chaos that that causes and the problems it causes erm  it is almost as if , if you go back to erm settling of accounts
Mm.
okay you're erm  you're getting rid of your communist ideas  you're  finding a smoother way to getting erm  to achieving a similar sorts of effects  
hit the top end  get a  cross-section o of, but you still get the same, ultimately the same sorts of results erm by, by erm by adopting that policy whereas if you go  for trying to draw distinctions, you end up erm 
Right so it's, yes, so, so, so the danger is, is chaos and the movement gets out of hand and  
Right.
One way around that might be then to have enough cadres on the ground in order to, to do it properly.
I mean even, in a sense you, you, you're worried about the excesses.
Yeah.
But also the administration of  and trying to rectify the  
Right.
Right.
S so the, the more  you've got, the less that is  
Yeah the, the less but I still think there's a fundamental problem with drawing the distinction 
Right.
Right.
Fine.
Erm but maybe this, this  issue is, is, could be important in the sense that you, you've got  tt er  if you take China as a whole you've probably got well in excess of a million villages  erm you've probably got a denser population in the south than the north so you've got more than half a million villages in the south 
okay, and if you're going to conduct land reform  you've got to have an effective land reform team to go into each of those villages.
Erm so you, you, and you, you're looking of, of land reform teams of four, five members  so you're, you're looking at somewhere between two and three million cadres to go into the villages.
And you've got two or three million cadres, trained cadres who know what they're doing, are experienced, who knows what the south is 
who know what the south is like.
So that there, there may be a, an important personnel problem th th that you realize that well okay  the option of going for land reform is, is there but you're saying  er it's likely  trouble  my experience of the past is that, that  radical land reform is, is disruptive  it could affect production, it could get out of hand, it could alienate people  in order to control them we need a lot cadres on the ground and we haven't got them.
Well even if you 
did have them would it, would it 
definitely be for the better?
I mean they were, they were still so corruptible.
Or had that changed  were they, were they mo more educated now and less corruptible?
Who?
The cadres.
The cadres.
Because to some extent erm
Yeah.
the rightist and leftist deviations were, were because of them.
Yes.
Er so you would  you would need a very heavy rectification programme to sh to ensure, not just that you had enough cadres, but that the cadres were going in with, with the right attitudes.
Erm  it, that would take time, I mean it's,th that would be very difficult to control.
Yeah.
You're right so it's, so it's not just in terms of the number of the cadre, it's the quality of the cadre, and, and you can't just erm  er I mean  you can't just pick, you can't   you've gotta educate them, create them etcetera, yeah.
In applying that how that they didn't implement land reform because it wasn't viable  but if  erm another way of looking at it is that how the Communist Party no longer saw land reform as the best way, means of achieving greater 
Yes.
egalitarianism and that how that  increased production was seen as the  you know, priority, and so perhaps they would want to just  I mean it might seem  appear that they were changing their policy to a more moderate land reform but this was  not an end in itself it was a means to an end in order to increase production which would benefit the population as a whole, so it's, they still had the same goal
Yeah.
which is to achieve greater equality but you're having different means to achieve that.
Right.
It, it, it's a different means to an end, it's a much slower means to an end
Mm.
in the, in the sense that i if, if you look,i if you adopt a sort of retrospective view, I E if you look back from say  anything after nineteen forty nine and you say look, hold on erm  this was the final stage of the revolution.
The communists had never been in a better position than they were in in, in nineteen forty eight, the civil war was, was clearly going in their favour  erm they were to achieve power within eighteen months  and at precisely the point where they had everything going for them, they are adopting the most moderate policy.
If there was any time when radical land reform would have succeeded, it was during nineteen forty eight to nineteen forty nine, and it's precisely that time  looking into an area which would seem to be the most favourable for radical land reform, they have not taken that opportunity.
how much control did they have over ?
Well they're getting increasing control, increasing control but not  and er so yo what you're saying is that, is that even if, if you go back to the reality of nineteen forty eight, actually they didn't realize they were going to get that control as quickly.
they, they were seeing  as being an, a longer drawn out struggle
Mm.
not, which, one which would not be over in a year and a half.
I mean we've, I mean at that point you've got  that was the point where you've got the massive United States aid coming in  erm  you, you've got erm  United States equipping China with all   enormous fire power, sending tanks in etcetera, I mean this was the beginning of, of the realization of the United States that, that the communists were a threat and they didn't like it and they, they were putting massive ai aid  erm and, and that there was all that United States war machine erm  
And this, this other thing as well about erm  which is obviously  and erm  I think what they had in mind was that before you start doing anything radical, before you start having any real land reform at all, you have to ensure that you really have control of that area, he's had this 
Yes, right.
experience of trying to, trying to put through land reform in erm areas which then led to  just incredibly bad
Yes.
cos all the sort of people  communists  they're all just full of hot air and just really get lost 
Right.
the important lessons they learnt cos at first they thought land reform would enable them to achieve mass mobilization
Yes.
but now they realize that however you need to have mass mobilization in order to have successful land reform 
Right.
Right.
and so land reform was no longer seen as a means to achieve their end that they  that and that  it wasn't the best policy to consolidate power, it was  you needed to have the mass support there first so that's why land reform was no longer seen as their goal so they didn't take it up at this point when one would expect them to pursue it.
It's, well it's still a goal but it's one step off?
Yeah.
Right.
So, so there are two bits, there's, one is th that you need the  the, the, the evidence from the north is that you need mobilization in order to get land reform and the way to get mobilization is rent reduction, interest rate reduction and then sort of the, the struggle meetings and that provides the activism  to go to land reforms and the other bit is, is the military one,th that you've learned that if you're going to go through with land reform and keep the support, you've got to make sure you've got your military security first.
Erm and because in, even in nineteen forty eight, you couldn't guarantee that  
you were better off to, to play it cautiously.
If you put the two together erm you  i it becomes understandable  why they, they adopted these policies to the south, even though sort of from what happened the first time particularly in a retrospective way, the expectation would be  you would, this would be the are where you would go for land reform straight away.
I mean in, in, in retrospect they probably could've achieved it  because they, they got the military er they, they, they did get the military security and  you probably could've afforded actually to, to mobilize the peasants through land reform.
I if, if you could have got some cadres on the ground, you know, so, so the other bit of this is  is if you are going to go for land reform you've got to have, not just the military presence and military security, but enough trained  honest  highly motivated cadres.
Surely erm part of the problem   
Ah right.
obviously 
Right so we, we, we also need a new  land reform document, because we can't use the  because egalitarianism we've, we've recognized from the experience of the north is wrong, that's not gonna work so we need something else.
Right.
Fine.
So one of the things we're going to, to do is to, to see what that new land reform document might be.
Before we do that can I just take up one other point.
, sorry
two reasons  policy, one was the er military secured area  
Erm   what was your question?
Wouldn't, wouldn't you need the peasant mobilization first?
Yes.
Before the land re before you could have successful land reform.
Sorry I lost my place.
Erm
Erm well th th th yeah but th th th there's, there's  the military security you need erm  you, you need  er tt  you've got to have the, the, the personnel to be able to do it
Mm.
and you've recognized that there are dangers if you, if you try and mobilize people too quickly i i it, it needs to be done slowly.
But is there also the, the, the idea of,a and in a sense  one thing you haven't actually got an appropriate land reform  
so you have to actually figure a new one out before we can  
?
Do you have something like a sort of  guide book, you know how to conduct  
Ca can we, that, that's  after 
break for coffee.
One other thing before that.
Is, is it possible to argue that the south is fundamentally different in terms of its ?
Tt  er if, if, if you go back to some of the things we were looking at last term er er this idea of commercialization  tt  er  argue that the south was a very different type of country to the north, that it is commercialized  at least to a much greater extent
and i if, I mean i if you take   's argument, if you take  's argument, they are all to do with, with provinces in the south  and, and the argument is that here we have, we are looking at a commercialized viable economy  and both  and  and for example are all arguing really that landlordism is not the problem  the problem is that you, you, you, you  you need to go further in terms of commercialization and that that, and that's the way to go.
I E you're not really looking at a feudal economy in the south any more  i it may be a much more heavily commercial capitalist economy  and therefore the kind of land reform programme that you might incorporate from a feudal north might not be entirely relevant.
So there might be something in the argument that, that  it's not just a, a question of what you've learned from the north, but there may be a recognition that  the economy in the south is different, or at least they might be arguing, those who are arguing that the economy in the south is different and that, that reform might not be necessary, it might not even be appropriate in the south.
It's a possibility.
Did the Communist Party know that though?
Cos surely they'd want to try to make peasants see that exploitation was  I mean cos there was still an agrarian problem in the south, just because it was more commercialized and economically viable there was still  thousands, tens of thousands of people who were starving and stuff so erm  did the Communist Party recognize this difference  in the economy, in the economic structure between the north and the south?
I mean we can because we've studied it and had all the statistics and stuff.
And would they wanted to have believed it.
I don't think they s th th they obviously didn't see it in, in quite the terms that  
but I think there was an awareness that there was likely to be much more opposition to, to land reform in the south.
Not s in a sense just by individual feudal landlords, but by landlords saying well I'm, I'm not really feudal anyway, that I've moved on from that, I am a commercial landlord rather than a feudal landlord.
This is the difference?
Mm.
You don't have any of this sort of  you have to work  
dates that they had sort of like bonds in which they have to work to supply labour for certain dates on their land instead of feudal ties  
Exactly.
yeah,
Yes.
as opposed to that was a part of being a tenant, you know, for the honour of  you pay me rent but you also come and work on my land for how many days 
But as such just because you're hiring people that's still going to be, in Marxist terms, seen as exploitation.
Right.
But it might be in   but it, it is, it is  
i i that was right,th th th there is a  i that they could be, if you like, capitalist landlords and feudal landlords.
Now capitalist landlords might be the  development  certainly in terms of production   you, you might be disrupting a viable, commercial, capitalist orientated economy, and would you really want to do that?
Well no if you tried to then you, you'd be in some difficulty  rules which, you know 
Yes.
commercial industrial  society  
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it might also be that   
the landlords in Saigon are if you like more commercial, more capitalist, it might be they were better organized than landlords in the north.
I mean th th th the clan links in the south were much stronger than they were in the north, and therefore there might be even greater commercial landlord opposition to land reform than there had been in the north.
Was the south not more erm densely populated as well?
Yes.
Yeah.
So you'd end up putting  much smaller sort of bits of land
Yes.
for each peasant which is going to harm production too.
So there's gonna be less
There's, there's less
inequality or
there's a greater pressure of population  therefore  are you saying that, that  land reform might  at least on the model tried in the north, might not yield any economic benefits 
Mm.
in terms that, that th th the erm land to  released would be relatively small?
Yes.
Right.
So the economic gains from  land reform in the south  might not be that great.
I mean you, the, the more you argue the south is a viable economic system, the less there is to gain from land reform.
erm  
and stuff like that  
I mean the amount of land each family will get   if you redistribute land, then the land for the family is not gonna be able to support the family.
Right.
But
Yeah.
Yes 
Mm.
Yes.
Erm  I, I think I might have missed Adam's point and I was going back to  whether the south was more efficient than the north because just tying it in with the seminar we had on managerial farms, weren't there more in the north than in the south?
And so then that would just prove that how, managerial farms weren't that much more efficient?
Er I think those are separate issues.
You, you, you're right to say that on the whole  there, the managerial farms were in, in the north, although there w there was clearly some in the south
Mm.
erm  I don't think this in itself said anything about level of efficiency of managerial  farms.
Erm I think it's, it's saying more about how  how we categorize this economy in the south, it clearly, it, it's not a managerial 
Mm.
erm  but that, the fact that there were managerial farms in the north might erm have er er important implications for the kind of land reform document we would want to draw to accommodate the situation in the north as well.
Yeah my problem is just erm having said that we don't think land reform should go ahead in the south because it's a fairly efficient set up  
Mm.
then the, the main problem is rent because presumably it all, all starts being creamed off the top so, okay you don't have to redistribute land, but you can still get rid of the landlords and the people who are erm  taking away the surplus
Right.
from, from the , you could either do it by a method of taxing landlords so heavily
Yes.
that it's  barely worth their while to erm to employ  try and get rid of them by doing that  er which er which means that there shouldn't be redistribution of land that much and therefore
Right.
S yes so   rent reduction will, could make a significant difference in the south because you've essentially got a landlord tenant society
Yeah.
and you, it might open the way for peaceful land reform
Yeah.
Mm.
I mean if, if you er er the whole experience of  was that you could get rent reduction and interest rate reduction relatively peacefully   so you wouldn't get disruption etcetera and you wouldn't get disruption and what, what you might come to recognize as a more , a more viable agricultural system.
So peaceful land reform based around rent reduction, interest rate reduction, might be the ultimate strategy for   given your learning process in the north, given the nature of the economy in the south.
So if you, I mean, to go back to our initial proposition, whilst on the face of it it seems curious that  in the area in south China where one would expect land reform to be easiest to achieve  the communists adopt a much more moderate, slower, cautious policy  but for a whole variety of reasons we, we're, we're tending towards the view that that would be the most appropriate anyway.
Yeah.
Right.
And er so, so, so we are er ou out of this it's er we're still, we're still committed to land reform are we?
We st we still want to achieve land reform because that ultimately is, is going to be the only way of ensuring that we end feudalism  and the proper benefits go to the poor.
So we, we, we've got in a sense this holding exercise of rent reduction, interest rate reduction but we are going to need a new land reform document to take us through, I mean certainly once we get to nineteen forty nine and we are in power,th th we, we are gonna want land reform aren't we?
Mm.
Sure, do, we do need land reform?
isn't it?
Right.
Okay so we are,w w we're now in a position of, certainly by nineteen forty nine we're, we're on the verge of power, we want  l we, land reform is not taking place any more, there are still some areas in the north it hasn't taken place  out in the far north west it hasn't taken place, so we, we, we are going to need a new land reform document based on all the experience we've got  which will carry us through and, and it's really  that land reform document, document that we are going to implement for the whole of China, and it's going to be that document which really is going to abolish feudalism and create  some sort of equality.
Well let's have some coffee and then come back and  
We've gotta devise a new land reform law.
What's our priority?
What, what, what really is the land reform  to achieve now?
of feudalism 
You've gotta 
Right.
Yeah.
Protect commerce and industry.
protect commerce and industry.
Yeah, I guess it's all  
Just looked after  go on.
Erm  well  erm it's that 
Yeah.
we are now in power  but I don't think  that presumably proved that we can run an economy efficiently 
Mm.
and
once we've got that then we have the resources from that I think to introduce other programmes that take
Mm.
quite a long time to implement, for example 
Mhm.
erm 
Wh when you're saying to run the economy, do you mean the rural economy or the economy, you know, China as a whole?
Well let's say we've moved on to and we're into nineteen forty nine say
Yeah.
and we've  in nineteen forty nine  
and  w w w we are either half controlled or we're, we can now see that you know the civil war is, is going so quickly our way that we are going to have control  within a year or so we are likely to have control over the economy as a whole.
D does that begin to make a difference?
Yes because now 
Right.
Yes.
So we then have to coordinate our policies
Mm.
erm  this is going to be really  hard work .
It's got, I mean, surely the, the middle peasants or even the rich peasants  the group of people that are gonna be most productive in the economy erm so you know your reform has to be fairly moderate in that sense that they have to be able to  promote 
Right.
economic growth and, and 
Right.
So in a very broad sense agriculture is going to have to con contribute to China's, China as a whole's economic development
Mm.
I E to, to, and will contribute to China's industrialization because once we are in control industrialization will be necessary.
So agriculture will have to play a role in that and therefore we want to increase agricultural output  and  in order to do that you want to protect the middle and rich peasants who are the most efficient producers, or I E managerial farms  if, if they are more efficient, you want to, if  you want   it would not make sense to take land away from rich peasants in order to give to poor peasants when rich peasants might be more efficient producers.
Well it depends how quickly the poor peasants can achieve more efficiency   how quickly they can do that.
Right.
Yes, so, so, so you're taking decisions in terms of well  which are the most efficient  
within the countryside and how can we create those m those .
That er that, that, I mean that efficiency thing is becoming an important consideration in a way which  we, we, we've not mentioned before.
Mm.
Well I mean surely it's, that's  the point now is to try to make a fair erm law and one that is ideologically erm designed seeing we've got to power, or we've got certainty of obtaining power, therefore land ownership has got to be  land ownership which has been  capitalism  Marxist 
So th th is becoming more complex.
I i in the past our aim with land reform has been very largely erm  we want to end feudalism and we want to maximize mobilization  we, we're now saying okay we, we still want to those, but we, we've also got to ensure that somehow we have a land law which ensures that agriculture will play a role in China's industrialization and so we will get maximum efficiency from the agricultural sector  as well as mobilization, as well as ending feudalism.
Er er we could  say that we've got a much bigger range of aims and does that mean that we are more likely to have  
it's going to be very difficult isn't it, for us to be able to achieve all of those aims  at the same time.
Well er I mean well things like communal ownership  advocate them to be  reforms 
You can move beyond the efficiencies of erm of the erm  managerial systems or the existing systems by erm creating, you could do coll collectives and then using state support to erm bring in erm more capital
You reckon  state collectives do you?
Well  well you, you can advocate erm mutual aid and all these sorts of things which erm  which are erm a step towards, I mean I'm not saying they're directly 
You can encourage it without  how the
Right.
agricultural system works.
So you might actually want to put something of that in to your land reform  
Yeah and, and you can have erm through loans etcetera you can start increasing 
Right.
capital which 
Yes.
you could get into a situation which is beyond managerial farms anyway because you've got more capital  
Are they gonna have the resources to do that though?
From the government.
Ha?
It's from the gov the government  
But where does the government get the money from?
The same place it got the  the erm tt the money for  
twenty er twenty  or something in, in loans.
Well 
I dunno  
wouldn't you, and that's what's  
Well yeah  
Right  questions er on that , yeah, okay.
Erm  going back to your point, we, we are operating within the context of a new democracy, right, which is, is, is broadly a kind of democratic  approach erm I E that it's, it's an indication of a sort of  the bourgeois revolution but within that you're saying it's not just a democratic revolution, it's a new democratic revolution and within that there will be elements of socialism being created.
So we, we are not just creating capitalism per se we are building in that direction er  but there will be elements of socialism there which we can then build on and take us forward.
So our, our land reform is going to have to reflect that so you would expect to see elements, perhaps, of socialisms being created.
Okay.
So, so th th that would be some of the thinking which would lie behind sitting down and, and  and drawing up a, a reform document  a land reform document, in the very late nineteen forties.
Sh I mean to, to my mind, shouldn't the land ownership possibly  one of the key issues cos that is  if you have land ownership and  then you're just paving the way for the new capitalist society and to, you know,according to Marxist theory  which I think is a pretty dodgy one,they have to go from capitalism to achieve socialism  
Right.
socialists , which is just a load of rubbish if you ask  
Okay.
But, but, but, but our experience of the past  
did not get the peasants to support us unless we give them that.
Yeah.
That's right, so that's what I'm 
saying if, if  
want to do that 
abolish land ownership then it would suggest they're going for a ideologically based
Right.
land reform, if they don't it's suggesting it's just another means of obtaining power by fragmenting  
Erm or, or a pragmatic in terms of erm you want to minimize disruption, you actually want to get production going and the way to get production going is to give the peasants  the land themselves.
Yeah, that's right.
Which isn't really erm compatible with social with communism.
I don't see how you can argue it is, I don't see how anyone can.
Right.
Erm but it
Shh 
It would suggest it's just not a transitory stage.
But, but but ending feudalism is the first important stance.
Well that's what they argue, yes.
But I mean feudalism
Okay.
it's hardly communism is it?
Erm no, but you're, at least you're getting out of feudalism.
Well yeah but  capitalism  
But you can't go straight for socialism or communism.
Well that's what they said but why not?
Because
I mean that's just rubbish, they said you have to go to 
capitalism and then, then naturally evolve into socialism  communism.
Well, but we, no we're not saying that, what we're saying is that we  so all we're trying,w w w that they were saying we can't go from  cap er from feudalism to socialism  but we don't want to go just from feudalism to capitalism, we want to go into er if you like a capitalism with socialist characteristics.
We, we want there to be elements of socialism built into the capitalism we're creating which will allow us to go straight into, to socialism in the future.
Mm
And  supposed to see the  superiority of socialism in this capitalist  
what  socialism anyway?
Well there was a, there was a debate  or something and that's when the committee  
Erm  I'm not sh w w well would you really have, have, have worried about that at the time?getting out of feudalism  then why  exactly how you're gonna go from there.
I mean as long you are going  in a way which is setting up  getting through to socialism as soon as possible, I'm not sure  there would be any point in thinking  about those issues until you've got a bit further.
I mean I'm, I  I dunno.
I was just, I mean  did they really believe that  it would, it would just lead straight on to socialism?
I, I, I think they probably believed that, that, that the best way to get into socialism was to begin to create socialist elements from the start, that would facilitate the move  erm  and once you'd got full control, I mean this is where, where there might be kind of bits  you can say that once, once  we, we need to make these assurances to get us out of feudalism.
Once we, once we are out of feudalism and once we have political control we can dictate wherever we want to go  and once we've got full control  we will go into socialism.
But as of, as of nineteen forty eight forty nine, if you'd said  you'd gone into a village, right you guys we're going into socialism, we are gonna create  collective farming  the peasants would have said no.
So there position in nineteen forty nine wasn't re in effect all that secure cos
No.
of the personnel that
Right.
I mean th th th th they were on the way to military security, but were they going, they, they, they recognized they had to carry the population with them.
I think there, there was a genuine democratic element to this that, that it,i i i it wasn't going to be forcible socialism, it was going to be socialism which would come naturally because that would be what the population wanted.
Mm.
And that, that would come  gradually.
Well you, you could do the sort of token gesture of giving them the land like they did in the past, at least that's showing what some sort of  communism
In order to get the support, yes, and to or in order to end feudalism, which was, was the, the priority.
After that it's anybody's guess.
Okay.
Let's, let's have a look at the, the document   
So have you all got one you can  you can see ?
So, article one    feudal exploitation by the landlord class shall be abolished and the system of peasant land ownership shall be introduced in order to set free the rural productive forces, develop agricultural production and thus pave the way for new China's industrialization .
So that the, the, the two main aims are, are stressed there, you are gonna end feudal exploitation  and you are going to create a new system which will set free the force of rural production in order to pave the way for new China's industrialization.
So for, for the first time  the revolution is given an economic goal in that it is to set up industrialization  and in a sense  the ending of feudalism and the creation of industrialization emerge as, as the two forces whereas up until now it has been feudalism perhaps egalitarianism.
So it's  we, we've already, that, that already has changed significantly.
Er you've then got a series on  confiscation  confiscation and retribution of land, so article two, land, draught animals, farm implements and surplus grain the landlords  surplus houses  shall be confiscated.
other, other property shall not be confiscated so you're gonna take all the land, animals, implements from the landlords, you're gonna take their surplus grain, their surplus houses into the countryside but, but nothing else you, you're gonna take from landlords.
Er you're gonna take in rural land belonging to, to shrines, temples, monasteries, churches, schools, organizations etcetera etcetera etcetera   industry and commerce shall be protected from infringement, industrial and commercial enterprises operated by landlords  and the land and properties used by landlords to  greater industrial  shall not be confiscated  erm you, you're worried that if you confiscate them they're simply broken up between people and those productory forces are disbanded.
So  you, you, you're taking  landlords farm assets, but you're not taking their industrial, commercial or urban assets at all.
And then er revolutionary armament d dependents, farmers, workers, staff  professional workers, peddlers and others who rent out small pro portions of land because they're engaged in other occupations, or because they lack the labour power, shall not be classified as landlords.
If the average per capita of land held in such  does not exceed two hundred percent of the average per capita land held in the locality it shall remain untouched.
So there's a group within the village that you are going to allow to own twice  the average  
So you're enshrining inequality within it.
Is there a  a sort of suggestion of reward here?
You know there's some tenants  
Well, er sure but what about  commercial workers and peddlers  and others who  
But there's already inequality by not stripping the landlords of anything but 
Yeah.
Tt  and then we come to rich peasants, land owned by rich peasants and cultivi cultivated by themselves or hired labour and their other properties shall be protected from infringement.
So anything that the landlo er the rich peasant owns and works himself or cultivates by hired labour  you're going to allow to keep.
And, over and above that, small portions of land rented out by rich peasants shall remain un untouched.
In certain special areas the land rented out by rich peasants may be requisitioned in part or in whole with the approval of the people's government at  level or above.
You  special permission to encroach on all of the  rich peasant's land he rents out.
Why do they use the word requisition instead of confiscate?
Does requisitioning have the same connotations as confiscation?
So they are  they're being harsher on landlords but on the rich peasants they're just taking back the land instead of 
requisition, if you're in the position say   then it's like it's for a common cause
Mm.
if you take away some of the  land  confiscate's a punishment.
Yeah.
At the end of the day the effect is the same.
So i it's another, well it may, the effect may be the same but it's another way of drawing distinctions between landlords and rich peasants and you are treating landlords differently from rich peasants.
And then the last  is if the portions of land rented out by rich peasants of a semi-landlord type exceed in size the land held by themselves and by their hired labour the land rented out shall be requisitioned.
But that would seem to imply that only if a rich peasant rents out more land than he owns and works  either by himself or hired labour, he will be able to keep that  all.
So a rich peasant will be able to keep all of the land he was working himself, all the land he was working by hired labour and land that he hired, er that he rented out as long as the amount he, he rented out did not exceed all of the land that he worked himself or  used hired labour.
Pretty generous position for rich peasants isn't it?
That's not clear exactly what that last bit says cos it's not saying like you  all of the land they rent out, but I guess it just means the excess above which
Right.
I think if I was a rich peasant I would be using that to argue that you could take my rented land, it was 
Well so would I.
A leftist nut-case might   
Right, yeah but  fine.
But I mean th there is, if, I mean , that is generous to rich peasants.
It also sort of encourages them to  farm as much land as they can to presumably rent more out.
Yeah.
Right.
Land and other properties of middle peasants, including well to do middle peasants, shall be protected from infringement.
So we, we, we're still working to middle peasants being able to earn twenty five or thirty percent of their income from exploitation, either hired labour or renting out land and we won't touch it at all.
So the, the  the only land that we are taking in  is landlord land  and the land that rich peasants rent out over and above, if er in size larger than the land they are going to continue to work, either themselves or with hired labour.
Er we're not, we're not touching middle peasants at all, they're sacrosanct.
So they're still, they were still keeping to their aims of achieving greater equality, it was just not absolute equality  egalitarianism.
That is   you, you, you're miles away from absolute egalitarianism.
But
to rich peasant economy.
This rich peasant economy ought to benefit the population as a whole because it's increasing production and erm if it becomes more efficient then  the rents won't have to so high  the poor peo poor people benefit.
Yeah but the only thing you're really doing is, is taking away this nominal erm exploitive relationship, you're still gonna be exploiting the  of existing 
Mm.
and you might, you might  but there's still gonna be erm be certain divisions in the society  perpetuating.
I actually think it's, it's, okay it's a more equal society, but it is by no means an equal society you're creating.
So I mean   well let's go on then.
The  distribution of land, all land under  of production  confiscate  with the exception of those to be nationalized  to be taken over by the  Peasant Association, the unified  
distribution to poverty stricken peasants who  their land .
Production landlords should be given an equal share  so that they can make their living by their own labour and thus reform themselves through labour.
Er  land should be distributed by taking  village as a single unit, that should be distributed in a unified manner according to the population therein based on the principle of allotting the land to its present tiller and making necessary readjustments in land held by taking into consideration the amount, the quality and location of land.
So i it, it's the old nous  quantity and quality coming in there.
Er but basically  you're going to give land back to the people who are tilling it because that's what they, they have an attachment to.
Er  and then going on to article twelve  under the principle
of allotting land to the present tiller, land owned by the tiller should not be drawn upon for redistribution.
When rented land is drawn upon for distribution proper consideration sh should be given to the present tiller.
Land he acquires through distribution plus his home land  shall be slightly and suitably more than the land held in arbitrary distribution of the peasants who had little or no land.
should be the present tiller should re retain the approximate average per capita land, land holding in the  in the locality.
So  if you already own land  you would end up with a larger unit than if you owned no land before.
So  we are looking at creating a society with our  rich peasants  who are going to own significantly more than whatever the average is going to be, and significantly more than middle peasants.
We've then got well to do middle peasants, we've got middle peasants  who would in turn 
own more than a part-owner, part-tenant before the revolution, who after the revolution would own more than  a full tenant before the revolution.
Maintaining differentials 
Well basically, apart from landlords and  the  
peasants, there's er something for everybody.
Yes.
But landlords, oh no but they  
Lan lan er and landlords get some land.
Mm.
Mm.
So you are about as far away from absolute egalitarianism as you can get, you are actually enshrining  
You are creating a  system within the countryside  which is based on inequality.
And then there's a, a series of er  oh and they add er er during  the people's governments or at or above the  may in accordance with the local land agency set apart certain land bound to be nationalized and used for the establishment of experimental farms  or one or more county's or model state farms, so there's provision for the creation of so a form of socialism over the countryside but it's, it comes a long way down the list.
Quite token isn't it?
And very token, mm.
So our final document when, and this is, this is issued in June nineteen fifty, we are in power, we are a communist government  and our land reform  is one which enshrines inequalities, it protects middle peasants  it in effect minimizes what it can give to the poor.
There is, there is no egalitarianism whatsoever.
There is very little provision, there is, there is token provision for the creation of socialism.
And, and this is what revolution has produced.
At precisely the point where we could have been at our most radical we are at our least radical, this is the least radical document that we've come across.
Are you happy with this?
Not particularly but I  understand that er it is, you now have the whole of China which  small areas  erm relatively small areas, you've now got the whole thing, I mean if you start initiating very radical reforms, as you say you don't have the personnel or the resources to erm to prevent a, you know, a big change  disruption.
Yeah 
Presumably you've gotta start somewhere haven't you?
You know  you've gotta start somewhere, you can't just , you've gotta start somewhere 
Yeah but the  
establish the principles
This is where you want to start then?
What?
No that's what I'm saying 
I'm saying that you know  you, you should er perhaps try to establish some  underlying principles to your policy.
But isn't there, isn't there a big difference between  sort of recognizing the faults of past land reforms and advocating something like this?
Why?
I mean it's not merely recognizing that past land reforms didn't work, it's a totally different policy.
Th th th this in effect is creating capitalism in the countryside.
Mm.
You've got private owned , you've got inequalities.
So the  
creates capitalism.
That's only because you're looking at it in a very short- term perspective, they, the way they saw the communist revolution was by a very long drawn out process  and so it wasn't that the revolution had just created this was, this was an important step in order to lead to their ultimate goal.
And it just goes to show that the Communist Party were very forward looking but 
I, I would, I would be very surprised if the communists understood how  deterministic idea of erm some sort of progression, I think     you can't really say in about ten years' time we're gonna be here 
So it was pragmatic but it could also fit into their ideology in that how, that if they'd gone straight for socialism 
Now come on, this, this is disgraceful.
There's no  this is a disgraceful 
No but if they'd gone straight for 
document for a communist party to base land reform on.
There's no ideology  at all.
Absolutely, absolutely none.
I think it's only pragmatic in that  it's maintaining production levels.
Or helping production but 
So is this what, they certainly ?
Yeah, this is it.
This is  
That's 
No, no
No but I mean the basis of it was presumably landlord out and China was based around this
Yeah.
Well it was for the next  two years.
They didn't  
No, no.
Oh right.
I mean this, these, these, these 
Well that's alright then.
No, I mean we would, no  
So I mean this is just another basic erm  
Yeah.
Well in fact it, it it has in fact gone full circle because through the nineteen fifties you went through to co-ops to collectives to communes which lasted through to nineteen seventy eight, the communes were then disbanded and you're back, now, after reform which took very much system.
But, you know, if, if, if I'd have put, when we, when we started to talk at the beginning of this term we had at the beginning a general discussion about what are we gonna put in land reform, if I'd have come along to s to you and I'd said well I think we should do this 
We'd of laughed.
Right.
And I, I, I, I, I, I would not have endeavoured to persuade you that this was going to be  the land reform document that was, that  this is it.
It doesn't surprise me that they did it.
But this isn't this is it?
I mean you said two years later  change.
Ah well sure but then the whole lot goes, but, but, but, but, but this was, this was the document, I mean the way this was put forward, this is going to last us through into the foreseeable future.
Erm  you know,th th th this er er it was a medium term horizon on this at the time.
Are you saying that they didn't mean what they said then?
And that  I mean cos Mao said that how that you needed to have a moderate policy, that was the correct one 
Absolutely.
in order to ha to achieve one's goals, are you saying that how look well you've just got to assume that they were wrong  that they didn't mean what they said?
I mean it's perfectly 
Yeah.
legitimate to think that how that they did think that this was a short-term goal in order to achieve their long-term  objectives.
One, one might argue that  erm one might argue that there is a cynical implication thereupon, one might argue that  but, but in i i in exactly the same way at the moment you might argue that all the assurances they've given on Hong Kong are, are not worth the paper they're written on and, and, and as soon as the, soon as you get through to nineteen ninety seven they'll walk in.
Er  are, are you saying no that they, they are not  er
But you see they wouldn't have been able to realize their goals in nineteen forty nine.
I mean, okay 
Why not?
supposing if they had 
fifty they could, they could have gone  they could have gone  
But could they?
Were th were the peasants ready for it?
Is that what the peasants wanted at that time?
Ah.
Well okay bu but in that sense are you saying that the learning experience was such that the peasant was so conservative and reactionary and so  was all you could do?
Yeah which peasants are you talking about?
Mm.
Are you talking, saying the peasant, I mean it doesn't mean anything does it, the peasant?
Mm.
all peasants.
I mean it may just depend upon how secure the 
How, how would you have felt as a poor peasant  
I mean it really does depend upon how secure they were and how much, how much support,ge genuine support they had of the, the masses as a whole, because if they didn't then there's no way, and people weren't calling for them to establish socialism at that time were they?
Would they have known what socialism was?
Exactly.
And so how can the Communist Party 
But I mean  
just say right, we're gonna do this, this  
Just because they don't know what it  socialism  
theoretical concept or something, they might have known that they wanted  
Yes but it's the basic underlying concept 
capitalism and becomes rich as the we western world then th they'll be all for that 
No, I just find that  really difficult  because they didn't have the means at that time to achieve it.
I mean we've already established the fact they didn't have, they didn't have the personnel to 
.
Yes they did.
They were in power.
They were in power but I mean who's to say that the pe there's not gonna be a civil war and they'll be thrown out of power.
So why did they think that they had the er  means to do it in nineteen forty seven?
You know when they said, when they went for a very radical policy  
Well perhaps because they were more idealist and that now they're becoming more realist but they're still  erm I mean they're learning from their past mistakes and they've seen that right so we have to have a moderate policy which is gonna take us a little bit further towards socialism.
They're not totally contradicting their ideals.
Oh yeah  
It confirms our suspicions
at the last gasp we were right.
It's all this absolute power corrupts actually isn't it?
Mm.
Erm the, the people who  did Mao ?
Or ?
Well I mean  there, there, there's no question about nineteen forty nine absolutely non no documents  could have come out unless they had Mao's approval.
Mm.
Er
Did he shoot the other people involved by any chance?
that's behind this
Right.
erm
I E it's the same person who comes up with  
I mean yeah as you say he's very high personable person, there must be some reason behind it  er and a lot of the theoretical reasons that he says of 
of ideological progression, maybe he thought that, that, that erm the only, ultimately the only way to capitalis er to communism was through capitalism and he needs to establish a period of capitalism first.
Sure yes.
And that's what sort of Marx said.
So that 
Yeah.
yeah but it doesn't mean that they're selling out completely does it because it
Mm.
it means that it's just, it's a realization of, of the progression of communism  is to establish a capitalist phase.
Okay.
communism rather a, a weak theory doesn't it?
It's like saying  
Well Mao would do anything  the Communist Party, let's make it capitalist society.
No because if you look at Marxist writing it's,i it's, you go through certain stages and you can't achieve  
That's right.
And that's what's happening to us now  
That's just, that's just  but why does it have to happen?
It doesn't.
If they really wanted they could've just gone straight for it.
If they'd really wanted to.
They wanted to make it work though and they couldn't have made it work unless  they had had the  I mean the right conditions to do so.
You could have you could have made it work.
You could've made it work if the peasants if the peasants were revolutionary, if the peasants had  changed their value system and weren't  and that  there were very few who were still working within the  economy.
So er 
Are are you saying this is all that was possible because the peasant really was a capitalist at heart?
Well it was very likely that this policy was gonna succeed 
In what?
and they was gonna take a bigger risk, in keeping  them in power   so that they can achieve  their longer term ends.
But sh sh sure they can succ succ they can succeed in creating capitalism, it, it  it, it might succeed in  paving the way for new China's industrialization  but we've gone a long way from any  any ideological position, we've gone a long way from  well what is in the best material benefiting class of the poor peasant now  the poor peasant is not gonna get very much out of this.
It seems as if a disillusionment, the communists are trying you know, trying policies 
Yeah.
and they're still not bloody work what can we do?
Okay well  we're in a really bad situation, I mean we can achieve something at least and perhaps  oh perhaps communism doesn't work after all, they just seem to be doubting their own beliefs and what they've read.
And that's the only way I can see a way through this, thinking okay they've got this ideology, they've tried it twice and it still hasn't worked.
Let's go back to the drawing board and try something else.
Cos this, this is definitely not communism in any sense.
Right.
I mean  does, does this document surprise you?
I mean is 
Yes.
is that what you thought the nineteen forty nine revolution was all about?
I'm not surprised it's come back erm  to, to a sort of right  is this an expression of mass mind do you think?
What do you think?
Cos if it is  communist behaviour  
There is, no there's no mass  argument because you've got 
Why not?
this different situation
that's not mass minded.
Well it's quite, I'm sure that I'm sure, I'm sure that a lot of, I'm sure the rich peasant 
Well there's about eight people  
cos really they're the only f you know they'll be going yeah that's my mass line alright  
Well of course it is, yeah  but that's not  thing is it?
Well, it is for them you see,
there, there's no such thing as an absolute mass line, the mass line in particular  two types of people.
No that's not a mass mind then is it?
Exactly.
well there's no such thing as a mass line then is there?
but anyway we, we, we'd better stop there.
But I think it's important we've, we've now got  what  what the policy was.
On the face of it it looks very much as though this is erm   very little social justice   
what, what I hope we'll do next week is to, is to take that idea up and to see maybe why this policy came through  erm and we'll look at the, like the arithmetic of that as to, as to how much money there was, how much land there was in fact.
Mm.
How you could actually achieve a distribution.
So I think for next week  I'd like to be looking in some detail, there are two sources on this one is, is  and the other is ,tho those two are crucial in terms of understanding or, and   and that those are crucial in terms of understanding erm why this  policy document .
Er who's doing next week?
If, if you're stuck for them come and see me cos I've got them 

E to the minus nought point three.
Oh.
Well it's E times itself nought point three times.
Minus nought point three times.
Minus 
Yeah well the minus  
How do you multiply some Thanks.
How do you multiply something by itself a erm a minus number of times.
Same as you do it a plus number of times except the other way round.
the other way round?
Erm 
On the other side of the scale basically.
On the other side of the scale.
I mean, once i negative numbers themselves are they don't exist.
Mm.
I mean, it's just a a figment of someone's imagination.
Anybody can use them to get  
Mm.
It makes life easier.
It's once you try and when you think, Well they must be real and I'm missing the point.
Now what do they really mean.
You know, there's sort of minus forty three bricks in my house.
Mm.
he's off his jump sort of thing.
Mhm.
Erm multiply something together s Well say, ten to the six, that's ten multiplied by itself 
That's 
a lot of times.
Mhm.
How many tens are there altogether?
Six  
Six.
Okay ten to the minus three?
Well that's ten multiplied by itself a lot of times.
How many tens are there altogether?
Minus three.
Oh yes?
Ooh yeah.
Well it doesn't doesn't really mean much does it.
It's a  load of rubbish really.
Mm.
But it works.
It does work.
And it gives us the right answers.
So where did we get ten to the minus three from?
Ten to the minus three?
Where did it How did we s we come up with this idea of ten to the minus three?
Because it's giving us a value whether it be a value which  
Why did you Why did you decide on minus three.
Let's s let's say if we have erm Well what does ten to the minus three mean?
It's ten times itself minus three  times .
There's no other way  really you can describe it .
Okay let's say we have Now we won't use X we'll make it even simpler we'll use two.
Mhm.
Two cubed times two to the fifth.
What does that come to?
Er s two to the eighth.
Right, so you added those, two to the three add five.
Mhm.
And you do that because what does two cubed mean?
Two times itself three times.
Right.
Times two the fifth is
Two itself five times yeah.
Right, we won't bother counting them we'll just 
Mhm.
say, there are five of them along there.
Yeah.
And there are three of them along here so how many have we got altogether multiplied b well we've got three add five.
Yeah.
Okay.
Two to the three add five.
That's okay.
Now if we have let's say two to the five, divided by two to the three.
two to the two.
What does it mean?
Two times two times two times two times two.
Mm one, two, three
One, two, three, four, five  
That's it.
Mm.
Over two times two times two.
Now why did we did we subtract this three from that five.
Cos we're cancelling.
Mhm.
We can cancel those three on the bottom.
Yeah.
And how many we're left with?
Two.
Five take away three, two.
Two to the five
minus three.
Excuse me.
Now try this one.
Two to the three, over two to the five.
Mm.
Okay we're going to cancel the twos.
But what 
Mhm.
we do what we did here, we cancelled all the twos on the bottom, with as many as it would cancel on the top.
So we cancel all the twos on the bottom, right that's good, yeah that goes, yeah that's wh Oops, what do we do with these?
Well
Put in some imaginary twos yeah.
We're two short on the top to do the complete cancel.
We're two missing if you like.
Mhm.
And we just call that, because it works,
Yeah.
This thing of subtracting, we carry on doing it even when it goes negative.
So we say, Well this is
Two to the minus two .
Two to the That's it.
Two to the three, minus a f a five.
Mhm.
Two to the minus two.
What does two to the minus two mean then?
In this case it's when it's been cancelled down, there was two more needed than
Right.
than there was in the first  place  .
Right.
I mean that's a good way of putting it.
That's exactly 
Mhm.
what it does mean.
Mm.
That when we cancelled it all down on the bottom, we were two short on the top.
Yeah.
So it's just a a notation.
And it's not a negative number at all, it's a positive number.
Mhm.
But it's got this funny thing in, a negative index, so what value is, what's the value of two to the minus two?
Erm  it's sort of nought minus  that figure.
It's two to the minus Sorry yeah .
No it's not a negative number.
We'll put it's sign in front of it so we can just make sure of that.
We started off with a positive number here, and a positive number there, and we divided one positive number by another positive number.
We got a positive answer, but we got this funny bar .
I mean in in logs log tables they'd write it this way.
Cos two to the two isn't a brilliant example, let's let's think what would this mean?
Ten to the minus two.
What would be the value of that?
It's just ten times itself
Mm.
Two times in a minus direction.
It's not minus  
not minus.
Try it with your calculator, see what it comes to.
Erm doing a log?
Just do row 
Mm.
te erm
ten two.
X to the X to a power.
What does it give you?
Point nought one.
Point nought one.
Okay.
Try ten to the minus one.
Have a guess first, what do you think ten to the minus one will come to?
Point one.
Right.
Okay.
Erm so have a guess at what ten to the minus six will comes to.
Er point  Well six zeros one.
Ten to the
Er five zeros one sorry.
Good.
Ten to the minus one, had no zeros before the one.
Ten to the minus two has got one.
Ten to the minus six will have five.
It's a positive number, but it's a fraction.
What would one over ten squared come to?
Erm   
Mm work it out in your head.
Right you've done it there.
One over ten squared's just a hundredth .
What's ten  Right a hundredth.
Mm.
Well that was interesting wasn't it?
What would one over ten come to?
Erm point one.
One 
Ten to the one.
ten squared.
What would one over 
It's just like an inverse it's of that number  
Right.
Mm.
What would one over a million come to?
A millionth.
So  what would one over a thousand come to?
It'd be nought point nought nought one.
Okay.
One over a thousand is a thousandth.
And that would be ten to the 
Power of three.
Okay.
So, if someone gives you like something like this say, erm ten to the minus eight, and you want to know I mean you keep seeing this .
Negative num that minus sign is the thing that when you've almost certainly got recollections of .
Mhm.
eight take away five, yeah okay, I can do that.
Five take away eight, I can't do that.
And then one day, they've been telling you for years, You can't do that.
One day they suddenly say, Well yes you can actually, we call them minus numbers, negative numbers, directed 
Mhm.
numbers.
Temperature numbers.
Oh hang on.
. And it sort of conditions you a bit, so later on whenever you see it, you sort of get hypnotized mesmerized 
Mhm.
by that by Oh not gonna like this one.
So get rid of it.
As soon as someone gives you ten to the minus eight, you can say, Well if I want to convert that into real money,
Gives you one over ten to the eight.
Okay.
So that is not affecting the sign.
It's still a positive number.
It's a positive number still.
I mean you could have a negative number to the minus eight.
You could have minus ten to the minus eight.
If you wanted but that is not affecting the sign of the number.
That's just telling you, when  did the cancelling, we were eight short on the top.
Mhm.
So in other words we got  eight tens left over on the bottom.
Mhm.
So it's one over ten to the eight.
Erm so going back to this one, E to the minus nought point three.
What's that equal to?
One over E to the point three.
Right, equals one over E to the plus nought point three.
And what's E to the point three?
Roughly?
What's what's E as a number?
Just approximately?
Oh er two point seven something or other isn't it?
point three.
Mm.
Okay.
Call it three.
And what does something to the power point three, mean?
Roughly a third.
Does it.
Erm
What does what does a hundred to the power half mean?
It's  let me get this straight now  
Okay.
It'll be a hundred to the pow erm a hundred times a half of itself so fifty.
No  No.
Oh.
It won't be.
Now let's just have a look at what we're doing.
You've looked at numbers all your life.
Mhm.
Counting numbers, lovely.
Know where you are with those.
Then you get negative numbers, then you get fractions.
And eventually you think you've just about got it sussed and they throw in indexes.
You just about got these worked out.
Oh not too bad these indexes, if you multiply then you just add them, if you're dividing 
Mhm.
you take them away.
Raise them to a power, then you do multiply.
So of one level up from what you think or one level down from what you think you should be doing.
Mm.
And then they start throwing in fractional indices and negative indices.
Well we've looked at negative indices.
They're not negative at all.
They're one overs.
They're really the fractions.
Mhm.
Okay so what do the fractional indices mean?
Well we know the rules.
The thi th See the thing about maths is it's very easy to learn the rules but but hard to understand when we're doing things that don't make sense.
Mhm.
Erm so very easy to learn the rules for arithmetic, like say the rules for adding.
Three add four is always the same as four add three .
Four add three.
No problem.
Erm seven take away three, that's not the same as three take way seven.
Mhm.
You sort of learn things like that.
Times, that's okay, three times four, the same as four times three.
But not the same when you divide, it goes a bit odd.
mu multiplying using indices couldn't be simpler.
Add the indexes, indices  
Mhm.
which do you prefer to call it?
Well .
Indexes.
Call it indexes it's simpler.
Add the indexes.
Right.
So if I've got the number here, equals a hundred to the power half.
I'm going to multiply it by another number which also happens to be a hundred to the power a half.
And what's the answer?
A hundred to the power of one.
Right.
A hundred to the power of half, Add a half cos we're multiplying which is a hundred to the power one, which is just a hundred.
So that number is the same as this one, they're both  whatever they mean, they're both the same cos they're both a hundred to the power half.
So what is this number, that you multiply it by itself and it makes a hundred?
Ten.
Ten okay.
Erm so a hundred to the power half, is actually equal to ten, let's say if we did erm sixteen to the power half, times sixteen to the power of a half.
What would that come to?
Sixteen to the power of one.
Okay, so what does sixteen to the power a half mean?
What is sixtee or w what value has it got?
Is it a square root?
That's it.
I mean, you don't need to ask sort of why or what or we've n we've got this rule  multiplying .
Yeah.
We use it, and we find out that the square root of anything comes out as half of it.
So sixteen to the half
Oh excuse me.
square root of sixteen.
Square root of sixteen.
We had E to the power of one third, times E to the power of one third, times E to the power of one third.
Means E to the power of one.
That comes out to E. So what does E to the one third mean?
Erm E well it's cube root E.
Right.
the cube root, third root of E.  So what would erm  what would let's say  sixteen to the power of one quarter be?
Erm er  how you describe this one.
Erm  the f I suppose the fourth 
Go on.
root.
The fourth root.
Yeah.
Mm.
That was the 
Of sixteen.
the second root, the twoth root.
special name for it the square root.
Mhm.
And that's the cube root, cos when we cube something it  fourth root.
so and what would that come to?
What would the fourth root of sixteen be?
Eesh erm Oh hell's bells.
It's about two isn't or  something ?
It's very very close to two, yes.
If we if you're not happy with fourth roots, you could do square roots.
Mm.
It'd be the square root of the square root.
If we had sixteen to the power of half, what's that?
What does that mean?
Erm well it's the square root of sixteen.
Square root of sixteen.
That's some number, whatever it is,
Mhm.
we might not be able to find the square root of sixteen, but whatever it is, it is a number.
Mhm.
just treat it as a number.
And we can raise that to the power of a half.
Mm.
Means find the square root of this number.
Well what's this number, this number is the square root of sixteen .
Now what do we do with indexes when we're raising to a power?
Now you times them.
Right, so we should finish up with
Sixteen to the fourth well the one over four yeah.
One over four.
Right?
So what's this?
This is the square root of the square root.
Mm.
Mm.
And that's what the fourth root means.
And erm  comes out to two.
Two square it, you get the four, and then square four   
Sixteen.
What would So we know what sixteen to the one quarter means, what about sixteen to the three quarters.
Now it doesn't mean anything now in terms of multiply sixteen by itself three quarters times  That's gone.
That's what we started 
off with when we were doing the nice simple stuff with positive whole numbers for indexes.
But then we developed it a bit further like we did with negative numbers.
Mhm.
You know, three add four, four add three, yeah this is fine.
And then we go beyond that, and develop it into this sort of slightly murky negative area.
And then we develop this further.
So what would that mean?
How could you have finished up with an answer like sixteen it's a bit like integration this where we're working backwards .
With a great deal of difficulty.
What would you have been doing to what, to comes up with
Erm  Mm
Have a look at what happened here, and what were we doing there.
The only thing I could think of
Go on.
would be
Just play about with it, see what you get.
Three quarter.
That's awkward.
That really is awkward.
Well c I could make it erm nine sixteenth if you like if it's
yeah.
that's any more help.
Erm I'll make a guess.
Go on.
Good.
At that
Right,
erm
So we started off with that.
What would you do to it to turn it into this?
Into that.
Times it by three.
Mm.
Along the right lines.
On the right lines.
What were you timesing by three?
It's your actual
What were you multiplying by three?
S erm  that.
Were you?
That's a num 
That's a number.
Were you multiplying that number by three?
A quarter.
Right .
Oh, sixteen to the power of one over four, yeah.
Now were you multiplying t that's a number, sixteen It actually comes 
Mhm.
to two as you said.
Yeah.
Were you multiplying two by three, or were you multiplying something else by three to finish up with sixteen to the three quarters?
It's the quarter itself .
You were multiplying the index by three .
Mhm.
So if you're multiplying an the index of something by three Where you had say I had X squared
Yeah.
and I did something strange to is and it became X to the six, what would I have done to it.
You'd have well basically timesed it by three.
No I wouldn't  
Timesed the index by three.
Yeah.
I would have timesed the ind 
Mm.
And what what do you do when you times the index by three?
Erm Oh, you're doing this again you're you're
Right.
raising the power.
Raise it up to the power.
Of three.
So X squared to the power of three
Mhm.
is X to the two times three .
Times three.
So sixteen to the fourth 
Times three.
Right or cubed, raised to the power three, is equal to sixteen to the 
Sixteen to the thr 
one quarter times three.
Which is
Three over four.
sixteen to the three quarters.
Mhm.
Now sometimes they might give it you as sixteen to the three quarters and you can sort of read that off, What am I doing here?
Well look the the one quarter part of it means,find the fourth root of sixteen and then the three means cube your answer.
Yeah.
So sixteen to the three quarters is find the fourth root and cube it or if you like cube sixteen and then find the fourth root.
It doesn't matter, it comes out to the same thing.
Erm they're not always as helpful as that.
They might say, sixteen to the nought point seven five.
And you think, What on earth does that mean?
It's still three quarters though.
It still means three  
Three over four.
So if you might get something like erm We'll go away from sixteen, we'll use two for a change.
We'll use ten.
Ten to the erm let's say, nought point nought three.
Well, what we've really got is ten to the three hundredths.
Mm.
Which what does that mean?
Right, you've got ten to the power of one hundredth.
Okay and what does ten to the power of one hundredth mean?
Right you've got ten to the power of one hundred.
Okay and what does ten to the power of one hundredth mean?
Erm  basically
Something not very pleasant.
It'd be the hundredth root.
Which I would not like to have to work out .
The hundredth root of ten.
Okay.
And then well we haven't got one 
Times ten.
hundred, we've got three hundred.
Mm.
Times it by 
So the index is times
three.
The index is times three .
.
So we must have raised that to the power three.
So ten to the nought point nought three, is the hundredth root of Find the hundredth root of ten and then cube it.
Yeah.
Or if you like, cube ten then find the hundredth root of that.
Erm and that's all this means.
So just to make it a little bit more exciting  And then this is this is it finished off then.
You you know it all.
Ten to the minus nought point nought three.
Well what on earth does that mean?
Mm.
Well  
Let's let's slow it down a bit.
Break it down a bit to something that's a bit easier to  
Oh dear.
Right, ten to the three.
Right no problem.
Got that one.
Right.
Right ten to the minus three.
Right 
What's that.
Ten to the minus three, erm  is basically, when it's been broken down
and we've got three left
On the bottom.
on the bottom  
And so on the bottom  On the bottom we've got three left over.
Yeah.
That's it.
Mhm.
So write it was just  
One over that.
What about ten to the three quarters?
What does that mean?
Right, it's ten to the power of one over four.
So it's ten to the one over four.
All raised to the power of three.
Yeah, so  what's ten to the minus three quarters?
Ah.
Ah.
Mhm.
Good I like that.
We're getting somewhere.
Ah.
We're getting not  just somewhere a very long way away ,
It's ten to the power of three over four.
Mhm.
.
That's it.
That's it.
Horrible way of putting it  but it's  .
as soon as you get a negative index anywhere, if someone says, Oh we've got erm X to the minus nought point six.
Well let's get rid of that thing before we start thinking it's minus X or something.
Well we'll just put that one over and that's got rid of that bar if you like as long as it 
Mhm.
has the bar there.
One over X to the nought point six .
X to the nought point six.
And then we can work out what on earth X to the nought point six means.
Well I'll leave that to you.
What does X to the nought point six mean then?
X to the nought point six is erm  X to the power of  six over ten.
Right.
And what does that mean?
What does that come to?
Right
What what how did we finish up with X to the six over ten.
What were we doing?
X to the tenth.
Right we raised it.
point six.
Okay.
So we might have finished Is is X to the is X to the six over ten, the same as X to the three over five?
Yes.
What does this mean?
Hang on.
Er oh..
What does this mean?
This means X to the one over five,
Mhm.
Three times.
Cubed.
Not three times but cubed .
So what this means, is that the same as that?
That's awkward.
That really is awkward.
But that's it that's finished on indexes .
Mhm.
You y erm I'm very very delighted actually you've really picked this up .
Oh right.
It's wonderful, it is.
Sometimes this can take several lessons.
I mean it's not easy it's not there's nothing obvious about it, it's all  what's this weird stuff we're doing now?
But we use it in everything but particularly 
Yeah.
in engineering.
Erm you need to be really on top of indices particularly negative indices and particularly negative fractional indices and usually expressed as a decimal because when you're looking at circuits and stuff like that, you'll get the erm you know, the answer will be given in this sort of form.
They are the same.
Okay.
So what how how did you what was your what was your first 
what was your first thought about it?
Your first thoughts?
Well the first thing that normally would run through me head would be, yes it is the same, cos I've seen that.
And I know they're the same.
Right, it's  
I'm breaking it down to the cake again.
It's the fractions of the cake.
Right.
Okay.
It's got to be because three fifths is always the same as six tenths.
Ah but  because it doesn't mean this now .
Then you see that.
That's right.
Yeah.
So one of the best ways to to sort of get it fixed in your mind, is try it with something.
Well let's try erm
That's what I ended up  doing  
Well that's what everyone does.
Erm  sort of how high level they're at at maths.
When they 
Mhm.
get to a bit where they get stuck.
They sort of come down 
Pull it down a bit.
Pull it down to something a bit more real that you can get hold of.
I mean if you're doing things like er you're working with X or something, erm and you want to know does Well so say you're working with X times and Y and you want to know
You don't know if it does i is X is X times Y always the same as Y times X?
And you think, Well they're only numbers.
So  a three times two 
throw in a three and a two   
Would that always be the same as a two times a three?
Yes of course it would.
Well these are only numbers.
And they're following the same laws so yeah that should be.
But 
So it works.
No?
if someone just says sort of, straight off and asks you especially if you you think, Ooh he's asking me here maybe they're not, maybe they are.
Is X times Y the same as Y times X. Oh .
What what's this X and Y?
They're numbers.
Put some numbers in, try it.
So what numbers did you put in here to try it?
It was two  actually .
Good, it's a good one to use, two.
So what did you try?
Right.
Two to the six tenths.
I did it to the fir first one.
Right.
Erm, put it in there, and thought, well a fifth of two.
Fifth root of.
Mm.
Of two.
Fifth root of two.
So something that you had to multiply by itself and get five of them all multiplied together and it equals two.
Erm and it was as What was it I got?
Bububububub 
You worked that out in your head?
Fifth root of two.
I do I think so.
It was something like that I just remember thinking hang on this works.
I was 
you could get a you could get a job on the stage doing that.
No I was pulling it through this, that's what I was doing.
I was working it out through this.
Right.
Mm.
And I thought, well I'll break it down so That was what it was, I'd pulled all the fractions together, put them into a common denominator.
Mm.
I thought well, there's two of them to every one of them.
Yeah.
So double that's six.
Six tenths so it's the same.
Right.
Oh right, I mean I'm I'm I'm not disputing that.
If if if you're talking of pieces of cake, then three fifths, six tenths, there's no difference .
Is the same thing.
Yeah.
Right?
That's that's one thing, but is finding the tenth root of something and then raising to the power six, or raising something to the power six and then finding the sa the tenth root, is that the same as finding the fifth root and cubing it or cubing it and finding the fifth root.
That's not as obvious.
That's what we're looking at, these I mean normally, normally they're the same.
And we're not bothered .
Yeah.
But are they the same here?
I mean would it be the same if we had ten and we raised it to the three quarters.
What do we do with that?
That means we w w what does ten to the three quarters mean?
It's ten to the power of a quarter.
Right.
The fourth root of ten and then 
Is 
cube it.
Or we can do it the other way round, it doesn't matter.
We could have started off with ten cubed and found the fourth root of that.
Mhm.
It still gives us the same answer cos we multiply to get the indices.
But would that be the same as ten to the nought point seven five.
Which is ten to the power seventy five and then find the hundredth root of it?
Oh God.
Or ten sorry find the hundredth root of ten and raise that to the power seventy five.
I mean these two are equivalent cos our rules say so for multiplying the indices .
Yeah.
It's  
But is is that you know, is this three quarters, is that the same a is ten to the power three, all raised to the power and then find the fourth root, is that the same as ten to the seventy five and then find one hundred.
Your calculator probably won't go up to ten to the seventy five.
Erm.
But you could try it on these.
On the six tenths and the three fifths.
With ten, couldn't you.
Mm.
Start off with ten and find  ten to the six, ten to the power six.
and then find the tenth root of that.
Er does my calculator like going backwards?
Don't think it will.
Has it got a tenth root?
Well you've got some number in there, so what do you want, you want that number to a power, to the power of one tenth.
Mm.
So.
X Y er one tenth.
Er point one.
That's it.
.
There we are.
What does that come to?
Three point nine eight something or other.
Three point nine eight something or other.
okay.
Put that in the memory.
Right, so that was
That's that one.
ten to the six over ten.
Right, now now try ten to the three over five.
Ten to the three fifths.
Ten X Y
So ten start off with ten and cube it first.
Yeah.
So we've got ten cubed .
And then find the fifth root of that.
X Y erm   Yeah.
Three point nine eight something or other  so it's the same .
So it's the same.
So it is the same.
I mean it it's just as well.
It's just as well 
Just check, do a memory recall.
Yeah.
It's the same.
because otherwise we would be in an awful lot of trouble with these.
Mhm.
If someone says it's sort of, Oh it's six tenths, and  Oh well I could cancel that down can't I.
I can make that ten to the three fifth.
And somebody else'll say, Oh we'll put that as erm ten to the point six.
And if these weren't all equivalent, we would be in a lot of trouble, but they are.
Mm.
So that's an interesting thing.
If you multiply these out, and even when they're fractional.
So you raise it to a power, multiply the indices, when it comes out as a fraction, it doesn't matter how you
I mean if you wanted to be really obscure
Yeah.
you could put write something as ten to the minus erm  three percent.
. What's three percent?
Well three percent's just three over a hundred .
Three over a hundred yeah.
So ten to the minus three o No one would dream of putting of using percent.
It is a fraction.
I suppose you could use it if you wanted to.
So back to the back to E.
Right.
Erm I lost your page.
Here it is.
What does E to the minus nought point three mean?
I'd like you without using your calculator, just to get some idea of how big that is.
We'll take E as three.
We'll forget about the E and we'll put a number in instead.
And we'll say, Three
Mhm.
to the minus nought point 
Point three.
three recurring.
Okay.
make it any more.
I won't say any more easy, but any less awkward.
Right,Okay so that's three  jujujujuja Ee, where's the start?
Erm
Well what's the most awkward thing about this?
Well the first thing is to   minus.
over .
Right, get rid of that.
Good.
So it's one over three to the
Mm nought point three.
Right.
And it's nought point three recurring.
Right.
Erm
give you a clue.
We'll get rid of the decimal and 
Sign 
change it into
.
the power of a third.
Good.
Excellent.
And then what does that mean in in real money.
Without all these indexes?
Erm dudududududududu That's where you're putting it now.
Erm
If it was three to the half, what would you change it to?
I'm trying to think back now erm
Well when we were doing that  Okay?
A hundred to the half times a hundred to the half, made a hundred.
And you said, Oh is it the
Oh of course that's right.
Yes.
Is it the square root?
And it was.
So this time cos it's a third 
A cube 
It's a third root.
It's that.
Right.
So taking E as about three, this answer 
Mhm.
that you've got is roughly one over In fact we can now go back to having E again.
Erm so you can just put your E in and you can get to one over E to the and there's your cube root of E. Okay?
Erm.
put three in.
Put three in.
Yeah.
Put three in, find it's cube root and then find one over that.
Was that square root twice?
Mm.
Okay.
Well well well why wasn't it right?
I mean don't worry about, Oh well that wasn't right.
Cos that'd be the the root to the fourth that.
That would be the fourth root.
Right.
Mm.
Erm ah there is a cube root.
Oh .
That's a shame.
Ah.
Saved.
Where's where's your cube root by the way?
There a little tiny one.
I hadn't it before .
Ah now not a lot of calculators have that .
Right er and
So hang on a minute right.
You've got one point four four twoish.
Okay, do it again
Without using that.
A and this time this this just this time just raise it to the one third and see if you get the same answer, to check it is the cube root.
Er  three.
Mm .
Used three yeah, three.
Three X Y point three.
Yeah.
answer.
Good.
That's good and can you t did you write .
I would have had to change it
Right.
if it hadn't been.
Er
Right now Okay.
That was that's raising it you know raise it to the one third, you find the cube root.
Mhm.
But the actual answer you got wasn't raising it wasn't point three recurring, it was point nought three.
So you start off again with your three.
Put your three in.
Okay and raise that to the power point nought three.
X Y point nought three.
Which is not a lot.
About one.
Roughly.
Right and than, you get one over that.
So basically just  I'd be tempted 
to to inverse it with that.
Mhm.
Yeah, the one over X would that do it?
Yeah.
So one over something a bit more than one, will come out to something a bit less than one .
A bit less than it.
Mm.
Okay?
So that's great but we started off with three there and we should have started off with E. So through imme a this this is intensely repetitive so that you can you're building it up, you're sort of doing it with numbers and then you're doing it more
Mhm.
and so you're seeing where you're going.
So it was .
The answer you got.
Other sheet  
Right other sheet.
Other sheet.
E so we start off with E. Rai it was on actually to the point three not point nought three.
So I got that wrong.
Raise it to the poi to the power point three.
Point three.
And then take one over it.
And what's that come to?
Point seven  
Is that the answer they got in the book?
Point seven four one..
Right.
.
So you had got the right answer.
Mhm.
But going from there
To there.
evaluating that 
I loused up.
on your your calculator, you probably really didn't know what on earth this means
Yeah, I know where I went wrong there.
I can see what I've done there .
Right.
So there's a there's a few things come into this.
One is obviously, being able to use the calculator.
But before you can use the calculator, you need to understand what you're doing and you say, My calculator's got the cube root on it.
I can do cube roots and things.
Well great well what's the cube root mean?
I don't know.
No idea, just  this thing on the calculator.
Mhm.
So once you understand and my calculator can do sort of ten to the minus point four seven.
So can mine but what's it mean?
Yeah.
When would you use it, how would you put things in, what order what would you be doing?
So that's that's the basis really of your sort of higher calculations that you're 
Mhm.
doing in lots of in all sorts of places in the B Tec level come in.
And you'll be trundling along quite happily saying, Yeah I understand this, we're doing that.
and then he'll put some squiggles on the board and he'll say, Well of course this comes to erm seventeen point six.
He m he might sort of put an answer down like this and erm he'll say, Well this this should come to something like seven teen point six times ten to the minus nought point four.
Mm mm mm, what's happening?now you know, you woul it's not standard form, don't confuse it With standard form, you always have integer indices here.
So then you always get just the one thing before the decimal place.
One digit before the decimal place.
One point two three four, times ten to the minus twenty three or something.
Mm.
If you're dealing with erm atoms and stuff like this, this huge or tiny number will come in.
One over ten to the twenty three.
That but that though Watch out because he will 
You should be drawn to that negative index as soon as you see one.
But when 
Mhm.
you do see one, you leave it in because you're going to deal with 
Yeah, one over 
these nice simple laws we've got for indices.
Add them when you're multiplying, times them when you raise them to a power, so we don't want to start changing this to one over and things, because we'll lose that easy way of doing things.
Mhm.
But when we're getting near the answer, or when we've first got the question and we're trying to think about it.
Someone says, now is this a big number or a small number.
W what is that, a big number or a small number.
That's a number in standard form, is it big or small or what?
It's very small.
It's minute.
Right.
If we make it something like one point 
It's nought point and twenty two  
Right.
One times ten to the minus six.
Well what would one times ten to the six be?
Nought point five nought  one.
W that would be ten to the six  
Oh.
plus six  
Yeah.
that's right.
It's a million but erm 
Now that's a million and that's a millionth.
So this
Mhm.
is
Whatever you  call erm twenty four .
That would be a million 
Erm 
million million million.
Yeah.
Okay?
And and and this which is a minus twenty four, is one million million million millionth.
Mm.
Very small.
Yeah.
And I think I think if I had something like that, I'd tend to write sort of zero  
Zero.
Yeah.
But but there are times when that is not zero.
Mhm.
If you're dealing with erm how many you know, how many atoms of Hydrogen do you get in erm well a litre of gas or something,
Yeah.
sort of about ten to the twenty three.
And erm so what would be the volume in in litres of one atom of Hydrogen.
So what it would be 
Mhm.
this it would be something times ten to the minus twenty three.
very small.
Well we expect to be very small.
Yeah.
It's not zero.
Cos we're working  atomic level .
It's still there, yeah.
If you're working at erm how far is it from here to New York and someone  gives you an answer like this like What is it?
About two thousand miles is it?
Someone gives you a sort of two point three four  And you've got about twenty five decimal places of miles 
Mhm.
You'd say, rubbish I didn't even want to know whether it was say two thousand two hundred and twenty six.
Two thousand miles is  near enough.
Yeah.
Yeah?
Not bothered about that, just want an idea.
Er but if you're working round the low end, then you are interested in the tiny tiny differences .
Right, does that help with logs?
Yes.
To understand what Logs are indexes.
For everything that we've done there, all the way through, I should have been saying logs.
If I had of done  you would have been thinking, Ooh ooh  ooh ooh .
like this.
But with indexes it's easier to understand.
Mhm.
Now did you draw I asked you to draw some graphs didn't I.
I was going to and had no graph  paper .
I see.
You should have said.
Yeah it only clicked as you'd gone, when I had to do it.
I was halfway through ,
Aha.
I Yeah.
Ah.
got all these done and then bump.
I've got some graph paper 
car, when someone tries to describe it to you.
Mhm.
You haven't got much chance of really understanding what they're on about,
Mm, no.
saying, Well yeah sort of, I suppose or .
But you can't really follow it.
If they show you a picture, you've got a better chance.
Erm or a a working model with the pistons going up and down and things .
Where it's  
What roughly what it did.
And a real one fine, you can see what's happening then.
Erm so if you're working with logs, if you're working wi I mean if you're working with say, Y equals X squared,
Mhm.
and you want to tell someone something about it, you can give them lots of examples,three, Well it would turn that into nine.
If someone gave you minus four, it would turn that into sixteen.
Yeah.
Erm to someone who knows a little bit about maths,
a good way to explain it to them is draw the graph.
Say, Well that's what it looks like, that's the whole 
Mhm.
function.
They can look at it, in a glance, they've got a picture.
Ah right, I can see what it does now.
Just find a value anywhere on that, I can see the general trends, what's happening.
So with logs, if you can draw a picture and Don't just sort of look at a picture in a book  there's a graph of Y equals log X. Do it yourself.
I mean
Mhm.
It's only take you probably take you about twenty minutes, to do, Y equals log X, just use your calculator.
Mhm.
And Y equals E to the X. And erm draw them on separate ones and then compare them and see what you get.
And then you  staring to understand what  about.
Now integration, did you have any with logs in?
Erm let me think.
I can't remember off hand but I can soon tell you.
Okay.
Cos if we have they'll be in here.
Right,
Mm.
Erm
Brrubububub.
Just  here..
Here's a lovely  a lovely looking expression.
D equals C log to the base E of one plus root L squared plus C squared  
blah blah blah.
Well it would wouldn't it?
Yes.
Oh I see.
What's that mean?
Let's let's see if we can decipher this one.
The others haven't got logs in unfortunately.
Let's start with one, let's start with an easy one.
That hasn't got logs in.
Mhm.
Erm   er Yes we obviously have had them,there's one .
Three X bracket log E
Mm.
five X.
I don't know what we're gonna do with that but at least now you
Ooh God there's another one.
Right, so simultaneous  why don't you i why don't you integrate this log Or why don't  you  erm  
Because I don't know what it is.
What are we doing?
Well let's let's just have a quick look at this one.
What's this describing here?
V equals large V or V nought or whatever you like,
E to the minus R T over L.
Right, er
What would it's what would it's graph look like?
It was number ten somewhere.
Yeah there you are, this one.
Mhm.
no  actual description  of what it was at all.
No, well these are all real, I mean there's one, number nine.
Let's look at number nine,.
Erm working out voltage across a capacitor in a  series .
Okay, so a capacitor is being charged up.
Erm, have you seen the curves for a capacitor charging up?
Once, a while back.
Yes I did.
Erm  Okay so there's
It roughly goes, like that .
There's time and there's your potential voltage.
It starts off at zero voltage at 
Mm.
zero time.
It goes roughly like if you'll pardon the lumps  everywhere .
Oh I'll pardon the lumps.
In fact that's beautiful cos that's what it actually does.
Ideally it doesn't have that wiggle in but actually 
Mm.
it quite often becomes unstable around there.
Yeah.
Okay, that's lovely.
That is exactly what it looks like.
So
That's when it reaches it's peak value  
Sort of sort of never reaches  
Yeah it never quite gets there but.
some time over here it's it's getting.
So that's it's peak value.
Now from this equation, V equal Where are we on?
This one.
Sorry.
Right, V equals one minus this lot.
Right.
That doesn't affect the sign, that negative in the index.
Mhm.
Right, so this is always a positive number, so it's always one minus a positive number.
That this this V here you can think of as V max.
Yeah.
Right.
What's the maximum value
That's
If that V max This describes how it's nearly getting there.
Mhm.
It never actually gets there.
Cos it's always one minus take away E to the Well let's say this thing here, T over C R, comes to about twenty three or something.
Mhm.
One minus E to the minus twenty three.
Which is
One over E to the million million million million sort of thing 
One over E to the twenty three.
Zero  by the time you get to about here 
Yeah, near as  Yeah it's zero .
Forget it.
Forget it, it's not making any difference.
So here or here or here it is really zero  We can never say it actually is 
Yeah, it's so small it's not worth it.
cos we've just got that ti but you could never show it on a graph,
Mhm.
very accurate.
So  Now here when T is small, let's let's say let's put let's put C R equal to one, they're only 
Mhm.
a constant in your circuit, in your electrical circuit.
Yeah.
resistance and  capacitance.
So let's say.
Curr capac capacitance Yeah I for current, C for capacitance.
Okay?
So.
Let's rewrite the formula as something like V equals V max times one minus E to the make that one, minus T.
Mhm.
Yeah?
I mean we could make that one, we could choose the R the R  
so that C times R came to one.
Yeah.
Okay?
What happens here? well if T is nought, we've got one minus E to the
Zero.
zero.
And what's E to the zero come to?
Er Brdubudubum one.
Right.
So that'll be one minus one, comes to zero.
That's good, that works .
Zero.
Which is right.
Yeah.
What about if T goes on for about erm one second, when it's going to be equal to V M one minus E to the minus one.
What does E to the minus one ?
One well, E to the one over one.
Good.
One minus one over E
E to the one.
to the one.
We don't bother about  the one, we just leave it one over E. And E is about three.
So
So one minus a third 
A third 
So after about sort of, after about one second, it's come up to about two thirds .
So about 
Mhm.
after one second it's come up to two thirds of V.
Mhm.
And what happens after two seconds?
Well minus E to the minus two.
And what does that mean, E to the minus two?
Is one over E squared.
Right one over E squared.
One over E squared, take E as about three.
So it's about one over  
One minus one minus one ninth.
Mhm.
Which is about eight ninths.
Yeah.
So after two seconds, it's got up to about
Eight ninths of  the way .
Eight ninths of the way it's going.
And the rest of the times it's you know, it's taking If we could keep going for  
It's just dwindling more and more and more away.
We keep we keep going on for longer and longer but it's taking a lot longer for us to get any closer.
You get most of your stuff done, sort of pretty instantly.
So after three seconds, we On graph paper I mean that that's a good one for you to do on graph paper actually.
Do 
Mm 
that one on your graph because it's a real application that will apply to your work and it's the sort of thing you're going to be plotting anyway.
So you can still understand what's going on with these.
Rather than just putting these numbers into your I mean you will put these numbers into your calculator, but do it with that, leave leave your C R out of it and just keep it as T.
Mm.
So if you kept C R fixed and you happened to fiddle them so it came to one, you could just You You're working out your graph you see you see then.
Erm and when we get E to the minus three?
Then it's one minus one over E cubed.
Okay.
One over E cubed and E is about three so twenty seven.
So we've got about twenty six, twenty sevenths.
Which is getting pretty close to near as dammit now  .
Right and if you take E as about say ten seconds
Yeah.
don't have to go that far, six seconds say.
it's what, it's about ninety nine hundredth of the way.
Well i is it?
After six seconds
W after six?
One minus one over E to the six.
Six.
Eek.
Erm
well have a go see what three to the power os six  
Three to the power of six comes  
It's seven hundred and twenty nine.
Seven hun and then do an inverse of that.
Erm seventy nine  
Inverse.
Erk.
No that ain't right.
It might be.
No okay.
Seven  seventy nine It is.
Inverse,
Yeah so we've got by by 
It's it's something hideous.
six seconds, we've got seven hundred and twenty eight, seven hundred twenty ninths of the way 
And twenty ninths Yeah 
so I mean, after a few seconds forget it  
You can say forget it.
There's hardly any change.
Mhm.
So that's a that isn't a straight logarithmic curve, but that's a thing that occurs in nature a lot and in electrical circuits, that's  a growth curve.
The way it gets most of its growth in the first I mean,
Few seconds.
human growth looks like that as well.
Yeah.
Erm you get most of your you know you The amount of weight and height you put on from say, nought to six months and then six months to two months and by the time you've got to about eight or something.
Mhm.
Your half  well your whatever age it is  
Yeah.
measure kids at eight and say, Oh right you're going to be six foot two, you're going to be five foot ten.
Mhm.
Er because they know that on average unless things change a lot, that they they're following this curve this growth this growth curve.
But try try E to the X as well.
Y equals
E to the X and Y equals log to the base E X. And and that wi with just one in.
Erm  and I think you'll I It's not you know, it's not about following all all this stuff  all the technology stuff in Tech 
Mhm.
engineering, science in general, physics, it's not Anyone can do the maths because you just put it in your in the calculator and if it 
Yeah.
says erm he wants seven to the minus nought point six, well you just put you know, when you're doing X to the Y you put in seven and you put minus nought point six and you get some answer out.
Mm.
Well okay, fair enough.
But then when you get things like that,
Yeah.
And this doesn't tie up with what's in the back of the book.
You don't know whether this was right or not.
No.
But if you can look at that and think, Well minus so it's one over.
It's one over E to the point three.
What's point three, well it's about the cube root of three, or you could sort of try cube root of three 
Mhm.
on your calculator.
And then try one over that.
Oh that's about the answer in the back of the book, so I must have just gone wrong on the last bit here.
And you could you could go back and start working through all this again.
If you So it's knowing where you are, having a good feel, like if erm if I say, multiply two hundred by thirty.
Well let's say I multiply two hundred and twenty two by three hundred and thirty three.
And you try it on your calculator and you get about fifteen billion.
Mm.
Or you get six.
You say, That's obviously rubbish I've done 
Yeah.
something wrong here.
So you know to check it and go back and do it differently and it's the same with this  moved up a level now, that you you keep in keep in charge of it.
So let's have a quick look at your log integrals.
Right.
How do you feel about  integrals and  differentials?
Erm the differentials I'm getting the hang of eventually.
And getting there slowly but surely.
Are you are you leaving it for a day and then trying to integrate them?
Yes I am.
Well what have you what have you done in term Have you got some you've done in terms of differentiating and then integrating back?
Erm to be honest with you I think I've binned them now cos I cleaned up me room.
Okay.
I've only got a couple that I did last week.
Doesn't matter.
Erm try and do a few each week.
Erm which are the most awkward things to differentiate?
Erm 
Don't worry if you can't find any cos I have a bag full here of  awkward differentials.
I've only got a few books on differentiating.
about we're probably due to finish, well we'll just have a quick look at this.
Erm well there we are, here we are.
How about this   
The awkward ones for me are when they start throwing stuff like er
Like what, pick an awkward one out of that lot.
An awkward one out of that lot.
Is  I wish Erm to be honest with you, I find them as awkward as hell.
Where you've got a division in them.
They do 
Okay.
stump me.
I must admit.
They really do throw me  
Right so  A quick sort of look at different patterns.
to di to differ I mean it's it's it is no good sort of trying to go in in depth into the integration until you're really happy with the
Mhm the basics.
the differention 
Mm.
differentiating.
Because then, you just look at it and say, Ah I know how we got here, that reminds me of that one I did the other week where it came out looking like this.
So I'll work backwards from that .
I'll work backwards.
Yeah.
And you you you have to sort of attack it in that way.
X squared over cos X plus sine X. You like you like the trig functions then?
Oh I adore them.
Erm Y equals  X squared over X.
I'll just close this over .
Okay, could you differentiate that?
Erm 
Write write the formula out .
I'm thinking about 
If you're using the formula.
Erm minus one so it's two X  to the power of one, not very nice is it.
Erm
Do what would you do to get that?
To get which bit?
To get the whole answer.
The whole thing?
Yeah.
Erm what I do is erm   bump
Okay so you 
differentiated the top part.
Mhm.
And then you drew your line and you differentiated the bottom part?
Yeah.
I'm not happy with that .
Right.
Is that what you do?
No.
Right what what 
Definitely not.
Well if I gave you something like this erm Y equals  X times  X squared plus two.
Three X  two.
How would you differentiate that?
As a function of a function.
Mm.
. Now you could integrate it as a function of a function.
If I said, integrate that
Mm.
Then you'd say, Ah D X is a differential of X squared.
Mm.
If I differentiated this I'd get two X cos the two would disappear.
That's right 
right order.
So I could integrate that.
That's a that's that's one that might even be easier to integrate than differentiate.
But how would you differentiate it.
What what rule what methods do you know for differentiating?
Erm  well there's a few.
Okay, there's a few, so name a few.
Well I've got to the first one  
Right, that's that's just that's just the basic one
Mm.
for when you've got a simple straightforward of X. Like if I said, Y equals X squared plus two, you just differentiate it straight off by doing each term like that.
Mhm.
Right, and then some that we were looking at there was a function of a function.
Right, now what other ways are there of of differentiating something that's awkward?
Erm ch erm  Well they have different techniques of differentiation like differentiation of part.
Erm differentiation by substitution is it?
No?
Mm.
Have you heard of products and quotients?
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah 
Right?
of course.
Sugar.
Right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So how would you differentiate that as a product then?
Mm.
Okay.
Right and what does that come to?
Right then.
So it's X  plus two  three X plus three plus  three X 
Okay and you want What does that come to?
Good.
Yeah  by D X  otherwise it looks as if it's just  D Y 
Yeah   Erm      Right er X squared   squared.
. Yeah 
X squared plus X.
Mm.
Okay.
Now I'll show you how I would differentiate that.
Okay.
Okay.
You may prefer your method, if so, you're very welcome to use it.
Three X times X squared
Three X squared.
Three X times two.
Now I want to differentiate that.
Differentiate X cubed, nine X squared.
Sorry three X squared.
Mm.
Three X squared times three  X squared 
X squared plus six.
Mm.
Which proves
It's quicker.
I'll give you that much, it's much quicker.
right.
Now  this is is a really good way for a product.
It works very well.
Mhm.
But sometimes they give you something like this and you say, Oh it's one times  Especially  
Yeah.
give you something like this, they might say erm,say, Four X squared minus one times two X squared plus three.
can do it this way.
Yeah.
Or you could just multiply them out if you liked.
Yeah?
And then differentiate that.
It doesn't matter, it depends on how big it is.
If this was sort of a cubic or something then you'd have all sorts of terms and you could chance of making a mistake.
But erm watch out for that cos sometimes it's easier to multiply out  
Hi.
Sometimes it doesn especially if it's just one thing outside there, like it might have been sort of a a three X or
Yeah.
five X cubed or something.
Just multiply it.
Erm so right, if you get something then where you're integrating  I'd like to sort of have a little practice this week of Have you done much practice of differentiating a product?
Erm I did, but I haven't lately.
Okay do a couple of products.
I mean that was fine, you did that alright.
Mm.
Erm that was great.
So just do a couple two of those  and then Do you know the formula for differentiating a quotient?
Erm  It's a sim similar except it's minus over V squared.
Wow brilliant.
That was great.
The only way I can remember it, that way  round .
Yeah erm most people just get lost in this and sort of finish 
Yeah.
up looking it up.
Well, what happened with me was, when we got taught it, he 
Yeah.
started off doing them like this and it was U D V by D X
Mm.
I'm slipping out Graham .
Mm erm Okay.
leave these coppers for this gentleman here .
Mm.
Oh yes.
Okay.
We got it
Thanks very much.
this way round.
Okay, what did he give you?.
Are you sure?
No that's fine.
Thanks.
Oh .
Well I think you've done very well actually.
We've covered a lot tonight that I was saying  
other people erm could take three lessons to cover it pick it up very well.
Good.
Thanks very much.
How how do you feel about it?
I feel fine  ploughing through it though yeah .
Did you you know, did you get it  Mm.
you're not sort of ploughing through you're you know, you're picking it up and your bringing it  I like the way you the way you're assimilating it.
Mhm.
That you're not sort of, Oh just I'll memorize this lot.
But you're understanding it and you're fitting it in with what you already know.
Which is the only way to do it.
Mhm.
You're building up a knowledge base, you're not just building up lots of odd facts like you know, how many people live in China, or
Mm.
You  
try to memorize them you're you're making them mean something.
So if we g let's say if I gave you something top integrate.
Mhm.
Right, if I gave you er something like that.
Let's say we'd started off with  three X
X squared there.
Right.
let's say let's say I just gave it to you like that.
Yeah.
Right.
I gave you that and I said, Y equals that, now integrate it.
And you sort of spot this connection here.
Yeah  two X 
And 
and the X 
And 
squared.
And that.
Mhm.
Say, that one's Well if that one was if that one was  U that would be D U or if this one was V, that would be D V and 
Mm.
D V by D X  
Sorry to be a nuisance.
No you're no problem.
We're off Graham okay, we'll see 
Right.
you later, we won't be long.
Okay.
And do hang on a minute  don't go don't go.
Do you want to go out with them?
Or is it just to do the shopping?
Oh no no  
No?
Okay.
I mean we're about 
finished anyway.
Erm so if I gave you something like that to differentiate
Mhm.
you'd say, Oh that's yeah.
That three  if you differentiated the three X you'd get the three.
If you differentiated the X squared, you'd get the two X.
So if I gave you something to differenti to  to integrate
To integrate.
If I gave you something to integrate that looked like erm say it had a sine X, I know you like those.
Yeah, right.
Right.
So instead of the three, let's let's leave the two X exactly as it is
Mhm.
and leave that.
But here instead of the three X,
had
X squared plus two plus two.
So X squared plus two times something add something times two X. Okay
Mm.
differentiate the two X, you get that.
And in    in there if I had sine X,
Mm.
and in there,
Cos.
cos X. Now you say, Oh okay, maybe er Now don't forget you're integrating so you're going to have problems with the sine.
Er when you differentiate a sine you get a cos.
Differentiate a cos you get a minus sine.
So when you integrate one And the best way to 
Mm.
do it the best way to do it if you're trying to say, let's integrate cos X.  cos cos X. Trying to integrate that you say 
Mhm.
well just forget trying to integrate it.
It came from a sine didn't it?
If I differentiated a sine, I would get plus cos right okay .
Mhm.
So it does integrate straight back to that.
But if I was integrating a sine, it would have come from a cos and the cos should have given me a minus sine .
Minus sine.
So integrating sine will give me minus cos.
And 
Yeah  
you can get th I've seen people spend sort of quite a few minutes going round in circles and give up on that when they're nearly at the answer.
Mm.
The easiest thing is if you can just remember one.
Just one.
Just one of them  it sticks .
And and and work from it instead of trying to remember the whole rule.
So  to integrate.
It's cos X brackets X squared plus two.
Cos you just pull them out of the first brackets of each one.
Right.
There's U and there's V.
Right, so unless you have practised doing a few, integrating U times V
Mhm.
you won't spot that because this is 
You won't spot that.
this is about, Ah I've seen something like that before.
And it would be absolutely laid out on a plate for you like that.
Oh no.
It might be the other way round, it might be 
You have to twist it about a bit.
minus one, it might be you know erm for example that might be.
It wouldn't be given as a cos X two X, it would be given two X cos X.
Mm.
So you'd have to start looking for these patterns, but you need to build up to those, build up your experience so that you've seen them.
Do a couple of products.
Mhm.
probably do a few.
Do a few products and then, leave them for a few days and go back and integrate them.
And try and Mm.
And you t you'll find sort of quite a few examples of products erm 
So one day, say, do a few normal type products, next say, put some sines and coses and and gets 
Mm 
boring after a while doesn't it if you don't have sines and coses.
So put some sines and coses in.
Mhm.
Differentiate those.
And then sort of set those two on the side and then go onto products Sorry, quotients.
Quotients yeah .
And do the same.
Differentiate a few quotients, get the hang of it, throw in a few sines and coses.
Okay, and then by the time you've done that it'll be time to go back to the start
Yeah.
and start integrating your products.
Integrate your simple products, then integrate the products with your sines and cos and 
Mhm.
then integrate your quotients.
The an the result of getting the quotient and by the time you get to looking at those you'll  integration's hard and you will not ever say again what you said to me a long time ago that you thought integration was a lot easier than differentiation .
Mm.
I thought, There's something you're missing there if you think that.
What do you think now then, which would you rather do, differentiate or integrate?
I think the differentiation  now I'm beginning to 
Especially especially 
understand it better .
Especially if I'm going to sort of give you things like Y equals erm cos E to the minus K X. I mean it's only a simple one.
It's only a simple one .
Yeah.
It's not a real thing.
And I could be throwing  but it's the sort of thing that's gonna come into your circuit stuff.
Yeah?
Yeah.
If you've got phase diagrams and you've got V and things varying.
And some fi sine functions and it's not a straight 
.
It's not a straight sine thing, it's erm another curve  
a lot.
A logarithmic decay, sort of thing, a rat's tail cap 
Oh I know what you mean, yeah.
Capacitor discharging over over running the opposite way and then  that's not drawn properly but you know what 
I can see what you mean, yeah.
You've seen it before you know what's 
It's going down and every time it goes down it's equal on both sides yeah.
Yes.
Gradually gets dies down to nothing.
It might be a very tight thing that looks almost like this.
Yeah.
down to down to  
Gone in no time.
So you've got plenty to do, now
Right.
we I try and cover what we can in the lessons Not so much what we can but what I think is the right amount for you.
Mhm.
Erm and it's up to you then to  plenty of time through the week  I know you've got nothing 
yeah.
else to do.
No You've got ab there's a lot of work in this
Mhm.
erm but the more understanding you have, there will almost certainly come a point in in your course when 
Mhm.
people start throwing stuff at you, developing a whole new topic and you're lost from the start.
I mean you know, there's some some concept of a model which just escapes you.
It it happens to everyone.
Yeah.
It happened to me when I was sort of looking at some sort of electronic engineering that I wasn't supposed to be doing I was just looking at it for interest like  Well I'd like to have the time to spend on that but I'll leave that thank you  very much.
You know .
You can keep that.
So  you can you can get lost because you don't understand the notation, cos you don't understand the model or because your maths can't keep up with it because you're not you know,E to the 
Yeah.
E to the minus nought point three.
So the more the more that you understand,the less you're gonna be  
Yeah.
So you've got plenty to do.
Mhm.
I'll leave you to get on with it and I'll 
Okay.
get on .
rushing about doing things today.
next week .
That's yours that's your pen too isn't it.
Yeah.
Right.
My pen.
I lost a pad somewhere the other week with some It wasn't important notes but some notes in.
print out again..
not a bad idea.
Mm.
Graham, Monday or Thursday preferred.

Apart from that they could've sat on a wall and done exactly the same thing, she was   in the street.
She was going ment she's mental.
When you moving then?
Not till  week.
First week  
Yeah   well no I just wanna, it's, it's not  is it, I mean
Well is it all decorated in there now or 
No it's all done in there but it's just gotta be decorated and like  clean and 
extension or kitchen or 
I've never seen, do you know the bathroom, right?
Well it's the tiniest toilet I've ever seen in my life.
It's no it's not a, it's not a normal like, it's not a 
I don't think I've ever seen the bathroom there.
an average size er well  it was all there right and it was all tiled right, very plain, yellow and black wasn't it?
I couldn't handle it, I thought no he's gonna make me 
make do with this I thought, and then he's  and I did didn't I?he'd gone along and  
Well what is the what colour's the toilet ?
It's just a white like normal, like a normal  like if it was a council house.
Yeah but it's old fashioned bathroom suite isn't it?
Yes but, yeah but it's a little little toilet, he won't get his arse on there  
I could just about get mine on it.
And the bath  
It's real old fashioned cos you know the flush, when you pull a flush  water comes up about that far from the top.
Yeah you've got there's some  
If you had a shit in it your arse was nearly in the water like.
Serious.
It's a little tiny toilet.
It's a bidet as well then?
Yeah.
It's a bidet as well.
Yeah, posh.
I dunno I'm not having that.
I want one of those corner ones anyway.
Is it a big bathroom then, or?
No.
It will be once the place, cos that's where the extension's going, right across there.
Mine's tiny my bathroom is.
I've got a small bathroom  small 
You've got the toilet, sink and the bath.
You don't really need a big bathroom do you?
Oh I dunno, if you see a big bathroom it's nice.
It's nice to have a big bathroom  
It is lovely, oh it would be nice.
Yeah.
It is if you see it.
It's lovely like to have plenty of cupboard space for all your towels and all that.
Like in mine I've got a cur er a wicker unit thing that I stack towels on and whatever right?
But you've got that, the toilet and the bath and that's it  
That's me Lyn mine's exactly the same.
You just cannot get nothing else 
Mm 
in there.
Well most of them are aren't they?
And 
They're basic.
Gonna have a shower, most of them have a bath  and that's it.
in our house if one of you's in the bathroom  in the bath like if Russell's in the bath I go and sit on the toilet and talk to him and the dog's in there as well  and you can't move.
No well that's like we are, Gordon's in the shower, I'm on the toilet, the kids are both in the bloody sh in the bathroom with us.
You can't go nowhere man.
No I know.
We er well I mean there's only the two of us  
Don't do that!
Not fair is it?
No it isn't.
Well I
He do wait now until he gets up 
and he gets in the bed.
Who?
Sean doesn't he?
And I've never seen a photograph, you a little boy.
Oh no?
No!
Well just look at Hayley
Who's he look like ?
just look at Hayley.
He's not, he's  I can't, he's, I don't think he's like me.
He 
He is  
Oh expressions he got of mine
Oh
He's wild.
he's   he's hard, he's had me crying, he's 
And I have smacked him really hard when he'd nearly had me crying right?
Don't hurt.
Well
He don't.
Sometimes he does but y 
get on well.
bu but he's  he's erm active,
He's like you Hayley he is.
Oh he's exactly like me.
Steve, I always said to Steven if we have a kid I said I hope it looks like me I said but I hope it got your temperament  come out exactly wrong.
He got my eyes, not my colouring but he's fairly blinky isn't he, watching the telly, well I am anyway and 
I love them when they're naughty, I do I love them.
Oh he's a bastard!
I do, I love them, except my nephew he's ruined right and he's been, all this week he's  
Oh it's my fault he's like he is.
and he wasn't gonna go football tomorrow but he's gotta go cos if he don't go he's letting the team go because  things he was saying to my mother last week, well you wouldn't believe it.
Honest to God when he comes out with it  he's disgusting.
With Sean now like what he do, he says   fuck  and he goes  
Yeah.
And he will say erm  he won't say  he comes up and he says  you're nothing but a ba stard and I say, what!
He says ba he says I didn't say it, says I didn't say the word  and then he sa he calls my niece he'll say to her, he  she's getting boobs now like, she's twelve, and he goes 
Ah!
It's it's horrible at that age, innit?
let's grab your tits,right yeah
and he really 
Ah!
takes the mick out of her and I started him 
I bet she's ever so embarrassed.
Yeah.
I started it cos I started teasing her cos she's big chested for her age, right, she's gonna follow my sister cos my sister's got big boobs  and I started, but of course he just carries it on and on and on now.
Well I dunno who I followed.
He goes and on and on and on about it now.
I dunno where I got it from, it's from erm 
Look at her mam, she's got a bra on ain't she, and he's oh!
the ol the sisters innit?
It's gotta be.
What was it like in  
Pill pill is that.
Oh I said  
She  you bastard .
I said  I said oh I said I can't wait to lose this guts and those two were sitting there while I dressed and I said oh my guts and oh how I hate them, I said but if I lost them  I mean 
Your boobs would look too big.
Oh God they'd look macha I'd have to strap them under my arms!
No but the trouble is when I go on a diet the first place I 
I don't lost it off my boobs.
lost it is my boobs.
I haven't got big boobs though.
Oh in saying that, yeah when I when I had the baby 
The first place I lose it is my bust.
I lost about four inches 
And I can't afford to lose it there.
so that wasn't so bad.
I haven't got a very big bust, I haven't got a small bust but I haven't got an ultra big bust.
Oh I hate them I do.
I think if I had a bigger bust my guts wouldn't look so big.
First thing a man looks at doesn't he?
He doesn't look at your face they're like that looking at her, well I hate that.
You should see this piece that co this, this girl that comes into  the long black hair  she goes, she got like  and she's   she's small right, and s really skinny and she got massive  like that 
and they all take the piss out of her
Ah!
she always goes out the pub crying.
Well Russell was saying in work like right 
Oh that's terrible  innit?
Ah yeah!
They're massive though, they're really huge  
But there again if she's trying her 
they've got a girl that works there right and her name her name is Linda and they run this big machine and it's really long  and he said if she's at the top machine he can't see down the other end of the machine cos her boobs are in the way and he's got  I said you don't ask her can sh he said yeah well he said  I've gotta ask her  can she move out the way, he said if she sits on the table her boobs are resting on the table, I said oh  I'd crack up.
He said me and the boys we're standing all day watching her when she's bending down putting box  in a sack  
Dirty c cows.
though haven't you?
Dirty bastards men are.
Aye I suppose you have gotta look.
As long as you don't touch I suppose.
It's horrible window shopping innit?
Gordon says it's not natural if you don't erm  if you don't look.
Oh I get, I get  
As long as he don't touch.
Oh I don't know.
Well come off it Hayley, if there was a man now bloody sitting there with his bloody
With a massive knob down to his leg  
one ball hanging out like  like I mean you couldn't help looking at it all the time   
Oh no it wouldn't turn me on if their bollocks were hanging out  
No it wouldn't turn me on  but you couldn't help looking could you?
Now be honest.
No but it wouldn't turn me on.
No it wouldn't turn me on 
Well I tell you what I went to see have you seen the Chippendales?
Bollocks doesn't turn me on.
I went to see the Chippendales  well I've never seen anything like it in my life.
Oh a big dick, aye.
They didn't have big dicks.
No   crossed conversation going on by here.
Well I went to see the Chippendales right and I've never seen there's seventeen 
Oh I don't call them men I don't.
No but they were a on  no they're not really but they were absolutely 
They're not men, rubbish.
gorgeous.
I've never seen seventeen  lovely men in all my life.
Oh aye.
Where was that?
We went to  to see them.
A gang of us went from the  
Yeah but I mean they can afford to, it's just like women or
It was crazy.
they spend most of their time don't they, I mean 
It was wild.
treating their skin and their hair and they  they're on show, they've gotta be  
Well what a  bloody er 
the Officer and the Gentleman, they all come out in these white suits, and I mean they're handsome right?
And they had white, the whole lot like, and they stripped off right down to a white G-string, then they turned all the lights off and dropped them and by the time they'd put the lights black on, back on, I can't speak now, they'd had, they had a black one on so they, what they must have had, they  well they do, they have loads of them on, they just peel them off like one after another  never actually see them naked.
I'd love to have a look mind cos I bet they're all, you know, small.
Oh I bet they are.
Yeah but it's not the size it's what they can do with it innit?
Well one of them, there's a bed on the stage right?
This is all being taped now but it 
, no Deb I couldn't handle a little skingy one.
Oh no!
They had a bed on the stage and they had red satin sheets on it 
Couldn't  with one.
and what he'd done to this pillow was no one 's business.
I'd've loved to have been that pillow, I really would er  things he was doing to this pillow it was 
Did it turn you on then?
When you was watching it like?
Oh well I was l oh yeah he was you couldn't 
cos he was handsome, you couldn't, you couldn't just  you know  he was wild he was.
Things like that don't turn me on see.
Well I'd never seen them, I don't say it turned you on but it made you
I don't like handsome, handsome 
I mean it 
pretty men I don't.
Tt I don't.
I don't like
Well they all look bloody fairies.
I don't like men that  handsome then that they think  this sounds awful bigheaded, they are prettier than me.
They love themselves.
Oh yeah I know what you mean 
Do you know what I mean?
I've been out with, I've been out with loads 
but I, they're nowhere like that.
right, and I mean  they, they're talking to you right and all the time they're like this themselves like.
Oh I fucking  
I tell you what do you know a boy from  called Dan ?
Yes.
Well I went out with him once, right, and I fucking hate him  cos he always thought he was so lovely that no woman was good enough for him.
Mm.
Went to that party last week, to that tt remember I said to you know that guy in that farm, Richard??
Oh 
Do you know him then?
Well I don't know him but  
He's a right pillock.
used to have all them er barn dances every .
Yeah well i it's a brand new spanking house right.
He's got a big well it's a brand new farm  
What's it like?
Do what?
Oh it's fab the house is fabulous 
Mm 
really it is.
Well he, he bought all them fields didn't he?
Just bought the farm and 
But he's, yeah but he's a right prick.
He is just 
But I, I don't know him to talk to  
he is just a right prick, right?
I said to Russell I'll go upstairs and have a look at the bedrooms and I've got this thing that if it's a nice house I'd go and have a look at the bedrooms, he said well why?
I said   So I said to this Richard, I said excuse me I said but your phone's not working downstairs I said have you got one upstairs?
You nosy cow!
Yeah!
He said yeah, he said it's in my bedroom.
So I'm walking up the stairs and he's walking up behind me, and all I can hear is Russell saying watch yourself cos he had his hands on me  watch yourself.
went to have a look in his bedrooms like and I  they're all done out in pine, every bedroom is done out in pine.
The old thatch you know, the  well it's not, it's like tongue and groove now innit?
There was one pink, one cream  one blue and white, and that's four bedrooms, they were absolutely gorgeous bedrooms.
They were lovely.
So I said can I use your phone in that one?
But he is a pillock, he's  I mean she, Catherine right his cous Russell's cousin  she's really pretty, she's rea she's got a lovely skinny figure, everything  and he's just a pillock, there's no other word for him.
But he got money.
Well that's it innit?
You can't blame them can you?
No.
I don't blame her cos he's loaded.
Well  has she grown to love him cos of his money?
Well she hasn't got much choice 
It can be done.
has she?
I mean
But, yeah, she did have a choice but I mean  sh you do with people with money.
I don't know, I, I  Yeah I suppose so.
You do, they gr they you see them in a different light.
Well her mother was saying, they got engaged and, you know, there was drinks  and her mother was saying oh the wedding's gonna be in February, it's gonna be a quick wedding and all this  so I was talking to her, I said Cath I said when are you are getting married then?
She said I, she said I'm not getting married.
So I think her mother's gonna be in for a bit of a shock because they all think that they're gonna get married so quick, I think she just wanted to get that ring on her finger so she can reap the ackers and I think she's gonna do a runner.
Which I don't blame her there again, if he's stupid enough to 
If he can't see it, aye.
I mean a lot of people  
He had a helicopter in the garden an'all.
I said to Russell I'd love to go in that helicopter he said Lyn you're pissed.
I said I don't care I'd still go up in it  
Oh.
I would, I'd 
helicopter was it?
Well I take it it must have been, yeah, there was a helicopter in the garden  and somebody said he'd flown friends in  in the afternoon, so I don't know.
God!
Rich bastard.
But I says how can they make money now, how can they make money out of that?
Where's he making it, he must have had money  he didn't just buy those fields and make money and have a big house like that.
he just bought that field and that, that farm, all, all the barns were there to start with.
It was an old house there and that's what she said, it was derelict, they knocked it down and rebuilt the new one.
But it was an, a really old decrepit house there.
So what work does he do?
He's a farmer.
But how can he make money like that?
Cos they get money off the government don't they, farmers?
Because like  
Oh they should 
there must have been some money there first.
Yeah there had to be, yeah.
a farmer a fa how the farmer makes his money, it's all like people going to university and how they get grants  well farmers get grants  grants  
Ah well I worked for one didn't I in  Farm 
money like.
and they knocked the old farmhouse, they had a house and the farmhouse, they had a farmhouse you know and  
farm , Chris his name is, Chris and Liz  Elizabeth her name is, she's having a baby  she's having a baby now, her baby's due in er
Oh no I worked for another one but her name's not Liz it's Alison, but I don't like working for her and that's why I've stopped, I said to Sandra I'm not fucking scrubbing for somebody younger than me.
No I don't blame you I wouldn't either 
I'm not doing it.
no I wouldn't.
Sorry.
Cos er San Sandra agreed in the end she said oh  I said you can do it on your own, you can have the nine quid if you like  yourself I said but I'm not coming with you  I said for three hours working for somebody who's twenty five.
Well Liz is younger than me, Liz is only twenty one  I mean 
Yeah and she doesn't do any ironing, nothing.
No she, she doesn't do a thing I mean to cook a Sunday dinner she doesn't know what it is.
I don't mind if they're older and like they've got a profession and all that but I mean 
Yeah that's it, I mean it's
That's just fucking lazy.
Russell's two cousins I don't know, I don't know if you know him 
It's just mm yeah it is and that's what I don't like.
erm her father, Russell's cousin's 
I'm not lazy.
father always had a shop on the , Mervyn his name was, it was like a grocery shop
Oh yeah
Yeah well
yeah.
Mervyn and Georgina, well it's Alice the er mother and I mean they had two stunning looking girls right, but they've both married, they're both involved with rich farmers.
Liz married a farmer from   when they got married, just before they got married it was her birthday and he bought her a Porsche.
Well I mean 
One of them must have been , loads of make-up?
Yeah!
That's it.
And the one, the one lives in er  
Yeah that's it,got a daughter.
She doesn't, well that's the one who's just  married now to that guy Richard with that big farm.
It's not the one that comes
They are tarts, they are I'm not being horrible 
it's not the one who drives 
but they are.
Mm.
you know the one who drives that  Porsche 
Porsche yes?
used to go with  
.
No, no that's her sister.
That's her sister is it?
That's her sister, yeah.
Well I went to school with Barry  and when  we all went to a party over  and  was there,
What school did you go?
The  Gwindy 
You didn't go there?
Yeah I went to Gwindy I did, yeah.
Yeah well I was only in Gwindy for three years, then I went to Lewis Girls because I lived this end of  I had to go to   I loved Gwindy school.
And Gordon was in Gwindy school weren't you?
Yeah I loved Gwindy school I did.
I hated it when I had to leave there  
school 
But you, so you know them then?
You know the girl well you know th you know Catherine then?
Yeah.
The one who used to go out with Barry .
They just, they were always  make-up you know?
Have you seen them with their make-up off?
Grrr rough they  are dogs .
Well I haven't seen them with make-up off .
Real dogs.
Cos  we er  did a job for  once,
But that must be awful  I al I've always thought for a, a woman who wears  really loads of make-up
Well 
and then they sleep with a fella right, honestly 
And they wake up and it's terrible.
Well I mean that fella must 
And they 
look around and think  tt oh God.
Liz the one who's married to the farmer from  right?
The night before she got married we went over the house to take all her presents over
Mm?
Chris , is that his name?
He's er like a landscape gardener.
He's got a big farm in  but he's like a land but Barry  is a landscape 
gardener as well isn't he?
a coalman, a landscape gardener you name it.
Yeah he does anything doesn't he?
Yeah.
But erm I went to see Liz the night before she got married and actually she had no make-up on right but she looked prettier without it, like Catherine 
I should imagine Catherine does look a right tart.
That's nice.
I got it from my mother for Christmas.
It's nice.
But Elizabeth's not, Elizabeth is quite a nice person 
And a necklace and earrings and 
but Catherine is the one who's really tarty.
That's the one who's just got engaged to this guy who's got the big 
Well that's  
No put those crisps in your pocket.
You going out tomorrow are you?
Oh I don't know 
Do you go out on a Saturday now?
No I don't do I?
It's not that I t I  my friend come  cos I do have her little boy now  straight from school, she pays for him to have a taxi from Endrodenny down to my house and I do have him until she finishes work  and she said oh coming out tomorrow?
I said oh yeah!
I mean I wouldn't've minded if she said come up the house like  and she mentioned Cardiff  but I've gone so fat I don't wanna go!
Oh don't be so stupid woman .
Honestly that's what I think, I just don't wanna 
You always look smart 
Yes she does.
I, yeah but I d I  no I, I'm fat and I don't wanna go.
And that's how I feel.
Cos then she said oh Sandra are you coming?
I thought no there's Alison like that, there's Sandra like that  I thought oh no.
Can't handle it.
I've got to find my keys now to get in.
I don't know, I'll see how I feel.
Oh well  
How is Donna getting on anyway these days?
I haven't seen her for bloody ages.
Oh she's alright.
She courting now?
No she wanna bloody leave it alone for a bit, I mean she's a disaster man!
Fucking disaster.
Why what's she do?
What don't she do.
Ah she's  Lyn she's er got it all wrong I think, she thinks she wins men's affections like by sleeping with them all.
Oh.
She's just, that's just pulling their  mind you I did say to her  the last straw was Christmas day, can you imagine like, I mean  me and him didn't have to, I didn't have to stay in and cook dinner, I done it cos she was there  we'd all be together, she didn't fucking come home.
Where'd she go then?
Slept with this boy down this place, she woke up she didn't even know where she was.
Well that's, you know come on!
Well where was she then?
In some hotel somewhere?
No
in a house in
she couldn't even remember, she got so pissed up Christmas morning, she missed Christmas dinner  I said come home and have Christmas dinner  
We could've gone round my mother's  dinner.
Yeah.
But we said oh we'll stay cos Donna'll be on her own  
Yeah.
And you you couldn't go down  his mother's and leave Donna like can you?
She didn't come home anyway.
Mind you I was glad cos I got hell of a temper  that I kept myself alright cos I was gonna swing for her like.
I don't like Christmas dinner anyway.
And we sat there, it was boring wasn't it?
Me, him and the baby like.
Yeah but you've gotta do it haven't you?
I always 
I hate it.
enjoy Christmas dinner I do.
Oh I hate it, anyway I, I 
Oh I love it I do.
I hate veg cos, since Donna  she said oh just try it, my mother ne never made me eat it like.
I think it's foul.
Oh I always enjoy a Christmas dinner me.
Oh I like sprouts and   
Roast parsnips and  sprouts.
Brussel sprouts!
Urgh!
Well that's why now I'm glad when I'm come on this diet that I can fill his
Plate with veg.
plate plate with loads of veg can't I?
And he do like it so it, it's not so bad then.
But she come home Christmas night then didn't she?
No cos we was  my friend Pat said to me oh she said, cos everyone have always come up to my house Christmas night, I've always had the mess and that, she said oh she said, cos we've got a house now come down to me, I said oh great, I can clean up  and every Boxing morning it's always been the same  hangover, fucking 
Yeah, yeah it's terrible innit?
clean up all the shit.
And it was great, we went down there and she, and Donna come you know?
That was great so we went down there didn't we?
And er Donna walked in about  nine-ish wasn't it?
Half past nine 
Something like that.
She didn't ?
She, no she, cos she'd s what, he'd  done his business  pel pissed off and left her in this house and she didn't even know.
Ooh!
Whose house was it?
His friend's, but I mean she couldn't even remember nothing about it.
She said she woke up, well this girl woked her up, his sister
Oh that's terrible innit?
So I said  it was in Penrhos  oh it's a nice place,, I know when she told me and she said
yeah, and she said erm  she said they weren't so bad to me she said when I told them who I was living with.
She said I live with Hayley.
you live with Hayley do you?
Oh  and they said oh well you'd better go now 
She didn't even know who he was then?
She just went and  
Oh she knew the bloke, she'd be she'd been out with him a few times before right, he's, he's not a bad bloke but like I said  like I said erm   but he's  respect for her   I said to her 
No, I mean the first
the first night sh we run her down to meet him right, me and him, I said oh go on Donna, said he's a nice bloke, he's not  nice looking in fact he's  nothing, you know, nice looking at all but he's a nice bloke, he got a, you know, bit of money  and all that.
I said well  just tr I said you know it's a couple of nights out and that.
Gets up in the morning I sees this pair of red shoes, I thought oh you stupid cow.
Not only that she's bringing them back to my house, you know what I mean?
Not Penrhos like, they're all like that.
Yeah but you don't need that anyway do you?
You 
No.
Well that's it, it's when we moved down to the house  
Yeah.
I, I don't wanna chuck her out or nothing.
you can't really see 
But she's making 
and they pay rent and it's their own room and she can do what she likes in that own room.
But there again it's your four walls innit?
Well this is it innit?
But I mean I can't say to her like, chuck her out, but I mean she's making no effort to save.
For a start, right, erm  all her clothes then right  and I mean loads of them are ones  they're really  horrible like but she just hangs them here, I thought well you can't wear them, you know, all horrible, you don't wear them  fold them, put them away 
cos when I ironed all my clothes and they were mach squashed, and like all his clothes   there's a wardrobe in the wall and a double one a and the three of us can hang clothes in there.
Oh  and plus she was wearing all mine.
You know she's as good as gold and all that but I mean 
Yeah but 
it comes to a point sometimes, I mean I even noticed then  like when they're wearing all your clothes right?
And I don't go out that much, but then she wears them to the garage, to work!
I mean I go off cleaning in a pair of tracksuit bottoms and her er
Well you don't wear good clothes to work.
No!
No.
But then she start putting my erm blouses on like, cos she probably seen somebody come in nice thinking oh  dress up tomorrow and then I, in case he comes in  and I used to think shit that had been in the wardrobe, alright I don't wear them but I mean they're still nice 
Yeah.
int they you know?
Tt   and er I mean the 
I don't think I could handle somebody living with me like that.
and the thing is Lyn  the  thing that er used to piss me off was  she used to wear my knickers  and I can't stand that.
I, I hate it.
Oh I no I wouldn't like that.
Oh I wouldn't like that either.
No.
No.
And I hate it, and no matter what I done
Oh that's a cheek though, going in your drawer for your knickers.
Hasn't she got any of her own?
Ah well well no  well she had but they're all  and horrible.
And I mean he'll tell you right 
So she's going somewhere nice, she'll go in your drawer 
when I die 
for a pair of nice
pair of kni knickers.
nice knickers.
Oh I'd pr I wouldn't have that, I'm sorry.
Oh I'd crack her.
I wouldn't have that at all.
And I mean  a point when I was with her, right?
I'd always buy like, I always have done, buy two pair of knickers or two pairs of knickers a week, I always have done  right?
And er she'd say erm tt what do you want all those knickers for?
I'd say well as time goes on you throw old ones out don't you?
Out, yeah I do as well.
Yeah.
So I mean in the wash  
You go through your drawer and you sort the old ones out and you think oh right er
And she used to say like what you chucking them out for!
And I used to say oh they're gone.
Oh I'll have them!
And I used to say ooh  like, you know, but then  then I'd think  I used to see like, I used to say, well I said to you didn't I?
If you get in the bath, I always do it right, take your knickers off  I wash them, put them on the radiator.
I used to do that, I used to get up in the morning and they were fucking gone, she had them on her fucking arse.
Oh never!
Oh my God!
Do you like that colour?
It's alright, yeah.
Ah I see,
I'm going mum.
The sides have
Good boy.
the sides have erm  
Good boy!
Two pockets.
Well leave it on then for goodness sake.
use a bloody tape up.
Like this it was is it?
Yeah.
There it is,that's a bottom look.
Try that one on then Gordon.
this now.
Yes.
What do you do on that?
Well whatever you see there look, you've gotta copy all the Fs across there, all the Fs is across there, all the T  then you copy happy  all along there look
Mm.
It's learning how to write  Sean.
What are you making Kirsty?
What are you making Kirst?
Summer bargains you just  
What do you ?
aqua.
Oh I 
I'm making  
And try and tie it inside now like I said, see the tassels inside?
You've gotta pull it up look from the waist  that's it   
Mum I'm slipping.
What do you mean you're slipping?
This pen ain't any good, it's slipping.
What's slipping?
That rubber part thing?
Well every t I, I  I  I can't hold it tidy, it hurts my hand.
Well take it off there then, you haven't gotta write with that.
What's it for?
Well it's for younger children I suppose, like Kirsty, to learn, to show them how to hold a pencil tidy.
Put it straight up the front then.
got a zip .
Get up!
Yeah?
Nothing wrong with that.
I dunno whether I prefer the green, I don't know.
Go and have a look in the mirror upstairs Gordon, you're better off.
In my room .
up bed.
Yeah.
If you don't want it Kirsty'll have it cos Kirsty wants  don't you Kirst?
Kirsty always wants Kirsty always has something.
Well you just said you didn't want it!
I said I do want it but I don't like the game.
Well that's a bit simple Irish Sean, you either want it or you don't want it.
It helps you to r learn to write tidy.
Oh I learned.
Trouble is you're too lazy.
You're too lazy to be bothered.
I'm lazy 
That's the trouble.
What are you making Kirst?
Making it purple?
No  I'm taking them, that out.
Thirty five pounds this is 
Taking it back out.
these coats are, thirty five ninety nine.
Pardon?
Have you got a ?
Go over there and get the tea towel off the floor  
This one?
Kirsty make sure you put all them back in there tidy please.
tell you a true story, right,tell you a story  there's nobody you've ever seen  
and that's one thing that 
Right well I never have either.
Gospel truth, gospel truth  I talked to  I er wrote to them yeah, and I told them I don't want that  that's out that is.
Lovebites are out.
Mm.
I mean that.
That is one thing I, I, I don't know why    I just  lovebites out.
I don't like lovebites though, I always think about cancer I do, when you have lovebites, because you're sucking the blood like 
The blood 
an'all, you're drawing 
all the blood to the surface.
Well it's not doing any good though is it, be honest.
I don't think it is.
But I don't I don't think it affects  
You don't think at the time though sometimes do you?
I don't think so don't think so.
I don't think it affects  
Now it'll be on my mind now   
Well I don't think 
Oh I always think 
about that.
I don't think, I honestly don't think that, I don't think it's, it  
affect  in any way but  it's, it's just something that I 
I don't like  
it's just something that er  
Do you know I'd feel embarr after eight years of being married right 
this year and if Russell done that to me now I feel embarrassed in front of my mother, now, and then I've been married 
Yeah.
I would as well though.
Well I would, I wouldn't like it.
I would as well because you know what you've been doing.
Yeah, I wouldn't like it.
I mean they know you do it anyway  but  
Mm mm yeah.
Yeah but I wouldn't like it.
That's bloody nonsense.
to actually see them on your neck.
That's nonsense!
Ah!
Ah no!
And I wouldn't do it to Russell when Russell's going to his mother's because I'd 
No I, I 
die of embarrassment I would.
Aye .
I'd say I didn't do it.
You wouldn't would you?
Would you honest?
Yeah I'd say I didn't do it, I'd say I didn't do it.
I would  I'd say I didn't do it .
That's t t tell me something  don't  do you think your mother and father don't do it now then?
Well no I don't say that 
Oh I don't like to think of them doing it now like.
but I, I 
No I 
Yeah but she, no but look, but seriously 
No I know.
Oh no.
do you think that they don't do it like?
Well they're bound to aren't they?
I think they do it once a month perhaps.
Hey how do you know they don't do it every night ?
They cut, cut the afternoons out .
No but we joke 
but, but being honest you, you've gotta look at life man.
Yeah I know but that's not the point is it?
It doesn't matter my sweetheart.
I mean what's  with respect, what's your mum and dad now?
Fifty four, fifty five?
Aye my mum's fifty five, my dad's 
Well that's 
sixty two.
Dad's sixty two?
No he's not.
No he's not!
My dad's sixty one.
Is he?
I didn't realize Peter was that age.
Superb.
I said fifty four, fifty five
I d I think my mum's older than that as well, I think my mum's older, I don't know, Tom I honestly don't know how old they are.
N no but alright alright
I don't think of things
forget about it  but it doesn't matter mind.
If she, your sex, your sex life doesn't, it doesn't go  well it doesn't.
No I know that but I still wouldn't like my mother to see 
It doesn't go.
my neck covered in lovebites.
Or my father.
But I mean if I see if I see my daughter  I, I go  do you know what I say to her?
Christ you had a tight shirt on last night, and that's how I do, that's how I just say to her.
Well I do man, for Christ sake man.
I mean  I, I tell you straight  I talks to my girls   
Yeah well I do, I don't, it's not that I don't talk to them about it but I mean I'm pretty open with my mother and father
but I still wouldn't like my mother to see big lovebites all over my neck, I don't think it's  I don't think it looks nice anyway.
No I don't.
Tell you what it does, it, it says something I, I never in, in my time  er like I, I, I've never wanted  lovebites like.
I can't say I've never had them cos I have, but I
Gordon don't like them  
I hadn't thought about it at the time  
I think once he had one off me  on his neck and erm 
he went mad  and he was trying to cover it up and that  cos I mean over the club, and he goes there on a Saturday afternoon, he gets some stick over there.
You know what the boys are like innit?
Yeah.
I do but I mean that's alright isn't it?
But not only that he just don't like having them anyway.
There's nothing there's nothing wrong with them.
No I know that but I mean
Did, did you conceive?
Tom I'm going back years ago now.
I know that darling, I was, alright my sweetheart.
Perhaps I did!
I done it to I done it to Russell one night messing around and he told the girls in work I'd been away for the weekend and he'd had somebody else there   honest to God he did!
Well.
It's a good job I know him.
Cos they were all taking the mick out of him and he said oh she didn't do it he said she was away for the  weekend, I had somebody else there .
No, no Deb.
You sure?
Mm.
What?
Yes we're fine now.
That door's 
Goodnight.
locked innit?
That's all done love.
Oh lovely, thanks.
Ta-ta  
Goodnight.
Ta-ta Tom.
Goodnight.
Don't lose track  keep track cos I tell you what I was 
I gotta be honest with you  I'm a bit bashful now  
if you want me let me know.
I tell you something else as well, if you want me to take you out  any time you want me to take you out  and, and I mean this honestly  if you don't want sex you won't have to have it
Oh!
Oh thanks Tom.
Goodnight.
Ta-ta Tom.
Goodnight.
Goodnight, God bless.
Goodnight.
Ta-ta.
It's still on.
Turn it off now.
N no leave it on I gotta use the bloody tapes up.
Oh I couldn't use it up with the kids you know.
Ooh!
Ooh you've got him saying that.
It's , they don't know who he is.
But we've all been saying goodnight Tom.
Aye but they don't know  what Tom is, it could be Tom, Dick or bloody Harry.
Couldn't it ?
Ooh God.
Hayley you're awful quiet tonight love.
Oh I tell y I know I, I'm not well myself, I'm not well 
You're not yourself.
Is she Lyn  she's not herself is she?
Yeah  
I'm not and I tell you honest it's, it is frightening me a bit.
Why, what's the matter?
She's got these pains in her back.
Terrible 
Turn this off I'm not having this.
I'm just  
Leave it on you dopey cow.
Oh no, stop it.
Nobody knows who we, who we are man for Christ sake.
What, you've only had them since you started taking those tablets?
I've never had these pains before.
Like that.
And they're in your back?
But I think it must be , I got up when he went to work, half past seven and I haven't sat down I haven't even sat down then to eat because I  
You know what 
I had haven't sat down since half past seven
What you do is, cos 
this morning.
I, right when I took them, I was taking 
And I can't stop working.
I used to take them every day and I was like that right, and then what I used to do  on a Sunday I wouldn't take one cos I used to think right I like my Sunday dinner and I will never give up my Sunday dinner when I'm dieting right 
Oh no.
I'll always have my Sunday dinner 
Oh I tell you what
so on a Sunday I used to say right I'm not gonna take my tablets today because it's a waste of a tablet if you're gonna eat  like that, and on a Sunday I used to be absolutely exhausted  because you take them all the time and they keep you going and then when you stop taking them  they've just, you wind down 
When you stop taking them altogether now do you mean?
and I yeah I went two months and he give me  right, they're called  they're yellow like round tablets they are, like an aspirin but they're yellow right?
Yeah.
He give me them, I took them for three days, right, I didn't come down for a fortnight and Russell'll tell you that, I was high as a kite.
Even my heart was racing and I was frightened 
This is what I'm getting all the time yeah.
Your heart's racing as well is it?
And when I'm sleeping right
Your heart's going boom boom boom faster?
Yeah and has palpitati funny, and not only that right, my eyes seem as if they're going like that.
Yeah, I 
Terrible.
I can't sleep.
you, honestly I wouldn't take them Hayle.
Stop them.
Oh Hayley not doing you no good love.
They're not doing any good.
Surely to God you can lose it some other way than bloody doing that?
Come to slimming club with me on Tuesday.
It's no good Lyn, no, what I'll do is is exercise.
I enjoy it, I always used to run.
But honestly this slimming club I go to, honestly it's really good.
I mean I lost weight on it last year.
You've got thin legs, it's only here Hayle you've gotta lose it.
She, exactly
Yeah.
I'm, I'm like that.
I'm all  look, that's all fat.
I haven't got fat legs really, I mean I put stockings on and a short skirt and I put something long on and  from the back Russell said you look skinny he says, when you turn round and you see  that
Yeah.
Yeah.
We've all got that though Lyn, I mean come off it.
it's all, I'm all, I'm all here.
Yeah but not on 
That's not fat!
Yeah but to er  you haven't though Deb.
Mine is  and it's lazy fat, that's what it is.
Yeah.
But it's not only that, I'm not lazy or nothing
Sit ups you want to do.
it's the exercise I should do.
Yeah but it's so boring exercising.
I haven't  exercise like cos I haven't I haven't hardly  I've just er doing everything like, and I've been working hard but 
Yeah but you're on cloud nine.
Yeah I am.
And when I took those  I didn't come down for a, and that frightened me, I said to Russell I will never ever take speed  because it's if, I was er we were in the pub right on a Sunday morning and I was there but I wasn't there, I was somewhere else.
And people were just saying to me what's the matter?
I've taken speed as powder right  and  erm  it had an effect  like these ones.
It's a  thirty  have a look on the bottle if they're thirty 
Thirty mils yeah.
They're thirty mils, they're the strongest ones see.
Yeah.
You can get twenty five.
Get fifteen too isn't there, sometimes you can 
Yeah.
You can get erm a red and a grey one  I think that's the fifteen, then you can get a yellow and a grey one, that's the twenty five.
And the all yellow ones are the thirty.
Are the thirty.
Yeah.
Perhaps I'm going a bit too strong see.
Cos I mean for someone like me, I was saying that like, before I used to say to you  I wouldn't eat all day, right?
But then, when I le left you and went to work I'd eat those pasties and crisps and then perhaps I'm still hungry, sometimes I'd go and have a Chinese all at the wrong time, that's what all that is innit?
When I lost 
And then lying on it.
when I lost my weight with slimming we were try I was losing two pounds  a week and I weren't starving, I was still drinking  and it come off and I lost, I lost about  I think it was about eighteen pounds, it was over a stone.
I s I was still only down to sort of eleven stone, but if I get to like ten stone 
Yeah.
something  but I'm not a small person.
I mean like you're quite small framed aren't you so, if you went up to ten stone you'd look huge
Yeah.
but ten stone something 
I used to be eleven stone.
and I look quite slim because I'm not a small person.
I used to be eleven stone, when I was eighteen, nineteen I was eleven stone Hayle.
And that's honest to God.
Never well you must've looked big Deb cos you're small.
Oh I was massive man I had a double chin an'all.
My arms were massive.
I don't remem remember you like that.
I never remember you like that.
No well I wasn't.
I moved to  from Nelson and that's when I was big.
And how did you lose all your weight then?
You just lost it?
I went on an egg diet  with the girls in work 
Egg diet?
I thought 
Yes.
they were fattening.
No it wasn't just eggs though it was erm  like salads and there was steak, you could have one meal a day, right, but it was eggs for your breakfast, eggs for your dinner, your lunch
Now I love eggs  but I thought eggs 
and then it was salad 
binded you.
They do.
They do bind you
But you'd have to take something to make you 
but the thing is you can you eat fruit in between see Hayle so you're having  you know,you your roughage.
Yeah your roughage with that yeah.
Oh I see.
As well like in between.
When I went to slimming I used to get  
I tell you what I lost a stone and half in two weeks
I used to have erm 
by sticking to that.
I'd get up in the morning I'd have my two pieces of wholemeal bread toasted with a scraping of marmalade on, right, and my butter cos I like that.
For my dinner then I'd have er jacket potato with tuna  then about four o'clock I would have an apple and an orange and maybe a Mars Bar cos  right.
And then before eight o'clock then I would make myself a big meal, I'd have a, a huge salad  I'd do tinned potatoes cos they were, on this diet tinned potatoes aren't fattening
Aren't they?
No they're not.
No so I'd have tinned potatoes 
I don't like them I don't like  
I'd have tuna fish, I'd have ham, everything because you can eat as much meat  you could sit down and eat  cabbage, swedes, runner beans, cauliflower, peas  every vegetable 
That's what I'm doing for him now.
But I don't like veg I don't.
and that's not counted in your, in your calories, you can just eat that, it's all free so you can eat as much as you like of that.
Cos if I was really hungry I used to go upstairs, I'd get all the frozen veg out, I'd cook a bit of everything
It's not so bad  
I'd slam a pork chop under the grill and I'd just eat that.
And it used to fill me up and I'd 
Yeah.
that's nothing then, I could eat as much as that as I liked.
And bacon's not fattening grilled on this diet, you can eat as much bacon as you like as long as you cut the fat off and grill it.
That's on this Slimming World diet is it?
It's marvellous yeah, I lost weight on it.
What we'll have to do Hayley right, when she starts now she'll have to tell us what she's eating every day 
I've got a book in the house.
Yeah.
and then we can do the same.
I've got a book in the house.
And we can always 
Well I'll have a new book now when I go, right, and you can have my old one.
Thing is it is healthier and I mean this tablet lark now more I'm thinking about it, right
Oh Hayley it's not doing you any good at all.
it w I, it can't be, I,
Hayley I tell you what, have a word with my mother because my mother's done it for years, always taken tablets, and I reckon this is half her problem now cos she's got to her old age  she's on the change, and these things have affected her throughout her life now.
Cos my mother has taken slimming tablets, I can remember a kid, being a kid and my mother always used to take slimming tablets to lose weight.
She's done it all her life and 
She stopped me in town funny enough erm oh a good couple of weeks ago like, she says to me  oh have you heard, cos I was saying about oh we'd seen something in the shop, it was ever so nice, I said oh I'm too fat for that she said ooh have you seen, she must be erm infat you know bloody infatuated with dieting 
My mother's infatuated with dieting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hi.
Hiya.
No I shouldn't think   The girls bought you a bottle each look
you can either take them home or you can have one  
No?
Do you want something, a soft drink before you go?
No     look.
Is it cold  
Never.
Freezing.
Is it?
Absolutely bitter.
You don't realize when you're in here you see do you?
No and it don't look it does it?
No.
Mind I've been cold all night and I'm cold now.
It's 
Oh it'll be bloody  in the house.
Russell home?
He's in bed I expect.
I  
You should make him sleep on your side and then when you come in he should move over.
I've never seen him like this though, I've never se he hasn't shaved for about four days.
That's not like him, he shaves every other day.
Why?
He's just not well, he's just really not well with this flu 
Oh.
we've had it, went, he went back to the doctors today and she said it could take up to six to eight weeks to get out your system.
He hasn't been back to work since Christmas.
He'd''ve had really, well this is the  he goes back on Monday and he've had a month off  been off for a month.
How you managing then, money-wise?
We're not.
Just  innit?
He'll get sick  won't he?
The thing is 
I haven't got a television licence.
Oh aye he gets sick but he don't get  
You should be wondering why 
Yeah but he'll get tax back won't he?
We haven't got a television licence we haven't.
I'm just waiting for a man to knock my door and say well, you know, cos you can fined a lot don't you?
Got your own telly?
Yeah.
Where'd you get it from?
Asdas years and years ago.
Years ago this was when it was Carfours 
And you've never had a visit?
No.
Oh perhaps  when i when it was Carfour 
Yeah.
Perhaps  
Why what what ?
Well no I just wondered if you've had your own telly and you've just got it private you know, I mean they wouldn't have no records
We've had it for years.
Well Russell bought it when he was at home in his mother's house.
And then we, when we got married we took it to our house.
I mean it is a bit, well
The only way they check  now is if you go  hire.
About ten years?
Yeah.
If you've just bought it from a shop  and you've had it years 
Yeah.
Anyway now they spot check.
Yeah but  they can can't they?
They can ch they can do you without having your telly on now, they can still
If you've got a telly in the house without having a licence.
And I mean it's, it's a lot of money innit?
and it's without havi without having a telly on.
I've got erm   the other night, right, and next door 
And you can stop them from coming in as well if you've got debts like, yeah.
Yeah it says, I read the thing and it says  I haven't gotta let them in unless they've got a warrant so the first time they come they wouldn't have a warrant, surely, so they're gonna have to go away and get a warrant and in that time then I'd have to get a licence wouldn't I?
Well you could answer the door now and you say well I don't know love, I'm only the cleaner, they won't be back.
Yeah well that's it.
So the other night my, the girl next door to us, her husband does painting and he'd just got himself a new van  I said fucking hell I said to him sometimes I said there's a van outside  I wanna know who it is  , is that still on?
Oh no  
Oh fucking hell!
Who turned it off?
Dunno it just went click.
You bloody liars.
Did didn't it Lyn?
You swear on there now.
You can swear on there!
You can say  fucking  
Ooh   
Ooh.
Oh no Deb that's  the seat  
It was me.
My mother said erm  Christmas Eve wasn't time and a half, it was an ordinary night.
Oh  
But it's still not enough, for heaven's sake.
No I know that she said it's not enough.
I mean like I said on a Friday we get thirteen seventy five till twelve o'clock.
Christmas Eve  
till half past eleven.
I know.
So you get paid till half past twelve Christmas Eve look, so it's thirteen seventy five till twelve that we normally get paid on a Friday.
Ain't it disgusting?
We don't pay enough in the club man.
They only pay  
So you mean  Christmas Eve they paid you normal time?
Yeah, normal time for Christmas Eve right.
I won't work any time  
Boxing night was time and half and New Year's Eve was time and half.
Now I ask you 
Everywhere else is double time.
Well that's it 
fifty quid last New Year's Eve didn't we?
Yeah but you know why don't you?
Because they paid us extra because nobody else worked with us, it was only me and you and my mother.
So remember the committee said oh we'll pay you extra?
That's why.
Yeah but there was more of you so the more of you that works they're not gonna pay you are they?
That's it.
I said d do you know what I, I was the only 
So she's better off  
Yeah but how stupid can they be because I mean the less of you are you, I mean you can't serve as many as  it's, it's stupid innit?
I mean
They're not taking as much  
They're not taking as much 
No but not only that 
and people get pissed off don't they?
So they buy double usually don't they, well I would.
If I thought oh bollocks I'm not standing here again.
Yeah but they get served in the end see, by the end of the night they get served don't they, you know?
Cos they, you know
Yeah but not only that I mean, if they get paid double time everywhere else why should we be any bloody different?
They don't get paid double time at the  
Oh cos it's a con right.
On er New Year's Eve.
She buys them presents.
Oh my God!
Ev well I don't know about this year mind but every Christmas I worked there she never paid us double time for anything over Christmas, she was always bought us a present.
Christmas Eve  
And what was it the present?
Well one, one year Russell had  
Was it something good like or?
he had aftershave and I had erm  perfume I did.
Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve are two  double time   cos he wanted me to work  and I wouldn't cos it wasn't double time.
Oh.
Well do you know, out of all the girls who work New Year's Eve right, I told them on the night, oh I said we'll get about forty pound for tonight won't I, because it's double time  and I was the only one who complained about it when I had my pay.
Nobody else because, no 
but I said, I had a shock  on the Sunday and that's  
How much did you have then, time and half?
I get thirty pound twenty five pence.
For New Year's Eve.
Yeah for New Year's Eve.
I started at half past six and I worked until two o'clock in the morning.
And I got thirty pound twenty five for it.
Half past six, half past seven, half past eight, half past nine, half past ten, half past eleven, half past twelve, half past one  you're talking seven and a half hours.
Seven and a, it's a full shift innit?
But not only that I mean it's New Year's Eve, everybody else is bloody getting drunk and enjoying themselves and you're stuck doing the bloody bar.
Yeah cos no fucking  no one wants to do it do they?
Yeah well then next year they'll have no one to do it will they?
I'm not doing it next year, I said that.
They won't have anybody doing it.
No but mother said she's gonna sort it all out before Christmas comes because she said otherwise I'm not gonna get the bar staff to work.
Mm.
Cos I told her I'm not working.
And like, now, it's not fair  is it?
And I'm not working next year anyway cos I've done it for two years on the run and I'm not doing it next year.
I've done it five, this is the first time in five years I've had New Year's Eve off.
And I was determined, and your mother was 
I'd done it for four years on the trot.
looking at me as if hey erm and all  this like   you know she was looking as if 
In a way I think Gwynn had one too many New Year's Eve.
Because 
Never!
honestly now  
I told her  
Yeah as long as one  
No, no listen, listen, listen now right, last year when we both worked Hayley what was it like?
The committee were in there, they had all their special seats there, their drinks ready right, and they said right girls, you ready now to start?
And all of a sudden they unlock them doors out there and they come running 
Oh that's true, yeah.
in here
Pair of us had panic attacks didn't we?
I had a panic attack, I told her, I said I'm shaking all over.
And I thought if I go from behind this bar now I'll never go back behind it now.
So I calmed down see and I was alright after about ten minutes.
But this year it was much better because they'd let them all in because it was raining weren't it?
So they couldn't leave them all standing outside.
Bloody stupid anyway.
So when they walked in here it was packed in there and it was full in the bar.
Even if they'd let them in let them get their seats and said look the bar is not open.
Well that's what they should do every year because do you know what it was much better this year.
They do it in the Labour Club, you can go in there
Within ten, fifteen 
right 
minutes we'd serne served everybody by that bar this year.
Now what was it like last year, all night long we slogged didn't we?
They let them stood out there in all that rain didn't they?
Yeah.
I mean in most clubs I mean they come in, they have a game of cards 
They let you in but the bar's not open.
don't they, get their tables and that?
They're too fucking old man, the commi you've got all this down and I've just slagged them off.
Who?
They might use this against us.
What are you on about you
who's gonna use it against us, the club?
I'm paranoid now.
You dopey cow.
Well she, like I say next year, if they're not paying double time she's gonna get no one to work is she?
Well that's why she said she's gotta sort it out 
The thing is see Betty  right  I mean Olive by here, she's not  is she?
And Stan on the end.
They d haven't got a clue see have they now Bet?
No that's it .
You like bacon crisps you     
That's all  bacon .
No I tell you why I chucked them is because they're a better make aren't they, K P?
I like the Dragon though I do.
They're not bad really, they, no but I mean you do get a few damp ones now and again don't you?
They go off 
Oh aye.
Have you tried Asda onion rings?
And you know what  No I haven't 
Oh they repeat on you don't they?
Oh I love them you know  
Oh I love the Chipsticks I do, the salt and vinegar chipsticks, I love them.
Oh what's those ones  
Oh and I do.
Mm.
Oh strong as hell.
I can have a bloody big bag in front of me 
watching the telly and eat the whole bag it's 
Yeah.
Salt and vinegar chipsticks.
I love them.
I do that with those prawn Skips is it?
Those prawn things?
Oh I, I like them but I prefer the crisp ones.
But I ate myself silly on them last night and made myself feel sick so I'll never eat them again now.
What's those ones we've got, Skips?
And don't you feel guilty after, you sit there and think 
Yeah, yeah but I, I ate 
What's that crinkly crisp we've got ?
Oh you like them, I'm not fussed on them, you know those big chip potatoes with the, the ridges in erm
Crinkly ones.
Jackets 
Oh I know I know them.
ones, he likes them, I don't but that's 
Yeah that's they're too hard for me.
They're like a  
Yeah, and me.
Too much like hard work.
Well have I got time for another drink an'all?
Has she love?
Do you mind?
aye.
I wouldn't mind one either.
Well have one  
I'll have to pay for mine  I haven't got any in.
What?
Now Gordon, will listen to this tape now tomorrow right and  he'll say to me  
I have, I've got three left so you can have one of mine.
Ah I'll have one of Hayley's Deb, you can pour this  
and he'll say to me it's    
You stupid cow Bet.
alright,
What you having Lyn?
Lyn.
, cider please.
It's only cos I'm not going out tomorrow night this is.
Aren't you?
No I haven't been out since Boxing night!
wh what are you doing there?
Getting packet of crisps.
Carry on now, they are for us.
I just  
Yeah you can make me some, I don't know what I, I don't want anything but I dunno 
all I've eaten in the last week and one day is   salads 
Yeah well that's 
Oh you're on a diet as well are you?
Oh I, well the thing is he  I can't cook chips Lyn if I'm doing it, it's not fair is it?
No.
I mean he got to anyway.
So if you diet he's gotta diet?
Me and him'd sit and eat from half past six 
I'm very lucky 
till we went to bed.
I'm very lucky er I don't cook.
Russell does all the cooking, I never cook.
Does he?
and I said right  so I had  gammon pineapple peas and chips right?
I enjoy it though Lyn I do.
Well I don't like cooking, I do the washing up mind.
I mean I go out 
I enjoy cooking.
I'd cook anything.
and clean up the mess after him.
He just cooks and 
Oh I do that as well.
Oh I enjoy it though, I've gotta be honest.
gone to bed right, say you've gone half past ten, eleven gone to sleep 
woke up about two starving and gone out and cooked  
We have,that's how bad, that's why I have to t er have those tablets.
What do you do, go downstairs and cook  
Oh I   bed and go to sleep.
We wake up and 
Well we go to bed about  half past ten, eleven, go to sleep we wake up 
We talk about food.
she'll go down  
And then you go down and make food do you?
I go down, yeah.
No matter what time it is?
No and eat chips.
two plates packed with stuff right 
I know we, I've done that.
Well what I do is like put it on a tray, right what we do is  in the night  right and  if you'd stayed up late I'd put cheese 
Do you want anything dad?
Soft drink or something or 
out and crackers out and  
Then I'll do like, if I've got bread rolls I'll do them  and we'll go upstairs, we'll take drinks up with us and we'll eat that, and then the next morning we wake up and the bedroom's stinking of pickles and things like that you know?
Disgusting.
I mean one Friday I come, I left here about ten to one I went in the house  and I went to bed and I was starving and Gordon says oh I'm hungry I, so I went out straight down the stairs, come back up with a bloody big tray  cups of teas now when I, after drinking down here, pasties now what I'd taken home what I didn't sell here, crisps, sandwiches  and a after I'd ate it I felt so guilty.
You couldn't go back to sleep then.
I couldn't go back to sleep, but I felt so guilty about what I'd eaten.
Ooh I know.
Like say last week me and Russell never got up before, oh my mother and father come to the house right and it was quarter past ten  and we were still in bed and my father put the milk  cos the, my milkman leaves my milk by the gate because, with the dog, he always used to leave the gate open so I used to let the dog out in the morning and the dog would go out  so I said don't put the milk by the door, leave it just, put it over the gate cos I like the gate left shut.
So that's what he does and my father come in, put the milk by the door, knocked the door and me and Russell were still in bed fast asleep.
I mean we'd been up 
Did they knock you up then?
No she left us still.
And waking up about a quarter past ten, go downstairs and make tea and toast  takes the paper up, I take Freeman's catalogue  put the, the wireless on and he's looking through the paper and I'm  looking through Freeman's catalogue  saying 
oh this'll look nice in the summer like, yeah yeah  I know, and we were in bed .
Turn over then and go back to sleep for an hour and thought oh I've gotta get up now the dog's whining to go out, then we get up then when the dog starts whining to go out.
God I haven't bloody done that for years.
We've done it a I said to Russell, I'm really gonna miss you when you go back to work on Monday I'll have no snuggle in bed in the morning.
He goes at half past five and I won't know what to do.
W how long have he been off?
God he goes early doesn't he?
A month.
Oh you'll ge start getting fed up now.
Aye but I don't see, I don't, I don't mind him, no, you know 
You don't?
So you you don't like really being on your own then ?
Well  I should say that but when he's at work he works shifts but I  I am on 
Yeah but you're not used to him being home all the time are you Lyn, I mean  for a long period of time like.
Yeah I'm on my own, like when he's afternoons 
Like I am.
he goes
Oh D Deb I tell you what it must be amazing.
He been out of work since September the  sixth.
Because you, you bicker,yo you see  
Four months now.
Yeah I don't say we don't row, I don't say we don't argue and get on each other 's nerves, we do, but when he goes back to work now for a couple of days it'll take me  three or four days to settle down into not having him there.
Oh y yeah that do, you  
I mean when he's nights right, I'm on my own, I mean I love it, I have a bath  
Oh I don't like it when he's nights.
I paint my nails, I do what I wa I can do what I wanna do.
Like if I sit there painting my nails he'll say  what started that?
What are you doing that for now?
Dog don't like the smell of that like, but  how you are 
Yeah I know.
you know, but  I'm there on my own I can pot do my hair, do what I wanna do  go up the stairs, have a bath, you know, just do what I, drop my clothes where I wanna drop them  and everything.
But I mean I do get used to being on my own and then like  I mean I say he's there like the, the other morni he went down his mother's and he didn't come back till three o'clock so he's not there  constantly all the time.
No.
We can't sleep in  the door.
Well it's
Well it's like open house is it eh?
Oh d i er I dunno whether it's 
Fucking terrible, next door  
it's not that, it's, it's next door but not only that  I mean friends, my friends I mean 
But it's mostly next door,
What they do then, they're in and out are they?
It's all borrowing!
I couldn't stand that see.
I mean I can't  in, I like to shut my door, I mean I don't mind people coming to visit me  but I couldn't stand people in and out, in and out my house all day, that would crack me up.
Well
My sister moved from  cos of that.
I never knew  until I mo 
when I moved to Penrhyn and  my mother said you won't like it now she said, she said they make you  she said 
Oh yeah.
and when I first moved up there I thought  oh yeah, what's happening, yeah.
What's going on here, yeah.
I don't have it.
There was kids in my door  
It's quiet though where I live though.
It's quiet where I live but they're, they're nosy.
They know your business even though you think they don't, they do cos I tell you  
Oh well it's, I think it's like that wherever you live though.
Do you know Maggie who works in the paper shop?
Glasses?
Yeah.
She lives next door but one to me
Never!
My mother and father know when me and Russell have had a row on Saturday night
right, before I even  my mother knows before we know it if you know what I mean then.
Mm.
My mother has rung me on a Sunday morning and said oh you had a row last night and I'd say how do you know  oh your father went to paper shop this morning.
Oh need you ask.
One night right Russell
always look on the bright side of life   bright side of life  
I was drawing and I read and  and I played with toys and I read  this game
Who'd you play with in school then?
and I played with David.
Did you?
Yeah on the news today 
bomb went off in London.
I got
Never!
not far from ten Downing Street.
Don't.
It's ridiculous.
Sean will you stop it.
Ah ah ah 
I don't think 
There's one there.
Oh they're off!
And he didn't wanna go to bed so  I put him up.
I could hear him running across the landing and messing about.
What's that?
I could hear him running across the landing I said, and messing about.
But they went asleep after anyway.
Well I cleaned all the windows Gordon, right?
Want to get 
All 
out?
Yeah.
All the back, right?
Yeah.
Outside as well.
Window like?
Yes.
And cleaned the windows up the side .
Having a brain storm or what?
And erm  well I thought, I'd well I'll do my nets and put them up you see Gordon, cos then it'll be finished with wouldn't it?
So I ironed this big net here,Gordon.
What's that?
I ironed my big net here and it meant to go up in the window there.
But it's a little bit too long  there, so  you know them nails that are in  you know the nails, they're already in the window?
Ah.
I tried to pull them out but I couldn't.
What for?
To, to put them nails up up a little bit on the window that's all.
Only about an inch see, that's all the   
Maybe I should er
Is it safe to go out alone?
only popping out then.
So I just   then you can pull them nails out.
Do you want any potatoes?
Roast potatoes?
Ah!
Go on, chuck another .
And erm  I got my ironing out the way and then I can go to my mother then, and start to paint, paint the bathroom tomorrow.
Alright.
And you see 
Windows are looking bright today!
Not for me, go and have a lay down.
It's called Ironweed.
I  well it hasn't long started.
It didn't start till ten past ten.
Who's cat ?
So
He said do you want a pint?
I said, no I don't bother.
I gotta let him go anyway.
He's .
You should have made him buy you a bloody pint!
Ah!
Ah, but I didn't want one did I?
Especially with him now, you get him work.
Does that mean all them outings?
No, I haven't got any more of them.
! Johnny fixes them.
Well you  an hour aren't you now?
They're hopeless anyway!
. That's what they look like.
How much do you get a pint over there now then?
It's twenty five pence off innit?
Twenty pence.
Oh Wayne told me it was twenty five pence off a pint.
Oh Wa Wa , Wayne ?
Wayne .
And he said, all they did, they gotta pay a pound to go in.
You mean you gotta pay a pound as well?
No, I asked him, he said he's a member.
Is he?
I didn't think about that.
So he's a member of the Comrades as well then?
Ah?
He's a member of the Comrades and in the social.
I know , aye.
Well you got a foreigner there .
My mother had a complaint today, your family's old feller   but she said, whenever you get a better  she's always goes and sees somebody else.
My mother turned round and said, well you should, you tell her, you should say to her look, I'm next!
Serve me!
Lucy and your mother comes to take the mickey don't she?
Yeah well   
No, well tell it to your mother.
No cos then Stuart  like, it's up to 
Yeah.
the cleaner to sort that out.
Complaints like.
sort it out.
But he did go up to my mother and say, like, you know.
Well your mother should have said yo , you .
My mother said, you wanna see Alison and tell her look, I am next!
You know, say what you told me, it's no good telling me!
Reg, oh Reggie it is.
Yeah?
The one with the bald head.
I wish they could have  on one I hear.
Mm.
It's nearly midnight innit?
Mm.
See
Was is it a foul then?
I think it's silly to go over there, then they don't play bingo do they?
They spe spending it all on the  snooker or whatever.
What did you have to do with it?
Ah!
Well that , just the command you get here .
See the baby's teeth?
There are four down the bottom now, four up the top.
Yeah.
All in front there.
Either that way  
I bet they're  didn't it?
That's like his dad.
And he's .
Ain't he?
Yeah, but no colour.
Do you feel better now?
Mm.
Are you getting ?
Oh!
Gordon went over the club like last night.
To pay his contributions and then go shaping up.
Fi four pound it
Mm.
for the year.
And he, had a glass of squash he was drinking all night.
He was in by ten, mind, time he'd played Elsie and shouted at, flyer a line  twenty six pound.
Never!
So see, I told her I was working him well didn't I?
She said you can have it and do what you want with it!
But Gordon, he wants jeans badly they're all splitting!
She just said well get him some, get a pair of jeans out of it.
Nice of her.
He said he wanted two for a flyer for a hundred pound  wages!
So he kept saying, oh don't bother going out tonight go after next Saturday  for an hour like.
He said, oh no I'll take his line and I haven't got the money to 
Oh!
pay out the way.
I went and got  last night and I'm saying to him, now give me your numbers.
And  Pam was se , serving  you should see her numbers now.
And then  I got another two  and I was sa said some numbers in it, and Pam said, no they're not the ones they've put down she said.
I were too late anyway, she took it.
Those numbers come out!
The ones you had put down?
Mm.
Bet she was off then.
Mm!
. Oh!
Have you paid for your tickets now?
No.
Let me pay for our tickets now then.
Then pay .
No.
Well I think a they are.
Yeah.
The fire, central heating's on er down there.
Was Alec there?
No.
Is he still shaving or
Aye.
What did dad say  about  what I did with Alec?
What I said about him saying he's not changed any?
Dunno.
And he was going  I know you don't mind Sheila he said, I'm gonna go, I'm going to Spain for holiday.
And when you going?
Beginning of June.
I says, oh aye!
A great feller, I think, he said  Oh!
It'll be alright she said.
Got her tickets, I'm coming he said she'll be, everything's paid.
And I said, what you on about?, he said  if I do , if I don't pay out two hundred and odd pound now that left for our tickets he said, I've only hundred and odd come in, he said you can have a drink on the rest!
If get out tonight.
He said,o I hope you're not thinking of  away so I can have these tickets he said?
Because, he said I'm not looking.
He said she's gonna give you  six hundred pounds worth of tickets, you give her six hundred pound cheque.
Yeah?
Well, he said well we haven't had it.
Who is he?
Aye, he's gonna, go for nothing.
Dunno what he was thinking of  Val said.
Talking a load of rubbish!
Go round the again car again and throw them to the kids.
Perhaps they'll get a .
Will you?
Mm!
Now looks as if it's in her hair there the way things  
No cos I got his 
Sean's jumper!
she had erm,e , Sean bought it round there  and I picked that one cos the other one was same as the one he already had.
And I get it green for her now.
And I get it green for when she stands up in class.
She was sitting there tonight she had to buy one of them   bar.
What?
.
And Mandy was round there.
She's seen him and went in with the electric bill  and he, he bought hundred and sixty pound in  stamps.
What, is she taking in the night  dressing gown  is she?
Because she said erm  cos Chris is living there now he's gonna show us what he can do she said.
She said, he got his stereo on his stereo on upstairs on and off.
Like she's been  innit?
What?
I said, well why didn't you get up .
She don't know where she put it then?
I said, oh th fifteen pound a fortnight.
Well she said, well I worked out about ninety pound  at the end of the quarter like.
She said, well mine, she said would be further than sixty pound at the end, a hundred and twenty at the end of the quarter, but she said oh this time it's gonna be about a hundred sixty so it's crippling me living here!
So she said, how much will I be putting in a fortnight she said in a  electric cooker?
Well it's about time her daughter paid it!
Give towards innit?
Mandy won't be living at home now.
He's on the dole, lucky if he's gets thirty pound a week.
And Mandy gets thirty four pound a week, one year's benefit, and she'll get the family allowance  set now.
But she's on about forty pound a week .
And sh she don't take nothing off them, she buys all the food!
He's only on invalidity, Graham is!
And that Carole gets eighteen pound for herself.
Not invalidity.
Sixty pounds week.
So she's on eighteen pound, they'll owe  say eighty pound a week rent.
Won't she get a job?
Oh mam!
But she's already in so bloody pain  you know, like sick.
then I found a bloody job!
And I cal , I called Alec yesterday morning like  and asked, you know I said to him there's only one  and I said it's the last one down there like.
Soon the place should go back to normal.
No he said  leave it a at sixty five pence.
So of course, when we did 
Are you in it then?
Aye.
We're in it  every day now and Tommy was on like last night when I went in, Tommy was on to now  say it.
You know, like it should be  back to normal because
Well it was back to normal.
Way to back to normal weeks ago.
Oh aye!
That's right, aye.
I, oh well.
But there's still a few   a few more.
Aye.
Can't bloody keep any boilers there.
Nah.
already then?
Penny?
Penny.
So give me your twenty pound eleven now.
And ma , mark it off your card so I know where I am.
Right?
And if you give me dad's five pound well I can mark his off and then you can tell him then, I'll leave your card here and you can say you've paid and you owe me five pound.
He knows he's gotta give it to you then.
I've gotta have it now to sort the bloody money out!
Gotta pen.
Drawer.
I ain't got five pound.
Ah?
I haven't got five pound on me.
How much you got?
Te twenty.
Two twenties.
There's mine.
Your father's given you there.
Ah, oh it  what?
I'll give you twenty now.
Right.
Date today, fourteenth?
Mm.
There are  a month later the twenty eighth .
Fourteen the first ninety two.
Twenty pound off  you owe ten pound.
Then Carole'll give me five pound a week now look, and then you finish in two weeks love and then  you can order covers or whatever you wanna order.
Mm.
I don't owe anything.
coat now, I'm gonna start paying for it  Friday.
And what's  gonna pay, five pound?
Or one fifty is it?
Yeah.
I'll leave dad's card you .
Four ninety nine like he owes.
Well I'll see him anyway definitely when he comes back.
Yeah.
I know.
asking him then?
What?
Yeah.
I saw this right, on a
You said that one today.
Yeah.
And the green one there.
I'll get er  too much sleep.
Are we going?
No.
Don't you fancy going up today?
Not if I know the same .
I know.
I'm sorry!
Dad's pretty keen.
Yeah.
Do you want that on?
Yes.
Well it said  three wrong.
Well you got that right didn't you?
Got that right.
Mm.
Is he coming down, he'll be down shortly.
Can I  take that?
I think we're going out the movies.
Are you?
Aye.
He just the essay then.
So you didn't ask her to go.
No I didn't..
Is she playing  tonight?
Yeah.
Did you play er whatsername?
Aye.
Yeah.
The edge.
It's  that that little  he couldn't find it.
He couldn't find it.
Is that my mummy?
And when this is going, turn round the other way.
No no!
No, no, no, no!
I know!
That's enough!
No 
Ah!
no, no, no!
Whereabouts, why would I put them there?
Oh he's put it off!
Ah!
so what do you wanna with it?
Put it up li come up like that.
I've seen that.
I know that.
Well it was.
There you are.
Very good!
There are you.
Thank you.
Do you think I should ?
Yeah.
Hang on!
We wanted to ride in those.
Yeah.
Yeah well I'll tell you what's wrong with them.
Ah!
Dad!
Didn't even know how to do this!
Oi!
Oi!
That's no way to talk Sean!
No, I I er, said no way, like I was gonna say 
Like you do this morning?
you've lost your shoe.
That's better.
He was gonna tell you  this morning he said look at me with  daddy!
And slept alright didn't you?
Yeah.
Are you sleeping with us then?
I think she er  woke up about  what ti time did Kirsty wake up?
I couldn't tell you what it is.
You know what it is.
You wake up any  any time last week at all?
.
Oh!
What's that?
No I hope he didn't.
I er  Kirsty went to sleep.
I couldn't  ow!
Look she's hitting me!
You slept in there didn't you?
Yes I did.
Who told you?
No, nobody I just, just I  can you Patrick if he was out there?
Where?
He's coming to play with me.
Need someone to play with.
Oh yeah.
It's up to there.
I dunno .
Have you got a  
Ah, you fix that up for me Sean would you?
Thursday or Friday or
Thursday's better for us to go and then nanny took it apart .
Yeah!
It's good!
Because there's a lot of different parts u , I need to go there.
That's in the bathroom.
I know you're gonna  I know you're gonna 
Cos you I need
I know you're gonna put it on my chair.
What's that?
Do you want it to work?
Yeah.
What has he put on the 
Oh!
I dunno.
Oh no!
Why are you sending to it  with that?
I dunno.
We've got plenty of them in your box.
And did you wanna go that way?
Did you?
In the middle?
You know what they are there don't you?
What?
There are  some withdrawal symptoms though don't he?
I've been 
Yeah.
sleeping in bed.
I know you do.
Good girl aren't you?
What's on your head Kirsty?
. Yeah, you've got something there!
Well  never mind, it'll come out.
Must have put your hair in  did you?
It looks just right for a helicopter man.
There you are!
I told you there should be one there.
Only thing is, he hasn't got nothing on his head!
But you got plenty haven't you?
I know!
Put this on him!
I've got the, where's Kirsty?
as well!
Yeah.
There's those coats Gordon, there's several of them after those coats that er  I gotta take them for .
What are they jackets or  coats on Thursdays?
Yeah yo one o , one of the red coats
Talking about that one er er  
in there 
there's  one's there.
No, no, no one is a red  woollen coat  you know, with the buttons up to the top.
And something else she said  she, oh!
Oh, the pink  jacket anorak 
Like the one I bought for Kirsty.
don't fit she says  she says we'll have it.
And I pu , I got a  
Oh dad the wheel on !
He's   then moved it over a bit.
Want anything else then Sean?
I haven't stuck the gears on.
You can move them anyway you want to Sean, it's up to you to do that  to work them.
So you're fast 
And even then a lot of this stuff to get on and off.
It's only part of the Lego this Sean and make a  look holding the stick.
I haven't stuck that as well have I Sean.
Well I know how to put it on anyway.
It tips, so you can put these on.
Well, I didn't stick it all because 
My, my book's come off 
so that you could play with it isn't it?
It looks good!
So stick these back on.
Mm.
Oops!
Come stick with me.
Alright.
That's this one.
Is there two books in her hand?
Lovely, lovely tractor!
Is there two books in her hand?
So Sean's got the .
And I put them in back of her hood cos she couldn't hold my hand.
So he put them 
Yes.
in her hood and Sean watched her bringing
Well you just pay for that.
And they never fell out.
You had to read it use Sean's library book.
Yeah, they used to mine.
The Cooper Family Lived On It's Own .
We've got two of those!
Have you?
They were disturbing  at the top .
And there was Nebbins.
Nebbins was Mr Cooper's only horse.
Nebbins was Mr Cooper's only horse who worked very hard, pulled the plough and the hay cart, and his, all the other jobs that a horse had to do on a farm.
Nebbins was happy!
He had lived with the Coopers nearly all his life and all Coopers like him, especially Tom .
There's Tom look!
Kirsty.
See Tom with the apple there.
Tommy came to the barn every day after Nebbins work was finished and always brought him an apple, or a lump of sugar.
Great brother Jim gave him fresh water and plenty of oats.
One day a terrible thing happened!
And Mr Cooper and Nebbins were returning from the field   
Like that!
Now they've picking hands look!
Mm!
You can put them on the  and now it stings my hand cos I  cos 
Never mind.
Never mind.
I caught , I caught took my hand to those cats.
Dad bought your bike down here.
I didn't even feel like
Only that you've not been on his bike   or yesterday.
I thought perhaps, you'd bring your bike down.
I got a little purse!
I know!
That's lovely that.
I only just taken his bike for him cos it went a bit rusty cos out the back and er  couldn't find  then could we?
I only once then we lost it again, lost the  somewhere, it's up the hill somewhere but I don't know where.
Well I bought you a couple isn't it?
Yeah.
I it's up the hill somewhere but I can't find it.
Oh dad!
The tractor is here come and see!
Of course Nebbins had never seen a tractor before, he wondered what it was.
When they reached the farmyard there it stood, a great shiny red thing with big wheels at the back and little wheels in front.
And what a fuss everyone was making about it!
Tommy was climbing all over it!
And Jim was giving it a drink of water.
Why he was the one who had always bought Nebbins a drink when he came home.
Today, no one paid any attention to Nebbins, not even Tommy!
Old Nebbins felt hurt and slowly set off towards  .
What, well is Nebbins the tractor?
No!
The horse!
Ah!
That Nebbins heard Mr Cooper and the tractor returning from the field.
Jim and Tommy were with him.
Mr Cooper drove it straight into the barn and stopped next to Nebbins   
I can't fit the gear in now!
I told you it was hard didn't I?
Mm.
Have to take it out.
You shouldn't of take him off see Sean.
How dreadful thought Nebbins!
Let's see if I can do it for you.
Mr Cooper and the boys rushed over .
No, you've glued it all up.
Now
No I haven't glued this er  gear bits on there.
Oh that, yeah!
Cos it fell off all the time.
Cos it, if erm  if that 
If you could pull that off you can put it on .
Oh, I'll keep them on.
Will you see if I can put it on too Sean?
No I don't want them to be there.
How dreadful!
Nebbins kicking his knees out!
Mr Cooper and boys rushed over to calm him.
At last they were closing the barn door hearing Mr Cooper say  Jim I could  
You know the entrance to the ?
The ?
aha.
There.
Oh aye.
Do you want anything?
When you was up at Teddys thought a bit little and it was, it was  achanical .
Quite big isn't it?
It's not achanical , it's mechanical.
Mechanical because it's it's it's erm  when it's  things need kind of things like that.
It looks mechanical don't it?
I I it looks like a little mechanical 
You know what mechanical, and I think he's on a train.
You know why they can't put more carriages on a train?
Why?
Platforms not long enough.
But it's not stopping you see!
No.
Well you 
You don't 
stop there but er
Yeah!
But only certain times.
Oh!
But they  nowadays they have a full  coming over.
They can't stop, that's it.
Not big enough er
Go along the line  
it was in the paper about that.
It 
Yes.
was in the paper about the other car coming along that one.
No they announced it.
You see, because the two two quarters there look  they overlap!
And yet, years ago they used to be long, long trains.
I it's the new, new   
Ah!
But that's a new station, new platform see.
Yeah.
is a longer one.
I mean they could have gone, look how long Aberech station, er platform is.
Be, be massive innit!
It's massive!
Can't they extend it?
That's what I'm doing now ripping it all out.
Ooh!
That's what you've been doing.
Oh!
That's good!
Oh!
Because when people come to catch our train at twenty five to five i i it's announcing us that train.
Yeah.
I've gotta be there now.
Don't stop at the .
Let me go and wash my hands first.
Grandpa.
Loo 
I'm the only one who done it yesterday!
Grandpa , look at my train!
I'll be there now.
Let Grandpa wash his hands first.
Cos 
Is that the tea on?
ga , I'm collecting because, and stuff like this.
I'll go and make a cup of tea.
And when are  the diggers going on the road?
Oh !
And they dig a packet up.
He, and he 
Have you had breakfast?
come here, trailer and track.
Yeah.
And he says the Queen don't wanna 
Yeah, I've had breakfast.
carry it on here
What about ?
so, he carries it on the trailer like that
What did you want for breakfast ?
on the road when they wanna go to another 
Er 
building sites, and they finished the other building sites.
What did she have for breakfast Gordon?
Kirsty had Weetabix.
And this is a 
Yes.
rescue  helicopter.
And what did you have Sean?
Is that a helicopter or a plane?
Helicopter.
Helicopter.
Do you like do you?
It was quite good that helicopter Gordon.
Yeah.
What did you have for breakfast Sean?
You had toast didn't you?
Did you have toast for breakfast?
You going out ?
And there's so much little things on it!
Are you going out with me today?
Yeah.
With me?
Yeah?
Are you sure?
Yeah.
And Kirsty?
Nan.
After breakfast?
Yeah.
Nan?
My chocolate sponge.
Yeah.
Nan?
What love?
I'm glad you're coming with me  cos  it's so much little stuff on 
They are.
No I'm not doing it Sean.
I'll get it when we come back.
And  not doing it he or with you because he wouldn't even let, alright then.
I didn't glue them all there, I just glued some of it 
Some of it.
so that when it er, come apart  you would have some of it together and some of it would bond together  so that you could do it yourself then.
Yeah.
Anyway 
Alright?
anyway dad  I  well you started fixing this didn't you, on Christmas day?
And, when you come home you said  mum  did  did you fix this?
And  and mummy said no.
And then when you come in I was fixing it weren't I?
Yeah.
I fixed 
Yeah.
it!
Yeah.
There was one piece I couldn't fix on.
And I, I don't whether  
Clever boy!
didn't I?
Yeah.
And when I come back you put it on yourself!
Good boy!
And I said you're a good boy didn't I?
You haven't got a flat bit there.
It's on your tape.
On the tape it is.
Nanny put it away for you.
On the tape for me.
Oh!
I got you !
What time did you start last night then  to work?
Te te , ten o'clock.
Ten o'clock?
Well about that.
Dad!
Look ee  I made a little one!
You want this?
And a mechanical helicopter?
Do you want tea Gordon?
Oh aye.
I'll have a cup.
Yeah , I'll have a cup of tea mum please?
Is that your bag there?
Where?
What do you carry in it?
Money?
No.
I've got loads of money!
You could have sat on this then!
No Sean.
Yeah I'm coming out now.
I was watch him how to do it.
You could stand on that.
I dunno how to put 
You'd break it if you stand on that wouldn't you?
Why don't you go and put it on the table love, over there.
There?
You want tea Gordon, yeah?
And you won't get it  on here.
I'll have a cup please, aye.
Ah!
Mm.
Will mine
Ma, do you want him to do that down here love?
Ah, he's taking it all up.
How many's there?
How many down there?
Three fellers.
It's not many.
Three!
Three's a lot!
Kirsty don't like her dummy no more now!
She don't.
No.
She told me that last week!
Good girly, Kirst!
Is this three?
One, two, three.
Good boy!
A stray 'copter.
Brrr!
Brrr!
I like that!
What's that er  over there?
Is that it?
Where?
No, that's Sean and Kirsty's.
I mean in the  they didn't really like that.
Took it back up didn't they?
Oh cos
Wherever they are.
Down there?
Are you?
Oh I got it!
See Manchester United won again yesterday.
Did they?
Yeah!
Go back up to 
One nil against Everton.
Liverpool won too.
Two one they did weren't they?
I said it's three.
Here's a big one.
The game's off.
And Pontypool beat Swansea!
Better be good.
Eh?
Hello Rene.
Hiya!
Alright nan?
Hiya!
A helicopter!
And er  we haven't had it, we haven't received it yet.
You haven't been out again mum?
That's a lot slower.
Ah !
I went  the , if I could have a cosy bag like you.
Well I told you you'd have to order it.
Don't you order at all?
Ooh!
Ta darling.
In a pin shop.
I told you didn't I?
I was ordering it when Becky told me, and then Becky and she said 
Yeah , but well you've gotta go the shop and tell her.
Mum, can I have the telly on ?
The
Yeah.
I remember what it done with me.
The batteries .
Anywhere'll sell batteries.
Yeah.
But  you do come in 
Oh.
and I told you could always pop in.
You got Woolworths here?
Oh yes!
Bu to give you all a hand with it wouldn't it?
Wool shop?
Because you'd have to go and see whoever's in charge.
No, they have them in stock and th they said last week.
No!
They haven't got any as I 
Oh!
already told you!
This, nan?
Hello.
Do you like ?
I haven't got something 
I haven't 
Would they like this?
Ah!
We'll .
I don't think they've tasted it before.
Granddad.
Do you like these?
It's number three  a motorbike.
I put washing out on.
Why?
What 
The 
what ?
This
Ah!
th this this  num num na  this number 
This one 
three, motorbike crashed the car.
The things I pop on the back  
And, and he got a book.
She   got it.
Oh.
Daddy, have you?
If she wants one get it on here.
I'll have to buy one before then.
What?
I can see the whole of the time   
That's what?
Goodness me!
That's what?
Let him  
Oh they'll be giant!
Give him one of them.
I gotta make you for them.
I got two er   and then a big one for me.
And I got  .
Have you finished?
Look i 
You're not finished yet.
it's the grapes  with pips in them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm taking the pips out.
Let him go.
What?
They'll be teasing us in the  club mother won't they?
I  oh yes they will.
I know, but the only thing is they'll be very, very special!
Right.
Can I move that tea cup a bit?
I was  just gonna see 
What about ?
Big sink over there.
Could we go out there?
Ah?
I haven't sent over the card yet.
That's green.
A sympathy card
I asked Debbie yesterday.
I don't know whether to go out.
But one thing I do fi you get a sympathy card I gotta go to the funeral isn't it?
No.
You should post it 
Course not.
already so that they  
If you post this you don't, but don't give it back.
What 
Right?
like this?
post it or give it her.
Well you could do.
Well it's better than making it all up.
No, it doesn't matter about after the funeral we got .
That's alright then, that's what I'm saying, aye.
Erm, oh they're beautiful!
Well if you posted it tomorrow look, she would have it wouldn't she?
Yeah.
Yeah.
She'd have it Tuesday.
I dunno.
I could have got her one up the road this morning.
She'll wait three days.
You should have gone to get it down there.
I forgot to get one yesterday.
I don't think I got one.
.
When he .
I know.
I remember you saying.
Oh !
Hasn't got erm
I expect he'd be .
I didn't have any, yeah!
Say, I've gotta change the .
I could give it to her if I'd had it.
And I'd scraped the cooker  
I had it there.
Isn't it, oh no, I paid her that 
Like one pound thirty he says.
Cos they were said, he just come in nanny, he said he's got the change.
One pound twenty he said, innit?
Thirty.
No!
One pound twenty I think.
One pound thirty then he told me.
Oh!
I only give him one pound twenty.
I got one pound twenty but er, in change but she said, like how much is a bet here and she said one pound thirty.
pound twenty.
Hello!
How are you?
I got people the wrong way!
Yes.
A purse.
Oh give me that.
That's off her dress.
Off your dress.
That's to go with her dress.
Oh these are  .
And then  you are
Oh Gordon, oh Suzanne phoning last night.
And Jimmy?
Oh!
Oh!
Oh!
Oh!
She said 
Ha!
Ha!
they sent us a parcel before Christmas  three weeks before Christmas, and they were ringing  se , because he knew with overseas or anything .
So, she said that er 
Oh oh, oh!
Ha!
Ha!
La !
can we enquire  about it.
But if you remember the last time they sent us a parcel er
It's hardly worth you having anything at all o obviously it's out innit?
they took out loads of things.
They take 
a lot of things out see.
Do they?
Yeah!
Yeah!
Yeah!
They open it.
And when we went to Germany they would say, you know, she said you had our parcel and I said yes, and I said   did you have ?
I said no!
Couple of things Bill wasn't it?
About three things they said that was in the parcel we never had.
Where's my ?
They haven't come in yet.
Oh God!
Bring my trousers woman, if anything!
got to  got that Casanova that,
exactly like it.
He's, he's worse than all the kids!
No!
You got a la 
I know, I can see it.
Right there.
What are you gonna do about it do you know?
There.
He's been on those hasn't he?
A little bit.
Yeah.
What?
Look nan!
Oh yeah!
What is it?
Look!
Oh I know.
Look at that.
Oh that's great!
Yes!
The motorbike bashed into it and when he bashed into him he crashed 
When you woke up frightened there?
crashed into him
What?
When you woke up .
and and cardboard
Well I didn't wanna go.
and then his saddle come off  and 
Ah?
then the rescue helicopter and that just one 
Daddy'll stay there or wait till I come home.
If you're lucky.
I've got your father there.
I tell you what 
He's gone off
I told you
What's that?
They didn't go out cos I said he could .
Brrr!
Brrr!
Yeah?
That's, yes that's 
Brrr!
Oh yeah!
He can't go out anyway.
Did you two block  yes, an accident.
Ah well!
That's when I'm having my batteries.
Yeah .
Jump  
But on her face she could get a  
Oh!
She is a bit.
and she said er
Can she mum?
Yeah I don't mind.
I li , I can't look at any of them shops she said.
Nan !
What's the 
They  looking at shops they're not  .
Nan!
Ooh I say!
There's grading in all shops like?
Yeah!
Nan!
But apart 
Nan!
from that, what love?
What's that?
What is it?
Let me see.
Oh gosh!
Erm
I'll attend the funeral anyway we Tuesday.
What you got in there?
Nothing.
Anyway,
I'll do that  
Something in the  ,measure.
Orange for you.
A Pear for you.
And half the grapes.
Well why didn't she tell them 
And the rest is 
I am
a bit hot.
never told mum did she?
How do you know that?
Show me.
And some juice!
Yeah , cos it was you with erm  well it must have been some years ago.
Mm!
Hee!
What day  she was here?
Tuesday.
I was coming from the road, I met Lil.
Lil who?
Lil er  next door to me.
Oh!
I said well I don't see you very often.
She said no I'm in work.
And said I wonder what's the matter the next house next to me, she said I wi I  I wondered if Penny come and live there, you know, from where she is now er
Yeah.
I said, I dunno Lil, I I heard it was gonna go up for sale.
Is that Olly's house?
Yeah.
And she said, do you know her nan?
She calls her nan don't she?
Yeah.
Mrs er , Mrs ?
Yeah.
She's nice lady int she?
Yeah.
They think she got cancer in the breast.
Oh!
At her age?
They're sending her down tomorrow.
Erm, I said, Miss  
Ah no!
stayed up here, Mrs, er doctor  I said to her, till the mother comes along.
And the nearest 
She got  will they?
That's right then is it?
That 
Yes they will!
Oh I don't believe it!
How old is she?
About ninety two.
Oh well.
And she said, she said to her mother last week she went up to see her and she said to me  she said, out of the blue it come she said 
tell me, how is Rene  getting on?
Ah!
Ah!
What you done?
And then she said, I said oh she's alright she's still living next to me.
Oh!
And she said  and what about Betty ?
Oh she said, she's still there nan.
I'm a mechanic.
I'm not doing it because of that, I'm doing it because  I prefer to do it, but it isn't that, it's just the fact that  I won't be here tomorrow to go and
No.
water the flowers.
If I'd have known earlier I could have done it.
But I, I didn't .
No I'll er
Well
Bill can give , he can give it me to give her.
I must fill it out.
You jump
What is it cancer, is it cancer research is it?
Well anything I expect.
I expect it will be cancer cos her mother died of that as well.
And her father so I could have done that.
Did you enjoy your telly last night?
What did we watch last night?
Oh I watched a er
I couldn't get over you and  
Debbie said there's nothing on telly tonight see.
It was Dustin Hoffman.
I watched that er Marathon
I turned it off 
Marathon Man?
because I didn't watch that.
Watched the darts 
I've seen it before.
I did.
Oh!
It was good!
I I watched the darts in the afternoon.
Yes!
Weren't it 
Good!
good?
Great, the darts!
I didn't, I didn't see the darts in the afternoon 
I saw it last night.
Brilliant weren't it?
Oh this is wonderful!
And I turned over and I just caught the end of that film.
And McBrady he had two chances to go and 
Mum!
he could have gone.
Yes.
Mum!
Mum 
Yes.
where's the box?
Couldn't finish.
Couldn't , yeah.
At the back.
I I enjoyed the Marathon Man.
The box that that 
I really enjoyed it!
come in?
With the helicopter in?
Yeah.
I seen it before that one.
The Marathon Man.
Yes, I have too.
I have too.
Ooh I love it!
Yes!
And The Boys from Brazil was on in the evening.
I watched that.
I taped that as well.
Oh I didn't see that.
It's a great one that!
Gregory Peck.
Gregory Peck!
Oh!
Because er  I quite enjoyed that film.
James Mason as well weren't it?
Yeah.
I watched it to end of er, darts then golf come on and I turned off then look so I 
Go and get a box for that.
What I done, I taped it back like that.
Mhm.
Gosh!
They'd had a match though didn't it?
Mm.
Oh!
It's, bloody hell!
Longest er 
Yeah!
longest thing though weren't it?
I really enjoyed it!
And I was late back and I was  goes oh my gosh!
I wa really got into, I hadn't seen a  this good!
Oh aye it was good!
Only a bit in that and he told me, and she kept that   .
Oh aye, that's it.
And I just know that 
even  
and  off.
I don't wanna know the answer.
Ah!
And I turned over and I just caught the last bit there.
I've watched them all through the week see.
But Steve Davis and er 
Have you?
I've watched them all through the week.
Steve Davis and Stephen Hendry.
That was  close that.
I think , oh I missed that.
I Just caught the end of it.
I really enjoyed it!
I I just caught the last frame.
You just caught ye , ah.
Oh I do enjoy er  er darts.
But that wasn't darts.
I'm sure I miss it too.
What it is, when you got snooker on and just snooker you're quite  content to watch it, but when you got darts on one side and snooker on the other side  darts is such a faster game
Mm.
Faster than snooker.
Of course it is.
An and er, I mean, I love snooker but when there's a choice of darts and snooker  I always watch the darts because it's faster, it's more counting.
They reckon that er, er er er oh is it, er the whole family go there, children and all, you know!
It used to be fifty thousand innit, the prize?
But it's gone down to twenty eight 
Twenty eight it's gone down to.
twenty eight now innit?
Twenty eight thousand so that's
Mind you, that's better than nothing innit?
I think there's about 
No.
thousand in the  
I was about to say 
I er  eight thousand difference in er  first and second wasn't it?
Bill I was thinking  I wonder is your black tie over my mother's?
I bet it's up there.
And the last time you wore it was with that mac, remember that mac?
The long trench coat?
Do you remember?
Was it
I remember.
I remember.
Ned's , Ned's funeral?
Was it?
That's the last time you wore it.
Oh!
Oh!
Eleven years ago!
Wayne's?
Wayne's I never got.
Pouring with rain wasn't it?
Remember?
Aye.
I haven't had a lend of it since then have I?
You've got one of your own!
The very last one cos that means you had a loan of it from me.
No, you've still got the same one you have.
Don't have one of them do you?
Oh yeah he has.
You got the same one.
No, you got the lend of the one, he had a lend of the one you give to Nicholas.
Well that's our tie Mrs!
Have you looked all up upstairs then have you?
Everywhere.
And then, I always put it on hanger I can tell you.
Bloody awful!
I can't find my bloody, oh!
He 
I 
couldn't have worked out where my black is!
I had to give him a bloody week!
I always put on hanger, every time I put it away.
He don't, but I do.
Bet you had a lend of that didn't you?
No!
No he hasn't had a lend of your tie!
Nobody has!
I know they haven't, so  that's the only thing I can think of is over there on er  that  
Have they  yet?
Mm mm.
That 
Someone ill is there?
Yeah.
I kno , I know I can make it separate like this in a corner.
All in there.
Yeah.
Like that?
Well I went  on the  
Had quite a bit recently .
not coming on it.
I didn't see it.
Was it good?
No!
I didn't see it.
Betty's seen it and she told me about it.
What?
Said she enjoyed watching .
I got a machine  with nothing on it.
Not, I out of the machine I think it is.
Oh!
Which you could fit in an helicopter.
Yeah!
Well I think it must go  there.
But most of it is damn well dry.
Cos  cos I've never had it
Helicopter before have you?
any Lego.
But, you know police station I had?
And there was helicopters in that weren't there?
Yeah.
But I accidentally broke it!
Well where's all the parts that fell apart?
You could bring them down and we co keep that here for now that helicopter
And
paper.
and you know on that Robin Hood one
Mhm.
I could sit.
Have you?
You know, like I done with the house  I put different parts for there
Yeah.
You done that with your
Mm.
Robin Hood Lego?
That's good!
Awful quiet Kirst.
She is quiet today ain't she?
Haven't come round yet 
And 
have you?
And that  there ain't much parts on the police station.
Ain't there?
Well all the, all the helicopters, the big parts I've definitely lost.
I bet they're up there in, in one of your boxes somewhere.
Are you alright na nan?
When I, I erm  was calling out  the first  , right?
I can remember on erm  the other day  I  I accidentally dropped the helicopter on the floor and it, I couldn't find that
The part to it.
th well I could find the part to it.
I could have fixed it, but  but I couldn't find the thing
?
like snake thing.
The , the  it is 
of of, well, well you got one now haven't you, the best one?
If it's the same then he copies it er
Is it that one, the helicopter?
What?
Put the helicopters in your other one?
That's it, in there.
You like school lately?
Yes.
Do you like school?
Oh there you are then.
You, keep the paper, don't lose the paper!
You do, do you?
What's your teachers name?
Perhaps you can make it up on your own.
Th the
Do you know your 
what's in all the parts there?
I don't know.
What's that for?
Ain't the same parts from the two helicopter ain't they?
No.
Plenty in this one.
Anyway,i it 
Don't know.
didn't haven't just er
They changed all the teachers round now because 
When 
er
Have they?
he had  this 
Sean's teacher was taken ill 
this in 
weren't she?
Oh!
I didn't know.
down the bottom there.
So they moved the teachers all round now.
Like that.
Oh!
One, Mrs , Mrs  don't have the 
Go in there.
class one now.
Oh!
There's another teacher looking after  
Oh I think that 
Oh!
one's just 
Alright.
empty.
Alright.
Pick all the, all the bits in your plastic bag.
I don't mean that 
I meant
You got a nice case and you don't bring it up with anything in!
You carry it all in plastic bags!
What?
Your case!
What?
Why don't you bring down your case 
we brought you?
Is it much better?
Yes!
Oh!
You can put all your Lego in that case.
Mm.
Yeah.
You didn't think of that did you?
Saves you carrying it in the bag.
your school bag!
And you carry it in plastic bags!
And you bought a nice little case there.
And you got a nice box.
Case is the word 
Sean.
innit?
Sean, you can put all your Lego in that.
Did you see that then?
No I didn't see that.
I'll show you.
I'll show you.
Like a 
It's like er
sliding.
a see-saw.
Wee!
Woo!
Look at that!
Well that's a way to clean  ma.
Look at that!
Well I don't see .
Alright.
Er  that's how they go  and helicopter 
heli helicopters don't go, wee!
They go, they go, brrr!
Mm!
Then they'll be going  after me.
I, oh I'm not putting it
Well take them back there.
Shall we go 
Sean 
and get some
Sean.
I haven't been, this is, where does that go?
Well you'll leave  
Are you coming?
Because we're now gonna wipe over that now?
This is hot.
Who wears this hat?
Would you like that to go with your ?
I know.
You tells me.
Do You?
You told me.
You told me about six times!
Oh well, I told you another time then!
I'll make it seven!
Only manage Tuesday Bill, you'll  you'll have to have half day will you?
Aye.
Buying two  er three, er four, five  six, seven
Eight.
eight   
How many fools on the  you trading 
Yeah I go , I got one.
for ?
You know what they said?
That's one twenty there.
And if it's one thirty give him that as well.
Alright then?
One twenty .
all round here.
I'll have to cha , change it.
Look gramps!
Ain't that good?
Yes.
Are you doing it properly boy?
Yeah.
Oh well take that look.
A man building 
Mind the other piece there.
You haven't any Kirst have you?
All do you wanna do, look, the fans li like this.
Ah!
watch it.
All in there.
We'll have it on telly in about fifteen minutes.
They're all in there ain't they?
Right.
Ah!
What was that?
Oh I put on a pound too.
Until I put in a .
Oh !
I forgot it was there now look, those eighty twos.
I thought about running it back a while.
What?
Then take it back it's only twenty.
Aye.
Aye.
, is it?
Wasn't checking was she?
Well I'll see if there's any more.
And pay her back so it'll make up the  up to one thirty.
Dad!
I got  Nan!
Oh!
where's the red
Pass me a paper over dad.
Sunday paper there.
Well, the I'll show you  when you come out.
Have a glance through this and all.
Have you seen Alf?
Oh I have!
Yeah.
Have you got it all still?
That one please?
Can I have it?
Ah!
Yeah.
What's that one there?
No!
Dinner first.
Yeah, I'll finish this first.
I asked you to take all that in.
If you're good.
Oh!
I thought 
What are you 
I thought we'd have a Smartie one.
Oh I, I didn't have no Smarties to put on it.
Oh!
And you didn't have any here.
I would have bought some if .
Oh!
Alright then ?
Alright, yeah.
Er
Well I haven't been  so I wonder what it is like?
Not this one 
What's that?
I'm doing this one.
My batteries  for my  front door bell.
Oh yeah!
It's two pound a year for the .
Well I said, said it again!
That was a long time ago!
Bought that, weren't it, the last battery you had?
Well I just put the last one in.
What do you want?
From Woolworths.
So I took the price off it when I give it back to Woolworths, er to er
Linda's.
Linda's  
Da da da da da da!
Oh dear !
Da!
So I wonder how much it's gone up?
It's two pound eighty nine.
You are  
Oh let's give your mother some .
What?
I reckon
Right.
One twenty and put ten pence back innit?
Ooh!
Ooh!
Ooh! ha!
Have you got did you say?
Yeah.
Yeah.
He said one thirty see, she thought it  
Oh!
Oh!
Oh no!
One twenty.
Dad!
It's  they're always mucking about.
Nanny.
Change around.
What?
Look!
Ooh!
You watch this nan.
Three.
Nana, turn it around.
Hold the  and 
No.
bounce it along.
I haven't got thirty.
I found 
You we 
the three!
It's silly!
I was, granddad!
all the threes and your 
And then you give it 
What?
Did you see the score draws on here yesterday?
Thirteen!
I dunno.
I had 
Thirteen score draws.
And I pulled them and it went wrong.
That's mine , that.
I know!
Look nan!
Look!
Mistake anyway.
What?
I'll pull it down.
If I'd had another one  with a couple of
Look!
I'm gonna keep it there and er 
Ooh!
I I, If I'd another one with a couple of 
I I've done na , I know, I've done nanny's when she comes 
I'll leave it.
I'll do it then.
Okay !
Who forgot to clear the table 
I had four 
please?
on my 
Yeah.
own.
Oh mind the  this is hot.
getting to know you.
Some roast potatoes and your .
Right?
Oh good!
I like  yeah!
Oh!
Roast potatoes!
I want more roast, yeah.
Yeah.
Oh!
And she smelled to me and she's 
I want that putting 
there.
Bit o , bit of a  for a walk and he
You dropped it.
wa walked back to the van and she can smell all the cows' 
Who's getting that one ?
Aye.
muck!
Oh!
Ah!
She didn't like it did she?
She didn't like the smell!
She didn't like the smell of it!
Didn't you like the smell of the cows Kirst?
No!
I didn't!
Wah!
Did you like the smell of the cows?
Ah ah, she didn't.
Didn't she?
No.
No.
That's .
I, and
What did you say there?
Did you like Fish Called Wanda?
Yeah, it's okay.
Try answering it.
Is it well worth watching?
Yeah I suppose so.
What's that?
A Fish Called Wanda.
Fish Called Wanda.
Any good Gordon?
Er, I dunno.
Sean your dinner!
It's on the 
Oh!
table darling!
Oh!

I don't know they said that no names are mentioned
No
She takes all them tapes away and Bet's name's not put on there.
No one 's names are on there 
No one 's names are on there.
She's got to write down
What 
She's got to write down   
Mm.
Have I got to fill all this out now?
Bet's got to fill out who she's talking to and what they are to her  
You're her mother Grandmother.
When you're sixty  oh Rose had it 
She got a shock
She got to put down every day look there's a sample for a week
For a week.
Look there's a sample look.
She's got to put the 
She'll have to bring it over her coffee in the morning.
The person's age  male or female.
And what else is it?
Oh what action they are and what what's that?
Oh relation they are stranger or colleague.
Have you been swearing Rose?
No I haven't said a word.
Oh she's all right then?
No.
Colleague.
That's colleague like we're friends.
Friends and neighbours?
Yeah.
Friends and neighbours.
Yeah.
I thought she'd be on that one five minutes I'll see what 
Well that's where what it is.
She's got to put on she's got to put you're a granny or 
If I'd done that if I'd done that  be worse you don't use bad language but he'd be he's he'd be 
He'd do it all the more would he?
He's he's well
He'd do it all the more.
Be serious he can't be serious.
No.
But I didn't let  although there won't be nothing on there so it don't matter do it?
No.
Because we're very quiet when we're on our own
Oh ah!
Oh I bet they're not!
Oh it's all right.
They have fun.
language with the 
I should be I should bloody go very carefully 
This morning Betty
Oh!
coffee
Oh we'll have a bleeding laugh at that.
Don't say nothing before Joe comes in, don't say nothing.
Do you know what you got on there now?
Yeah.
We've got to be silent 
We've got her doing 
I'd be wishing I'll Christmas birthday coming 
How long does that tape last?
five minutes 
Oh have you got to change the tape then or?
I'll just turn it over.
Turn it off then.
Oh yes.
You can hear yourself now but where 
Oh dear
This man charges women three hundred pounds to have sex.
That all?
That all?
Three hundred pounds.
Well he's already  the front.
All of his six feet six foot three of smouldering sexuality he's probably the best looking man you have ever seen with a bo body  he looks every inch the top model he once was .
He ain't no different to my old man is he Bet?
Not any different.
Well none of them are are they?
Hanging a bit looser  
a bit more than all the others, like boobs innit  
for two years.
In that time he had performed group sex with his millionaire businessmen, turned on sex starved women who have never had an orgasm
affection and satisfaction from hundreds of clients 
You can get more  from eating a bar of bleeding chocolate.
Was there  that went on our phone.
Was there?
Yeah we had the toy shop ringing, said you been ringing?
She said yeah all day she said we was ringing.
I said well we're very rarely at home.
Ooh!
I said special round Christmas shopping.
Oh!
Yeah and they have them there see and like after so long they come out and sell them.
Aye sell
I mean they could have rung yesterday  that's the trouble you see they've got so many friends  Good girl you fairly worked that bleeding money.
Yeah.
What twenty quid?
Yeah.
Oh bloody fair aren't you?she'd might never have known whose giving  fair.
Is it getting on your nerves ?
Well it is a bit long, Betty.
Got bloody cock eyes.
Let's see?
Does it look nice?
Yeah but   needs snipping 
Shall I snip it then?
It would get on my nerves.
I couldn't stand that.
Can't see the  would be 
Shall I snip it?
Yeah if you like.
Not too short.
Oh not too short.
What time 
You only have to take a little bit off ain't enough to go under your nose.
might go on a bit Shut me gob.
It's quite warm out this afternoon.
That's better.
That's better.
Excuse me?
I'd better get my 
I know.
It's very nice.
Sorry mate.
Is that better Edna?
Yes that's better.
A lot better.
You want to see her in the morning when she bloody get up.
Oh yes wonderful.
Try and get her bloody  
That nice?
Yes beautiful.
Don't bloody keep on.
I said it once.
she got trouble.
Behave!
She is then Julie isn't she?
No.
You know that.
You have to remind her.
You did didn't you?
just a joke.
Yeah.
You bloody  find out.
Mine cost bloody .
Bernard Manning was on there you know.
Yes he's alive.
Yeah he's alive and his mother was there and she's ninety odd.
Yeah.
Cos she's bloody Jewish ain't she?
Eamon Andrews yeah.
She said you're seeing Eamon Andrews
He's dead isn't he?
He's dead.
They'll all be dead by .
Women are twelve times more likely than men to get AIDS from straight sex by  
Oh God!
An infected woman will die sooner than men because doctors mistake symptoms for less serious illnesses .
Oh!
it claims that women are at risk because men are more likely to spread the virus.
A third of the infected women get AIDS through through sex with men but only about three per cent of infected 
Are we ?
from women .
And they don't have to
It's bloody men isn't it?
Bloody things.
Yeah.
Bloody men.
Yeah.
They said it comes from apes.
Apes?
What AIDS?
That's what Keith said 
And then they stopped it and it got spread about and then blah blah blah and then it came well it spread all through Europe and
Oh well  
No wonder he had three bloody blood tests the other day then.
He said the first  the second was 
Us women are not to blame for this AIDS
Dirty filthy it's the men.
Oh!
I didn't say that.
You can't blame all this on to the men.
What about Elton John?
What do you think about Elton John on the paper there?
He just looks bloody awful.
Awful.
What?
I love you forever he put on the Freddy Mercury tape 
We haven't seen him for years the bloody queer.
That Kenny Everett said he'd go to the funeral.
He said he's dead so we might as well remember him .
I think it's because he got it he didn't want people to see him.
That's all.
got it.
the girls?
Do you like the  look the girls?
It must of
It's really nice of the girls.
I don't owe you nothing now.
No
We're square?
You have to tell me what you want in the morning.
Oh yes!
Because you'll be gone to coffee by the time I get back I suspect.
Where you going up ?
Yeah.
You be gone to coffee by the time I get back.
I want definitely shampoo please.
Yeah.
Head and Shoulders?
Do you want Head and Shoulders Julie or do you want erm
Head and Shoulders.
dandruff
Do you want anything else?
I've got soap, I've got polish.
They've got all different soaps down there or just er
Yeah I know erm
You've got spray haven't you?
I want bread and no I haven't got any 
So do you want me to get you one?
Yes if you can manage yes.
Anything else?
The soccer player got sent off for kissing his opponent on his head.
Stupid.
He was saying to him he said stop bloody play acting get up and he just give him a kiss on the head
Ooh!
and the referee sent him off 
I hate that in men!
You got enough powder?
Yeah.
Cleaning powder?
Did you want any washing powder?
You know I never thought of asking you if you want that.
I just used the last.
I got loads here.
No I just used the last now.
I'm all right for now because I've got no more washing.
Well no 
The next time.
Thank you.
I've just used the last now which has been good.
I wish someone would spread the news around.
Oh I wish I had a washing machine they finished with I could have it.
Anybody got a second hand washing machine?
Spread the news.
Yeah yeah.
Right I'm going.
Okay my love.
See you some time tomorrow.
I might be back in time to see you before coffee if not I'll see you
You won't you won't be back by then?
No.
See you when you come back from Kingsworth.
Not going for drinkies tomorrow?
I don't think so.
No.
I better go I've gotta go to work.
Goodbye!
Goodbye Wens.
What time do you have to go to work?
Half past four.
Tea Edna.
Half past four?
Yeah.
cup of tea   Oh right Ed.
I've already made the reservations.
Could you be here by say ?
I was wondering if I could take it tonight?
Oh er yes.
Are you sure you don't mind?
You mean the people who made that  what's it called?
Syndicate.
Syndicate twenty of them.
Enjoying football for twenty years?
And they never won nothing and they were made redundant last week and one of the chaps he did it on his own this week and won three hundred thousand.
What on his own?
On his own.
And when he marries he says he's going to buy a house a car and he's going on a holiday.
You got the Mirror haven't you?
It's in the Mirror.
Oh I dunno about that.
Well I don't know.
They've all been made redundant.
Yeah.
Oh yeah .
Yeah I got the coat on this morning I said I said hopefully 
Yeah.
coaches up there.
I said 
They had a hundred pounds for Christmas day for Christmas bits.
five hundred.
By the time I get  I get kids something each I never have a lot left  I was only saying that  with one thing and another and  and I said there she is worrying about  her Caroline worrying about she's going to manage.
I said I mean  all right I mean everybody's in the same bus.
. Now if that was me see I'd very often .
She don't get parking allowance?
No.
You can walk.
You can walk.
There's a bus park.
And I said to her  well every time I goes over I either takes children a few groceries.
I don't tell her or she'll take  on the mantleshelf.
But it ain't much but it's I mean I said to our  I don't know how she manages on that
Nor do I.
One small girl and she doesn't go to school.
I must say I honestly do n't.
I don't either.
Because it's a struggle.
Yeah I know our Lorraine has took the phone over.
I know she done that.
But I don't know I said to her I know how to bloody manage.
girls they go shopping like but they always got another carrier didn't they until they got sold and then when er they're on the next road from their house like  take the carrier and it's all for her.
Every never nothing else.
Every week.
Did they?
Yes every week.
Never miss.
And then she goes mad she says I don't want them to and I said look Nance if they didn't want to do it they  and I said don't forget what you've done for them.
Although you want to 
I know I know.
weaken the belly bit now I said I said.
She don't like it.
There's no hope for her.
She needs to get help doesn't she?
Well she ought they could I mean I want her to do that.
Well it's time isn't it?
Oh!
Did you unload your 
No 
Oh that Nanette phoned in and some of the country  said what do you think of this thing he said.
He said I pays my poll tax he says and I am paying out of my savings he said now what the heck will I do when my bloody savings is gone.
That's right.
That's was on there.
Was it on?
And he said like 
Five hundred odd pounds.
Yeah.
And he said what the heck will I do now when my savings is gone?
Well.
Shall I send off for that?
What's that?
Film extras  required in all areas only eight  
it won't raise a bleeding cameras.
Well!
We're not really bloody cameras.
So what do I do?
Stand there near the video shop?
Film extra?
Yeah they advertise 
She's in Casualty
I've got a lot of time.
Yeah you have got a lot of time.
I should just go for half an hour
Will they pay you to be a film extra?
Du n no.
Hello Maggie 
Hello love 
Hello!
Hello my love we've just been talking about you.
How's your Mum?
Oh not so bad.
Oh good.
Oh wonderful.
Oh she does look well.
There's a chair my love.
Oh good.
Seventeen ?
Yeah.
Oh brilliant.
They think she burst one of her ulcers?
No  one of her tubes.
Oh strange!
Yeah I know also she's got a  complaint as well.
together a combination or something or the other.
Oh no!
But they haven't 
Oh that's good
Oh that's lovely.
She's  back today.
Is she?
Oh well.
Mm.
breast
Christmas Eve.
Oh!
Yes.
My mother.
She can't be all that well.
She's on the mend.
Oh good!
She told me off.
That's good!
Oh dear!
said I was getting better she's telling  off.
Oh.
She got her bag out and she said  give me my bag.
She said  I said Mum Christmas is a month away.
Yeah did she get up?
She said there's the money.
You will go and get those Christmas presents for me.
Tomorrow all right?
Now take it.
Yeah but get it.
Oh!
Are you working Tuesday night?
No.
You're not working?
You've got the money if you want to buy Christmas presents this year.
Why?
Because I can go down with you and get them sent off 
Oh can you?
Yes.
Oh all right then
Great.
You can come with me.
Okay lovely smashing very nice
He said  he said I got me .
So I said what's in it for.
He said for the money we spent here you could have had a percentage off.
I said  because you had a different coat on today didn't you?
For every ten pounds you spend you get three bucks.
You got your stuff now haven't you?
Oh yeah.
I told you to hang on.
I don't think there's going to be a lot left there.
There's only 
I'll have no bloody money left by then.
So anyway I then looked at .
I'll get a bloody telling off  me again.
No.
I've got a card for her there.
Oh that's lovely.
She got er she's off her drip now.
Is she allowed to eat anything?
She hasn't said anything about that.
I think she sort of she she she didn't say she said she's not allowed er she's not allowed to have chicken and cucumber.
Isn't she?
Not chicken?
She has to watch what she eats.
Ooh!
I see.
Oh!
Look at that.
Isn't that cute?
Yeah.
Oh that's lovely.
He put  inches of ma mud about that thick.
You'd think, I mean, some people  may not make as much mess as that, you're just in, er like that in a car and the car's going brurgh urgh urgh!
Aye, that's what he was doing.
He'll just 
Yeah.
go out through the mud.
He doesn't really care if he gets it
No.
Because, you wash it for him.
Oh do nay choke yourself now.
That was, hurt your head off the
off the windowsill today, didn't you?
Yes .
And bled your mouth?
Mm.
And now you're trying to choke yourself on a  drink of juice .
Not very kind to yourself are you?
I nearly killed myself on my bike!
Why, what did you do ?
I skidded.
Did you fall off?
Not on the road like, but   on the path.
How did you manage that?
I just did.
You wanna be more careful.
Nah.
Do yourself an injury.
And right out next to a  big bucket and it went, ee, ya, like urgh!
You got covered in, I saw you did.
You had your tie dangling in it.
And you know what else?
Mm mm?
Erm  erm  like I was rubbing it really hard
Mhm.
to try get all that mud off it
Mhm.
and er  this window was muddy was everything, and a wee bit round my eye, and I was goi urgh urgh!
You'll be glad of your shower then today?
Mm mm.
I hate all that muck and
Mhm.
mud from everywhere under the sun!
I know.
How come, how long  I mean me  and Rusty and that  be  cleaned it  didn't we?
I know.
I know that.
I think that's what it is.
I know that.
I mean we  we did it beautiful  and then er, and it was gleaming, then  
Then it was mucky.
And now it's all muddy.
Well that was just last Saturday.
A week.
Well not even a week, six days.
I know.
You had it as black as that by Monday though.
What's in this?
Just orange juice.
Why, what's wrong?
It's not.
It is!
I made it up myself.
What d'ya think could be in it?
Well like a sore head tablet in it.
Oh .
Can't imagine, I did nay, have a sore head tablet.
Mm?
I don't even have a sore head tablet .
Well I don't think it matters what I think.
It must have a taste to it.
Right, I take i I take it, er Russell, I mean, Richard's started  went and picked up a  plate
Mhm.
and I took the sandwich over
Mhm.
and I eat it and I went, urgh!
Yucky!
Had mustard in it?
And, anyway it  and it, cos the them  like a lot of that type of thing.
Mhm.
And Richard says  but you've just picked that up so you'll eat it!
I said  I said,no, I can't eat that !
He says, well you better eat it David.
You just picked it up, you don't need to pick up something and then eat it.
And does he?
Does he like mustard?
Yes!
He loves it!
Does he?
Disgusting isn't it?
Well I don't like it either, but there you 
No!
are.
But people do like it.
It's horrible.
That's the  tape and that for that mirror.
Okay?
Mm mm.
Tape for what mirror?
For the mirror.
Oh!
Right.
Mhm.
And the wee hook to put it up by.
That's it there.
Okay.
You can leave that.
Mm.
Right here.
Can you, can you speak in that telephone?
Mhm.
So when you have dinner cos you just go  hello.
That's right.
It saves you running into the living room.
I know, and if you're in the, the room we're in, we could  run over to your room and go, hello!
That's right.
Cos the other day Dawn  phoned and we never heard.
Mhm.
I know.
Not if we're here.
Hello..
Mhm.
Oh.
I didn't know.
Mum.
Mhm?
See what I watched today?
What?
Fact of Life.
Was it good?
Mhm.
I watched, it was only Candid Camera, I don't think that was that good.
It was 
Was it not?
It is okay.
Jack.
Oh!
Tee tee.
Oh well
Mm mm.
Did you pick up all the papers mummy?
Oh well, there might, there might only be today's.
I know, but I'll
But if there's any more I'll bring them.
I promise  I will.
Yes.
Jacqueline, what are you doing?
Did you brush your hair?
No.
I haven't got a brush.
Besides, I don't wanna brush it.
There's the brush there, I found it.
Don't wanna brush hair, don't wanna brush hair, don't wanna brush it.
Wa are you watching that film Jack?
What 
You 
film is that?
It's on right just now.
I mean, what's it called?
Go on, tell me it.
It's a actually it's 
Urgh!
Urgh!
Don't be a  's on that!
Only that !
Don't think so.
Mm mm.
Don't you!
What you doing?
I wanna write something?
Jackie, stop this!
And don't you  alone!
And you said you'd do rabbit today didn't you?
There's a tear.
I'm gonna get  a bit too!
That was you told.
Well  it didn't upset me.
Mm?
You know how Jacqueline is.
Wha what was that erm  receptionist saying about your school teacher today?
Receptionist saying about my school teacher?
Mhm.
She was 
Oh!
a Miss somebody
Miss .
Was she?
I'm gonna call her that at  school.
Don't you dare!
How?
Not even, that'll be cheeky.
And where does she come from, East Calder?
And how does that lady know her?
I don't know.
I'll go up and ask her the next day.
How did she know?
What was she saying?
What the conversation?
She said, what's, well she sa she's in a right, I think  West Calder cos I think Jackie told her.
Right.
So  I like her  I said.
Mhm.
Then she said  she said to me  erm  so what teacher have you got?
And I told her.
Mhm.
And, then  asked her, and Jackie said  Mrs .
Mhm.
Then she er, and the lady said sh is Mrs  still there is she?
Erm, er 
How does she know Mrs ?
I don't know.
Mhm.
And then  and then I, I sa what's your teacher David?
And I said, Mrs .
And she says, oh!
And she suddenly knew her from somewhere.
Mhm.
And she said, is she still there too?
And she  seemed to call her, she was known as Mrs, Miss .
Da da!
There you are then.
's children.
Eh?
Were you just Mrs  's children?
Tt.
I don't know.
Oh yeah!
You do know.
Erm  Christopher's  primary seven.
A primary seven!
Mhm.
Is he as old as that?
I thought he was wee, Christopher.
No, Christopher  is primary seven.
Alright.
And  they have a  one, they have another one  and  she's, just one year ahead of Jack.
So she's in primary five?
Aha.
But she's
And what's her name?
Erm, Sarah.
I think any anyway, cos I hear her talk about her.
Mhm.
So Christopher's in primary seven?
And is he not into your drama?
No.
And Sarah, either?
Nope?
No, they play with a  they play the brass instrument though.
Do they?
No, no, I don't know about Sarah or not.
But Christopher does?
Aha.
Oh well, that's good.
Erm  and  they stay in after school.
Why?
I don't know.
Mrs  and  the two of them stay
They must do their 
after class.
homework.
Aha.
Where does she live about?
Oh well, I don't know then, but  I know she used to live in Spotter's Wood cos erm  they showed that, you see, she showed her  this thing, a dog license and that  and it said  like, the dog  and it had the dog's history on it.
Mhm.
Like the dog's born er after, before that, and before that, and before that  and it showed you all the owners and everything, right?
And, it said on the thing  someone in the Spotter's Wood, she lived in Spotter's Wood at one point, but  she said that was an old house.
Yeah, so they've moved  somewhere else?
So, I'm gonna ask her cos she, she probably thinks we're
Mm mm.
I know, but I thought you might have known.
Nah.
Right.
Will you come up with me to clean my teeth?
One of my mates might know.
You can get your top.
What?
You can come upstairs and get your erm  top.
My erm
Must be windy outside, that light's on.
Come on then.
Woo!
Woo!
Woo, woo!
So I can get into the bath.
Right.
Mhm.
Got it?
Yeah.
You've got, er, brush your teeth.
How mu how often do you brush your teeth mum?
As often as I can.
So how o often's that usually?
About three or four times.
Three or four times a day?
Mhm.
But, I only usually do it twice.
Well, that's adequate.
Do you use both toothpastes?
Just one.
I u I, I usually use both of them.
Colgate first.
How much do you weigh mum?
Oh, too much.
I weigh six stone exactly now.
Do you?
Aha.
Does that mean you've put on weight?
Not necessarily lost it.
How much?
But it won't be far  much over.
Yeah.
You won't have put on much weight.
Right well 
Aha.
Right Zoe.
This budgie cleaned, eh Jacqueline?
Are you not gonna put your ski pants on?
No.
Why not?
They're gone.
I think they're on the floor Jacqueline.
I think you should go and put them on.
Don't you?
No!
Why not?
Because I don't want to.
I want to go to my bed!
Just now?
Later.
Well when you go to your bed that'll be you for the night, there'll be no getting back up again.
Alright.
Erm
Mm?
Nothing.
So were they not back here after?
Yep.
They were?
Well I've got a pencil.
Pencil.
So did you enjoy it?
Yeah.
What did they do?
I don't know.
And then to the cinema.
You went to the cinema?
Aha.
They never did!
Malcolm and Ross said they did.
He's kidding you.
Said that they went to some, to see the Addams Family.
They did not!
I know, I said that.
But, yeah we did cos we'll all be there going to the cinema, but we couldn't get in.
They did not go to the cinema!
And   and I see  in two weeks.
They did!
Just kidding you on.
What are we having cake for?
Did she give you your fifty pence back?
No, not yet.
But she will give me this.
And she 
Why sh is that what she said?
Aha.
She said that
Here!
Zoe!
Stop biting!
that I keep, tell Jackie that I'll ge I'll give, I'll give you your fifty pence tomorrow.
Oh that's nice of her.
Zoe!
She's trying to bite me.
What are these?
Cakes.
Yeah, but what kind?
They're erm  double shortbread.
What did you buy double shortbread for?
That's what it says.
Mm.
Oh.
Who are they for?
You can have one if you go and do your tables after that.
You can just take that one.
But I don't want to.
Well you're not having one then.
Why do I need to get my ski pants on?
Cos I said it.
Looks like, no, I don't normally .
Well
How's your  seals doing now?
Fine.
And I'll do the butter.
Has anybody fed the rabbit?
Send David out to do it later.
Remember mind.
Mm.
Nice and clean.
Is it locked?
Do you want a drink as well?
What?
Do you want a drink as well?
Yes please.
I can't really sit down cos David's .
True.
I know.
That's the man.
What man?
Man in the conservatory?
I wonder what now?
Mm!
What man?.
Somebody not well?
No.
She's just had a bath and put her nightie on.
That's my
Tired.
that's my survey.
Can swap you places?
Eh?
Cos she's tired, so what can you do?
How you gonna get to the, are we going out the  
Back door.
or the door?
Yeah.
You got a back door?
Ah.
Let's hope it's all finished  
No way.
Yeah.
Ooh!
Ooh!
Ooh!
Ooh!
Ooh!
In that, in  in that  in  you know 
Favourite T V programme  Neighbours.
But look.
Look here and it  and it  come here, over there my favourite one at the minute innit?
Mhm.
Yeah, I'll put Neighbours.
Ha!
Oh well.
This is .
The other ones are horrible.
Doo da doo doo doo .
What's in it?
Mm.
Nothing much.
That.
Ha?
Mummy.
Mummy.
Who are you gonna go up with now then?
If you went up.
No, I don't know.
Good enough.
If you want it.
You've dropped it.
And she's just found out that he   
Read this one look.
Mhm.
Mm.
I'm thinking of going out tonight, what do I do with my face ?
Girl 
Mhm.
chatting between her friend
Mm.
on the bus and they 
Do you know what, I think one of my feet must be longer than the other!
Oh no Madeleine
I'd say smaller if anything .
Customer and a  
in a shoe shop   keep up it .
Visiting a supermarket after work, I was feeling a little jaded 
I was feeling a little ja 
until I came across a small display  above bottles of castor oil,laxa suppositories and a well known laxative was a sign  reduced for clearance !
Mm mm.
Are they jokes?
Mm mm.
Very funny.
Who's that then?
Tt.
Fergie.
Fergie-Wergie.
Maggie Thatcher.
Mhm.
I thought they, they were out by the time this book was published that er  Maggie Thatcher was out, was, I mean  this 
Er, no, by the time that Maggie Thatcher  was  Prime Minister this book was published and not so old  pictures in.
Nope.
Nope.
Just   
I'd have a picture of Neighbours people in it.
Oh well.
The tragic Cathy will never laugh again!
The tragic Cath the tragic Cathy must never laugh again.
There was nothing of the old Cath Cathy  usually enjoying more of a good laugh, she was always happy and cheerful, then she fell victim to a rare diso disorder
Let's read it.
disorder which makes her frightened to so much as giggle, but break 
What did you get for your lunch?
What did I have?
I had   chips
Mhm.
and  I was gonna get pizza, but there wasn't, there wasn't any so I just got chips and sausage.
And then I got a  and a milk  and a packet of crisps.
Very good.
So was it nice?
Mhm.
Did you enjoy it?
Mm.
Look!
Urgh urgh!
Mm mm mm!
That is horrible!
Yuk!
Eh?
I don't like .
Owls.
Are they owls?
Mhm.
Funny looking owls.
That's cos they're babies.
Oh.
What's the dog mixed in for?
That's mothering it.
Why is it mothering it?
Cos it must think it's an owl as well.
Yeah.
Jackie's been in there a while, has she not?
I think she's getting  with all them fillings out of the way.
Well she's certainly getting a few.
Why?
Well she'll have no filling  it's the hygienist.
Mm.
And I'm getting at the hygienist today?
She's getting a .
Oh!
Mm.
I'm gonna make some swaps mum.
I haven't made a swap right.
You know my wrestling, wrestling cards, Gavin's gonna give me  some of his  stickers and I'm gonna swap them for my wrestling cards and some of the stickers.
That's what we always do.
Oh well.
I don't believe it can taste so buttery .
Clover  White.
Da da, da da da da da da da, dee der da da da.
Look at that poster over there.
The acid attack.
What goes on inside our mouths.
Some breakfast, chewing gum, a biscuit, and two sweets.
Mhm.
main meal, a biscuit, and a  drink of Coke  a, a sweet, and a  tea, one bis a chocolate  choc-ice and a   what's that?
It's a   cake  a choc ice or a cake and  a biscuit .
Dee, da da da da da ba doo ba doo ba ba ba .
One filling leads to another.
last ten minutes, and acid produces  acid attacks .
The decay which results lasts a lifetime.
To prevent a child losing his smile.
Had an accident?
Broken your teeth?
Your dentist can sa save your smile .
How can he save your smile?
Well, if you smile with a whole mouthful of rotten teeth you've not got a very nice smile have you?
I mean, d'ya think that's a pretty smile?
No.
No way.
Well there you are then.
Point taken.
You've broken your teeth?
Your dentist can save your  smile  .
But why's it saying that?
Because, he can repair the broken bit  by putting a false bit on.
Ah!
By building it up.
Well that's terrible!
That's disgusting!
Mhm.
Disgusting!
Disgusting!
I would just get the entire out and get a old one, an a, brand new one in.
Oh I don't know.
Cos then it wouldn't be yours would it?
It wouldn't be mine, but it's better than having a  could, why didn't you just get a little false tooth like the girl did?
Well  don't know.
Maybe sh maybe he will.
Look at that!
That's terrible that picture!
That shows you the proper way to fill, clean your teeth.
So brush up your technique.
Help prevent painful disease .
The person who's getting their teeth cleaned is nay very nice teeth is it?
Well what's wrong with them?
They're a wee bit yucky!
No, they're not, they're perfect.
Hiya.
The  is that  point the filaments of your brush towards the gum at the angle of  .
Aha.
Your turn David.
What?
How did you get on?
Well mum, what it wants is that I got this tooth
This one?
Aha.
Mum, can I go and get, get this  out?
Go on then.
There's a toilet over there.
How did you get on?
Fine.
Well what have you  decided?
About what?
About  what you're doing for tomorrow?
I'm doing speech .
Right, well let's hear you then.
Nah, I don't wanna do it.
Oh, go on!
Show me how you're going to do it.
Go on.
No
Oh please!
I've got a sore
Why what did you do?
It's, it's  the skating I got with the boots
Aha.
went into me.
Let's see.
Look, you see th it's the sock
Let me see.
cut
Right, bring it over here to have a look.
There's patch onto this cut.
Oh dear!
Let me see, that's festered.
Let me have a look.
Bring it over here.
Bring your leg 
What?
over to, see that festered you'll .
How?
Cos it's festered.
That was the boots that did that!
Let me see, but it's all red and festering.
Urgh!
Should really give that a good steep in the bath.
With a wee drop of that green Dettol
Tell you what, I was
cos it looks festerey.
cos er, bits of the sock, you know, it all 
I know.
cuts it in and 
Mhm.
I know  cut with your skates.
Why do they dig into you there?
I dunno.
Right, are you gonna sh find me your poem then?
Song.
Song  I mean
Ah.
Right, well it's here.
And you have to do all the actions  or else there's no point.
The penguin?
After the penguin.
The penguin after.
Okay.
Right.
Come on then.
Erm
No?
You're not gonna do it.
er  oh yeah I'll
Come on David!
David, come on.
Come on David !
Come on then, let's see you do it.
Okay.
Right.
Come on David then!
I don't want to.
Tt!
Come on.
Don't be a spoilsport.
Okay.
I'm the other spaceman baby, I got feet.
I got everything I need.
I'm the other spaceman baby, I can fly, I'm a supersonic guy!
I don't feel pleasure, I don't feel pain, if you wanna knock me down, I just get up again.
I'm the other spaceman, I got hairs on my chest  I never get depressed.
I'm the other spaceman, I'm intelligent and keen  know what I mean?
I'm the other spaceman in the world, just second to none  it's a lot fun!
I never let my friends down, I've never made a boob.
I'm a glossy magazine, and I've  in the tube.
I'm the other spaceman baby, here comes the twist  I don't exist !
You've all jazzed it up awfully have you not?
What?
You've jazzed it up.
I liked it when you did with a cute wee face.
Go on do with a cutey face.
Go on.
I don't like it.
These ladies aren't nay wanting you to do it all jazzed up.
Er  it was good!
Well I think it's better like a baby.
Do it the baby way.
No.
Ah, go on.
I don't like doing it the baby way.
Ah, don't do it like that, cos you look as if you're straining to do it.
Better to do it cute.
Mummy, I know what's best.
I know what's best.
You don't know the
Oh well.
in my back.
Ha!
Ha!
Well what d'ya get at school today then?
Mm?
No.
Nothing?
Tt.
Nothing much.
How d'ya mean?
Did you get maths when you back for the dentists?
What?
Did you get the maths?
No?
Nope.
Well that's the man  came and surveyed the site for the conservatory.
There'll be another man coming.
Don't know what he's to do.
Just to come.
Oh.
Mhm.
Erm  why don't you like it like that?
Well, it's alright, but, I preferred th the way you did it  before.
Ah?
I'm the other spaceman 
Yes.
baby 
But not quite as babyish.
Well I can't do that now.
Well that's how you done it before.
I didn't.
You did.
You didn't do it like that.
Ah but, it is a baby sound.
It is not.
It is a baby sound.
I'm the other spaceman baby   But I cannot do that mum.
What was Russell saying?
I dunno.
Nothing?
Got phoned up.
Mm?
He got phoned up by the other  players?
Did he?
Is he going?
He said to me when I, I came in late
Mhm.
he said to me  I need a .
And what did you say?
Mm.
I said, I phoned up me too.
And is he going?
Dunno.
Is he?
How?
Just wondered.
I'm gonna lose the part if you keep on telling me 
I've not gotta tell you to do anything, you do whatever you like.
I'm never gonna, I'm never gonna learn  learn it by concentrating on how I'm gonna do it, I'm just gonna have to sing it the way it is because I'm not gonna  learn to do it am I?
Well that's true.
I would've prefer to get the  mummy.
Well let's hope you do.
She'll have it with her.
She always carries these things with her.
How?
I don't know how, she usually does.
You won't know.
Well you just need to ask her for a long of it anyway.
Mm.
Er
Be early to bed tonight mind.
No.
You're going at
Oh mum, stop using this 
eight o'clock  so as you get a good rest.
Right?
There's no point in going tired.
You're not gonna use that again for me are you?
Mhm.
I can sing it!
It don't matter!
Doesn't matter, you have to get to bed early to get a good sleep.
Oh yeah!
So you're gonna get rid of me early today.
Yippee!
No I just want 
Why mum?
I just think you should have a good sleep.
I'll go to bed the usual time.
Eight o'clock.
I don't wanna  I'm not!
You are!
I said, I'm not!
You can go up and get a bit of reading done in your bed at eight o'clock.
Must be da you must be joking!
I'm not joking, I'm serious!
Tt!
Wish I was going to my bed at eight o'clock.
But mum 
Do that again 
yo will you leave us alone!
You go to bed eight o'clock.
You need the rest.
I couldn't give a blooming damn !
I don't care.
You want yo the rest.
But I'm not !
You are.
Now don't start, you've had Russell round and everything.
Now we won't start.
Shut up!
I'm not going to 
Right.
blooming bed at eight o'clock !
You'll go just now.
You'll go just now if you don't stop.
Be quiet you old bag!
Right!
That's it!
I'm telling you now, come here to  go upstairs now and get into your bed now!
You won't even wait till eight o'clock!
Right, get into your bed now!
Right.
We forgot to put it in last night anyway.
Well it didn't, really didn't matter for last night cos I was  at school.
Okay.
What did you do there?
What was ?
Oh!
I'm tired .
Yeah.
You go  you go over it with a brush.
Well
you got one in your hand.
Wha tt!
Silly me!
Tired.
Hot int it?
It's  ten, it's five past
It's five to 
past.
it's five to eight.
I'm shivering.
Ooh!
It's cold.
Here.
You can say that again.
Mhm.
Hold that like that.
Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Postman Pat  and black and white cat .
Wo ho ha ha oh oh ha ha.
Early in the morning .
Right.
I laugh like a seal!
Okay.
Er,.
Jackie, leave that alone!
I, I just asked 
Peter.
you to find  that was, it was me that did it.
Where's that key, key?
Where you been 
But she's 
Jacqueline?
Get something from the fridge.
Oh er erm
Er er!
Mm mm.
Well, tell dad to put the light off.
Dad, put the light off.
I've, once you're in bed.
Oh right.
Daddy  put the light off.
Right tell us what you've got for your lunch son.
What d'ya get then David?
Chips.
Chips!
And what did you get chips with?
Pizza.
Pizza?
Right.
So nothing, what else?
Ha?
Oh.
That's good.
And erm, tell us  how did you get on at swimming today?
Fine.
Mhm.
What were you doing?
Our watermanship.
Watermanship?
Mhm.
And what did you do, have to do for that?
Swim.
Aha.
Mhm.
do you not?
Yeah.
Swim for four minutes?
Yeah.
Mhm.
Jackie .
Tread water.
What?
Come here.
Tread water?
Mhm.
And
Did you have your wellingtons on?
tread water  and get bricks.
And, dive under and get a brick.
I can do that.
But it's not called that.
That's all you can do though Peter.
Well  well  maybe.
What was Russell, Russell saying today about being ?
Hello!!
What?
What was Russell saying today about being ?
He says, hi Jake!
And I says, hi Jake.
So is he coming it?
Come on and see him.
Mhm.
What's  my baby?
Come on and keep going, this way 
No!
you're stopping, why are you stopping in front of them for?
You always  ooh!
Ah ah!
Right, I've got a wee show for you right.
Right?
Now I want you to say, your name's Looby.
That's it.
That's ri that's his car  
Say hello ma I saw all the boys and girls today.
Do I have to listen to him mum?
Mm?
It's that?
Mhm.
There were three  upstairs.
That's Michael.
That's Michael.
Yeah.
Go get Daddy's coat for him.
It's i it's in the 
Where is it?
In the what?
Out in the car.
Oh sorry.
Alright.
On  Monday, and we've got 
Gotta go.
our football match  against Hearts.
Don't forget Michael.
What was that?
Daddy and Neil were going to the 
Daddy and Neil !
Is that where they were last night?
Yeah.
Was it !
Like
!
match.
Sort of landed with Hearts, Hearts lost three nil or something.
Aye.
They were squalor.
okay?
David.
That's what Gary was saying.
Too mean  sent off.
I will.
Hurry up trouble, eh?
Because one guy said that he'd never ever play.
Firing my shoes in here?
Pardon?
I think you just fire my shoes in here anywhere!
No I don't
Can I have an apple ?
Yes love.
!
Why's everywhere you've cleared my shoes on.
What are you smiling at?
Cos it is funny.
Mhm.
!
See you later pal.
See you later.
Much later.
Okay.
Thank you.
Have a good  night.
Got plenty of hard work dear  I can assure you.
Went out without his coat.
It's in the car.
Oh are  are his keys in the car?
Right.
So the plan for the afternoon is, it's now five to four  so if David goes out and tidies up the hut.
And get changed first  erm  feed the rabbit.
There's new food for that, dad got it today.
Erm  Jackie'll  sweep the path  and then mummy'll make the pizza and chips  right?
Mm.
I'll finish off my woollen knitting  make the pizza and chips, and then that'll be time for Dawn.
Then you can have your  and go out with Dawn.
We're not going out.
Well that'll probably be Dawn now.
Mhm.
Hello.
Hello Russell.
Aha.
Aha .
David!
Russell!
Oh mum!
You've caught me .
Sorry to keep you, and hold on.
What was he wanting?
Eh?
What was he wanting then?
David!
Why is he running away?
Oh I don't know, cos in a bad mood.
How?
I don't know.
You've not got  as well have you?
Well it was okay, in the night, but this one, but the other one was absolutely aching.
I know, cos you were crying.
I know, look crying and it's still sore today.
You must have got a wee  since that.
Mm.
There, that's it, that should help it.
A drop of milk.
Ooh!
Thank you.
Mummy, can I ask you a personal question?
Mhm.
If  what don't you buy with your ?
Come on Jacqueline.
Mm!
I got you a wee ball of your wool for your mittens.
Oh thanks!
But you must up awful square with that.
I know, that, I've already 
worked that one  what mi these one here.
Mine?
Mhm.
Is that my own wool?
Mhm.
All yours.
Hey!
We can I go and knit these here?
Well, no you've got your work to do first.
Oh!
Oh!
Gotta put this wool .
Morning Jackie!
Jackie!
I'm gonna kill yo get these shoes off!
Hello.
Aha .
The three piece suite's coming tomorrow.
Who?
The three piece suite!
The three piece suite?
Aha.
What suite?
The new suite's coming tomorrow.
Tt!
What you tutting at?
David?
David!
I'm speaking to you!
Mummy, well I want, trying to watch this.
What was Russell wanting?
He wanted to see, do you want a game  which  which I've already got it.
Well if you hurry up it won't take you very long  will it?
I don't want to do it.
Well we've all got things that we don't want to do haven't we?
Yes, but I'm   I think I'm gonna go drama class.
Well I won't be paying for another lot of lessons for you at the drama class David because  that's two weeks in a row  you've been saying you've not gonna go.
Aren't you going to do your bit of work  please?
Please?
Will you?
Oh!
Tt!
I might.
Was that nice of me to get you that wool?
Mm mm.
I thought it was too.
But not if it, but people 
Tt!
keep saying, saying .
It happens every da I go and say .
I know.
But you know what he's like.
He's a wee pain isn't he?
Mhm .
I know.
Ah!
Mhm.
Will you help with the  the paint tonight?
What can I do?
Cos the new suite's coming tomorrow.
Er, actually, it's about three weeks too early  cos we haven't got the living room painted.
We'll have to get the paint.
Great!
Mhm.
Can you do this?
I think we should go over just now.
What?
For what?
To the paint shop.
But I'm watching Teenage Hero Turtles.
Well, what time do you want shot at?
I'll tell you what we'll go over at  half past four  will it be finished by then?
Yeah.
Right.
Okay.
Can you do the  for me?

Got well loads of homework tonight.
Got any merit marks today?
Er  one yeah in maths  ooh er
for the class work  look at that homework I got two wrong    and in science  steady  should be  finish.
Try doing that.
I can't.
Are you coming to the fair tomorrow?
Yes 
Ah?
Yeah.
Are you going?
Half past ten to half past twelve.
Is Dad?
Could do love cos I've gotta get er  Karen's er  card.
What from the fair?
Yes I might find something there.
There's some good things but th they don't do cards.
What sort of stalls are there?
No I  got the cakes  Does it look alright Paul?
Could of got the  but they're  there  .
So will we got to that other place  Dad?
Yeah  hopefully  ring up her  ring up er  ticket line  see if it's er  they might be 
a day 
about a day  yeah.
day  what is it O eight nine eight one
O eight nine eight  four hundred three three three.
Alright.
In that one  Paul and I are going into work, alright?
Is that alright?
Yeah he's going to do his homework there.
I have a 
Yeah I know   you out  Who takes you tonight then?
Mark  I can't remember  gotta get 
cleared up before Sunday  I've gotta go at nine o'clock tomorrow morning to get the cake.
Yeah.
Twenty third.
Where's the calendar gone?
Have you got it?
By the phone  oh no it's this  round the erm  on the table  I might  you change you can't go.
Make a  other meeting.
Yeah  I've done the booking.
Well that's alright we can go w whe y you if you're at Mencap  oh you w 
I only said we're getting a lift  and Richard  to write a letter to join the dance.
Why is tha why is David involved in that all of a sudden, it's not through us is it?
I dunno still right  
Dad it's the tenth of 
It's very odd isn't it!
December.
What?
Tenth of December.
Oh right.
Oh!er look I mean it at all unless David gives me a little 
May  other meeting.
That's a good reason for David to give me a lift isn't it?
He won't mind will he?
You'll have all re you'd know where it is, won't you, by then?
Well I know where it is I just don't know how to get there.
Normal squad for tomorrow .
Do you hear Gary Lineker's got  his son's got 
Yeah.
but it it's not life 
Only fourteen 
life endangering though is it 
only fourteen babies under twelve months old get that every year!
God you know you are lucky  wouldn't you?
The irony of it is this is that he  has done a lot, he gave ten thousand 
Yeah.
pounds, is it, not to the leukaemia was it or w was it?
Think it was cancer  childhood cancer or something.
Yeah it's almost though he knew, it weird!
I mean fourteen babies a year that can  
Get Leukaemia?
And as well as his son?
No ah yeah under twelve months old only fourteen babies a year get it  Oh that's dreadful!
How old's his baby then?
Well it just shows you how famous he now means you are.
mail and it says about what a lovely family they are and how  it's gotta 
Shame!
be good that a such a er erm  show what a perfect family  how they sort of go through it all.
It said a lot of people who're watching how they react?
Yeah   by a family who knew them personally not off .
Will he still be playing for Tottenham, Mum?
Will he still be going to Japan.
Ask at your your Christian Union  about Sunday and bring that up, Sunday lunch   we had a right old  ding dong at work today!
What about 
Trev 
it?
Trevor thinks it's  not stopping you going to church  he said.
True.
Dad can I have your quiz  can I have the quiz.
No we're gonna do it tomorrow morning  no I won't.
How many questions are you gonna have in it?
Dad?
What?
How many questions are you gonna have in your quiz?
Dunno I 
Hello is that John?
I n I like the new quick ones 
It's Ruth  here.
than the ones in the
I don't know how to tell you this   I can't I can't  
lot's of  
make the tenth !
Well I I I could but all  
we'll go through go through some papers and start cutting out things 
and I  a chair for the
only thing if I if you do it 
even in the chair for a meeting
you won't enter the quiz  so what do you wanna do?
about erm  
Would you rather me do it on my own 
I think 
And then you can enter with  cos I thought about sticking everybody into pairs 
cos they've asked me.
Mean I won't be able to enter 
the quiz?
Well you'll know the answers won't you!
Oh I want that some  if all the social services just put in with the  thing having 
Please can I a ask the questions?
a series of six meetings  about this  
Now let's have everything tha I want to aim a at doing any oral questions just 
Ah?
like
a lot about it and shan't be, frankly I'm relieved I don't actually know a lot but  when the meeting to discuss what we're supposed to do is on December tenth  yo so I'm a bit torn cos I  in a way that's what I ought to be doing even though the welfare business  in a way that's wh that's what I ought to be doing cos it's  entirely .
Would you like Paul to buy presents  tomorrow?
For me at the fair?
Oh  well he says he's got e he's got enough now hasn't he?
No you want one!
To give to me on Sunday.
Oh I see.
Still put that aside .
Oh Trevor was quite good he di he d he would've got his big pay rise today an didn't  push it too much I don't think  perhaps it's Nick though 
Why's got a big one?
Well he got promoted didn't he  he's stable now that child though hasn't he?
Until they start tre tra blurgh they start treatment straight away don't they, these days.
Oh he's only twelve and ended up as one of the  smallest birds 
But it said I heard that it said chemotherapy well what's that's erm drugs is it, no that's radiation isn't it?
Makes your 
Oh y 
hair fall out   
well you wouldn't give that to a little baby would they?
Well you'd have to.
I thought they washed the blood out  changed all the blood.
Blood type  and that's what that other woman died  girl died of didn't she they  
I was saying to Trevor  it's it's not very nice but it's rather so much better than than than having a cot death isn't it?
If you see what I mean.
Mm.
I can actually imagine the feeling of going to a cot and then finding no  no the child was dead, that's awful.
Done  there was a  our school dinners today  I went into this  give you four pounds back  I get twenty two pounds sixty  Have you got two tens in change of a twenty?
I haven't got  five pounds  
Have you got two tens you want to change for a twenty Paul?
No sorry.
That's been quite good that cos you know  I had a hundred and ten pounds left
Mm.
I only took out the palace because I knew  I'd given I'd written a cheque for forty 
You'd written out a cheque  
and I've only just started, still got two people outstanding so I've got that forty pound and I put that into the building society and use that forty pounds  for months see  so it kind of like saved it for me, I've managed, had to do without it
Yeah.
and er
When have you got to pay all that.
What mu a a th agent says I only have to pay it off a day   
How much is it?
What just write a cheque?
Yeah  and that way .
Well you won't be there on the day.
Well Dave'll be down there today.
Well not you can't pay on the night, can you?
Well I suppose   I'm sure Adrian won't mind if I paid him  the day after or a week after or something.
You're unemployed I wouldn't have thought you could've stood a hundred and fifty, two hundred pounds withdrawal.
No I don't mind  saying it I I'm not gonna ask any more.
What?
Well so that yo about Adrian  after a few weeks it's  you know
Remind me to wash in these cupboards before Sunday.
Yeah.
Have you seen Jan and Joan dress up to their their Victorian day  Jan came like a an upright stripped  erm working, not working class a sort of governess right she had 
Yeah.
frumpy shoes and a .
Where'd she get the clothes from?
Oh she borrowed it, and a bonnet and a  white flowers an all and Joan turned up like a  a twenty five year old Victorian fashion model  you should have seen her!
Black silk skirt  maroon  blouse  her hair done up in a bun  draped with gold jewellery oh  talk about looking the part!
What's wrong with that?
And John hired this thing like a cape 
Who's idea  is it?
Was it?
Oh it's it's quite common, everybody does it if you have a vic if you study Victorians anyone who a Victorian   and they all they did all done out, chairs er table space at the front, they did drill in the playground  they played with tops and hoops in the playground, all the children  the m parents hired costumes from Fairy Godmothers  Fairy Godmother's done a roaring trade especially  
Ah I should think Fairy Godmothers put the ideas into somebody's head, I would have thought.
That's not  
We might  
It's just a very good way of er teaching chi I mean children will I mean that's the kind of experience 
Yeah.
you never forget, do you?
Some of  but you can't do it for something like a Medieval's day or Roman 
No.
day it'd be grim, but Victorian 
Victorian 
people have got a, yeah 
just close enough to sti still remember a lot of the cloths and stuff.
and they had to they had to sit in rows and they had to do as they were told and they weren't allowed 
Ha!
to speak.
Yes.
Apparently some of the children got quite scared of Jan cos Jan played the part so well  ah Joan  for life.
Frightened the life out of them.
Yeah.
Ah back ah back ah back and bill .
So what did John look like perhaps like a little Billy Bunter didn't he?
Ah no he looked very good he had a gown and a mortar board and cane  and bow tie  and pin striped socks, quite good, yep.
And they wore that all day all of them all day?
All day and then he got  all to do   at lunch time  yeah they kept it up all the day, they had separate play time, they had had to eat their lunch in the class room  all they were allowed was a piece of fruit, a bread and water  and they all had to have, you know, they had a bread roll  supplied by the school  an a an apple I think    And Jan made them write out their names and some of them couldn't write their name!
Boy called Daniel couldn't write Daniel cos all last year he'd been allowed to put Danny  an he'd forgotten how to write Daniel!
Search me!
How old's that child?
Ten  and John 
And he can't 
that's what's so dreadful, Joe was language coordinator and they came from her!
Can't write names.
And another boys name was Thomas   and he couldn't write that cos all last year he'd been Tom  an he'd forgotten how to write his surname  they're not dim children  both of them  
Frightening isn't it?
family  she says  quite an eye opener  an they had write lines if they did anything wrong  one boy just   I reckon she could carried him but
No.
You can't be  three times    Where's tonight gone?
All this stuff in out here shall I?
You think you're exhausted after a days work imagine if you've been doing that all day long, shouting 
Look!
and shrieking, no I mean that  
I shout and shriek all day long!
Ooh I'll lose my voice up there today  we've done some really good things though  try and do see more my hall is very full  if he bothered to come to school he'd have seen them!
Still  find those  what's this that's broken from?
But Mummy you could 
Paul  spikes.
Excuse me!
You took them and I want the batteries for them.
Some people go round  
You asked me for them.
in science books
Excuse me !
What does it say?
Fourteen and a half.
Were they marked?
No  look at this here.
Don't like the smell of your Narcissus.
Well go and  won't they.
Don't like the smell.
Somebody look!
Can you see it?
Let's go  .
Oh well neat!
You know I can't see from that distance  I thought John had a snowman badge on today, when I got close it's an owl and it said I am the vet.
He enters into th the to the fray doesn't he with it er
No he's got a grey jumper with an owl  Beaky  on it  all over the front  and a mortar board on the owl.
Did they have to ask him to do that or did he just volunteer.
Oh probably just did it  Do you know what Terry's   do you know what one of my children did today?do you know what  did  apart from the fact he spent all day crying  then he had to do the corrections, I said go back and do your corrections, said right  on your own  I wrote something that went no homework done, so he wrote no homework done,no homework done, no homework done !
Oh no! er!
I can just scream !
Ah  spent all day weeping today  with one thing and another when he weeps 
Why cos you keep telling him off?
he oh!
They'd write a poem for her about my greatest fear, I said I remember last year there was a boy called Ali and he wrote a story about   a poem about this bird and cos he was really scared of that and so I said I don't suppose any of you will write about being scared of me  except perhaps Adine!
Eh.
All Americans go Eh    Nine o'clock tomorrow I'm going over to  Kate  ten thirty that gives me a bit of lee-way  I've got a  at ten I thought it was ten thirty  I ought to get some money out really  You're not going into Woking tomorrow morning  are you doing your quiz?
Do you want some help with it, not really.
Well I was gonna paper out and start cutting out some faces I think  cos I mean a I may just as well I mean I was quite happy to let Paul  help me out but then
He can't take part.
he can't enter the quiz then 
No you should do it 
but he shan't 
all yourself and then
I don't think I'm gonna do as much as I'm just gonna do
No cos you won't  
a big stream of  pictures  right
Yeah.
and them I'm gonna think I'm gonna do the same  South America
Yeah.
but do South American you know get some big ones 
Yes.
in  that might be fun mighten't it?
Yeah I can't do it with you.
And you could already write up in red pen  you sort it out  instead of arguing about trying to do it.
Yeah  you could u u or split up the  to start.
some proverbs, I can't think  can you complete these proverbs  good book up there  for that  I don't know at all, there's something wrong  Ooh this looks really good  got  look at this book, all the streets  it's got like   The House of Commons  and The House of Lords  
Oh yeah!
Take you  brilliant book that   
Alright.
I'm at school  
you can smell it  in the book 
it's got all proverbs and what things mean.
What's all this then.
Well they're proverbs aren't they.
All of them or
Yeah.
single ones?
Well all sorts, let  sleeping dogs lie, the ones that underline them as  I've underlined in biro.
Where did you get that  
Sort of big words for little words  that's a big word, you have to think of an addition, I've had it in   nineteen 
fifty eight it is or nineteen sixty three  geographical facts
Oh yeah.
peoples of other land, look all the people that come from  
Mum, how do I get  
Are you sure it's up-to-date though?
Well you bu you'll know if it isn't.
Dad?
Sorry.
Spell deceased.
Deceased, D E C E A S E D.
Look, masculine, feminine  Kevin  masculine, feminine some of them are really hard  Zar, Marino distinctive name given to some countries, look  the dairy of Northern Europe, Debonair  cut your nails down!
Urgh!
Look famous  famous founders, pioneers  Africa for east or west  I think it'd be there today  the muses  do you know what that says?
Yes.
Any more famous faces  oh you're gonna do up?
No I was wa er  what  what the other guys did  he's gone through a whole load of newspapers cutting peoples faces out
Yeah.
some a little quite obscure
Yes.
and  just stuck it in little boxes, like little boxes and 
Yeah.
that put it underneath  that's all I'm gonna do is, do I I'll measure the framework 
Yeah.
and stick them on photographs an filling in a the names underneath.
Of who you think it is.
Yes.
seen them really.
Ish so that it
score
The la funny enough they had Gasgcoigne  and the picture was so poor it looked  people put things like  oh you know er  Edna Everage  things like that and he ju , he looked like 
a woman and he the really  
You know you're  of pictures now then.
Yeah.
So you're gonna photocopy this or are you just doing one original one?
No I'm gonna photocopy it.
Are they free?
Yeah.
about going 
cos I've got tomorrow as well.
Well you're at football tomorrow.
Yeah not all day.
Virtually   watching Boon  I've got some A two paper I think.
Ah  don't look!
Even if I looked I wouldn't know  gotta be fairly small pictures haven't they?
How do you spell disappearance?
Yeah   aha  go over there 
D I S A double P E A R A N C E 
cos you're far too near whe wha I'm  what I'm doing.
And again.
D I S A double P E A R  A N C E.
Do you want a coffee Ruthy?
Yes please   I'll have a  Maxwell House cappuccino.
have some women in it.
Ooh it's a good one, there's some really obscure ones!
Do some of the things you'd know!
Just because you've got some imbeciles coming!
Who are they?
Well mainly the children .
Dunno them.
Your 
Your cousins.
I'll do a full face on that one  cos that's hard.
What is it?
Knowing Yvonne she'll  hee hee!
Actually it's surprising how many faces you can get  just looking at cheap newspapers you see, incredible!
You think ooh that's well done  quite easy.
Oh did you do      Kettle's boiled  Kettle's boiled  It's only three weeks since the last party this is all for Jim's benefit isn't it .
I thought this has co ro come round quite soon.
Well she goes  June come on, could have had it next Friday I think something must be happening next Friday, she goes to Australia  on the seventh  well maybe that is next Friday  Oh no it's the  isn't it?
So she can't come to the ?
Cos the sixth is next Friday  no.
It's just as well cos she's bound to say something about my quiches!
Ha ha ha!.
.
Gosh how much have you got Paul?
Lots.
You do it all tonight?
No.
Why?
Erm  I can't.
You can't do any tomorrow  can't do any on Sunday  I suggest you do it all tonight.
Can't.
You don't  about this cappuccino is  I don't understand is that here Maxwell cappuccino  is
You can't open the packet.
twice the volume 
Yeah, but twice
that's right much more powder than you use 
We I know you can't open the packets, it's stupid!
Honestly Paul you won't have time to do it tomorrow and Sunday  well you can work 'till nine o'clock tonight.
How much, can I?
You can work 'till nine o'clock tonight.
These Narcissi are really strong.
Sorry?
Cor they're really strong.
Ooh yeah   aren't they.
Mm.
I don't they're going to grow that tall, somehow but  gone up straight as a dye haven't they?
I can't put them down there  to begin with, I think they all  draw up 
Hey 
than lower down.
My hic hyacinths have all come out except  no, they've all come out, one goron l looks like it's  gone and lot congealed  little bad  and another hyacinth has  two have come up and other ones not come up at all.
You haven't had as many as usual have you?
Well  no not perhaps as many as last year.
I'm gonna have to go in this afternoon again .
What did I do with the scissors?
Took them out to make the tea  did you get any biscuits?
No  except for some .
There's some Kit-Kats up there.
Well you're not having any.
I wouldn't mind one.
No  Pauline 
Just one.
would agree.
I'm nine two this morning on the scales, I'll have you know.
Wanna a Kit-Kat Pauly?
Yes please  How do you spell whereabouts?
W H E R E A B O U T S  seems to be a lack of spelling at your, this place  Ah!
Urgh!
Put plenty of royalty in.
Are you looking?
Oh no, why should I!
Trouble is Paul 
I wouldn't cheat.
She's   you Pauly.
I won't cheat!
You'd love to though.
Why?
I gave my top group your algebra homework today  they said  Pau is this Paul's homework, I said yes  that's not fair  I said why isn't it fair?
Well it's too hard, I said how do you know it's too hard?
And they all did it  apart from Chris   who said  urgh she always works us too hard!
Apart from Christopher  most of them managed it Paul  especially Richard  he's really clever  I know who that is, Lady Di.
Shut up Ruthy!
Is this one Lady Di?
Is Mum not entering it then?
Yeah.
Course I am.
Then why are you looking?
I'm not looking Paul  don't tar everybody with the same brush.
What?
Pardon, don't tar everybody with the same brush.
Ooh pardon me!
What's that mean?
That means just cos you're likely to cheat don't assume that everyone else does.
Then why did you say Princess Diana?
I know that's Princess Diana.
Cos I see him cut it out.
So you were looking in the first place!
No you were looking at the Mal Vicinty 
Vicinty 
Spell Vicinty 
I don't  know, about it .
Will I have to pull up any of those caps heads before your Mum comes round?
No.
We were just hanging around talking today and the children done Christmas card competition an wi some really and me and 
Ah!
Moira
!
and and Joanne Joe, say who could judge this, this is for our competition we'll say Heidi  coming, no, is anybody else in it, no  er Sarah'll come in cos she doesn't know, right?
So John came up and we said er we were wondering who could judge th Christmas card competition and he was saying oh I don't know,and then th the P T A chairman came up  erm we said oh perhaps you should judge the Christmas card competition  erm  and she said  well Melissa  is judging it  and we said Pardon!
Then John,, said well didn't you ask her this morning then!
And Joan says oh no I forgot!
Well   and even that didn't jog his memory, that he should have asked her to judge it!
What a dozy !
You know 
Who's judging it then?
Well Mary  going to judge it and, would he let her do it on her own, no  he followed her round, making comments here, making comments there, trying to influence her  fact is, this'll make you laugh, you know the wall displays  you know th erm the books, Where's Wally   Where's Wally  you have this  page, of really tiny little things and you have to find Wally, who's  a person, right?
Yeah.
In minute detail, hidden on the page is something, you remember how Simon had books like that
Yeah.
In where's Lisa, Where's Freddie, anyway it's Where's Wally, for that  he said er  I think I'll get a picture of somebody  and er course he   I said you gonna call it Where's Wally?
He said no I'm wanna call it Where's the Wally!
Milly said  cos we'd been talking about this all day and they, the children had been saying to John  you gonna have a picture of yourself in Where's the Wally thing?
And erm  Milly said ha can't think of a more suitable candidate  and swept off !
If you don't want the car I'll drive to school tomorrow.
What?
I said if you don't want the car I'll drive Paul and myself to school tomorrow.
Just thought Mu Mum's got this newspaper so she might,s know some of them photographs.
Well then it's not fair, use a different newspaper.
Well I haven't got them.
We got our local papers, aren't there any in there?
Doesn't matter.
You get  yes you do you get pictures of pop stars and that in The 
Yeah?
Mail.
Right.
And you can have  my magazines 
That's a hard one.
as well if you want  The Express and The Mail have much the same pictures      Got a  football magazine and a Woman  you can have a football, I can't u look
Still get some wrong it don't matter anyway does it.
Football will be there for children won't it?
Yes that's what I mean, I noticed that the man who did it balanced it rather nicely, he had some  actors  some  politicians, that everyone can contribute  especially in a .
except for me  If you think my general knowledge is abysmal!
Abysmal!
Erm after football's done, then it must be us.
.
Will you tell Paul he's gotta finish his homework tonight, if he can't do any tomorrow  he can't do any on Sunday  Not cutting off their hair?
Yes.
Let's see.
Not allowed to look  Can I read that?
No.
Please?
No.
Why is it illiterate?
Yeah.
Hurry up with the scissors Pauly.
Why the rush?
Got a pen?
Cutting out like mad here.
Have you got a pen?anything that writes Paul?
No, anyway you didn't ask me!
I have.
Then  in there and get it!
How much did you pay for this pen in the market?
It's got a loose nib!
What?
This pen you bought in the market has got a loose nib.
How many you got?
Oh, still waiting for the scissors.
Oh Paul!
What?
What is the matter?
Daddy wants the scissors.
Well I'm sorry!
Not very.
Ha.
Don't throw scissors, ooh it's very dangerous.
Paul!
Well you shouldn't keep taking them!
Tell you what you can have a pair for Christmas instead of a computer.
Oh yes please!
There's a pair there  look  paper's there.
You saw then  you were looking !
I'm not .
You were !
See you can't be trusted.
Ray Wilkins   Is it ?
Oh that is ridiculous!
Sorry   I just .
That's it!
See you can't be trusted, you're a  you get quite upset when you get accused  and Pauly quite rightly accuses you.
I caught her looking Paul.
She's always looking!
She'll always look up  Got a Pritt stick?
Yeah.
Where is it.
Usual place.
Where's the usual place?
Where's the usual place?
Can't   it isn't  pardon?
Where in there 
Is it in there?
It is .
Was she looking?
She was looking at what, Ray Wilkins.
Well how do you know of Ray Wilkins?
Well cos she  called it out.
pay my attention to it, I look harder.
She.
Stop making silly noises then!
She'll be   Ferrero Roche.
I'm really not   Hey how about getting erm   if I can get there early enough  individual Christmas cakes  they were gonna sell them for
Oh yeah.
two pounds each  individual iced Christmas cakes like this.
Cheap.
Yeah.
I want one of them   might be nice for Natty.
Keep it in the box.
boing!
De er der der der der .
You're on still, look!
Yes you're on, no you're off.
Dad?
Eh?
I  today did you do one bulls eye  no not  cut up the thing and say which sport does this person belong to  might get a picture of Rob Andrews  see if they stick rugby or tennis on.
Yes Paul  that'll be a bit unfair for the other twenty nine people around wouldn't it?
What other twenty nine people round?
Ah!
Then you'd know all the answers.
Can't do one for everything!
I think you should have a music one.
One or two I  I know now  I'm writing them down and .
Ha ha  I'm in at  tomorrow morning I'm hoping when I wake up I wanna  nice and  
So what time do I need to wake up?
From the fair?
Not very early, you can sleep in I've gotta go to Waitrose to pick up the stuff.
Sleep into when?
Well ten o'clock.
Ten o'clock!
Oh hang on I'm leaving at ten cos I want to be there a little early  and start them but I hope to get some perks.
Nine okay?
Wake up at nine?
Yeah I'm going to Waitrose at nine.
So which fair is this  at school is it?
Yeah, what do you think I'm talking about!
Oh I don't know I heard it's a craft fair, that's all I heard.
All this time Daddy thinks it's a like 
No I said it's a  lovely craft fair.
It's called Christmas fair but you and Darren have got a stall so  ah
Why did you know what to do there then?
I already bought a children's  thirty five pee each.
Yeah.
Zoe  said  are they for your little   said which little fun are you talking about Zoe?
Said yes they're both for Paul ha ha!
Little   Look at those brilliant grafts Mum  double grafts they're called  Hobart and Darwin.
Why are they called double grafts?
They're not called double they've sort of got a  about rainfall and temperature.
Oh and they show two things  so y you'll have to see if there's any correlation between the two  is there any correlation between rainfall and temperature, and is there?
When rainfall goes up does temperature up and vice versa?
Dunno just gotta describe them.
Well that's what you have to say, is there any correlation between
What does correlation mean?
They all correlate.
Yeah.
It's connection isn't it Kev?
Mm.
Yeah  and you've gotta see
That's level six, you should be doing that.
What's level six?
Well correlation I've just done that with all my children, you should be level six, no good doing it, you should be it  Want you to do two pieces of work for Monday and  all the same level, so there's an extra  two you've got to do.
And what homework do you, what do they get  what homework do they get over Christmas?
They get  poem, my greatest fear  and they get a project homework from Lynn.
So how many homeworks do they get, two?
Yeah  how many have you got?
Five.
Rubbish!
Clap trap!
That word would go down well.
You know that lady that did the thing so Lary  what did you w and you say the children w meant  knew what it meant, what did they say it meant?
Well   sort of meant all knowing.
No  Lary means something like  it's sort of like  someone  mm
Ah you know that word as well.
Yeah 
Well how do you spell it?
L a r y.
L a r y?
Yes  it it's Lary, it's sort of like  someone insults you like they er  you've only got four toes  and so I'll say  that's well Lary!
And then y but I take that then 
What like an insult?
Lary, yeah  like  hey you when and got too Lary!
Sounds like Aunty Sheila's mardy 
Got it?
she says mardy don't she?
Lary everyone's going oh that's Lary  but 
Well I've never heard of it and they I said  
But and you called James  a moron or something like that 
Yeah but
he goes
moron
but he goes 
we know what moron means.
but he goes oh that's Lary!
You shouldn't take that word, well 
What you unkind?
No
I do 
No Lary.
Rude?
Yeah.
No I'm sure he didn't mean rude.
Not unkind, it's like  you shouldn't take that from him that's  bad  get him out   ding da ding ding ding ding ding  boo boo diddle erm, doo doo doo doo diddle erm  dum dum dum diddle erm   ding ding diddle er er  diddle er  yeah yeah  doo diddle erm  doo doo dee dee  dee   boom boom diddle erm boom  .
Hurry up!
I'm moving, I'm scrooving, I'm dooving  this is hard, got to take all these notes and just put them into all  sort of  a summary.
Spell summary.
S u m m a r y  today is Saturday.
Is there any connection  why have you coloured it in red biro!
And  oh   I don't really know.
That doesn't show anything!
Yet the January, February, March the temperature is  high  which is temperature  I can't tell by looking at that, which one's temperature and which one's rainfall.
That's temperature and that's rainfall.
Yeah but which line refers to which, how can I tell?
You need to put the dotted line there  and square there 
No you can look like that.
How?
Rain, ten millimetres of rain equals one millimetre  ten of rain equals one millimetre and this one  one degrees  celsius  equals
Well I'm sorry  I don't think that is very clever  for you!
there and 
one degrees, how can temperature
What?
one degree celsius equals one millimetre
Yes.
So it's twenty five degrees celsius in January?
No.
Well I thought it wouldn't be a bad idea to put some sort of  clue on it.
We've got twelve people coming, right?
Er yep  what's that gotta do with anything?
Well cos I'm gonna have  pairs  I think here 
And one you!
Oh  singles then?
It's more 
No 
fun in pairs isn't it cos the people can have the scraggle and talk to each other.
You'll have to have pairs and put one three.
Chips.
Well that's not fair then.
Put Michael with
Oh yeah
if you put Michael with two other people, it's completely fair.
But then your implying something aren't you.
Why don't you say if you're a child  you can go in a group of three, if your adults you'll have to be in a group of two, so the children can attach themselves to any group.
Right.
Right.
You've got eleven people you need four groups  you don't have four groups it's not worth doing is it?
Gotta share it all out perfect even  why don't you say, stick it on the wall, give them each a piece of paper and they've gotta do it  I've got an idea, you can compile a quiz
Fine I'm  
and then you could have a treasure hunt for the children
you know
Couldn't I.
Most amusing 
Are you gonna sort of read out the question and they each gonna scribble down their answer.
Nope.
What you gonna do?
No, just leave 
Have a chart.
your father!
What?
Have a chart.
Heart.
You'll let people  overlook each other then  sort of overlooking 
Cheating you mean!
Yes I mean that's the first thing you have to say, you have to think  when you look at   you keep, anybody who does the whispering 
Is Mum.
is giving their answers away  in fact, what we did, the team of four, is they all had a little pad of paper, if you spotted something you knew, you went  and you wrote it down  because people we there.
You did it in silence.
Yeah  tried to do  and they obviously can't.
Why aren't you gonna  for faces.
Well this th this is the the faces and I thought I'd do the maps and the rest were questions I don't know whether y should do some questions.
Well you'll have to think of some.
Yeah  I'll see how I go any 
You got the maps of South America?
Yeah.
I've got one at work  a blank, you should of asked me for it.
What all split up, yeah?
Yeah.
Oh.
I could get it tomorrow morning  in my 
Yeah could you?
Blanked out without the er the countries names 
Yes 
in it?
Oh yeah.
I've got all the countries blanks  might not oh I might not even have the countries on but if you had blanks you could put countries in, that'll be easier than  
No that'll be harder.
No  what the boundaries?
Yes  because if you've got the scale  you just drop, trace it all off  where as you got the you've the you gotta sort out work out  i th the scale of everything, haven't you?
No you just draw the lines.
Yeah but how do you ge 
What scale?
How you going to know exactly where the boundaries go or i in between some land-lock countries  that you got it in the right position 
How many land-lock countries are there in South America?
Well enough anyway, I mean I thought you were giving me something easier to do not  
Well I think  why would you do it tonight if I didn't have it?
Yes 
Say I didn't have it tomorrow you'd 
well 
do it tonight?
probably ni or tomorrow I was gonna do that.
I seem to think you should take the easy bit, cos that's gonna be miles too hard!
No I like to balance it, I ju there's some balance there, there's some easy ones and some hard ones.
I'll tell you what's best for Michael.
I don't feel that's very good  because you're just gonna get children totally pull out of it unless they're 
No.
really really good.
Children are allowed to go  
You find that if if if i in a team, if there's teams  i you find that in a singles, but if there's a team e if everybody feels the everybody feels they can contribute something to it  when you've got 
You can have those  
allowed to be the idea of that, you don't wanna make it 
Yeah I know 
too easy  
No there are no husbands allowed to be with any wife  and children can attach themselves to which group they want.
So work out the groups, you work out the groups.
Well there's going to be  apart from your father there's going to be seven adults.
Listen, a man with a woman  but not wi not  by marriage  cos say like Andy with Nanna 
Well I could go with two children, I expect.
Well write down the names let's have a go at, let's work out, let's work out the teams 
Cos I'm the cleverest person, I can go with two teenies!
lo , write down the names.
Modest!
No and I could be the only adult with two children cos I'm so clever.
Write down the names and th work out some balanced teams then for me please.
Ah, give me a pen!
I'll write it out with her.
Can I, thank you.
Then people don't argue then 
do they, if they say look that's the team then th people are h happy.
There's Nanna and Margarite, if I find him another 
Yes, they don't know  cos they're both Daily Mail readers and I'm cutting the majority of these out.
And   and maybe an adult  
Don't put 
No four groups, is all you'll get out of twelve people.
don't put Michelle and Andy together.
I'm not?
Don't put 
Papa a Nanna and
er Adrian
And Kevin with Andrew  yeah  no not Kev and Andrew because
erm Mooty 
Yeah.
Mooty and Michelle 
Hang on  i 
What other adult is there?
There's only me 
Is Karen quite good?
One, two
Yes Karen is 
three, four 
will be as sharp as iron 
Can I be with Papa then?
It'll have to be me with Papa.
Okay  .
That's the eight adults.
Who're you putting Karen with?
Be careful cos Karen is the 
Andy.
Andy.
No that's far tha well 
think again isn't that  
Nanna and 
Michelle and Mooty, why you think that's too clever?
Andy an Andy and Karen will  streak through.
What better than Michelle and Mooty?
I bet you.
She  generations though.
I bet I'll give you a bet  Karen will win it.
What about Papa?
Who you gonna put Karen 
Because 
with?
she thinks , she reads papers.
Well I put Karen with Papa and me with Andy then.
It's just her her what?
Put me with Andy then, and Karen with Papa.
No that'll be too easy cos you and Andy'll streak through that.
Mm.
It should be 
No it'll have to be Karen and Andy cos 
Mooty and Andy!
Yeah?
Cos the others are different generations, they're at a disadvantage cos they're the same generation  Andy 
Yeah.
and Karen.
Yeah so 
Karen doesn't read The Mail  and nor does Andrew.
You'd be surprised, Karen's well read, newspaper wise she's not 
Oh of course 
or something.
Right you got that'll do, I think  unless your father wants to  
No.
Now three of those groups can have a child 
should be with Nanna and Adrian.
No.
Why not?
You mean you with Nanna and Adrian  yeah I think you should 
Okay.
be with them  put Michael with Andrew and Karen  tha 
Which one are you gonna have?
Who can have Lisa, me and Papa or Michael an Mi Michelle and Mooty?
See I'm  in so me th th they'll all be able to contribute.
Michelle and Mooty.
That's right 
Cross Michael out then?
Where's does Lisa go?
Cross Michael out.
Why?
Just cross him out.
Why?
You've gotta think of the generations  they would be more likely to lead a pop star  or sort of person that would know all those  those sort of things, put Michael with Michelle and Mooty    and Lisa with Papa and Mum 
Be careful who you put Mooty with  cos Mooty 
I've put her with Michelle!
Oh that's alright, that's fine, yes.
and  Lisa with Papa and  you.
So that left Andrew and Karen on their own?
Yes  that's fair 
Do you think that's fair?
Sorry?
Andrew and Karen, you think 
Yeah.
they're so clever that they're 
Yeah.
going to beat anybody else?
They will win.
Yeah, so listen to this  Nanna, Adrian and me 
Go to Dad.
okay I'll read it out, Nanna, Adrian and me, Dad?
make up on.
Okay?
Sorry?
Nanna, Adrian and me  Papa, Mum and Lisa  Andrew and Karen 
He's not listening  he's not listening 
I am yes 
Michelle , Mooty and Michael.
That's alright.
Is it after lunch, I presume?
Yes.
I knew Michelle and Mooty would need somebody else cos  you know Michelle  Mooty would have a .
Paul you gonna throw me another pencil I seem to have lost
Paul don't belittle the 
lost one.
older generation.
No but s 
Throw me a pencil please?
I'm just saying  would she know about Michael Jackson and all that sort of stuff.
Is Daddy putting Michael Jackson in?
I don't know, he's bound to put  in, I hope.
I'm not giving any clues away  I'm balancing as best I can.
What do you want?
Pencil, I know you couldn't concentrate on three things!
comet  have you used the match box?
Yes  that brown crayon you've got in your hand'll do.
Why, why will it do?
Well  you seem a bit desperate.
What you gonna do with it?
Right so you're going to go work 
Well 
after I've gone to  have you?
Yeah.
You can go to work when the tape stops  Well he's not going to watch you sticking all those on at work  what's he gonna be doing.
He's doing his homework.
I can draw some sides   just like I can put  I could make a  just draw neatly in the teams bi on a big piece of paper  that'll make it look really good,.
And when were you going to do the map of  you can't do that map tomorrow can you?
Yeah.
Well when will you do that at work then?
Before or after football?
I'll slot it in sometime tomorrow.
Right, fine  wish you could slot into washing up mood.
Ooh there's a hard one.
There.
Ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh that'll sort out the  I'd like someone to say, I'd like to have  one or two that nobody gets.
Is there a prize?
What do you mean?
Sorry?
Is there a prize?
I suppose there should be.
Suppose there should be yeah.
What an overall prize or individual prizes?
Er
Little individuals is it?
Well they'll have to be equal prizes wouldn't they?
I've got it!
Whichever team wins  th the cha children can give out the Christmas presents.
What Christmas presents?
Those presents up there.
Big deal!
Can't fool you.
Well I've never   prize 
It's only  it's only fun, I mean what are you gonna give them?
The team that wins gets their presents.
He said I used to laugh at my Dad when he used to do these quizzes but when
That's why you'll start getting more and more like your Dad.
Yep.
Wouldn't argue with that one iota.
What does iota mean?
Scrap.
One what?
Scrap.
Scrap?
Scer er ap .
Why?
One little bit, I wouldn't argue with her.
You could do a treasure hunt, Dad  Dad
Mm?
you could do a treasure hunt.
No it's too hard.
It's not.
No this is do this is just a gentle little thing it'll just get people laughing and things cos
You've gotta sort out how you got organised ?
Who?
?
No he no go upstairs th in pairs if they wanna do it, quietly.
upstairs and find .
Getting silly!
You should have  answers up there  and each person has their gro group reading  one in the  breakfast room
But we got go grammatical each person has to speak.
Why don't they go out  Well I can have somewhere else  but they can all have their quiet place to talk.
Is it tonight Casualty on?
Eh?
Fridays?
Done today's paper?
Don't know.
Can I have it then.
Then cut it up, I don't know  you cannot loo go through you cannot go through those!
I only want the television page 
I don't care 
for Friday Kevin 
No don't Mum 
Sorry.
Oh for goodness sake how can I possibly see anything aye aye!
Why don't you look 
Find it over there what about over look!
Look I've found it.
Oh give it !
I thought you wanted a pop star?
Will you do any mathematical sums?
No
Mum can do them.
I might win.
Mum can do mathematical sums.
I've got a lovely mental test for the children  it's a bit hard.
Is it?
Better than 
Two one one   I am so tired, I've got to get up early tomorrow  , right I want that recorded twenty one thirty, shall I  her out?
Yes you better had  
as well.
Oh where are your keys?
Paul can you turn this thing to nought.
Yes.
Or on this one  or you have to have the other one?
The other one  should be a button  I've pressed the button just lift this up  button she set, there you go.
Thank you  so if I press play and record now  twenty one thirty, twenty two thirty it's half past ten   thirty five to half past ten that's alright  so  if I press play and record now  it should come on at  wha one and a half and ten  one forty so it should come on when it says one forty.
Shoe shoes shoe 
I took them upstairs.
Where are you going?
To see Mrs .
I didn't want that lady thinking you were untidy.
That what lady?
When are we leaving?
Dad?
Mm?
When we leaving?
In a minute  oh this is it  oh no  they're not re releasing in that   Cor look at this  he's not doing the one, he's doing all his Christmas ones together .
Who?
Cliff  that's why they did it, cos they put them all together.
Mm?
Clever I think.
Right I got my key then.
Alright, I think I got enough here.
Alright?
Right, yeah.
Well will you be very late?
No.
See you then.
Hello my name's Geoffrey Chaucer  and I'm going now, bye.
Are Paul  are erm Manchester United playing in their blue strip today, will they do you think?
Yeah.
That's their unlucky strip.
Let's hope   
It's a disgusting strip.
That awful white and blue 
Yeah.
strip.
Red as well.
Yeah I suppose they can't have red can they?
Not with a red 
No.
So, we're so much like red aren't we?
Red and blue.
team's  us they can't have red or blue either .
What did they have, what colour did they have before the blue?
Oh it was blue last year wasn't it?
It was a bluey weirdy one before 
Oh yeah.
last year.
Yeah.
Before that they have white don't they?
All white.
Oh yeah.
They played the cup final in white didn't they?
Yeah.
Right.
I looked up the teletext and it said full squad for Manchester United.
Even Paul Parker's  fit.
So they've got the full 
Not the palace full squad?
Man United?
No Man United, yes.
So they can't have any, if we beat them they can't have any excuses.
Yeah.
Have they got Lee Sharp?
Well I don't know.
I don't think 
don't think that's, that means that I don't think.
I hope not.
That's all we need.
I've got to try and make sure the petrol lasts till the Texaco garage  
When's that?
Where is the Texaco garage?
That one by Carshalton ponds I don't think there's any one nearer is there?
No.
Oh yeah that one.
We don't usually go to that one do we?
Been to it before but not for a long time .
Is this the A three or the M twenty five?
A three.
Lovely new road.
Be kind of funny to see the mascots going on knowing what they've done  .
Oh yeah.
Except they'll have had a  four course meal to eat.
Will they?
Well  maybe.
Does that mean they would have if they have it at the ?
On Saturday well I mean it's the option to have it Saturday.
I don't know, at at that price I don't know.
I don't think very many do.
Really don't.
Fast.
Did you see that erm  did you hear that in the Zenith Data
Yes.
er  game?
When the Q P R man  interviewed the ref.
The the  Sky television man interviewed the ,
Oh yeah.
he said what's the coin?
And he says nineteen sixty two when I started reffing  and he said the oth they're not  I'm not giving them this one but these two are for the other mascot scene.
You lost out there didn't you really ?
They were badges.
They gave themselves badges .
Oh  badges.
Oh.
What did you ref say?
No chance  sorry you can't have it?
Dunno.
Geoff Thomas sent for  
He asked on your behalf didn't he?
Yeah.
Well you can't ask any more of Geoff Thomas than that I suppose.
I wonder why that little bit was in the paper about Geoff Thomas being  absolutely priceless?
Was it cos someone's 
What bit?
someone's after him again?
What bit?
There was a little article in the Sun I told you about.
Alan Smith saying  Geoff Thomas is absolutely priceless.
Er  all he's got to do is score more goals.
That's what I couldn't understand.
What a nerve!
.I think he meant for England.
All he had to do to seal his England career was pop in a two, a few goals like he does at Palace
Yeah.
and er  could be on the way to a regular spot.
He is in a regular spot at the moment.
Well I don't know.
Hope, hope that's true.
Yeah but well you look that  that jaguar  four litres!
. Four litre car!
Yeah but what are you gonna do with four litres?
I dunno.
Well quite.
It does about  eighteen miles to the gallon.
How many miles do we do to the gallon?
I hope we do something like thirty six.
Thirty six!
Don't think it's much more than that.
How can his, well  if ours is one point six  there's three times
No it doesn't work that way.
It doesn't work like that?
No.
So what  how long will it take him to get eighty miles filling up every ?
Well I mean do they have huge tanks?
I mean they take  if you, if you filled up you could put I think it's about twenty six gallons in that car.
And how many can we put in?
Nine?
Eleven?
Cor.
Eleven.
It was eight, nine.
I think this might take eleven.
So how much do they spend if they filled it ?
Don't forget if you've got all that weight, you've got that you're gonna lose even more petrol.
So if you filled that up, how much would that cost them?
Well, twenty six  I think it's something like  isn't it something like two pounds a gallon now?
You don't, they do it all by litres now so it's really hard 
About fifty P?
About fifty, fifty pounds?
Fifty pounds to fill up!
Yeah.
Oh yeah fifty, sixty pounds.
And how long would it last them?
About the same time as us?
Yeah.
I suppose you have to be able to afford all that if you can afford the car in the first place.
Right.
Yeah if you have to moan about that you shouldn't be driving it in the first place.
Motto, what?
Motto of the story is er  er don't, don't buy expensive cars if you're gonna want to run the thing though.
You've spent all your money on this car.
All of a sudden you realize  
Well like that new advert for the Rover he says don't, I keep thinking my back  my back tailgate's  flapping or  I keep hearing, you keep hearing creaking don't you?
A creak here and you think what's that, what's this, what's that?
So that new Rover has been built so everything fits perfectly, right?
So nothing rattles.
What do you mean nothing?
No toleran er the tolerance is you know minimal.
Whereas the tolerance here'd be  I dunno eighth of an inch here eighth of an inch there he says  the advert says as soon as you have tolerances like that then thing work loose and start rattling and creaking and
E E.
you can hear it go E E er E.
Yeah.
you imagine cruising in a car, lovely car like that  and it makes no noise.
Just cruising away and it just like glides, and you glide you know  like, like Papa's Citroen type  that kind of suspension.
Yeah.
Is this a new Rover?
Crikey what was that?
A Rover.
Was it that Rover?
Yeah.
Was this a new, is this a new Rover ?
Carving everybody up.
Yes.
That was er  that, yeah well it's not out yet is it?
Looks like a  looks like the front of a B M W to me.
I think that's what they're trying to emulate.
Oh that one.
How much is it?
Supposed to be.
Don't know how much it costs.
Should think it starts at about sixteen, seventeen thousand  .
Yeah .
A three's heavy isn't it?
Look.
Yeah.
So you got any ideas what you're gonna get, what you should get mum for ?
Er.
We could just  fall back on a bit of sweets and chocolate or something in the end but I'd like to get some
What  what sort of thing are you gonna get her?
there's some funny little weird shops down Thornton Heath aren't there?
What sort of thing are we talking about?
Well I dunno.
Something  I'm not  I've no idea until I see it.
Well something like soap or what?
Could get her some, some toiletries or something.
I dunno.
I was hoping for something even more er
a Moss chemist might be able to get her some Bromley don't they?
There is a Moss chemist on the way.
Oh yes she did tell me that she'd like some of that.
Yes there is one isn't there?
By  shops.
Right we, we'll  we'll treat that as a fail safe then.
If we can't see anything more unusual suppose we could always fall back on  the bubble baths or the  anyway I think that's a bit more than  but there you go.
They're off to football aren't they?
Look at that!
I've never seen a Metro  so full.
how many people are there in it?
Five.
Five full adults.
Look  really down on his  haunches.
Oh yeah!
Low!
It's really low innit?
Mm.
See that's the B M W I think the Rover's gonna look like.
That one, that's what they're copying.
Yeah.
It's really like it.
It's only the front though.
Oh I wanted to let him go.
What?
Oh look!
Someone's been right through that wall there, look.
Cor.
Ooh!
You wanted to let who go?
I wanted to let that car go, I was
Why?
Well I like to be polite.
I don't like the people like this who  who straddle across you and just stop you.
Mm.
Specially when they're Indians.
Come on, let him go for goodness sake.
what's that plonker holding that Sony thing for!
Yeah I I held up a traffic jam of about sixty cars doing that .
There's .
Still there.
Do you  Judy then?
Somebody call Judy.
Judy, yeah .
Yes it's Judy.
Ah!
What did the  say up there?
I don't know.
Wah.
I think we're gonna have to invite erm  Adrian again.
One of these football evening matches we could couldn't we?
Yeah.
I'm gonna see how many people I can let go  across  here, between here and Palace.
Right four 
Do you wanna count?
oh no I did four at that one and I just did one there.
That's five all together now.
Five.
Five  five times I was polite.
No but they, they just ran out in front of you, those other four.
No, well  no I let them go though.
Well  the third one did.
So we're counting from five?
Five yeah.
Only ones I don't like are the ones in like  oh that doesn't matter cos he's allowed to do that cos it's a keep clear zone there.
I wonder if they're going to our match here, do you think?
They look like  a football crowd don't they?
Not really.
Do they?
Well I dunno  
It's a woman a woman driving it.
Is it?
Yes.
Oh well.
Perhaps not then.
four men 
So if we get there early enough do you feel like a Wimpy?
A Wimpy?
Sony, Sony Sony  Sony me Sony  
I don't know what  That's a tiny little shop for a Sony isn't it?
Yeah.
Oh it's not a Sony shop though look.
It's  audio  Sony advert.
Oh.
I bet they've got one of these tape recorders in it though.
Mm.
Sony me Sony Sony me Sony   .
A Wimpy?
Cheapskates.
They don't put the lights on in this Christmas  thing till  it's slightly dusk.
I know.
Well we can't hardly see them now.
Well you  well you would be able to though wouldn't you?
Would you?
You wouldn't want to put them on, they're not so spectacular are they?
Cuts  cuts down on the electricity bill.
Plus two sports.
It's funny, every time we've sat at our seats  that bloke has come to ask the chap next to me
Yeah.
what he thinks of the match hasn't he?
. There hasn't been one game we've  been there that he hasn't  or both of them haven't .
Suppose they're both season ticket holders.
James was well gutted on  Friday .
James right  like Mr  right he didn't know right and we have this sort of erm  water fountain and he was running towards it and he, and he  filled up his mouth with it and he was spitting it everywhere and we were all sort of getting out the way  and Mr  told him  if you don't want to drink it then leave it alone  and he sort of turned and walked away.
Mr  who's quite strict isn't he?
Yeah.
He looks
He  badminton.
James 
Oh does he?
James was really unlucky.
He sort of just come, just go up there 
James is always into trouble isn't he?
Yeah.
That's rather disgusting though
I know.
putting water in and spitting it out.
He should have remembered because  always walks down there on Fridays to do his badminton class.
Did he give him a de de detention or not?
No, he told him to get away.
Yeah well always mucks around on Fridays don't they?
Sort of like ah no more school for about two days.
More relaxed mood.
James is very excitable 
Yeah.
Now when I, when we went to that open day that  Mr  is very stern isn't he?
Mm yeah.
Didn't think it helped he'd, just before we got there  his biro had exploded in his pocket .
All the ink was all over his shirt, it was coming out all over the place.
I don't think he was in the best of moods when he, we got to him.
But he seemed very very stern.
He doesn't  smile very much.
No.
Terse.
We have his wife er Mrs  for English.
And you say they're nothing to do with Mark
No.
?
It's unbelievable isn't it?
Isn't it Yeah.
Unless it's Smith in Cypriot or something .
Don't know.
Don't think she's Cypriot.
None of them sound Cypriot but
So what's his wife teach then?
English.
We have him for history and her for English.
And her for English?
Yo!
Yeah.
Mm.
She's the one we did our Geoffrey Chaucer project, project with.
I always feel guilty passing Mike's house.
We really should sort of take him to football, don't you?
But
they are.
I don't think he's I don't think he's interested as you is he really?
No, nowhere near.
But  he's probably not there.
He's probably at a party or something like that, or
Yeah.
I don't think he's got any lack of things to do, has he?
Really?
No.
He never seems to have any homework to do though.
all those Christmas trees in that lorry, look.
Oh yeah.
Where are they going to?
I don't know, they're loa , looks like they're loading them in, they're putting them in the gar the school.
Has that school closed now?
I think perhaps it has.
I went there for a week.
Yeah, I think it's closed.
Didn't I?
I was in the fourth year, the top year .
Were they nice to you there, the teachers?
I mean there weren't very many teachers anyway were there?
How many were there?
Dunno.
Three or four.
Four?
Three or four?
Don't know.
Can't remember.
on the computer most of the time.
And I took part in some of their tests.
I got better results than some of the actual  fifteen year olds.
That'll be quite good about your maths test won't it?
Cos you'll be, you're doing it again with, like that aren't you?
Your maths 
you're taking class nine
Yeah.
you could get better than them.
Yeah.
Virtually every year the eighth, eighth year always does get better than the ninth year.
Look  that house is really old.
Look it's got the plaque on it.
What's a plaque mean?
Is that a fire station thing?
Well yeah it's  yeah.
No no it's not but it's, it's saying how old those houses are.
all, all these
Yeah?
are really old.
They look quite new.
Yeah.
Well no they're kept to look like new  really old.
Were th , were those white boards always there?
It's got a Surrey  Surrey badge on it look.
Building of historical interest.
What's so historic about that?
Don't know  well it's probably near erm three or four hundred years or something.
Yeah.
Everything's old around here isn't it?
Apart from it's sort of like everything's old that side
Yeah.
everything's new the other side.
More modern, yeah.
Talk about that being out of place.
Look at that.
What?
Well
What  Budgens?
That bloke looks like your Derek doesn't he?
The old Sunday school teacher.
What in the car?
Chap here, yeah.
Does he?
Bet Derek wishes he'd have a car like that.
Nice.
He's only got a beat up old Metro.
Yeah.
Spent four hundred pounds on it.
They, they had a documentary on Metros apparently and the Me they said that Metros of a certain period for about, I think  from his period sort of  A registration, B registration, Y registration  they're absolute rubbish apparently.
Yeah.
You know, all the rusting and everything, they've improved now.
The Me if he had a Metro now he'd, you'd get a better deal but they said that
They're cheap though aren't they?
Well yes but not cheap if you have to keep replacing them and
Think he'll probably buy a new car  probably.
photographic  photo service.
How do you spell sergeant?
I've always wondered that.
Is that how you act is that sergeant?
Erm  yes.
It's not S A R?
Er  I think the American version is and I think that's the English version and that's right.
So his name is actually somebody sergeant?
Yeah.
Ooh I wouldn't mind buying that, look.
For sale, doesn't say a price though, but look, doesn't half look new doesn't it?
Where?
Complete new Opel body I reckon he's got there.
T registration but  Opel Manta.
Nice.
Genesis.
Who's that?
Oh that's Phil Collins isn't it.
This corner here gets worse and worse, traffic lights and yet the traffic 
Yeah.
gets further and further back.
And yet  two or three years ago it used to stop up there.
Now you stop further, now you're almost stopping on the lights.
The lights are getting clogged up .
Yeah.
You know those sporty rollers?
They don't have all that pine in them.
Don't they?
That wood.
No.
No.
Suppose  it's not very zoopy sport does it, like ?
No, it's not conducive as a  sporty image  the walnut facia.
facia.
Don't think.
How do they make that building curved?
architecture.
They're quite nice actually aren't they?
They, they're a bit run down.
They could have a bit more money spent on them.
Had a new roof I note but
Yeah.
They're always for sale.
There's always a for sale sign out outside one of those or one of those.
I reckon it's one of those flats, you can always get a flat there.
Are they flats?
So many that, er yeah, so many of them that  soon as one's sold somebody else sells another one.
Yeah.
Well how many are there?
Seventeen to twenty
Oh 
twenty one to twenty six.
It's a lot isn't it?
Yeah.
Specially both sides.
Yellow flag coming out of his aerial.
Oh where would you prefer your ae aerial?
Would you like it there  up there or at the back?
Up there's alright.
I like it the way the ones that you can  close each time, now I'm sure my aerial will last longer.
Cos you can 
What do you mean close.
Well it compacts.
Oh yeah.
The ones that stick out all the time, they  I suppose that is good.
If you have one that doesn't compact, you you're best to have one in the middle cos it's less likely to get pranged there isn't it?
Yeah.
Here like walkers by can bend it and  Oh look.
Here's my next one.
Six.
I've let six go now.
You must have let someone go before now.
I didn't, no I haven't.
No.
Haven't had the opportunity to.
What is this lady dressed up like?
What has she got on  ?
What has she got on her hair?
Weird.
Bunch of wool .
She'll be thinking where's that wool?
Oh it's on my head.
Look at those tiny rugby posts.
Yeah, I don't know why they do that, I was gonna ask that, why they chop those off, look like they've been vandalized don't they?
Yeah.
It's only for junior rugby though.
They haven't replaced that garage have they?
It's Volvo's in there.
They've got no-one, no-one's 
Yeah.
Put a new garage in there already.
There's loads of new garages going in all over the place.
Volvo 
Could have let that one go but I was too late.
Yeah.
Volvo seem to be  moving out all over the place.
I think they're trying to set up  er nought, their own things rather than just joining petrol stations.
Where's the Secombe centre 
Back there.
Have you been to that place, Holiday Inn?
Headphones on the wall again.
Oops a daisy.
Is that the B & Q down there
Yeah.
or the Texas?
B and Q.
martial arts.
So so far I've let six people go.
That's not bad.
Six!
It is bad.
You let five go in a second.
Well I could you could let this one go but I think he's gonna come out isn't he?
I don't know what to do.
Here you are, no, I'll let him go, oh two I let go!
That's eight.
Oh brilliant.
Yes!
Eight!
Wow.
Eight people.
Wowsers Eight people.
She's gonna sit there all day  she's that far back .
Funny.
Think it's obviously to do with trusting your car's power.
It's also being alert  to watch.
I mean some people just don't expect you to let them out so they're dreaming mostly .
Yeah.
Times you flash people  er?
And you have to flash flash flash flash flash before you know oh, oh, ooh!
let her out.
You know, they're just, they're just waiting you know, sort of  Others are like on the ball almost too much.
They whip across you before you've even thought about it.
Isn't Texaco around there somewhere?
Texaco?
Er  no that's B P.
Texaco is round the corner.
Don't forgot to switch that off when we go in the garage.
Yeah.
Oh look.
Number nine.
Yes!
Number 10?
No I can't cos they're, they won't let her, let them go.
Get stuck there.
I, I'll ask about that.
Yeah?
Yeah.
No I know about it.
You have to send off.
Do you?
Yeah.
But have you got a form or something to get at the garage?
Er  you can ask then.
It's those ones where you just flick it around.
What were they called?
What were they called?
Er
I, I know arm bands but was it, is there a name for it?
Protective arm bands?
Flick them.
Er
Flick arm bands?
Flick on bands, yeah
Flick on bands?
Flick on bands .
You want me to go in a garage and ask for, have you got a flick on band!
You flick off!
You're the one that wants them.
Squire car company.
Why have they got all
Fancy having a car called eggs.
E E G S, dad.
Oh that's the way you spell eggs.
It's not!
How far have we got through this tape?
Flick it off now.
The garage is here.
Yeah.
Sort of past half way.
Can't believe these are only forty five minutes.
Cos we've been talking  at least there.
Mm.
This is a tricky one to get in to isn't it?
This is the one, you know I went wrong in the B P?
This is the one I always think I was thinking about.
Yeah?
And when I went wrong the other time.
What, what other time?
You know, went to the Esso and I went all wrong and I couldn't le , I went down a no en 
Oh yeah.
Woman said no way .
No way chummy.
Oh there you are  children should be   application forms here.
Yeah it's going round.
Why must you check, every time?
Cos I think sometimes it doesn't .
You just sit there thinking you're taping and you're not.
Oh.
Er  how did she get it on there?
Pooh.
Mummy's gonna say that's very strong, Paul.
In fact put it at the back somewhere I think  pong.
No.
Why should we have it in the back?
That's it.
Really strong innit?
Can you put that in the  in the  glovebox then please.
Do you wanna bit of this?
No thank you  Bounty   What's the Egbert fund?
I'm supporting the Egbert fund.
Do you know it?
Looks like er the spastic one.
Oh.
No we've picked the wrong one there.
I don't think we'll pick spice again, do you?
No.
Ooh!
Smells like somebody's lavatory .
Looks like you'll have to sort of like  put it up for a day and then  take it down for a week and put it back in again.
It's too much for one day .
You shou , perhaps you should have kept the  bag on it.
You know it's too strong to .
You take the bag off, off it after a month or something.
Even your Bounty must taste a bit poorly.
Yeah?
Yeah.
Bet the bloke listening to this can hear it  smell it.
I know.
Put it in there.
.
open the glovebox when we get 
Yeah.
Er  hang on though, perhaps that's not so good.
I, it might make the sweets taint.
Mm.
I reckon we'll  when, when we get out we'll put it in the boot and it'll  filter through  through on its own .
Ooh dear!
How about just keeping it in the bag?
It's overcoming me.
Yeah.
Open your window, quick.
Oh  look.
Panic.
Not everybody's window, Paul .
Ah!
Strewth Pauly.
Disgusting.
I'll just keep it down there.
In the bag.
Oh it's disgusting smell.
And why did you hit this car?
Well you see 
my son took his magic  pongo tree out
and I was overcome, thus hitting the car in front.
I see Mr .
Do you expect us to believe that do you?
Yeah .
Yes.
He is an idiot.
Can you leave that alone!
I leant on it.
Lean out a bit cos I'm shutting the windows again.
No I want it.
I  
I hope this traffic jam's not all the way to Croydon.
I do so hope.
Oh can you imagine what that Purley Way's gonna be like?
Forget the s , egg and chips Pauly.
Forget mummy's present.
Oh what are they having here now?
The Christmas fair.
At the moment I'm just trying to forget that awful spice stuff.
innit?
Yeah I think you did wrong.
You should, you shouldn't have er yeah.
You shouldn't have er  opened the packet.
It's funny that shop didn't smell of it did it?
So I mean  the seal must keep it all in until you open it up.
Ugh ugh.
open it ugh .
No it's quite a nice smell if it's like taken out now.
We'll put it in the boot or it'll just be sickening on the way home.
Yeah.
person listening to this tape will probably go ah .
I can smell it when I'm listening to it!
There's our little football group.
Look, it's getting bigger and bigger.
What little football group?
There!
Yeah.
Got a lady teaching, got a team to go there.
Do you remember that lady that ran the team at er St John's?
Yeah.
Quite keen.
Oh yeah, her.
how her little team got on.
Whether it folded or not.
Probably did.
I think a lot of them do.
Yeah.
You imagine what Purley Way's gonna be like ton , today.
Christmas shopping .
Awful 
Oh we're taking  forget two o'clock.
I said two o'clock we'd be parking.
Stopped for petrol I suppose.
Yeah but dad, not for that long.
So when will we park now?
Set an estimate 
Well look there's an  estimation look they're  parking, they're queuing on this brow of the hill instead of the other one.
Everybody's got Christmas fairs on haven't they?
Look, balloons.
This is the day.
Yeah.
No, fifteenth is the day.
Or sixth 
Are we going to ?
Yeah.
It's the toy service tomorrow isn't it?
Is it?
Yeah.
That really is a strong  
No it could, you could overcome, I wonder if there's a warning on the packet.
Do not open this and drive at the same time.
Really heady.
On an empty stomach it's made me feel quite queasy.
Oh look he's done, someone's done that to his, look, look.
Smashed his wing mirror, look  jam a glass in it, er sock in it to stop  the glass falling out .
Oh it's not too bad.
Yes Paul.
Well really you should have read shouldn't you?
Dad!
You  told me to take it all the way out.
Should have got that blue one.
I knew that was your fault.
Stinks!
Yes but you opened it all.
Actually I don't even want it anywhere near me.
Ah.
It's gone all my nose funny now.
nose I've got  my asthma.
Asthma.
Asthma.
By the way, if you can hear a word I say you're better than I am.
Oh get this out.
Phew.
I'll have to lob that  
That car's got smile  just to annoy everybody .
What?
Smile, just to annoy everybody that blue Datsun says on 
What does that, what does that mean?
Ooh, yeah be pleasant and ooh.
There you are, look, look 
You can read that ah.
I thought you meant that  what about the one in front of it then?
Baby on board.
I can't stand those ones.
Can you see?
Well I can see 
I can see the baby.
Well a baby is on board.
Give them their due.
Oh, oh it's made all my throat go all funny.
Pay someone to take it away.
Very long lasting.
Yes, very long lasting.
Hang on, I'm just opening the window again.
Recording commences at three past two.
With   .
Got a Palace  picture on.
Man United!
Oh.
Don't let them out.
They can stay there.
We hate United.
Hello again.
Hello, hello, hello.
Who is that  munching cashews on the tape .
Here we go, you go right close, go  ah!
You wicked trickster you.
Would you like a cashew nut?
You can't have a cashew nut.
Oh come on.
I like the big ones.
You would.
That's me!
Mm
Tasted nicer ones.
Can't afford to eat them like that!
Mm  can.
Mm.
Lovely.
Should eat them about a quarter at a time.
Why are the dearest things the nicest?
Don't eat them like that!
Mm.
I can't, look at you eating them like that.
One at a time.
Oh look Pauly hot rod.
Hot rod!
Woo woo, nice.
Mm.
No!
That means give me the packet.
Hurry up, come on.
What?
Quick.
Give me the packet please, they're mine.
What me?
What.
Oh that's where you should go for your computer, look.
P C World.
Yeah.
This bit's not so bad.
Once you get through that  traffic light back there
Yeah.
it's alright.
Mm.
Soon as these lights go we should get here, through here quite quickly.
Mm.
Long lights.
I command thee to become orange.
Orange.
Well it's so long for the .
They make them longer during the evenings and Saturday.
Orange!
And this lot have got to go first haven't they?
Mm.
Yeah   .
Quite ridiculous.
Far too long.
Far too long, yeah.
How do people know it's gonna change?
They just sort of start their engines  still red.
changes.
Regulars down here I should imagine.
Where?
Regulars probably who come down here and know 
Regulars .
They can count.
Yeah.
No they can probably see down the end and they  
Well these lights used to be quite easy, didn't mind being stopped by them.
Now you're petrified of being stopped by any of them cos you know it's
Yeah.
really long wait.
When are they gonna bring those towers down?
Don't know.
Which way would they tumble them?
I don't think they're in any rush to develop now, are they cos this housing business is so poor.
whoever's got the land has decided 
are they boarded off.
You can't go up there any more?
No.
That is so naff isn't it?
Putting your scarf across the car like that.
I know.
What's it say.
Crystal Palace.
Least it says Crystal Palace.
Right.
Who shall we, who shall we get
What?
as a replacement for somebody.
Who is there?
Who would you like?
If we had all the money.
Buy Ian Wright back I suppose.
No.
I'd sell Bright.
No I wouldn't sell Bright.
I'd buy someone first.
Make sure someone was interested in  .
I'd buy Deane  and swap Bright in exchange for Deane.
No matter how bad he doesn't like it  he's well and truly gutted.
Er so him for Deane and 
Yeah but Deane won't be available till the end of the season.
There's no way Sheffield United  
Er I dunno.
just stoking the price up I think.
Cos it's not old Bassett now, this is what it's all about.
to get the odd draw you need the odd goal and er it's not gonna come from any other people than er
Oh yeah, Deane.
Deane.
But Deane didn't score today.
It was Beazley apparently.
Beazley.
Beazley.
Er I might see if I could pick up that  Sheffield United guy Jamie Hoyland.
He's quite good.
As you say the main problem is, as you say is are you going to change your whole  team, game 
Yeah.
I don't know.
I think they'll do it slowly but  not this slowly.
I mean I th I think we should have bought someone along with er Gabbiadini to play with him.
could just bring him and expect  stuff.
Mm could you get 
I think he's gonna have to raid the bottom divisions again, you know.
What sort of bottom divisions?
he's probably got his eye on .
I mean that Coleman was a very good buy wasn't he?
Yeah?
Yeah.
How much did he cost?
Three hundred and fifty.
Three hundred and fifty.
No it wasn't, it was three hundred.
It was two 
Yes it was.
Three hundred and fifty.
Oh anyway, it was still pretty good wasn't it?
Wasn't cheap, I mean
No, but I mean you could see   play really well .
I mean Southgate's all the more pleasing when you think he's somebody that's worked his way up, right?
Yeah.
That's really nice to see.
And he played really well.
Southgate is a harder person to mark isn't he?
Yeah.
I think I'd drop Mortimer  oh look, Palace.
Red car  it's like ours isn't it?
Yeah.
I'd drop, I'd drop Paul Mortimer
Yeah.
and have Collymore in right?
And encourage  that's the trouble, you drop Mortimer you drop somebody who can er flip the ball in but  I think you definitely want to take the heat off Wright.
Now if if all Collymore does is distract   but Mortimer was not playing enough of the game.
We can't afford  people like Mortimer to, I mean he scored a goal  but I mean
Yeah.
Eddie  I think is worth  sheer sort of  opening teams up.
Well he does open, there's no  not many players can play a team better like  than opening up 
So what'd you do, say you had  back next week so our next game against Birmingham.
What would you do then?
Well I mean they've got, they've got, he's gotta do something because you're gonna lose that Birmingham game.
can see that coming now.
But Birmingham must have won today cos they had equal top  must have won I would have thought.
That's good.
Chelsea won one nil.
How do you know?
You'd have thought Forest would have beaten Chelsea wouldn't you?really annoyed after being 
Yeah.
I suppose so.
What are you gonna buy mum?
He's gone the whole hog that guy  hanging down to his
Oh.
So what are you gonna buy her?
Newbury Fruits?
Or something like that, er
They did very well with those little tulip hand out  things didn't they?
There's a lot of people who er don't, who would not have gone to the bother of going into the shop and buying a one pound or two pound or four pound  
But why did they do well out of them if they were free?
Well yeah they're free but they've got their advert on it haven't they?
Tulip 
tulip tulip, I mean  you're like a roving little advert aren't you?
I mean it, it draws your eye those little pictures doesn't it?
You  
Oh he's got, he's got the hanging one at the front hasn't he?
And he's got a badge on the right hand side as well.
Yeah.
So he really is  
You see that guy next to us?
He's got a Palace earring hasn't he?on one of his ears.
Oh my goodness.
On his left ear.
He's nice though isn't he, wasn't he, he did say something
Yeah.
I didn't have to say anything.
I said to him  I don't know, he said  did you enjoy yourself Tuesday?
Oh I said, did you see us?
Oh yeah we saw you.
And his dad's nice.
Yeah.
But that other bloke was there but he wasn't in his normal place.
Yes  
Why wasn't he in his normal place?
Palace played really well.
The first twenty five minutes, when you think we were one nil up right I thought gosh  if we could get that second goal it would have made all the difference and United would have been really would have been in trouble.
Was a good game though.
Oh I enjoyed it, yeah.
Just don't enjoy Palace losing, but   sheer football   and it just shows you that ironically the two games can match each other and there were chances for Palace to wrap that game up.
But er  when they do play that ball to ball  business erm 
Yeah.
we look like we've got huge spaces in our  in our midfield.
I mean  that's what teams are doing now, they're realizing that's where all our weakness is in midfield  so  don't take a er a hefty boot and try and er er  people like Thorn and  I mean Thorn and Young were impeccably  they played beautifully today.
You cannot ask Thorn and Young, I've never seen two players play  they do, they did th , they do the simple thing  but they do it consistently well.
Over and over again, maybe a hundred, hundred and fifty times in one match and they'll make one mistake and usually like Coleman was there to c , I think Coleman backed up well and Gareth  backed up well once or twice.
But defence wise  superb.
Absolutely su , there was a lapse with that guy, don't know who was to blame about that third goal but I mean
It was Young.
Er Young let it plop over 
Oh, didn't see who it was.
It was like, it was like a, like they were waiting for an offside or some there were just couldn't believe, it was 
But it was the same when Palace scored and exactly the same thing happened didn't it?
Why do they lapse?
It's weird.
Yeah, it's  well they do say both sides that it's the most dangerous time straight after a goal.
I mean often, times you see teams equalize immediately.
You know it's like, you sometimes you can go a whole game like seventy minutes of a game and no-one's had a goal scoring chance
Yeah.
and then someone scores and the guy goes in straight calmly and scores straight away.
You know it's people aren't
Yeah.
I don't know, it's psychologically sort of still got their mind on going through what's er
On what happened.
Yeah.
It's like at school when they're thinking oh no, no and they've scored again.
It's like you've scored, you're so elated and you  
Fact you you often sort of watch videos of managers.
Managers are often shrieking you know about what's happening next rather than you know, all their players are jumping with joy all over each other and you think  and they're saying get in your positions.
Do your stuff.
Don't let it slip straight away, I mean  That was annoying thing is that we didn't deserve to lose three one really, I mean
Sneak that  that box of sweets in then for mum .
I bet she knows you've done that for her.
Eh?
I bet she knows you've bought that for her.
Well she knows that we're giving her something, yes.
I mean we could have been worse, could have forgotten completely.
I mean it's easy, cos when mum gets all those things for everybody else, clearly she doesn't get something for herself.
Don't know why not.
What did you get her last year?
It was the same thing wasn't it?
No I didn't get, we didn't do this did we, last year?
Yes we did.
We always have the tree presents.
Do we?
Our sunroof's pretty isn't it?
You what?
Our sunroof's pretty isn't it?
Very stylish.
What's the time?
This  very busy road, isn't it?
I suppose so.
busier.
seems to be very busy 
So does the other way.
Yeah.
Because of mum.
where the heck are we.
hundred percent better 
Yeah you were well fluky then, getting the 
How come that shop had them and the other one didn't?
you wouldn't believe it would you?
No.
nice big posh shop like  and it's got cheap
Yes.
and nasty  in it.
Yes.
Hope you're enjoying it.
follow you up 
It would be real boring just listening to a load of rubbish wouldn't it?
I mean making up conversations all over the place.
Suddenly it clears  this bit.
What you're memory?
No this road.
Oh, this road.
Why?
Dunno some go off that way 
I mean, let, some people go up go off where?
Where is it leading to?
Don't know.
I don't really know.
What's all this, why does Meltis always have that stand of eighty, eighty years?
Well it's how long they've been going, I suppose.
Surely they've been  for the last four years and they must  or do they just keep it at eighty one then they go to ninety?
I don't know.
I've never noticed that badge before.
Hallo  how many miles have we done?
sixteen thousand one hundred and sixty.
How many did we have when we bought it?
How long ago
Fourteen thousand 
how long ago was it that we bought it?
September.
September?
Ages ago.
Yeah.
twelve thousand miles 
Twelve thousand?
No way, not at eight.
What if we lose at Birmingham Paul.
Will you wanna go to the Chelsea match?
What Chelsea match?
Well the Chelsea match is the following Tuesday.
Is that  yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And what Saturd , what's the match on Saturday before squeezed in between that?
What?
I don't really know.
Er  erm  is there a game  on Saturday?
I think there might be.
Oh I've got it, I've got it.
It's come to me.
It's come to me.
It's come to me.
Oh not a big team is it, again?
Tottenham.
Oh no!
Oh no it's not Tottenham.
No, you know when we played our Birmingham replay?
Yeah.
That night we were gonna play Tottenham.
Were we?
Mark  told me that.
It was on his picture list.
Really?
That night we were gonna play Tottenham
Oh well.
in the league.
Oh sorry.
Perhaps we can play Tottenham when they haven't got er Gary Lineker in  their games any more.
Yeah.
You start hitting periods like this and you think  oh no.
You think every team  you start worrying about almost every side don't you?
Yeah.
Oh we always worry about every side cos Crystal Palace  always hate the  bad sides.
Cos usually we do well against the Man United and as soon as we start  losing against them we start getting worried.
They outplayed us last season at fairground didn't they?
Liverpool 
What do you mean  at Liverpool?
What did Liverpool do to them then?
Well we lost  no we beat them two one 
Yeah.
I remember that.
Most surprising result of that season.
Not really.
Was it?
It is when you see us struggling against Birmingham.
What do you think the score's gonna be against Birmingham?
Three one to Palace.
Three one to Palace?
Be great if that is.
We will score first.
They will equalize and we'll score two more.
We have got to get another goalgetter.
I mean old erm   does his bit  crossing and splitting defences and getting goals but not scoring them.
What do you mean, getting goals and then not 
Now, well now  it's just now we've got nobody who, who score actually really scores goals  except Thomas I would say at the moment.
We really do need somebody who regularly pops them in.
What about Gabbiadini?
What about Gabiadini?
Well  he's coming along.
I don't see him  
I think he  he had a really good first half  I think it like, I think that  to be fair, apart from Coleman an Southgate everybody faded in the second half didn't they?
Yo.
Yo  
Yeah.
What's that, Man United fans?
Wallington.
Where's Wallington?
Oh that's boring.
Why are we going this way then?
Are, are Manchester United not the most cockiest fans going aren't they?
They really are cocky .
Yeah.
Leeds, I like Man United, I don't, I don't hate them or anything I just, they get a bit I dunno.
Mind you not that they've had an awful lot of success recently but they are, really are a cocky lot.
Leeds are aggressive so you're always quite glad that you've beaten them but .
Specially with Palace I think they seem to think  but they really .
Should have finished them off in that first 
Yeah   Can I just flick the light on for a second?
Thank you.
Yes, see who  I mean  I can't think of anybody who's in the reserves who could do any better than the lot that are in, in at the moment.
Can you?
Other than perhaps give Colleymore a full blooded  game, right?
Doesn't he get a full blooded game at the moment?
I think perhaps it's, it's worth it now.
The season, I mean we're not gonna come top of the league are we?
Right?
We've gotta make sure we stay in the first division but 
I think we can afford to blood Colimore as a good one now.
He could have this whole of this season to get used to playing, right?
Yeah.
And then who knows what fireworks could happen the season after.
I mean  he's never gonna be a  when he's obviously another Bright.
Who wants another Bright?
We're supposed to  to the better style of play.
No, I don't know.
Well why did we buy Gabiadini?
Why?
What would be the point of buying Gabiadini?
No, well I, I mean you saw the point really.
I mean  to pick I mean who, who  who could replace ?
He's, I, he, the way he plays is virtually unique, isn't he?
So I mean you're not gonna say  well let's go and get another Ian Wright off the peg so fair enough.
But er  in the kind of situation where Ian Wright was very very good was in tight situations.
differently through se sheer speed and  but er I can see Gabiadini  I mean Ian Wright never flicks like some of the flicks that he does.
I mean some of the flicks are fantastic.
But erm there is a nice side to his game but god he doesn't half fade.
Can you afford somebody that fades like that, I don't know it's
The whole team fades at the moment.
I, I, that's what I would do.
I'd drop Mortimer now and er  keep, I wouldn't, I'd  keep McGoldrick up  don't have him as a sweeper.
I mean if you're gonna have McGoldrick as a sweeper then you'd have to bring Mortimer back but
Why not 
I noticed it was quite odd that he didn't use McGoldrick as a sweeper did he?
I mean we, we went out to win that game didn't we, again?
Well, don't you think?
Yeah.
We didn't play a  and yet the defence played well enough.
So I think drop Mortimer and bring Colimore in for a full  ninety minutes and then and and again and again and again.
Get sort of like  half a dozen games.
I think drop Bright  Colimore.
Well.
I mean Bright, I mean
Well yes, you could say, yes
you've got, you've got an excuse to drop Bright.
Bright's tired.
You could say Bright is absolutely tired.
He looks tired at the moment.
Just drop Bright .
There's no need to drop Mortimer.
Not when he's playing well.
Mm yes.
Well he, he didn't play well in the second half though did he?
I don't think.
He sort of 
Give me a player that did, outside
Yes, well, yes.
Coleman and Southgate.
Well it  it was one of the, I mean when you saw
Oh look, that's where Fergie made those funny faces.
Oh and you didn't see that did you?in the paper .
Look Croydon  Caterham valley.
eyes.
Christmas presents.
Er one thing, what's the name of this record you want?
Enya.
It's in the, it's in  I think it's number nine in the hit parade 
What's it called?
What's Enya's record called now Paul?
Eh?
Enya's record?
Shepherd's .
It's number nine wasn't it?
What?
Nine, wasn't it?
Number nine.
I don't remember
What's the cover look like?
It was number three when I 
It's silvery.
Greyish.
It's not silvery it's blue.
Is it?
It was green last time you I asked you.
Enya anyway.
Are you celebrating your birthday tomorrow?
Well Paul was asking this, when  well  I'll have some presents.
Whoever comes, brings me in we'll open those.
Do you want yours opened ?
I'll open one in the morning I think.
Up to you, what do you think?
I don't mind .
So you'll take Paul to church in the morning will you?
Alright.
Well you can drop him off and pick him up.
I could do, yeah.
Now you've found my keys for my  I really need to get those 
What's that he's got?
What's that?
My .
You bought it?
Yeah.
More money than sense.
Wonder what he looks like now?
How old was he there?
Nineteen sixty eight, so that's  twenty three years ago.
He was only twenty three then I should think.
Let us have a bit of the paper.
Listen to this.
Absent minded spinsters Beryl and Doris  lost their car in a repair shop .
Yeah I know!
I read that.
The sisters are eighty and eighty one reported the mini stolen
And bought another one.
got the  er three months later they received thirteen hundred pound pay off from insurance Commercial Union and promptly bought a replacement car.
But when they booked their new car into Tristar Motors for its first service, they found their old model waiting for them .
That is  dreadful garage that didn't phone to find out why they hadn't picked it up though, isn't it?
I'd have thought
Unless they lost their address.
Hee hee hee hee.
I mean the fact that this come  out is that the 
That was in the Mail  That was in the Mail.
Yeah but the fact it's come out is that they've been honest.
Isn't it?
Right?
Yes.
You could have kept that quiet, anyway.
Oh I should think the garage publicized it.
I remember this one.
Who's that?
Kinks isn't it?
Ray Davies?
Yes.
Tears of a Clown.
No it isn't.
No I know but he, that's what he's famous for isn't it?
Tears of a Clown.
I bet someone's vid , I bet Alan's videoing all these.
Put them all together.
Look at the sets in  in sixty eight .
You could, as the camera goes by you can see where all the sellotape and the gum's stuck to boxes.
I mean look at those boxes.
Just  just  scrappy old blue  looks like something the art college has knocked up.
Who is that?
Moody Blues isn't it?
Is it?
Ha ha you used to look like that.
They all look like  Allied Carpet salesmen now don't they ?
I mean  they looked old then don't they?
I mean  you didn't have sixteen, seventeen year olds in those days coming through did you?
They were sort of like
Mm.
I mean look at those boxes.
You can see all the sellotape and the bubbles and
Where?
Oh you've got poor eyesight then.
We need a new aerial.
Where's the other bit of paper?
Which other bit of paper?
Croydon Advertiser?
Yeah, well which bit have you got there?
There you are.
Has it got the adverts in it?
Jaws is on telly Paul.
Er?
Jaws is on tonight?
Jaws is on.
Included The Who, The Small Faces, The Move, The Kinks, The Moody Blues and Jimi Hendrix.
Absolute rubbish on television.
That's what Merle said.
Now House of Elliott's finished  she's got nothing to watch.
I bet she's watching Bugsy Malone.
Did you hear that, Winston Churchill's doing Bugsy Malone?
Oh.
And Catherine's in it and that er  I said ooh haven't you seen it Merle, she said no.
I said ooh I've got the video.
She said well what's it like.
I said ooh  you'll either find it really funny or you wouldn't  find it funny at all but erm
How could you not find it funny?
Catherine  well I can see that
Oh!
I can imagine that Tom would find it funny.
I said it's a very good film.
Anyway Catherine's got a very small part in it.
She's a German reporter or something.
Which I couldn't even remember a German reporter .
A German?
I said what do you work for Fat Sam?
I don't think she knows it very well.
She said she's seen the film but none of the other family have seen it.
You know.
Where they, they're having a fight and  they've got all the different people in the news like Chinese people go  and there's fights and then they get, there's custard pies thrown at them.
Oh yeah.
And Germany  going boom boom boom boom 
That's just gonna make an awful mess on stage isn't it if they  ?
Is that all she's got to do?
Yeah.
She said it's a very small part.
They go pow  they've got french people being fired at 
I wonder if they'll have the er custard pie part in it?
Oh yeah?
Splurge guns.
Splurge guns 
?
Yeah.
Splurge guns.
Oh look.
Pete Townshend.
The Who.
I met Liz  in er Woking Paul.
I met Liz  in Woking.
stall made over seventy pounds.
And  Jo  won a major raffle prize.
Liz said  isn't it typical.
She won a huge box of groceries.
Liz said I won a raffle prize.
I said oh what did you win?
She said well  it was down to the last two she said, I had a choice between a red and green cushion  or a fitness test.
Ah!
So she said I took the fitness test.
I said you don't need a fitness test Liz .
She was waiting for her husband.
Her husband's much older than her.
Her husband 
Well she 
could be her father.
Oh no.
Well he's  he's fifty five.
He is fifty five.
That's why she's talking about him retiring isn't it?
Yeah but I mean she  looks about fifty five to me .
Liz!
She's younger than you isn't she mum?
Actu no she probably is forty five but she only looks 
She's not younger than us.
about forty.
The way she carries herself makes her look  
I  I thi feel I look I I feel thirty  so I mean I always think 
And Liz makes herself look   
I thought that was very interesting that
She's so fit though.
Oh look it's all when The Who used to smash their rec , all their, I mean that used to be disgusting.
What are they doing?
They used to break up all their things on stage.
Dreadful isn't it?
Why?
Well that's what pop groups used to do.
They went to total excess and  then they had to come back the other way.
Well look at them now.
Well one died.
The guy, the drummer just drove his car into the swimming pool didn't he and drowned.
What the one that drums there.
Yes Paul.
Not the one holding his guitar.
what's he trying to smash it all up for!
Well that's what they did!
They were only old instruments.
They didn't smash up anything valuable.
Why did he drive his car into the swimming pool?
Well that was the point.
I think they did.
Oh.
Why don't you ever pick up the freebie papers?
They've got the property in, I'm always interested in those.
Is he still alive, Pete Townshend?
Yes.
Cor look!
Christmas shopping in Croydon Tuesdays and Thursdays.
And the week before Christmas Monday Tuesday  Thursday Friday.
He's dead though Jimmy Hendrix isn't he?
Yes.
He's dead.
Look here Paulie, you come and have a look at this.
This is Crystal Palace going up in f flames.
November the thirtieth nineteen thirty six.
Look, there's the shape of Crystal Palace.
Gutted in one night.
Were you alive then dad?
No I was not.
You said you could see it.
You lying hound.
No that was the that was the furniture repository.
No you said
Yeah that was the furniture repository  nothing about the crystal palace .
No
Thank you ma.
I'd nearly forgotten that.
I thought how on earth did I get myself 
You plonker .
stuck in that one.
No ages ago you said you saw it.
We've been to the site haven't we?
Eh?
site.
The site is where the zoo is.
Oh I'm taking the phone up to phone my sister.
I'll stop the tape and
clock, with the children.
We were Christmas shopping can you imagine  
Six hours!
Awful.
So I said what have you got it all then?she's bought your present but she can't post it.
She said it's heavy 
What is it?
so you might be getting something else.
It's quite a nice book.
So I  
So she's gonna buy Simon either chocolates  dairy miniatures
Yeah.
or  a supply of chocolate miniatures.
Or a supply of caps for his gun.
Can you pull the curtain please Paul.
What a big supply?
Do you reckon that's quite a good idea?
Yeah.
A supply of caps for his gun.
Twelve 
Yeah I told her twelve .
Or roll cap.
Make sure it's  Oh yeah.
It's two new guns.
One takes roll cap and one takes  
Well we've got plenty of roll cap haven't we?
We've got a wadge of roll cap.
That's 
Yeah but, the rate he
you know 
goes through it.
She might as well buy a year's supply.
She doesn't know what to buy, she might as well buy something useful mightn't she?
Yes it's true.
There's no point in wasting six or seven pounds.
No.
As far as I can understand anyway.
I said or a teddy that does something.
So she's bought me this book?
She had already bought it before she phoned dad this morning, so
But she's not gonna buy, give me the book though?
She says it's too heavy to post.
So she's not gonna give me the book?
Well she might, but you might have to wait till after Christmas for it.
But she's gonna send something else?
I'm not sure.
No you might be old enough to be considered you can wait till after Christmas for your present.
Paul I'd like you to do a job.
I've done a job.
I've been round to Merle's.
No.
I'd like you to do a proper job.
I'd like you to take a sponge  and I'd like you to clean the paintwork on the stairs.
Please.
What about touching up?
I'll touch up.
I've done the touching up.
So why does it need ?
You won't help will you.
I don't feel that it's worth doing.
Trophy holders Palace are now just three steps away from another trip to Wembley.
Oh that's good isn't it?
Three steps 
You're not going this time.
We are.
Yes we are.
I don't think we'll get there actually.
Chelsea kicked us out last time.
Chelsea won today.
Yeah I know.
Against the team we lost five one to last week.
Oh you can imagine what it's gonna be like tonight.
What I was glad of, we didn't play poorly.
I didn't think we played poorly.
No you didn't.
You played Manchester United.
Ha ha ha ha 
report on the telly?
Yeah they showed you that, yeah.
Have you heard it?
No, we'll have a look at it, I think Paulie missed it.
Kanchelskis scored that third goal.
It was a really funny goal wasn't it?
I know.
I didn't see that.
I didn't see who scored.
scored the second?
Hughes I think.
What's on ?
You'll have to listen to it then.
Oh  
Oh hang on you didn't see  no goals you didn't see?
No.
Oh.
Oh I s , it was on telly?
Rewind a bit then.
Right.
I do rewind it.
reading teletext 
Oh you were right, McClair Paulie.
Kanchelski
Kanchelskis
Sorry?
Kannchelsk ?
Sshh.
Did they tell you how he was?
Did they tell you how he was?
No.
Can we have a look at the, we'll have a look at the results cos I didn't see er  no no not that lot.
Turn all of it off.
Thank you for that bit.
I thought you meant Teletext.
No I thought she caught the film.
Actually there was a little bit, they showed you the four goals on the television so they might show it on the nine o'clock
Where did they, what, when did they show you on the telly?
n news.
No!
Do you know what he was doing in the car?
With the speaker?
I th he thought I didn't, couldn't see.
He was going  ooh ooh ooh.
That poor person 
What do you want?
on the end of that tape.
What do you want ?
I want er
He hasn't got a clue what he wants.
Eh?
.
What do you want?
Let's have one  results weekend league programme.
Let's have a look at  
One  five  one   
Got the gates on there, look.
Twenty nine thousand.
Is that a lot?
Well apparently it's gone up.
It says in this paper that last they could only 
they could only hold twenty seven.
But now apparently there's a, this  with this seating or something there's now can hold thirty one.
And it wasn't completely full was it?
Paulie?
No.
So it could just, probably just squeeze th 
So Liverpool's got the biggest capacity has it?
They could just get thirty thousand in there.
I think thirty one's a bit 
So Liverpool's got the biggest capacity has it?
Oh  Manchester United would  no Manchester United have er oh at home yeah.
Liverpool can hold about forty two 
Manchester City twenty two  
That's pretty low 
nearly all those were  with home fans weren't they?
What?
Well Manchester City versus Wimbledon.
Nearly all those will be home fans.
Wouldn't they?
Yes.
Twenty two and a half thousand!
Ooh.
And Manchester City are doing well don't forget.
I knew, good old Wimbledon.
That's how they stay up.
That's how Wimbledon stay up.
They go up to those games 
Nil nil.
and they make it nil nil  they've drawn wi , now with Manchester City and Liverpool in two successive weeks, nil nil.
You cannot break them down.
that's why we stay quite near the top.
Wasn't it?
Oh!
Well Villa went above us.
Or Villa are above us.
We're sixth.
Yeah I know.
No they can go above us.
They always was above us.
But they're above us on cos our goal average must look absolutely  diabolical now.
The goal average must 
Paul.
Watch my lips.
It was Wednesday that went ahead of us.
Go and turn the television off in the kitchen please.
Gosh Oldham, good old Oldham.
Did us a favour there then didn't they?
Now!
West Ham did us no favours.
One two ah ee oh ee ah  .
Can I have one five two 
What do you go like this.
Press the red button.
Cor!
Barnsley beat Newcastle three nil Paul.
What's so weird about that?
Well  poor old Newcastle.
What?
Brighton beat Plymouth.
Four nil was the biggest score.
Yeah.
Who won four nil?
Well Tranmere lost four nil at Ipswich.
Oh that was  
Southend won again.
They've gone up  
I mean who would have thought that Tranmere would have lost four nil?
Who would have thought that when you drew Southend in a cup, you think oh great we'll thrash them.
They'll be could be a first division team next season.
How come?
Southend?
They're about fourth or fifth.
Sowfend.
They won again!
Oh Swindon slipped again.
They should have won that, against Grimsby.
That is so unlucky, Ian.
Will they be home by now?
Eight o'clock, they're hoping to get home.
Er yeah I bet
Four nil .
Still.
Poor kids.
Oh I feel sorry for them.
Yeah.
You get used to it if you support Palace but
Shut it!
I was just gonna say, what games have we lost?
We are getting used to it, I mean there was a coup , a sea , last season we had
Five one you lost not long ago!
Yeah but I mean  last season we hardly, Paulie and I hardly ever used to come home having lost.
Now we're starting to get used to it.
Now you  lot.
What have we lost at home, Paulie, this season?
Come on.
A lot.
Arsenal.
Yes.
Man United.
Is that all?
Oh and you lost  
No hang on.
That's the two we've seen.
Have we lost any others?
Oh well we can't complain then, only two.
Are you sure?
Q P R we were preciously close.
Birmingham we were preciously close.
Here you are, programme here.
They hit the crossbar as well.
Oh yeah we lost against West Ham as well.
Yes.
I thought we did.
I was sure, I thou 
West Ham?
I know.
That was  that was annoying.
We should not have wo , lost that.
You'll soon be losing against Birmingham.
Birmingham.
Well they  there's another stupid mistake here!
Birmingham City L C three R.
They've got us down that we won!
One nil.
Yeah their stat statisticians are going mad.
Yeah.
Statisticians.
Would you like  page now?
Yeah, page three.
There were lots of draws.
Thirteen draws.
Oh look.
Birmingham won two nil.
Oh oh.
Look at the gate they get.
Ooh.
I don't really know.
Bury one thousand eight hundred and eighty six people!
Dreadful isn't it?
Who's that with seventeen thousand?
Wow West Brom.
See West Brom, really a first division team.
They shouldn't be in the third division.
the figures is irrelevant isn't it?
Yeah.
The figures are irrelevant.
Tradition that is, West Brom.
Just tradition.
They're getting bigger 
Even if they went out the league they'd get that number.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've been a West Brom supporter 
They wouldn't be able to afford to keep the ground on would they?
all my life.
What?
They wouldn't be able to afford to keep the ground on if they went out  
Well I mean it shows you what marvellous West Brom were.
When West Brom got lost four nil to Woking  wasn't it Paulie?
The next round they had West Brom supporters supporting, came down from 
Yeah.
Birmingham to support Woking in the next round.
Yeah.
It's pretty good isn't it?
But that's all much of a muchness isn't it?
Nothing over four.
No.
was right.
We er we would have played  Tottenham on the night of the Q P R game.
Oh.
I got mixed up with .
He said Q P R .
Did Woking play?
wasn't.
We only played them away.
Yes.
What Woking did play?
Yes well Paulie said they did.
They played
What did they do?
What did they do?
Oh I've got to see what they did.
Got to see what they did.
Two hundred and seventy five people watching  .
Oh I thought Woking were  
at Gateshead.
I am so desperate to see what they did.
Well that's it.
There aren't any more results.
Hearts won again.
What about one five seven?
There aren't any more results!
They don't have  they don't have amateur  do they?
Yes they do.
Try  can you try number one please.
There's one off for fog.
Fog?
Oh yeah there it is.
Berwick East Ham.
Can you go to number one  one five eight.
one five seven.
What would you like dear?
I would like B B C one please.
This is her.
There's 
But the Linekers had better go home.
They can't stay and look at the, that child all the time can they?
I mean it's gonna be weeks isn't it?
They've arrested it now haven't they?
There's noth there's nothing on number one about it at all.
Oh.
Sport  football 
Saturday review.
League table.
Non leagues 
Ipswich  
Three  eight.
Jemson saves the .
Now we should have picked him up.
Why didn't we pick him up?
He just floated over Sheffield Wednesday, honestly.
That's .
Are you sure Woking ?
Should be the next page
Yeah.
The  premiere.
This is so  I tell you what I'm gonna run out of here and go boogey boogey  
Oh if they've won they've done it.
Five nil!
Oh it just 
Five nil.
Oh yes !
They're just walking away with that division.
It's a waste of time.
The whole  
Do you know what  said to me?
He said 
Are they top of that division?
Yeah.
that Enfield, he was going, he said that Enfield would beat them five nil.
That was his words.
Enfield are the second team.
And they've won five nil.
They're about, that that makes them nineteen points in the lead.
Ludicrous!
So what happens?
They go into the Vauxhall league next year?
Yeah, they'll be definitely in the .
That's in their division five  couple of seasons la we could be  fourth division team.
Couple of seasons!
If Crystal Palace don't succeed you could be playing Woking.
Shut it.
Love it.
That means if they, they'll go up this season  
Shall we pack up supporting Palace and go to Woking Paulie?
Yes.
I'd pay for that.
I'll pay for 
Very funny.
a Woking season ticket  free, for nothing.
I I've done a tu turncoat once already so it's easier  for me .
There's nothing on Lineker there at all.
Yet other times  
I think we should go and watch Woking more often.
What?
You mean like every other week?
Yeah, when we're not watching
Yeah 
No I think I think we should take  go to some more Woking evening games dad.
Oh do you?
Yes!
I mean we've never been to it.
Have you ever watched Woking play?
No.
I want to.
Lineker.
The condition of the baby son of England's football  is poorly but stable.
That was yesterday's.
Ah  oh that's exactly what the other one said.
Poorly but stable.
That was on six o'clock this morning that was on.
Two people died  
Oh .
Can I just watch this please?
Ugh it's Jaws.
It's gross.
Guys getting eaten.
it or something?
No.
You don't need to  hear the music.
Ugh that's horrible.
This is a horrible film Jaws.
Look it's got somebody's body in its
It's only a plasticine model.
Gross!
But I I would just like to see how awful the graphic 
He's died.
His mate's died look.
I think he's dead.
Ooh!
Gone under.
Took him under.
Oh no!
Can I see?
I I don't mind watching it without the noise.
Gosh quick.
They're leaking.
Please mum.
Oh 
That's in the studio.
It's all in the studio isn't it?
Oh no it's not.
I mean the  the plasticine sharks  are stupid.
Oh the story of this particular one is that it er er  they tried to make out that the erm  that the the the  the shark has actually got something against  the human beings  on this boat and it keeps chasing them.
Here it comes again.
There's in a studio, that bit.
Look out here it comes.
Look it's gonna knock her right off.
He spots it.
Ugh.
Ugh.
Going through all the previous ones.
These plasticine models are so awful .
Yeah they look gross now don't they?
Oh they are quite lifelike.
Oh god it's broken.
Oh you can see it's a model can't you?
Ugh  it's swallowed it.
My  stones didn't come out very shiny.
I like these bits where there's a shot which goes down .
So can I start wearing my dressing gown before Christmas then?
No.
It's got to be wrapped up.
So has your, you can't have your song book either till after Christmas.
Oh, I don't mind that.
Ugh the towel's dirty.
Ruthus we're taping .
We're not gonna know the person who's going to listen.
Geoffrey Chaucer's here again.
speaking into microphone 
He keeps going Geoffrey Chaucer's here .
But we saw the best bit Paulie.
The last five minutes .
Have you turned it off?
No, it was the last  you know the dramatic end that everybody  who's been waiting for watching that film from seven o'clock till 
that off?
Er?
You haven't turned that off?
No.
Oh.
It records everything Ruthie.
Why is this dirty again?
All of 
Yeah mum has got a towel dirty.
I'm fed up with you.
I keep putting it in there, clean one.
But the towel's for wiping your hands on.
Don't blame me!
It's not my fault.
I'm just Geoffrey Chaucer.
The famous poet  Canterbury Tales.
Where art thou Jonathon.
Where art thou Jonathon .
Do you want to do any jobs.
I've got to finish my quiz off.
Must do that map.
Disgusting, Jaws the movie.
Too gory for Geoffrey Chaucer even.
Paul I think you should go to bed now.
Yeah.
No way dudes.
Busy day tomorrow, yes?
No way dudes.
You've got to be joking.
We'll wait till the end of the tape and then you can go.
You have gotta be joking man.
Boogey boogey.
Zachramondo dudes .
I think Paulie's invalidating most sides by total and utter gibberish.
Well isn't that what they want to know?
Eh?
What the mental cases  in Woking 
totally illiterate.
mumalissimo
I used some big words on the way down.
We're Italian now.
Mumalissimo where are you bonjourdino.
Oh Paul don't be silly!
Go to bed if you're going to be silly.
Go and learn your words for tomorrow.
bought one of those stinky old er  pine tree things and Paulie ripped the whole wrapper off it
Oh!
Spice.
and we nearly died.
It nearly overcame us.
I bet you did.
It nearly over , we were in danger of going off the road with it.
It was so strong 
Why did you let him?
I put it in the boot.
Why did you let him?
I think it'll have to be put in the garage and then put in the car once a week or something.
Why did you let him do it?
I dunno.
Unsupervised as you would say.
You've got no control over him at all have you?
Oh yeah mum wouldn't have done it would she?
You'd ripped the wrapper before 
We had the wrapper off last time.
No we didn't.
Yes we did!
No, you pull it out a bit at a time, not just
No, but we had it off last time.
Yeah the spice was   was not nice .
The spice wasn't half as nice as  
So it's  it's totally wasted then is it?
Totally wasted.
It would have been disgusting anyway.
Is it totally wasted then?
Yes.
Yes.
No well no it's usable.
Absolutely fantastic wastage.
Wimbledon got  got the right royal rave.
Watch the super dons flatten the .
The white what rave?
The .
How come they use the same box office, I suppose they would wouldn't they?
Seven seven one.
Oh it must be funny working for Palace at the moment.
You think you're doing well and you get hold of another 
Oh I get it.
Royal  royal?
Mm.
Joe Royle?
yeah.
Can I watch it, can I read it?
Eh?
No.
Watch, I'm reading my paper now.
You're always reading it.
Oh look you always get these people  we have just witnessed the top London club suffering a humiliating defeat at the hands of  .
Oh this looks good, let's see.
Is it horror?
Don't know.
Now you'll see the goals on this, now.
Because it was on the other B B C one so it should be on this one as well.
You saw them?
Yeah.
All four goals.
When?
Here's a letter that m mistakenly done today.
It says it says  it now seems painfully obvious that after our performance at Forest we have reached the stage where teams have finally worked us out.
For some time we've been in a false position and our two games against Birmingham have confirmed this .
Dunno why they're saying this bit.
Steve  may explain the game at Saint Andrews was for low to ground players .
Don't  well they.
But surely by now we have a squad to deal with such eventualities.
We have clearly lost our way in both fullback positions .
Well that wasn't true today.
Our two fullbacks played the best  of the Palace players, I thought.
Both were, couldn't been asked any more of.
Both saved instant goals.
Er  both got feet in just as goals were about to be shot and scored.
This is er ob now obvious after it's  aft as it is restricting our attacking options.
What possible reason is there for not playing Bodin?
A proven player of international quality who enjoys going forward.
We are told that we have to pay Swindon another fifty thousand if he plays.
But if we went out of the cup it could cost us more in lost revenue.
Come clean Steve.
Swallow your pride.
Play Bodin in the position you bought him for and show off our defence that otherwise will leak goals like two seasons ago .
It's not true.
Bodin's  I don't reckon's as good a defender as that.
He's a good passer of the ball  have him in the middle.
Well where then?
Dunno.
Well we cou , he might be able to use him if Thomas can't play erm on Tuesday.
I can well believe Thomas won't be fit for Tuesday now.
Not after ricking his ankle like that.
If his ankle's any, half as bad as mine he wouldn't play on Tuesday.
I chose the right Tuesday to go then didn't I?
It wouldn't be very good without Jeff Thomas there would it?
No.
Who do you reckon will be captain then?
He's gonna have steroids for it.
Who'd be captain?
Pardon Ruth .
He's gonna have steroid injections in his 
Ankle.
You mean steroid, do you?
Yeah.
She does.
I do, I think.
Aha.
What they, what they deflate your swelling quicker do they?
Yeah.
Yeah who would er  be the captain?
Humphreys isn't it?
He's not playing.
I suppose Young would be wouldn't he?
Thorn  Thorn's been captain before now as well hasn't he?
Thorn and Young!
Couldn't cr er  complain about that.
It didn't look like, you have a look at this goal.
Didn't look like Young's  problem.
Put a tape in Paulie just in  get a tape quick.
And see if we can tape this th th th last time they showed all four goals.
Clearly B B C 
I see , No.
Is this on I T V separate?
Are you there?
Are ready to record straight away, bumph with the record button?
Just a minute.
He wants to do this rap thing doesn't he?
Oh yeah.
I want to  
Yeah but still 
going all night while you were
Yeah  ha.
out  Will you chew those?
You've been a very good boy  right ha  flowers are floppy
We can record one of the party then can't we?
Yep.
You can get loads out of that could you cos people will just forget it.
Yeah so  except you've got to list everybody's name.
Yeah but then  list the name, then list the 
names of the next home tape again  they'll think it's 
Yeah but you're supposed to listen to it all off and see.
Oh no  ridiculous isn't it!
Well no so they can identify  the people, isn't it.
Yeah but then yo er  in a party situation you could probably do that in the first minutes couldn't you, I would have thought  everybody in th room will have spoken  in the first five minutes wouldn't they?
So I've just gotta jot it down quickly then.
Yeah  Oh we've got more  this time 
Yeah well  when I saw Alison's lo the flan recipes, I panicked.
Aha.
Right all those need slicing and buttering and putting on there.
Right, better do that then  so is that  or kilo?
hundred  ha  there's a  tomatoes.
Gosh!
I'll make some sandwiches  can you feel that's soft enough, if you don't like that
This
Well no I  got butter
No I'll put that on it's easier  save that for your Mum  put them on here did you say?
Yeah 
This tray?
Yeah, I'll just put this out.
I think these flans will freeze  so what we don't need
What've they got in them though?
Got any little flags for what they've got in them?
This one is prawn  and pepper
Paprika?
Pu no  well  red pepper  with paprika sprinkled on.
Yeah.
And this is  egg and bacon and mushroom  a little piece of cheese  Orville!
Well really, looks like I've only done two each  but I think I'll freeze  I'll only cut two up  lovely!
I might be able to eat that    where's the little 
Want the sharp 
black knife?
What do you want the little one for?
You said the black knife, you said.
I said the sharp one  this one  he's fairly cheap but they use him a lot,.
Alright and don't burn them then.
I think they burn very easy  Do you think everyone will dress up today?
Don't cut them completely in half like that.
Well I have.
Well, oh  best if you cut them almost to the end  like that  then butter them and stick them back together again  Have I got that cream?
I've sort of forgot about the puddings  there's blackcurrant torte up there, can you see?
And I've  two 
Ooh yeah!
black  tiny black forest gateaux, but they're here for tea aren't they so 
Well 
no need 
well yes I do tha you've done this before, that  this buffet thing, it's quite nice, people can sort of like, if they're staying they can just  say y leave it out and you sa eat whenever you want to really innit?
Oh  Nigel!
I haven't got a pie slice    .
So did I hear you say to your Mum that there's gonna be a ra exactly the same rap at a
Well it sounds the same  couldn't believe it!
Is there sugar in my coffee?
No sorry, I only put, well you got one   I suppose if they know that this rap thing won't last long 
It won't last long 
will it, so it's all gotta 
No 
be done this year 
she's  it could've been saying 
well it she could've been done last year but  we've not done this year, be gone.
No  it's funny unle I Mum says is it something that's just been published this year  you know, like if someone just published  
No.
and everyone jumped on the bandwagon, or have they all made up their own?
That is the whole  point of rap  they're completely personal  it's a personal rap.
Well Michael says you haven't been to a decent service for six weeks, till  back.
So we went so and so, that was dreadful!
We went so and so, that was dreadful!
can put your finger on it though,it it's like  it's not  what it used to be.
That's it  well tha there's Peggy says  I said oh well I'm a bit erm  worried about taking them  and I said they have been known to get up and walk out, and  said, surely not!
But Peggy says  well why shouldn't they walk out, if they're that old and they're  don't li why shouldn't they  get up and walk out ?
I thought Peggy, I   ah.
I don't think they, they don't walk out of we of er er er er er Por 
They wouldn't of , no.
Portis Head there it's too in ten tenuous .
But in a way, I i i is it better for them to walk out than  seethe and  you know, I sa are you putting a bit much on there?
Tricia says it's not butter  Are we exchanging Christmas presents today, did you ascertain that off your Mum?
I don't know  not really.
I've got them  
No I think sh 
We've gotta give them to them today have we  Andy and Michelle?
I seem to remember she says she's gonna  do that on the fourteenth.
What Christmas presents, same time as the Golden Wedding?
Mm, think so.
What at her rap?
Suppose so  give them, I mean I don't think they're gonna be opened then.
Right.
As I said, If I remember right, I said well when are you gonna come and see us before?
She said on the fourteenth, you know and give it to you then.
Well who's gonna come and see us  eh?
Mum and  what's it  and presumably, Michelle and Andy 
can give out presents that day as well, can't they, cos they'll be there.
Mm.
Where do I put the ready?
Well I'm gonna give Mutty that cake today  , just pile them up  Do you think twenty four's enough to do to begin with?
I think there is.
There is?
Ju oh.
For twelve people.
Pile them up.
Do twelve egg ones, please.
Should never have told Bill.
was coming with clingfilm  but stick the rest in there  What are you eating?
Gotta take box to school  and I can't be bothered, cos you've got the car tomorrow haven't you?
Mhm  a three day week.
You've got the car Friday, and you got the car  Wednesday?
this butter's  
Cos you're going down to  aren't you on Wednesday?
Oh yes.
Or are you not?
Have you sent Val a postcard?
Yes.
Are you going to  or not?
I didn't say I'd come and see him 
No.
on Wednesday
No.
But I did say, I'd come and say on the  the Christmas show so 
Well have you sorted out your  holiday?
yeah I  well I  I did say that I was gonna play badminton then go away and sort out that  when I see Ian  
On the Wednesday?
And have you sorted out your holiday?
How many holidays you got left?
I've only got 
No I haven't 
two days left 
Er yeah I'm sure I have.
So if you go to the Christmas do on nineteenth then you just bring Simon home with you afterwards, I think  don't you?
But you need to tell Zoe.
Right.
Cos he finishes at four o'clock on that day anyway.
Mm.
So you just bring them home at lunchtime or something give him a  
Can you do that, yeah?
Yeah we did it last year cos I broke up the day before last year  all of mine still at school that day.
Right  Got a  roll of film for the camera?
What for?
Well don't you need it to be here?
Oh what on the nineteenth?
She go  yeah.
That's a long time ahead  two weekends to go  You ought to see how badly that  can't you when you   ha ha   three bits on there   suppose you could do that now couldn't you?
Better than what I'm doing  any of it though.
If you allow a bit like .
Yeah.
I don't think I'll pie, you're right  put out mince pies  we didn't win on the pools, I've checked  I'll throw away the coupon or do you wanna see what you got?
Have you checked the aways is it?
Yes, they're all the aways written out on the top  B T shareholders, do you want this?
No thank you.
Next week pools coupon?
Yep.
Crystal Palace  cam Coppell campaigns.
Mm, keep that  where did the C draw  voucher go by the way?
Somewhere.
That one being drawn  twenty six of November  what's that one, that's Park School.
Oh I must see If I can er  Bob and Mum  not Karen and  but  Mum .
Does Mike have some er  Georgian Hotel, look at that  Christmas jokes, Daddy, Eddie's broken my new dog  how did he do that  I hit him on the  head with it   Why is Father Christmas unemployed?
Maybe you know that one, cos he got the sack.
We've both seen that one Ruth, is it alright?
Why?
Oh no  Fred  
With your way you put your foot in it 
isn't it, oh yes  perfectly harmless  no malice meant there at all but you try and convince somebody of that.
Fred it's rude to keep reaching over the table for the mince pies, haven't you got a tongue in your head?
Yes, but my arm's longer  Oh it's the Christmas crossword I could photocopy that for the children.
Where do you get that  from?
Oh look how about a Christmas customs, I wonder if the answers are in the back  what kind of fruit sauce is traditionally eaten with turkey?
Cranberry.
A well known Christmas decoration was the sacred plant of the druids  what is an advent calendar?
Was the sending of Christmas cards introduced, one  one eight two, one eight four six, or nineteen O three?
Oh let's do that, I like that one 
What event does  a  celebrate?
There's ten questions  well look up, what's wanted, can you match these nursery rhyme features with suitable Christmas presents  Humpty Dumpty, Old Mother Hubbard, Wee Willy Winky, Jack Spratt, Doctor Foster,
Now that Christmas card one, I'll have that one.
And there's a nativity quiz, quiz  What were swaddling clothes?
Why were the shepherds on a hill side afraid?this is quite a good one  shall I
that'll be the lot.
Erm  yeah  I expect the answers will be at the back.
Well I'll do a I know I'll do a Christmas section then, right?
Mhm mm  there's some answers 
Oh right,
Christmas clothes how you fill in the blanks, I saw something come sailing by, that's quite good  Little Jack Horner sat in the corner eating his
Who'd have put Michelle with this, little bit unfair to put Michelle to put between them.
Mutty.
That should be alright then, shouldn't it?
And she's got a child in that book.
Oh right.
Mu , Michelle, Mutty and Michael  but on the other hand  Michael might have to budge  You can change it all I
Done it whe who's Paul with?
With a  
No, Paul should go with
Michelle and Mutty.
Mrs Michelle and Mutty, balance it up.
Andrew and Carole  you're sure they've got to  
Andrew and Carole yes, Andrew and Carole, fine.
What goes  oh oh oh?
Father Christmas laughing backwards.
You could put that as in as bu bum question couldn't you, see if anybody gets it, right?
Postman, I have a Christmas parcel but the name on it is obliterated  can't be for me then, my  name's Jones .
So what is the best way to do, that where you ask the questions, now  they did  if you could help me out is the when  you do one section  an you hand all your papers in  somebody else marks them 
Well you don't need a lot of room, yeah just pass it around  
Ah but no what they did is somebody else marks them while the the next round was going on for
Well no you it'd have to be you 
and then they announced 
that marked it, you couldn't do that  you'd 
could 
have to pass them round and mark them instantly  then start the next section.
Would you, why?
Well cos what person could then be lying around waiting to mark the answers?
Oh I see yes.
You've only got one quiz master.
Oh I see, yes, that's right  Well let them mark their own  I mean who's gonna cheat?
Alright 
It's a bit confusing innit, swapping the papers round?
Where's the plum in this plum pudding?
Would you expect to find a dog in the plum pudding  Milly, what did you get that ten P for?
Tilly, carol singing, Milly, and what did you fifty P for?
Tilly, stopping  Right I won't look at the answers.
Now I can't go oh no!
What?
I can't give that oh oh oh, can I, cos you're in the blinking quiz!
Come here!
That says staff library, please return on it  I didn't look it, I didn't look at any answers for the questions.
Can't do the oh oh, that was funny  now you'll know it!
You are daft, honestly!
Well you could just leave it out!
What do you me why am I daft  it wasn't one of 
You 
the questions, it was one of the jokes!
You didn't say stop reading out the jokes.
I wouldn't ever stop, cos you  
well how would you have known then, you wouldn't have waded through the whole book looking for it, would you?
There aren't the hours in the day, ten to eleven, your Mum's coming at  half past twelve.
Half past twelve.
Knowing her, quarter past twelve.
So I'll take from whatever you gi can't get caught for that one.
What?
Someone played that accidentally  you can't use that!
Knowing your Mum is a  served you right!
She's been getting quite a lot of  in our jokes  over a couple  ha!
Oh he's forgotten his cool dude glasses.
Oh dear.
Oh, my Mum  rap   he's going to cool dude, cool dude.
I mean if you told her, put a C in front of it and that's what it is.
What?
Rap.
Oh  
She wouldn't understand our line of 
No.
Crap , what's that?
Crap?
You should of let 
think what you have to do Mum, so you ought to say, when they say rap, you can say that it's crap 
and she heard it, it's crap.
You think, how can somebody be on the earth, I mean
And not have 
you don't have to appreciate do you, oh yeah 
But there's probably more people who don't know what rap is, in England, than do  think about it.
Yes I suppose so .
I bet there are.
I reckon there's a lot of parents
Load of single people over the age of thirty.
know or at least sh they don't it's called rap  I've this  Yen da da day dan dan dan da day  I mean
We mustn't  he's got really, really   if it's not done well it's a  it's worse than  not doing it all.
Well the bad ones are as when the kid do it themselves  isn't it?
They make up the words themselves, right 
Yeah 
whereas  Paul's 
an the 
been  having some kind of direction there, hasn't he, I mean at 
Yeah.
however nauseating, it does all make sense, doesn't it?
Right, does it?
Actually it not an easy thing to , it sounds easy, but it's not an easy thing to do.
No I don't  did one  it did, you heard the little boy that's not getting on at home  dreadful 
You turned it off?
No  there's one on  the teachers are picking on him
Are they?
surprise, surprise
Ah the kids deserve
come on you   no   course teachers will pick on him, the only secondary school teacher that  John he walked round with him  he might have shot out of there 
That was all about 
backside!
that was only because he was  like transferred there  I thought that 
Well 
he was gonna tone do , he had to tone 
well 
down when he was
he obviously hasn't and I think it's really funny!
Or a  Christmas 
Pompous!
Yes.
Ooh I could of gone 
I mean he should 
he should have gone to private school shouldn't he, really  but then
Well probably the Dad would  but he 
No I don't think they can afford it.
The irony is, I don't think all the time, they are as pompous  they give an air pomposity don't they?
Yes I know, I think Jeremy is quite 
I don't think that Dad is at all, but
No, it's just  how they appear.
And how you were brought up, I suppose.
How I was brought up, but a no one 's ever called me pompous  I mean, the way  walks around as if he owns the place, I think it's really funny!
And I don't suppose he's made,didn't have very many friends, did he, really, at Goldsworth?
I mean Paul was one of his friends  he never had that many  so  that probably means he finds it hard to make friends, you can tell  
It's just as well Paul didn't go with him, cos Paul would've been singled out as well.
Yeah.
Teachers always  think right, he's with him, he's a new
Yep.
you know, identify with it, even if you don't  portray those  feelings.
Well I'll tell you this once  and then
Who told you that then?
Ooh who told me    I think it came from Great Grandma and then  told her.
That's if you were interested.
Well  impeachable source but I  there's no smoke without fire  and everything else I've heard  I've got to set this table .
You can't please them, that Paul managed to get the school team and he can't
Ha  Well he said he'd probably get on alright at Horstell  that's the irony of it  wasn't necessary for him to go to Winston
Do you think Mel would, I would of thought Melanie might have been the type t to sort of li be lenient on that, you know,
What different schools?
Yeah, sort of say well 
Well I mean Phillip wanted to go to  Winston.
Oh.
I am making a mess!
Urgh!
Should of left, Rufus.
Well I did leave the other one  how long do you leave it?
I'd have  should of left it till  .
I think Moira's gone to church  I think she has.
Well I might not   Peter's  entire office  dip switch  Trev.
Well I I thought  oh  go and watch the telly  and I'll send Paul round when he gets back  right, I'll take these two mugs to school, those with the  on  what did you do with the other one?
It's got quite well spiders on, but at least you feel they're being used we don't get 
Yeah.
enough out of Ha  Oh drink  two, four, six, eight, ten, there's enough bowls for ten people to have fruit salad.
That's your lot.
That's your lot   that through  how many seats there in the front room?
One, two, three, four five  six, seven, eight  no one, two  three, four  there's nine so we'll probably have to take some stools in, but I won't take them in till the last minute.
When do I add the drink in?
Well what needs to be cold that's out there?
What we having ?
I haven't got a clue, it's up to you  there's a box of wine that's been in the fridge for about six weeks!
We'll have that, that's quite a good one I think, though.
Yeah.
That's Sainsbury's  Muscadet we'll have that.
Yep.
So there's white wine  I'll put these two in the fridge, so there's sparkling orange  and there's  Sainsbury's Cascade  put a Kiri  er what does Karen have, Appletise 
Appletise.
is it?
Put that in the fridge, there's room in the fridge now  have you put an Appletise in the fridge?
In fact you could bring quite a bit of it in and put it in the fridge.
Are you going to change?
Oh you have changed.
Bloody cheeky moo!
Well those you're gardening trousers.
Oh they're alright, they go nice .
Right, I'll put some make up on  Just read them straight out the book can't you?
No I was gonna re write them down though.
I'll mark them there.
Yeah but you'd  mark the ones you know, Ruthy!
I haven't!
Where's the answers?
In the back of the book    How many sections have you got altogether?
Three so far.
What pictures?
Two pictures  and a map   countries  it's Africa so you're you're gonna do quite well Ruthy.
You're joking, there's about fifty countries in Africa aren't there!
look at it, I find it makes them easier because I think  there's gon so that's gonna be quite hard isn't it, I'll 
Do mix the countries  or 
Eh?
is it just South Africa?
Well what if they  the Burkina Faso 
Oh no I haven't been that  that bad but I reckon I've 
Well what are they like?
I've done some that i the pe 
I mean you're in the middle of a country
I've given them  er question mark on the shape of the country  it's a map   but the  ha what I think is easy, I dunno  I mean to I mean I look at maps all day long, so
Well I can't place very many, all I've placed are the ones in the middle that I used to live in  I could probably place  Zambia, Malawi  Zimbabwe  whatever the Conga is now called, I don't even know what that's now called  that's about my limit, Ghana  Nigeria, might be able to place  if it's geographical features I could place more  how many countries have you given then  in Africa?
Twelve.
Fwoar!
I won't cheat, go and look it up  oh we're working in pairs though aren't we?
Mm  that's what I mean, I y we found that with four, is even more so, what some people were strong on  others weren't and it it worked round  you know, if you picked your team right  everybody would thought perhaps it was better to have one woman in the team  or, you know, if you had four women 
Yeah.
have one man in the team it i i it's
Have you prizes?
No.
Why not?
What we got, what can we get, what can I get?
Well you've really got have something, in case o 
What you looking at the questions !
I'm no , you know my eyesight, I can't see that.
It's just walk over there and talk to me please.
Pardon?
You need three prizes, three  in case it's a team of three that win  how about buying three Toblerones?
Right.
I'll send Paul to get them  I don't think I've got three of them in the house  Surely you don't have to write them out.
Well I it's easy isn't it?
Hope Adrian's in a good mood  You haven't seen  what work he's doing at the moment then, how does he know?
Quick look at the tape  ooh what's this?
Bet you couldn't cut all those pictures off.
Oh yeah.
That's Michael Caine s oh not it isn't   Pamela Bordes, I thought it was Michael Caine's wife   Oh there's Michael Caine's wife, oh they do look similar  
Strewth!oh that's too easy isn't it?
Eleven eighty two, eighty  oh 
Why?
What the Christmas card one?
Mm.
It was Victorian times wasn't it?
Or make three different dates for it.
Oh yes.
Oh I'm not just a pretty face  I don't remember what dates it has, make up  three appropriate dates  So they're both coming at half past twelve, yeah?
Roughly  will they come in three different cars?
Next week's dress rehearsal.
Alright, we're going next week.
I'm not if I've still got this cold.
You won't have that cold next week.
It's not worth me going, I'll see how I feel, sit there snivelling always.
So it might be alright for Mum and Dad?
What?
What might be alright?
What might be alright?
Well if there's no rap, it might be alright for Mum and Dad.
There will be a rap.
There will be a rap?
Can I have one of these please?
Mum?
Yes.
Thank you .
There will be a rap?
Well what are they gonna cancel then?
Nothing  nothing
Come and watch.
So you gotta go next week for a dress rehearsal an if you want me to.
I don't need them for that.
Well what costume do you need for your dress rehearsal?
And when will they let you know whether it's cancelled or not?
er
What are you eating?
Woh!
Woh!ah  
Win a lot of toys?
No.
So who else is in it, apart from you?
I dunno, don't care, don't want to know!
Oh  take some Anadin, you'll feel better.
No I won't  I've gotta stay away from them.
Well we changed your group, by the way.
What?
Daddy said, you should be with Nanna and Adrian.
I was with Nanna and Adrian.
No Daddy said you should be with Michelle and Mutty.
Why do I  Nan and Adrian?
Well cos  erm some of the questions are sort of, English questions.
So what?
Well Michelle's not English.
Well Mutty is.
Yeah but Mutty's old  won't understand all the rapping.
Paulie looked at one of the questions!
He didn't.
alright I'll si 
Well you should go in the front room cos I've got the test papers to write.
No I'm here!
Where is my cardy?
Where's a pen?
It's ridiculous!
Cos I had a pen here.
There's one
Don't look at y , he's looking!
Oh he isn't!
Dad  I'm not looking.
Well go, you go over you can eat it over there 
go on.
I wanna sit on the couch , how can I 
No go on Paulie cos I can't
Why can't you do it in the front room then?
Eh?
Why do 
Cos there's a table here.
Is that, I will move on a table then!
Don't turn round  take something for your si cold.
Then I'd have to turn round wouldn't I?
But keep away from Pucker.
I might as well be like a  
Don't turn round.
Go to bed.
Goodnight.
Goodnight.
You'll enjoy it when they get here  it's cold isn't it?
No it's not .
Why do you pu , Michelle knows loads of things.
Yeah but she might not know English Christmas traditional questions.
Yeah.
If I were you I'd much rather be with Michelle and Mutty  Michelle's very clever.
Well exactly, so why does she need me?
Cos you might win  Ferrero Rocher don't want that one over there.
Just give me the  .
won't.
You forgot to put new tapes in the recorder last night.
What new tapes?
New batteries rather.
Did you put them in?
Yes  go and see on Teletext see if Gary Lineker's son's died.
Oh Ruth!
What gonna die?
Well no I mean I want to know.
Not gonna die that quickly.
Oh yes he is.
He's only got leukaemia.
He's only thirty one, Gary Lineker.
That's sick Mum!
You can't think like that  Has he died yet, sounds like you're waiting for him to die!
Paul, that is not what I meant!
Well it was so  said wasn't it.
See how he is, if you prefer   Wogan's been axed.
Oh yeah.
It lost half its ten million since it started  a speculator for BBC wants to buy This is Your Life and Thames  the seven o'clock with Wogan as host  it's a   
On 
This is Your Life?
a week   That's alright then, that means he alright, good   The Queen Mother fell over yesterday  got up again .
What what what what's in the house.
Say that again.
Queen Mother fell over 
What what what's in the house.
yesterday, how old is she, ninety  two?
Might be a bit older than that.
Ninety three?
Doesn't say  about time she retired  Mm mm ha  In our report, headed the burden slaves, on October the thirteenth we mistakenly  a picture of Vidalia Oberia in place of Mrs Filamenia Agassi  typical Daily Mail!
Why did it all go wrong?
Why did what go wrong?
Well
Is it hard to cut?
And for your next complaint!
Is it hard to cut?
Yes.
That one looks good  hey ya  pow  hey ya  .
Junior doctor held his  held his finger on a neck wound .
Urgh!
Er what happened?
Why did he have to keep it there for three hours?
Why couldn't they get 
I'm sure someone else could of dealt with it better  as a
No but I mean why did it take three hours to get him to surgery?
An awful 
What happened?
long time doesn't it, before anybody did anything   A junior doctor held his finger in a stabbed policeman's  neck wound
God!
for three hours with a sur as the surgeon battled to save his life   well I'd have thought they could have plugged wounds with something other than a finger!
Oh alright  don't keep talking about it please.
Urgh!
Ha  ooh just with  umbrella  stuck his finger right in.
This three inch wound, look at him, look at his scar!
Ah.
It's a take it away  it's making my eyes water.
Is the front door shut Paul?
Dunno.
There's some Vauxhall advert  the choice  buy a Nova with a good deal  or very little  doesn't make sense does it?
Kevin?
Costs 
What doesn't make sense?
Well it's another Vauxhall ad but it doesn't make sense  buy a Nova with a good deal  or very little.
No but do you know what it means?
A pun.
Well what does it mean?
It's a pun, they always have puns, I don't know what it means  yeah but one of those charts are wonky though  the other one   
In fact they are on all of them, looks silly doesn't it?
Are you giving me your cold?
Mm, hope so  but at least it won't be me  my selection   er er er er er errr  gonna let my  was there any post, Mum?
Paul this is Sunday, do we have post on a Sunday?
No, no, no.
Have you done all your homework, you can go and do half an hour's homework quite usefully couldn't you?
Yes.
Have you done it all?
Oh well done.
Skilful Joe.
Hardly.
Got to have that    Dils doo dee doo doo doo  I'll go and change   I'm gonna let my hair go down  am I not wearing a football shirt?
I hope not.
Can I change into it in the evening?
Oh  yeah  because this looks cool  total  just mod cons Mum  Bang!
So what would you rather me wear, this or that white shirt thing?
That'll do.
What this?
It's better than the red and blue one   Half of primary pupils will not work on their own  traditional teaching is best  ten year study shows  modern class, failing children .
Suppose su some of these questions you'll remember won't you?
da da da da da now now now now now now
Well they've all played  as well so they might remember.
you gotta love my people  now .
taking English Grammar at best, taught to the whole class   thank you  I think I'll cut that out and take that in.
We need some tonic water Kevin, is that in the garage?
Mhm.
Could make some out of Soda Stream if you're desperate.
Oh I think we will make it out of Soda Stream to begin with  do you want to make a bottle Paul?
Sure   Don't na na na  
Get the middle size bottle, make a middle size bottle full of
We haven't got a middle size bottle.
Well look harder.
We haven't.
Well what's happened to them?
Oh hang on  this will be it.
Paul try just s middle
Not eh!
I'm not looking, I'm not looking  oh put it away Dad!
Oh  knowing your Dad, doing on the last minute!
I know  we should be
Well where have the middle sized Soda Stream bottle gone?
I'm not allowed to look anyway.
Well make the little one Paul.
Could at least put something over it!
Ah here it is  hang on a second while I rinse it out.
You're not telling answer  Got the bottles of Coke out yet?
Only one bottle.
Only one bottle of Coke out there.
Yeah.
You got any share money hanging over you still or have you paid everything?
Well it depends if I get these shares I bought yesterday  or not.
What shares you bought yesterday?
British Telecom.
I told you!
I did, I did, I've gotta go and get my British Telecom money !
You said oh yes.
What you said was  I am going to pay in these various cheques and if there's a big queue  I'll come straight out 
No, no, no 
and I said why should there be a big queue and you said because cos it's a B T share offer.
Yes  no I said  I'm getting my B T's in  offer in  haven't got them.
off of B T.
Well when I went past Britannia to see if you were there, there was nobody in it.
Yeah 
Not got Coke.
Halifax was out the window, yes 
Mm  there was nobody in there
there was about 
So if I meet a big queue 
I dunno it was about to shut wasn't it at the same time and it  it was like  well it's worth gonna get them.
I must have missed you, cos if I went  past Britannia, and I thought ooh they'll probably still be in there  
Technically I suppose 
if you get inside the shop before the time closes they they're on a bet
They all stand by the door don't they?
Just but, once you as you long as you got in before twelve o'clock
Yeah you'd be alright  I think it might be twelve thirty round about twelve fifteen, Britannia isn't it?
Anyway it's
Twelve o'clock, Britannia.
But he looked across to us and saw us and then he really cheesed off with me we he di he virtually sat  
Well that's why you went to Britannia's innit, isn't it?
Okay?
We had to put our  three hundred and twenty pounds.
We haven't got three hundred and twenty pounds.
I hope you'll save that two hundred for your Mum's golden wedding
Ah.
booze  I am cold.
Mum?
Yeah.
Is it the one of the right or the left or one that's got his finger in.
Paul, the one on the left is Kenneth Baker  the one on the right is a policeman  neither of those is a junior doctor.
Sorry.
Not worthy of a photograph I shouldn't think  There's the Queen Mother again, doesn't say how old she is  There is the picture of the doctor, mind you he doesn't look like a junior doctor, he's Pakistani  and he looks about fifty!
Mr Ujam
Ooh Ujam, Ujam, Ujam  look at this Mum.
What's this?
The florists were alright.
Look at these three.
Nice flowers.
A 
So it is.
He's seen the light.
Sheila's buying an Amiga.
Sheila who?
How many Sheilas do you know?
What this Christmas?
Sheila   Sheila 
Sheila .
When?
Oh no!
This is ridiculous!
Great, no way  unbelievable!
I'm not swapping anything with her   they ended up bringing back my games !
We get one, oh I must get one as well.
When they getting them?
She pro they buying it as a joint family present this year.
Oh.
Then each child's only allowed ten pounds worth of presents apart from that  you look dreadful!
Why don't you go and lie down for half an hour?
Don't believe this!
Take some Anadin.
Why them !
They got 
Paul there's probably a million Amigas in the country.
Is that why you   erm  that's quite   only not .
about that, I think you've got a totally illiterate person, no doubt Actually she said  nine tenths certain going to get an Amiga but they might get an Atari.
Well Atari's no good  they're games 
It's not a computer.
They only want it for games do they?
No  well there's all different Ataris aren't there?
Oh yeah, is that right Paulie?
Yeah.
These are supposed  on the side don't you?
No  three hundred.
Well that's cheaper.
Oh, is it?
What 
Pauly showed me this this thing, the game thing for Atari where you li disk pack  what's it called Paulie?
What?
Ray's getting.
Oh that's not Atari, that's Sega.
Sega.
Sega Megadrive.
Megadrive.
Yeah.
It's got a
They have to   the Atari, right  you load this in a word processing  in a  path  games are  venture and  the sound is much better than Amiga  on the Amiga  er the graphics are better on the Amiga  and but  the Atari ST is slightly easier to program.
What is the point of mouse ?
Makes it  pretty it  improves it's just a mou , you know mouse mat you got them at school.
Yeah but what is the point of it?
How do you know I've got mouse mays at school?
Yes you have, you know what you run your mouses along!
I haven't got one.
You haven't got one  y know, quite cheap just mats that they  they  ah I've got forgotten what the word is for it  they make the mouse  improves the performance of the mouse  see 
Do 
the ball at the bottom, the rolly ball as it picks it up easier  stops them, you don't scratch the bottom of it.
Ah.
How do we know which is for tea and which isn't?
You can eat anything there for lunch and I'm going to put sandwiches and cake out for tea.
Where you doing, where are the sandwiches?
I haven't made them yet, I'll be making them this afternoon, yet more work to do  I can't really make them now.
Why not?
Oh!
With twenty five  we're likely to die falling off a ladder than you are to die from AIDS .
Having been up a ladder, only I could see how easy it is, you could fall off a ladder as simply as anything.
Yep.
Excuse me.
What .
I hope the tape picked that up Dad.
Yes I'm sure it probably did  I just thought Paul, go to the corner of the front room Paul  and take something for that.
I'll take another sausage  wow!
Don't take one with bacon round it.
It's much more warmer in there.
That lounge.
Did you make this?
No.
Oh.
Why do I only I allowed to have your cold?
Erm, you'd better keep away from Papa.
Can't keep away from everybody.
Don't breathe over them and don't make it so obvious.
What else am I supposed to do?
Right, let's try the crossword,fish of carp family,don't know,middle in a cracker,
Portuguese enclave in China , Daddy will know that.
Pardon?
Portuguese enclave in China, begins with M 
Er  oh yes Macau.
How many letters has that carp one got?
Five  Ancient models 
plaice 
of a Spanish Peninsula   the young eel is an alba  plaice, Paul has not got five letters.
Yes it has, no it hasn't.
Begins with T, I expect it's  tench 
trout  trout.
well I think tench and carp are the same family  kind of orange   navel  naval, navel  navel King Tyle who assisted Solomon in the building of the temple 
King Tyle 
Doubt it.
Religion revealed through Mohammed.
Er Islam.
Oh thank you Paul.
That's not ..
I think it's hair  what's the ancient name for the Spanish Peninsula
The border.
Any letters?
yeah it ends in I A, and it might begin with O  it begins with a vowel  kind a it's a lu the Russian walk out  it's got a Z in it.
Oh that's Agaza Agat 
No something U something Z something something
Something U  mm
Not bolshoi is it, how do you spell Macau?
M A C A U.
O?
I thought it was M A C A U, Macau.
I thought it M A C A W.
Oh no.
You would .
Yes it might  I've seen it  spelt both ways.
Well maybe no it cos it'd be 
Nothing  
bolshoi if it was O.
It's W 
Yeah bolshoi's right  so which one is it then?
O.
Mm  I've seen it a  U as well I must admit.
I thought it was
Right 
holiday 
you done it.
the something something   meetings of spiritualistic phenomena   seance.
Yo 
Ooh Dad give us a bit.
Exam papers  turn over your papers now  do not look  can't start yet.
Read them out Mum  I can't get them easily.
Bird, female of the ruff style of architecture prominent during the reign of Louis the f fifteenth .
How, what word has it got?
Nothing   words of songs , lyrics?
Birthplace of Saint Theresa.
Rome
County in Eire .
Cork.
Cle something.
Cle r 
Scrooge's late partner , Marley
I'll go and play that .
one of the gospels , Mark?
Bird, female of the ruff , I think it's a grouse   nest of a bird of prey 
Hawk, falcon
no, nest,one who manages another's business  agent 
Oh I know that er  a ki kirey isn't it  e earring
so it's not a rouse  what is a bird, female, oh it's a reath the American buffalo 
Bison  bison.
Very good
What a county in Eire beginning with C L  cl 
Clare 
Clare, County Clare.
Look it up.
style of  architecture 
Done it.
with Cocoa   I've done it.
What that say again?
Style of architecture with cocoa.
Oh.
What is name of it?
of the largest of the continent   must be Africa but it doesn't fit.
Asia.
Oh Asia the largest continent   birthplace of Saint Theresa 
Erm
India
Syria.
doesn't fit  where's Mother There Saint Theresa born?
Not Mo 
Syria.
not Mother Theresa.
No, Saint Theresa.
It is India innit?
Don't fit  gotta be something I something A
Something I something A
Something something I something A
Shakespeare comedy , the  mister of something
Temptress.
Is it?
Vinchenti Blasgo something writer of the four    Sailor, not an officer  .
Tree with shrub with white or yellow flowers   
Daffodil
No  right I've done all I can, you can finish it off.
I'm still cold!
Okay   
Well you can do it.
We'll get hot.
Vincent Blasgo what Dad?
Vi Vincent Vasco de Gama 
No!
Blasgo!
He wrote the Four 
He wrote the Four Gentlemen and a   
something B something N something 
Ah these are disgusting!
I'm hungry.
those
Take them ou out of circulation then if they're disgusting.
What?
Ah people might like them.
Get away!
Urgh they're the ones that smell like  bad fish!
You've had it before.
You're not wrong  no I've done some before, urgh!
Pu clean them away, people won't like them!
Yeah a lot of people will  your Mum might  Nigel Kennedy, look at the Aston Villa club shots.
Oh yeah.
Football is the unifying part of my life, it is of equal importance to the music 
He'll grow out of that one day.
I love anything, claret and bu blue   he's a Senior Vice President of the club  and he's got Aston Villa boxer shorts and Aston Villa pyjamas  on one visit 
to the shop he spent four hundred pounds.
What?
Nigel Kennedy's been known to spend more than an hour in the shop after a game, on one visit he spent four hundred pounds.
The shop sold Aston Villa t-shirts, sweatshirts and slippers to bikes, Nigel has examples of most.
It's got a bit serious he admits, I've got the logo on my   .
My girlfriend's a Villa fan but isn't always happy about it especially when I suggested painting the bedroom  claret and blue .
His violin case which houses the seventeen thirty f 
You're really clo clobbered with that though, it really smells like bad feet  you smell like you haven't washed your feet  I think you better clean your teeth  where are those crisps  take them away.
They're disgusting!
No Dad.
That's two you've eaten now 
They're  
that's the first thing someone's gonna think  is that her feet smell!
They won't think that 
Kevin 
you've eaten some cheese crisps.
there's two of those, so throw them both away  there's two of them.
It really smells like I haven't been near a bath for a month.
What's so bad?
Wooh!
They must be the ones that Mum had been eating when you  I came in.
Can I just have a smell?
You I haven't, I just opened them.
I can't smell anything  
Right when you eat them?
When you bite them  it smells like
Put bigger ones 
in there.
Parmesan cheese.
Well that's alright  there they are.
They don't they don't smell so bad  compared with the other ones  do you want one Dad?
Nope  oh they're delicious!
No break them  Right you want me to go and get the other drink in now, you say?
Yep.
Where's Paulie's big blow up straw, the copying  was it, was it over here?
Behind the chair.
Which chair?
That one?
Ooh!
Yeah.
Oh wah  yo do do do do do do .
I'm so cold.
Bye Dad, gotta go, see you later.
These Paul I'm supposed to be writing all .
That was   these Twiglets are stale as old Harry.
Twiglets?
Mm.
Take some Anadin Paul  here's a couple of Anadin  feel better, honest  Paul.
Alright  no not Anadin.
Why?
They make me sick.
Oh what?
Oh well, what else you got?
Paracetamol.
Let's have a look  not solubles    you've got some     Hang on   just gonna   there's one.
It's all football  where's that one then?
That's all I got.
Hello 
Hello 
all you got
Mm.
That's good.
Ordinary Anadin won't make you sick.
Tip it in whole   Only one  
They're gonna be late now because we insisted on them all coming.
Like that.
Say half twelve bomb or something.
So when's this Wogan thing packing up then, do you know?
Does say, doesn't it  forgotten where the  was.
somebody snow, I'd really like it.
Boursin.
I can't see them letting Wogan 
Boursin 
go though can you?
They'll do 
It can last for so long people  
do something else.
the mind boggles.
What do you want me to do with this?
Put it on the hall stand please.
Oh is it, is it one of 
after two  at tea time.
Put that heater on then would you  that one on for a while just before they come.
besides the fact that I've got a headache.
So will our quiz done  have you a got a pad or something?
Yes your father's got a plan.
Dad put me with 
After lunch.
We'll eat 
After 
fairly soon 
Mm.
We'll eat stra virtually fairly soon  and then let them have a look at them.
After everybody drinks when they first come in  yeah?
Mhm.
No le let them have sort of like a half an hour talk before you announce the quiz straight after that  let all their stomachs go down and then sort of get
If we let we can 
No 
judge that Paul.
wait forty five minutes cos then you wanna catch all their er  speaking don't you on a tape?
Well we'll see.
So   what these these are new aren't they?
Mm  I don't use them every day because they began to fray.
Well where are they?
Don't 
Yeah that guy's chest looks   what he's been through.
Oh what yeah, horrid innit?
Like a rag doll.
If you think another person did that to him.
No  you don't do on purposely do those  beautiful cuts like that across there  they did that 
What?
The doctors did all that  all he had was  in the leg.
No but someone had a crack at him.
The doctor, yeah  yeah.
Don't get people thrashing people     
Isn't that awful about Stoke on Trent's garden thing?
What?
That  that was before and look at it now.
What happened to it?
Been allowed to
don't look very good  before now.
Where were those  taken?
There.
Yeah.
Shall I move these spirits and video star out the way then?
Yep  put it them by the videos  on one of the shelves.
What's this video doing here?
I dunno  probably my husband.
Are you gonna want to record anything tonight?
Erm  dunno  go and look and see what's on telly tonight.
Did you bring your tape in Dad?
Don't record on that  car rally one, that's Trevor's.
Hasn't he taken ?
No.
What is it here for?
Dad?
Daddy's going to watch it.
You put Lombar Lombard R A C rally  on  
Rubbishy magazine.
That's a pretzel glass isn't it?
Mr Pickford
That's what well Kevin gave me that slip .
Kevin why did you give Michelle that glass cos I didn't wash those glasses, I didn't wash those glasses.
Oh dear  ah ah ah ah
was such a
ah ah ah ah and there was a piece of  metal in it !
Piece of metal in it.
Oh that's the one where you put the  when it was being done.
checking that !
Oh yeah  
That's on my feet.
How did you take the ?
Well he gave me the  !
Oh dear !
What made you think that?
Oh maybe he liked the  so much   .
Do you want some more of this,?
No 
No.
thanks.
So you thought yo you ate frogs legs?
Have you tried the
Did you Kev ?
seafood one?
Lovely shrimps in it.
I thought we were leaving Bill at home.
Did you he did you see that 
Does anybody want a drink top up?
programme last night about 
Yes please, yeah 
this er
French firm?
Vodka 
about the French  what did they do 
with the other half  of the story !
Want a drink?
Michael 
Can I have a Coke please?
I might have 
Yep 
the fish, I think, do you think?
Yep in a minute 
Yes.
You okay there?
Are you gonna have some?
Yes alright, I'll have some.
Pet don't look so serious.
Sorry?
That would of made a good conversation, why did you give Michelle the  glass?
You're standing on my chair.
I think it's very rude of her 
Move!
given me a dirty glass.
Sorry am I a  
Oh sorry  oh don't sit on it!
Like the shoes Paul.
I think you've caught him out .
Oh yes.
I think that  taking the mickey out of them.
Will it come out   .
No sometimes it sticks to you.
Go round the sitting room with it on your feet!
You know that list of flowers
Accurate 
Has it 
yes.
I've never seen it flower
If it  
I'm not very good at them  Mum gave me that one it's been in quite good condition but 
It has to be watered, water all the time.
I mean look I've killed it  
Where did you get your Christmas cactus?
Mm  from Croydon 
Had a 
Nice one.
a knot she had a  she had one  is it Papyras you call it don't you.
Umbrella plant we call them.
Oh  Pap Papyras 
Why?
That's the word.
I think the Egyptian used to use that to write tha to write on.
Oh.
Mum's just telling me about her erm 
Like a quill 
Well I erm 
thing?
this 
Michelle have you got another dirty glass you want to replace 
from Beatons, Safeways , no thanks.
Yes  I would no , I'd like another dirty drink  
Enjoyed that one so much !
Dad, Dad I'll put all after I've done one side of this we'll do the quiz then.
Sad about er Gary Lineker's baby.
Alright yeah.
Yes 
Cheers.
Fine
It did work.
Same drink Michelle?
Only little children  
Then what?
Yes .
Get them in.
That's what I wanted to take the little  
Strange thing is this is why he's never  because that home environment 
It's very nice.
Do you know what my
er 
mother does she was gonna let her 
he regrets 
know her net curtains are all along her window, he had them in the front of the house and oh
because he  
down their  very advanced  
Paul!
One of these ones?
Really huge 
I'm I'm  silver, I'm not very good 
Thank you 
at drawing.
Isn't it a shame Mum about Gary Lineker's baby.
Oh yes.
Yeah very sad.
But if I was you know you're not  
No you can't  
Let me out!
cos he's friendly with Jose Carreras, the Barcelonian
And and also with Botham, cos Botham does that with do that walk for the er 
Mm th that w one wonders, you see, because he  he had a lot to do with Jose Carreras when he was ill and you wo 
Mum,
cos there is a school of thought that they can be a virus that starts it 
Mm.
He's going to do another run, Ian Botham for leukaemia 
Mm.
research.
Must have been dreadful that though  
But it only strikes on two babies a year, two babies in England 
He does  you know  
Couldn't it be helped?
Mm.
So sad.
But they say e even if he came out very 
prognosis though 
su successfully it'd be five years 
I would of thought so, hope so.
he's clear.
Yes but the prognosis of a baby at that age isn't good.
They don't?
No.
Look at the Mountbatten's little girl.
Yes but she didn't have leukaemia so quickly.
Oh did she?
Oh I thought  
Excuse me  just because the tape's on there's no need for you to use big words like prognosis.
Yeah.
Is it on, this?
Yeah.
How do you know it isn't on?
No it's not on at the moment, cos Paul 
No.
turned it off.
I didn't.
Have you turned it on?
Now it's made it all go quiet hasn't it 
Yeah.
eh?
I ain't gone quiet  
Oh I  
Let me take those  
washing up this morning  washing up 
Are you sure you're alright, he said I just said oh.
er oh just a little bit.
No I am 
Just talking about the tea room.
Yeah  actually he was supposed to say to Jeff  
Say about that 
there was this  job.
You won't now because they got the hospital to build on.
Doesn't really take  
Wednesday nights.
They're  I've never seen anything in that bowl.
Do you want another  honey?
That's Appletise 
Oh er anything  what this one here?
Yeah but wasn't it 
We've got  their Mum gave us a French dictionary, but my  is the  in French  now they can't get      The number of English words there are in there it's
So  get learning 
amazing 
yeah but  
the thing is actually giving up 
Happy   
They are really English words  they erm  I can't think of something now but I mean
I bet I could 
The only one I can think of is 
Oh yes, did that at the beginning  for for a long time.
For a fortnight.
You don't have to play for a fortnight, do you?
Mm I think cousin I do  I will say cousin actually, it's all same.
We'll   two.
There are quite a few cos I did that in my Norman project.
Did you hear about  say 
The English is the same isn't it?
ne next week  on Sunday, the Danish Embassy
Oh?
Pu our own  Putney has been awarded the medal of honour, sixth highest medal of honour  for erm  services to the Danish industry and he's coming over and they're having a  a caviar and champagne reception at the Danish Embassy and now the Queen of Denmark  Queen Margarite is coming over.
Ooh 
I don't read Turkish.
Ooh I say yeah.
They are all invited.
They were going out for a west end  meal in the evening.
That'd be nice  oh lovely.
But Karen thinks 
when was that?
Next, not this Monday, next Monday.
Karen thinks we'll all be three black crows we've all got black.
Yeah we're all wearing black!
very funny !
If in doubt, wear black.
Well Cynthia went somewhere the other day and there were so many pe people in black it was like a doomsday 
It's come back again, hasn't it?
Yes.
Why is that then?
Why?
You've got black on, but this time you wear it I mean it's  
Purple took over for a while, ha.
Mm.
My , it's so weird now, I'm borrowing erm  she's got a a  a blue, no it's not  a blue plaid  it's not really a scarf, it's bigger than that 
Throw over.
yeah,
Like a wrap thing.
which she got from Ireland 
Don't know about this.
her Mum bought it for her  er pure wool 
over there 
it's electric blue, so I've got to wear the  with.
Oh I say  
Oh and that's gonna be
But when I take, I can't wear that in the embassy because it will be too hot.
Oh yes I know Mark.
yesterday, cos it laid on its fluff on you.
See 
it's not smooth, it's not that  I don't think it does.
The car's ours.
I mean it's
Does Mum  
I quite like actually it does
it's really funny  I just when I wanna be simple   it's just like I'm gonna break down in front of a man  yeah  and they just got, cos they're mean 
Her mother gave it to her when she went over there 
Yes.
a bright blue and er  I bought that 
Really.
on the M forty five.
Mm.
And Adrian bought me for my birthday erm 
earrings the   so I'm going to wear a pearl necklace and pearl earrings on 
We caught all different perch out there  didn't we?
But when you get  er to a certain I think you do tend to find a lot of the dressier clothes are in black.
Mm.
Yeah but you're not at that certain age?
Yes  I agree 
No.
No matter, what I mean why we all seem to wearing black, because they're 
at school 
But only when you go in the shop, I find the colours this year are rubbish 
empty!
and they  
they couldn't really  have something 
Brown ale or 
I'll finally accept it,i the thing she is she got a green velvet suit from Ron   and the lady said to her   she said well will you be in Hello,i she said I thought we'll be in Packaging News!
A hundred and fifty people have been invited, but I don't know if all will be coming.
I've just realised that the be every time I have an occasion
Yeah  
I go green don't I?
And if it's green  
One bottle over.
It's the colour of hope.
Is it?
It's warm.
Yeah it's the colour of love.
Well my  green oh and in French it's the colour of hope, promise?
My  
Exactly.
Our bridesmaids
And you.
wore green velvet didn't they Mum?
Pardon?
Adrian and I had  bridesmaids in green velvet 
green velvet 
do you remember you said how unlucky it was?
Mm.
In England green is supposed to be an unlucky colour.
Really?
Oh.
Mm.
Oh dear
And then
everything   already 
and then, also we got married in May, and they say marry in May, rue the day, so
Mm, or going to Paris on the honeymoon!
yes.
That's the time I was married in May, too.
Paul.
There we are Mum.
Yeah.
Mm, thank you.
Could I have  
Mum you can't get that round here.
I will, I'm just looking for the
What do you want?
earrings.
Yes I will.
These are so delicious 
aren't they?
Oh to go with your dress 
dress yes.
Mm  mm  very nice 
sit there?
people sit there gambling 
No 
No.
I'm not.
How they put the big plastic things 
Mm 
that hold them.
But I don't know if they will be too heavy for your ear lobes.
I'll have a go anyway see 
The everlasting twenty pound note.
Shame  got it fixed!
You know complete small ear lobe.
No here,do it  these are worth letting go
and erm  I paid for them dearly  for piercing for me
and er I think he was frightened of  a little bit too far on the edge I think.
Mm.
Choose another one  
No I can't do that 
now so I can't certainly
Mm.
Cos that's one lower still 
Well no 
Well they 
they might sometimes  I had mine done to me 
Definitely   close it right up.
when he 
Oh.
They couldn't 
Nancy was telling me that he had  loads of 
Mine  
complaints 
I was playing with the dog a 
Well I didn't have any   
No 
just periodically  
I 
So we take her onto the 
We had to pay for the doctor.
It didn't hurt, but then they  don't they?
Don't know how he does 
Yep 
them.
By the time you get an  you know, Michael will be allowed to have his  
Plenty of room, it is a big room  
Yeah.
I'm clo that's closing up  it's closed up that one  you know, where we got it.
You know what it is, we disguise all our  don't we?
Mm.
Have you just heard?
No 
Right.
Go and sit over there.
You're all in then  
Dad!
stay there love.
Oh.
Is he in middle again 
What does that family look like?
Have a bit of the dirge.
Doo do do do .
Mum is that alright  
Mm  Is that because the hose 
Then he'll be walking in with this quiz an 
Yes.
What is this quiz we're gonna have then?
Ooh it's a big quiz, one of 
I'll  
Following in my Dad's footsteps.
Daddy spent all day  and scribbling.
Yeah everyone's gotta play  
They're getting very popular those square bags aren't they Joy?
any paper.
It's funny you should say 
Very popular they get
we both had the same
Mum!
about it  and you know how we weren't very, cos everybody said oh we'd like one of those, cos they're so easy.
Mm yeah.
And now poor Michael couldn't find  one !
Yeah.
Rat fink!
and imagine we were  
Somebody told us in the market, but we never get to the market, do we?
I don't care 
No.
Yeah in the market, but er  in Red Parks they're in front of the  exit  
like that, I mean they were so easy .
aren't they?
Oh!
Well can you imagine any more than English ones.
What was the little dog you had?
He's not  any work.
Yes.
I always remember  
After my old one.
we all had the naughties, used to say.
and now when you got this   
Once you get out of car and I thought it was a dog that she had,bu didn't have, she didn't have a dachshund he had a little 
No  she had, she had corgis.
Woof, woof, woof, woof.
Michael,
No I'll get it.
Whose is that one?
Andrew's possible but that won't  
Ah  right 
I don't want him to stop until his party.
You've got your new shoes on Mum, or those  
Yeah 
Yep.
They're nice.
Ha ha ha.
Mm.
Good innit  that's outrageous, that is!
There   
Is it slanderous or libel 
Read it outside, the inside first, I think  read 
Yeah.
the outside first.
has written a slanderous poem 
.
I have to be very careful though, seeing that his birthday's the same day  
Yeah, yeah 
Karen why aren't you opening yours?
I've opened mine.
Oh you've opened them all
You didn't tell me what you got.
Shall I 
She didn't show me what you got, why should show you!
Oh.
But she had money from  and I gave her 
some money
Oh I see 
and a  for you 
Aha.
too.
Thank you.
Don't you worry about that, Ruthie's the hostess.
Oh yeah 
Ooh!
I think I'll be coming 
Right 
from over here.
Let's see that one.
.
Michelle  really!
Ooh dear 
Right we can all throw that in bin.
Blue what?
Course you can't go round, you gotta do double  with my   .
I can't guarantee it works like clockwork.
Ha ha ha
Hopes he finds 
Ruth and I are trying to get these done   especially when that ship went up  you looked like the Keystone Cops, didn't I, we went one back in there!
I'm afraid I  I went one when the li when the allotment caught fire.
Cos cos  you were pale.
I'd of never  never got that hose out without it would I, now?
No  there's some very  in that bag.
I we I think the fire fighters used  the white skirt tied the way it wa on my shoe
Tried to hold it to it.
I was s dirty, mud all up my leg.
Trying to hold the trees together 
All the  splashing over me!
Well you had to hold it together 
I
Do you watch  that er that London's Burning?
Oh yes, he finds her at erm 
Do you watch that, yeah 
Yeah.
Do you get it last week   
Yeah 
Yes 
Bailey
Bailey
saw the cards.
He's  dodgy 
I like him  it's 
Good you can find, ah, he loves her.
a twist  
They didn't think, didn't think he could wait a week,
One  
At least where he 
Didn't watch variety stop?
No.
He looked quite good, didn't he?
Yeah.
Yes, well it always is.
good 
Mm.
.
Oh have you seen that face lift job he wants?
No it's over.
It's well out of order!
Twenty to eleven.
I don't know.
Yes it is  Now when he was at school 
No  but I like it back.
Yes well and I didn't like it better either.
You seen that Andy?
What?
This face lift jobby.
Yeah I know.
And
You could  
your one.
all because they have to be read, I  
Yes 
That  
What is yours 
Michael's really tired.
I'm alright.
.
Lovely  aren't they?
Yes 
Oh no.
and I thought that  you wanted that 
Yes 
didn't you?
very good.
Mm.
Shall I hit him!
You won't understand it Paul, it's confidential.
No  not my hands please  Mm.
Boys these days!
I'll tape it up.
No, no, no, no you'll muck up everything.
No.
ha.
It's a do-it-yourself pea shooter here.
Where's it gone?
Eric  in your bag.
I'm chair listener  alright 
Yeah 
Alright Kev?
You can sort out 
Oh yeah, Paul 
What earrings this, is it Nanny's?
What  
I don't know who's that is.
the green earrings are mine,
Dad 
and the then you can borrow or a 
I've found the green earrings.
erm
Do you see that one?
Wendy said I could borrow her dress.
Are those your, oh yes of course it is.
And they come back 
She's got a dress a green dress for her for Golden Wedding Anniversary.
The Sunday after  
Just look.
Are you gonna leave the tape on?
Ah  
Put the tape on.
Yes 
No don't worry green's,for love.
Paulie put that other tape  
Is it?
I'm learning, how to maybe read the stars,.
That's right.
Her longs are what?
Are long and tiddly!
Yes.
Ah  lovely    
yes  so
But it's just uncanny I'd suddenly I keep picking green for occasions.
Well Mutty had a green 
Well so do I, I wear it for 
dress 
school every day.
for her Silver Wedding celebration.
I  Paul's for a lot of green and he's a
Yeah.
Paul's now   
then she's going to
Maybe get so lucky.
Ooh!
Maybe us all thinking that it's sort of not quite smart and it's  
It's a toilet set innit?
You're cheap!
She has to live like saint.
I'd rather do it myself.
No that bats   Ooh look, I've got my ears caught  
You'll come back next year and it'll still be in the box.
Adrian will have to fix 
No.
fix it up then, cos it, or Andy cos they did a   
Ooh very useful, yeah.
Andy didn't mind.
Hose round corners.
He's got press ups.
Why haven't you taken it all out of the box.
I 
He's gonna make it.
Show it everybody.
He's gonna put it together now.
oh.
Yes, yes.
Oh go on.
I'll get it all right now 
He's going to put it on 
you gotta
Now you're a five star  
No what you are supposed to do is , this is one I made earlier!
I'm the one who comes last,looking at the other people.
We noticed that, it's all  
Yeah it's in a  
Oh hurry up, number three!
Can't help that.
Ah this is useless!
If you turn the tape on now you hear all the best murmurs.
I had to get Adrian to do it.
Yes   I'm shoving more 
Course, then there's that bit, alright.
And then  the nose bit.
He's bunging them off.
And there's no , oh yes there is.
In the side.
Right, all those he promised.
It's up to you though 
Oh is it?
It is recording.
I know it is but don't play around with that!
You'll stop the sound .
Cream's on the table.
Ladies and Gentleman, it's  
You said that it weren't on anyway.
I know.
So no one thinks it's on.
They know  
anyway.
Oh.
Doesn't use the instructions then anyway.
Put the mike on.
last word  then after half an hour 
He told us off for not taking him  there 
Then you
You'd of looked even funnier next to the  six year old !
Paul looked funny enough.
That 
Well I wondered if he'd wa he'd gone out on the Nottingham  cos I wondered what would happen to the mascot  was he shot the mascot, after the the game?
Well I i they had the mascot from the  it would have only gone out on their home territory.
Quartered yeah  yeah.
Hung, drawn and quartered.
Well I
I I said to the chap  he said did you have a good day, this little  guy sitting next to me he answered yeah, good day   yes did you see us?
I said, yes we saw you.
We saw you but did you have to come  running over 
Green coat.
waving to the crowd!
Apparently some football teams won't let the fathers on the pitch.
What did Nottingham Forest beat you?
If you do it for our side
Five one
they won't let the players .
Mum, can we get on?
Yes  well
Lucky old 
But is it really ?
They try and take photographs of him .
Yes 
We had to take the photographs, he had to go on the pitch, didn't he?
Well I first had to go down and ask.
When you think those days of 
Did you get to wear your football shirt as well?
No I went in  
he did ask, didn't you?
Yeah.
Oh you do meals, gonna have some  don't you?
In the end people said actually it wouldn't be worth entering, yet  
What we do is I'll go in and  video 
Eh?
When they  
I bought, in the end  to drive.
Let me get behind furniture  
Well if Liverpool win 
People   who argue that in the league the lower the  that's forty pounds, they must in  
What about the league then?
Eh?
Until he comes back from   and that 
Well that's because I hadn't been in there and you can be 
Yeah and you 
Yes  I'd be sitting on it by now.
Yep I'm finished, thank you very much.
Oh dear!
And the 
Yeah.
Or  motoring .
Wouldn't mind about the , when yo , you know when you hear about being in  it's huge  try and gore him  each player so they  
What's this photographs of it?
I'm not  
Which is actually, that's a chemical thing, isn't it, that's the E E C 
Michael.
isn't it  
What's the oldest  
label every chemical .
Has he got that, oh that's quite nice 
Has, has has, has 
has, has, has,
You got any spare batteries ?
I dunno  there might be some  then I can have one.
Okay, is it alright to slow it right down .
Oh yes, but the actual, no  
How do you know if they're working, how?
Well yeah, might have.
Yeah it's go still working.
What the tall thin ones?
Open i open thing.
Don't try and take a photograph.
You open the  lens cap.
Now you try and take one  you'll have to get  
Just  
You're posing  natural, natural 
who's camera is it, Paul?
Why isn't it working?
Well hasn't it got a tall thin flash?
Yeah.
working 
Well we've got 
flash.
we've got lots of batteries  Paul, though 
And it won't work if you put the battery in there!
They'll have, they'll have  
Well done 
Did you see B and Q
Pardon?
Did you see B and Q have got a  recently now?
Ah?
B and Q.
Have they?
And they Eric   so cheap.
Always so cheap  Always buy your  in B and Q.
Oh yeah.
Oh look.
I said I will wait  
B and Q  
Eric  Eric.
We've tried this one here.
Oh dear, oh dear.
Not such a good idea!
Little tiny ones  we'd stay and we'd replace them.
Yeah but 
I'm talking about the loose ends.
Kevin.
They've lasted all this time.
good idea 
Must do that 
must do that.
How old is ?
I dunno  Paul  Paulie  Paulie  got any patches like that?
No look look, yeah let's listen.
I will.
where is the sharp  ah  to make .
Two of them?
You say I 
He bought  to go out.
Yes.
Sam's own school  really 
Too up to go down and too low to come up.
as well.
Er 
Granddad 
what is it?
says he  so I don't think he was being very practical 
Mm.
Must say 
Mhm mm mm mm mm mm mm .
I think 
You know what to do with these, don't you?
Do I?
Yes, we can hope, can manage that, yeah.
Ha!
I'd laugh if he said yes without !
We'd have a look   You sure you can?
Do you want it on the wall or what?
Sit on that.
Do you want it on the wall or free standing?
We're putting them up, yes  I can do that.
On the wall.
Er on the , they're cracking up and I'll be   
Kevin I don't think I'll have it as whirly as that.
It is innit?
And then when we   
That's what you've got, is okay.
erm  yeah.
They're getting me a hose for Christmas.
and put 
Well that is a good idea.
Just as well 
a fla a flat one?
Yeah, we're gonna have a flat one.
Ha ha  oh go on  
Oh no, it's just remembering without the words.
Oh go on he says that cos he knows he's got the card.
Oh.
So I don't know if I can get a .
Is it a  then?
No.
It's their kitchen that  
It looked quite  
That's right, you get it on there surely?
cos they were in 
No they put that, put that
a long erm  a  
Adrian's is on the wall too.
thin looking  scissors
Well that's a train  
anything else you think we might know,upside down?
While they're finishing   aren't you?
I don't know  personally 
Yeah like they got little metal plates 
and they apparently they look very    to the wall.
Ah they won't 
But they can take it off the wall.
Oh I see  oh that me that means it's working okay.
Fine, is it alright now?
Yeah.
How much do I owe you for, how much are they Ruth?
Oh I don't know where it came from it's been a long time .
Don't throw those away.
If they were new they'd be a in a packet.
Yeah.
We've fumigated them.
Ooh mind the beer!
Is it working now?
Yeah.
Don't all look at me, you're supposed to be going on talking!
Should be perfectly natural.
I always sound like that.
It's very true  
Straight in front of a map and you go urgh!
then do something and urgh!
Ah!
He don't get any better does he Joy?
Yeah.
Don't get any better.
You  ooh ooh!
Well do you think we can have our pudding now?
Yes.
Oh yes.
Yeah 
Ooh I need spoons.
Hurry up, you're too hot.
I don't need a box, oh only so you can break it and then take it back.
Who's that ?
That's 
Actually puddings  
Oh yes,
can you handle that?
Oh yes that's  piece of a handle.
The pudding is erm  hot  Jam roly poly or  and I used to say  he's really going down it 
On the axles weren't you
That goes on the axle, I've found that out.
Why's there a bit left over?
Oh that's the   ah?
Oh I'm pleased about that.
It's alright, I remember now, it goes
Well why don't you do it down here?
It's a funny wheel that   funny wheel for it.
Yeah.
yes.
Do it in there somewhere  like that  
That's right, we did actually yo you and your son managed it.
Oh you're  
No, no actually we did 
quite terrible!
Actually be better  
inside.
Cos then it depends which way you want the  host to come in, which side you want the host to come from.
I don't think  you know.
I don't think you got the choice on this one Andy.
No?
Right  that's  he's done it, by gum 
Now take it out  let it join the bird table.
Ah 
Why didn't it flash then?
Why doesn't it flash?
Doesn't matter 
Cos the flash has run out.
You bought it from B and Q.
Look 
You 
Got it from .
strong in that  
You tired?
Well I wonder 
how strong they are, yes 
What time 
yeah.
did you go to school?
About one 
I think this is your lime, I'm drinking, Kevin 
Do you want that one wound up?
is there one 
Yeah 
with lime in one?
Yeah.
Or you   I just thought I'd tell you .
I have got lemonade in it.
They're both lime and lemonade in.
Yes.
I'm sorry that doesn't sound right.
Cheers.
though 
Maybe   !
You need the flash on cos you've got  innit?
I can't resist you .
serviette the way you've screwed it up, the way you screw it up.
Did I?
Yes.
Well that's it, there's only one each 
Ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh!
That's 
No  was always quiet.
I wish somebody else is!
That's it.
On red light like that, I didn't depress the 
Ooh.
button far enough for it to take a picture then.
When i whe when the red light you sh should keep your finger on longer.
That's all I did was it?
Oh to charge up the
flash?
Ooh is this my next lot?
Mm.
Great  well I  
That's the that is the paper that Michelle 
Yeah.
gave me  
We opening them now?
Bit early.
I'm not.
Not putting  
We open them cos it's Christmas 
these?
day.
Dessert  
Do you know how many here for you?
There's some up there.
Well no I'm gonna open  Michelle and Andy's  and they're gonna open ours  I didn't bring everybody else's cos we co we're seeing them Christmas Day.
The light goes on   
I'll end up 
Ooh ooh ooh ooh.
Hope you get something  
Got to use this just like my automatic camera?
Yeah.
These from Michelle and  Andy
You can take a picture now.
have we?
Mm.
That's good
Kev !
Uncle.
Yeah.
You got a drill?
Yeah  a drill .
We'll borrow to go up the wall myself.
left, right, left, right oh no?
Yeah.
I said we might as well climb up the wall now.
Yeah, go there now?
He's got one Adrian, now ask him if he can find it!
Where's your drill, Kev?
I'll walk 
round with him.
You'll need
Well have your pudding first, before you  
This flat  erm
Yes  it looked rather 
Very nice.
unusual didn't it?
Erm  we need an extension as well.
Mm.
I we I went on Thursday actually and I  
Don't worry I'll use the battery power.
Is this bit yet?
someone's just had their accessory 
Andy's battery power   downstairs in the prison!
It looks nothing when it is in pieces but as soon as it's  done and together, it looks nice.
with Zoe.
The real McCoy?
Especially what you saw.
Why not?
if you don't, I don't care.
Eh?
Everyone's a different .
Do you think that's true?
Mm?
They're very useful around  
It says on here do no dismantle once the , I wonder why not, wonder why that is?
Er Michael 
It must be 
will you  for me?
perhaps the plastic stretches.
and then take it  
No!
These are lovely.
Really?
Yes  by the 
Hey you know they're always 
Yeah it's got this bit left over 
Er Paul what's that 
er Paul
What a horrible !
What's that ?
What?
oh.
Even that great big purple thing?
That purple
Yeah that purple thing.
Well what has this got that's attached in here, eh?
The hose goes on there.
on there  yes
The hose comes from your tap and it goes on there
Yeah.
right?
Now the hose for your garden  goes on there
I see
Oh.
Okay, so just  unclip that  by pulling the yellow 
See 
bit backwards like that 
if you stuck a bit on that 
yeah I know, we got that already, yeah
unclip that from that there, put it on the end of your hose
Yeah.
that'll then wind  and it winds the whole up.
Have you picked a  section 
No 
, oh Ruth look  she's waiting  
hang on a minute.
If we go there, she'll  the right drill,.
No we won't have the right drill bit!
Pardon?
I know what  
laugh innit?
Mum, if you just 
I bought you all we've got.
Mum, did you have that cup?
Can I get you a drink ?
No thanks .
The gateaux.
The  
The  
Dad, Dad is that  
What about Aim Hemslow No?
drill bits!
Yeah  isn't it .
Well Michael, what did you 
Right, here it is 
say about my  fruit salad ?
listen here 
It's purple!
if you're  
Why can't it be purple !
What happened to it?
It's all this   this thing here.
Blackcurrant.
This your accessories?
Blackcurrant Michael.
Well I think that you clip on here.
Is it with the hose?
Like the garden.
Is it blue?
Yeah.
Should be enough left over to push your face  into Michael !
It's lovely.
What did you have?
I didn't want to .
You just said well the fruit  salad .
How can it be fruit salad 
What is erm 
if it was purple?greenish or yellowish,
What was that word, Eric?
Oh Eric!
like normal fruit salad.
Yeah.
Is he still doing his crossword?
He was doing that about five minutes ago.
Go and get the sweets .
I'll  in a minute.
You'll have to eat it then  
I had two lunches.
Oh did you?
Grapes, smelly black banana  
Is that the  then?
Paw paw.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Oh.
Paw paw?
black cherries 
So many people do.
So many people get it now.
doesn't it?
Yeah but my  done it  in the morning go rush out to the post box 
Accessories   spray gun 
Oh no I think  
Where was  born?
Mhm.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yugoslavia, but what town?
Sofia.
There you go.
You ain't got that!
Hold on Yugoslavia  
Sofia , is Bul 
Bulgaria.
Bulgaria 
Sofia is in Bulgaria?
Oh thank you, yes.
No A something I something A 
A something I something A  Oh, I could've  you that  
I don't know   
Oh it'll be part Indian.
No it's not Mother Theresa, it's Saint Theresa.
got any letters there are five of them?
Oh you saying number three's  
No I'm not 
Saint Theresa?
Come on  you work it out.
Saint Theresa we wanted 
Oh I thought you were talking about Mother Theresa.
We started this as well 
What yo you do is using that bracket there
I'll tell you what
on the wall
we'll get  we'll get ours and then we'll sort of mix and match them 
Like so the bracket 
Right.
fits on there  and that bit just rests on the wall, well then 
Right 
what you can do  is  wind it like that and the hose winds up.
Oh good.
You'll be a strong man by the end of it.
It's alright you're off on Wednesday you can do it then.
And you can have it like that if you want.
Yeah I will.
Just leave it like that.
I I think it's better on the wall
Yeah do you think at the moment you could take it all back out again, then?
Yeah.
Where do I put it, inside the garage?
No 
I mean 
on the back wall by the tap!
Yeah.
Yeah that's where you want it, near the taps.
Yeah we'll fix it up in a minute.
It's just to see because then the   
Don't worry about it 
I'll manage 
Why 
We will
What happens   that's it we come and say right .
Adrian have you got a hand drill?
Much better on the wall.
This is how  
Got a hand drill?
No it's not the drill itself, it's more the bit
Yeah.
?
No it won't s it's too big  they're are all wood drills dear.
I've got Eric's  
somewhere.
And that's an  
drill  the what?
How can you tell?
Do you know that Adrian that in this 
house, we don't use 
How can you tell?
an electric drill in this house any more cos the handle's  
You need Michelle to 
Yeah 
Dad is making a  
Any of them in there?
Hold on hold on  the  are
Never heard of that, that's just a straightforward drill that  
I think we'll go in.
Auntie.
That's erm a ten pounds 
Auntie 
for the  
Oh how old are they, yeah.
You first  
what did you do to that, look?
I didn't intend it to be purple.
Yep.
What about wall pliers?
I blame Julie she made it 
You'll need wall pliers?
Yeah I think I've got some.
I'm  
There's half a cabbage 
There's no raw plugs in that packet, is there?
Cabbage  
Uncle has  uncle  why do you put five Ps in here?
go in there?
try to sit  
See you just gotta  
that one, that one, that one and that one 
I was certainly out of it.
you got a ?
I was saying to  
Do you want any !
Keep an eye on that one!
Did she 
Anyway 
You haven't got that one.
I just  
than they had left.
Yes.
Like 
That's right 
poison
deadly nightshade is 
Yeah.
So that's where you put it is it?
They've never had to survive long
A couple of weeks.
sleeping like that.
Anyway that's the story of 
Right, I'll take this out.
No that'll make a really good 
And if he's not had 
Ooh yeah it'll be good 
the pictures 
Eh?
No we haven't got a  drill bit.
Or have you got the same blanks as I've got.
I think I can manage  
Eric.
We've got twenty seven across which is, birth place of Saint Theresa.
Yeah I got a minu A blank I blank A 
It's in Yugoslavia I think.
What makes you think 
she's from 
Yugoslavia?
I always though  was a  symbol  
Eleven across 
wouldn't you, you buy things in it.
something I V A.
Kevin's hopeless.
Cor when that door's open!
Who's gone out there?
Kevin.
Kevin.
when we went  back in the kitchen and it's hot but
but  read the book
I'd  everything.
!
Now we'll start this one.
Did you get that?
When you've read the book, you put it up.
I dare you.
We'll have the book and get the pieces together, yes I 
No it's when we were doing the electricity.
He  goes now 
I'll be a good girl, I won't 
Yes.
more careful with him.
Michael is too.
Yeah.
You'll have to read the book then, won't you  
It's that.
Ho how do you like your new toy?
taking it to pieces you can't get them back together again.
Couldn't of intended to stay 
Yeah.
if I couldn't.
problem.
Oh oh oh oh.
Oh  
That's his problem!
Yeah.
Who's that?
What's the ancient  name for the 
the pieces don't you?
Spanish peninsula?
A  
Iberia?
Oh no I don't  but er 
Don't do that.
I daren't do that.
I fixed our washing machine.
Don't do anything  
er  our washing machine  clothes.
You two are  paired up for the quiz, I had a lot of money 
and you couldn't do so be quiet!
too strong.
She knows the master 
so go away.
When was that?
depends    
not cos you went 
then I went  don't touch that!
Remember when I  her washing machine?
erm  
Yes, big !
Okay do it.
I was so pleased 
that made me  there 
Where did you do it, where did you do this?
again.
Well there's something wrong with the washing machine I got the  
She likes to go to bed with  
I did the whole washing machine 
and then  
I fixed it.
take away and
Oh aren't I clever!
Aren't you a lucky boy Kev?
Oh aren't I lucky!
Thank you very much.
It was about two years ago when I was about  thirteen  and
It would've taken me about four hours to do it.
Da ah ah ah ah ah.
And 
Alright   
Ooh ooh and you've exhausted   
Yes  
I can't be bothered with  
But er Andy was always  you see  
Don't really like to  to  you know I did have a  that made me so close to it.
My Dad was most impressed with that,
But I always remember Ruth make it a desk, you see it only came and in   she was sitting out there and this desk,all the pieces and parts were going everywhere.
Given up now, I buy ready made.
Ooh  .
do 
Alright there, for coffee?
yes I did 
Yes.
Ooh ooh.
I might be getting a barbecue  with  
Kev.
Mm.
I can't even get   
I said  anyway this is  
you see  and then later we're coming on.
I  the children.
What?
No.
apart.
Make up  the sand .
Which would it  !
You don't have to  !
Are you having a  dear?
She'd have to put the bags  
Oh yeah come on then.
Or  
Where do you aim from?
What you bossing me for?
Get me down .
Mind your beer, hold it tight!
looking up my brother-in-law's nose real.
have you got a bit of that blackcurrant?
No thank you   no thanks .
Oh  haven't put it on there long!
It's lovely.
We love that album.
Which?
This one?
What tha 
What have I got here  
Was actually very nice, have the blackcurrant er  sweet.
And th th the the 
Yeah  Nan 
And that lovely cake.
Nan!
Yep.
Oh I got this one.
Thank you.
I know an even ruder person than that.
Like who?
Well I know you can but  !
Hurry up!
I am hurrying as fast as I can, don't 
Come on!
Mhm.
She's not going to  recover from it !
Is that recording thing on?
Yeah  
They've grown early, haven't they tha those erm
What?
what they called, narcissus.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Did you  love?
No she didn't.
No I didn't.
No 
It's actually very nice.
What's with it, sponge?
fruit salad .
No.
It's   
Cream too 
Did you know about yesterday?
The texture of it's really nice  
Dad  Why didn't you know about yesterday 
mousse.
what happened?
Mousse.
Mousse.
Mum.
Blackcurrants on.
Did Lawrence tell you about Kevin  
No?
?
Doesn't agree with me.
He was  everyone.
It's strange and it's only  
About what happened yesterday 
Oh erm  and Mi Mi Michael shakes erm 
I told them about  
the .
Do I?
What does he play?
Gonna play the  
I  he's supposed to be very dangerous .
I told him you mustn't do that again   
Mm.
Joy.
Pardon?
Two third of the meal gone without dropping any down .
You didn't need to do this for a laugh!
Fifty quid note ripped in half, oh no!
Oh you can mend that's alright, ha ha.
That's alright.
No but, what the bloke had one half and you had to have the other half.
Oh yeah .
going.
Alright now with   ?
I'm terrible at going  er since er  October I sort of become really  isn't it?
Is that for the  
Christmas shopping do you think?
Possibly yeah I think 
Five minutes?
and I think now so many people are on holidays and yo you really notice 
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
everybody going to work, you know  rather than er   in the summer.
But the office improved, haven't they got all the decorators out now even
Yes, that's sorted out now.
You haven't got the hole there to put your head in at the moment then?
No they've done that  they've fixed the roof.
They've done that.
You quite like your office don't you?
Yes.
Well he's all on his own.
Cor er   good is it?
Mm  
I mind though 
Where ?
I think it's round about twelve miles.
Sorry?
a bit scared.
please  because you  
Ooh coupled lovely.
Coffee's ready, everybody 
And er some
coffee's  
they erm 
Any more coffees?
Pardon?
Did you have some done?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Coffee?
Nice isn't it?
Mm yeah.
Coffee Dad?
Mm  Mm.
Coffee?
Did Ruth make this?
Er
Oh yes I did.
I think I'll have, yes please
Coffee  Dad 
Yeah well who's was it?
Can I play ?
?
Usually mine or  church.
What was 
Oy!
the hose for, I .
It's very nice, thanks   
the trees.
called.
Ooh.
Ooh yes but she doesn't want to .
Do you want coffee, please?
Yes please.
Do you want coffee, please!
Unbelievable !
Don't have to remind me Mum!
Thank you.
Do you want a cup of tea?
Er anybody want tea?
Bet he's not working across the road, he's not coming home 
Thing is, he'll think 
for lunch.
look at that !
You might want seconds, that I want.
Ha ha ha.
So you're going on Monday to
Do you want coffee Paul?
Molly's?
No thanks.
They can't go Tuesday.
I'll have tea later  one two three 
She's got  I don't know what I'm gonna do.
What's ?
How come  you gotta give forty tapes to the lady then?
Well she gave us twenty tapes and she said 
That's what  to know.
we she'd like at least ten
Yeah.
but she le left us twenty.
Why?
Well cos that's how many they want from each person.
Why do they want  it though?
I don't know Michael.
They're building a dictionary.
It's for a dictionary.
For this  for listening to.
A whole dictionary?
To see how many words 
Well 
people use,
well yes 
Oh right 
people like you.
and a lot of words that people 
Their computer.
do use aren't obviously 
yeah so 
in dictionaries.
No.
so you name words 
Anybody heard of the word lary?
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
That's in no dictionary how do you spell it and what does it mean?
Just lary, yes it is, it's in  a new dictionary   
Well you don't know how you spell it, but it's right.
Is it right?
Lary
No.
I means yucky but
No it doesn't  no 
It's rather yucky.
It's erm
Lary means
Yeah like  
Lary.
I think actually , I think actually
No lary means mouthy Dad.
to the teacher.
No  lary means 
er  mouthy  it means like you're cheeky.
all of my children  
That's right, that's what I thought that's when it's right.
Well I don't know.
But lary meant in a 
in our time lary meant someone's wearing a sort of bright green an 
No lar 
Yeah.
pink 
No I mean  a lot of people would say that this was a  
in time you'd say that was a lar 
Like a lary tie?
Yeah.
No that's  
Don't take any notice of anyone around here, it means mouthy, okay?
What it means is is things like  someone's got a
Cheek?
a cheek, yeah.
No I said to  
Auntie I just s , Mum I just s I just 
find it in the dictionary I'll give you five pounds .
I told hey, I I I told erm 
Wary or lary?
Lary.
I told the lady  what it means  i lary means mouthy, okay?
Just in case you didn't hear the first time.
Well it's not in any dictionary that we can find
and yet everybody knew i , all the children from work go
It's a slang word.
don't be so lary,
Lary 
Lary 
Lary,yeah .
Well, you know
One, two, three O'Larey.
It's well in from the sixties.
Oh now that's an Irish song.
Yeah.
Yeah but lary means mouthy now.
word.
No it 
Like gutty.
Lary means mouthy or she'd was lary clothes, loud clothes.
yet.
Yeah but lary  lary actually means loud like, but it can mean loud clothes or loud mouth.
Yeah  John's  at work.
Now.
I've been learning that.
Paul  
It's a word.
It is loud, it's loud clothes and loud mouth, but it's the same as what  you said  so
It means 
It's loud, yeah
not really 
Oh I'll be more laid back.
the day they sell  
things like that 
lary  
don't get stressed 
Yeah.
All these
and they do as well.
the things that we used to use as verbs, they use as nouns I think I must 
Stressed, don't get stressed.
nouns are part of your  Michael .
you're the ones who can do, get stressed 
Yeah  erm I 
Thank you fans, I love you all!
Michael.
She senses the teacher in you Ruth.
Yes.
Yeah?
Eh.
Even I can put a  computer in like those 
Look how I put that microphone.
Mhm.
when they, use it 
back properly, but they don't, Michael go er er er!
in a computer like this so that 
Aha ha ha ha .
And this woman had apparently  
Dead cool,.
Put it down!
Like Alice 
I have.
Yeah.
er yes where they li 
That's really really common!
Oh no .
Especially  on the tape.
Were you with hi 
with him on Saturday,do that?
the kind of conversation  you go up and down.
Yeah so put .
Yeah.
Yeah put it 
I'll put it  
yeah take it but 
Not unless we find out  
Can you imagine the people who'll get paid to sort out that lot  millions, I mean, probably millions of tapes will be made.
Some would be quite funny I should think  some of the comments we're making !
Imagine the poor chap  
They've probably 
!
!
Must be horrible doing that in the restaurant, last night, last night 
I went to pay the books.
we had two weirdest people, we had two
for  I was there!
and
Ah!
we were nearly under the table
Ooh 
it was a terrible  and all of a sudden this man said, I'll be jiggered!
Then she went  right
under the table, so Karen's trying not to giggle
and I was probably alright, until she kicked me under the table  Paul!
This man said to her, this wife, we assume 
Yes?
er 
we have to get the give and take blend  just right, so it sounded  like a coffee !
And the conversation was really funny.
They're nice Ruth, where did you get those?
Auntie 
Can't remember?
Auntie!
It's gone 
Sainsbury's.
I I can fill a whole tape  
Oh do you want one?
I would always er  
Auntie!
last year but I couldn't  
Auntie!
Do you like them?
For a  
Auntie 
Auntie.
Course you can   
I can tape still some  slow words
Don't you like ?
Auntie!
It is nice in coffee.
Auntie!
You have when you have it 
Auntie.
with Tia Maria  
Do you want me to  do a slang words on it?
Yes Michael , no 
I could do a couple of tapes worth of slang words that they've never heard of before.
!
No  Michael's street language.
Auntie  Thanks!
We've got a .
Is it?
It's what?
Have you got two or you got one ?
No, one.
I've got the one,I'm with Mutty .
Don't you dare  
Do you like biscuits?
Yes.
What was that Paul, was it
Oh we're the other way around.
Ooh my  
I 
is open!
Dad's on my erm      thought I was ever so good  no   I usually have baths  I  I usually got erm
I usually  get Oriental but I I'm not sure, I haven't tried this yet.
What's that one?
Erm Marina  Marina 
Marina 
Is that the new one, Marina?
Dunno, ask Paul.
I've I I've got the Oriental shower gel fro got the Oriental shower gel, that means I've the Oriental and Marina.
Well what's that with the  that's the gel and then the what, the shower gel?
Yeah.
I love that deodorant.
Probably 
Yes.
Can I leave that with you then?
Mm.
That's for Michael's birthday.
Can I have a look 
Well 
at the birthday?
Isn't it 
for  Michael's birthday .
Is it your birthday?
Yeah, no  smell my hand!
Yeah, oh 
No, actually that was supposed to be for Christmas, as it goes.
That's the aftershave then  .
Does he like it ?
Yeah  he likes Lynx stuff.
Mm.
No it's that way  I've already put it in my handbag.
Ah can I have it now?
Mm.
Auntie.
I haven't got enough for your birthday.
Auntie, can I have it now?
No.
I wanna open it  it's only a couple of days after Christmas isn't it?
Ladies and Gentlemen  Kevin says would you please move  cos these are all teams for this afternoon.
Oh
The reason why teams have only 
two members, Karen and Andrew, is because Kevin says  that you two are so clever
and he said, you would be bound to win   
that puts the kiss of death on the  
So Andrew, Kevin and  Karen are together so that's alright, then it's  Michelle and Mutty and Paul  and it's Nana and Adrian, my brother's  
Well Nana and Adrian and Michael are sitting in there.
And Nana's sitting there.
Papa, me and Lisa.
There's a star prize for the  
Well we got a good team.
Who ?
And the star prize is the whole of three Ferrero Rocher.
Wow!
The ones that she couldn't have  
Cos I'm on a diet anyway.
So I'm gonna  
I'll read out the groups to you.
try and get a packet and half of each.
We'll be alright, won't we?
Lisa an 
And the quiz is nothing to do with me.
Who did it??
it's me.
Lisa!
she wins.
We, no Kevin's not actually in this quiz 
cos he's gone.
every single bit
No he's the quiz master.
of newspaper  
No he's the quiz master, he made it up.
Oh.
I mean, really hard!
Adrian.
So who are you with, Magnus Magnuson?
With Andy  just the two of us.
won't it.
Because they'd know .
I wasn't aware of this  
And then  
I don't 
we've got the .
She looks thick, but she's wiz , wizard at general knowledge.
know every single person in the picture.
Have you put the tape on Dad?
Oh do we need glasses?
Well I think I do.
Go and get your glasses!
Have the teams gotta sit together?
Yeah  
If you need the break  
All out, everything out.
Right.
Right.
What we'll do now then 
I've got my glasses but I haven't got the   .
We're a team.
Can I do i 
No I've got the  
the firs 
anyway.
the first round is
I was waiting for you, I was waiting for you to say 
one team of four, where  
Bamber Gascoigne doesn't have this trouble, look 
Excuse me.
the first  round 
Excuse me.
Out the way.
Excuse me!
Out the way,!
The first round is pictures so if you 
Alright 
keep your voice down 
Ooh I don't have to do that.
Shall I move over here?
Is it your birthday this week?
I do like that tie, I've said that before, haven't I  
Yeah.
That was the erm
Well Michael's gotta go and sit with his team over there.
It was a good one though wasn't it?
It was 
No Po po Papa   but  I said  
Why don't you a why don't you all sit on a 
Alright 
little bit of that one.
Yeah alright.
Michael.
Mike you've gotta
No, no, no, no, we're alright  ar our team's 
Ah.
okay here.
Well we're alright here.
I'll sit on the floor.
There you are.
Right.
Is Dad alright now?
quiz masters can go over there then.
Yes.
No  sit there.
Are you alright there Dad, or ?
Karen, we can .
by Thursday.
Do you see  
I was  sat there shouldn't you?
Shall we sit  What team Michael was on?
Oh right.
Michael Michael's with Adrian and Nana.
Right.
Yeah only so you could   
Alright well sit down there then.
Right there you are  how's that?
It's alright.
me go back?
Yeah.
Who's gonna be there then?
I'll go here.
It's se Ah ah ah Lisa!
And Lisa can sit in the middle on the 
Ooh ooh ooh 
on the .
Lisa you're sitting there.
Are we being recorded?
Why have you got your headphones in it?
Er it's not 
At the same time?
Something else he's got there.
Where's ours, where's our Sony?
Oh up there.
Alright.
Don't walk off with it  will you !
You're not supposed to be  
Four 
Only four.
Well you set things up.
You divided them.
You set the papers up.
Ruth   a one one bit of paper each team.
Can we have table ?
Are we gonna have pen?
.
there that one.
grab the table quick.
Pen, I'll get a pen .
Pens are there  by the telephone.
Oh give us then will you.
No I wo I won't have one.
Thank you 
Here are Joy, rest it on the back of 
Everyone got a pen?
your hat.
Mum!
Joy?
I've got it.
You have to  to win a box of chocolates.
Well you work for yourself, I'll work for me.
Just the Ferro 
Ha.
Oh  Is that all?
We'll work really hard.
Michael.
Not really.
Okay, about ten minutes.
Next!
Don't turn over these papers.
Was it you Dad?
God it's like an exam!
Don't turn over your papers.
Well 
Yeah, this is a mock.
Mock  
Do we write the answers straight off the sheet?
Ah?
Yes the answers 
On the  
are in a little box, under each picture put the name what you, who you think it is, underneath, in that part  
Have we got to be quiet?
If you shout out  other people will hear 
Other people would pick it up.
starting
Starting  now  turn your sheets over now.
It's up there 
goes in the box, Joy.
Right, cos 
Do we have to give a name of a  character or  
Well to be quite honest when it's when it's  I'll give one point for the character's name 
Uncle!
but if you get the actor who's playing it 
have one?
We'll put  anyway.
Yes .
You're supposed to write it on there, Joy.
Oh on these, what did you give me a paper for?
No, no  
No that's my future on, sorry!
That's a  that's for
They won't need that at the moment.
Mike, you're supposed to be helping ours.
Are you  taking part?
Go away!
Dad, do you name the characters then?
You get one mark for a character name and if you name the actor who's playing it, two marks.
You get one mark, one point for the character name
Kev.
Yes.
You got another picture ?
one for the character name and a extra  one point or something for, if you can the other one  yeah.
If you get the character name  one point
It's a good idea though  If you want a spare one   or are you all happy?
We're alright.
Anybody want a spare one?
Me.
across.
Uncle, Uncle.
A spare one there.
What one point for the name and one point 
Yeah 
Kev?
For a character name,the, if you get the 
one mark for the character
Dad, why was that  a singer 
an extra mark  
type singer  ah.
Oh no you couldn't get it for singer.
Ah.
Bu good then.
Right.
That's good though.
Oh he's not a character it only works in 
only works in
I don't know who the actor is, I know who he is 
It's hard  
I haven't a clue who that is!
Who's that person?
Yes yes I know  
Who's that person?
He was on the variety 
Oh that's what's his name, yeah.
Well as you all know I'm really good on names.
Keep your voices down  the ears are  listening.
The walls 
Ah.
have ears.
That's  
Write it down 
Politicians, I haven't a clue, why did you fill it up with politicians, for goodness sake!
I didn't know there were any politicians on there anyway,politicians.
I know who number two is.
Yeah,
It's easy.
that's the easiest one on the sheet!
Well we've only got two to get.
Have you?
Yeah but we've only got two!
No but we need 
We need , we've only got one more
Yeah, well  Kevin was right then, wasn't he?
Got five left.
How many you got?
Er all but
only wants one
two.
have only got two left .
We give up, we haven't got a blinking clue!
No.
We got one   
Two, we've got two we don't know.
Few more minutes  Wouldn't matter if we had  minutes, Kev.
Oh come on.
Can't do any of them.
What!
Oh no.
Hardly done any of them, got about five.
Oh!
I've got five to go.
Hate to tell you, that was the easy page!
Have we got fifteen ?
We have.
Yeah but ten of them are !
They're not.
Oh no they're not.
Ah?
Mum.
You can't ask her!
I wasn't going to, I wanna say something  Mum 
You know what I mean  you know the one who's got Mrs 
always 
She says er  only one Mrs er
Yeah but he said, put th what they're concerned with, you ge get an extra point.
Yeah.
if you say what they link.
No it's the character  character name
Yes.
or the actor's name.
I've just put down  erm whatever  I know that is
Alright, time's up .
but I don't know his first name.
Why's one of them lying on her back?
I think we've done better with Mother.
Mm?
I should think you'd have easy done better than  
Mum  Did you spot the cheeky one, number twenty?
Oh I knew that one straight away.
Yeah I knew straight away, easy one.
You can tick your own.
Do you get two points for a totally correct answer an 
I'll decide as I go along.
Oh.
Oh listen to that !
Decide as I go!
Right, ready?
Oh Uncle, what's his name first?
Eh?
No wait till we get 
What's that other picture there?
You alright?
Yeah .
Okay, ha.
Right  number one  who any of the answers, give me some answers.
Fagin, Ron Moody.
Dicken's character.
Tha that's right 
yeah  I  
It's wrong.
Isn't it, it is .
Fagin I give you one, for Fagin.
We've got Dicken's character.
Anybody got a name, the right name?
I've got  
He was the Fagin?
No  I 
He was a Fagin,
If they get that he was originally Karen, this is a different 
What about Dicken's character?
Do you get one for that?
Took his part.
Alec Guinness.
Yeah.
Alec Guinness!
You get one for Alec Guinness, one for Fagin.
No, do you get  for a Dicken's character?
Er  no, no, no, no.
We could of got Fagin as well, couldn't we?
Right 
Yeah we got Fagin  
Next 
I  I don't know his name in  
He's in Coronation Street 
I'll give you one for that 
Yeah.
What?
Alec Gilroy
I'll give you two for his
It's Alec Gilroy 
right one for that  I'll give you two for his actor's name 
His mos his other real name is Ron something 
real name 
Yeah.
Is it Ron something?
Nearly.
Don, Ron 
Ronald 
According to me, it's Roy Barraclough.
Ah ah ah.
Ah that's it!
Two for Roy Barraclough.
We get one for that.
No we don't.
Why not?
Get two something
Alec Gilroy
No you can have the name of the  
That's  
You get one for Coronation Street, you get one if you got the title 
Yeah that's 
of the show.
one for Coronation Street.
Dad
We get one, put a one
Dad
Right, three is 
You've only got one.
Bernard Manning !
Bernard Manning !
Yeah !
We've put a ?
One for that.
A cook!
Is that one?
Who was he?
One for that, yeah.
Who was he?
Bernard Manning.
cook  yeah one.
Next one.
You could of got 
Tom Jones 
four, I cut that down as much as I could  so
Next one.
Tom Jones.
Tom Jones.
Tom Jones, yes 
Yeah 
singers
One for that.
Two!
Do you get 
Two for Tom Jones!
Why?
Because we got the right name!
No, one that's only co couldn't be anything else  
Ooh, you rotter!
It's all the same for everybody.
Yes.
Is it singer, do you get one for singer?
No we'll have si , singer, no we're not having that.
Nope.
The next one.
We're not having actor for number 
No.
either.
Oh yes !
Who?
Richard Dreyfuss.
Yes.
do I get one?
I didn't know that anyway.
Karen said it's a man in Always.
He is isn't he, Mum?
Who?
the film Always,
Yeah  yeah 
Well I dunno, you're the man in the chair!
Yes!
Alright one for that.
Is it one or two for Richard Dreyfuss then, anyone?
Who got six?
He's an American comedian on the  show.
On the Variety show.
Yeah.
Do you think we could have his name !
Do we get one 
It's over 
for comedian?
It was on last night.
Oh Rabbi Mason I've got.
Who?
Rabbi Mason.
Well yeah, he is a rab 
He is a rabbi 
he is Mason  he's Jackie Mason  
Ah.
He is a rabbi.
He was a 
You should get two for that?
Yeah,
Can we   
Joy.
an American comedian on the Variety show?
Well did I  well we did  
American chat show host.
Dad.
Well he was on last night.
Yeah.
He's not a chat show host!
Dad, dad dad!
He's American.
Dad !
Yeah, one for comedian, that's alright.
Then  American .
You and Michael,!
Gonna be something!
When I go through this, I know who's gonna go .
And number five is Saunders  Guinness.
Yes  yes that'll be Saunders.
That's not right!
Is that  two or one?
Mum, do you think I could have a pen?
Michael what did you do you can't write it in now,
Mum 
!
Mum 
Yes?
One for you, cos they got Ernest Saunders, two 
Oh.
for them.
Mum, did you get number ten  by the way?
I don't know yet.
Number eight, have you got ?
Yeah.
Tick tack man!
Yeah 
You get one for tick tack  
bookmaker
Wait
Channel four !
Tick tack man we've got.
Anybody got his name?
Two for his name.
What is his name?
I can't think.
John McCrirrick 
Never heard of him!
So can we have tick tack man?
Tick tack, one 
Got it I've got that.
bookmakers, one
Yeah.
tick tack's, one  yep.
Next one's  
And I heard Dad say straining, that is close.
Jack Nicholson not John Nicholson!
She said John!
I said that.
Jack Nicholson and he was straining 
he was pulling up that water  you know the 
Jack Nicholson.
water 
Do you get one for that.
Can we have one, for if he looks as though he's straining?
No.
Have we got one?
Can we have one for Jack 
Where?
Nicholson?
This one  and two we said  
I think we're two for Jack cos Jack and Nicholson 
I didn't know that.
Oh we wouldn't get two for Tom Jones !
Sneaky  !
And you didn't give us two 
Right 
No, one 
for Tom Jones!
one alright, one.
One ha ha    
Cos we had it on one 
And one for 
And he got Jack Nicholson 
Yep.
Oh we knew he was but we !
Can I get a word in edgeways here?
What?
Did he play Daryll in the  Witches of Eastwick?
No.
Yeah, he played it in the Witches 
Did he?
of Eastwick, but I don't think  
Yeah, well we got Daryll.
Well you see 
Ha ha ha!
And you say the part?
Yes.
Pardon me.
Alright, one for that 
Half.
No!
One for that and two for you.
See it was who I thought it was.
Paulie knows number ten, he's  
Say that again Mum.
Bart Simpson.
Two points 
Yep.
for Bart Simpson.
I bo yes.
Bart and Simpson.
Excuse me!
Why can't 
Yeah.
we have two for Tom Jones?
No I've decided.
I can't see that!
Why not 
No sorry  I've deci , I said I'd make it up  as I went along !
Number eleven 
Two for Bart Simpson 
the next one is Heron 
again
Heron 
One for Heron 
One for Russian?
Russian!
Yeah it's a hero 
Russian  isn't it?
name though.
Heron 
Who is it?
it was a  it was an 
Give us a clue.
It is Heron 
Heron is a  
Rohnson something?
Yes.
Yeah.
I should've known this but 
Dad ?
Well I know it's wrong, since I hadn't put it down  but I had Heron down.
If you knew it was Rohnson why didn't you put his name down!
I don't know, ha ha ha!
You big wally!
I got the next one.
from the head of the .
I know the next one.
Dad.
Hey!
We got that.
to Come Dancing.
I thought I'd put her over there 
Kevin, we've got Lancia down.
Lancia?
Yeah.
Yeah, what for Heron 
For Mr Rohnson 
Oh, we got that.
Why?
I don't   I don't see the connection.
Well he owned Lancia 
as well as Heron 
Hard luck if you didn't know that.
Well we've   
Well I think I should get three points for knowing that now.
Not a lot of people know that.
How many points for Angela Rippon?
Ha?
One o w one point off for being cocky!
How many points for Angela Rippon?
One  that's only have one, that's easy.
Cor one!
Who got thirteen ?
Ken Maxwell.
He's first 
Maxwell .
No it's Kevin Maxwell 
Kevin Maxwell  
Who?
Oh I got Ken Maxwell.
Oh I only got one.
You only get one, we got two !
Ken, Ken, Kevin Maxwell.
Why what's he do?
Who is it?
He's the son of, Maxwell's son.
Maxwell  Maxwell, Kevin
Do you ?
Yeah.
Marquis of Blandford!
Dad  dad, dad!
I'm glad you  you know!
You're closer than you think
Like what?
Move back 
come on,
Chelsea 
One point 
You creep  
go on then put it there.
Fifteen was your  
Who was it?
Who was
and I do of course 
How, tell him when he was young.
Now  sixteen, go on.
Who was the 
What?
football.
Jimmy Greaves 
Greaves , I knew, we know
I knew I knew his face.
Jimmy Greaves.
Who wrote, who, what are the  
We got, we got football 
Chelsea football 
She answered football
Chelsea football right
No 
Great Crystal Palace
Good boy 
Minus one, huh.
Don't believe 
One football 
Nothing really
Oh  
No, we didn't get anything 
Who's on the  
One.
Oh there were two pair of ones  
Right,this evening 
What can we have?
One mark.
That's four.
Two for magic 
So.
Yeah, we got magic  and the 
Have you got 
And, and, that he  acres
Won't give up a point for 
Who didn't, who didn't get number eighteen?
Rupert Bear 
When  person was alive.
Phone call.
What?
No its alright, we've talked him out a minute 
I thought, how many places you get 
Rupert
Two, two's the maximum you can get 
You take three from my last one, why was that?
What you get three for?
magic 
No, if you're not getting 
Oh, come off it 
three  
Oh I  
No.
Why not?
We won't 
Don't be greedy.
gonna hear from Rupert, one
One
What about Rupert Bear?
Good try, but no.
Arnold Schwarzenegger, Terminator 
I could be a  
Arnie Schwarzieger 
Two
Two for that cos they got the film as well 
Oh, and the next one is Kevin Bambers 
And Jack, and Jack the Ripper.
How many did we get with Kevin?
How many points?
One for Kevin 
Can we change teams please?
Twenty one.
They should of been all out in teams .
Can I take the spare one into work?
Twenty one.
Twenty one you stupid
.
Oh right
Clever dicks on the sofa.
I got only wrong answer
Ha, ha, ha, twenty six over there.
That's not fair cos we never 
Right, I got so many wrong answer, I put 
Cruel.
I heard that 
Right come on Ruthie 
Fourteen and a half.
Oh bottoms.
Half, where'd you get a half from?
Ah well we had, you had  we had that, that bloke  Americans, so we got half a point.
Right who's good at geography?
Oh well Ruth should be, she's got a 
It's absolutely got nothing to do with geography 
Well  
You know why he's  they did a quiz at Phillips
Oh you can 
You need your papers, oh there it is.
Yes, you any good at this?
Oh, we've decided not to give it to America so  oh I know what it is Lisa, I've been really honest and 
I haven't got a clue, look 
all numbered, I want the na , names of the 
Oh give it out  you've got to be joking.
Just write them in the boxes Joy on the paper 
No it says it on the paper.
I haven't got a 
I'd like to keep them 
I'd like to keep them wrapped Michael cos I take it to work.
I was gonna screw it up and throw it at you.
Neither have I.
I've done three and I think that's wrong.
I haven't got a clue either.
Michael got any ideas?
Dad, are these maps to scale?
What?
no way is  that big.
Are you a calling me ?
Well are these, are these to scale?
They all, well, that is 
Yeah 
really that big?
Mm, mm.
There's nothing in the middle that big.
Yes there is, but it's got a new name, called 
If we put the old name do we get one mark?
You'll get, yes you'll get one for that
Can we put that this one's near,
No you can't put near
No,isn't it mum?
Yes.
I'd rather have South America I think Andy
I bet you lot, I bet you I know who's going to score the highest this time.
Who?
Who?
Karen, wait and see, I'll tell you if you're right.
What is Joy doing?
What you've got there in your hand?
Oh.
Joyce writing, got it all sussed out.
I wouldn't say that
Paul have most.
I don't think so, no, it's interesting.
Is it switched on  or you listening to something?
Why couldn't you given us well known countries?
I tell you what Kevin if you'd done Europe I think you'd of had, we'd of had just as much trouble.
No, no, I'd of done Europe.
No, cos we haven't got a clue 
We've finished.
Have a guess.
Finished, I know lots of countries in  just don't know where they fit.
It's right 
What, no we haven't done this one 
I know.
Oh yes, I know what, don't know what it's called now.
Right, we've finished.
Give the answer to the 
We don't know any of them, but we've finished, I've got
Oh don't give them any more time
As much as I could do  south of the equator
I've just done  Europe or South America.
Well hopefully there won't be too much argument this time.
Unlike the last 
Who requires more time?
Who wants more time?
Yes we do.
cos we're only just finishing.
Should of just done it though.
No, we didn't do Africa
Didn't we?
Not enough 
Yeah I do.
Well you might but only at that age
Go on then Mike if you do it.
Well why aren't you asking the questions then?
I did it in the first year, I'm in the fifth year now, that was four years ago.
Oh yes, well then it wasn't National Curriculum.
God is it  four years ago?
Can we put in Sahara Desert?
Can we put things that were there aren't any numbers fellows?
I'm gonna put Sahara Desert,.
I know the South Africa 
It's the positioning that's difficult, ten, nine, you, cos what
Can  get some points,
Are you ready?
Ready as we'll ever be.
Uncle we have,
Yeah ready as we'll ever be.
Uncle if we had some other places in do we get more points  cos Sahara Desert is where we  
no, no, no, no not .
O K ready.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right who's got number one, this
Zambia
Mm.
Botswana.
Nambia.
It's Namibia anyway, but it's not
Botswana.
the one below, it's bad luck
Botswana.
Botswana.
Oh I thought number twelve was 
had a big war for a long time, Angola.
Oh Angola.
Fancy not knowing that 
These are all the easy ones, I picked all the easy ones.
Two.
Right, you better 
Zimbabwe 
get two
Right, two is
I told you.
You wouldn't listen to me.
No, but it's, where's it's erm, it's
you 
it's not very well 
can you imagine, can you imagine  on the top of it
Dad 
Zambia's L-shaped that is.
how do you know why 
sorry?
because that's not right up there then 
Oh,.
That's misleading.
This is perfectly good scale so it's accurate, yeah
I've just, I traced it that's 
O K.
I thought it joined up on Mozambique.
Sorry?
I thought the border was on Mozambique.
Border of what?
Mozambique 
What about
Mozambique's on the coast  's not on the coast.
Dad 
Yeah, but then you, that impression made me think that all, it's all South Africa, which, which was why
And then I thought  was erm
I'd coloured it in for you  
I said, I said, I didn't think there'd be much discussion over this.
Kevin just take hold of this will you and have 
Number three.
Number three.
Syria.
Ethiopia.
Kenya.
What's three
No,next to number four
Three
Three
Dad
Yes, who got Sudan?
We got one.
I thought Ethiopia was Sudan now?
At last.
Sudan, mm.
We put number eleven as Sudan.
Oh we didn't put anything.
Syria.
Right number four someone 
Malawi
Yeah, very good.
Malawi oh
Niapaland I give 
No.
What?
Niapaland.
Number five.
Number five
Nigeria?
Yeah.
Gold Coast 
Nigeria .
Who's got Nigeria?
Er .
Oh 
Oh 
Six,
Libya
Algeria.
Morocco, Morocco
Morocco
Yeah.
You got that one?
had that one.
Seven I had Morocco.
Number seven.
Tunisia.
Alger 
Greece 
Oh.
Very good, you said you didn't get them.
Only got two out of seven 
Tunisia .
What is seven?
Tunisia .
Tunisia .
What did we have?
I can't  
Oh we had Morocco the wrong way round .
Eight, we got Egypt 
Oh.
it's Egypt.
Number eight, Egypt.
Yeah.
You all get that one?
Yeah, we all got that.
But you see doing them in the isolated spot
Makes it harder
yeah you don't join them up, I mean I've got to know the borders
Oh
Yeah, that's the same for us all 
Oh it's so unfair isn't it?
Yeah, but you 
Did anybody get number nine as well?
Nigeria.
Didn't get any one.
Oh, I got  there.
Number ten  then.
Number ten?
Toga.
Close.
Ivory Coast.
Oh.
I did.
Have you written
What did he put?
He put  three times.
Right, who's 
Number eleven?
Mozambique
Ethiopia.
Sudan.
Is that it?
Number eleven
Mozambique 
Kenya .
Oh is it?
Oh got that right 
Kenya's lake, Kenya's got a border with 
Why who thinks  was a country?
I thought Kenya was a  
Yeah.
Botswana, Botswana
Who thought twelve was a 
No I would.
Congo.
It's a Conga.
Yes it is, it's the Belgium Conga with 
Well honestly I get the back of the 
You put Belgium Congo's, no
Good gracious.
I'm ashamed of myself.
Didn't get anything there did you?
Add up your scores, one for every one you got right.
Well I'm totally ashamed.
So am I, cos I, I don't like that map, I don't like that map at all, I mean if you drew a map
Look lady twenty years of  don't you 
Don't  that was traced, a .
The point is
I never had a map you haven't joined up so you know which country 
You couldn't join them wide, join them up and confuse actually.
No.
You should, you should do another one on the counties.
I know, I've got a map of that, it's unbelievable.
Kenya, Kenya was this one.
Oh.
Oh the counties were in English, but
Well what did you do
I don't know  I might not  
What did you get?
Two
The counties I could do that.
Oh yeah.
Yeah, the counties.
I'm very disappointed.
Two out of twelve
Yes, I should be 
between Malawi and
Well I bought cake and .
Right, Paul, you got nineteen, mum's got, mum and Andy 
Hey you say the picture one was separate.
You got nineteen?
You said the scores for the picture one was separate 
Oh you old clever dick 
I made, I made then up
Two
I made 
You got three on that.
Oh, nineteen altogether, that's good, twenty three altogether, that's good, twenty nine
Oh.
They've got  
Nineteen and a half you're catching up, you're catching up, right.
That half might make all the difference.
Were losing 
Yeah, might.
How you've got twenty nine?
True, true
It's a bit expensive  
The fact you box him round the ears to get the half point, true I think.
are we?
Yeah.
Can we change the more
what was I saying?
When we gonna ask the question?
Right, Peter's  get ready, questions
One to ten?
One, thirteen 
called Peter and you do
One
One to what?
Thirteen
Ask some questions that 
One to thirteen 
me and Paul will 
Well I have got, at least you'll get some of these, these, these are all Christmas questions.
Oh.
Thirteen.
Ruth's books, so she'll probably know all them 
Say the Father Christmas joke now.
I don't know a Father Christmas, you do, you know 
Who says ho, ho, ho?
Father Christmas.
Father Christmas lying on his back.
Alright, O K, yes, I, I knew it would die so that's what I said, but
That one  right
Right, in which pantomime would you find the following characters?
Is this just number one?
Number one, a character called, don't call out 
Don't call out.
write it down, people here will be giving away your points, a character called Dandeanee  whisper it or write it down so that people can't hear, that's right.
Everybody ready?
Yeah.
Number two
Mm, mm.
right
Yeah.
A character, a cow sold for a bag of beans.
Oh.
Beans, beans.
In what pantomime?
Just one bean.
No it's a sack of them.
No, two.
No, you're quite right.
Why?
Because you said 
Because you told her 
number one, in what pantomimes are these characters?
Are these characters , yeah.
I got A, B 
We all thought it was all part of number one.
Question two that was.
Yes, number three.
I haven't had what question two is, what is it?
A cow sold for a bag of beans, what pantomime was that in, a cow sold for a bag of beans.
Excuse me, as we're being recorded it is a pantomime 
You're well informed then.
Oh yes.
Pantomime, correction, pantomime
Can't we 
Pantomime
Pantomime
loved to be in a pantomime.
Recorded all this?
Yep.
Oh dear oh dear, right
Any 
a widow who runs a Chinese laundry 
Is that the name of a thing?
I'll give you one mark
Yeah, but is that  
I want one mark for the pantomime and one mark for the character 
I was  
listen 
Of the what, just for number three?
Yes, whenever I say.
Right.
What you 
You have the whole class yelling at you, that ain't fair Mick 
Number four.
Can we have the first question again please?
A character called Dandeanee, in what pantomime?
Question number four, a very large white bird  in what pantomime?
Whisper it, very quietly 
Oh yes, well done 
Question five, coming off the pantomimes now
Yeah.
what kind of fruit sauce is traditionally eaten with turkey?
I know you know the answer to that one.
Karen's is the best in the world .
But dad, are we , are we  pantomime
Yes, that was after the, you realize that was after the 
That, that was after  
I did say 
he did say that was after the pantomime.
Off the pantomime.
Number six  was the sending of Christmas cards introduced in the year eighteen forty six, eighteen forty eight or eighteen fifty.
Very 
So who can guess, come on who can guess?
Can you read them out again please?
I have the three 
Eighteen forty six, eighteen forty eight, or eighteen fifty  take a guess can't you or you have one in three chances  this is one I didn't know, who were the Magi?
I hope you do know now.
Yes I do know now.
What do you mean?
Who were the Magi, what, who where they and I'll give you an extra mark for each one of their names, I didn't know they had any names.
Who
How could Magi's
M A G I
I know
Magi
I know two of them
can't spell it  what's the third one called 
One mark if you could tell me who, who, what, who they were.
What, what?
One mark for each one of their names.
I don't know it at all.
I won't blame 
I know two of the names  the third, I do 
Ruth's got it right, I know .
Can we get extra point 
I didn't know 
Yeah I know, but they're brilliant.
in pairs are thought to be clever dicks, sorry.
I did have Michael, but
Oh is he?
Yeah, he's
If I could remember the third one, we'd get another point wouldn't we?
I bet he'd might of known that one.
Can we, do we get points if we put down what they brought?
No, no.
Well that's right, give it away  the first part of the question 
Ah?
Question eight,
Right,
Seven, oh no, eight.
eight,
We missed seven.
Where did Jesus, Mary and Joseph flee to when Herod decreed that all baby boys should be killed?
You repeat that 
Where did Jesus, Mary and Joseph flee to
Oh I know, I think
when Herod decreed that all baby boys should be killed?
Yes that right .
Is it?
Yeah.
I think it's that.
The bible.
Is it Bethlehem?
No,that was where he was born.
We might catch up a bit here.
Yeah, we might.
If I could remember the name of the third wise man.
Ready, question nine, these  the following lot I want you to fill in the blanks
Fill in the blanks.
Every time I say blank there's a word, right?
Yeah.
Kevin.
How many words in a blank?
Somebody just gave it away.
Oh is this nine, ten and eleven 
I saw blank, blank come sailing by  I saw blank, blank 
Which number is that?
Which number is that?
That's number nine, fill in the blanks.
I saw blank, blank come sailing by  question ten  blank, blank but once a year 
What's that?
Blank, blank, but once a year 
once a year actually.
I like, it is my favourite 
It's something to do with 
Number eleven.
What was ten then?
What
Blank, blank but once a year 
something, something but once a year.
Blank, blank, but once a year.
Do you get two points if you get both words?
She 
I think it's gonna be split like that cos some people are gonna have one word perhaps , I don't know, I'll have to 
Good job  
I like number eleven , I like number eleven, all I want for Christmas is my blank front blank  think hard.
Mine, that's happened to me, two weeks before .
, hang on say it again.
All I want for Christmas is my blank front blank.
Do  Michelle?
Oh come on Michelle, it's obvious
I know 
The answer is that and that, not that.
Yes, that's the answer.
Now Michael should of been here for this one,
Oh something to do with, about 
God Bless us everyone said blank, blank 
What 
Let him finish 
God Bless us everyone said blank, blank  yeah
Yeah.
God Bless us everyone 
How many years ago was that?
said blank, blank.
Hard one that innit?
Oh somebody who said it?
Yeah, yeah.
God bless us everyone 
Michael said it .
said blank, blank 
I know, you should got that one.
Yes you should get that one 
blank, blank, did this.
We went for 
Mutty you went as well, you saw Michael play the part.
Yes I did, he got up and said God bless us everyone
And Michael played it.
Oh yes
on the head wouldn't it?
The only laugh I remember.
Right last one.
wasting his 
Yes.
What was eight again, can you just
Eight?
Eight, question eight.
Where does Mary and Joseph 
Where did Jesus, Mary and Joseph flee to when 
flee 
Oh yeah.
Herod decreed that all baby boys should be killed?
We've had that haven't we?
Yeah I know.
That's all we've got 
The last one , the holly and the ivy now they are both blank, blank.
We don't 
Holly and the ivy now they are both blank, blank.
We've got a lot of right ones here.
Ooh.
I can't remember the name of the third wise man.
Just remember what it is  
So if we get two of the wise men 
I'm glad you can't Ruth 
we get two points 
I'm very glad you can't
It disappeared.
I'll be silent as well 
If these answers are right, you did very well.
Right.
Answer to the first one.
Here you are then.
Really want one more wise man and we get full marks 
Are we all ready?
Yes
Yeah.
Question number one, a character called Dandeanee.
Cinderella
Cinderella
Puss In Boots
No it's Cinderella 
Cinderella 
Cinderella.
Well done Joy you've got that one.
Yeah, I knew that was wrong
Yeah
when I got the other.
A cow sold for a bag of beans.
Jack and the Beanstalk
Yes, one mark.
A widow who runs a Chinese laundry 
Widow Twankey 
Widow Twankey with Aladdin 
Aladdin.
Aladdin.
Aladdin
Aladdin
If both you get two.
Oh yes.
Yes.
What's that?
Oh right 
Mark for Aladdin , mark for Widow Twankey.
Yeah.
A very large white bird.
Mother Goose.
Mother Goose
One mark.
Ugly Duckling, that was a good guess Lisa.
Mother Goose.
No party pieces 
What you 
Cranberry sauce 
cranberry sauce
Good try though, hang on, hang on let me say the question first
What is the British sauce traditionally  cranberry sauce 
Cranberry sauce.
Right, what, when was the sending of Christmas cards introduced?
Give us, just give us , give us
Forty eight
Eighteen forty eight 
Eighteen fifty 
It was eighteen forty six,eighteen forty six 
Oh 
Nobody got, eighteen forty six.
Who got it 
No one got it 
I  the middle one 
I, can I answer number seven please?
Number seven, who were the Magi?
Wise men.
One mark for three, three wise men
Wise men
King 
Kings 
The three kings
They get one for that, they 
Yeah, but they ain't got their names
Yeah
Melphor Beltravers
Oh shut up.
and  Casper.
You've read that.
I didn't.
We did Casper, we get four for that 
All three yes,
How many did we get four for that, four altogether for that, Ruth 
And if you just have wise men?
One
Read this book didn't you?
I didn't.
She got all that on her own.
Don't forget I'm
Egypt, Egypt 
Where did Jesus 
Ah, you missed one 
No I didn't, Egypt, where did Jesus, Mary and Joseph flee to, Egypt.
Oh we had that till 
No.
Three ships.
Three ships.
Three ships 
Three ships 
Three ships, one mark.
Yeah.
You get two for .
No, no.
Nothing.
Number ten any wants 
Xmas
Christmas comes 
Comes but once a 
Christmas comes
Oh yeah.
but once a year.
So that's two for that is it?
No one.
Christmas comes, you have blank, blank,two 
You can give us two 
for 
No, unless someone's got just Christmas.
Two front teeth.
All I er
No, no
The answer is two teeth 
Two teeth 
not two front teeth
Cos I crossed it out.
Not according to the judicator 
That's what we put 
Will somebody sing it.
All I want for Christmas is my
Two front teeth.
Oh
Two teeth, two
Yes, the answer is two teeth, alright, front, yeah O K.
Can I cross that 
I put front in brackets.
Oh 
That was one was it?
One mark for all these yeah
Tiny Tim, yes.
Tiny Tim, yeah.
I put little Tim
No, half, half, half.
No nothing it's wrong.
Number thirteen holly and the ivy now they are
Full grown
Where'd you get that?
One, two, three, four, five
Well
Oh you, won't get the rest of these.
Eighteen.
Twelve.
Fourteen
How do you get fourteen?
Fourteen and nineteen and a half.
Paul, thirty three and a half.
Nineteen and a half.
I'm really not with this you know 
I'm not 
What did you get grandma?
Well 
What did you get?
You get?
Twelve.
Ooh.
Ooh.
fourteen
Funnily enough we've got fourteen 
Fourteen so I can get it in 
Oh yeah you'll get your bonus
Well
Yeah.
Not enough 
Not enough, is it?
What you get mum, mum?
I'll add them up for you.
And there's another 
I think ours is thirty three and a half Ruth I think
What we got now then our , twenty nine isn't it?
She's just adding them up, she'll call them out 
Paul's got twenty eight and a half, mum's got
No, twenty eight and a half's not bad.
thirty five
It's not brilliant either.
Oh  done wrong.
You thirty five mum?
got forty one.
Good god.
We've got 
We're both thirty three and a half I think.
Thirty three and a half?
I think so, we're still lagging behind 
We're third
Quite interesting though cos it's quite equal  really
More questions
Number fourteen Christmas 
How many?
Uncle, uncle why then you have some on for like
Thanks Kev
How many?
stroppiness.
How many?
Quite rightly 
Questions please.
What?
Fourteen in this one.
Fourteen.
Ask some good ones 
Good game.
Every time I've asked him to do anything in the last three days, I can't, working out the quiz.
Right.
Shut up, right, number one
Hang on 
What's the logic of 
Yeah.
This is a mixed bag of  
Oh Kevin isn't.
Number one, name Britain's largest wild mammal
Largest
wild mammal.
or sea 
No sea is
I'll give it to you, oh land on land, we don't want you confused.
Britain's largest wild mammal 
Wild mammal.
I haven't got a clue, what do you think about that?
I think I know this one.
Whisper it.
Hang on, er wild
I'll come back on this one
Scotland, there's a clue there.
Could be.
Oh I know what it is then.
Mm.
I think it's a
Yeah who  that?
I don't know if you've heard of them
Scotland, is it that, do they have those in Scotland?
may as well 
Word of warning, I'll give you a word of warning, I'll give you an extra mark for an absolute accuracy.
There's two words in it aren't there?
Yeah 
Yeah  
Two marks for that for accuracy 
Accuracy.
Number two, here's one for mum, the dahlia is popular in Britain, from which country did it originate?
Mutty might know this one as well.
The dahlia, which country did it originate from?
Gonna say anything else Eric?
Are you implying that it's not very long been in this country?
No, been, quite a long dahlia
Dahlias were in my dad's days so
No, but I mean in terms of hundred of years
Oh
Oh yes, hundred of years.
Yeah.
Now then, next one, hurry up 
Why couldn't you ask about tulips I could've told you about.
Come on Bamber
Come on Bamber get a move on.
Oh here's one for mum, she'll get this one.
Lyde is a seaside resort, where?
I know that.
Oh, oh, oh, oh,
Everybody gets them right you 
Even ages 
I knew where was
Yeah 
You didn't get the question right though.
Why I said dad, she said mum, he said mum will know I, said well he managed 
mum will go to the, the one of the
No,
ah, that's why I said it.
Alright two if we're 
Dad wasn't that a bit simple?
Number four.
Alright, what about this one, what is nix, what is nix?
I know.
N I X
What?
She sings with er, in Fleetwood Mac, Stevie Nix
What is what?
Nix.
you're asking for the comprehension of the word.
Yeah what does it mean
Yeah.
when someone says nix?
You're nicked
No that's N I C K S you're nicks, nicks.
I, I thought, I was thinking of  
You want N I X
Question five 
Oh I  got it wrong then if 
What  first then
N I X.
This is another word for this dictionary is it?
It means 
Number five, which coin ceased to be legal tender in August the first, nineteen sixty nine?
Sorry about that over there 
Oh.
Sorry about that over there 
I know, I know.
Yeah.
Nineteen sixty nine, August the first, nineteen sixty nine.
Sorry what was the question again?
Ceased to be legal 
Which coin ceased to be legal tender in August the first, nineteen sixty nine?
Sixty nine.
Might of been
Probably, probably leave it, leave that
No, that was before then.
Eighteen.
Yeah, probably about right, twenty two years ago.
Right, next question
That second one 
Come on I'm gonna hurry you.
I'll put that down, cos I don't know.
Right oh, number six, who is the goldies crew?
Oh I know
Who's the goldie crew?
Erm
Who are the goldie crew?
Who are the goldie crew?
Is the goldie crew?
Who are
No, what do they do, I know,
First  
do you have to get it exact?
Yes, yeah.
Do you have to get it exact?
Er, ah.
I can be,be
We had a quiz like this at work and our captain couldn't 
Yeah, but I don't know which team that I'm on?
Who is and who are can make a difference.
Yeah,
Dad, what they do or 
Telling me what they do is, telling me what they do, is telling me what they are.
Who is it?
The golden crew.
I know.
The golden crew
It wasn't Star Trek was it?
Here's number eight.
A yellow jersey is the coveted prize, in which sport?
Yeah.
Oh I know that.
Say that again.
A yellow jer not the yellow jersey a yellow jersey, see a coveted prize in which sport?
Andy will know that 
What number is that?
Number seven is that?
That was seven.
Yeah, Andy knew that.
Oh, yes 
Easy for us.
yes, I know it is dear.
Why?
Oh yes of course 
Number eight 
say which country 
Oh it's a good one, it is good, the Crucible is a venue for snooker contest, which city is it in?
Oh.
Mm.
The Crucible.
Is it?
Snooker.
What you gonna put?
I was gonna put that.
Sshh, mm
You think it's the better one?
I think you're right there 
Alright.
It isn't Eric 
when I  out Eric?
I, I, I should be drummed out of the 
Here's a hard one, hard one coming up.
I think that, I'm not sure.
Number nine  you alright?
Yeah.
You alright brain boxes?
Yeah, they're such brain boxes especially they are  
they come up with so many answers they never know which one to pick.
Right, number nine, which sport world cup was hosted at Willesden in ninety eighty six?
Which sport's
Oh dear
got it's own world cup, and it, this time it was hosted cap Willesden in ninety eighty six?
Ninety eighty six, can't be.
No.
I don't know
No, I
I'm not sure, but that sounds about right.
Yeah.
I'll give a clue, lunch, lunch 
Yes.
Lunch 
That's right isn't it Joy?
Oh well I should know both of what I say 
, well what you say,
I should  
and what I say, it won't
That's for mum to know and you to guess.
Why should you know?
Well we've got to guess why she said that.
Alright, mum 
She's got to rack her brain through er
Only the four I ever associate with  
Right number ten then, number ten 
Perhaps you're right.
If it's that hard  I had it before you said that.
Alright
Did you?
That's good, name the two fences 
which are only jumped once 
Only  question 
in the Grand National, two fences 
Ooh 
Oh yes
but they only go over once in the Grand National.
It's that really dangerous
That's right.
any help.
Oh dear, I've 
I want two names 
I want two names
Oh the other one's a water one.
There's two names for two 
Yeah that one 
separate fences
which are only jumped once 
I can't remember that one.
Put that round the wrong way.
Right, there's only one, there's only one person who's gonna know this, this question,
That's me.
little Paul, I think.
Little Paul.
Number eleven, The Tangerines are the nickname of which football club?
Oh yes, think about it.
What the proper nickname?
No, I want the names
No,no, but is it the proper nickname on the 
Well I think so.
Alright, Eric knows.
Well yes he might, yes, I could see why he would know, yeah.
Why?
Yeah I can't, well I'd give it away.
Is it a proper nickname?
Yes I think it is.
Oh you want the nickname?
No 
No 
Oh.
That's the nickname of the Tangerines 
Will you  
Yeah
Sorry what's 
It's a nickname of a famous football club
That's right, yeah.
Oh the  won't know that over there.
No, maybe not, no.
Andy won't know that.
Write it down, I'm not sure.
Tangerine Paul'll know that.
That's the only one I've got 
It doesn't make any connection with 
I'll give you a clue, it's to do with their stripe.
I know, but 
It might grow 
called eagle.
Right, number twelve
Number twelve.
it's an easy one, what must ladies wear in the Royal Enclosure at Royal Ascot?
Can we have two answers?
It's alright you all know the answer now 
Thank you Eric.
I knew it anyway.
Well there's only one in 
But we did know it Eric.
Did you?
Yeah.
Number thirteen, two more to go.
This is a good one as well, which creature may be called 
That  
Bubbly Jocks in Scotland?
Spell it.
Bubbly Jocks
The biggest mammal in the world 
Bubbly Jocks , J O C K S, Bubbly Jocks in Scotland
Yeah.
Creature?
Which creature?
Oh.
It's called a Bubbly Jock
Yeah, yeah.
I've got 
Is it a mammal or what?
What was the question or  please, sorry.
I'll give you a clue, it's a bird Kev.
Oh.
Which creature may be called a Bubbly Jock in Scotland?
May be called.
it's a bird.
It's a bird.
I'll give you a little time for that one.
Eagle.
Kestrel.
Last one 
why we didn't hear, what was thirteen.
Thirteen, with which creature may be called a Bubbly Jock in Scotland?
How do spell that 
Bubbly Jock 
second word?
Cos it's a bird.
It's a bird.
J O C K S
You were right about those two weren't you?
Ha 
You're right about you two, you are good.
They shouldn't have.
You don't guess do you, they 
Last question 
What term describes a group of ducks?
A  of ducks, a  of ducks.
Oh it's a funny one isn't it?
The something of ducks.
No, really strange ducks .
No, but I can't think what it is.
Not the  no 
No, that's geese.
With duck, not geese.
No, a  of ducks.
You said it.
Group name of ducks.
I don't think it is that, but I don't know.
Right, ready for answers?
Yeah.
I think it begins with 
Name Britain's largest known mammal?
Loch Ness Monster 
Moose
Lock Ness Monster 
Red Deer 
Red Deer
Red Deer, two marks 
Hooray we've got it.
Deer one mark.
Well my moose is a deer 
It's not  moose 
There aren't any mooses in this country.
Canadian 
I thought a reindeer, but they're
That's what I said
aren't they?
They used to be 
Right two, the dahlia what country?
Japan 
India
India.
Japan.
Russia.
Mexico.
Oh Mexico 
Mexico 
Nowhere near it.
Not a lot of people know that.
No, we do now.
Everybody knows this one.
Right, number three.
Isle of Wight.
Isle of Wight.
You did know Mutty
One point 
you did know.
One point, what
Is that all?
Isle of Wight
Yes.
I though we would of got three, one for 
Good try Andrew.
What is nix?
Nothing.
That's how many points you get 
Nothing.
Nothing.
Nil
Nil, one point for nothing.
Two for nothing.
Oh two for nothing.
Two for nothing.
That's the actual word, nothing to hand down for.
Where did that come from?
Nix, nicta, not is not German isn't it, nix, I don't know.
Right, which coin ceased to be legal tender
Threepence.
Sixpence.
Threepence.
Fifty P
Earlier.
That sided hexagon.
Half a crown, sixpence.
Er, right, what is it?
Old half penny.
Oh.
What  is it?
Old half penny.
No not half penny
No you've got half a crown, you cheat.
Number six, who got six?
Blackpool
The Italian yacht
The  crew often 
Oh, I'm sorry yes what
it's a crew.
Definitely one for that, it's the second crew, it's the reserved crew of Cambridge 
Crew in the box, I  second crew oh look I got second crew, second crew 
You got second crew which is two 
in 
No, one mark.
Is that all?
You can't put both for that one  
That, it means nobody else  
Seriously, what was the question?
Goldie crew.
Goldie crew.
I'm sorry that is mean 
I've got all the words  
All the words 
number seven.
Precisely.
Dad you put
You're so mean.
The yellow jersey coloured 
Don't you dare give them two, one.
One.
it's not the Tour De France anyway 
Never, they never started
Right, which sport's world cup was hosted at Willesden?
number eight.
How about number eight, come on.
Oh yes, so sorry.
Oh yes.
Sheffield.
Bournemouth.
Sheffield.
Bournemouth.
Sheffield.
Sheffield.
Yes, yes 
I thought it was Coventry 
We even had Birmingham at 
Bournemouth.
Right which sport's world cup
Swimming
Bowls, bowls .
tennis 
Tennis.
Tennis.
Ice skating.
Hockey.
Hockey.
Cricket.
I said hockey.
don't you?
Just remember next year, you do not put me in for 
I think you'll win anyway.
I had it written down Kev.
Er
Number ten
Right number ten, name the two fences which are only jumped once in the Grand National.
Beechers Brook 
Beechers Brook 
Beechers Brook
the Chair
What I got here, the Chair
Yes,of the Chair
Oh yes.
I got, that it's got, had water jump.
That's Beechers Brook 
Beechers Brook 
It had water jump.
The only reason is, the only reason we got that right is that's the only two names of the fences we knew.
Yeah.
Well we're all, all happy.
Right, number twelve, oh no, number eleven.
Blackpool
Blackpool
Blackpool.
Tangerine.
I, I knew it was 
I don't think we're gonna get any more points 
That's gold 
on this.
Right
What
Everybody ready?
Yeah.
That's twenty ahead I think 
Question one  name the first English printer.
I know, I know
Voice down.
just done it in a project.
Got it?
I  
Do we get two points for both names?
christian name 
Thank you.
Christian name and surname.
Just done it.
Yeah 
Two points for this 
I haven't got his christian name 
Ooh, you haven't got his christian name?
Oh dear me.
I don't know both names 
.
We can beat the quiz master.
In which year did the great fire of London occur?
Which year, I want the 
Oh 
exact year 
Are they all history questions?
No.
Oh no 
Yes, something that this, this day and date that's in the  
Right question three.
Hold on.
No one 'll get the answer to this, but I just wanna ask the question to this.
Did you add, did you add one question on the end that I would answer
You can't be that dumb.
Question three, who discovered Uranus in ninety seventy six?
I just wanted to say that question, so, who discovered Uranus in seventeen eighty one?
Er
Well you need to give us a clue or there's no point asking the question.
W, H.
William Holden.
I dunno.
Oh yeah.
Question four, I don't think , question four how many sides has the brass threepence, the old brass threepence?
Oh dear.
Easy 
How many sides has the old brass threepence?
Eight.
I don't know  in my life.
Threepenny bit.
I've got one at home 
Can't remember.
I'll give you one mark for er the right answer and two 
Two for the wrong.
two extra, two extra, no one extra, one extra for the exact
You are enjoying this aren't you Kevin?
What was the Silver Ghost?
I know dad
I want, I'll give you two marks 
Hang on.
for the accurate.
I know 
Is it that?
what that is
Eric was it that?
Silver Ghost 
I don't know.
It's that.
Cos Adrian this is true to  
Mum  
Was it that or was it a
Yes, yes you're right
the answer's obvious but there's a little bit to it as well.
Yeah.
Someone can experiment  
You think it's one of those
Yeah.
You don't know any more?
No.
That mean get three points if you get that right?
No, it's two, you get one for the right answer 
Eric 
one more for
do you think it was one of those?
No, but he might of got it wrong you don't know that.
that's right, well love what was the 
Number six.
no you're not supposed to tell people.
keep picking up your answers
Yeah, it's your 
It always happens though.
Why
losing, she only wants to show off.
Why was Edward the black prince so called?
Why was Edward the black prince 
Oh I know.
so called?
I think I know.
Could it of been?
Could of been, yeah.
Thanks Paul,
I hadn't seen the  
How do you tell the age of a horse?
Oh that one
Oh.
Oh I was thinking of a tree
Oh I know.
How do you, yes your 
By the br 
your way 
Cut it half and count the rings.
How do you tell the age of a horse?
Question 
How 
Easy 
know that one.
There's one for Mutty.
What is a Blenheim orange?
What is a Blenheim orange?
Question nine.
What is a coypu?
A coypu.
Oh I know.
A coypu.
Do we have to know exactly?
Well no 
What 
No, no 
What is a coypu?
Yes.
How's it spelt dad?
C O Y 
C O Y P U.
And no marks for the obvious answer here, question ten, what are the willies?
Sshh.
What are the willies?
Yeah, anybody want another ?
up to fourteen and then 
Number eleven.
Number eleven.
Name the famous golf club, and golf course at Virginia Water.
Er 
Yes.
Name the famous golf club and course at the Virginia Water.
Oh dear, oh dear.
Oh yeah.
Thank you everybody.
May I ask one ?
Number twelve, what is measured in Ells?
E L L S.
Why should I know, should I know particularly?
You should know.
Eh.
Is it a volume or, or a 
Unit I suppose.
I think it's a, I think it's a volume, but I don't know what it measures.
What is measured in Ells?
Do you mean the letter Ls, or
No it's E L L S 
E L L S 
Not water then, not, not metres?
Michael you can give your answer 
Oh right.
Right question thirteen , two more to go let's finish, question thirteen 
I think about ells , I haven't 
What was the name given to the tight trousers worn by teddy boys?
It's more like  
Oh.
Oh yes, we know that one.
Tight trousers worn by teddy boys.
Erm, can we write our erm  
You're trying to catch me 
You're an old smart you really are.
Yeah.
Oh that's not fair, you're asking qu , no you ask questions
I know 
from outside the quiz.
Last one, easy question.
What is a Friesian?
Yes.
You know, you know.
Right, does Michael want to have a number fifteen then?
The same .
Hang on, say that again.
What is a Friesian?
Friesian.
A Friesian?
Yeah, but you can't do that, cos you're in the team.
No you.
No cos you're
Order.
She was, she's not with us she said.
Go.
Go on then.
Enlighten us.
Enhance us with 
Yeah.
What did Kevin Cosner play, what's his name?
Eh?
Say that again.
What?
What character, the character that Kevin Cosner played in Dances With Wolves, haven't got a clue, this is not fair cos you're making us fall further behind if we don't know the answer 
And then there is B to it, what ?
No, that'll have to be number sixteen.
Oh I  seen the film
No alright, we've just 
Can I just do one more then?
I just 
No.
I just want to do, who invented the toilet?
That, do I know the answer to that, William Crapper.
No it wasn't
I know.
It was Thomas Crapper.
How many was  fourteen or fifteen?
Alright number one.
Right, answers, question one
William Capstan.
William Capstan.
Oh yeah.
Yes,
Well you know William you can have two points
I, I believe you.
favouritism.
In which year did the great fire of London take place?
Seventeen ninety three 
Sixteen sixty six .
Sixteen sixty two.
Yeah.
Very good.
Seventeen ninety three.
Very good.
The year after the plague 
Sixteen sixty five was the plague
I didn't know the year of the plague  
Sixteen sixty six was the year of  
No one answer, no one you 
Yeah, Wilhelm Ulasey.
No William Hurschell.
We've put five question marks 
Ah?
We've got five question marks.
Number four, how many sides has a brass threepenny bit?
Twelve.
Eight.
Twelve.
Twelve.
Twelve it is.
Twelve.
Oh six one side, six the other.
Oh.
No it isn't, it's twelve all the way round  shape 
All the way round , who's got one?
I got that.
Who's got one?
You got that?
Yeah.
Adrian what
Got a lot more than you think.
what was the Silver Ghost?
Rolls Royce.
Rolls Royce motor car.
It's a figurine of the women.
Rolls Royce one point
And it's the figurine of the women 
Phantom.
Something about the Silver Ghost 
Dad, it's the Silver Shadow 
I, it isn't
No.
Phantom.
You've one mark for Rolls Royce you get two, an extra mark for saying Rolls Royce first model.
Oh.
number six.
It was also that figurine of the women
Was 
was based on 
Really?
No you can't have another point.
Cos we went to 
Why was Edward the Black Prince so called?
Cos he wore black armour.
Cos the black death happened in his reign.
He had black armour.
Black armour, colour of his armour is black.
Oh, very good.
You got that one Joy.
Very good.
A little guess 
How much we get for that?
Michelle knew number seven, I saw 
I think we're, I think we're falling behind here.
Falling behind here.
Who's got number eight?
Apple
Apple, one mark.
I remember that.
Number nine, what is a coypu?
A  wolflike animal.
Rodent.
Rodent, yes, we got that.
A rodent, yes 
You said, we didn't have to be exact.
Say that again mum.
Animal, that's not good enough 
Mum , mum
I said how exact do we have to be.
Point two five.
Called again?
Michelle  
I said, you didn't say if that was an animal, I was 
Ha, a six pack of coypu
No, no, don't wash, don't wash.
Right, number ten, what are the willies?
Islands
Depression, depression.
Nerves
The nerves.
We put depression.
Well that  I've got the willies that's what 
I think I'll give that.
losing .
Yes, I'll give that.
You know where that comes from 
you know that women in white, that's written by Willy.
Yeah.
No, Wilky Collins wrote that.
Oh Wilky Collins.
Willy Collins 
It's like you say, someone gives me the willies.
That's right, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I thought of that but I didn't think that could be right.
Right, number eleven who got the famous gold course 
Collindale 
Wentworth.
Yes.
We did 
What is it?
Erm
One mark for that man
What is measured in ells?
Material
Water.
Very good.
What did she say?
Lengths of cloth.
Oh lengths of cloth.
How did you know that?
I heard it somewhere, I, I 
do it in feet and inches.
You know where I have heard it from, it's from work, because er they do, they do lengths and stuff and
Really, oh.
and  I knew I'd 
Right, who got thirteen then?
Drain pipes
Drain pipes is 
Drain pipes, yeah
Drain pipes.
What?
I didn't say that did I?
I tell you what I guarantee Karen wouldn't have known the answer to the next one if she hadn't known me.
Right.
The mind boggles.
What is a Friesian?
A cow 
A cow 
A  cow.
You can say old Friesian you.
Hey, I won.
Add them all up.
I thought he said Friesian.
Karen, I think you  out on that.
What you get?
Eight.
Eight.
Thirteen.
Oh.
Oh they're cheating.
Eight.
No they won, we came last.
No we equalled them though.
I don't know, probably 
I get one more.
You'd better give the prizes, I'll have the .
I vote that And Andy and Karen don't play together any more.
Kevin said they'll win.
You said that's why they don't need three people in their team.
Dad what about the prizes?
Right, I don't, I mu , I must say I don't think I would of won without Karen, she got most of them, I was writing them down most of the time.
Someone , oh someone's taken the prizes, disappeared, dad.
What, someone's eaten them.
Karen can't have  chocolate 
Who said I can't?
I love Ferrero Roche
I thought I'd won after the  Kevin I thought, I thought I'd won after the third round so I ate them.
Do like Ferrero Roche.
Jolly nice if it was on.
Turn your light on Michael.
I'll put the kettle on.
the sandwiches aren't made yet, I don't know why.
I'm sure, well done mate.
Hang on is this .
Anybody want to have a look at 
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've forgotten what it looks like.
I've got one at home, but I've
much nicer.
Don't you remember using the 
Yeah.
cos  
Gosh aren't they tiny 
What's that?
A threepenny bit.
That's a threepenny bit 
I've never seen that 
You know the first time I came in this country cos it was not decimal yet
Oh yeah.
Didn't they have character those coins.
Yeah, but I can't  sides than that.
Yeah gran because of the fifty pence piece.
Yeah, yeah.
Remember those?
No, I've never seen
Can you, now there's twelve countries in the E E C, can you tell me what they are?
That's the  the four colours , used to be on the 
Er
Twelve of them, but I can't work out 
Holland, Belgium ,Luxembourg 
Er, let's start from the top, there's Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, Italy, Spain 
Spain 
France 
France 
Germany
Greece
Greece.
Greece 
Greece 
England if 
Ireland.
Ireland.
No Ireland is
Eire
Oh yes, and 
Twelve
Where's the other two, is Denmark in it?
Put them down there love 
Denmark 
just for a joke.
Sweden has applied, but they're not in yet
I don't know if Denmark 
I'm not sure if Denmark
Cos Den 
Didn't they come out, Denmark were going 
They have their own little grouping and I, how, how do you make twelve, there are twelve in there now
Yes, I know there are twelve
well who are the other ones then?
Twelve what?
Twelve countries in the E E C.
Oh 
It's your 
Can you
Can you name the twelve?
You see.
How about Portugal?
Well what about Portugal?
Portugal of course.
No it's not.
Yes it is, well 
Portugal's in it,
Yes.
Well it's in the process of  Spain.
Oh, I know that er, Austria
Austria and Sweden
Austria and Sweden are 
I'm surprised Austria wasn't in it anyway.
Oh no,photographs .
Are we  now?
Yeah.
I think, oh I don't know .
Is it getting cold, oh my feet are getting cold.
Well these are warm 
Well that's open that's why.
The others were perfectly alright, but they've just worn out, do you like these?
Has someone got a ?
No.
Where, the spare  were given to the children .
Who wants a Ferrero Roche?
Dad, dad.
half of mine.
Who wants a Ferrero Jacque?
Adrian , cos I know you do 
Ferrero Jacque, Ferrero Jacque, dormez vous .
He's got one.
I've had, I've had Karen's.
Who wants one?
I've got one.
You've had one?
Who hasn't got one?
No I don't want one thank you.
Who hasn't got one? oh well, ha 
A hundred and seventy five 
Cor I 
I didn't think these were so good in their  
How many .
Yeah, I got about half 
Well we got other things, we've got to drop the kids off  skating
Oh I see
Yeah.
And take the car back.
Take the car back to you, cos they're off tomorrow 
use it tomorrow morning and
Sorry?
Got to use it for the paint.
No I ain't.
No he isn't.
Oh.
It's not insured 
He was originally , when he was doing the 
December the second.
No.
No , it runs out at twelve o'clock tonight.
Oh does it?
I think, now you say that, it's probably twelve o'clock tomorrow.
Well I even say the originally, he was going to come over with Robert stuff
Mm.
Now  
Oh yeah I see 
with this Molly lady.
How you getting back  
This afternoon 
Er one minute past midnight on the second of December.
Oh that's alright, today's the thirty first  tomorrow's the first.
No, tomorrow's the second 
Is there a birthday today?
No.
No , it's the second tomorrow.
Second tomorrow.
So it just runs out past midnight tonight.
on the second  it's the, it's the first today isn't it?
No, a minute past midnight on the second.
They don't have to be that 
Right, so other words one A M on the second  that's right.
Well you really want it  don't you?
Mm.
You really want it  really   
and er I'm
How you getting back from Joy and  tonight?
Carole's picking me up.
Are they?
Carole's picking me up, oh she'll pick me, yeah, but we've got to go to Epsom anyway  so we'll go  pick up Carole's car and
Yes I only opened it, cos I want Angie to come over to help bring the food over, cos we've only got the one little car,
Yeah.
and if the food and the drink to come over
Yeah.
well 
Uncle Adrian
Yeah.
Do you want, do you want the 
You're more likely to drop something.
Anybody want to see the one with the ?
Jill can come over about
There, er nineteen
Nineteen fifty two, that's the older one.
that 
Pick up the food and drink, it's, it's all be at our house , van stopped to get the drink on and the glass 
Paul, the coin shop?
Yeah.
I've got old sixpences here and 
before nineteen twenty,
Ma, ma
Saw the content in them
Joy, you must ring up Jerry  about the 
Yes,
There's one there, nineteen, nineteen, the other one nineteen sixteen.
I think the oldest one we've got is something like  got us a Roman coin , they .
We never recall one thing.
I never ever buy  but they
Oh thank you.
I recorded three full tapes and then the head was slurry
Ooh.
everybody slurry plays 
Some places it's perfect and other places it's slurry.
Have you tried to record ?
Yeah.
Dad, you've only got one of them.
Radio.
Mum.
Yeah, I, I 
You rest you've got loads of  
I have some lovely tunes I have 
No, it's very complicated 
but 
there used to be a  
no in places it's so slurry, it's almost slowed down  
mind you, I think Arthur will have plenty done.
There's one thing about it, only been a year old the heating is in good condition, you're warm in there.
It's only a year old that ?
Yes.
No, you're  this is a new one.
Oh it's been out there longer than a year though.
No, is it longer than a year?
Yeah, mm.
Too much exercising.
Well it's the same age as Waitrose isn't it?,
I would then say yes.
Before that.
Before that I would say 
How old do you think it is then?
Well it's
Well I think a, they, knock, had to knock down the old brown  hall
Yeah
build Waitrose
Yeah 
they must before that they moved them out  five or six years.
Oh not as much as
Joy it's not five or six years old is it?
About two or three I think.
I would say two, three, yeah, probably three I'll say
Mm
cos I I saw  
It's been a year  practically hasn't it?
Yeah.
it's been finished, so it was, I would say I was going to town.
Where do you play badminton, upstairs?
No, downstairs in the front.
we're in the back are we?
When you see the all attractive with  
What do  top scoring then 
Eighty.
eighty.
Narcissi smell strong Joy?
Pardon?
The narcissi smells strong.
They always do don't they?
It must be coming your way, it's not coming here.
No I can't smell it.
Were you here on the day your  Joy?
No, I didn't, I said 
Why'd you 
We 
Did you, yeah.
There are a lot of 
I mean that erm,I don't like, what's that called 
Yes,
Yeah.
and erm,
marigold erm, eh comes from Africa.
Oh by the way Adrian my 
Yeah,
yeah, mine's going along quite nicely too and my, I've taken some er cuttings and they're popped up this week
Oh yeah.
and er that plant you gave me, whatever it's called, is er growing extra leaves
Oh yeah.
left, right and centre.
Wow, you 
He's training
Andrew,
Mm.
Andrew got some wonderful flowers on here,
Well two years ago I did, but I didn't have any last year, two years ago it was a beautiful flower  
Well last year we moved it out into the gardens.
Yeah  mind you it's coming again now.
Oh, it might be something to do with the .
The original 
It's something to do with the genes I think.
Oh, you can find out.
Ours have even doubled that ours 
wasn't it?
That was when?
A bit straggly in comparison to ours isn't it Eric?
Oh dear.
Oh that will come on the 
Look at that one we had 
Erm, when all the flowers are gone do you feed it?
Well you just leave it alone don't you?
What?
After the flowers are gone, do you leave it?
Oh I leave it alone once the flowers are gone, I 
Put it outside and that's it.
put it outside.
Couldn't .
Yeah, but you can't put it outside .
Well in the greenhouse if it's
Oh, mm.
Yes, I won't touch it after the flowers have gone 
Cos it , it, it really is a miserable looking flower in the, in the winter 
I started  
Did you?
Yeah.
Again
A little er  fish, fishes 
Mm.
Do you 
Tropicals?
No 
No 
No 
Goldfishes
Oh right
How's your funny one?
What funny one?
The black one?
Black one
She's alright, I think so.
Yeah,.
Is she alright?
Yeah.
The other one keep 
The other one bullies him a bit 
The other one bullies him though does he?
There's still some  though 
I mean  the way he chase round the edge  chase round the bowl
Not male and female are they?
What with    
What happened to Julie?
Oh not until about one o'clock.
Oh, the neighbour rang me up and said by the way she'll be a bit late 
Er, mm,
well, definitely a bit later.
It's alright, erm, want to sit down yet Paul?
Our lock is still
no
then.
Yes.
Yes, I'll shall have to go and see  at the traffic and find out what's gone wrong.
I really need to hang on to the key, is that alright?
If I hang on to the key?
We'll take it back tonight,
if I hang on to that and put it away in the garage and hang on to the key so I can get the right, the right lock 
this morning, and then the key, the key wouldn't work in the lock.
Oh dear.
So when, when you going to send 
The mind boggles.
Tuesday 
Tuesday 
at one o'clock.
what you go in Karen's car?
Yeah.
It's not worth extending your hours cos you might get one any minute
No  we can manage with one car, bus or walk 
Our bus service is pretty good now though 
The two one three is marvellous
yeah, I get, you know, walk to Bognor and then, never have walked back.
Karen couldn't believe I got back so quickly the other day.
Mm.
Dad
one of those.
Eight or ten minutes is all you usually wait though if you  
Well I didn't even wait that long.
No, came along
Erm, when was the last time I caught a bus from you?
Paul
Friday.
He'll be in favour with your dad won't he because I went, I, I 
I got a, I went, I, I walk down 
No Thursday 
the bottom of the road
yeah
across the road and took my cigarettes out, out my pocket to light up a cigarette and a bus came round the corner so I put it back again.
Is it Marks', they Marks'?
Yes, to 
Are those Marks'?
No.
No.
No Tudor Williams 
Tudor Williams 
Oh, Marks's have got a whole range of them as well.
No, but you can get , you can you can get, you can get to Wickham Avenue, the other end of Wickham Avenue from that .
A very nice shopping  yeah big one.
Yeah
I think British 
I've caught some, where I'd caught a bus to you, if, remember when I was decorating the flat?
Walk down Wickham Avenue and catch a bus at the end of the road 
What bus is it?
Four O six is it?
Oh is it, the four O six?
No, no, it's a red bus.
A red bus or 
I can't remember 
My one 
but it stopped outside the baths.
Yeah.
You can get to us, you can get on at the ba , at the baths and it comes up past  Park and you get off, you get off at the end of Wickham Avenue 
No it's the two nine three
How you going to  
That's it 
I can tell you .
Yes you did Joy.
Oh yeah.
As many services as possible 
I mean fancy expecting me to go by tube  
Two nine three
Yeah.
It stopped outside erm  
The two nine three's every half hour.
Is it every half hour, as  as that?
I think so, yeah,
Cos I looked at the timetable , I looked at the timetable when I, when I caught it over there,
it was on time too.
And the ninety three, I'll always remember
Yeah.
You can catch a ninety three from Alison's to us
What rubbish.
the ninety three comes to us 
Yeah, instead of walk right round nearly up to the 
What's this  
What Wimbledon station?
Yeah, cos the ninety three comes to the bottom of the  as well.
Does it?
Not the ninety three, two ninety three, ninety three finishes 
No, the ninety three comes to Wickham Avenue as well.
I thought it finished at North, er North Cheams.
It comes off at North Cheams and goes down Church Hall Road, and up Priory Road, till it the end of  Avenue 
Oh, I see, that end
Mm.
I'm thinking it going from 
Yeah, well I used to, I used to when I  used to go .
Very good.
You ever see that 
They 
No not his, but another one.
Yeah.
and held his finger in a  for three hours
Ooh, held his finger there
and surgeons battled to save his life 
I don't think Baker's been a very good Home Secretary.
He's a bit of a flapper isn't he?
He flaps a bit, he always
He covers it up well, I never been as  things wrong 
He moves too late, I think 
And then he fires from the hip while  
Yeah then he fires from the hip and doesn't  far too strongly.
It was a bit of a
Yeah 
I don't think he's good at the job at all.
Well I don't know, I think he's covered up he's not good for a long time, I didn't know he was that bad.
What's that?
Er, table .
who was doing, who was erm Secretary before him?
Did you want any help?
Nope, we're alright
So you tell my  that are frightfully posh drive, he comes in backwards  oh who's that?
It feels colder out there, I don't 
I felt cold, I feel it's got colder definitely  
Sorry.
Oh.
Two little piggies
Oh,
that's what they used to do when they were young  I always made two cakes.
Well which one's, well this one's Karen's, the one with the piggy on it 
Piggy 
Yeah.
You take great delight on that don't you?
No.
I only did two pigs 
No 
Which one's mum?
Which one 
The pink one 
do you think is mum?
the pink one is mummy 
Oh the  
the one with the piggy on it.
The  is that, is that actually
It's one of fudge and one of  
Happy birthday to you  
one of sponge and one of fruit one.
believe that 
and they all like the fruit one best 
Yeah.
of course and they always wanted to 
Isn't that nice?
Mm.
No, no I know he doesn't do them does he?
Who made that?
Who's the  
Pink I suppose is Karen isn't it?
Yes of course pink is Karen
Pig for Karen.
Pig for Karen 
Thank you dad for being so serious 
What, it's a lovely idea 
for me.
Yeah.
I thought it was you 
I would, I wouldn't call you a pig at all.
I thought it was a  
I think that's the way I 
pig.
Karen if you go and sit on that seat over there then, come on 
Oh alright 
Oh no it isn't alright, I've got a bone 
sit next to Karen  and warm up 
Now you can't always  
It's a long way to have one 
I think dad must of  
You alright, a couple of  there?
Yes, that's fine for Eric  for a while.
Change places 
I quite like sitting on especially to eat.
Well I do actually
Do you?
Seventeen ninety three?
That was a wild guess 
Cor, strewth 
Seventeen ninety three for the great fire of London.
Architecturally it's not a pleasing sight.
It's really a legacy of the Sixties.
Shoppers don't like it.
It doesn't complement the conservation area and I don't think it really attracts trade any more.
It's really had its day.
This place here is diabolical, it's terrible.
Why?
Well there's no amenities, nothing.
It's open, you walk along and there's rain dripping down.
Terrible.
I just don't like the greyness, that's what I don't like.
I don't know, I just don't like it.
There's nothing here, is there?
No, I suppose it isn't very attractive.
There's no grass area.
Just a few flowers would brighten it up a bit.
Do you think it's an attractive building?
What, Friar's Square?
No, certainly not, do you?
It's a very expensive patch-up, isn't it?
It's not a patch-up.
It's a major attack, if you like, on a 1969 shopping centre.
The market will return to the cobbles on Market Square, and shops will stay open when construction starts early next year, with Friar's Square Mark Two ready for business in spring 1991.
And plans have been revealed for a £16 million shopping market as part of the redevelopment scheme for Gloucester Docks.
It'll be known as the Southgate Arcade.
Designers say that while still reflecting the nautical air of a Victorian dockland, the new development will incorporate a number of American ideas, based on the festival markets found throughout the United States.
Still to come, another of our special reports from Florida and the enlightened council that's collecting lamp posts.
Find out why in part two.
Welcome back.
A night of second division football brought double success for our two Central South sides.
Oxford Manager, Brian Houghton, was delighted to see United beat his old team, Hull City, 2:1.
And there are no complaints either from Swindon's Lou Macarie as his side boosted their promotion hopes with a 1:0 win over Bradford City.
Tim Russon reports.
Oh to be at Swindon Town in springtime.
Luckily it takes more than swirling snow and an Arctic wind to blow Swindon off course these days.
After 10 minutes Town were ahead, Jones the maker, Duncan Sheerer the taker.
Bradford were no pushovers and with the snow settling mistakes were always going to be made.
Fortunately, Town were let off from this one.
As always, Swindon piled on the pressure, racing, chasing and challenging for every ball, and shooting when they had the chance.
A second or so before half time Bradford should have been dead and buried as Tommy Jones hit the post.
In the second half, Swindon were again on top whilst Maclaren fired them up with a free kick.
Now for those who think they know better than the rest, watch this tackle coming up.
Would you have given a penalty?
Watch it again.
The referee turned away, leaving 6,000 Swindon fans, including Steve White, shaking their heads in disbelief.
Mind you, Swindon only had themselves to blame for not getting more goals.
One of these days some team is going to suffer when Town really get their shooting boots on.
In the dying minutes Bradford had Lee Sinot send off for arguing, but by then Swindon were home and well almost dry.
And three more points takes them right back into the battle for the promotion play-off.
And now to the third of our special reports to find out what businesses from our region are learning from the Florida experience.
Marconi Electronic Devices of Swindon have no real market in the U K for one of their most important products, an electronic tag used to keep tracks of people on remand or probation as an alternative to imprisonment.
Florida was the first place in the world to try out the scheme, in spite the cynics who said it wouldn't work.
Electronic tagging has proved successful in both the remand and probation services in West Palm Beach, Florida.
For the defendant it means a life without the restrictions and overcrowding of prison, where the only contact with the family is at visiting times.
It's helped many people start on a new life away from crime and that's good news for Marconi Electronic Devices of Swindon who design and manufacture the electronic tags.
Originally they were cumbersome, but Marconi have now designed a lightweight model.
The idea has had opponents who claim its an easy option for people who would otherwise be behind bars.
Nevertheless, Judge Edward Garrison went against the general feeling of his colleagues and gave the idea its trial run.
I don't believe the programme has taken off here as rapidly as it possibly could have had all the judges been as enthusiastic as I was in the beginning, but I would say 5 to 10 per cent of the sentenced people now are at least given that option.
I started it basically on my own initiative and I said that for six months I would use it on people that I was going to sentence just to maintain a one judge control over the project and see how it was going.
Before the end of the six months was up the other judges were trying to steal the devices and put their own people on it.
For what sort of offences would you recommend it?
We started out on a pilot project here in late 1984, with very minor offences.
We were using it for drunk driving offenders and repeat traffic offenders, not so much because I felt they were the only people who were appropriate for it, but because we wanted to make sure we started with a group who were not likely to get into major trouble should the project not work out.
As a sentencing judge you are always looking for options erm a variety of options to impose so that each individual sentence that you impose on a defendant is tailored to either the rehabilitation or the punishment ends of sentencing.
From a practical standpoint we are suffering from some jail overcrowding problems here and certainly this was one option to take an offender who doesn't really belong behind iron bars and punish them at home, and from a personal standpoint I was sort of intrigued with the novelty of it all and the technology aspects of it.
The scheme was extended to more serious offenders.
A woman from Texas saw that there was a growing for advice for the police, probation service and private monitoring companies about in-house arrest, the American name for electronic tagging.
It's her job to point out ways the system can be used to everyone's advantage.
probation officer with the state in Texas and they decide they want a trial at monitoring and they ask if I would be interested and so we begin the programme, the first in-house operative programme in Texas, and we set up our programme from scratch and started just kind of working on trial and error  trying to make the thing worked.
What I have always said is that way you set up supervision behind the programme is the most crucial, so therefore if I can sit down and help them to set up the most strenuous type of supervision to go along with the equipment, then they feel safe and the community feel safer that none of them will go out and commit another crime.
The British Government is eager to try out new methods for dealing with remand prisoners.
The go-ahead has already been given to build privately run remand centres.
Home Office officials from Britain went to West Palm Beach to see how electronic tagging systems are working there before introducing a trial run for people on probation in Nottingham later this year.
If the Nottingham test proves as successful as the system seems to have worked in Florida, it could mean even better business for Marconi in Swindon who promise more jobs.
In Swindon we are obviously delighted because all of the production of the equipment, all the design and the research, is all carried out at Swindon except for the software, which is provided by C S I.
We actually believe that our dedicated production line will require expansion later in the year.
Tomorrow night we hear about another business success story from the region, but again they sell most of their products in the U S A.
The story of Oxford Medical tomorrow on Central News South.
Gloucestershire's ambulance service is giving itself a new look.
The traditional red stripe, common to all ambulance fleets, is to be replaced by a striking green and yellow design.
It is thought that the old style ambulances are becoming indistinguishable from many normal commercial vehicles and that something more eyecatching was needed.
Gloucestershire is the first of many ambulance services intending to adopt the new livery and they hope eventually to have it on their whole fleet.
Sooner or later it seems everything becomes collectable; old telephone boxes, ancient park benches, and now the hunt is on for  lamp posts, from all over the world, as Richard Hudson-Evans reports.
The visitors are beginning to tie up in Stratford.
Another tourist season is underway, but a vintage lamp post from Dublin is hardly very Shakespearean and yet it's all part of an illuminating plan.
These are the first fruits of a beginning letter to all the London embassies.
Too large to go in the diplomatic bags, the first monster packing cases containing old lamp posts have started to arrive in Warwickshire County Council's Highways Depot on Dunchurch.
Just put it down on the side there.
Don't drop it whatever you do.
The old street lamps of the world are on their way to Stratford.
Where's this one from then?
I think this one's from Portugal.
Wouldn't it be nice if overseas pilgrims to Shakespeare's town had something to remind them of home, and there's nothing quite so familiar as a lamp post just like the one on the corner back home in Lisbon perhaps.
We started off by writing to the embassies in London and all of the embassies that we tried were very enthusiastic, but we were surprised a the first country that actually supplied a column was Hungary.
Apparently in Hungary Shakespeare is very well read and very well thought of.
So that was the first one to arrive crated up to the London embassy.
We haven't as yet had one from America, or indeed from Japan, but we're hopeful.
We hope that when the others are erected that they will consider themselves left out and perhaps join in.
So, the appeal to visitors from Texas or Tokyo is ‘send Stratford your old lamp posts to complete the set’.
I should think the dogs of Stratford-upon-Avon are delighted with the council's collection!
Well, yesterday's forecast promised you snow, and this was the result.
Drivers faced a tricky journey to work.
Snow settled across the countryside and bitter winds forced those in exposed areas to take shelter and dream of summer and the tropical temperatures of last week.
You can see the cloud that brought today's snow has been feeding up into the country from northern France and it will continue to do so for at least the next day or so.
Tonight will see most of the rain and snow die away, with only occasional showers over the higher ground and in the east of the region.
It will feel rather cold, with temperatures falling to a minimum of 2 Celsius, 36 Fahrenheit.
Tomorrow morning will be mostly dry, with any thicker cloud in the east of the region and only light rain or drizzle over the Cotswolds.
Everywhere is still very chilly, with temperatures slow to pick up.
There'll be very little change in the afternoon, with again any light rain or drizzle confined to the higher ground.
Top temperature 6 Celsius, 43 Fahrenheit, but feeling colder in places exposed to a fresh northeasterly wind.
And now a look at tonight's main stories.
South Africa has threatened to stop Namibia's independence process after clashes with nationalist rebels.
The director of public prosecutions has given the driver in the Purley train crash limited immunity from charges.
The Soviet leader, Mikhail Gorbachev, will arrive in London tonight to begin talks with Mrs Thatcher.
2,000 extra security officers have been brought in.
Work has begun to refloat the oil tanker which caused pollution off Alaska.
David Gower is the new England cricket captain.
And the FTSE 100 shares index is down 4.6 at 2,078.2 and the pound is worth 1 dollar and 70 cents.
The end of quite an international edition of Central News I'd say.
And I see you've got the longest trip to the sunniest country  .
We'll both be back tomorrow night, so please try and join us then.
Goodnight.
Goodnight.
240 jobs to go at rocket research plant that pioneered Blue Streak.
Hunger striker by the pub philosopher who wants Gorbachev to have him returned to Czechoslovakia.
And the brothers who are getting all steamed up about their driving test.
Good evening.
First tonight 250 jobs are to go at the Royal Ordnance Rocket Research Plant which pioneered the infamous Blue Streak project.
The losses are blamed on the lack of research cash and the need to reorganise, but union leaders says the cuts are cosmetic and unnecessary and they may consider industrial action.
Kim Barnes reports.
The Royal Ordnance site at Westcote near Aylesbury has been at the forefront of rocket research and development since it was set up in 1946.
It's design teams were behind the Blue Streak rocket in the 60s, followed by the Blood Hound and Sea Wolf.
Now Ordnance say 250 jobs will go as part of reorganization, blaming lack of funding for research.
They say Westcote will remain a centre of excellence for research, design, development and production of liquid engines, but solid fuel powered motors will be moved to Summerfield near Kidderminster, while the Waltham Abbey plant will close.
Staff who'd long feared redundancies were on the cards hear the news at meetings today.
We're very expensive they tell us.
What was the reaction of the unions to that.
Very calm this morning.
I don't think it sunk in much.
We'll protest, but whether it will get us anywhere I don't know.
Ordnance, owned by British Aerospace since 1985, says there's duplication and under-use, but union leaders are sceptical that job losses are the answer.
I find it difficult to understand how they are going to carry on experimental work at other depots that aren't really equipped to carry out experimental work, and so for that reason, I mean, there's a great deal of concern that these cuts aren't rather more cosmetic that they've been made out to be.
Although British Aerospace are saying that all the work is going to be carried out, one begins to have some doubts and fears as to whether or not that's 100 per cent true.
It's not yet known how the job losses will be distributed amongst the 440 staff.
Some may be offered jobs at other sites.
Negotiations with the unions are just beginning as to how the blow will fall.
The Russians are obviously impressed by the standard of schools in Cheltenham.
An exact replica of one of them is being shipped to Armenia, right down to blackboards and chalk, but it's taken top level agreement between Mr Gorbachev and Mrs Thatcher to make it happen.
Tim Hurst reports.
400 Armenian schoolchildren are being taught in tents since earthquakes destroyed their school in Lininecarn killing 52 children and 6 teachers.
Next month work will start on the levelled site, building a new school with a complete construction kit from England, a replica from a primary school in Cheltenham.
It's based on a design that's earthquake-proof.
A steel frame, bolted together, which can be finished in a matter of months, before the Armenian winter sets in with temperatures of 40 degrees below freezing, it's the brainchild of a school consultancy from Gloucester, but it's taken agreement between Mikhail Gorbachev and Margaret Thatcher at today's Downing Street talks to make it happen.
And that agreement follows advice from the design consultants in Gloucester.
Our system of construction has been used for many years all over this country, by the sponsoring authorities and others, and erm we don't have the earthquake requirements, but we do need many high value schools both quickly and on time, and we've completed something like 2,000 projects similar to this over many years.
So the school's package has been used widely used in Britain, but this time the designers had to switch to Russian to get their ideas across.
It could be the first of dozens of identical schools in Armenia, and the five million pound cost is being partly met by the British Armenia Appeal.
All the contractors have agreed to do it at cost.
They'll take no profit from this deal to get Russian children back to school.
President Gorbachev's visit has promoted a Czech dissident to go on hunger strike.
Dr. Julius Tomlin made international headlines when he was appointed the Philosopher in Residence at a Swindon pub.
He started his ten day fast to try to get his Czech nationality papers back so he can visit his homeland.
Here's Martin Dawes.
An Oxford bedsit is home for the philosopher who took on the Czechoslovakian secret state.
It cost him his papers, the Czechs bounced them in 1981 while Dr. Tomlin was visiting fellow academics in Oxford.
His refuge for the hunger strike will be the Swindon pub that pays him to lecture to punters on Plato.
His contract for five talks is the only paying work he's got.
Dr. Tomlin has written a letter to Mr Gorbachev explaining about his hunger strike, and asking for support to help make him a Czech national again.
The News at One.
Mrs Thatcher gives Mr Gorbachev the warmest of welcomes as they start their talks at Number Ten.
While Mrs Thatcher and the Soviet leader settle down to a lunch of veal glazed with mustard and rosemary, washed down by Chateau Margot, Dr. Tomlin only allows himself French water and sea salt.
He sees the visit and his ten day denial of food as a way of focussing attention.
It's a unique opportunity to do something really strong for the sake of the restoration of my citizenship, while at the same time by that of course I'm doing something for the human rights of every single citizen in Czechoslovakia.
Do you think Mr Gorbachev will take any notice of you?
Well I would like to hope that he would take notice of my letter even if I wouldn't get any support from British Press.
In an upstairs bedroom earmuffs will help Dr. Tomlin to rest and pray during his fast.
As a philosopher he says he doesn't know if God exists.
His prayer is ‘God if you are, give me strength’.
A motorist has been killed in crash with a lorry in Oxfordshire.
The accident happened on the A 43 near Baynards Green.
The dead man, who hasn't been named, had to be cut free from his car.
And a seriously injured motorist was airlifted to hospital by helicopter after a head-on crash at Shipton-under-Wychwood.
Emergency services were called to clear oil and diesel from the road.
And wet roads have made driving conditions treacherous in many parts of the region.
In Gloucestershire a woman was trapped by her legs after a two-car collision on the A 46 at Cleeve Hill near Cheltenham.
She was cut free by firemen and is now recovering in hospital.
Staff and patients have finally been moved out of a unique hospital ward.
The Beeson Ward at the Radcliffe Infirmary in Oxford has pioneered a new type of nursing, but it's being closed down because the local Health Authority says it doesn't have enough money to keep it going.
Cathy Alexander reports.
Nursing staff at the famous Beeson Ward had hoped for a last minute reprieve, but the Health Authority stuck by its decision to close down the only ward in the country where nurses, not doctors, have the responsibility for admitting and discharging patients.
The last few patients, mainly elderly, have now been moved to other hospitals and today staff were sadly clearly up after a farewell party, three and a half years after the research ward opened.
I've been here since the start, three and a half years, and it's just so sad.
It was here when it started and the ward was empty and I've watched it fill up, and now I'm watching it empty again.
How did the patients react when they were moved out this week?
Very upset, very upset indeed.
I think the atmosphere is certainly lost and the environment is different today without the patients, and their attitude was that this was more like a family than a hospital ward and they were treated as family.
And that was very special to them, but also special to us as well.
When it opened the ward was heralded as a new way forward in nursing care.
It was unusual because specialist nurses did much of the doctors' work.
Patients were those in need of primary nursing care and rehabilitation.
There was much more teamwork between nurses and doctors than normally takes place in hospitals.
Qualified nurses were therefore able to extend their knowledge and build close relationships with their patients.
But the ward's life as a teaching an research place is now over.
It's 22 staff are being redeployed.
Oxford Health Authority says it cannot afford the £200,000 each year to keep it going.
There is one ray of hope, though.
The Authority is talking about a new unit, similar to Beeson, with 16 new beds.
A decision will be made on that later this month.
200 hospital clerical workers from all over Oxfordshire, who are working to rule, have voted to suspend their action.
The Health Authority has agreed.
The Health Authority has agreed to hold further talks about regrading and pay.
At a mass meeting today members of NALGO agreed to work normally until the results of that meeting, on April 17, are known.
A man accused of killing stamp dealer failed to appear in court because there weren't enough prison officers to escort him.
Timothy Spencer, who's 21, is accused of murdering 60 year old Willy Day at his home in Cheltenham in Gloucestershire.
The court was told there's a shortage of officers at the prison where Spencer is being held.
He's due to appear before the court tomorrow.
Police investigating the death of the Gloucester teenager, Kirk Douglas, say a car chase may hold a vital clue to the case.
Kirk Douglas died last month after an alleged stabbing incident as his home in Bridge Street.
Police are now appealing for witnesses to a daytime car chase through the Tredworth area of the city.
It's believed four vehicles were involved in the chase; a white pick- up truck, a red Datsun Cherry, and two Saabs.
Two men are being held in police custody, charged with Mr Douglas's murder.
Still to come in part two, the stage revival that even the wicked old witch won't be able to stop.
And the brothers who are going flat out to lose their L-plates.
Hello again.
A firm from Oxfordshire has just launched the latest equipment to help doctors find out more about heart and brain illnesses, but much of it won't ever be used in Britain.
Oxford Medical has fought off worldwide competition for a major slice of the lucrative American market where health is big business.
Oxford Medical, whose headquarters are in Abingdon, are world leaders in the field of instruments for research into cardiology and neurology.
The specialise in equipment which monitors the heart and sleep.
All the company's research, development and manufacturing takes place in Abingdon, but less than 10 per cent of their products stay in the U K.
The bulk are sold in the U S A and Oxford recently won a Queen's Award for export achievement.
The company has made huge advances by introducing solid state and microchip technology, which means they can process results faster than ever before.
Traditionally, 24 hours of heart beat would be recorded on a device using a cassette tape, which works perfectly well, but it has the obvious problems of mechanical parts, moving parts, it makes a noise that might keep you awake at night.
But over the last year or so we've developed a solid state equivalent, which has no moving parts at all.
The replacement for the cassette is a bank of memory chips and that  twenty four hours of your heart beats.
Oxford Medical's work in sleep monitoring is also said to help people suffering from epilepsy or sleep disorders.
The subject will actually come into the sleep laboratory in the afternoon, would be wired up to the small box, would go home, essentially carrying just a normal briefcase, a businessman from the office or whatever.
When they get home, when they go to bed, they put the briefcase on the floor beside the bed and we will be taking into here signals from their brain, from their eye movement and also from their chin, because when people sleep we actually move the different stages of sleep.
The results are recorded on a tape which the doctor can playback to monitor brain signals, eye movements and breathing.
One can actually see on this trace a period here where there was no airflow, so in this particular period the subject would not be breathing.
The body's mechanism takes over because the logical consequence of that would be to die, and we can see here that there is an arousal of something like eight to ten seconds, and during that period the patient would wake up, probably not sufficient that they would know about it in the morning, and we can see here that the breathing starts again.
Once the equipment is ready, it's packed for export to Oxford centres all over the world.
The company's North American headquarters is in Clearwater, Florida.
They also look after sales for Latin America and the Caribbean.
Competition is fierce and this is where American marketing methods have to be used to help British products compete.
One of the biggest differences is telemarketing, where a group of specially trained sales people ring doctors and hospitals all day long to try to encourage them to buy Oxford Medical's products.
And who would ever dream of putting sex appeal into a campaign to sell medical instruments in the U K?
and we put a little sex appeal into it and turn it into what I thought was a very contemporary, viable and graphic arts piece that would be very broadly hung on the wall and used.
That particular model is the result of two different casting calls.
We saw probably a total of 24 different young men from a professional model agency.
Everything was very legitimate and above board, but we had very specific requirements of what we wanted this representation to be, because it is life size.
So how does the team in Clearwater cope with being so far from the Abingdon headquarters?
One of the most difficult things is not being able to have the impromptu meetings with your colleagues.
We do rely very heavily on the telephone and the fax.
Many of us are in here at seven o'clock in the morning because that is noon time over there and so we only have about half a day to work together.
In spite of the distance from home, this little bit of Oxford appears to have a bright future in the U S A, in spite of the competition from 35 other companies and there are plans for special videos to be made so that the employees in Clearwater can learn something of what life is like for their counterparts in Abingdon.
Tomorrow night on Central News South we meet the Rover Group's man in America, Graham Morris, and there's new about what might lie in store for British people thinking of emigrating or setting up business in this .
The first opera ever to be staged in England is to be recreated to celebrate its 300th anniversary.
Dido and Anaeas by Henry Purcell, was originally performed in 1689 to commemorate a world coronation.
Now a school choir from Oxford is performing it using period costume to reflect the era in which it was written.
Martin Graham-Scott was at the dress rehearsal.
Purcell's Dido and Anaeas is a singing and dancing production of the tragic mythological tale.
Dido is the Queen of Carthage, Anaeas is the King of Troy, but their love is to be destroyed by a wicked sorceress.
Now Oxford Girls Choir is putting on England's first opera to celebrate its 300th anniversary, with performances at Abingdon, Oxford and London.
To recreate Purcell's era, the director has chosen to use the dance and costume of the seventeenth century.
It's been a bit difficult because we are used to doing the things that choirs do, having music and hiding behind it, and of course getting the girls to be uninhibited has been a bit difficult, but they've taken to it very well actually and having the costumes for today's rehearsals has been a great help.
Richard Vendome invited musicians from the Royal College of Music and the male voices from Tiffin School in London.
The age of the cast ranges from 12 to 19 and the whole production has been put together in just three months.
Anaeas is in love with Dido but is told that he must leave in order to save trial.
So he has to go back home and leave her and in telling her of course he breaks her heart.
There's not a great deal for me to say, but I seem to spend most of my time on stage.
I have to stand there, like some sort of statute I think, and let everybody act around me.
She's a woman in love, so she's very melodramatic and a bit neurotic and there's lots of  to do, but it's good fun.
You can really get into the part if you have to play somebody upset.
We leave the second part to the sorceress who's the really strong character in the whole play to spoil this love match and she sends the spirit of herself in the form of the God Mercury to deceive Anaeas into saying he's got to go away, so he goes and tells Dido he must leave and of course Dido's heartbroken and she commits suicide and of course this is celebrated with the famous lament at the end of the opera.
The first performance takes place here at the Unicorn theatre in Abingdon tomorrow.
Then it's on to Oxford and Crosby Hall in Chelsea, where the opera is thought to have been originally performed.
Well worth having a look at.
Three drivers will be burning their L-plates tonight after passing their driving tests first time, but, as John Kane, reports besides needing good road sense the men had to be pretty nifty with a shovel full of coal.
Any driving test is a nerve wracking experience.
There's just time for a quick flip through the Highway Code and then your , but the test is even more daunting when you're taking it on a 15 ton steam roller.
Today two brothers and the engine's owner are hoping to convince the man from the Ministry of Transport that they're confident to drive on public roads.
Were they worried?
Well, no not really.
We'll just do our best and see how we get on.
We ain't going to fast today and giving some hand signals and just see how we get on.
I've got the Highway Code in front of me and it says that at 30 miles an hour the stopping distance is 75 foot.
Do you know what the stopping distance is for 4 miles an hour?
You're going to be talking about, on a steam engine, about 25 yards I should think.
That augers well for the emergency stop.
Don't tell the 3 L-drivers this, but in all his 10 years of examining, Barry Silk has never tested anyone on a steam roller.
But, are the vehicles safe?
They're safe provided they're driven safely.
Unfortunately on the main roads nowadays, because of the faster traffic, they've got to be very aware of what's going on around them.
First to go was a rather nervous Richard Crout with Jesse, a 1908 steam roller, belching out smoke he gingerly took to the roads.
The course was simple; from the layby, up the road, a three point turn  then back again.
So was examiner Silk going to throw himself in front of the roller for the statutory emergency stop?
Most certainly not.
A wise man.
Well, after answering questions on the Highway Code, Barry Silk told Roger he's passed.
Then it was brother Alan's turn to get behind the wheel and he passed.
Finally, after 180 gallons of water and three hundredweight of coal going through Jesse, Gerry Williams made it third time lucky.
Now all three drivers would be zooming around Gloucestershire's roads.
Look out for them.
No such luck I'm afraid for a car swindler who's been gaoled for two years after he was caught boarding the same holiday flight as his victim.
Windsor Crown Court heard that Carolyn Fellowes from Redditch tipped off the police after getting the man's name from a baggage label as he tried to board the same flight as she was from Birmingham Airport.
The judge said that he didn't know what the odds of such an event were, but it was bad luck for the man and good luck for justice.
The cloud is quite a bit thinner than yesterday, but the sequence still shows movement from east to west, which isn't good news when the north sea is cold.
So a cloudy night with further light rain at times and some sleet on the Cotswolds.
Misty as well, with hill fog, but the temperature no lower than 2 Celsius, 36 Fahrenheit.
Friday will start off grey and misty, still with some light rain around.
The temperature will struggle to rise and it will start to brighten, especially in the south.
The slow improvement will continue into the afternoon with the prospect of quite a bit of dry weather.
There may even be a few glimpses of the sun with the temperature up to 8 Celsius, 46 Fahrenheit and with very little wind.
To summarise then; tonight will be cloudy with light rain or mist, tomorrow starting wet or misty, but brighter in the afternoon.
Well last night's arctic weather didn't just cause chaos on the roads.
Many people wisely stayed at home, and that left one theatre in Cirencester without and audience.
Tina Monahan reports.
The latest production of Terence Rattigan's In Praise of Love has everything; passion, intrigue and humour.
The only thing it didn't have last night was an audience.
It was very odd.
It was like being in a sort of ghost theatre and it was terribly forlorn.
Nobody appeared.
Of course we were very disappointed because we were geared for it, and we were prepared to play even to two or three people in the audience.
The bad weather is being blamed for the empty seats, but now it's cleared up they are confident of full houses until the run ends on April 15th.
A look now at tonight's main headlines.
Mr Gorbachev and Mrs Thatcher met at Number Ten for talks described as deep, wide-ranging, and very friendly.
The Trade Secretary, Lord Young, and the Soviet Deputy Prime Minister have signed an agreement to increase Anglo-Soviet trade by 40 per cent.
Scotland Yard is investigating Buckingham Palace security after the apparent theft of private letters from the Princess Royal.
The tanker which ran aground in Alaska, spilling millions of gallons of oil, has been refloated.
There are fears of further leaks as it's towed away.
The FTSE 100 shares index closed down 25.27 at 2,052.5 and the pound is worth one dollar and seventy cents.
And that's Central News South tonight.
Please join us again tomorrow evening.
Goodnight.
Goodnight.
Home Secretary speaks out against rural violence as judge calls for special reforms on lager louts.
Low tax transport, the way to beat those high tide blues.
And the flying mattresses, the R A F looks back 50 years.
Good evening.
Once again rural violence is the main story in our programme.
A crown court judge calls for an enquiry into lager louts as he was trying two 18 year old men for affray after a pub fight.
Judge Clarke said he was very concerned at continuing violence in Oxfordshire.
In a moment we'll be hearing the Home Secretary's comments on the problem.
But first Martin Dawes from one of the towns that has put Oxfordshire top of the league table for violence in England.
Wallingford, picturesque and affluent; a starter home here costs £70,000.
It's the kind of place that's put Oxfordshire at the top of the lager lout league.
Today's case came out of a fight hear at the Coachmaker's Arms, but the landlord says the days of Wallingford's louts are numbered.
Police and publicans have united to solve the problem.
The guys know that if they come in here, if they do cause any problem they get banned from here and they get banned from every other pub in the town.
It's quite a nice little town, everybody knows everybody, and they don't like to feel that they're going to be outside of the sort of social circle that they move in, so it does have that effect in keeping them under control.
If a youth is banned, the message is telephoned that night from pub to pub.
Senior police officers in the last nine months have made alcohol related crime a top priority.
From the police point of view we feel it's been solved and solved quite well.
We've had very  since the trouble, certainly over the past month since Christmas.
And that's a situation that's been welcomed by Wallingford's drinking public.
I think it's because erm a lot of the pub  such as ourselves are just fed up with them  we're all as one now and we think well you know we won't have it in our pubs.
Wallingford had a bad reputation for louts.
They may have solved it.
Other towns in Oxfordshire are still grappling with the problem.
The Home Secretary, Douglas Hurd, was in Bicester to plant a tree on the site of the new headquarters for Thames Valley Police.
He says the force has started to crack down on rural violence and he blamed much of the trouble on young people drinking too much.
Well the first thing is to make sure that the magistrates and the police use their licencing powers to crack down on illegal drinking, that is to say under age drinking, and to crack down on unruly pubs and the hours that discos are open and that's beginning to happen.
I think there's been a bit of improvement this year compared to last.
In a speech at today's tree-planting ceremony, the Chief Constable of Thames Valley, Colin Smith, repeated his force's demand for more officers to fight the increasing level of crime.
The force wants 800 officers of the next four years; they've only been given 44 this year.
But Mr Hurd says there could be more available.
Next year I'm working out, or will soon be working out, with the Treasury a further substantial programme of increases and the Thames Valley bid will of course be looked at as part of that programme.
But it will never be solved simply by having more police officers.
I mean even if you double the size of the Thames Valley force you wouldn't have a police officer outside every pub.
It's got to be done by actually tackling the people who are going to be violent by preventing them being violent.
And how do you do that?
Well, preventing them filling themselves with drink.
As Britain's major ports teeter on the brink of a national dock strike, one of the smallest ports in the land has stopped work.
Sharpness on the Severn estuary normally handles hundreds of ships and thousands of tons of cargo a year, but that all stopped at lunchtime when the dockers walked out.
Tim Hurst reports.
When the dockers walked out at Sharpness, responding to the Government's plants to scrap their jobs for life guarantee under the National Dock Labour Board Scheme, they surprised their own union officials as well as the management.
It's quite surprising really, because you see the dockers at Sharpness are not a militant bunch anyway and the last thing I anticipated was a walk out by their guys this morning.
Normally they would have waited until such time as the national ballot had been held and then they would have taken the appropriate action afterwards.
There are just 47 registered dockers at Sharpness, and the port handles hundreds of thousands of tons of cargo each year.
Timber is the fastest growing import underlined by the arrival last month of the largest timber carrier ever to dock at Sharpness.
The port's proud of its expanding operations and senior staff expected work to continue normally, pending a national strike ballot.
There was a lot of reluctance to take the action they have, at the same time the scheme has been in being since 1946.
It is important.
It is a major move in the dock industry.
They are obviously concerned about their future.
Shipping agents are alarmed at the consequences of any strike.
They've been trying to find alternative berths for incoming cargoes and negotiating the release of ships waiting to sail on the night time.
We can supply a reasonable dispute.
As a company, as a port, well you must ask the Port Authority.
Dockers at Sharpness are expected to return to work on Monday, although they've been reluctant to speculate on any future action.
An inquest has been told that a five year girl chocked to death on a plastic bottle plug.
Emma Osterfield from Aylesbury in Buckinghamshire had been drawing sketches while drinking from a bottle.
The court heard that she showed the picture to her father, Geoff.
Seconds later he heard her choking and was unable to revive her.
The Coroner recorded an accidental death verdict.
The man accused of killing a pregnant mother on the M 50 motorway has petitioned the House of Commons for a prison transfer.
Edward Browning is accused of murdering Marie Wilkes on the motorway in June last year.
Browning is being held on remand at Winsom Green Prison in Birmingham, but he says his defence is being prejudiced because his solicitor to travel for five hours from Wales to see him.
Browning wants a transfer to Cardiff prison.
A £10,000 reward is being offered for information leading to the capture of the gang involved in the Sulgrave Manor antiques raid.
Thieves broke into George Washington's ancestral home in Northamptonshire a week ago and escaped with a haul of historic antiques worth up to £3 million.
Police say they hope the reward will encourage people to come forward.
As thousands of bargain hunters queued up to two hours for a sale of stock damaged by a fire at Dickens and Jones in Milton Keynes, the store announced it's to halt the sale of animal furs.
The site was gutted by a blaze in January and it's believed animal rights protestors were involved.
A spokesman said the fur ban had been introduced purely on commercial grounds.
A man who suffered a massive heart attack in a pub garden returned today to thank the ambulancemen and others who saved his life.
He was resussitated by a new heart monitor, bought for the ambulance by a local fir.
Cathy Alexander reports.
Ray Hughes collapsed while having a lunchtime drink at his local with his wife Pat.
It wasn't his first heart attack, but certainly the worst.
The paramedics turned up within ten minutes and as they turned up I passed out, so they applied the defibrillator to my chest and the next thing I knew from one minute to sitting talking to them I knew I was on the ground and they'd brought me round.
And the team who saved him returned to meet the family again today in rather happier circumstances.
Even the most experienced paramedic could have done little to help Ray without this up-to-date portable heart fibrillator.
These new ones obviously, five years on from the other models, they offer a lot more technology.
With the microchip they are able to do a lot more.
The good thing about having the machines on the vehicle are that we can give him that electric shock as opposed to taking him to the hospital to have that electric shock.
Such monitors cost around £5,000.
An appeal is well under way to buy one for each of the county's 30 ambulances.
The equipment which saved Ray was bought by the Thame business United Biscuits, and some of the staff who contributed were also at the pub today to meet the man who owes his life to their generosity.
George Waldron, the MP for Buckingham, says he's shocked by the loss of 250 jobs at the Westcote Rocket Research Plant.
Mr Waldron was visiting the site as unions and management continue negotiations about cuts.
The Royal Ordnance says they are due to a shortage of cash for research.
It hopes some workers can be redeployed at other sites.
Mr Waldron says the company should now offer generous redundancy terms.
They have gone through privatization and ceased being Civil Servants and gone out into the cold and now they are suffering this blow, so they do, I think, deserve the most generous possible treatment.
To the progress , the most expensive contract ever agreed.
Construction are building the Banbury bypass section of the M 40.
The seven miles of road will cost the government £52 million.
A stone barn has been demolished in spite of protests from people living nearby.
There was an  in Swindon have managed to get the work delayed by threatening to lie down in front of bulldozers.
They claim the building was 300 years old and should be restored, but Thamesdown Council decided the building was unsafe and had to go.
R A F Benson in Oxfordshire celebrates its 50th anniversary this week.
No doubt there'll be many reminiscences in the Officers' Mess, but some parts of its history may never be told.
The top secret unit based there in the war worked directly under orders from Winston Churchill.
R A F Benson's birthday party will last well into this summer, with a series of events and special Royal guests.
V I Ps gathering for tonight's anniversary dinner brought memories of all the station's finest hours.
Air Chief Marshall Sir Neil Wheeler, for example, was Flight Commander of the Fairy Battle aircraft, the first to fly at the new airfield.
Their task was to train pilots, observers and air gunners, men only recently signed up and grateful for any preparation, however basic.
They learn to aim at miniature planes.
We all know the result of the R A F's careful training methods, a wonderful of record of enemy planes shot down.
The British plan being a scientific destruction of military targets, as opposed to the Nazi's indiscriminate methods, our personnel go through a course of instruction taking several months.
By 1941 Spitfires arrived at Benson and the base became to the top secret photo reconnaissance unit.
Their solo missions over enemy territory were critical to the war planning and they often worked directly with Winston Churchill and the Cabinet.
They were absolutely vital.
I mean I don't think there was a major military operation, land, sea or indeed air, that wasn't the result of pre- planning using our photographs.
After the Dambusters raid on the Mona and Ida dams the photo- reconnaissance pilots were despatched to the dangerous airspace above them to assess the success of the mission.
Aerial reconnaissance attend an amazing picture of the actual breech in the dam.
Here it is, a breech at least a hundred yards long and the power station has been swept away.
Their photos were a morale boost and a propaganda coup to the allies.
And the Bismark, launched as the unsinkable battleship by Hitler, was destroyed after the Reconnaissance Unit spotted her at sea.
After the War the King's Flight reformed at Benson, now of course the Queen's Flight, and the station has welcomed all the Royal pilots at various stages in their flying careers.
Today Benson is a major station within number one group of strike command, with duties ranging from servicing the R A F's Andover and Wessex aircraft, to flying Andovers to all military airfields here, in Germany, Cyprus and Belize, to calibrate radars and landing approach aids.
Tonight they'll be toasting 50 active and important years, raising their glasses to a nostalgic fly- past by a lone Spitfire.
Now a story just in.
Three people are to sue health authorities after contracting the H I V virus in local hospitals.
It's been  that more than 100 people are now H I V positive after treatment at Oxford hospitals.
Kim Barnes reports.
Three haemophiliacs have issued writs against the Oxfordshire Regional Health Authority and the Oxford District Health Authority alleging negligence between 1984 and 85.
They need regular injections of Factor 8, some of which came into this country infected with the AIDS virus.
Since 1986 all blood has been heat treated and there have been no cases since then.
The Haemophilia Society say they support the cases.
A spokesman said infected haemophiliacs wanted compensation for the damage done.
Patients from all over the area come here to the Regional Haemophilia Centre at the Churchill Hospital at Headington.
It's now known that more than 100 people are H I V positive following treatment here.
The Regional Health Authority tonight described it as a tragic story.
They are still considering their response to the writs.
With law cases pending throughout the country, it remains to be seen how many more patients infected at the Churchill decide to take legal action.
Still to come, we look ahead to the greatest horse race in the world.
What odds would you give for a Central South winner.
And riding along on the crest of the A 48, join us in part two.
So who's going to win the Grand National?
That's the question they'll be asking in the pubs and clubs tonight.
Just about everyone flicks through the racing pages and either studies the form, thinks of a lucky number or name, or just plunges in the pin.
Tonight we'll devote all our time to the National as here in Central South we have eleven horses running at Aintree, in what's regarded as one of the greatest horse races in the world.
Meet Dixton House, the favourite for the Grand National.
The folk who live at nearby Ross-on-Wye have never had so many callers.
The early morning sun of Herefordshire has shone like a beacon to the racing world this week.
They've been coming from afar to pay homage to the king of Carradock Court Stables.
On the gallops they've huddled in against the hedgerows to watch and study the form.
John Edwards is the trainer.
He's sending out two National horses this year.
Bob Tistall also has a good chance, but it's Dixton House everyone is talking about.
I would love to win the race.
Obviously I think every trainer would.
Dixton House is very well handicapped.
He's a class horse.
I think the ground will suit him.
He's a good jumper and must have a very, very good chance.
We'll have to have a lot of luck in running.
While Dixton House has been lapping up the attention, his jockey, Tom Morgan, has been having a hard time.
As you tuck into your tea tonight spare a thought for him.
This week Tom has been living on a glass of water, half a cup of tea and just one small dinner a day.
Three year old son Andrew's been eating more as Tom's been ordered to lose weight.
I'd say 7 pounds  for the frame  daily.
I'm just trying to keep my strength up.
Dixton House has a history of leg trouble.
He's only run twice in the last year, but he couldn't have better owners.
Here's two of them, local businessman Terry Collett and Peter Hill, Chairman of Hereford United Soccer Club.
So what's it like to be an owner on the eve of the Grand National?
Oh, a tremendous feeling.
It really is exciting and something which it's difficult to express and even better if we can do something for Herefordshire and bring back a winner.
All three of us, we have another partner, Michael Roberts, who isn't with us; actually he's up at Aintree at the moment watering the course   but all three of us are highly excited.
And this  your lucky brown Derby.
I bought it last week at Cheltenham and we came home and it's already polished ready for Aintree on Saturday.
So let's hope it's raised in the air on Saturday afternoon.
Absolutely right .
It'll be hats of to this man if Dixton House does win.
He bred him.
Michael Scudamore, a man rich on race memories, father of champion jockey, Peter.
Mr Scudamore has his very own place in Grand National history.
His record of sixteen consecutive rides at Aintree still stands and he's one of the lucky few who've won the national.
Away they go.
It's a field of 34, including a strong contingent from Ireland.
It was exactly 30 years ago, on a horse called Oxo.
It's a thing you just dream about all your life.
I mean erm going to school I used to dream about it and then it came true, you know, I mean.
I think the National  but when you win its your fairy tale come true.
A terrific finish to four and a half miles of the world's greatest steeplechase.
A very close thing, but it's Oxo's National by a length and a half.
If you want a fairy tale finish this year, here's the horse to follow, Gala's Image.
Home is Kingsley Stables in Worcestershire.
Home for seventy years to the Rimer family.
Five National winners have come from here, great names too such as E S B and Nicholas Silver.
Four were trained by the late Fred Rimer.
His widow, Mrs Mercy Rimer, has carried on the tradition these past few years, but this season will be her last.
The lease runs out in May and on Saturday the Rimers will send out their last Grand National horse.
I've been raising all my life.
I mean it has been my life, and it's obviously the most enormous wrench when you've suddenly got to do something entirely different.
I don't know what.
The National has something about it.
I think Aintree has a sort of charisma.
I don't know what it is.
I can't explain to you, but it's different to any other meeting.
So what thoughts will be going through your mind when you send out the last Grand National runner?
I suppose lots of happy thoughts of, you know, when we won it, and sad thoughts that I haven't Fred to share it.
If Gala's Image wins, and he has a great chance, the tears of celebration will flow.
A racing legend will have waved goodbye with greatness.
Another romantic winner would be Numerate's jockey, Tania Davis, the only lady riding in the National.
Believe it or not Numerate arrived at the stables of Tania's father, Peter, yesterday.
He bought the horse for his daughter to ride at Aintree.
Now before you bet your penny or pound, here's the Central South Guide to the Grand National.
Can any of our horses conquer the Aintree course, Beecher's Brook and all?
The going will be heavy.
John Edwards has two bites of the cherry.
Recent form is on the left.
A warning, only four favourites have won since the War, Dixton House, though, is still being heavily backed.
The money's been pouring on to Gala's Image, odds have come down from 25 to 1.
A late entry for Worcestershire is Numerate, the only lady jockey is on board.
The only woman trainer to have won the National, Jenny Pitman, has two horses to watch.
Gainsay is owned by pop star Errol Brown.
From Banbury way comes Smart Tar.
Four years ago this horse was saved from the knacker's yard.
The only previous winner running is good old West Tip.
Fourth the last two years, no horse knows Aintree better.
From Stratford way comes Queensway Boy, back after breaking a pelvis.
Lambourn trainers are used to winning big races.
Oliver Sherwood is sending .
It's being ridden by the owner.
David Murray-Smith and Graham Bradley could be two men to watch, recent form is good.
And finally, if you want to follow a local jockey, Gloucestershire's Peter Scudamore is the man.
A winner at Aintree would round off a fabulous season.
So come Sunday morning will another National winner be riding home in triumph to Central South?
One thing's for sure, they're working on it.
On Central News this week we've seen how firms from the region are surviving in the American market place.
On the last day of my visit to Florida I met Graham Morris, the Rover Group's American President, who told me that whether it's work or play if it's in America it's got to be big to survive.
American life is dominated by cars.
To make life even easier, shopping is often based around the car culture.
As well as the customary drive-in restaurants, there are now drive-through banks and even drive-through florists.
Drive-in cinemas are disappearing because of attacks on families.
The streets of Florida, like most other States, are crammed with hundreds of dealers all trying to persuade people as young as sixteen to buy their models on credit.
It's a tough market for the British to try to take a slice of.
Graham Morris came over from Britain to work at Rover's North American headquarters at the same time as the company launched its newest luxury car, the 827.
Well here is the story.
It's built at Cowley in Oxfordshire.
There's no expense spare in this campaign.
They're spending £30 million over three months on advertising.
That includes the rights to the James Bond theme.
It's not only Austin Rover's buildings here which seem a far cry from Cowley.
The whole American lifestyle offers all sorts of new challenges for Graham Morris.
Everything here is dynamic and very competitive; hotels, restaurants, theatres, which beach you go to, and that drives down the prices and car prices unfortunately.
For instance, you can look round this place and be very impressed but it probably costs less to stay here than a two star hotel in England.
The shopping malls are actually a social event.
People go for hours and mainly .
They go Saturdays and Sundays.
They are open from 9 o'clock in the morning until 10 o'clock at night and actually they are incredible.
But of course there are disadvantages too.
I went looking at a house the other day and it backed on to a lake.
There was a sign there saying beware of alligators in the lake; you don't get that in Home Chapel where I come from.
Nevertheless, Florida is full of Brits attracted by the warm climate and promise of a luxurious lifestyle.
It really is true that everything seems bigger and sometimes brasher over here.
The television too is very different to England.
W P T V Channel 5 T V in West Palm Beach is typical.
A diet of news, game shows and soaps.
It may sound a familiar recipe, but not on 30 different stations.
We've seen this week that there's a demand for products from our region in the States.
Success appears to lie in finding out where that demand lies and not being too shy about using traditional American marketing techniques to make sure you survive the Florida experience.
The Severn bore caused havoc again today.
Police had to close some Gloucestershire roads and in some places depths of three feet were reported.
John Kane donned his waders to bring us this report.
Although today's bore wasn't that high, coupled with the recent rains a massive volume of water surged down the River Severn.
Police had to close the A 38 at Broadegg, and in some parts the water was three foot deep.
Undeterred, some motorists tried to drive through.
Lorry drivers in a transport cafe enjoying their breakfast were marooned for a time and really the best form of transport was by canoe.
So how many times have you canooed down the A 438?
It's the first time for me.
What's the reaction from motorists?
Quite good really, smiling.
Have you got a road fund licence for your canoe?
Unfortunately not.
I'm hoping the police won't stop me.
Meanwhile, further upstream, there was more flooding.
And this is Gloucester's latest attraction, its new water park.
Here the River Severn has burst its bank and acres and acres of grass are now under two foot of water.
People living on the riverbanks can't remember it being so bad for many years and if there's rugby here tomorrow, then the players will be in for an early bath.
As we run the satellite sequence, you should be able to see a curved band of cloud edging away to the north.
That's yesterday's grey weather.
And during the day speckled shower clouds have moved in from the west.
There'll still be a few showers around this evening, but they'll die out later.
There'll be a widespread frost with mist and one or two fog patches.
So a chilly start to Saturday, but any mist and fog will soon go.
There'll be some bright sunshine, but cloud will build up.
During the afternoon there'll be a scattering of showers, but still with spells of sunshine.
The temperature should reach 12 Celsius, 54 Fahrenheit, and it'll feel pleasant in the light breeze.
The headlines are dominated by Mr Gorbachev's visit.
He's invited the Queen to the Soviet Union, and in London he announced that two nuclear reactors making weapons will close.
The FTSE 100 shares index closed down 6.8 at 2,045.7 and the pound is worth 1 dollar and 69 cents.
That's all from us this week, but 
Don't forget Central Newsweek on Sunday at half past twelve with Ann Davis, but now for tonight Goodnight.
Goodnight.
The bookie who's offering £500 a month to make the buyer odds on favourite.
The old bill that bounced back like a bad penny.
And the perfect pastime guaranteed to cut Ben down to size.
Good evening.
First a man has become so desperate to sell his house that he's offering cash help with the mortgage.
Michael Gannon says he'll give the buyer £500 a month for a year.
His special offer comes as estate agents say it's a good time to buy but high interest rates are making it difficult to sell.
Here's Martin Dawes.
Michael Gannon is a former bookie who knows about odds and they're adding up to a housing market where the buyer is king.
His house has been on the market for six months.
He's knocked off £5,000 already.
The price is £182,500.
But he needs an edge, that's why he's offering a mortgage subsidy of £6,000.
It is mainly the interest rate.
It causes problems to people that come to the house.
They would perhaps like to buy it, but they can't sell their property and also if they can sell theirs and they look at the cost of the property and they work out how much they've got to pay for the mortgage then they find they can't afford it.
Isn't it better to reduce the price by £6,000?
No.
I mean the main thing is people can borrow on the true price of the house and then they can have an 80 or 90 per cent mortgage and when they come to pay the mortgage they have the £500 subsidy for twelve months or take them into the next twelve months.
Close by more executive homes are being built.
It's been a slack selling time for developers too.
Mr Gannon isn't the only one in the subsidy game.
Swindon's got a name as a town where the bubble hasn't burst, but high interest rates are giving those in the market place food for thought.
The actual state of the market is that it's flooded with property, so we have a case where supply has increased, demand is still at a fairly low level, so we're having to be very honest with our clients, our vendors, and let them know that the situation is that their property has to be of good value in the market place.
The market place dictates the price.
So at the right price a property will sell.
Mr West's company is preparing for zero growth over the next two years.
If interest rates go up further that may be an optimistic forecast.
And while the house market has ground to a halt, you'll have to move quickly if you want to become a pub landlord.
The freehold pub market is booming, with prices continuing to rise in the Central South region.
It seems for many the idea of setting up behind the bar is even more powerful than the interest rates.
Kim Barnes reports.
It's a popular dream, your own country pub full of friendly locals, but it's becoming more and more elusive as prices continue to rise despite the dive in the house market.
Stephen and Jennifer Dixon are finally installed in The Bell at Shennington near Banbury, after a an eight month search.
Hard work.
Quite frightening.
It's difficult, yeah.
We looked at a lot of pubs.
We looked at about 25 or 30, but this is about the nicest we saw.
I think we travelled the length and the breadth of the country looking.
We knew what we were looking for and we knew if we looked long enough and hard enough we would find it, but there were times when we thought perhaps it isn't out there.
The freehold pub market rose by nearly 40 per cent last year, while residential prices ground to a halt.
Experts say plenty of would be Dirty Dens are the explanation.
Basically it's down to supply and demand.
There are lot of people looking to buy pubs.
They all want to own their own free house and that is keeping the market going when the residential market is depressed.
Pubs like these in Oxfordshire, Buckinghamshire and Berkshire are going for record figures.
Neither interest rates nor the Budget have had much effect.
Prices have held and that looks set to remain the trend.
We see no reason to believe that the market won't continue to steadily increase.
We don't anticipate the same rate of increase that we saw last year, but we'd be expecting probably somewhere in the region of a 10 to 15 per cent increase over the coming year.
The Bell set the Dixons back £325,000.
They'd advise anyone still chasing their claim  stick in.
I think if they really want to do it they should go ahead and do it because it's not going to get any easier.
I don't think prices will drop and I think it will be a nice way of life once we get used to it.
I hope it will.
So an optimistic note for the pub trade, but a pessimistic one for Oxfordshire's only two-man brewery, because it's struggling to survive against tough competition from the major breweries and the  are concerned that the Government proposals to shake up the brewing industry won't really help them.
Debbie Kelly reports.
Brewing will never be big business for the Glennie Brewery.
The two men just want to brew their traditional beers and make enough money to live on, but as things stand it's becoming more and more difficult.
At the moment the brewery produces 50 barrels a week.
They could easily produce 70.
They know the demand's there, but they can't get landlords to take on their brew.
Most pubs in the country are owned by the big six breweries, so Glennie Brewery can only sell to freehouses.
Recently, even those outlets have been drying up because they too have been selling the big breweries' beer in return for cheap loans.
We've lost over the past two years or, two or three years we've lost about 60 per cent of our biggest trading accounts through soft loans from the big brewers.
When you find a free house, and there are precious few of them in this part of the world, they are usually supported in a big way financially by a brewer.
We can't give them a new car park.
We can't refurnish their home for them.
We can offer them very good bear and nothing much more.
The Monopolies and Mergers Commission agrees that the existing system restricts customers' choice of beer.
It wants a limit on the tied house system and pubs given the chance to sell different types of beer.
Exactly what Glennie Brewery wants.
But Paddy Glennie doesn't believe it will work because the big boys will retaliate.
Cheers.
I am sure, unless it's very, very, very carefully worded, the brewers will find all sorts of loopholes and ways of continuing to persuade freehouse licensees to sell their beers, at the expense of the small brewers.
I am sure that there's ways they'll find they can cut their prices dramatically.
The Witney team want safeguards in any new legislation to protect small companies.
Only then, they say, will more of us get the chance to taste their brew.
Three youths from the Forest of Dean have appeared before Hereford magistrates, charged in connection with an incident in which two policemen were beaten up near Ross-on-Wye.
Paul Jones of Lidbrook and Mark Weaver and Peter Barkett of Coleford are accused of serious assaults on police, after a sergeant was said to have been headbutted and punched.
They also face charges of criminal damage and driving while disqualified.
The three were remanded in custody.
Three people died and a fourth was critically injured in a two car crash in Oxfordshire last night.
The 26 year old driver of the Ford Escort and his woman passenger, aged 23, were killed.
Both were from Witney in Oxfordshire.
A 46 year old Worcestershire man, who was driving the second car, also died.
His wife is in intensive care at the John Radcliffe Hospital in Oxford.
The accident happened in heavy rain on the A 424, three miles north of Burford, just a hundred yards from the spot where a couple were killed in December after their car was in a collision with a coach.
Registered dockers at Sharpness on the Severn Estuary have returned to work after Friday's walk-out.
They were protesting at Government plans to scrap the jobs for life guarantee under the National Dock Labour scheme.
Management say they expect cargoes to be handled normally pending any national decision by the Transport and General Workers Union.
Twelve months ago a 41 year old man suffering from Parkinson's Disease underwent a revolutionary operation.
Doctors injected cells from aborted foetus into Rob Davies's brain to help him regain control of his body.
Today Mr Davis is happy with the results and runs a cafe at Worcester.
His family say he is a changed man.
Richard Lutts reports.
This is how many Parkinson's Disease patients suffer.
They have lost the ability to control their own frail bodies because of a chemical deficiency in their brains.
And this is Rob Davies, a year to the day after his revolutionary operation to cure him.
He is now healthy enough to get behind the wheel of a car.
I tell you, a few years ago when I was lying in my hospital bed, one of the things that went through my mind was whether I would be able to drive again.
It's great.
A year on I actually can.
To have your independence took away completely must be absolutely terrible.
Mr Davies, who's now 42, suffered from Parkinson's Disease for three years.
Then he volunteered to know to the Midland Centre for Neurosurgery in Smethwick to undergo a pioneer operation.
Professor Edward Hitchcock took cells from an aborted foetus and he injected them inside Mr Davies's brain.
They released a natural chemical called Dopamine, which Mr Davies lacked.
Slowly, he regained control of his frail body.
Today, on the anniversary of the surgery, there was time to reflect on its success.
Before the op I was on 1,000 milligrams of the Dopramine drug a day, which is what the brain is lacking, which is  substitute the drug for, which is .
I was on 1,000 grams of that a day, now I'm on 187, so although I'm still on medication it's a very minute amount of medication to what I was on before, and I'm existing on that, so for me it's worked.
For his mother, it's the little improvements that have meant so much.
Well the first time when he found it could comb is hair straight back with his right hand; he could dry himself under his arms properly instead of just sort of wiping at it with a towel; wash his teeth better, instead of using his left hand with difficulty because he's never been really left handed.
Those are the little things and to a mother they must mean so much.
Well they do, definitely.
I mean its as if he's sort of living again, you know, coming back to life.
The controversial foetal cell transplants are carried out in other parts of the world too.
Surgeons in Smethwick are now evaluating their own results.
Well there's 12 been completed.
There is now a pause for some evaluation work to be done.
This is the leading edge of medical technology and therefore it has to be done at the proper pace within the ethical considerations and I think the team's decision to pause and look at evaluation is the right one.
As for Rob Davies, some small problems still exist.
The act of writing can be difficult at times, but he predicts that he'll soon become the first Parkinson's Disease patient to abandon drugs altogether as he slowly leaves a life of disability behind him.
That was Richard Lutts reporting there.
An investigation has begun into an arson attack on a school.
Vandals tried to burn down the school in Milton Keynes at the weekend.
The school has been shut because the damage is so bad.
Fire investigators say arsonists built a bonfire with desks and chairs and tried to smash the burglar alarm at the Penwood First School.
Teachers have been clearing up the mess and the headmaster says some lessons will be held in a nearby school later this week.
The site of the old Baptist Tabernacle in Swindon has been cleared ready for redevelopment.
There was an outcry when the old building was demolished ten years ago.
A new Baptist Church, along with shops and offices, are now planned for the site.
It was being used as a car park.
A 230 ton barge has been encountering a few problems on its journey up the River Wye.
First its propeller blade broke off after it hit a rock, then it got caught in currents so strong it couldn't move in a straight line.
Now its stuck on a bank in Monmouth.
The owners of the 124 foot Silver Cloud are tonight towing her off the bank ready to tackle the famous Symonds Yatt Rapids on Friday.
A widow had the shock of her life when she opened a letter from her local council and discovered that she was in arrears with her rent.
Doreen Wranklin couldn't understand it as she had always paid up on time.
John Kane reports.
Doreen couldn't believe it when the letter popped through her letterbox from the council.
Signed in pen by Mrs S Harrison in the tenancy and accommodation section, it said ‘Dear Mr and Mrs Wranklin, I must draw your attention to the small balance on your rent account.
Please make early arrangements to pay at a council office or post office’.
And there with a  written in biro by Mrs Harrison was that small amount, 1 pence.
And just to add insult to injury, Doreen's husband, Mike, had died two years ago.
Not surprisingly, she's very annoyed.
I just thought how stupid.
Could you believe it?
No, I really couldn't.
Have you ever been in arrears in your rent at all?
No.
Not surprisingly, Malvern District Council are embarrassed by the whole affair.
They say it was a computerised letter which got through and they apologise in advance to any other tenant who might have got one.
Meanwhile Mrs Wranklin has been told she doesn't need to pay up.
And from unfriendly rates bills to environment friendly homes in part two.
Sport includes sidecar racing, as well football with Swindon and Oxford and there's a model that looks set to out chime News at Ten.
Soccer, sidecar racing and hill climbing in sport tonight, which we kick off with the fight for promotion to the first division.
We've the goals from Swindon's game, but first Oxford United who proved they can shine when they want to as they beat Stoke 3:2 at the Manor.
United got off to a flyer with Richard Hill giving them a lead after just eight minutes.
There was more to celebrate moments later.
A real beauty of a goal, just watch the pass from Mustoe and the finish from John Derning.
United's luck changed then as Martin  went off with an ankle injury, to be followed a few minutes later by Stoke defender Chris Hemming, a clattering tackle on Derning brought the red card out of the referee's pocket and boos for Hemming.
Two up and playing only ten men you'd think Oxford would have walked it, but then Dave Bamber bustled through to score.
In the second half United came bouncing back thanks to Richard Hill.
What a inspiration he was.
At 3:1 United were cruising again  and the Manor Ground fans must have been thinking what could have been this season if there had been more games like this.
Oxford though can be their own worst enemies when they let in soft goals like these, Tony Henley the scorer.
Mind you Oxford should have won by an avalanche.
When they're on song they're a treat to watch and if they can play like this all the time Richard Hill and co may take some stopping next season.
Well here's how the top of the second division looks.
Swindon Town's still in the promotion race, despite going down 2:1 to Manchester City at Main Road on Saturday.
In front of over 22,000 fans Town got off to a great start, taking the lead after 34 minutes, Duncan Sheerer the scorer.
Swindon's celebrations didn't last long, the equalizer coming seven minutes later.
Wayne Biggins went down in the box.
If he was at the County ground a penalty probably wouldn't have been given, but there was no arguing about Andy Hinchcliffe's finishing.
The Manchester winner came after seventy two minutes; Swindon will be kicking themselves as they watch how substitute David Oldfield, a £6,000 signing from Luton, got the deciding goal.
And Swindon back in action tomorrow against bottom of the table Birmingham at St. Andrews.
Well the summer sporting season is gradually getting underway and yesterday we had two top events in Central South; sidecar racing and hill climbing.
First to the sidecars.
The motorbike men were out in force at Bletchingdon in Oxfordshire for round one of this year's British Sidecar Cross Championships.
After a few days' rain the course was just right for the spectators anyway, plenty of mud.
That's what they like.
It was non-stop action too, with eleven races in the afternoon.
The rider to catch was Paul Millard, number one.
He's been the British Champion for the past three years.
I think he's quite a lot happier now he's in the 500 ccs which is the solo motorcross machines.
It's getting more easier to get bikes and get bits.
Before you used to have specialist machinery, but now you can go to a shop in your own town and pick up spares so a lot more people are going over .
It looks very high off the ground.
Yeah  lot faster tracks  the same circuit and .
And it was a good start to this year's championships.
Local riders Roy Humphrey and Jason Peters from Finstock were going well too, but the only winner once again was the reigning champion Paul Millard from Trowbridge.
He was way ahead of the rest of the field and battled on through the afternoon trying to win those valuable championship points.
And speeds were even faster for round two of the Midland Hill Climb Championship.
This was over in Gloucestershire, at Prescott Hill, home of the Bugatti Owners Club.
You can feel the G-force by just watching the cars roar up the famous Prescott Hill.
The real speed machines here can go from nought to sixty in just two and a half seconds.
Prescott is 1127 yards long, full of twists and bends, and on the fastest stretch the cars can hit 100 miles an hour, every one electronically timed to one thousandth of a second and, quite simply, the fastest up the hill wins.
The reigning Midland champion is this chap, Adrian Hopkins.
He's an optician from Stow-on-the-Wold and in his purpose built Sark Adrian is also the record holder on the hill.
So what's the pleasure of just roaring up a hill?
Getting it right first time .
It is, above all, something where you have to be utterly precise and there's no warm up, you just go out there and do it and that's very challenging.
And so what's the secret, just foot down and away you go?
Up to a point.
On the whole it is a matter that you have to learn the hills, you have to be very committed to the corners so that you get the thing right and as fast as possible, and you don't have that much chance to learn.
Adrian Hopkins was on form again at the weekend.
He won his class by two seconds in a remarkable battle at these speeds and leads the Midland Championship after two rounds.
Also well with him is Tony Tewson from Leamington Spa.
He won his class in the Pilbeam.
There are still seven rounds to go, and the championship could well be decided back here at Prescott in September in the last meeting of the season.
And still with motor sport.
Jaguar from Kidlington finished fifth in the opening round of the World Sports Car Championship over in Japan yesterday.
Mercedes took one and two.
Ann.
Thanks Tim.
Well I don't know if any of those cars run on lead free petrol, but we found a builder who claims to have constructed the first house in the country which is friendly to the environment.
He's particularly concerned about the threatened tropical rain forests and has used materials which are either in abundance, or which have been recycled or reclaimed.
Now he's launching a pressure group to encourage other builders to protect their environment while they're building new homes.
Martin Graham-Scott reports.
Twelve and a half million acres of tropical rainforest are destroyed every year.
An area the size of England, Scotland and Wales.
As a result, many varieties of tropical hardwood are becoming endangered, like mahogany and teak.
Now a builder at Eastington near Stonehouse in Gloucestershire is trying to slow down the decline of valuable trees.
Keith Hall has built a four bedroomed house which he claims is the first in the country to be environment friendly.
All the timber used, like fine oak in the kitchen, comes from forests which are in no danger.
Many of the bricks inside are reclaimed from old buildings, and all the paper and cardboard rubbish is saved for recycling.
I've been quite frightened by what is happening in many areas of conservation and environment problems, and I decided that the best, one of the best, courses that I could take was to incorporate conservation in my work.
The most frightening is rainforest destruction, and being a carpenter and joiner by trade anyway I have used many threatened species in my past and it seemed a good thing to start with.
Out in the garden Keith has built dry stone walls to provide a natural habitat for thousand of insects, and in many of the trees bat and bird boxes.
The project has impressed the building workers.
I think it is a very good idea.
I think the more people who are aware of the alternatives that are in the building industry we could improve on this.
I just hope people sort of sit up and take notice of it.
A lot more sort of individual builders and self-employed people like me and Chas will be more aware of things like this and that there are alternatives to it.
Do you think there'll be more houses like this in the future?
Hopefully, yes.
There's got to be some sort of  hasn't there?
Now Keith Hall is setting up a pressure group to encourage other builders to think more about the environment.
He says he's already had a good response.
We are aiming, I think, for  disaster, certainly as far as the Amazon basin is concerned.
That it's likely, very likely, to vanish as far  rainforest is concerned within the next ten years.
The house, which will cost £300,000, goes on the market next month.
Keith insists that's no more than any other home the same size, but he's hoping the new buyer will care as much about the property as about the world's threatened rain forests.
Well now to another village.
The one in Worcestershire made famous by the Archers radio programme.
They're holding an emergency meeting tonight to discuss a plan to build up to 2,000 homes there.
Residents in Hambley near Droitwich say the plan by Barrett homes will destroy the area's character.
Local farmers have been paid for giving the developers the right to buy their land if the plan is approved.
I wonder if the Archers' script writers will be at that meeting looking for ideas?
Now time rules our lives, most of us have at least one, if not two, clocks in every room.
But one local craftsman has gone one stage better and has made is own time piece.
The problem is it's over seven feet tall.
Stand by for a special edition, four hours early, of News at Ten presented by John Kane.
Charlie Bennett builds a model of Newint's parish church.
He's also done one of the market house at Ledbury.
And now he's made Big Ben and he hasn't even been to London to see it.
No, I have never seen Big Ben at all.
So how did you manage to do this?
Well, just photographs  went to London and took some photographs, brought some postcards back .
Would you like to go to London?
No.
Why not?
I don't like the place.
Do you think it should be taller?
It's just the top piece, it wanted to go up .
You need a bigger room don't you?
You're wife won't let you kind of gouge out the ceiling?
Now he's built Big Ben, Charlie's not too sure what to construct next.
Maybe the Palace of Westminster?
John Kane for Central South in Mayhill, Gloucestershire.
I could just about cope with Big Ben in my living room, but the miniature Alastair Burnett would worry me a little I think.
The satellite pictures shows a lot of cloud just to the east of us, but you'll see that it is moving away.
During the day much more broken cloud has spread across and was responsible for the sunshine and showers.
More cloud's coming in from the west, however, so it doesn't look too promising.
Even so, any evening showers will disappear, bringing a fine start to the night.
Quite chilly in the east as well, but the temperature picking up as cloud and occasional rain spread from the south west.
That light rain will soon clear away tomorrow morning and it'll brighten up for a time.
However, cloud will quickly thicken and yet more rain will move in from the south west.
So, a wet start to the afternoon with some heavy bursts of rain, and windy as well.
Brighter conditions should arrive during the afternoon, though, with the temperature managing 11 or 12 Celsius, the low 50s Fahrenheit.
To summarise then, a chilly showery night.
Tomorrow, rain but some bright spots.
Now a look at the main national and international news.
In the legal battle for Harrods the Law Lords said Lonrho was in contempt of the House of Lords with highly improper behaviour.
Dock Workers Union leaders have been meeting to consider a national dock strike over Government plans to scrap the jobs for life scheme.
Tanks are patrolling the capital of Georgia after the latest outbreak of ethnic unrest.
The Russian Government has banned tourists from the area.
In Namibia U N soldiers, including British troops, are escorting  fighters back to their bases in Angola.
The FTSE 100 index closed at 20.7 and the pound is worth one dollar seventy cents.
It's the accepted rule.
What's the secret of growing a good leek?
It must be grown early and erm, and then just erm  down, plenty of muck up in the ground, and erm they'll grow.
But erm it's all time and it's erm, you know you don't know until the day what you've got, you can only hope and pray it's there and erm go to the show, enjoy it and erm if there's a trophy — very nice, then you can enjoy that as well.
But erm you can always come second.
Well Tom you've picked the best and this is it — how did the judges make out?
Reasonable, = we didn't win on the collection, but erm we — we're quite happy really.
It could have been a lot worse.
What about when you arrived here and you saw all the competition, what did you think of it?
The  arrived erm we're here and erm let's have a go and that's it, you know, as long as we erm take part, that's all that matters.
The competition's been pretty tough this year has it?
Oh  yes they  some real, real good stuff here this year, yes.
I've got all the judges markings here, did you agree with what they said?
Ten out of ten for the cauliflowers 
Yes, basically, yes 
nine out of eighteen for the cucumbers.
Yes I suppose I've had ten points behind anybody else, but erm that's not too bad, you know, out of a hundred it's reasonable.
Of course the thing is at the end of the day, you can always eat 'em can't you?
Of course, yes — no problem, no problem.
Share one of these with you later — a spot of cheese, and a pint of beer — go down a treat wouldn't it?
That would be lovely, yes.
Alright Tom — back to the studio.
And we'll see Bob just a little later on.
Well just down the road from the Shrewsbury Flower Festival there's a very different kind of celebration taking place.
The town of Telford has attracted a new £65,000,000 car components factory which will create 450 new jobs.
Building will start in October with full production planned for two years' time.
The new town is literally blooming with the growth that foreign investment has brought.
Japanese money alone has so far created 4 1/2 thousand new jobs.
Today's announcement that yet another firm from Japan is on it's way was made with a great deal of pride and enthusiasm.
In the long run I think this is probably the most exciting investment that we have been privileged to have in the town, and this really confirms Telford's position as number one Japanese investment in the United Kingdom; we now have 20 companies here.
The £65,000,000 factory will be built by Japan's biggest name in the automotive parts industry.
Nippon Denso has bought a 53 acre green field site on the edge of rural Shropshire; by 1995 a brand new plant should be producing 400,000 car heaters and the same number of air conditioners per year.
The company set up a joint venture with Magneti Marelli the Italian firm which has already taken over two big Lucas plants in the Midlands.
Today the man in charge outlined the sort of people who'll make up the bulk of the 450-strong workforce.
Young with vigour because erm not skill, we will  cater erm employee, so not need the skill, but erm young people with erm maybe better.
The new development has attracted a £2and1/4; million grant from the department of trade and industry; a regional spokesman says foreign investment has made a huge impact on Telford.
Unemployment has fallen by 70 per cent since the mid-eighties in Telford but it's about more than just the number of jobs, it's the quality of jobs, the skills that erm are offered in terms of the training that's available in the area, and the whole atmosphere of the town has been completely transformed by moving from an older and established industrial climate to one that encompasses a wide range of modern and high tech industries.
Nippon Denso already has an impressive list of European and British customers including B M W, Ford, Fiat, Porsche, Jaguar and Rover.
But Japanese car maker Toyota is its biggest, it's hoped their huge new factory at Burnaston near Derby will lead to extra demand in Telford and the possibility of more jobs and more prosperity for people wishing to work there.
This is the Central Television Percy Thrower Trophy, very handsome trophy it is too and it's going to be presented to the best gardener around here; that's after the break.
Welcome back to Shrewsbury Flower Show, I'm joined by Central's Gardening expert Howard Drury, clutching the Central Trophy which we are about to present in a moment, but erm your impressions of the show?
Phenomenal because it's been such a difficult year, and this is erm a prize that's given to the gentleman or lady that accrues the most points in the whole of the amateur section.
It takes a lot of doing you know, to grow some good flowers, some good fruit, some good vegetables, especially in a year when water's been so short.
erm last year it went to Manchester didn't it?
It's nice to say this year its come back home to Shrewsbury, literally a stone's throw down the road.
And it's coming into the hands of local gardener Norman Thompson, congratulations Norman.
Thank you
Do accept that trophy 
There we go.
Thank you very much.
With all our best wishes and congratulations.
Don't want to drop it, thank you 
Well done.
And indeed it was erm it was vegetables wasn't it?
Mostly veg.
yes.
What sort of vegetables really caught the eyes of the judges do you think?
Well erm the potatoes I did most erm mostly on, you know.
There's some good leeks there though, which I didn't have anything there 
And erm also celery I thought was good.
What's your favourite one to grow?
Oh onions!
I like to grow the big onions, although I didn't exhibit those this time here.
In fact has it been a very difficult year for you or have you been able to have some control, because it's all down to the watering I guess 
Well it's been 
Or a lot of it is.
It's been difficult in = thing that you had to go home at night and keep watering like, your not doing anything else but watering, watering 
So it's down to hard work at the end of the day?
Oh, yes yes!
Well I'm pleased to hear  that it's come back to Shrewsbury.
Congratulations Norman and erm 
Thank you.
Here's to next year, let's keep it in the town shall we if we can?
Thank you.
Lets hope so.
Yes I hope so.
Let's join Bob Hall now for erm a look ahead to the weekend's sport.
Thanks Bob.
Five weeks from the end of the cricket season; Warwickshire may be on the verge of their first County Championship title for eighteen years.
Middlesex lead the table, Warwickshire have no margin for error during the run in, but after seeing the title go twice to their neighbours from New Road, the men from Edgbaston could be about to have their day.
It was overcast in Bristol; Gloucester starting as always these days facing a struggle.
Andy Lloyd thought the wicket might not give his bowlers all the help he'd envisaged or hoped for, and he was right.
Without the pace of Alan Donald, the burden in the early overs fell on Tim Munton called up again yesterday for the England nursery side.
But a partnership between Bill Athey and Paul Romaines reached 100 — Athey later, his own century, this despite the use of five bowlers.
So again Warwickshire desperately had to win was slipping away, and with it their chances of the championship.
I said all along, once you've got a staff of twenty odd, we've had a lot of injuries which we haven't carped on too much, but senior players have been out with injury but it's given young players an opportunity.
And the great thing is they've taken that opportunity and erm thankfully we are still lying there in second place.
At the end of the day though, the championship I think, tells you who is the best team of any one year and erm that's the professional's choice I think, if you said at the start of the year which = trophy we'd like to win, we would have said the championship, erm we were top I think after two games and we fell away a bit since but erm the time to be tops after twenty two, so lets hope we can get up there.
The names on the Warwickshire team sheet are changing, and Bob Cottam's statement that it'll take five years to get it right is looking accurate.
Youngsters like Keith Piper have blossomed and though neither are playing today, Alan Donald and Tom Moody have made a major impression and impact with bat and ball.
But with the change of rules meaning Warwickshire have to let one of them go at the end of the season, which one will it be?
At the end of the season I will make a recommendation to our cricket committee, it's up to them whether they take that, choose either or.
But what ever happens at the end of the day, neither is going on the scrap heap because they are a diamond, so someone will snap up a diamond and it will retain it's value and they will do very well.
So it is not as though it's a young player who's going out of the game and you're telling them I'm sorry your not going to make it with Warwickshire.
If you like, it's not a pleasant position to be in because someone's going to be disappointed at the end of the day, but they are diamonds.
And they will go elsewhere and do extremely well, one of them.
Worcester's Graham Hick becomes eligible for England next season and with question marks about the long-term fitness of Dilley, Radford and even Botham, it will be no surprise if either Donald or Moody ended up at New Road.
Back to Bristol, I'm not the bearer of good news, set to get 243, Warwickshire were bowled out and lost by 66 runs, it could well cost them dear in their championship ambitions.
And meanwhile at Kidderminster Graham Hick and Richard Illingworth took two Lancashire wickets each to leave Worcestershire needing just seven runs for their second innings.
You won't be surprised to learn that they won by ten wickets.
Aston Villa could be just a day away from their first trophy of a new season, they play Arsenal tonight at Wembley in the fourteen Maceeter tournament with the prospect of a final tomorrow against Samdoria or Rael Sociadad live on television.
David Platt's return from world cup stage to Wembley stage is likely to be spoilt by a knee injury.
But he was with the squad that left for London at lunchtime.
There is plenty of Wembley experience in the side, Derek Mountfield holds an F A Cup winner's medal though Kent Nielson's lost there twice with Denmark.
It's of course always privilege to play over there and I was over there with a national team a few times, it's a big occasion for the players, for the managers and for the big tournaments too.
We have been preparing ourselves and erm we hope that tonight's game will be good one, good timing for the ball and erm results always is open.
Arsenal hold the Maceeter trophy but were watched at Wolves last week by Vengloss , keen to impress on his first test in English football.
Well that first match kicked off at 6 0'clock, the latest score is Samdoria 1,Rael Sociadad 1.
Highlights of that match and erm tonight's game between Arsenal and Aston Villa will be on Central tonight at 10.40; the final live on Central tomorrow at 2.35.
Well it's sad to report the death of Joe Mercer on his 76th birthday.
Joe was manager at Villa Park for six years and later was general manager and a director of Coventry City, he was one football's great characters, he was a gentleman — he'll be sadly missed.
Birmingham's Paul Howe has broken his own British record at the European Open Swimming Championships in Rome, he finished second in the 200 metres freestyle and still has another two races to come.
One of Britain's best hopes for a title is Nick Gillingham from Walsall, he swims on Sunday in the 200 metres breaststroke, Phil Meppem was at his last training session before Italy.
Nick Gillingham's proudest moment was winning a silver medal at the Seoul Olympics almost 2 years ago, but it's a sad perhaps frustrating fact that Gillingham still finds himself in the shadow of his greatest rival, Adrian Moorhouse.
Moorhouse who won gold in Seoul attracts the greatest share of publicity, and Gillingham come what may, has appeared destined to play second fiddle.
Although Adrian is the Olympic champion, we both held the world record and Adrian has had perhaps a four year head start on myself.
The publicity he's had has been a lot more extensive over the years erm so I think he's certainly more of a household name than myself.
That's not so worrying, but I feel that I've been successful in my own right and I would erm like to think I deserve the same recognition as we've both set same standards over the last twelve months.
In Rome the pair will be kept apart as both concentrate on their specialist distance, for Gillingham that means the 200 metres and a chance to firmly enter the spotlight; Moorhouse might not be there but the opposition is still high class.
about the Olympic champion, he'll be in Rome, he'll be ready for the World Championships, I think he's had an easy summer so far, but we've got the likes of Sergio Lopez who's just taken my European record away, there's two Americans; Kirl Stattel and Mike Barryman who've just gone under the old World Record, so there's perhaps a dozen of us that are really shouting and trying to get up to number one position.
Gillingham enters the Europeans' at the peak of his form, and a performance in keeping with that would help to overcome that current image as the perennial man of tomorrow.
And finally tonight Moseley rugby club have come up with a very different approach to pre-season training, I have to tell you it is not what you'd expect from the lads from the Readings.
It's meant to make them more mobile in the mud and it's a far cry from the rigours of the scrum.
It's aerobics, and if it's not altogether welcome, at least it's tolerated, by some better than others.
Being a rugby player, I mean, suppleness doesn't come into their training an awful lot, so what tends to happen, if your muscles aren't loose and your running around, the slightest jar attacks  and pulls muscles, you injure yourself, so if the muscles are more supple, which aerobics does do, then you'll find that erm injuries erm don't occur as often or shouldn't.
You think you're fit, but not to the extent of athletes or to aerobic teachers of a high calibre, erm but I think we erm although we joke about, you can see on the pain in the faces that it does hurt and it does do us good.
But the serious training still takes priority, as the team prepares for what needs to be a better season than last.
The programme has been a lot better, a lot more stable this year and I think all round, the fitness in general, is going to be a lot better than it was last year.
Since they started they had no coordination, = when I was saying up they were going down, but as the weeks have gone by they've actually gradually got better and they can smile while they are doing it erm as well, whereas before it was erm one great big grimace.
That look I think was for when he next meets Gareth Gilcock.
There's more sport for you at five past five tomorrow, meantime back to a man who's always in full bloom, he's at Shrewsbury Flower Show — Bob?
First you grow your flowers, and then you have to cut them and then display them, now I call that flower arranging, but here, they call it floral art, and you can understand why.
Earlier this week we dropped in on a competitor who was going through erm all the motions of getting his erm display ready and we saw what was involved.
Gordon Bradley is a familiar face at the Shrewsbury Flower Show, he has been exhibiting his arrangements there for the past 25 years.
He's back again at Shrewsbury this year and as usual most of his blooms are grown at home in his garden near Ashbourne in Derbyshire.
The idea behind I had in mind with it was to make a champagne fountain.
The look that I'm trying to get is a sort of pinky-mauvey look on this lovely, sort of wine coloured cloth.
It's a sort of make it up as you go along is it?
I'm afraid so, I mean a lot of these things, you can have a basic idea, and then your flowers don't turn up at the markets and all them sort of things, although we've got a wonderful garden and I've got quite a lot I can use.
This year's hot summer has made life difficult for exhibitors like Gordon.
The heat is not so bad, it's when this wind's with it, and it literally dries the flowers out — you can see them go opaque and takes the colour out of them, but we're not doing too badly.
I think basically, if you've got good colour sense you're home and dry as I have said many times, it doesn't matter how you put it together, but if the colours are superb, it's going to look good.
Well Gordon and here we are with the erm the finished arrangement — are you pleased with it?
Well I am.
I hope the public will be.
It looks very nice doesn't it?
I think it's a very pleasing effect.
What have the judges said about it?
Well, they erm seem to think we should have had some yellow in it for some obscure reason to match the programme, but I don't know, I thing it would have taken the erm the look off the thing.
So you didn't get first prize then?
I'm afraid not with this one, no, still never mind, there's always another year 
There's always another year.
Exactly.
Let's go back to the studio.
And finally a last look at the headlines.
Iraq has urged Arabs and Muslims throughout the world to unite, there are fears that the emergency Arab summit will collapse after the  of Kuwait walked out.
And Texaco has cut the price of petrol by 2.7 pence, the reduction has been made because the price of crude oil has fallen.
And that's about it from us tonight — time for a final visit to the Shrewsbury Flower Show — here's Bob.
Well you know, flowers and vegetables are all very well for the grown ups but for children, not so good.
But there's a lot of entertainment here at the Shrewsbury Flower Show for the children; entertainers like Mr. Boom here.
Where are you from Mr. Boom?
Oh I'm Mr. Boom and I come from the moon.
Is that a fact?
Right!
And do you know this?song
That's very nice Mr Boom — have you got any more?
Oh yes, I'll sing one you all know — will you join in?song 
Terrific!
We've had virtually no rain in the last five weeks which is why we've got water problems in many parts of the country, but it's not just us that's suffering you'll be glad to know.
Many parts of the continent have also got a drought; in France, in southern Italy and Greece in particular but Spain, they're not too bad actually they've had quite a lot of thundery showers this summer.
Have a look at the satellite picture, that shows a lot of cloud coming across but not much in the way of rain unfortunately.
Earlier on this week all that cloud was coming in from the north-west, now you can see it coming across from the west and as the weekend goes along, it will come in more from the south-west, so it will warm up a little bit.
Tonight, one or two patches of cloud around, not all that much — a very mild night, minimum temperatures 13 degrees Celsius, that's 55 degrees Fahrenheit and just one or two showers in the north-west towards morning.
Tomorrow morning, just the odd light shower about anywhere, but only a few spots of rain, it won't be long before the sun comes out yet again.
In the afternoon, temperatures up to 26 degrees Celsius, that's 79 degrees Fahrenheit — a lovely day by the look of it.
Then on Sunday, more of the same, if anything — little bit warmer.
So there you have it, have a very nice weekend.
I'll leave you with this summary.
Good evening.
The headlines tonight.
Mourners at the funeral of a young soldier murdered in Northern Ireland were joined by his fiancée Debbie Turley from Lidney in the Forest of Dean.
She was supported by the parents of Lance Bombardier Stephen Cummins as the gun carriage bearing his body moved through Porchester near Portsmouth.
Lance Bombardier Cummins was killed by an I R A land mine near Londonderry.
He had written letters home and to his fiancée with poems asking them not to weep at his grave.
He and Debbie Turley who's a nurse were planning to marry in August.
Her wreath in the shape of a tank bore the message ‘As you once said, there is too much love between us ever to be separated’.
A teenager is being questioned after an attack on a schoolgirl.
It happened behind the ice rink in Oxford off Oxpens Road close to the Oxford Canal.
The fifteen year old girl was left badly bruised and with missing and broken teeth.
Police are searching for a blunt instrument.
A village school in Buckinghamshire is set to close despite a campaign by parents to keep it open.
Nearly seventy pupils and parents from Slapton School near Aylesbury lobbied councillors before a meeting of Buckinghamshire Education Committee.
They say twenty five children at the primary school get more individual attention than they'd get at a larger school.
But the council say the school, which has only one full-time teacher, is too small to cope with the new national curriculum.
The parents now say they'll appeal to the Secretary of State.
And more than thirty children have returned to school after a three day break caused by a shortage of teachers.
Parents are angry that their education has been disrupted.
The class of twelve and thirteen year olds were forced to miss lessons because Buckinghamshire Education Committee was unable to find a supply teacher.
Teaching at Falconhurst School in Milton Keynes was back to normal this morning.
Vital detective work by scientists based at Harwell has linked radon gas with a possible two and a half thousand lung cancer deaths.
The radioactive gas occurs naturally in parts of Britain, and concentrations can build up in houses.
Until researchers from the National Radiological Protection Board published their figures there had never been a national survey on the potential risks.
Martin Dawes reports.
: Mmd The detective work done by the Harwell scientists showed hitherto unsuspected dangers from radon.
It was already known the radioactive gas was linked to lung cancer.
The surprise is that it is much more common and affecting more people than had ever been suspected.
Worst affected are Cornwall and Devon.
Now scientists believe the gas could be linked to two and a half thousand cancer deaths per year.
By placing radon gas detectors in homes the scientists are getting a clear picture of the problem around the country.
In the south midlands, Northamptonshire has the worst problem.
There, some areas are double the national average.
Researchers couldn't be sure radon was such a danger until they'd built up a complete picture.
: Ma  for a few years and recently we've reassessed the doses and also we've reassessed the risks so those two things together have caused us to express our concern and to advise the government what to do about it.
Which of course, which at last the government accepted.
But in other parts of the Midlands, and indeed the country, the search is on to find the houses with high  erm we have quite large programmes going on in the south west and also in the Pennines,Scotland.
to find high houses and to remedy them.
: Mmd Houses can now be designed to cut the risk from radon.
Those most at risk in a high radon area are smokers.
: Fa Some of the country's leading film starts have been adding their weight to a campaign to keep open an Oxfordshire cinema.
It's threatened by plans to redevelop the centre of Henley-on-Thames.
The town would get a new two-screen cinema, new shops and restaurants.
But the existing cinema, one of Henley's best known buildings, would disappear.
Wesley Smith has been finding out why the stars are so concerned.
: Mws The Regal Cinema has certainly seen better days.
It's entertained generations of film lovers from the Henley area since it was built in 1937.
It was one of the few remaining to keep an old cinema organ until it closed a few years ago.
It was bought by the John Lewis Partnership who want to expand their Waitrose supermarket as part of a new development programme of the town centre.
The changes would also bring a new cinema.
However, not all the locals approve of the plans to demolish the Regal.
The actor Jeremy Irons is leading the campaign to save his local picture palace.
: Mji I love film.
I work in it and I care about it, and I care about people going to see it.
And I believe that the growing trend erm of people going to the cinema, erm cinema owners reconverting cinemas they've cut into three back into the large auditoria, erm will continue and a night out at the cinema has something to do with the the building you're in, erm this building if refurbished would have a restaurant, would have a bar, would have a cinema club, would be a real asset to the town.
erm and I think that if it is pulled down for this new development, in ten year's time we will look back and we will say ‘Why did we do this?
Henley is a lesser place because we don't have this amenity.’
: Mmd An exhibition to let people see what could be the new Henley is being held at the town hall.
Residents are invited to leave their comments before the planning application is made next week.
Plans for the new two-screen Regal Cinema are also on display.
: Fb The kind of erm cinema that will have being two-screens, it's going to allow the sort of variety that probably the Regal in the past wasn't able to give to them, because we can as a policy have a constantly erm a constant turnover of different films.
: Mmd Isn't it going to be difficult to recreate the charm of the old Regal though?
: Fb I don't think so.
We'll erm have two  screens, a great deal of comfort.
: Mb This scheme has been designed to overcome many of the objections that were raised to the earlier scheme, particularly in relation to the car parking that is now in excess of that which was originally required.
the cinema has been erm provided with a a proper manager that everyone is now happy with.
: Mmd Jeremy Irons is impressed with the town plans generally, but, with stars like George Harrison and Simon Williams to back him, he's forging ahead with the plan to save the Regal.
: Mji I live in hope.
Forcefully.
: Fa A man had to be rescued from the top of Hereford Cathedral this afternoon after he had a heart attack.
It was all just part of an exercise for the emergency services.
Hereford and Worcester ambulance and fire teams wanted to test how they'd cope with an incident some 176 feet up.
The fire service used techniques usually reserved for cliff rescuers to reach the man.
With the aid of a cable slide, the patient was slowly lowered to safety.
Once back on the ground the ambulance service took over the medical side of the operation.
The man who ran the world's first sub-four minute mile has been back to the track where he made history nearly thirty five years ago.
Sir Roger Bannister trained on Oxford's Iffley Road track with Chris Chattaway before breaking the four minute barrier.
He was back at the track to mark the donation of a quarter of a million pounds to refurbish the surface.
A young man from Gloucestershire who wants to become a professional juggler has been given the royal seal of approval.
Peter Cook has been awarded a thousand pounds by the Prince's Youth Business Trust to set up his own juggling company.
Pearl Afferty reports.

You know the kinda  biggish kinda looking one?
Big mouth one , well you seen her.
No not at all.
Where you going now Chantel.
Dunno 
Where's Tasha gone, shops?
No.
Tasha gone shops.
No.
Where is he?
Where is he?
Yeah, I know that song yeah  shut your mouth.
Fucking old song.
I know more songs than you.
What song do you know darling?
go on, go on, go on, come on.
Oh boy's a sheep.
Come on, come on, what  tune do you know ?
Do you know 
What ones?
Your tune,sing my song .
Follow me.
Different beat, different beat innit?
and it goes  for ever and ever 
Yeah yeah yeah we know we know 
And afterwards what's ?
I can't remember it  now .
Oh shut it up, you know what erm, is it true about erm Benita?
What about it?
What about it?
You tell me.
I don't know, what about it?
You tell me.
is I don't know but, I don't know.
You don't know.
so why you say yes yes before?
Is that a microphone?
So what have you got on .
Yes .
When you wanna answer the question.
Who Rox?
Don't you  it again.
hang about with her.
sure to hang about Angela .
Ain't seen a .
Who's that?
Never see her.
What you good little girl.
So what you been reading?
Er busy
Er
What you been reading?
Shut your mouth  yeah you been reading then?
dry.
Oh yeah  tell me about work.
I've got work, I, I got a job baby.
Job business.
What's that?
Yeah.
Put on a w put on a  er erm 
Put it on.
Why?
Put it on.
Right hang on.
what you gonna sing?
Yeah pass us the headphone .
Are you ready?
try to walk away and I'll come to depend on you,I give you all the love I had in me da da da  I can't believe it's true  you better stop stop with my heart, you  always break my heart, you better stop before you tear us all apart  you better stop .
rubbish innit?
shitty.
Sounds fucking horrible innit.
time after time I tried to walk away  I come to depend on you  I give you all the love I had in me.
Da da da da da that's love and I can't believe it's true da da you better stop  before you go and break my heart .
Chantel can sing with a big fucking  .
I thought that was funny you know.
Yeah.
funny eh?
Yeah.
then I'll be able to chat to it.
I don't know .
about the .
You have to, you have to be over here you know.
haven't got no lyrics man chat.
Bring  and I chat to the r 
Ha  some people .
Want some drink Ian?
Like some drink?
Yeah .
Wait wait wait  down the side.
innit?
Where did Chantel and that go?
Right where did Chantel go?
very busy at the moment.
Very busy.
Dog.
Sure dog this is.
Where you going.
Where you going Ian.
Where you going?
Where's Chantel gone?
Where's Chantel gone?
Not that Chantel.
How many blokes ?
supposed to let your wife what's going on.
Is Chantel in there?
my name is .
schools is off flip the skips.
Love that.
I love that.
Sound like  crazy.
big fighting boxer.
Big fight.
It's alright.
I knew he was gonna box one of these days.
Legs it.
Grace.
What's that Sir?
How long have you been in the Army?
In the Army?
Yes.
These are the fashion now Sir.
fashion .
Yes.
She thinks she's tall.
No.
She thinks she's tall.
Look at him  big shoes  
So what, so what  say it right here.
Come and say it right here.
Ian.
Ah high.
platform shoes.
He's actually  on  platforms.
How anybody can walk in those things I don't know of any.
I walk in those things 
Are quite high but when you come down then you same size.
I got a pair of  yeah.
I mean they was, they are not  new because they was when I was a kid people were .
Come back out innit?
Sixties.
How many people have done their, at my age, done their feet in because  wearing them I don't know.
I know Sir.
Because I mean did you see that er  on er they showed it on the Clothes Show that thing when she was wearing it.
She went over.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
She  innit.
I'm surprised she, surprised she didn't break her ankles.
Oh well.
That's how it is Sir.
never keep it up  
style innit, that's the style, platforms.
No .
Yeah but my ones, my platforms are out that I've got.
They're not way over the top.
They're yours, stand up.
You better.
there.
Stand up.
Bit higher, yeah  yeah.
They still, they still look very .
Do they look alright?
Any matches?
you got about four .
What's that?
I got, I got enough shoes.
Grace because if you catch, catch them on the pavement  stop  what level you've got to be very very careful.
No that, I I just walk like that Sir, they're suede, they're a special way of walking.
Yeah but even so, even so you could still fall over.
I mean
Well that's the fashion Sir.
I mean I've noticed, what falling over?
No not that Sir, I mean .
somebody's on duty  little bit like that so I'm told  just won't walk in  shoes.
Oh well.
you've 
All the girls are wearing them.
got to stop your feet and go flying.
You're  it now .
Well they must have had a lot of bottle.
A lot of what?
A lot of bottle.
Oh.
Oh well.
when I was oh I suppose about your age,
Yeah.
maybe a bit younger the fashion used to be winkle-picker shoes.
Winkle who?
Winkle-pickers.
They was the ones with points.
Wh what they used to  people's shoes.
If you imagine that was  their toes would all go up like that
because of course when you're young
Yeah.
say ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen you, you're still growing aren't you?
Yeah.
What can happen is you can deform your feet.
Well there's a lot of people of my age that wore these shoes
Did you used to wear them Sir?
No I didn't, my mother wouldn't let me have them but a lot of people have worn them.
But I bet you wanted them though.
Well I mean you learn as well as yourself.
If your parents say no, the more they say no, you  want it, don't they?
Yeah  
So there must be lots of people of my age whose feet are like that, where they've worn these things and their feet are a bit deformed.
Terrible .
Ideally, you sh when you get a pair of shoes you should be able to put them on and do that
Yeah.
with your .
Don't have to sort of spread them out like that you should  toes
Toes.
alongside those.
cos if you, they say the best time to buy a pair of shoes is at night when your sh when your feet are really swollen.
Yeah.
cos you know during the day your feet get hot and sticky and sweaty and swollen.
So what about them, them trainers alright innit .
Well any, any shoe.
They're just nice and comfortable at the end of the day when your feet are really swollen but  nice and easy to wear but if it's tight
Mm.
say she's got up with  shoes only one pair of shoes  nice and smart
Yeah.
then you put them on when your feet are all swollen at the end of the day you'll find them too tight.
yeah.
say cos they reckon if you measure yourself when you get up in the morning, then measure yourself when you go to bed.
What I don't know Sir.
Ian loo 
shoes.
You  blown that .
I reckon you're slightly taller in the morning than you are at night.
Cos I mean if you look at it, you're laying down all night and  relax, do you see what I mean?
Yeah.
The time you  eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve hours later when you go to bed because the force of gravity is  hasn't it to .
I couldn't, I can't believe though  you   growing up a bit better now.
change .
all these people there .
Mark 
.
Lucky I didn't have a hair cut then innit?
I did have a hair cut  haircut 
I did I wasn't even here when you had it  like when you first came to this school.
What to ?
Ian something like that yeah..
fourteen to fifteen .
I'm fourteen.
Well they reckon you stop growing now about eighteen.
can understand something, it's my birthday, right May the seventh  I want a present.
That'll be your .
Fifteen.
before you stop growing.
I want a present Ian.
Well you stop w 
Ian 
They reckon on average that erm eighteen yeah about eighteen cos normally the  get up to what beginning of your teens.
Yeah.
And then when you go  start growing.
Ian you grow a bit more .
Can do yes but they reckon that on average each generation of people is bigger  bodily built than er parents.
If you've got naturally tall parents then er  tall .
Yeah.
Then you 
What you doing, what you doing I couldn't hear.
I know.
Innit Sir .
Alright I'm listening, I'm listening.
He's one of the best teachers in our school and .
Teaching.
I'm one of the best people 
Yet at one time it used to look quite strange to see a girl teacher but 
Yeah.
There's one girl I know she's erm, she said she's sixty one and a half.
And how old is she?
Er mid twenties, she said her sisters  three inches taller.
I'm one  and how does this  on to then?
I don't know I've not seen her since  she's sixty one and a half  six five.
Oh that's terrible, way too tall.
she's getting married and she's  tall .
make sure.
That looks silly.
By the time I see her put on her high heels that make it worse though.
most, most women are er
Most of them are tall  they don't wear, they don't wear high heels, they wear flats, flat shoes.
Well not only that they find that flat shoes or shoes with very little heel  is a lot more comfortable to wear  what happens  eventually  you take .
Yeah.
They  wearing high heel shoes, very high heels 
Yeah.
much shorter .
Yeah
but 
So my shoes they're not
No yours are okay.
Oh right.
You've got plenty of  five six inches.
Yeah.
that's when you come out top.
Because you're sort of aren't you?
so you don't like me in platforms then?
platforms.
The platforms.
wore much of my platform to school yeah.
These ain't platforms Ian.
your feet  shoes .
Yeah she's .
there .
as well.
Yeah..
in yet.
pardon?
Have you broken them in yet?
What do you mean broken them in?
Well when you just  shoes, when you first buy them.
Yeah.
You know sometimes  breaking them in.
They hurt .
when I first wore  ankles .
Oh yeah yeah.
. Sir, don't forget it's my birthday on May the third.
No I don't know one.
Yeah.
I know a lot of people .
Yeah.
Sir so we what can when you  a box of chocolates Sir
and a card.
I'm not eating them every day though.
think about it.
Think about it Sir.
You shouldn't have to think about it it's my birthday  time  and a box of chocolates and a card.
Last year I was fifteen for the third time round.
Yeah.
Fifteen for the first time round.
Third.
Third time round.
Third time round.
What's three fifteens?
What you, what you trying to do Sir?
What is three fifteens?
Forty five.
Yes.
Last year  fifteen third time round.
Third time round.
Never heard that one?
No.
So you can't buy me a box of chocolates for  and a card?
I'll think about it.
Think about it.
What's the time Ian?
Five past two .
Five past two     you play cam badminton Sir?
Well I was supposed to be looking after it.
take  leave .
Oh right.
Still have to take the rucksack.
Do you play?
No I, I'm not all that sports minded.
Just like seeing your team Sir.
I mean I'm not  er I think it's very good.
I have other ways of keeping fit.
that running.
Not all .
aerobics classes.
I say  Ian, take that out your mouth,
you're so disgusting, what is it?
Er boy you suck anything.
suck 
.
You suck anything man.
Even
Was I sucking it?
innit then.
Yeah you're still sucking, it's still in your mouth innit?suck .
don't know that you suck all these .
Look, look I brush my teeth properly.
So
Yeah.
You don't know what, you don't know what to say 
Is that old ah that's brilliant.
That is brilliant, that is brilliant  never see you on .
come come I give you a nice kiss.
Ian I don't want no kiss from you.
I give you, I give you a nice kiss 
Move, move Ian, move 
Get off  
Sir, yeah,Sir 
I  pick you up .
Sir, sir  get lost, leave me alone man  don't Ian.
It's alright I don't want no kiss man.
It's alright I don't want no kiss.
station innit   station   make me laugh boy  packed up with  it's like you have to do erm spot black and white er see because what you doing    fuck off  he's gotta be mad  you have to spot the  toilet, you don't like it Ian,tell  don't lie please don't lie to me.
sick.
Don't lie Ian.
You're so lie.
No, what are you doing?
No, I mean no.
Pardon?
Oh I'm sorry Miss.
Come on take it off.
stupid.
Find a chair Ian.
set an example.
Shut up.
innit?
What is he a black ma a black boy.
black boy.
yeah yeah.
Don't that look fun?innit?
What you laughing for?
Shut up.
stupid.
I  Ian, Ian was erm chatting  on this I'll let you hear it afterwards   laugh.
can't hear you.
You're so neurot look it don't even sound like him.
It don't sound like him 
Yeah sound 
Don't tell me.
tomorrow  
You're boring.
boring.
Thought you said you're bald.
.
Will you be quiet.
She's so nasty.
talking about 
Do you talk about bananas?
Erm.
No.
talk about bananas 
Will you make sure that you do do them  put the dresses on the erm different .
Who's still talking?sit there talking all the way through  erm  
No miss I haven't got no detention.
Chantel.
every year  to me
yeah it'll do .
say yes 
Yeah bu I yeah bu 
It's difficult .
I wouldn't cos I, I can't if I saw you in the street I don't know you I couldn't be, I couldn't be attracted to you.
No it's true, it's true I, I couldn't be attracted to you.
attracted .
I don't know.
when we
No.
You was 
he's a joker.
She's been .
Quiet now please 
Form two,
Yes Miss.
Lavina
Yes Miss
Grace is this really something you should be doing ?
Well no Miss, no no no.
That is stupid .
No I don't mean you're a small size.
That means everybody  excuse me please.
Right I want you to stay silent.
Chantel, anyone that defies me will be here until four o'clock.
quiet.
Who's that?
Claire
Right.
Grace,
Jonathan.
Yeah Miss.
Luke.
Yes.
David   Ian
Yes Miss.
Jenny,Natasha,
Yes Miss.
Stephen
Yeah Miss.
got my 
What 
Oh Chantel saved me one  before.
Friday,
Not this Friday.
This Friday coming   got a reason?
Got a reason?
Starts  this club.
it's not erm it's not on.
I'm not stupid  got the mike on I'm not stupid.
Oh is that I was just talking to  man.
last one.
Grace what's that?
Mike
Oh.
Recording 
No.
Tasha.
No I said to Tasha do you wanna come to a rave up.
Yeah.
Yeah and I got so  
Did you say, did you say erm
I can't say it again.
. Can't say that to you Ian.
who gave me this?
It's yours 
Gone in my eyes you know you're mad.
can't see .
So.
What.
What's the next lesson?
Does what  man.
Nothing no nothing.
Nothing
whoa.
I'm going downstairs.
yesterday.
said she'll never forget, said she'll never forget that Chantel.
Come on.
Ah ah little boy pushing big people  you know.
Come on get out the fucking way.
Get out the fucking way man.
Alright Fi-Fi.
Do you wanna hear erm do you wanna hear Fiona singing?she was singing on the mike, she was singing  yeah really singing you know.
Alright William?
Alright William?
Oh my God 
No  shut it off er
You're not meant to 
Er.
you're not meant to say in front of the classes.
Oh.
Why didn't you ?
I've got a .
Well why didn't you just bring the note and show it to me?
Yeah well then .
If you're wearing, if you're wearing headphones right  you don't stop  everybody's bound to work out and everyone lets you wear them, everyone's bound to work out  you've been given permission to wear them.
Right I suggest , I suggest you have  and you show your note  sit down otherwise  people .
bit messy now  come in
Oh today
Worn it.
Yeah.
How come you 
I didn't see you.
No you mean 
Later.
Monday.
was this.
Er
Ah.
lucky for him.
He's got  
Are you stuck?
Why?
I'm asking are you stuck?
Why.
are you stuck?
Yes or no are you stuck?
But why?
If I ask somebody stuck you're not gonna go why.
Then I'm gonna say little bit.
A little bit?
Yes.
So am I a little bit.
Why?
Smelly bitch.
That's all you can say innit can't say nothing else.
Can't say nothing else.
Can I have a pen?
You got anything to say say it out loud.
Fucking bitch.
Alright if you've got anything to say  don't smoke .
You understand English  are you cooperating properly?
God I don't believe .
Haven't got one.
I have told you about ten times I have not got a pen.
Have you got a pen ?
Bring your own equipment.
My pen's run out  pass me that pencil there.
I is it sharper?
Yeah.
Mm.
She's on the .
Erm let me see now.
Haven't got to bring it in Monday.
Mm.
erm half term I think.
Ain't got no one to look at it.
It should be on the cover.
No.
What?
on it's not working .
You are  you are joking you know that's all I can say about you.
I didn't really think about it.
she's a going some boy.
I didn't think to erm, I didn't really think to tell her to wait.
You got a cheek.
I ain't got no books.
Where you lot going today?
Er, where?
What does that mean  there?
Er
What is there good stuff down there?
what I wanted int it, the trousers.
What trousers?
The leather ones.
Hold on a minute.
What .
That's it.
That's nice int it.
Mm mm.
How much was that?
Five pounds and I bought it .
And how much is the trousers?
Ten pounds.
you bought that again?
Bought what again?
You, you had this the shorts.
Some of it's similar man int it?
Oh yes.
That's nice I like that.
I bought it down erm  thingummybob int it?
This is erm twelve ninety nine, this is eight ninety nine and I bought in erm .
Yeah.
Vandals .
do you remember seeing them?
No.
I remember I remember I saw the shorts and you said they're nice.
I was  went to .
Are you going up?
You lot definitely going away for this week  
Yeah.
have to go and get it man.
expensive.
That's alright, not too bad.
The prices are, are reasonable, you know what I mean?
Mm.
Not too expensive.
their prices.
If you actually go in and look at the prices cos the other is the only one I'm gonna get, it was only ten pounds,only one  at the bottom and this shirt  white shirt is only five pounds.
That's alright.
You know what I mean the prices are reasonable  I can't even hang it I put them, leave them in the bag.
Come home now.
Mm.
Prices are reasonable you know what I mean?
So what did Dawn buy?
Dawn bought .
Did Maxine go?
No.
I thought Maxine wanted to go.
Yes.
Yeah.
Sure sure  to 
Mm mm.
pair of jeans  all in one.
forget it.
I know.
Not wise to  it off the .
You know that.
large  
This the, this going my way for it  
And how much you say you paid five?
Yeah.
I like that.
I like that a lot.
Really good five, five pound there, I like the colour  them .
So all that money you spent.
A lot int it?
It's not all that much money anyway.
Comes out .
waist look exactly with my waistcoat, look.
Oh yeah, what happened, hold out a trouser missing.
it rust  the back, the back bit.
Yeah, I like them.
waistcoat I've been saving some time to get them.
flare ones.
Oh yeah.
Dawn should go and get a waistcoat as well cos these
Waistcoats and shirts .
Yeah.
seven ninety nine I don't know how much the waistcoats have gone down to but they most probably gone down as well to about ten pounds the waistcoats.
Yes.
I paid twelve pound for the waistcoat.
So you must have left that room early int it?
No one o'clock.
One?
Yeah.
You just come?
Yeah.
You look terrible boy.
Lucky if we'd have left there early we still could have gone.
Mm mm.
can't be bothered to  going out again boy.
So what didn't Dawn buy erm, didn't Dawn have the buggy?
She  the baby.
So who she leave the baby with?
Mummy.
I didn't know mummy was there.
Mummy was  bought them two fifty nine P.
Samantha.
Yeah.
Maxine's here.
Maxine's here.
Dawn's  when I come down I show her it.
Dawn 
Er
Don't touch, don't touch
I bought it for Jay cos I don't like  you know what I mean?
Yeah I know, I haven't bought Jay nothing.
Well  used to get her everything.
I wanna go a piss boy.
get everything.
Yeah, I know 
Get everything .
Er, how much is it?
Two ninety nine.
Two ninety nine .
That's worth it.
I'll get the door.
Hello Maxine
Hello.
Ah.
bigger.
You said you was home three 
yeah.
Oh my goodness what's the matter with you?
What do you wear 
I had a cardigan on.
What cardigan?
Your one.
No.
She looks awful int it.
get a cardigan  
You  
what do you say Glen?
Have a seat.
Ro-Ro  Ro-Ro.
Ro-Ro yeah  say hello  say hello.
Hell 
Say hello.
Hello.
Say hello Auntie Grace.
Hello.
Auntie Grace.
This is Romax.
This is Romax speaking one two three.
He's only one and he's talking.
Look, look.
He's chatting, chat for them Romax.
Say 
Hello Jay Jay, hello Jay  This is their mum, this is their mum Maxine.
Grace.
Say .
So w where you going now Maxine?
I'm going to Leo's int it.
Leos wh what Leo what erm area Leos?
Dalston you know, Dalston .
Yeah I migh I might come with you you know.
I w I might come with you you know.
Tell you what let me just get on my jacket.
spend a while looking after them you know.
Ah, right .
Let me just get my jacket first and I'll be with you.
Here's my sister Dawn 
Sod off.
erm  school.
For school.
Yes.
Look today she looks dry,she's got  .
Today, today Dawn looks so drab, my sister Dawn, she's got   trousers and my and my top  and my top  and  she loves her kebabs and her  her legs her dry, right.
school you know.
School I have to tape this for erm school.
what?
Just tape conversations for school.
Teacher wants to know about conversations 
Is it still running?
Yeah.
What sort of people there?
Oh the mums will be there.
No look at my clothes man.
I know.
I wanna brush it off after.
Erm what  say.
Yeah, we've got to tape, you just do your conversations and that 
Where's your mum?
Don't know, she's upstairs.
computer int it?
Love computer.
speak .
what?
She still owe me forty pence.
Did you see anything you like?
What time is it man?
Yeah.
Hold on.
some of yours 
When was the 
No he dropped out and I picked it up when I was  
Hello  hello.
Shut the door please.
There's my mum.
There's my mum.
That's what I was saying I said here's my mum.
Hang on.
say.
I'm gonna shut that .
My brother Glen he's always trying to s fix up the sitting room
Do you know what you want?
and my brother Glen, he's ver he's, he's forgetful, he's very forgetful and he always wants a clean up the sitting room.
There's my mum talking.
She's thick.
on the floor man.
Not 
Glen eh Glen he's in there fussing all the time 
What have you got there  
just over the sitting room.
Oh y oh  put me right  today  yes .
He always tries to crack jokes and he's so dry.
My mum trying a, here's my mum she's trying to do the, she's trying a do the butterfly.
This is Romax.
Hello.
Everyone buys  
It's a real Jamaican family 
Romax.
Jane.
That'll tell you to move mum.
Mum's still trying to do the butterfly but she can't get it right 
Let me try   
I don't think she'll ever get the butterfly right 
Sixty one, erm not the  it's rough, it's rough the jacket.
Got five minutes left.
Yeah what you up to Reg.
Yeah I'm gonna go to Leos with you  
Where'd you get them boots from?
They look like 
Er 
you didn't did you?
He
Might drink  
Oh yeah yeah  
Ivan  
shubber 
shubber 
Hello.
Say da da da da da da da
Ye ye ye ye ya
Say jay jay jay jay jay
and he's only one.
One  no no.
Sing.
Sing.
What's his song?
Only cost three pounds.
Worth it innit?
Yeah.
It's worth three pounds.
You should have got a bigger size innit Dawn?
things with their clothes, their clothes is good 
Who's that, what's that?
Woman,the  top that I'm gonna buy for Romax and Jason eight ninety nine and she's selling it for one fifty.
not a screw but the only thing is erm she didn't have Romax size when I went there.
What  was it??
Oh I'm looking for 
wicked  there's only one  .
there's a lot of  you know though.
Yeah but look at him  Deacon.
Who's Deacon?
Deacon .
Deacon went there from church?
What she put a waistcoat on him for?
Trying to pop style innit?
You look stupid.
You stink you know.
I wanted to put it on today.
That looks massive boy.
Is that ?
Shut up.
This is small man I wanted it t I wished they had erm erm
got the erm what was it, erm yeah tiny 
smaller you know.
I really wanted her to wear it you know.
What you bought it for erm  
Not today but I wanted er 
But I thought, I thought, I thought that's wh I thought that's erm
No I thought that was erm
innit?
Jay's, I thought that was Jay's.
Oh Jay's got one as well right 
take that back you can't talk  English .
What's that?
I don't know.
Nothing .
Come on 
That's no good 
Only one pound
On the market yeah.
What market, what market have you bought it from?
Roman Road.
That's no good.
Roman Road.
You see my one.
When do we take it in  
When do we, we take it  fed up like that it  off they're no good.
Relax 
You have to buy the good ones from  .
You hold him, you pick him up
I got to give him to you hold it 
Don't matter then put it on the d on the rug 
on the  innit?
And I'll still put it in the  
cos I'll plug it in  
stretch it through your mouth Grace.
Big mouth  
up  
last night.
Say hello Grace.
Say hello Grace.
Hello.
Say hello.
what time you still want 
Is it  or no?
paper no 
Everything she drew.
I'm just rushing with Maxine up here yes.
What she looking at  
One two .
That's erm,
Quick give me four pence please.
I've only got about three P.
He's gone deaf you know.
Blatantly deaf.
in your room.
What is wro I think she's got too much ear wax.
He took
How much longer 
hold it
mummy.
Half an hour.
whisper.
How much longer more you do?
Let me have a look 
I didn't know it would sit up.
Well you can mum.
He can sit up.
What do you mean what Grace doing?
Same think what was wrong .
that when Peter came to take his picture when  
Oh that's good 
he took his picture like this.
Do you remember?
Come to me Chanel.
come on Friday  
So stupid she's there  she's there she says yes talk to me.
Like that it went right in my  
Come on put your shoes on.
Put on your shoes Chanel.
Put on your  
May I come in?wait are you  it up.
That's fuck that's why the .
No she was sucking it up man look at  
what you doing?
She's sucking it up .
oh God who's touched that?
Why?
I'd never give him  instead of bought for her for her christening she match up the jacket and sh the socks, the socks what somebody just bought for her.
she must have on the christening
Yeah.
and then she say
mean them
sat on the floor 
I know but I mean 
you do now.
suck at the top boy.
and the thing about you you know, you know  to you.
if yous lot are carrying on l like carrying on like this.
Is that
She's ten years old and she's sucking up her clothes.
I don't understand.
It's like she's a young baby, boy.
buy me a
Apple
Any er, no I don't want a 
Buy me any other drink.
Twenties.
No you can  too much.
Granddad still around?
never heard of.
So when I called her she wake up.
country
Who's her, Chanel?
catching hay fever.
Er
She don't sit down here Maxine, she know, rub her eyes, she'll rub her eyes or me 
her she's  to try .
Look some time you know can't you see I'm tired.
Don't argue.
I got so much  
If you want somebody Max
Give her a lift.
Max look.
I wanna  you man .
I just wanna 
Them trous alr were.
I wanted them trousers.
trouser please.
attracting nobody, she's going  scratching the eyes like you sounded .
Fuck all of it.
You  allowed the, the machine so much.
Anybody  fever.
Look at her.
You  
You lot talk the same as  to talk.
Hold on a minute.
mixed up.
waistcoat on for mummy.
What's wrong with you, you're so stupid  Dawn .
she's talking.
Tell me what do you put a waistcoat on him for.
How much is the shirt as well the shirt?
You give me yourself 
The shirt.
The shirt.
But why she put jeans on with it?
That's what I'm saying that's Le Roy's.
She need trousers.
put on things like that.
Crazy boy.
she don't look  
English 
But where does 
She makes similar 
Yes.
You're telling me.
What are boo boos 
And the thing about it he's only one.
Pardon?
Ready.
A boo boos.
Here come and chat for us.
Sing Carolina.
Oh Carolina,
Carolina  
Carolina 
Carolina 
Go on sing it.
Go on sing it.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no  dick no dick,girls do it.
Let me try  I was wondering why he was doing it then I realized on the tape she done that innit.
what  you got on your tape .
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, there's no limit
one sort of tune on it.
Yes.
Yeah.
What.
nowhere.
What's that?
The rest is development song.
Got a rogering.
Mm  
Why did you tell him  got that?
I told you  she don't even listen to me.
Coffee.
Go bring me back the drink and get me a Coke.
and only one Coke 
give it to me, give it to me.
I didn't want the Tango, she didn't listen to me what I said.
Co the computer's on your brain.
thing .
Sorry about that.
No no no no no no no no 
I'm every people.
I'm every day people 
sing  every day.
Every day.
you say I'm, I'm every day people   Sing it
I'm  
I'm I'm every day people, before I met you my life was standing still, it was standing still I had a one way ticket   
still, it was standing still I had a one way ticket   
do you want some, here
that  came in my head and all I wanna do if money you can  to I wanna love you, for my heart and  you make me a brand new woman, you make me ha, you wanna   
Can't sing that's why 
Sound like Karen.
Here are woman.
Maxine  
Max.
Yeah 
Max.
P O J
Beg.
Talk  say something.
Say no Grace's school friends   
Is the original bad boy Roma.
Who's that 
got a bit more.
So he's your boyfriend int he what's wrong with that?
You know I don't like  don't
After you Lloyd come here every day 
get it right.
Hey Dawn.
Dawn she loves  come here every day.
Romax
Ra ra ra ra.
speak to you man.
Funny.
Funny  funny.
Just get out man you idiot.
drink  food would you.
Glen said he think he, he might he thinks you are .
say something.
all that noise innit.
Glen said he think  
Leave him to you 
yesterday innit 
What place?
Erm We West London,Brixton
Er
Do you know where  her.
Chanine.
ro ro ro ro ro 
Glen tunes  alright innit?
proudly present the best
break dance in memory of the late  
Talk.
Don't like it.
Talk.
Don't like it.
She's only two.
She's on lyrics man her dad.
He's so laz unbelievable  my brother.
Dad I wish I was you,laughing at the bar beach  come here, misguided crew  I couldn't handle those things   because I come in say  this is my can't stand my brother boy  
you are the one, you're the only one saying 
a big 
think  Rab King's gonna be there.
He don't, he don't
man
Football.
mind you baby  love.
How does it work in there?
C J Crazy.
Oh wo wo yeah yeah 
Come here.
butterfly.
butterfly.
Butterfly.
That stupid bag, original 
Shine your .
Shine your .
Shine your 
Shane I can't really hear it, can you hear it?
Hello mumma Africa  Hello mumma Africa  
Sing it sing it 
Stop it.
Go on Maxine 
You're copying mine Maxine.
conversation 
again.
conversation.
What's that one again ?
conversational 
It's meant to be family conversation.
Look 
That's my mum.
You still don't get  you know.
Oh well you might as well stay cos  five minutes.
No 
What's the time out there?
I phoned mum you know tell mum to get ready 
Jason come on 
Look like  look like  
Not a boy he's a man
Oh quiet .
Come back 
hello shine your god.
Go on shine your god.
Shine your god.
Go on.
Oh 
Shine your god.
Go on.
Shine your god.
I don't know what you're talking about.
video there in your room for you.
Shine your god.
I am black.
Hello my dear how are you?
I'm alright.
Shine your god.
Shine your god.
go up the stairs.
made it.
Do you want to take it you can finish it in your room.
Alright yeah.
Finish it in the next 
have you got fifty P?
spent it on 
You Glen no.
You, you haven't got any money either?
Oh well what am I gonna do ah?
me for 
Oh alright.
asking him.
What's this?
Football again,a all my brothers they love football so much  watching
Bye  bye
Yeah come in Janine, hold on.
Shine your god.
Shine your god.
Yeah shine your god, come on come shine.
Where you taking him?
Are you gonna sing a song?
seven o'clock you know.
You can't  
America.
at four.
Shine the god
Shine your god.
Shine the god.
Oh yeah 
Oh yeah 
Oh yeah 
Shine the god.
Shine the god.
Shine your god.
That was my sister singing yeah.
Shine the god.
God you know.
just go and answer that door.
That's my brother he always does it when he wakes up   he dribbles as well.
Don't worry 
Easy.
Shine the god.
shine the god.
Make her sing that other song.
Shine 
Yeah.
Yeah 
Yeah yeah yeah.
as well innit.
Arrested development innit.
Yeah.
let Robert sing it, let  go on, sing it Grace.
Turn it down.
Wait a minute  Robert have a go first then.
Wow yeah wow yeah wow yeah wow mm mm mm 
Come on it's not having no more that's it.
Wow yeah wow yeah .
That's it, hang on there I can't
That's the finish of the tape you know.
I was saying
taking 
Mm.
Mummy's taking notes.
Can't hear you know.
It's funny go on.
mummy's taking notes.
I can hear Blanche out there you know.
Yeah yeah.
hear it a bit louder.
Go on go again go on again.
I better get my jacket innit.
Ro-Ro
Ro-Ro
Ro-Ro.
timber down 
That one was Jason not her.
Yo whose card's this?
Whose card's this?
Whose card's this?
Mine 
Go back inside Ro-Ro.
Go back, come inside.
That dress is mine.
Mm
It's Romax's card.
It's  mine.
Yeah where's Nicky?
I'm going.
Go on home.
W w where's Leander?
Gone to school.
Where's Stella?
Gone
Gone where?
Gone.
Where?
I lost it.
You lost it?
Lost it what's the other one called again?
Maxine.
Where's Maxine?
Gone.
Gone where?
Gone with John.
She's gone with John.
Yeah.
wow  wow.
Where's Kathy?
Gone, gone work.
She gone work.
Yeah.
Oh.
What you say.
hear it, can you hear it?
W what did you say?
Erm Samantha wants you.
Alright.
Come here.
Hello Grace.
Hi.
Wh who wants me?
Who wants me?
Do you want to say bye to the lady?
Say buy to the lady.
Bye 
leggings you're not going out tonight.
What leggings?
The one 
T what do you want to buy those ones.
I'm going out tonight.
So
business.
Not bad is it?
What's that?
I definitely have to wear a top cos never worn no tights on.
Mm tights 
Yeah but obviously I'm not going to waste time putting tights on.
Pardon.
sixteen  fifteen one.
Who's Yvonne?
Can't even work like a jacket.
see the bottom.
The what?
From the back I mean.
Oh I ain't wound it up after I put my shirt down there.
Oh.
Look alright though.
It's worth the money innit?
Yeah.
Can't go wrong for the money.
Looks alright.
The  cheap .
Aye you wear a shirt underneath it.
If I don't wear a shirt underneath it, it's gonna look stupid.
does that look stupid now?
What?
turn around and we'll see how that shirt looks.
Can never wear a shirt  it meant for a shirt underneath it.
It's meant to wear like this.
Yeah it is, it is.
Got tights on.
You got  I just can't put my jacket over it.
So hot
So you so you cou couldn't do it anyway.
Ah.
There you are,
Gums 
Gum  gum.
Here  yeah I know what you're saying.
I bought the other one.
I bought it for I don't really like it .
Nor do I really.
Wanna read it?
Eh?
Eh?
not record me right.
Shut your mouth Angela.
You're recording  .
Shut your fucking mouth .
You bitch !
The mike ain't
The mike's gone again .
Testing, testing one two three.
It's gone 
Yeah.
I'm gonna 
oh testing, testing one two three.
You can hear  
Yeah it's on there.
What the fuck are you doing here?
Yes   
Shut up you bastard, shut up .
What, what?
Ian.
Your mum Ian, your mum.
Your mum's got a moustache.
Your mum's got a hairy tongue 
I've fucked your mum , I've fucked 
Your mum's got a  on her  
It's alright it can hear both of you, there's two mikes look.
Er er  alright  that's stupid anyway, forget it.
I've fucked, I've fucked your mum whilst your dad was wanking on the sofa.
Not funny.
What do you mean not funny?
What do you mean not funny?
I find that funny, oh ha ha ha ha.
Ha ha ha.
You're not funny.
Well I'm meant to be funny darling .
I've got food stuck in me  
and I had you and your mum.
Pardon .
Your mum gave me a ninety niner and a
What's
and a erm 
for the rest of the viewers what's a ninety niner Ian?
Ninety niner, remember what I done to you last night.
Yeah what exactly is a ninety niner?
You know  you know what it is .
No I don't know.
What I done was er erm what I done was erm erm erm erm er
Do you want a ham sandwich or do you want a  come on   what's a ninety niner Ian?
I ninety niner is  
Remember what remember what you  you're the one that introduced the ninety niner to me so I'm saying you should know about it.
No I didn't introduce it Ian er it must be Chantal.
introduced it  yeah yeah yeah yeah  
Oh yeah Chantal innit?
She gave me a ninety niner.
gone again .
You should record, no you should record that wom the woman, this woman 
fucking 
Alright then   Right all sit around, take off your coats   sit down, shut up   what was it again?
sit up, shut up.
Say that again Sach?
What was it?
Sit down, look, I've forgotten.
Oh you idiot.
Sit down  
shut up, no sit down look up and shut up.
What you listening to?
This.
Come here a minute.
Can I have a word, can I have a word please?
About what?
I in private.
It's private with a microphone!
Clear off.
Oh.
Oh my God  
Too loud   Hello, can you hear me?
Yeah.
So what do we have to do today?
Ah?
What do we have to do?
In this lesson?
Yeah.
We have to learn  she's gonna give us a photo or something and we have to  
A photo?
Yeah.
Mm.
spot the difference.
Fuck off.
Said she wants all of that in.
Ah?
Said she wants all of that.
Who's that?
Teacher that's letting us do this.
Is she?
Really?
Yeah.
Who, who's your teacher?
can't remember what her name is.
Miss Gemma .
What's she doing, let you do?
No, not Gemma.
Grace
Grace
Yeah?
What was she gonna let you do?
No just have to record people's conversations.
So what's the  then?
Oh we had to do that erm Neighbours  yesterday .
What?
Neighbours?
What did she say?
I dunno.
What did you say?
Spot the difference, how had life changed for the family  
I didn't even watch Eastenders, I missed it.
Oh yeah  see it.
I missed it yesterday.
Why?
Cos I didn't watch it.
I was doing something else.
No well you didn't miss much anyway.
I just forgot all about it.
No you didn't miss much anyway.
that was true  innit?
What?
Yeah.
Yeah.
But erm he asked, you know Stan?
He asked Stan for a job but he wouldn't give him one
Oh.
he's after something,h his apprenticeship  so they give him a thousand pound
I don't know what you gotta do you know.
some photos.
Is it?
Sam  you know erm Ricky's
Oh yeah.
She's out of it.
I know but I, I was just saying that she 
Ages ago love.
She can come back any time  she can come back any time though.
Really.
Di you know Diana, Frank Butcher's son?
Yeah.
She's supposed to be coming in, back  
Oh her  
she's boring anyway.
I suppose so.
Er can we have that away please Grace.
Yeah Miss, hold on a minute.
We're gonna switch off now.
Is it recording?
Yeah.
Did you see Cluedo then?
Yeah.
It's good innit?
What you mean you have find a f you have to find a murderer?
That
Yeah.
Yeah 
That is good.
Who did it again?
weren't it?
Yeah.
And Jerry Hall, did you see her?
Her lipstick, oh it's bright red innit?
I mean bright red!
Like Ian's jacket innit?
Like Ian's jacket ?
Yeah, I'm telling you.
Yeah.
Come on Miss!
Then she wonders why we haven't got on with the work.
I wanna know I wanna know where Ian got his bottle of Coke from, I like that bottle of Coke.
It's nice innit?
Yeah.
Yeah I want one.
I don't like the one in cans I want get one of the bottles.
Where did he get that from?
Can you hear me?
Can you hear me Grace?
Can you hear me Grace?
Yeah.
funny  I was making so much noise  can hear it.
What's the man doing then?
Digging isn't he?
Boring innit?
Mm.
Some boring work boy.
What did they have in the house?
The goods they have in the house, right, they've got chairs  
I've put they've mostly got  table and chairs.
Yeah but you don't know what they've got here,it's inside the house innit ?
Yeah but it's full up  
The goods  
it's still that house though so they're gonna  chair in it.
So what you think, they've got more things there?
Er  all the same really cos it's still the same house.
So you think, what, you don't think that they're
Are those two different families or are they
They're the same.
So what are you saying, that erm
They'd probably have more in that one than they will there 
Where?
cos they're probably better off there than they are there.
Or that 
The goods they have in the house as well, the goods they have in the house er seem basically the same then.
To make clothes and  
So have you been up Walthamstow then?
Ah?
Have you been up Walthamstow?
You saying there's nice boys up there?
Yeah!
Up Walthamstow?
They have got some nice boys up there.
Why did you say that?
What?
They've got nice boys up Walthamstow.
What?
What the hell are you talking about?
You said they had nice boys at Walthamstow.
Yeah.
Yeah?
nice boys at Walthamstow.
I went to  market, did I tell you that?
For the first time?
Yeah.
It's a big market there.
Yeah.
What shops did you look in?
really, I was just looking in the market.
I went
Did you look in any of the Naff Naff shops?
Pretty expensive man.
I thought it was cheap.
That's the cheapest place you can get it from, the .
bags twenty pound and purses, they had some nice  
No I mean the clothes.
Oh yeah, well
I get most of mine Naff Naff stuff from there.
I know but that's expensive that shop.
What shop?
I wanna know how to get there though cos if
What shop?
There's a couple down there.
can't remember what it was called.
Reds?
Don't know what it is.
That's, oh, I love some of the Naff Naff stuff in there but it's really dear.
That's what I'm saying.
clothes on the market.
Mm.
Down  they've got 
They had these waistcoats 
You don't know where to, you don't know how to get there?
No.
Don't you know how to get to ?
time I tell you.
I know Grace!
But 
Well if she lives down Dawson, all she has to do is get a one O six to Clapton, right?
Yeah.
And just cross over, you know
And, what, get a number eight bus?
You get S two.
S two?
Yeah.
And it takes you all the way there?
It takes you straight there.
It takes you outside the market and then you walk through.
Yeah just 
I I know there's a bus stop before the market.
Yeah, that's, yeah it takes you there and you come off there, you have to keep on looking out the window  you can't miss the stop anyway.
I know, I know it goes 
They're only little buses so you won't be able to miss the stop.
No you can't miss it man.
I know it goes past the hospital, right?
Yeah.
And you have to go through this er park thing and then
Victoria Park.
It's basically near Victoria Park innit?
Roman Road?
Dunno.
It is.
No it's a good market.
Do you know where Vicky Park is?
Course you do.
It's near there, round the back  
That's how you get there, well you wanna go there this Saturday.
Is it open Saturday?
When's it closed?
I know it's closed during the week or summat.
No it isn't.
No it ain't.
It's open on Tuesdays and Thursdays in the week
Mm.
and on Saturday, it's not open any other day.
Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday, that's it.
It closes at two o'clock though dunnit?
Or whatever.
Mm two on a week days and, what is it?
About four 
But there's a lot of people on a Saturday you know
I know.
I got people s stepping on my feet, I was, I was practically screaming.
I haven't been down the Roman for ages.
I've been down there.
You see because someone took me in the car.
I'll have to go down there on a Saturday, my mum said she'd take me down there.
I thought it was a number eight bus.
S two.
Write it down   how to get there 
Do you know Jasons down there?
Who?
Jasons.
Dunno.
I don't really look at the shops 
It's outside the market.
I've probably been in all the shops down there but I, I don't know what the name is.
There's a pub across the road anyway  from the Roman.
Do you erm   you know erm, what is it?
Erm  what's that shop called?
Come on we're supposed to do work you know, we're talking about these  
So work's boring innit?
I know.
It's worse than we ever had   Where's Miss gone?
Dunno.
Look she's there.
This work is boring though.
What question you on?
E  environment.
Are you?
E?
Mm.
look, the pictures ain't that clear man.
The environment.
All I need now innit?
E  the environment  
It don't show you much does it?
That's what I'm saying.
The  should say 
We've got Irish family 
the definite
We've got I Grace you've got Irish family.
Yeah.
I've got Indian   Indian.
Alright Miss?
Yeah?
see what she's taping.
See what I'm taping?
Aha.
It's for a good cause Miss.
For your coursework?
What's it for?
For English Miss.
Yeah but for your English coursework?
No.
It's a woman's doing it and she  school innit, or something like that?
That's it, yeah  
She take, she took six people 
Taping children's conversations.
Teenagers.
Teenagers.
I'm not actually talking to a teenager though I can be talking to anyone.
Miss don't believe you.
Well let's say I'm, I'm just a little suspicious.
It is Miss.
Ask Mr , talk to Mr  then  cos he told me to do it.
Ha!
Right the environment.
Come on then
Oh poo!
don't let me put you off.
What are you shaking your head at Grace?
The environment.
There's not even a definite difference 
The environment test changed 
There isn't a definite difference?
No.
Well in one they've got a roof over their head and in the other they haven't, I would've thought that was a rather major difference.
Yeah that bit yeah only that though innit?
say like they've got trees 
You could put that they got erm
The environment is the area around 
crops 
in which you live.
It can be your home, where you work
where they are  there is that all er  grass and there's all stones  and things like  oh I dunno.
Because they, they got grass  and they ain't got
That's something erm
farmland  
They're just di cos they're digging up all the grass, that's why they ain't got any grass.
So it's a different environment cos 
yeah, it's a different
not like land.
You know in the forties they had just  soil and stones you know?
Yeah.
you've got time to do another one so you've got some comparisons erm 
What would you say , what would you say  what would you say, what would,oh my lord  
You don't usually get  would you say that this ground had been, became richer or poorer?
what is it?
What would you say?
They come r po 
What do you think?
Have a look.
Poorer innit?
Can you say, can you see ways in which life  
The family became worse because 
Can you see ways in which life for the family  has become better and become worse.
so you don't have to write any of that, you just write them two.
Become better?
No there isn't is there?
I put the family, the family became worse because
Have you done better?
No I'm doing worse first  and I just put because 
Because what?
What you on?
Mm?
E.
E?
Yeah.
Because of what?
I know the  whose glasses?
Hers.
What?
Mm.
Yours?
Deaf boy.
What you writing?
Well they haven't really come better off have they?
They haven't really 
They're not your glasses.
They haven't really come, they haven't really become better off have they?
They've come worse off.
Worser?
That's not a word.
Worse off.
Oh, right.
What question you on?
Two?
Yeah.
Two yeah.
Would you say that th this family generally became richer or poorer?
Well they became poorer because they  got all their things taken innit ?
That's what I think.
That's what I thought.
Well you can say that they become poorer.
I would s I would say  that they have come poorer  because  they're getting all their things taken, they're, they  cos
What's for dinner mum?
What's for dinner?
Look.
Chicken, roast chicken.
Yeah.
And er
You want, and we don't erm
What?
And make it, make it .
What's in there?
What's in that pot there?
It's some erm, erm broccoli.
Broccoli.
And what's in there?
Rice.
Rice.
And what's in there?
I got some more fish.
Fish.
You can have some of it .
Yeah.
I want my dinner in  in a little bit.
In a moment.
Want dinner now??
Well soon.
I did myself a .
Ah?
Be right here .
Alright.
And we  and we'll be .
Let me have my dinner.
Yeah.
You getting the bus?
Get the bus where?
Over the shops.
Just up the street.
Oh where you going?
Well I,buy erm  .
Oh.
have you got trespassers?
Just give me some of them.
Ah?
Is it?
Yeah.
Have you got the ba , the pound there?
I said to him come at four.
So Samantha you went and saw ?
Mhm.
Ha?
Aha.
Mm.
dress though .
Say it again?
She loves my  dress down there.
She can wear a cardigan though innit?
She can wait outside here.
Get 
Mm?
inside and take her cardigan off she'll sweat to death.
If, as long as her clothes are cooler underneath then you can't see  innit?
She might wear her shorts thing innit?
Yeah, could do.
Cos she wouldn't wear the top again.
I reckon she'll wear, she'll wear the, the shorts.
The shorts are ta , erm  the business there.
I can't believe that erm  Rummas' short thing can fit Duvane.
You know Rummas wear that, is that one  how do, how old was Rummas when he wore that Samantha?
Samantha!
Samantha!
Yeah?
How old was Rummas when he wore that?
What?
That!
That'll fit Rum , that'll fit Duvane.
Yeah.
Probably  probably about the same  as that.
He was quite big cos  Maxine said that she tried erm 
That'll fit Rummas as well actually .
Yeah.
Maxine goes she tried that suit on Duvane and it fit him.
Said it fit him, that.
It's a little bit big but it's alright  she said.
What you looking for?
You don't know what to put on?
Mm mm.
Ah?
How was school?
It was easy.
I know.
Cos you're a bad girl!
Bad girl.
Maxine got  oh I'll wash
Sorry?
Alright?
That's the way it has to be.
Gonna look 
Shut up!
a little bit bigger than normal .
Well didn't, didn't Dawn show you something mum?
That she bought?
But she gave to er, it was Elisha's before.
It's a dress and it's got the bottoms underneath  like bell bottoms,bell bottoms.
But erm, we call them trousers.
And they got little trousers at the bottom.
Know what I mean?
The dress and the 
What has it got little things on the bottom?
No.
I said a dress and a the little trousers a underneath.
Yeah.
That's what I said.
Yeah.
Mummy .
Them kind of things.
And Samantha the neck's dirty.
The neck is dirty  and the thing is white  and it looks, and it's so, the neck is dirty of the top, of the 
What 
dress.
It's dirty!
I mean why did she take it?
She gets, she's, she erm, she gave it to .
Samantha look at him with my glasses on.
Why's that, why did she take it?
She gave it to her Samantha.
In a bag?
Yeah.
Cos I, I certainly didn't say nothing to her.
Cos I want nothing to do with her.
Oh erm , Dawn said she's gonna dry clean it.
Cos it's nice that's why.
Mhm.
Dawn said she's gonna erm dry clean it.
Cos it's nice.
It is nice.
It's quite nice.
But it's dirty boy.
Ee ee
Denise said oh couldn't you at least wash it?
Couldn't yo 
Sod her!
couldn't you at least wash it?
This is, the neck is black.
Mm.
And it's black, it is black.
Dawn'll have to show you anyway.
I thought Dawn would have shown you.
Na na na na, na na na, na na na na na na .
It's squashing it.
He is
you jump and dance .
You're squashing it.
It's breaking it!
You can buy me one of them knickers, one of them erm  erm briefs, the ones that  bought you  .
Aha.
That's for Valentine's Day.
Ha?
A Valentine's Day present man.
And buy him erm  what 
He says to me erm  buy me a cap, buy him a cap for his birthday.
A hat.
Is that what he wants?
No he said to me that.
Well buy it then.
No he said it to me but  .
The most you're spending for that is ten pound.
Five pounds.
What d'ya mean five pounds?
So hat well, well he probably wants th , the most expensive thing is about ten pound.
I'm  that he wants.
Well you, but he di 
I know he , he will come out with something big, you know what I mean?
Mm.
Say extra, you know what I mean?
I don't want extra, yeah.
I want this.
Yeah.
But like said you sa , you said that he  you said he wanted cap innit?
Yes.
That is exactly what,know what I mean?
Must get him a Raiders one.
So what time are we going out about?
About, about erm one you going out?
Dunno yet.
Oh my gosh!
Dunno.
Wait a minute.
Everything we do.
Really?
I want a cup of tea as well.
You want a cup of tea?
Yeah.
I'll do it in a minute.
Mum Jason says, Jason don't get no tea now.
Neville have to go out and change.
cos you, you was, you was sleeping and  just wake up.
Well can't, why can't Michael help?
I don't understand.
Yeah, he gone to work.
Cos she just wake, er, erm Neville just wake up  and erm
Where you going Neville?
For what?
Get a pay phone.
Get some ham.
Do you think you pay for it without any money Grace?
I dunno.
What pay phone?
Ninety nine pounds.
What's that in it?
Did you see it?
Mum.
Did you see it Grace?
No.
Oh.
Can you pay for it?
It's in here.
Take your coat off man.
Take your coat 
Sam.
off!
It is off!
Look!
I want a cup of tea.
Tea?
Yeah.
Er er    you give, you have to Jess er some  cereal  I'll give her a cup of tea.
Mm.
I'll 
Mum , can you save me the one with the erm
Yes,you don't put sugar, you know.
No.
These things hurt.
, look better like this don't he?
You change the t shirt ma.
Well, well, it it it, you know, it's not, it's not dirty you know, you know what
The colour mum.
it's the colour.
Put on the other one upstairs.
Which one?
The orange one.
Where is it?
It's upstairs in the bag.
Erm  it dirty innit?
I dunno.
Yeah.
Oh.
It's dirty.
For er, you know, have to be  dirty innit?
You know that?
No.
Yeah!
It's still dirty.
Right take it off.
And er, and we don't have a cup of tea yet.
Oh.
So  .
It need fixing there.
You make  today?
No school.
Ah?
No school.
Why?
Staff day.
Oh.
I see.
Come in.
Sinead wants a biscuit.
Go on inside.
you, you want it or not?
I dunno.
Why are you coming and telling me.
It's him wanted to know.
I know.
Oh.
Mm.
Anyway, what's he coming out telling me Sinead wants a biscuit for?
He's crazy man!
Cos .
I'll see in a minute.
Norman!
That wo go out there, would go out there like that?
So what, she had a big hole?
Cos she had a big hole like that and holes there!
Oh.
Did she have studs on it?
Yes.
Eh man.
Were the holes all
All, all over.
All over.
Norman!
And what's that sitting on my  give me a hand for my bed you know.
But, only if I can definitely co , what about Norman?
Come out.
No.
I'm saying no matter what my mum would never let me come for an hour, two hour.
Where's that?
Then you can't have Norman  any more.
You know?
No man?
Of, and your mum must not care.
Yeah, maybe they don't live in it, they must have the wrong place innit?
Maybe.
They can't have Norman's one.
Cos Norman sa , they wouldn't come to a house like that.
Norman!
No.
That's er, really terrible then.
And make up everything.
Who's saying that to ?
That's where they have to live in Jamaica.
Hello.
Oh.
Alright.
I just work there.
I'll just, I'll have to work till later man.
About one, quarter to one.
They just dance and that
Look I'll see you.
Yeah.
Bye!
Let me shut my room  please.
Shut the door.
Go on then.
You're really looking .
I say they, they never have Norman.
That's enough.
Eh boy.
Grace go and take them out here.
Come here.
No mum, why don't you just go.
Mum, you're worrying yourself for no reason.
I'll miss you.
No.
You can put them if you  it's alright.
Ring, ring, ring, ring.
Do it later.
Grace, you never give me a hand sha ,.
I chase  
Nah.
That's right.
I'll talk about it later mum cos I like these videos.
Yeah?
Fine.
And sh she went, Sheila don't get that drink down here love.
So it weren't 
What's that for?
that good?
It was better last week?
Oh no.
What?
Was it better last week?
Yes I said.
Mm.
I want a drink.
Ha?
I want a drink.
Look I want!
What is this then?
Could I have a drink please?
A drink please?
Ah?
Could I have a drink please?
I want!
Hold on.
Er I want  I want
They won't pick the phone up so wait till later.
About twelve thirty.
Who wants a wine gum?
Where's your ?
What?
What's a ?
What?
What's a ?
What's that?
Talking like a duffhead!
I'm  Ha!
Dunno why you got a ?
Where?
Mm.
Where?
Sing Oh Carolina.
Oh Carolina!
Ah  .
Yeah!
Oh God!
Rubbish!
Totally rubbish!
You can't even sing.
You might sort of like bark.
They're er
Stop being cheeky you.
Oh Carolina .
There's no buses.
There's no buses running up to the centre.
And there's, there's no buses running.
So you can't go in.
There ain't no buses running.
No buses then.
What you got Grace?
Let's try that.
I know.
Yeah.
Erm  what time do you want me to come?
Don't know.
Well maybe
should be in all day innit?
Will you be in all day?
Aye.
Dawn!
What?
Is that Mona?
I can't get off.
I can't  
Well don't!
Don't sit down !
I'm coming when I phone.
Yeah.
I think it might be easier.
Yeah.
I'll phone.
Eh?
Yeah alright then.
Ah?
Yeah, if if I know, if I remember the number.
What's the number?
Yeah just shut up Dawn !
What's the number again?
It's nice as it is right.
Yeah like, you can say something and got it wrong again.
Aha.
Oh yeah.
Come and get me.
Yeah.
Yeah alright then.
Yeah, later .
Who's that?
Wenley.
What he wants you up his house?
Yeah.
Eh.
Said there is no buses running though  that go Dawston way.
I gotta walk to it.
Walk like  they do  .
What time are you going?
Dunno.
I said, he goes  like, I said to him when I, if I do come then I'll phone.
And he said
It's my little baby.
I'm getting married in, in one of them.
Get a  a really good one though.
Alright.
I'm getting a car like that.
Cos I'm gonna mash mine up.
I 
I know.
I might 
See her face.
Gonna mash up.
Gonna cut back at my work.
Dirty, smoking , chicken.
And reindeers .
I mi , I ca , I wanna cut mine all the time.
I don't wanna cut I like, I want all of it done.
I know but then it 
But, I don't even care about the back.
I just come
All the way down.
Oh I think that 
What are you curly at the back?
Yeah.
I'm having it done.
No.
I'm gonna ha have it, cut, I want it cut round like that and I want
Different colour?
you know the sideburns down, yeah  colour that side.
Pardon?
And
Pardon?
Heavy at the back.
No.
No.
How can you answer the phone like that.
You don't me you ha , you can't answer the phone like that.
Go and get the phone.
Well I thought I'd asked somebody .
Yeah.
Oh right.
Yeah.
Right, I'll get Dawn ?
Put it there.
No here.
Hello.
Hold on.
Hello.
Yeah.
Pretty cool.
No Grace.
I'm gonna kill you .
Going to kill you.
Dawn get up then.
Oh wha , what, what time are you over the girl's house?
Just when  Dawn gets up .
What time are you going to the girl's house?
Half four but I've gotta find out 
I'm gonna kill you.
I've gotta find out, if if I have my haircut well we're gonna stay away.
I can't see you.
I quite like that.
And I've gotta find out 
Well Sheena's nice , she knows what you want.
And I saw her before and I'd find out.
Well what I wanna do is phone up
and I said we , I'm gonna erm  well it's more like a weave there.
I want to make a weave going into the top as one innit?
Cos well, where does that start at the top?
Yeah but having all of my hair, that is my hair 
Urgh!
Urgh!
Urgh!
Yeah, really.
And that was, and that was 
The top, the top of her head 
as well though.
the top of her head's about  that long innit?
It's really short.
Well where, where sh , where, where's she weave it from there 
I want to have mine a bit longer 
where she weave it like that?
It's just about, it's, the weave stops about here.
I'll definitely have mine a bit longer man.
I'll have mine a bit longer.
It suits her cos her face is more, but I'd something  a bit longer.
I wanna know how she gets her hair so shiny.
Grease it.
Grease.
Ah!
I dunno man.
It's like the hair is shiny.
I dunno.
Yeah she grease, put grease in it.
But her hair looks different, I'm telling you!
Yeah she grease it.
cos you feel ,like that.
It don't, it don't look no different to me.
Maybe she put grease in it or so , there's some thing, you know, you know like the erm
Just like normal  grease.
you got the, the sheen and that to spray on it to make it shiny.
They've even got it in a book.
Like I see her standing up in the toilet and I thought your hair looks nice innit?
Like, I'm not talking, I don't care whether that, I'm talking about the way her hair's done, the style, the 
Mm.
way it's cut is actually, she went to hairdressers to get it cut.
Once she said she said 
She said she'd done it herself.
she done it herself.
I thought to myself, that is good.
But I couldn't cut my hair tha , myself like that.
You can 
But you can 
curl it.
A lot of people can you know.
Cos Maxine's friend, you remember Maxine's friend?
Yeah, but that's her innit?
I was saying
Are you saying Maxine's friend cut her hair?
Yeah.
Her hair look wicked!
Yeah, it's what I'm saying.
Maxine's friend, yeah, cos she's 
She's the one who dyes it.
she does her hair  she actually weaves her hair herself and she cuts it herself.
Gill says she always got a different hairstyle.
Need my apron.
You can carry on alright?
Once you can weave your hair yourself 
That's good.
and if you cut your hair yourself you, that's good 
you could always change your hairstyle you know that?
Yeah I know.
Cos once you can weave your hair and you cut your hair 
yourself, everybody'd be changing your hair innit?
But Dawn, you should have carried on that course man.
You'd have been doing that.
Where's the ?
Innit?
No I'm not a weaver.
Couldn't do weaving.
What d'ya do?
Yeah , you do everything.
He comes, do you do   and European, that means you gotta do everything.
I'm gonna kill you!
You just got  but I'll have to go there for about three years.
College for about three years.
Cos, they was telling us about the weave for the white people and they were showing us a booklet and the 
and the erm
There, there, there.
Well Kana's must be thin innit?
Yeah it's got a little thin one on at the back.
Mm.
I'll show you what er down the road.
imitating gun noise)
Cos Michelle got that one.
Yeah sure.
In, in the shop.
Can you tell?
Yeah.
I'm gonna kill you!
Could she do mine?
Well she does hair.
She does hair?
Yeah.
Oh!
I thought you meant that she just done hers.
Well obviously she do her hair then she can do a weave innit?
On the side of mine something like that.
Well you could, like Sharon did it on EastEnders at the side  just long there and
Oh.
Come here.
Oh.
I also think that was too long.
I want a side parting down the 
Give it to me Sinead.
Give it back to her then.
Yeah.
Give it to me.
No!
I told her.
It's mine.
No!
No!
Give it to me.
Tell her to give it to Dawn.
Give it to Dawn.
Next time you give it to me!
Okay?
No.
You stupid monster!
Stupid monster.
Go on a picnic!
Go on a picnic.
Picnic.
Picnic .
Picnic.
Picnic.
Says 
exactly 
Picnic.
as I speak it right?
Picnic.
Picnic.
Ninky.
Nickick
Nicky.
Nicky.
Nicky .
No, Nicky.
Nicky .
I lost it.
I lost it.
Nicky.
I lost , I lost it.
I lost it.
Nicky.
I lost it.
Where 
Nicky.
you find it.
Where is it?
The slippers you lost?
It went, woo ooh woo woo ooh!
They were in the closet.
In the closet .
I left it  I left it on there.
Where's your bottle?
I lost it.
Where's your bottle?
I lost it?
Well, where did you lose it?
In my car.
What did you do?
Yeah, my, my
Could be in the .
It's so, it so stupid!
Where's your bottle?
No, no, listen here.
You're trying your best not to laugh .
Erm  mm mm.
Get down boy.
Got a bit of bother with Mel boy.
Right.
Sinead  what 
Erm 
did you do with your bottle?
so , I lost it.
I lost it.
I threw it out of Mark's car window.
I car Mar ,Mar , Mark 
No.
car window.
Dawn 
Erm 
Yes?
Phone 
No.
the woman right.
Ah ah.
She's got it.
Go on.
The girl's there.
Mm?
It weren't 
It's her.
it's her.
You phone her .
Plus we, I waited half an hour.
Oh yeah right it's sleeping 
No.
innit?
Well I couldn't sleep right.
She didn't mind me sleeping.
What you phone up that early for?
It's like that when I do phone up innit?
Oh!
Could you find tha , that erm thing for me  here?
You'll have to give Glen the money though.
Oh yeah, I'll give him the money now.
Well you  yeah you tell though Glen though innit?
All Glen's gotta do is give me the car, if he doesn't
Hello.
it's just until then innit?
Hello who's calling?
Okay, hold on a minute.
Miss   from school .
Ha?
Miss  from school.
I'm not here though.
innit?
Well what did that go, Australian, Australian?
Shall I come with you then?
Look!
How long you been standing there for?
I've been hiding there for ages.
I'm get ,anything on it.
Hair.
Yeah, leave me alone.
Pick me.
Leave me.
Ha ah ha!
Wanna talk to this old girl?
I dunno.
Leave me, leave me, leave me alone!
Ah  
Leave her alone!
Leave me alone.
She got that top off the 
Leave me alone.
teapot while she was on the  toilet .
Come here.
Good at climbing up .
Mm?
You're not really wearing them braces all the time are you?
Yeah.
What's the point of it.
What shall I say to Auntie Val?
Say get lost thick lips!
Oh that's very nice.
Look.
I don't want those.
Well get out of my face.
Sinead where d'ya wanna go today?
Wanna come to that house  and see that girl?
Yeah.
What girl?
Sinead now eat up that
Katrina?
Oh yeah.
You two are a whole handful 
Katrina.
right.
Rina, Rina.
Sabrina, Sinead  .
Hello Sinead.
She's gone red .
She always talks to me.
You are going to start to liven up .
Well I'm gonna 
Ooh ooh!
no cos why you all go in the sitting room with Allerton, they've gone in the kitchen with Allerton  she'll laugh.
Then I'll laugh .
Oh.
Sha , I bet Dawn has not a 
Let me see.
going.
Mummy.
She'll come to the door, bye!
She'll laugh off, she's so  so damn miserable eh?
And there's the 
So , aren't you going?
No I started  but no one 's worse than little Katri , er Katrina.
Yeah I know.
Cos we was over there 
Ah ah ah ah 
Is that 
She do 
ah ah ah ah.
she don't like to dance.
And you said 
When?
that  whe when she told me she is ru , she's erm 
Christ!
She's rude right!
Yeah.
She's spoilt, put it that way.
They don't beat her that's why?
I can imagine .
They don't beat her.
Cos after she went there to see me, you spoil him.
Why do you spoil him?
Oh no man!
They go we can't help it.
They say they can't 
It's .
help it.
I was already told.
Ah ah ah!
Just shut up man will you!
I thought it's only child.
Oh there's five there.
No I don't think it's a only child.
Let me see, four, five.
Then he can't , he says he can't help spoiling them.
That's what he gets.
Them?
Yeah.
He 
Ah?
can't help it.
But the last one of them 
Well he said something last week 
He says to me, could you shut up know what I mean?
.
See?
Oh.
Urgh ah, urgh ah, urgh ah.
Everyone sit down !
Er, what does he know about computer?
He makes  me laugh boy .
His face is big boy.
Oh really?
No, little boy.
I know.
I remember.
He's round.
His bigger head, no the body's not really round is it?
Yeah, the body's round.
Yeah I reckon he is.
But he's 
I've 
actually round and big.
That's why I say no good.
Aargh!
Aargh!
He's alright?
Cos he's big?
Well, that's alright.
There you go man.
No big something.
I'm saying that his face is big.
He look different from the last time me and him were mates cos he's got older.
.
He's erm, Malcolm X. 
He looks alright.
Beany look a bit better as well.
He cut his hair something?
Oh yeah, the hat on innit?
He don't look any better to me.
Ah?
Didn't look any better to me.
Yeah he looked better with the hat.
And not, not that stupid wearing a hat though.
Yeah, boy.
He had a hat on like erm  you know that one that Anthony's got, the black one?
Ah.
Th , where are we sitting man?
With Jo with Josie and Beany.
Oh it's lovely innit?
Beany's in charge.
He does that every time somebody's coming.
Every night he goes out at half past ten, I said right .
Mm.
Gill  .
Ooh I saw  with Jordan.
But it's co , Gill'll say no but she's lying.
Yeah !
That confusion if she ever brings her in work and she can take .
You look posh there.
Tired?
No oh oh oh.
Come here.
Oh what's that ?
And I was going  
Say, you know, you know when , you when Gill said to you 
So try there.
I don't see you going off, tell you what
Dawn.
Yeah.
You know the 
Come here Sinead.
Dawn that
What?
you when Gill said to you 
Ah!
Ah ah ah.
about the split.
Ah ah ah , ah ah ah.
I see.
Yeah?
You only Da , Dawn did you see that?
In the beg , er and this is very  cos that's exactly what the, Nadine said to me.
Does Gill's split ever end?
Erm, and that's his, Chris and them.
Who's the other 
See her split.
on ?
A split Dawn  skirt, or dress whatever it was.
Why what she wearing?
Can you remember?
It was really massive isn't it?
Split.
Can't remember.
She had either a split skirt or split dress.
Yeah I
And the split didn't end.
Oh yeah, and what's she like?
I slightly remember.
And you know the split was deep innit?
It, all the way up here boy!
So Nadine said to me does that split ever end?
Wo oh, oh oh oh oh.
So Judy you, Samantha was Oasis good?
It was alright.
Better than last week?
No, no nothing's better.
You can take her up there.
Well this week should be better anyway.
If I've got money to go.
Again?
Er er, regulars.
Good, you could go there every week cos there's some men, it's not .
What does Maxine wear?
Er red, er black bobbly thing.
Her what?
Her black bobbly suit.
All in one.
You know, that one you like.
What did Maureen wear then?
And what did Maureen wear?
Black  cycle pants.
And what top?
A shirt?
Maxine.
Can I
I said come here!
Don't tell me no!
Come on, stop using that word!
Cos you don't know what I want you for.
Look at your sleeve!
It's all wet!
She's been in my room you know, I bet you.
What's that your wearing?
What's that?
What have you got there?
Ah!
Do you want one?
No.
You want to come and have a look at my potty.
What's, so how come they're very wet.
Her hands are all wet man!
Smell it?
Smell it what it is.
I dunno.
Smell it Samantha.
It's alright, got a bit of water.
Maybe she put her hand and Glen water, I dunno.
Glen was, Glen was going like that.
Glen was going mum.
Yeah.
It's like this is the only nights what them, d'ya know, Glen was going rather.
Make it look good.
He owe her.
She's old innit?
Ya!
Mine.
No.
Mine.
It's not yours!
It's not yours Sinead.
It's Jacob's.
It's not Jacob's either, mine!
It's the one in the sink innit?
But I haven't got it.
I know.
You go and, you, you, you got, I haven't got it.
You got it.
They look good anyway.
You got it.
No I haven't got it.
Look I haven't got it.
She looks good there.
What is it though?
Well I haven't got it.
The awards.
Ah?
The awards.
My ball.
You're not gonna get my damn things wet.
Where your ball?
What is the point.
Got you some more corn.
Samantha.
Yeah.
Why are you putting your small coat on mummy's bed?
Samantha.
Where are your balls?
It's not just tonight.
Where's the ball?
Well it'll be nice.
Where your ball?
Samantha.
Yeah?
Why are you putting your small coat on mummy's bed?
Crazy man!
Why are you putting  as well in mummy's bed?
Give me your balls?
Yes you  balls.
No.
No.
Reach me your ball.
Reach your ball.
She look fifty nine.
Mm mm.
She does.
She does.
Mummy.
So that's what you're buying the hair for?
You have to buy the sort with  in it.
Have to buy the so , the sort with .
I'm not telling you.
Leave me alone!
I'm telling you.
Leave me.
Ain't yo , you buying this?
Mm.
I'm not telling you.
Leave your  I'm not telling you!
Oh.
Ha?
Oh.
Leave the room!
Erm er
You got eleven grandchildren.
Die!
Where's your balls?
Ah ah.
She knows where.
Told you boy.
Dawn!
Er ah, ba er
I was telling them at school.
About what?
I want those .
What did you do?
Find any?
Well er
What did you Dawn, to Sinead?
I want Winnie the Pooh.
I bet nothing's wrong man.
I'm not telling you.
No you'll cry.
He will cry.
Don't be so vicious man.
Tomorrow night is
Ah?
a big moment!
So why doesn't he get vicious ?
Dunno.
And Maxine goes it is good  pe , erm a lot of children should be like him so they know how to defend theirselves.
No.
I'll defend him.
Oh right.
Look at  he's beating up everyone.
And 
Yeah.
he's completely different when I
Beat Elaine.
Really?
isn't he?
Look at him beating up .
Beat Elaine though.
?
Yeah.
And er clobbering him and
That child kept on licking o my child.
Licks?
In the same room as we've been sitting.
We don't normally do this.
Exactly.
That's all she does.
She spoils him boy.
When we take, when we take  
I suppose  
roll around on the floor.
You and Michelle bought one.
Yes she licked him half way through a bad one.
Yeah but 
Well that's what I mean, that's why I said.
yeah but see right, if she licked hard
Imagine er that  imagine gonna hit him when it, or sh , he does something to her?
Yeah.
Tha him, look how, look how he after mummy  and I give him 
Yeah.
one slap, I just 
I know.
slap him for that.
But  went running to, listened to her.
Yeah I know.
And we're not allowed to have that
I realize, yeah.
Baseball.
Mm?
Baseball.
I know you want it.
That ca , I mean that's what I really noticed about them.
You hit , hit    and Maxine's trying to say, what's what's Rommus 
Er er 
what's mummy letting  Rommus hit her  hit her for?
Er
And mummy goes but Alice, Alice is crying.
You know,th th they don't care if he cries.
They don't care if he cries..
That's because of Rommus.
But Rommus is a baby as well boy.
Shout at him, he cries!
That's what they should at least beat him boy.
You shout at him and he cries.
And he cries loud and  and he cries loud erm  and don't stop.
Alan, Alan goes to our rescue.
Sinead leave him !
What do you keep pulling him for?
Give him it back !
Here are.
Don't be  to Jacob, I'll slap your lips off!
Leave them innit?
Oh.
They bring it all back then.
Who's there?
Who was , when Molly was telling me about Jason, when Jason sa , I could have murdered Ryan doing that!
When Maureen goes to Ryan and Mau , Ryan sa , Maureen said that Ryan was sick  then after, when Ryan knew that he was sick  ooh mummy I'm gonna be sick!
And he only d id it for a reaction.
Aye, aye, aye, aye.
And he went, oh mummy I'm gonna be sick!
No that,
Mummy goes Ryan should have been, should have been a actor.
Ryan, Ryan's sick already last night though.
There was Ryan, Ryan sat there oh mummy, my belly!
Oh oh!
Mummy I'm gonna be sick!
?
No.
They bought a McDonalds.
And he bought up the place Samantha.
And he bought it up all over the place.
Samantha all it,Mau Maureen, Maureen's said he was sitting there eating and he went like this.
Blurgh!
Right on the floor, just like that.
And after he keel over and getting in the
He do it in McDonalds and other place.
Maureen said that, Maureen said that 
the bo , they had finished and Ryan like this  oh mummy I'm gonna be sick!
.
So the, but Ryan said the thing about McDonalds they went up erm  to go toilet er Samantha  you must, you know you feel the vomit coming  he just go like this Samantha  urgh!
Ah ah.
I would slap him Dawn.
Will you grab him?
Put it down.
Because you, you can feel when the vomit's coming  to go to the toilet.
Ryan goes er  blurgh!
Ah!
No man.
Yes.
Alan contact me.
Cos Ryan says, ooh!
I says to him oh look there's a fight  it might be worth having an automatic.
But erm 
Peeow!
Peeow!
Peeow!
Ryan's is erm
All you
he gets upset quick innit?
And like
Yes.
people!
he's got a bad temper.
All the people!
I'm gonna hit you.
What's the matter?
Let go!
Yo , don't you, don't you know ats , that's erm  that's the erm  as a baby's  I can't remember the words she used.
Babies.
I remember, said 
And Ryan said I love you.
Yeah.
Well I
An an er, and er  then they must have got a massive  erm  in a couple of months time, you know, they're not gonna be able to control him, he might be, well if he hits me, I'll just hit him back.
I'm not making, and they're going no I don't mean that, he's gonna fight you or hit you and Steven's not gonna, you're not gonna be able to control him.
If he hit me, you know hit Maxine boy  then he 
it's not even worth having, talking to him  and calls her .
That's a real  right.
Who's is this then?
It's gone man.
I don't know.
I don't know if he'll mess with us anyway.
I know, but it's not worth it man.
Cos if you, you don't know what kind of person, might be completely different man.
Stop it Sinead!
Is that thing going?
Yes.
And the, do we just accept it like that?
You know, cos he's in the family and Max, Maxine, Maxine's gonna get her match you know.
Don't, scratch it.
Shaun did match her that day.
Shaun, that was a match right.
Shaun matched her Dawn.
Look.
Look.
definitely.
Shaun did match her.
Yes!
You can't tell me nuffink.
I ain't up for
Ryan 
she'll say no.
That
Yes.
Yeah , Shaun, yes.
Did he?
Out.
Out!
Dawn.
Oh oh.
Just slap her !
Dawn.
She's bad, you know.
I know but you've got to slap her.
No.
You're trying  say your talking about.
Dawn .
Those !
Those!
No ha, you're not having them, that's Dawn.
She says we're to give you 
I want that, I want that , I want that.
No Dawn you should been here before.
Hold that.
I'd like to meet her meet her match.
No Dawn you should have been there with Shaun, Shaun match her.
Yeah.
Dawn then don't tell me better, cos I know more than you.
Shaun just matched her.
They were saying well Maxine wants to talk to you.
Yeah.
Shaun matched her actually Dawn.
She got thirty nine.
Show Grace your birdie.
What's down there?
Birdie.
Poo ooh, woo ooh ooh!
That smells.
It doesn't.
Poo poo poo.
You're not having it .
Well, should be 
In there.
proud of it boy.
You don't wash, cos she don't wash herself that's why.
Dawn er , Dawn.
Ah.
Is the window still pushed 
Come here boy.
da , down?
They  do your head in .
Let me shave your head boy.
Cover that .
Woo ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh, ooh!
Jason, Jason loved that!
He said the one 
I know.
the geezer loves that!
I said where?
It's alright.
I'm not gonna touch your hair.
Er er
Right don't do it, get down now.
What are you sitting down there for?
Sit there.
Yeah, the social security goes out when you're changing your baby .
When's that then?
Seventh of November.
Can I have
She had a bath or anything?
er your hat?
Anybody in the bathroom?
Take your hat.
one of us here so .
I'm not bathing him, I've got my own child to bath.
Do you wanna hear the joke Dawn?
Hear the joke.
You remember when Ula was in, and she went to work  
When was that?
Dunno.
Remember that?
Remember Dawn?
Oh yeah.
Saturday, yeah.
On the Saturday right.
She phoned, and she goes at  no she goes, she said to mummy that she's gonna drop off some clothes cos they haven't been washed erm  let, one of them lot washing.
I did all the washing Dawn.
Oh!
What you washing them for?
Mummy said to me, mummy said to me that I wash him.
I'm telling you to wash him.
Na no mummy, okay I'm not washing him?
I don't go for that child, he's too big man.
Dawn, you know what she said that I'm  the clothes, I'm gonna have some clean clothes for when then I can wash him.
No.
That's what it is.
That's right.
She, so she run him up yesterday.
I said, do you know what I mean Dawn?
He's dirty.
I'm not washing him.
I don't care.
Ow!
Ow.
Get off him !
Go and tell Nirvanas, Nirvana slap her in her face the other day.
So she can slap him all the time.
He's getting his revenge back.
What d'ya mean revenge?
Well it's just, he's just let her on that.
He's a bother with that boy, alright?
She'll hold fire on that she'll wait till she's in there  and she'll, then she'll sa , then she'll start  alright.
Well she won't, Sinead won't fight him.
I don't know why.
She used to do it before.
Are you gonna copy Sinead?
Did.
I was gonna  and phone everybody back again.
Well we will.
But then he
Tick a, tick a .
I know someone that's gonna be hiding tomorrow night.
Tick a, tick a, daddy daddy, da.
Daddy, daddy, da.
Tick a tick a tick.
Well mummy hasn't got not money.
Neither has anybody else that's
Exactly.
You shouldn't take advantage.
But tha , Maxine said it 
Should leave your sisters then  at the side
I got nothing at the table right.
Er yeah.
.
Tick a tick a, back on my old friend Jack .
Eh?
Liam.
Liam?
Liam.
That's  
Yeah that's my best friend.
No she calls her friend calls her brother.
There you are.
There you go.
It's her brother?
Yeah.
What's Maxine's brother?
Li Li Li , Liam .
Er er 
Liam.
Er Liam 
I ca , what's Martin's baby's name?
What's Martin's baby's name?
Ah?
It's Liam.
What Martin's baby?
What's , what's Stella's, what's Stella's baby's name?
That's the one.
They say they  innit?
Oh that one is, yeah.
It is Liam.

Now presumably you're doing this  er personality analysis, as part of trying to work out who you are and where you're going.
Is that right?
That's right.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well that's fine.
That's what we normally use it for and erm  what I'm going to do if that's okay is I, I'll describe the erm  the actual theory to you
Mm.
and get you to self estimate er where you come on it 
Mm.
you see.
And I've got a little chart that I'll give you to do that on.
Mm.
And then erm we'll have three readings, really, of erm  where you come
Mm.
on the chart.
One of which is this erm estimate that you'll do now.
Mm.
And then you've filled in a works situations
Mm.
questionnaire, and that gives us another reading.
Mm.
And then there's the proper questionnaire and I've scored that up.
Right.
So we get three readings.
Okay?
And then erm we work out erm  a best fit
Right.
er you know so far as we can get that erm and I'll then give you a description of how the theory er predicts your er preferences for behaving in particular ways, would work out.
Mhm.
And you can read that and we can have a  bit of a  discussion about that 
Mhm.
to see if you think it's appropriate and 
Mm.
accurate or not.
Erm and basically er the, the reason for doing it that way is that erm, I don't want to set up a situation where erm I'm some sort of expert and I er  this is not a matching process, okay?
No.
No.
It it's really to give you er whatever insights you can get from this particular theory, erm about the way in which your, your personality works
Right.
so that then you can use that er to make er a better career decision.
Mm.
And indeed actually it's quite interesting anyway for all sorts of
Mm.
er applications.
Erm but the idea is that it should be, very much be something which you erm er you know the, the estimate and so on is, is something which you've contributed to
Yeah.
rather than have imposed on you by somebody else.
Because th the key thing is that you should be more in charge, not that you should be receiving erm some statement from an expert which then determines what happens, you know?
Right.
So it's that sort of process.
Mm.
Does that sound okay?
That's fine.
That's fine.
Good.
Okay.
Well erm I'll give you the er little chart here.
Now erm  oh you've got a pen.
Excellent.
Erm if you, if you, if we just er look at that for a moment.
Mm.
The way it works is that the theory, the theory actually erm er has four dimensions.
Mm.
That's why there are four of those.
And what we'll do is I'll tell you er what each dimension consists of.
And the idea is that that's the midpoint and there's a one to ten scale going each way.
Mm.
And erm you work out whether your preference is very strongly this way or a bit this way or a bit that way.
Mm.
And just put a mark on the line to indicate the strength of the preference.
Does that sound okay?
Mm.
Right.
Well let me explain briefly th th the overall structure of the theory.
All personality theories divide personality up into dimensions.
Mm.
Erm this one has four dimensions.
Sometimes they have about twenty.
Mm.
Erm and the theories differ, in terms of what the dimensions are called, and what it consists of.
And erm this theory has four dimensions, and each dimension consists of two polar opposite types of behaviour.
And the theory is that every individual has an innate inborn preference for behaving at one end or the other.
Mm.
Okay?
Er now it's important to get the idea of what preference means in this context.
It is not an exclusive predisposition.
Mm.
So it doesn't mean to say that you only behave at one end or the other.
Erm in fact life requires everybody to behave at both ends.
Mm.
But the theory is that there's a biologically inherited preference.
Right.
Mm.
Now the ex the analogy which is used, to, to sort of explain this a bit further, is, is with handedness.
Are you right or left handed?
Right handed.
Okay.
So that means, in, in the analogy that your right hand is your preferred hand.
Okay.
Erm have you ever tried to write your name and address with your left hand?
Yes and I was hopeless at it.
Hopeless.
How did you feel while you were trying ?
Er really strange actually.
Mm.
I felt that I was using a part of me that wasn't used to functioning and I've just recently started juggling
Oh really.
Yes.
and er I have a real problem with using my left hand.
Oh interesting.
Because erm the, the erm what usually people say is that erm if you use your non-preferred area in the psychological sense, then it's very hard work because you haven't got the same degree of control as you have in the other 
Mm.
areas.
So to achieve a, a sort of given result you have to work much harder.
Erm and usually it feels very awkward.
Mm.
It doesn't feel comfortable at all.
Erm but if you persist you get better.
Mm.
And you know normally with the handedness, you don't use your left hand unless you break your right wrist or something.
Mm.
But in the psychological area you do have to use it, you know  quite a lot of the time.
Mm.
Erm but you should be able to improve.
Er you know, but none the less there is this preference.
That's the idea really.
Mm.
Okay so that's the idea of preference.
Mm.
Now there are, there's one preference on each of the four dimensions.
Er and that means that there are sixteen different preference combinations y you know that 
Mm.
are possible.
Erm and er the other thing about it is that although we have to look at, in order to discover the preference, we have to look at each dimension as a discrete entity, once you've found the preferences, they actually have a dynamic relationship with each other.
Right.
Yeah.
And the description which I'll give you allows for that.
And also when we, when we've worked out the best fit preference, I'll explain a bit more about how the dynamic relationship 
Mm.
works.
Okay?
Okay.
Right.
So that's, that's the end of the overview.
So shall we start trying to work out what the preferences 
Mm.
are?
Now the first dimension is extrovert and introvert.
Ca 
Yeah.
can you write on this erm extrovert on the left hand end where the dots are and introvert on the other end.
Right.
Now I'm sure you've heard of these terms before.
Mm.
Erm but I think the important thing is that Jung on whom this er particular theory  it's based on his 
Mm.
theories.
Erm he was the person who invented those terms.
And of course he meant something probably rather different from what the popular meaning is.
So it's important to define it really.
This, this dimension is about er where you prefer to focus your attention and where you get your psychological energy from.
Okay?
Oh right.
Yes.
And that's what this dimension's about.
And the erm extroverts are people who prefer to focus outside themselves, on the world of people and things.
The introverts prefer to focus on their own inner world, of hopes, dreams, fears, aspirations, ideas.
Whatever's inside.
Now if I give you an example of a bit of behaviour where  erm a situation  and, and er give you an idea of how introverts and extroverts would behave in that area, that may help you to work out which you think you are.
Say you're with a group of students and erm you're sitting round drinking coffee one morning, and the sun's shining.
And somebody says, let's go to Scarborough for the day.
You know it's a terrific day, let's go to the seaside.
Erm now the extroverts preferred response, to that, is an instantaneous reaction, which they share.
Oh terrific idea.
Yes.
I'll go and get my fishing rod.
Mm.
Or, oh no.
I can't stand the seaside.
Couldn't we go to the North York Moors 
Mm.
instead.
Right so instantaneous .
Now introverted people hate being asked to make instantaneous reactions.
They actually want to think about it.
Whatever it is, they want to think about it.
Erm and then, they may share.
Right.
Or they may not.
Erm now what they say about erm extroverts is that, if you don't know what an extrovert thinks, you haven't listened.
She will have told you.
Er if you don't know what an introvert thinks, it's because you haven't asked her.
Yeah.
Okay so there is a difference in, in, in that way.
Erm and I told you how the extroverts would behave.
Now an extreme introvert, might be er sort of case you know, you're, you're erm er cutting up the sandwiches or whatever preparations you've got to do and so on.
Er and you then, you get to the time when you're all going to get in the car and go off.
And erm the er this particular person just isn't there.
Mm.
Well they've decided they're not gonna go.
They haven't actually told anybody.
Er er and they've just  disappeared .
Mm.
Erm a less introverted erm er response would be, half way through the preparations to say, well you know actually I'm, I don't really think I can come.
I mean I've got this person to see, or this essay 
Mm.
to write, or something to buy in town, or whatever you know
Mm.
They thought it over and they've worked out, and they're not gonna come.
Right.
Now of course these sort of situations do cause a few problems, because, or can do, because erm the extroverts expect everybody to share, you see.
Erm and of course if you had half a dozen students, and two of them were extroverts, and they both wanted to go, and they both said, Yeah.
Terrific idea.
And maybe the other four wouldn't like it at all.
But if 
Mm.
they weren't actually saying anything, then probably the plan would sort of go ahead and, and, and then you might find that you know half of you didn't actually go.
Erm the other thing about extroverts and introverts is that erm, extroverts really like to do their thinking er by er putting out their point of view, and getting everybody else's point of view out, and, and looking at it.
But for introverts, really, thinking is done in here, you know.
And they don't, they're not so keen on, on the sharing really.
Erm I mean does that give you an idea of which
Yeah yeah 
way you go.
Okay.
Yeah.
Sorry, do you wanna stick down.
Right.
Mm.
You were gonna say something.
Is it just, well I was j er I mean I find it hard cos I suppose everybody to some extent, in the, the extent to which they live in their own house,
Mm.
are introverted.
If you see 
Right.
what I mean.
Yeah.
I mean I am just as much as anybody else.
But I think naturally with 
Mm.
the sort of analogy with going to 
Yes.
Scarborough I think I'm much more extrovert.
Okay.
Yeah right.
And I think I will have come out that way on the thing.
Do I put a cross?
Yes.
A cross would do fine.
Right, okay, the next one is sensing and intuition.
Sensing on the left and intuition on the right.
Okay.
Right.
Now this one is about erm how you prefer to take in information, how you prefer to understand things.
It's about perception.
Mm.
Now the sensing person, prefers to use her five senses to perceive what's going on about her.
And prefers to concentrate on present concrete reality.
What she can actually see, touch, smell, hear, taste.
Mm.
If she can't see it, touch it, smell it, hear it, taste it, it doesn't exist.
That's a bit extreme but it gives you the idea.
Now the intuitive person on the other hand prefers to use her sixth sense.
And erm prefers to focus on future possibilities rather on present reality.
Mm.
So it's not erm, what exactly is the nature of this relationship? it's, how might it develop, what might it become?
Or not, exactly what is this thing I've got here and what can I use it for now?
How might it be changed?
What other uses might it have.
Erm intuitive people have inspirations and hunches which they trust whereas sensing people are pretty mistrustful of inspiration.
And they don't like intuitive leaps which intuitive people make.
Sometimes they won't, intuitive people can't actually tell you exactly how they've arrived at this perception, they've just got it.
Er and sensing people find that ex extremely odd
Mm.
and erm really very unsatisfactory.
Mm.
Erm and the sensing people want a step by step logical statement of how somebody has reached erm 
Mm.
you know a particular conclusion.
Erm I once, talking to somebody about this and er he said erm, well he said I think I must be an intuitive because I've never let the facts get in the way of a good idea.
Mm.
Now for er sensing people it's probably the other way round.
Mm.
The ideas have to come from the facts.
Mm.
Do you do you have a
Yeah.
Okay, right.
Fine.
Jolly good.
Next one.
Erm next one is thinking on the left
Mm.
Right.
and no sorry just thinking.
Oh.
and erm feeling on the right.
Feeling?
Yeah feeling.
Now those terms are a bit peculiar.
You always get trouble with them in psychological tests, cos you either  use terms which nobody knows what they mean, or you use terms which people have meanings for and that's not what you actually mean by them.
And feeling doesn't refer to emotion as such.
This dimension is about erm how you prefer to make decisions.
You've perceived something you've now got to decide what you're going to do or whether you're going to do anything.
And the difference between the two is in terms of the material you prefer to work with.
And the er it's all rational, so it's what sort of material do you prefer to exercise your rationality on.
And the thinking people prefer to use impersonal objective material.
Mm.
Whereas the feeling people prefer subjective personal
Mm.
material.
So you've go got a situation where if somebody wants to change something they're actually, you know maybe it's something you do in a job or something like this, and somebody says we, we really ought to change this.
Or it might be something sort of domestic like maybe you go shopping every same day every week or something.
Erm and somebody says well you, you know, you should change that.
Erm then the thinking person's sort of preferred response is to erm seek a tight definition of what the change actually is.
Erm so they'd wanna know well you know if it's a shopping change then erm, do you want me to change the day?
Do you want me to change what I buy, do you want me to change the time I do it?
Do you want me to change the place I go to?
What exactly is it that 
Mm.
you're, you're, you're saying that I've got to do?
Erm and how'll that effect what went on before.
It may be there's some sort of sequence to these, this activity.
Erm and how does it effect what comes after?
So it's a very logical impersonal sort of approach.
Mm.
Okay?
Now the feeling person on the other hand faced with this sort of suggestion would immediately start saying, well erm why are we going to do this?
Er who for whom is it a benefit?
Or who sees meaning in this change?
For whom is it of value?
Is it going to benefit the shop keeper?
Me the, the customer?
Or you, some of the other people maybe on whose behalf I buy things?
Mm.
Or, you know, who, who is going to benefit from it?
And how are the people in it?
So, so really you're looking at the values in it you see 
Mm.
which are essentially subjective and also the people, how are the people who are affected by this, actually going to feel about it?
You know, are they actually going to erm er see it as a positive er step?
Or are they gonna see it as negative and disruptive?
And maybe some people will see one way and some people see it another way.
But er er concentrating on the personal, the subjective.
Mm.
Yeah.
Do you do you get an idea?
Yeah.
Okay stick, stick something down there.
Right.
Good.
And the, now last one is judging, on the left  and perceiving on the right.
And this is really about your erm your lifestyle, your pre preferred lifestyle.
How much planning you actually like to have in your life.
Now the erm judging people want everything to be, well they prefer to have everything cut and dried, sorted out, closed off, decided.
They don't like ambiguity or loose ends.
At all.
The perceiving people on the other hand, want to be flexible, spontaneous, and responsive.
Mm.
So if, if they, if everything's planned out, it's a real straitjacket for them.
And they don't like it.
Yeah.
Erm now if you think of organizing a party, is quite a useful example of this.
Now judging people don't like loose ends, and get worried if things are not being organized.
Okay.
So usually they do the organizing.
Er the perceiving people don't, it doesn't worry them very much, they'll do it all at the last minute and get it sorted out somehow.
Erm so if you've got a judging person and they're having a party, then they will, they will organize it a fortnight in advance.
And they will erm work out the guest list in a balanced way, according to whatever they want to happen.
And erm er they will s think about whether they've got enough, be enough room for the number of people.
Whether they've got enough chairs.
Where the drink's coming from, how much it's gonna be.
Same thing for the food.
If there are gonna be any activities then if you got a really extreme judging person, on the day, there'll be, you know, sharpened pencils, and sheets of paper, and rules for whatever games are going to be paid.
Now the perceiving person on the other hand, would erm say, about midday, well I think I'll have a party tonight shall we?
Erm, how are you gonna get everybody there?
Well we'll see whose around, and tell them, and they can invite a few of their friends, and we'll see how it goes.
What about the drink?
Oh tell everybody to bring a bottle.
Er what are we actually gonna do?
Well we'll see.
I mean when people come, see who knows any good games, and they can organize them.
You know.
Er so it's all, all frightfully open-ended, and flexible and so on and 
Mm.
quite different.
And, and, and the judging person invests a lot of effort in the actual organization.
And they get actually pretty upset if only half the people come.
Because you know, there's all this stuff ready and so on.
Or if twice as many people come, they get upset too, because they haven't got enough.
Whereas the perceiving person is much mm less phased by this and says, oh well there are lots of people, that's nice.
I don't know half of these people.
I've lots of new people I can meet.
Or erm if only half the people come, well that's fine we can have a much more sort of intimate evening, and erm actually there'll be lots of food  for everybody won't there?
You know.
Mm.
So they're much more, more flexible about 
Yeah.
things.
And, and, the judging people, their ideal event is one which goes exactly to plan.
Whereas for the perceiving people, that's probably pretty boring.
Mm.
Okay?
Yeah.
I can work
Oh pretty, pretty far down that 
track.
Okay.
Right.
Let's have a look.
Erm now you get erm a letter for each of the preferences.
That's the way erm they do it.
And you can't have I.
It's usually the, the first letter but
Mm.
you can't have I, because I for introvert 
Mm.
so it's N for intuitive.
N, P for perceive.
Right.
Now we'll have a look at the erm the work situations one.
You may remember, you, you can see what's going on now.
That's extrovert, sensing, thinking and judging,
Yes.
and so on you see.
An and I simply add the ticks and see which comes out.
Yeah.
And it comes out the same.
Yeah.
So that's fairly straightforward.
Erm this is not very accurate.
Mm.
And it's not a fine discriminator.
Erm but in fact certainly those three you've got a very clear you know 
Mm.
sort of six difference is not much on the other side  
Mm.
anything on that .
Now this one is a bit closer.
Mm.
Erm but it's still, still reasonably clear and then we've got this which is erm it's all er constructed so that there's a weighted score 
Mm.
you see so you actually get that.
Er and that's the same again so we haven't got any problems I don't think about the fit.
That's from the questionnaire?
Yes it is.
Mm.
And in fact it's interesting that the erm the extrovert is actually quite high
Mm.
on that.
Peop people say that, in fact all your scores are quite high while P is the, actually that's rather, rather 
That's yeah 
different from that isn't it?
And those are the same 
Well I think it  yeah because when I was filling in th 
Yeah.
I, I mean there were a lot of questions like you know does 
the idea of making 
Yeah.
a list for things  
Oh yes.
appeal to you.
Those sorts of questions.
And it doesn't appeal to me but I know that I should do it.
And I, I know that I'm forced to do it.
An and s s so sometimes I think my sense of obligation
Yes ah.
carries me so.
But whereas when you were talking about it then I mean when I think about it
It's quite obvious that's what you're most comfortable doing.
I resist it.
But yeah.
Yes.
Well you see what happens is that, erm you, you may have a preference but you learn that you've got to use this other behaviour 
Mm.
Yeah.
an and so you do.
Yeah.
You know.
But that doesn't alter th the fact that your preference is the other way.
Yeah.
And in fact it's quite interesting sort of analysis this because erm I, I actually think that the erm the best er  well it helps you if you know where your preference is, because if, if then you're behaving in the other area then you know that that's not re your preference
Mm.
and therefore if it's a bit difficult.
Well you know it's a bit difficult and you know why it's difficult 
Mm.
but you can do it because you know you can go back home as it were in to the other area.
Whereas if you think well you know this is, I'm doing this but I don't know whether this is me and I don't feel very comfortable with it and all that 
Mm.
it, it's actually much more difficult to do it.
Mm.
Erm so in a way knowing your preference, doesn't mean that you can't do this.
Mm.
Or that you don't.
Er and perhaps er you know you can have a role where maybe you've gotta make decisions and alright you do it.
You know.
Erm but it makes it easier in some 
Mm.
ways.
Erm and, and it sort of explains to you what's happening.
Mm.
Which, which can be quite, quite useful.
Yeah.
Erm.
Okay.
So I'll give you the, the, the description.
Erm.
Is that quite a high score there?
I mean  
Oh yes.
some of them are quite 
definitely in one.
Well the thing is, the interesting thing about this is of course is what we're actually dealing with is not erm  well in a sense er not, not erm your actual preference, which according to the erm theory is unchangeable.
You 
Mm.
know it's, it's sort of in you.
Sort of genetically inherited.
Erm but whether it actually erm is realized in practical behaviour 
Mm.
is another matter.
Just like the sort of nature nurture argument
Mm.
in biology.
You know you might have a gene which says well you'll grow to be six foot, but if you're not fed properly 
Yeah.
then it won't happen.
Mm.
So and it's the same thing with the preferences.
Mm.
So in fact a high score is, is quite good because it means that you recognize what your preferences actually are.
Mm.
You know.
So it doesn't mean, you know, a higher score on perceiving doesn't mean that you er necessarily very seldom er exhibit judging behaviour.
You might exhibit quite a lot of judging behaviour, but it feels peculiar to you an and you know it's an effort.
And so you're quite clear that your, your preference is perceiving.
Mm.
It doesn't actually mean necessarily erm how you behave.
Mm.
If you see what I mean.
Cos Jung had this idea that the whole  the whole of life was a journey towards the discovery of what he called the real self.
Mm.
Now that's a bit of an elusive concept really but none the less I think people have er a sort of idea that there is a real them
Mm.
somewhere, and that this probably gets pulled about
Mm.
by relationships, by external events, by roles which they take on.
And erm therefore it's quite a real thing to a lot of people.
And what the, this preference thing is after, is describing the real self.
Mm.
There's also er I mean I think there are, well there are probably lots of selves but, but erm er there's the real self.
The sort of inner self if you like erm although that's expressed in, in behaviour quite often.
And then there is how you behave, which may not be the same thing as the real self.
And then there's an idealized self.
The sort of 
Mm.
person you might like to be but actually unfortunately aren't.
You know.
Mm.
And  the real self's probably somewhere between the behaving self and the idealized
Mm.
self, you know.
Erm well let me find this, fish this out for you and er you can er have a look at this and see what you think.
Okay.
Thanks.
Read that and see whether you think it's er accurate or which bits of it click and which bits of it don't.
Mm.
Most, most of it's true.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well let me explain the erm  oh that's, that's a description on the back.
Can I have that back for a minute and I'll just explain one of the erm  a bit more of the structure of it.
E N F P.
Now the, the theory erm is that there are four mental functions in the middle here.
And the extrovert and introvert, and judging and perceiving are sort of orientations.
So if you imagine that erm you're a motor vehicle alright?
And the E I and the J and the P are if you like sort of part of the bodywork which decides whether you're a sports car or a heavy goods 
Mm.
vehicle or whatever.
But the engine that actually drives you
Mm.
is these four mental faculties okay?
Erm or mental functions.
Now one of these is dominant okay?
And that's, in your case, that's that one.
And then the other one you then have an auxiliary or second one.
And those are the two preferences 
Mm.
okay?
And then the other two erm, less preferred areas, erm the least preferred is opposite the erm number one, the most preferred, and the third one is opposite the second one.
Now thi this has some implications for decision making.
Mm.
If, if you actually,an and a career decision is one type of decision.
Erm if, if you want a good decision you've gotta use all four mental functions.
Mm.
But the preference theory suggests that erm you will use them in order of preference.
So er if you've got a er a problem, say the career, what are you going to do with yourself?
Well the first thing you do is start thinking of lots of possibilities you see.
And erm you get all these possibilities erm set out, and then you use your feeling judgement to er cut them down.
Mm.
Er you say, well you know alright there are all these things I could do but erm er what, where do I think I re really want to work?
I mean where would it be worthwhile for me to work?
You know.
What do I  what is so important to me that I want to spend all this time on it?
You know, how does this fit with my value system?
So you'd use 
Mm.
your value system to actually erm fine down the number of possibilities.
Now the danger is for N F people that they don't use the S and the T.
And according to the theory you would then, after you'd used the N and the F you'd then start to use the T which is the sort of logical thing.
You'd say well what am I trained to do?
What sort of background have I got?
What skills have I got?
Do I need training to do this?
Mm.
And then the S, the senses, the last
erm is really about erm well are there any jobs in this?
An and do people actually get paid to do it?
And what sort of activities do they actually engage in?
Mm.
What is the nature of the experience of somebody who actually does this?
Mm.
And if N Fs are not careful, they've got this terrific sort of value laden possibilities idea 
Mm.
which is a bit vague and erm you know er an and they never get to well what are the skills?
And where are the jobs?
And, and what actually do you do day to day?
I mean it may, may fit your values and it may have lots of possibilities but what are actually gonna be doing and will you actually be capable of it or, or enjoy it or whatever.
So you need all four an and it's not a criticism to start with the N and the F.
That's how you are and that's how you have to start.
I mean it's no good you starting on the S and the T.
You'd get bored with it before you'd, you know,so but you need to bring the others in.
Mm.
That's, that's the thing.
Mm.
So erm you know that's th what I'm really talking about is more a question of the process of erm career choice, than it is saying what you should do.
Mm.
Erm the there is something which I suppose can be said about what you should do, if you're an N F and a, and a,an a dominant intuitive.
By the way this tells you what your, you see your dominant is intuition and then with feeling .
Mm.
Erm now er if intuition is the dominant thing and you're an extrovert, then you erm really need situations er where you can change things.
Where you can actually erm make things change.
Mm.
Erm and if you're a er an intuitive feeling person, then really it's crucial that your value system is accommodated in what you do.
Mm.
You know that makes a huge difference really.
Mm.
Erm so that's very important.
Erm hmm yeah, yeah.
Well that's about it I think.
Erm what are you actually thinking about doing anyway?
Erm or haven't you got that far yet?
Well I think I've got a bit stuck on the N and the F actually .
I see.
So we want some S and T .
We do yeah.
No  well I've just had erm an  interview and erm  really just exploring the things that I myself thought of trying
Yeah.
Probably erm I think I'll, I'll do  on the 
Oh yeah.
Yeah mm mm.
And do that for a while as well as some, some voluntary work.
That  what I was thinking of doing for next year.
It's really, I mean next year I was sort of quite co I'm quite committed to not having a year off so much as just exploring things and that's what
Right.
what erm Heather?
Yes Heather  yeah.
Yes that's what she said.
She said you jus 
Mm.
cos I haven't, like she perceived that I was very kind of  lost really.
And you know didn't know enough about the different areas of work that I was interested in.
And she said oh the best thing to do is just sort of travel for a bit an 
Mm.
not travel aimlessly, but travel with a purpose.
Mm.
An and find out as much as possible an and then erm try and get on to something for the year after.
For nineteen ninety .
Yes well you'll need to do some S and T you see, erm before you go off on your travels.
That's it .
Other otherwise you really won't know what you're coming back to so.
Well exactly.
No I couldn't face that I don't think.
I've got to do something.
Right.
Well that's what I'm, I'm doing here and
Yes.
Trying to work, work 
Yeah.
things out.
Yes.
Cos it, it's true that I resist it.
You know I mean I didn't want to come today.
I resist 
No no.
the sort of process.
Yes, yes.
You know I just think that I should be able to get a job just like that and 
Yes yes.
Well of course erm sometimes you can.
But, but it is, it is dangerous because of course maybe it doesn't work.
Erm and especially 
in the current climate you see it's also erm interesting because of course this, this, this sort of theory depends who's interviewing you.
I i if, if, if they're erm an intuitive feeling person, then they may think that's okay.
Er but if they're a sensing thinking person they will find it almost totally incomprehensible, that you've been so lax as not to have actually worked out in detail erm you know what their job is?
And erm why you want it?
And why you, why it fits?
You know why they should employ you given you know what are your skills 
Yeah.
and what are your this and what are your that.
An and really even the N F recruiters will er want some of that.
Well I think for them to be in, in management, top management positions a lot of them they'd have to be pretty sensing and thinking before  well I do I mean I think there's 
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
room for my sort of personality in most careers, but to some extent it's got to be you know balanced and 
Yes you've, you've got to do the lot you see.
So, so you need to get
on to the S T bit.
I mean have you done the erm any of these other things?
I mean you've done the personality thing.
Er if you've seen, have you seen this wherever it is.
Erm oh it's over there.
The erm planning your future thing or not?
No, no, no.
Well it doesn't matter anyway.
Erm.
This thing?
Oh yes.
I've got that.
You've got that?
Mm.
You've got that, you've got that.
Right, you've got that.
Yeah.
Now I'm, I am trying to work through it methodically actually.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
Well erm
This has been quite helpful though.
I do feel that
Cos what you've done then is that.
Mm.
I've done the, I'm just in the middle of the skills one.
Oh are you?
Yes oh jolly good.
Yes.
Yes.
That's quite interesting.
Well it is because that actually does, with the pie chart, lead you into sort of chunks of work area
Mm.
which you know then you can explore a bit.
What comes across in both my interests and any skills which isn't really reconcilable with this I don't think is that erm I've got sort of, because of , I think it's cos of my academic experience cos I did an arts degree with a lot of research and stuff, is that I, I like researching, data collecting, processing information.
Which isn't really I mean I don't think  
Not an N Fs thing.
Not really no.
No it isn't.
Erm well you have to sort of decide I suppose erm  which way you wanna go.
Mm.
You know.
Although you see erm as we've been suggesting any project requires that.
You know you, you, you need to be doing some of that.
It, it's just a question of I suppose whether you do it or you get other people to  do it or  or what.
You know but, but probably to start with whatever you're gonna have to do you're gonna have to do.
And I think the S and T thing is, is erm it's very good to have developed skills in those areas.
Wher it's a question of where you sort of harness them really though isn't it?
Well it's erm I mean Helen suggested
Mm.
librarianship an and it was 
Mm.
something which, that interested me but I do think I'll find it boring or something.
Yes well no this wouldn't necessarily 
support that.
Erm it, it would depend I suppose erm well the N F people they want to be able to change things you see.
You can't change things much in a library.
No.
Erm er if they're, if they're introverts, then it's alright changing things just by changing people's perception.
So erm you know you, you, you  I mean I'm I N F J and so it's alright for me to think I've changed your thinking.
Whether you actually do anything about it is up to you you know 
Mm.
so I, I mean I suppose in a sense it would be good if you did actually change something but that's not entirely necessary for me.
If, if, if it's given you a slightly different slant on it, and you're thinking has changed.
In some way.
Then that's okay for me.
Now if I was an extrovert, it wouldn't actually be enough.
I, I, I would want actually to see real results you see from erm the change.
That you had actually shifted from this to that, and you went off and did whatever it was.
Mm.
You know.
I th I think you probably need a bit more er in terms of, of, of, of results.
Erm although you see you could get that in librarianship.
If erm you, you might erm in time er er you know become er the, the librarian or something.
Well then you're, you're managing the thing, and you're actually responsible for trying to work out which way it's going.
Mm.
You see.
So in a sense that might come later on.
So you might find that er a and in, in some ways it's rather interesting, because your S and T skills might get you the job.
In a sense, you know, you wouldn't get it without them.
Erm but what's needed for later on, might be the N and the F.
Because erm you know you can't manage people without some consideration for er for their, their views and how things affect them and so on.
Erm and you need to look at the big picture.
Mm.
Yeah it's no good getting bogged down in the detail.
So I suppose whatever area you went into, erm you might find it a bit frustrating to start with, because you weren't looking at the big picture.
Well I think that, that my problem is, you know like,Cos I did do the P G C S  
Oh of course you did.
You came and talked to me 
Yeah.
about it then didn't you once?
And that was my problem with it was that I was in much  in terms of being able to go into the classroom an and talk to the kids and have a really good relationship with the teachers and things.
And I discovered that 
And it didn't work out.
to actually create the right learning environment for them, there were a thousand little details that I had to attend to, like had I planned my lesson right, was I progressing in the right way round the classroom, had I remembered to chase up certain people's homework, and stuff.
And that I find incredibly difficult.
You know it was a real effort for me to remember all those things.
Because I am so kind of, you know I've got ideas coming in and out of my head all the time.
But you know  I still think that I'm drawn towards that sort of teaching, performing that kind of role erm and that wouldn't be fulfilled by librarianship at all.
No.
But I don't think it would do me any harm to develop some more organizational skills because mos most jobs require them.
Yes.
You know I don't think you can get by without them really.
You know I mean you have to have time management skills to have a reasonably
Well you do don't you?
Yes  
successful life, don't you?
I mean it's no use being  
Yes, that's right, that's right.
I mean  as I said when I was filling in the questionnaire I was thinking well this, really this is my preference and you know I'd much rather be in a job that allowed me some flexibility.
You know rather than down to the line planning for every single moment of the day.
But having said that I can't see a job where you can just kind of swan in and you know and think about a million different things in one day or whatever.
So you know I mean I su I suppose a lo the questionnaire seemed to concentrate very much on how you were outside work.
And I mean I su everyone has to resign themselves I think to some extent but the fact that  they are playing a role within their work situation.
Right.
And they can't allow their personality free expression .
I mean that's what another thing I found very hard about teaching.
And the teachers commented on it.
They said that I was too much of myself.
You know I had to assume this more detached role.
From the kids.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well it, it, teaching has a lot of er er problems with that really because it's, it's, it's playing a role.
I mean it's acting, teaching more or less.
Yeah.
And you know and you, you, you got to have, gotta get, you know, you have to get cross with them if they misbehave or whatever because otherwise there isn't any order in the place.
Mm.
An an and you know those sorts of things have to go on.
Erm I'm just trying to think what other sorts of jobs you might be interested in.
I think anything with writing.
I mean that's come up again and again.
Journalism and that kind of thing.
Yes.
Yeah yeah.
But there's a lot of S T in journalism isn't there?
Quite a lot of S.
You've gotta do your, you know, go out and sit in the county court and wait for something exciting to happen  
Well especially again when you're, when you're training.
Well that's the thing you see I think you're, you're, you know  that's gonna be the problem  that you're, you're

Is that your new personal stereo?
No, I'll explain it to you later.
I'm just actually practising.
What is it?
What?
Let's see you.
I cannae put it up .
No.
Oh were up at the  Safeway?
I'll explain it to you later..
Well er 
No I've been picked out by the British Market Research Bureau to
What?
do a survey?
Have you?
Aha.
What's that, to do with the work?
No, the woman called at the door not long ago.
She's just, not long away.
A 
Well what d'ya mean survey?
Eh?
Do you get paid for it.
No you get a  a token  twenty five pound voucher at the  end of the survey  from Marks and Spencers.
And th do you have to ask people questions?
No.
No.
No?
Just tape normal conversations  which  we're doing that er now.
Switch that off.
Aye.
What did ya do at school?
Erm  had my assembly today.
Did you?
Aha.
What about you Karen?
Di I did my assembly today.
Do you want to hear this?
If you can guess it?
What?
Right.
. Don't tell.
Up the brae, and o'er the top and doon the, eh er, up the brae and o'er the top  and doon again and up the brae and o'er the top and doon I drop and that the day and there I stop .
Ooh!
Never heard that before.
That's the letter N.
But it's supposed to be an M, but it's a letter K.
Oh!
It's, up the way and that.
Aha.
And one of us did Tam-O'Shanter something like that.
Oh you did Tam-O'Shanter?
I see.
You had to sing Oh Flower of Scotland.
Mhm.
Well it was .
Derek  he's huge right!
He  like come up to here!
Yeah.
Erm  erm Laura seen his boxer shorts.
No I never!
You did.
Scott was looking at her and so was Kay.
He had his legs wide open !
So what kind of 
That's right.
day did you have at work then?
Well
you know I can't talk with these things.
Oh!
We have a shy wife.
Just the same as when you're on video camera.
I had a rubbish day.
A rubbish day was it?
I had this awful sore head.
Aha.
And a sore head all day today.
Oh er  so that was the  's day was it?
Aha.
Oh.
Then I went to the bank  saw your wages.
Had a heart attack.
Aha.
That was her.
Oh aye.
Oh aye, cos you're saving that for Mary?
No, I'm keeping it myself.
I gave her copies.
But that's the one she asked for weren't it?
Mhm.
Ah it's a nice photograph innit?
So I'll  it out.
She wants three copies of that.
One for her, one for the two grans.
Aha.
So that's my own.
Cos I says to Margaret well how much 
do I owe you then?
She says, och!
Nothing.
She says, I said I'd get it for you, and she says if you ask me
Aha.
she says I get it done for you.
Oh that's nice, eh?
Lovely!
Aha.
I says, och Margaret how much do you want?
Cos I was just gonna pay for this then.
She says nothing, never mind.
Oh oh.
So I thought it was, I'm really pleased with it.
Aye.
I thought it was nice.
It's the best photo we've got of them two.
But I said, it is, yeah, that's what I saying i Mary was so delighted because I took it and let her see it.
Aye.
Ah!
She says, that is lovely!
She says, am I getting it?
I says, aye, I'll give you a copy of it.
I says, I'll get the negatives.
Aye.
Just put it into .
She says well get me three copies of it.
She's got frames up in the house that'll probably, will fit it.
Mhm.
So,And did you see that?
Aye.
The Weatherseal windows?
Mm.
The guy's coming.
Yeah, I'll get in touch .
I'll give him a week.
If he hasn't been in touch by phone in a week, I'll phone him.
Aye.
Because I was telling Mary  to see what she says  don't tell them she says, that your    she says, don't tell them that your windows are steamed up, she says, before you get the double glazing in.
Just tell them that's  double glazing in.
Mhm.
Just get rid of the condensation for  .
What do you want to watch?
Have you seen
I've seen all the ones before.
Eh?
I've seen all the ones before.
on Wednesday night.
Taggart's on.
Taggart's at nine o'clock, I want to see that.
But there must be something in the  in the cabinet for you to watch.
Just have a 
I want 
look and see.
Oh God !
I thought you were going straight up to see if the  actually, I was going to get up early and 
Well, what I did 
and hoover them up, you know.
was  I gave my mum a lift because I, and d'ya know by the time he gets better
What?
because there quinine in it.
Oh aye, that ?
No.
No, it's not   it's your, quinine is used for people  like diarrhoea pe and people that have to take attacks and that, you know, how my mum takes ?
Aye.
And she says quinine tablets.
There was quinine and , and that's all there was, why you haven't 
had a .
Oh right.
So, it's very difficult get, cos my boss wouldn't find it again, so she asked er, the women  and she said 
has she had any?
She says no, we don't have any of that this time.
And she said, I tried to get that  father- in-law there, she says, and I tried to get that for my daughter and I couldn't find, couldn't get it.
She said, no.
And she said, I find it's hard to get quinine in it,for diarrhoea.
And er  Steven  he does the erm, the   he just has to take his quinine tablets.
Ah.
Right.
So
It is.
And Carole has to take the others, I think there's another ten in there.
Oh I'll definitely meet her.
If that's what it's all about well we just won't bother, you know.
But she managed to get me Diet Coke.
Er  I mean, it's not that bad but she's .
Aha.
Is that thing still running?
Aye.
Yes.
Mum.
Mum.
Want to hoover in here?
Yeah.
Er, just put these things on.
Aye .
Some of the, there's your .
Yes.
But I'm not buying a programme   at half past four.
What one?
Er the  the  the tape on one.
What one's that again?
Er the one with the houses  half past three.
Yeah.
Oh dear.
Oh .
No, not if she's got it.
Such a chore of us putting messages back.
Yeah, but then I'm glad you've got one.
Eh?
Not if it does .
What till  the weekend?
I don't know.
Er
Well I dunno.
Well you get bananas and apples and all did you?
Yep.
As you know I'm trying to diet.
Aye.
I know what you mean.
And rather than sit and eat chocolate  I can eat  apples and fruit.
Ah, don't eat all the apples there.
No.
My mum gave me  got loads of them as well, I'll eat the ones my mum gave me.
Well how can you go on a diet when you buying all this chocolate?
Well I got that, I got that for the wee ones.
Oh.
So do you leave it switched on even when nobody's talking?
Ah well  I, you can actually switch it on and off I suppose, but
But do you walk about with it attached to you?
Aye.
I'll have it in one of my pocket, pocket at work, you know, and the microphone 
Are you gonna tell them or are you just gonna
No, I'll tell them first, you know that I'm taking part in a survey, you know?
Oh aye.
And er
because there's maybe some people don't want their conversation taped.
No i well I can erase it, you know, if they object 
Mm mm.
to it, right enough, you know but  hopef 
And how how long 
hopefully 
does it last for?
Well each side's forty five minutes.
I know, but when she's coming back to collect it?
Oh!
Er er  a week tomorrow.
Half past four.
I said yeah that's fine cos we'll er  I'll be up and ready then I'll can go and  get my dinner and go to my mother's, you know?
Aye.
And, cos you're always back early on a Friday.
Aye.
So   see how it goes.
Hopefully
Did you wonder what it was?
I did actually, aye.
Ah, when you were walking about and said I'm trying this out I thought it was erm  I thought our  exercise bike had come.
Oh aye.
Yeah .
By the way, to anybody that's listening to this, I'm not really huge but I put on five pounds since I stopped smoking.
You were very good.
Just in ca Just in case 
You're getting brave.
just in case there's anything, och, I don't want a stranger to think that I'm built like an elephant!
Ooh!
You're still the slim chick I knew  in nineteen seventy four.
I don't like  though.
Oh oh .
What?
And you got your Rangers shellsuit  on, eh?
See that, Laura, put that in the freezer.
Yous allowed to wear at school?
No.
No they're not.
Are you?
Well they're not allowed to wear it at St Bosworths.
On you go.
I
No.
got a 
Eh?
Doing chips?
Aye.
They had some chaps wearing it .
I know, but he doesn't want you to wear Rangers football things, or Celtic football things  er  just like a tracksuit  says that.
I haven't got those.
Eh?
And those.
Want bolognese?
Right.
It's still on the top..
Well, I saw her 
yesterday  and that was
Ah.
Wait and see later.
Sure.
Where do these  beans go?
Erm  it's, the bottom one I think.
Oh!
Can have that for a wee 
That.
change, you know that .
So did you get any of this in here?
Aye.
It was tight.
Right.
But is Karen watching it?
No, she's watching Neighbours.
Oh.
Do you know what it is?
You could  anything else.
See those sausages
Yeah.
put them up in that middle one.
Right.
Can I erm 
With all these erm, casseroles and things.
Where's the  Oh!
Are these
Aren't they nice?
Eh?
You can eat this and then .
What do they go in?
The oven?
Er no, you fry them.
What are they like?
Can I get some for my ?
What tonight?
Mm.
If you want.
It's, well I'll just leave them out.
Yeah, I'll leave some out.
But don't leave them all out.
Here.
Gary.
How many will you eat?
As many as you, you want for me.
Two.
Two!
Well I'm not putting the frying pan on just for two.
No, two more.
Oh.
Two more.
Eh?
Two more.
Two.
I'll do  you don't know if Karen, go and ask Karen if she wants one.
Will you put this, nearly put it
What is it?
Yeah.
Same?
I just got , yeah.
Turn that off.
Well that's nice of her to ask is it?
What?
She's  for this house.
I don't want them.
Right.
I didn't think you want more.
I'm gonna put the frying pan on, do you want an egg or something?
Aha.
Fried egg.
In a roll?
Turn it over, aha.
Cos I don't want the yolk raw.
What age are you Karen, eight?
Eight?
Aha.
Aye.
You have to fill in this book.
Mm mm.
Will I have to put your age down?
Twenty three?
, I'm not one of these people that doesn't like my age now.
Twenty nine and a half.
Er   well  Mark   remember I was telling you about the boss  that  the two there the other night  they give er a, a wage rise
Aha.
and Mark   remember on Monday the  they got a mix up on that letter for  the management, right?
Aha.
Well  Mark  held er a meeting based on that document that was sent down  so, they had to cancel it because it was around er  thing they were voting on you see?
Mhm.
So, I phoned up Joe, and Joe says all the results weren't in because that's the kind of ordeal next week  er  er next Friday, tomorrow.
So  er er  for eight weeks.
The drivers definitely, well they're voting today, you see, well  have already accepted that, right?
So the drivers they vote today.
And then we'll need to wait and see how they go, but   Joe says, he says, well we've done this.
He said if we er, knock this back he said, and I don't know what we're gonna, they said they're gonna we do it in a month.
You see, but then  strike action.
He says, so what they do they do?
Are they just gonna strike, er strike?
He said everybody else is gonna accept that.
I said, Joe, I don't know.
And gotta, do  do you think that they were gonna accept it?
Well the factory's already voted against that.
with the fact that they've accepted it, possibly accepted, so we're only  with it.
I mean they've got the least  amount of people that are there are so we'll  either that or the end of the day see if it doesn't get banned, right?
Well, also, we'll need to have  meeting during the week.
And as Joe was saying, he said, all we do is  just go back to them and just try and say well look  you know  when you come to see us again do you  want to accept this  or regret it on the basis that you're going to strike, but all the other section in the company's accepted that.
Yeah.
You know, I mean, that's the realization of the whole thing.
And what do you think?
D'ya think
Well I mean, I told them at the time I was against the  of a sixteen month deal.
Mhm.
You know, that does nay impress me a lot.
Mm mm.
Quite happy about the seven percent.
I know.
But the deal
And is it still 
I mean 
a sixteen month deal?
It's still sixteen, Joe  Joe said he did nay reckon he's going to get the management to shift  back to October
Aha.
to the anni the old anniversary day
Aha.
for one section.
You know?
So, maybe in the light of that they'll  have to attempt put it back to them again.
They'll accept that, I dunno.
Th they're voting today.
Right.
That one there.
Karen, you haven't eaten all of them.
Okay!
See?
What's this?
Er, Neighbours.
Neighbours.
Oh aye.
Aha .
What is it you wanted to do?
Eh?
I'd hate to be the person who has to sit and sit through all of that.
Ah, well I guess there would be thousands of them.
So they had that from there on Friday night did they not?
Ah, well I was explaining that to er  the woman that cleans, you know that  she told us we can wash ourself, you know.
And er  and I think with Maggie and Eric, you know, er  Maggie's perception of a Scottish  , you know.
Should get you and Mary on it, sing a rotten .
No, well you cannae include  different conversations cos it's only your voice that's coming through, you know.
Ah.
You cannae get a perception of, hear about you're saying to the another person, you know?
And I think accents, you know?
Regional accents.
So  oh it's interesting in work.
Oh aye.
It will be interesting in work.
Well I take you're not getting your ?
Take it up to the shop and get Leigh on it.
Aye.
A see whether you can understand her.
Leigh, Leigh's nay accent, she just talks at two hundred mile and hour.
What has she got there?
That's what I was about to say, is that 
Nay books.
I mean I tried, tried to  er er  done it in my  book about my  again and I read about two pages and I fell asleep.
I got up at quarter to twelve  I was starving  so I had a  er er
Soup.
bit of mushroom soup, you know, and er  I just sa thought, there's nay use, I said I'm gonna go back to bed.
Er  plumped myself up and all comfy  started reading my book and I fell asleep.
Yeah.
Och aye .
Why don't you try and do that one with your own .
Aye.
It's quite interesting in different conversations.
I will do that.
Well I'm hoping that, that tape I've been using when I go to Ian and Shaun's, that er  the noise of Rangers does nay  it ma goes too loud, you know.
I know.
Same, same as that.
What?
That's a wee .
I don't 
Remember 
think you can keep it running like that and see, aye, oh aye 
Remember it running at 
I think she was just, she was wanting a fortnight away.
No.
Well I just need to try and spread everything out and hope nobody goes there.
Well I think
Because  the car's due this week and er  these two endowment policies so there's not enough money in to cover them, so 
No.
and then we'll have to cancel out the garage, so  don't know how much that's gonna be.
I hope it isn't, that could be embarrassing.
Just what Elaine said
Aye.
her mum's  everybody else does it.
You're not as bad as dad, the  's are gonna phone again.
And what they want him for?
Stop  for David .
I mean that was  last March  no, April was it?
April or May?
Well, it's .
I'm not like that.
They can still book can't they?
They could take ours and against them.
Well I don't know.
Maybe, they're not wanting it.
But they said that that was for us and we said the garages, it's sort of run down now and  no use in trying to build it up again.
Aye, no, I'm not saying that.
I'm saying  squaring it off financially.
No.
But at the end of the day, I mean, he's sure gonna turn round and do it to us.
No.
But you have to.
No.
Fruit Machine.
Might try the fruit machine.
I want it on.
Right.
Well you'll soon be computer whizz kids eh?
Yeah .
Mm.
We're off then.
And when do you go to Saint Boswell's?
February.
Ah well  the what?
Twenty fourth.
Oh that's about 
And 
there?
Aye.
Oh aye  done our time.
Aye, well I said to the woman  that, I could, I, er actually it's a photocopy, you know that old
Mm.
I hand them around  just letting people know what I'm doing you know.
And er
Where d'ya get the headphones for?
Well that's for me to listening back  if I've, if somebody objects to, you know 
Aye.
Aye.
I can then  put the headphones on, listen back to it and then erase their conversation, you know?
Well I apologize to the listener of this tape cos it is nay very brilliant.
Aye .
Le I let you take my dinner in peace that's why we did nay  record our dinner.
talking to, but it's not as if it's a video camera.
Aye.
Well that's my, just my video experience coming out innit?
Hello!
Hello!
I'm out ee, interview you.
Interview me?
Is that on?
Is that on?
Aye.
What, er where d'ya get it?
Well, I've been
Is it yours?
No, no, no, no.
I'll explain to you in a minute.
You could take part in a research project here
Who fo who?
For a British Market Research Bureau.
Okay.
A study into the English language and how it's 
Oh!
Oh!
spoken in the nineties.
The nineties?
Aha.
Oh!
It's
Hi ma!
Mm mm mm.
a bit, bit too much of the bloody Yank!
Who?
Us.
Well I mean we're, we're taking a load of the a Yankee words and no sound properly.
Na well it's that 
Is it?
Ah!
No I had a  a chap at the door at half past four this afternoon  and it was this woman for the British Market Research Bureau  er
You shouldn't let her in.
Know nothing about her.
Ah she does,aye, aye  no, and she says  you know, answer a few questions and all that, would I like to take part in a sur survey of how the English language is getting used?
You know, and
Mm mm.
what words, regional accents and things, you know to u kind of update  you know, the dictionary sort of style.
Mhm.
Oh yeah, but  we well she's gonna change it, d'ya know when you update it you know they bring it back down with all the different words   that, that's being  to the  the, the, the, the dialect, not the dialect, the  the vocabulary they, they've, they've got in America.
I mean, they, they spell a lot of words  quite different to the others.
Oh aye, aye.
Aye, but  you know  like you se she mentioned one in particular, like
What?
the word skeilth
Skeilth?
Mm.
Aha.
Aye, yeah, yeah, take skeilth.
That's a sponger.
It's a sponger.
She can't put you down .
Aye.
But we know how words like that crop up.
But, yeah but, ah but that's an old Scottish  but, not that's a Scottish word.
Will we get that in the dictionary?
But I don't think they would because that's er 
er, yeah in the Scottish dictionary.
Aye?
Well I, I know .
What?
Well, I love the word!
It's, it's quite a funny word when you, when you're sitting and look at it .
S K E I L  Ya.
.
Your
Really.
I know, but when she was saying apparently th like the research was that  er  people who leave Scotland and go down to, you know the south of England and all that, their words begin to crop up down there.
Mhm.
You know.
So they may, may be able to get used then  and ra maybe warrant an entry into the dictionary.
Well that's what I'm talking 
You know.
about, yeah.
You, a few ma Americans  that's how the da the la English language started off.
And you've got a lot of words in, in, in  er  er, er a lot of Latin words, and French words all in your, all in your dictionary now.
That's right.
Mhm.
Look where it got  
And did she do a tape or said  
No, no she left me this and twenty blank tapes.
What for?
And I've got books to, for when I, who  I speak to in conversation, you know, the names.
Can you not run away with that?
Who?
No, no, no, no.
No yo no I'm getting paid for it.
Eh?
You get paid for it?
You get paid 
Aha 
for it?
Aye, I get a twenty five pound voucher next week for Marks and Spencers.
Oh!
That's very good.
Oh well you could 
Aye.
get something for it.
Ah!
No, well 
And a  
came up to you
you've got to interview twenty people?
No, no, no i no it's just conversations, you know, normal conversations, like, you know
But if you
I mean I'll take this into work.
They want answers to the er 
you know 
and er, it's just so that they can maybe  pick out  oh yeah!
Never heard that one before, you know, and maybe hear
Mm.
you know, a lot of people use  excuse me, using it.
And 
But 
er
what er
Well I bet you, I bet they've never heard the word the
schock 
Well
More of a certainty, they have.
You've heard it on 
Scottish thing on the telly.
What schock 
Aye.
It's mi mind that in er Molly   er Molly .
Aye, Molly .
She'll come about, that was about  five years ago and  and she was talking about the schock and  half, half the panel er da didn't even know, they couldn't even spell it.
Aye.
Aha.
Well it's out of.
It's not a popular word is it?
Well, because it's old fashioned, I say 
Aha.
.
Could have had a .
But he uses the word si once they came back.
Where do they find that?
Well this is, this for a market research has come to see how often they're used.
For market research, they went to Germany, German words an an and, and French words  we're, we're, we're supposed to be getting into  
Aye, Europe.
Aye, I know, but
Well then
it's just 
how they want to see how  the English word is spoken in the nineteen nineties.
See if there's any di cos I mean they've done all the thing be before, so  the thing is as up to the noo, they want to see if there's any 
Yeah.
The difference.
difference.
That's right.
Just the Scottish and an English ?
No.
Nationwide.
Oh well
How did they find you Gary?
Well she was only one who opened the door and, and asked.
No.
I mean she'd be, she was away to somebody in Brack Street next.
Oh.
You know?
Somebody in each street she picked out?
Aye.
Probably.
Well she was looking in your windows and saw this you see.
Oh that, that is a nice looking house.
It's a  fella at , he'll do it.
Well there you are, it'll be about
Then send up 
Ah oh.
send up the survey to old Hughey, he, he'll give you a few .
Oh!
Phoo!
Oh.
Aye.
Did, did you hear they came round to that
Where?
Anne Marie and that girlfriend that she's going about with today.
No.
What?
Ah di ah but, did you not hear me shouting at them?
No.
What time was this at?
Er er, about ten ele about eleven o'clock.
And he had got a pile of something put on the ground from the  er, at your park.
Aye.
Right?
And he was laughing er, and chasing her with it.
And the screams there!
And he was shouting back to him, but,and then they went up the stair and they called up the stair and I  and I don't know whether it was an affair, the fella that was screaming but he him a mouthful!
And then they came back to her again and they had another carry on there.
And I went to them, I said  well  I think you're acting like a couple of schoolboys, I says, now there's a man there .
I says, I don't think you're  for the beer  beer.
Mhm.
Ah!
He says, we're falling about pissed they are.
Oh aye.
And yu see that  she's falling about
Well aye.
He's not seventeen at least.
Mm mm.
He's only around school.
A young Lonny.
You see the one,di she's gone now?
No.
No.
He's been standing up  he's been standing up there
With a  on her  
Beer.
Cos Valerie said that.
Aha.
Because  I think he's in a room above you, but two or three times she heard er  the wireless that er  someone 
Oh aye.
getting played loud.
But then she says it's stopping her getting Carl down.
But he's definitely staying up there.
Ah well.
And he looks Gary 
Mhm .
he looks about seventeen
Mhm.
if he's a day, I swear.
Mhm.
This, stupid wee school  ah but, she'll be twenty two, twenty three.
Aye.
Mhm mm, yeah.
Aye.
Oh Aye.
Er, but the  you've come in
I've seen them, I didn't know what the hell they were doing.
and I  I was rushing down to get to the stair.
But that was after they'd already tempered.
Aye.
But they just ignored me then.
Mhm.
Couldn't care less.
Ah well, they're not gonna start wrecking the place again.
Oh  no er, no  I knew it was only one night nearly since he
Aha.
dared to be mentioning about  again.
And he's definitely staying there.
Cos I see the two of the kinda leave  quite often, maybe about eleven   
Mhm.
walking their baby.
Mhm.
I never heard a bloody thing.
Oh .
Well, well maybe it was your, maybe you hadn't  .
Were, you were away Saturday then?
Oh Aye.
And whe with that double glazing you cannae hear nothing Lily says.
Aha.
Cos well Mary too, she never can hear it
No that's right.
And 
with double glazing.
same with the lassie for the  on a Monday night.
Mhm.
But we ruddy heard.
Blooming kids 
Oh.
getting disturbed out there.
They were annoying me actually, I thought I'd keep  say something 
Aha.
but 
Aye.
.
And her  the  there's a, he er, he's only left school 
Aye.
though they don't know whether he's  that type, you know,, you know he's
Aye.
Aye.
Well you've seen the one about

I'll be erm I'll be absolutely  I'm sorry but  the dreaded lurgy  so erm I'll do my best.
Erm can I just go  shapes and colours.
And that's  effort we're going to do them tonight.
So first of all I'm going to do a triangle of mixed  and erm and  the red foliage compliments it.
And this is the berberis the purple berberis as you know.
Wouldn't stand up would it.
It's been awfully hot to try to keep decent flowers and foliage grey, and I've sprayed it with water and I don't think it's entirely satisfactory.
Now  do our best.
Ooh these were lovely just now  gardens.
If you want us to answer any questions, perhaps you'll er you'll tell us.   plant somewhere.
Right, now when I've cut it it all curved the right way .
All these bits, it's having to go the other erm  I'm so glad you asked us this evening because we do need some practice.
We've been in flowers most of our lives but not demonstrating, which we're finding a bit, a little bit er different.
Erm you know the  don't you?
Er I had this in soak all night because it, it dries up quickly.
And er then it seems to keep quite a long time if er if you do that.
This has a lovely , but er I think I'm going to put it in the back because my er arrangement is rather heavy, and I don't want it to fall over.
We had er er quite a few catastrophes today with the flowers.
And er coming here I found that I hadn't er put any of my vases in, so I had to go back again .
This is one of the purple .
It's tree really.
But it's so lovely just to have .
How could you condition that?
you mean the bath.
Just in the bath .
it's in the bath.
Yes i if it's too young it won't er keep.
This.
But just now I think it's just about right, for er  just about right for er using.
And here's a bit we want.
I'm not going to need any flowers am I?
I have some er there's some more gladioli.
I don't know what they're called these  just butterfly .
I er thought they were a bit bigger than  
Yes, I think so .
Mm I think they're .
Just give me some  cos we can't go without  can we?
er flowers I bought at an auction.
Erm it was .
And it wasn't too expensive.
But it, I find it useful for large arrangements.
I can just put them down, but I don't awfully like  gladioli when they  down I don't think they look like  .
Some more?
Yes.
Now these aren't coming out very well but they er whoever wins it will  very thorny.
Do you want?
always remind me of Spain
Mm.
where we er went in the summer and erm lots of lovely geraniums and all the .
Compliment the sunshine don't they?
Now   Want an outline don't we?
Lovely colour aren't they?
Which one's this Annie?
Well it's hazel  wood.
Norma grows chrysanths and, but she usually knows the names of all of them.
I think you'll find the Pennine one  it's stiff and horrible.
Whereas if you buy it from
Yes.
you know, the flower stalls,
That's right.
left in an oasis for all these  I can show you  it's also having   I've some nice red carnations which I shall  They're er  not fringe fringed are they?
Not very well fringed.
I keep this all the ti got some you see   I'm trying to group the flowers together because I think they give more effect that way.
And er when you have a er a kaleidoscope, you get all sorts of shapes together don't you?
It's difficult to get a kaleidoscope nowadays.
Toy ones anyway.
What about those?
Oh I didn't tell you who they were.
I don't that I hadn't forgotten that I gave a 
I wrote it down.
Bahamas .
They look like Bahamas don't they?been so hot today if you don't mi er  and it makes you feel you know your age, when er it's this hot weather.
My er my friend  you'll ask how old she is anyway.
Mind you she's ninety two
she er  she says I can't fasten my beads.
I can't er fasten my shoes.
I can't fasten my bra, unless I turn it round.
An but she says it's .
What a sensible person.
Think that's through .
What's the name of that lily please?
Erm Pixie.
Pixie?
Yes.
It's a lovely one isn't it?
We don't want much more in there do we?the red one, sorry?
We don't know the name of that one either do we?
Oh Doris  the names .
There's so many aren't there?
Well that I can remember   belongs to Mary but I'm afraid they're not very strong.
Are they?
I just put those in.
And that will do  till   Have you got a triangle?
And just to er whet your appetite and I'm  a basket of cherries there.
I'll just  in  
I'm just going to start this evening, with Chase an Object Round the Hedgerow.
A piece of oak which my husband has mounted, so it's freestanding.
Some stones which are very good for texture, a piece of sheep shoe wood from Chatsworth Park I picked up.
Try saying that after a few gins.
And some  which gives a  effect.
That'll have to move.
I sort of go scouting when, you know when we're out anywhere, seeing what I can find.
Much to my husband's disgust.
So I'm going to start an outline, hopefully asymmetrical.
This erm  silver birch?
Petula?
It has some lovely catkins on it just now.
This I have boiled to condition it.
It has been standing in water all day, and it has been well scraped before it came out this evening.
So this is a tree stump we have here, and we found some mice on the way as well.
Did y did you notice the mice on the 
Yes,
I didn't make them I er I've had a little go but I'm not very good at it.
Okay.
They are, yes.
I got them at a craft fair at  farm.
colour this is not going to go where I want it to go.
But it will.
So that should freeze them, and this is the new shoots round from the bottom.
If it looks rather large, we encourage you to do them large.
Cos we're still trainee demonstrators.
We take it again, erm I think we start in October time, at Oxford.
We never know when to keep quiet, do we?
You know, we say, yes go on  handy.
We'll go.
Are you coming to Pondsfield?
Yes  
Yes we are.
Yes.
Yes.
Well we, well we do a different one at Pondsfield.
Sorry?
We do a different demonstration at Pondsfield.
I think it, is it this month or is it next?
Yes.
Erm 
Yes I thought it was  
Yes it is this month.
Yeah.
to go there.
See what we can do with a hedgehog.
Put it down a little bit    we have an asymmetrical .
May be a bit laid back but
Get rid of  mice.
It's not very big, is it?
It doesn't like the 
No it doesn't like something.
Sit.
the mice's nest out there   I have some ferns.
They might not grow round here very well in the hedgerows, but er if you go down to Cornwall or Brittany, they're lovely down there.
My husband will never stop so I can go and get some, you know,car keeps going.
It comes from an old cottage garden just round where I .
But I think  I'm supposed to say  having .
The  meaning many.
And the  are the spores on the back of the  ferns.
Which are the seeds  of them.
And they condition quite well.
You know I mean they've got the  turn around the spores on the back.
I've also boiled them just, you know, to be sure of them.
Now as  was saying earlier on, that she's been with flowers all her life, well I haven't.
I started about twelve years ago.
And a lady you know very well  she's not here tonight.
I was going to say, I won't mention her name in case she's run out of.
But, er of course, Pam   I went to her classes er about ten years ago.
I started flower arranging about twelve years ago.
I had two years with Pam.
Then I moved to a different teacher to  get some more, you know, experience.
Because you do learn more from different teachers as you go along.
And then I've worked at .
I did the City and Guilds at .
. These are er  long stick leaves .
It's true .
It's where I've er formed its centre.
Again  aren't they a size?
Mm.
I thought they would sort of er pass as hedgerowey leaves.
And that's er how  and I have demonstrated  because she hasn't got transport of her own.
She finds it a little bit difficult.
So er we demonstrate together.
You know.
And er  so we travel to   And er, Plantain, the ordinary one
Yeah.
from the hedgerow again.
They last quite well.
I did  get some seed from  Botanical Gardens, of their  Plantain.
But er I didn't manage to grow it.
Oh lovely, you know, some nice big leaves for, flower arranging.
My husband puts these on the compost heap when he gets his eye on them.
I nursed one last year for Newark Show.
I thought oh you know you're always short of large leaves.
For the base.
So I was nurturing this one in the greenhouse.
And I went down one day.
It's supposed to be my greenhouse.
And it was missing.
I said, what's happened to the plantain?
He said, ooh do you mean that weed?
It's on the compost heap.
It was, it was coming on lovely.
I said I was going to have .
And that's what happened to that.
Some foxgloves.
I've only got two.
And I'm inundated in the garden with them.
You know.
They  to start with.
At least that's where I think they come from.
And this year I've got them, they're a good seven foot tall in the garden.
they've been marvellous, haven't they?
To say they're a wild flower or classed as a wild flower.
And the markings inside are, you know  they're  .
So I'll put those in there.
Get good keep of the time here don't we ?
Erm some poppies.
Another shape I think you'll find in hedgerows.
Alice.
Mine are just starting to come out.
They're a big red poppy this one.
Mine are the pinky purply one.
These are  you know really magenta red.
The mice get into those, they'll be a bit tipsy.
won't they?
some pheasant feathers.
lovely markings, haven't they?
Think you might find some of those in a hedgerow?
Different texture again.
you can never find any going, can you?
Oops.
You sort of learn as you go on.
You don't put too much stuff in till you get your flowers in.
come out as I tell you.
Single chrysanthemum.
They're the flowers chrysanths and I say, they come from Holland.
The ones I grow at home er well they are named.
They are mostly Ryes from  Moor.
that I had  and I show them.
Although lately if I'm flower arr er showing at the yeah flower arranging at shows  I've then got time to show the flowers.
I'm caught you know betwixt and between, which do I like the best.
We've put enough in this floral fiesta.
I don't know whether we'll get a you know, any places or not.
But we put in to go anyway.
Someone once told me, aim high, she says.
So we have a go.
Which ?
So you you're not supposed to get it, you know, it's er  we'll take the leaves off.
We've put in for the club entry and we're just waiting to hear, you know, if we've been lucky or not.
Or rather 
Well we've been on to and they don't seem to do an awful lot.
You know, I was, rather surprised .
I'm going to recess these a little bit.
In the middl in the centre.
We haven't had a  lately have we?
These I've boiled again to , you know it brings the head down, and I think it does make th the flowers last longer.
Put about stem in boiling water and er, let it stand for about thirty seconds.
Now this is for the dog daisies that you get in er hedgerows.
I haven't said that have I yet?
As I grow chrysanths we have to do erm   I'm not getting the right word.
A survey it's a at the college you know, and er and they did er carnations and I've done, the chrysanths about growing them.
So I thought well I might as well do something, I know a little about.
So we did that.
And you've got er  I've got some notes here and I've got them covered up with something else.
That's clever, isn't it?
Nice and cool, the white and green, isn't it?
Mm.
Now for the     that out and I'll see what I've written down for this  Oh yeah  er   see Sue lost it erm  well it's a canine meaning, you know, the rose erm the dog rose.
But, instead of that   digress a little but because I didn't think you'd like the dog roses.
So
No.
I've taken the thorns off, and I've defoliated them.
And I've also boiled the ends as you can see there.
It's   that one.
Now I had a right job with them.
I was trying to tell them it wasn't so hot yesterday and then  coming out and out you know.
So me and  got the, the ice packs out of the freezer.
And I drop kept dropping into the buckets  to cool the water down.
It was terrible hot yesterday.
It was.
Yes.
And I haven't got an awful lot of shade at home, you know.
No.
So er  I was having a rare old time.
We were dropping the ice packs in to try and keep the .
Are they hot?
I sometimes, if I can get the new floribunda roses, but er  there's none in the market, and we got these.
Yes.
Yes.
I've got an introduction to the wholesale market.
But you can't buy an awful lot, you know.
Erm  because that you want more than your bits and pieces.
Right.
For function roses you're okay but er  a lot of things real go to erm, a place, well it, it's .
It's just on the outskirts of .
Er, it used to be called Joe , but he's died and Woods have got it now.
And they're very helpful.
Now you say you like your gardens open.
I was going to bring a, a poster for you and I've forgot it.
What with Anna running me up and down the countryside.
They, they've got gardens open in Calverton on the twenty fifth of July.
There's six gardens open, for a pound.
It's er a garden walkabout.
And it's open two o'clock till six.
If anybody'd be interested.
It's for the preservation society.
And the last one going in.
Now  goes missing, we'll have to give her a shout.
Ooh she's  she's there.
what she thought she was missing.
So you shapes and textures from the hedgerow.
Is there anything  quick and easy.
I hope.
It, it hasn't been so far because I'm left right behind a  background.
Erm right then.
Erm the lovely  with the terracotta, aren't they?
Er.
Yes.
But it er  er, do you want this ?
Er, I got this .
and I used them this year  and they er  I've got quite a lot of  Right furry  I was er hoping to get   I don't think these'll come out somehow.
The lady in the shop was very good.
I looked right through them all and er   however.
This is er a quick thing you can do.
When you get home.
We use this for all the Egyptian things we do.
It's very good.
That's a lovely one.
Look at that.
I think it's Enchantment.
But it's, it's quite pink for Enchantment, isn't it?
If it is Enchantment.
Where did your pot come from?
Sorry?
The pot?
Where did the pot come from?
Er.
yes it was.
I've got one or two that came from abroad but no this was Liverpool,
Yeah.
on the road er    They've got quite a good selection now.
Haven't they?
Now  we'll just give it a little bit of lift.
I'm going to add these canes.
Canes.
put that one .
And put that one in the top.
These were bought at  er  I think you can get some in the, in the florist.
I'll just do a  I don't know if any more petals  will last.
There I think that's 
Now.
my daughter's looking for a  actually.
So.
I've had to, this cupboard's  because it's got  cutlery and the plates and that, so I've just put a piece of er material over it.
To hide them.
And I'm going to put two pieces of garden cane in.
just hold the basket for me.
I think.
Small garden cane    It's made it rather heavy with er, the material on it as well.
That's better.
Just stay there.
Mm.
So this is going to be an A back asymmetrical.
Triangle.
I've got a plastic container here to raise the oasis on the saucer, up a little bit because it's quite deep inside.
So er  It makes it easier to  find the saucer if it's raised.
I'm going to start with the outline of , from the garden.
Which has again been boiled.
I think it's a lovely light foliage isn't is?
Mm.
So refreshed.
And I thought well I  I'll do this with all summer flowers.
I've got this.
It's grown on a, a north facing wall so  bit, bit more now I think if it got more sun.
You know.
The golden foliages need a lot of sun.
Or the elderflower.
Do you make elderflower wine or champagne?
Mm.
Yes.
Have you 
I've done it for my grandchildren this year.
Oh.
I was going to say have you got any with you?
Well, I made some ooh a few years ago.
And my husband at the time was making er wine, you know.
And he said, you've put far too much sugar in that.
You've put far I said I'm just following this recipe.
You know.
And he was right.
I did put far too much sugar in it cos it all exploded.
Kep kep kept my  busy, you know.
That's another one gone mum and that's  another one gone .
They were in the garden shed.
And I was just saying I'm going to have to go down there.
What happened then?
Erm.
Oh I had  then.
I've told you about grandchildren.
I've just had two presented to me in the last eight months.
I've got a granddaughter and a grandson.
The granddaughter I look after because my, my daugh youngest daughter's gone back to work.
And she's called Jordan.
Spelt J O R  D A N.
And she, she's eight months old now.
You forget how many hands a baby has, don't you?
You know, you get out of practice, and there it starts.
She's found that my glasses didn't seem to be right.
So her hands were up and they were off before I knew where they were.
And then she's, you're trying to feed her and the, the dinner's all over the place.
So now we wrap her in a tea towel so you know her hands are under cover.
Erm   It's erm  I think.
I got it given to me so er if you think it's a different one you can tell me.
So when you get a lot of things given, you know, I never say no.
but you don't always get the right name, do you?
Do she really did it on me  well it was yesterday I had her.
I was changing her nappy for her.
Well she started flopping along the floor on her back.
And you, you know she, she can go at some pace.
So I started changing her nappy for her and she decided she was going to take off.
It was like hanging on to a wriggly eel.
You know?
She was trying to move.
So the next time I thought, No madam you're on the settee on your changing mat, and er I've got you.
And the other one Aaron.
A little boy.
He lives in London.
My eldest daughter she works down there.
And when she said she was going to have a baby, rather a surprise at the new year time.
So we said, well what would you, you know, can we get something?
Well they're living away.
What can we get you for the baby?
So she said, oh two bedside cabinets and a drop-leaf table.
So.
I says to her, well what you know what can you do with that?
Well you can help me to cope with him, she said, you know.
So she's got the two bedside cabinets but not the drop-leaf table.
Er  now this is grown in Calverton.
We have a small nursery there.
And he grows them in wind tunnels.
He hadn't got a big selection   but I went down er  I was going to use stocks.
was going to use stocks and er  oh gladioli that was it.
And when we went to the market they didn't have any on  as I say, Anna went to   and got her gladioli.
So Jord Jordan and I had a walk down to the mark the nursery yesterday morning.
Before it got too hot.
seven nurseries at Calverton.
Did, did you know that we have one there now?
Quite industrious .
if we get packets sent   The butchers     If you get one thing set in your mind what you're going to do, and you know, you go off to get it, and then er if you don't manage it, then you have to start  again.
This is erm  the mallow, the shrub.
This is the rose and I've also got  hidden in the box somewhere.
You might be able to  some of it because it grows ever so easily you know.
If anybody wants some I've got, quite a good specimen.
There's quite a few at the back now, isn't there?
The really deep purply one as well.
Yeah.
Oh  pinching the pink and whites.
This is a paler one  a bit pink.
This .
I've left a shoot on there.
Take all the flower heads off if you want it to grow.
If you don't all the strength goes into the flowers.
These have got  or  haven't you?
And I've got some .
Got this in the garden as well.
It came down from Scotland.
My mother had it in her garden.
So it   think it likes the water very much.
Give you a little chance to talk and get, catch up with all your news or something   I hope you're not   I find it  isn't it?sweet peas.
Mm.
I'm going to put these in some  because like Anna says you know if you  flowers you have more impact with them.
Now these are grown on my neighbours fence.
I did ask.
They're grown on my neighbours fence and it comes on to my path.
And she doesn't like them.
for her to have them in the house.
So I, ooh you know, could I have some?
And I did have some of the  as well so.
I will be short of a little bit of blue so you have your  kaleidoscope.
There.
blue.
Well they say the more you pick them the more they come isn't it?
So let's hope they're right.
And this you know sort of more flowers on as well.
I bought some of them er from the  show last year.
Entered  show last year.
I got second prize.
I was quite pleased with that you know because it's er
Good show mm.
It is, yes.
I think you have to round all your friends and family you know    Nice Yorkshire flowers.
Nice  there's some of them that look as though they're double.
I've had the dreaded cough as well Haven't you had it in Southwell yet?
If, if you get it  if you get it everyone has it   I think I'm doing a little bit what  we did last night   Excuse me.
Bit short of colour.
And just to give it a centre.
It's .
I've had it thirty years in my garden.
Think  could have been done with tree but er  So a pretty basket of summer flowers.
For a different  I'm going to  That's right.
I've got some candles just to give it some height.
Erm I'll tell you about the er  while I'm doing some .
Erm  we call it the cherry chucker .
Erm because when I was a little girl my brother and I we used to  flowers because my mother sold flowers and we would have to deliver them.
To our regular customers.
And er  we didn't always remember where they lived.
And er, oh this is the .
Lovely green.
And er  and so, explaining to my brother where, or trying to get out of him where the, the customer lived.
Erm  he'd say, you know the row of houses where er  where they have all things in the bay windows that I er  I er  an Alsatian dog  or a  an aspidistra  or a, a cherry chucker.
And the ch the cherry chucker, the ones with little girls holding 
Oh yes.
cherries in them.
Ever since then all these kind of er 
So it's now a family joke.
It's lovely.
This room is so fresh looking.
And the  You know the white  And that's just nice just now isn't it?
And of course we've got this  I have a little dog and she loves to roll in this.
So I have to tie it up.
And the cat .
day we had a cat in our garden and er  my dog isn't as big as a cat.
It's a Yorkshire terrier.
And the dog barged through th the cat barged through the hedge.
And I thought, I hope the dog doesn't follow because it's a main road.
And it sat at the other side of the gate 
as if to say you can't get me now.
And er  luckily she didn't follow it, but the cat did get  and go away.
And er  a car came by at that moment.
I shut my eyes.
But it was er it was fine.
I think I  a bit put it in the back now.
lovely shape  This is for orchids and this is the  the fern that comes with them, which is quite useful.
How do you condition the  
Oh I just boiled the ends a bit and erm  and then put it in deep water.
And I, I have sprayed it this week because it's been so hot .
So I sprayed it with a fine spray and it's kept very well, hadn't it?
But er I think this sun will brown it, don't you?
Brown it quite a lot.
I'd just like one  I've er     orchids.
I think they employ little men to twist them together.
I was in Singapore some years ago and erm   when we, well when we landed, all the ladies were given a an orchid.
It was rather nice.
And erm  when I came away again I brought some orchids with me.
And for an armful I paid thirty shillings.
I thought that was very  to have turned round .
Lovely colours in these.
.Some of them are.
It was lovely to see them growing in er  Singapore.
And we had some friends there and one day one of them rang me up and she said, could, could we come quickly we've got a, a monitor lizard in the garden?
Well I'd never seen a monit she didn't know how to .
I said, alright we'll come and on the way .
I said, what have you done about it?
She said, I've hit with a sweeping brush.
So I said, alright shut the door and we'll come.
And er  when we got there there was a little chit-chat about that.
It was a tiny lizard but  not er not that you would want to hit with a sweeping brush.
And while we were, while we were there we had some invitations to, to dine out with  well it was my daughter's  and we went and had a meal with them  and they were quite taken back by er  they lived in this little  which originally I had thought was a  was a er  a poultry house.
It  looked like a poultry house.
And er when we got inside, it was spotlessly clean and shiny.
It was lovely.
And er all the children went out while we had a meal.
I couldn't see any clothes about anywhere.
Just a lot of furniture in there but there was nothing hung about you know.
And so er  we had this meal which was curry.
Chicken curry.
And er  it was lovely and we were enjoying it until  I pulled out the whole chicken's head.
Knife in it.
So I'm afraid that did put me off .
Yes that did put me off.
So I stuck to all the side dishes, which were  they were very nice.
Cucumber and all sorts of exotic things that er .
However it was lovely staying there and it was lovely weather .
Here's a tip   rather nice.
Shame to cut them down now isn't it?
I've got one or two pinks.
These are the  pinks.
They smell gorgeous too.
Just to fill in.
quite high.
Last year we were going to er  a show at er    and I was doing a modern arrangement and er, we were in Norman's van.
And one of my er     had a, a just a tiny flaw in it.
And I said to Norman have you got anything in here that would cover it up?
He said I've got a frog.
I said I don't think .
So er  as we was going along this ladybird flew on to my hand, didn't it?
Well I thought about it.
I looked at it.
I thought, How do you kill a ladybird?
So I didn't.
So I went off to the er   at the show.
I just er  put the one loose  into er  into the top where the judge wouldn't see it I hoped.
And I won a first prize so I said,.
So it shows you never should kill a ladybird.
Make a bad saint wouldn't I?pretty.
more foliage.
Quite nice and  in the  at .
Because they go in a caravan.
a secret but I don't know whether I dare tell you.
But er I was with a gentleman friend.
I don't know whether 
She said, let me know .
you might as well go to bed with a Mills and Boon.
I don't mind who knows  You know I think I'm  Old flames isn't it?
It's got a  star.
Look.
I think everyone's finding er  Alright?
I think I might put those in.
Somebody told me I had .
I don't I .
Mrs  always does the most  clever .
Oh yes.
I've forgotten.
Oh 
Oh yes.
. Yes.
Yes.
And er  there'll be white while .
Someone hanging up their secateurs .
Yes.
I should say, Well thank goodness for that.
You're the twelfth one .
I know.
But we weren't the twelfth choice.
No doubt we were the next day.
Now there we have our 
Now you have to have what  a European style.
So we're going to finish this evening with a European style.
I have two margarine cartons in here.
And a Fuchsia which is called Superstar.
I just  plant  some people own.
And it just fills it in.
I think a plant rather than foliage or whatever.
So.
We're going to do a European hedgerow style.
But for the height .
And the purple.
And it's a little bit different from other flowers.
This has the  from the top down, doesn't it.
I think the heat's got to the greenery.
Well it's, it looks like it's been cooking.
I'll scrape it.
I just have to  this crescent there.
buy flowers you know.
By the time she gets to the den she's always got another  ready .
You think, where's she got those from?
You know she didn't buy those while we were out.
football.
And this you know  like this style you can make it small or large as you like, and you can come out to the sides as well.
Give it extra length.
It's based on the high , and the verticals and you don't have a  point.
Where all your flowers come from the same point.
While we were at  we went down to er  Oakham.
To a day school.
With two Danes come over from Belgium.
To show us how to do the hedgerow and the European round table design as well.
Well we thought, well you know, we c we can do a bit.
I'm just thinking I've got these on the wrong horizontal scale.
I think this is the Connecticut King   I'm going to have to make a corner there.
Now it's very easy to do this, you know.
Don't be frightened to have a go at it.
I did er a day school.
Taught it myself, you know.
At er Woodroffe.
I started doing the teacher's cause because I thought  I'd like to teach.
And of course they closed all the night classes, didn't they?
Erm I think that one will .
Now what I want to do is er  I have to set this  you know and find a venue to go to.
But with all these grandchildren and what have you, I don't seem to have any time.
And camping   We've just come back from Cornwall and it was very wet.
peninsula.
You've got the Atlantic on both sides and er  it's lovely if you've got the weather, you know.
Really lovely.
But we didn't have the weather.
And in fact one nine o'clock back to the tent.
Got a tent  that we sit in and cook in.
And erm  we got there and I says to my husband I says, oh, I says er, are you sure that tent's safe?
You know it's  battling about a bit.
So erm  blue  again because I  er a bit short on blue for the kaleidoscope.
Er it's not the  is it?
Yes.
I didn't want to say that.
This is from the cottage garden again.
From you know round .
Oh short of blue, could, could I have a little bit?
Erm  and now getting back to Cornwall.
sayin saying to my husband says, well I don't think the tent sounds very safe you know.
It keeps flapping about and that.
I thought, oh dear, so we got to bed by this time, and we lay, and we just couldn't get to sleep for the noise the tent was making.
So he says, might be a good idea t to you know put the van in front of the tent to break the wind.
So I was laid out in the back of the van on the bed and he's driving down this field to put the tent, because it had little er bits you know where it's marked out for you to camp, and I'm driving around in the back saying, yes you've, you've just missed the fence there and you know .
I can't see where we're going because I didn't have my glasses on.
So it was quite  there you know.
Erm 
Yes.
I got it from I bought it at er Blooms.
In Norfolk.
So I'll keep the yellows together.
And another theme of the European is the grouping of the colours.
I don't know how I'm going to  because I've got some peculiar colours.
But I'm having the yellow.
I think that is the nearest I could get to the orange.
You know to be the opposite to the purple.
If you get what I mean.
As it's opposite in the  on the colour wheel, isn't it?
Now these are little ones I've grown in the greenhouse myself.
They haven't been fed properly, so they're not very big.
But it's a sort of purply pink so  they'll go down here.
And you know to cut between the  on these.
Yes.
We'll start to take the water out.
Anna didn't tell you and she's the expert on flower arrangement.
And I think that ties in nicely with the pink in the .
Some more yellow.
It's .
And I like these  you know  you still want to come in.
I don't want to go out to much to the side there.
I  always  later.
Now as I was picking the ivy for this, I've got a cherry a standard cherry tree  and the starlings get on my fence and they queue up to get on that cherry tree, you know you can hear them chattering away.
If you go out shoving them off they go up on to the roof of the house, and as soon as you turn your back they're back again.
Well these had got, these cherries had been growing where they couldn't see them you know.
nice  of cherries this morning.
But I don't think they were quite ready yet.
You know they were nice and red but er  these birds and I've, I've got them covered, but it's quite tall so I can't keep it all covered.
But they can beat me to it every time.
And they weren't the least bit frightened.
I'll just put a little bit wispy in the back  because when I was in Hans' class, the best triangle I ever did was lovely, really pleased with it and it collapsed didn't it?
Because I hadn't put  in the back.
A little bit of the juniper  shape and texture.
Going into there.
The only colour's the blue   you know but it's er  I always make so  noise with anybody's paper.
isn't it.
Something else you don't see much of these days isn't it?
I was brought up in the country, on a farm you know, so   I'll try and sort of make you know equal amount of flowers in each, and then er it can be halved.
In the raffle.
If you want to, it's up to you.
I'm pleased you haven't got spotlights here.
Last year we went to er Kirkby to a dem all day.
It was a, it was just a lecture theatre.
And they had these spotlights on and we were melting.
And you know like  we'll sit down and one take turn from the other.
I went through the back to sit on the chair.
Very posh theatre it was.
Sat down and I fell through the whole of the chair.
The back went you know the seat of the chair went  the back.
I said   didn't you hear anything ?
She said, no never heard a thing.
landscape.
Have you got some red roses for me Anna?
Anna's  you know.
Lovely colour aren't they?
They're just starting  you see them more  it would be nice to have them but you know .
lovely.
Erm  so a little bit of  and   This is 
I'll put it in there.
Then I'll have the red roses .
It's rather  you know .
Putting the links in.
This is er .
There's a little erm  piece in there you might want to  
Lay it on top of the potted peat down a little bit.
Oh I'm  that aren't you?
I always find small plants you know  to watch them grow.
much entertainment.
It is nice down where the swans are, isn't it?
Now this hasn't really got going yet.
And it's the bloody dog.
The .
So  if I can get it going you know it's, it's er  there you can see look what .
go.
Yes.
Couldn't you, can you not air off the carnation?
This isn't the ideal .
Crisper.
Yeah.
I was surprised the size the leeks are getting.
Oh yes.
And some of the older ones are even bigger.
Thanks very much.
This is Sandra, I hope.
The person I got it from.
Sandra I don't know if you have it here have you?
Demonstrating?
I got that from Sandra.
I, I went in her class as well at Mansfield.
And then I decided that was  to do with  again.
That was when I decided to go to  to do the City and Guilds course.
but we'll have a go.
Er the  the shrubby one.
As opposed to the one that grows tall.
I've got them both.
I thought it was a very good  point.
Yes?
And they'll dry nice but I think you'd need to put a stiff wire in them now while they're st you know young.
But they will dry nicely and  you can either keep them green, or you can spray them you know at Christmas time.
If you wrap them in newspaper you keep the green better.
Keep .
The demonstrator we had last night I  demonstrator.
He said he puts his dry material er into glycerine or  er antifreeze.
For a day.
So it, you know, it's not so brittle.
Now I've got some roses to put in somewhere haven't I?
Yeah.
They'll have to go that side.
Erm    We thought we should try and do something as a kaleidoscope.
So we have  a round shape of a kaleidoscope.
Hopefully it behaves itself.
trying to  make it balance all afternoon so I  had to start it yesterday  to make it balance.
Yes I'm coming.
And it's not going to do it.
isn't it?
Put it down a little bit more.
Got  girls?
Who was the demonstrator you had last night then?
Er 
Yes.
Yes.
He's off to G-Mex today he says.
He's got a dem toda you know he's doing something there.
He grows  all his own material.
Well he, at the moment he says he's self sufficient.
Which I suppose we all should be really shouldn't we?
He had an allotment which he grows his material on.
You know  at home.
He said you've got all these men, straight lines with the vegetables and that and er  he's got his, you know, rows and rows of  different stuff he has in.
I  straight in to yellow or yellow to orange.
Oh I've got some .
And wrap a little bit of your Autumn Joy  been quite conned into flower which as I say I think  looks a little bit like broccoli doesn't it?
You know it does .
Good rough texture.
I'll just put it back  a little bit there.
It all works out differently  you know it, it looks very nice with er spring flowers as well.
Got a nice bright green ivy.
Well they did have when I bought them .
That's always a sign of freshness in the chrysanths.
But they had all sorts of  virtually now don't they?
That's why I didn't want to go to the edge because I wanted to try and  do my own.
I might have to hold on to it  You'll have to get people to  you know.
put it on the table now.
Don't come  .
Thank you ladies for inj for er inviting us here.
We've enjoyed the evening.
As we say we need all the practice we can get.
And we wish you a safe journey home.
Thank you.
it's a pleasure to say thank you to Mrs  and Mrs  for your kaleidoscope of colour.
We've really enjoyed it.

And welcome to the lunch time phone in with me John Simpson, and I'm here through till erm one o'clock as you heard.
News headlines at twelve thirty.
We will of course keep you up to date: any development in the Gulf erm during the next erm fifty minutes or so, so stay tuned.
But it's your chance to talk about what's going on; here we are, day two of the Gulf conflict, and erm all the sounds on the first day were very optimistic from an allied point of view, but are we getting too optimistic?
We've heard a lot about the accuracy of the continuing bombardments, but erm anybody who's been in a war will tell you that erm once you're in a war situation, things don't always go the way you expect them to, in fact there has to be an element of luck and erm the accuracy of bombing in particular erm sometimes leaves something to be required.
Now, from reports that have come out of Baghdad, it does sound as though there is a great deal of accuracy on erm the targets, but we don't know yet exactly what's been going on.
So what do you think about the overall situation as it stands at the present time?
And in particular, have you any thoughts on the overnight attack on Israel, the seven missiles which were fired at Israel, what effects do you think this is going to have on the conflict?
And do you expect Israel to attack, and if they do attack, or retaliate, then will this change the whole complexion of the conflict?
Well if you'd erm like to call now the lines are open, I'd like to hear your point of view, your reaction to what's going on; I know a lot of people erm are not in agreement with what's going on.
On the other hand, erm quite a number are supporting the troops that are doing the fighting on our behalf, so it's up to you; it's your comments that we want — Oxford, three double one, one double one, the lines are open and do please call in now.
We'll go straightaway to Freeland and Tom — hello Tom.
Hello.
And your point please?
erm my point is this, and I speak with some authority, I speak Arabic, I'm an ex-colonial policeman in Palestine 
mhm 
I saw the plight of the Jews, but I've also served with the Arabs in M I six of the Field Security Service, from Turkey to Libya, and erm I don't like what I see.
The United Nations, years ago, under the same Charter, under the same regulation, told Israel to return to her boundaries.
She flagrantly refused to do so, and I'm not sufficiently a fool, knowing Arabs better than most, that Saddam took advantage of this knowing perfectly well we reneged on helping the Palestine Arabs, deliberately invaded Kuwait so that because he thought he could get away with it.
mhm
And I believe there's going to be a lot of killings as there have been killings.
You see, when you're an Arab and you fight for your country, you are a terrorist, when you are a Jew, and I'm not anti-Jewish, I'm anti-Zionist, you are a freedom fighter.
We betrayed the Arabs over the Balfa declaration, we betrayed them after they cleared Africa and the Middle East under Lawrence, we betrayed them in the last war when they backed our rear and allowed the ninth army, and I was there, to join the eighth army and get out , and directly the last war was over, we betrayed them again — there's a complete betrayal of the Arabs in the Middle East.
I sympathise with the Jews, they must have a home.
I believe they were given a home with luck and Arab backing, but then they wanted a State which they got, I believe they were entitled to one.
Now they want an empire, and they drove eight hundred thousand people, farmers, small farmers, out of their rightful land, languishing in the Jordan valley in the Dead Sea area, which is one of the hottest places on earth; I've been there and lived there, with no hope of getting back, and the only hope they've got is driving Israel out of their occupied countries.
Now when this is all over, and Saddam has got to be stopped, forcibly stopped, when this is over, I believe that there's got to be no reneging as this country has constantly done with the Arabs; there has got to be a Middle East conference, and the Israelis said ‘yes, we agree to your State, but return to your original frontiers or you will get the same treatment as Saddam has got.’
Thank you.
So you're saying then that there is a double standard as far as 
Exactly, double standards 
United Nations and the British 
There always is with the British government.
There was double standards even in Libya against the Arabs, when we betrayed  the old Zanussi king and put the pro-Italian Arabs in charge of Libya when oil was found.
So we've now obviously got the political will to take action against erm Iraq, do you see them being enough political will following on from this conflict erm I mean we obviously don't know how the course of this conflict is going to go.
But assuming we  it does come to some sort of settlement ultimately, are you saying then that you still doubt whether there's that political will?
I do while there's such a great Jewish lobby that this British  in America, that this British  our own government keeps kowtowing to.
Right.
Okay, well thank you for your comments, if anybody else wants to join in on that discussion do ring now, three double one, one double one.
Tom from Freeland, who has, as he said, erm some experience because he had erm been in the Middle East for some time, speaks Arabic and erm putting a very strong point there, if you'd like to comment on that or other aspects of the Gulf erm conflict, do ring now, three double one, one double one.
Let's go to Julia — hello Julia.
Hello.
Whereabouts are you calling from?
Headington.
Right.
I would just like to  I know we need to  the television programmes on about the Gulf and so on, but I've two young children at home, and I find that yesterday was a very long day  because there was just nothing on for them at all B B C two at four o'clock.
I like to put the television on, as there's usually a very good programme at twelve ten like there is supposedly Rainbow today, but there isn't, which I find very useful for my toddler while I'm getting lunch for the baby, myself and her, so she can sit down for twenty minutes, there can be a few minutes peace, and there's just  you know it's just not on.
So you're cross because 
I mean I don't like my children watching a lot of television, all right, but, you know, it is useful.
You're cross because 
They've rescheduled 
There obviously is a lot of coverage about what's going on in the Gulf 
Yes, I mean they had it on all the channels virtually yesterday 
Yes, I mean 
I know there should be, but  you know.
You think there should be more balance?
I think there should be,yes.
Yes, I mean I have to say that if you're, if you're a member of a family and one of your members of the family is out in the Gulf, then you're obviously going to be 
Glued to it 
Even more concerned than we ought to be 
Yes 
I mean, let's not forget people are in danger of losing lives there.
Yes I know, but surely, you know, they could just slot in a couple of like the twenty minute, fifteen minute toddler programmes or something within the day.
It's a very delicate question is it not, because, here we are, we're reporting on people who are in conflict, in great danger 
Oh yes, yes.
And it's very difficult to go from that to something which is much lighter.
Yes, I know.
It's going to offend a lot of people, and it's a problem which I'm sure exercises a lot of minds.
Yes, but when you have it on from one o'clock right through till six o'clock in the evening on I T V  not you know, constantly.
And you think that should not happen, there shouldn't be so much coverage.
I think there should be as much coverage, but I think there should be a break between it all.
I mean it's not the weather you can take the children out in the afternoon  is there  is it?
And I know  and I know these families have got young children and so on, and surely they too would like a break from it, for the children?
Children are rushing around you know, all day..
mhm mhm 
I mean alright, perhaps some people have got very good children that sit down and will play with a puzzle for half an hour non-stop, you know, beautifully.
But a lot of people would say of course that it is of such importance, that we really ought to be up to date with exactly what's going on, after all this is happening on our behalf.
Yes, I know, but there's also the radio coverage as well.
Yes, but I mean there is the point of course that how, how did mothers cope before we had television, I mean there's 
Well yes, there is that, but 
I mean perhaps it's not something there used to doing too much, but is it not possible to get them to amuse themselves?
Yes when you've got one screaming and one rushing around, yes.
I'm not suggesting for one moment it's easy, but I mean is it possible that, you know erm accepting that this is a major conflict, it does involve all of us whether we like it or not 
Yes but I mean it is very tiring.
I was absolutely shattered last night 
mhm 
Absolutely shattered.
Okay, well if anybody else has 
Like you know I had to think well what the hell am I going to do with her now, you know, and, you know, get her out of this mischief, and out of that mischief and you know, from bashing her baby brother up, and you know.
Right, well if anybody else 
You know, ten minutes peace 
Has comments on that, we'll take them.
Thanks very much indeed for making that point Julia, that's Julia from Headington.
So if you have erm comments on that, do call Oxford three double one, one double one.
This is the lunch time phone in and my name is John Simpson.
The Lemon Pipers and Green Tambourine.
The time, twenty one minutes past twelve and it's erm the lunch time phone in with me John Simpson through till one o'clock, don't forget we've got the latest news headlines coming up at half past twelve, and if you want to join in the phone in you can now, Oxford three double one, one double one, the lines are open, there are lines free, so if you want to ring in.
We'll go erm to our next caller very shortly who's just waiting on the line, so if we can go to that caller yet, we can't just for the moment I'm told.
Well, our main subject obviously this morning, a great talking point of course, is the conflict in the Gulf and erm the overnight development of that missile attack on Israel, we're still waiting to hear what erm effects that will have on the Israeli's attitude, will they actually strike back, and if they do strike back and retaliate on Iraq, what effect will that have on the overall conflict?
Will it change the route of the conflict?
If you have thoughts on that or any other aspect of what's going on in the Gulf at the moment, do ring in, three double one, one double one.
I'm told we can now go to our next caller who's Mandy calling from Freeland.
Hello Mandy.
Hello, good afternoon erm I'm just ringing in response to the previous caller you had on actually.
I too am a mother at home with a baby 
mhm 
But I totally disagree with what she said in that erm yesterday I sat glued to the television most of the day, really to keep myself up to date on what was going on, erm I also have a baby but I managed to keep him occupied as well as take him out for a walk and give him his lunch and what have you.
erm I don't have a relative in the Gulf erm but I  for my own peace of mind, I wanted to keep up to date with things that were going on erm and also for my husband really, he is at out at work all day and I, you know  it was nice when he came home from work for me to be able to tell him exactly what went on.
Yes, I mean it's really a question as far as you're concerned of keeping abreast of what's going on, I mean after all, it is  I'm just slightly worried personally that we're  everybody seems to be very optimistic, and I mean I'm not in a position to judge one way or the other, but erm you know what it's like, you know  surely you can get too optimistic?
I'm not suggesting the military are, but that's the impression coming off, that you know, all this is going to be easy, but I'm sure it isn't.
That's right, it's erm obviously with the developments this morning erm on one of the erm French news reporters having seem some Israeli war planes going off, I mean things are sort of worsening by the minute.
Yesterday things looked pretty hopeful but  that it wouldn't take too long to get the whole thing sorted out, but I must admit things seem to be escalating and getting a lot worse now.
erm Yes, I mean it seems very difficult to keep in touch with exactly what is happening because of the communication blackout, but erm from what we're hearing erm obviously there is still a lot more mileage in this conflict it seems to me.
That's right.
I mean that was really my only comment that I just erm heard this lady speaking erm okay she's got two children and it probably is difficult to keep two children occupied without any children's programmes, but like you commented, ‘what did people do before television’, and erm I mean I'm sure erm Rainbow and such, the people who produce those sort of television programmes would understand that keeping the majority of the country erm informed of what was going on was slightly more important than erm having children's programmes on.
I mean I enjoy children's programmes 
Yes.
And the programmes that are on during the day, but erm this sort of thing is slightly more important I feel.
Can I ask you, are you at all nervous about what's happening in the Gulf in the sense  I mean should we actually be there doing what we're doing erm as part of the Allied Force, does that make you nervous?
It does erm yes, it does, in fact my husband was out there erm in Tel Aviv on a course about a year ago erm and I  you know I'm beginning to think I'm  goodness I'm glad it was last year and not this year.
erm you know, he's possibly seeing things on television, sort of areas that he actually visited.
mhm
erm I mean as I said before, I don't have relatives out in the Gulf, but I feel immensely for these men that are out there, men and women, and also for the news reporters, I mean nobody's actually said what an awful job it must be for these news reporters and sort of camera crews that are actually erm doing this sort of wonderful job of bringing us back here all this information.
mhm Okay, thank you very much for your call Mandy 
Okay 
And putting your point of view, I'm going to move on because I've got lots more calls.
That was Mandy from Freeland, let's go to Buckland and Lee — hello Lee.
Hello, I am just horrified that a young woman who wanted children presumably, can make such a damn fuss, I really am.
It's interesting, you're talking about our first caller who was saying that there was just too much television coverage 
That's right 
erm I mean, it's interesting, that's not the only person that's said that to me erm one of the youngsters actually said that to me last night erm sort of complaining again along the same sort of lines, and I said ‘well hang on a minute, you know there are people actually at this moment who are putting their lives on the line and 
Exactly.
And you're sitting here complaining’, and he said ‘ah, yes I hadn't thought of that’.
Well, what's wrong with them?
Well 
I'm sorry, I'm sixty eight, I was a WAF in the last war.
mhm
And quite frankly, you know, a girl to not think of what's going on over there, I find it appalling.
But is it  I mean I'm not old enough to remember the war or 
Oh aren't you lucky 
Well, that's probably right erm I can just about remember it and  you know as a child, and it didn't really sink in, it was some years afterwards before it actually sank in exactly what had been going on 
True 
You don't grasp it when you're young, and if you're born, obviously as a lot of the population now are, much younger, and haven't really been either touched or involved in a war, it's very difficult, it's something which we've all seen on television, we've all seen it at the films and you tend if you're not careful, to pick up the glamorous side of it, you don't realise I don't think and in fact I keep saying this — I don't think you can ever realise what it must be like to be in a battle until you've actually been there.
No 
And fortunately most of us haven't.
Yes, yes, but you know, it  well to me, the mind boggles that a young mum can make a fuss over a television programme, it really does.
Okay, thank you very much for your comments 
Right, thank you, goodbye 
That's Lee from Buckland, thank you for ringing.
Let's move now to Lilian who's calling from Oxford — whereabouts in Oxford are you Lilian?
Cowley.
Right, what's your point?
Well I was agreeing with the erm young mother.
Right, go on, why do you agree, why do  you think that there's too much coverage of the Gulf?
Yes, I do because it's on  as she said it was on continually.
I put my television on to see Blockbusters, which I like.
mhm
And it was  it's the same thing over and over and over again.
They're not telling us anything new.
Partly because there are communication difficulties, not that the communications don't work, but there are obviously 
No.
Censorship and things like this.
But I mean, continual coverage.
I think 
Nothing is happening even with radio programmes, every half an hour.
Well we 
Updates.
Yes, I mean we obviously feel that there are people who can't sit and listen or watch continually, and people who do dip in and out, but they still nonetheless want to know exactly what's going on.
I mean particularly so if you're involved in the service, but I don't think it's just restricted to that, I want to know what's going on.
I mean the one fear surely is that this isn't something which is happening on a, I was going to say a small local area, that's perhaps exaggerating but it is in a  at the moment in a confined locality, we know where it is, it's not actually here and 
Yes, yes I know 
I mean shouldn't we be abreast of what's happening because we 
Well I 
Want to know if it's spreading, if it's getting worse.
I like to listen to the news, but yesterday it just gave me a headache.
I listened, I like to listen to the radio programmes.
mhm
And I just shut it off, I said I can't take any more, and I'm not a teenager, I'm not a young mum.
I was a teenager in the last war growing up.
Yes well I 
And in my early twenties 
I did actually quote about one of the youngsters yesterday making the point about you know, it's all on television, there's too much of it, I mean it wasn't actually quite as blatant a comment as that, the point is made was while it's on every channel, all the time 
Yes, there's no respite at all.
I know I'm sorry for a war having to break out, and the youngsters out there having to risk their lives, I mean God forbid we got another war.
But should we then ignore it, or even 
No 
Appear to be partially ignoring it 
There's no need to ignore it, just updates every hour I think is quite sufficient, and let's get back to some other programmes.
Okay Lilian thank you very much indeed 
Thank you 
For your call, we do have quite a number of callers on the line at the moment, if you could just be patient with us, because the time now is half past twelve.
And welcome back to the lunch time phone in, I'm John Simpson here now for another twenty eight minutes, and if you want to join in the discussion you can ring on Oxford three double one, one double one.
We are, as you probably gathered if you've been with us, talking about the, the Gulf conflict.
We've been talking about the amount of coverage on television and we do have one or two more callers on the same subject, but if you want to broaden the discussion out to other aspects of what's going on in the Gulf, do feel free.
We'll go then to Milton Keynes and Bertrand, hello Bertrand.
Hello John erm firstly I would sympathise with those that erm have been complaining about television programmes, although I erm didn't watch a great deal of television yesterday, I was listening to Radio Oxford actually, but erm from erm Ceefax I noticed that the Neighbours was broadcast twice.
mhm So 
erm That seems to me a little bit odd that that has to be put on twice to the erm exclusion of other programmes.
I'm just  you're just making me think actually because I saw in one of the papers this morning erm a headline, if I can find it, it said something to the effect that — yes here it is, in the Independent, it says ‘TV soaps are first to survive rescheduling’ and it goes on to tell us that the British television schedules as we all know were the first casualties of war in the Gulf except for the nation's daily diet of Australian soap.
So erm yes, I'm just trying to scan down to see exactly what happened, but erm it was actually erm as we all know, a major reorganisation of television schedules.
Are you surprised that it's the soaps that survive?
erm Well not really because erm I believe erm that one was erm one of a few that survived at the erm time of the change of the erm Prime Minister.
mhm Now why do you think this is?
I don't know erm possibly it is something to do with policy, actually that wasn't what I was  the main thing I was ringing about.
Okay, well it's an interesting point anyway.
I was erm ringing about the erm absence of the Iraqi airforce.
Yes.
erm And we've already lost planes in the erm war so far, and we have only a limited number there, while going back to the last world war 
mhm 
Planes were being lost and replaced only when the aircraft production was stepped up.
Yes.
And it takes  it must take a lot longer to produce a plane like the Tornado and  a Spitfire or a Lancaster in erm the days of erm nineteen forty three 
Well they're certainly more sophisticated 
After about four years war.
Yes, they're more sophisticated now aren't they?
Yes they're more sophisticated, and what I'm concerned about is whether we have the right back up to be able to sustain a war erm there  at present the war is more like a blitzkrieg which the Germans used at the start of the second world war
mhm
Now with the absence of the Iraqi air force, are they being held back until we have lost sufficient aircraft, and with no back up aircraft, and erm then we will  our erm airforce and our land forces will be under attack from the Iraqis and the war will be a prolonged war.
mhm
Because we must remember that Iraq has already had an eight years war and they're used to a war, they used to withstanding a war and it was the only reason that Britain survived in the last world war because it could withstand attack, and wait and wait until they were ready to counter attack.
Yes, I mean several points that you've raised, and these are things that I've picked up from the newspapers and I'll make the point, I'm no expert but I  as I understand it, the allied erm forces have erm substantially greater number of aircraft in the area than the Iraqi airforce had, so that's one point.
So, you know, if you're going to talk in terms of losses, then it does suggest, heaven forbid that the allies have got to lose a tremendous number of aircraft before the equation sort of balances.
Yes but erm it's not only losing the aircraft, it's losing the air crews as well 
Oh absolutely, yes I'm not arguing about that, and as I said, heaven forbid that should happen, erm another point I did pick up from one report was that in the eight years war, and you're quite right, the Iraqis are battle hardened, but the Iranian air force apparently couldn't bomb Iraq to any great consequence except for the first few weeks of the conflict.
There  I mean there was nothing like the bombing that's been going on, well, at least that's what we're told, the bombing that's been going on over the last twenty four, forty eight hours of Baghdad for instance.
So I think the two don't equate in that respect, I think where they may equate, and again I'm no expert, may equate when it comes to the ground forces 
Yes 
I think that's  is that not the thing that's worrying you, is that the question mark in your mind as well?
Well, one thing I think with our attack at present, they're attacking erm selected targets and that, and the Iraqi people are not suffering from that, so they are able to keep going, they're not being damaged themselves.
So what are you suggesting, are you suggesting that they should be bombing the general population?
No, I'm not suggesting it, but erm I think it's one thing that erm will prolong the war.
Well I 
Because the determination of the people erm is erm still great to erm win their war from their point of view, as a gentleman earlier was saying that erm had erm had Arabic experience.
mhm Well I mean this obviously is a decision is it not for the military commanders?
Oh of course, yes yes 
Who can actually fight the war, and I'm just wondering, politically is it going to be a good idea to knowingly, not necessarily aim at the  general population, but in the process of taking out the targets, extend it to the general population, well what do you think of that?
Well of course that was erm supposedly one of the greatest mistakes of the last world war was when the erm the erm German Air Force was switched from attacking the erm Royal Air Force, and Air Force stations and attacking erm the targets in London.
Although there were a great number of casualties in London, the erm will of the people still remained constant to win the war 
Okay well 
And it gave the Air Force a chance to regroup.
It does at the moment according to the reports,everything is aimed at the control and the command network and also and obviously at the military targets, so we'll just have to wait and see 
Yes 
Thank you for your call 
Right you are, thank you.
Bye bye, that's Bertrand from erm Milton Keynes.
We go to Headington now and George, hello George.
Hello.
And your point please?
Yes, I should like to bring in erm support about the first lady about the  her child, but actually I've more agreement with the last woman speaker when she was saying there was too much saturation about the Gulf.
I mean I'm speaking as a political animal because I watch all the television, I mean I take my wireless to bed and listen to the  actually I was listening to the wireless at erm half past eleven when they started it, so I'm not speaking as a person that sort of doesn't watch or listen to the Gulf business, but I think it's erm on too much.
You think it's too much but you think there should be coverage nonetheless?
Oh it should be covered definitely, I mean I watch  I mean you've got all the extended programmes, I mean last night I watched the nine o'clock news until ten o'clock and then the one o'clock news at dinner time until two and, and erm various things, I mean I think it's quite enough myself, I mean I'm speaking as an ex-soldier at seventy years old, and I think well I don't think really that people necessarily want to hear it all, even the people who've got people over there.
mhm
I mean as regards I agree with the woman when she was saying about she wanted to tell her husband about what happens when he comes home from work, but I think  she won't  need all those bulletins to tell him what's happening, she can tell him the latest bulletin before he comes in the door, couldn't she?
Okay, erm I mean you say about even people who've got members of their family over there, I mean I know that if it was me, I would want to know what was going on.
I can only speak for myself, okay?
Yes I know, but I mean you're just speaking of yourself but I mean 
Yes but I'm saying if I had a member of my family there, I would definitely want to know what was going on.
I  obviously I  from what was coming out you probably couldn't work out very much to help you but nonetheless I know that I would want to do that as a person.
Yes but I mean it's like the lady said, I mean you get the same thing all the time.
Yes, but I  well yes I mean this is a judgement each of us has to make erm it's a judgement if you've got a member of your family involved in this, then obviously your attitude is going to be totally different from the rest of us that aren't.
But even if we're not involved directly, I mean are you saying then that we perhaps put it to one side, it's happening somewhere else?
No, no I'm not saying, I'm just talking about the word saturation.
Okay.
At the .
Right, okay, George thanks for making the point.
Bye bye.
Okay, bye, that's George from Headington.
I'm going to change subjects now, but if you want to come back to the Gulf, do feel free, the lines are open on three double one, one double one, but I  in the meantime we'll take a couple of calls on different subjects erm let's go to June from Shillingford, hello June.
Hello erm I couldn't get on the line yesterday, so I thought I'd try and ring in today.
It's with the opening  regarding the opening of the M forty 
Yes.
I understand that there are about five hundred people were actually invited to the ceremony, so obviously this means that about two or three hundred cars were arriving.
I want to know, where did all these people come from then, and why so many?
erm I
Surely erm they weren't all connected with the M forty, and I expect possibly others whom should have been invited were overlooked.
The main reason, main thing is presuming that there must have been refreshments for all these people, probably  might have been just a buffet or cup of coffee, or I expect there was probably a lunch laid on, I want to know who footed the bill for the lunch?
Right erm 
I suppose it was the poor tax payer?
I can tell you erm from  although I wasn't actually there 
mhm 
I can tell you that in fact erm the erm guests and the members of the press were actually, they actually met at a point in Bicester 
mhm 
For a reception there and they actually went by coach to the opening ceremony 
On the motorway 
mhm 
They then  after the opening they returned to erm the erm theatre in Bicester 
mhm 
And I understand that there was a reception which erm in  as far as I'm aware was actually erm organised and financed by the contractors who were building the motorway.
Ah that's not so bad then, I thought perhaps the poor taxpayer was going to have to foot the bill.
I  yes, I mean it did make  I did actually see a press release erm 
Oh I didn't see that.
Well no you wouldn't but erm I mean we, we obviously do receive press releases 
Yes 
To tell us things are happening and certainly on the press release it made erm  it was there in black and white to say that 
Oh well that's good enough then, I thought perhaps if the taxpayer had to pay, I wouldn't be very pleased 
I think one or two other people may have the same comment to make if that was the case erm 
Ah, yes 
And so as I understand it that's the situation 
Yes I suppose it's not taxpayer now, what do we call them now — poll, poll tax payers or  I suppose they are still tax payers though.
Yes, it's  it's either the Community Charge 
Yes, oh yes, I never thought of that 
Or more likely it could be erm from your income tax, your inland revenue so it's 
Yes, yes oh, oh that's alright then, you've cleared one query up in my mind.
Thank you very much indeed 
Well can I just ask you one quick question?
Oh dear, what?
Will you be using the M forty now it's open?
erm
Do you think it's a good thing?
Well yes if it's to get to  from A to B quickly, yes and stop having to go through all the little villages and clutter that up 
mhm 
erm I don't personally like motorways, I would  I'm terrified of the M twenty five, I'd rather go the long way round I'm afraid, but 
Well fortunately at the moment, the traffic on the M forty, well certainly yesterday was nothing like the M twenty five although it was reasonably busy and there's every expectation it will increase over the coming weeks.
Yes, yes I use the M four quite a bit and I suppose I'm so used to that I don't mind it.
Okay, thanks very much for the call and raising the question 
Okay much obliged, thank you, bye.
So that was erm June from Shillingford.
We're going to Faringdon now to meet Jean — hello Jean.
Hello John, erm could you tell me when the Social Services are being asked to make cuts and charge handicapped people and the elderly two fifty a day to attend day centres, and other departments are being asked to make cuts.
mhm
How can the Oxfordshire County Council justify spending three hundred and twenty thousand pound to buy Medley boat station in Port Meadow?
Ah, good question.
Now first of all let's get our facts absolutely right erm the Social Services department is run by the County Council 
mhm 
In fact the Council that have put up the money to buy Medley boat station was in fact the Oxford City Council, so it is actually slightly different 
Right, yes 
In as much that erm it comes out of a different purse 
mhm 
And if you live in Faringdon then erm presumably you didn't contribute to the money that was spent by the City Council on the Medley boat station.
mhm
Had you been living in Oxford and asking the same question I think well then it's erm you know, it's obviously a very valid question.
Yes well I think so.
erm I mean it's a  surely it's a political decision is it not, I mean there's been a lot of controversy as you  I'm sure are well aware about the Medley boat station?
erm Well I don't know an awful lot about it no.
Well it's been a discussion — if we can put it that way that's been going on more or less throughout the nineteen eighties 
mhm 
Because the then owner erm in the view of the Council was exceeding the terms of his occupation and he was increasingly encroaching on Port Meadow.
There as you probably know are various groups who feel that they, ought to erm, they ought to take a stand because they felt that Port Meadow actually  the character of Port Meadow was changing and ultimately the Council I think agreed with them, that something should be done and this was the action that was taken.
mhm Yes but surely I mean when the Council has been asked not to overspend.
mhm
erm How can they justify spending three hundred and twenty thousand pounds?
erm is it a question of priorities, is it a political 
Yes I think it is 
A  political priorities?
I think it's a question of priorities yes.
Okay well I tell you what, look if you'd like to stay on the line, I'm obviously not exactly floundering but I haven't got an answer off pat 
No, no 
I didn't make the decision 
No, no, no.
What I can do is bring you someone now on the line who can tell us exactly why that decision was made and exactly why that money was spent in the way it was because we've been joined by Councillor John Power.
erm Mr Power thank you for joining us.
Thank you.
Would you like to answer the question, why was it felt necessary to spend three hundred and twenty thousand when other areas of government  local council expenditure is in dire need of extra cash?
Well the first thing is that the City Council is charged with the defence of common land that  and Port Meadow is a piece of common land that's been in the possession of the people of Oxford and Oxfordshire and of England for over a thousand years.
And it's our intention that that land should remain for our children's children's children, that's the first point.
And we had a great deal of commercial encroachment that took place on it in quite illegally and unauthorised manner with Medley boat station expanding on to the banks, and the City Council have been working since nineteen seventy four would you believe, to try and end that and restore that land to common land again.
So the council were faced  were having to take a legal action because there was a whole claims that because the land was so old, nobody knew who technically owned it and it wasn't registered as we owning it until nineteen sixty six, there was legal disputes about that.
And the advice that we got was that if we wanted to establish proper ownership and control of that land again, we would have to seek a High Court action, possibly the House of Lords as well, and that total cost would be in the region of a quarter of a million pounds in legal costs, and we also then stood the, well risk of losing the case as well, so we could have spent two hundred and fifty thousand pounds for nothing.
The council agreed to buy the station for — it's about three hundred and twenty five thousand, but I want to make this point, that it isn't their intention to close the boat station.
It's their intention to leave the boat station there, but as a boat hiring station only, and to let  rent that to somebody, not to have boat building enterprises, not to have a car park, not to have a chandlery and so on which was put there by the person whose  who used to own it, and we will recoup all of that money from renting that boat station so it can be run as a boat hiring station again, and from three or four of the moorings that are  will have been there for a long time, with proper permission.
So in the long run, first of all we saved ourselves an initial risk outlay of a quarter of a million pounds on legal fees, the second thing is that we now have that common land back under control, and within ten years we will recoup all of that money.
Okay, let me bring Jean back in, your comments to that then Jean — that's the answer.
Well, not an awful lot really  I mean, you know, you, you can't win, as I say, it just seemed wrong that you know when people ask  being asked to make cuts and make these charges that that amount of money should be spent on something else 
But, as Mr Powers just explained erm I mean, the decision was taken on  in, in view of the fact that it was actually going to save them legal fees 
Yes 
And that ultimately they will actually 
Yes, yes 
Recoup the money 
That takes time 
Does that not satisfy you?
Well in a way yes, but erm in another way no, I'm sorry  okay 
Okay right 
Right, thank you, right 
Okay Jean thank you for raising the point.
John Power if you'd like to stay on the line just a moment, because I've got another gentleman who wants to actually talk about that, it's Les erm calling from Oxford — hello Les.
Hello John.
Would you like to make your point please.
Well I've heard quite a lot of it so why I should bring the subject up then everyone started talking about it.
mhm
Well it is three hundred and twenty thousand pound that they're paying to this person that should not have been there in the first place, he walked on there, he built places there without planning permission and I think if the council had played their cards right, they could have got him off without paying out this three hundred twenty thousand pound.
They must have got a piggy bank somewhere.
So how do you think 
They keep telling us about this poll tax, they've got to cut the staff  and then they decide that they're going to give this man this money.
All they could have said to him ‘get off’.
Yes but I mean how  you say if they'd played their cards right, but are you saying just go down there and say to him ‘get off?’
They should have got the solicitors in and said ‘look you've no rights to have been here, you walked on this common land without any permission at all, you built these places without  you've got cars park and everything’, and now I listen to the story where the council says they're going to run it etc. etc and etc, well what the people want, they want it cleared up, they want it back to where it was, we don't want somebody running another business out there, this is the idea of getting him off.
Okay, well 
To clear it up 
Okay well hang on just a second then because John Power, Councillor John Power is on the other line, let's bring him back into that.
There you've heard allegations from Les, you should have gone down there and said to him ‘get off.’
Well I agree with that but I want to make a few points first of all, because poll tax was tangled up with this.
May I make the point that this money was committed as part of a contingency fund in the budget before poll tax came in  right?
So it came out of a budget when we were all ratepayers, it didn't come out of poll tax payers' budgets okay?
It was  it's a previous budget decision, I want to make that point, it was made before the last budget, and this has been a sort of  a year of negotiations, that's the first point and 
Okay, but it  I mean having said that, it did actually come from the pockets of all the people who are resident in the city 
It  yes, but it's not
Yes 
Tied up with poll tax, it was done before poll tax was erm  it's only just been announced because there's been a lot of negotiations going on, but the figure was committed before poll tax came into being — right?
Good, yes thanks for clearing that.
That's the first point, the second point is that on the question of planning, yes he did things without planning permission, and we refused those things without planning permission and we sought enforcement notices against him.
He went to appeal, that went to a public enquiry, and the public enquiry upheld his right to do it; the public enquiry was hosted by the department of the environment, so we lost that on planning grounds.
The next case we turned to was the question of ownership of the meadow; I've explained the confusion and the complications about ownership of the meadow because it  nobody had bothered to register it until nineteen sixty six.
And as the boat station had been there before nineteen sixty six, probably a hundred years before nineteen sixty six, it was then claimed that this person had adverse possession, which in short, is squatter's rights.
And that is what we had to legally challenge in the courts.
On the last point that Les makes, I want to ensure him about this; that when Horton run that boat business, that was a water-based business, it ran on the basis there were floats in the river and you stepped on to the float and you got onto a boat.
It didn't operate from the bank, and it's the intention of the council to turn it back into a water-based boat hiring business so there will be nothing along the bank at all.
Les — your last comment?
Well I would  the only thing I can say in this is this cash, I know they said they'd get it  got in the piggy bank before the poll tax, but as they keep shouting about they've got to put the poll tax up, they've got no money, they  they're putting the staff off and one thing and another.
I think they could have kept that money for that purpose what they want now, not to throw it across there.
But it was  I mean you have to admit erm and I'm  I'll bring Mr Power in and let him speak for himself, but you have to admit that it  from what we've just heard, it started in nineteen seventy four, it's been going on a long time.
Oh yes, I know all that 
And, and 
I mean I used, I used to go out there picking moon daisies, years ago.
I know all about Port Meadow.
Yes, but I mean erm excuse me erm there are a lot of people who have been saying for a long time, the council are dragging their heels and they're not doing anything.
Now they've done something, you're not satisfied.
Well now, what they've done something which I think if there  as I said to you in the first place, if they'd have run their cards  played their cards right, they could have said to that fellow ‘look you've got no rights to be here, we never gave you planning’what's wrong with this planning people, they step here and they step there, there's people do things without planning permission, they do nothing at all about it, if I was to go and stick something up in my front garden, they'd come along and say ‘hey,.’
Well 
What is wrong with the planning people?
Well, Mr Power?
Well, I mean actually, we wouldn't say that to him if he stuck something up in his front garden, that's the reality; people imagine that we have powers that we don't have.
May I make the point to Les, and it's true, it is not illegal to do things without planning permission 
It isn't, you can put anything up you like, the only illegality is not applying after you've done it, and when you apply after you've done it, all we can do is consider the planning reasons, not the fact that you did it without permission.
And if we did  if we were to consider that you  we'd refuse you on the grounds that it was done without permission, you'd have a perfect legitimate right to appeal above our heads and the Department of the Environment would rule against you  could rule against us as they did with Mr Crendon 
And last but not least on these issues of planning which I think is very important, I'm glad to get the opportunity to put this thing over to people; I very much regret the way that planning laws have been weakened so that the local authorities don't have the power they used to have.
We now reach the impossible position where if somebody goes to appeal against us and they win, they can claim costs against us, and we actually have that now, we've got fairly large sums of cost hanging against the council, so if  I'd like to ask Les to erm  I'd like to have his support for stronger planning laws, then we could do the things that he says we ought to do.
So from what you've just said, you've got to be very careful when you go to enquiry appeal, that you are actually going to win, because otherwise you could end up erm costing even more money on the Community Charge?
Well we lost sixty thousand pounds on the British Rail Station enquiry for example 
Okay, I think that's erm a good example, thank you very much for joining us this morning.
Thank you John.
That's John Power, Councillor John Power as you heard talking there about the Medley boat station.
Thanks also to Les for his point of view on that.
erm Let's go to Ron — hello Ron.
Hello John.
Where are you calling from?
I'm calling from Oxford.
Whereabouts?
erm In the city.
Right, and what's the point you want to raise?
Well erm I'm very concerned about the congestion of traffic at the top of erm Morrell Avenue, on the erm junction of the roundabout with Warneford Lane.
Now there are cars parked right the way up and even on to the roundabout, and I think a lot of these erm persons erm with the cars are probably from the Polytechnic.
But the point that I want to make is that there is a bus stop either side of erm  well, one in Morrell Avenue and one in erm  just in the junction of Warneford Lane.
Yes.
Now when the buses pull up there, they've got to double park and it completely blocks the road, I mean you've either got to swing right round the bus on the wrong side of the road and you know you could easily  run into something coming the other way.
mhm
And erm the erm  your view is completely blocked altogether when you're coming up to that roundabout, as you know they come up from erm Southfield Road and Divinity Road which comes up on to that roundabout, and erm I think it's very very dangerous.
Yes, well it certainly doesn't sound very satisfactory does it?
Well it's not because as I say, they actually park right on to the roundabout.
Have you drawn the attention  this problem to the police?
Well I haven't at the moment, but I thought I'd like to air the view first with you.
Yes, I'm sure there are lots of people listening who live or even travel through that area 
That's right 
So, what I would suggest is that you certainly have a word with the police and draw their attention to it and if anybody listening has parked their car there, do please consider just how safe it is where you're parking and think of other people.
Well that is true because as I say, I think it is very very dangerous there.
Okay Ron, thank you for raising that 
Yes, thank you very much John.
I'm going to move on because I want to get one more call in and that's Pat from Kidlington — hello Pat.
Oh good morning.
Well first of all I want to thank you John for your programme, we really have enjoyed it and we're very sorry this is your last day.
Oh, well that's very kind of you , you've been checking up haven't you, counting off the days on the calendar.
Almost that, and I want to say that I have some sympathy for the lady who has children and just couldn't entertain them for the day.
erm I enlisted in the Air Force December thirty nine, and I had six and a half years taken out of my life for helping with the war effort, and hopefully my sons and my grandsons will not have to go into another war.
mhm
And could I leave you with a poem?
I won't read it all out, but it was given to me before I went into the Air Force.
Right, you've got thirty seconds.
Right ‘Thou standest on the threshold of days which are unknown, Thou standest at the gate where your path's unmapped and shown, But God himself is with thee, thy Saviour keep a friend, And he will not forsake thee nor leave thee 'till the end, Thou pausest on the threshold, enfolded lies a year, But with God's arms beneath thee, there is no cause to fear.
Though shadowed days or sunlit, what 'ere the year may bring, This fact may be thy comfort, God reigns in everything.
And to all those people who have sons out there, and daughters out there, I say ‘God Bless You All’.
Thanks very much indeed Pat, and erm that brings me to the end of the lunch time phone in, in fact, the end of my stint on the lunch time phone in, because on Monday Bill will be back; Bill Heine, so you'll be able to join him just after the twelve o'clock news.
But I've enjoyed being here, I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have, and I look forward to the next time that I'm sitting in the hot seat; until then, from me, goodbye.
Hello and welcome to the programme.
Today we'll be talking about all those guarantees that you've seen when you bought your car and when you bought your refrigerator and when you've bought almost anything nowadays, because people are being spoiled for choice on guarantees it seems.
But, what are the problems with guarantees?
Are they really worth the amount of paper that's expended on them?
Well, I'm joined by a few people who can give you some clues on guarantees.
First of all, Roy Hill, whose the Deputy Trading Standards Officer for Oxfordshire County Council, and also John Collinswood, who is from the Mechanical Breakdown Insurance Company in Thame.
Roy, welcome to the programme.
What are some of the major problems with the guarantees that we're offered?
I think one of the biggest problems at the moment, Bill, is the hard sell on extended warranties and on secondhand cars.
If you go to buy a secondhand car these days they invariably try to sell you a guarantee or a warranty on it.
You might pay anything from twenty or thirty pounds to two hundred pounds for this guarantee.
When you look at the small print, most of the items that are going to go wrong are excluded, and people get very upset and complain to our department when they can't get it book right.
Well, like for instance what about these exclusions clauses.
What do they cover?
Well a fairly typical one excludes anything which is faulty as a result of negligence or bad workmanship.
If the crank shaft goes on a car after twenty thousand miles, is it a defect — mechanical defect — covered by the guarantee, or was it faulty workmanship by the person who put it into the car?
And you as the poor customer are going to have to argue the toss as to whether it's a defect or faulty workmanship, so the chances are you won't be able to claim.
We've got a typical example of that at the moment.
Somebody paid a hundred and eighty pounds for an extended warranty on a new vehicle.
The crank shaft thrust washers have gone, admittedly after a fairly high mileage, but he thought it was covered by his guarantee — it isn't.
They're saying it's wear and tear and he'll have to pay himself.
But but these guarantees, I mean what are the upsides of them, what are the good points of them?
Well I think some of the manufacturers' guarantees, certainly on motor cars, erm are reasonable and you can expect to rely on them and get things put right.
I think the biggest problem is these extended guarantees and the ones that you pay that little bit extra for, thinking you've got extra cover that you wouldn't normally have.
In many cases you are not getting extra cover at all.
Well then you're suggesting there's and element of conning going on here?
If I was cynical, Bill, I'd say it's a good way of making a bit of extra money, and that was confirmed at a meeting I went to of motor traders the other day.
They thought they really weren't very much, but they were a good selling point.
Why are they a good selling point?
Because people have high expectations?
I think if you go and buy a secondhand car erm it's often a big investment, two, three, four, five thousand pounds or even more.
If somebody's saying to you do you want our guarantee — it's fifty pounds, or it's a hundred pounds — if you're spending that sort of money you'll probably pay out for it and you'll think you're covered for all sorts of things that might go wrong.
If you take that home and read the small print, you'll find you're probably not covered for the very things that are going to go wrong.
mhm Well I'm joined by John Collinswood.
Hello John.
Hello.
Hello.
Now you're over there with a group in Thame, and it's the Mechanical Breakdown Insurance.
That's correct, that's right.
If I can jump in straightaway 
Indeed.
I've got a bit of a conflict of interest here straightaway because the actual case that Roy is talking about is actually my brother and I at this moment have been complaining to the Lloyds Policy Unit in respect of erm this particular policy, because the company that was actually trading went into liquidation.
It was fully underwritten by Lloyds and the claim has been unfairly rejected in my personal opinion.
erm I've arranged for an independent assessor to view this vehicle, and the view of that independent assessor is this is a straightforward claim against the insurance company, and I at the moment am pursuing that, so it's a little bit of a conflict of interest that one, but that does give you some background on that particular case.
Yes, indeed.
erm well it it seems like there are problems with these kinds of guarantees.
What problems do you find with them?
Well I think some of the big problems  if we can clarify mechanical breakdown insurance.
Now it is actually mechanical breakdown insurance.
It's called warranty and guarantee throughout the trade and throughout the general public, but its correct name is mechanical breakdown insurance.
It is an insurance contract which covers a number of items against mechanical failure.
erm if people don't actually read the policies erm they won't be fully aware of what they're being offered.
It's not erm a carte blanche situation where with anything that goes wrong with the vehicle will be covered by the policy, it is an insurance contract for which specific liabilities are covered.
erm but that's the main point that I would  I would try and get across.
Obviously, as we've gone along 
But but hold on, could I jump in there because 
Yes, certainly.
even if people do read these contracts, or these warranties, or these extended service contracts, they might not know what they're buying even if it's read to them, because it's in a particular kind of jargon.
Right.
If I can clarify that, our policies  we've been going since nineteen eighty three, and all our policies are in full print, which are readable.
In fact, we've had a couple of accolades from English reading teachers to the effect that erm the policy is so easy to understand.
We deliberately avoid using insurance jargon at all.
In fact, if you took the trouble to read through the policy you would see it's very understandable.
The other point I would make is that our company policy is that we write to every policy holder when we receive their policy.
We ask them to read the policy, we explain bits in the booklet, we ask them to telephone us if there's anything they're not happy with or they're unsure about and we will clarify that, and also we do give them fourteen days in which to cancel, so if if  once they've actually got the policy, if they're not happy with it, or they're not happy with the answers that we give, then they're more than happy  we're more than happy to refund.
John, could I just come in there.
Roy Hill.
Certainly, Roy.
Sorry about that.
It's  just to pick you up on a couple of points.
Right.
Your policy is not very different to many others.
I mean let me not allege that you're one of the worst, but you say ‘Dear Motorists, erm may we congratulate you on the acquisition of your new vehicle.
We should advise you that we've endeavoured to provide the best possible cover for the most competitive premium.’
Mjc That's right.
Then if you run through it, this particular one, Plan Two — maximum liability two hundred pounds.
That's probably a set of tyres or something -it's not a great deal of money in this day and age -but then failure is limited to actual breakage, wear and tear is excluded, it doesn't cover the cost of working materials such as gaskets, if the vehicle has been modified in any way it's excluded, it excludes any personal injury resulting from the breakdown, it covers  erm the schedule is invalid if you have not covered the servicing aspects on page ten, the servicing aspects on page ten require you within ten days or two hundred and fifty miles of three thousand miles intervals — most cars now are six thousand mile intervals — to have the oil changed, so there's a built-in additional service, and so it goes on.
Right.
erm in other words, what I'm really saying is, with all these exclusions, what included?
Right.
Okay, let's  let's try and clarify a few points as we go along.
The first thing you  we do a range of policies and you've picked one of our smaller ones.
We do actually cover up to a thousand pounds parts and labour with a wide range of cover across the board.
That really sort of I mean obviously depending on what you pay  I mean the policies can vary from twenty five pounds up to four hundred pounds.
Now obviously, depending on the premium that's being paid, depends on a.
the period of cover erm and the amount of payout and obviously the parts that are actually covered.
But, John, put yourself in the customer's shoes, and my wife's one of your customers.
She bought a secondhand car and was given this warranty with it.
Now she came away thinking I've got this secondhand car and they've given me a warranty.
We know it's an insurance, but they think it's a warranty.
Now when you read through it, she's not covered for anything.
Right.
So it's a bit of a sales gimmick, isn't it?
erm no I wouldn't agree with that, put it  has your wife received the letter from us?
erm I can't remember now, she bought the car two or three ago.
Oh, if it was bought two or three years ago, well I  well obviously I couldn't say, but obviously they have the option to read the policy at that point.
If your wife is unhappy, now it may well have been that a better policy could have been put on the vehicle.
Now at that point, when she received the letter and read the policy, erm we could have given her a better cover if it applied to that particular vehicle.
But my point is the customer doesn't know what they've got.
I mean in the excitement of buying a car you're not going to read the small print, you're not going to read the little bit that says you must have the oil changed every three thousand miles and unless you do it within two hundred and fifty miles of that  and not only that, you must send evidence of the service by recorded delivery to you.
That's very onerous.
Right, let's clarify a point here.
First of all that the Plan Two policy there is for vehicles over five years, sixty thousand miles.
Now our company policy is a vehicle up to the or below five years and sixty thousand miles, we agree on manufacturer's servicing.
It is a contract of insurance and the policy holder does have a part to play by maintaining the vehicle.
Now obviously up to five years, sixty thousand, we agree manufacturers' recommendations.
When you get to vehicles over and above that, we run into problems where people that have 
Sorry to butt in again, but I don't think that's quite right, because this Plan Two, five years and sixty thousand miles, refers to manufacturer's warranty, which might still be valid, and this supplements it.
So this is not intended for five years old, it actually refers to new vehicles.
No, that policy you've got there relates to used vehicles and what I'm saying this that particular policy can be issued on vehicles above five years and sixty thousand miles.
erm Generally, below five years sixty thousand miles, we have policies which give manufacturer's servicing, and obviously erm the policy holder does have a part to play in doing that.
But if I can move on just for a second, erm when you get over and above that, we have problems where people that are purchasing those sort of vehicles cannot afford, with the best will in the world, to take them in to the main agents and have a full service, although they should do, but if you can't afford to do that  and these are the problems that we had, so we actually changed that.
Instead of manufacturer's servicing it's just an oil change and level check, that's all it is, every three months, three thousand miles, because bearing in mind that these vehicles will be over five years and sixty thousand miles it's less onerous to the customer to have that than to be forced into having a manufacturer service which they probably can't afford.
Yes, but what are you actually going to pay out for, John.
I mean everything's excluded as far as I can see.
Well I think that's a very unfair statement to make.
You've got the policy in front of you and obviously, as I have said, that is one of our smaller plans anyway.
erm but obviously we do cover the parts that are listed on pages two and three of all of our booklets, and depending on the premium that's paid depends on the coverage issues.
You cover the parts listed on pages two and three, which is engine, gearbox, erm differential, prop shaft, brakes, electrical, etc., but that's qualified by the fact that you don't cover any parts which were faulty at the time of purchase, or inherent faults at the time of purchase,
Right, let me 
in other words on the way, and you exclude negligence or bad workmanship.
So if a piston ring breaks, then the chances are it's somebody's negligence along the way and it's not a fault in the  or mechanical breakdown.
erm No, I can't agree with either of those statements in fairness.
What's actually covered on the policy there  I mean obviously if if you get  let's take the first point as regards the  if the vehicle isn't right from the day of purchase, then obviously the redress is with the dealer obviously erm I mean we're all aware of that situation, and obviously the idea of the policy is not to take away the dealer's liability  the dealer's liability remains, as you would know.
This is to give extra protection over and above that.
What's the extra protection it gives?
Well obviously if if you  the normal rule of thumb, as I'm led to believe, is that if you buy a used  a vehicle from a used car dealer, you're given three months, three thousand miles, in which you can  you can take complaints back.
Obviously these policies are not for three months, three thousand miles, they are for a much longer period than that, and obviously if people do have problems then that's what we're here for.
Yes, but your normal sale of goods rights, John, say that if the vehicle isn't in reasonable condition, bearing in mind it's age, previous history, price paid, then you have a claim under the Sale of Goods Act, so where are you taking us beyond that?
Well, as I am saying, that obviously is the liability that the dealer has, because obviously he's sold the goods to the purchaser.
What I'm saying is obviously this is over and above that.
It doesn't supersede that in any way, and obviously if people do run into problems  I mean normally a major problem in the first three months or three thousand miles is taken back to the dealer anyway.
Over and above that, obviously this is where the advantage to the policy holder comes in because obviously if they get a gearbox problem that's going to cost, say, a hundred and eighty pounds in six months time, they're not going to be able to go back to the dealer and say look I want you to put this right for me, because obviously it is outside the statutory guarantee.
But that poor customer, John — I am sorry to keep going back to you on it, I'm just seeking clarification — that poor customer has got to prove to your satisfaction that it's a mechanical breakdown and not a result of what they've done to it or somebody's, at any time, negligence in assembly.
And that's very difficult to do.
If we take your point as far as the erm erm breakage of a piston ring is concerned.
If there is a vehicle on risk with us and a piston ring breaks, regardless of the reason we coverage the breakage of a component and therefore we would  we would cover the cost of the replacement rings and the labour to do so.
Yes, I think you're drawing a distinction between what you do in practice and what you're booklet says, so I am talking about the letter of your booklet and what you do in practice might be a lot better.
I think you've got to  you've got to accept that it is a legally binding contract, all of the policies, and I think you have to realise that in any arrangement that you make erm where there is a degree of legality, there has to be parameters put down.
But obviously on those parameters you can't have hard and fast rules for each vehicle.
For example, what might apply erm on a one year old vehicle that's done ten thousand miles, might not apply on a vehicle that's done a hundred thousand miles and is ten years old.
I fully accept that, but let me throw it back at you and say you, through your brother, are arguing about the small print on an extended warranty.
Not one of ours, I hasten to add.
I accept that.
But you've just argued my case for me, haven't you?
In what way?
In that you've got a difficulty with an extended warranty.
You're arguing the toss over the small print as to whether or not it's covered.
It's  no, no 
It is a mechanical breakdown.
You've had to go to a specialist engineer in support of your case and to argue your case, and you're still arguing over it.
If I can clarify two things there first of all.
This as far as  this is my personal opinion as far as that claim is concerned, that that is totally and utterly valid.
The fact that the company that sold the policy has gone into liquidation erm claims handlers have been put in who, in my opinion, and it is my personal opinion, are are not necessarily doing the job as well.
What I would say  this is a very very rare event in effect erm for this to happen erm and normally when the claims handlers do come into a situation like that it's handled perfectly properly.
erm so I don't think it's fair to erm to bring that one in really.
Well I'm a bit worried when people are buying these guarantees and someone goes into liquidation, like for instance if you buy an extended warranty then usually dealers tie up with one particular broker specialising in that form of insurance, and  and if that particular dealer — the car dealer — gets the insurance and it's in his or her name 
Right.
and it's not in the name of the individual, and that car dealer goes into liquidation, then the people — the motorist — are left with a guarantee that is is worthless.
I don't understand that because the policies that are sold today are sold between the policy holder and the actual insurance company.
If I can clarify a few points.
erm The Department of Trade and Industry stepped into this business about ten years ago and because there was a situation where there was no re-insurance, but when the company that was actually selling the policy when into liquidation erm there was no redress for the policy holder.
Now all policies are fully underwritten by a Department of Trade approved insurer and that is compulsory on this line of business, so should the  should the company go erm into liquidation then the insurance company will take over the handling of those claims erm so that really doesn't apply any more.
Well here's the Director General of Fair Trading, and this is someone who's had quite a bit of experience on this, Sir Gordon Borey and he says that motorists should ensure that any cover they buy is in the form of an individual insurance policy in their name.
If it is not, and the garage or other body running the extended warranty scheme goes out of business, the warranty will be worth no more than the paper it is written on.
I would agree with that, but I can't  I can't envisage circumstances where dealers are actually using  if they're insuring their own  their own mechanical breakdown insurance, then yes obviously, if that company goes into liquidation then obviously they have no redress which is obviously why it's important than anybody buying a vehicle should make sure that it's fully underwritten by a Department of Trade approved insurer.
Now if they ensure that, should the garage go into liquidation, or albeit the warranty company, then they are fully covered by the insurance company.
I think the  sorry, Bill, the erm confusion arises because we're talking about warranties and insurance and most people buying a car, getting extended insurance or one of these insurance schemes, will assume it's warranty, but there's no protection for somebody issuing a warranty going out of business.
There is protection through the insurance companies and Lloyds for covering an insurer who goes out of business.
So there is a difference.
erm yes.
I mean obviously the reality is that obviously if you buy a mechanical breakdown insurance from a dealer and the dealer goes into liquidation then obviously that doesn't affect the policy because the policy will still be handled by a company such as ours, and there are a number of companies obviously.
The other point I'm trying to say is that we have to insure with a Department of Trade approved insurer, so that should anything, for any reason, ever happen to ourselves or a company, then the insurance company is still responsible for the claims and will meet them.
All right.
I'm joined by Frank on the line.
Do stay with us, John, because I think this man has a good word to say.
Hello.
I've got a bouquet for the insurance company of Thame, the mechanical breakdown service.
I'll tell you what happened.
I bought a Volvo estate care from the Oxford Used Car Centre and I had done rather  quite high mileage which I sort of didn't really look at the mileage when I bought it.
Then there came  it think it was the gearbox or something went on the gar, you know, because I tow a caravan, and the car just wouldn't pull the caravan, and it was going to cost over a thousand pounds and that like.
I definitely couldn't afford that, so I took it back to the Oxford Used Car Centre and erm what happened, the mechanical breakdown service — now this is where I thought they were very good — they reimbursed me all the money that I'd paid out on those repairs plus they did the repairs and put me a new gearbox in and the car's running perfectly.
Now to me you can't beat a better  that's one of the best insurance people I've ever been with.
And if they look after a customer like that  I mean they can't be faulty, can they?
Well, what do you say to that, John?
Well that's very nice to hear.
I mean obviously since we was established in nineteen eighty three we've gone from strength to strength, and the only way that any company can do that is by offering good service all round.
erm I mean a few of things that I would say, first of all we operate on a freephone system, also we turn claims cheques round the same day, and the name of the game as far as we're concerned is service.
We don't have claim forms.
If people have got a problem, they ring us up and we're here to look after them.
It's a simple as that.
Any company that that isn't in the business of paying claims is not going to be around anyway and I am concerned about the attitude of Roy because it does seem to be extremely one sided.
You can pick fault with anything if you try hard enough, but I do think that the policies that we offer erm are very good and very reasonable.
I'm absolutely delighted to hear that, Bill, and I'm glad we've got a satisfied customer.
What we've got is the practice is totally different to what's in the small print in the document.
Could I suggest, John, that you re-word your document to reflect your practices.
If that's what you're doing in practice, say so, don't put all these exclusions in the document because that makes me suspicious and makes me think you're trying to exclude these things.
Well, I think if I can clarify small print.
If you look through the wording of that policy, it is all the same print.
There is no small print in the booklet.
I think also if you read it through there's no insurance jargon in there at all, except to say that the policy's underwritten by a Department of Trade approved insurer.
But apart from that it is totally and utterly readable.
We also write to the customers, as I have said.
Anybody that does have query from the outset, we invite them to phone us on our freephone number, clarify any points.
If they're not happy with the insurance to start with, we're quite happy to refund.
Well let's listen to another perspective on this one.
Les is on the line.
Oh, hello.
Well first of all I'd like to erm say that erm the last gentlemen who phoned in is a very lucky driver.
erm I bought a car actually over at Kidlington, and I did not know the amount of premium I was paying.
All I was told is that you're getting twelve months guarantee, but you've got to have a three thousand mile service, and as the gentleman said erm I recorded the deliveries and sent them all back and on the third one, when I took it in I asked if they'd put a new set of points in for me and erm unfortunately when it came out there was no compression at all and because because I  it was suggested that I dug my heels in a bit and got an independent report and erm basically they told me to get lost because it cost fifty pound to do the report.
Now what happened was originally that I lost compression on pistons three and four and it worked out there was a very thin channel from piston three to four on the head gasket and erm basically it ruined part of the engine and the whole report said that basically I want a new engine.
And all the M S M was offering was erm a maximum of fifty pound and I was a very lucky person to have that.
And so basically your complaint is what?
Well basically if you pay a hundred and sixty pound plus for a premium, you do not expect to get the sort end of the stick.
I don't anyway.
Right, well let's put that to John Collinswood.
It's very difficult to answer individual cases, but I will do my best on guesswork here.
I would guess that he has one of our Plan Three policies, which does actually have a limited of fifty pounds on the erm head gasket and three hundred pounds on the engine.
Now obviously in  in a situation where a head gasket goes, there's no problem on that because that's straightforward.
It does sound to me  was  there has to have been given a reason as to why the claim was rejected.
Now, if I can say to you if the vehicle was driven on and and on until the engine was damaged with a cylinder head gasket failure, then I would say yes we would repudiate it, because that would be customer negligence.
Now in fairness it wouldn't be our responsibility to to pay for a new engine if the vehicle had been drive on.
But it is guesswork because I don't know the gentlemen concerned and I don't know the full facts.
But I would say that if obviously a head gasket goes on a vehicle and somebody knowing that fact continues to drive the vehicle, yes — and damages their engine — yes I must say we would reject liability.
So precisely what Mr Hill has already pointed out to you in the discussion which he's had with you.
For what's is worth, as a motorist, I may tell you I'm thirty years standing, and I explained to the people when I phoned your office up, I've had thirty years standing as a driver, I check my oil, I check my water, I lost no compression, no water.
Yes, we believe your a good driver, yes, but your point is 
My point is that, in a word, Bill, I mean I would quite honestly I'd refuse to go to a garage where that firm is you know offering the service.
I'm in the dark here obviously because I haven't  I haven't had access to this particular case.
Yes, it is very difficult, I know to comment on individual cases.
I respect that.
No, I would say that if an independent assessor has been dispatched to  this is a good point worth bringing through  in the event of erm a disagreement between ourselves and a policy holder, the policy holder has a number of aspects that they can  they can approach.
First of all, they are entitled to an independent assessor and they are profession independent assessors such as the A A or the R A C, who can inspect the vehicle, and if erm it's proved that the case is genuine then there is no argument on that.
There is an important point I want to come to, and that is the Office of Fair Trading, in connection with the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, have brought out a code of practice last year, which we fully endorse and are members of, and put on our letterheads, which means that if people are dissatisfied with erm a rejection of a claim, or any other matter come to that, they have the right to write to them and complain and have their case investigated.
erm I don't know whether Roy is aware of that.
I am aware of it, and I do know there are many breaches of the code.
I mean some people obviously try to comply with it.
I think, John, I want to come back to the basic one, and that is, as a customer, if you're handed what you think is an extended warranty to cover you for all sorts of things erm then you're very disappointed if you find that most of the things that are going to go wrong with your car are excluded.
That's the fundamental basic issue.
Now if you're saying ‘ah, but we don't exclude them really and that's just the small print’
No, I'm not saying that.
I haven't said that at all.
Right.
Well that's the problem.
In the excitement of buying a car, and you get this extended warranty, the customers think they're covered and I don't think they are.
I think  I think there is definitely an element of that.
When someone is purchasing a vehicle erm they are told that they have a guarantee or a warranty, in actual fact it's mechanical breakdown insurance.
It is a contract of insurance, it's not an open-ended situation, and, yes, I think that people probably do get carried away with the euphoria of buying the vehicle.
What I would say is that we endeavour to counteract that on the reasons that I've stated, by virtue of the fact that we invite them to read the policy.
We write to them normally within seven days, ask them to read it, clarifying exactly the policy they've got, give them the option to pull out if they should so wish, and in fairness I have got to say that we've been doing that now for the last eighteen months.
In all that time we have actually had two people say yes I would like to cancel, of all the policies that we've actually issues.
Well how 
I think there must be a general acceptance of the insurance.
Do you think that when people are buying the insurance that they have much of an idea about their consumer power?
Like, for instance, can they bargain with you to alter any of the exclusion clauses, or do they have to take it as it is and that's that?
In general the exclusion clauses that we're talking about are, in general, are fairly reasonable.
As I was saying earlier on, it is a contract  a legally binding contract, which does lay down the actual contractual position, but as in every business we don't stick rigidly to the lettering of the policy, so erm in practice I think if you take the policy purely as it is erm it probably gives not as good effect of the policy as it actually is.
But basically if people are relying on the print in that policy 
mhm 
it certainly does give them very little coverage.
erm it depends on the policy they've actually issued.
There is a range of policies offered.
Well that's another question I wanted to ask you about.
When people are buying, another example of their purchasing power would be to say ‘well, now I want this particular policy and I want to combine it with a power that's available to me in that policy’.
Can they mix policies?
No 
thirty pound policy gives and the cover that a four hundred pound policy gives is totally different.
I would certainly advise anybody to  to look at the policy, and if they want more cover speak to the dealer that they bought the vehicle from, because it may well be that they could have erm a much, much greater cover which is of more value to them.
I've  I've got your range of one to six here, John, and I'm not  I must stress I'm not singling you out — I mean your company is fairly typical of what's happening in this area — but the main difference between one and six is that erm two and six is that number two covers for two hundred part  up to two hundred pounds 
That includes VAT, doesn't it?
number six is up to three hundred.
Yes, but if you move on to to that  to the mainstream of our policies, which is five and six, that covers up to a thousand pounds parts and labour.
No, I've got number six in front of me, which is three hundred parts and labour.
Yes, we do a range from three hundred to a thousand pound.
Oh, I see.
As you see it's not 
And the premium reflects that, does it?
Oh, that's right.
I mean obviously erm a thousand pounds parts and labour is obviously a lot more expensive than a three hundred pound parts and labour.
This is a point that I'm making, and I think it is worth the erm the consumers when they are going into buy vehicles to ask is this the best policy that I can have?
Now, obviously if it is a erm an old vehicle then obviously the cover is restricted, but normally if it's below five years or sixty thousand they can obtain up to a thousand pound parts and labour.
So your Plan Five covers up to five hundred pounds and additional items like turbo and erm air conditioning and all sorts of things.
It also 
But you've still got all these exclusions in there, John.
They're still there.
erm which ones are we talking about now?
The ones about the negligence or bad workmanship of any description, any faults with the car at time of sale or inherent faults.
Right.
Those that have materialized but occur later.
Right.
Let's  let's try and clarify a few of these points.
Obviously the policy is there  if we can take  let's try and do them one at a time.
The negligence aspect of it, if somebody is negligent and doesn't, for example, keep the engine oil topped up and they drive their vehicle until the engine seizes, in fairness it's not the insurance company's responsibility to put that right if the customer has been negligent, and I don't think any reasonable person would ask us to do that in that situation.
If I can move on to 
Can I come back on that.
Supposing a fitter leaves the oil plug out of the car, there's a leak, the oil drains out of it and it causes some damage, but that damage doesn't appear until a thousand/two thousand miles later, are you going to exclude that or cover it?
That's a very difficult question to answer.
I mean if if if you've had your vehicle serviced and the sump plug hasn't been put back in, then obviously you've got a perfectly legitimate claim against the person that's done the work.
So you're excluding it from your warranty and saying ‘don't bother us, go back to the trader’.
Oh, absolutely, I mean when you say a trader we were talking about a repair shop here if we're talking about servicing work and so on.
I mean if a garage leaves the sump plug loose or doesn't erm put it back in, then obviously the  whoever has done that work, if they are a legitimate erm service department would be more than happy to put that right and would apologise obviously, and the claim would obviously lie with them.
I don't think anybody would expect the insurance company to pick up something of that nature.
That claim would go against the person that's done the service.
Right.
Now let's take the situation, John.
I bought a car secondhand.
This has happened to the car at some time in its past, as a result of which the crank shaft's worn, the engine's a bit dodgy, but I buy  it's not apparent when I buy it, but the engine breaks down after I've bought it and I've paid for this warranty, you're going to come back and say ‘oh, this was a defect inherent in the vehicle before you bought it, excluded by the warranty’.
That's right.
Let's clarify that side of it.
First of all, as I say, we only deal through motor traders anyway, and there is this liability that the motor trade have anyway, and obviously if if something like that has happened it's going to occur fairly rapidly, but certainly within three months or three thousand miles, and obviously the owner of the vehicle has a redress to the dealer and obviously if there's one of our policies on it we would probably accept liability on that, although I can't say for definite.
But what I'm saying is that obviously in that situation it would be back to the dealer and the dealer would deal with it.
But the chances are as a customer I go back to the dealer and he says ‘ah, you've got a warranty, claim on that’.
In the first three months, three thousand miles, that doesn't tend to happen in fairness erm and something like that would come up erm within that time scale, so, yes, I mean they have the right to go back to the dealer and I must admit in my overall view of the motor trade these days they do  they are trying harder and harder to look after their customers because obviously they're in business like everybody else, they know that their policy holders are covered by the Sale of Goods Act merchantable quality, erm and so they realize that if these things happen then they will endeavour to  to put the situation right.
If it was a question that this vehicle was in that state when the sold it, then I would think that most of them would put that right themselves.
However, if there was an insurance against it and they could claim against it I'm sure they would.
So I think that really sort of covers that particular point.
I think also on the inherent fault situation, I mean when somebody buys a vehicle the vehicle has to be of a standard obviously and if there are problems there then obviously people appreciate the fact that they can go back and this is really the point of dealing with a reputable dealer from the word go.
But if they've got this nice little folder with the warranty on it, they think it's covered, don't they, by the warranty.
erm in the last case you mean?
Well in any case.
I mean if you buy a secondhand car and you get a warranty with it, you think it's covered by the warranty.
You're saying it's not.
No, no I'm not saying that at all.
If you've read the policy obviously it details in the policy exactly what is covered and, as I say, depending on the premium paid depends on the type of cover that they have.
Well, what do you think people's expectations are when they come to you?
I think in general by virtue of the fact that we go to great lengths to make sure that people fully understand exactly what they have got  I mean we're not in a  in a situation where we want people to think that they've got something they haven't, which is why we go to the lengths that we do erm to make sure that people are fully aware of what they've got, and if they're unhappy with what they've got then obviously within the fourteen day period we give them the right to cancel.
But in general I think people accept the fact that with used vehicles erm that, depending on the age and mileage of the vehicle they've got, they accept that obviously they can't have a thousand pound cover on say a hundred thousand mile Sierra for example.
erm the cost of of insuring something like that would make it erm out of play basically.
Well could you tell me the number of people who are complaining now about faulty workmanship.
I mean has it gone up recently?
Faulty workmanship?
Not as a general rule.
I mean faulty  faulty workmanship, you're talking really about garages and service work.
There is always arguments as far as service work is concerned erm yes, I mean we do hear of complaints erm and obviously if it's one of our dealers obviously we endeavour to try and resolve any problems if it is one of our dealers.
But I wouldn't say there was an increase in erm problems of that nature.
John, can I just put one point here.
What would be a reasonable premium for your Plan Two?
erm it's very difficult because the actual prices that we charge are, in fact, trade prices.
We don't, in fact, deal with the general public as such.
We only deal through the trade by virtue of the fact that the vehicles are then covered under the Sale of Goods Act.
You must have some idea how much a customer would be expected to pay for it.
Mjc I would say somewhere round about seventy pounds.
Seventy pounds, and your maximum claim liability is limited to two hundred.
erm on that, but don't forget that does cover the engine, the gearbox, the differential.
There's no limit to the number of claims.
It also covers the starter motor and the break master cylinder, and that is for a full twelve month period.
Yes, but it's seventy pounds for a maximum limit on any one claim of two hundred pounds.
Yes.
I think, as I have said to you before, I think the Plan Two is one of our smaller policies, and it's unfair to continue to talk of that one.
I mean obviously the  the more you go up the scale the more competitive it becomes.
Yes, but I just want to make a point here.
That two hundred pounds includes VAT as well, does it not?
Well that's right, but, as I say, this is one of our smaller policies and we don't, in fairness, do a great number of those.
It is really the Plan Five and Plan Six that that tend to be the bulk of our business, which, as I say, gives up to a thousand pound parts and labour, which is obviously a lot better than two hundred pounds.
But you pay the premium for that.
Oh yes, there is  I mean obviously we don't do that for seventy pounds because we couldn't obviously.
mhm
Yes, about what amount of money would a purchaser expect to pay for that kind of cover?
Round about, as a erm a ball park figure, because it does vary on the dealer's claims rate, but you'd be looking at about a hundred and seventy five.
A hundred and seventy five pounds?
Yes.
But that would give a thousand pound parts and labour, and if you look at the coverage on a Plan Five you'll see that it covers turbo charges, air conditioning, central locking, as well as all the mainstream power train, all the electrics and everything else.
If you look at it you can see it's very, very comprehensive.
Yes, you must have many people who don't claim at all on this insurance, they have no need to claim or just decide not to.
I think in general cars, the newer vehicles, are becoming more and more reliable.
I think with the advent of the Japanese vehicles erm and the fact that standards are being improved by all the manufacturers generally, that, yes, overall the number of claims overall will reduce.
And when people do come up to you and they have problems, about what percentage of those problems do you find you can't help them with?
erm it's very difficult, very difficult to answer a question like that.
As an overall thing we probably take about a hundred and fifty phone calls every day from policy holders, and I suppose out of that you  I suppose you  people that haven't erm  have broken down at the side of the road will ring up or something.
There's possibly, oh I don't know,there's probably five that have got say punctures or fanbelts gone, or erm service items which we have to say that  are not covered, but that's a ball park figure.
But it is fairly small.
And so the majority of cases you can deal with?
In the majority of cases, yes.
As long as it's covered by the policy we're here to assist our customers and obviously that's how we're building our reputation.
But you see I find this discussion slightly difficult to deal with because on the one hand you're saying yes, the exclusion clauses in the policy reduce the scope of your liability quite dramatically, and on the other hand you're saying but that's just the words in practice we behave quite differently.
No.
I think we've got to take the individuals.
When we're talking about the negligence factor, obviously the insurance doesn't cover the negligence of  of a repairer, erm any faults inherent at the time of purchase are obviously not our responsibility and I don't think any reasonable person would expect us to cover that because obviously we're  we're in insurance, we're not taking on risks already, we're taking on a risk of mechanical failure of items after they're sold, not obviously before they're sold.
John, could I just come to your brother.
His claim would be excluded by your policy because it was a fault inherent at the time of purchase.
In a case like that  as I have said right from the outset, this is a conflict of interest for me.
I I feel that my brother has been extremely badly treated.
I believe  I've got to be very careful what I say because I could be subject to legal action, but I think this whole case is appalling.
I can't say any more than that.
I'm endeavouring to resolve this problem.
I've contacted the Lloyds Enquiry Unit and they're dealing with the matter.
It is  this is a totally disgraceful situation, and I've also explained that to my brother and I am endeavouring to put this situation right, erm but it is a conflict of interests and I don't really know what else I can say.
I understand that, but under the wording of your insurance that claim would be invalidated because it was a fault inherent at the time of purchase.
erm in that situation I fail to understand how that can necessarily be to be honest, because the vehicle in question has done eighty thousand miles.
Now if that was totally inherent at the time, then I really fail how  to see how it could have done eighty thousand miles, and I think that may be a point that's put across at the same time.
There has been a failure of the crankshaft thrust washers in this case, and certainly in my view that's exactly what the insurance is there for, and by virtue of the fact that this company isn't honouring it I feel very strongly about and I'm endeavouring to correct that, but I think erm we've gotta be fair that this is a conflict of interest to me.
Well, I'd like to go back and talk to you about the exclusion clauses though, and the purchasing power of the people buying these things.
Right.
Usually a contract is seen as an agreement that is freely entered into by both parties, debating or arguing out the terms at arm's length, but in reality this is a take it or leave it operation, isn't it?
erm the policies are offered  in general most dealers in fairness  this question of charging for the policy, in the majority of dealers that we've actually got they include it within the  within the purchase price of the vehicle anyway.
In the majority of cases it is something that is given free of charge.
Now obviously in a case like that there doesn't really need to be a great deal of negotiation because obviously if it's something being given ex gratia then really obviously people really can't be in a position to argue too much.
What I would say, as I have said before, is that there are a range of polices.
If people are unhappy with the policy that they've got, by all means talk to the dealer and say is it possible to have an increased coverage, because in the majority of cases erm that can happen.
They may ask for an extra premium if they're including it  they may ask for a bit towards it, but they can give a better cover.
So, yes, I think that they  any prospective purchaser should look at the insurance and just make sure he's getting the very best that he can on his vehicle.
Yes, but I think prospective car buyers are currently spoiled for choice with offers of discounts and low cost insurance and all sorts of things.
Oh they certainly are at 
But you  you say it's included free of charge.
Well I don't think there's anything as free insurance.
I think it comes out somewhere along the line out of the consumer's pocket.
Oh, I've no doubt that somewhere down the line these things are  are built it, but what I'm saying is that the majority of dealers these days are including it within the package and saying look this vehicle comes with it completely because there is such erm a demand for this erm type of insurance.
erm people do look for protection when they're  when they're buying the second purchase of their lives in most cases.
They do look for protection, and that's really where companies like ours come in.
Well we've talked mostly about various difficulties that bona fide complainants in the public have about the insurance company, what about the other way around?
Do you find that sometimes members of the public try it on with the insurance people?
It's an enormous problem for us, unfortunately, by by virtue of the fact that we  we do most of our claims over the telephone.
We are misled time after time after time when people have problems like they're having their vehicle serviced, it's put a claim in for a water pump, and have the cost of their service paid for.
We have horrendous fraudulent situations and I would say as an average week we have about ten of those.
Right, well thanks very much John Collinswood.
Over to you, Roy Hill.
I think this is a modern syndrome.
It's a good selling point.
If you're selling cars, you've got a guarantee warranty with it, and I think most customers are misled into believing that those guarantees and warranties cover far more than they do in fact.
The advice is read the small print.
As always, I suppose.
Many thanks to my two guests — to John Collinswood from Mechanical Management Services Limited in Thame, and to Roy Hill the Deputy Trading Standards Officer for Oxfordshire County Council.
That's it from me, Bill Heine.
Thanks for joining us.
Goodbye.
Hello and welcome to the programme.
Today I'm joined by four people from Kuwait and we'll be getting the Kuwaiti reaction to the war in the Gulf.
There are three main areas of questions I'd like to put.
First of all, in the Kuwaiti's own view, does it mean to be Kuwaiti?
Who lived in Kuwait before August second and what were the conditions of life.
Secondly, what is the Kuwaiti position on major issues in the region — nationhood, religion, balance of power, balance of wealth, and finally what future role to Kuwaitis aspire to, what sort of peace to they want or expect.
Before turning to these questions, though, I'd like to get some reactions to the current situation, and I might as well put my first question to Jossom.
What do you think is going on in the war Jossom?
I believe you're a member of the Kuwaiti parliament — is that right?
Yes, that's correct.
And how do you feel the war is going?
erm we are concerned because erm perhaps we are getting rather impatient erm and we'd like to see erm the war end as soon as possible with least amount of casualties, and it seems that erm Saddam Hussein is somehow trying to drag this war into a lengthy one by perhaps not retaliating or hiding.
Even though, unfortunately, his army and possibly some civilians might be affected by this, which as human life again which seems to be not of so much importance for him.
But erm do you feel that it's  you have an optimistic sense about the way the war is going?
Are you apprehensive?
It's too early to judge really erm we all realize that the might of the international forces in relation to the Iraqui forces is quite different  is much more.
We are optimistic in the sense that there is a process of liberation going on.
As far as Kuwait is concerned we'd like to see our country free again and this gives us the type of hope we have been wanting for the past six months, and I am sure for the people inside Kuwait — because I was there for about three weeks prior to the  after the invasion I was there and I had to escape that country.
Yes, how did you escape?
Through the desert with my family and through the perils of the desert and erm it took us about eight hours to  to go through the desert, which normally takes two hours, and it was very difficult.
We ran out of water and some other friends ran out of water and we had to help each other and we were getting stuck in the sand and the heat was very high because it was in August and it was around noon time, so erm some people actually turned back erm they couldn't continue, unfortunately; they are friends of ours.
They couldn't continue, so it was quite difficult and we had to avoid the Iraqui army as we did that.
Do you now hear from your friends in Kuwait what conditions are like?
Well I'd like to have 
Fareda, would you like to  Fareda you run and art gallery when you're there in Kuwait.
Yes.
Is that art gallery still standing?
I don't think so because it's in the main street called  street and I was taken over the first day.
It was looted.
So I don't think so.
Yes, right.
We have no access to it anyhow.
All right.
You've heard from friends in Kuwait recently?
Yes, I have my husband back there and I have a sister and a brother.
The brother's a doctor and of course he refused to leave.
He has got his own clinic in his house.
erm a sister who sends out wonderful letters and they've been published, and my husband he calls, you know, whenever he can.
And how are they bearing up?
I mean what's it like for them day to day living?
My husband puts it very nicely.
He says you have to have erm nerves of steel.
By now they are probably nerves of iron because, you know, you have  to co-exist with an army like that he has to really take it fairly easy because they can be quite rude and, you know, shove you around get whatever they want and very harmful methods.
So you just have to take it fairly easy, you know, calm down and yes and  and everything will go well.
And has he seen any particular kinds of treatment of the Kuwaiti people that we've been hearing about?
Yes, of course, erm you know it's very humiliating being under that regime now, but as to whether  what he's seen exactly he will not talk about it.
He doesn't want to disturb me, but my sister has, yes.
What has she said?
Her letters  what hasn't she said ?
She's talked about deaths, rapes, children being taken from homes erm people being shot in front of their parents erm people disappearing from the streets.
erm it's it's  we've recorded it all in Amnesty International.
mhm Well you've told me a bit about what's it's like to be inside Kuwait, what about the Kuwaitis outside Kuwait?
What is life like from them?
Maybe Dehad would like to answer that one.
Welcome to the programme Dehad.
Hello.
Well obviously the Kuwaitis erm living outside  live under a hardship, are living under a tremendous amount of pressure.
As you know, most Kuwaitis, if not all, have families inside Kuwait.
erm most of them haven't heard much from their families, no news at all, for the last six months and it's been very difficult for us.
Our lives are ruined.
Our future is uncertain.
erm that's from a  that's on a personal basis.
erm at the moment our country is occupied erm the only thing erm holding erm  holding us through it is hope, hope of turning back and the erm  the determination our friends, our families inside Kuwait.
Yes.
Could you tell me how people outside Kuwait from that country are contributing to the war effort.
Well erm for instance like myself erm like what we are doing in the association for free Kuwait erm as you know it's erm it's basically  after August the second, after the invasion a group of private citizens, a group of Kuwaiti citizens, formed this association.
We felt that it is our duty to to inform the people about the situation of Kuwait, about Kuwait in general, it's culture, it's erm  as a nation, and erm in addition to help the Kuwaiti community erm and at the moment erm we are collecting information erm either on the general situation inside Kuwait City at the moment, or erm generally more information about Kuwait.
All right.
Excuse me.
Yes, go ahead.
In addition to that also erm we have  we have been in constant contact with the erm Kuwait Red Crescent, which is based now in Bahrain, and we are erm helping to get Kuwaitis in touch with the Kuwait Red Cross in Bahrain, have them trained erm to know first aid basics, donate blood, so on so forth.
Well, let's move on to Mohammed, and I should say that I'm identifying each one of the people in the studio by their first names because it would be dangerous to identify them by their surnames.
I appreciate it, thank you.
Mohammed, what do you think of the Allied tactics, the bombing of bridges and roads and utilities as well as military installations?
Is it necessary?
Well I think this war  the aim of this war is to achieve erm minimum casualty, and by doing what the allied forces are doing by denying the Iraqui forces the logistics such as transportations and communication system is very vital to reduce the power of the enemy and then you can force him to retreat, or you can weaken the army that will result in minimum casualty for the allied forces.
But what about the argument that in order to save Kuwait the allies have to destroy it.
I mean where do you draw the line?
What is unacceptable?
Well erm destroying erm Kuwait erm it's not an easy thing because erm what the allied forces are doing is erm attacking the important military bases and military installation.
The Kuwait  the Kuwait cities are designed in such a way that the military installations and erm  are outside the country, so from the eyewitnesses that we receive that all the bombings are on the outskirts of the city, no damage to Kuwait City or to the civilians inside Kuwait.
Well it seems to me that the utilities and the supplies to the Iraqui forces are one of the warm aims.
To destroy them is one of the war aims, and that means that the fabric, the infrastructure, of your cities is being gutted.
Well instead of going and destroying utility plants such as power plants and desalination plants, there are actually easier way and a less expensive way to do it is by attacking like sub-stations which erm actually you don't destroy the power plant, you just destroy the erm source where you can distribute electricity to the whole country.
So this is not a major destructive force.
They can do erm damage to a section of the network erm that does not bring about major destruction and with this accurate bombing that we've been seeing this kind of operation is possible.
Fareda, I'd like to come back to you because you said that you had quite a bit of information from people currently in Kuwait.
Do you know if there are major aspects of the civilian life blood of their country being ripped out?
I'm sorry, I didn't understand that.
Civilian life 
Well, different utilities, different roads are being destroyed, bridges, I mean are these things going on?
Within Kuwait?
Yes.
The Iraquis did that as of second of August.
I don't think they can take any more, you know they've left nothing there, but now the allies — I don't think there is much, and even if they have they call them surgical, you know, sight bombing 
mhm 
so I don't think they've found anybody.
Jossom, do you think that the allies' war aims are to destroy Iraqui military and the Iraqui regime, or to liberate Kuwait?
What would be the priorities that you would put these war aims?
Actually, they are erm interconnected.
If you want to liberate Kuwait, which is the aim of the United Nations resolutions, it is to reduce the forces of the invaders, hoping, as my friend Mohammed mentioned,hoping that the invaders themselves will see the reasoning behind pulling away and saving their own arm and their own lives.
So the fact that the liberation of Kuwait is the primary target, then the invaders have used force, therefore force is the counterbalance and what is happening right now is they try to dismantle this war machine and make it ineffective, so it is interconnected.
Now if, hopefully, the people of Iraqui see that their whole country is now being subjected to such much devastating attacks, hopefully that they would overthrow their regime, because that regime has brought nothing but misery to the people of Iraq and has added to the catalogue of misery of the world.
If we look into the history of Iraq I don't think anybody can remember in the past twenty years they have contributed anything, neither in the terms of world economy, neither in the world of world peace, or any humanitarian 
Well  well I want to understand more about Kuwait, though, as a result of this programme, and a lot of people don't really know what it means to be Kuwaiti.
Well who are the Kuwaitis and how do they differ  and how are they different from the Saudi Arabians and the southern Iraquis?
We have, even though we are Arabs and we are neighbouring countries like Saudi Arabia and the Emirates, but we have our own identity and it is very distinct.
In what does it consist?
First of all Kuwait as a country goes back to seventeen fifty.
It has always been known as Kuwait, and erm the settlers of Kuwait are Arabs that came from Saudi Arabia and the southern part of Iraq and the southern parts of Iran, and they are settlers there.
They are merchants and in their life before the oil they were very well known merchants and they had tribesmen in that area.
And they chose themselves to have the ruling family to be the Al Sabar family.
Yes, but they differ from people in Saudi Arabia or from southern Iraq because of their language, or because of their race, or their religion?
No, no.
What is that characterises the Kuwaiti?
In this respect we have many things in common with them, but with our mental erm structure, our habits of being tradesmen created the Kuwaiti community to be adventurous, to be erm well co-ordinated with each other, to have erm ambitions and to be wise in the use of their resources.
So if you look as to how Kuwait grew by after the oil it gives a good example how we put the use of the oil to the betterment of mankind.
In other words, we have a welfare state, we help the international community with our foreign aid, and we are very progressive and we use the most up-to-date erm technology in developing our country and erm we are paying no taxes, and very progressive.
And we have constitution since nineteen sixty two, which is a democratic constitution, which has been governing our country unlike our neighbours.
Well, yes, I want to find out some  about the history of Kuwait.
I mean the defining moments in the Kuwaiti history are what?
The English have ten sixty six and the Armada and the Swiss have William Tell, well what are the landmarks of Kuwaiti history?
erm If we go back, Kuwait has always been an independent country until the Ottoman Empire was erm threatening that area, and they were ruling the Arab peninsula, which later to be known as Iraq, and when the Kuwaiti people felt the threat of the Ottoman Empire they signed a treaty with the British at that time, and that was in eighteen ninety nine and Iraq was established in nineteen twenty, so we are are ahead of that.
That is our heritage and that's our identity which we kept, and that's one thing which we are very proud of.
And in nineteen sixty one, when we got our independence, immediately we had the constitution committee and we wrote our constitution.
Well what about the British role in all this?
Could Kuwaiti have existed without British protection?
I think it's difficult to say that, but erm we feel that the British protection was very important for the erm sovereignty, for maintaining the external sovereignty of Kuwait, but our internal affairs has always been within the Kuwaiti community.
Well what do you think motivated the British protection of Kuwait?
I believe erm the rulers of Kuwait at the time were very erm wise to to to make such treaty with the British for the protection of their country and the British respected the Kuwait autonomy at the time and this joint erm respect for each other I believe which gave rise to Kuwait to be what it is today.
mhm Do you think it had anything to do with protecting the routes to India?
I doubt it.
I'm not sure, but Kuwait was a very important  a very important erm port.
Yes, we had many trade lines with India and the eastern coast of Africa.
I believe my friend is shaking her head yes, so we must have been also part of the route .
Yes because of it's also strategic erm location in addition to what my colleague here, Jossom, has added  in addition to it it has a strategic erm location as well.
It's an important port and it connects the east with the west.
And during the last two centuries, especially when Britain had strong ties with India and the Indian sub-continent and the trade was flourishing on those routes.
It is an important location.
We had a fleet of about eight hundred ships,that is, in Kuwait, which is erm much more than any other gulf state at the time.
All right.
Well, before the invasion who lived in Kuwait?
The Kuwaiti population is about one point seven million erm about six to seven hundred thousand of them are the Kuwaiti nationals.
The rest were ex-patriots.
That's a very large proportion of ex-patriots.
It is, and that is the advantage of Kuwait, and that is one thing which  which perhaps the world should appreciate, that we were a haven for ex-patriots to come there and make a living and work.
We had close to four hundred thousand Palestinians, we had almost a hundred and eighty thousand Indians, ninety thousand erm from Bangladesh, about eighty thousand Phillipinos and we had about also seventy five thousand Pakistanis and erm many other erm nationalities.
I think we have something like a hundred and twenty nationalities living in Kuwait and enjoying the free school, the free hospital.
Well that  that's wanted to ask.
Do  did Kuwaitis pay taxes?
No, nobody paid taxes.
Not  everybody in Kuwait was not subjected to tax.
Of course all the revenues from oil went to the Government, but equally on the other side is the welfare state.
Nobody paid any kind of tax.
Well what services did you get from the state?
Do you want to answer that Mohammed or Dehad.
Mohammed.
Yes.
The people  the people who are living in Kuwait, they got all the basic erm services such as electricity and water, which is, you know, water is processed a mechanically processed system, we don't have rivers and we don't have portable water wells erm we process our own water through erm desalination plants located at  on the gulf.
The erm  also the government provided a very sophisticated network of erm of erm sewage systems for the country.
They provided education, free education, free health services erm one of the modern communication system and ports erm and they ensure job for every Kuwaiti, so you will not find an unemployed Kuwaiti, as soon as he is able to do one job or another the Government provided the training for a large number of Kuwaiti to provide technical works.
What about the ex-patriots, did they pay taxes?
No.
Nobody pays taxes in Kuwait 
Did they get the same services?
and the ex-patriots receive the same services as Kuwaitis.
And even if they transfer money 
Jossom.
in and out of Kuwait they never have to  their only restrictions at any time, never, even if Kuwait had a financial crisis because of the crash of its stock market one expected that people might move their capital outside the country because of it, but there was no restrictions, no control, everybody was free, you could walk in and out of the country 
mhm 
any part.
Were  these ex-patriots a part of your workforce and presumably they contribute greatly to the country.
What happens to them on their retirement from their working life?
erm there is for the Kuwaitis erm  we just recently started a social security system for the Kuwaitis.
For the international people there are civil laws, by which they companies have to provide what we call indemnities for the person who works and these indemnities go according to certain formulas, which is known by everybody, and it's in a way protecting them after they leave.
erm many people came to Kuwait to work for a short term and after a while they realised it's fine so they continued to stay there for a long time, and that is the haven that we were talking about.
Unfortunately, all the ex-patriots, including the Kuwaiti, lost everything they had after the invasion.
In other words the Iraqui forces took over the banks, they looted everything.
Everybody had to leave, almost much poorer than when he came into Kuwait, including ex-patriots.
Well these ex-patriots, I'd like to look at their situation a little bit more carefully.
Is naturalisation open to them?
Yes, but very restricted erm in other words if you look at the history of Kuwait for the time that we received or we got our independence, we had to start our nationalisation process as an independent country.
At that time it was more erm easy to get Kuwait nationality, so we have Egyptians, we have Palestinians, we have Indians, we have Pakistanis, Iranians who got Kuwaiti nationality when it all started.
With time, as it became more lucrative a country for people to come, obviously the country had to be more restrictive about providing the nationality.
You can apply for it, but it takes a little longer than other places to obtain it.
Yes.
How long does it take about?
Well, it depends, because there's a committee that is responsible for this and you have to bring many erm recommendation letters and you have to bring a lot of documents and eye witnesses to go by this rule.
Are there quotas?
No, no, there's no such thing as quotas there.
It is just a matter of how you can build up the Kuwaiti nationality to go along with the growing community in the country and we were just a developing country.
All right.
Will the state, after liberation, enlarge the definition of Kuwaiti?
Pardon.
Could you say that again.
Well, after liberation 
Yes.
will the state have a more relaxed view to who can be a Kuwaiti?
I am sure the events will have erm an effective signature on the life of Kuwait, yes, it will have.
However, how it is going to look like is going to depend after when we go back, when the system of government gets organised and then we've got to look into this whole idea of how to live in Kuwait, which I am sure will be open to changes, to modifications, and anything is possible.
All right.
But my last word on the ex-patriots is can Kuwait survive without a foreign labour force?
No, it cannot.
I cannot survive.
Technically it cannot, physically it cannot, because we have such erm large programmes of development that you need the manpower, you need the muscle, and the majority of them have left now and that'll be a new dilemma for Kuwait and it's rebuilding operation to bring back people to help develop with it's own Kuwaiti 
Dehad 
I understand that.
It's also a dilemma also for their own countries.
For instance erm the erm ruminations of the ex-patriots towards their homelands, towards their families, had contributed a lot erm for some countries towards their J and P as a percentage for their J and P .
As a result of the invasion, the Iraqui invasion on August the second, many economies, especially in the third world countries  developing countries, have been affected a lot by this crisis, not only in terms of erm world trade, the international security, the stability in the world, stability in the international markets and so on so forth, but also with regard to the ruminations from the ex-patriots living in the gulf area in general.
erm that's another element erm of the dilemma.
I mean it's not only  Kuwait as a country has been affected erm with regard to the ex-patriots, also the countries, the home countries of the ex-patriots, have been affected a lot, especially the third world countries.
All right.
Well, I'd like to move on  well, before we do that, let's go to Norman.
Norman is calling from Basingstoke and has a question for you.
Hello Norman.
Hello Bill.
Well my question was to be erm would your guests be happy to return to a Kuwait the same as it was before, but having listened I feel somewhat enlightened, although perhaps they'd still like to answer the question in that form.
But I would like to add what is the political situation there?
One gets the impression it was an autocracy and not a democracy.
Have they any feelings about that, plus my other question.
Jossom.
Thank you for your interest in listening to us.
The Kuwaiti system of government consists of the Emir, which is the ruler, and the constitution which is written by the people of Kuwait in nineteen sixty two.
In the constitution we have two bodies.
One is the government, which is the Emir of Kuwait, and his cabinet, which is around fourteen to sixteen ministers.
They form the government of Kuwait.
They are the executive body, and the national assembly is the people of the Kuwait, and fifty members are directly elected by the people through the twenty  constituencies which we have, and you have here the legislative body, in other words a parliament of fifty members and the government, and they sit together and they run the business of the country like any other parliament, and if you look to the television and see what happens in the House of Commons, it is exactly what happens in Kuwait.
Oh, I hope not .
Can you tell me  can you tell me 
I mean the freedom of talking.
Yes, I understand.
Yes, Jossom, you've been in parliament over there.
For how long?
Actually my father was one of the first parliament members of Kuwait, but I became a member only just before the invasion by two months.
Bill.
Yes, Norman.
Does the will of the Kuwaiti parliament transcend the will of the Emir and does parliament carry the day?
Yes, who's got  in the hierarchy of power, who really is top dog?
It is the people, the parliament actually, because the Emir when he proposes a cabinet the parliament can accept the cabinet, or change, or request it to be changed and even the Prime Minister, which is proposed or nominated by the Emir, the cabinet has to approve him, and together they  they run the business of the government.
However, the Emir has the right to dissolve the government temporarily.
The national assembly, up to only a certain period of time, according to the constitution, and then again the parliament has to come back again into the picture.
And if parliament passes a law 
Yes.
can anybody overrule it?
erm only the Emir, and he has to give very erm strict reasons for it and he sends it back to the parliament to look into it again and when it comes back the second time the Emir can pass it.
But it is 
Has he got to pass it?
He can.
Yes, I think he has to pass it.
Yes.
Now that's a very detailed thing regarding the technicality of running the parliament, which I am sorry I cannot right now answer you, but it's covered.
Okay.
So okay, in general then you'll be quite happy to go back to a  the Kuwait that you knew?
Let me add here erm I don't want to say that we will duplicate what is happening, but if there's going to be any reform to be done it is open and you can introduce reform into our constitution once you have the parliament back again and the Emir and such reform can be introduced.
We are considering even the woman to vote hopefully soon.
You mean currently women cannot vote?
Yes, at this moment they do not vote.
Yes.
Yes, Dehad, you mean the political life of the country is devoid of you're erm  whatever you have to offer?
Well that's right erm but then on the other hand erm there are other avenues in erm the social life of Kuwait  the political life of Kuwait that I can offer, and I can contribute and as a matter of fact can affect 
For instance?
Well I could speak from a personal experience.
When I was a student at Kuwait University we had a lot of lectures, political lectures.
We had our opinion with regard to the political life in Kuwait.
There are are lot of things that I erm personally I wasn't in agreement with erm things erm how things  the government has run things.
Well could you tell me precisely?
Well there was erm during the eighties, for instance, there was a lot of talk going on about having some changes within the constitution.
I as a person didn't find that these changes were essential and I stated my opinion in erm in 
What were the erm proposed changes?
At the moment really I can't erm specifically recall them, but the  I saw the personally, the direction of them, there wasn't  I didn't agree with erm them, but then there were other erm  other citizens erm they saw that they were healthy changes.
This is erm  this is a kind of positive contribution.
However, I am looking forward to erm to the new Kuwait, to the Kuwait after liberation, because there were discussion about the erm participation of erm Kuwaiti woman within the political life of Kuwait and erm this was in a conference in October, as I recall, and the Prime Minister, the political leadership of Kuwait, has stated that erm after the liberation of Kuwait erm women will have erm far more erm participation within the political erm life of Kuwait.
Jossom.
At this moment in Kuwait we have three positions of under-secretary, which is the number two position after the minister, who are Kuwaiti women.
They hold as high positions as that and they run ministries, and I'd like to add that in Kuwait the number of women deans in the Kuwait university is the highest in the world, so the woman is working side-by-side by the man, and we are very proud of them, we always have been, and especially after the invasion when I was in Kuwait on the fourth day the people who went in the streets chanting against the Iraqui invasion were the Kuwaiti women.
They had pictures of the Emir, the Crown Prince, and the flag of Kuwait, and they said Saddam get out.
That is how courageous they have been.
mhm And Mohammed.
Well also  just  my experience, my own experience with the developments of and the evolution of the policies in Kuwait coming at working at Kuwait Institute for Scientific Research, there were many erm studies conducted at Kuwait Institute for Scientific Research and the other institute, The Social erm Political Institute, and they were  the main of that was the probe through all these policies and through these institutions we have in Kuwait and try to improve it to a standard that the Kuwaiti people and the neighbouring country can benefit from at that .
Well, Norman, we'll come back to you for a final comment.
Oh, thank you, Bill.
Yes, it occurs to me to ask is Islam less strict in Kuwait than it is in Saudi Arabia, where, I gather, women are not allowed to drive cars, thieves will have their hands cut off and things like that.
Are you less severe in Kuwait?
Jossom.
That's putting your question a rather smart way I must say .
No, I don't think it's the same Islam, it is just how you want to go about it erm in Kuwait, and I don't want to say that we prefer our Islam more than what the Saudis do.
No, I don't mean that.
In Kuwait it is just that we  by the way in Kuwait we have two courts, we have the civil courts and we have the Islamic court, and erm Islamic cases go to the Islamic court and otherwise they go to the civil court, except just we  we accept erm how to live our live in a modern way and keeping up with the times, and it is a tradition that we have adopted in Kuwait, and the fact that it is for women can drive in Kuwait versus those that don't in Saudi Arabia, I don't believe I'd like to put that in the Islamic context, it's just a way of life which we have adopted.
You say there are two kinds of court, Islamic courts and civil courts.
Yes.
Well when there is a criminal case does that got to the Islamic or 
Well it depends, if 
What cases would go to the Islamic courts?
Usually they go to civil courts, such criminals like stealing or killing, you know things like that.
Yes, what will go to the Islamic one?
You have things like heredity, marriages, divorces, erm some way of life which has to do with Islamic doctrine that you do and some dispute happens, you take it to the Islamic courts and they have religious judges who take it in that context and they go according to the laws of Islam.
Well I'd like to get your reactions to some of the major regional issues.
When Iraq invaded Iran what was the position of the Kuwaiti government and of the Kuwaiti people.
Dehad, do you want to answer that one?
It's a very difficult one, I realise.
No, well actually erm as I recall it erm  well as you remember as well that 1980, 1979/1080, after the revolution in Iran, the situation in the gulf in general was under turmoil.
There was a lot of things going on erm a lot of uncertainties, political uncertainties, so on so forth 
But what was the position of the Kuwaiti government?
Well erm it was actually erm trying to erm eliminate erm the erm dangers of the war, to stop the war, because it's not for anyone 
So they were neutral?
No, well up to a certain extent I am afraid, not all the way.
All right, whom were they supporting?
Well there erm  there were facilities, a lot of facilities given to Iraq, but I might as well add that the erm whole of the erm Middle East, the Arab world, were backing Iraq in that conflict.
Personally, from a personal view during those years I was erm going for a neutral stance on the conflict because it didn't help any cause and it only hurt and harmed the peoples of both Iraq and Iran.
All right.
Jossom.
erm in general we must remember that Iran was erm stating very clearly that it was exporting it's revolution and there were statements which came out from the Iraqui  from the Irani revolutionary committee that they were against the Arab states at the time and that they were very committed towards liberating Israel through Baghdad and such statements was coming, so obviously erm the Arabs had to stick together according to charter of the league of Arab states, which everybody was a member of, and Iraq being subjected to to to war it was natural for the Arabs to give Iraq support.
Now it didn't mean that you build his war machine, but the Kuwaiti people being so close, or actually bordering, we helped the economy of Baghdad, we helped the economy of the Iraq, and we contributed thirteen billion dollars, just the government alone, to their economy and the people of Kuwait also helped with their own private donation to help the schools, the hospitals, the food, whatever they needed, and the country of Kuwait was erm trying to be, as my friend said, as neutral as possible because there is Irani interest in Kuwait, very great through trade, through Iranis who work in Kuwait, so we had a very difficult position with respect to keeping both parties erm sort of in sight, not lose sight of them from our humanistic point of view, but it was erm difficult to to to avoid being on the side of the Iraqui, mainly because they're neighbours and they're Arabs, and you're part of the league of Arab states, so you can't draw the line and say the government was pro or against, but that was the atmosphere which we were leaving.
All right.
Fareda, do you think that the people of Kuwait supported Saddam in that war?
erm I think to defend our interests, to a certain extent, yes, you know we were threatened and erm in that sense only perhaps.
I don't think that one could have a consensus with that regard, I mean people were split really on that issue erm as I have said, personally I was always against the whole thing, against the war in general between Iraq and Iran because it was devastating for both countries.
Yes.
Did Kuwaitis actually fight or die in that war?
No, no, there was no military participation of any sort.
On the contrary, there was attempts to the life of our Emir during the Iraq/Iran war because we were taking relatively  trying to be neutral there, and there was a bomb attack on him, and he personally survived it, a few others died, and it had to do directly with the Iran/Iraq war.
We couldn't realise who was doing it, but it was very mixed up, so we were trying to be as neutral as possible, without getting dragged into it directly.
As my friend say, we did provide them facilities like the Port of Kuwait for the incoming foodstuff and material which Iraqui needed came through our ports and through our roads to their erm to Bahrain to Baghdad.
mhm And Mohammed.
Well I was erm  I was erm out of the country.
I was in the United States when the invasion of Iraq  the invasion of Iraq into Iran, and I saw the whole situation with the aid of erm the United States mass media, so actually erm I had different ideas about erm what is the outcome and what is the results of the erm invasion was, and I took erm throughout the conflict I took an opposing view, because I always viewed the Iraquis as being aggressor and they inflicted damaged to a neighbouring country and erm they had erm no whatsoever rights to do anything like that and we see it again when erm they invaded Kuwait, they have no right at all erm they  it is just the policy of the governing body of the Iraqui regime.
They are  they are aggression forces, that's all.
And another major regional issue is the plight of the Palestinians.
In Kuwait there are about how many Palestinians?
I mentioned earlier, there are about four hundred thousand.
Four hundred thousands.
Now 
That must be one of the largest settlements of Palestinians.
Yes, they are the largest settlements and that proves to the world and proves to everybody how the Palestinians chose Kuwait as a place to live, rather than Iraq or any other state.
But we have reports that Palestinians and other ex-patriots they helped the invading Iraquis and took part in the looting.
How do you explain that?
It is true, but we cannot generalise.
We know for sure in Kuwait, being so close to the Palestinians, that the Palestinian leadership does not really represent the Palestinian people, and there is, within the leadership, erm qualms — they don't all agree.
The people of Palestine in Kuwait generally are people who just want to live and make and living and support their own erm cause, and on the contrary we have many Palestinians who helped the Kuwaitis and protected them during the invasion.
We know of Palestinians who came from Iraqui with the  regime, so these are Palestinians who follow the  regime.
They are equally as brutal as the Saddam Hussein group is.
Unfortunately, those four hundred thousand Palestinians lost everything in Kuwait, and erm it'll be important to know that for each Palestinian in Kuwait there's at least two or three other Palestinians whom they support outside Kuwait, in other words in Jordan, West Bank and the Gaza strip, so totally the Palestinians who got devastated by this invasion is about one point two million Palestinians.
They lost, thanks to Saddam Hussein's invasion.
Yes, and Mohammed.
Actually the government and the people of Kuwait did not really stop, erm only providing assistance to the Palestinians who are living in Kuwait.
It went even beyond its border.
Kuwait government and the people of Kuwait provided assistance to the Palestinians all over the world, including the Palestinians living in occupied land.
It provided them with assistance in their education, in their hospitals, actually one of the biggest hospitals in the occupied lands in Palestine, it was funded more than seventy per cent by Kuwaiti governments and their university was also from tuition and the salaries of professors they are all sponsored by the Kuwait government.
I'd like to add that the Palestinian community in Kuwait are quite well to do.
We have one of the largest contractors are Palestinians.
We have businessmen, shop keepers, shop owners, professors in the university, teachers and the high level of the technical working class in our government posts are Palestinians, and we grew with them.
I mean for thirty years we feel like brothers and sisters with them, and it is unfortunate that Saddam Hussein has turned it all now against everybody.
When the Sabbat family is restored to Kuwaiti, what will happen to the remaining Palestinians?
I don't think we'd like to now, under this emotional shock, try to justify what happens between the people  the community of Kuwait.
I'd like to be very clear here that emotionally and using emotions now against your intellect, I think it's very dangerous and it is  we like to avoid this.
I believe the Kuwaiti people naturally are a peace loving people and we will never forget that erm good nature of us and we will try to capitalise on that and maintain peace and Kuwait become again a country which has to have peaceful causes  everybody.
But as member of the national assembly, do you think those Palestinians are those people who fled to India and the Philippines etc. will be allowed back.
As a matter of fact we want them back because first of all they left everything in Kuwait and left.
They  they left their own personal belongings and I know from very close friends that those Palestinians who didn't like the invasion they left Kuwait and went back to Jordan, so we hope they come back.
The Indian community I was in contact with when I was in Delhi, they like to come back to Kuwait.
We want them back because they are part of our livelihood.
They helped build Kuwait and they know about Kuwait and we know about them and we trust each other.
We'd like all of us to come back there.
I'd also I'd like to get your views on the future prospects for peace.
So I suppose the only answer is to take the unusual step of inviting you back tomorrow, and I hope we can continue the conversation tomorrow.
But for today, many thanks to Mohammed, to Jossom, to Dehad and to Fareda.
That's it from me, Bill Heine.
Thanks for joining us.
Goodbye.
Hello and welcome to the programme.
Today we'll be talking about sexual harassment in Oxford colleges.
A recent survey indicated that most perpetrators, forty two per cent, with women's fellow students, while twelve per cent of the cases involved academic staff.
But exactly what is sexual harassment.
One male don in an interview said ‘some people think that sexual harassment is positively desired, that there isn't a problem and that women quite enjoy it’.
I'm joined by three women who will have views on that, I'm sure.
First of all, Suzanne Gibson is a law tutor at New College.
Marianne Talbot is a philosophy don at Pembroke, a Joanna Innes is the senior proctor this year.
Suzanne Gibson, welcome to the programme.
What do you think sexual harassment is?
Well I think there's a difficulty here because I think one of the questions is a matter of perspective erm how do you define  how you define what sexual harassment is is to an extent a factor of your perspective on the question in that I think that tutors who have been thinking about it in recent years, and women tutors, who have taken the lead in it, have tended to think about the implications from the institutional perspective, that is how do tutors behave to their students and in what ways may that affect students' studies and their live in the college.
I think what's very striking about the report which the students' union have recently published and are circulating around the university, is the extent to which they have tended to define sexual harassment as being as much or at least as much a problem between students, a problem of behaviour between students and a problem of the sort of atmosphere in the colleges in terms of how that affects how peoples lives feel and and how they are  how their behaviour  what sort of behaviour is acceptable.
So I think there are different perspectives which tend to define the issue differently.
But something about your comments worries me a great deal, and that's the fact that many women tutors, you say, have been looking at this issue, but they haven't looked at the major part of the issue, which is from the students' perspectives and the problem that goes on between students.
They've been focusing on the relationship between staff and students and so why did you focus on what appears to be the short end of the stick, rather than the major problem?
Well I know that my colleague Joanna Innes wants to comment on this, but if I could answer that immediately, I think there is a question about how you define what the major problem is.
I think the fact that erm only twelve per cent of perceived sexual harassment cases come from tutors isn't to make that a minor problem, because the impact that sexual harassment, coming from tutors, institutional actors as it were, can have on students is phenomenal and you know one can't get too tied up in terms of the amount or the quantity of sexual harassment, I think one has to consider the quality of sexual harassment as well if one can put it that way, and it's by no means a minor problem.
All right, well let's look not just at the quantity, but at the quality.
Are there any reported rapes between staff and students?
Not as far as I know.
Well are there reported rapes between students?
Well, yes, I think there's a recent report of a rape erm  I think if you're saying well, you know, a rape is a very, very serious incident of sexual harassment, that's not to be denied, and I think it goes beyond being sexual harassment.
But there's a whole range of behaviours which one can include in sexual harassment, going from fairly mundane every day things which just grind people down and which grind people down because they happen on a constant basis, to very serious once in a while sorts of behaviours, and to try and categorise them as major or minor doesn't really get us very close to being what the issue is about.
Well how do you see the issue?
Go  go ahead.
Marianne Talbot is a philosophy don at Pembroke College.
I'd like to just bring you back to the first question you asked, which was how do you define sexual harassment.
I think it's a terribly difficult thing to do, but I'd like to have a go at it in the following way, by saying that somebody is  a case of sexual harassment has occurred when the behaviour of one person makes another person uncomfortable in such a way that that person, the person who's uncomfortable, becomes overly conscious of their gender or sexual characteristics.
Now that can happen both ways, but it's very important that one feature of that is that it makes somebody uncomfortable.
Clearly there's sexual interaction or social interaction between men and women that one person would decide is sexual harassment and another wouldn't.
One would enjoy the flirting.
But if it makes somebody uncomfortable and makes them overly conscious of their gender erm and perhaps how they look, then that's what I think is sexual harassment.
But uncomfortableness is a notoriously wide term.
What do you mean by it?
mhm Well I think it can go from anything, I mean just a vague feeling of suddenly being put off what you're talking about because you've suddenly become conscious of how you're looking.
I mean that can be both pleasurable, but also make somebody feel uncomfortable.
I mean I can give you a little example erm I was once trying to add up a series of figures in the middle of an admissions exercise, and one of the other  one of the men said to me ‘oh, come on, you're far too pretty to do mental arithmetic’ and I completely lost my train of thought, I got rather confused.
I was able to come back on that and add up the figures perfectly competently, but I can imagine that other people might not have been able to, and 
But how do you deal with those 
not been efficient in their job.
But those kind of comments are are indicative of the mind of the person making them.
I mean it's a lovely insight into where they're coming from, who they are, what their priorities are, and I welcome those kinds of comments, because at least then it's out into the open.
You mean you'd like it if I interrupted you when you were doing something 
You interrupt me all the time Marianne.
and say ‘Bill, you're so pretty’.
You can handle it, Bill, but not everyone can.
Let's move on to my next guest .
I don't want to trivialise the programme by saying you're wearing the most extraordinary outfit today, but Joanna Innes is a senior proctor, and you're dressed in a particularly strange way.
Yes, I'm wearing subfusc which is the sort of uniform students of the university always wear when they're taking exams, so it's a familiar sight on the street of Oxford, but I'm also wearing clerical bands, which are a sign of my office.
The idea is that people on the street could tell at a glance that I'm a proctor, which of course only the more informed of them can .
Right, well I didn't mean to put you off your stride.
Yes, your comments.
Well, perhaps I can say  pick up on a couple of points in the discussion.
First of all it's true that the term sexual harassment is used to cover an extraordinarily wide range of forms of behaviour, from behaviour that makes people mildly uncomfortable, to quite violent forms of aggression, and this can be a problem and confuse discussion.
Two people who think they are disagreeing may, in fact, be talking about different things and wouldn't disagree if they were talking about the same thing, but it's important to recognise that when the university and colleges talk about what they want to do about sexual harassment, they certainly imagine that a range of different forms of response are going to be appropriate to this range of different forms of behaviour, ranging from on the one hand education, encouraging people to think they have a right to protest and answer back, to giving them access to erm people who may mediate and persuade another person who they're not making an impact on that their behaviour is unreasonable, to the most extreme disciplinary procedures against someone who's behaving in a way which is generally thought to be unacceptable and who's not prepared to desist.
Perhaps the other point I can make is to go back to the question of why women tutors and people in the university generally have emphasised harassment of students by academic staff more than they've emphasised harassment by students of one another, and I think it's not that it was thought that students didn't commonly make each other uncomfortable, but as an issue of principle in terms of whether it's appropriate for university or college authorities to intervene in what many people regard as students' private lives.
It's quite commonly said that twenty years ago the universities and colleges decided to treat students as adults and leave them to organise their own affairs erm and the argument about what to do in this area isn't an argument about whether it's a serious problem, but about what are appropriate and even effective forms of intervention.
I think  I think the only thing that I would disagree with there is that I strongly suspect that a lot of tutors in the university, not just women tutors but across the board, really have little idea of the level of sexual harassment that students  that female students have identified as being problem in the questionnaire.
Now I'd have to say when I saw the report in the Observer, which was a couple of months ago, the rape in the quad report, my feeling was that this was a national newspaper picking on Oxford because Oxford and sex makes great headlines and it was going to be a good sell, and I felt that it was inappropriate in that sexual harassment is a problem in other campuses.
Now I have to say that since I've seen a report from the Students' Union and have read it through, I was actually shocked at the level of harassment that that report seemed to indicate.
What did it delineate?
Well, the statistics that you gave earlier for example, that erm was it forty two per cent of students perceive themselves to have been sexually harassed, or I think fifty per cent of students perceive themselves to have been sexually harassed, that is students who answered the questionnaire.
Now clearly there are, you know, methodological issues here, who replied on the questionnaire and so on, but there are clearly a very large number of replies, a very large number of students up in the, you know, several hundreds, who perceive themselves to be being sexually harassed.
Now as someone who's taught at other institutions — I've taught at the University of Kent and at Middlesex Polytechnic — I think I was aware of the level of harassment which erm was there in those institutions, there certainly was sexual harassment, it certainly was a problem, but I have to say it didn't seem to me to be the problem that the students have identified it as being in Oxford and I think that's striking and it's something that erm as tutors and as a university we really do have to think about.
Yes, but maybe Oxford's full of of hothouse flowers.
Maybe these people are defining sexual harassment as things that other people wouldn't define it has.
Well I should think that's extremely unlikely.
I think if anything it's more likely that what we'll have at Oxford is some extremely tough women, because these are women who have made their way through the educational system and are tough cookies.
Some of them may well have been to boys' boarding schools and put up with this sort of behaviour 
I was going to say 
in those places.
I think that's true of the women, but of course an awful lot of our young men erm come from all boys' schools and quite a lot of our young women from all girls' schools, so this is the first time, when they get to Oxford, that they are interacting with each other, on a day-to-day basis I should say, and I think that in itself will  they are not sure how to act towards each other and there's going to be confusions.
But I think there's a very interesting 
some of the confusions are going to be sexually harassing.
I think the question of girls, you know, the is a possibility that there are more girls here from single sex schools is actually very striking because one might say that what those girls are accustomed to is being educated in an empathetic environment.
They are simply not  they don't expect the level of sexual tension that they seem to be identifying as a problem in Oxford.
Now one can say well what are we aiming for in terms of the sexual harassment free environment, and I think that what one would be aiming for is if not the atmosphere of a girls' convent school one's certainly aiming at an environment where women can work and study and interact without the sense of being constantly on display as sexual objects, and, you know, to that extent I don't know if it is the case that a large number of the respondents are saying, you know, ‘I have come from an environment when I haven't had to deal with this before, and I don't expect to have to deal with it’ then we should certainly sit up and take notice of that.
But I think the other incredibly important thing  that you said was about the number of boys here from public schools as well and I think that 
Or all boys' schools.
tragically  yes, or all boys' schools  you know here are young men who have had thousands of pounds spent on their education, and when they arrive in an environment like Oxford they somehow seem to be less capable than other young men of behaving with decency towards the students they are being educated with.
I don't think it's really a question of public schools, except in so far as so many public schools are all boys.
I think it's single sex boys' schools that are the problem.
But I think there is  I mean something that ought to be mentioned  one of the things that worries me is that there isn't here today a man of the type that I meet every day in Oxford who says ‘sexual harassment?
Come on, there is no sexual harassment.’
As the one you quoted at the beginning of the programme.
Yes.
I mean we're talking as if these young women who feel uncomfortable erm are feeling uncomfortable because of something that's objectively in the 
Well, I agree with you.
But I wonder some of them are just not used to having boys around.
I regret that there isn't a man here who would uphold the opposite point of view and it's not for want of trying.
I've rung several of them, and I said ‘well, excuse me sir, but I'd like to talk about sexual harassment in Oxford’ and he said ‘that's not my subject’.
And they were very reticent about  about coming on a programme and airing their views, especially with three women who could erm do more than hold their own.
So I suspect that you won't be talking to these kinds of men, or do you get a chance to talk to the men that you perceive are part of the problem.
Oh, I mean I'm sure we all do.
I mean can you bring it out into the open?
I'm sure we do.
No, but do you talk about the problem with them?
Oh, well yes, I do, and I'm sure Susy  in fact I've heard Susy doing it  and I don't know about Joanna.
I mean it 
What sort of response do you get from them when you tackle them?
It's terribly difficult trying to get from them any acknowledgements that there could be something wrong about making a complimentary remark to a young woman.
I mean the thing that they latch onto all the time is that they think it's perfectly reasonable that they should compliment a young woman and so on, and I do see, Bill, that this is a problem because these men have been brought up like this and they think of themselves as being polite and courteous and, you know, a little flirtatious and doing all the things that actually they were taught women like and is rather nice.
I'm just not sure what the difficult is .
Well the difficulty is that for somebody  a confident women who who can play the same game and who who feel powerful  has a sense of power herself, it probably is fun.
It's great fun, very enjoyable, but for a young women who's perhaps come up from a convent or an all girls' school and who feels very uncomfortable with this person because he's thirty years older and has power over here, it's not perceived in the same way.
I don't think, though, that we should give the impression 
Joanna Innes.
I don't think though we should give the impression that most of the behaviour we're calling sexual harassment takes the form of behaviour that 
Is of that type.
No, quite, quite.
some people might judge acceptable.
Sometimes what we're talking about is people  a drunken undergraduate hanging around in college bars 
Groping.
or yelling at women who come into the bar in a way that even the same people sober might well agree isn't a very acceptable form of behaviour.
I think the other thing about the response that one gets in the college  I think there are really two problems here.
One is do you trust the reply that you get from someone.
When they say to you ‘oh well, you know, surely you don't mind a little bit of flirtation and so on’ I think very often that's an entirely mendacious reply, that they know perfectly well what you're talking about when you talk about sexual harassment, and in the context of discussions in the SCR or over dinner, they simply don't want to have to deal with it and so they will dismiss it by way of saying ‘well, you know, I'm only being chivalrous, or this is the way I was brought up’.
But more seriously, I think, underneath that, there is a question of definition and of perspective.
Now it's one thing to say well, you know, perhaps these are women who take more exception than other women would do, but there comes a point where you have to accept, I think, that there's going to be a shift of perspective, that what women have customarily put up with is no longer what they wish to put up and that I think we ought to be, as it were, acknowledged to have the right or the scope to say we want things to change, and to define or to set out in a process of defining what should be sexual  appropriate sexual behaviour in future.
And so there is a problem of definition.
Yes, I'd like to make one point here, we're talking as if erm the only people who can be sexually harassed are women, and of course that's false.
I mean I've actually  I tried to persuade a colleague of mine that I could quite easily sexually harass a male student of mine, and the reason I could do that, or the way I could do that, is because I have power over him.
Harassment is a power game as much as anything else.
How would you harass a male pupil?
Well, if I erm said to one of my students something about that was a very good essay you wrote, in fact I'd like to discuss it a little bit more down at the pub and down at the pub I put my hand on his knee perhaps in making a point about how good his essay was.
Now would he really feel confident to say ‘I'm sorry, I don't like what you're doing.
I'm glad you like my essay, but I don't like what you're doing’, or would he think ‘oh dear I've got to put with this or she's going to write a bad report on me’.
I mean people put up with sexual harassment because of the power imbalance.
That's why it's so tempting to think that it's always women erm because power is in the hands of men on the whole, especially in this university.
mhm Joanna Innes.
I should be pointed out of the student questionnaire to the  that the questionnaire was directed only to women, so the figures that have been extracted from that relate to women and in that way give a partial picture of the whole.
Well why was that directed only to women?
I think that's quite an oversight.
Well I think we can identify a good reason for this.
I mean I'd  whilst I'd again accept the validity of Marianne's point that sexual harassment can cut both ways, as it were, I think though there is a sense among women that there is something qualitatively different.
Firstly that they're more likely to get it, but secondly that that greater likelihood is because women perceive themselves as being constantly dealt with at the  on the basis that they are sexual objects.
Now that is a large part of our culture, which in a sense gets sucked into the educational establishment and sucked into teaching relationships, and because it's such a consistent part of the way in which women are seen, I think they perceive it as a greater problem.
In some senses you know  when it happens to a male student, he is not  he doesn't have confirmed for him the sense that he is only a sexual object and that this is yet more of the way in which he is always perceived.
I think for the male student who is subject to sexual harassment, or who gets the sort of inappropriate approaches that Marianne is talking about, that is unusual, it's out of step with the way in which he perceives himself, and his sense of what he is and who he is in the world.
So I think there is something qualitatively different when the subject, or perhaps more appropriately the object of sexual harassment are women.
It's doubly destructive to them.
I think again it's a power thing, though, isn't it?
Women on the whole  our culture does leave women feeling a certain sense of powerlessness.
Yes.
And sexual harassment towards a woman does, I think, confirm that in a way, as Suzy says, it doesn't for a man.
Well if you are to have an atmosphere that's free of sexual harassment, then you're talking about an attitudinal change that will reach into many other areas as well, aren't you?
I don't know what sort of areas you had in mind .
Well, you're basically talking about power relationships and that goes into almost every aspect of one's life and one's relationship, and I suppose you're asking men to look at themselves differently too.
Oh I think that's absolutely undoubted.
I mean if it were the case that we got on the way to establishing an appropriate atmosphere in the colleges, one where women felt comfortable and where they felt they could get the most from their educational experience, I think that would have profound impact on people's later lives.
I think it would affect their marriages, their inter-personal relationships, their co-habitations, the way that they deal with people at work, their sense of who they are in the world and how far they can go in the world, and I think that's what makes the problem so serious because it has very, very long-reaching effects.
A decent solution will have long-reaching effects, but the problem itself has long-reaching effects too.
But I'm wondering what indications you have that men are prepared to look at themselves in this light.
Joanna Innes, the senior proctor, you're co-proctor 
None of us wanted to answer that  because none of us think there are any 
You're co-proctor is a man.
Yes, he's a very enlightened man, I must say.
I would have trusted him to be here at this discussion and say much the same things other people here would be saying.
I mean I think I'd like to comment on the way some of the discussion was going earlier, because although it's true that it's largely men who are seen as creating the problem, there are certainly large numbers of men in positions of authority in the university who are very concerned about it, and who have been led to re-examine their own behaviour, and who now comment on how uncomfortable and constrained they themselves feel.
That's not something they're complaining about but their level of awareness has shifted in a way which does influence their dealing 
I want to understand how constrained they feel.
Could you elaborate?
Well, they say that remarks that they would feel were friendly remarks directed towards students they stop themselves from saying and examine and think if I say that will I make her feel uncomfortable?
Well like for instance?
Well that they  any comment on the appearance of a woman they now think erm it's rather difficult to say.
That's a nice dress .
Or erm yes, you're looking very well today.
Even the mildest things can come to seem potentially to have a charge.
Well, but what's the standard by which they should judge their comments.
Is it that would they make the same kind of comment to one of their male students, like ‘that's a nice jumper you've got on’, something like that?
Well people who've commented on this say that they're now aware that they feel unable to say to women students things they would say to male students.
The trouble is it's all become too conscious, hasn't it?
mhm Sure.
I mean the thing is you want to say ‘oh, you're looking well today’ the minute you think somebody's looking well, but if you've got to 
Marianne, you're looking terrific.
Thanks, Bill .
You don't look too bad yourself .
But, yes, I think that there is a problem with the way men are becoming much too aware of this issue and maybe that's just   
I think we have to accept there's going to be a period of transition.
Well some men  well you see some men are too aware.
Would you agree?
Very, very few, and I think those 
No, their all in agreement.
I think there are perhaps one or two who are very, very aware and are making their own life uncomfortable about it, but I think they're so much in the minority that it's the other lot that we should be worrying about.
I think the old point is anyway you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
I think it's bound to be the case 
Well, Okay, what 
that as you move into a new form of behaviour 
Well how are you going to break these eggs?
Well, I think the first starting point is asking men to be self-aware and if one of the untoward consequences of that self-awareness is self-consciousness, then we'll just have to live with that.
In twenty years time maybe they won't feel so self-conscious, but I don't think we should lost sight of the point that what they're getting a tiny, tiny sense of is what women, a large number of women, feel all the time.
Now I'm not saying that two wrongs make a right, and the fact that women have had to put up with this means than men just have to put up with it in their turn.
I think that one's saying that in order to resolve one problem, their may be unforeseen and, one hopes temporary, minor problems which emerge in consequence of attempting to resolve the first problem.
But to say ‘well we may run into erm problems which we can't at the moment foresee, or problems which may make life temporarily a little difficult’ I don't think should prevent us from tackling the problem.
Marianne Talbot.
I think Suzy's right, but I think though it's not just the attitude of men we should be looking at, it's also the attitude of women.
I mean I 
Ah, good point.
That's wanted to bring up, sure.
I mean I would like to see 
You're painting this as though it's a male problem exclusively.
Yes.
No, oh, well no, we're painting it as a female problem exclusively , but one that's been 
That's been foisted on women by men.
Initiated by men.
Sure, I don't think that's necessarily accurate.
Right, no, I think there's definitely some work that needs to be done on the attitude of women.
I mean I mentioned earlier the fact that it might be that people perceive sexual harassment, where in fact the behaviour has been perfectly appropriate and it's just that the person perceiving it is unused to it, but I think that's the minority of cases, incidentally.
erm But I do think that women need to have much more of a sense of their own power, or at least of the fact that they're not as powerless as they think of themselves as being, and so they can say when the tutor puts his hand on their knee or something like that ‘I'm sorry, would you take your hand away, that's not part of our relationship’ or something that just  so they don't have to feel so bad about it.
Suzanne Gibson, now when Marianne just said that women need to be aware of their own power, there was quite an interesting smile that came over your face there.
I'm sorry, I think I've forgotten what I was thinking at the time, erm 
I was just wondering what sort of future you wanted to see for women in terms of their awareness of their own power?
Well I think I feel a bit ambivalent on this point because  and it's quite possible I was smiling because I'm thinking of parts of the report where a huge number of women say that they just deal with this on their own terms, and of course they do.
They get on with it and they get on with life in the colleges and life may not be wonderful but they deal with it, and in some senses they are exercising what power they have, but what they get fed up with is constantly having to exercise it.
I mean I think there are two problems here.
There is a question of powerlessness, on the other hand there is the question that, you know, even if you've got power do you constantly want to be having to police your own bodily boundaries, as it were, and I don't think it is right to ask women to be doing that.
We have to tackle it in two directions, and I think that education is going to be incredibly important in terms of trying to create a more appropriate atmosphere in the colleges, you know, because at the end of the day that's where people spend an enormous amount of their time.
mhm Joanna Innes, the senior proctor.
Yes, I wanted to emphasise the way some men feel constrain before, not because I want to suggest it's now becoming a problem for men and we should be worrying about them, but because you asked what prospects there were for doing something about it and I think if something's to be done about it, and it's a problem of everyone devising new standards of behaviour, it's very important that quite large numbers of men should be prepared to play a part in trying to work out what these standards should be, and there is quite substantial interest in trying to do that, both at the level of the teaching staff at the university and at the level of the undergraduates.
I mean this  at the undergraduate level this is not just an issue which the women students are concerned about.
mhm mhm
I think it's very undesirable that it should be seen as an issue of women versus men, because the chances of getting anywhere are reduced if it's set up in that way.
I think, though, what's very important in that as well is that I know that there are young men in the colleges who are really ashamed of the sort of picture that's increasingly being presented.
Whether that shame is yet moving them to have an impact on the men who they see perpetrating this sort of behaviour in colleges I don't know, but certainly some of the undergraduates I have spoken to feel very embarrassed that this is the portrait of male behaviour that's being perpetrated.
Part of that picture that's coming out about the behaviour of males in colleges has to do with alcohol.
How serious is the alcohol factor?
Well I think personally I think it's a very serious problem, but it's something that we were talking earlier on and asking ourselves in what way, you know, the college or university authorities can set about policing undergraduate behaviour.
I mean if one can use a slightly awkward word like ‘policing’, and I think there is a sense that none of us want to be acting as substitute parents and, you know, policing student behaviour in a way that suggests that they're not yet fully mature.
The other side of that is that I think a lot of dons are increasingly concerned at the level of alcohol consumption and the sort of behaviour that can emerge as a result of it,you know I do sense that many of us think it's a real problem.
Whether we're any way towards finding a solution towards it that's appropriate 
Yes.
Yes.
Joanna Innes.
And in fact the university's health and safety committee has recently taken this up and is trying to run both some sort of investigation and, I think, and educational programme.
There's been discussion about whether the problem of alcohol, and most people agree there is a problem, should be tackled primarily educationally or through disciplinary means.
mhm mhm mhm
And I think that the argument has been that on the whole discipline  the use of discipline simply to punish drinking isn't going to be appropriate, although there may be forms of behaviour produced by excessive drinking that it's appropriate to act against.
Well one of the things 
Marianne Talbot.
with alcohol  I mean alcohol is so much a part of the establishment of Oxford.
I mean I was shocked the first time  when I went to 
It may be hypocritical of us to police the students .
Quite.
The first freshers' dinner I went to in Oxford — this is where the  the people who've just come up erm are introduced to college life and so on— erm the amount that's allocated to each student is two sherries before dinner, three or four glasses of wine, different wines, with dinner and then something or other — port — after dinner.
I mean you're looking there at eight or nine units of alcohol in one evening, and that's the establishment.
We give them that.
It's hardly surprising that they then think it's a perfectly normal thing to consume eight or nine, ten units of alcohol a night in the pub at the bar.
I think it's true to say that we give it to them and we also drink it ourselves.
Well, yes.
I mean I think that does  you know in honesty one has to recognize that alcohol is a very  major part of Oxford life in some ways, you know for many of us.
I think the difficulty is, though  I mean I remember getting blind drunk as a student, and I loved it.
I mean when you're dealing with alcohol it's not something that we can all agree has no benefits either.
But when you loved it, didn't you  I mean I know I did when I was a young person first drinking erm I definitely had the feeling that if I was drinking to excess I wasn't doing the right thing, whereas the impression we give in Oxford that drinking to the excess is perfectly acceptable behaviour.
mhm mhm
Suzanne Gibson, you mentioned earlier that you didn't like to use the word ‘policing’.
mhm
Well that article you referred to at the very beginning of the programme in the Observer, the final part of that article went something like this erm ‘this article is not intended to accuse individuals or colleges.
Most colleges it seems contained people made unhappy by sexual harassment, who find little or no support from the people charged to provide that support.
It also seems that the University of Oxford should break the tradition of centuries and take responsibility for what its members do to one another’, and I think that's called ‘policing’.
Well, no, I don't agree with you.
I mean I think that what that article is directing, you know, it's main thrust towards is the importance of providing support and the importance, I think, of providing an avenue whereby people can deal with those sorts of problems.
Now I think it also is important that we recognize that as a university and as colleges we have a responsibility for the sort of environment, the education environment, that we provide our students, but I think we also have to remember that these students are eighteen years old when they come up, they are twenty one when they graduate, and many of the students are older than that, they are graduate students and they are young adults.
They are people who are old enough to vote.
They are people who are old enough to go to war, and I think that there is a difficulty, you know, a major amoral difficulty or ethical difficulty in attempting to continue to treat young people as if they were still living at home and were not young adults but were really children.
I think it's a very, very difficult line to tread and I think it's one that the university is clearing thinking about.
I'm not saying that we should ignore 
What advice would you give the university?
I mean where do you think that line should be drawn?
Well for my own part I think that one can educate students as far as possible in terms of what appropriate behaviour is, and I think that you can police students with disciplinary measures when it's absolutely clear that when they know what the inappropriate behaviour is they nevertheless make a choice that they're going to move beyond those boundaries of appropriateness.
But I think that to allow those two sort of issues to get too inseparable, as it were, to  so that we simply regard ourselves as being in a position to issue directives about behaviour, which don't acknowledge that these are young people who have to learn to be autonomous, then we get ourselves onto a hiding for nothing.
I mean personally I think one of the difficulties in the colleges is that they do still have a sense of being at schools, and when you have an atmosphere which is like school you're tacitly given people permission to act as if they were at school, and so we have a  and that activity may not always be very adult, so we have to find a way of changing the environment of the colleges.
I go back to thinking that the best way of changing the environment of the colleges would be to try and erm  I mean talking again as if it's boys perpetrating it all the time erm boys will stop doing it if women respond differently.
I mean at the moment there's an awful lot of pressure on women, I mean social pressure, to respond to flirtations and sexual overtures in a way that doesn't hurt the feelings of the young men, and women of that age 
But is that pressure that women are putting on themselves?
are not  I think it's pressure that society's putting on the women, I think it's pressure that women are putting on themselves, and also that other women put on women and that men put on women.
So, for example if somebody does reject a young man in a way that erm isn't appropriate in his eyes, he might then go around and start calling her all sorts of names and generally making other men think of her in bad way, and of course no eighteen year old woman wants young men to think badly of her, and so she puts pressure on herself not to reject advances too openly or too obviously or something like that, and the whole cycle starts again, and so  and I think this is the sort of thing the college just cannot have anything to do with, because that really is going too far, that's interfering with the  the one thing we could do, perhaps, is talk to the young women and make it clear that they do have the right to reject advances and that what they've got to be concerned about whilst they're at university is they're academic career and making sure that that isn't affected by harassment.
But earlier you were saying that women who come to Oxford are tough cookies.
No, I wasn't saying that, Suzy was .
Some of the women who come here are tough cookies.
mhm
erm But I think that actually there are very few eighteen, nineteen, twenty year old women who are that tough.
mhm
I mean we all care about how other people think of us.
I mean even at our age we do.
Joanna Innes.
Yes, I wanted to make a point on the disciplinary side, which is as senior proctor the side of things I find myself thinking most about, and this is going back to the question of policing and whether it's appropriate to talk in those terms.
I'm quite keen to make a distinction between what you might call victimless crimes and crimes with victims, and that it is, it seems to me, we want to move away from an older pattern in which the university had its ideas of how people should behave and tried to make them conform to those ideas, towards a much more complaint activated system of response, so that it's the kind of behaviour find objectionable that the authorities may get drawn into looking at.
Now the problem with that model of proceeding is that you then end up with  you can end up with the exploitation of complain procedures for a wide variety of , not all of which you want to countenance, and some of the universities' and colleges' experience of trying to run complaint procedures in connection with sexual harassment has been deciding when to try to cool someone down and when a complaint is someone that should be run along with.
mhm Right.
But I think that's the right beginning to allow these procedures to be complaint activated.
mhm
There's actually a very different  difficult problem with sexual harassment, which is that erm there are occasions when it looks as if it's going to be difficult for a college not to go ahead, even when the victim has withdrawn her or his complaint.
For example, I mean, if a tutor, say, has been sexually harassing a young woman, and she puts in a complain of any kind or something like that, and then he puts pressure on her to withdraw that complaint and she does, I mean does the college at that stage stay well okay if she's not going to complain then we won't do anything, thereby letting the harassment go ahead, or does the college say even though she doesn't want to complain we're nevertheless going to go ahead.
Joanna Innes.
Yes.
I'd distinguish between cases which clearly involve relationships of authority, institutional relationships of authority, from those which involve people whose relationships are social or informal.
I think in the case of members of staff, the university might well want to say certain sorts of behaviour are inappropriate and we don't countenance them even if the person involved in the end thinks she's prepared to put up with it, or he's prepared to put up with it.
mhm
It's in the case of how we police students that the question about where we draw the line and how far we become engaged are most problematic, I think, and it's in that case really that I'm proposing this distinction.
mhm I think the interesting 
Suzanne Gibson.
distinction between attempting to respond on the basis of behaviour, or a response based on whether or not there's a victim, can carry you a certain way, but I was just thinking of some of the discussions we've had in college recently about the sort of behaviour with which we feel uncomfortable, and I have to say that sometimes it would be difficult to identify a given victim or, you know, a group of given victims.
It's behaviour which is, you know, particularly with alcohol related behaviour which is basically a nuisance 
Well for instance, what are you talking about here?
to everybody concerned.
Well, undergraduates getting very, very drunk and, you know, throwing up and leaving pools of vomit around for staff to clear up the next day erm, you know, one might say well are the college staff the victim of that.
I don't know, it's difficult to see that one can make erm, you know, a clear connection if one says well, you know, if the undergraduate isn't sick should we sort of put up with them being particularly rowdy or generally rather offensive, and I think that there could perceivably be problems with attempting to identify, you know, a disciplinary effect  offence rather, as lying within the victims.
But Suzanne, you say that we were talking about this in our college.
Well, you're at New College, now who's the ‘we’, was that a group of women, or were there men who were 
Well I don't think it's just New College which erm you know considers there are problems with student drunkenness, I mean these are conversations 
No.
which one would have, I think probably with any don in Oxford at the moment.
I haven't spoken to anybody who wouldn't say that there is a problem with drunkenness and I mean this is very, very common behaviour and it's alcohol related behaviour.
But you can do things.
You have bars in college, now what's the control on bars and the closing hours on bars?
I mean are you restricted to the same closing hours that other bars are outside college premises?
Except under special licence, yes.
mhm
Yes.
I think there are again arguments about what's the most effective way to act here because it's been proposed  some people have thrown into discussion the idea that college bars might have more restrictive policies, but then it's said actually the most problematic forms of drunkenness are those which involve heavy drinking in private.
mhm
And it's  in fact drinking in a social context in a bar is in itself a form of  itself imposes 
Control.
some constraints, that's right.
I think in essence  I mean many of our students are doing nothing different to what students at other universities do when they go and have a private party in their lodgings.
But I think one of the big differences with Oxford is that a very, very high proportion of students are living in college and so they're behaviour is visible to college.
Now, you know, behaviour that's visible to college is behaviour which the college starts to think about wanting to regulate in some way.
Well clearly 
And I think that's where the problems emerge, that they're not doing anything, I think, quite often different to the sort of behaviour one might find elsewhere, but there's a question of how, as an institution, you regulate the behaviour that's acceptable within your own walls.
Well, we've clearly seen that this is out in the open now and people are going to have to deal with it.
How do you think in the next year or two Oxford university will develop it's ways of dealing with this?
Let's start with the senior proctor, Joanna Innes.
How much longer do you have in office?
erm I only have another month in office.
Oh, do you?
Well, lucky you.
Yes.
I'm at the moment chairing a university working party on sexual harassment erm and what this working party erm intends to do is to try to survey experience gathered from the operation of codes and the appointment of people in college with a special responsibility for this sort of thing over the past few years, to see what we can learn from experience, so I'd want to reserve judgement at the moment on what this committee might recommend is the best way forwards.
We need to gather more information about how things have turned out other than people expected when they created these procedures and codes in the first place.
mhm Marianne Talbot.
I really feel rather pessimistic I'm afraid.
I don't think that things are going to change very much.
I think that it's a very long term thing and until the attitudes of both men and women and boys and girls at schools who come up here change, and that's going to be a long time 
mhm Suzanne Gibson.
Well I think much as I welcome the university proceeding down the road that it is, erm I have a very, very strong feeling that change is going to come from the bottom up, and I think that it'll come from the bottom up in those colleges, like New College, who have got an increasingly large number of women fellows who feel that, you know, there's safety in numbers and we can start to do something about it.
Oh, you consider the women fellows of New College to be the bottom?
I think perhaps I'd put that another way, but I do think there's a definite sense in which change is going to come up through the colleges.
Well, many thanks to my three guests discussing sexual harassment in Oxford.
To Suzanne Gibson, law tutor at New College, to Marianne Talbot a philosophy don at Pembroke and to Joanna Innes the senior proctor.
That's it from me, Bill Heine.
Thanks for joining us.
Goodbye.
Hello and welcome to the programme.
worked with people in the Hungerford massacres, and Elizabeth Howell is on the line from London from a London group called Exploring Parenthood, which organizes workshops to help parents in schools cope with children's feelings about the war.
Elizabeth Howell, welcome to the programme.
Hello, yes.
In the past when wars broke out I don't think there was such a articulated need to deal with children's insecurities and vulnerabilities and problems about the war.
Why is that need to prevalent now?
Well, we seem to be a society that is very much orientated to crisis management rather than prevention, and perhaps we're very good at recognizing our human needs and our children's needs in terms of their nourishment, their physical and intellectual development, but perhaps not quite so well acquainted with their emotional needs to feel safe and secure with the adults around them being in control and able to handle their lives and the world's situation in a mature and secure way.
Well, but what happened during the Second World War when all these children were undergoing much more traumatic experiences then?
Were  were  would you suggest that they have a lot of unresolved feelings about that, or maybe they had emotional scars because no-one was there to give them the kind of hope that might be available now?
Well there's no question but which  therapists and people of medical profession have come across cases of people who have indeed been scarred for their whole lives and  and found it very difficult to  to maintain trust and relationships and  and be able to achieve their potential as a result of the sorts of situations that they endured, and perhaps we're more understanding about those sorts of areas of the human need to  to be able to express anxiety and to feel that to  to express fears is  is not something that's going to overwhelm people that are around us, so that adults who are in the care of children, be they teachers, or parents, or child care workers, can allow children to express their feelings so that they don't need to hold on to them and thereby increase the fears that they have.
But some  well let's go right now to Elizabeth Capewell here in the studio, she's the Director of the Centre for Educational Responses to Disaster.
How do you  do you agree with what Elizabeth Howell has just said?
Yes, I do agree, Bill, and I think another reason why we're more aware of it now is because we've had unfortunately so many disasters in the last oh five/six years and we're increasingly coming to realize that children do also suffer quite severely from post-trauma stress.
We are only just beginning to realize from research just how much this is so.
Well can you tell us about some of the effects that these traumas have on children.
How do they suffer?
I think the research that has been done on the children affected by the Zebrugge ferry disaster and the Jupiter cruise ship sinkings has shown, for instance, that children in secondary schools are actually being affected in their exam performance.
That's something that people can understand erm they also have had difficulties sleeping erm having flash backs, this kind of thing.
erm But unfortunately so often adults don't realize how they're affected.
They're afraid of their fears and they feel that by talking about it the children will actually have more problems, so children, being very aware of the adults' fears, will not talk.
They're very protective.
Sometimes the grown-ups say ‘well, look, this is just not the type of thing I want my child even to know about.
I don't want a discussion about this because it's going to engender more problems than it will solve.’
How do you respond to that one?
Elizabeth Howell.
Well it's impossible at the moment, with the media coverage and the erm information about war and the situation in the Gulf, not to touch children, however careful the adults around them may be, and it's very important for us as adults to not be so caught up, in our excitement perhaps even, about what's going on and all the razzmatazz that may be attached to the sort of glory of whose ever side they may be on that we forget the extent to which children are very much affected by how they see the adults around them respond to what's going on.
Well, what can be done, then for children.
Well, children can be allowed to express their anxieties verbally and to learn perhaps from the adults' modelling around them that to talk about these things in moderation is perfectly acceptable erm but not to do it to the extent or to allow children to perhaps watch the news coverage to the extent that they become over excited and are not able to contain their own feelings of anxiety about loss and damage and death and separation from parents and significant adults.
But they are unable to process this and obviously that will be different for children at different stages of their development erm younger children being particularly susceptible to the sort of atmosphere around them, and if they are picking up from the adults around them, be that through the media or within the context of their everyday lives, that there is something dangerous and disturbing going on, then they are obviously going to reflect that unease in their behaviour.
Yes, I'm  I'm  Elizabeth Capewell.
Yes, I think as adults one thing we have to do is actually trust the wisdom of our children to let us know, to give us the cues to when they need to talk or express their fears in some way erm I mean that's our duty not to stop them talking, not to stop them asking questions, but to be aware of when they may have fears.
Sometimes they don't know how to even  they may not have the language for communicating feelings.
We can help them with that, but, you know, I think if we do repress their need to talk, or their need to ask quite factual questions, sometimes, then in the end the damage will be much greater.
You can see erm one example of this, a striking example, a survivor of Aberfan, she didn't get much help afterwards.
She wasn't directly involved.
She saw what was going on from a school bus.
She had her nervous breakdown two years ago.
She'd survived 'til then, then things happened.
She had her nervous breakdown and relived the whole experience, so to her Aberfan lasted  actually happened two years ago.
So this is what happens if you do hold things down to that extent.
Luckily she's been able to come through it.
She's had help now, but what a pity, you know, then I guess people weren't so aware of what could be done, but what a pity she couldn't have had help at the time.
Yes, I think it's  just to follow on from that erm about trusting children to  to give us the sort of clues that we need to be able to respond to, very often they do that in ways that are not directly associated perhaps with the anxiety that's around, so that they may be expressing their anxiety by just generally difficult behaviour or by wetting the bed at night, or maybe being quite disruptive in their play, or provoking other children, and adults who are able to see that sort of behaviour as useful for information for us, so that we can respond appropriately, not out of anger and a erm judgemental sort of response, but in a way that we can support their anxiety by  by not getting over excited and + and erm responding in a very aggressive way to the very aggression that they're expressing as a result of their anxiety.
Then I would expect that most of your work would be done with the parents of children, rather than children themselves.
Yes, Elizabeth Howell of Exploring Parenthood, certainly that is the case, both with parents and with people like teachers or child care workers, who are in locus parentis for many hours of the day, and our sense is very much that if the adults around children can feel supported and confident that they can acknowledge their own fears and anxieties that they will then be better be able to transmit that measured response to the children in their care and it was very interesting last week, I heard from an educational psychologist in the north of England who said that a group of teachers had asked from several schools to come together to think about the resources that they needed to set in place in order to deal with the children's behaviour, and after the meeting, at which they were able to express their anxieties, they then returned to their various areas and when the psychologist contacted them a couple of days later they said we felt sufficiently supported by knowing that others are struggling with the same issues and that we could acknowledge our concerns about it, that we now feel able to get on with the job of helping the children, and I think that was a very good example of adults finding a way to acknowledge their own anxieties and thereby to increase their effectiveness in dealing with the children that  in whose care they have.
Yes, but those are a particular kind of grown ups and what about the stiff upper lippers?
Well, even  even people who perhaps are not so experienced in doing it in their personal lives can be influenced I think, especially when they are relating to children, to perhaps become more sensitive to that and the children in their care.
Yes, Elizabeth Capewell.
Yes, I think talking about the stiff upper lippers  I think we have to work with people where they are an if that's where they are at the moment, that's fine.
The danger is when they're the ones that  if they're the ones that stop other people sorting out their own feelings and emotions erm and I think in the work that I've done in schools and in other situations following disasters one of the biggest problems has been that those expressing denial or saying that we should be able to cope with this, children are resilient, they don't have these problems, erm they've often stopped people getting the help that they need; often stopped other teachers getting the help that they need.
Well how to they stop people getting help?
By expressing erm the idea that you should be able to cope, therefore if you can't cope there's something wrong with you.
mhm
Yes, and pouring scorn on the weak people 
Yes.
who say they need help.
That's right, and I think it's fine 
But isn't that a general ethos of the way people live in this country quite often?
Yes, I think it is.
I think it's changing.
I think, you know, in the last few years I've really  I think it is changing.
People are talking about emotions more.
Just looking at the kind of programmes you're getting on television now, erm Sunday evening there's programme about emotions, ‘Okay Two’ isn't it called?
So it  I think it is changing.
I think we still have a very long way to go erm but 
I  I find that well we're dealing here with so many complex things.
We're dealing with fear, we're dealing with a sense of vulnerability and impotence and how do you teach grown ups to deal with those issues, because a lot of them erm the  for a lot of them these kinds of questions go to the very centre of who they are, their self image.
Yes.
Because they consider themselves to be strong, in power, in positions of power and coping well, and then all of a sudden to have something like this war going and carpet bombing going on and the use of chemical weapons and germ warfare.
mhm
erm I mean it really must make them feel like the world's gone haywire.
That's right, and I think what has been shown  if you look at the behaviour of organisations sometimes after a disaster erm those that think in that way actually create even more procedures.
They try and tighten it up even more, almost in a subconscious way to control a disaster, and we know that things like chaos and disaster they can't be controlled, they can't be wrapped up in that way.
However, there are things that you can do to help yourself, to help others around you, to actually get some sense of mastery over these, you know, what can be very overwhelming fears.
We can't get rid of the horror and the fears, but we can do something to increase our competence in dealing with it and facing it, which I think is a healthier way than freezing, flying away from it, or fighting it.
What techniques would you suggest?
Well I think  some interesting work has been done in Israel erm, a woman called Dr. Ophraelin erm and she runs a stress prevention centre where she's working right out in the community, which is something, you know, I particularly am interested in, erm empowering people, empowering parents, helping them to recognize their skills, erm just giving them a sense of their own self worth.
The methods that she uses erm, and I think this needs to be done well before a disaster, unfortunately so often people only react at times like this and I think it's such a pity that they don't do it beforehand, but it's working on basic assertiveness skills, communications skills like giving a language for feelings, erm building up support for each other, plus the creative work — getting things down 
Well let me pick you up on assertiveness skills.
mhm
Now how would you encourage people to refine their assertiveness skills?
Well obviously the, you know, the easiest way if you like is if they do come on courses, erm not everybody, of course, will go on courses.
They may not see the value  until they've been on them.
Luckily there are more of these around now erm but to me the community approach is having people that are aware enough, teachers for instance erm others that are erm happy with these sort of ways, just helping people  anybody they meet, just boosting up their confidence, encouraging them to speak, erm giving, you know, praise to each other for a start, rather than putting each other down.
I think it can be done in a very gentle way erm to empower people in every day life.
mhm Elizabeth Howell, is that along the lines that you deal with grown ups down there at Exploring Parenthood?
Well, certainly we believe that there can be all sorts of erm techniques that can be very useful, like communications skills and assertiveness, but our understanding is also that it is not only about the skills that people have it's also about the understanding behind those skills.
mhm Yes.
So that erm if we're talking to parents, for example, about being assertive, we know that very often the feelings behind their inability to be assertive need to be addressed first of all and then the skills that they may want to acquire will fit in with erm a different quality erm of where it's emanating from in them as a person.
Well let's talk about where it's emanating from.
Now a lot of times when people aren't assertive that's because of what — they have certain attitudinal approaches that are ineffective in certain circumstances, or what?
They're sense of self is such that they don't see that they have a self to assert, perhaps, or that they are not valid enough as a person, which obviously must stem erm from their early childhood experiences, and from the adults that surrounded them when they were growing and developing that sense of who they are.
But what do you mean by ‘their sense of who they are is not valid enough’?
What do you mean by that?
Well if we're continually in contact with people as growing children who don't allow us to express our feelings, or who behave in a way that would seem to deny that those feelings of hate and rage and love in their extremes exist at all, then obviously one doesn't develop a sense of trust in what one perceives from oneself, and that erm on erm an accumulative basis is going to result in a person who doesn't feel terribly confident about the feelings and their awareness that they have.
That could be erm manifested in an inability to be assertive in an adult  in adult life.
mhm
mhm So, all right, so you  you first of all find out what baggage people are carrying around with them?
Yes, indeed, and  and at least erm encourage them to explore that in some way.
It may be through attending a workshop in some context or other.
It can be through reading.
It can be in all sorts of ways.
It may also be through therapy that they're able to explore that erm.
What kind of therapy?
Well there could be a whole range of different therapies that would be appropriate, depending on on the individual needs of the persons involved, erm but certainly in  in a therapeutic situation erm one is able to establish a relationship with another caring adult that can readdress those erm perhaps foundations in the personality that were not able to develop appropriately in their early childhood.
So in other words, you're really talking about taking the lid off a can of worms here.
I mean maybe there's an issue about how to cope with war, but that probably is related to fundamental aspects of what a person's all about in their psychological make up.
Well certainly at times of stress erm all sorts of things are revealed and that's one of the reasons why the current situation and the anxiety and level of stress around has resulted in people feeling a whole range of things that perhaps has actually surprised them erm and therefore it's not surprising that children are equally filled with all sorts of the mixed emotions about what's going on.
mhm
Sorry, did you 
No, that's all right.
Elizabeth Capewell.
Yes, I think I agree with everything that Elizabeth said, and I think this is why erm  one of the things I very much feel is that it has to start with the schools, as well as at home, of course, when children are young.
erm and I would like to think that in spite of all the pressures that you have in schools now with National Curriculum and everything else, there will still be space for children to be able to express emotions.
At the moment they, of course, may be expressing quite strong emotions.
It would be nice to think that this is allowed, that children are allowed to play out their fears and their feelings erm but I do believe it's when they're young that we need to start building up this self esteem and, you know, giving them permission if you like to talk quite comfortably about emotions.
Well it seems like that's hoping for pie in the sky, though, because there's first of all not enough money, and I don't think that teachers are that good at  well talking about their own emotions, and I asked the Oxfordshire County Council Education Department to send someone along to this programme, and they said ‘I'm sorry, there's no-one to send’.
mhm
Now they may have their own reasons for that and it may be difficult for them to send someone at this precise moment, but I don't think that they're necessarily geared up to dealing with the sorts of things that you want them to deal with.
Elizabeth Howell, how serious is this that erm  it doesn't seem to be such a high priority on the curriculum?
Well I  I do think that varies and I think there is some excellent practice in many schools with teachers who are both very good at doing this sort of thing and put great value by it erm perhaps in their individual style, rather than as part of the curriculum erm but certainly there does seem to be a lack of awareness, and certainly where it comes to providing the funding for that, to bring into the school curriculum the sort of understanding about human development and erm aspects of emotional life which affect all of us throughout our life experience and affect our ability to perhaps erm enter into erm adult life with the sort of confidence and erm capacity for developing our potential that we would like all of our coming generation to be able to have.
erm its  but  I think to say that it isn't happening in schools is a bit unfair, because I do think it does happen in many schools erm and  but there's a great deal of work to be done.
Yes, well erm I'm joined now by Frankie Rickford.
Welcome to the programme Frankie.
Ffr Hi.
You wrote and article for the Guardian recently called ‘Not in Front of the Children’, and I'd just like to share with people the last two paragraphs.
You say all the parents I spoke to said they had tried not communicate their own fears to their children, but some felt unable to reassure them convincingly.
A mother of three said she had tried to comfort her very frightened eight year old son, and this is a quote, ‘he turned round and said ‘but how can everything be all right, mum, people are going to start letting off bombs at each other , aren't they?’
What can I say, he's seen the news, he reads the paper, how much reality do you show them and how much do you protect them.
You want to make their lives secure and warm and loving.
To be honest, I can't bear to think about what might happen myself.’
You seem to have quite a large sense of pessimism about how to deal with this problem, Frankie.
Well, I mean I suppose erm I feel as a parent myself that it's not possible to make tolerable for children a situation which is in fact humanly intolerable.
erm I find  I'm not sure that any of us can erm cope with what's going on at the moment in the Gulf without having just ways of distracting ourselves, erm and I think that perhaps might be more of a problem for adults than it is for children, in the sense that erm most of us have access to more information than most children do erm and more information about what death means, and what suffering means, and what pain means, than erm most children who have been brought up in this country.
But you talk about drawing that line between sharing things with them and protecting them.
Well where would you protect children?
Well I mean one of the women I spoke to that I mentioned in that piece felt strongly that schools were laying too much on children in terms of taking responsibility for how the world is, and she erm mentioned in particular erm the kind of ecological issues that lots of schools and teachers are taking up now and erm children are becoming involved in projects for, you know, recycle this that and the other and there's a book, isn't there, ‘The Children's Green Guide’ or something.
She felt that it wasn't children's job or children's responsibility to look after the world, it was our job, and that it was not fair to make children feel responsible for doing that erm I mean that seems to me to be a legitimate viewpoint and erm but it's one of many and I mean other people may feel that in order to save the planet, or indeed prevent wars in the future, it is important to expose children to the dangers of, you know, the current situation.
Well, Elizabeth Howell.
mhm Yes.
There is a difference, I think, between making children feel responsible for righting the wrongs  of the world that we as adults have created, but at the same time to be able to enable them to think constructively as to what they can do.
I mean it is true that this is adults' business, as it were, and that children are not in a position that they can take the sort of action that is going — certainly in the Gulf situation — to effect a change.
I think that might be slightly different in terms of the environment, but nonetheless I think there is a way of encouraging children to think about and to be thoughtful about the sorts of choices that we make in life and the effects of our behaviour, without overwhelming them with the sense that it in fact is their responsibility.
But in a sense it is part of their responsibility.
It will be in the future, indeed.
Well it is now in a way, I would suggest.
I mean starting from the way children go to school in the morning — they expect their parents to take them quite often, and to contribute to pollution.
Well maybe it would be good if these children took on board that they can do something right now.
They aren't powerless.
Well I think that is true, perhaps, as I have said, in terms of the ecological situation, but I think to translate that level of expectation to the situation vis-a-vis the Gulf is another matter altogether.
I mean it's the difference between taking effective action where one can and being able to decide where one can take  or where one can encourage children to take effective action.
Well how about this?
I think the children can do things like for instance this letter, I'll read it to you.
It says ‘Dear President Bush, How are you?
We are seven, but we think that the war is not necessary.
We think that the money for the war should be used for homes for the homeless.
Please, we're scared.
You may not listen, but give it a thought.’
From Gina and Hunter, Manhattan Country School.
Yes, I mean that sort of action, of course they can take, and I think you're referring to the letter that was in the article that Suzy Orbath wrote erm a couple of weeks ago in the Guardian.
Indeed, and to allow them to take that sort of action that they feel allows them, or enables them to express what they're feelings are , but to assume that they can take the sort of action that we as adults have not been able to take, i.e. to find different ways and more mature ways of resolving conflicts is putting expectations on children that we as adults haven't been able to achieve ourselves.
mhm Elizabeth Capewell.
Yes.
I mean a thought strikes me erm, you know, maybe this is very much to do with the war.
erm there is criticism that erm we only went into this war because of oil interests.
We all, most of us, drive cars, you know, in that sense is there some sense of guilt around that in some way we are contributing to the war.
That's just a though.
The other thing that I'd like to go back to.
This idea that protect children, not tell them about what's happening, I mean if anybody can protect them to that extent when even Neighbours is put at a different time on the television, you know, erm that somehow we make them warm and secure by not telling them, to me that is making them dependent and unable maybe to cope later on in their lives.
I feel that it's about creating the warmth and security at home, in school, wherever they are, from outside to help build up their sense of warmth and security from within, and to enable them to learn how to deal with some of these issues so that they can cope with the difficulties of life when they grow up.
We can start now.
It's now overloading them.
Obviously we don't want to expose them to more than they can take.
This is where we need to listen to what they're asking and what they need, and give them enough to satisfy them.
Sometimes as adults  if a child for instance asks the question ‘what is death’ it is very easy to go into quite a long diatribe about life and death and get really profound, whereas in fact all a child may be wanting to know is how do you know if somebody's dead, how can you tell the difference between somebody being dead and somebody being asleep?
Often we put more onto it than they're actually wanting to know.
Yes.
One of the problems I have with what you've all been saying so far is that you've talked about encouraging a sense of warmth and security, well maybe we ought to confront the fact that the world is not a warm and secure place and deal with those kinds of issues, and say  and put it squarely before children.
Yes.
And say ‘look, part of growing up means that you're going to have to deal with nastiness’
Yes.
‘and with very awkward choices’
Yes.
‘and what do you do’.
What do you think about that?
Elizabeth Howell.
I think  I think this war in particular is an example of how complex situations are and it's an opportunity in a way for us to show to our children that there are different views involved here and different positions will be reflected, perhaps, amongst the children and the community in which they live, that we don't all in this country hold perhaps the same view, and even those that have one particular stance have very mixed feelings about it.
That war may be bad, but this is a just war, or whatever.
I think it's a very complex situation and we as adults need to  to show our children that we can  we can hold onto some sort of measured response within the complexities of what they and we are coming across.
mhm Frankie Rickford, how do you respond to that?
erm well I mean I think there's a problem for adults as well as children in that we  I don't think it's helpful to cover ourselves in guilt about erm what happens to the suffering that other people experience, arguably erm in order to maintain us in the living standards, you know, we've learned to expect, but at the same time I think that the situation in the world is only tolerable to us psychologically because on some level we convince ourselves that erm those people who are starving and those children who are in a hysterically  trying to keep themselves out of the way of shrapnel and hiding night after night in freezing cold shelters in Baghdad are not really people and not really children in the same way that we're people and our children are children, and don't feel things in the same way.
I mean I think there's the same problem with children in a sense, I mean, you  you talking about confronting them with the realities of the world and I suppose I  perhaps if we  if we did expose ourselves to the erm to the true meaning of what's going on in the world, we couldn't handle it psychologically without stopping it, without doing something about it.
I mean I think  it's bot of a parallel with the business of kind of giving money to charity to  to help people who haven't got enough to eat.
I mean, you know, if you see an advert in the paper that tells you that every fifty pence you spend is going to save a child's life by providing it with Diralite or providing it with food that it needs for a money, or something like that, I mean how can you justify keeping any fifty pences at all yourself?
I mean there's no doubt that in human terms that child needs that fifty pence more than you do, but we don't because I mean there's a level in which we can't because we have to somehow psychologically protect ourselves, and I believe we do do that by convincing ourselves that somehow people out there are not people in the same way that we are.
Well, all right, Frankie, I'd just like to get Tony's view on this.
Tony, you're joining us from Freeland, and your views.
Well you were just talking about children erm my feeling is that we're all children, there is no division between being a child and an adult and I think that they can accept a whole lot, but there's a whole lot of adults that can't accept the shocks that are happening today and they put them into their subconscious and unfortunately it comes out in so many other ways — it comes over as a neurosis or as a mental disorder at some later date.
Yes, so you believe that there's basically not much difference between a child and a adult?
Well we're all children.
It's a recent manifestation that we are children, or there are such things as children.
A little while ago children were expected to be down in the mines and underneath textile machinery, so they weren't actually treated as children, they were erm wager earners at a very low age, as soon as they could be walking they were doing a job, so I feel that we're all children in fact, there is no great division between being a child and being an adult, and we in fact can't always cope with what's happening and the shocks infect .
I think a lot of the shocks that we can't cope with just to into the sub-conscious and at some later date we then become neurotic or erm mentally disordered.
All right.
Well John is on the line, joining us from Witney.
Hello, John.
Oh, good afternoon, Bill.
Your views.
Well I've brought the subject up before, but I think you've got an ideal two academics there that might be able to answer a question, a very practical one.
Well I'm not sure if I have two academics.
I have three very articulate women.
Let's leave it at that.
Leave it at that, yes.
erm yes.
In Witney we've got a big industrial estate and on the top of a forty foot pole there is a siren that was put up four years ago.
We've sent letters to everybody, the Home Office, everywhere, and  to say why have they put it up in the middle of an estate.
We have to answer questions to our children as to why we've got a siren that's visible for everybody around, right level with the bedrooms, in the middle of an estate.
I wonder if your people there could give a better answer than what we could.
Well, all right.
Thanks very much indeed, John, for your views there.
erm but do you think that we should treat children any differently from other people?
No, because you can't hide anything from children.
In fact I was a teacher and in fact I think you learn off children to be quite honest.
mhm All right.
Elizabeth Capewell here in the studio.
Yes, I think we have to take any situation like this, not just the major ones like war, but any situation that we come across and use it as a real opportunity for learning, and maybe for adults to be able to do the things that they didn't do when they were children, which is why now we often respond as child in these situations.
By opportunities for learning that can be at depth, about learning about ourselves, but also the practical things like what do you say to a child whose father's come back mutilated from war erm how do you write a letter to a bereaved person, and I think children  I mean they are capable of doing this, I've seen it with my own children, with some help they're able to express quite deep emotions, you know, to somebody who's had a bereavement, and if they can learn that now, you know,it's going to be a lot easier later on.
But quite often grown-ups don't know how to deal with someone who's lost a partner 
Right, because 
lost a relative, so they shy away from they, they just don't go up and do anything.
That's right.
And so children are learning that behaviour from their parents.
They learn,as Elizabeth said earlier, you know, we're models and children learn more by what we do more than what we preach, so you know we do have to repair what we didn't learn maybe earlier on.
We have to repair the damage in a way erm but it doesn't mean to say we don't  not do it with our children now.
We can do it in very simple ways, as well as the deeper approaches like therapy.
Fortunately most people don't go to therapy.
Well, you've written in a article, you say by merely acknowledging our feelings we are less likely to pass them on by osmosis to those who are emotionally bound to us.
Yes.
And I  I think that's probably central here.
Yes, I mean that's my believe.
Yes, and erm  sorry, carry on.
I would just like to come in there.
Elizabeth Howell.
Yes, with a couple of points.
Certainly to respond to the gentleman who was suggesting that there's no difference between us as adults and children, certainly there is the child in all adults erm that does respond, perhaps, in a childish way at times, but I would suggest that as adults we hopefully have gotten to a place in ourselves which we are not so much at the mercy of our immediate wishes and wants and feelings that we are able to be more measured in the way that we handle ourselves and our feelings, and therefore in a position to help our children to develop that capacity within themselves as they are growing up erm and erm I've forgotten the other point I was going to make  just following on from what Elizabeth there in the studio was saying.
Let's go back to Elizabeth here, Elizabeth Capewell.
Yes, I've just remembered the point I was going to make erm I've certainly felt from Frankie Rickford's article that there was this myth, adults have to get it right, that we have to know the answers.
We are actually dealing with problems, difficulties, often to which there are no answers, we don't know yet what the answers are, we don't know yet what happens after death, we have different beliefs.
We can, however, get down with the children and start a process of learning, discovery, which can last a lifetime if you like, finding out what different people believe, finding out how other people cope, maybe by just talking to grandparents who've experienced the war, asking them how they've coped.
Maybe, you know, finding out what people in Israel, for instance are going through.
I had a phone call to Israel the other night and somebody who is very experienced in stress prevention, but still she was afraid and just finding out how isolated those kind of, you know, how isolated they're feeling out there, the fear of the chemical warfare, and maybe now I'm able to write to her to reduce some of that isolation.
Maybe, you know, we can get in touch with other people out there in some way.
It helps our children to know that they're doing something for those children.
It will help the children out there and the adults.
Divert children, in a sense, but give them a feeling of power at the same time.
Yes, I don't think it's just diverting , again it's great learning in finding out about what those children are experiencing, learning how to express it 
Well I suppose I meant divert them from  from only a selfish view of fear.
Oh, well yes, finding out what other people are feeling as well, because that  that makes it less erm worrying for them.
I think they're often afraid that they're the only ones feeling that way.
Yes.
They learn  they'll be learning that other people react in different ways.
They can also learn that there are lots of ways that people have of coping with these things, and thereby increasing their, you know, coping strategies — technical term — but their ways of handling things.
Yes, I'm wondering, though, what practical advice people can take away from this programme.
Elizabeth Howell, what practice advice would you like to leave with people?
erm I  I think that being able to acknowledge for themselves — the adults — for them to be able to acknowledge to themselves that this is a very stressful time, that erm  that children may be needing that extra bit of sensitivity erm in terms of how we respond to their behaviour, which may be very erm connected with the general level excitement and  and stress that I think we as adults are feeling, and certainly that are being picked up from the media.
mhm, but what techniques would you leave with people?
erm I think in terms of techniques is  is  is a level of awareness  really, to be able to respond to children erm with their curiosity and with their erm expressions of anxiety erm in a way that makes it all right for them to be feeling the way they are, and I don't think it's simple as just saying a technique, I think it's  what we can offer as adults comes from an inner awareness that we have as adults, that we can convey to our children, because it's not just the techniques, or the behaviour, or the words that we use, but it's those feelings behind the words.
mhm All right, and Frankie Rickford, what would you like people to be able to  to be empowered to do as a result of listening to three women talk about this issue?
I don't know if I've got any answers to that really.
I mean I suppose I agree that erm 
But do you have any children?
Oh, yes.
I do, yes.
And how do you cope?
Well my children are quite young and I just try to give them as accurate information as I can.
I mean I'm  I mean for me the issues is avoiding guilt tripping them, but at the same time erm I want them to know erm that they are real children who are being really affected and hurt and damaged and losing their parents as a result of this war, and that is a hurtful thing to know.
And how do your children respond when you say that?
Well, they are interested and they play games around it with their friends.
I mean I think that's extremely important to allow children to erm you know play things out in the best way that they  which is in a sense their way of coming to terms with things erm and to answer their questions as honestly as I can and to admit it when I don't know the answers erm and also, I mean in our family we've taken various actions to try to stop the war and we've, you know, taken part in demonstrations and written letters and erm 
Has the way that you've dealt with your children's anxieties brought you closer to them?
Well I suppose it has in a sense, yes, it's enabled us to both confront the fact that  that I'm not all knowing and that I'm not all powerful, which I mean was  because my children, as I say, are still quite young, which is something new for them, I suppose, as well as something new for me.
All right, and Elizabeth Capewell, here in the studio.
I suppose  well my children would say my answer to everything is to say to them breathe, you know, and erm you know just do very simple relaxation if nothing else, and then that allows you maybe to start looking at other things, but to get to the state where you can begin to look at things without the fears and emotions getting in the way.
Allowing  giving them time, I mean maybe this is what we should be, you know, hopefully we'd be doing this anyway, but just using  what we use in our family anyway to talk  to, you know, as them questions.
If they come up with a question maybe just find out what's being it erm not just reaction to a particular behaviour, but asking them how the feeling, you know  maybe pointing to the bit in their body that's actually feeling butterflies or whatever and trying to help them to express the fears and, more importantly, to make them concrete in terms of play, drawing, or acting it out.
Well many thanks to my three guests.
To Frankie Rickford, a journalist on the Guardian, to Elizabeth Capewell, director of the Centre for Educational Responses to Disaster, and to Elizabeth Howell from Exploring Parenthood, which organizes workshops to help parents and schools cope with children's feelings about the war.
That's it from me, Bill Heine.
Thanks for joining us.
Goodbye.
Hello and welcome to the programme.
Today we'll be talking about the big budget decision of yesterday, when the Oxfordshire County Council met to agree on a budget that will affect all of us here, especially people in the education services and the social services.
The budget was basically an agreement between the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats, and the Labour group didn't seem to get much of a look in at all.
Well, I'll be joined later on in the programme by David Waldon, the leader of the Conservatives, but right now Eva Barnes, the Deputy Leader of the Labour group is with me, and John Cochrane from the Liberal Democrats is here.
First of all, many people have been asking me on this programme in the past what credentials you people on the Council have for setting a budget.
You're dealing with millions of pounds, you're dealing with very important parts of peoples lives here in terms of services.
What credentials do you have to decide how those millions of pounds should be spent?
What makes you something special?
John Cochrane.
I don't think we're anything special.
I think we're ordinary people who take the budget decisions very much with the advice of the officers.
The officers will set out what they feel would be an appropriate  what they feel may be an appropriate budget and we will look at those figures and we'll decide where certain elements of expenditure should be increased and where they should be reduced.
We basically are not special people, although some of us do have special skills.
I mean, for instance within the Liberal Democrat group we have got an expert mathematician.
He is extremely useful to us in that role.
I am a qualified chartered accountant.
I run my own business.
I have  was for many years the national chairman of the Association of Independent Businesses.
I have negotiated with government on a number of business issues, so I think I have certain special skills to bring in, but they're not necessarily the skills of someone used to dealing with huge budgets, because my company is quite small.
Yes.
Let me take you up on one or two of those points.
You say you're an accountant, well a lot of people consider accountants to be tickers, those people who check other people's facts and figures, and secondly you presented what the County Councillors do as more or less a rubber stamping of what the officers put before them.
Is that the case?
No, I said the officers will produce figures which we will then very, very closely examine.
When erm the Liberal Democrats made the Council into political balance in nineteen eighty five, we asked the officers for what was called needs of the service statements.
That is an analysis by the officers of what additional funds they felt was needed for them to fulfil their statutory duties.
It is the basis of those reports that have become an annual feature of the budget making process.
On the basis of those reports we either accept or reject and very, very much question.
When you first started on the Council, and how long ago was that?
Nineteen eighty five.
Yes, six short years ago when you started on the Council.
It must have been quite a shock for you all of a sudden to be dealing with millions of pounds on the budget.
How did you come to grips with that?
Simply by doing the paperwork, by analyzing the figures, because my background is one of analysis, and coming to sometimes political decisions and sometimes unpleasant political decisions.
But that's what one learnt.
As a Councillor one learnt the art of politics really, as a young Councillor certainly.
mhm Well, Eva Barnes, what special credentials do you have to bandy around figures that are millions of pounds.
Well I think and probably the rest of the Labour group operate in a rather different way from the way that's just been outlined.
We don't see ourselves as special people and we don't see ourselves as having specific financial credentials, although some members of our group, not myself, may have those, but we try by listening to the people who've elected us and listening to in general comments that are made from outside the council, which is a terribly closed body.
We try to formulate policies that'll meet the needs of the people who speak to us and then we use officers, not to make necessarily proposals on policies, but to help us to work out the financial ways of achieving those policies, so that's almost the other way round from the way that John outlined.
mhm When you first started, though, Eva Barnes, you're the deputy leader of the Labour group now, you've been on the Council for how long?
Same length of time as John, eighty five was my first election.
Yes.
How did you cope with dealing with these massive figures when you first started?
I mean didn't they overwhelm you a bit?
Well, yes they do overwhelm you until you start associating them with services that are provided by that finance with the people whose lives are affected by them, and erm you break them down and obviously all councillors, I think, have areas of special interest and so you become much more familiar with particular areas of the Council's expenditure erm rather than necessarily being very, very precisely informed about every single area.
But as I say, officers are there not to propose  not to propose policy, but officers are there to do the sums.
Nobody expects councillors to be able to do sums involving three hundred and fifteen or fourteen million erm without professional help, just like any business would expect to use professional help for that.
Well another question — it's been put several times on this programme — it's something like this — Councillors have just been considering cuts in budgets that will affect the voters.
Have they considered cutting their own attendance allowances at the meetings?
Let's put that first to David Walden.
Welcome to the programme, David, the leader of the Conservatives.
Thank you, Bill.
erm yes, we have considered that erm I seem to remember there was a recommendation to that effect in one of the group's proposals.
Well was that part of your agreement yesterday with the Liberal Democrats.
No, it didn't form part of it and erm if it were to be done it would be having, shall we say, a political impact, but the sums are of such a nature that they are of no significance in the context of the budget as a whole.
It would be a gesture, I think, by Councillors of recognition that hardship is erm perhaps being endured and that they should share in it, but it would be no more than a gesture.
But you decided against making that gesture.
We didn't really consider it seriously.
Why?
We did not  we think  I think we thought it would be seen merely as a gesture.
I would have no effect at all on the kind of figures and the size of figures that we were considering, and, having been seen as a gesture, it would be really pointless to make it.
That's one way of looking at it.
John Cochrane, your views on this.
Certainly it didn't feature in the budget that we put forward.
I  the sums involved 
And that was the budget that was, in an amended form, agreed with a Conservative budget in an amended form, for the whole County Council.
So it was a Conservative coalition with the Liberal Democrats that pushed the budget through.
So your views on this one are terribly important.
Certainly.
And I think I'd echo what David Walden said.
The reason why a cut in members' allowances was not in our budget is I think we didn't consider it and we didn't consider it because the figures involved are so small that it wasn't a matter which was, as I say, worthy of financial comment, although I accept it has a political dimension.
Although I would also say that I don't suppose there are very many Councillors that don't actually, at the end of the day, being a Councillor is costing them a lot of money and those members' allowances are very, very small and they certainly in my case nowhere near cover the cost of being a County Councillor.
I suppose some people who are in receipt of social benefits might say their benefits are very, very small, come nowhere near covering the true cost to them and their families are having to foot the bill for a lot of what's done, and sometimes, when maybe their allowances are cut by a little bit, they might think ‘erm well perhaps if the Oxfordshire County Councillors had cut a little bit of their attendance allowances maybe I could have little bit more’.
What do you say to them?
David Waldon.
I think erm you've got to say that it is not easy to find people to give the commitment to local government work these days and I think a partial remuneration of the expense that they incur is a very reasonable thing for the public to have to meet.
erm there was a time, for instance, when we had members of parliament who were gentlemen of means, perhaps, and who did not need to draw salaries, erm and it was erm perhaps a gentleman amateur job, but it's all changed totally now and now we recognise that erm to be a national politician is a career and erm it is a career which is perhaps rewarded at the going rate.
erm local government, and I regret this, is probably going that way in that the demands upon Councillors are getting more and more, and for various reasons it is getting more and more difficult to find now in local government what I would call the amateur who  who I think predominated in it, certainly outside the cities, up to nineteen seventy four.
Right, well Eva Barnes, you're the deputy leader of the Labour group.
Now, did the Labour group  what was your position on proposing cuts and the attendance allowances for the Councillors?
Yes, our group did produce  did propose cuts.
We felt quite strongly that although it was a gesture, I don't think it was a political gesture, I think it was a gesture that we as Councillors wanted to make so that we personally would suffer some of the reductions in erm finance that we were going to impose on other people.
We did decide that we should reduce the money that is received by Councillors, and so they were proposals that were made along with other proposals about reductions in members' services.
I do think it's very easy to say that sums of money are not financially significant.
We had some very, very moving speeches yesterday, as we had had at previous meetings, which made it quite clear that a few pounds were vital and crucial to people's lives, so we thought it was a a gesture that was worth making, and I have to say that probably our group also includes people on, as members, as Councillors, who are themselves on income support, so it was a move which wasn't without it's personal difficulties for us either.
But your  your proposal was not accepted and the budget went through with no cuts to the benefits or the remuneration for the Councillors.
That's right.
Right.
Well let's talk about precisely what happened at that meeting yesterday.
There was a coalition, some would call it a cuts coalition, between the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats, to produce a budget.
What is in that budget, who will be helped by that budget, and who will be hurt by it?
Let's first go to David Waldon because I think that you  you command the support of the largest group on the erm Oxfordshire County Council and I suspect that the budget had a great deal to do with your views.
Yes.
erm our main objective  if I could start with education, which is erm the erm predominant service provided by the County, we were concerned to protect the delegated budgets to schools, particularly the primary and the secondary schools.
We see the future of the education service depending upon local financial management, and erm, as I have said, we were very keen to protect the delegated budgets which erm by and large we erm have succeeded in doing.
We could not avoid, we felt, erm a small part of the fixed cost to the primary schools being cut, but that was offset by a provision for additional staffing in the primary sector, which we identify as an important item.
So we had to  as far as all the schools and colleges were concerned erm there was a previous Council agreement that erm increments, that is the progression of Council employees through their salary scales, that had to be funded from what we call base budgets this year, so the budgets of the  the delegated budgets of schools had to erm bear that cost along with everybody else.
What does that mean in practice?
That meant in practise, I speak in the primary sector I think there's five hundred and forty six thousand of the delegated budget taken out, and I will have to — if you will allow me a minute
Yes, they're sitting here with tomes in front of them.
I'm afraid I've brought the wrong one .
Well 
But it will do for answering this.
Perhaps you could adopt ours on this occasion.
I will offer it up to you.
It was a similar figure in fact in the erm secondary sector.
There were erm, let us be honest, erm other what we would call non-core parts of the education budget, which were cut or reduced.
For instance?
For instance erm we reduced, and this was common to all groups,we reduced the amount provided for in-service training for teachers.
That is the training they do whilst they are basically on the job.
We considered that was one that could be afforded.
And what else?
erm and erm 
I think this is going to be a 
There is a lot of paper to wade through.
Savings erm from reduced costs in the school meals sector.
What  what will happen to the school meals sector?
Well they  they will continue, but there will be an adjustment now to the charging of the school meals, because the joint budget did provide for another two hundred and fifty five thousand income for that reason, and erm the savings 
Does that mean children will  will  what will it mean for children?
Another ten pence a meal.
It will mean  yes, about that.
Children will have to pay about ten pence extra?
Those that take up the service, and of course we all know in the school meals service that the take up figures are very low.
Library recharges was reduced, that is the recharging from the Council's library service for the service that they provide to the schools.
That has been cut.
And really one  one goes on.
There are a whole list of erm I would call non-core items, which erm were previously included in the education service department which will now not happen.
Like for instance?
What about social  psychiatric social work?
Psychiatric  they have erm not been  there were proposals originally from the Conservative group to discontinue that service, but as part of the erm negotiations that took place that was withdrawn, but there is a, I think, a ten thousand pound efficiency cut to be made in the P S W service, so it is not being cut, but erm the sum is being reduced, and it will be self-financing out of efficiency measures.
mhm Well that's in general what happened with the  the education service.
Now I understand you will have cuts in the nursery school budget.
How much?
Yes, a hundred and fourteen thousand I think.
Yes.
Plus a certain amount for increments of about a hundred and twenty thousand.
Yes.
The increments  that's right.
What will this mean to the nursery school.
Well I think the hundred and fourteen thousand 
John Cochrane from the Liberal Democrats.
the hundred and fourteen thousand saving is actually expenditure that hasn't  that we can't make this year.
It's part of the capping programme which we just can't make this year, and I think that's erm that's that saving.
It's not being carried forward to future years.
It's a once and for all saving.
erm it's unfortunate, but our 
But what will this mean in terms of people on the ground.
You see I would like to see people at the end of this programme to have some idea, not just of fancy figures in the air, but of practical effects that will affect them on the ground.
Well I don't think that cut will make any effect at all, because the money wasn't going to be spent anyway.
Except that since it's not longer in the budget it's not available for future spending.
It could have been carried over and plans which are embryonic now could have been implemented with it.
I think, Bill, really you  far be it for me to try and teach you your job, but you ought to have perhaps gone back a little bit and wondered why we were all in this position, because you have us in year after year talking about budgets that are made and budgets which improve services, and  and we need to be absolutely clear that this budget does not improve services at all, that this budget does very severe damage to services, that the budget that has gone through the Council identifies nearly eight million pounds taken off service provision erm and that cannot be done under the Conservatives by making erm a budget with the Liberal Democrats have proved that it can't be done, in spite of their previous comments, without pain to services.
Well that's what I'm trying to establish 
That's the background that we're against.
right now.
I want to know what has happened and then we can criticise it, but I first want to be clear 
Right.
mhm
of what's happened.
Now you've set a budget which is below the level of  at which the Oxfordshire County Council would be rate capped, or Poll Tax capped.
Very marginally below that.
How much below?
Five hundred thousand below that.
Five hundred thousand below that.
Yeah.
Why?
Why are you cut  establishing a budget below the  that capping level?
Well we now go into the political debate erm Bill.
We have in the Conservative group always taken the view that Oxfordshire has erm contributed to its own problems to a very great extend by going, in its projected spending for this year, beyond the level set by the Secretary of State for capping.
Could I perhaps go on and erm pick up what Eva Barnes was saying erm a minute ago 
Well I'd like an answer to this questions because I think it's fairly fundamental.
I  you see you're not exceeding what the government is establishing as your target level, you're falling short of that, and that means that some people will not get services that they would get if you had gone up to the level.
It isn't a target level.
The target level is standard spending assessment of two hundred and ninety nine million.
The capped level, or whatever we like to call it, is the criteria that has been established by the Secretary of State, and he has said it is five per cent beyond the standard spending level and he says if Councils spend beyond that then he is liable to introduce his capping legislation and 
But you can spend up to that level with impunity.
Why didn't you?
Well, you don't whether you can or whether you can't.
I mean it's not 
I think that's being, you know, that's correct.
If we spend up to what you described as a capping level, then I'm absolutely convinced we will not be capped.
What we don't know is how much above the capping level we might be able to spend because we don't yet know what are called the deminimus provisions.
We just don't know those.
There may be none.
Last year there were some, so the Liberal Democrats took the view that we could only properly set a budget at the capping level and that is a level at which we set our budget and it was a level at which we set our budget back in December and right through to this date.
We had to, of course, make a one million pound reduction following the S S A  the final S S A announcement which Heseltine made about three weeks ago, but we were always at the capping limit, and I think 
But you've agreed to a budget that is less than the capping level.
Why?
Why?
Because we offered our budget up to negotiation to both the political parties, over the last eight weeks.
Now I regret to say that the only political party that actually entered into negotiations on this occasion was the Conservative Party.
The Labour Party did not enter into negotiations.
Now that's unusual, because for the last five or six budgets have always been Labour/Liberal Democrat budgets.
On this occasion they did not come to us and say right we want to negotiate, although several times we went to them and said please, here's our budget, you know, our budget is now ready, we want to negotiate.
So from your point of view you were forced into bed with the Tories, but why are you spending less than the capping level?
Because at the end of the day, at the end of the negotiations, we were left with the two choices  either the  our budget reduced by half a million, which is point one six per cent— right — that budget or the Labour budget.
Those were the choices, and if we dissect the Labour budget I think you'll see that we were quite proper in deciding that for all its faults, and I mean this is not a budget that any of us in that chamber, you see, certainly no Liberal Democrat, wanted to even put forward at all.
It was a budget that severely cut services to vulnerable people.
We didn't want to do that.
We weren't elected to do that.
We are working within a straight jacket imposed by central government, but our choice was that budget, for all its faults in totality, for the fact that it was half a million less than it could be, and the budget put forward by the Labour party who had totally refused to negotiate on their budget, and therefore we ought to look at that budget in detail to see what was on offer, because it wasn't very pretty.
It isn't quite wrong, Bill, for it to be said that Councils should be spending up to their capped level.
erm the capped level is an arbitrary level, taken by the Secretary of State, beyond which he will restrain expenditure in the interests of protecting the charge payer.
Others can make a judgement that you should be spending less than that, and in fact the first budget we presented yesterday was at the level of three hundred and eleven point five million, which is further below the capped level.
Yes, there have been some comments made 
Eva Barnes, for Labour.
which I do need to respond to.
I'd like to speak first of all about what John was saying about negotiations and then subsequently about spending up to charge capping level.
erm I, as the Deputy Leader of the Labour group have had no approach of any sort in any form from any member of the Liberal Democrat group.
I understand, and it has always been our position, that we have between policy and resources and the Council meeting been willing to listen to proposals.
However, we have made it quite clear that there are certain erm issues erm which we stand very firm on, and we were not interested in erm moving on issues like charging frail elderly people and physically handicapped people for the already fairly sparse services that they received, so we put that, if you like, as a no-go area.
However, though, there were many areas that we would have been happy to listen to proposals about.
What I think we had, and not me personally, as I say I had no proposals, but what I think some members of our group may have had was statements about what the Liberal Democrats were prepared to do, so there hasn't been a negotiation, but it certainly hasn't been a rejection of listening on our part erm.
The thing has gone on in a different way from previous years, and the outcome, as you've observed, although the Liberal Democrats initially proposed spending at capping, they have gone down by half a million pounds.
And if I could put that half a million pounds in context, as I tried to do in an amendment in Council yesterday evening, that is almost exactly the increase in charging for people going to day care facilities.
We are now charging frail elderly people, physically and mentally handicapped people to go to the day car facilities that they so value and so need.
It is equivalent to that plus erm the reduction for indiscretionary awards enabling young people to obtain training and education, plus also erm the reduction in erm access to higher education for people who are educationally disadvantaged.
erm charging also  it would include also that half a million pounds charging increased  charging severely increased charges for home help care.
I put that as an amendment, not reiterating the entire Labour budget, but I asked the Liberal Democrats, who purport to want to erm provide that sort of service to vulnerable people could they not accept that extra half a million pounds as an amendment, and two out of the group abstained, the rest of them voted against that as an amendment.
Well let's put that to the Liberal Democrat member here, John Cochrane.
I  I observe that the Liberal Democrats have made a complete U turn in their previous adherence to providing a steady stream of services to the people of Oxford, and by setting for a budget below the capping level you are taking out of funds available to people things that don't necessarily have to be taken out.
Well first let me say erm in answer to a question you put some time ago, what is it  what is in this budget for the people of Oxfordshire, and all you got from both Councillor Waldon and Councillor Barnes was a list of the cuts.
There are actually some improvements.
If you look at the social service budget, we are actually putting into effect the new Children's Act legislation, which was absent from the Labour budget entirely.
We are working towards the implementation of the new Community Care White Paper, work which was totally absent from the Labour Party budget, and that was one of the reasons why we couldn't accept the Labour Party budget.
There are areas of activity where we will be producing improved services, and so we  I think in this very difficult time we have managed to maintain our erm adherence to the principle that wherever it is possible we will improve and increase the services to the people of Oxfordshire.
Now you legitimately say why this five hundred pound cut?
Well the answer lies in the twelve hours of negotiation that took place yesterday.
We were negotiating 
It's a five hundred pound cut?
Five hundred thousand.
Five hundred thousand.
Five hundred thousand pounds.
Yes, five hundred thousand.
That's good.
You were probably right to ask what qualifications Councillors had to make budgets like this.
We were negotiating with the erm Conservative group and during that period of negotiation we shifted their budget up by two and a half million pounds.
We then came up against a stop, and as I said a moment ago, our choice was between that budget, as negotiated, and the Labour budget, and I've just shown you one hole in that budget.
I could show you some more.
Yes, it's very interesting that, isn't it?
There was an amendment 
Eva Barnes for Labour.
proposed erm and that point the Liberal Democrats went off with the Tories.
I actually said erm after the erm proposal by Sheila Terry ‘well, can we know what it's about.
Maybe we would want to listen to these proposals.’
I was told that all I needed to know was the total spend and that was it.
There was no offer at all at that point of our participating  our possible participation in the discussion.
mhm David Waldon  for the Conservatives.
Yes, I did in fact erm whilst  when we were going through the education proposals erm I did list reductions as John has mentioned, but I did also include the extra valuation for primary staffing that erm has  went into our budget and the Liberal Democrats and I think Labour's originally, which is now included in the combined Council budget.
But I'd like to comment on what erm also John said about the new duties in the social services relative to the Children's Bill and care in the community.
Now Labour have, in fact, under provided, I think, by about five hundred thousand for those provisions, which will have to be done.
And erm I think it's a little bit of creative accountancy on their part in saying that and in fact putting that five hundred thousand elsewhere, and also they have erm done a further piece of creative accountancy in that the provision for pay and price increases they have reduced by one point five million, and the combined budget reduces it by half that figure.
So there is another seven hundred and fifty thousand which, if you add to the five hundred thousand, is one point two five million, which erm Labour, I think, by a measure of erm creative accountancy, have said that they will provide additional services for.
Yes, I  creative accountancy obviously is a word that it's easy to bandy about.
We'd never produce budgets without erm having thoroughly discussed them with the Treasurer and saying to the Treasurer's Department of the County Council, which is a very conservative department I have to say (with a small c); it's not given to wild flurries of excitement and imagination.
We'd discuss our budget and say ‘are you able to support this as a viable budget?’.
That has been said and again I went to see the Treasurer's Department this morning and have been assured that ours is a viable budget.
erm on the social services issue, yes, indeed, we have chosen not to provide for additional statutory duties that the government has imposed on us with no erm accompanying finance.
Our attitude, and I think it's a totally principled and right one, is that we already have services which are statutory services which we do not provide adequately.
Our business is to ensure that what we are doing now is done properly, not to take on board new activities and try and finance them at the expense of groups which are already suffering very poor, or at least inadequate services.
Well I want to hear how this will affect people out there, the voters.
I want to know who's going to win on this budget and who's going to lose.
Well nobody's going to win.
All right.
Who's going to get to hurt most?
Can I  + can I make  I wanted to make general point earlier.
Yes, but this is  this is a general point and I think that's what the people listening want to hear.
Well I wanted to say that erm since nineteen eighty five and constant November nineteen ninety prices, erm the Council, by members' decisions, have erm put in another thirty nine million of additional service provision.
Yesterday we took out I think it was erm seven million plus a little bit out of that additional service provision, so we have put in thirty two million since its nineteen eighty five base in services throughout all departments.
Now education has  of that thirty nine million the Education Department benefited by about eighteen million, and we took, I think it was erm four million out yesterday, we will be back to a net gain of fourteen million on education and social services have benefited since eighty five by about to the tune of nine million and  or eight point six million, and we took about four hundred thousand out of that yesterday.
But David 
So let's look at this in a  we tend to 
But David with  with respect  but David I can just see people's eyes glazed over right now.
Well maybe they do, but we take this  we always take this as a year on year situation and you've got to do a longer term comparison if you're going to get the true effect of the services 
If you compare what most people earn  what most people earned six years ago with what they earn now, they would expect that earning to have increased, so you'd expect the budget to increase.
But I want to know how this is going to affect people in the streets.
I'll tell you a number of  and facts.
Let's get down to brass tacks.
All right.
John Cochrane.
I mean the erm pupil/teacher ration in primary schools will be marginally affected adversely.
Now how  what does that mean?
That means fewer teachers for our children.
Fewer teachers for our children.
Does that mean thirty five children to a classroom, say, or what?
Oh no, you'll probably going up by less than  on average less than one child per class, but the trend is going the wrong way.
You will find fewer new books in your libraries because we've cut the library budget by seventy five thousand pounds.
You will find that there will be one less old person's home, but that 
Which one?
That has not yet been put through.
To be decided.
That's to be decided.
But erm on the other hand we do actually have empty spaces in our old people's homes, so whilst you will have people who may have to move a bit, we're not actually reducing the number of occupied beds in the whole old person's home sector 
Yes.
Remember we're talking about people who are eighty or ninety moving a bit.
You have to have that in context as well.
Oh certainly, certainly.
But we have saved the elderly person's strategic in the Vale of the White Horse, in its entirety, which is well worth having saved.
I mean in other words we'll now have a proper strategy the Vale of the White Horse, which was always an area of the county where the County Council services to the elderly was poorer than elsewhere.
But can I come back to David Waldon's point about this thirty nine million?
Well  well I want to know where are some of the other cuts going to hurt.
What about 
Well a quarter of the special needs advisory teachers will no longer be there.
They're the teachers that help in schools, in primary schools particularly, but in schools where teachers  where children have special learning needs.
A quarter of them will no longer exist in the budget.
Well what's going to happen when these twenty five per cent leave?
Well I didn't propose that cut, so I'm not able to say.
What will be the effect of this.
Well we  yes, this applies to primary schools only.
It erm doesn't apply to secondary schools or 
All right, let's talk about primary schools.
What will be the effect.
We believe ultimately that there is a case for the further development of budget in this case, and for the schools themselves to decide the levels of erm special needs advisers that they will want.
But we still believe that even with this twenty five per cent lessening that there will be a sufficiency in the headquarters of the Education Department for advice to be given as is needed by the primary schools for the special needs.
So you think that this twenty five per cent was fat on the bone and wasn't needed before?
I'm not saying that, but I still think it is still  a tolerable service will be provided.
mhm It's interesting, because the two schools  I'm  I'm the governor, as all County Councillors are, of schools, and of two primary schools, and the special needs advisory teachers were the things that were at the top of the list to be saved by both my schools.
Which schools were they?
St. Barnabas School in Jericho, and West Oxford Primary School.
erm the work that they do erm is absolutely vital.
It's a resource erm that is needed in order to provide children with a whole variety of learning problems with specialized teaching, with specialized education, and we think in the Labour group that it is a tragedy that those needs are not going to be recognised.
I'd like to come in 
John Cochrane from the Liberal Democrats.
just come in there because we've found the response to the SNAS service was a little patchy.
There were some people, some schools, who said ‘yes, it's absolutely vital, we just could not get on without it at all’ and there were others who were questioning whether that was money spent the best way for special needs.
erm certainly the message coming back to us when we went out to consultation on this was not absolutely one hundred per cent by everybody in education that this was a service which had to be  had to have no cuts whatever.
Yes, I don't think you'll ever get unanimity on something like this.
Certainly five per cent.
No, no, but these  these  this was the answers by the professional in the field, not about the answers from the general populace.
We're talking about the answers from the professionals in the field.
What about teachers' salaries?
Let's move on just a bit.
Any optimism there for teachers' salaries to go up?
Well they  they are provided for erm.
The agreement has now been reached and erm that is provided for in the amount the Council has for pay and price increases, and when we  yesterday the Council agreed to cash limit it's inflationary provision that was exclusive of teachers' and lecturers' pay, so that is secured, the cost is secured.
Yes.
Let's look at erm funding for sixth forms.
Will there be cuts there?
John Cochrane from the Liberal Democrats, any views on that one?
I think 
They're going back to their big tomes here.
Yes.
I'm sorry, it is difficult to keep all these things entirely in one's mind erm 
It's particularly difficult for those of us who didn't negotiate this budget, who now have to try and find what 
Fixed costs for 
Sixth forms have removed 
for sixth forms has been  are being  are reduced.
Yes.
Yes.
That is right.
Well what will that mean to the sixth forms then?
That means that there will be less fixed costs.
In other words, if you have a sixth form in a school you get so much  so many thousands of pounds because you've got a sixth form.
Yes.
And so many pounds for each sixth former you have.
Right.
We are reducing the fixed cost element, not the pupil element.
The fixed cost element.
What will this mean in terms of provision for people?
It will mean that there will be a reduction in the amount of money that that school will have to run its sixth form, just as there is a reduction in the amount of money that a primary school is going to have to run its school.
So you may have a poorer selection of subjects on offer.
You may have less up to date books.
So it will go that far.
It might even limit the amount of subjects on offer?
For those forms  for those schools that have sixth forms, yes, but there are other ways of providing sixth form education within the County.
For instance, the Henley College provides a sixth form education in that part of the county.
That isn't affected by this particular cut and erm there is 
Yes, that is not the whole county, of course.
but there is that level and kind of education provided in the other Colleges of Further Education, and likewise it would not affect them either, so I don't think we're talking about necessarily a major part of the sixth form provision in the county.
Oh, we're talking about sixth forms, Bill, and we're talking about all schools which have sixth forms and you're conscious that there are rather a lot of schools with sixth forms in the county and who will feel that it is a significant change.
Well what about the teachers, the effect on the teachers in these sixth forms.
I mean what about their morale.
What will this do to that?
Well I can't say that everybody's going to be dancing in the streets, those who are teachers in the sixth forms in the schools that will be affected, but I think again you've got to have a look at the overall and longer term provision of these things.
There's  it will still enable them to provide a tolerable service, and when it is a question of assessing priorities in any kind of cash limitation exercise you've got to look at your priorities.
We believe that in education we have retained the core provision for the education service and we have to look at what we will call the peripheral areas to to see where savings and reductions have to be made.
It really is incredible that we talk about sixth form education, the education of our young people between sixteen and nineteen, as a peripheral area.
Well it may be incredible, Eva, but in your own budget you have removed  you reduced the fixed cost element by fifty percent for sixth forms.
By fifty percent, but I certainly wouldn't be  I certainly wouldn't be referring to them as a peripheral area.
Discontinue  discontinue fixed costs for sixth forms.
I certainly wouldn't refer to them as a peripheral area, that was 
Well then why do you reduce it?
The fixed cost provision is not the major part of the funding of the sixth form, there are other parts of it.
mhm Well let's talk about 
Okay, let's  John said why did I reduce it and you haven't, I have to say, really explained to people why we are doing what we are doing now, why we aren't here discussing why there's another half million in the budget.
Why are we discussing why there's — eight million is it?— out of the budget provision, something like that.
We really do need to look at the Bill 
All right.
because it must be incomprehensible to people who are already paying very high Poll Taxes.
All right.
Why?
Well, it's because the Poll Tax is designed and the whole load of legislation that goes along with it, to increase the burden of erm payment on local Poll Tax payers.
There's been a shift over the last six years from government funded  government grant supported provision to Poll Tax ratepayer provision of these services.
mhm
And this is exactly what we're actually experiencing now, and this is why people in Oxfordshire are going to pay more money for poorer services.
It is direct consequence of the imposition of the Poll Tax.
Not entirely.
John Cochrane, from the Liberal Democrats.
Not entirely that because it is also to do with the mechanism by which government grant is distributed.
Government grant is distributed through a mechanism which is now called the standard spending assessment, an awful word, or phrase, but it is absolutely vital, and if you look at the standard spending assessment given to this county the government is saying we ought to be able to provide all the services for a total cost of eight hundred and seventy nine pounds per charge payer.
Now if you look at the figure for, say, Westminster, which is a London Borough much in the news in these matters, you will see that the government is saying that they can have a standard spending assessment of seventeen hundred and twenty seven pounds per charge payer.
Now let's translate that into reality.
It means if we had that spending assessment and our costs, instead of the listeners getting a bill for four hundred pounds in their letterbox in May they would get a cheque for over five hundred pounds.
That is the extent of the distortion in the government, the way the government issues the grant money.
We get virtually no grant per charge payer, about a hundred and thirty pounds, Westminster gets very nearly a thousand pounds per charge payer.
More than we spend entirely.
mhm
So I think we ought to go back to what David Waldon said earlier on, which was about the thirty nine million pound increase in the budget since nineteen eighty five.
Why was it increased?
It was because in eighty five we had the lowest spending per household of any county in the country.
When I got elected I got elected because the erm roads in this county were in a six hundred year repair cycle.
I got elected because the teacher/pupil ratio 
Well they still are, it seems.
Rather less because we've just taken some money out of the budget.
I got elected because the primary teacher/pupil ratio was the worst in the country.
And it's going to get worse still.
No, because over the last six years we've actually gone from bottom of the pile to tenth from bottom.
Still nowhere near what 
And now we're heading back down?
Now we're doing a little bit of reversion and it is much regret  by God for five years I have negotiated budgets with the Labour group against intense opposition to Conservatives and central government to improve the services in Oxfordshire.
What I've had to do this year, or what I've chosen to do this year 
Yes, thank you.
was to come to an agreement with the Conservative group because in my view that budget was better than the one put forward by the Labour.
All right.
I want to look at new charges for home care and day care and transportation services for disabled people.
David Waldon.
Yes, erm these always cause erm adverse comment and erm I 
Not without reason.
take the view that erm they are put up by the Council from time to time for various reasons.
They were put up yesterday because of the problems with the Social Services Department, one of which of course was it's previous overspend.
erm I cannot deny that erm they will not be received at all well by those that have to pay them.
But what will it mean to the people?
Well, they'll have to pay more.
And what if they can't afford that?
We 
It will mean a reduction in services.
Well will it?
Everybody says that's what's going to happen, but erm when it's been done in the past I've not had any figures produced that indicate that the service provision has had to fall off because of increased charges.
I hope it won't happen in this case.
One of the qualifications for being a Tory is that you can make comments like ‘adverse comment’ about a cut of this sort erm and remember that you have heard representations of the strongest sort from very well documented people who are going to be affected by these cuts.
Perhaps, Bill, I could help you by using the example that Sharon Mace, on of erm the physically handicapped people who came to lobby Council yesterday, used.
She said that the increased charges to her, and she is totally immobile, except as I understand it from being able to move her head, the increased charges to her would be thirty seven per cent of her total weekly income of eighty pounds.
That just puts it a little bit in context.
No wonder you get adverse comments about that.
I think we ought to 
John Cochrane from the Liberal Democrats.
yes, I mean, in contra-distinction to that, first of all a number of these increased charges, like fifty p for a journey to a day centre, they are standard practice in other counties.
I mean it is not as if we've suddenly gone to totally new territory.
They are standard practice.
Secondly, the Director of Social Services has got the authority to waive any of these charges where it causes financial hardship and the whole mechanism has been put in place to inform people that this waiving  waiver process is in place and to allow them to apply for waiving of those charges.
And let's think about it, there are many people in this county who receive home help service, for instance, who could well afford to pay these charges, and we in the Liberal Democrats see that we can augment the service with the income we get from these charges.
Otherwise 
People on attendance allowance?
No.
Well you are increasing the charges.
People who get attendance allowance get that allowance to pay for attendance, and home help is attendance.
All right John Cochrane, we don't have much time.
Are you optimistic that erm people will perceive the services under this budget as better than they've had last year, or worse?
Oh, the services undoubtedly are going to be less.
I hope they won't be worse in quality, although they might be less in quantity.
mhm And David Waldon.
No, they're not going to be better, except in those isolated cases where the service provision has been produced.
erm in education I am confident that erm schools and colleges will operate their delegated budgets very successfully and erm I think they will do so without detriment to the Education Service.
And erm 
I think we've fairly applied the funds available to 
Yes, I 
the Council service.
Eva Barnes, from Labour.
I think the services will be worse.
They will be worse for frail, elderly people, for physically and mentally disabled people, and I think people will also be asking the Tory and Liberal Democrat groups why they went for half a million pounds less than they need have done in service provision.
Well on that note we'll have to draw this one to a close, but I think the debate will run quite a bit.
David Waldon, many thanks.
David Waldon from the Conservatives.
Thanks to Eva Barnes, Deputy Leader of Labour and to John Cochrane from the Liberal Democrats.
That's it from me, Bill Heine.
Thanks for joining us.
Goodbye.
Hello and welcome to the programme.
Today we'll be talking about the Social Services Department of Oxfordshire County Council, and I'm joined by the Director of Social Services, that's Ian White.
Well, Ian, welcome to the programme.
Yesterday the  it wasn't yesterday, it was earlier on this week, the County Councillors set a new budget for Oxfordshire and they made ten million pounds worth of cuts.
How did the Social Services segment fare in those cuts?
Well I think, Bill, if I was to try and sum it up I'd say that the Social Services settlement was the best of a bad job.
erm once the government announced their capping limits later on  late last year, the County Council knew it was in trouble and back in December the Social Services Committee faced cuts of something like three and a half million.
Well, on Tuesday of this week erm the settlement erm gave us what is in effect erm a balanced budget — a lot of money in, a lot of money out.
In other words, we've been funding from within our own budget new developments that'll come on stream next year and it's a very complicated budget and it contains some quite erm controversial erm subjects, which no doubt we'll go through in a minute, but overall erm, given the total financial situation, I'm a relieved man today.
Well why are you a relieved man, because a lot of people will be a lot worse off.
Well to do that, Bill, I need to take you erm through the detail of the budget.
Way back in December, when we were first rehearsing erm the problems erm we were facing a hundred and seventy compulsory redundancies, the closure of an adult training centre, the closure of an elderly persons' home, erm the closure of a hostel and a whole range of other quite draconian measures.
We are one and a half million pounds better off from that, and the compulsory redundancy problem has gone erm I'd have to explain the list to you, though, to give a proper context, and maybe that's what I should 
Yes, let's start right now.
Go right down.
Well, in simple terms, erm we have to find from a range of measures two million pounds, which will then be ploughed back in to improving other aspects of services, and the big things on this list, and some of the most controversial, are the following.
Firstly the charges.
They've received a lot of publicity erm and a lot of angst erm and they're quite complicated, so I'll go through them carefully.
The first thing we're doing is the County Council's going to introduce a charge for people who attend Day Centres.
Though  that will be a charge for elderly people attending Day Centres for elderly people, mentally handicapped people erm disabled people and so on.
The charge will be two pounds a day, which will include their meal, for which they already pay erm I think it's ninety p at the moment, so effectively it's an increase of a pound and ten p.
But they'll also have to pay fifty p for transportation?
The next charge is fifty p return journey for those people who we transport in and out of our centres.
Yes, so in effect these people will be paying two fifty per day.
Yes, some of them.
Yes, and someone rang up earlier on in the programme and she said ‘Well, I have two children.
They are both mentally handicapped.
I am now going to have to pay five pounds per day for these children’.
It's quite incredible.
I mean where is she going to get that money?
Well this is where the problem of levying charges does become controversial.
I'd make a number of points.
Firstly, nobody, but nobody would want to levy charges until it was a last resort, but if the alternative to levying those charges were perhaps that we had to cut the staffing levels in those adult training centres, then you get a different answer to the question, and I had a meeting about four weeks ago with the heads of some of our centres who've been asking parents and carers that question.
What would you rather have — a charge or a general thinning out of staffing levels — and almost unanimously it was ‘We'd rather pay a reasonable charge’.
That's point number one.
Now point number two is a general charge of this kind will affect different families in widely differing ways, and quite clearly there will be some families who can well afford to pay that charge, and there will be other people who cannot, and maybe the case that you were quoting me is an example of that.
And there'll be a lot of families in the middle, where they're not sure whether they fall in one category or the other, but they dislike having to take their cap in hand and go ask for another subsidy.
Right.
These are very emotional things, very difficult things to debate coolly.
People will feel very strongly about them, but I would say the following.
The charge that we're introducing for day care in Oxfordshire has already been introduced elsewhere in the country.
Now you may say ‘so what’, but at least other people with mentally handicapped people attending day centres elsewhere in the country have become used to paying this.
Secondly, controversially, most of the people who attend our centres receive attendance allowances.
A lot receive mobility allowances.
And whatever you think, and however controversial this is, there is a line of argument that says that is a valid charge against those specific allowances that you receive erm from Social Security.
But the big thing I've got to say 
Well what is that argument?
Well the argument is that if you receive  say a mobility allowance, and if we are laying on transport to get you to a Day Centre and back, maybe five days a week, then the argument is that that's a fair levy against that allowance.
The charge that we're making will in no way gobble up the whole of that allowance, by any stretch of the imagination, but I can imagine people out there now reaching for their phones and probably going to disagree with me.
But before they do, perhaps I can say the most important thing, which is that the charges that we're introducing are going to be underpinned with what we call a waiver scheme.
A waiver scheme allows individual families to get in touch with me and to tell me if the levying of the charge will erm  will mean particular financial hardship for them, and we've had experience of this.
erm last year we introduced a Home Care charge, based on attendance allowance, and a number of families of elderly people got in touch with me and they're were obviously particular reasons why the charge couldn't be fairly levied to them.
They might have been using the whole of the attendance allowance erm to pay for carers, outside of the care that we provided, erm or a member of the family might have given up work to look after another member of the family.
So quite clearly individual family situations will change, and I'd like to use this opportunity to get the message across to everybody who's listening that when we introduce the charges you'll all get a letter, and the letter will say also that there is a waiver scheme, and the procedure you should go through to be considered for that.
I can't say that we'll approve every one, but obviously we know that if you introduce a general charge there will be people for whom you do not want it to affect unfairly.
What will be your criterion?
Well 
For deciding who is exempt and who has to pay.
I mean to a certain extent I have just said them.
People who, quite obviously when they get in touch with us, there are special financial circumstances.
You could make up some theoretical examples.
You could have a family of maybe erm an older carer with a mentally handicapped son or daughter who receives various allowances, but whom the total income for that family is such that it is so low because of special circumstances, maybe the mother has to have special heating, or special diets, or whatever, as to be logical that we waive some or all of the charge.
erm it may very well be that certain family situations, such as the example I gave you example earlier — somebody may have given up work to look after a dependent.
mhm
And in that sense it would be obviously grossly unfair.
Because what I'd like to do is give people a view as to how they can best formulate their letters to you to get the right kind of reply from you.
I can't give a set of specific criteria.
Sure.
Because there are thousands of people with thousands of different life circumstances.
But the general principles are 
But the general principles are particular financial hardship, cases for.
mhm
Particular social circumstances, family circumstances, exceptional family circumstances.
Tell me about them.
Those sorts of things.
All right.
Whilst we're talking about charges, of course, I do need to talk about the Home Care charge, don't I?
Yes, indeed, so 
Because that's also going to be erm a controversial one.
erm the Home Care charge is, in fact, quite complicated.
Just to take listeners through it carefully, erm excuse me, firstly people on income support only will still get the Home Care service free, and that's something like seventy per cent of the recipients of the Home Help Service will still continue to get the service free.
But for people who are on income support and receive the attendance allowance, their charge will go up from four forty five to seven fifty.
And for people who are not on income support, in other words they have means higher than that, but who do receive attendance allowance, their charge will go up from eight ninety at the moment to fifteen pounds.
And again there will be the same erm circumstances that I have just been describing for other people applying here.
We've just finished the first round of waivers for people receiving the Home Care Service, and the criteria that I was giving you reflected those, and so when you get your letter, if you feel that you've got particular financial problems or particular family situations we should take into account, erm then do get in touch with us and we'll process it and we'll set out a procedure for you in the letter that we send.
All right.
Well, I'm just wondering, I'd like to get some view of what percentage of people to whom you will levy these charges, what per cent of those people will probably be exempt?
That's right.
I need to break it down.
I think the proportion of people who we give waivers to on these special grounds will be still a very small proportion.
mhm
But our estimates obviously assume a certain waiver level.
Yes.
What level was that?
.
My accountant isn't sitting here on my shoulder, and I'd have to ask her, Bill, but it's certainly  we don't assume a hundred per cent take up for the purposes of estimating like this.
erm secondly, the Home Care charge, a lot of people will still receive the service free, people on income support only.
I would say for people attending Day Centres, the majority of people will end up paying the charge, or a reduced level of charge, because it's not all or nothing, we can waive part of the charge as well.
erm I mean the object of the exercise, difficult as though it is to say, is to get income, and the reason we need the income is to protect the baseline of the services.
We've got demand for Home Care coming out of our ears.
What doesn't show in these Council papers is that in my budget next year I've got another three hundred thousand pounds worth of Home Care service growth, so if I get two hundred thousand from income from the Home Care, the Council is still putting in more than it's receiving, if you see what I mean.
Every penny of income we get gets ploughed back into erm the service, and it is a way of protecting the service, given the awful financial situation erm that the County Council face this year.
All right, but let me stop you for a moment, there.
I'm sure people wonder what about the administration.
What about your offices?
What are you doing there?
Right.
Last time I was on this programme I think we had the same conversation, didn't we?
Towards the end of last year we finished a review of all our management costs and our structure costs and, as a consequence, have saved a quarter of a million pounds in our administration.
That's before this budget actually started.
It's reduced the number of supervisors and managers in the system.
It's reduced the pay rates  the overall pay rates that we pay them.
We've made it a slimmer, and hopefully erm more cost effective, structure.
A quarter of a million was taken off erm before we got into this budget cycle.
Obviously we are sensitive to the point that erm it would be wrong to have a heavy bureaucracy and all the rest of it when you're having to hit front line services.
I believe we are a forty million pound organisation.
A forty million pound organisation needs proper management, and therefore you do have costs on top of it, and they are proper costs.
You wouldn't think of running Ford or ICI or whatever without a proper management.
You wouldn't want, for example, the heads of our elderly people's homes to be sat in their offices pushing paper when they should be managing the home.
You'd expect us to employ a clerk to do that.
So not all administration equals bad, not all management equals bad.
The other thing I'd say is that the budget settlement that we've got introduces a further hundred thousand of investment in new technology, and this is part of our push to making us more efficient in the way we manage our budgets and all the rest of it.
But I do agree that people out there must keep wondering how do they know that we are as, as it were, as slim as we can be.
Yes, and they have to take your word from it.
Well they can also compare our costs with other authorities if they were so interested.
I mean there are measures of comparison that exist which show that.
Well right now you're involved in a conference.
Yes, that's a staff one.
It's a staff conference.
It's a two day  it's a residential 
Partly.
Partly.
And it's at the Moat House.
It is.
That's a very posh, exclusive, expensive place to hold a conference.
Right.
Who's footing the bill?
The Department of Health.
We get a specific grant, sorry for the jargon, we get a specific grant from the Department of Health for all sorts of aspects of the management of our department and training our staff and so on.
It's about three hundred and fifty thousand a year.
We've just  as I've just said, we've just finished reorganising our department.
We've got a brand new management team coming into place on the first of April.
We have to do some pre-planning with those people, so that they know what their jobs are, how the systems are going to work, what the priorities are.
You say about the Moat House being expensive, well it might be expensive to you or I as an individual, but when you're negotiating conference rates in the area it is actually cheap and very suitable.
It's centrally located.
We are near our offices.
We've got good communications.
We're not out of touch, etc.
It's  we're very conscious that erm the costs that we've incurred we need to keep strapped down to a minimum, but we have to manage a forty million pound organisation and you cannot do this on the back of an envelope.
All right.
Good.
To plough on with some of the other negative aspects of the budget, I've talked about the charges.
We're putting in a hundred thousand of savings from our children's review.
That's the plans that we've had for our children's services, but I'll come on to back to that in a minute.
We're taking a hundred and fifty odd thousand out from a budget we have for additional staffing, and we're also taking 
Now what does that mean?
Well, let me finish.
We're also taking another four hundred thousand out of budgets that we had for planned improvements in staffing as well.
Now what this means is we won't be able to improve the staffing levels in homes that we'd planned, four hundred thousand pounds worth of that, and that is sad, but at least it's not throwing people out of work and reducing the current staffing levels.
But what does this means for the homes in particular?
What it means for the homes is that they're going to have to take a  what we've been doing over the last two or three years is gradually improving the staffing levels in our elderly people's homes, because the dependency levels in those homes are getting very high.
Well what's the average erm age of admission, about eighty seven?
Average age of admission eighty five.
Eighty five?
A hundred per cent of admissions physically disabled.
mhm
One in three and rising mentally disabled.
So, quite clearly we're not dealing now with a population that's ambulant and so on.
They need help getting up, going to bed, going to the loo, bathing, blah blah blah.
And when you have that context where these people need help more and more and yet you're not going to be able to supply it, isn't that almost criminal?
I mean that's a loaded word.
I  erm 
Well but  but somebody may need help and they  I mean if somebody slips and falls.
There's minimum standards and there's target standards, isn't there?
Yes.
Our staffing levels are at a proper minimum standard.
We can cover rotas.
We have two night people on at night.
We have enough people to make sure that the basic safety and care of the residents of our homes are covered.
You say that today, but it's a fluid situation.
People are getting more dependent as time goes by.
You could be repeating the arguments I make endlessly in Council, Bill.
What our staffing levels don't allow us to do is for the care assistants to have the time they would like just to spend talking to elderly people, talking them write letters, get in touch with their relatives.
That sort of thing.
So, basically, you're saying that there are these cuts and that's going to mean the quality of life in the homes is going to go downhill.
Yes, but not, I would hasten to add, dramatically fast.
I mean, I am not playing with words when I say this, but it won't improve as fast as we would have liked it to do because of the financial situation.
There are other things on the list erm we're taking a hundred thousand out of our budget to buy places for mentally handicapped people out of county.
Well now what does that mean?
Now what that means is that we have what we call an agency budget.
We pay for people to go and live in for ever.
Provision made by other agencies, Guide Post Trusts, for example, MENCAP Homes and so on and so forth .
We shan't be able to do as much as we would like.
We have a budget — I think it's about a million pounds in total on this — it's a hundred thousand, so it's one in ten over any one year less that we'll be able to care for in this way.
Now the biggest minus on the list is the closure of an elderly person's home.
That will be in Oxford.
It'll save us a hundred thousand in the first year.
It will be in Oxford City?
In the City of Oxford, yes.
Yes.
erm and that is the only item on the list which will require us to close something that we're doing at the moment.
It will save you how much?
A hundred thousand in the first year and three hundred thousand in the second and subsequent years.
mhm
Because obviously we can't close it just like that.
It'll  we have to run it down slowly over the course of the year.
Yes.
How will you decide which home to pick on.
Right.
We have, as you'd imagine, a lot of data about our homes for elderly people — their occupancy rates, their location, the viability of moving residents and so on.
The process that we'll go through is firstly I, now the Council's made this decision, will speak to the three Social Services Committee spokespersons about which home looks the most logical, and obviously I know which that one is in my own mind.
Secondly, if they accept those arguments, then before anything becomes public I then need to embark on a process of consultation with the residents themselves and with their relatives and with their staff, so that we can explain it carefully to them — what it'll involve, the time scale, what their options are going to be, how we'll go through this process and all the rest of it, all the ins and outs, and then I shall have to then go formally to a special meeting of the Social Services Committee, probably in April, to say that I've carried out this consultation, that this is my recommendation as to the home the Council should choose, and if they agree that then we move into implementation.
And they would be highly likely to rubber stamp your suggestion at that state?
I mean rubber stamp's again an emotive word.
I mean it would be hopefully,.
so far as any decision is logical, this would be a logical decision.
Right, but the way you're describing the process it seems  I get an image of someone gently putting his hand on the collar 
and very firmly tightening the grip, without allowing the person to say I don't like this hand there, I don't like what you're doing.
You see, if you were to make it public now, you would empower those people who might be the victims of this cut to articulate their views and to lobby and to be part of this process, rather than just passive participants.
I think the process that I've just explained would allow that anyway, because what I would do, if I just go back over it again, supposing for argument's sake by the end of February we've agreed which one we think it's going to be, we then  I then go to the home.
My staff meet every resident.
We write to all their relatives, as in early March.
But basically you're telling them that it's almost an accomplished fact and erm they probably don't have too much room for manoeuvre.
To a certain extent that's true.
Absolutely.
The Council has decided to close an elderly person's home.
From that moment in time they will have the opportunity to express their views to Councillors, to myself, to my staff.
We will, when we go to committee in April, say all this.
We'll report all this to the Council.
You're dead right, closing down a service of this kind is controversial and very difficult and has to be handled very sensitively.
Well, sensitively is one way of putting it.
I think erm effectively and with a powerful hand is another way of doing it.
Now how about  there was another place that was due to be closed down.
That was the Blenheim Road 
Yes.
establishment in Kidlington.
That's it.
And that was a Day Centre.
That was a Day Centre for erm mentally handicapped people, and that's got a reprieve.
Yes.
Now why did it get a reprieve?
Because the name was put in the Press early, before any irrevocable decisions had been made, and people there at that centre got their act together.
They did an excellent job of lobbying.
I was quite impressed by what they did.
I'm sure a lot of Councillors were gob-smacked, and what happened is that Councillors were caught on the hop.
They had to make policy on the hoof and they reprieved that place.
And I think that's a wonderful example of people actually having power over the decisions.
I mean if I could make a general point.
Firstly, I was  I too was, if I can use the expression, gob-smacked at the strength of feeling that was expressed at the Social Services Committee and subsequently at the Policy Services Committee as well.
Social Services  the world of Social Services don't have as strong a lobby as the Education lobby, or the Environment lobby, nationally or traditionally, and in a way I think the awfulness of the situation got people to the point of saying enough's enough, and that was to me very healthy, absolutely healthy.
That's the power of living in a democracy.
Yes, to you it was healthy.
Yesterday I had three Councillors here in the studio.
We were talking about budget decisions and after the microphones closed at the end of the programme they commented about that home in Blenheim Road in Kidlington, and to them it wasn't healthy.
They didn't like that one bit.
And they said we're not naming the home for the elderly that will probably be closed.
We're not doing that on purpose because we don't want a repeat of what happened over there in the Blenheim Road, where people actually had power.
Well, if they said that erm 
Oh, that was confidential.
Oh yes, I wouldn't tell anybody.
Of course not!
It's between you and me.
.
These things are very difficult, very sensitive.
I can't say any more than that.
I mean I am a mere officer who advises the Council, Bill, as you know.
. I hardly dare say this in this context, but if we  well now the Council has taken a decision to close this elderly person's home, there is actually a logic to it, which I'd like to talk about.
All right, have a go.
We have been, over the last few months, looking at the distribution of our services for elderly people across the county.
If you live in Oxford, in the City area of Oxford, you have a far higher chance of getting a home help, getting a place in an elderly person's home, getting a meals on wheels, than anywhere else in the county, and between the different areas of the county there are vast differences in that.
Our elderly strategy is moving towards trying to equalize, or even out, those big differences of accessibility, because if you live in Wantage, and I live in Oxford, say, we have a totally unequal access to Social Services for elderly people.
Well how did that develop?
It's because over the last twenty odd years of investment in Social Services erm differential investment decisions were made, blah blah blah.
It's grown up like topsy, and what we're trying to do is to equalize that.
Now what we haven't got to yet in this programme is what's going back into the budget.
Yes, but I still want to stay on this equalizing thing.
Well, yes, that's all right.
I'll answer that.
Equalize down, or equalize up.
Well, wait a minute.
What we're doing  what isn't  what we haven't talked about yet is that this budget protects our investment in increasing services in the Vale of White Horse, which will be Home Care services, Occupational Therapy services, Day Care services.
The biggest difference in contrast on my equalization argument is between the City and between the Vale, and so whilst again it might be controversial, there is a logic, with our backs to the wall admittedly, of saying right well we'll close this home in order to protect money that we've got lined up to come on stream next year.
Point one.
Point number two — in our homes in the City we are carrying vacancies.
Now you might think that's incredible, but we are.
How many?
More than the closure of a forty bedded home.
So we will be able to locate the residents of whichever home we choose within a very tight geographical area, giving them choices as to where they go.
If they want to take the opportunity to erm move to Newcastle, to be near their relatives, they'll have that choice as well, and it's  if we have to make difficult choices of this kind, then it's more — I'm sorry to keep using the word logical, but it is — it's logical to choose this one than to choose one of the remoter homes in the county that serves a local populace where there is no alternative.
So, I know it's a sensitive thing this elderly person's home, but I would argue that underpinning it is a logic.
a) We've got enough places in the City and we can relocate people carefully and sensitively, and secondly 
These are people with an average age of about eighty five?
Absolutely.
And increasingly dependent and probably quite erm accustomed to the way their life is running in the home.
Yes to all those, but don't think also that we're not able to construct a process which does that sensitively, because we've got experience of doing that.
Just aside, we're upgrading one of our elderly people's homes elsewhere in the county and we've had to empty the home and move the people to an empty home for six months.
Yes, that's Stirling's over in Wantage, and you're moving them to Shillingford for six months.
Shillingford for six months.
And we were really worried, you know, what that would do.
My staff tell me that the elderly people have sort of taken to it like a duck to water almost.
It's a change in their life.
It's something to plan for, etc.
So, whilst I wouldn't want to over estimate or under estimate the problem, I think we've got to keep a balance in that.
Could I tell your listeners a little bit about the good news that's in the budget, because we've talked  we've focused on the minuses so far, but there's a lot of plusses as well.
All right, but before you go onto the plusses, let's talk to Janet.
Hello Janet.
Hello Bill.
Calling from Chinnor.
Yes.
Your views.
Hello, Ian.
Hello.
I was just wondering, would you have imposed these very high home care charges if you'd not been forced to by the cuts imposed by the Poll Tax capping.
Well, firstly the decision's the Councils, obviously, not mine personally, erm there would be less pressure certainly to do that erm because, as I've said earlier, the charges will allow us to protect the Home Care Service.
erm I mean that's what I would say.
It would then depend on the financial scenario.
If the Council was getting loads of growth in its budget it might not need to increase its charges.
If we were in a zero growth situation and we still had all this demand, maybe we would have introduced the charges.
But you wouldn't have done it quite  you would have thought about whether you did it, whereas the moment you've been forced to do it because of the cuts that have been forced upon us by the Poll Tax capping.
Oh absolutely.
Yes.
Okay .
That answered that, didn't it?
Is that  that's your only question?
mhm Thanks Bill.
Certainly.
You got off the hook very easily there, Ian.
That's a change on your programme, Bill .
Now go on to the plus points.
Well, I mean the point to make about this budget is I've just told you about two million pounds worth of minuses, let me tell you about two million pounds of pluses that are going in.
Firstly, I've just said, our budget protects what we call our Vale strategy, which is an improvement in services for elderly people in the Vale.
It'll mean more Day Care, more Home Care, more Occupational Therapy, for people in an area of the county who get far less levels of service than elsewhere in the county.
That's good news.
Secondly, I get another dollop of money, if I can put it like this, for Home Care right across the county.
erm and as I said earlier, the income will by no means cover that new growth.
Thirdly, we implementing this year the Children Act.
Now in October of this year this is the biggest piece of legislative change in child care law for a generation and it'll shift the whole emphasis of child care services, not just children in care, but support to families in all sorts of situations, from an old out of date system to one very much where the emphasis is on the County Council erm supporting families and their children.
It'll involve us developing visiting schemes, under eight services, helping families in different ways, improving services for disabled children, developing family centres, and a new specific — this'll  might amuse you this — a new specific responsibility for us to inspect and register the care practices of private schools in the County, and Oxfordshire has got the biggest number of those in the whole country.
We have to register them.
erm I don't know if you remember the Esther Rantzen programme, I think three months ago, where they uncovered all sorts of misdeeds at a school in  I think it was Cuckham Grange or somewhere in Berkshire.
Well this is very much responsibilities placed on us to ensure that the care practices in residential schools, boarding schools, are up to scratch.
So we've got a whole heap, as it were 
Can of worms.
Well a can of worms, or a heap of possibilities, whichever way that you want to put it, but the Children Act in total  we are going to spend something like another four hundred thousand in nineteen ninety one, in the new financial year, which is good news.
But, forgive me, that just seems like it's a drop in the bucket.
Well it's a drop in the bucket in one sense, but it's on top of what we're already doing with our Children's Services, which are very good quality services now in the County.
And it's a step.
The following year that doubles up, and so on and so on.
The second thing we're doing is we've  we are going to attract a lot of money from what we call a specific grant for mentally ill.
We will have new money coming into the county, specifically targeted by the government, which we will spend on homeless mentally ill people, Day Care, developing an even  a much better social work service for people across the county.
Our mental illness services are the real Cinderella services in the county, and by the county putting ninety thousand into its budget it attracts and quarter of a million of new development.
So that's good news.
We've also got to implement the famous Community Care Act, which implies that we've got to set up an inspection unit of all our own services.
We've got to set up a proper complaints procedure, so that people know how to complain about Social Services, although I doubt very much whether anybody would ever want to complain about Oxfordshire's Social Services, and so on.
And that's money we have to spend, and it  in a way that was a controversial decision because members of the Council were genuinely concerned about spending money on what might be seen to be central services, when they were having to face not improving staffing in elderly persons' homes.
So we're going to keep  we're going to try and keep our costs on this obviously stripped down to an absolute minimum.
But there are new regulations which we have to bring in.
Well you obviously welcome all of these regulations, and this added burden on your services, but isn't that going to stretch your already over-stretched services too much?
Again, it 
Why look at new 
mhm 
things to do when you can't even do the old things as well as you want to and as well as you should be doing?
Whether we like it or not, I don't have a choice.
On the fourteenth of October the Children Act comes into force.
From that day Social Workers in Oxfordshire will be appearing in Court.
The Court will have menus of orders they can dish out.
We will have to, by law, respond to them, but you can't see the Children Act outside of the context of what we're already doing with our other Children's Services, as you know from previous discussions we've had and from keeping track in the papers, over the last eighteen months we've been recruiting more foster carers, reducing the number of children's homes, developing preventative services rather than receiving children into care.
The number of children in care in Oxfordshire is falling.
It's bottomed out now, but it's fallen by about fifty or sixty in the last eight months.
And we've generally been moving already with our big investment that we've already got in Child Care, let's not forget that, towards this philosophy of  that's enshrined in the Children Act, which is building up parental responsibility and encouraging and supporting parents containing their own children, rather than being forced to give them up.
Yes, but it's that support 
Yes.
that is so crucial here.
Absolutely.
Do you feel that you're giving the parents the kind of support that they require?
I think the general answer is yes.
I think we have great erm in certain areas of the county we've got real tight problems.
I mean, for example, in one area of the county we've still got major vacancies with our Social Workers because it's a typically problematic recruitment area.
Where's that?
In the north of the county.
erm and we've taken  we've made moves to try and improve that, improving staffing, improving pay rates, blah blah blah.
But there will always be pockets at any one time where we can't give as an equally good service as we would like.
Similarly, the City area has far more family centres than the rural areas.
So in terms of equality of access to service, just like I was talking about with elderly people, people with families don't have an equality of access and what we're trying to do is build up in those other areas those services.
A good example — National Children's Homes, a big national voluntary organisation, expert in family centres, opening a centre in Abingdon, bringing new money into the county, not just county money, in partnership with us.
Ditto the development in Didcot.
erm we're putting money into developing new centres in Witney, erm Bicester and Banbury.
So what we have , if I can paint it like this, is a development programme which doesn't just rely on Oxfordshire Social Services putting cash into it, because there are, if we manage this process properly, other people who we can encourage to bring money into Oxfordshire, but the key thing that'll only do it is if they're confident that they're dealing with a competent organization and somebody that they trust and they have some form of credibility.
And someone who won't overspend his budget.
I've never been known to overspend my budget, Bill .
We're joined on the line by Lou.
Good afternoon, Lou.
Good afternoon, Bill.
Calling from Kidlington.
That's right.
Yes, your views.
Bill, I have been receiving home help, for which I'm very grateful, a good service, but I paid four pound forty five a week for somebody to come in and just wash and dress my wife in the morning.
That  since January I now I have to put two stamps on a week, which makes it eight ninety a week, right?
Does  did I hear rightly that that's now going up to fifteen pound a week?
If I can answer that, Bill.
It rather depends on the gentleman's personal financial circumstances, and I wouldn't want to rehearse those on the air.
All right.
But if I can just reiterate the criteria.
If you're not on income support or housing benefit 
mhm 
but if you get attendance allowance 
Which I am.
then it goes up from eight ninety to fifteen pounds.
mhm
And I think that's probably what you were saying.
That's what I was saying  I didn't know whether I'd heard correctly you see.
All right.
Glad to help you out.
Thank you.
Certainly, Lou.
Bye.
Bye.
A caller phoned in to say that she couldn't get past her local doctor when she wanted a home help, and he said ‘Well you're coping well enough’.
So what could she have done to have got around him?
By ringing up your local Social Services Department office.
We have offices — they are in the phone books — scattered all over the county, local offices.
Each one of those has a Home Care organiser.
erm you can ring those, our Home Care organisers up, and they will advise you whether or not you are likely to get a Home Care and what other help might be available as well.
That's the way to do it.
All right.
I just want to give my view on the budget.
It seems like you got  there's a logic, there are arguments behind what you're doing, and you're equalising things certainly, but I suppose what comes to mind is this phrase to rob Peter to pay Paul, and it must be very difficult to explain to the people in the old folks home when it's being closed, I'm sorry, you're doing this so that somebody else in a different part of the country will have a better quality of life.
It's impossible to answer that questions, Bill, really.
Everybody knows — including I think members of the Council from all three political groups — everybody knows that we've got increasing numbers of elderly people, we've got increasing numbers of disabled and mentally ill people in the community, and if there is one service, and I know there are others, but if there is one service that needs constant new growth it's Social Services, and that's not me empire building or anything like that, that's me simply saying in straight managerial terms there are forces which require us to increase the Social Services budget.
If we can't, then we find ourselves in situations like we are now.
At least, the way I look at it trying to be ever the optimist, is that this is the least worst option.
We've balanced out.
You may say we've robbed Peter to pay Paul, and there's some truth in that, but we haven't at the end of the day gone further than that.
Remember the County Council has had to find ten million, and to a certain extent, therefore, Social Services has been protected by the County Council acknowledging what you've just said, the pressures on it and the importance of its services.
What's the morale like among your staff now?
I think there will be a huge sigh of relief that the axe that had hung over people's heads from December through 'til now has gone.
That's, I think, number one.
Secondly, I think they'll reflect in their own ways the sort of thing I've said.
If this year we have to stabilize in this way, do these things, then that's not a bad achievement  compared with what we set out with three months ago.
erm there are positives in this, as I've tried to stress today.
There's new developments going to come on stream this year.
They're good.
There are some controversial things, which we shall handle as sensitively as we can, monitor carefully, and we'll keep our fingers crossed that next year's financial settlement will allow us to go forward again.
How do you feel about managing the system here in Oxford.
It's got lots of problems and not enough money, and you probably have high hopes for what you wanted to do when you got here.
Do you look at all this as a pain, or a possibility erm?
I think Oxfordshire's a brilliant place, and I'm not just saying that because we're on the air.
We have, in the two years I've been here, we have got a depth of talent in our staff that's hard to believe.
They really are superb people.
They work far beyond their contracts, without any asking or saying.
The Council, I think, are backing Social Services.
They know what the problems are and they are prepared to take the controversial and difficult decisions.
I'd rather work in a place like that, where we can face problems and move them on and develop things carefully, than to work in some places in the country where things are so far off agenda, as it were, as to be impossible.
And I know colleague directors in the country who are green with envy at some of the things that we've been able to do even in these difficult times.
So you're optimistic?
I am.
I'm a basic optimist anyway.
I am optimistic now that we've got a stable base for the next year, and I'm always optimistic for the year after!
Ian White, Director of Social Services, thanks for joining us.
Goodbye.
Hello and welcome to the programme.
Today we'll be talking about the tale of a man who lives in a churchyard.
That's right, there's someone here in Oxford who now and then lives in the churchyard of Saints Mary and John Church in the Cowley Road.
Well what responsibility does the church have for down and outs and should the vicar try to get rid of this man in the churchyard, or should the vicar invite him into the vicarage.
Well my guest today will have views on those issues.
Reverend Martin Flatman is the vicar of Saints Mary and John Church in the Cowley Road.
Pauline Dungate has been working in the church for quite a few years, and she knows the man who lives in the cemetery from time to time.
And Reverend David Brian is the curate at Christ Church at Abingdon, but he used to work in Saints Mary and John Church area.
Sister Jenny runs The Porch, that's a drop in centre for the homeless in the Cowley Road area, and Lesley Dewhurst is from the Elmore Group — that's a group that helps ‘difficult to place people'.
Well more about that later, but first the tale of the man who lives in the cemetery.
Martin Flatman, welcome to the programme.
Ah, he doesn't live in the cemetery, he lives in the churchyard, doesn't he?
Yes, I know, well you know, you can't help it, your a bit foreign aren't you?
Yes.
That's the problem with you.
But he does, he lives in the churchyard, and he has done on and off, as you say, for a few years, and he's been a bit of a  most of the time he's perfectly all right because he keeps himself to himself.
He obviously doesn't like erm living anywhere else, and erm he's really very harmless, but the problem is that he erm frightens people erm simply by being there.
He's behind the bushes, or he sits in the church itself when it's cold, and I don't blame him because it's been pretty cold the last, you know, few weeks.
erm but erm it's terribly difficult to balance, you know, one's care for someone like that, and other people like that, with the needs of people who want to use the church to pray in and the churchyard to visit graves etc. etc.
Well people have rung into this programme saying that they've been put off visiting graves because this man is there.
Yes.
What do you say about that?
What I say about it is that if they are put off they should phone the police.
That's what I tell them to do, because there isn't much more I can do.
You can't actually order somebody out of a churchyard unless they are drinking.
That's illegal, but anything else erm it's very difficult to order them out, particularly if they defy you and say ‘No, I'm going to stay’.
You can tell them to go, but if they refuse to go there isn't much you can do.
They've got squatters rights.
Interesting one.
Well, you've recently put a phone in the church.
Why?
Well precisely for that reason, that not only this particular person, but lots of other people at times cause trouble, and I'm not always there erm and Pauline, who's next to me, who you'll probably talk to in a minute — she's over eighty, she'll kill me for telling you that  because she doesn't look it, she only looks about forty, but — erm she stuck in there and people are frightened and erm worried about her, and the fact is that erm there's no other way of calling the police than having a phone.
So now we've got a phone.
It was put in today, and hopefully, if we do have trouble, we can then contact the police much more quickly.
How long has this man been living in the churchyard?
Oh, four or five years.
Four or five years?
Yes, yes.
Is this 
I've been there four, and he was there a year before, so it's five years.
Five years.
There you are, you see.
Yes.
Is  does he live there off and on, or 
Most of the time he's there.
Well, Pauline, now how long have you been there?
I've been working in the sextry for four years and he's been there all that time.
erm at first he wasn't too bad, but he's just recently erm   he just resents everything that's said.
If you're nice to him — I won't use the language over the air (because you'd be shut down) that he uses to me — however nice you are to him it doesn't make a bit of difference.
He's aggressive.
He wouldn't touch anybody, I don't think, but his verbal abuse is out of this world, you know, whenever you  and the thing is that he will persist in sitting in the church smoking his head off.
Everybody that comes in — you can imagine the reaction — and you ask him not to do it and his language is appalling, and he goes on doing it.
People don't like coming into a cigarette-filled church.
They object to it.
And apart from that he looks  he hates people coming into church.
He glares and glares and them and there are two people 
Oh, he hates people coming into church?
Oh yes, because he thinks he's got perfect right to be there and nobody else.
And so he glares them when they come in?
Like, for instance, ‘What do you think you're doing’
Oh yes.
‘in my territory?’
Oh yes.
Oh.
The thing is that two people this morning came to do their grave.
One is a very gentle lady, much too timid really, but she said ‘Is he here?’, so I said ‘Not at the moment’.
‘Oh, I'm not coming in if he's there, because I'm really frightened.
That's why I bring my husband.’
So I said ‘Well, there's no need to be frightened of him, he wouldn't touch you’, but you see then somebody was talking to me on the phone last night and said the same thing ‘We don't come any more to say prayers as we go through the churchyard because we're frightened’.
This shouldn't be.
mhm You've got to know this man.
Oh, very well indeed.
I've had lots and lots of talks to him.
He doesn't talk to me much now because I'm afraid I've been the one who's been tipping him out of the church when he's smoking.
How do you tip him out when he's got a lot of ash on him?
Well I tell him he must go, and if he doesn't I just open the door wide to let the cigarette smell out and erm course then he  as I say, I can't tell you what he calls me, but erm 
But you do the trick and get him out?
Oh yes, oh yes.
Yes.
Not a shrinking violet at all!
Well, so what have you found out about this man.
I mean, what's he like?
Pardon.
What  what's he like?
I mean erm, do you know much about him?
Well, he's talked to me 
Why is he there, why does he want to be there?
He's talked to me from time to time.
When I first got to know him he was in a very bad state and he  he really was.
He was shivering.
He was cold and hungry and what have you.
He told me that he'd got a good home, or he'd had a good home, and he just  I said why don't you live there?
Because they won't have me any more.
Well he told me several other things, which perhaps I better not disclose 
Yes, quite.
Don't betray any  any secrets.
any secrets on the air.
He did tell me some other things about himself.
erm but he is  he's a loner.
He doesn't like people.
He doesn't like noise.
mhm
He even complains in the mornings in summer 
Of the church bells?
about the birds, you know, because they make too much noise.
The birds, yes, well.
Yes, but you see this is just to give you some idea of his mentality.
Yes.
But erm lately he has got a lot worse.
Yes.
Well if he were to have complained about the church bells he would have had my sympathy, but I  I think he's got my sympathy anyway.
Does he have your sympathy?
Reverend 
Yes, up to a point he has got our sympathy.
mhm Well, David Brian, now you're a doctor and a reverend and your the curate at Christ Church in Abingdon, but you spent some time over there in Saints Mary and John Church.
Isn't this an example of precisely the kind of person that Christ said ‘Go out, find, and help bring into your bed’?
I think that actually raises the question very well, actually, Bill.
I think that this particular man is erm something of a challenge to us.
It's a symbolic embarrassment to have man in a graveyard outside a church, not getting any sanctuary, especially when you consider not only that background you've mentioned, Jesus himself actually said that he had nowhere to lay his head.
So here we are, you know, our leader was someone who was homeless for times during his ministry and he belonged to a people who said their god was the father of the fatherless and the protector of widows, and god who gives the desolate a home to dwell in.
I'm quoting there from Psalm 68.
So I think we are here facing an acute symbolic questions erm but if somebody's choosing to want to live that kind of live it's a very difficult thing to deal with.
erm it's  it reminds me of the kind of embarrassments that we experience on a number of levels actually.
The church is trying to do something, but I think having people like this man in a graveyard raises the question of whether we're actually doing enough.
For example, I was very embarrassed a few years ago when all his hoo-ha came out about this erm bishop who was getting this marvellous mansion in the country, and I thought to myself I'm not totally sure whether this is right.
But that  that was a local 
Yes it was, and it was  and I don't want 
bishop and a local house.
Absolutely.
It was 
With a stable, if I recall.
You've got it.
And erm a swimming bath.
Absolutely.
And to be really frank, one has to say when those kind of things come out in the open one has to say has the church got its priorities right?
I can also think of another example of a house and erm I want to be careful here because my  they're friends, who are also very sensitive about this, but they've had their house refurbished in the middle of Oxford.
It's a vicar's house, and thousands and thousands of pounds were spent and one wonders, you know, really whether this was the right moment, you know, the piquant moment to be doing this when we have in our streets men and women who erm are in desperate need.
erm but on the other side, I do think I want to say this afternoon that erm the church is trying to do something.
The Gate House project's about to open up in the middle of town, which is a drop in centre, sponsored by city centre churches.
erm it's going to be in the Northgate Hall and erm members of the churches from the city centre are going to staff that between five and seven for those who've nowhere to stay between those hours.
There's also a diocesan council for the social work initiative taking place on the Cowley Road, a drop in centre for single mums, and it's hoped that's going to be extended to erm hostel arrangements.
So the things are happening, and you'll be talking in a moment to Jenny and the work she does at All Saints Convent.
They are individual initiatives, but I still feel inside myself, my conscience is saying we could do more.
We could do more, and this is a very symbolic challenge.
And it's particularly, I think, acute in the parish of Saint Mary's and Saint John's because the vicarage has been empty for two years and erm  they built a new house, it was more  it was cheaper to build a new house than to do the old one up, but there it's been sat, empty for two years, and erm they've been trying to find a buyer.
We need to find people to buy these places so that we can sort of balance the books, but one wonders, you know, couldn't something have been done with that empty building for two years while there are folk in the area with nowhere to live.
I really do wonder.
Anyway, back to you.
Well, no, not to me.
Let's go over the Sister Jenny.
Welcome to the programme.
Your involved with The Porch.
Now exactly what is The Porch, and where is it?
The Porch is a drop in centre for the homeless.
It's open every morning and every evening erm and we give hot drinks and sandwiches to anyone who comes.
And that's in Saint Mary's Road, isn't it?
Yes, it's in a building attached to the wall of the Convent, so that it's  people can walk in off the street directly into The Porch.
But it's a very small building.
We can only have sixteen people at any one time.
And do you allow people to sleep there all night?
No, it's simply a refreshment centre, twice a day, but we have no overnight accommodation.
About how many people use that centre?
About a hundred people a day.
One hundred people a day come there?
About that.
erm it's difficult to be sure.
Some people use it morning and evening.
Yes.
So we have about forty people in the morning and about sixty people in the evening.
erm do you know how many homeless people there are in Oxford?
I've heard a figure of about five hundred and I just wondered if that rings a bell as being reasonable with you?
I would have thought that it was at least five hundred, because there are so many hidden homeless who are sleeping on people's floors.
I think quite a lot of the students are sleeping on friend's floors and they're not ever counted amongst the statistics.
But nobody keeps statistics, so nobody really knows.
Yes.
I suppose we're talking about people who  people  other people  the people who are paying the Poll Tax just don't really care that much about.
Do you think that's an accurate description?
I think there's a lot of ignorance.
erm and I also think that a lot of people are struggling with their own lives and they haven't got time to worry about other people.
Once people are made aware of the problems, they usually help in some way.
You see I'm  I'm not at all convinced to that.
I think that's a charitable explanation, and I would like to feel that, but I'd  I think that there's enough information out there.
I think we don't have any more excuses to hide behind, like this man who is there in the churchyard.
I mean he's right there, and he's a challenge, but how are people responding to him.
I think by and large they're probably running away and don't want to have much to do with him and they don't like these people, probably, who use your drop in centre because they might smell a little bit and they might be down at heel and they're not really people who are going to contribute much to the lives of those other people who are trying to get on and make things better for themselves.
I think we're dealing here with people who are seen by the majority to be liabilities, and the majority don't want to touch and have anything to do  we're dealing with modern day lepers.
mhm Yes, I think that's very true.
erm it does take a lot of effort to move over to meeting them as individual people, and once you've understood that they are individual people and you get to know their interests and get to know your common humanity, then that's the point where you want to get on and do something more, but it's very difficult to recognise the common humanity, and a lot of 
Why is it  why is it difficult?
Because people are so angry, they're frustrated with the system and their anger gets in the way and it frightens people.
The majority of people who come in are angry because they can't get anywhere.
It doesn't matter how hard they try, the system knocks them down.
You know, they might just get up a little way and then some bureaucracy knocks them down again and they're back where they started.
Without betraying any secrets, or identifying any particular people, can you give us general cases that would illustrate this?
I mean what happens with some of those people when they try to get on their feet?
They are knocked down again?
Well, they can go for a job, for example, and because they have no address they can't get the job, because they are not reliable.
Even if they do get a job on a scheme, it's very, very difficult if you're sleeping in different places every night, or in a hostel, to get to the job on time.
You don't have anywhere to wash your clothes or even yourself sometimes, so you're dirty and your clothes are dirty and  you're not eating properly so you're more liable to illness and this sort of thing, so that you're not likely to keep a job even if you get it, and you can't get accommodation without a deposit, and so you need several hundred pounds in order to get accommodation.
Housing benefit is very, very difficult to get erm and again it's paid in arrears, and landlords won't wait for that, so you can't get accommodation erm and you just sort of go down and down with discouragement really.
And how do these people express their anger to you?
Verbally  usually .
Do they ever get violent?
Yes.
What happens then?
Well, they have a fight erm they very rarely attack us, but they very frequently fight amongst themselves, and it's usually over something that's happened previously, but a few stupid words can just spark something that could be ignored if everything else was all right, but it  an insult on top of hundreds of insults will just tip them over.
mhm Well, I'm also joined by Lesley Dewhurst.
Now, Lesley, you're from the Elmore Support Group.
I didn't even know that existed.
What is it?
What does it do?
We're an independent organization.
We've been around now for two and a half years erm we work as support workers, I suppose, like erm community workers or social workers in some contexts.
We work with people who have fallen through the existing nets of provision erm generally because their problems are so multiple that no particular one agency can deal with them.
For example, somebody might erm be homeless, but no hostel in town will take them on because perhaps they have a mental illness or a drug problem, or perhaps they are in trouble with the courts erm we can return to that hostel with the person saying ‘Don't worry about these other problems, just fill in the bits you can, the accommodation, and we'll sort out the other bits’.
Meanwhile, we'll be trotting them along to probation or a solicitor or whatever and getting that side of things dealt with, etc. etc., so we try to stitch together some sorts of packages for people who otherwise fall through.
So you're scraping the bottom of the barrel?
That's a  in some ways a very unkind way of putting it, but yes.
mhm And what sort of anger do you find from these people?
Immense.
The same sorts of things that Sister Jenny was talking about.
erm on  the problems of getting a job, for instance, erm in Oxford, because there is such an inequality between the erm rents that landlords will charge people on benefit and the rents which anybody on a low paid job could actually afford to pay.
It is impossible, in many ways, for somebody who is erm on benefit and living in independent accommodation with a private landlord  often it's impossible for them to get a job and then cover their rent, so they can't get a job.
It's as simple as that.
It seems like it's a pit that people slide into.
Are more people falling into that pit?
Is it enlarging?
erm yes, it is.
The erm help available is in many ways decreasing erm I'm afraid we have to drag politics into it sooner or later, but central government funding, or lack of it, erm to my mind lies at the bottom of many of these problems.
Like for instance.
Where do you think that more money needs to be spent? erm well, the government are in the process of launching a massive new initiative called Care in the Community erm I'm afraid a lot of people working in my neck of the woods find this rather  well not amusing, but erm  it's slightly hysterically amusing, because the amount of money that would be needed to fund the projects that are identified as being necessary is enormous, and the government is in no way going to be putting up that sort of funds erm so it comes down to money, and particularly in this community care area.
But I think if you had all the money that you needed there would still be a problem of the public's attitude.
Yes, towards — we're getting back towards our original man in the graveyard — yes, I mean I'd like to say that you're saying particularly to Reverend Flatman what should he or his parishioners be doing to help this man — it's not as easy as saying that somebody individually should be offering him a room in their house because his problems are far more manifold and deep seated than that.
Could I interrupt 
Yes, Martin Flatman.
Indeed, we have tried to offer him accommodation erm to help him, to offer him a deposit erm for a room.
We've tried all sorts of things erm and we've erm sort of erm included erm Lesley's Elmore Support Team has come and talked to him and tried to support him as well, so over the years we have done all sorts of things to try and support him, as I have to try and support all sorts of people.
I mean we support The Porch financially and with people going to work there precisely for the same reason.
And then of course I, like many vicars, have, you know, literally hundreds of people with different problems coming to the door.
I don't know how many of them are genuine, or how many of them are not genuine, and I have to deal with them over and over again.
I mean I had two yesterday erm and it goes on and on and on and erm I just feel that erm it's unfair of anybody to say that the church isn't doing anything.
I think I would go along with Lesley and say that there comes a point where erm government initiatives need to be taken.
We need to be dealing with the whole thing as a community, as a society.
But can I come back in there a bit.
I think it's 
Lesley Dewhurst.
it's a terrible mistake just to say that the government's fault and they should give us more money.
mhm
Of course, erm there's a lot more individual responsibility is needed than that, but it's too simplistic to say that  that erm  to smile upon these people who have problems would solve everything erm but erm to make it your own responsibility to  to find out more and to find out the ways in which you can help I think is very important and is everybody's responsibility.
Can I interrupt here?
Sure.
You talk about getting work  you talk about getting work and all that sort of thing erm we've offered John, at one point, that if he did a bit of clearing up in the churchyard erm that he would be given a small amount of money.
‘How much?’
I said ‘Well it won't be a lot.’
‘Well, I shall want five quid a day if I do it.’
I said ‘Well, I'm sorry, you won't get it, but wouldn't it be helpful if you did that’.
No, he will not.
He'll come from The Porch, he brings his paper bags, his cups that he has for his drinks, and he'll leave them there.
‘John, will you move them?’
‘Why should I?’
What 
I mean we've got, four, four, four cars in our house, the gran lives in the granny annexe inside, god knows how the fucking hell she got a  parking space, somehow she did, mum's got her's in there, my old mans parked his opposite, we've got a big double drive as well, my old man parks his on the right and I park mine on the fucking left, its like a parking lot out there in the mornings, and if when he says 
When, when your brother 
yeah, he 
he start driving 
hasn't started driving yet, but if for instance, erm, I've left my car out, just left it in, in the way, cos nobody  nobody said they were gonna go out and all of a sudden they wanna go out before I get up or something, fucking this cars reversing here, fucking everywhere, but that, and that 
still got a  outside me house
its as bad as our house , I say the secret in our house drove cars is three cars parked out the front,so you've got a bit of grass, three cars parked there, you're not allowed to park on the dri , drive,,sometimes  parking round the front, but 
The other thing is, I mean, whatever I get back  its gonna be a big part of my spending money, so if I don't stay 
see it in there?
in the paper today, it should be, so if I don't get any, put it this way if I don't sell it before Christmas 
Well you've still got that two grand of whatever
yeah, that's what I'll do, I'll just take some out of that and replace, but I, I've said, I, I'm never gonna touch that I'll be well unhappy if I do, cos I been in real dodgy situations with money and still resisted the temptation to take, touch that money.
Yes.
yeah, you know.
You're not sure we'd let you have any if we did 
yeah, what's  ain't it?
before it 
dipped it in the canal
yeah.
last time I went fishing, got 
Yeah we .
I heard about you and your old 
Mm,
just wait till we see him then.
Oh shit that might be, you mean recorded for posterity
Tape annoyance, can I sing a song?
Go on then.
Er, what song do you want?
Not really, we don't want any songs  
if you've haven't seen one then for fucks sake
do, er   don't know what to say, I've gone all shy
Its not like you
Ah?
its not like you
no, good job this is 
Manage to speak to me mum and dad,contact with 
Did you?
No, I'm going to go to 
I tell you what, I don't suppose you could persuade her 
to get me some contact
Yes I could
can't you get bi-focal contact lenses?
Yeah, yeah, I've know that, that's been on the market for about a year, year and a half now .
I've, I've never seen it , well I've, I've, I've only had contact, I've had these, this last set of contacts for about two years now, that's why I want to get some new ones and erm 
How much are they nowadays?
Tint, tinted ones , there's coloured ones, there's all sorts
You can get coloured can't you?,
I know they've been doing that for ages.
John if I, I, I never got  
that  and er she's got big red  different coloured lenses, she's got white outlines
Yeah
like old Crawley what's his face, the forge, where's he
oh yeah
Star Trek he's got a pair of them.
Can you see through them?
, yeah  no point if you can't
No  
well no, I just wondered, I mean  totally  in it?
Yeah, but they're not  are they?
Those, those ones are complete cover over, just got the 
No, this is one to re-cover over
Yeah I would of thought
yeah
you can only get re-cover overs
No, I went for contact lenses, he, he just said look, there are lots of ones on the, the market, but I suggest you have these, bloody shape of them,
Yeah you get, you get, blue ones which make your eyes bluer than 
You can get ones that implant sort of colours
Yeah
actually when I think  my eyes, my eyes go dark green, fucking  they're almost like translucent green  cos the  are all fucking 
walk into a shop and the girl, the girl goes oh you look tired, you think, yeah, yeah, you know, still fucking red you know, that's what I  
I don't get red , I've never have done  I, its only sort of over the past sort of half year, and I don't know why, they never started, started to go red 
Did they 
when they 
You're supposed to change you contacts at least once a year
Yeah
er, apparently after that you can start risking infection, and they get hard and everything, that's what I've noticed
My, My  
get mine in now 
my aunty gets, gets them back and she says they come back, she, she actually  them, and she, she cuts them into the, the shape, of the
Iris
yeah, and er, she gets them back and er they've got to go through about twenty different processes before they're allowed out the shop, or out the  storage, cos even then, when they're in store, they're, they're, some of them come back as  cracked, you get ones coming back from er customers sort of thing, been  and they come back and they've got pins in them, they've got bloody great er bits on the outside,of the outside .
I've got the like  I don't know what it is, they've got like the little triangular something on one of the things, its right on the edge of the  like a little white mark on it, that's 
I, I get it sometimes, I, I tell you what
I can't get it off, I've soaked it in , yeah 
if, if you go for a swim right, and you  with your contact lenses in, I always wear my goggles over the top, I mean obviously if you dive
yeah
and you open your eyes, you miss the, the contact  right, but always  and er, it  so you take them straight out, and you've got to clean them virtually straight 
Well I swim with mine in and I haven't noticed anything 
I don't know, maybe its just me 
Well you are a bit drunk  
if you happen to get anything in your eye, right  the, the thing I found was, if you just close your eye and then open it again, your contact lens would come up with your 
No, I've never had a problem like that 
Yeah
You see, I didn't realise I thought there was a soft or hard, but there's actually soft and then there's 
Yeah.
allow  and they reckon that soft ones are better suited too sports because, because of the great  action they're harder to, to knock out, whereas soft ones er, have better other qualities, I've got this little fucking book, book that I picked up in the Boots in Farnborough the other day  yes, its quite interesting.
Hard ones have better greater durability and that er vision  and that's it, all the others is, is fair 
I don't know, I say I found my ones brilliant  they are 
Yeah, but , but I'm just saying they reckon on this, its like, they had a little chart, its either fair, good or excellent and like all the others there was like vision and wear and stuff and the vision of  that erm, durability and vision capabilities were excellent on the, on the erm
Hard ones
hard ones, yes, and just good on the  and soft ones.
but if you think about it, there is the hard ones can have a lot better  can't they, I mean the only thing that'll actually harm them is that if you  get poked in the eye or something and it shatters the lens cos they are actually  
you can now get non shatter proof car lenses, shatter 
Shatter 
shatter proof car lenses
non shatter proof.
non shatter proof, whatever, non shatter I think they say 
What you want?
Got any tens?
No, I've got 
Why's everybody after tens?
Yeah, so I can get a kit kat
Kit kat 
Do you want tens 
I wonder now, I  
The ravenous four 
What did that  come out like?
I don't know 
and I thought my sister did.
Your sister did,
Do you actually do any fucking work?and especially that McEwan whoever he is
Ah?
especially that McEwan geezer, whoever he is
Yeah
I said oh steady on 
Yeah 
I know your sort Michael, you use them to use people, then you throw them away, so they don't matter
Must be doing a lot of 
I do.
Ah?
you take the high road and I'll take the long road and I'll be in Scotland   
Ah shit, erm Alex
Yeah
erm  re-spray this  and er 
Do you have any  round here?
No,
Yes.
What do you think I'm doing here?
Had them all set up at one stage.
Funny old day again.
Yeah, I wish you'd stop fucking saying that.
What are my 
You start fucking  I'm going home.
I've enough 
you get Dave like that  
Yeah exactly
We go 
Erm, two 
Surprised I could fucking walk this morning  Ah?
Did your friends 
the bonny, bonny  of the  
Yeah
Fucking,
Worse one I had was to go and get some elbow grease.
this guy Jim 
I nearly  like that  he was like a .
I did fucking, I did five years of normal paperwork and plus for the last three years I did double as well cos I got kicked out of french, so I was  in metal work like, four hours of metal work every week the last three  three years and, cos I was like nine times out of ten I was the only bloke there, the er, the er metal work teacher got on really well, he was  showing me all sorts of stuff and I never got to do the actual metal work lesson
well nine times out of ten yes, everybody else was in french lesson.
Oh.
yeah,
This is why I had the right attitude when I first got to British Aerospace,anybody any, any  anything anybody could tell me about how to fucking  like that
Yeah
cos I had a right old attitude, I mean, I mean, I know it sounds modest, but, I was doing it well, don't get me wrong, I was doing it, and I, but then it started getting a bit 
Sort of 
a bit too advanced , stuff that I never got and all of a sudden I was still saying I could do it and I couldn't any more so I, took me ages to get rid of that reputation cos why I know about  you see, I forgotten what  fucking hard too get rid of it
Yeah, even  get rid of it 
too bad 
With us,need, need a bit of a mouthy 
Yeah.
Dave
I wasn't saying oh I know it all, you can't tell me  how to  superior attitude
Yeah
fucking wasting my time  six months.
the bastards.
But the fact is I have done it all, up till about the first six months there and then I started getting  well, well out of my league, you start getting the machining and stuff like that, I haven't done much on them at all.
But I still, no I was still saying oh yeah I can do this, getting in a right old state  boys will be boys.
I wanted to be a machining  but I was .
That was probably  the most, the in , the most interesting form  friendship in there,its fucking good, I went for a job in there, but I couldn't I was an apprentice , as I say that, that's what got me going really was the fact that he had to go down and actually  do a design of the  and he had to work on the 
I think that's technically a, a draughtsman though is it, that's more like a  more what we call a design commission.
Something like that, yeah.
But everybody get it,
Yeah
every , but all, all the draughtsman unless they were just called 
We always used to play the  like you never see what is going on and never know the problems involved in being , that, that was what was good about the, the R A interview .
Yeah, but they're, they're much more keyed up  probably their design programme is probably much more advanced than most other places  
The whole idea originally is the R A was to get them  we can design as well 
Yeah
so I mean though, I suppose that they probably had erm things they 
The, the most efficient wing in the world is seven hundred mile an hour, it, it was a flying pig at, at seven hundred and thirty.
Ah, ah, sorry?
Yeah 
Yeah, like I said what's, what's the people's most efficient wing in the world, seven hundred mile that could be a flying pig, but why all of a sudden technology started  in.
See I don't really know much about planes to be honest with you.
There, there is planes, but there is no want  the, the world's most efficient because like I said that the efficiency changes at different, different level 
Yeah 
speeds, altitudes, stuff like that.
See some  different characteristics and a supersonic  and so that then, so the elevator and control services because at supersonic speeds, if you moved at the same distance, at  six hundred mile an hour the elevator went like that, so that sort of 
you're not fucking throwing the plane out of control or the elevator would rip off or something, I mean if you get the same sort of thing probably would only have to do that, break the surface a little bit.
The, we 
Think how much like 
we did two years theory as well, no three years theory  
There's a, there's a lot of dead people not dead cos their dead because they've died of old age, dead because they were trying to find out how things work.
Yeah
We  flying a glider or throw themselves of the bridge, if it doesn't work they die, somebody learns from that, you know, I know it, it really was a fucking 
this, this has been the most extreme  of trial and error ever
Let's face it a war is the, the biggest single event that can increase technology  in the electronics and radars  two men on a fucking single budget, two men on something like a three hundred pound a year budget or something silly.
Like behind us, up behind where I live at Sandhurst  thirty years now.
The prin I mean the principal of radar that's fucking  fascinating, the did a programme on it,
That's, that's where they go on 
and the first sort of thing they ever had was just like a little screen it just went blip and that's it, all they could tell you was there was something in their vicinity, it couldn't tell you what direction it was or what height or anything.
That was developed up at  
Yeah , and then from that they've now got these fucking things that show the direction, the sign, the speed and oh  its incredible   sonar's been going longer than radar, but only just  we were the world leader's now, I mean we  cos we, cos we preserve fuel, we knew exactly, they left it for the last minute to get up there and intercept them.
That's right all of a sudden they're 
They reckon Germany done about ten, fifteen minutes combat time over the, over the 
only once who had any staying power with a high 
But then again they were no match to .
I mean we, we say the .
In nineteen thirty there was something like  there was only about er ninety, hundred spitfires in the Battle of Britain all the rest were fucking Hurricane's and stuff 
Do they still do that?
No, that's been cut out, same as the blue ribbon  crossing the Atlantic  blue ribbon event.
Even though, even though er thingy  trying to do ain't they?
The last, the last, the last liner oh yeah, the last liner to actually do it is erm the Queen Mary's
say the Queen Mary 
I mean the Queen Elizabeth, Q E two never even went into that   like an average steamer, thirty five knots or something
Yeah
that's fucking going some for a ship that size  I would love to have be able to fly with the  or something
yeah
cos that really was flying you know, that was, no, it was none of this fucking press a button and let the, just a computer do it, you're a computer technician, you're a pilot now, but this fucking Eddy, Eddy the , yeah real, there's, there's quite a few reputable
Oh yeah
but there's only one real 
Oh yes the shame like that  
as well 
there's only one Lancaster still flying, and there's no Wellington and
Well there are, if you go
there's no Wellington's
if you go to Hamdon
there aren't any original Wellington's flying because this is why they got 
Oh no, not flying ,
no, oh yeah 
cos they  
its like lots of  as well but  this is why 
Its only 
this is why they were so excited about this one they found in the Lock, in the, in er Loch Ness, because it was in such superb condition and they actually reckon they can get it flying again.
its only one short  as well Look at all the, look at all the Brian .
called defiance, ever heard of that then?
There's only three, yeah three they reckon left in the world and they found one with a Japanese 
are still  quite, quite around a lot, there's not many of them, there are about fifteen, twenty, there's not that many P fifty one Mustang's either  crying shame in it?
twenty-five  bombers.
There's quite a few of them, cos they were 
Yeah 
they the by erm old air America in the early indo China wars.
They're quite, they're quite common actually, I mean there was a couple up at Black Wood
Yeah,
the only ones left in this country
they've erm,erm fifty-eight's up at Black Bridge, they used to be three of them there and, one of them was used in the
plane
one of them was used in the er  film, no er, what's the Richard Burton er Clint Eastwood film?
Where Eagles Dare
Where Eagles Dare, erm their flying the 
See I, I didn't eith I didn't either realise, right 
That was just, that was Blackbush 
that helicopter's were fucking around during the second World War but they, they were 
I think the first, the first helicopter flight was thirty seven weren't they?
No, the first V T O 
Flying  
yeah, the first V T O L, no thirty-five
thirty-five, I think its sort of thirty-six  
that was  V T O L 
What's that?
If you think about it, the whole fucking  been going since the early six , mid sixties
Yeah, and they haven't changed at all.
That's a fucking  there is still no other bird that can take off  
one but its actually the same 
I was gonna say which is, is as good , ah, no its not virtually the same, it looks the same but they've got three engines in it.
Have they?,
What's that?
Its something like the erm, the legions 
The Russians or something like that.
the legions, something or other will do it, the Russian versions a harrier, its got three engines in it.
Certain  
Its got, its got er one the downward thrust, one for an angled thrust and one for level thrust, and its got a, they reckon its got about a twenty minute range if it takes off vertically
Are you
yeah but they've got fucking, just fuck off with the dust 
Didn't go in your coffee, sorry
Yeah, but its all around in it?
I don't need any more with fucking stupid  come along with everywhere .
Yeah, the, its like the old 
Yeah
that, that's not supersonic
ah?
that's not supersonic 
trouble is that, that, that's got  and then they've got the, they've got, its about two or three, they got, they, they never had money to 
trouble is, is 
We can't, we can't afford to build any more Concorde's,it costs too much 
They're only about twenty years old, ain't they, they  sixties
Concorde ain't they?
Sixty nine  
I mean if Britain will, will be 
Did you see that helicopter flying backwards?
Yeah
Supposed to be, supposed to be the only one that does that.
No, all helicopters fly backwards
Oh you mean loop the loop
yeah, they also fly backwards there
oh they 
there are two or three that can do it, not many though, that's what I said two or three
yeah that's right
technically, if they get 
Yeah that, that 
Oh yeah, that's the, the  erm
the only one of its kind 
got a little jet outside,
jets at the back 
What about .
no, one I've seen
can do it.
the one I've seen is the one without the tail ropers, its just got a little jet out 
yeah 
stop the centre  stop the erm  lever 
This one had er a have a little can't remember what it was.
Bells was the maker of it, did a project on it 
Gets you, the reason why helicopters haven't been able to do loop the loop unless they've got a lot of height, is because, obviously it pulls you up
yeah
so if you doing that,doing that keep you up in the air, right, keep doing that you'll go that way, when the helicopter's  you want to do that way, so obviously 
like that 
when its like that it tries and pulls you down, and this is why there was an accident with a Wessex or something or a Sea King a while ago, where three or four people died, cos it just didn't get enough height and as, as it got to the top it just pulled it straight down to the ground, it couldn't, it didn't have enough height to clear the circle
Was that a, a Sea King or something, about ten, ten years ago or something, try to do a, a loop a loop  air show and crashed 
I wouldn't 
it was one of these big things, a Sea King or Wessex or something like that  I remember, I remember 
didn't really they should of 
that's what I said it pulls them down, erm the Apache can do it now at any height apparently  erm and the , there are, there are two or three particular copter's now 
They've got no 
pulls you up  do that goes that way, does that goes that way so you're upside down you see, you've not only got weight and gravity pulling you down you've also got the thrust of the engine pulling you down as well, and the only way the helicopters going to be able to do it is by getting enough height so they can sort of drop like that and they start dropping and they can just pull it back
I remember it as, I think, I think  I think  I remember there was like three or four people inside it or something, certainly wasn't a 
still hold the erm air speed  one of them new 
yeah the 
engines
wings are down, yeah
sixteen engines
four  four, four wing mile  on each 
worlds biggest air .
The old galaxy department er, galaxy class as a enterprise erm, the old er galaxy air lift plane with the  as well 
The Russian's build this things but they haven't got the money to finance them
yeah
they haven't got the money to keep them running
commercially
they had the money to commercially run them,
they built, they built a well beaten aircraft and they haven't got half the technical advantages that the West has and their computers has still, practically just got out of the  stage.
A mate of mine he says he won't tell you  for about three or four years.
Eight twenty-seven, eight twenty-nine
Eight twenty-seven, twenty-eight, twenty-nine
A well beaten aircraft  
I mean I, I heard a stupid story, that instead of like, the, the  twenty-seventh, twenty-eight and ninth come over here, but the  was still, was still using a radio and stuff  taken out the  pre war stuff, that's how far their radio technology and communications  come on.
Yeah 
With the old F sixteen its like a couch, you sit like that, its just the joy stick in your right hand and you've got all your buttons there, whereas the old Russian one's just a p , a normal sit up and  on a joy of a  column, its amazing how they fly,make those flew once they do
ah?
Yeah, but 
A mate of mine actually worked in
a mate of mine actually worked out in Russia and he said you know,piece of discussions about when, where the Russian's sort of appear first and this sort of he said  he said erm, this, he said that, that kids running around on the streets of Moscow is actually given a working permit and so he could actual work there and  sort of like er
one of the top  in the, the company  and er he said that there are kids
Mm, I mean you've told me this before Mark, well I, I said to you
kids are fucking running around with just nothing on their feet
right, that's it, you've, you've told me this three times and I've told you several times as well, the, the Russians put everything they've got into military technology, just because, just because their kids are still running around 
They don't  they've still got , they've still got no military technology
they've got one of the biggest armies in the wor , they have 
so 
got the biggest army in the world
so, its all on script 
and they and th , what I am saying is they produce, they produce stuff like the  twenty-eighth and twenty-ninth, don't be fooled because their kids haven't got enough to eat and stuff 
they haven't,
that's, that's the time to worry
they, they still haven't got any, as you say they haven't got anything to eat, I mean what's the point of you putting 
Yeah, but their military has 
everything into military, no they haven't even now 
the military get the best of everything 
that was, that was it , that was it, even now, the economy is ruined, there's nothing there 
but I would still bet you that, I'm not gonna say that, that their eating well, but they'll, they'll be eating, they'll be eating twice the amount of as a civilian
that's what I'm saying Mark, what, no matter what the state of the economy, the Russian military will be at the best it can be which will be 
yeah, but  
three or four times better than the civilian's 
some of the guys out there, you know, the Russian people don't want to start anything you know, but also they, they feel they haven't got the technology we have 
no, I mean its obvious that 
for , for a start their tanks are still man powered, their still  tanks 
no 
you know, he, he said, he said  he said there's still some of the tanks are still 
still some of them
but he said, he said.
but every front line regiment in the Germ , in Germany had, they were the first tank regiment to get completed with er, er, computer optic sights and stuff
Are you sure?
I should know, I was, I mean ask Mark, you know, how many people are the  are, its very naive to think that, that their civilians are in a, in a poor way but their military is as well.
It maybe in a poor way compared to what the West get 
that's what changed 
but they've got so much  there's eight tanks or something to every fucking one of ours
yeah, so what
seven combat planes
you've got to you, you none, none 
fucking fifty men
none of their tanks have been tested really 
Afghanistan 
look what the Afghanistan did too them.
look what the fucking Vietnamese did too the Americans and the Americans went in their heavier numbers and more concentration 
yeah, ok 
the  than they went into Afghanistan
you, you are trying to determine gorilla war, right, but it doesn't how much technology you've got, because Afghanistan and the Vietnam proved that, but   tried, tested and proved
yeah, the cheaper  being phased out
yeah obviously they're being phased out
challenge for us, the  right
yeah
but on the other hand you've got the T eighty eight the T seventy two which is, that's only like the Correan one but its still got one of the, the erm, the longest range, and the most accurate canons on any tank still, I said the, the Russian military's got some of the best  in the world  and that's giving the fact that they haven't  yeah the, the state of their population
yeah exactly
and I think where they 
cos they 
population starts getting that desperate that's the time when we've got to worry
no
the Russians are just, just mad enough to fucking go for it
no because they'll do what they, they've always done there send their military in  and they'll  they'll say you aren't having this, you aren't doing that, I mean obviously Gorbachev's   I mean  this stage, he'd just send the tanks in by now, he plagued Yugoslavia crushed  
so what happened to all this Yeltsin thing right, has  has it been so much build up, speculation of the West, you say thirty years of build up on our part is being wasted, we've really got nothing to fear of the Russians?
No I don't think we have, but I think they'll probably be a Civil War first
well yeah now, but you, you were saying this, we, we had this conversation when I'd first got here, before any of this started to happen 
I, I, I don't think that you
Here you are 
we don't really have anything to
obviously we got to have fears, because there's something to be , they're the largest nation in fucking Europe so everybody's got to fear them, because they co-hearse all the other  into being part of their group   and that sort of stuff gotta be 
lets face it, if, if Russia had wanted to declare war, to, declared war on us, sort of right  ten years after the second World War had finished, and that would of been it, Europe would of been out
we always did  
because they were scared
just because
they were just as scared of us as we are of them 
nuclear weapons
yeah, exactly, but other  its not just that
if we, if there was no nuclear weapons I reckon we would of, probably would of been at war with Russia now
yeah, that's, that is it, that's what I've said er, got  there's one reason, one reason why 
but all these talks, all these talks 
I would never of er voted Labour
yeah, cos its not a union that  
it isn't the biggest deterrent in the world backed by .
But like I said Mark, er  the mil , NATO never used to think that they can hold the Russian's for very long  in, in conventional warfare's
You're telling me that we've got nothing to fear from them?
ah?, see, this, this is one of 
why has there been such a  Star Wars plan?
Why has there been such a, a, thing in the fifties and sixties for buying  and that sort of stuff?
you, you, keep  can't actually tell until it does happen  until something does happen and then you know how well that each side is prepared.
All I know is that there are better people in, that, are more intelligent people that are better informed about  than me or you and they deemed it that we've got something to fear against  and I'm willing to take that.
Fear against?
Fear against them , I still wouldn't put it past them, I'm not saying they will, I'd be very surprised if they did try to get  cos they're cos they're on the sort of er the brink of being excepted by the rest of the world again, you know, but up until a couple of years ago, this thing happened, you know  conventional warfare were  and they only way we can stop them is by nuclear warfare's
and you think part of the fear is er Russian causing  the fear that communism is now spread three fold around the world.
Yeah you're going on as if , you started off on the fact that you don't think we've got any fear of them cos their kids are running round on the street and now all of sudden you say we have because they've got nuclear weapons you say.
No, I, I just said do you think after 
Oh yeah, yeah
by the  which was
because, one  of state
yeah I'm saying it does, yeah 
one minute shall forcibly put upon the world
well yeah
by force
that's why the, the McCarthy witch hunt and stuff, the hippies   
that there is that fear, that is because that is  the second World War  this is why  the erm  the er  late thirties, early forties was never gonna succeed, because they had two completely different archaeologist, plus  now in their purest form their not that  but in the  they were, they were never going to work, I mean that is the fact that their communists, the sole reason they've been against each other for a hundred and fifty years  there is no other reason 
if they were capital capitalist you wouldn't have a problem.
that's why, that's ever since bolshevism first started in nineteen, seventeen 
yeah exactly , but I think er
but then again since, up, up until the mid forties we had nothing to fear from the because they, they didn't have much of an army themselves, they had millions and millions of men but no resources or facilities to build it
The Germans feared them
yeah because they had, that, that's why 
shear weight of numbers 
that's why, that's why during the first World War, Germany made a categor categoric statement that Russia should start disarming, she was mobilising 
yeah but shear weight of numbers like I mean America, America and Britain 
Red army 
American and Britain are partly responsible for the way the Russians are now cos we finance most of their industry in the second World War
yeah that's right  but I mean what can you do I mean she was an  Russian was a 
, she wants the bear necessity .
All the reason that we have been against each other is because of economism and we, we 
but 
did, did have   and I'll still say the only reason we haven't been at war with them is because of the  army, arm 
oh yeah 
neutral wise, yeah
I was thinking venturialise as well, I mean we can't, we can't 
we  hoped to we couldn't never hoped to match them 
during the second World War, one German found three hundred, four hundred Russians took them prisoner 
second World War 
yeah, took them prisoner second single handed, I mean  
After the second World War they didn't have a economy in the second World War, now they have
the Russian have fucking one of the most powerful forces, I mean up until the Stalingrad in Moscow, the, the battle of Stalingrad they didn't know if they  at all.
They were wearing cardboard boots that froze in the winter 
yeah exactly 
Yeah 
but I mean up until Stalingrad that was it, the, the Russian army was nothing, right, but as soon as Stalingrad came in every  day 
I can't see what the point is that was more than forty-five years ago
yeah, what I'm trying to say is that, that the Germans,on one German captured about four hundred blokes
what's that got to do with modern day warfare and stuff?
well, I don't know
its got nothing to do with it
I know but what all going on is the history, that fact is since the mid-fifties we, we have had dealings cos they've been one of the stronger  of the world 
yeah, no, no nobody knows how, how they, how they do things, they've never opened up their army to us  but
I, I don't know how they get there  but they know how our army works, we know how their army works, we cannot hide manoeuvre's and every army in the world knows the manoeuvre's I've been on one big NATO manoeuvre out in Germany right, and you're saying to me they don't know how I, how each army works
no I'm saying that 
why why do military  on our side say that we'll gonna get fucked in conventional war?, we would hold them, we would hold them 
shear weight of numbers 
for a year or two years
shear weight of numbers
yeah
that's all, nothing else
yeah, matter why we've got anything to do 
if it was one on one, we wouldn't have anything to do, but it is the fact that they have got good technology, good materials and they are that much more than us, their troops aren't as well trained as ours
yes, yes that's, that's one of the class of  
their, their supply routes aren't as well defined as ours, but they've got shear weight of numbers, see, I'm af , I'm afraid, I could be a fucking karate black belt or something right, so one on one against you I wouldn't have a problem, but if you went and got fucking thirty of your mates I would have a problem, I maybe able to hold you off for a fucking few minutes or something or if you could either contact, maybe a few months or years or something, but they will win
yeah
and this is why military strategies have always said we were gonna get  we could hold them for a year, two years maybe three, but in the preventional warfare we would start loosing and military strategy have always said along that it would probably be somebody like France or us that would first use the nuclear weapon 
Me you fat fart, well he's a fat fucker 
Fuck off 
This is really 
What'd you mean?
You ain't still recording it are you?
No, its .
Th the doctors over there need a lot to be desired, I mean that  what's, what's his name the eldest son of er Jim and, Jim's next door neighbours, what's their, their names?
Who?
The one who cut his hand
Cody's brother
Adam
yeah, I mean he's supposed to be a surgeon or a doctor ain't he?
No trainee ain't he?
No trainee ain't he?
Cor fucking hell.
specialise yet has he?
Woe betide anybody who becomes ill in Australia that's all I can say  I mean the thing is why is Neighbours put on twice a day cos I don't believe in   
Wasn't Bobby Davro good last night on the Wogan show, that's, that's why they put Neighbours on twice a day because they can't believe 
think so.
Twenty million viewers can't be wrong
twenty million  as well 
I never forget Benny Hill once  
got talking about Sun readers, there was this girl and she, she was stood on this podium and she, she's talking to The Express and The Guardian and going like that and their taking photographs of her and then you sort of pan round, the camera pans round and you've got The Star and the Sun   going like that  fucking  its really funny,The Sun and The Star in it  
Bit down for somebody's mate who was four hundred and nine, was it four hundred and twenty seven million out the pension or something,
What's that?
the Maxwell group , Maxwell group 
What the old Maxwell group, yeah its good ain't it ah?
what they reckon ah, is it
five hundred million 
five hundred million or something, four hundred and thirty of that or something was out of his pension or weren't it?
Yeah
that's a lot of 
yeah reckon all his  shortly before his death.
Might as well carry on recording,
Ah?
just stop it Paul
what?
How's it go again?
.
But there again its the same as Murdoch in it?
That's what I'm saying how did he knew that  
He's got too many fingers in too many pies  ok one groups making, one groups making a million pound a day, where another groups loosing a million pound a day or loosing two million pound a day, if you've got too many fingers in too many pies
soon adds up
yeah
if you think about it, he was, he was the only rival to, to sort of Rupert Murdoch  I mean they've got a
yeah that's it,your talking what, six million pound for a player or  player now, its a , yeah  its like some of the, the teams   what's it, where's  video?,
Oxford
Derby, Watford 
and he was after 
Something very dodgy going on at Maxwell group  
They say it takes  
football league 
Yeah,
to, to run a football club say
I wouldn't mind
say about a hundred million pound a year  would you say that?
Ah?
to run a football club about a hundred million a year?
about fifty million a year  its a hell of a lot.
Yes especially the mega bucks they pay these footballers, four or five  
Who's the most expensive player?
John Barnes  
probably Real Madrid or Juventus or something 
Sampdoria
Sampdoria   , why'd you think the  ain't doing so well?
.
Its like me old man was saying well  old fucking Jim Davidson came in and said er  er Bernard Manning is by far the best stand up comedian in this country
Who 
and he always will be, Jim Davidson said, said about Bernard Manning, he painfully said er, er Bernard Manning is, is, the best stand up comic in this country and probably always will be and he turned to Jim Davidson, big headed bastard, and he goes no
cheeky 
yeah he goes I know I am
Jokingly or
no serious, he goes none of you bastards can touch me,fucking hell 
this was with a pair of glasses he took off, he didn't do a very good Michael Caine, he did er Jimmy Greaves and er Dennis Nordon, Gazza really fucking well you know,he did a brilliant Robin Williams 
So how comes Mr Caine 
yeah
Is it?
its number one 
I wanna see that
yeah so do I
Jeff Bridges  
I might just go and see that on Saturday 
I  
Ah?
Robin Williams
He's one of a small 
Ah?
I said he's one of a small  
Yeah I  
I think he is fucking brilliant
who ?
Yeah, yeah it all comes down to personal taste
yeah  who do you like then?
Steve Martin, er 
yeah
John 
Don't like 
No.
No
What time we knocking off?
What time is it please?
Janet  is my favourite, Jasper Carrot 
along-side Chubby Checker
She does
bollocks
as far as I'm concerned yeah 
Who?
Jasper Carrot
I quite like him.
yeah I like him as well, but he's not exactly a  or Dan Ackroyd  
Just cos he's not a, he's not a big star in the States 
a bit fussy  and Ben Elton 
not  not any, not any good anywhere else
No I just said I like him as well but 
I know, but he's not
he's not a fucking big, he's only big in this country 
No he's big in Australia, New Zealand
what he's got  big any, any of those I was just saying
I bet you 
, but I was saying any way I like  
er, I can't do it any more
he got out this little diary he's got and he was going
he's got another one who does  they hear his screams sort of thing put its in
yeah
puts the letter to his sock, fucking whirls it round and stuff
fucking hilarious
yeah
they way, way he  I mean he's  took a bite out of it or something
he had this tea in his hot water bottle and he 
that's it 
like that
oh that's right 
he's taken a bite and he's fucking spurting water all over the 
that's 
him with his million and fucking 
I, I, the only ones I've seen is why 
yeah, that, that bloke his got his fucking, there's this bloke he's got his sun glasses on and he thinks his er sun bathing, so he got this fucking what's it, his trousers on still and he's trying to get his trunks on and his trousers on still cos this blokes there, he's fucking going from all this and that 
yeah, right 
he manages to get them on and he takes off his trousers, and fucking blind folded him, he gets up and 
trunks through his trousers and that's why I 
Its the  attitude cracks me up, oh, every thing he's ever done makes me laugh 
yeah 
the only one I don't like is that bloody oh erm, what's the other one, deep sea water, something lately for kids, his got his own kiddies programme, Maid Marian, take the piss out of 
Oh that is Tony Robinson
are you sure?
Black the Forgery.
I, know he was in Black Adder
Yeah its Bawdry, its not Rowan Atkinson 
He's done lots of kiddies things, he's had an  and all sorts in there , but I mean  are fucking funny,
I don't think , I don't think Griff Rhys Jones and Mel Smith are that funny
No, Hale & Pace are  
Oh I do , I like Hale & Pace
Hale & Pace are   sometimes they make me piss myself and sometimes I think that was , sometimes they're  
nine times out of ten I fucking love a  I like erm they're better than the other  fucking superb, I think some of 
Its alright for some but
I think yeah I was gonna say its a bit, if your a real Steve Martin fan and he's done, everybody's  but if your not much of a Steve Martin's fan then 
Yeah
but him and Robin Williams 
The Jerk is probably his best, his best film ever,
I thought that 
What?
The Jerk 
and Roxanne 
yeah, yeah and Roxanne
I didn't think The Jerk was deliberately funny but it was, it was 
I thought it was fucking hilarious 
a superb film
just the, just the whole idea, the whole concept of it, I'm just  
but it cracked, cracked me up is these fucking songs that make you take  and he keeps hiding behind the oil can
yeah
he thinks his shooting the oil can, and he keeps diving behind these oil cans and takes cover and that, he said oh no not an oil can and  fucking little bullets, bullet
I was born a poor black boy down in Mississippi, out in Alabama and he's like a  jet white ain't he? and he says I always felt different cos all the other kids they just sit there and they'd be tapping their feet  and then you go onto the oh  and they're getting the old rhythm going, like they do and he'd be going  like I all so different I couldn't quite do this and he used to get in look, and er
and he goes er, he goes 
ma ma 
and he goes off  the big city ma ma, like this and he's got a fucking flying helmet and a flying bucket 
yeah 
and he's sitting outside and he goes, he's mum goes well he's been out there two weeks and he's still stood there in the same spot and he's going like that
yeah and he said oh and well I sure was lucky cos here comes a lift and he gets in, he goes right, he's taken his prize  jogs about fifteen yards and says bye thanks for the lift and he stood about fifteen yards further on from the street, there's bits in it that is fucking funny, he's  made it rich and all this and he's happy bloke, he get's his girl friend 
oh  
in the shit, his fucking gone clang, this blokes got his fucking nuts and the next thing he sees is a big fucking plaster  balls alone  and he's, he's got up his wife, he's having a right old night with here and he's leaving, and he says I don't need you, I didn't need
Way of the World.
its T V remote control though
he said I don't need you, I just need this fucking remote control this desk lamp  he's got his trousers round his ankles you know, he just cracks me up,
black parents.
yeah he goes, I'm gonna offer to him his gonna
find him more work 
get me , find me more work he goes cos next week he's gonna give me a blow job if I'm lucky 
and none , none of the others, they've had this one sort of older black guy and his fucking pissing themselves and all the others going why that sure is nice of that little girlie,
cos she's a real fucking  ain't she
she ended up
she goes to him can you do this like, this
and he goes
well he goes
well I don't know I think she 
well good of her 
good enough 
he ends up as a tramp and he gets to  ah son get in and  you know he  fucking hanging out the back of the window  we had, we had enough money to move to a bigger house right, and they got this little  
ah fucking hell 
yeah that's
I, I said  all they've done is literally scaled it up to like instead of a door being that size its now like that right and the front porch instead of being that low now that high  up double it, its a bigger home
its hilarious
we've moved to a bigger home, fucking scaled it up 
and he, did he fight, does he fight, I mean he here's some
he here's a Pat Boone record or something and all of a sudden he  started dancing to all this and the old black bloke comes in and says oh my life,he couldn't get any of the old blokes .
it is a funny film, you seen Roxanne where he plays a  fucking funny, he has to think of twenty  pornographic, the only women who can satisfy two  by two women at once its got here, nature loving, too much, really love little bee, give a mat to sit on and stuff like that, your gonna fucking break that in a minute, time have you Mark?
Twenty past
Think 
Yeah, yeah, have you seen Filofax?
No
New one out, that's really funny
woman in it 
the woman in these is by the farer one of the horniest bitches for me anyway
that I've, I mean she may not be everybody's cup of tea, she's well slim ain't she
yeah
but the, seen her in Real Men Face Me?
yeah, John Ritter 
What's it called?
Real Men with John Ritter its, its really wacky, like he's this fucking secret agent stuff, I never smoke unless its after six  and he just, he's this John Ritter and his got this really mild  of character but he's been mistaken for an, an agent and he's, he's, he's going  
he's over there so do something so he's, he's going fucking he's gone, why have you got a gun, he said we'll think of something so he's gone  over his hand
all these fucking people have diving they can see he has a real gun  
and as he's done that the mates behind him have shot him with a real gun, his gone, his gone 
and he fucking thinks he's  so he's going around   
and this other mates got it as well and these two mates have shot, he's gone 
Wow,
and all of a sudden he keeps going I'll cover you 
God  eh it really is funny
the best was on that fucking baseball and that 
yeah, yeah its  you'll have to, you'll have to see it, Real Men, James  and John Ritter, its good.
I just sat through the whole  and pissed myself, I like the clown squad
yeah 
oh no its the dreaded clown squad, what C I A agent's dressed up as clowns they're deadly and all you see is this fucking 
he, he, he, he said  hard, right, so he can fucking, he said I'll, I'll take these and the first man that comes up fucking bashes it and then James er John James  gets them all and when he wakes up, just as he's about to wake up John James thinks right and he fucking lays down on the ground and he wakes up and sees all these clowns all over the place
he thinks he's done it 
right, and he, he fucking he gets, he saying to his  what, what happened, you've got all these clown squads?
Well, yeah I guess I did, you got all of them?
Even Bimbo?
Well yeah I guess I did  he gets confidence and he walks up with this  he's getting cockier by the minute and he's well proud and he's got he sees this, his in this bar trying to chat up this woman, he says I need a, I need a  didn't he say I need a smoke or something, so he looks for a woman 
something like that, oh its fucking  
and he sees this really pretty woman, but, like he's got glasses on and he's got big  I don't really know 
all sweet and innocent like 
you know, oh come on we'll have fun, a bit of a I don't really know, like this and he fucking, he gets let in this house and er
fucking 
he says just wait a minute I'll just get everything ready so just come in when your ready so they walks in
Have you got 
yeah
no
he walks in and there's this fucking big like contraption thing there like, you know, and she's standing there
get us a thingy
stiletto heels, fucking whips and stuff, she says right get in, what,and he's fucking on this thing and he's going round and round and round he says I think I maybe in love , you know, he fucking come out and he's looking really awful and meanwhile this James Ritter character he was suppose to, he's stopped the robbery and sent the police and their all going wow what a guy, fucking great stuff, that is a funny film and er
The Real Man
Real Man
who was that Mr Death is alright, its not brilliant  
but its alright film as well 
Spread Heap
Spread Heap, yeah unfortunately yeah,
where he drops that fucking cup of coffee 
I love  I think
Wow look at that 
Let's get this straight, the woman's mine ok
Turner and Hooch was funny
Oh the ending was funny  
that's probably the best  film that's ever been, there's been shit
Oh I don't know I really like 
Mr Big er  sorry 
Jumping on that big piano on the floor
I thought that was quite funny actually
I thought that was hilarious.
It took me a long while though to realise that was Meg Ryan at the beginning.
Yes, right 
The thing is I knew there was Meg Ryan in the film and I thought I've seen that actor cos I'm, I'm always on about knowing faces and names and stuff
Maybe I should 
but she's, she's going er 
Really dowdy, quite pretty but really dowdy and at the next one you see she's erm this real baddie got  bite my boots and  real trendy sort of bimbo type character ain't she?
Yeah
long, long straight er,
and I thought well now she looks familiar as well, I still haven't twigged that its the same Meg Ryan riding her bike and then Meg Ryan comes up 
and its really funny.
Beg forgiveness and say please get off my  
like that  don't you normally go in the garage and do it
yeah,
why can't you change it in the garage?
Some garages say, say no.
Well then I can't believe that any garage would, would refuse to give you a ten piece for their own machine .
I'll ask for, I'll ask for ten pence 
Fucking go somewhere else then  now you know where not to go don't you?
Nobody has  
Eh?
Saying, quite easy to go into a garage then 
So what's fucking new?
Ah?
You heard
no I didn't, can you repeat that?
so what's fucking new?
cheek 
.
Rocking and rolling 
Fucking 
No, just said , well I don't know she might be, she might turn up and then say  
half past seven
the time  got up 
half past seven   pardon me.
Did you see anything about, did you see that bloody 
No 
What's that about?
about the events up too and leading after the events of Bloody Sunday, nineteen seventy-two 
No, sorry   never had anything to do with  he was trying to er  
He got, got question and that in that events
like so they did in 
said they just fired rubber bullets high into the ground  fucking rules, live ammunition
they were rubber bullets being fired as well but all the ones that died were
no it wasn't rubber bullets, was it, it was that, that 
real live ammunition live ammunition
yeah, they didn't have rubber bullets then did they, they had the old 
Yeah  basically
between the fucking  suppose to be  aren't they?
basically that, the erm the trains that were  right, erm
I thought they'd taken it 
yeah but they take it, they, they got documentary  haven't be able to get anybody died  being shot they got people being brought back wounded and stuff, but erm, basically the  there were I R A gunmen there erm  at least three was spotted, say in a crowd that size how many more went unspotted
yeah
right, its almost definite British  come under fire  but it does seem that the para's did kill erm out of, out of the thirteen, only one had any I R A links, he was a member of the, the I R A  erm, and out of the remaining twelve only three of them might of fired a gun, you know, they  leg  or the hands, by the side, by the gun
yeah
and er, but apparently they did a, they did a test and that was also a package where the  stuff like that, transfer  although those three may of been carrying weapons, they split open the policeman, but this does seem to  basically at , well not no, not indiscriminately they didn't say that but they shot innocent people, I mean like I said well the  I mean that's got to kill  in those streets and stuff the ricochet's can go quite easily go through somebody  but there, there was, there's always been claims er, there's no I R A gunmen there
yeah
apart from one Reverend the most Reverend  Doyle or something  and he saw one gunmen and he saw him fire a couple of shots and they told him to piss off out of sort of thing
yeah
so I mean if, if they caught one, they actually took a photo, managed to take a photo out of all those hundreds of people, look how many more were, were there, and it just seems like basically their not sure who fired first, obviously the Irish say it was the British them and the British say they were fired upon first and erm, on, on the strength of it, who, who would you rather believe I mean, somebody that's been living in Ireland for twenty odd yea twenty years now with all that happening around him being able to be got at by the I R A or a British body who may, may be up on a murder trial, you know, the, at the end of the day its six of one and half a dozen of the other, they've both got stuffed  by a bleeding troop
yeah
so it really does think that all I
murder trial
No they were, that's what they were  weren't it when it all happened, the old Revered somebody or other, they  wilful murder  but erm  yeah basically it doesn't seem like, there was no real evidence as to who erm fired first and there was no conclusion that the  about that, but they were certainly I R A gunmen, para's, its like without a doubt if you know some people, but  like with those high powered weapons they may, alright its unfortunately that somebody may have got shot, but it may not of been the main shot, that may, may of been a ricochet or, or anything like that, both their  they've got a killing range of up to three mile  so  one mate come round, he says he's gonna come round again tomorrow and have a look at it  
well if they ring up tomorrow, erm one bloke says he might ring up tomorrow, one said she'll, she'll come round at the weekend and another bloke said  
said it's a Dolomite 
Dolomite, its in the paper, its in the paper for five-fifty, but I told that lady last night is it, what, what is, what's, what's your minimum offer, I said well I want four hundred for it I'm not going to take any less  so I was, I was sort of and
but erm, I think I  down by his legs,all this and erm, you know, its bang, bang its just like, its over in a split second, you don't have time to be  this, I was there and there  nobody really new what was going on and all this sort of stuff, he was probably one of most honest about , well, one of the most honest little bloke more willing to speak about it,and he had this other one it was right you know like, er, well I'm already taking further than I'm willing to go on this course, what you need is, well look, you know, all I know is that we was  first,saying no more than that,not willing to go.
The only thing, the only thing that all of us said categorically is they were fired upon first, but the trouble is they've had fucking twenty years to, to think up their side and so there's that so 
haven't they?
so have the Irish.
How many  they reckon fucking
How many  reckon shot them?
Yeah.
I don't know, well, because I mean that any one of them could of said oh well we were being fired upon first and then they could of er, their colleagues fucking  going on 
Yeah, but the other thing was, it wasn't that, towards the end of the programme, they weren't so much  who fired first, its, erm, there is, there is no evidence either way to support either story, the Irish say there was no Government, there was nobody running for Government  you know, said that they had three 
If you can manage to get one photo of a gunmen in all that crowd, how many more were there they didn't get a photo of you know, erm, so that's bull shit for a start  the  said that they only fired upon identified targets, going on motorbikes, and erm, I mean the thing is, the para's are a highly disciplined, highly trained  apparently at a  you weren't even allowed to go out there without at least five years experience  yeah, they were  soldiers, they need  and I can't believe that they negligibly  you know, cos there was women and children there, and nearly all of them had wives and kids, you know, and there was reports from like the Irish saying oh yeah, they were mixing body er, care and body  people and fucking laughing and joking over dead bodies and my old man said yeah if you just, if you just seen something drop most people will  laugh and joke about it, you know I don't know if you've ever meet this sort of,old man, but the service  sort of a, a unique sense of  they can laugh at anything, you know they can see somebody with its guts put out in front of them and they'll fucking crack out about it, its the only way they can stop themselves cracking up, or fucking crying sort of thing.
And there was this, there was this no conclusive evidence, the only, the only thing that  was that, that these  and make the  said there was only one man definite I R A 
and the other  may or may not of been  like I said just the fact I'm shaking your hand,weapon  he goes and does a frenzy test  but the evidence on those three were, wasn't very, wasn't very conclusive and it 
So it doesn't , still doesn't rule them out 
still doesn't fit and that's the thing  yeah I mean all this morning was saying  you haven't seen  under fire, they don't stop and look around if they get down into cover he said how they suppose to know who's firing or not?, you know.
And he, he said but we only 
You don't fucking  
we had a couple of men fire over the 
one of them said, you know, he said how, how the hell  how the hell can they say which directions the fire's coming from?but they, I mean some of them were saying like this mate he run out, he was going across this patch of open space and the soldier obviously saw a soldier and as he did that apparently he got shot through there and out the other side of him.
So the thing is, if he,inconsistent in that story, if he's doing that, that direction how did he get shot from that way, where he's own  telling stories apparently coming from?
Yeah
You know that's all right he may, might, alright there may of been a soldier there, but they've just come from that direction
yeah
and then he's, he's going out and they're coming like that direction and he's looked round and he's seen the soldier,doing it, he's gone and this is how I did it and then he put his, like this and he stuck his  hands up and as his done that he's got shot through the body from the side, what's  
he still alive?
no, he blew his chest out.
You don't get  and fucking live, not many do any way.
How did he know it was an S L R?
Ah?
How did he know it was an S L R?
Well that's it, if, if it was a British soldier it was a S L R
Yeah, yeah, that's what I mean, I mean he could of been fucking I R A
Exactly, the things they could of,stop inside people unless its,so you can never tell.
Any one got any  Harry
But yeah, I mean, there was so  so many inconsistencies on, on the Irish witness  side, you know, like what, what matey said I was, I was running out and all of a sudden I felt a pain from here  on those  fuck it, he's up there, got big forearms, and big sort of muscle that size, that's really wasted this side even after twenty years, it must of about  and apparently one matey got shot in the back running away, oh no five out of the thirteen got shot in the back, which again doesn't fucking mean any thing, you know that's , but I said if there's I R A supporters there and that, you telling me you seen where your comrades have fucking get shot, you're not, you're not gonna try and pick up his weapon and stuff  I mean like, it was just a perfect opportunity to, to get one over on the British Forces and I, I said I don't think yet the para's were entirely blameless, but then again I don't think they ever have been  in any of their fucking  
No
they're not angels, they're a hard regiment, but they're also highly disciplined and highly trained, I've got, I, I, the other thing I couldn't see what good, I mean is it, is it the, I mean its not, its not the anniversaries or any thing so I don't know why they brought the  out, cos I can't see what interviewing people twenty years after the thing happen can do.
Not, probably not.
Well, well interesting programme, I'll give them that though.
Not a 
Yeah, but my old man he's a, he's driving he was driving the  one of the  that's, that erm, Lieutenant Colonel  was in  at the time of the, and he, he was in there  and he said my old man knows for certain that at that time they were under fire, cos they drove in and picked up two bodies and put them in the back of the jeep all under fire
Yeah 
they know for a fact that there were gunmen there, as to who shoot, shot first that's held in tribunal, he, could, he, he'd never know
Who's that, your old man?
yeah  nearly ever soldier that was there got  Lord Rigdely or somebody, you know
yeah and er, the, the programme condemned him a bit, basically he  he didn't, there was, there was, he didn't seemed to take in a lo , a whole lot evidence from either side, you know, he did, he did, he didn't seemed to handle the case very well, it was sort of more like it just get it over with quickly and forget it sort of thing.
Sounds like 
I don't know though I mean he, he's, he's allowed that, he allowed that the fact that they could of been unarmed men and all that but he also condemned three of them on the evidence of this lead which he really shouldn't of done, he should of left an open verdict on those few cos lead could be transferred to .
I mean lead can be picked up at  what put your hand on the exhaust .
Oh well lead so er, apparently if, if you could get in fine detail enough we'd have lead on ourselves, this is why the, this carbon dioxide stuff from the erm 
Fucking have that on the inside of the 
They have this, they have this MP there from the S D L P from nineteen sixty-nine to seventy-two and he's a, a pacifist, he went to the, apparently he went to and spoke to the leader of the provisional I R A
no
I don't know who it
I don't know who it  and apparently he asked him that, are, are any of your men gonna be there and if there are he said, I'm, I'm gonna pull out and use all my influence to stop the march and the I R A police said no there would not be any gunmen there  so I thought yeah, fucking right, oh yeah that's easy to say, and then if like the reporter said and, and you believe him and you have the feeble excuse towards a small community he said, you know what's going on 
fuck off
exactly, I mean this, this is, this is the I R A, they're not part of any fucking small community they are the fucking community unto themselves and that's is that, that was he's answ erm, that was he's answer to the question of do, do you believe him or something, you know, well all in all it was quite interesting 
Oh it might 
How're you getting home?
Naked  you?
Up at half past seven, fucking   
Set the alarm for half past six, gets another half hour in bed and he's moaning about it.
An hour in bed,
, so 
Fuck off
Did you see that, that  last night?
Erm  its not the sort of thing I like to watch.
I, I wasn't watching while  at the time, but erm  basically it seemed like it was six of one and half a dozen of the other.
Don't no nothing about it.
Thirteen, thirteen supposedly are innocent Irish  got killed by para's by militaries included in the crowd, and all the other's, the Irish say that basically there were no I R A gunmen there which is according to there's proof that they have, they were, erm and like that, the para .
It's all a load of bull shit basically, it seems, it seems that the para's were certainly under fire, with  nobody knows and erm, it does, the only thing that is blatantly clear, all these lying  transferred by the para's and they were like dragging them away and stuff and the only, there's only one member that's had any thing to do with the I R A that they can find out about, that's one  so at least nine weren't firing definitely, erm, three may of done or may not of done  so it looks like the only thing that basic the same is looks like at least nine were innocent, you know its all right for
No smoke without fire thought
yeah, makes you  I can't see what's good its doing twenty years afterwards, the people had time to think about it and use their memories for twenty years, nineteen seventy-two it happened and they've just sort of done it .
Yeah but
tell you the truth will never come out about that though.
No, but the, the only good,heard of it is erm  he said and basically any of the para's aren't 
Might know.
They know who they all are.
Yeah they reckon they've got files on it, sort of eighty, ninety per cent of who the provisional I R A and  I R A are.
Yeah.
One of these will do?
Yes please, yes please, soon as, soon as 
Fucking  
they think they're all in the beds,.
Stu done half fucking rabbit on don't he?
On and on and on and
Oh have I upset Phil in some way?
Why?
dunno, seems to have got the hump
Phil?
Yeah, said good morning Phil, totally fucking ignored me.
Are you still sort of staying at the same  or 
Dunno, that wife of  fucking me up.
Ah?
That wife of  me up  I had a  my girl yesterday
Oh.
Oh shit.
What?
Knocked something behind by the looks of it
Ah?
Knocked something behind his bench by the looks of it, dropped fucking  go and wash it  go
But its got    
Fell out the bag  yeah boring night down at the 
Ah?
Boring evening in 
Oh yeah.
probably end up watching video's and  this evening.
Oh, this evening coming 
must be eaten anything dinner time, I've got to go to the bank   
Here Stu
drink
How is he?
Was he really scared?
I hate it when that happens
Eh?
hate it when that happens,did your  buy  or what?
Its three a week, sometimes I don't, depends what date he goes, its up on 
Cos I see him know with this big pallets of that stuff all over the place and 
I must admit I was  fascinated when I was standing  when they
Yeah
looking at other people's  who was that box for?
There's only two
trolley load on
Well mum's shopping bill don't come to .
Oh, that's a nice plant, is it a coniferous Colin?
Is it a coniferous one Colin?
Yeah its a little conifer we found in er 
Did you get a good fair offer or what?
Its alright,
Do you want some imported stuff, its  .
I have that  what do they usually look like, they got little, like leaves, tiny leaves under the  a bit like a pine  I suppose, you know, larger  but they're they're sort of like a lit , small little leaf along the outside 
easy come, easy go  
Your mum and dad know your smoking?
Haven't they said anything?, obviously not.
At first they
Eh?
At first 
What'd they say?
no
What a surprise 
You did what?
What a surprise .
Have you got those photo's back off her?
Ah?
Have you got those photo's back off her?
No, get them developed, later I suppose.
Fucking 
Why don't you get hold of that one?
Fucking get hold of it
I don't know where it is 
out of her.
I, I respect her privacy 
You lying toad .
I do 
You respect her privacy only when she's in front of you, when she's out the room its a quick glide full through all the drawers 
I once nearly read her diary and I thought no I'd better not 
Actually I would, cos if you end up murdering her 
Yeah
she might have some nasty things to say about it.
Na, course she hasn't
she loves me  Its one of these quite big ones with a little catch on the outside you know, a little,
And you couldn't, you couldn't pry it open, could you?
and it was er open on her bed, she popped out for, for about, I dunno forty odd minutes to get her hair done or something  I was well tempted to have a look, but I thought no if I get a diary and somebody looked, looked through mine I wouldn't be happy about it, so I didn't  its quite a hard temptation but
It is
quite hard not doing it.
I bet she asked when he got back
No
when she got back  you have a look in my diary she said  you go bright red and say no 
What diary?
Yeah
Well I keep a diary now
I didn't know you kept counting 
And I  years  its quite lovely looking back   
Its about all  in it 
What?
have a kip at lunch time, did some work, came home and got smashed  Went down about all  
See you later Mark 
oh see you later mate
see you later, yeah, good luck to you
where, where you off to?
ta la mate
where you off to?
Gonna  
Yeah
yeah
Oh, just in time for nineteen ninety-two
Oh yeah
, yeah good luck, good luck, see you later 
see you later Mark, alright 
Be fucked out by the time I 
Get in there 
Be a funny old day won't it?
See you later Mark, good luck.
See you 
Reckon that's three out of fifteen.
What you  
quite happy as well ain't he?
Is he, where's, where's he going to?
Hamburg.
Hamburg.
Yeah  yeah I mean 
Did he say where?
Does he, does he know which firm he's going to,
Airbus
Where?
Airbus  about nine quid an hour
sorry?
Airbus
Airbus, oh  done well Mark
Nine quid an hour.
I've got his telephone number at home, I might phone him up
Yeah, I might
the trouble is if their looking for people to start Sunday, I can't start Sunday.
I know, I can't start Sunday.
Got to give them a week's notice 
Its not worth it for you is it, you might have to hang on till after Christmas and try and 
I might phone them up and just, ask them if there's any jobs going after Christmas sort of thing 
Can use the good  the things, I mean, for a, for us who haven't got permanent jobs yet 
not working.
That's right, its a job   Has he got the flight out there and everything, they pay for it?
They do, yeah.
Is he going on Sunday?
Yeah 
I'd love that, I'd love to pick up 
Well yeah,
I don't know.
I think.
I should think its quite hard to get into it 
Yeah I never thought of that, yeah I suppose its colder  you don't have to take that many clothes out there do you, cos  get out there 
Its a funny old day  
I think if I was going to go Sunday I think I'd buy myself a few  cos that  
How 
I've got two  boxes at home, but I  I mean  its not brilliant, but they do the job for me   could be worth  cos he  driving out there as well, wouldn't mind  start get the old ferry ticket's tomorrow and piss off over there , straight through France,
Erm
out to Holland  
they offered me two  for a boat, right and they offered me one while I was there, then I got home and they offered me one that late that evening,job, erm  working like that was a Thursday and they wanted me to start on the week Monday, I couldn't do it  as it happens I had to give my weeks notice here  get out there that quick, so I fucking said, I said to myself well they've  first day, they're gonna offer me a few more, so yeah they offered me a couple more but way from  so, a bit unlucky I, I wished I'd fucking taken it 
Well you could of done really, I mean you could of fucking rang in, rang in here on a Friday and 
that's what I, that's what I thought like cos I thought
you know, if they want  the first day, then there gonna have to do another lot so what's the point of sort of yourself out with fucking , I wasn't really sure at the time that I wanted to go to  so, you know, I, I said no I needed this job, but probably a bad   I've been offered a couple of month one's as well, one month and two month's, but I mean the trouble is 
The trouble is there  are they?
I was gonna say if you ain't permanently in employment, you're a bit silly to take that  especially if the er, present climber  and there's one there they offered me said it could be two weeks or it could be two years I don't know, so I  gambler or not, I mean it depends how well you're  you are as well.
Well most of them they saying are six contracts, now they say, say, six month contract or eight month contract or a three month contract, but I just had a couple that were like oh they could be a 
Goal 
couple of months he said he, it could be a couple of years, it depends on how quick it get, work gets done and how long they think they need you.
What time is it?
forty-eight.
Forty-eight 
Does they put   
Well maybe thirteenth 
What time is it now?
Quarter too.
What you got to go into town for?
Fucking  alright, I haven't been up to the  today, I've spent most of it sat fucking here.
Fucking I don't know.
Stuart
What?
Barney says he don't like extra strong mints so could you get murray mints next time please  I'll take them home.
Yeah  this is taken this piss isn't it?
you've got to ain't you?
this morning.
I'll tell you what I'll bring you back a crate of fucking French extra strong mints 
yeah we've heard you don't give it to Karen in the French style.
What is the French style?
No fucking idea.
The French what?
Mucking about 
the place, sex 
I know you, you, you're not allowed to bath three days before so you can get that fucking French aroma going.
That could be it 
Probably right.
They reckon the average French woman don't change their knickers, they only change it every two days or something   and all sorts  they don't shave.
Yeah I know that.
Get right fucking  any way
Yeah
No I mean  like that
And their 
That, that, that little French, that little French girl I fucking, I told you I met
over in Spain, she fucking had  she had her  right the way round there, sniffing out the fucking size of it ,felt like saying do you want a quick short back and sides girl .
No 
She, she does  she once, she never let me in the pass, she never let me for my birthday.
Eh?
She never let me for my birthday.
What's that, shave her 
shave her 
I'd wanna shave her.
For Christmas she said can I shave you?
Fucking hell, a bit weird man, what's 
All I want for Christmas is a smooth fanny 
No  shave and then you shag a girl
Yeah but they reckon the stubble afterwards plays havoc.
Ah, getting that  yeah
Fucking 
yeah but I ain't gonna have to worry about it I'm not gonna be back for a month am I?
Should of 
For Christmas Eve I'm gonna get the old fucking  out 
run riot , don't try any,fucking run mate.
She'd be up with it as well, cos if I sleep I ain't never going to get it ..
Well think of that, if you cut her, whoops.
tissue all over it 
I wouldn't mind another 
Yeah 
Stick the tissue on it 
Would you like to do  you interested?
Definitely different.
Mm.
That's what I want to do the shaving as well 
Yeah, see where its going wouldn't you?
What they don't need, they don't  the old lathery legs 
I ain't got to, I've just realised it was  
The old lather in there, work it about a bit.
Does it, is it, is it the 
The cut throat
A bit of hot water down there fucking 
well you've got to snip it first, haven't you , you've got to fucking snip it with the long hairs first, the old cut throat.
Oh he's, I swear he's done it before
He has done it before.
No I haven't
I bet he has
With a bloke
Oh,
.
Its  its just me putting after shave on argh.
Well funny you should say that
but we have shaved the bollocks of a bloke in T A, he was a right  like Tintin, so we, we pinned him and shaved his bollocks  and then put after shave over it.
Oh no.
Oh god I bet he passed out 
didn't he?
The thing is we did it right, we did it in the nappy, then we fucking put him spread-eagled on a  bench and me mate ran off to get the shaving kit stuff  and this fucking this people who's erm, looking wom , girls in there and everything, real fucking pissed up
to him, didn't take very long.
What that small bollocks.
But we shaved it from around there,people  we were gonna go on to shave his legs and stuff as well but we got caught.
.
We were gonna wax his fucking legs  argh, he didn't ar , he did, he wasn't screaming cos the thing we said like if you move this, your, your  will be slit sort of that'll keep him dead still right
alright, but then  more ways than one .
Yeah
He had a shaving kit like that, and he had his old, the old after shave lotion and that, and he will, well, picked us, we just fucking said I, I know what will do the trick a bit of fucking  gone
top of the after shave, used about half a bottle of after shave, and he's just gone  started  around, I thought he was throwing a  I thought that must of well stung.
I mean it, you know when you do it, when you put it on after shaving you think ooh you know
Yeah 
half a bottle all over his  I mean that  with a any way, but all over his fucking private parts shave them
Ooh.
I don't think he ever forgave any of us.
Who told you to get him?
The thing is a couple of weeks later
I don't blame him really.
no a couple of weeks later, erm, we, we went on a big route marching stuff and he was in agony the old stubble
Yeah
he, he, he had the old fucking vaseline down there and so , all that all the 
Don't join the T A 
no I fucking ain't, but its  you say that, there's this geezer 
Would you go around with your  
Thank fucking your heads not shaved not you're bleeding 
cos er, there's  there everyone get's something done to them, but nothing, nothing like erm,
Oh, Roger's got bald balls 
they say that some guys  got skin heads,
Arseholes, I wouldn't, I wouldn't do anything like that, I wouldn't do anything that might hurt
There's some, there's some guy .
What's that?
Shaved this Lieutenant Sergeant Major eyebrow off when he was sleeping one night, and he was in front of the, the Colonel Chief and Regional   so what he did, he, cos it, it took, taken ages, took about three months to grow back, so what he did was he shaved the other one off as well 
yeah
and like, just blended it in with like one of these pencil stuff, so funny
apparently he went, he went round telling everybody erm he was doing a live exercise and he got singed or something   but this, this erm, its Browndown on the South Coast and it was, it was a Christ it was a Christmas piss up, regiment Christmas piss up and anything goes, as long as you don't physically hurt somebody, although that has been known to happen and its not criminal anything goes right, but honestly the worse you do to  somebody the worse they do back to you, and people are getting tied bollock naked up the flag poles, dumped in bins, erm, tied in their beds, put out in the middle of the parade ground, fucking all sorts of things you know, like what we can do, the most common thing is nicking, you know the old walking pay slips they've got
yeah
nicking them and capture there pay slips and you get it, you get a little brass plaque on it saying captured by so and so and  the date, cos obviously they get fined for loosing it and all that sort of stuff
do they?
oh yeah its army property, must cost about, they cost about eighty quid or something
What?
the pay slips they use in the  can actually marked up and its got the exact 
You mean you haven't seen them doing it 
oh yeah the people, matey's walking along and he's going like this and he's pulling it as he's doing it, he says  and he's doing it in proper time  like that, but with one arm going he's twiddling it, he's doing it, he says no my feet are exactly  like that, very effective but you can actually get fined for loosing them, you have to pay for them and its like a real, shooting sticks as well,you don't tend to carry erm, these pay sticks you carry them like the old shooting sticks, the old  you know?
Yeah
we captured them,great laugh about that, really is, its just a, its just a weekend of piss up basically.
Every night in the  fucking raunchiest games, it doesn't matter if your a girl, if your girl and don't want to play fine, if your girl and you wanna play well, quite like the bloke sort of thing you know, there was no, nothing er, no  given, the fact that your a female, and they used to go in as hardly anybody half the time, erm, indoor rugby and shit like that
yeah
with a  cushion.
You know, nine times out of ten you don't even get round to take the tables and the chairs out the way, just fucking fall over them
erm  fucking indoor murder ball, the seat, cushion and stuff like that, its fucking well out of order piss up games  oh that's right I think we played in, I think we played, you know that British bull dog thing?, we managed to clear all the fucking the nappy chair this and the chairs out the way, we were playing this British bull dog sort of thing and the only thing, the only, the only difference was when you got caught, got, everybody was fucking giving you a few thumps in the arm, for good measure like, and we played about four of this and every time this cocky little son of a bitch didn't get caught, he was always the last person, so we fucking said, we said, me and this other guy's that are in our troop and that er, we said right we'll get him, so when, when everybody sort of go for it right just after the one person in the middle, said fucking just get this guy and fucking pin him down and do something to him right, we didn't, I think we said we'd just get him, yeah that's a good idea, so he's gone right go and his mate he's fucking took off two steps and there's eight of us fucking dived on top of him, what the fucking, he's struggling, get off you cunt so we pinned him down and at first we was just going to de-bag him in front of the women, we've taken his boots off and his trousers and that and  shave his bollocks, yeah the whole fucking  yeah, it was like an audience, all that they sort of gathered up the chairs and the tables  fuck have his bollocks shaved.
Well out of order, the thing is if that'd been, if that'd been another troop trying to do it to him, there would of been, there would of been shit 
Hell to pay 
but because he knew it was our troop, you know  but erm, that's the thing when you, nine times, about eight times out of ten you did it to another troop, but then again they did it back to you, but this time he was a right cocky son of a bitch, I mean we all liked him, but he was right cocky bastard, so he 
So he 
thought he was it so we decided to bring him down three pegs or two 
So when did the hair grow back on your bollocks then Stu?
Yeah, its thicker now Mark, but they shaved me round here, you know  er, we had , Kevin, Kevin 
yeah he was the fucking B U L G A R, he was a right good laugh actually  he's still there, he's a Lance Corporal now   
Got 
I, I, I was lucky in the three ground  I went too the worst that ever happened to me was I was put head first into a dustbin, but luckily it had been emptied it was still well mucky, but I just fucking went and had a shower, and I come out of the shower and I'd got pounced upon again and I was there, it must of been a funny site, there's me right in just a pair of fucking deck chairs that we used to wear for the, the shower block right, fucking shaving, er like the wash kit bag in my right hand and I was holding me fucking towel round, round me waist with me left, I was streaking across the play ground, going as fast as I could
and about fifteen of the erm eight, eight, five troop  chasing after me, it was like our sister troop  yeah, we were, there was three troops in our squadron, eight, eight, five, eight, eight, six and eighty, eighty, seven and then there was three squadrons and a regiments, there was nine troops there, so like, if it, basically it was your troop and nobody else, but then it was your squadron and, and anybody else and then the few times that I, on  regiment  it was your regiment and nobody else, like, we could touch you cos your our regiment but if you try and touch us,you can get fucking hell , but it nearly always come down to the troops, and the thing is eight, eight, six, only had, the first year that I was there we'd only had about thirty people, fourth year there had I opposed like fifty, sixty and seventy, second year we were there we had about forty- five opposed to like sixty, seventy, eighty, and the third year there we had about fifty opposed like fucking seventy, eighty and ninety in a, in a troop, so we were always well out numbered and we were by far the most outrageous
well, huh, one of our fucking sergeant's right, we were taken erm some of the recruits from another, another troop I mean, er nine, nine, one or something it was one of the other squadron's and er, and he's got them inside where's he's like fucking the old erm 
What time is it?
eleven forty six, he's got them inside, I think I told you about this didn't I?, and I was inside helping them out like, he was outside, he didn't have his gas mask, we were doing the  things, like M B C stuff, and I'm inside and he said right  you will each go to a post, where inside this tent, each to go to er, erm, cos there was six people inside and like there was six posts, he said you each got to a post inside the tent and on the  you will pick up the tent, and I new what was coming, done it before sort of thing  and erm, were all in M B C stuff cos there's still lots of  gas, but there wasn't for very long, and he said right on the  you will, er he just said, we picked it up right, were all fucking  all fucking  I said go on then,
Yeah
and then he's, he's fucking started marching us around the parade square and  and we can't see a fucking thing inside there, and he said er  come out a minute, so I've blinking gone out and I've noticed were about fifty yards from the beach
so I've got out, I, I said to him you thinking what I'm thinking, he said yeah shall we do it, most out of order it is a bit cold,middle of, middle of December like
twentieth of December or something like that,he's, he's fucking gone yeah, right troop right turn 
so the whole fucking tent shuffle's round, he said, you remember you are part of the British army, if you disobey orders you will be brought up on charges, by the left quick march, and he's fucking walking them to the sea
tent an all
go on 
and like the thing is obviously like the first  realise there on a  and they try to stop it, why are you stopping for, remember you are in the British army, if you disobey orders you'll get a court marshall  really started laying onto them, and like they've started again and like the first bloke obviously got to the fucking water, cos he's stopped again, one man one sides shouting out and  round the other side shouting out and they have they've all gone in, they must of thought fuck it and they've all just fucking marched into the sea, and we marched them in,tent was only about that much above water, and we've  lasted thought, this is the thing that got me, he, he shouted at him, cos we, we, we managed to get them  and that, he said right,right, go in, go in and tell them to come out, what, I said what, can you just pop in and tell them to come out, I said  over here sarge, he said you disobey an order 
I said oh you cunt, said I'm your troop you can't me go in there, he says try me, I said bastard so I fucking  right  sea, fucking over the  right you can come out now, marched back out again gave them a right old  on the way back again,get changed again, alright, I thought you cunt
and er, this is what I, this is what I wanted, to tie  to the flagpole and left him there for about an hour    he had his pasting  as well.
I, I, I remember you telling er 
He was our, he was our squadron but not our troop you see, see if I'd a been his troop he probably wouldn't of made me go into the sea, but it was fucking cold, I mean, I mean full M B C kit right
yeah, trousers, boots
trousers, boots, fucking the leggings, the gloves, the mask anything, he made me fucking walk into the sea.
quite like, yeah , I'll never forgive him for that, he's now our troop's sergeant, he's got a transfer to the other squadron  one of these  troops, to er, to a troop.
I went down there about a month ago  say hello to them all.
Yeah.
, we er, we, we did some, I mean that was  a proper weekend set aside for  but I mean they really  about practical jokes being played and stuff.
Er well the worse thing we ever done in cadets  was erm,the er  the handcuffs right, trouble was .
I used to like, I used to like the P C
Yeah 
yeah, I did like the  used to make  but I used to like the 
But the thing is once you'd fit you could stay there.
You used to work fucking hard though most weekends.
Like a lot of weekends  you'd leave, you'd leave the T A centre about eight and then from eight o'clock Friday night too about, well you'd be working until about three o'clock Sunday afternoon, and you are lucky if you'd got three or four hours sleep  working you don't notice, you get tired but you don't feel that bad and it was only like I used to come home on a Sunday crash out about  sleep about .
My old man said he's erm, he used to go down to er, every, every sort of six months or so, cos they were in  he was in charge of fucking then, he'd used to have to go on manoeuvre's about sort of six monthly or something like that
Yeah
just for re-training sort of thing.
The first time he went down there he set, set a  had to take the waters out, you know,said you've done it before ain't you  said yeah I did it in  in para's and the bloke said yeah, right he said erm well there's not a lot I can teach you senior N C O's he said you might as well piss off down the pub, I'll see you later  
Yeah, then the, the old man and about three or four of these N C O's, he was senior N C O, sort of, sort of  corporal and the rest of them were corporal and lance corporal's, but he was the one in charged of the
Yeah
water section  and then maybe, maybe the other month he used to  you get about three thousand rounds of blanks and stuff 
Yeah
like we did eh
did you?
like you do up 
yeah
going for a  that was brilliant I got  and that, and I tried , I had a whole box of er, erm,thing is, when you hold a thousand rounds of ammunition, I got given about two thirds of this box all for myself,so I'm there for about three hours before the exercise  I had and then put the rest in the  then we sat down for another hour filling them up again, superb, we had loads of  bung in the windows  grenades
ain't you?
it, we, we had to do it properly, but the idea of the  machine gun  go in there and go   away 
Me old man right , me uncle, me uncle used to live in a house which used to  digging in the back garden,this piece of fucking dirt and he pulled out this  and its sort of round, my old man's gone, no he, he said er I wouldn't dig there any more
my uncle's gone oh fuck off like this and he started to put his fork in again and we goes, my dad goes well that look distinctly like a three inch mortar shell so I wouldn't put any more in there if, I wouldn't put your fucking fork's in there again if I was you, they had to get the bomb squad out, they diffused it, they found about five fucking mortar bombs 
Really 
in the back of his garden, yeah
.
The thing is  the way the way  
They, they , what they'd been doing was shooting them over and they'd just hadn't been exploded, they said dud shell or something.
Get the bomb squad out any way, but erm, the British army has got a lot of important  that's they way we would fight the Russians, take over a small hamlet, mortify it and that's how the only way we would ever  up the Russian's grass nest, they take it very seriously, so what they did if they tell us how to do it, walks us through, show us what to do, let us do it and then they'd make us do it again, but without any mistakes and that, it was really good and they showed us how to er mortify  up a house, go, going through all the sewers and stuff is quite fun
The thing that gets me though is erm, when they done these exercise you've got to 
yeah
ain't got a 
you don't obviously, but
yeah I know.
It is, it is simulate valve which  basically your out in the open and you see somebody firing the regiment , I know its a bit silly but there is no real way, mind you,
its not, you can't, the thing is you can't defend them without how you die, you can't train people how to avo to die, you can only train them how to avoid it, so it doesn't really matter if you get fired or not, but they show you the drills and you have to do them to the best of your ability  the blank rounds are only there to  the conditions, now this is why they've got these laser  got laser sights all over the body, helmet and torso and the actual weapons got a laser on top and you get, if you get near one of these things you go  dead and your out, and you can actually simulate 
but then again  there, but you, you fire off the blank, that's what triggers  the laser  sometimes if there's been a lot of, we did, we did it in  a couple of time see the old laser go, cor, its got very think red beam, its not like you see these big flashing great big bits of light like on Star Wars and stuff, well its not, its not suppose to hurt you  its a very thin piercing beam, its well impressive.
See the old man was saying when he was doing Salisbury Plain they blew up couple of  and a couple of 
Yeah,that is small hard weapons .
Its about, for, for the kit on use of your body and the stuff that your weapons its about a thousand pounds
Yeah, but its suppose to be  in it.
expense, its er state of the art equipment.
As normal the Americans had it first, had it first 
but we had the  computer system first built 
oh not into battleships Mark.
No.
the only battleship I know about is the girl friend   go away for about three months at a time and you'd say of where's Norman, oh he's er working and then we all knew he's working for a  he'd put them in the computer systems right the way throughout the ships
Yeah 
like I said we at least to go on one complex exercise every month which, although they can't physically make you go on it there was, you know, they more or less made you go sort of thing  pay to do and then we were there the other weekend we had one of these weekends where  be more fun, really hard work though  it'll be more fun for 
See you  
Ah?
You get back 
They still 
that's why they have these  on the end of them  weapon with a yellow fork at the end,but even without that you still get lots of little bits of cardboard come out, its a cardboard wad inside  its the same charge as a  but its a cardboard box, cardboard blank inside
Yeah I've seen them.
and it shoots it out.
You can shoot them at close range  I mean there was a
Giant killers aren't they?
yeah there was an actor erm  and he was playing Russian roulette with  and he put it up to his temple, pulled the trigger the blank went off, bloody blew his brains in.
The thing is, if they always give you  and you, your, nine times out of ten what they do is like, is either, they either put a can over there or a beer or something, they put it over the end of the, the  weapon  pull the trigger and that, even with a flash that can  go like that, and then they show you one with the, the erm  flashes right which have more powerful than the  and they've actually got same again same charge as a life grenade in, but it just plain cardboard so, obviously no trap, but if you lay on them ooh er, you get  or something  you don't throw  what they do now is they put one they light one, put the helmet over the top of it and make it lit, it runs like buggery and it'll go a hundred, a hundred and fifty foot up in the air and inside it looks like its been  and where its been in the thing it'll be like er, six seventy foot off the ground, I mean I laid on one once and I,landed about two foot too my left so I've rolled over, rolled, rolled, and rolled, as I've rolled I've rolled over on my back and I've had all loads of  over, like the, I had a  roll there its like the er 
Yeah I know 
stuff keep the  half way up my back its all  padding and stuff and I've rolled over, as I've rolled over there 's been another one it has gone off, it felt like I've been kicked in the back by somebody really having a go at me, it threw me and even with all that I had a  like that  so there not, there not kiddy toys .
How long ago was this?
Er about, how old was I, I was 
Is it, it looks a bit like a, the one laying down.
I don't know, proper weapons I know that, that's, that's  behind me
Yeah
I turned round and  but still got back in   
I don't believe it, paid all that money for a digital   said look at the  about  stuff, at the end of the day they, he is  five a side football  stuff like that, had  I've been thinking about joining again, but I don't really know what I'm gonna do after Christmas now  even Karen said she wouldn't mind joining but I tried, I managed to put her off that idea.
See the thing is, what they've said to me, because I've been away now for nearly two years erm I'd have to go back and do all the training again, which is a bit of a pain but its not too bad because I've done it before sort of thing, she said to me oh yeah when you go I, I might come along and see if I like it, and we can do the training together she said, I manage to put her off that idea, manage to talk her out of that.
They still don't like you co-habiting with er 
Court marshall.
Yeah do you know if your on duty and you get caught co-habitating did you say, said er, yeah court marshall, discharged you with a , discharge you  
Karen whatever her name is
Yeah, but  married couple there  did have a couple of people there that got married while they were in the T A but they weren't allowed, they never allowed to sort of buddy, buddy together  I tell you why I got put with that woman.
Ah?
Did I tell you why I got  with that girl
Yeah
its really cold, yeah  oh that was good, I enjoyed that  she's still there, she's a Lance Corporal now as well  and I must admit well I, I didn't think she'd ev , she was always crying  but I never thought she'd actually do very well in the T A, didn't seem to have the get up and go about it but she obviously sorted herself out and  got , Spambo Man  they called me.
Shitler
Shitler yeah your right there.
See my nick name in the T A was Vicky, she probably felt save with somebody named Vicky  see people started called me van witty and then it got changed to Wicky then somebody started called me Vicky  and it stuck, she probably thought I'd got a   You know when I look back now I fucking enjoyed  in the T A
My old man in his regiment  they called each other bow.
Bow.
Hello bow how you doing
Everybody was bow was they?
Yeah, it seemed to be a fucking   secrecy I suppose.
Yeah  alright bow.
had a girl from another troop Lynn somebody  can't remember her last name any way her first name was Lynn and as rumour had it, she'd had everybody in the bedroom
Yeah
so we started called her lip, but that happened before I got there so, as I got there it just like, as I joined got in with the regulars it started to peter out a bit, but I got fooled with a couple of times I thought they were taking the piss, alright Lynn how you doing, you know, still .
See the thing was she, she, the best fact the only reason she joined the T A was to get    Right ok love, we will do our best.
Fucking well will  
Yeah good old laugh, I remember my scout motto, I promise that I'll do my best and do my duties  its going back a long, long way brother.
Ah see that girl though, got accused  girl scouts or something, she refused to swear an oath to, to god, because, she wasn't sure there was one, she'd swear it to the queen,
Yeah
but wouldn't take an oath for god so they wouldn't let her in.
You know sort of eleven years old, she said I'm, I'm  god, its not been proved to me, its not been proved
yeah
sort of, so how, how can I swear in all honestly, I thought it was really good.
Girl Guides
I thought how, how can I swear an oath to god in all honestly if I'm not sure there is one, I thought yeah blimming right, I mean, she wouldn't just take, say it  so she obviously said, she obviously said the right theories 
and I thought bloody right, they wouldn't let her in.
as long as we get that cleared up.
As I say, fun, fun, fun I say, like I say  sometimes you can do a  pissing rain in a fucking hole and have about four hours sleep at the weekend, then we get, we get back get into the bar and we'd have a fucking good laugh about it.
You make some really good friends, friends you fucking trust your life on sort of thing or your girl friend  get a million pounds in, in, in a amazingly short time, cos you've got to work together, its really, really good.
Tell you what, I would love to, like to  for me to be a sergeant again and get someone like that in my troop   fucking break him.
Well there  would he, he wouldn't join up any way
No, I mean instead of 
or where ever it is,.
Er, well there is, there is a  there is in every  but I don't know where they main one is  sort of like  in it, I don't know where  I don't know where the, the military stock aid is  I think they've just got  don't they?
Don't know 
with me wrong hand  I don't told you that didn't I, I was well shagged with someone  fucking swim left hand 
The only reason you join the T A was to get out of fucking work weren't it Stuart?
Don't give us that shit
Eh?, the only reason you joined the T A was to get out of work
Get out of work?
Yeah you get two weeks  don't you, two weeks 
British Aerospace was brilliant, as long as I had, I had a good reason to go away they'd give me, they said they'd pay for , I mean one year I did six weeks away  paid and then anot another year I did two months non pay and I still kept me job, that's when I went up the  for two months  all I was just labour  doing it then.
Did they pay you for it then?
Eh, yeah regular army pay, great  that's really what made me decide to join the army, that was in the T A but I  regulars .
All I do I got out sort of the  sort of about eight thirty  and then I, I'd work to about half three and all I'd wanna do is, we, we'd fucking, we'd set up the cable  then we'd all sit down and do nothing while the old erm, the M O D people had obviously  it, and then they tell us to take it down and move it and we move it and set it up again, its like out of a, out of a seven hour day, we'd only work about three or four, like here.
I've got my own silk lips attached to the fucking 
like swallow it 
stick it up her nose and say.
Peace and normality dates 
Eh see that woman who  right?
Yeah
I was fucking like that and the thing come that way
It would of, it would of got me I tell you.
Only 
direction it'd fucking slice me ear off I reckon.
I thought I don't like all the  he's gonna fucking have me, so I sort of got down like that and as he fucking come round the thing must of gone like that, sort of that sort of bearing.
Stu no  Stewart 
Fucking would of been taken me ear off.
Have to wear fucking er .
I wonder if he'll give me this.
Thirteen O one.
Eh?
Yeah you get  two minutes or something don't you?
What?
You get two minutes don't you?
Thirteen O one.
Thirteen O one.
I got that.
No.
I fucking better I think  if he, if I don't get half an hours pay  fucking 
Fifteen minutes  you're allowed.
No, fifteen minutes.
Fifteen minutes and you get docked.
Well I ain't doing sort of I ain't doing nothing  sixteen minutes until it gets back.
You do fuck all anyway Stuart.
Cheeky bastard.
So it's six minutes you'll have to leave him now.
Ah.
Here we go.
I say Barry old chap
.
Yeah they've charged me a fiver's fucking commission on that.
That's outrageous.
Yeah.
Cor.
Shit.
Want fucking shooting.
That's over five percent.
Yeah.
About five an a half, six percent or something.
No no it's not as much as that.
It's about four  
Yeah.
Cos five percent on a  on a hundred pound would be a fiver wouldn't it?
Yeah.
So they charged you er 
About six percent.
five and a half, six percent they charged you.
Fucking  .
I'm sure when I op opened, I'm sure when I got my T S B they  didn't charge me that much.
When I bought  .
Mind you that, that was er travellers cheques and they're usually cheaper anyway aren't they?
They're only a quid for a hundred.
Quid.
Cost me a fiver when I changed that .
Yeah.
T S B.
travellers cheques.
Yeah.
Quid for a hundred wasn't it?
Eh?
Every hundred pound you spend you just put  spend a quid over the top.
Or  every hundred pounds worth of travellers cheques you get.
three hundred pound  
See I'm I'm only allowed to take fifty pounds worth of rand into the country so I've gotta do it all in travellers cheques.
Yeah, it could be right that actually.
Mind you their rate of exchange  if if you'd have bought all pesetas in this country it would have probably been a better rate of exchange for you.
Rather than out there.
No.
That's what she reckons anyway.
She said  she said that 
Well that  I I us I got a better rate of exchange out in S A than I did here.
Yeah but that's probably
When I changed up fifty quid's worth here  erm on the Monday  I got four point three five.
And on the Wednesday when I changed them out there I got four point seven.
Yeah but that's a fluctuation.
That's a lot of fluctu-fucking-ation though.
Yeah, point three five of a rand though.
Or point point three 
But that's still quite a lot.
Point three five of a rand is fucking nothing when you work it out.
Yeah but  yeah to us.
To to English money.
To us.
But they're talking 
Yeah but I mean 
about big business and that.
That's a lot of money.
No
I know it doesn't mean much on a thousand pound or something silly.
But i like it is I mean  it's quite a lot considering the money markets and stuff.
Yeah I know.
I mean that's that's the same as fucking out in Spain last year.
The best rate of exchange I got was  how many pesetas is it to a quid?
I dunno.
Yeah I was, I was getting about hundred and eighty two.
Pesetas to a quid?
Yeah?
Well when we were out there it was ranging from any anything from about a hundred and eighty five to a hundred and ninety six.
So that's eleven pesetas, that's quite a fucking bit.
Used to, used to be over two hundred.
Yeah.
That's right.
Last time I went about three years ago.
When I went out there with Sandra I was told that you normally get a better rate of exchange in the country when you change travellers cheques.
Yeah and she's just ch told me completely the opposite.
Maybe it was the opposite at the time.
She goes oh sorry  all I've got is hundred franc bills.
Okay fair enough.
How many of them can I have?
Well for seventy three forty eight you can have seven hundred.
I didn't think they were gonna fucking hit me for a fiver as well.
That's a bit fucking off isn't it?
What?
Hitting me for a fiver commission as well.
That's a bit fucking off.
You change it back they can stick you again.
If you don't spend it all.
They fucking better not.
You're not allowed, you're not, you're only allowed to change notes as well aren't you?
Notes.
Yeah.
They'll have bricks through the fucking windows at Lloyds.
you don't get  don't get  you don't get the same exchange rate do you?
You get forty percent.
like  twelve francs to get a pound or something.
Yeah.
You get stung when you try to  bring them back.
That'll be a cunt.
I'll walk into a French bank and say can I exchange these back to sterling  and they'll say oh yes and then charge me five hundred fucking francs  again or whatever it is.   no five nines, nine eighteen twenty seven thirty six  forty five francs.
Yes that will be forty five francs commission mons monsieur.
What, is an Italian bank teller working ?
Fuck off.
Eh?
What's a franc?
A ninth of a pound.
Yeah.
Ten p.
You have to work these things out before you go to France  your money won't you?
That's why I'm gonna take this with me I think.
Eh?
I'm gonna take this with me.
I'm going for the  
Ah it's ten p a pint.
Surely even you could work that out without .
It's five hundred francs.
You cheeky fucker .
Fifty quid.
No see that's when me sister went, went out.
She only got four hundred and eighty  odd francs.
See that's how much it's, it's going up and down.
It's fluctuating.
She got four hundred and eighty francs for  for 
If you swear at me you cunt.
fifty quid.
Yeah?
Yeah.
Take twenty francs out.
Yeah.
quid.
Yeah but I paid seventy five  or seventy eight.
And now you got seven hundred.
Yeah.
So for that two hundred francs more  I've lost about eight quid.
So now you see why point three five or whatever is  
So?
Two hundred francs more, ten quid more.
quid.
That's  variation  exchange rate innit?
Yeah.
It's the last time I go to fucking France.
Never been there.
Don't know why you're going there in the first place.
Never been there.
Dive.
Yeah I did.
He's got it.
What?
My Sport.
Stuart was reading it.
Eh?
Oh it's on top there.
fill the old pools coupon out.
Suppose I better start in a minute, hadn't I really?
Why break a habit of a lifetime Stu?
I might have to hurt you for that.
Eh?
I said I may have to hurt him for a remark like that.
I ain't gonna start .
I'm fucking kicking you out in a minute.
And I'll sit here and fart away  
Oh  god.
get home tonight quite easily.
Why don't you go to bed and go to sleep?
I'm feeling that way inclined as well.
Ah!
Yeah cover your knuckles in this stuff and punch somebody  marks out .
Oh god.
Eh?
I think I'm just gonna go round me girlfriend's and sleep after she's given me my food.
Lord knows what she's cooking.
and see cousin Billy.
He'll soon deal with it.
How is cousin Billy nowadays then?
What?
How is cousin Billy now then?
How much it cost you to get over there Tramp?
Eighteen quid.
Eighty?
Eighteen.
Gonna say.
Yeah that's cos he was using the allen key.
I wasn't using 
Who can explain the thunder and rain there's something in the air .
Oh I  
Yeah I also noticed the way he was using the .
It's amazing how soldiers in skirts have always had a hard reputation innit?
Come on, let's be serious.
No that's fucking  pussies.
Eh?
No they  they've  over the years they've got some very fucking good write ups.
One of the toughest regiments.
Apparently.
Carry on up the Khyber.
The devils in skirts.
Yes.
It's all about er  squaddies in skirts and .
Bung ged id in.
Yeah.
He bunged it in.
Bungdidin.
Bungdidin.
Did anyone see that one er  that Carry On film  second world war with er erm a mixed camp?
Yeah.
With them goats?
Yeah.
Yeah.
It wasn't one of the funniest ones.
No.
It's good 
It's good.
The ar the wooden artillery gun.
Yeah.
Bang!
.
That's got another one, got that
Who who's that matey, Kenneth something innit?
Or  
No it's Patrick Mower.
No the the camp commander.
The little guy with the moustache.
Yeah Kenneth Williams.
Kenneth  no.
Kenneth Connor?
Kenneth Connor yeah, that's it.
He was the only one of the original cast in it.
Yeah.
Windsor Davies has appeared in a few but he's er  not one of the regular ones.
Who?
Windsor Davies.
Oh he was the sergeant major weren't he in that 
Yeah he hasn't appeared in many.
Well  what was it?
Erm
Carry On Camp he was in wasn't he?
Yeah.
I liked the  the Tarzan one.
Carry on up the Jungle or whatever?
Yeah, that's it.
Frankie Howard.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And Terry Scott.
Had Terry Scott as Tarzan weren't it?
Yeah.
I think Carry On up the Khyber Pass was famous though with old erm
Roy Roy Castle.
Roy Castle.
Terry Scott.
Yeah it's fucking brilliant that one.
And erm  the one with Harry H Corbett in it.
Er 
No no no no no no.
The film erm  where he was, the monster one.
Carry on Screaming?
Yeah that's it.
What does he play then?
He plays the inspector.
Sergeant.
Or whatever it is.
Yeah .
And erm, what was her name?
There's been lots of good ones.
Fenella, Fenella Fielding.
Who's the erm the big titted wench that's in all of them nearly?
Barbara Windsor.
Barbara Windsor.
No no no the other one that
Joan Sims
Joan Sims.
She used to play really voluptuous ones in the earlier ones and then she was the old tramp wasn't she?
Yeah.
Barbara Windsor that took over  from showing her tits.
Liz Liz Fraser was another one.
Who
Yeah.
who was the one that was in Carry on up the Khyber cos she was tasty?
The the princess?
Angela er er er er  it was Angela something.
Fenella Fielding  
I used to like that  he'd go here get off, get off.
Yeah.
Jack
Jack Douglas.
Jack Douglas.
He's a freak isn't he?
Yeah.
Kenneth Williams  ooh stop messing about.
What was that one?
Where he was in, and archol and archaeologist or something?
And he had that big titted Russian woman in the same  the same caravan on the caravan park.
With er
Yeah yeah I know.
with erm with that matey and
Carry on Camping.
No, Carry on Camping had Sid James in it.
No, that was Car yeah it might have been.
You realise that you  could cause a strike 
.
I know the one you mean though.
An unskilled man 
Yeah and it had  Windsor Davies in it didn't it?
Yeah.
and  the matey who  who who was the one that
Oh that was
who was the one who played the missionary in Carry on up the Khyber pass and that?
Played the who?
Missionary.
The one 
Oh  god I can't remember.
The one that was caught bonking in the very beginning sort of thing.
Can't remember his name.
Tried to convert that  girl.
I tell you the one I like was Carry on er Beau Geste or something like that, Carry on 
Yeah.
Who was that matey?
Jim Dale.
Jim Dale.
He's fucking brilliant 
He's been in some good ones actually.
he is.
Carry on Doctor and
Cos that was the same matey wasn't it?
As his butler?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Bilko was in it weren't he?
Old Phil Silvers was in it.
Yeah Phil Silvers.
He'd been screwing all day and he'd walk into the camp fucking going 
Yeah.
He he'd wreck himself wouldn't he?
Get another medal for it.
Yeah he was Commandant Le Pew or something wasn't it?
I say this is not cricket what?
I say , are we allowed to do manual labour?
Wanted to borrow a screwdriver.
As our shop  steward representative  I don't think we can allow this sort of thing brothers.
That's what I mean.
People down here being made redundant and he comes in
Haven't you got anything better to do?
No.
Here you are.
Where's this thingybob  then?
Sonny.
What's a Russian 
It's also the Jewish one.
The Jewish 
Yeah.
Jewish trying to teach them English.
And he'd go one  two  three four five sex .
Oh yeah 
And that girl  as well.
She was always like the nice one in there wasn't she?
I used to like Carry on, oh what was it?
Erm the nursing ones as well.
jelly weren't it?
Yeah that's that  the nursing ones were good.
Er the  ones were good as well.
.
Who saw Jasper Carrot last night?
Anybody see him?
that karaoke shit hot.
Eh?
Anybody see Jasper Carrot last night?
Yeah.
No.
Fucking brilliant.
was all 
I just saw the bit where he was on about the erm short sighted hedgehog.
And the dog going  down his leg.
.
Remember you can make a friend for life.
There's a vet like this  he's got a fucking bone in his mouth and the dogs his fucking leg .
I just saw it 
I like the bit with the detectives.
It's called the detectives right?
There's Robert Powell and him
Yeah.
and old Ruby Wax was in it last night.
Yeah.
And she comes up and she goes  good day  lieutenant Kerawski from  New York the N Y P D like this.
And she goes up to the two blokes and she grabs them by the balls and goes mm not bad, nice butt, you know?
And all this sort of shit.
Who?
No.
Who is?
Yeah.
Who's going?
Who's going?
Chicken.
Who's he?
what's his name?
Eh?
Going is he?
Chicken?
Oh yeah I know chicken , yeah.
The one who used to walk round the corner and get round that corner and give it all that.
And fucking Dave  reckoned there was a piece of wire  running across that fucking corner just down the bottom there.
You know where the ferrangi is?
Yeah.
It's down there.
It's down there
What?
.
Cos every time Jerry'd walk round that corner he'd give it all that.
He's fucking got a terrible twitch, a real nervous twitch hasn't he?
He'd say watch him, watch him  as Jerry was fucking walking along.
And there'd be about  ten or P ten or twelve people fucking watching Jerry walk up  walk round that corner.
Every time he got to that corner it'd be  like that, all fucking  giving it some of that.
Fucking awful really.
It can be the sign of a nervous breakdown.
Somebody s somebody does a  er develops a nervous twitch and stuff.
No, he's had it for a long time.
Yeah.
I'm not  saying he hasn't, but you know  that can be the sign.
You don't say.
You could even give the bosses a Christmas 
Would you still work?
present couldn't you?
Here you go Mr .
I've 
You still work?
bought you this  fifteen up fucking boot.
Yeah, probably.
. Depends how much I won.
Millions.
Yeah, I'd probably fuck off for a year and do my own thing and come back and maybe take  take, maybe start my own business.
I'd love to start my own car re erm refurbishment business you see.
Like  that's how I got that two and a half grand.
By doing up old cars and selling them.
No way in the world, if I won a million pounds  again.
Yeah?
I'd only do something I enjoyed.
Yeah.
Like it's different if you're working for yourself because at the end of the day it all goes in your own pocket.
Any, any profit you make.
I dunno.
See you in a few years time with fucking .
Cos Charles is off the er  drugs .
He was reputed to have personally killed five men because he, they done his head in.
Amongst them a former work colleague  Tramp .
Alias  Mark.
A reformed hippie  with a food complex.
Stuart the wanker .
Alias the git.
Who is still at large, unknown  whereabouts unknown.
If apprehended  all care should be taken when a 
That's Chris  's right hand man.
when approaching this suspect 
Barry the  Barry the weasel 
because he smells a bit.
Then he .
Yeah and  Chris  's right hand man and  Barry the knife .
this old boy.
it's the getting caught business innit?
getting caught business .
We'd all be criminals if we couldn't get caught.
Have you seen this man?
Chris he done my head in .
He done my head in so I shot him in it.
I suppose you almost got kicked out, or  did you?
Eh?
Did you almost get kicked out?
No,get out the house at the time.
I don't know what  though.
Keeping the fucking cup now.
Otherwise I'd have put a brick through your window.
Fucking joking aren't you?
Were you out  out of it at the time or what?
No.
Come back from work!
Half hour at work and it .
Bit pissed.
me sister 
I've heard of parents shopping their sisters.
Knowing my old man he'd probably fucking turn me in.
No I doubt if he'd do that.
He hates the old bill anyway.
At the end of the day  fuck all wrong with it.
Give me a  sit down and a good fucking stern talking to.
sister ?
Eh?
sister ?
Yeah.
You got any sisters  sisters?
One sister.
Eh?
She does .
What's she like?
Eh?
Married with two kids.
Judging by him she must be fucking ugly.
If she's anything like him.
Married with two kids.
So  do you get on with her?
No.
Don't even speak to her.
Take that as a no then.
Get on with her?
Can't be bothered speaking to her.
She's older than you I take it then?
Don't know where she lives.
She older or younger?
You don't know where your own sister lives?
No.
Close family then.
Well I, I'm a right family man I am.
Can't be bothered to get out the fucking house can you?
I know where she used to live.
Have you got a sister?
Know where she lives?
I've got two.
Are they nice?
Ring me up this piss up.
She  boring though.
Who's that?
My sister.
She fucks doesn't she?
Your sister.
I've just deep-throated that banana.
You've had plenty of practice so I hear.
Karen's been trying to do that.
She can't manage it yet.
She'll get  you have to sort of get over the gagging.
Does she?
Fuck off Stuart.
You haven't got a prick  big enough.
Oh come on!
No  as soon as it gets anywhere past the top, you only have to have about a four inch dick.
So you're alright.
Yeah I suppose so.
.
Cos as soon as soon as you get anything down to about there where your swallowing thing is 
Yeah.
you have to try and overcome the gagging don't you?
I mean you can make your  your fingers so you can fucking stick a dick down there.
And every time my, every time she tries a deep-throat she panics.
Starts going 
So I said is that going  is that 
Is that alright?
is that too far?fucking 
It's not, it's not good manners speaking with your mouth full.
She likes giving head but she doesn't like swallowing.
She only swallows as a special treat if I've been really good or something.
Or if I'm really  
Merry Christmas!
Yeah.
Slurp.
Ah.
She hates it.
Apparently it's like sucking  I dunno  salty warm yogurt .
That sort of consistency.
Well I've never heard it de described like that before.
That's what she says.
She says it   the same sort of consistency as yogurt but it's salty and it's warm and it's not very nice at all she said.
Well you read in them porno mags fucking girls love it.
Yeah I know.
If you ever read a porno mag they're fucking 
My last girlfriend used to though.
No mine
Jean never.
She used to, she used to love swallowing it.
Oh it was great.
I tell you what, I never used to shag her hardly at all.
She used to like giving head so much I used to fucking right drop them  yup slurp  that was it.
It was fucking  gobble you off in the kitchen with me parents upstairs and stuff like that.
You did it without?fucking mad.
Well I got up there  started fucking going for it  .
Wouldn't mind so much but they kept taking the piss out I was wearing my socks.
Yeah Mark  apparently he's got the second biggest cock that this had ever seen.
Are you sure 
Yeah 
she said you've got the second biggest cock or you are the second biggest cock she's ever seen?
Fuck off.
No she said I've  got the second biggest co cock I mean that she'd ever seen.
She goes round looking at cocks does she?
Well yeah, she's fucking must have you know   about a bit.
And they shagged without a condom.
Do you know how babies are made?
Yeah.
I didn't c 
Do you know about AIDS?
Yeah.
I didn't come of her.
You don't have to come of her.
Didn't get a fucking chance.
You get a discharge without fucking  
It's true.
semen, really.
No, not semen.
I mean it's the sperm that's 
You you either get a pre  a pre-cum  shit out of it.
And that contains a small amount of sperm.
I mean she used to toss, toss me off on the old  and there's, there's   and she used to sit on there  used, used to sit on there  she used to  to toss me off and I got this fucking  as she's tossing me off she did this love bite.
Oh it was like that.
That's how fucking this AIDS is spreading.
People can't  can't be responsible.
They're just shagging without condoms.
And if she's had a few your a stupid fucker for even being 
Yes.
up there in the first place without anything.
told me  until afterwards.
I still wouldn't do it.
Apparently she's going with some bloke who 
There's no way I would fucking shag a girl 
No it's fucking 
without 
No.
Not with somebody you've just met.
Obviously if  you're having a long-term relationship  and you know she's not shagging anybody else and she's not on the  and she is on the pill.
The day that I first shagged Karen without a condom was about fucking two, two or three months into a relationship.
We'd been shagging for about a month.
So were you shagging  Jenny with a condom as well?
Yeah.
All the time.
She was on the pill  as well but she
Yeah I know.
But I mean
I'm not stupid.
I know enough about fucking AIDS and shit to worry about it.
Really  for women though.
women .
Do they?
I don't, I peo blokes seems to say oh yeah I hate using condoms.
You wouldn't catch me using one of them.
But  I don't feel as if , I mean it's  it's not the most pleasant thing in the world but it's certainly fucking sa it's safer than a lot of their more  easier to put on and take off than and fucking safer and more effective than a lot of their contraception devices.
And er
four johnnies sitting 
and
Eh?
The what?
Four johnnies .
I don't know.
I just I just don't see why 
blokes don't use them.
Got  and two  extra sensitive.
I mean it's not as good as  without but  it's still fucking good.
don't really care do you?
If you don't find it good with a condom there's something wrong with you.
Hallo, who's been nicking suits?
When you going to  France, tomorrow Mark?
Er Sunday.
What's this, with The Sun?
No I do well I don't know.
No idea.
Usually the old Sun  every year don't they?
Yeah.
No I think theirs was a couple of weeks ago.
Because that  that Zeebrugge disaster was The Sun as well wasn't it?
Why bother going  why go  on Sunday?
Why go on Sunday,closed?
No.
No.
No.
Not in France.
Never been to France.
It's only in England that it's all closed.
Or Britain that it's all closed.
Been through it.
Isle of Wight.
Yeah .
I can't remember .
I've been to Calais before.
I hope we go to Boulogne next time.
They reckon that Boulogne's better.
Been to the Isle of Wight.
Wow.
See old Sarah's been kidnapped on Emmerdale Farm?
Don't watch it.
Do you watch it Cherub?
No you wouldn't.
You'd be down the pub wouldn't you?
Thinking of missing the Friday night sesh then Cherub?
I'm tempted at the moment I'm telling you.
You footballing tomorrow or not?
No.
Lay in.
Why ain't there no football tomorrow?
Too far to go.
Sheffield Wednesday.
That's just  couple of junctions up from Nottingham.
About another hour er er about another hour?
Hour and a bit.
you could go and see .
Yeah.
not in a .
Mister  himself.
No apparently  I'd gone in the bog, I wasn't feeling bad or anything.
He said, said you were just standing there and all of a sudden he said you looked at me  looked back at the wall just went  pee   he said it's all come out, it's all splattered all over the wall  he said, you did your fly up, wiped your mouth, washed your hands and went out again as if nothing had happened.
He said I was left stood there with this other mate on me other side going   what's he had to drink ?
I can't remember fuck all about it.
But this must be the first time I've puked for  about two years.
But I had a lot to drink and that's that time I was telling you about.
Fucking fifteen pints or something.
I was telling Mark 
they reckon I climbed up the outs the outside of a fucking  multi-storey car park for two flights.
Oh I do   I sort of I do do things like that.
I can't remember that but 
this  this girl at fucking Wokingham fair.
This girl she was well  and she got on this fucking roundabout  you know, one that swings out?
She got on there and you could see she was gonna throw.
She had  a pile of fucking chips and  
You're not gonna say this old couple fucking put their hand out and  
No, she took  on there she's gone ooer all the fucking way round.
There was puke all the way round.
silly bitch.
I can't remember nothing about this.
I can't remember  apparently like I said  I I didn't say I'm gonna be sick.
I didn't look it I just stood there   apparently  fucking splattered against the wall, dribbled down and I didn't fucking .
I just wiped my mouth and washed my hands.
Yeah there's this multi-storey car park .
Go down  go down a level for the first 
Yeah.
And there's like a brick wall about that high and there's two flights above it.
And what  say where's, where's the old car?on the second floor.
virtually second  and me and this matey said go on, race you.
Right?
So he's fucking  ground floor so I thought fuck this.
And I got up on the wall  right?
Got up on the wall 
He did his donkey climb bit didn't you Stu?
leapt across the like fucking ledge, you know they're not very high erm presumably  
Sixteen foot across it was.
get to this ledge.
Climbed up the outside of this ledge you know like  car park.
Stood on the  of that wall  reached up, pulled myself up that wall.
stood there  
Where the fucking hell's the car then?
Where the  hell the car then?
. And all the time he's on the ground floor.
And all because Stuart loves black  black magic  .
And all I could remember and all the  the only thing I can remember about that was  running after the car with .
Do what?
Fucking messing about something  and I can't remember a thing about it.
You do that when you're pissed.
I do anyway.
I  do fucking  when I do silly things like I rip bus stop signs 
It's only cos you're a wanker isn't he?
bus stop si bus stop signs off the fucking things.
He's taking the piss out of you.
Nick road signs and stuff.
That's the last thing you've ever done you cunt.
Fucking nea ooh  groin strain.
Fucking as I did that me whole fucking foot went.
I never know whether they're taking the piss or not cos I can't remember it.
I have about eight pints and I blank out.
I can't remember anything about the whole evening.
Just like, like bits and pieces.
Stu.
Should you wish to accept this mission.
This pint of Guinness will self-destruct in five seconds.
Yeah.
got really pissed and can't remember what you've done.
It's bad.
have a pint of erm .
Wait wait waiting for them to say something.
Yeah.
I said  one night er this matey's come up to me, and he's like one of me mates and that and he said fucking hell you had a skinful the other night didn't you?
I said who told you that?
He says you stupid cunt  I was out with you most of the evening .
I couldn't even remember he was fucking sat there with me.
me mate  down Torquay.
Yeah.
I thought he was down Devon?
Said no he come back Friday.
He goes  party  Friday Friday night 
That was the first I knew about it.
Well I never do, I haven't even been doing anything.
All I do is fucking drink.
It'd be a right nightmare if I did drugs as well.
Wouldn't know what the fuck was going on.
Bit like here.
about fucking  I'll have a pint of lager please.
I drunk these fifteen pints and I fucking looked as if I was dead.
I wouldn't drink 
All I did, all me and my mate did was sit there all day Sun Saturday  and just fucking veg out in front of the telly.
Feeling rough?
Yeah, feeling fucking rough.
And I  last Friday I had, I had a skinful as well.
That's why I went sh I had a hangover, a raging fucking hangover 
Thing is don't  skinful .
You watch, he'll get in that pub and fi first thing he'll fucking do is I'll have a pint of lager please.
Be on the fucking wagon.
The first one may take a bit of time getting down but after that it
It always does.
Always does  till about nine o'clock.
it'll  oh the first or three always t 
and they always fucking take their time getting down.
Yeah.
Once they go down though you've started
It's totally the opposite with me.
If I've got my drinking head on it'll be the first three pints in about fifteen minutes if that.
Oh no I can't do that.
If I was left to it the first pint would go about 
I did that in fucking 
thirty minutes, forty minutes.
The second pint about thirty minutes.
And then after that I'd be drinking like a pint every twenty minutes or so.
No, I fucking  once upon a time I used to be able to do it.
It's fucking  rock and roll.
like if  say we would, we would get out by about seven.
By about nine o'clock right  my mate would have say five or six pints inside him and I'd have two pints sat there on the fucking table.
And he'd be call oh you lightweight, you gonna drink it?
And I'd be going fuck off, they're mine sort of thing.
By  by half ten
by half ten he'd have a fucking pint sitting there and I'll be going come on then you cunt.
Get the next round in.
What time is it chaps?
Ten past.
What time?
Ten past.
Ten past?
Yeah.
Ten past?
Ten fucking past .
Ten pa 
So what?
Ten past.
I thought it was about half three or something.
That's what.
It's fucking shot by and I ain't done any work.
So what's new?
It doesn't normally shoot by though .

What do you want, a packet of crisps?
Yeah.
I want a packet of crisps.
Oh.
You don't want very much  the milkman left us two pints of milk this morning  help me.
Put one on the table and the other in the fridge.
Oh well  er  Jack?
Yes  
Yeah  yeah.
Oh  no I don't, well yeah.
Aha.
No, no that is, that's 
I want Twiglets 
that's it  that's all we've got.
I want some twiglets I want some twiglets.
No  not if you're gonna open, not unless you're gonna open it.
Oh.
Oh go on, let them open, I'll have a few with my tea.
Yeah.
I turn on  today.
erm  if you want to.
Yeah.
I actually called Del out today.
Sorry?
I caught Del out  twice.
Caught an him out?
Yeah  actually out in the cleaning.
Oh right  I see what you mean.
He looked at me and he went urgh its her and he ran down.
I think I'll throw these cuttings away.
Yes  they're not doing anything are they?
Not these.
Apart from sitting there and dying.
Sitting there and dying.
lonely.
Yeah  ah  oh yeah we've got plenty of milk haven't we?
Yes.
Let me do that  Mum.
Let's do that.
Can I?
Yes, if you would please  Don't eat them all Daddy wants some.
I won't.
Not made of glass you know.
Move Ben.
Ben!
Pain!
Mhm.
What's that?
it's really good.
He's really funny .
I like him.
Yes  that's pretty near the truth  being nasty to you now  Do you want to have some of those chipsticks then?
No  I'm not   are not having anything this   for Christine.
Ah  okay  ah now what was
What was that?
just thinking.
What?
I mean a lot of our conversations go on with the television on in the background.
Yeah, well we'll have to try it and see how it works.
Mm.
I mean  if that  upsets it  then we'll 
Yeah 
yeah quite.
We'll have to try.
They get, they get what they get.
Yes  yes.
Right  Don't eat all those twiglets will you?
No  Who moi!.
Yes you.
You're not supposed to say that.
What am I supposed to say then?
.
Shall I put all this in the bag?
I was just going to grab the book.
Which book?
and start it off.
is it a blue book  that's the white one.
Yeah.
The blue one is for yourself.
Yeah 
Dad 
that's that for when I've done the first ten tapes.
Dad 
Yeah eleven to go.
I want to do it together 
Can you help Daddy, now  find the erm 
Yeah if you just leave it down behind there.
will use it as a  microphone   .
Ah.
Dirty look   No  don't you say a word    you  you're wicked .
I'm not going to 
Do you want a banana?
Mm, that'll be nice.
Ben!
Hello, it's the thing about spoken English.
Microphone man .
I'll turn it off if you like.
Dad?
Mhm.
Do you think I could have a go 
Sorry?
Do you think I could wear that for a little while?
No it has to be me.
Why?
No, it has to be Daddy.
Why?
Because I'm the sample.
You're a sample .
Mhm.
That's funny weren't it?
Can you get some more of those they're nice.
Are you sure you don't want a cup of tea?
No thanks.
Anybody want some more twiglets?
Mm
I'll have some.
few more.
Oh.
I'll have a few more 
Yeah.
Can't get them out  you hold on.
I had a cup of tea round Heathers the other night, I don't know what it was.
Are you gonna keep that on my right shopping as well?
I don't know.
Oh.
I might do  depends if anybody doesn't like it.
Cos we'll have to ask Grandma and we'll have to ask Vicky.
Yeah.
That's a good girl.
Was it the checkout girl we always go to?
Yeah.
Oh and we 
We already had her last week.
Grandpa when she   Grandma?.
an make mm.
She missed you last week.
Did she?
Mm.
Oh.
I love the way they just flow  it's incredible really  Don't be stupid .
Do they?
Mm.
When they're ready now   wonder what century they are at now  thank you Ben  leave  there's a good boy  If a proper lady was here we'd shut you in the kitchen   claws on the lino and I think what's he doing?he wasn't scratching  and we  and he  chasing a fly round the kitchen .
Didn't you   were chasing a fly Ben  eh?
Is that nice big juicy one  was it  mm?
Was it a nice big juicy fly?
Mum  You know that fifty pee you owe me?
Yes I know that fifty pee that I owe you I haven't forgotten about it.
Doesn't matter.
Mm?
You can  if you like  Oh you're supposed to say no, not okay.
You're supposed to say no it's alright dear 
Here Ben 
don't worry dear.
That's two boxes ?
Still come round my house
No it's it's, she was a bit over the hill  for it I'm afraid .
Ooh.
nineteen 
Well she was th mm  she was looking for  she was looking for somebody Re, who was in a particular age group.
Mm  thirty five to forty five.
Oh,
Yeah, thirty five to forty five, cos they have to take it so many from each age group
Yeah.
so they get er spread over the whole th the population 
Dad, Mum?
and so er I was it.
Dad there was this alien he had these ginormous hands and silver eyes and he was really ugly
like  just a minute, this Philip Schofield guy is popping up everywhere doesn't he?
He does    Can that hear the T V?
Probably  I don't know how successful it'll work but if I don't record conversations 
Actually the little red light is flickering up and down  I don't know
No it's  Oh yeah
That's when you talk  that's what 
Oh so it's picking it up.
I er it seems to be okay
Mm  yeah, it's when you talk.
Yeah, it's it's flickering when I talk  yeah
Are you going to wear it tonight?
Erm  I expect so.
Mum, do you know Vicky?
Don't lose it there or you'll have to 
pay for it.
Mm.
Mum, I don't think she 
But if I don't record it  record when the television is on  I'm not going to get very much at all.
No, you're not.
So what 
As the television is always on .
Oh no it's not always on.
No alright.
But if the televisions not on, the cd is .
Yeah, music we've normally got some noise going on in the background.
Dad?
Yeah?
Guess what I've got to buy?
Mm  what?
Can you guess?
I got erm, no English is   R S  Sega, Sciences
Mind your tea Chrissie  dog, mutt.
and Geography as well go  go on forever.
Mm.
Who's is that?
Well they're not yours.
I realise just today how
Mm.
small  the back  the back problem that she's got is.
Oh.
I saw a little girl in the hospital
Mhm.
and she wasn't o , she didn't have a hump on her back, but it looked as though her whole rib cage was at a 
Mm.
sort of forty degree angle to 
Yeah.
the body.
Ah.
Don't know.
I don't want Grandma 
What time have we gotta go?
About ten past?
Five  well what time does it start, five past?as long as they're down before half past seven.
Did you phone that hairdressers for me?
No I haven't yet
Why?
erm  I'll phone up tomorrow.
Only if I'm going I might as well come up with you and get it all done together aren't I?
It's not the musical one is it?
No.
Its in black and white  Take after a lot of the Nazis are strange.
Mm  Is there anything worth recording  tonight?
Murder most horrid
Oh.
and Canned Carrot
Ha.
and that's about it.
Elliot gave Civil Servants   
.
a good reputation .
Ah.
I wonder if Dad's got his other dog yet?
Yeah  yes.
We'll soon know when they come here.
Well providing he doesn't  erm
I wonder how his foot is actually.
Yeah.
I wonder if he's been to the doctors with it.
No.
I don't expect so, no.
like that.
It's about that long  and it 
and it 
just came up over night  till we found out in the morning  well you can see it can't you  Oh you  did you see it?the swelling on your dad's foot.
Yeah  yeah I did.
If I had a swelling like that come up on my ankle I'd  say right go to the doctors.
Just one more and I'll do just have a quick look round the outside see if they're here.
Mhm.
I really enjoyed my day off today   .
Lets face it theirs wasn't  to pick from  should say  really miserable.
I expect she was worried.
No 
No not worried  she said you walk in, you get changed, and you sit back and that's it, silence.
Oh.
Nobody speaks.
Mm  Can I have a few more  thank you.
What?
Oh okay  I'll set a little game.
Will you?
Yeah.
I liked it knowing what I want.
No it's horrible cos you just sit down an that's it.
It was a good idea taking your own dressing gown though wasn't it?
Mm.
There was one girl there today, she was about fifteen or seventeen  and she had to put her coat on over the top of the gown because it was 
Oh.
all open down the back and you had to walk out through a huge waiting room full of people.
Well that's bad isn't it?
That's awful isn't it?
Yeah  mm.
Would they lend you a dressing gown?
Well normally they'd given them dressing gowns before but it's the first time they've had gowns isn't it?
White gowns.
Yeah they had gowns before and that's what, remember?.
Oh yeah, that's right you had to hold yours up together as well.
Mm.
Don't go in there  and that could have gone down my whole body as I was walking through everything  keeps falling off.
Just think that's going to pick up all your tummy gurglings   gurgle gurgle .
Do you think we could have a listen to this?
Well  the only way you can listen to it
Mm.
Is on the headphones.
Couldn't you stick them on me?
How long will one of those tapes last then, Tony?
Forty five minutes  well each side is forty five minutes.
And 
Well  I don't know but it's still going.
There's a tape counter on it.
Sorry?
There's a tape counter on it.
Oh it just gives the numbers though.
Do you just clip that on your trousers?
Yeah.
You'll have to watch it don't come off then, when you get in the car.
Yeah  yeah I will  let's see here we  what are we recording?
Gran what was it you wanted?
I'm coming out.
Erm  oh what was it?
Mum  colour
That's right.
I was 
Ah that's a shame
Mm  yeah, yeah.
Don't like practical
No, I , I  mm mm.
Why don't you like practical?
Well I like it but  got to use booklet an I erm supposed to hand it in you see   ha  I'm going to hand it in next week.
Okay.
Mm, I can't stop munching these.
No they're er  they're good aren't they  they're nice.
Mm  I prefer these things to biscuits.
Yep  I think you're probably right.
Cos they're softer.
No.
Just trying to find a place that's a bit more comfortable for you.
.
Mm.
No musical today?
No.
I think probably   Tony, do you want to take one of these letters before we go out?
Yes please.
English.
What is it called Mushroom Treasury?
you're you're you're you're a National Treasury in spoken English .
Dad, mind you don't put your
jumper over it  does that little there  that flashes and it get really big.
What little thing?
The little light on 
Do you want me to do that?
No.
Is it there?
Yeah  no it is.
Alright?
There you go.
Okay.
Wired for action.
Oh dear.
Is it still recording?
Yeah  well I don't see any point in starting and stopping really  Have you got the 
You got it there 
Twenty tapes to get through we'll need to get going.
Yeah  I'll take 
When's he coming back to pick it up?
Next Friday night.
Oh.
Ooh
I've got to pop upstairs a minute.
Erm
Okay.
you got the shopping bags?
No I'll get those  can you  do me a favour and put those boxes underneath
Yeah.
I've got to er
Well if, okay
after lunch.
You're mad then  Polly's gone upstairs with Jacqueline then.
Oh hell.
Okay.
Right you take these to  alright?and nappy bags, ooh.
Yes.
I've got the shopping bags.
Oh thank you.
Here.
An I put my er  wallet in your handbag.
Yeah  oops  You nearly had a head full of  didn't you Ben?
Ben!
Come on, in your box  there's a good boy  now stay  good boy.
I take .
Yeah  it's alright I drew the cash.
Yeah, but we're gonna see if we can get you a pair of shoes aren't we?
Yes, we are gonna see if we can get you a pair of shoes  Do you want some shoes .
They're alright.
Do they look alright?
They just let in water 
Yeah.
Come here Chrissie  Your Daddy's got you collared.
It's alright  look  if we  if its nice.
Where the hell did you get that one from.
London?
No the whole terrace .
You got your collar all
it's all colour, you need lots of it  the age of the hippy.
Oh.
Mum  can you sort my collar out.
Come here then.
I don't like that.
Turn it round.
Come on Daddy.
He's doing his shoes up.
I'm trying to hurry.
Come on.
Did you do those videos.
Yep.
Oh great.
Erm 
.
Oh yeah   notice you didn't know you had them until we clear out the wardrobe.
No I didn't know I had these things.
So you're , oh that's your wool hat.
Yeah.
Mum I didn't know I had them.
Your Dad still .
The, yeah  the leather, the .
Smells terrible.
I haven't got my keys  I'll go and get them.
No, it's alright I've just put mine away.
No  erm car keys.
Oh  Tony if I leave my seat in  will you lock the door?
Yeah.
Or have you got my bag then.
I've got my house keys.
Oh yeah  shopping bags?
Oh.
Here are.
Thank you  I'm hopeless.
I know  come on then.
Oh I'll leave that one up.
Grandma will turn on the radio?
Wait a minute.
No, leave it off Christine.
Got your lights on.
No we're not even away yet.
Oh.
I'm putting my belt on.
Thanks for taking me down anyway.
Oh that's no trouble  it's practically on the way so
I'm keeping your seat warm for you Tony.
Okay.
If things had turned out differently I'd been driving you down here.
Ah  never mind  it won't be long.
No it won't be long  saying that a year ago.
I think half of its nerves.
Yeah.
It's all nerves.
It's like you the first time weren't it.
Yeah.
Oh come on  don't play me up, we'll have to check this.
Got a bit cold have you Jack?
Yeah  cold and damp that's the two things that it doesn't like.
No, it's not I thought it was a bit thin.
Ah mm  Oh she thinks she's nice and thin  Thank you very much.
Your welcome.
Okay.
I'll see you tomorrow night then?
Okay then.
Yeah  worst luck.
Cheerio  cheerio Christine.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Oh cr 
Mum, would you just sit up there with the bike  like a twist bike.
Hurry up.
Put the radio on now.
Can I put the radio on?
Yeah.
I think a lot of it was to do with the fact that I'd never driven in the dark before.
Well yeah, it's bound to throw you, I mean its 
Mm.
it's the first time you drove in the dark was on your driving test  wasn't it?
Yeah  I must admit I think that a little bit erm
It was unfortunate
Yeah
but it was .
I suppose I could have er  looking at 
Was it as dark as this?.
By the time I'd finished, yes  it was pitch dark.
Well the only thing you can do is hopefully your next test isn't at the same time  make it a 
Yeah.
different time.
But in any event it would be a good idea if I had some tests  some lessons in the dark.
Might be  I mean ask Brian, see 
Mm.
what he can do because
Yeah
I mean I knew  the first day I drove in the dark was the first night we had the car and it was most odd experience
Yeah.
I mean  first day 
I found it 
driving a brand new car and then
Yeah.
driving in the dark for the first time, ha.
Yeah  I'd find it quite difficult  well I could see the headlights  coming up  and I was thinking  now how fast is that car coming up  I don't really know.
Yeah  and the thing is also being  new to driving you tend to look at the headlights rather than look away from them.
Yeah.
And that doesn't help because  I don't know, it wasn't, I don't think you'd find it was as dark as this.
Mm.
Not at four o' clock, its not quite that dark at
half past, yeah
Yeah.
but not this dark at four, not yet.
Well he had to switch on the interior light to be able to fill out the form.
Oh yeah, it's pretty dark but not 
Mm.
it's not black like this.
Mm.
Are you, what are you doing tomorrow, are you coming in with me?
Erm  yeah.
Friday.
Yeah.
Good.
I'm coming with you  I've got to do er  I've gotta do some prep 
it's nice to have someone to talk to.
Yeah, but you may be recorded.
I don't care.
Oh.
Nice chap.
Where did he come from?
He came out of the Harvester but it would have been nice if he'd waited  for there to be a gap in the traffic .
Yeah.
If you see what I mean.
Yeah  Oh he wasn't gonna wait 
.
either.
Oh dear.
Ah  it's gonna be one of those nights tonight .
Yeah I think so  I must admit from one point of view  I'm quite glad that I  haven't  passed  cos 
Why?
it's a bad  as you said it's a bad time to start driving now there's an awful lot of
Idiots come out.
idiots on the road  especially coming 
last 
up to Christmas
Yeah, last Christmas was a real eye opener to me, cos the Christmas before
Mm.
I didn't drive very much cos my Dad was still so bad I only did 
Yeah.
the essential journeys
Mhm.
and I mean I then I'd only just had my operation an and to actually  drive  for longer than about  twenty minute journeys was killing  so 
Yeah.
I only drove over to to do the shopping and to pick Christine up from School.
Yeah.
That was all.
Yeah you're right I look at the headlights.
Yeah you must do you see you've got to 
Mm.
look  if you've got to concentrate on anything, concentrate on the white line or
Yeah.
the kerb  certainly the white line if you can
Yeah.
cos if you concentrate on the kerb you tend to drive a bit too close to it
Yeah.
and also it's not always there for you to see easily
No.
whereas the white line is  But if you look into the headlights it can be  not dark  erm but  it appears to be dark because
Well your pupils re erm
they react into the headlights.
react into the headlights, yeah  so it makes it seem darker.
And you've gotta be careful as well at night not to hang on to the tail lights of the thing in from of you
Mm.
cos it's very easy to do it because they're two little red beacons
Yes.
you know you've still got to look ahead
Yes.
and concentrate on what's happening
Yes.
further up the road.
There was one point during my test when I was driving along and erm  the I was creeping forward in a stream of traffic and the person in front of me had crossed the solid white line at some traffic lights  and the lights changed and it would have been very easy to follow his lights and just carry on
Yeah.
but I didn't I stopped  
But you see it every day  I mean
Yeah.
You know I've had it happen the lights have changed just as I've been crossing them so I've gone over and three cars immediately behind me have followed me.
Yeah.
We're gonna have to get a tyre gauge I reckon  they've got a new depth of tread  one point six millimetres which is bigger than the.
Now he's gonna be sneaky now .
No the only thing that consumed me I was looking to see if there was anyway  that material from the seat could be used to sort of target us for a mailing system or something like that
No but it can't
Not  not if they stick by th what they've said
Yes and it's more than they 
Well yeah.
We even know where it came from.
Yes  that's right  He was travelling wasn't he?
Well on the wrong side of the road as well just a bit rather nutty.
Yeah.
Are we gonna have another go at Christine's bedroom this weekend?
Could do, yep.
Do you want to see if we can finish it Christine.
Yep.
How about if we went out and bought the desk  erm 
Yes  yes Mummy.
Now wait  erm Saturday?
Yeah.
Only we I don't, I don't know about you but I don't want to leave it until the last minute
No  No 
I'd rather 
Mum.
We're gonna have to take these for Christmas shopping.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well  we've got to finish sorting it out Chris cos there's still too much stuff  for once it's 
Can I 
when it's completely sorted out Chrissie  erm  oh I don't really know what to say, she's having this desk for Christmas
Yeah.
once her bedroom is sorted oh well, well we'll have a talk about it later on okay?
It's whether we put the desk in the room.
It's whether we do it now and we let her have it before
Mhm  and then she'll feel she's not had anything for Christmas.
No I won't.
Well  this or
Find a cheaper one.
We'll have a think through.
Well she'll still get her ch her stocking and
Yeah.
a voucher for Christmas.
Yeah  and she'll have other things to open on Christmas day won't she.
Yes, I don't think she's going to be short, do you?
A bit like with the keyboards isn't it  two keyboards for a birthday present.
The thing the desk you can use  once we've got your bedroom sorted out
Yeah.
but Christine it's gonna be  arranging that desk is gonna take a whole er oh  arranging the bedroom is gonna take a whole day  cos you're wardrobe is too heavy to move on it's own it's got to be taken apart
Yeah.
Okay?
I really want it in.
But it's gonna take a long time, it's not gonna be a  quick half hour job
Yeah  It's gonna involve a lot of moving as well 
Well no not  the heaviest thing is your wardrobe
Yeah.
and that's gotta be taken apart right?
And the bed will slide to one end.
.
Everything's got to be sorted out I think her pram and  her other desk is gonna have to go up in the
Mummy?
Yes.
Mummy, there's one thing I don't like though
What's that?
Gonna have  ages
Well I think I might be able to sort that out a lot of it will be underneath your
You know where 
well some of 
Yeah.
it will covered up in any case.
Yeah.
It's alright, I'm just  going up one  up here.
No.
That place where your wardrobe is
Yeah.
erm  will be covered up by your bed
Yeah.
and the place where two of th 
It's not my wardrobe so much, it's my bed  my bed 
Yeah, but 
is at one end
Well I've  heard of a tip  whether it works or not I don't know  so we'll try it and see  that's all 
Alright, what's that 
we can do  she put an ice cube on the  splodge  let it melt and when it drys out the carpet comes up again but I don't know if it'll work but it can't do any harm, can it?
No, just might be quite a bit wet.
Be a  daughter.
Oh god.
.
.
What's that?
This thing 
The 
that you we're playing with this morning and you didn't put it in properly.
Yeah,and rubbing it all down the window with my cardi.
Yeah.
I've spoken, don't do that any more!
Squeak.
Don't do that any more.
Can't wait to get this bedroom sorted out   Do think I could have my desk ?
I think so there's not much point in  keeping it in it's box is there
No, it's gonna put to good use 
What do you think?
Tony?
Yeah, okay but we'll have to do it when we've got time
Don't
and that might be  shortly before Christmas anyway.
Okay?
Okay.
It's only another three, four weeks to Christmas now in any case.
You might have to wait until we're act 
She's been a bit sick.
Oh  you might have to fit  you might have to fix  you might have to wait until we've got  time off over Christmas before we do it, anyway.
Yeah.
Cos we've only got Sundays  and this Sunday
I tell you what I'd love now 
we're gonna be clearing out those, thank you  the rest 
Dad.
of your  bedroom  Sunday after probably Grandma will be coming up
Yeah  Daddy?
Yeah.
What I want to do  up our steps on the twentieth of December
Yeah.
I want to come home I want to go up to my bedroom and get on with 
Well you'll have your bedroom will be totally different, it will be 
I know.
Yeah.
Brilliant.
much more grown up.
My desk will be there and my dungarees will be there.
I think though, your lamp you're gonna have to wait for your lamp because that's  but you can have your desk
Yeah.
and we'll Grandma about the chair, but I can't see her saying no
No.
Mm.
cos Grandma buying you you're chair isn't she.
Yeah, I know but I  can't really do  can I  I have to get the stool from downstairs.
Yeah.
Mm.
I think Grandma will agree.
No, she won't.
Oh I didn't ask your Mum if she wanted any  sweet and sour  is he stopping, going?
Ha, ha.
Stopping.
Yeah.
I must pump up these tyres 
Oh.
Well I'll have to do it over the weekend.
Yeah and the car needs a wash as well.
Right.
Look at that man sitting there .
Yeah.
Sit back.
There's Dad.
Oh there's Grampy.
Erm I'll stop this a minute.
Tony's wired for action .
Oh yeah  
It's got a little microphone out there  you alright you got the bags.
Yeah.
Right.
They're gonna be thinking  Nanny come on take it down.
Oh do I do I take our.
Yeah, Yeah you take 
take our er friend in there.
Oh it'll be alright, yeah.
.
We what?
Have you got the letter  the .
Oh  yeah ah I 
Daddy?
haven't got the letter it's in the car.
Daddy  they're gonna be saying Anneka Rice?
Where's her film crew?
Imagine saying that 
I don't think Daddy's got the legs 
I don't think, I don't think I'm quite that shape.
No .
Erm
I don't think Daddy's got the energy to  to to run all round Tesco's either.
Oh I don't know  Yeah.
Asking them to donate.
Yeah.
On  I had a half day on Wednesday
Yeah.
took my driving test
Did you?
And I 
Ah.
failed.
You know the result.
Yeah  ah  what a shame.
Otherwise I'd have been driving tonight
Yeah?
Ah  on much?
Erm  but er  no not a lot, not a lot
Oh.
erm use of erm  use of clutch of and gears was a bit needed some more work
Yeah.
I er ended up  I I coasted round a corner which is something you shouldn't do
Aha.
Erm  and I sli I yo pulled me up to one corner and I know it's really nasty
Yeah.
Erm so I slowed right down  and then was criticized cos I over sl cos I slowed down too much.
Ah.
I knew it was a really tight corner and so I slowed right down and was criticized for it, ha.
I think you might like more what's round the other side.
Mm.
Are you gonna get one with some little tassels on then Dad?
I don't know.
Cos you're best ones are like that aren't they?
Yeah.
What a   ooh.
Ooh  ooh.
Mummy  Mum .
Leave  yes.
Thank you.
Comfy.
Look.
Mm  that's a nine  feel the inside of that
Ooh
It'll be ideal for work
and the sole goes right up over there so you're not 
Mm 
gonna lose a bit off the front.
What is it  what's it made of?
Leather  I can see that
Is it?
Leather upper manmade lining and sole.
Oh that's okay  How much are they?
Seventeen ninety nine
Mm 
Better than the .
That's not bad  what are those?cheaper .
Look it's not the cheap that you're looking for.
Don't like them
No, neither do I.
to be quite honest.
Let's looking you're looking for comfortable shoes aren't you?
They're smart, they're a bit I don't like those  they go slippy slidey all over the place with those  but these are nice.
It's a shame they don't do the grey ones in black cos they looked comfortable as well.
Those?
Yeah  they do
Sorry?
Yeah they look  they do look comfortable but
Sorry.
I mean I don't have to wear black shoes but  they do suit
I think I've put my foot in it don't you?
.
Why's that?
Mm?
When I said oh gosh  personally.
Mm.
I mean he doesn't know the  
Mm.
he's only had them 
No.
for a few months.
That's right.
Stupid.
Yep  I agree  erm  I'd better try them on hadn't I?
Try them on, yeah.
I hate this  
Erm
I'll hold on to you dear.
I do need a new pair of shoes.
You desperately need a new pair of shoes.
Certainly  oop er  ooh
Do they feel good?
That's a nine  have they got
A ten?
a ten
I could ask the girl to see for you.
I'm not  it's just that my fe ah but they're not laced up are they?
Ah now that's better  only it felt as if my
and they will give a bit 
Yeah.
but they're leather.
Yeah, they're quite soft anyway  it just felt as if they were sort of my toes were sort of jammed up against the end  but 
How do they feel now?
Ah  I mean they will soften anyway and they are comfortable  it's just that the sides are a bit rigid at the moment but then they're bound to be  and they will give.
Yeah  well tha that's the nice thing about having leather shoes
Yeah.
if you sort of go to fit you sl 
Yeah.
slightly  I mean if they're uncomfortable don't have them.
No they're not uncomfortable  ah  get the other shoe off  oop  mm  just  there 
Do the lace up a little bit more
they're rather narrow  just there  no  I'm sorry they're too narrow  they're really st tight across there.
Well that's no good then is it?
I my my little toe is 
are comfortable.
They are yeah.
Do you like your best shoes?but those look wider across the toes.
No, no those are too narrow  I'm getting fussy in my old age perhaps but 
No it's not fussy i i if they're not comfortable you're gonna have problems with your feet
Mm.
and that's silly.
Oh no those are fine.
Those ones?
Those are really fine  apart from the fact that it's the wrong foot  ha.
Oh hang on  no that's two  they're it's two right foot
What size was it again?
Nine.
What are those  eight?nine  is that the other one.
Yeah  yeah those are fine  those were comfortable
Were they slippy when you walked  have a little walk   I liked them with laces.
Mm  no they're they're fine  and they they would be nice for sort of best shoes wouldn't they?
Well you could have a look at your best ones and decide which ones you want to keep for best.
Mm  yeah  how much are they.?
I don't know, it doesn't matter.
Yes it does.
There's no price on them so it doesn't matter  there isn't a price on any of them so  oh we'll 
Seventeen ninety nine  that's okay then  if it's alright with you it's alright with me.
Yeah.
I know I'll end up with two pairs of shoes similar but
Well it's up to you if you want them to s shall I see if I can find a girl  and you might try a size ten in the other ones  would you like me 
No  I'll tell you why  it's not the fact that they  they fit but they're too narrow  if 
Oh.
I went for a size ten  it would be too big do you see what I mean  whereas those fit  okay?
Yep.
Oh well  it's gonna be another forty five minutes   I must admit I have sympathy for the people who are going to listen to this.
Yeah so have I, it must be boring.
Must be really boring.
To actually go through it a bit at a time  I mean the majority of it is fine 
Mm   was quite a hard  hard part of the sample to find 
Do you know what 
The  unemployed person within  between thirty five and forty five
Yeah.
is quite hard to find one around our estate .
.
A lot of the people are over employed.
One cabbage  give your pet rabbit for the 
His Dad's foot, he's still limping isn't he?
Yeah, he's not as bad though  a lot better 
Mm.
yeah  it's a lot better.
Cos I noticed when we were there and it just collapsed he couldn't walk a lot.
No, no it's a lot better  than what it was  he went to the doctor and the doctor said .
Really?
Yes  She went up  and I    it's smaller  it's  it's soft
Oh stupid you've got 
and then 
no hard skin there 
no  he thinks doctors have got .
Oh  wait a minute the doctor shouldn't have seen it then should he?
Gotta a get any damsons today?
Gotta get any apples today?
No I've  we've got some at home  I got some  erm
Oh yes.
I got two big plastic
Oh  that's a lot.
Daddy?
Mm.
So you said she started to grow sesame herbs.
Yeah.
What you want to do is  and said probably again nine months after
Yeah.
then I could start  and you don't get any  
Oh great  how many could he do?
Don't start Chris!
Yeah.
Don't start!
yeah.
and send it to 
That's great.
so  with a bit of luck we won't have to go 
Mm.
any more.
Yeah  Dot was telling me how erm  they had somebody  with th erm  similar problem but more pronounced
Yeah.
and they actually failed  there erm  her riding test because they weren't sitting straight on the horse.
Yeah  yeah.
And the reason why they weren't sitting straight is because one shoulder was higher than the other.
Ah yeah.
One of my shoulders  is like higher than the other.
No.
No.
Your lucky didn't they say yours were very narrow  never mind you can go along and enter again.
Yeah.
Grandma?come here  
Ha ha.
I'll make 
If you wanna  me to turn it off at anytime  just say.
I just wonder how it's gonna come out  with all the background noise, I wonder whether 
Mm.
it's gonna be  worth 
Well 
them having.
yeah
That's all.
it's not my problem I'm afraid.
No  well it's not but  trying to say
Yeah.
Do we need any bin liners?
I bought some  last week didn't I Chris?
Have the bin liners  we got enough black bags  yes we've got 
We've got enough black bags.
yeah cos I over
Okay.
What you doing 
No.
What do you think?
.
She's being a vandal.
Cut all this that's going on tape.
.
Oh yes   a vandal.
Oh look they've got a teddy bear.
She's got all her .
Has she?
Yep.
Yep  first of December  Sunday  start opening those things and eating those sweets.
You don't eat them tha 
Oh no.
that's just a pretty one.
That's right what was I thinking of.
I mean she doesn't  she don't get through a lot of chocolates does she?
No.
Can you reach me three of those small tins  at the top  the processed ones.
Yeah.
Thank you very much I won't let you put it in your trolley.
Ha ha.
Do we want any of those for Christine?
What?
She doesn't likes the processed ones she likes the  ones.
Oh have they got any  yeah.
Did you get some sweetcorn?right  We got some brussels sprouts
Brussels  yeah.
I thought it might be nice to put her back on her vitamin tablets actually  it's just a vitamin C haliborange one.
Christmas streamers.
Go alright starting to get fed up you know.
Oh sorry!
You would have been proud of my driving test examiner.
Yeah.
Is it that size?
Yeah.
Shall I see if I can get you some ?
Yeah please Jack cos er  I er that's been enough for me to open for myself  and the big one's too big.
He turned round to me and he said  erm  right then  I'll take you t would you take me to your vehicle  erm  and may I call you Anthony?
Oh  very nice.
So I said  yes okay.
No, I don't like it.
I nearly said no I don't like it call me Tony 
Call me Tony.
It's a wonder you didn't.
oh  it made  it made a nice change.
Yeah.
No you do it when you're telling me off.
Yeah.
Sorry?
I say Mum calls me Anthony when she's telling me off.
Who?
Mum.
Yeah.
You think oops I've done something wrong.
a packet of cereal there.
.
No  it's bad for you   won't be half busy to come out the Sunday before Christmas won't it?
Mm  bi 
I was just thinking that way as well.
Yeah.
Mm.
Mm.
Come on Dad let's go.
I like to keep one of those just in case they er  .
Round here with the toys.
Grandma,.
Ha, Ha, Ha.
No Vicky I meant.
I thought you said where's Christine?
No Vicky.
Oh.
I can't see her.
No  I can't yet.
She's probably way up the other end.
Aha  leave the poor girl alone to her work.
Christine.
Yes.
Oh little babies.
Oh dear.
It's good actually cos it's not obvious 
I haven't g I haven't got any other tapes.
Oh well wait until that's finished it's that's it then
That's it then for today.
till tomorrow.
Yeah.
Mum!
Thank you.
Well spotted.
How much are they?
Three nineteen.
Right okay.
Oh yes  loves them doesn't he.
urgh!
Yeah.
They might look very attractive
Mm.
Nice gooey cake .
We shouldn't should we?
No  which one do you want then .
No  okay.
Those are nice.
What, those or those?
This.
Okay.
They're all nice actually aren't they?
Is that alright, yeah.
kitchen cupboard let's do it properly.
Okay.
Do you only want sweet 
That's a new one  Hovis White.
Hovis White  mm.
Don't particularly want any more 
Ah  sorry  erm
If I pull that out.
Okay.
Don't .
Ha?
Get
Ooh  nearly ran Mum over.
Oh remember those Brownies?
Oh  oh they were really sickly rich, weren't they and 
Yep.
Nice though but
Mhm
too much though.
A bit too much really.
We need some more meat for Ben from the pet shop.
Oh look!
Yeah they had those in last week.
Six.
Six.
I think those are one twenty nine
and what are those ten 
There's two forty four  no two forty four, twenty four 
Yeah, two fo 
two forty it would have been
Two forty  yeah.
So it's cheaper to buy those   
Yeah.
It's all different varieties, one, two, three  six  different varieties.
six  different varieties yeah.
Oh he'll like that  it's got his tripe 
Oh Yuk!
He likes it no matter what you pu although he didn't like that other stuff we bought did he?
No  no  no.
And he likes tripe.
Yeah.
Yeah  he likes that make but  Urgh!the cat litters spilt.
Urgh!
What did you say?
I said shall I get him some more chews?
How many has he got do you know?
About half a box  at home    oh I will  
No he's got  mm 
that er
he's got enough to keep him going for now.
Yeah  potatoes including maggots!
really good   sorry.
Vegetarian potatoes ha ha.
Sorry?
Vegetarian potatoes.
Yeah  what?
Have you switched off yet?
No  do want me okay.
No I just wondered  oh it has
No.
Turn round  where's the little light then?
Oh round there  just wondered whether you wanted to keep a bit of tape for Vicky.
Oh  Is she here?
I don't know I haven't seen her yet  probably  I want to get some minced beef  got some lamb  have  little erm  
Mm.
but we're being good.
Are we?
Oh that's just once a week   
Yeah okay  no.
Some 
Yeah.
In fact I do like these  I think I'll get one 
Yeah.
to put in the fridge  how are your  nearly there?
it's surprising how that much went by isn't it?
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
What?
What was funny it made a loud noise but it hurt my ankle as well.
What?
That.
Oh  sorry I didn't notice that.
It hurt me there  yeah it hurt me.
I was trying to listen to what Grandma was saying.
I can't say anything now
It's too late you're already recording.
That's not fair.
Do you mind?
You just can't think of anything to say now can you .
I've gone bright red
but you can't see that.
Right  good.
He put it on and walked round with it for about ten minutes before we had the nerve to  say anything to him .
Nobody would talk to me.
I can't say I blame them.
No.
No  What's it for anyway, come on.
It's it is a nationwide survey on spoken English  erm there's a somebody approached me today  and said would I carry a tape around for a week and record people talking.
It's actually for a spoken
Oh dear, and er  I got new pair of sheets, because they were erm  they were the ones I had .
So I've got that type  pair of sheets.
.
Erm quite like these actually, there slip on's and, and they've got and they got erm studs 
Mm.
down there and  decoration and have on .
I keep those best and where these then, these used to be my best shoes,.
.
Yeah.
Is that .
I thought you might like to .
Mm, yeah, thinking.
.
.
.
, yeah it's come in handy to put those things right at the beginning, that's the first thing you look at, you do it on purpose.
.
Yeah.
Did erm, have you seen this  and it's for when you eh, eh change your week ending .
Yeah, I think so.
And what you do, is you, say the whole week ending in ,, your week ending day is Tuesday, so you do that, the new week ending day, so the Wednesday's got to be four.
That's Wales, is it North Wales?
Yeah.
.
Yeah, how long did it take you to get up?
I went up .
Not that, yeah.
.
Yeah, yeah, yeah it must be because it's erm, is it two hundred miles or not quite?
I don't know .
Ah yeah, yeah, so what are the roads like is it  any roads or
Some of them are..
No.
.
Yeah.
.
Mm.
Is it quite hilly er, quite twisty or what .
It varies quite a lot.
With erm  in the dark it .
Mm.
.
.
And guess what they did 
Yeah.
And that .
Mm, mm, yeah, yeah,.
But it was such a lovely .
Yeah.
.
The this is better technical jargon that suppose to help
Right .
,the recovery of that circular four, appendix one of the planning resources handbook so, all of the items for which the E S can recover the VAT and that the invoices payable, the re-coverall VAT for once are part of the resource allocation and any short fall can seriously effect the E S budget.
It's  that in the period April ninety one to September ninety one there has been under recovery of VAT of nearly half a million pounds, will wait until they recover it  of which two er twenty six thousand is the true result of the South West Region of twenty six thousand pounds just over twenty one and a half thousand pounds related to job club fees, with all staff responsible for organising rosters even sure they are around the content of appendix one, section four, and that that  correctly identified in cages, Margaret Cornwall.
Write in the Margaret all systems computer  so we can all read it.
.
Well I, I got to get up and walk over and find it .
.
Because I do not hold  the appropriate resource in hand, whatever she's got, very helpful isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, wonderful.
That's all of interest in this I .
oh, you know it's amazing when you erm  a reference always refers to something else, you gotta go and get that
Yes, I think  we ought to do something about it Tony,a message.
Ah look at this, Client Service  Handbook, that's in this  over Section F.
It says F is for literacy problems, debts problems and drug alcohol problems as well as.
Try telling that to my three year old see what .
.
It's  fire engine.
.
I didn't .
Where am I, here we are, New Employer, you have to get a copy of that .
Some of these official inspections are awful aren't they?
Well, there, there going to  understand what they, what they've written about as well as .
yeah.
Oh here, here is a fine example  anything with  in it has got to be doubtful.
, yes .
Goodness gracious me, here we go.
Right.
Th this is a crunchy, sort off pot putting anyone within the employment service can request change to .
E G a change to a cost centre or a .
Changes are to be carefully considered before there  because due to the complexity and the importance of those  even minor changes, cause unexpected problems.
That can't mean nothing.
I suppose,tell me what I shall consider
No.
How I shall consider it.
Why I should want to change anything, just nothing..
Here gigantic  gi , we use to have a word of the day when erm Ian was here, use to put word of the day up on the board
Mm, mm.
What we do is take the, the day of the week and the, the calendar date, it might be the  say it was the fourth day of the week Thursday
Yeah.
And it was July, it's got to .
It was the third day in July, page four, seven, three and then I had to find a word that I'd never heard off before and put it up on the board.
.
Like gromwell,..
.
And then people would put up there suggestions of what a gromwell was  .
.
It was good fun, we won't, I won't re-institute that one.
Yeah that's good.
Ginormous, where are we, ginormous, erm, no it's not in here and er G Y or J I or J Y so no it doesn't  .
No , but eh, another word that was  I've heard used, and it was, actually it was quite annoying because the chap used it, used it wrongly, but I didn't know that he'd used it wrongly at the time.
Mm, mm.
What  .
It was paradigm.
Paradigm?
Yes.
Yeah, paradigm that, that's a bit like a paradox but completely different
.
What, what is it  as a paradigm .
You, you, you can't, yeah , you said you can't use er money as a paradigm for energy.
Ah.
And what he really meant to say was, you can't use money as a er a  as a sort of parallel to energy, but paradigm doesn't mean parallel, it means something, something different.
It does, doesn't it?
Yeah.
I mean it's not  they way you expect it either, yeah, paradigm means example of pattern of, reflection of noun, hence parasite, big .
.
No, I don't think I believe  at all.
No, but, he was using it as, as a fancy word for parallel and he wasn't using it properly.
The trouble is I didn't know because I've never heard the word before.
So, you could off asked him, what's he mean by the word paradigm.
Yeah.
Because I've never used that word before, he'll say something completely pathetic.
.
At least you'll know what he meant by it.
.
In years to come now they'll life it out and say oh look at it.
I think it's how they used to speak in the twentieth century.
That's right, in the year nineteen ninety one or whatever, no I thought it was quite, quite good.
Yeah.
Bit of erm  and it's all anonymous and everything so
Oh you've got  tape, you've got another one?
How did you get two?
There's some more at college, I haven't got one yet.
Oh alright then.
somebody else's,got mine .
As long as you haven't got one yet, that's alright  I'll be back, I'm just going out to the bank.
Alright.
Family relations in Birkwood that would be an eye opener for her.
What?
I'll take it home this weekend and record family relations in Birkwood, that'll be an eye opener because like if I read the handicap for him, he talks absolute gobbledegook, that'll be interesting.
.
.
.
This is the average family, the nuclear family.
.
My dad's never called anybody by their proper names so that's what's confusion as well.
What's your nickname love?
Nobby.
Nobby.
.
What do you get called Nobby for?
Nobby Stiles, the little  with no teeth.
Oh I know , yeah.
Don't ask me why, because he's, because he's ugly.
Huh.
Walter, after Walter  because he thinks he looks like Walter 
.
Huh.
.
I think I'll  my desk.
I  walking round the supermarket erm yeah last night
Did you Yeah.
and that's what  and I completely  the checkout girl because I, I know her quite well, we always have to guess the same one, we have a bit of a laugh and I said do you want to be erm part of a national survey on s this English er on spoken English and she said oh, alright, so I said there you are your on
.
and she said what, pardon, erm, erm what have I got to say .
Yeah.
.
It's much better if you just switch it on and forget about it.
Yeah, forget about it.
Yeah, that's, that's what I did at, at home.
The only thing is then you've got to remember if you, if you have a row or something, to go back and wipe, wipe that bit off .
It's obvious with this training thing takes part you know, I've got to move in to the grotty old school room in  so .
Oh.
It should've been Concorde.
.
Concorde?
By  rights you know, would you mind moving into Concorde so  can have Brunel, I mean I've got I'm, I'd like to say yes I'll do my move into Concorde  broom cupboard
.
But, eh,my  not suppose to give up .
Yeah 
Are they stickers over there?
Erm, no the only stickers I've got, they've got the number written on.
Oh, have they got any sixes on?
Erm
I need some stickers.
Oh, now, somebody had a roll of blank ones,but erm, wonder where they've gone too.
Ah Jack's back now we can't nick our money out of her handbag.
.
.
Oh let me  .
.
I think Tony's hogging them all to himself.
No, I'm not .
oh, here they are, here they are.
Ah, right.
.
.
Erm,how did you find the script up here, it was alright was it?.
Yeah, not too bad, yeah.
No, I know some of it needs re-writing again.
Yeah, the first .
Yeah.
So what I need, because what I tell you to do you see, is in case there's somebody who fix it up and doesn't know, it's all there, but, you know,
.
too much , yeah, right I'll
Did you .
Yeah, what I mean I want some time off to be able to re-write properly.
.
Yeah.
Get a smaller strip like that .
Yeah.
.
So  could go back to if they wanted too .
Yeah, you need too  .
Yeah, that  .
That, that makes it easier to work with .
Yeah .
.
Yeah, yeah , no that's a good idea.
.
Yeah, yeah, ok.
.
I've got a few prep days coming up actually.
.
known by a number now.
number six for a number one.
I don't know if somebody's trying to tell me something, but they've made me number thirteen.
.
Stuck to the desk so I can't move it.
I've got to be careful off is use nine because sixty nine tend to go together don't they ?
Oh you are, are you ?
. Nine .
.
.
I know.
I'm going to run a marathon on Wednesday I'm worried about that, two, two days of packing, I've got funny .
Yeah, yeah .
I must admit, I think it had been better if they'd moved it all over the weekend and then just put it straight again on the Monday, that would be .
I'm, I'm going to find a quiet room because I've got to do some .
.
I've got first of all  start vacancy taking because eh
Yeah.
I haven't done that before.
Well I was thinking there aren't .
Yeah.
desert a sinking ship.
..
We'd miss you wouldn't we Tony?
Mm.
We'd miss Jackie.
Huh, huh.
Of course we will..
Oh right,there isn't any more but apparently it's within walking distance, so what we were doing we was all walk over there together in the lunch time so, that's alright really lunch time  but it's erm
.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mo Monte Perrie is it?..
I don't know that posh town at all me..
Thank you very much, I'll er send that on ..
Sure ..
The one she actually cancelled was the one to her family because I'd already cancelled the group one.
Oh dear, dear..
Yeah,I saw that in John Lewis, the toy department, she said you forgot to cancel Jameson's.
Oh no I didn't I said I  I did I was bit embarrassed about doing it because I've already changed it twice, he said well he rang me again I said oh he must of got his records wrong.
Hang on what date is it for?
It's the twenty third, I said that's on Saturday, he said oh we have got these dates wrong now, I said er what you've cancelled is my personal booking but they ask for a work number you see.
Yeah, oh dear.
Because  holiday he ask me
book .
yeah, he, he said oh I can just about fit you in, I said oh that's good because otherwise er I said to my friend that will be coming back to her house instead.
.
No, poor thing, she  she .
.
oh dear.
I'm not going to be around on Monday.
Aren't you?
Why where are you?
I'm going to be a I V P.
Oh, that's a good excuse.
Yeah, that's a good one in't it?
. Not much argument of that though.
No.
I don't think you'd get many volunteers to join you either to be honest.
No  .
.
I think moving's  better than a week of I V P.
Well from my point of view it is, it might not be from yours.
.
That's ok, I'm not eh, I'm not too uncomfortable with that one.
Your alright because there blank, because there blank pieces of paper aren't they, they don't know anything.
Mm, yeah, sometimes.
Yeah.
Sometimes they can
Bet you get a few .
.
..
Yeah  Haven't you gone yet?
Oh I sort of went home and sort of crashed out in, it's a day of communication on  on your own it's quiet tiring,.
Huh,and scratch it.
.
Oh it's like that is it?
.
Oh Sally had a packet curry each it was very appetizing.
.
Do you ever get, oh I never do that do you?
Yeah.
What's for tea -get your own.
.
I was really, really tired, I was dead tired and , but  I always make the tea.
Yeah .
Did ya?
really, really straight forward.
Yeah, like your  .
somebody sit down   .
Yeah .
Don't you?
Start make the tea  .
Yeah .
And then I usually have to do the washing up as well.
It's there own fought for not being , for not being a bit more assertive I s'pose, but.
Right.
That's what you get in our house.
You do that at breakfast and then you .
Oh that's nice, yeah .
Really, have a good weekend.
Yeah, same too you.
Thank you.
.
Bye.
Bye, bye.
Think you can afford these chips then Tony?
What?
.
Oh, don't ask me, we normally get tea together.
Mm.
I get Christine to  .
Oh,,, bye.
can do you now or  yeah, eh no, yes that's right so
.
Alright Tony?
Yes thanks Den.
and we can take them down to the Christmas school fare.
Why?
And Mandy and Amanda?
And Amanda, I'll have to .
.
Yes there  .
In here .
And  .
, until, until, until nine o'clock possibly I think  is going to end.
I think that's too late
Oh.
nine, nine o'clock.
You let me stay last year.
Yeah, but you were at the school last year, you had things to do.
I'm gonna have things to do to 
Your only going to .
I'm gonna have two things as well, I'm going  and buy stuff and  and the pizza.
Well alright, I don't, I don't mind, but 
Nine o'clock right, thank you, bye..
Alright Den?
Yes, and you?
Yes, fine thanks, oh .
.
What's going on here then?
.
Oh..
Oh what is this .
Yeah.
Er Gary,do you mind .
alright, alright, quite everybody, quite, right, who want's to go first?
Me, I will Debbie
Ah thanks.
Piece of cake?.
Mummy.
Christine, I'm not coming in till nine o'clock, perhaps half past eight, half past eight,I will pick you up as well.
What they gonna have at this fair then?
Oh well, it's like a stall you get erm  but I haven't got a ticket, Becky said you have to pay about ten P to get in.
.
Oh.
But I do .
.
And then they have stalls and things, but you'll need money to spend there won't you?
Yeah.
Dad
You'll have to take some money with you.
Dad
Mm, mm.
I like your shirt and I like your tie and I like your watch and I like your shoes.
Can I have some money?
I would like you to let, I would like you to let me go down to the fair.
No.
.
Can I have some money?
Some money ?
Please yeah please, please.
Cor I don't know.
Go on, you don't want me to beg do you?
Have you had  have you had pocket money yet?
What's this  or something  .
Er no.
Oh, we can let you have the pocket money.
Yeah, two pounds.
.
Ah, but you might off  can't remember whether we  bought anything yesterday out of your pocket money.
Huh?
Did we buy that, anything yesterday, yeah, bought some little babies didn't you?
Oh, well that the money that I found out my pocket and the payment granny gave me.
Oh right.
I found one pound ten P in my pocket
Mm, mm.
and I'm gonna give you a .
Den I told mum about your dad last night with  .
Oh yeah ..
Christine you'll have to get your feet down me love I want to sit down..
Shall I shuffle along, do you want to sit on the end?
No, I don't mind where I sit as long as I got a seat, ha, ha.
Thank you mummy .
.
Yeah.
Oh lot's of people going then?
.
That, we'll pick you up at half past eight, not nine o'clock, that's a bit too late.
The head .
Will you have enough to do  down there for that length of time Christine?
Pardon.
Will you have enough to do for that length of time.
They got erm
Did you take your bottle of milk in this morning before you went ?
it's stopped raining and  it's not raining or anything.
Well there weren't any, didn't have any.
No it's not raining.
Well you have it might  .
There be stalls outside if it's not raining , if it rains then they have them indoors.
Did you take our milk in this morning?
I can't remember.
Well there's two lots there 
Crates there , but no milk.
There's two in, in your, in your, in your, your er a fridge, and I thought it might .
I normally bring that .
So I picked up the thing with an empty bottle and put it in the, on the kitchen.
I normally bring the crate in.
Well it was marked for one and there was no milk, there was no er, there was an empty bottle in the thing, but no milk, as long as he don't charge you for  .
What they telling her off for?
Cos they've been worried with the press in the hospital .
Dad phoned me up twice from your house this morning and couldn't get no answer here, he said, I was sat here so I can here the phone go, anyway he went around again later on, tried it, and it was alright then.
Don't what it was.
Weren't that funny?
Also in dad's last night said sat up watching the gold fish and he said oh I'll, I'll give you, I'll give you a tank and I'll get some fish on Sunday.
So what did she sa did you say?
Well she didn't think he was serious,he was, so were gonna have to phone up tonight and say look, no fish.
Mm.
Oh well not, you can't get them to fit?
No I can't, I can get a size eleven.
Mm, mm .
But I've got a very high in-step you see..
Oh, so they don't fit across the front.
Is that  you bought last night?
No.
Similar to that though in it?
Yeah.
Well when I finally chuck out these brown ones what I wear every day.
Well you've got another pair of brown ones upstairs you could wear as well, you've got a new pair of brown ones upstairs
I know.
and you've got a pair of black shoes ain't you?
Yeah.
Got any others?
No, so I was gonna say, I, I, go  up to the  shop up Kingswood see if they had any cheap up there.
No, it'll take a while
Yeah .
it'll come suddenly.
What all you need know is a polishing off.
Mm.
You know, you, it's, that's what it is it's getting the flow 
Yeah.
and that takes the one off
Erm, but, he sorted something out for me, I, I said, cos of course now
Carry on drying your hair can you?
You've got it all  .
Yes of course, you carry on drying your hair.
erm, so what happens now, is that er  I'm coming off the er, coming off the clutches as  before the corner
Yeah.
and if it's a tight one, and you're going round it in first, really tight one, then what you need to be doing really is slipping the clutch 
Yeah.
if it's really tight, slipping the clutch in first  and what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to control it on the accelerator, you can't do it.
You'll be able to, but you can't at the moment.
Mm.
And that 
And it's much easier to try and control it on the clutch.
Yeah.
So he s , I said to him is it alright, says am I in danger of coasting if I've got my foot on the  if, if I'm taking the corner in first and  I'm slipping and  I got the clutch, I'm using the engine but I've, not much
Yeah.
and he said oh no that's not coasting.
No.
It's only if you've got the clutch right in.
Yeah.
But, erm,in second my foot should be flat on the floor.
He took me round that blooming Argyle Road three times.
Oh, the horrible corner.
Yeah, cos I told that was one, I said that's, that's the one I, I over slowed on my test.
Yeah.
And he's told me that it's first gear, right.
Yeah.
So what I was doing I was coming into it, I was coming in too fast for the gear, not too fast for the corner, but too fast for the gear.
Yeah.
Shoving it in, shoving it into first, bring the clutch up quickly and the car goes weer and virtually stops 
Yeah , yeah, yeah .
so it wasn't the fact I was trying to lose too much speed, it was that I changed into first and didn't have
Enough revs on the engine to keep it going 
enough revs on the engine , he'd be going and when I lift, raised the clutch, whereas if I had brought the clutch up part way 
The car would of slowly slowed down to be at the speed that the engine 
Yeah .
was going on, yeah  yeah.
Well as I actually had to going round the corner, to get myself round the corner, I had to come off the brake and onto the accelerator
Yeah.
to actually get myself round the corner.
Yeah.
Yes, because you see,, I don't remember, I, I think I take that one in second you see.
Mm.
But,
I took it, I, he said well try it and we went round it in first and I went and it went rrah 
Yeah.
and, and, so erm, we  er, then I came round and I did it in second, he said there you went too wide there
Yeah.
you came close to the white line.
Yeah.
Yes, course there's always a car parked on the corner isn't it?.
There's always a car parked on the corner 
.
I must admit I'd always cheat at that corner, when I'm coming up to it, I don't do it suddenly
Mm.
I'm then coming up to it, I move fractionally out into the road
yeah.
then you've got more room to get round  If you sit glued to the pavement it's a hell of a job to get round
Mm.
whereas if your fractionally out further into the road it's easier to, got slightly different 
I didn't have that excuse because there's a car parked before the turning
oh, so you've had to get out 
I had to be out wide and then turn in 
yeah.
and there's a car on the opposite side of the road as you turn in  aha, so you go outside work and then round and ha, ha, oh 
You'll get it.
But, that slipping the clutch is blimey useful.
It is.
I beginning to find how useful, cos I can keep the revs going 
Yeah.
When, when I'm not sure what's happening, and people are sort of weaving about and things like that, you can use that and you can just tick over and your ready to move if you need to and you can stop quite quickly if you need to as well.
Yeah, yeah, I see.
I mean, we've, I've, there was a  situation  these are the roads he's taking me around now, he had me reverse round the corner which was practically blind, couldn't see what was round the corner, so I was edging round, and it was on a hill so I had to do it, every time I stopped I had to put the handbrake on so I didn't roll
Yeah.
And  edging round the corner, checking all ways, there was a parked car, there's a van parked the opposite side of the road so anything turning in had to come over into my, the path of me
Yeah.
and a, coming out of that there were some cars parked, some other cars trying to drive through, I was coming out trying to turn right, there was another car waiting to turn left, and he couldn't come in cos I was coming out.
Yeah.
So I had to drive out past him, pull over to the other side of the road as much as possible to let him come through and the other cars come through, then I could  come .
Yeah.
And doing that, to have the clutch sort of half way up in first you just sort of, you just 
you need help  ,
sort of kick on  and it's quite nice and you've got it all under control and if you get a chance to go you can and if you've got to stop it's no problem.
yeah 
And then I got myself in a knot  cos there was a car coming up the road
Yeah
between a lot of parked cars and there was a, I was coming down the road and all I needed to do was to actually stop where I was  cos there was enough room on his side of the road for him to come past the parked car and round me
Yeah.
I sort off, parked car there and I came up and he had room to do that
Yeah.
and what I did was, there was a gap here, and I drove into the gap nose first, and I did do a hell of a lot of steering to get myself out
Yeah, but  that means that they still do occasionally
Yeah.
I mean, that, very, very occasionally you'll do something and you'll think, erm why didn't I do that  you think that's stupid, you know ,
and you think oh.
yeah .
There's no need, no need to do that he said.
No, occasionally I'll do something like that mind you .
There's plenty of room, yeah there's plenty of room for him to get passed in.
Yeah  I was annoyed, up at Christine's school the other day, I was waiting for Anita, and there's driveways all along that road
Mm, mm.
so there's stops where you can park on those 
Yeah 
driveways, it was pouring down with rain one day so I was going up to meet her and we, I'd got up there, I've learnt now, I leave home  at quarter past three if it's raining
mm.
I go up to meet Anita, anyway you can get a parking space up there, so I've turned, drove up there  they say I haven't left as early, it was while I was learning 
Yeah.
when the erm, so it, a car parked across a drive  and a car, the car behind him which was in a space was going
Mm.
and it was in quite a big space, I could off got in behind him and then changed if I'd reversed in  but when I saw this other chap sat in his car and then he indicated he wanted to pull out, so I let him go
Mm.
Then I drove into his space  well then somebody else came and drove in behind me  and the car in front then was sort of, oh yeah, then somebody else came and reversed in in front of him, so the car in front it was across the drive was boxed in by this time, I didn't box him in I just 
No .
parked behind, but then somebody else came and parked in front of him, and he was there and sort, you could see him looking you know, he looked at the driveway and he looked, he was looking in his rear view mirror and then he turned round and looked like this, then he looked at the front, and he was thinking my god I can't get out of here, and all of a sudden a little car comes up the road stops, goes beep, beep on the horn, wanna get in the drive, this bloke went ha, ha, ha, ha  and he couldn't do anything  
.
So, so, he looked, he looked round at me, he looked at the  the other group waiting in front and he was, he flashed his lights at them so that, they realised what was going on by then, they moved forward a bit , I moved back a bit and he just had enough room he reversed right up close to me and then got out but he just had enough room to get out, and since then I won't park over the driveway up there, cos you can bet your life the one driveway along that road and you parked in front is the one that somebody wants to get into.
Ah .
Yeah.
Oh right, I'd better go actually.
Mother eh be er complaining.
Yeah, okay.
Where have you been, you said half past three.
Well it's twenty five to four, what does that .
It'll be twenty to by the time I get round there..
Better do this washing up hadn't I?
I can't 
I'd put 
believe it when he took the .
I put in for the eh, my driving test again.
Oh good.
Okay.
Good, good.
Sometime in the New Year now.
What date did you put on the form, not before
Well he's put a month from the last  test.
Mm.
Well you won't have it around Christmas, after between Christmas and the New year .
No , no.
It'll be erm, January time I suppose .
I, I said to him I, I don't want, I know I can't have a test soon, but I don't really want another one  that soon.
No  but now all that your doing is polishing your drive better off
Mm.
unfortunately that can be a very painful business 
Mm.
Depends
Yeah.
You might find it easy
Yeah.
easier.
What 
But.
we doing tomorrow?
Tomorrow well, trainee to wash and a hoover  
Mm.
This is yet, Tesco's open as well, we've lost our
Yeah.
little driving spaces now.
Yeah, okay.
Masterline's open,are open.
Yeah, so I can't
You can have a drive round actually, round by the Coca Cola factory there maybe somewhere
Mm.
you can go.
I think I, what, what I'm thinking is that this sort of  are there's er any, any driving would be good
Yes it would.
No matter what I do.
Yeah.
But checking this slipping the clutch in first.
Yeah.
Cos, when you try, if you try and control it on the accelerator it's very, it's really jerky
Yeah.
or it's very difficult to keep it smooth
Yeah .
I won't say it's really jerky, but it
I can do it, but I've been driving for two and a half years
Yeah, yeah 
and then it's 
I 
And I can only just do it
Yeah
It's very, I mean the foot control is very, very .
And it's so much easier to put some reeves on than use the clutch .
It is.
It is .
But then again, you've got to feel a bit careful there because it can misconstrued totally
Mm.
if, but I mean if your obviously doing it and you  more moving the clutch up and down
Mm.
then fair enough.
Mm.
You know?
He said something and I couldn't make sense of it
What did he say?
because he said  that  when I came into that corner I pulled in  I'd slowed too much  and then had to drive round, drive round the corner with my left foot flat on the floor  and I thought oh, shouldn't your left foot be flat on the floor when you corner and that's probably what he was getting at, as I could off been slipping the clutch.
Yeah  
But when he said it, I thought  oh I thought I had to have my left foot flat on the floor when I cornered, cos in second you have too.
Yeah.
In second it's cut and dry
Yeah.
You've got to have your foot flat on the floor before you corner.
That corner is an absolute horrible
Yeah I know.
it does, on the corner
Yeah
and that one you've got to drive it definitely than most corners
Yeah.
so you, you can't treat that as an ordinary left handed turn,
No.
it is very 
But if you can't cope with it.
You've got to be able to cope with it .
You've got to be able to cope with it.
Yeah.
But you've got to treat it as a special case
Yeah.
and you've got to 
No, I , I won't tell you how I was taught to do it because I was taught to do it very differently.
Mm.
I was taught to do it in first and use the accelerator.
Mm.
You know.
Yeah.
Mm  so, cos he said it'll help.
Help with your accelerator control .
With your accelerator control , yeah .
So it's diff of course there's  courses giving 
yeah ,
instructors different ways of teaching you.
yeah.
He said 
You , you need fine control on the clutch ,
Mm ,
but you also need it on the accelerator as well 
yeah.
and he said well, okay, with your reversing and everything else your getting the front control on the clutch
So yeah 
this will help you to do it on your 
do it on your accelerator  
accelerator.
whereas 
So,
I, I finding the control on the accelerator difficult
yeah
in first, erm, and I've got some fine control on the clutch and I can use that to deal with that particular corner.
Yeah.
Perhaps.
Yes.
That's just what he's saying.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Any rate.
Yeah.
See you later then.
Yeah..
I see you later than, oh where's the car keys I had them on the  .
There we are, I was hiding them with my hand.
Yeah, I know, do you want a cake or is it not too naughty?
Christine can you turn that volume down a bit, it's up too high.
. Yes you want to take it .
.
do your hair.
Bye.
Bye.
Where is it?
.
Oh yeah.
.
No, but it's near 
Where about's in  where about?
I don't know  it's not far away.
I wish I could go there .
It's landed.
Has it?
Yeah.
Do you know, do you know where it is?
Not really , anyway I'm gonna get started, ok.
Hello.
Hello.
There's a cauliflower and a bag of potatoes left, ok .
Ok, I'll go and get them.
It's alright, I'll go and get them.
Ok..
Oh.
I read the instruction  again about this thing.
Yeah.
It actually says record all your conversations.
Oh, are you?
I don't know how that all worked with work, because erm, they may not want me too.
Well, you can't do it if they, if they don't want you to
So er, that's right, I'll check 
You can do what you can do 
I'll check it out with the manager.
Yeah  see what he means?
Yeah.
I'm gonna take mum out on Monday
Yeah.
And were gonna get some more Christmas stuff on 
Mm, mm.
and a few drinks.
Ah, that sounds ok .
And chocolate, you know what I mean?
Your gonna take the stamps?
Yeah.
Right.
Sorry I've been a while, I went into mum's to take her shopping in and Uncle Philip was there.
That's alright .
Oh right.
And having, seeing as we see him so rarely now
Mm.
I ah, look, don't say anything to Christine .
Ok.
and I bought those, because you know Jane came up?
Yeah.
and she ate two of the vegetable ones 
Mm, mm .
well there's two left in there and that's not enough for you and I
Right.
so I thought we could have two, one of those each and five fingers.
Yeah, ok.
So .
You know I dug the information out again, I've had a read through of it, and it actually says, were asked just to record all your, all your conversations.
Yeah.
So it's not for me to sort of sit quietly and listen to, record other people, so it's my conversation they want.
Yeah.
Well it's other people as well I think, but, I believe you don't have to sit down  conversation on your on do you?.
No, not very often.
unless there's something seriously wrong 
Where, unless somebody's fallen asleep or something has bored somebody to death.
.
Erm, now what am I doing?.
You don't want one of these do you?
Yes I do, that's why I put the kettle on.
Right aha.
Erm, I better put these in the freezer for now hadn't I?
Yeah.
Cos were not going to do Christine's two straight away.
No,hot dogs tonight so do you mind having eh
No not at all.
right, I'll light the oven.
Mm.
Give it a chance to warm up, we needn't put it in for a bit.
No.
Sorry I was a long time I didn't
That's alright.
Eh  started chatting told him you've got a photograph of  for you.
Aha.
He said when were moving her bedroom around, if he, if we give him a shout he'll come over and help.
Oh, that's helpful .
Cos of taking the wardrobe of it and what have you.
Right , yeah.
I must admit I would be grateful cos if anything goes wrong
You can't get it back together .
can't get it back together
Yeah .
It'll be shameful to ask her
Yeah.
And then were, were, sort of D I Y .
Yeah.
Ooh, and mum also
Mm, mm.
this, you know with been thinking of Chris Causeway at the erm place too go.
Mm, mm 
M F I.
Mm.
And it's, it's the colour she wants, and not only has she got drawers, but she's got shelves down that side as well.
Yeah, that looks good.
Look at .
Yeah  I know M F I isn't far from er you.
No,.
There was a M F I along
There isn't any more it was right opposite me.
Oh it's gone ah, right.
it's not there any more.
Ok.
But we can get her, that  Christine  Christine.
Yeah.
Come and see, you know originally you wanted a white desk, not a black one.
Yeah.
Do you like the look of that with book shelves down the side there?
Yeah.
Yeah, you've got three doors which is more storage space than the other one, cos the other one only had a cupboard down  had no drawers, what's the matter?
Doesn't like it, you prefer the other one?
Yeah, I do.
It's just that you, your better of space if you have that one and you can books down there or on them whatever you want too  and if you had that one, you'd be able to have a, erm another cupboard as well probably.
Is it cheaper?
Well .
It's only cheaper because it's in a sale, it's been reduced down from forty pounds, it was forty pounds before.
No, if, if she didn't like it then we 
Well you can go and have a look if you like 
A .
If you don't like it it's up to you .
No I'm .
What's up?
Nothing.
What's up? there is, we can tell, what's the matter?
Tell us.
I like that one and now you've put me in a difficult position cos I like that one, have that one, but I like the lockable cupboard on the other one.
Lockable cupboard? there isn't a lockable cupboard .
Yes there is .
Yes there is .
Is there.
Yeah .
Yeah .
Yeah, but the other one, remember it was a choice of two wasn't it?
I thought we were getting her the one with the drawers  one with a lockable cupboard is,
Well , is a bigger one.
is a bigger one.
Yeah 
I thought we were getting her the one, but the only thing is the other has got drawers both sides hasn't it? if I remember rightly.
Just one side  I tell you what, let's take you, don't do that, or you'll break it off, let's take you and you can have a look at this one.
Why do you want a lockable cupboard?we don't  well it's very , so why do you need a lockable cupboard?
Cos I just need one, I just like it 
Well I don't think that one will fit in your bedroom in any case, having looked at the size of the wardrobes and the site of the gap that you've got.
No it was the other one, with the t , with the drawers that, that would er
That we thought was best 
Smaller one 
Well let's have a think, we'll, we'll have a think and then have a look, if we go up there it's a huge furniture place, they won't have just one they'll have more than one ok?
How about that?
Yeah.
I said, they won't just have one designer desk will they?
No, we'll have a look around, and see what they've got.
If they  just furniture ok, whereas Argos do a lot of other things as well, so if we take you over there you can have a look see if there's anything you really fancy.
I know it's awful  making you actually have to  decide for yourself .
I, I .
I like the one with the lockable cupboard door, but I like that one as well.
I don't think that one will fit in .
Yes.
If they took out one of these drawers and have a lockable cupboard I'd have it no questions.
Yeah, well let's go and have a look, ok.
Mm.
Don't make up your mind one way or the other, cos were have to take our tape measure.
that bit of icing.
No.
What's that?
Go on.
She's after h , our cake .
Have a gingerbread man.
I want some icing.
There's icing on the gingerbread man, your not .
.
After our cake is she?
She's asked for the icing of off our cake not our cake and she's not having it.
Do you want a gingerbread man with your cup of tea?
.
Oh, told you, got to eat all her dinner, oh, wow, gee 
Well, she had a chocolate biscuit, she had one of those snack things and an orange chocolate biscuit
Mm.
and I said well if you have that now, you better eat your dinner.
Ah.
And that was well erm,ha about an hour ago now.
I see, torturing that child again aren't you?.
That's right, I've been exceedingly cruel to her.
Childline, Childline  Den got us a Hovis loaf it looks  than the other one.
Mm.
Now .
Mm  
to have a gingerbread man if you want it otherwise let daddy    Oh what's this Bedknobs and Broomsticks?
Yeah, on tape   You know this  ah, it's the, the actual letter says we would like you to do, what we would like you to do is to record all your conversations with other people except telephone conversations over a, over a one week period, erm, but that's, that's not, doesn't quite,just need to record as much as I can.
Yeah.
Which is fair enough, that's what I'll do .
I just wondered why I heard a noise,the gerbils running .
Oh, yeah .
That's right.
It doesn't say anything about background noise or anything.
No.
So,television's on, radio's on or something.
.
Yeah.
.I love that cat.
Mm, wow.
They must off worked on that cat for hours to get into the .
Got Jaws the Revenge on at quarter too eight.
Mm, mm .
There's a choice between that and the Royal Variety Performance, no choice at all is there?
At all is there .
.. It didn't get a very good  in the book.
Didn't it?
No.
What, the erm the film or the
Tape.
Mm 
for children.
Yeah.
might be different.
That's right, so we'll have a look at it shall we?
Mm  That was  second tape is it that one?
Yeah, second tape .
It actually says that it, to only tell people if they ask what your doing.
Cos if people know there being recorded they tend to
I must admit I wondered.
Mm.
Because, it gets ridiculous and everyone gets very  into what there saying.
Yeah.
You know, and they  long conversation with each other were they get used to it.
Mm, yeah 
Oh it says in here explain what you are doing when you are recording the conversation you will need to explain to the other people involved what you are doing and why.
Mm, mm.
Ah, it maybe that  after the conversation has finished unless they ask you directly what you are doing.
That's what I, that's what I said, yeah  and they say that if your just walking around, unless your actually on your own 
Yeah.
Mm, pardon me, it's just, it, it pays just to run it, just to keep it going continuously 
I must admit you'll get through the tapes a lot quicker that way won't you?
Yeah.
I mean, I mean, one word  were usually talking same .
Yeah.
Oh, Big is on.
Big.
Big.
.
Yeah on Wednesday   Tom Hanks and Elizabeth Perkins, a twelve year 
.
Yeah.
A twelve year old makes a wish at a fair ground fortune telling booth that he could be big, and the next morning his astonished to find that he's fully grown 
.
Mm.
In the adult world he finds success at work and discusses romance, but soon learns that being a grown up is not all that's it cracked up to be .
It's a two hour film on Wednesday night.
.
Yeah, eight o'clock.
Oh good.
It's got Tom Hanks isn't it?
Yeah.
and  he changed places
That's right.
.
Mm, mm.
but they .
the twelve year old  
Ah, you got the Drowning Pool on again.
Sorry the Drowning
The Drowning Pool, that's Paul Newman and, and Janet erm, Joanne Woodward, that's the one where you get trapped in this place and it's filling with water.
I don't remember every seeing it.
They get trapped in a place and there, it's filling with water and they, they've gotta get them, they gotta, they gonna drown because it's filling with water and they gotta get out, get out before the room fills with water completely.
I don't remember seeing that.
Oh, it's a very good film   record it.
It's on Friday night.
I haven't done the dusting.
Oh, terrible.
But, huh.
.
But, erm, I have done the hoovering.
Had a calculator like that mum
Ha, ha, ha, ha.
Oh dear 
Oh, that's wicked  
Oh dear, I think I'm, I think I getting a bit boring.
Boring, why ?
Mm , that's a bit , a bit  up in it?.
What's he mean?
Don't know why you laugh at it then ,.
Yeah 
What's he mean mummy 
Oh 
Did you see out the  dressed up in, as a strawberry.
Oh.
He said he , a big strawberry .
Oh, they have lots of , yeah  ah.
Oh  oh, got his nose tucked under his wing.
Ah.
And it was the  family with the amazing flame dog .
oh dear     
He's got your jumper on.
Oh god.
Who has?
I'll never wear it again now.
.
Who has?
Who has?
Tony Blackburn is wearing daddy's jumper, you see when he opens the  .
What red one?
No.
No, there's grey one with the leather bits under the front.
Go on, smile.
I'm , hope not, I put that back,one,now give me a certain country where .
Just say any .
Er four .
You've got half of them over there, cos that's a .
.
There's some under there, you haven't got them all in there.
I know.
Well that's cheating.
put them there.
What .
.
In't that rotten, there got a thing, there got people voting, ringing in and voting to see whether they want Willy Thorn or John Virgo to go in the gunge tank.
Anyway  .
.
John Virgo's winning at the moment, if winning's the right word.
.
I'm er  I'm gonna erm, I might see if I can record some conversation on a bus, but I don't know.
Jack.
Sorry.
If I get Jack and somebody on the bus I might pop my hand inside my brief case and press the recorder  where's that cameraman hid then? oh it's built into the dashboard, yeah 
she's  
She's trying to be very nice and she's really fuming  Have you er finished with your tea?
I get you another 
Never mind when you come to  .
Yeah, look forward to that .
I'm not erm, I'm not going to be in a situation to record all my chat anyway, I don't think, because of the erm, the amount of it, when I'm running a course I do an awful lot of chatting during the day.
Yeah, well I mean even if you recorded as much as you can, if, you've got twenty tapes
Yeah.
so you've got plenty of er
Yeah.
I mean, when if you  .
And also I don't , I don't want it to be a barrier either.
No, well the thing is you, to be honest you forget about it don't you?
You do, yeah.
Just  explain and see what people say.
Mm.
If anybody asks us, you can tell them.
Yeah.
I'll have a quick, I have a word with Pauline on Monday see what she says.
Yeah.
And the thing is do, information about then if it procedures  for fraud, that's the problem.
That was brilliant..
We can record us going to work and coming home and on weekends .
And erm conversations erm at
At lunch time .
lunch time tea break time, things like that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But, you can have ask Pauline see what she says, but 
Mm 
But, erm, actually it would be probably be nice for you if you could record it in your training session because you can take  in your pocket and sometimes you, you can get a better idea of how it's
Mm, yeah.
How you sound and how it goes if you can
Mm.
do you know what I mean?
Yeah.
If  light bulb .
The light bulbs gone.
that one went the other night 
.
Oh dear, isn't that rotten?
He's got little  shorts on.
Yeah.
Do you want to play a game with me?
Well, well, what, what we've got to go and put the dinner in my darling.
I gotta get your dinner.
.
Oh you poor thing..
.
You can hear it  all of us .
What you, what you want to play patience?
No.
Pairs?
No, shuffle them.
Did you?
Er, ok, you tell me again.
.
Well I'm sorry Christine I've got to go and get dinner.
Yeah.
Grandma's be around here in about an hour.
The only reason I can er play is that, your dinner won't take very long to get.
you always , it's difficult  when were sat down doing nothing you don't ask.
Can you change your game, so you can play it with thr with two?
No, what you do
Mm, mm.
is erm, well you do it, you've got one Joker in pack right, and you mix them up and you deal them out and you look at your cards, if you've got a Joker
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah
then, then you, everyone's got to mix up there cards again
Mm.
You've got to put them in the order so you can see him, but the other person can't
Mm.
and you've got to pick someone to choose out your card, and they don't know if you've got the Joker or not
Mm, mm.
and they've got to pick one of the cards and they might get the Joker.
Right, I see.
But, the trouble is you can tell who's got the Joker when there's two, because if you haven't, you know the other person has.
Yeah.
But if you've got more than one person then it's harder.
Mm, we could play pairs if you like.
Snap?
Yeah, can play snap.
I put the same cards oh  and we can play .
Well, I won't, I'll play one game with you and then I'll go and get your tea  alright?
So.
I got some more rolls, so I'll put them in er big bag straight away, yeah .
Ok.
With got a few, with got a few left?
Better take the foil tray off the pipe.
I had to put one in the microwave 
..
Yeah doesn't do it   oh   I'll be bother if I get a cold next week.
Oh yeah.
.
Even if Henry's there, well he can't come in today,panic .
Panic , yeah.
As were already stretched to the limit with er
And  moved in on Monday.
That's right, there moving on Monday.
Oh you won't be able to come in any day with me next week will you?
Not in.
Won't be able to come in with me any day  I thought that was .
No you didn't, it's preferably alright  oh, right 
Dad.
Mm, mm  Oh  .
We know .
Yeah I know.
.
Oh, I'll empty that in a minute  I must admit I don't fancy trying to do it, it's going to be really cold and horrible.
Well, with got to .
Mm.
Once you got actually  watching .
Yeah.
It's not too bad is it?
Got  to do as well still.
Oh one of the women in work said we had eh a bit of bad news, she's really, really nice, I get on ever so well with her.
Mm, mm.
And she works for erm  and
Yeah.
Her husband erm, had a stroke
Oh.
or something  forty five.
Oh, it's young isn't it?
Yeah.
And she is so liked .
Mm 
But we, I thought I hadn't seen her around you know, because we, because of what I do
Mm.
with the National Health, then I have a lot, more contact with her than with most other groups.
Yeah.
There always referring stuff to us, were always referring stuff to them, do you know what I mean?
Yeah.
You better not of scratched that door.
I only just let him in.
Ben  It's raining.
Oh.
Come on Ben, oh come here, come here, come on,.
No you're not going to go   But she's a really nice person, I  ruined her Christmas .
How bad was it?
Is he
Well we don't know any details yet, I think he's, he's off work .
Yeah.
When did he have it did she say?
Last week, some time.
So he's obviously been incapacitated in some way.
Well he's in hospital .
Oh, alright, if he's in hospital then it must be pretty 
Forty five it's no age is it?
No 
Put a bit of kitchen roll on the table.
Yeah ok, so it won't slip round  Christine.
Yeah.
Your tea's ready.
Alright 
Oh.
They look nicer don't they, there thicker.
Mm.
Might as well go in for a bit because .
Yeah .
Christine your tea.
Go and get your tea.
Alright , alright.
There you are.
Ooh, crinkles, oh you got them, you got the crinkled ones.
Yes .
Oh there pretty kilts on there.
I was just thinking I wonder how my erm, what a do about choir practice this week.
Mm.
.
Take it with you 
I'm not recording ca choir practice.
, you won't want to hear you blow a thing.
That's not conversations is it?
No.
I suppose I a better mention it too Pauline, only I was thinking if I did just conversations, could also do the domestics.
appointment .
And then not record anything to do with the procedures, although there are some things that will probably be ok to record.
Yeah, that's it, I mean, you, you've got to  job,.
Yeah.
.
Question, of whether I ask Pauline, or I whether I just do it.
Yeah I mean she  probably would be wise to mentioned it to her.
Yeah.
Cos if she saw you with it on
Mm.
doing, running her lecturers
Mm.
she might get  what she's doing you know.
Yeah.
So it would probably be better to mention it to her, but say you'll be discreet, not record anything that .
Yeah.
I mean there are certain things like, the general conditioners to benefit, which erm, are alright, but there are other things that I know about and that I will pass on to people to look out for that I wouldn't want  eh, that you wouldn't want eh, erm, outsiders to know.
dinner a be ready.
Oh, right.
Was that nice Christine?
Mm 
I'm wasting my life exercising tonight as well 
Mm.
Even if I've got to do them when mum and dad gone home.
Yeah.
open the oven door and jump back .
yeah.
back to front is it?
Do you want a roll?
No I don't think,
Ok.
Not now, later, later.
Alright.
That's so funny, that chap's got a, he has got erm, an Indian accent with a Welsh accent on top,it's really .
, yeah 
Interesting  Pauline at work, she's ever so hurt, couldn't get over it, she came up to me the other day she said, hello, how long has it been  we haven't seen one another for two months .
Oh, oh yes, cos she, wasn't she 
She was in it in India.
India.
For
That's right.
three weeks, four weeks.
Mm.
Er, no I was on holiday for a week
Mm, mm.
Then while I was away  she went on holiday straight after.
Yeah 
No it was our summer holiday, I went off for two weeks, when I came back Paula was off for a month.
Mm, mm.
Then, since then, with me being sick that time and what have you, she was in Cornwall the week her, the couple of weeks I was in
Yeah.
visiting, so  just haven't seen one another at all it was really annoying.
.
yeah .
.
Mm.
I can't imagine her getting .
She's got here tremendously fast cos she won't be staying that long.
No, good ones move on so fast don't they?
Yeah.
I'm finished  .
That's why we tend to stay where we are .
Oh, no she could go anytime, she says what, what will happen there'll  inspectors are put on a register
Yeah.
and I mean there aren't many, in our place with got about ooh, twenty or thirty in 
Yeah.
but there's only  five principal inspectors, and she's got principal inspector grade
Mm.
now
Yeah.
so, when she moves that'll be it we just won't see her any more.
Mm.
Funny, ha, ha, ha.
Can I have the salt please Christine?
There's two  more inspector's I must admit.
He keeps there opinion about 
Oh.
.
Mm.
Very moody
Yeah.
so if his going his way that's fine
Mm.
if not, look out.
So 
That look's quite simple, aha, that's not  
Mummy .
Oh, Brian took me round that corner, right, slowed down too much
Yeah.
he took me round that corner for three times today.
.
Ev , and, he'd say oh turn left here and all that and then you'll be going along and I'd think oh 
You'd be  coming at it again 
I'm coming up to it again, he says turn left up ahead, I think ,and here we go .
Oh dear
That bit was rude,.
, he .
Mm, mm.
.
Mm.
You know that balloon he gave, it landed in erm, pass  field.
Oh.
Show gran  to see where it was.
Ah,.
I bet there was loads of people down there.
Yes, more coming all the time.
Mm.
He must dread that.
Perhaps I missed it, it had about twelve people in it.
Twelve people.
It's a huge balloon, absolutely huge.
I didn't think they took that many 
They said what's that, what's that, it's margarine every single bit right, and  was wearing the balloon it was  in his eyes.
Aha, ha.
Tony.
Yeah  what, what's he doing?
.
Oh  ha.
Chasing dots alike.
.
There going loopy.
I think this recorder must be, it adjust the level  automatically.
Does it?
Mm.
Can we watch a film tonight mum?
If I cough or something it goes quite for a little while then comes back again.
Oh.
Erm, there's Jaws on Christine.
Oh.
Jaws the Revenge.
Oh.
Is it?
Yeah.
We see what it's like, and if it's  not very good we'll watch something else.
I  
Oh this is going to be interesting 
Oh got to .
I nearly got involved in that at one time, I's about 
You .
yeah, I's about ten like that, when I was about eleven 
Mum I thought 
There's a metallist girl who was interested in it, she wanted me to be her partner  mm, went along once or twice but
I've got a
two left feet.
Weren't impressed.
No.
No.
I've got a  hour.
Mm.
Becky said oh no, no , oh I thought .
Mm.
..
That's an audition then.
That's a
She said at the .
Mm, mm.
One girl there, she's in our group she had brilliant , really good singing voice.
Mm.
Brilliant.
You have a go your self?
Yeah.
So is it  you say no, have to  she showed up .
Mm, mm.
.
Wow, what you doing then?
What is it?
It's a play.
Is it?
Aha, yeah.
Mm.
Well she was a dancer, but eh  .
Well, she's a dancer, singer all sorts  acting 
You have to work  hasn't she?
Raise me foreheads be careful there.
Yeah, strong.
Ya, straight on the floor.
Mm.
She had her foot up touching his ears, he had his ear like that.
I must admit I was never very good at dancing but, I was good at catching.
and they dropped you  yes .
Never dropped anyone.
But, just that you couldn't keep up with them .
Step on there feet, yeah.
.
.
.
.
lift me up, lift me up and I went back  and I went back and I, I   fell .
Mm.
Was she .
I know but she still lives there,drop me then, she dropped me .
Oh save him a bit of it.
No.
Ah I've forgotten his chip, his looking all
Cos you've eat it all.
Yes, yes.
You've been cruel.
Oh.
.
Your licking your lips and you haven't got a chip have you?
Go on dad 
Got one, say thank you..
.
Aha, cup of tea?
Ok.
Oh aren't they lovely?
What the  jugs?
The jugs yeah.
Didn't see them properly.
They were like bunches of oranges and lemons
Oh.
if you know what I mean
Yeah I know.
.
In ceramic?
Yeah 
A what?
A Pocket T V.
Pocket T V.
.
A radio, the  the cuddly toy er
Good grief she's got a good memory.
The coffee maker, the  the  er  
God, she, she was brilliant.
She got an awful lot of things didn't she?
There's a really good game we did at, at Rammore for remembering people's names.
Yeah.
And they, it was a bit frightening because we were in a group of seventeen and see what I mean when, I mean how it starts is like if were starting with me, I have to say I'm Tony, right, and then you would say I'm Jackie and this is Tony and then Christine would say I'm Christine this is Jackie, this is Tony, I was at the end of a group of seventeen  and I had heard it sort of, you hear it, it builds up round the room
Yeah.
We've had a game like that .
So that you can in the end, when I came to do it, although it was seventeen people I didn't find it too difficult.
No, cos you just remember the order that you went round the room in and .
That's right, well no, these were people and, some of the people I knew, some of the people I hadn't met before.
Ah.
Daddy.
And so I had to sort of go round the room and say I'm Tony and this is, and go all round, and I got round the room.
.
Yeah.
So you did quite well.
But I was surprised that I got round the room, cos I'm awful at remembering names  I think I'm gonna have to try and
Dad do we have to  we have to come up with a name.
Mm.
With a first name, so I said her and Chris
Oh yeah 
The man said .
Mm.
Erm, but, we had a, that was, that was quite good, but I must, there's a trick to remembering names, and that is that you use it all the time, so any time, if you want to remember somebodys name, every time you see them you say hello and there name
Yeah.
and that sort of imprints it on you.
Yes.
Cos I've noticed there is an awful lot of people do that to me.
Yeah.
I'm terrible for people's names
Mm.
I'm absolutely hopeless.
Places, I can tell you I know somewhere looking at them and I think where do I know you from
Yeah.
Names ooh.
Yeah.
And that, that can be difficult in training because you see so many people and they spend the week looking at you and they've got one name to remember, but you've got eight or twelve names to remember
Yeah.
and you see them a three weeks later and they say hello Tony and you think hello, who the hell are you?.
My watch is breaking up.
Breaking up.
Yeah.
What the strap?
No, the case.
, oh, the case.
, fit this in already,so, you know the other side.
.
Where the strap goes into the case.
The other side, the  
Oh oh I see.
See the bit lifting?
Yeah, I can.
Missing a little bit missing bit further along as well.
Daddy I thought .
What you doing .
Erm, I think if they killed a shark 
Well they yeah, they, they killed Jaws about  .
Yeah, but there's an awful lot of sharks about.
Yeah, but they reckon that this is the same shark,he's killed twice now.
Well it was killed in Jaws.
It was killed in the second one as well.
But there's lots of great white  .
Cos this is the fourth film.
Yeah, I know, it was killed in the one where it got trapped in the .
That's right.
And it was killed in the first one, that was two .
Yeah .
But, there's thousands and thousands of great .
Oh, I don't know how people can eat fish like that.
No, I can't, it'll, if you don't take the head of it I can't eat it, I couldn't even, I have prawn cocktail  and you have a prawn, they put, they put a prawn on top whole, I couldn't eat that, I could have peeled it, I looked at it and I thought about it, no, I can eat them when there done
Yeah but not.
but not when there not done 
Oh remember when I was squeezing that .
I haven't heard a word of this so far.
Sorry.
Not a single word .
It looks really weird seeing Christmas and it's hot and they can go swimming and .
Yeah .
That's right.
I really don't think I'd like that Christmas and it's cold toesie's
Mm.
Yeah, pretty odd thing .
That's right.
I like .
Yeah.
.
Mm.
Is that a mechanical one?
Yeah.
.
.
When they were doing the first picture they had, I think  it was.
Yeah.
And it .
Mm.
Do you know mummy
.
do you know when the  come up on the side, that from .
And your be  Guy.
Did she go along with a friend?
horses.
What?
It was a question of  and it's a little 
Tell her about .
Mm .
Ah ..
You sneezing Rene?
.
Sneezing?
Yeah 
I've been doing that today as well.
Good if I get a cold cos I got erm training course next week.
Five days of non-stop talking.
You'll have to  to get one over .
Mm.
.
I tried to, er, I told  I got criticised for slowing down too much, going into a corner on my dr driving test, I told Brown which corner it was, he took me round there three or four times to s today on my lesson, yeah, we'll keep doing it till you get it right .
The only way Tony.
That's right.
.
Oh pardon me.
You were looking a bit sorry for yourself when we came back cos he buys flowers and he gives , so he'll buy them the day before, I got the next day, there their making  in all that  
Stop what?
Stop the bus .
Do you have a recording on there?
It .
Mm.
Cos, is it ?
Yeah.
Oh look, aha, oh my god 
That big .
Now that is fake, who  world.
Yeah.
Yeah.
got a large one 
.
.
Come on Ben.
If I lo , if I sit out there looks, looking sorry for myself then somebody will  take me .
When was, what's the matter with you?.
Oh is he related then to er
Beryl.
That chap with the curly hair.
Yeah .
Well that's his brother.
He's the brother .
Oh right.
the one who got killed, he's the police chief's son.
He's the brother .
Right.
And she's the police chief's wife.
Ok.
And her mother.
Yeah.
So she's now lost her husband and one son and he's the other son.
Yeah, got it, ok 
to work the way he  the other ones.
.
Th this shark has got nine lives I think.
Yeah.
Could be it's brother .
Christine, you've got a quarter of an hour and then you go out on the table, cos that dinner is going anywhere  
I am going to  
I think if Michael Caine's  played a part of a toy- boy .
Well he's hardly a toy-boy.
Erm ,, no I don't think he's a toy-boy.
About the same age ha, ha.
Well I didn't know that, I only asked.
No, a toy-boy is where you've got an old lady with a fif there's about a twenty year old bloke .
Boy , yeah .
Mm.
A toy-boy is
.
Granddad is that a toy-boy or a  .
Jack 
Give me five.
Michael .
Really.
Yeah, O R E somebody else is sure they knew 
, oh great.
Do you say   .
.
Oh.
When were watching television and nobody's talking much there's not much point is that?
No point no, we could take Ben out, but there won't be much point is there?
No, unless somebody comes with me.
All you'll say is sit, stay, there's a good boy .
Yeah, you've got to do it with the right inflect as well.
Yes.
There's a good boy .
.
There's a slightly response too.
Yeah it is Billy told me there would, that's what makes a .
Yeah.
.
What   other day  those Christmas cards, there a little bit disappointing you know.
Are they?
There nice designs, but there not very big but some of them are really tiny.
Oh.
But they are nice .
Well.
There  handy  work.
Yes.
The little ones.
That's just what I was gonna say .
There pretty cards.
Mm.
But some of them are really small.
Mm.
. I don't know half the people in area office to send them cards.
They say in that thing that you don't want half conversations.
Half conversations?
Yeah, if you think you might come to the end of a conversation before you reach the end of the tape, they've rather you put a new tape in .
.
Mm, ok, yeah, thank you dad.
I suppose
You can have it back actually.
No I don't .
It was only erm to show Tony that, there.
sorry, put it in the erm  put it in the cage, first thing I built.
Yeah.
Put in he's bedding.
Yeah I ask mum and dad to stay with us a few more , two thirds of a carrier bag full.
Mm 
Got to keep  tomorrow of er what time, I get you  in that carrier .
Yeah 
You know we've decided to leave the car possibly.
Yeah.
You know what happen now, it's raining .
Ah.
It does it every time.
Never mind, see what the weather's like tomorrow then won't we?
It's so annoying to end up, never at a pub .
No.
Cos you clean a little bit, you clean the outside and it's raining, cos you can't take the hoover out there and
Clean the inside.
Clean the inside.
And then by the time you get round in cleaning the inside, the outsides dirty .
The outsides dirty .
Yeah 
So, er,she's getting ever so grubby looking now, I reckon very soon we'll gonna have to talk about getting some more er  covers.
Mm, mm.
Er, Yuk .
Sorry 
When do you think we'll be able to .
erm
Before February?
That's when we planned to weren't it?
Only eh, I'd like to know over the Christmas period if any little habits surface.
Yeah , yeah, ok, Kim can do it this month .
came in late .
Yeah, we can do it this month.
Mm, for a brand new Rolls Royce, it's not going very well is it?
Oh dear 
Read this little name fifty fifty engine it just doesn't get you along very good, does it?
Yeah .
Certainly had a nine fifty Rolls Royce would get along very well .
Tony would you do the table?
Yeah.
Wipe the work top off and then that .
Yeah  Oh good.
.
Reckon they ought to replace super glue with baked beans you know.
Yeah, or cornflakes.
Yeah, milk and cornflakes.
cornflakes.
Deadly combination.
Never  on the worktop .
Just making sure 
No, I think it needs cutting,a lot more,going browner and more miserable .
Oh.
I don't know though it's difficult to tell, I mean that one that's lost a leaf but the rest of it looks  alright.
Mm.
That one  
Oops, sorry 
Those light bulbs that seemed to go like mad are erm Tesco's own brand.
Mm.
I just replaced one in the lamp in there and it was a Phillips one and I haven't bought any of those for ages, do you know what I mean
Yeah.
So I think they've lasted alright.
It was
The Tesco ones don't seem to last very long.
Mm.
Right.
So I think I'll get them up at Asda, get the Phillips one's I think.
Mm, mm.
I do wonder whether they keep  or whether  , do you know?
No.
It's more likely to be the light bulb.
I know, just that when your house needs a re-wiring got  you worry  I wished they never  got rid off her new Christmas one, just think all the money we've spent on 
Yeah .
doing up this house so far.
Yeah.
.
Yeah.
Of borrowing money,, we've got kitchen done, bathroom, the doors and new windows, to re-wire everything
Yeah.
all on home improvements.
They paid ninety per cent didn't they?
Yeah.
Of course what happens, just before we buy our house it stops .
Yeah.
, yeah they take ninety per cent of the .
I mean you could have a whole new roof put on your house and it would cost about six thousand, seven thousand pounds and
You pay
you pay six hundred.
yeah.
I tell you what we'd have the best house round here if a  I can't get over that lady over the road though and her husband.
Mm.
They , they painted there house a year ago and they've done it again this year, you can't tell where it's stopped and where it's done, do you know what I mean.
Yeah.
It just didn't need doing.
Whereas our house badly needs painting doesn't it?
The, you know,, yeah.
Oh, like everything else.
.
throwing the money away.
Mm, shall I go out with Fido now?
Yeah.
Take Fido for a walk.
Are you gonna take Fido for a walk?go for a walk.
Have you got a photograph like .
No.
That's right, that's one Frankfurt and one , bet you .
Yeah.
You had the  last year.
That's right, yeah  Ah.
Pity they didn't  postcard ones weren't it , so they gave it .
Well I can't understand it, it's at the other .
Mm, this time they, you've got four  ones, and two medium sized ones, they sort off, almost as if there doing you out of a big size photograph.
Yeah.
Granddad got to give you some as well aren't he?
What's that?
Were having a week .
Ah.
Oh 
And what's your next  
what was the .
Erm, maximum prize.
Yeah, well what's it, I mean what's the .
One, he said.
Well .
No, there's something else  
You got twenty   There you've got to .
Ok  that's fifty nine each 
Dad.
No, one eighteen.
Can I have seventy five erm seventy five P for my  money.
Yeah.
Is that being recording?
Yeah.
ok, come on nan pay up.
.
..
.
I have to go upstairs and get it.
Ok, sorry dad, but I need it in .
Yeah ok.
Oh, no I haven't, got it here.
Ah  Ah,right, I haven't got the change yet at the moment, I'll have to 
You got to take it
I've got the change, you pay me back, I might have, alright.
I mean, I've only got a five pound note.
Have you got enough change to give her one pound fifty Jack?
I've got a pound coin, but I don't think I've got any , I'll have a look  ooh let's have a look, I think I've only got a pound coin.
I've got a  Jack .
I've only got ten  .
Oh, that would be a help.
Have a look  Right so if I give you  one fifty, there you are.
Seventy five P each.
That's one fifty, that's right.
You have that towards the, though I've got to give you seventy, seventy five so shall I give it to you when I've got the whole lot?
I  I'm not worried.
Ok.
Where you out on the front,.
Oh you can write, read a form can't you?
Oh no, my writing's .
Your writing's  good.
No it isn't.
Dad
.
Can I borrow your .
Yeah  Gets this .
Yeah.
Right.
Oh.
I'll cut some rolls, shall I?
Ok
Oh yeah, shall I go and find out?
Yeah.
Ok.
Mm.
What have we got?
Cheese or there's a little, there's a little it of beef.
Cheese or beef rolls?
Cheese please.
Rene?
Nothing for me yet Tony.
No rolls at all?
No thanks.
Ok  I wonder if, shall I ask Christine?
Yeah, she might as well.
Do you want some rolls Christine?
Erm  two?
Yeah, what do you want on them, Marmite?
Ok.
As usual 
Christine will have them, Rene doesn't want any at all.
If there's only a bit of beef you have the beef and I'll have some cheese.
What , are you sure?
Yeah and some for Christine.
Well that's two for you, two for dad, one for me and one for Christine, I don't want .
Ok  I'm happy with that.
You sure?
Yeah.
Cos I don't mind cheese and Marmite  if you have the beef.
No, it's alright, I'll have the cheese.
that's ok then.
Yep.
My love, will you do me a favour then, you do it all up, cos it won't keep you know .
Yeah .
It won't keep until after the weekend, but it'll be alright t today.
Aha.
do dum 
.
I, she's been ripping all the newspaper .
Yeah.
Great.
She's got have a clean out tomorrow so we'll be able to tidy up all again .
.
Until she decides to have another ripping   I'll be glad next year when they go out in the garden again, do you know what I mean?
Yeah, it'll be nice and you can fix , fix them up a run and 
.
Do you want me to do crisps or anything?
Yeah,crisps,, no , oh your horrible licked that, oh look at that?
.
Oh, yuk 
.
Your horrible, er yuk  told you it's an extravagant.
It'll be more extravagant to let it go to waste .
You know how to do  don't you?
No, I never do it.
I just don't know  at the end.
Yeah.
Neither do I.
Sorry.
I said neither do I .
have such a good time  .
Sort of.
Yeah.
Got to find it first..
Cupboards fine it's eh, in fact there's too much stuff in it.
.
Weren't so many   Ooh, where's my pickled of walnuts gone? where are my pickled walnuts, there in here somewhere.
I  to get down in the cupboard.
No, I don't think it's gonna be there.
Oh 
Oh, I hate this cupboard.
. Oh Tony.
I don't know what you've done 
Wanna scream  Oh,.
I hope not  I see if they want any  do you want, do, do you want any crisps?
Well I'll have half a packet with you, but chipsticks if you've got them.
Mm, mm.
Just have half.
Ok.
.
Got any chipsticks?
I think so.
Oh  did leave them in there   perhaps I've put them up on the shelf.
No, there they are.
. Perhaps when you loose your pickled walnuts.
That's right, yes.
That's alright.
Mum would you like a pickled walnut?
No thanks.
Oh no, she's not having anything .
Chipsticks and a pickled walnut , yuk 
Oh, I've  when and got that great big jar of them for Christmas.
Aha.
I know they cost a fortune, but oh.
Yeah, cost a fortune.
Sorry.
Yeah, cost a fortune 
Now what you do with this .
Two teaspoon .
That's right, yeah.
With about a third of a cup of milk, you mix it up with some sugar and then you put boiling water in.
One, one full teaspoon.
Right.
, find a space for it again there.
I must sort this cupboard out because there's plenty of room in  there.
Oh, yeah.
Do you want some crisps?
See you Monday, yeah cheerio, bye, bye 
Cheerio 
Cheerio my love .
See you, yeah 
Bye, bye Christine.
Safe journey .
Yeah.
Cheerio, see you Monday,.
Take care.
You pick your paper up?
No, I don't want take it.
Do you want eh, all right then be brave, don't worry.
Ooh it's still wet out, it's still raining.
Is it raining?
No, it's not raining.
No, it's not raining oh that's good then.
So you .
I, see you again then.
See you again.
Cheerio Tony .
Yeah , cheerio  in't Christine ought to go to bed?
Yeah.
Come on get undressed..
Yeah.
Christine.
Ok.
Are you miss moody?
Just at the moment yeah 
.
Oh I wondered where that pen had got to  now where's my cardigan?put my cardigan on the floor.
Oh, that's nice.
Charming, mind if I watch .
No  do you want me sort out the gerbils.
Well if you wouldn't mind, I'll do the rabbit, guinea pig while you
Ok 
We'll do half each .
Yeah.
Erm, there is some more cabbage in the gerbils, can you take it out,.
Mm, mm 
What did they have last night?
Last box of spring greens went off  horrible.
Is it?
Yeah 
I'll get them some fresh water as well.
Sorry.
I'll get, give them some fresh water as well.
I'm still learning, so many things to think about when I'm driving.
There are.
Yeah.
For I'm afraid my 
I 
love there are, till it becomes automatic ,
Mm .
it could take a little while.
I pulled up fairly tight behind a car
Yeah.
and then I was trying to come out and I started to pull out into a gap and Brian said oh know, don't pull out  I said oh okay, he said the thing is your fairly tight so your gonna have to come out slowly so you need a bigger gap than otherwise.
Yeah.
And the gap wasn't really big enough, do you know what I mean?
Yeah.
It would off been o okay if I just been able to pull out and drive down the road
Yeah.
because I had to pull out round the stationery vehicle as well, I would off taken too long getting out
Yeah.
and I'd have caused the other one to slow down.
Yeah, there's a lot to this driving business unfortunately.
.
So while your trying to do it, it, you .
Yeah.
I've pulled the old greens out.
Good.
They didn't seemed to have that much of it actually.
No, it's erm  it's sometimes .
It depends how they have to feel it .
Oh, can you .
Yeah  Oh 
Ah, you'll find some cupboard .
Yeah.
A couple of tins of peas left out, try and find a space for them to go back in again.
.
Greater a man have died for laughter.
Not easier.
Trying to get the peas back in the cupboard.
Oh  could you hang on to that lot a minute.
Mind the carrots doesn't drop in.
Yep , ok.
What you been doing stinker, look at the mess  yeah, look at all this ooh.
Yeah, your not supposed to be coming out.
.
You little stinker.
Yes you are, your an old stinker, yes you are.
Shall I put this in there?
Oh, good girl.
There, ooh .
Oh, there's a good girl.
.
Mm, she's got a lovely coat.
Ah cos of the food and the condition she's kept in isn't it?
.
What you've been up to too?
Look.
Oh god,, I've checked, all this has got to be chucked away, has it?.
Actually, I think this  some more hay , there's hardly any in there.
Ok.
I'll have that.
Yeah.
.
Oh there.
Thanks.
Mum
What, what is it Christine?
I go, I got to .
Ok.
I didn't want to .
Alright.
.
Yeah, ok.
Christine's gone to bed.
You alright?
They eat the hay   They've bitten all the apple 
Shall I er lock the front door and sort Ben out?
Erm, please, and .
Would you wanna , would you wanna sit for a bit before he goes back?
What time is it?
Five to one.
Drop of Sherry.
Mm, could do.
Glass.
Yeah.
Ok.
It's tape number four.
That one's alright, this one.
That one start again.
Yeah.
.
Oh well.
Ah   
everything.
I wonder, I wonder what they get from some people you know.
Sorry.
Must be fun.
Yeah.
Cut all our naughty bits out.
.
.
That's right.
I do find I'm conscious of it a lot of the time.
Other people probably can forget about it cos I'm wearing it, I feel conscious of it a lot of the time.
I'm not, I must admit I don't think about it now, so if  wearing it puts you off.
Yeah.
You know what I mean, it's taking you .
What I'll do when I'm, if all the if signs and buts are covered, I will put the mike on it's stand when I'm working tomorrow, put it on the desk and put the recorder in the, in my briefcase underneath the little desk
Yeah.
cos there's a little coffee table sort of thing that I put my script on
Yeah.
and put my brief case underneath it
You'll have to take it home.
and the microphone on to on top.
Have you read it again and realised what you're supposed to do you'll have to take some spare tapes in and spend lunch times  won't you?
Yeah, but that's, just one, I mean I'm not gonna record, if I try and record the whole of the course
You can't.
I can't.
True,.
That's right, but
Because ok, yeah stuff remains anonymous
mm
but you're giving people how, how to defraud benefit.
yeah, I can't do that.
Erm, so  you've got to do that.
No, oh, a lot of the session's when they're talking about data types and things like that  oh I don't know, cos there's security aspects to that you see.
Yeah, but then, if it's obscure that nobody apart from someone working in the office that'll understand it, does it matter?
The only way it would matter is that somebody breathes the information to, if they could get hold of a card, and get into an office, they could actually use the information to make a payment.
If they knew how.
If they knew how.
Mm, yeah, but be honest for what you're using, for what you've said, would they pick up that, with not having 
Not unless .
a computer in front of them and being able to look at it and do what you're saying?
No.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, I'd, I'll have to blank it out the part when I'm talking about passwords and things as well.
Yeah.
Cos they're all passwords that protect the system.
Yeah 
Yeah, but apart from that, you're right.
Yeah it's like ours we've got passwords.
Mm  yeah and then everyone's got their own, I've got my own personal one as well.
We've got our own personal one too, our .
Mm  no, mines more boring than that.
Is it?
My pin number.
Oh.
I use my bank pin number, that way I don't forget it .
Oh I see that, that's how you remember, oh the other day I went to look at Asda you know, put my card in the machine and my mind just went totally blank, do you think I could remember the dam number.
.
I stood there, in the end I keyed in a number which was one digit wrong
Mm.
and I thought, it came out erm, incorrect pin number, please remove your card, I thought  at least I'm getting it back you know so I whipped it out, I said to mum, I'm gonna have to pay for this with a cheque, I said, I can't get the cash out, and she, she said why, and I said I, I forgotten my number , I was getting in quite a panic cos I knew I didn't have it written down anywhere at home.
Yeah, mm.
Do you know what it is now?
Yeah, I remembered it while I was walking round the shop, cos the more I yeah, the more I thought about it the worse I got when I stood by the machine.
That's alright then.
Cos I know yours, yeah, yeah
So I took my card and went in I thought well I'll pay for this by, by cheque
Yeah.
Erm, but I wanted some cash, so what I did in the end was walked round Asda remembered it, or thought I remembered it, came back out put the erm card back in and the terminal came up erm  it's ok.
nervous now, you're gonna be checking that quite a bit.
Yeah the terminal came up erm, due to an error were unable to complete your transaction, so I thought oh great, so I can't have my money in any place
.
then I felt a real twit, cos a man came up and I said I think something's gone wrong with the auto bank machine, says I, it won't give me any money because it's, it's coming up there's an error, so he said well I'll try and see, he says, he put in exactly the same card as me, he had the Midland card, put it in, got his money
.
so I thought, right, I'm not going to be beaten, so I got, went back in again, put the card back in, gave me my money that time.
Mm.
But, it, it wasn't saying I'd made, made an error
No.
it was saying due to an error
There's probably some disruption to the  to the transmission or something for an .
Yeah.
Cos it only needs 
But I felt such a twit, cos I said to this man I, I don't know about you, but I can't get my money.
it only needs for a little bit of attention on a wire or something
Yeah.
to just make it erm, shut out just for a split second
Yeah.
and it'll throw the whole thing.
But that was not a good day  .
no  .
Oh, no I put a six where a five should be, in my pin number, that's all I did, but I just, I just stood there and my mind just completely went blank, I couldn't remember it at all.
And I'd already pushed the card in
Yeah.
so I had to key in something.
Mm, oh I , I'd turned round, I can't remember what it was  oh, what was it all about?
I was doing a training session and I said erm  I'd, I'd started to say something and I'd done it, I was talking about something and I hadn't done the bit before
mm.
so they couldn't understand what I was saying, do you know what I mean?
Yeah,.
and I said  erm,
Do you want to make .
forget all about that, just let your mind go blank and I look round and I said cor that was quick .
.
Cos they're all looking pretty blank anyway you know.
Yeah,.
Ooh 
Well I don't think information about the, the seven, what are the seven conditions of receipt of benefit and things like this would be a State secret.
No, unemployed dirty old thing,living in a caravan, with a big dog  Sorry.
Big, hairy and stroppy, you'll get whatever you like.
yeah .
.
Oh yeah,, big, hairy, stroppy, dirty thing whatever you like.
Not quite true, but
Go on   doesn't it make you sort of  bias when you actually work for the system?
Erm.
And you see the nice people coming in and not getting really
Mm.
what's due to them, see somebody coming in threaten to punch somebodies lights out and they get all the
Yeah.
you know?
But then, to my mind, the person that who, who threatens to punch the lights out and gets whatever they want, everyone should get the degree of service.
Yeah, but the don't, and unfortunately it's the nice people that suffer.
No , but it's up to the every individual to try and make sure that they do get that level of service.
So what are, yeah but, if to get that level of service you've got to threaten somebody
Yeah well you, you shouldn't have to threaten somebody to get good service.
no, but you do have to.
You shouldn't.
No, but you do, in the, in the end.
Depends on the people.
Mm.
Depends on the actual person you see and what their attitude is.
Yeah.
And I must admit once I'd been  I'd, early on when I didn't know an awful lot, then, yeah, but, later on when I had been more experienced there wasn't, there was very little difference between how I treated people whether they made a fuss or not.
Yeah, that's right, well that's the way it should be
Mm.
but you're in the mi minority in, in actually
Mm.
doing that and saying that, and that's wrong.
Mm, yeah, I'm 
But ,
trying to do something about it.
yeah.
.
That's right, I mean the thing is you train people to do it properly
Yeah.
they then go back to their office and unfortunately a lot of what other people in the office are doing are taught
Yeah.
and that I think really have more of an influence, cos they're not going to change themselves into an individual
No.
by doing something different to everyone else.
Yeah, I see what you mean.
They're not in a situation where they can take an individual line at that point.
No.
It's only later on when they're more experienced that they can actually say, well hang on a minute  I can do more for this person  and I'm going to do more for this person.
But I think that's the only thing were, if I worked in a benefit office I wouldn't get on very well, because if I saw something  I'd try and move heaven and earth to make  everything to go right for me .
And that, and that would make you good.
Yeah, but in the beginning I'd get criticized for not being quick enough in my  ,
I don't know .
because I'd chase people round to find, till I found out what I wanted to know.
Mm, yeah.
Do you know what I mean.
The sort of things I'm talking about, I'm, I'm thinking of is ok somebody, a mistake's been made, somebody hasn't got their payment out
Yeah.
alright, and the difference between that is er and then the degree of service that they get, erm you can say you'll get it in the post two days in, in two days, or you can say erm, we'll get a giro cheque written out for you, initial it to you at the counter
Mm.
at half past three  or you can say  if you'd like to, if you'd like to wait for half an hour, we'll get a giro cheque to, issued to you or if you'd rather you can come back at half past three and collect it.
Yeah, that unfortunately the majority of people say you'll get money in a couple of days, then the person would start to argue, because they need their money now to go and buy their shopping.
Yeah, yeah  and that's   degrees of service
Yeah.
I mean that, in that situation I would try and say sort of 
Me, I, I know .
Do you need the money urgently?
Mm, and they're always going to say yes aren't they, unless they're a reasonable human being and has got a bit of money they can use .
Yeah , yeah, only erm 
But I must admit, I, I am a bit snobbish in it, I would move heaven and earth to help someone who  looked clean and nice and had good manners.
Mm.
If it was someone coming in with a nasty attitude really filthy, scruffy, dirty, no fixed address because they lived in er  er, an old wagon some where
Mm.
I think I'd be less inclined 
Yeah.
but having said that, I'd still give them
Only thing is dealing with the awkward people 
Shall I get down?
Yeah, yes please.
that distinguishes a professional to somebody who isn't.
Oh yeah, I, I'd give them the same options but
Ow!
with someone who's nice, put it that way, I'd almost definitely try, I'd get the, say that they could have the giro today
Mm.
Straight away.
With someone who's not I'd try and get them to wait for a couple of days and then if they wouldn't I'd go through the  and get them it today.
Mm, mm.
Do, do you see the difference?
It wouldn't be, I wouldn't say oh no you can't have it, but I'd say well you'll receive it in a couple of days time and if they said oh well that's not good enough, then fair enough, you, you know.
Mm.
But somebody who's nice I'd think no, why 
Mm .
should they have to wait because  but the, I, these people they are , they've opted out of society, they want nothing to do
They don't ,
with society apart from the giro cheque on paper
yeah well they don't
they want
you don't have problems with their payments.
no, no it's, it's the people that think the world owes them a living, but they don't want to give anything back and that really bugs me.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Mm, mm, yeah, I must admit I wouldn't, I agree with what you say, where I wouldn't classify those people as being of no fixed abode, they're not necessarily of no fixed abode, there are a lot of people who would, living in flats and Council houses and things like that, they've got that attitude
Who .
and some of the people who were no fixed abode, actually trying very hard to get work.
Mm, no, by no fixed abode I didn't mean, I did say the .
Mm.
It's the people that get
No, but, even, even some of those  erm the only thing is they tend to get work and they tend not to tell you they've done it .
No, it, no it's the one's that have opted out and they don't try to get work and they don't want work
Yeah.
those are the ones that I'd be, cos it's obvious, I mean, they've done no work in the past sort of twelve months
Mm.
or nearly twelve months, and they're not trying because whatever people say, they do, the works there.
Mm.
You've only got to go to the Job Centre and see all the jobs.
Mummy.
I mean
Yeah.
Yeah.
.
Yeah, that's not bad.
Right, erm, mum
Yeah.
Do you know with this model,those paints  with got to get it done by this Friday .
Alright, I'll try and sort something out tomorrow.
Ok.
Ok, only I haven't got time today, if we can do the  that today look, might as well get done really.
It is, it is a bit more complicated than that,
Mm.
in that er, some people would like to work, but the level, the amount of money they need coming in, is not in line with the amount they can realistically expect to earn, and that's a difficult situation.
Yeah, but then they've got to adjust their life style.
Mm, erm, yeah, you can't adjust your life style by killing a couple of kids,
Oh no ,
that's the only problem , if you've got a large family and you've had a well paid job and then you loose it
yeah
erm, and you're not likely to be able to get into that line of work again
Mm.
it, it can be quite difficult,
Mm.
but there are, what there wasn't before, that there is now is these, erm 
But, then, as I say , if you've got a fam if you, if you can get a job  and you, you, it's their just life style adjusting.
well no, because what you can do know is you can go to somebody who will sit down with a mini computer and that's what you need, a mini computer and will sit down and will look at a job and will say right, if you take this job, it can also claim Family Credit of so much, and, and they actually do a, a sort of alternative benefit calculation, and what they do is they look at, if you take this job and take all the other things into account, will you be better off?
Mm.
Mm.
And they'll actually sit down and work that out for people and encourage them to go for a job and give them all the forms they need to claim Family Credit or whatever.
Well that's what I was gonna say, if the system works properly there's no way.
But sometimes people fall through the cracks
Mm.
and if, you can actually have somebody go, who's interested in going for a job, and when you do that sort of calculation they end up they're gonna be worse off.
Yeah.
And that shouldn't be allowed to happen, but it does.
Yeah.
Because it doesn't su , it doesn't match the whole, there, there are holes in it .
Yeah, so, so what happens then if they say I'm not even going to that interview then because I couldn't live on it, even with all the other benefits, what happens then?
Right, erm
See this is it, they get punished then, don't they, for not  for not trying.
Well, erm, as I understand it er calculations for  in work benefit at erm, by somebody who's separate from the normal benefit section
Mm.
and I don't think they, they will pass on information about somebody actually refusing to take a job
Because of the pay.
because of the pay.
Oh 
But, the system ought to be water tight, so that people are better off
Mm.
but the trouble is it's so complicated there are always exceptions and problems that cause
Yeah, but I mean, be honest, you, you say that, but people have got to be prepared to adjust as well.
Oh yeah.
Because you say someone with a large family and they need a lot of money, you see someone with a large family
Yeah,.
Child Benefit or something like that
Mm, mm.
and they're not given a large amount of money
No.
and there's somebody else saying oh I need five hundred pounds a month more than that, to live  and you think well, hang on
Well.
You, know, if, if these two people with the same number of kids can live for this
yeah
why should this person need five hundred pound a month more.
What you've got to take into account is that, an all, there's an awful lot of things that you get when your unemployed that stop when you find a job.
Oh yeah, cos I mean I know they pay mortgage for you, well not mortgage, but interest on your mortgage.
Interest on mortgage, yeah.
So you've certainly got to erm start paying the mortgage again.
mm.
Also if you're in rented accommodation you're claiming housing benefit, you'll probably haven't got to pay any rent, specially if it's Council there's relief, relief from paying 
Provided, if your pay is that low .
community charge, which you don't get any more once you start working.
Well you do.
Well
Depending on your circumstances 
it depend, it depending on your circumstances, yeah.
That's what I'm saying you'll still get people who, they don't qualify for any of these benefits  
Yeah .
because of what they're earning
Mm.
and they're still saying they're not getting enough
Mm.
those are the people who need to adjust what, how they're living and they don't.
Mm.
They've got a big car, they've got a big house
Yeah.
you know, say to them buy a smaller house and Phrr, you know you'd never
Mm.
never hear the end of it.
Erm.
I mean it was like Deborah and Dave, can you remember?
I believe, ah , I believe the D S S do look at the situation, but they, before, yeah ,
Do you remember Deborah and Dave?,
before they actually suggest to somebody that they sell a house, that they sell a house and moved to a smaller one, they have to be unemployed for quite some time.
yeah, but I mean they just desperately wanted to get away from Bristol
Mm.
because of what happened with the accident
Yeah.
what have you, and they moved from that really nice house
Mm.
that they had
Yeah.
and that was Deborah's mother's house, that was where Deborah was brought up and where I used to go and play with her when we were little
Mm.
and of course her mum moved to Cornwall and Deborah bought the house of off her, a bit cheaper than they would have bought on the  they moved down to Cornwall and they bought a much smaller house, much, much smaller.
Mm.
I mean she had three or four children
Yeah.
so she's still needed, I think she bought a three bedroomed house which meant she had two girls  two girls and a boy, she had three children.
Aha.
No two boys and a girl, so it meant that two boys have to share a bedroom which they weren't doing in that other house  and David's been unemployed well
Mm.
I say, they did just that, they sold up, moved down to Cornwall where her mum lives and bought a much smaller place.
Yeah.
D S S don't help with the mortgage, at the first I think it's ten weeks as well, but I think  help with the mortgage at all .
Yeah.
Unless people are insured for that sort of period in time any way.
, yeah are we?
I don't think we are.
No, because of the type of job.
Yeah.
Oh, I don't know if we would be.
I don't know, but it's, I don't know I, it's a very difficult sort of situation where you get, there are so many things to look into, and it's not being done well enough
Mm.
basically.
It's very, very complicated.
Mm, it is, but it's still not being done well as
There's no way it should be that complicated  a lot of the problems are caused by the rules being so complicated that you have to be working in that particular field
Mm.
with two or three years before you really know what's going on
Mm.
and in Avon we've got erm  we've got a large turn over of staff
Yeah.
people don't stay out long, so you don't get many people getting up to two or three years experience, the one's that stay on that long stay 
Oh yeah , they, they're very good.
They're, and they're very good and they, they tend to stay a long time.
Yeah.
But then they tend to get promoted and move on to other things.
Yeah, but I, I think the reason I feel a bit bitter about it is living round here, you see all the dirties and the scruffies, you get annoyed, absolute no order, they've crawled into the system right up to and doing openly in front of you
Yeah, mm.
and you think well to hell with it, they should be, come down on hard.
Mm.
You, you know, you 
Yeah ,
just see them all getting away with it and they makes me thing something ought to be done, which has the people that lose out or the people who go in there very politely, fill out their claim
mm.
suffered at home and because of all the dirties and scruffies making a fuss they don't get attended to properly
Mm.
and that's what makes me evil, that's why I say I'd moved heaven and earth for someone who's nice
Yeah.
and  for someone who's not.
Mm.
Because you know dam well that those people, the ones that are not and are making the fuss are probably the ones that lead, need the money least.
Yeah.
Cos er, somebody I can think off with a, not a million miles from here is working and claiming
Mm.
I know that  I mean he's actually thick enough to go up there and sign on in his overalls.
Mm.
Then he says, oh he's working on cars for the family, ha, ha, ha, ha.
Mm.
You know, and you, you know dam well he's, he's defrauded the system.
Yeah.
When, and he'll be the one going up there shouting.
Somebody like Hilary
Mm.
that needs all the help she can get goes up there and
Mm.
gets little  You know it just doesn't seem right at all.
Mm.
Erm  I wouldn't  there are ten per cent, well perhaps less than ten per cent who are absolute loonies.
Yeah.
Erm, but an awful lot of people who would go up and make a fuss  may not get this, the same level of services erm, somebody who went up there and was nice.
Mm.
They might get less.
Yeah, perhaps it's just that I know some of the loonies that go up there and get what they want every time.
Well.
.
The thing is you have to look at your source of information for that.
Yeah.
They might think they're getting away with it, a lot of people who, who, I mean being unemployed isn't, you tend, people tend to feel devalued and so if they can think oh, they've put one over on that, on the er, benefit office, then they'll go and brag down the pub about it.
Yeah.
Whereas in actual fact if they come in very nicely and ask very nicely, they might have got more than they actually got here when they came in shouting and yelling.
Mm, yeah.
, but then, when you come to the lunatic fringe  then supervisor's will cut an awful lot of corners to prevent them busting up the office or punching somebody in the nose, a real, I don't mean people who are just stroppy, I mean the real lunatic .
Yeah, yeah, big red L written on their claim.
.
, I know, ha, ha, I can sue you, you take care.
Yeah, I mean there are some virile people who are mentally sub normal.
Oh yeah.
There are people who are mentally ill, for one reason or another, there are people on drugs, there are people who are alcoholics and when those people come in, in that state, you minimize the areas of confrontation.
So when you say to them sorry you don't get any money because they're not entitled to it what happens then?
Well there's only one thing you can do any way.
Yeah.
You see the  it's gonna happen eventually with all these people, there's gonna come a time where's something gonna happen that they're not gonna like
Mm.
you know,
Mm.
erm, as long as, cos they can only claim benefit for a certain length of time can't they?, then it switches from unemployment to Social Security .
Income Support , yeah, but Income Support, paid indefinitely.
Yeah, yeah.
And Income Support is a lot more than Unemployment Benefit anyway.
It is, is it?
Yeah.
Oh, I didn't think it was.
Yeah, Unemployment Benefit is only forty one quid a week.
Oh.
Or sixty five if you're claiming for a wife,, what good is that?
Well, you said what good is that, it's more than mum and dad's er pension  it's more than dad's pension
Ah, yeah.
and he's claimed .
I don't think you've got that right somehow, there's no way, that retirement pension will be less than Income Benefit, it's always a bit more.
Well, it works out
that's based on National Insurance Contributions.
No.
And dad's in receipt of a, in receipt of a full pension.
Yeah.
Right, he's getting more than sixty, sixty five quid a week.
Yeah, but it's not a lot more.
Ok, it might not be a lot more, it might be seventy.
Mm, yeah.
But it's always a bit more.
Mm.
Because they
They ought to be a lot more that's the thing.
because people who are signing on will er, well,pe he's, he could still claim Income Support.
He can't.
He's got too much money coming in then.
Yeah, cos he's got a private pension of one hundred pounds a month as well.
Yeah.
Cos they get hardly any rent rebate now, hardly any oh, but, well, Poll Tax, they pay nineteen pounds each
Yeah.
which is practically the same as were paying.
It is the same.
Yeah,, they get no relief there, no relief any where else.
Mm.
I mean, I be honest I don't know how they do it, because I do know what they've got coming in
Mm.
I mean they've got their old age pension and dad's private pension and that's it.
Erm, I don't know how they live, yet they always seemed to have enough money  you know.
They get help with the rent?
About one pound odd a week.
Rene said they're twenty four pound a week.
Yeah 
They get practically no help at all and yet mum still manages to sort of save a bit 
Yeah.
and I think well where are they going short, because they must be.
Mm, it's a thought, they seemed to be able to manage ok.
Yeah.
I mean, were, were be in a totally different situation.
Yeah, but then we've got three hundred pound mortgage, which they haven't got, I mean we've got different circumstances.
Yeah, but, we will be totally different situation .
Oh yeah, when , when we retire.
Cos we'll end up with no mortgage, we'll get I don't, I don't know, if I , I must admit I rather fancy the erm, the old er  the erm, a re-employed pensioner, I don't know.
.
It's quite a good one.
What going down to E.O.
Well I can work till I'm sixty two as an E.O.
Yeah.
Or Sixty as an H.E.O.
Would you want to?
What, you could then do which I think would probably help, cos you see you don't get State Retirement Pension till you're sixty five
Yeah.
but what I, what would be a possibility at sixty two, when I'm at that point, I'd be receiving half pay
Yeah.
as a pension, so if I'd retired at that point, and then worked part time
Yeah.
to keep your green matter in the wear
Yeah, yeah.
As an A O somewhere.
Yeah.
So I'll reach State Retirement Age we can, end up with virtually full pay.
Yeah,
When I've, I've got 
that's if I was still working.
I'd be working part time for full pay , if you see what I mean
Yeah, yeah.
and then at retirement age I would continue to receive half pay plus retirement pen State Retirement Pension
Mm.
which be, at the equivalent of about seventy quid a week as well.
Yeah, I h , I honestly think though that when erm  I don't know, you see, cos I, I's been saying oh when I get a chance I'll get a transfer out of my office
Mm.
because of they way it's run
Mm.
but they way it is at the moment, with me able to use the car for work
Mm, mm.
and things, you think is it worth it because the car would be sat out here, if, if say, say I transferred and still did three days but did it when you work
Mm, yeah
in the building you work in
Mm.
I wouldn't be able to use my car
No.
so, I'd have to pay bus fare
Mm.
so I'd be paying, we'd be paying for our petrol which wouldn't be a lot different to what it is now really 
No ,
a bit, two or three pounds a week perhaps
mm.
and I'd be paying a lot more in bus fare
Mm.
plus you haven't got the convenience of being able to go and get in your car
Yeah, cos standing about waiting for buses is not fun.
No, you know, if I could work somewhere in an office where I could use my car
Mm.
then that would be great
Mm.
but you'd want to be able to know that you can  I don't know, I mean, I , I think, with, with the place I am now  I just don't know what to make of it really
No, I think the thing is, is once you, this is gonna sound awful, but once you've done your time and you know as much or more, then you're E O  then you're gonna be left alone to get on with your job.
What do you mean love, we've always been left alone to get 
Yeah ,
on with the job.
what I mean is, that you're not gonna have, erm  you're not gonna have interference like you had lately, ya, not gonna have comments like you had lately.
Huh, there'll always be 
And , and you feel, comfortable with what you're doing, you won't have to erm, you won't have to worry about the work, if you know what I mean, you'll know how to do it.
Yeah.
Once you've got that, I, I think you might well fined that it's quite nice and comfortable to stay there.
Yeah, well this is it, I think 
Rather than, rather than face moving into Benefit where it is very fraught at times and in a situa , and coping with that as well as not knowing what you doing isn't nice.
You, you say it's very fraught in Benefit at times, I don't think you appreciate what I do,
right, you are very busy
no, when you get someone's relative phoning up because they've just been crushed under a lump of machinery, that's is very fraught.
Yeah.
Having to deal with that person
Mm.
why aren't you prosecuting the company because my son has just been killed
Yeah.
and who has to deal with it, da da.
Yeah.
Not, you know, the inspector's are out, where you can't reached them on the phone.
You've never talked about that before.
Oh no, no it happens.
Mm.
Quite a bit.
And that's, that's on a par with the sort of problem we get in benefit
Mm.
and somebody comes in, Aunt Maud has just died, what do I do?
Yeah, yeah.
You think, oh , and it 
Yeah, but , the thing is with that it's very different because,, it's not your fault
Ok, erm.
erm they're not coming to you and saying, my wife has been killed why aren't you doing anything about it,
No.
they're coming to you and saying my wife has been killed please can you help me which is 
My kid ,
is different.
They're coming to you asking for help
yeah, yeah.
whereas they're coming to us and blaming you
Mm, yeah.
you know
Yeah .
For doing nothing, which is
Yeah.
you know, if the help and safety executive had done this, this and insured that this was right and that was right
Mm.
this wouldn't have happened.
Yeah.
You know, that's a bit different to my wife has died please can you help me 
Yeah , yeah,
sort things out.
another scenario that comes up quite often is that, somebody comes in and say my kids haven't had any food all over the weekend because you didn't send out a giro 
Yeah.
that be a 
Yeah, but mine  they're lying instead.
, well you,
.
you won't  sometimes.
Yes, that means
Yeah, but
my kids haven't had any food all weekend that I've paid for because you didn't send me my giro, they've had their meals because they've been round there at grandma's, but I'm not telling you that, yeah, you know.
Yeah.
I went down the pub on Saturday and drank it, all the rest of my benefit.
Yeah, quite.
But, that's, that's what you're faced with sometimes.
Yeah, I mean.
But, yeah, I mean
I mean we get it as well, it's not, you so sort of say oh my jobs a cosy little job, but it's not that cosy believe me, you get put in some very awkward situations .
no, I didn't, I didn't want to say that.
No.
I didn't want to say that because I didn't, I don't think it is a cosy little job
Mm.
especially with the management's support you get.
Well we don't get any.
That's what I meant .
From the management we get positive hinderance not support.
, yeah, that's what I meant.
I mean, my immediate management,, now in, in a crisis she's brilliant, you see, I, I don't know whether this with this the other day, whether she didn't  go to see Paul to see what I'd say
Mm.
because I'd said this, and I don't know whether she was sussing me out
Mm.
a bit as well, cos I've, I've said that, he's said something to me  and,
Ok.
and I don't know whether she took me down to see him to see if I'd backed down
Yeah.
and I didn't, because he said it.
Mm, yeah.
And I think she was 
No, I ,
quite pleased with me cos she said, don't get irate, don't get upset, and I didn't.
no.
I talked him down at one point
Mm.
cos he kept doing it to me so I did it to him.
Mm.
He wouldn't let me say something and I tried about three times and in the end I just kept talking,
Mm.
it was a case of you stop, let .
Mm.
But I don't know anybody in there who hasn't had a really good shout at him at some point, and that's all, that's including A O's
Mm.
you know, and when Ah 
Yeah , the one thing you have got there is that people are prepared to take him on.
Yeah, they are, Julie will
Mm, whereas, if you 
and Joyce definitely will .
yeah, whereas if you had the situation where people weren't prepared to take him on, it could be awful
Yeah.
you have people leaving hand over fist.
They have now.
Mm.
I mean they've got a job to keep people.
Mm.
Since I've been there, they've had.
Yeah.
I think A.O's, they, they, the A O's tend to stay
Does they tend to have more gumption, they tend to have to stand up to him in the end .
yeah .
Yeah.
But the A O's don't, they've had one, two  they've had one new A A to date
Mm.
in the twelve month's I've been there, just one, and we've had three leave.
Yeah 
You know
Yeah 
I, I don't know it  cos he, he sort of says all this, that we, were very good to people you know, great flexibility and all this 
.
oh yes, you get a hospital appointment then you have the time off it, that's it, they'll 
,
move heaven and earth, you know
so what
so what
.
quite.
If you have a pre he's actually said to me if you have a problem I will listen and I will help you, so there's me going to him and saying look due to a misunderstanding I have a problem and this one saying tough
Yeah.
you know  but it wasn't any misunderstanding either, he said something
Mm.
and now the chips are down and I'm calling on him to do what he said, he's not prepared to
No.
that's what it boils down to, there's no misunderstanding it's him.
Mm.
Him, he, he wanted someone to work there desperately
Yeah.
I was there, I was prepared to do it
Yeah.
and he wanted me
Yeah.
so he offered me the moon to get me
Yeah.
having got me
Yeah, he then starts trying to take it back
yeah, and he's not going to.
No.
So .
He didn't exactly offer you the moon anyway
Well no,
no
But he was prepared to negotiate on something which now he's saying he didn't negotiate.
Yeah, that's right, what, no, he's not saying erm, he's not prepared to negotiate any more
Mm.
he's saying he didn't say it in the first place .
First place , yeah.
He's also saying, but now I have a more responsible job, therefore I have to be in  time, five minutes after him, not good enough.
Mm, yeah.
You know  and, as I say with my partner  I haven't mentioned it yet, this business about cover
Mm.
but it annoys me that, why, you see, I'm, I'm asking for cover for technical half an hour in the morning
Yeah.
Possibly fifty five minutes.
Mm.
Somebody has to cover our group from half past three till five
Mm.
during the week.
Well that's not  time, so it doesn't matter.
No, when your partner 
This,
goes home early 
it's, it's a question it's not a question of cover, and it's not a question of erm efficiency it's a question of small mindedness.
Yes, luckily he's gonna look at all my flexi .
Mm.
The one that's been really bad, is the one that I'm still doing, they can't see that.
Ah, right.
Yeah.
I looked at the other day and I was thinking oh god, I want to go to sleep a couple of days last, you know
Mm.
five minutes, ten minutes, and I was thinking erm,the car broke down
Mm.
well that's all the sheet I'm doing now
Mm.
so he won't see that one.
No.
Keen she is
She is in't she?
.
Got my house keys?
It's up there, I saw it on the door last night.
Oh, was it late?
no .
Oh where is it, this side or the other side?
Erm
The passenger, yeah, grandma.
Just getting used to this damn er choke again
.
No.
They'll service it, and it'll 
They'll service it ,
be all different again.
such a pain, it really is.
I  seemed to do anything to the car, mind with the water pump I think they check, they have to er adjust the timing.
Mm, mm.
When they er put the new pump in, but it is such a nuisance.
You've got to push the choke in now as far as it'll go.
Oh.
The only thing is then you'll run, when you stop and take your foot off the accelerator you risk stopping.
Yeah.
you'll have to give it as little as it you know
Mm.
It seems to be much more sensitive to too much choke.
Yeah, it floods very easily.
Yeah 
Pick, are you gonna pick her up at quarter past,quar , er seven o'clock is it?
Yeah, erm
Okay.
So you could, explain sort of why.
Yeah.
See you later.
Bye.
Be a good girl 
Hello Tony, was Christine okay?
Hello , yeah.
We'll drop her back.
Well we can, we can 
Unless you want her earlier ,
pick her up about seven.
yeah that's fine .
Okay , cos were going out, so we can pick her up on the way out, about seven?
Okay , yeah, is that alright?.
Yeah, that's fine ,
I'm gonna drop the other's back at seven
oh.
We've got Charmaine and  Charlotte, we don't know if Becky's coming round, we've got a video.
Oh, right.
Okay?
Erm.
It's, it's up to you, if you, if you like us to drop her back first at seven
Erm
or we'll hang on until you call for her and then I'll pop these back home, I don't mind, whichever.
Erm.
Or she can stay later it's, it's entirely up to you.
No, were actually going out at seven
You take her out 
I mean, you, were take Christine, yeah.
Yeah.
Erm.
, er, we'll, we'll, we'll pick her up at seven .
okay
Okay.
See you later
See you later then.
Okay?
Yeah, Lorraine was saying oh we can bring her back about seven.
You say we were on our way out any way .
And I said well were on our way out so she said alright, were hang on and wait for you to arrive at seven and then I'll take the rest back.
Oh the rest, how many has she got there?
I don't know.
I think Becky, I think Charmaine is going, is there as well, so, she's gonna have a house full and they're all gonna sit and watch a video.
going back.
God.
Yeah, brave lady.
Oh my, must admit, gets a bit much of it you know.
.
But then I suppose.
Mm.
Oh I wish we could get all that grass cut, oh.
Yeah, I can't do it can we?
No.
We've had a real sort of little  later you know.
Yeah.
It'll be ideal to do it, but you, actually say you just can't do it all.
Mm 
I suppose being realistic we could clean the car out in the evening because you only got to have the door open you've got the interior light on
Yeah.
you know.
Yeah, you can't clean the outside of the car by the interior light.
Yeah, but then we'll do that in the car wash then .
Yeah 
see it's busy on a Sunday.
Yeah.
I wonder actually if their car wash is open 
Oh, we'll have a look 
Yes, the garage is .
Yeah there's somebody in there now  I'll go and get the ticket.
Get the wax one as well, that'll give some protection as well .
Okay  Wax or hot wax?
Erm, what do you think?
Which is 
That's the hot wax.
What do you think?
We can try that.
Wax, yeah.
Okay  Hello, can I have a three pound fifty car wash please.
There's been .
.
Thank you..
.
There we go.
Thank you.
.
Bye.
You haven't  got the dry on it as well?
Yeah 
It'll give it some form of protection which we haven't got round to doing the erm  oh
Silicone.
yeah.
Yeah.
I mean it says it lasts up to two years, we've only had it on there a year
Yeah.
it's just over a year, so that's .
It all helps if you start the engine.
Right, I'd better go and push the ticket in hadn't I?
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
And I've got our aeriel down.
We'll still have to do all round the doors, round the you know.
Yeah.
Not a bumper, all over, number plate, on the front.
The number plate's only hanging on  by one screw .
God.
Every time I come up here I think is the  alright, that one.
It was broken when we bought the car.
Yeah.
It's done well to stay on two and a half years really.
Yeah.? 1 e
I'm interested to see what it's gonna do for a hot wax if you see what I mean?
Yeah 
Or at least, wow.
What?
I've got a little pool down here.
down there, on the inside, yes.
Yes.
Well it is a bit excessive isn't it?
Yeah .
It's not erm  well where was the hot wax?we just had an ordinary wash  go and ask her, say you asked for  how much did you pay?
I had the right card, it was the card number five which was for the hot wash as, hot wax as well.
Well it's, we've just had an ordinary wash  haven't we?
I don't know, they might 
I don't exactly feel as if we'd had our monies worth there.
Oh, mm, I don't, I don't really know what the hot wax does.
Oh no, it does feel.
It's probably different.
It, it's, no, no .
Different stuff is put on it.
Yeah, there's something, it feels erm.
Feels waxy?
This one's cheaper than the er
Sorry.
This one is cheaper
What than the erm.
than the one at the Longwell Green.
Yeah, it's had something, look it wouldn't of.
Mm.
Yes, it's had something, look at the paint work.
Yeah, it's good, in it?
It was probably erm the shampoo and what have you it's  in 
Yeah .
together   I'm sorry.
It's alright.
Jumping off the clutch there.
, I'm a past master at that  
Going a bit quickly.
What's going a bit quickly?
That police car.
Ah.
Wasn't screaming, just that it's , the eh, getting there.
Mm.
Don't you start.
.
I know how easy it is to do that, coming up there.
Coming up there, yes, quite er, quite tricky.
Thanks for a paying to have it washed like that, cos it 
That's alright .
saves an awful lot of time with us.
Saves a lot of work don't it, a lot of time 
I want to check the tyres and that as well.
Mm, mm.
Cos we haven't had for any actual air in it for ages.
Mm.
I'm sure they must need er  a little bit.
Yeah 
And we've got plenty of time now to erm do the hoovering and what have you.
Mm.
Brian had a little panic before my test.
Why?
He had a back light go.
Oh no.
Break light.
Well, having said that
He had a spare.
he did?
Yeah.
When did it go?
While he was fitting it, while I was coming out of door to stop my test to start 
Oh  .
on my er lesson before my test, and he said just push the brake down a minute and I did and he said oh, you try it again, yeah, oh, hang on a minute, he fiddled about some more and he said right now do it again  ah right that's working now .
Phew we.
And I was thinking oh god.
Did the examiner check your break lights and indicator's though.
No.
No,.
No.
.
The only the thing is there do, erm there's a parking light on Brian's
Yeah.
and he said, do you normally have a light down there?
And I said er  only when I'm parked.
What did he say?
And he said er, mm, would you er, would you just, erm, don't raise the clutch just put the car into first gear a minute.
Put it into first gear and he said, and the light went out, he said oh yes that's fine.
I wouldn't bother with that if I were you, we're gonna be hoovering it and cleaning it aren't we.
Oh yeah course we are , yeah, okay.
Yep.
I'm gonna be ashamed of driving it again now, I was getting to a point where I was thinking oh my god, Christine came out in black all along here she said, er what's that?
I said dirt .
.
Right, have you locked it all?
Yes I think so.
Okay, well we'll lock it.
I never leave it unlocked.
No, but 
Right then we want the hoover, we've got a patch of  to do.
Aha.
About that big, it's not a small patch.
You know where the door frame goes round and the door fits into it?
Mm, mm.
Somebody's obviously tipped the edge
Ah.
and it's gone un-noticed so far.
Of course after Christmas some time we've got to find erm the money for the rust round the
Yeah.
window.
Yeah.
And that must be checked.
Mm, mm.
Because otherwise were gonna be erm dead trouble.
Hello Ben.
Hello Ben, hello, hello, hello, hello, hello, oh eh.
Erm, right.
There we go.
You haven't got it tucked in 
Do you want a cup of tea?
Yeah that'll be good.
And a bowl.
Mm, mm.
And .
Keep that  or.
I wouldn't .
What you gonna do with these?
Keep them.
Okay.
Well,.
How did those get started?.
Oh, that was, we opened those  last night.
We did.
Oh those are a bit hard.
Yeah, okay.
.
What do you want in your roll then?
You've got a big choice haven't you?
Cheese or cheese.
Or Tuna.
I wouldn't mind some cheese.
Cheese.
Do you want?
No, I'll have some cheese and Marmite.
Right 
These cheese slices are quite good actually aren't they?
Yeah, they're nice.
There we are.
Have we got any .
Is Christine having tea over at er Amanda's?
Erm, I, well, that was the general idea.
Right.
But I don't know really what's happening, if she hadn't had anything she'll have something when she comes back.
Yeah, okay.
Remind the  over there.
Mm, mm.
If her mum's got five hundred  there, I don't know whether she'll want them or
No.
stay for tea .
Yeah I was a bit annoyed with my   Oh crikey.
See, they haven't actually send me a statement, that's  see what I mean 
Mm 
That's why I have to keep an eye on it cos that blind and that, but it won't come yet, it wouldn't have been on that, that was priced it  .
That was probably why you haven't got anything else on it.
Yeah.
I bet they have a few Sony Walkman's disappear.
Yes, sod that.
I might send away for that  last one.
.
It's quite nice, it's sort of got  .
Oh yeah , it's got a group of pleats and then a gap and then a group of pleats, mm.
pleats,.
. I think it's too late to order today but I'll have look through those leaflets.
Mm, mm.
.
Mm, china  china nativity plate.
Oh they do have some rubbish.
Complete with stand, musical nativity advent calendar, plays silent night.
Oh.
Oh dear.
We all  
yeah  You want marmite on your
Yes please.
Do you want lot's of marmite, little bit of marmite.
Lot's of marmite.
Right.
Don't spread it like putty you know, but, quite a lot I like to be able to taste it where Christine just likes the flavour if you know what I mean.
Mm  I know why he's not happy.
Why?
Well his box is down there innit?
Yeah.
He's thinking they're gonna go and leave me again.
He's right, but not for a little while.
Tell  Tony's gonna leave but actually  has a go at me as well.
Oh yeah.
a couple of times we went up there with er jogging.
Mm, mm.
He did nothing but sniff and sniff and sniff when we came back.
Yeah.
Now he's got to get used to another dog.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah.
He thinks oh not again.
What crisps would you like?
Er  what we got?
There is a packet of cheese one's
Mm, mm.
or skips or disco's?
Can I have the McCoy's?
Okay I'll have the crisps then.
Do you mind?
No.
Seriously.
Yes, but never mind.
, tough, you had the last cheese packet .
My turn.
I mind seriously but never mind.
Actually I should leave that stuff .
Yeah, okay 
I must admit I won't be terrible sorry if you don't see this it is a bit naff.
Yeah, it is a bit innit?
Determined he's gonna have what's in that bucket isn't he?
looks so matted and knotted up, you can't ever imagine him being
No.
able to be  .
I'll er, get us a cup of tea.
Okay?
Yes.
Now I have to put you first on the list instead of me.
Stay then.
Why cos I went wow?
No you said what you're doing?
You you spent first and then
Have you got your door keys?
And they'll have great difficulty telling your voice and mine apart won't they?
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Great difficulty.),
I
Oh you unlocked it?
Sorry?
You unlocked it?
Yes.
I had my key.
Thank you.
No.
What?
They certainly whizz through here don't they?
Ha ha ha!
Didn't they get the passport  Christine's not here.
No.
I haven't got the aerial up after all that I .
I was trying to get the key out the aerial and it wouldn't come out.
Funny .
Yeah.
And a car was approaching.
It made my   one minute I thought help!
Look.
Sorry.
That's all right.
What you doing?
You can't see surely.
I can write in the dark  I can't read it but I can write it.
Huh  Ah!
Oh come on    till we get past it and turn around.
Yeah.
Are there head lights coming round there or not?
Headlight?
I don't know that they're coming round.
Yeah I know.
Don't 
No.
I hate this junction.
Yeah
Absolutely  him.
Yes horrible place to get round.
There's always that van parked on the corner.
Yeah.
And it's blind cause of all the bushes the other side.
Mm.
And you're always on the wrong side of the road  which doesn't help  Well he didn't expect that .
Did you see?
Yes I did.
Ooh.
That was close.
Whip round there a bit quick.
Goodness what a funny trailer 
Mm.
God the steering's a bit better.
Now that er
Firmed up the tyres.
Firmed up the tyres a little bit.
Oh!
It always feels very well not very slightly different to driver when you pump the tyres up.
When they needed it you know?
Hm.
Yeah.
Cause the front tyres tend to go down more because they're carrying more weight.
They've got the engine.
Mm.
Yeah.
They're also pulled about more aren't they?
Well it's front wheel drive car so
Yeah.
And how long it will be before she says Dad do you think you could put the radio on.
Yeah but some get in front of him  Thank you.
Okay?
We would've dropped her back.
Yeah they know that so erm not to worry.
You drive the car anyway.
It's kind of you anyway.
Okay?
You didn't bring  with you did you?
No.
Thanks very much.
It's all  over for you.
You'll probably see her in the morning.
Yeah?
Yeah.
Seems like it.
Bye bye then.
Cheers.
Bye.ep
murder inside
Oh wow!
two men like and you pull out this paper on the spot  Murderer and er judge.
If the judge
and the murderer's got to wander round and kill someone
and kill the judge
and the mystery is no points who it is.
If the judge doesn't get killed then erm  they  then the judge got to go around asking pe people questions.
Oh.
Great!
How many were there?
Only erm
There was Charmaine 
Charlotte Charmaine 
Oh no Becky?
No Becky was gone.
And we watched Home Alone.
Oh! was it good?
Yeah.
It was brilliant!
He had this trick and he had a blow torch and he burned off all this blokes hair.
It was funny.
He had a blow torch Mum you as he opened the door and the blow torch flicked off something.
I don't know what it was and erm and the blow torch went off.
Oh wow!
It burned all the top of his head and he hung a hot thing over the handle on the door -front door and so he put his hand on the handle and there was piece of skin it was all burned off
Oh no!
Uh 
In a circle 
This steering is much lighter.
Is it?
Yeah I'll tell you what it is.
You know a lot of these big cars with really wide wheels.
Yeah.
They've got some of them have got power assisted steering.
Yeah.
And if just blowing up the tyres means you have a tiny bit more thre er tread on the road and it is a tiny bit.
Uh huh.
Then  if it makes this much difference
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
I can see why with big wide wheels some cars 
You need 
would need it.
Power assisted steering yes.
Yeah.
It must feel strange though.
Well no because it's still responds to you  you know?
Yeah 
forty mile an hour zone.
And he just gone parked behind a bike with no lights.
No he's got lights but they're er
Flashing.
Flickering.
Oh no that's
That's supposed to be like that?
They're supposed to be yeah.
That's good actually because I saw that from a long way off and I thought what is it?
I thought it was a  they are good.
Hm.
Makes you notice them doesn't it?
Yep.
Very much so.
Had that been a steady red light it wouldn't have been anywhere near as noticeable 
Noticeable no.
Mum when we  Murder in the Dark Amanda was  dump me and you're supposed to sort of do that isn't that right?
Yeah
Just sort of hit them?
And I felt  and I said I did not kill her and I was the murderer and Shameer said check  hit me but she didn't it felt like a hit and you don't accidentally do that do you?
Well if it was dark and she couldn't see you she might have put her arm out and hit you it doesn't  what it feels like isn't always what it is if you see what I mean.
You could see a little bit  but not much.
But it it was like it wasn't like a tap  wasn't.
We reckon it was that.
Uh huh.
And she said she hit me with her elbow and it wasn't it.
Well it might have been her elbow Christine you mustn't be
It wasn't there you could tell it was 
All you could feel was that it was something bony.
Now be fair.
It was bony and  
All right.
I'd better write that down or I'll never remember it  specially with er what comes next?
Yeah.
From one to the other.
Hello.
All right 
Hello 
Hello 
All right.
How are you?
All right thanks.
That's good then all right?
Yes
That's nice.
That'll be a bit crispy that bit.
Oh it's you causing a  again is there?
Yeah
Oh dear.
I don't know .
How are are .
Everybody all right?
Is it going all right?
Fine thanks.
Yeah.
You're early so no excuse.
How are you?
I'm fine thanks.
Oh that's good.
Yeah.
Gonna be doing a course next week.
Erm Monday to Friday.
I'm running a course.
Yeah.
It's a five day course.
By Friday I'll be on my knees.
Oh.
Is it a stiff one?
Well it's hard doing five days in a row like that.
Cause you're talking and explaining things all the time and 
Better not lose your voice then.
In the lun no that's right  and in the lunch hour and things
Yeah
You don't really get a break because you're getting ready for the afternoon.
Yeah 
Yeah 
So you don't really get any break at all but on a
Looking forward to it?
Yeah it'll be good.
It done I did it once before .
Where is it?
It's in Nelson Street and er I did it I've done it once on my own like this before.
It's what?
No Bristol.
In Bristol .
Yeah it is.
It was the way 
Hm.
You went to Sheffield and 
Yeah that's right.
Sheffield.
Yes I went to Sheffield.
Yeah what I was going to say to you the only thing is will you put a plug up.
There's not a plug on up.
I come up and put em up.
I don't know how to put a plug up.
Oh come on Mum decorate your 
All right then.
If you don't decorate it up like she got her own decorations 
She's got all all her decorations up
erm a hundred  like erm twenty erm  but Joe
Right.
do you remember we got a bet on?
But you wanted to go and see Jones now.
She's got a great big  outside on her slag over the windows and it's all lit up 
I got sixty two onions .
I been round there and got conkers
Tell her about Joan's going to be a grandma.
Oh yes Joan's gonna to be grandma .
Joan's going to be a grandma in June .
Becky.
Is Tony a ?
See who can get the trimmings up the  and who can put the most up.
Don't laugh.
I've got my nerve ever since the twenty eighth of 
Twenty eight of October.
October?
So Terry's going to board with stars now?
Yeah.
Stars?
The joker who's up today and she got this boy whose had this section 
Has she?
So so we know roughly going up to get  and make some stars and he's going to put chains and like all round these stars.
I have them up the front bedroom window .
Even Phil's going to be
You'll be able to see them two houses from a long way away.
Well yes.
Oh dear.
Ours is prettier isn't it?
How's school going then Christine?
All right my love?
Yep.
Do you like it?
Yep.
I've got to do 
What are you doing?
Anything  special for Christmas?
Doing anything special?
On Thursday we
They are doing a play.
Yeah.
But if you buy any more of  you'll blow up.
Will I see the great icing the great big father Christmas blow up one.
Oh yeah.
The only one 
Oh is he?
Oh that's great huh.
I going down again as father Christmas and she's  got one.
She's got what?
Yeah she got one 
Father Christmas on a step and a bleeding .
Iris wants to blow up one.
I want to blow up one now.
I'll get you one that's easy to blow up.
All right.
And then on top of it what was it?
I reckon we have to pay for it aren't you?
What?
Terry said we might go and get another set of outdoor lights because we can do with another set at the back.
Is  one?
Yeah.
But for now he's
No.
I've not got a proper Christmas tree out am I?
No you're not going to put a Christmas tree out.
he likes putting it up outside the front door and put these lights on it.
awful bad smells all septic.
Yes she's going to need 
Are you squeamish Jackie?
No.
What you been ?
What it ever since last August.
I've been treating it as a wart.
A wart?
A corn and I've been putting corn plasters on it
Hm.
but so I'm going to ring up tomorrow and see if I can see her.
Yeah
Otherwise it'll only get worse.
Now I've got one coming on the other toe.
The other side.
Oh no.
It's what but it's only very small at the moment like a dry skin.
Yeah.
But I can't rid of it.
I've been treating that since  I bought corn plasters 
Because it should have healed up by now.
Oh yeah all that time.
Definitely.
You're not putting anything 
No.
You need to have a tetanus injection.
So I don't go outside  by the time you've finished.
So yes.
You want to get down there don't you now?
Oh and Terry he might put a bloody great big sign up over bus.
Do you know what I mean?
About bus  lights on.
The travel one  and Yvonne's got hers up.
I've been over Yvonne's
Yeah
and expected she hadn't got as much as she
No I've been over Yvonne's and yeah I said to Yvonne I ain't got  she said you'd be bloody going  if you can't get  .
I said Terry's not going to complain about my 
Oh you ah!
Ha ha.
Are you feeling cornered Tony?
No..
We don't put up a lot of decorations around the place.
I like a really nice simple 
Yeah that's nice.
And we've got we got we've got 
We've got to have more than a hundred lights on the tree otherwise it's not properly lit.
No and we had to have what was it?
We haven't got a hundred and twenty and a hundred thirty and last year one of the sets which we've had since we got married  we couldn't them to go no matter what we tried.
ninety nine pence a set you've got to pay the VAT on top.
Do you 
No.
It's bound to be good.
They do everything.
I'll tell you what  it's Christmas  I'll tell you what.
Do you know  bike?
Yeah
I paid for that thirty two pounds.
Good grief.
You want to go down there .
If you spent more than fifty pounds
Yeah
You don't pay the V A T.
So you haven't got 
Oh right 
They've got
No no.
Have you got to have a er card to get in or 
No anybody can get in I mean and it's open seven days a week.
Wow where is it?
What?
You know where   er the swimming bath with  on it.
Speed boat 
No.
Samwell Swimming bath.
Samwell swimming bath's one of  moved  er
Yeah?
No.
Do you know where erm you know where the erm go over to er go over erm where the fire station is not the one that white white
Whitemore.
Do you know where the swin er fire station is 
Ah yeah.
Right.
Then you got the fire station
That's right.
Next to it.
No.
Next door to there was .
Turn down that side bit and it'll bring you to the swimming baths.
Turn and go past the swimming baths and take your first right and you're going more or less down to erm where that boy married what you 
Greenbanks
but as you go round you will see a sign Fancy Goods.
Yeah
It's in 
house 
It's a big verge.
You've got to follow the signs.
Go round into the Industrial Estate turn left your first left and right go right to the end and when you look right there's nothing 
There's nothing 
There's just the warehouse
But it is lovely inside
But it is absolutely stacked  all electrical appliances televisions videos all your Christmas trim trimmings and decorations
Hm hm
erm
And you haven't got to spend fifty pounds.
No 
All your Christma no you it's better to have it.
They do all kinds of cutlery plates and dinner sets.
There's nothing down there.
Stacks of toys
Our Dawn's got a set of lights for two ninety 
Two ninety five today.
They got the twenty there for er ninety nine pence.
the Father Christmas 
Hm.
They've got stacks of Christmas they got walkies they got everything.
they got tables they everything for your kids.
They got stacks and stacks of toys and a great big.
It's very 
And it's called Fancy Goods 
It's called Fancy Goods.
Right.
And they're open ten till five on a Sunday.
got to go round it.
I don't.
Is it the 
Yeah.
We'll find it.
You can't mistake it.
If you're turn if you go past the swimming baths just past swimming baths and the fork the fork there on your right you take that one.
Follow it around a bit this side you will see like a loads of cars.
Right?
And you'll a road going that way overlap 
And that 
It goes into an Industrial Estate
And that other place 
And that's the road your want 
Just a minute I can't visualise once you get to the swimming baths
Yeah
They do toys of course.
You can walk all round and have a look at the things and then go to the end and pay.
I took Herman over there.
He knows where it is.
Teddy bears from one fifty
well?
They got all sorts of video erm tapes.
A chocolate factory.
Yeah that makes me  
had a chocolate factory can't they?
No that could fall down 
It'll be great Tone
Hm mm
We can just zip round and pick your stuff up.
And come out on the end of
Christmas cards Christmas lights.
Yeah everything.
I can't tell you what they don't do.
Yeah
All these ornaments any ornaments for Christmas like you know
Hm mm
Say you wanted a bike.
I'll tell you what  pay twelve pounds
I want a poacher.
Poach eggs?
Save four pounds over there.
Shh
Don't I Lorn?
Yes lovey.
I do I want a poacher egg poacher
They does microwaves and all over there  You got  It varies from one week to the next what they got.
Yeah
They've got bikes
That's right yeah.
They must
It just snowballs
Yeah
And erm those.
I don't know whether you've ever seen them.
Have you seen those   and you've got like father Christmases in them.
Oh I know.
They're ninety nine pounds.
I got two I bought four today  thirty pounds each just about.
Even the winter times on it  come and have a look.
Yeah.
They're ninety nine pence and I paid thirty pence for four today.
You can buy a bag of six with a great big .
They're only three pounds a bag.
Loads and loads of dinners there.
I heard  I heard 
Loads and loads of tools.
Uh huh.
Hm.
Screw drivers erm
Yeah
Spanners sets everything.
They got electric .
The same electric trains there  thirty two.
Hm.
Clocks you know.
And they've got grandfather clocks and all over there.
It would be worth going and
Hm Yeah.
They've got  and  fifteen pence.
Anybody wanting for kids for little kids or something.
Oh I'll see if I could get ideas.
Yeah
Yeah.
And they're open seven days a week you say.
Seven days a week  morning.
Ah right.
And they're open for almost seven days yeah on Saturdays they're open I think  they don't open on the Sunday until ten o'clock.
Ah yes
Yeah
They got mirrors 
No no working during the week it's really useful to have a place that's open on a Sunday.
They've got tights in there this week they got underpants mens underpants in fact he bought .
They've got the women's fancy knickers over there and all in front
They've got all the  knickers.
It's so hot  women and  erm.
Some of the ones I passed were two or three pound they're only a pound over there.
It's probably 
Hm.
Yeah.
I'll find my way over there and perhaps you can come out 
That'll be nice.
On Monday or Tuesday.
You know wha they got.
I tell you what else.
You know these dances like  to music.
Yeah.
Now they're about twelve to fifteen pounds 
Oh day oh those are dear 
They're seven fifty in .
Now I tell what else we bought over there.
It's funny.
It's alarm clock but it's in the shape of er bomb.
Oh!
Right.
And it goes and when it goes off you have ten seconds to get up at night then 
Quickly 
And then he blasts off and he says we will try once more.
When he does that again but as he keeps doing it he gets louder and louder and the bang goes louder and louder.
Hm I'm glad you told me about that Lorna
I'll tell you what the old fashion alarm clocks they got.
Yeah.
And they're only one pound twenty five.
With the two old fashioned bells on the top.
the way I did now.
Because we'll have to get you an alarm clock won't we .
You won't have any money left 
Hm.
Yeah
Yeah.
Yeah what do you want to 
What?
Are you  Jackie.
Sorry?
Yeah.
There are nine  over there for a pack of twenty for about twenty five
Yeah.
Yeah we'll go over and have a look.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But that's the point 
His sister-in-law brought a cowboy down for him.
Hm?
Video tapes.
Hm that's good.
About twelve.
I'm not speaking to my sister-in-law no more .
Cowboy was on at half past two this morning.
Yeah.
Dad we'd better go.
Marvellous.
We'll be there and see what 
In private 
Yeah that's good.
All right my darling.
Cheerio then.
Cheerio see you in a fortnight.
Yeah
Yeah I do it all the time  all go down the dock.
Some going and some coming.
Looks like it.
Hello Rose
Hello 
Hello Pam.
Some coming some going 
Done it again.
Here we go .
How's Mickey all right.
Yeah.
Hello David 
Ah!
today 
Ah yeah.
Oh God!
Guess what?
What?
I had my tape running.
Oh you didn't?
I did.
Oh God!
I had my tape running.
You'll have a good one there.
The things is I got list everybody in the order in which they spoke.
Would you like to try that one.
Oh no thank you
Hello Lorn.
It's all right 
Lorna!
Lorna!
Do you know you're part of a national survey
Why?
On the spoken word.
Why?
Because it's something I'm doing and I've just recorded all our conversation here 
I didn't notice that  the microphone.
I didn't know what it was.
I've got little microphone up here.
Good God.
look 
Like like a survey down  have you?
What have you recorded?
What I've recorded and just letting them have the tapes.
And just keep a record of the time that I recorded it and er a little bit I've just got to give the first names of the people that were talking but it's done anonymously so there's no no problem with that.
You didn't tell him that I got my  
No no no I didn't 
Have a see what it's like.
Oh that was stupid.
Ooh what was that?
That crazy fool run out there didn't he shouting out .
That was nasty.
Bye.
See you.
Bye.
I knew there was some on it.
Oh dear.
Cheerio.
Cheerio.
Yes yesterday she was straining the boiling water off the potatoes.
Hm hm
And it splashed back and burnt all her neck.
Oh no!
Chow!
And she burnt all her neck.
Oh that was a good time to have it on Tony
It was
Conversation on that one 
So you did
I tell you what as well with directions to that place on there as well.
The only thing is I think I'd rather try and er find out now we know it's Fancy Goods and look it up in Thompson's local and then find out the address and then we'll find our own way down there.
Ya.
My God!
No those posters all over the boards and there was  head.
No we'd just picked up Christine from her friend's house and I had sort of half a dozen people 
On there yeah
to on there to note down.
Yeah.
Somebody I'd never seen before said hello and
That was Shane's granddad.
Yeah.
Aye.
You got some in there tonight then Tony?
Yeah.
Oh that's brilliant.
Oh I wanted I wanted not being mean I wanted to get Lorna because she's a classic example of the Bristolian accent.
Oh yeah yeah .
Yeah .
And I even noticed that she she was coming out with the thees and thous that that erm
And that's what they want.
Yeah
They want dialects and accents as well as and if you tell somebody you know it immediately stops them .
They don't yeah They talk start talking what they think 
Yeah 
is properly.
The note says sort of don't tell people until after or unless they ask you 
Or unless they ask 
they ask you directly what they're doing and erm
No wonder our Tone went to sit down which he don't usually do.
as you're being my mum you didn't keep us very long.
It was er and when she got worked up about that Fancy Goods place 
It was really
It sounds ever so good though 
It's it's really coming out.
Surprising though cause normally a place like that can need a car 
Car .
Yeah.
The thing is I suppose they rely on word of mouth.
Yeah 
Yeah 
They must do.
Well they don't they keep there prices down because they didn't spend a lot on advertising.
That's right 
How's Windy?
All right.
Are you still still with us?
Still captive is he?
Oh dear.
Seems so funny having a Houdini dog.
Seems so funny having a tall dog after having short dogs.
Yeah
And he's all he's all legs.
Oh.
Oh they're beautiful.
Hm.
It's odd though you get used to them.
Yeah.
He really is all legs.
Oh.
He's got such a tiny little tummy.
Yeah.
Hm mm.
Big chested where their lungs are for running.
Yeah .
Yeah .
And nothing but miles of legs
Yeah .
Oh .
I must admit a whippet was the dog that I originally wanted.
Yeah.
Very timid .
It's just Yeah.
Hm.
The trouble is if you're 
Oh he'll come out 
if you're the only one in house he follows you and you're looking for him and every time you're moving around he's moving around behind you  so you can't find him.
I thought I wonder where the hell's he gone.
. I mean he was he was immediately behind me.
Oh ho ho ho.
Oh.
He just goes around and I can't find him.
You need to take your hand off him and put it round you..
Yeah.
He he he keeps really close up to you when he's following you.
Hm.
Oh.
Oh.
Oh I reckon they lovely.
I really do whippets.
He's got a lovely little face on him.
Yeah.
Cause I'm I'm so used to small dogs.
It seems funny to me.
Yeah .
Yeah .
I you we I got used to Wendy's.
And you I mean people say whippets are not cuddly but they're just as cuddly you know you get used to picking them up .
Picking them up and you get they put one paw on the settee like and I said no Windy and he went 
Oh .
Oh .
Of course when he gets over the timidness he'll probably get up to more mischief.
I'll tell you what if he's six months old you'll have to watch him chewing as well.
Yeah yeah.
Because he'll be losing teeth.
Yeah.
And he'll chew.
I only caught Ben chewing once.
Ben was eight months old when we had him.
He was a bit older
Yeah
And I thought he's quiet and it was about a week after we had no twice.
And once we had it was before we had all our carpet done in the hall
Yeah .
we had a rug at the top of the stairs
Yeah.
And he was chewing the corner of this rug and it was all soggy and horrible 
Yeah 
And another time he went quiet and he was in the front room and when I went in he was chewing the leg of the settee
Yeah.
And that's wood.
And there's still the teeth marks on it now,
Oh yeah 
We can't get rid of them.
a lot about that when you went when they went last year.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Laugh.
Oh yeah that was lovely.
I was worried you wouldn't get the 
Yeah.
You left them in my pocket Remember when we went to Tesco's?
I thought so.
When you went into Tesco's.
I looked in my  the other day and I thought I thought now I haven't got it now.
I I thought I probably put
Put them away.
Huh.
When you were looking at the door
He wasn't looking your way was he?
No.
I expect you to put these in your pocket 
And when I went to go to work I pulled me gloves what I thought out of pocket and was going to put them on and I thought er  
Ooh.
Turn the heating down a just a bit.
Yeah.
Different colour 
Oh no!
It's all new.
Anything you say  menace here.
Cause in the summer when the traffic lights are changing the trees are growing over the ones this side
Yeah you've got an awful job to see
And all you can see is the red at the top on the other side cause the walls in the way.
So if it's green it just looks as if nothing's there  which is a bit of a nuisance.
Hm.
You've got lots of lights on this one Christine.
So that whenever
Oh yeah
They always seem to do a lot just here 
Oh yeah .
This little shop  it's lovely.
It's only a sort of a hi-fi electrical goods place.
It's only a little shop and yet it always seems to have lovely decorations.
Tony you know you're prepping Monday and Tuesday 
Yeah when 
Sorry?
I'm in Castle Week this week.
Yeah no I'm talking about is it the week after your prepping?
The week after I'm prepping Monday Wednesday Friday.
Do you need the Monday?
Er 
I'll tell you what I've just had a thought.
Yeah yeah.
I won't be able to because Jackie be at work on double shift.
Oh yeah.
So I got to stay with the dogs and 
Daddy I'm  
Until he comes home from work.
Yeah
Cause he advise you not to leave them on their own for too long.
Yeah
For the first fortnight three weeks
Yeah 
Yeah 
That's what I was only be able to  on a Sunday or something like that.
Yeah.
Mummy!
You know what we're doing on our Christmas cabaret?
Have I told you about that?
Yeah.
We've got an interview after school Wednesday 
Well that's fine but you'll have to 
Is it straight after school?
Yeah.
Right.
We'll have to let Grandma know then
Yeah 
Yeah but will I be allowed to ?
Well you'll have to.
I mean Just the same don't walk on your own.
That's the only trouble when there's buses and that to catch.
If you're got extra time it puts you right out.
Catching a bus from 
Mummy I walk home but I walk home really 
What time do you actually break  up?
What time do you finish school?
Erm half past three
Twenty five days
we finish half past two
So if they kept your half day 
so that would be four o'clock.
It'll be dark 
And it'll be dark by four 
Yeah.
Normally I get home by about four o'clock
Yeah.
It's just started to get dark but by the time it's just started to get 
Yeah.
So it'll be just starting to get dark when you leave there?
Yeah.
Well as long as I can walk with Manda.
If I can't walk with Manda then what do I do?
Then you don't stay.
Make sure you get Manda  
in the dark.
If Amanda's not staying then you won't be able to stay will you?
No.
It looks like  some people going into the park lately.
Yeah
Look at this!
Yeah
Good grief!
People oversh over shooting that bend.
And there's an accident up by the Flying Fox is it?
Up  end of airport road there up that way?
Oh!
Some erm  motorway police chasing a car evidently he went into the bollard and ripped the car open.
They said he was lying in the road.
Oh dear 
Oh.
That was early this morning.
Yeah.
Mm.
Saw a brilliant light for a cycl .
Show Jackie in a minute  all that guff about laughter Michael's chest he's got back of his  .
Now how's my other baby?
All right?
Love dog.
You my other baby.
All right?
Yes.
The other night though we walked round and we walked bang into the entrance to the field
Yes
You know walked right the way down and you couldn't see 
No
He's he's gone 
Hello Fred.
Oh he's beautiful!
Laugh
So you'll be all right.
He's a bit nervous I think
Yeah.
He's very timid now.
Yeah.
Yeah  last week.
Yeah 
Yeah .
Yeah 
He's definitely got 
He knows everything.
Yes.
You're lovely!
And a bit of  don't they.
Well he's never seen you before he's  danger 
Yeah.
Oh he's lovely dog!
How he carries his tail
Yeah.
He won't carry it like that
Not walking yeah.
That's nerves yeah.
Oh.
When he's out walking he's upright very up right.
Aha.
And his tail will just hang then down between his you know 
Get it down my love.
It'll hang naturally.
Yeah.
Did you get your  what can you smell?
Do you smell another little dog is that what it is?
You smell another little dog?
Hm?
Do you smell another little dog?
Tony have you got any change?
Have I got any change?
Change of what?
I thought I'd give Jackie three pounds forty eight.
So if I gave you one pound fifty
Yeah that's fine.
we owe you two pence 
Two pence .
Oh oh I can't do that.
No way 
No way 
Jack.
Thank you.
Tony's got your money.
Oh lovely thank you very much.
Well don't read all the books 
Okay.
You can give her what she wants as long as she puts it down on the  as long it's over fifty you can give her what you want.
I gave her a pound.
Over fifty 
I gave her a pound  Oh you'll have to get him vaccinated .
Yeah .
Yeah cause he's had a temporary one.
He's had a temporary one.
Yes.
Yes.
But it's not the full vaccine is it?
Within the first six weeks .
It says you can  yeah.
No he hasn't got that.
Full one.
Full one.
How did you catch him?
Didn't 
I didn't 
Oh yeah he dashed oh sorry.
He was playing down the dog's home in the car park.
So  How did they catch him in the dog's home that's what I was thinking.
Well he just just 
Ah I see.
Yeah.
They must of called him and he went in.
Oh!
come in.
When they came in to work they park their cars and he was playing in the car park.
I mean it's marvellous.
I mean you have 
No how he found his way back again
Yeah.
It's marvellous.
Don't forget he got to 
Yeah.
It's not like a race track is it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean you can't 
Oh maybe he's got the speed to manage it 
He has.
Yeah.
He's not very er
He's getting better though.
It's marvellous.
sort of explosive.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They go
Yeah.
Oh he can   Oh this is this is micro chip wonder.
Yeah.
Tony this is bar code
Oh right 
Oh it makes you sound like they're groceries doesn't it?
Yeah.
Yeah .
Yeah.
I think 
This one's been on before.
Mummy!
Oh.
Mummy this one's been on before.
This one.
There's two girls and they murdered this boy.
Is that the first part was on last week?
And this is the second part.
Yeah but I think this is starting.
No that girl
This is second the second part of this mystery.
It's a two part mystery and it was on last week and it's on this week.
How did whoever get killed?
They poisoned the mushroom soup.
I see.
The mushroom soup.
Yeah.
I know how they did that as well.
Do ya?
Yeah.
With erm toadstools.
Yeah but all of them ate it and he was still he was the only one that died.
Hm.
Yeah.
We haven't done it yet.
Because he's never off the lead.
No no.
But you still think well 
Yeah
Hm
That's right yeah.
You never can tell.
He didn't run out there once.
In the really really windy weather
Yeah he didn't go out.
The door got blow out front Isn't Mum?
The door got blown open.
Yeah.
You won't be the first in the front there.
Oh lovely.
It's the ones that come up every year.
Isn't it Matt?
Yeah.
It makes a difference.
Is it perennial the ones they call them ones that come up every year?
Perennials.
I think so.
Perennials.
Stomach pains.
Violent pains.
Can't you complain about anything else.
Isn't that enough.
That's what you get when someone throws the pans at you.
Did your sister have any specific worries or problems?
You mean apart from being married to him?
Are you all right?
I think  Amanda's ?
Yeah.
We played erm game murder in the dark.
Mm mm.
Erm .
You got this piece of paper and it's got murder victim policeman and judge.
Yeah
And you fold them up and you put them in something.
You pull one out and whatever it says on there you've got to pick and  if there are a policeman judge victim then you just walk around the room.
If you are the murderer you've got to walk around the room and do that to somebody.
And then they fall down and die and they give a signal er they scream and they pick something up.
And then 
Mm.
And then the judge has got to ask the people where they were and then you've got to clap something so they clap clap and then  you've got to point at somebody.
Mm mm.
And  and then you just keep going like that.
But one thing you've got to turn out all the lights.
Everybody's
How many of you were there down there then?
Four.
there was the murderer victim judge policeman.
Oh when you have a dog from there and you can't keep it
You can take it back.
You can take it back.
Yeah but you must have it  you mustn't pass it on to anybody else.
Oh.
If you find it too difficult to manage or
Hm mm.
But it's actually now made out as an adoption  of the dog.
Yeah.
You don't own it.
You adopt it to bring it back.
Hm hm.
What's that Dad?
Oh!
You've been lovely.
Yeah 
Yeah .
They flatter him up there at  didn't they Tony?
Sparks flying out of the back of the
Oh yeah.
horses heels.
Oh!
Quite a stocky horse wasn't he?
Oh yeah yeah.
Hm  So he's good really for you to ride him really cause he's
Yeah  
Mm mm.
That was your  wrong.
my job.
Ah!
Yeah Granddad had a Consul didn't he?
And a Rover.
And a Rover.
But before the Rover he had a Consul.
Mm.
Estate  yeah.
There's something here about  bed.
It says here don't put  it likely to be very insecure and may misinterpret what reaction.
It says your  umbrella.
Yeah.
You can't get  unless you've got a broom in your hand or a brush.
It's not as bad now as it used to be 
No 
No 
Stays awake.
He walked he won't walk past you won't walk past you he'll walk back.
If you're hoovering.
If you're hoovering he'll go all the way round to try
Yeah
to try and keep away from 
Windy don't like the Hoover.
I put it on this morning he didn't like it.
Hm.
Oh it's not that there isn't it?
There you've got a new friend now.
Isn't that nice?
All new friends.
Leave him alone.
Fred leave Windy alone.
No thanks Dad.
Yes.
No he hasn't got any use of  no.
He's so good seeing he's only been here two days.
job.
Mind you he'll change a lot.
Oh yes as he gets used to you
Yeah.
he'll got more lively.
Yeah.
We found that with Ben and he changed Ben changed when when he actually matured.
Yeah.
Because the postman milkman he didn't take any notice until he matured.
Yeah and then
Then all of a sudden 
Yeah
You know and
But they are they're pretty docile type of dog but they're a chaser.
Yeah 
Yeah 
Yeah
They tend to like 
We've
Yeah.
And erm with a dog that moves that quickly he's not just a chaser he's a catcher as well 
Yeah
Yeah definitely.
I notice that with Ben.
He saw something erm he saw a cat and he zoomed out the front door and he was gone and it's only when he lost sight of the cat he thought about where he was
Yeah
He just went straight for him and you know he just didn't think about where he was going or anything and he 
And when he comes to look round
He was completely lost
And as it was I could see him and I called him and he looked over and he saw me and he came dashing across all the gardens.
He was ever so pleased to see me.
Yeah.
But  he see a cat and choo he's gone 
Yeah.
You know cause it's all been on here.
Yeah I suppose so.
I first  when I come in this morning Fred was on his blanket.
Then once this morning Fred's bum was on his blanket and Windy curled up by the side of him.
Well they can't be arch enemies to do that can they?
But when he gets up he unwinds.
Yeah.
And curly 
And then he stretches and he stretches so far 
And he gets longer and longer
Yeah
You wonder how much longer he's gonna
Can he get yeah 
He won't get much bigger though from what I Wendy's dog he's nearly there 
Yeah 
No.
He's pretty much all brown isn't he?
I didn't expect him to be quite that big but he
I said to you he was pretty tall.
Yeah.
Yeah
Yeah.
Leave the door open a minute Christine it's a bit warm in here.
Yeah.
Shall I take the  out?
Yeah.
Oh year
I mean outside 
Oh no.
It says in here six weeks.
Yeah
No with them being so fast it's not 
No.
Yeah but I think it's a period of six weeks.
I mean that gives them time to become accustomed.
He'll go backwards and forwards in that field so often.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He said you weren't to let a new dog off the lead until he had  for six weeks
Gosh!
I think perhaps if you go over the field after Ben she would make 
Yeah.
After about six weeks you know.
He certainly seems to know his way around now doesn't he?
He can find us 
Especially us.
It's the first time he's been brought out this way as far as we know
Yeah
And er he wasn't walked up.
He was brought up in a car.
It's fascinating how he found his way down there.
Yeah.
I though 
He doesn't know where he lives 
Round that  erm  I think he was found may I need to ask?
Oh yeah.
It's not that far is it?
Isn't it funny that Ben come from .
Yeah yeah.
And he's so lovely.
I mean he don't although Fred is totally different breeding it's Fred's his eyes.
Yeah yeah it's very much like that.
Mm and the ears are very similar.
Only Ben's stand right up.
Yeah.
But  flop down.
But Ben's flop down sometimes uh huh.
Most of the time they flop down.
And he's 
Well not like that.
If Ben was led like that he'd they'd be up straight.
Yeah.
I think there might be a whippet Jack Russel cross.
He's very long in the body for a
Yeah
small dog.
Yeah.
Mm.
He's got quite a long body which is what
Yeah.
Did you have a good tea at Manda's?
I had a little bit to eat.
Oh good.
First  er
to answer me back 
Mm.
Do you know did it say how much it is?
Hm yeah.
We can think about it after Christmas.
We can't do it now.
Or next year.
Yeah.
Is it?
Oh oh that's in good time.
February/March we've had time to get over Christmas.
Yeah.
And the massive amount of money we're going to spend on my birthday present.
Oh 
Oh yeah?
Yeah.
Oh Windy got nothing of yours over there.
Why you're going to take me out to er Easy Runner aren't you?
Specialist running shop up in Saint Michaels Hill.
Oh yeah.
They've got several in erm  I suppose they are sport they are sport shoes covers running.
Yeah.
There are lots of shops about  it's er sports shoes .
There a lots lots of shops about that spell sell sports shoes
Yeah
And they got shoes for squash and shoes for
Yeah
And shoes for tennis and shoes for this and shoes for that.
But this 
But the other ones are for running?
yeah and they sell running shoes as well.
But this one is a running specialist.
They do nothing but sell equipment for runners.
And the people who run the shop are runners themselves and you can sort of go to them and ask their advice on all sorts of things
What special
Yeah.
support and that you need?
Yeah all sort of things like that.
Mm.
Erm and not just shoes.
You might go up there and er I dunno you what's what's a good way of getting myself seen when I'm going out running at night and things like that you know and they'll give you advice and they'll say well there's this you can use or that
Yeah
Or you know  about all sorts of running problems.
Did you fill up your form about your voices.
Mm?
You've filled in your form about your voices .
Yeah I've done that.
What you put?
Hm?
Shouting match.
No I've got to put first name
Hm mm.
Occupation
Hm mm.
Male or female
All this the first one on on that bit?
Well I reckon Aunty Iris was the first one cause she said oh hello
Yeah
how are you?
And then Lorna started.
Yeah Huh and then Lorna went on and then 
And then 
Lorna went on 
Yeah.
And then you said something
Mm.
And I already had Jackie because Jackie had been speaking earlier on the tapes.
So I put Aunty Iris and then Lorna then you.
Mm mm.
I was watching the television and then all of a sudden it's too late  and then found out it's hard work.
Notice I done your clothes cupboard out again?
No never noticed.
Oh all right.
Yeah yeah yeah.
You were able to find it more easily weren't you?
Oh yes yes.
instead of being rolled up in a ball
Oh 
Jackie he was he was looking he was for something and he was looking for something in a hurry  and I couldn't find out I like T-shirts in one pile sweat shirts in another pullovers in another jeans in another but they were all sort of 
I had to sort them all out again so you can see what he got up there.
I tend to put sweat shirts and jumpers together.
Yeah well what I do sometimes I wear a thing just once and I think well it's not dirty so I put it back in.
Yeah.
That's right and a Parker pen.
No no I like a separate pile for sweat shirts and pullovers and jumpers.
Well the proper place is in the cupboard.
It doesn't matter where but as long as it's in the cupboard .
No no .
Oh yes it does.
It matters.
It's bad I know I 
If you go up and want a T-shirt you go to that pile.
If you go up and want a sweat shirt you go that pile.
If I want a T-shirt I don't go to any pile I go to the hangers.
Because I hang my T-shirts up.
Oh 
I hang my shirts and my T-shirts up.
and my sweat shirts and jumpers I I fold up and they're all in together.
Well we don't  together.
It might be  because I keep looking at mine and .
I must sort that out .
Of course ours will be high up
Yeah yeah.
so you can't push anything in the back.
No you you got a more or less get up on something to sort it out.
Yeah so overdue for getting up there and sorting.
Erm   
Hm hm.
So 
Good.
But once I decide that's settled I'd notice it cause you couldn't seem to get down.
All the others you didn't see cause they're down at the bottom so when this lot 
Hm mm
So that particular one seems to be  late tonight.
And it's as if it wasn't floating on the surface and it was doing all the things that fishes do but it was
Is 
What is it?
They called it dropsy.
Oh yeah.
This one they say.
And they say it's very rare.
Mm mm.
But they say the fish gets that's one one of the symptoms it gets very bloated out.
Bloated.
They say if it gets it take the fish out and destroy it but it's knowing it
Yeah you might be destroying it and it might just over ate 
That's right  the fish won't you?
Ah ha   
Gosh!
He's got a coat just like Ben's hasn't he?
Yeah.
Silky and er
No I don't I made it like mug soup not plain soup.
Yeah.
So greeny isn't it?
Yeah.
Let the grain go well er matured 
Oh I loved that bit in Shogun I don't know if you remember it.
Or whether you saw it at all.
But they had er Richard Chamberlain shot pheasant
Yeah
And he hung it up outside his house
Yeah
To let it get  let it rot.
Let it get gamey and he's erm Chinese assistant the person who has been assigned to sort of look after him and do his do his translating and things like that took it down and buried it  cause they didn't eat rotten meat they did  
Oh you can't beat a wet shave 
I don't like Gillette 
No.
You can't beat a wet shave  I find I find I mean people have said that oh having a wet shave makes my face sore and things like that.
I find that using an electric shaver makes your face sore cause you're rubbing your face all the time.
Whereas
But I mean with a blade it's only one
That's right
Yeah yeah .
and it's all I mean I use this gel stuff
Hm
which doesn't dry the skin dry the skin out or anything and erm it's just like washing your face with water.
I mean it doesn't  I used to hate it when I was doing plays there and you have er grease paint on and you'd be you'd try and you'd have to cream on your face to get the grease grease paint off .
Get it off .
And so you'd be putting lots and lots of grease and much on your skin and then you get spots.
Yeah
And you'd be trying to shave and you don't want to cut spots.
Err!
Oh!
Horrible!
And the cream actually brought you out in spots did it?
That they were putting on or was it the actual make up or?
Well it's just it's not the the grease the make up or the cream it's the fact that you're you're putting so much muck on your skin all the time and it clogs up pores and causes spots.
Cause you have to put a lot of cream on your face to get the make up off  and you do that especially if you're doing two performances a day  it's an awful lot mess and much you're putting on your face and you can't get it all off 
Done anything about a Christmas presents yet Jack?
Yeah.
which  got a lot more space.
Oh!
Three drawers down one side and it's got it
Oh!
And there's a support the other side is a book shelf.
Oh that's nice.
Hm.
Yeah
got one exactly the same as that except it's wooden.
It's got three doors one side and a book shelf the other side.
Hm.
It's wood.
It's got red handles.
As same as 
Is it nice?
Yeah.
Where's that Grace is it?
Yeah.
Hm.
It's like you know at the moment
Yeah.
On the bookshelf of the  side.
Oh.
You might be able to decide which side you want it on then Christine.
Yeah
Yeah .
Because if you're right handed 
It's a flat pack Yeah.
Mum is it wooden?
I don't know.
It's erm
Well it er it will be wood but whether it's covered over whether it's wood grain or whether it's white or I don't know.
They might have a selection.
They might have it done in white black and wood.
Hm.
So we I think we might go with  mightn't we?
Hm mm.
Hm.
Did she decide what she's doing with her money yet?
Still making less  
She's more or less  she's er
We're gonna have to hurry up now.
Yes.
She's going get Aunty Iris' 
yeah.
And if there's any over she might be able to get some other bits for it.
Desk yeah.
I mean she she might want to buy  a nice desk.
No she's got a desk tidy.
She's got a desk tidy.
Yeah
What might be an idea is to get her some good blotters.
Not ones with blotting paper.
No no I know
Yeah I know.
Yeah because this one because it's easier to write on than er than a wooden .
Yeah it's like er a very a layer of plastic with a very thin layer of sort of felt underneath.
So when you write it's soft.
It's was like you were writing on a writing pad.
Because you don't feel right on wooden table it's quite hard isn't it?
Yeah.
Well it makes it it's a nice soft surface for you to write on.
You mean something like sort of like a board.
Like Daddy had in 
That's right.
Yeah only 
This  After having a think.
I reckon most of your books will go in that bookcase.
Which would mean you could you could have your work
I could put my little shell boxes on top of the shelf.
That's right.
You could put all sorts of little things in there.
But let's wait and see cause I'll take you out and we'll have a look.
Perhaps next weekend.
Yeah.
What is it another free weekend?
Right I reckon I'm going to get  
he just folds up.
Peculiar.
You'd never think he'd go into that sort of ball.
I must admit they're lovely to cuddle because they do curl up into a ball.
They love cuddling.
Oh yeah.
Let's wait and see.
See what we can get.
If there isn't any chance you could get a 
I'd just love to get that.
Could I?
Make it first on the lead.
No.
Because I think Thursday Daddy'll be working.
Oh yeah well
You've got to have it when  there's least disturbance.
There are  two problems with that.
There are things certain things I'm committed to and  to have  time off means I still got to be able to do those things.
Do you see what I mean?
So I've got to watch that.
But I could manage.
I could certainly manage to have a half day.
Yeah.
And if we we're looking around in town.
Well we will be.
Could I have a day off?
It's a bit late.
Okay but
This is it.
If we going out  
you'd have to you'd have to come and get me and we'd go straight off .
Well the thing is 
Yeah.
The thing is.
The other thing erm is that I haven't got any leave.
Oh hell no!
Of course I've got my leave 
Yeah.
I haven't got any leave.
What I've got enough leave to take the time off over Christmas.
That's all agreed.
But I haven't got any extra.
And I already took a half day off flexi leave .
Daddy'll  we'll have to do it .
I've already took a half day off flexy leave to have my driving test last week
And if you do it on the tenth 
Hm.
Erm and I really want to  I will build up some more time but I haven't got any to take at the moment.
Look we've got to sort your bedroom out first.
First job.
You don't have it till Christmas anyway.
Oh but 
Now I don't get any more leave till February now.
I've got some leave 
You'll have to get it first .
But what I've got booked is that I finish  when's Christmas?
Is it a Wednesday?
I finish the Friday before that Wednesday.
That's nice.
And I don't go back until the Thursday after New Year's day 
New year's day .
That's lovely.
And we've both got that lecture time off and so  but that's used up all my leave.
I haven't got any more to take until after February.
Well how do you feel either tomorrow night?
No perhaps not tomorrow night.
Tuesday night about seeing if we can do a bit more sorting out in her bedroom.
Cause if we leave it all till the weekend we don't do it.
You know what it's like?
Yes.
Specially now Brian's got your driving lessons instead of the middle of the day?
Yeah.
The only other thing is to er  it's no good.
We've got to do things in the morning.
Yeah.
It opens till nine o'clock any night.
Erm I don't know.
But but if you if you wanted to er come and meet me from work  we could go straight off somewhere then.
Yeah but you see the thing is that if I come and meet you by the time you  no point.
We don't get home till ten to six.
So that if we have to go to Brislington we won't get there until ten to six.
You know what it was like when we went to Tescos.
Be fair  after work .
Yeah but it's open till eight o'clock.
Oh yes it's open till eight.
If they were open till late you could er
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know a lot of places that will be open late.
All the shops in town are open late on one night a week.
Yeah.
But I can't remember what night it is.
I'll phone them up then and see.
I believe   in in town.
What?
Or easier still I'll tell you what.
Hm. mm.
I'm going into Tesco tomorrow
I've got a feeling
If I get back
Yes.
God knows where M F I is in  If I get him to drive me round now I'll remember which way to go.
Mm.
It's not very far off the beaten track
Mm.
I'll have a look round
Yeah
And then we'll have to see if we can sort out something else.
I mean 
Because we'll find it.
On the weekend we've got so much
Yes you've got no time to do it.
Mm.
We don't get a chance.
What we're trying to get the washing and ironing up together and the house work and everything is well you just don't get time to do it.
Hm.
We did have this problem before but we started earlier didn't we?
Last Christmas?
No.
Oh no I we had some time off didn't we?
Yeah we did.
I haven't get any time off I can take now.
I could possibly have a half day next Monday.
Well let me go over and have a look at it and see what they've got.
They may have more than one 
Because this week I'm I'm doing a five day course I tend to add on about an hour to my time  every day.
Yeah.
Cause I tend to do half past eight till half past five with no lunch.
If I do that that's five hours I'll have built up in one week.
Yeah.
So I could take out half a day
Yeah
then.
Come on Fred.
Super Fred.
His little legs will going so fast you won't see them 
Yeah zoom!
There'll be Fred waddling along.
He's all legs.
Hello there!
Hello.
Hello.
We haven't even had a  yet Tony.
Oh dear.
round there that Pauline brought but  
Glad I came.
Tony, your office isn't in there.
I thought they'd hidden me away in a cupboard.
Hello .
Hello.
I think it's  to that one
Yeah
cos er and if you say for all enquiries please call that.
They  
Yeah.
They do actually call that 
Yeah.
still don't know that this isn't  office .
Good.
Thank you very much for .
It was really nice.
Pleasure.
Well  can we deal with any of their enquiries?
I don't know 
Hello Tony.
How are you?
Okay.
How's it going?
It's alright.
Not too bad.
But erm  the only thing is the er  you did the  put together a  document,file
Yeah.
Oh.
So 
Let's pretend then is it?
So like the space you did?
Yeah.
And let let them have one  I had  something 
Erm  can I apologize in ad , in advance Tony, but on Wednesday morning
Yes?
we shall need to interrupt just very briefly to move a couple of things out.
Yeah.
That's okay.
Alright?
Erm  I'm asking for it to be done first so hopefully
Mhm.
it'll be while you're settling down rather when it's your er 
Good.
We, we're starting at nine
Yeah.
so you know.
Well I'm hoping they'll come at half past eight.
In which case  we'll be finished before you get there.
Just in case.
I think it's only three items to be moved out  for you.
Not stuff to be moved in.
Good.
So you've got some 
I got eight.
You got eight?
Yeah
Mm  
It's something I'm doing at the moment.
Really?
Yeah.
Mm.
So if, if you wanna be wiped off  I can do that.
But if you've no objections?
No, none at all.
That's alright.
It's all in this  thing here.
It's just that er  I'm telling everybody.
Mm.
How did you find out about that?
Ah somebody approached me.
Came to my house and 
Mhm.
when we they found out what sort of  job I did
Mm.
their eyes lit up.
Cos they were trying to fill their quota
Mm.
and they couldn't find anybody living round by me that were employed.
Oh  
So  Certainly not in my age group.
Yeah.
So er 
Oh, brilliant.
So  I get the little  gift voucher .
It just means sort of walking around  recording 
Mm.
It's no problem.
And they give me all the equipment I need.
Yeah.
So er
Mm.
Great.
I, I thought that everybody would  I haven't done it on erm  I was wondering about recording a training session.
Mm.
But then   first day I was with them.
It's the first day I've been with them and I thought  I don't know.
See how it goes.
Mm.
I might  might check them out to see if they would mind if  we did something later on in the week.
Mhm.
They've got to do it till Friday
Mm.
anyway.
Mm.
So   going to be talking to  won't you?. actually it doesn't matter because it's 
they'll think their offices have been bugged.
Oh it's good.
It's quite interesting.
Yeah.
Better show Margaret as well.
Margaret.
Can I just  show you that.
Okay?
Yeah.
Where's this come from?
Well it's erm  something I'm involved in.
And er  something   I switched the erm recorder on just before you walked in to see if it recorded.
What for the whole of the morning?
No  no, no.
Just  just when I was here.
Just a minute ago.
But er if you've any objections I'll wipe it off but
All I can say is that people who hear my voice keep saying  don't you sound like Pam Ayres.
Who comes from a totally place to me.
Yes, one or two.
Yeah.
Erm  Oh I was just trying to remember what, what was said.
Something to do with  Ah Jerry said something quite good about  availability.
Erm  like you can't  although peop people will go for jobs, now produce proof of jobs they've applied for.
You can't tell whether they really want the jobs or not.
Yeah.
And and it is 
So they're actually seeking  then?
Yeah.
Well I suppose not really.
No.
It shows that they've applied for the job.
It doesn't show that they wanted it.
Yeah.
They really tried.
Yeah.
There's no way you  can know that unless you've got the  from the Job Centre that these 
And gives feedback on how they turned up and 
Yeah.
and all this sort of thing.
Yeah.
But er
That's what really makes
something, something very odd came out of that, this Ann  said something I thought  what?
And  and the thing is I didn't understand it.
So it's quite difficult to remember exactly what she said.
Mm.
Erm  something to do with  no.
I can't think.
Trouble is when you don't understand it it doesn't sink in.
No that's right.
But everybody sort of.
I remembered  
Have you?
Yeah.
It's a bit like a single office group.
sitting in and we're trying to split them up cos we don't want too  
Yeah.
Which, which they did.
But they've gone back now to sitting altogether.
So.
What's a data type for changing date of birth?
Thanks.
I couldn't, I was asked and I just couldn't think of it.
Yeah  
And there were no guide fives.
No.
Otherwise I'd have said  look it up.
Yeah.
And I didn't have any Treas keys so I couldn't tell them to use the  help service.
All my options were gone.
Oh, Judy 
asked after you.
How, how you were getting on.
So I said you were getting on okay 
You lied you mean.
Yeah, she's nice, Judy.
Yeah.?
Yes.
She fell about  at one point.
When I said thank you for that.
Evidently she was sta , she was a trainer at one point was she?
Yeah.
Yes up to about  four months ago.
So they  use trainer speech 
Yeah.
So I'm having to watch that.
Martin.
even numbers but Tony got thirteen 
Yeah.
That's great.
It's my birthday on the thirteenth.
Is it?
Yeah.
Erm  always been lucky, especially when it falls on a Friday.
Really lucky.
That's this year isn't it?
Friday the thirteenth?
This month?
Ah.
Not, not this month, no.
February.
Whenever it falls on a Friday it's always a very good birthday.
Erm  I've put these codes in my box.
Yeah.
Being nice.
Yeah.
And sort of not wanting them to go astray.
Yes.
I've now got them on my desk and I don't know where to put them.
Could you politely suggest 
Those three cabinets.
Oh right.
Alright.
So  research  sort of 
Ah.
Huh.
I've lost my bearings now.
I don't know where anything is.
Well I  
I want  the cabinet with all the supplies for the trainees.
For erm  tea, coffee and stuff.
Yeah.
Tea and coffee?
I know it was  was it on the bottom of the A to Z thing?
I wouldn't know.
The A to Z file's in there.
There's a big  Tony.
A to Z files in?
The A to Z files are over there.
Right.
I think that's where it is.
And .
Yeah there's only two lots of cabinets.
One lot over there and one lot there.
Paid the phone bill and the Access.
Oh great.
Okay.
And I'll go and see the building 
this morning.
Oh!
knocked at the door at ten past eight.
Oh!
And he kept persisting because he saw a light on.
Oh.
You know?
So I didn't know what .
through the door again the bugger.
That's right.
Ah.
Our dad had a   you know?
Mad, innit?
Oh I haven't got much to do now then.
That's one skirt, two sweatshirts.
And your jeans and that.
I've nearly done, about another quarter of an hour or so.
Mhm.
Okay?
Yeah.
. Make us some tea okay?
Okay.
No the course went alright today.
Good.
Are they a reasonably nice group?
Mm.
They're not, you haven't got any troublemakers?
No.
One or two a bit odd.
A bit odd!
But they're alright.
What do you mean a bit odd?
Erm  there's one girl who's a bit erm
Weird?
Define odd  
Er  She's very  very sure of herself.
Oh one of those.
But she's wrong.
Yeah.
Oh well I'm sure you can knock her into shape.
Oh yeah.
say 
Find it a bit easier now you've done  three as well?
I, I feel more confident, yeah.
Yeah.
I just sort of say  no, er 
Yeah.
. Must turn that radio off.
It's driving me nuts actually.
Yeah.
You can have too much of a good thing.
Or a bad thing as the case may be.
Yeah.
I've been listening to it  for a while.
Mhm.
I've got a  oh I've got a carol practice tomorrow.
Yeah.
So I'm not gonna be able to get to the building society until Wednesday.
Well that's their tough luck.
It's their mistake.
Yeah okay.
So
So long as you feel like that.
I'm not that brokenhearted and I'm, no I'm annoyed.
Does the standing order form say what day of the month it's to be taken out on?
Do you have to fill that in?
On the such and such day of the month innit?
Don't think it does.
Cos I filled it all out and I don't remember having to  if there had been anything like that I'd have asked you about it.
No I'm fed up with them.
This is twice now they've done this to us.
Yeah.
You know.
They
Yeah.
Well I'll go in and see them and sort it out.
But
Only I've got a horrible feeling  if it's 
not until Wednesday 
not done  by now 
It won't be right this month either.
It won't be right this month either, but if that's the case
Yeah.
we can write an extra cheque.
Yeah.
You know?
That's right.
But I'd rather if you didn't mind that you did go in and sort it out cos she said  well put a cheque in the envelope with the standing order form but I mean
No.
That's just  they've already  putting it frankly cocked it up once.
Yeah.
Another opportunity for them to do it again.
That's right.
What cheque!
Yeah.
I didn't see a cheque!
There wasn't a ch , just a standing order form, that's all we got.
You know?
Yeah.
Cheque number blah blah blah  written on
Yeah.
It doesn't make any difference, it's just  you know  hassle.
Yeah.
This skirt is horrible.
I was keeping it for cleaning the car.
And I'm having to resort to
Oh.
some paint splashes .
I'm looking forward to our tour round the chocolate factory next Wednesday.
Yeah it'll be nice.
Be interesting.
Next Wednesday?
Yeah.
Erm 
Right.
We'll go out and see Auntie Bettie before then.
So
Mm.
I'm not in class next Wednesday.
Oh great.
The only fly in the ointment is if it starts at seven, it's going to be a bit of a rush.
Cos you don't usually get home until ten to six.
No.
And after all the fuss that's been going on in work I don't really like to ask to go early.
No.
If you see what I mean.
Mhm.
But.
I got two Helens in the group.
Oh that's nice.
Helen, yes yes .
Luckily they've sat themselves on opposite sides of the room.
Oh that's good.
So you look at one.
Yeah.
So I can look at one and say Helen?
When they sit together you've got problems.
Yeah!
Fine.
Er.
Mum!
Hello.
Can you do my coat for me.
Pardon?
Take everything out the pockets and then
Okay
do the buttons and the zip up.
Will you?
Yeah.
Better bring my book up to date.
I've 
See what I mean about that skirt?
Yeah.
It's horrible.
Is that beer alright that I bought for you?
Yeah.
Yeah I  I had a vague recollection of you drinking Newcastle Brown sometime and quite liking it.
You certainly did.
And I know you quite liked this didn't you?
Yes  I did.
So
It's quite strong, but
Well.
Well it says strong lager, that's why I bought it.
Yeah.
Stop saying yeah  in that tone of voice.
I found in the bottom  can I talk to you while you're doing that or?
Yeah.
I found in the bottom of the freezer  some pork  that I didn't know we had.
Yeah.
Pork loin steak and 
Mhm 
two packets of chicken breasts that I didn't know we had.
So in having a clear out I
Oh good.
It was quite good  today.
But I've thrown a few things out, as well.
That were  in the freezer and they'd obviously been in there for a bit too long.
Yeah.
So a couple of bits have gone.
Mhm.
Oh that was a disappointment, there's another sweatshirt lurking under there that I didn't see.
Oh.
Ooh.
Gonna have a cup of tea in a minute?
Yeah.
Whenever it's ready actually cos my back's aching so
Okay.
Well it's made.
I've only gotta
Well if you go up to 
pour it out.
I'll finish this last sweatshirt and then I'll
Okay.
have a sit and a cup of tea.
see in a minute something's gonna go in that I swear it is.
I've narrowly missed it about three times already.
Now the problem with them doing a course the worst  the worst bit is erm   the Wednesday.
Yeah.
You're not halfway through.
Well, sometime Wednesday you go, you really go through it cos you  you're not  you're not halfway through but you're still  but you've done quite a bit.
Yeah.
It was Wednesday night last time I did this course I felt really whacked.
Yeah.
And you're gonna feel it this time as well because  having that cold.
Yeah.
Think erm  I'm getting er  oh  getting better.
Things don't throw me as much now.
No.
Well it will I mean
Found out one, one of them used to be a staff trainer.
Used to be?
Yeah.
Well used to be's don't count.
Well I actually said thank you for that and she dissolved into fits of laughter.
Why did she tell you that?
So I I've got to avoid  no that's  I wondered.
And she told me then, after that, why she'd laughed.
No.
Explain it again.
You've lost me somewhere.
I said  thankyou for that  at the end of an exercise.
Yeah.
And she said  and she di dissolved into fits of laughter.
And I won , and  I didn't know why.
Thanks.
Have you poured out one for Christine ?
Yeah.
Can you bring hers in, or she's gonna create hell   biscuits .
She's had bran flakes.
She  .
Mm.
And er  so I said  she dissolved into fits of laughter so  after that she explained it by saying well I used to be a trainer and I know how  I got to avoid the stock phrases.
You alright?
Christine, there aren't enough biscuits for us to have one each.
You can have a Snack if you want but if you do you won't have one for school tomorrow.
You've had two bowls of cereal, you're not starving are you?
There's some chocolate chip cookies out there if you want some.
I'm gonna have    there are some crumbs in those packets but they're impossible to get out.
Oh well.
Crumbs don't count.
Don't worry about that.
No.
They'll be  will they just get washed out?
They'll get washed out, yeah.
Erm  do the zip up and tie a bow in those strings.
Life-sense
Oh ow!
What've you done?
Ow!
Ow 
What've you done?
Let me see.
Christine let me see, what have you done?
There's nothing there.
What did you do?
Bend your nail back?
Yeah.
I I could have sworn that they came off my skin.
Feels like it but it's just where it bends back and it pulls it out straight.
That's why it's  horrible.
Do you mind eating a bit later on?
No.
I've st still got this sort of   this sort of
Are there any Rice Crispies mum?
Oh aren't there any out there?
Oh that's it then.
I still got this little housewife feeling that it ought to be ready when you come in the door you know   .
Well  there's a couple of hours of good telly on tonight.
Good.
There's erm 
Will I be able to move the car up  outside the house a bit later on?
Did you notice when you came in?
I didn't.
Sorry.
There's Telly Addicts.
And Life-sense?
Yeah.
Erm  Rumpole of the Bailey.
Er and there's erm  just trying to see.
A Mike Hammer film  st starring Stacey  on  later.
I said
Okay.
I don't want 
I'm with you.
And I told her and she said I didn't hear anything.
It's good that.
Mm.
It's alright.
Christine.
Do you trust my judgement about your desk?
So if I were to go out tomorrow and see one and it was nice
Mm.
and I got it, would that suit you?
Mm.
Depends if I could have it still tomorrow or not.
Well you can't have it until your bedroom's sorted out and  
Yeah but once my bedroom's sorted out.
Well you've been told you can have your desk and your chair, but you're not gonna have your lamp and  erm  some other bits.
I've got an office supply shop right near me.
You know I, we were talking 
Yeah?
about getting her a  a  and that?
Mhm.
Probably get something in there.
Yeah.
Mummy, turn the television over please.
On to one.
If you don't mind.
On to anything  but that.
I'm gonna do my french sheets.
So I might ask dad to help me put on the roof-rack.
The roof-rack isn't behind the steps is it?
It's sort of on top of everything?
Can't remember.
No, neither can I.
I'd quite like to record that Watchdog programme.
In car
Yeah.
safety.
Oh
.
Little beetle pushing his  pile of whatever along.
Well you know whatever don't you?
It's half past seven that's on.
In half an hour.
Wogan's going!
Yeah I see.
Yes!
Hip hooray   Mummy  
So when are  gonna get  they won't get, be able to get Jonathon Woss.
No way.
Selina Scott or Ann Diamond or somebody.
Yeah.
Do you know when?
Erm  no.
It's just, they just announced this morning that he's, and he's asked to go.
Mm.
It's not that he's being kicked out.
My pencil case is breaking.
I know.
It's only the lining though.
I really liked that  that one.
And that one's great.
I'll see this little bit then I'll go and finish that ironing and  would you record er Watchdog for me?
Yeah.
On car safety 
Do you wanna make a cup of tea?
If we're eating later 
Yeah.
Have we got any crisps?
not a lot in there.
I was gonna get some more tomorrow.
When am I gonna have my tea?
Erm
I can get your tea in a minute.
No no I don't mind.
Ha ha  I just  she just said to me you any good at German .
I looked at it an I said that's French.
And she said I know but are you any good at German.
Sorry.
I'll erm  get some kitchen roll.
Put tissue over it.
Mm.
What's this gonna sound like on that tape.
I know what I'm getting .
I know what I'm getting .
no look.
Don't break them.
No.
Oh don't do that.
Right.
I don't mind.
I don't mind.
You choose.
Ooh.
Alright?
Ah.
Is she a shepherd or just an old crook?
Can I have a crisp
Oh dear.
I must admit I like to see that, because  so many people, if a dog had to lose a leg they'd say put it to sleep, put it to sleep.
Mm.
Yeah 
And  why?
If you lost a leg they'd stick a false one on you or give you a set of wheels.
Mm.
Right.
So why kill it why kill a dog because it's gonna lose a leg.
Mm.
It's got  well you've only got two.
You lose yours, one of yours and it's a disaster.
Mm.
If a dog loses one, well it's still got three to get on with, you know?
Yeah.
It's hardly a handicap at all to a dog.
It's happened to one dog and he learned to walk like a human  
Mm.
He walked like a human.
. And he spun right round and he  like that.
And they said get up.
And he rolls over and then he sort of put his legs up.
I can't remember  no he sort of I can't do it.
But to lose a leg for a dog is hardly a handicap at all.
Mm.
Cos they've got three others.
They just lose their balance occasionally.
Well that's why a dog that limps slightly  very often there's practically nothing wrong with it.
Yeah.
If it thinks it's gonna hurt it will limp.
Yeah 
Whereas people, if you've got a painful leg you've got to walk on it.
Whereas a dog might have a slightly painful leg and it will limp like hell.
Mm.
Yeah.
Cos it doesn't have to use it.
Oh no we've got some really hard numbers    french if I had a dictionary I could look it up but I haven't.
Right.
Who can claim income support?
Er  to be over eighteen is it?
Erm  some people under eighteen can claim.
Who are the main  area of people that we deal with?
A generalization for most of the people we see coming in?
Most people.
Unemployed.
Unemployed.
Unemployed.
Yeah.
So people who are unemployed  can claim income support.
Any other people apart from people who are unemployed that can claim income support?
Those on low incomes?
Low income, yes.
Anyone else?
Training courses.
Training courses.
You know?
Like U T and
Right.
They're actually paid a training allowance, which is related to income support.
But it isn't their income support.
Mm.
So anything  anyone else who might receive  income support?
Old age pensioners.
Pensioners.
Yes.
Anyone else?
If you're disabled?
Erm  yes but they normally receive their erm
Disability allowance.
their own benefits.
Yes related to disability.
But yes they can if they don't receive enough from other means.
Yeah.
Yes.
It's what the government 
Think I heard that one   That's quite an old one 
There's
No it's alright.
There's erm  there's one other erm  group of people that might be able to claim
One parent families.
Yeah.
Single parents.
That's another very common one.
Yep.
Single parents.
Right.
So what factors decide what you get under income, income support?
Your income I suppose.?
Erm 
means tested.
Yeah, yeah.
So looking at somebody's needs  and what are the sort of things they're likely to take into account?
Yeah 
How many there are in the family.
Income.
Er  how many in the family?
Yes.
Number of dep 
Number of children.
Number of children.
Is that opposed to the number of adults 
Erm
as well as.
As well as.
Financial commitments.
Financial commitments.
Mortgage  
Housing 
Yes.
Mortgage will  They will help with the mortgage.
What happens about rent?
Get some housing benefit.
Yeah.
They can claim housing benefit.
That isn't income support, that's another benefit that they claim from the Local Authority.
So if they're in rented accommodation then they will need to make a claim to a Local Authority for that.
What other things might D S S take into account?
Poll tax.
Savings.
Er  savings.
You mentioned poll tax.
Erm another, another thing you can claim is relief from paying poll tax.
So it's not directly linked with income support.
You claim relief from the people who collect poll tax.
But the fact you are claiming income support is a factor that they look at.
So if you were  in receipt of income support then you don't have to pay very much.
So who are these people then that you  get relief from if you want help with your poll tax?
Right.
You would claim that from your Local Authority.
In the same way as housing benefit.
You've got housing benefit forms 
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay?
Savings.
Erm  something else that would relate to number of children, adults is also the age.
The ages of the people in the house.
What, just of the children, or of the adults as well?
Well  once they're over eighteen age is immaterial.
Oh.
Right.
But erm there, there are a couple of different rates at which er income support is claimed depending on how old the child is.
Oh really?
Yeah.
What about the other er end of the scale?
Somebody over sixty five or seventy five or eighty  
Right.
As I understand it there's no no banding at that end.
That's strange isn't it?
Because there's a lot of erm pensions that are triggered off by the age of the elderly person.
Mm.
Of course there, there are things, I mean there is the pension.
There is also attendance allowance and there are various things like that which are  outside this.
Mm.
Yeah.
But they will take into account any special help that is needed for somebody who's disabled.
Washing.
Extra, extra money for wa if they've got lots of washing to do.
So you can get special help if somebody's disabled.
Oh you're right.
There's a pension  as well.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Sorry.
That's alright.
Right.
So.
Let's have a look  has any , has anyone not seen erm B one?
No I haven't.
I'm not really 
Right.
Well  I've only seen the back of it.
I've never looked right through it.
So how, how many do we need?
All, all 
You have a look between the two 
You've been reading B one's all week.
Have I?
You've been reading B one's for weeks haven't you?
Right.
Your rate of allowances aren't there because they go out of date so fast so I've got an extra, you can have one of these each  with the rate of allowances.
Thanks.
And there's also  you may or may not have  the erm form which you claim relief for community charge and housing benefit  inside the form.
You have to have another one if you're in cou , if you're not in council accommodation from the l which we issue as well.
.
You get so much stuff from the N C A's who do that.
The N C A's who do 
Right.
So  can I wipe this side off.
Ooh.
That's not fair is it?
If you're eighteen to twenty four years old and you're bringing up a child on your own.
You get the same as twenty five years and older.
Right.
So if we look at a  a typical family.
We have  wife and husband both over eighteen.
Both over eighteen.
How much would they get?
Sixty two twenty five?
That's it.
Sixty two pounds twenty five.
Okay?
Now if they had a child who's four years old, how much would they get?
Thirteen thirty five.
Thirteen thirty five.
For each child.
Okay?
And then another child who is  sixteen.
Right.
That's right.
So.
What about if they're fourteen?
Nineteen seventy five.
Nineteen seventy five.
There you go.
And in addition to that there is a premium because they are a family.
And the premium because they have at least one child is seven pounds ninety nine, ninety five.
So ev even if you had six children, you'd still allowed, still only get seven ninety five?
That's right.
In addition to the 
Yeah
Yeah, yeah.
Okay?
I doubt if you'd have six children under four would you?
You could have I suppose  
Oh well  .
Going back to what Jerry said you'd 
So.
You've got a total income coming in, er a total amount of benefit there of a hundred and three pounds thirty  for this family.
Okay?
Now  they will also be entitled to child benefit.
Okay?
So child benefit  for two children it's ninety twenty five for the first.
Seven twenty five for the second.
So that sixteen pounds fifty.
What are those rates again?
Nine twenty five first, and seven  twenty five  
It's not 
Ah.
Sneaky peaky eh?
So the, for the oldest child it's nine pounds twenty five.
Sorry it's not on there.
No  
What is it?
Ten pounds twenty five?
Nine twenty five for the first child.
And then seven pounds twenty five for  subsequent children.
Making sixteen pounds fifty in total.
This would then be treated as income by D S S and so this amount would be reduced by sixteen pounds fifty.
That's a con innit?
Mm.
I make that eighty six eighty?
Yeah?
Mm.
Now that's an idea to how they do it.
Don't try to counsel somebody and tell them how much income support they're going to get.
Because that's very very basic.
There are lots and lots of other things the D S S can take into account.
Leave it to the Citizen's Advice Bureau.
Yeah.
Leave it to the Citizen's Advice Bureau or the D S S.
I feel sorry for the D S S cos the Citizen's Advice Bureau  to make sure that the people get all they're entitled to 
Mm
The Citizen's Advice Bureau has got a pro forma which if a person goes in and says  I think I ought to be getting, I think I, I don't think I'm getting sufficient income support or I'm going to apply for income support.
What should I get?
And they go through and tell them what they should get.
Mm?
Which I would find very trying if I was in the D S S quite honestly.
Yeah.
Right.
Now  so having issued B one, where's it got to go?
The D S S.
Right.
So it goes to the D S S.
Which one?
The one nearest .
The one in the area which in they live.
So it it's not specifically related to the benefit office where they're signing.
It's based on where they live.
And so you might find that some offices have to think of two or three  D S S offices and refer various people to the, to various ones.
Depending on where they live.
Okay?
Now when you had that bundle of handouts that are all stapled together  
There was  a list of the D S S offices  together with guidance on their address.
Now if I can check that you've all got that.
I you haven't, I've got a list here that I can let you have.
It looks like that.
and then if you come across it later.
I was just wondering that.
Or is it  it is in fact North Radstock isn't it?
. The actual town is North Radstock.
Okay.
Any question so far?
Okay?
Right so when do you issue a B one?
At fresh claims.
Change of circumstances.
Fresh claims.
Fresh claims.
Er what do you mean by change of circumstances?
If they change their address or something or they live with somebody else or they  move out from somewhere 
Yeah.
Erm  change of  let's say person's circumstances.
It might be limiting with a change of address it might not.
Yeah?
Any 
Also when they run out of U B.
When they run out of U B.
Yes.
Any other times when you might issue one?
Erm  situation where you have somebody  who has left their job.
Wasn't clear at the time what the circumstances were.
You may find when you have the reply back from the employer that you have to suspend unemployment benefit.
In that instance you could issue a B one so that he would have some money coming in.
So  if unemployment benefit is suspended  and erm another circumstance which might arise is somebody  expects to receive unemployment benefit and then finds that they're not entitled to it.
Because of contribution problems.
If in doubt
Yes.
always give a B one in my opinion.
Yes.
That's right.
They may  the only thing is they may not wish to take one.
You don't have to, you don't have to claim.
And they may say no no I don't want to claim.
In which case that's fair enough.
But at some future time they may decide they want to.
If a person refuses U B.
They should take  you should issue them with a leaflet 
Sorry?
Refuses U B?
Issues  refuses I S
Mhm
You should issue them with the basic leaflet telling them about I S.
Mhm.
So that they're aware of what they've refused.
That's a very good  er very good precaution to take, yes.
Very good idea.
I don't normally.
But  you can do .
Well yes you can but  if anyone refuses U B er I S rather I always give them a leaflet.
so that you are sure I'm not conning you.
So before we issue  before we hand over the B one what do we do?
Fill in the back.
We fill in the back.
Yes?
.We'll be giving you some exercises later about filling in the back.
Erm
Who would do this then.
I mean it wouldn't just be  anyone could do this, fill out the back it doesn't have to be an E O does it?
No, no it doesn't have to be an E O.
Right.
Erm the only thing is  what does happen occasionally is somebody comes from the D S S offices and they've been told, I need a B one.
What they haven't been told is that you actually have to make a claim for benefit.
And have to sign on every fortnight.
every day .
It happens every day.
Every day.
And  yes.
And, and so then they, they're a bit miffed that instead of the B one they're being asked to complete a U B four six one, a U B six seven one.
They then have to come to an appointment and be interviewed.
Whereas in actual fact I don't want all this, I want is a B one.
But they have to make a claim before you can issue a B one.
And the D S S can't issue B ones unless they've gone through all the procedure.
That's right.
In fact D S S don't issue B ones.
We, we have to issue B ones.
Because they have new people on the counter and it's it's 
Good question.
It happens every single day .
Go down and get a B one 
How long does it take for income support to come through?
Once a claim has been made.
According to the managers five and a half days in this area.
How long is a piece of string?
Five and a half days?
They can get it immediately.
get it immediately 
That's what I was quoted last week.
Right.
When I asked the self-same question.
He said five and a half days.
He hasn't .
The last time 
I, I would I would have thought it could have, could take, it could easily take ten days.
Yeah Two weeks.
Two weeks.
When they had problems not so long ago it was taking a month.
Yeah.
I heard it was six weeks.
A month, six weeks.
Well they have targets like we all have and one of their targets is how quickly they can turn around the claimant's money.
Mm.
What does a  claimant do then they've got no money then for six weeks if it takes six weeks.
Come and bang on our door for six weeks.
They get, I think they can 
Yeah
They can get a crisis loan.
They don't, they can also get paid early direct by the D S S.
D S S will actually pay them rather than telling us to pay them.
But is it up to them to actually go to D S S and say I want a payment now?
That's right.
So if you get someone in that situation who's saying I'm desperate for money, I'm claiming income support, I've heard nothing  and you haven't been told how much they're entitled to.
Then they can actually go to the D S S office and say that they need some money urgently and D S S may make a payment.
But may but not nec 
May 
May not.
Yeah.
It depends on the circumstances and you're not, you're not in a position to say  what D S S will or won't do.
So you can only say they may make a payment.
under er  I think they would do under most circumstances.
It would only be if they suspected that something  odd was going on.
Okay and how do D S S tell us how much to pay  income support?
B two.
Yep.
B two.
Right.
Before I ask you to complete B one there's one more thing we need to talk about.
And that is about what happens when someone leaves a job of their own accord.
So what happens when someone leaves a job of their own accord, what happens to their unemployment benefit.
Suspended.
Suspended pending enquiries.
Yeah.
But not, it's suspended, it's suspended but it's not disallowed.
That's right.
So what, what's the difference?
Well it's suspended pending enquiries so it's in suspension.
They, we're looking into the reasons.
And if erm  they don't like the outcome of our deliberations they have a right of appeal.
Right.
But when, when the adjudication officer has made a decision  he will then allow or disallow.
So that that's the  so at first the claim is suspended.
And then when you have a decision from the adjudication officer it is then allowed or disallowed.
And then they can appeal.
And then they can appeal.
If they wish.
Yeah.
It used to be six months didn't it, and now it's gone up to 
That's right, yes.
Big jump isn't it?
Well.
It went up in stages.
Oh did it?
It went to thirteen weeks and then it went to twenty six weeks.
Did it?
Yeah.
As a deterrent.
Which it never has had any effect on  at all.
That was the reason behind it.
It was a, a deterrent to people giving up their jobs but nobody knew about it.
People don't know about it now.
So if they immediately fall back on IS, I mean it
Yeah that's just what I was going to say.
What happens then, to income support?
Paid at a reduced rate.
It's paid at a reduced rate  for the period of the suspension.
I thought if it's disqualifying, if you were disqualified then  income support pays normal 
No.
Sorry it's, it's, if it's allowed they would have a reason  income support to pay.
If it's disallowed  then erm they would have their entitlement in that they would be paid a reduced rate during the period of the susp , er of the disallowance.
And would they still get the income support after that but still at a reduced rate or not?
Right.
Once we're out of the twenty six week period it would go back to its normal rate.
I think we're talking about  once the suspension was over
Yeah
and the adj the A O has made the decision.
disallowed
Mhm.
they'd carry on getting the reduced rate prior to the period of disallowance.
That's right yes.
They'd still get paid then?
Yes, but at a reduced   reduced rate.
What is the reduced rate.
I'm sorry.
I'll go on to talk about that .
Is there a handout on this because
Right.
I've got a handout on the reduced rate, yes.
And I'm gonna be giving you a handout which gives you information about how to calculate it.
I never tell people getting a reduced rate 
Well no because they just go bananas if you do.
You've got to be careful.
What, what do we call that  reduction, deduction?
U D
Right.
Yep.
I don't know if you've heard that term at all around.
What does it stand for?
The  deduction.
Yep.
oh.
Let's try that again.
Unemployed  deduction.
Okay?
Details of any reductions that have been made are held in enquiry screen four.
The reduction is made on the personal rate available.
So in this instance it would be made on half, if, if the husband had left his job of his own accord  it would be made on half of that amount.
Surely that's  for his wife as well so she 
No 
No no no.
No that's why it would only be  it would be made  your deduction would be made on half of that amount.
Oh I see.
No, no.
The deduction is based on
The deduction isn't half that amount
No.
it's made on half that amount.
It's, yeah.
And it is forty percent of that.
Made on the 
So
So can you give us  on that.
Yes.
You've got
I'm just trying to  
The man's would be sixteen erm
Thirty one 
thirty one pounds whatever on the twelve.
thirty p.
Yeah.
So it, it's forty percent of thirty two pounds.
Yes?
Yep.
That's right.
Reduction then on the personal  sorry, can you repeat what you said about  the reduction is made, made on the personal 
Yes.
It's made on the amount that that person, that individual is receiving in income support.
It's not on the whole family.
family should be penalized.
Yeah.
Just the the individual  and that one portion of the income support is reduced by forty percent.
So  what's forty percent of thirty one pound twenty five.
Erm  erm 
Yeah.
It's about twelve pounds a week.
What happens if you, if you're not on that rate 
What if you're a single person only getting thirty nine something?
Then you  doesn't need much does he.
But do you get the reduced rate, is it reduced forty percent for all sort of categories whether you're married, single?
Yes, yes.
I thought there were exceptions if the person was pregnant or something.
If there's a pregnant person in the house.
Yes.
There are exceptions.
So that the  majority of people will be subject to a  forty percent deduction  on their personal benefit  and their personal rate.
Okay?
That's irrespective whether they're married or single?
That's right.
Erm  the deduction will only made, be made  if a suspension is held on our computer.
So if somebody forgets to put the suspension on
It's not actually cos it causes real problems .
In other words it can take  doing that person no good service  like if there's any doubt  suspending it immediately.
They can always get the arrears.
And they get very uptight if they get erm  too much and then it's reduced rather than the other way round.
Mm.
Can I  ask ?
Yeah.
queries at the end.
No.
No that's fine.
I'm still a bit confused about erm  sorry I should have brought this up at the time.
It's alright.
Claims suspended for twenty six weeks by our good selves
Yes.
therefore if they apply for income support
Mhm
that is also reduced by forty percent.
Yeah.
Right.
What if they're unemployment benefit was disqualified?
The adjudication officer, we suspend it, the adjudication officer says  right, they're not supposed to have it.
What happens to their income support, do they still continue to receive it at a reduced rate?
That's right.
For the period of the disallowance.
And it would then revert back to full rate.
And the disallowance can be
Up to twenty six weeks.
Yeah.
thank you.
Okay?
Right.
Erm  the  some people can actually have a reduction made of twenty percent instead.
If, in this family the wife was expecting a baby  then  then it would be a twenty percent deduction.
Also if one or other of the partners, well it would have to be the partner that wasn't signing  was seriously ill  then the reduct deduction would be twenty percent.
Providing  there's a condition attached, that they have savings of less than two hundred pounds.
What if the claimant should become seriously ill?
sick.
Sick 
Do they get a reduced rate  on the sickness benefit?
No
No  They get more on sickness benefit than they do on 
And another thing  if you're living with somebody  and, and you're both unemployed.
If the person that's got the sack doesn't make the claim but the other person claims then it doesn't affect them either.
If you see what I mean.
Oh I see  so er  you're assuming then that the person that was claiming  isn't working?
Wasn't, wasn't.
Isn't working but hasn't had the sack.
Perhaps they've been made redundant.
Perhaps their partner's had the sack.
If the  person  that has had, been made redundant to make the claim, can claim for the other person and there's no red 
dependent, yeah.
Yeah so there's no reduction on that.
suspension  for three hundred and twelve days.
very often find knowing that they've left voluntarily to have babies and have decided not to go back to the job although the job's been kept open for them.
They're disallowed for six months and then coming and 
Right.
I hope this doesn't cause you a problem, but the rates of benefit have changed  very slightly since the first of October ninety one.
And the handout I've got here which I couldn't tie in just now when I was trying to do the deduction is because the rates are very slightly different.
It's about thirty pence or so more.
Than actually what we were talking about.
So I'm sorry about that.
I'll get the other one updated.
Erm but what you've got now  if you, can I pass those round and I'll explain what that says.
Is this one the same as we've got in that erm wad again?
Oh you had one in the wad did you?
Yes I had one, yeah  else did but I
In the one that we shouldn't have had which we did have.
Oh it's been a good week.
Right.
If you'd have a look at that.
The appendix age twenty  the  category which you can see there, nought to four.
That tells you the amount of income support which the deduc er for which the deduction is appropriate.
Hang on a minute.
Are we looking at 
No, we're looking at page two, yeah.
Right.
I've got April ninety one here.
Right  some are April, some of October and they're all mixed up.
I'm April
Wonderful.
I'm October.
Okay, October  you want, you want, anyone else need  October  
Yes please  
And if you please destroy the other one.
Yeah, that's the latest one.
Right  Okay have a look at that.
The B U category  nought to four.
That shows the amount  of weekly rate to which the  can be applied.
So that shows how much we're gonna apply our deduction to.
Okay?
And we can see the rates for which the deduction is going to be applied  the other side.
So erm a single under eighteen or couple both under eighteen twenty three pound ninety.
That re , that should relate to the allowances you had before.
And that's  so that's twelve fifty five if it's 
So if a forty percent deduction is made on category two, then somebody receiving thirty one pounds forty a week  would actually, it would actually be reduced by twelve pounds fifty five.
Do you see how that works?
Mm.
No sorry.
I've lose where that twelve fifty five comes from.
Right.
If you look at category two.
What here?
Yeah.
Yeah right.
They're in receipt of thirty one pounds forty?
Yeah.
So if you look at category two down below.
Forty percent deduction applied for a full week.
Twelve pound fifty five.
Oh right, twelve fifty five yeah.
Mhm.
Yeah okay.
Okay?
So the B U category shows the amount of income support that er is being, that the deduction is being based on.
And then the B U indicator  indicates whether it's rate one or rate two and indicates whether it's a twenty percent or forty percent deduction.
Now right at the beginning of a claim you can have an odd number of days before the first benefit week ending day.
There will also be an indicator on the B two to say how those days should be treated.
There will be a number which will be the number, should be the number of days before the benefit week ending day in the first week of the claim.
Right.
Any questions on that?
Well only one and that is
Mhm?
you've given us this information.
Right.
But  don't tell them  what they're likely to receive.
Yes.
So the information that is given us is for our information only, or?
Right.
You can go so far as to say that  I mean, you will be safe in saying that if your, that as your benefit is suspended  your income support for you, not for your family but for you, will be reduced.
It will probably be reduced by forty percent.
.. Yeah?
Yeah.
But if you, if you look at a B two  it makes sense, I mean I've looked at B two's and I haven't really understood what the one's two's and three's are for but now it makes sense to me so people who are  B two  makes more sense to them to know what 
Yeah.
We'll be having a look at some B two's and we'll pick up this bit about  and er the coding when you have a look at that.
It's knowing how much information you can supply and how much you keep out isn't it?
Yes.
Yes that's right.
You know.
Cos what we give to the client 
Okay?
Right.
So  I've now got a handout for you  and it'll be up to date about how to complete a B one.
Yeah, anybody else want to stretch their legs a second?
No, Okay?
handouts.
Some of them are quite hard to read.
Yes this, this one, this new one  ought to get it retyped.
It's quite an important one really.
Mm, yeah.
I'm using it all the time.
I've got better copies of the blank B one, but the handout is getting rather  Right so if we're looking at, we'll complete the B one.
Note the reverse of the U B A T B that we're issuing  and pass it to the client with an envelope to send to the right D S S office.
Sorry which is the A T B?
I can't remember, is it?
That's, that's the one er the shopping list.
Oh the shopping list, yeah.
I hate to tell you the D S S are on an economy campaign and they no longer issue envelopes.
They no longer issue envelopes.
At least they don't in Bath and you have to write the address on the front.
Oh they don't  
They don't do here either.
And then if it's in another area  which invariably is if you've got to give them  somewhere like Trowbridge or sometimes erm  in Bath or Chippenham You then have to ring up D S S to find the address.
Well hopefully all this will give you the address although it depends how far away it is.  contact D S S to get the address.
Actually it's stupid that business about the envelopes.
Mm.
quite sure which one.
It's slightly higher than the other.
Well it just sort of right.
It's just like that.
No it's not, no it's not.
Tiny little bit.
Yeah.
I  I think mine are more out than yours actually.
Yeah cos 
Yeah.
But mine are, I think mine are more out than yours but  they're not level.
And that's  those dimples are the bottom  are on the bottom bit of your spine so  if the dimples aren't level it means that bit of your back is slightly
Yeah and you gotta have something wrong with your back.
No.
you get that, can't you?
No.
Did I have that when I was ?
That doesn't matter.
Daddy's legs needn't be the same length.
Men's legs needn't be the same length.
In fact very few people's legs are exactly the same length.
Hello hello hello  hello hello hello hello hello hello hello.
Mummy  touch me on my arm and  keep going on  I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm dreaming of a white white white white white white white white white white  .
They do that don't they?
Yeah.
White white white white white white white white white white white white white Christmas
just like the ones we used to know know know know where the treetops glisten glisten  
You record over that now!
What's it Ben?
Right .
Ben.
Eh eh eh.
What is it Ben?
Ben.
Get him to lick the microphone.
That'll make a hell of a noise.
Schlurp
Slurp.
Oh stupid dog.
Ben.
Ben.
Right then give me that microphone, give me that microphone.
No no no.
No no no.
I'm dreaming of .
Sounds more like Des O'Connor.
Ben, Ben go and talk to Daddy.
Talk to daddy.
What's this what's this what's this.
What is it Ben?
Is that right?
Is that nice, is it nice?
Is that nice 
You can't wear him out can you?
No but you can keep trying.
Come on Ben.
Grr.
You wouldn't think he was being nice, would you?
No.
He looks like a   
Ow!
I can change hands  he can't 
Do it faster, do it faster dad!
he can't change mouth.
Dad change it faster  and go faster and faster and faster.
Ah!
Have you hurt your mouth?
Did you bite your lip?
Oh yuk.
Ben Ben.
he's got his back legs 
bu.
Whee!
Smurf!
Whee what?
I'm a Smurf.
You're a Smurf?
bum in the air.
Come on, bed!
You should be going to bed now.
No  don't wanna go to bed.
Come on.
Come on, bed!
Don't swear at me my dear.
I'm not swearing at you.
I just pointed upwards.
To go up  the stairs.
Dad your tape's stopped.
No it hasn't.
But you are gonna go to bed now.
It hasn't?
Oh.
No.
It hasn't.
Go on.
Come along.
We'll be up in a minute.
Brush your teeth.
I've already done that.
I'm coming I'm coming  ooh  parents!
Kids!
Parents!
Okay.
You'd better take her lamp upstairs out of the way as well because that's, remember that's a present.
It's gotta be wrapped up.
It's got to be wrapped up.
Yeah.
I know she's picked it out but 
I ordered a skirt this morning as well.
Right.
A navy blue pleated one.
Mhm.
So you want  it'll probably come as black and white spotted
Yeah.
in a different style  but 
Yeah Well, we tried.
Why is it lately that I go to, before I start my  my work
Mhm?
I feel absolutely done in.
You know I've worked so much at home
Mm.
that I feel so tired.
So I think this is half the reason why  I'm not  that .
Mm.
Because by the time I get to work
Mm.
Yeah.
You know?
You get there and there's, there's not that much pressure so you tend to sort of think  ah.
And you go at the speed that it warrants.
Mm.
If there's a lot to do you go quicker and if there's not you go slower.
Mm.
One of the gir er one of the women on the course  is er  she's, she said is the introduction course on, week after next st 
Introduction?
starting on the Monday?
I said starting on the Monday?
Do you mean the one that starts on the Tuesday?
Oh that's it she said it's Tuesday to Friday.
I said  yes it's on, I'm running it.
What did she say?
She said, oh good!
Ooh.
Which is nice.
But  then she couldn't very well say, oh no, could she?
No.
Oh what you again!
Gotta put up with you for another four days .
Yeah.
No I er  I've got some bits to give back to Julie, there's those tapes and  I don't want to listen to it, you know?
Mm.
And that book upstairs.
I don't want to read it, I'm not interested.
No.
But what can you say to her?
Say, mm yeah.
Yeah but then she'll start asking me things about it and I won't know.
Ah.
I'll just say, look Julie I haven't had time to read it
No.
so you might as well have it all back.
And don't give it to me again.
Only  she will say  well hang on to it till you've listened to it.
I'm in no hurry.
That's the problem.
Yeah.
And
Well fine.
In that case I'll hang on to it but I really think she ought to, actually I'll I'll take round there when I'm home.
Either that  or
Wrap it up and drop it through the letter box.
No!
No you can wait until you can see her going out with  wait until the car's not there if you know what car she's driving these days.
Oh dear.
And then you drop it in on Iris when she's looking after
Well Iris is there Wednesdays and Fridays.
Mum ,
Alright .
So you can drop it in on a Wednesday  drop it in 
On Iris.
On Iris and say 
I haven't seen Julie actually about the kid's Christmas presents.
And not getting stuff for each other so I hope she hasn't been out and done it all.
Mm.
Ooh   
That programme's on  in about five minutes about food?
Oh yeah.
And we've got quite a bit well  either that or we could watch the programme and then wash up, clear up and go to bed.
Couldn't we?
I haven't had time to do any shopping today or anything.
So we  we'll have a cup of tea in a minute.
We'll ge , see Christine in bed.
Have a cup of tea and watch that programme.
Yeah?
Okay.
Erm  Right, in that case  let's go and say goodnight to Christine.
Hello
Hello  wiring for the tape?
Yeah.
When have you got to give that back?
Tomorrow.
Tomorrow  yeah.
The lady's coming for it  Is there anything you want  at the supermarket?that we might forget when we're there.
Erm  I could do with some new trout   Ben  yeah you!
What are you doing with that biscuit.
Jack  see what their erm  see if they've got any mar mar er marzipan.
Marzipan?
Yeah, please see if they've got any  but if they haven't 
How much do you want if they've got some?
Well .
Shall I take an e no I'll just take another tape along.
Well I should  take an extra one the more you can get the better  that's what it's all about isn't it?
Yeah  cos er 
by the time we got to er  Mum's last time I didn't have any left did I?
No.
I'm gonna give you my wallet.
Sorry I was sat there writing out a shopping list and I suddenly thought  oh ten past seven   oh ten past seven!
Should have been gone by now whe great thanks ever so much  there you go.
Do you leave this door open?
Yeah.
and I fumbling for my key.
You were fumbling were you?
Yep  fumbling for my key.
Fumble, fumble, fumble.
It amazes me how early they are people are putting up their Christmas decorations.
It's only three weeks, innit?
Yeah but no I mean  Caroline down there have had lights up for about six weeks.
Oh good god  a bit too early.
Erm  I mean most people in your flat it's still three weeks away  we tend to put ours up about a week early, just over a week before Christmas.
That we do.
No it gets a bit ridiculous when it's  a week before and then until January the sixth.
Yeah.
That's what we tend to do isn't it?
Mhm   
It always looks  
like that,
I wish they'd stop going on about Christmas for heaven's sake,.
I I'm trying not to think about  way I feel on Christmas morning cos 
her birthday  because of Christmas
Oh I see.
she gets so this is your Christmas present and your birthday present
And that's all wrong.
all in one  and I think that's horrible   Did you see that car 
They got a bi they got tinsel around the aerial 
Just put  yeah  tinsel wound around 
Oh no.
the aerial and he's trailing some in the back window as well.
Ha ha.
How stupid can people get!
Well  you sa 
I don't know that.
you say that but if we had a cigarette lighter in  in this car, a socket  an electrical socket I'd 
You'd have a little tree with flashing lights.
No.
Looks like you can't get out.
Oh look at that one they got arrows  an they got two arrows facing one another.
Yeah  Rightio Jackie  I'll see you all tomorrow night.
Okay then.
Bye.
Bye.
Cheerio Christine.
Okay?
Yeah I'm alright  ah.
Chilly isn't it?
.
Oh it's pedestrians I can read the sign from back there.
Mm.
it looks.
I suppose.
no there's already a pavement there.
I don't know.
Mm.
better pavement?
Possibly.
Widening the road?
Maybe  or putting in erm  that cable   cos they've dug a trench around it.
Yeah.
Putting a barbed wire fence round the  stop the   I don't know .
Yeah.
Can you turn it up again Daddy?
I still can't here it.
Well I can  and I don't wanna be deafened by it.
This man's up here selling his Christmas trees again, he's a real menace this chap.
Mhm.
No  it gets blocked though doesn't it?
Yeah  it's on a weekend when everybody comes out here to buy their trees and they're parking they're cars on the roundabout
Yeah.
mm  it gets a bit much though.
I'm glad we don't go for that  sort of tree actually.
No  I was looking at trees in er  B and Q
Yeah.
I'm not suggesting anything don't say it in that tone of voice!
It's alright no I didn't mean t .
and they had  do you know how much er a really nice  sort of six foot seven foot tree is?
No.
An artificial one from B and Q seventy nine pounds was a seven foot one 
Good grief!
sixty nine pounds was a six foot one.
Oh.
Mind they were lovely trees
Mm.
they were sort of blue spruce type, do you know what I mean?
Yeah  but
But you think ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Good grief!
I know what I'm gonna do for practical .
Oh Christine!
You made me jump then.
Yeah so did I .
I know exactly what I'm gonna do for practical .
What are you gonna do?
Exactly!
I'm gonna make this little shape of a snowman  and then I sew s sequins on it.
Oh yes that would be lovely.
She showed us one, she had a Christmas tree  and she had er  star  and tha that was the same kind of thing it's sort of 
Mm.
stuffed and then it had sequins sewn and that.
Oh that would be nice, Christine.
It'll be lovely   do that.
Sounds really nice.
Yes.
Mm.
But you've got to pay a little of money.
Well that doesn't matter.
Because
It's alright.
She said all the fabrics and sequins are fairly expensive.
They are.
Yeah.
So if you wanna take them home you've got to pay a little bit of money
Well that's alright we'll 
That's alright.
it's only about twenty  twenty, thirty, forty pee something like that.
Twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a pound  yeah I know .
No  the highest she said is about fifty pee.
Alright.
It's not much  and that's 
And that's e 
the highest   
Well that's not high.
I wonder what's happening here?
Well what's happening here is all the cars are stopped and there all  one behind the other
sorry  I  .
I'll get my own back on you!
Oh.
Oh  ha.
Oh no  somebody's in trouble.
There's been an h accident.
No there's been an accident Christine.
That's what it er  seems like  erm if there's a police car  you can bet your life  the chances are  there's gonna be another one or an ambulance  if there's been an accident.
Yeah.
This cars turned round even to go out the bottom of   there's been an accident  oh.
Mum?
Mummy?
Just take it out of gear  please  yeah?
There are pe some people are going down erm Shallard's Road.
Probably a good idea  actually well done  if er we get the chance we'll er  do the same 
Mm.
go down Shallard's Road and then we can go down er  where is it?
Oh it's up there  where is no that's the police  yeah the police cars parked down there
So if you went along Shallard's Road
and came out of Long Beach we'll miss it 
Came out of Long Beach Road we'll miss it.
Yeah  so 
Or you could go down California Road
Well that's what I  that's what I mean go down  down Shallard's Road here down 
Yeah 
from California Road
and along Long Beach 
and along the Long Beach Road
or you could carry on along California Road
I don't wanna go 
you 
past that  if it is an accident I don't wanna go past it.
If you went on down  California Road  and went down into Oldland 
by Christine's school
Oh no I'm not going all around that way.
then you could come off the roundabout from Kachenend 
avoiding the strategy.
I hope that's not what I think it is.
It's probably a road accident Christine.
Someone's been knocked down.
Did you see?
Awful lot of people standing about.
Yeah well that's because people are ghoulish  some people will stand in the road and stare.
Could be the passport.
Well if Mark Bosnich was the man of the moment in midweek the name on everyone's lips during the week during sorry during the last twenty four hours has been Bobby Gould.
Gould resigned as Coventry City's Manager within minutes of their five one thrashing at Queens Park Rangers yesterday.
He asked his Chairman for a private chat they retired to the gents and Gould who had no contract said he was finished.
This afternoon Gould insisted that he wouldn't be changing his mind.
Now he is a bit of an off the wall manager isn't he Jimmy.
I wonder if he really is serious and what's behind it?
It's odd because I was watching him on Football Focus yesterday, him and Bob Wilson, and I was trying to stay awake 
You don't watch that do you?
and and I actually succeeded.
And he looked in quite good form did Bob and he didn't look as though he had too many worries and then this happens and you wonder just whether it wasn't premeditated rather than in haste.
And I would tend to think personally that he won't be back.
So we'll see.
Well maybe he's er got a contract to appear on the media.
We'll have to see.
Possibly with you Ton.
Who knows?
Anyway there's more football coming your way on Central in midweek.
On Tuesday at eleven forty exclusive highlights from the Third Round of the Coca Cola Cup featuring Aston Villa at Sunderland.
And then on Wednesday at ten forty five more Coca Cola Cup action this time with Derby against Spurs and Manchester United against Leicester.
They top the bill.
And then again next Sunday at two fifty the Central Match Live moves onto St Andrews for Birmingham City against Milwall.
I hope it's as good a game as today's was.
Well done to David Speedy well done to Leicester City.
See you next week bye bye.

Oh did they?
I must just jump up and down on Mrs  when I see her at lunch time.
Emma, is Emma here today?
Oh she's with Mrs  is she?
I see  now we've got lots to do this morning, you're going to need to ignore what's going on behind me, ah, it's not happening, right, as I said to you at the very beginning of September I'm the star, so you pay attention to me.
That was the correct thing to do, very well though, you saw the look and you decided.
On the board this morning we're going to have a bash at thinking about some targets, we're going to have a bash think about, how you think you've done so far?
One of the two tasks that I've set you since we met in September, what are the two big tasks that we've concentrated on?
One should be in your file already and it should be finished and the other one you're going to give to me today.
Our passport and our diary
Your passports and your graphs.
There the two big pieces of work that we've done together so far, in a minute I'm going to give you a printed sheet 
We had to do, do jobs
so you owe me ten minutes and normally when you come into my room you say I'm sorry I'm late.
I'm sorry I'm late
You don't look as if you mean it, sit down please because my lesson started ten minutes ago  there's one over there Now in a minute I'm going to give you a printed sheet and it's going to ask you how well you think you're doing.
Have you been able to complete the survey on belief, have you been able to get it done by a deadline.
What does the word deadline mean?
Let's have hands up, what does the word deadline mean?
The time when it has to come in.
Yes, the time when it has to come in, the day I say I want to collect it, now you might need to say to yourself, oh dear, Mrs  said the deadline was, have I met it?
No, or yes I'm mega brilliant, yes I did meet the deadline.
Now I'm going to help you with it and what I suggest we do this morning when I give you these sheets will you please write your name and today's date at the top of the sheet and I put the date on the board, and then can you please resist the temptation to start, start writing over the rest of the sheet until I've gone through it with you.
You can certainly have a read but please resist the temptation to write on it.
Right the sheets are coming round, when you get yours, your name on it and today's date on it please, that's all, I've already punched holes in it so it's ready to go in your file  Now is there anyone who does not have one of these sheets, it says at the top year seven, module one, survey on belief.
Is there anyone who does not have a copy in front of them?
Please write your name and the date.
The date is on the board  Oh, we'll do that later that one, get you another one  good, most people seem to of done that.
If you have a look at the sheet you can see there are six sections and then on the right hand side there are two columns, one is headed up pupil the other is headed up teacher.
In a moment when I've explained what each of these sections mean, I'm going to ask you to put your signature in the column says, that says pupil.
Each time you think you have succeeded in accomplishing that task.
Now when I sign my name  that's what I do, they're my initials, that's all I need you to do.
Now you might decide that you want to put, I don't know F B, Fred Bloggs like that, that's fine, you do not need to write your full name.
A simple signature is fine, and then I, when I'm satisfied that I have seen that work in your file done in the way you say you've done it, I will sign the teacher column on your sheet  Okay, let's start going down these six sections.
Section one says, now for this everybody we're thinking about the survey you did in the form room, from which you did your graphs, saying to people do you believe in god, have you visited a place of worship, is everyone clear about the piece of work we're thinking about, speak to me.
Yes
Yes, good.
I didn't do it
You didn't do the class survey?
Really
because I was away
You were away for all of it?
In which case it would be pretty silly to fill that in wouldn't it?
Pretty silly, because you haven't done that piece of work, so perhaps what you would like to do if you would like to follow it with us, then I will give you back, I think I might have your survey here, and you can at least see what we've been talking about and then on that we can write absent for this piece of work, does that make sense, good.
Everybody else then, number, section one  Can you collect information for use in a class  Now we've got several ways of doing this, first of all, were you able to collect information for the class survey, whoever's fiddling with a pen please don't, it's driving me nuts.
Could you collect information for the class survey?
Were you able in other words to go round and talk to people to get their answers and record your answers on their grid, if you think yes you did do that, sign your name now, in section one, where it says survey.
If you don't think you can do it, then I'd leave it blank if I were you, cos otherwise you're telling fibs aren't you?
Who thinks they were able to collect information for the survey?
Hands up, oh brilliant, boys you not sure?
No
Not sure, okay, hands down everybody.
What are you not sure about?
I didn't get all the names
Right, so you had a problem getting everybody's name, what problem did you have?
The same as Malcolm
You had the same problem as Malcolm, so, would it be fair to sign that or would it be more sensible to leave it blank?
Leave it blank
Why?
Because we didn't finish it
Right, that makes sense, good, sensible.
I, I, I, I did it, but I only missed out the two people that were away.
Right, so, it wasn't your fault that they were away was it?
So did you do the survey?
Did it.
So what you gonna do?
Sign it.
Brilliant, you're gonna sign it, brilliant.
Right next part of section one,did you collect the information  by the deadline  which means were you able to complete it in your form time with your form tutor and bring it to the lesson so that you could start on the s on the graph.
You have a think about it, if you think yes I did, I spoke to everybody, I got their answers and I was able to bring that sheet to Mrs  lesson, sign it.
Did you think mm, no, I had one or two names I left off, I was too busy doing something else, I was away, then you can't sign it can you?
Because you did not meet the deadline and you've just told me that deadline means the day I said I wanted it.
Everybody okay with that?
Yeah
Speak to me
Yes
I was away, but I completed it, so
By the deadline?
Sign it.
Okay, third part  did you collect the information after the deadline  if you did, sign it.
If you didn't, if you met the deadline leave it blank, only you know the answer to that.
Next one  I did not complete the survey  not because people were away, if people were absent that's not your fault, what reasons might there be for you not completing the survey, hands up 
I didn't get time to go round all the people
You didn't get time to go round to everybody, that's one, you were too busy chatting the girls up, yeah
others
I was away
I was away, I, I was absent, so sign it.
Any more
I done most of them but I left the sheet at home in my coat.
I did most of them but then I left the sheet at home, sign that bit.
Right, yes, so you weren't able to complete it because you left the things at home, you weren't very well organized, okay, so sign that part.
Shall I sign it, er cos I didn't get all the names?
Yes, anybody else not sure, please don't write on your pencil case.
Anybody else not sure?
Okay, we've done section one, well done.
Section two, oh big word here, collate.
I can collate information and present the information as a table .
What on earth do you think the word collate means?
It's a very sort of secondary school type word isn't it?
Is it to collect all the information you've got
It does mean collect, sort of, er, you're talking to me everybody, it does sort of mean collect, anybody else?
Collate  means not only collect together but organize it.
Do you remember the tallies we did?
Yeah
We were collating, so I can collate the information and present the information as a table, how many of you were able to do the tallies?
Brilliant, sign it.
Number three   I can present information in graph form   who's been able to do a bar graph?
I've done a bit of one
Who's been able to do a bar graph?
Brilliant, sign it  who did pictures to go with their bar graph?
Sign it, so there should be two signatures in that little bit of number three.
You did a graph and you did pictures, if you did the graph one signature, if you did pictures another signature and shall we say, what are we going to call pictures?
What are we going to call that, illustrations, is the word, what are we going to say is acceptable as an illustration?
Hands up, give me some suggestions  no ideas
Decorate them
Decorated accounts for illustrated, pictures, patterns, colours, you filled in all the space, that's illustrated as far as I'm concerned.
Did you work as a member of a group , now what do you think that means?
Oops sorry, bash you on the bonce, no it's my album
Did you work in a group?
To do what?
To do the graph
Mm  some people decided they were going to work as a, as a group on their table, to gather information and when you were doing the tallies last week, you helped each other didn't you, some of you helped, you were talking to one another to help make sure that you got the right number of tallies, if you worked with some other people to get the survey questions and do the tallies, sign it, if you did everything on your own, leave it blank  is anyone not sure what to do there?
I helped you.
Oh I don't want the arguments of about who was helped, okay you carry on, you argue, that's alright  number five, read it and then somebody tell me what it means.
Read it, number five, and someone 
What 
tell me what it means, you've got some secondary school type words there as well it says  has been co-operative and helpful in the classroom .
Co-operative, have you worked with other people, as a team, as a pair, have you been pleasant and helpful, have you been a pain in the neck?
Now if you think you have been pleasant and helpful, you've shared things with somebody, if they asked you a question you didn't bang them on the head, you helped, sign it  now we come to the real sixty thousand point question, are you ready for this?
Are you really ready for this?
Yeah
I'm not sure,has produced all homework, all homework on time  if you think yes I have, sign it, if you think no I haven't, there's a bit sitting at home and I'm gonna give it in tomorrow, no you haven't have you?
You haven't, if you've got it all in on time, you've brought it all to this and you haven't come out to me saying oh I'm really sorry can I bring it tomorrow, oh I really wasn't sure, oh 
Miss you know the graph we done where we were
if it wasn't completed and we still bring it in can we write it down or?
Well would you say then that you had finished the homework task on time?
No
You've answered your own question.
Miss
I didn't set a deadline for that though did I?
Any more Andrew
Miss I done it, but I left it at home.
So, have you done it for the deadline?
Have I got it in my hand today?
You've answered your own question  okay, you're doing well, now, on the board, can you all look at the board please, shh, lips together, er  thank you, look at the board, not this bit, that's not for you, this bit, this is your bit this morning.
Targets, give me another name for a target, hands up, another name for a target.
Er, aim
Aim, that's a good word, aim, more
Achievement
Achievement, I think you might say an achievement is when you reach the target, that's been an achievement, yeah.
Another word for a target, we have aim, goal perhaps is one we could use.
Yeah.
Now at the bottom of your sheet, shh, shh, I, there are two boxes, one is for me to scribble in, the other one is for you to write neatly in, I'm the only one here who's allowed to scribble.
I would improve this work by, in front of you this morning, most of you have got your graph.
The bar chart that was the result of the survey we did  you need to look at that piece of work and ask yourself a question, is this piece of work the best thing I have ever done?
If the answer is no, then you need to think about how you could improve that piece of work, somebody is speaking  now it's bad enough you owe me ten minutes  if it's not the best piece of work you've ever done, why isn't it?
Now have a look at the work now, hands up and see if you could tell me, just looking at your work, is there some way you could of improved it.
If I said right you've got a second chance this morning, how could you improve that piece of work in front of you now.
Handwriting.
Handwriting, I could make my handwriting neater, larger, I could try joining my handwriting have the letters joined, some people are still more comfortable printing in year seven.
Illustrations.
Illustrations, I could put some illustrations in, I could use more, I could use colour, I could make more detailed illustrations, yes 
Spelling.
Spelling, I could have improved this work by checking the spelling carefully with a dictionary.
I could of improved this spelling by engaging my brain when I did my homework doing it on my lap in front of Neighbours.
How else could you improve that piece of work?
By colouring
You could use far more colour, make it bright and cheerful, make it yell at me, come on Mrs  mark me, I dare you.
Erm you could of underline down by the bottom
Did you underline the dates, titles?
Did you put your name on it or have you done an anonymous piece of homework?
Now, on the board I have listed some possible targets.
You are going to decide now, by looking at your graph how you could improve this piece of work and I want you to write the target you decide on, it could be more than one, in the space that says  I would improve this work by , you're to write that now please, off you go  and while you're doing that let's get the register done, shh, shh  shh, shh  Sarah
Here Miss
Malcolm
Here Miss
Dawn
Here Miss
Shaun
Yes Miss
David
Yes
Rachael
Yes
Emma
Yes Miss
Emma
Yes Miss
Eleanor
Yes Miss
Ian
Yes Miss
Joanne
Yes Miss
Aaron
Yes Miss
Heidi
Yes Miss
Paul
Yes Miss
David
Yes Miss
Carl
Yes Miss
John
Yes Miss
Kylie
Yes Miss
Jodie
Yes Miss
Jonathan
Yes Miss
Sara
Yes Miss
Gemma
Yes Miss
Sabrina
Miss
Hannah
Here Miss
Andrew
Here Miss
Keith
Here Miss
Nick
Here Miss
Ann, Karen
Here Miss
Shaun
Here Miss 
Has everyone done that then?
Right   Is that a word you want on the board?
Concentration, here we go, okay
Long word
Long word, big word, secondary school word  
How do you spell demonstration Miss?
It's on your chart  Can I just write this on the wall, then I'll come back  Right, pens down everybody then please, pens down  who's feeling very brave this morning?
Me
You could live to regret this, hands down, hands down.
Right, you're feeling very brave would you like to read out for us what your targets are
Go on, big voice
Not crossing out, spelling, getting my homework in on time, asking for help when I'm not sure and presentation
They're biggies to go for, how many was that altogether?
Five
Five, ooh five, and you've got witnesses now and it's been recorded.
Who else is feeling brave?
Who else is feeling brave?
Oh suddenly we're all cowards, go on go for it, what's yours?
Big voice
More tidy illustrations, and better handwriting I could underline my titles.
Right so you're only ask that you didn't underline and that your illustrations could be better as well and the handwriting is a bit spidery, right, good, brave, right, go on
I could have wrote better
Oh shout at me I'm a bit deaf over here 
I could have wrote better, I could of done much better illustrations
Right, so you could of written, when you say you could of written better, what do you mean?
Hand write better
So you could, the handwriting could of been neater, fine and then you want to pay some attention to your illustrations in the future, that's good, come on then shout at me, it's the only time you're allowed.
None of the crossing out, handwriting,org organizing my homework so it is handed in on time 
So homework hasn't, always in on time, okay that's very brave cos you know that's the death penalty hand, having hand, what do I do when, when you don't hand homework in?
I'm gonna jump up and down on you aren't I?
Throw us out the window
Out the window, absolutely, right come on then, shout, shh
Do better illustrations and colour it, colour it in a lot neater
Right, so, better pictures, more colour, good, one more
I put down more concentration
And getting my homework in on time
Yeah
Mm  yes, well I think they sound like good targets, is, has anyone looked at their work and said I worked my socks off for that, I could not have improved it, I've left that section blank  so everybody thinks they could of improved that piece of work, good, that's what this is all about, getting better.
Right, will you please put your  assessment sheet, which is what we have done and your graph together  and put them in the centre of the table, at the end of the lesson I'm going to have those in  centre of the table  no I don't want those, they go in your file.
Ah, I don't need you to come out, put the things I'm going to have in the centre of the table  Right, let's have you quiet again then, shh  shh, I want you to listen  shh, I want you to listen  Big boys will you read that first one, big boys, loudly, I want everyone to hear it.
Now, sit down, pen down please, you want to listen, now to do this, no fidgeting  pens should be down and you should be concentrating  there are going to be three pieces of writing done by people your age and a bit older, that you are going to listen to.
Later you are going to have an opportunity to do some writing similar to the pieces you have heard, however, if you have been fidgeting and not concentrating, you won't know what to do  big boys.
I wonder why people are here on earth.
I wonder why they haven't burnt.
I wonder what is the point of living.
Why are we talking, taking and why are we giving.
These are the questions to the puzzled men, man.
Why the world's here, why it began.
Why are there wars and why do we fight.
Why are there things wrong and why are things right.
These ultimate questions have puzzled us so, what are the answers does anyone know?
Why is there living and why is there dying, why is some people laughing and why is some, some people crying.
Why some countries rich and some countries poor, what is this thing life and what's in it for us and what's it all for.
Is there a heaven up in the sky and wh why, where do we all go when we die 
Thank you
Paula 
Thank you,
thirteen
Thank you, and that's written by a thirteen year old  pretty good ah, let's have a male voice amongst all of this.
Get yourself here  big boys and that one.
If I ruled the world everyone would sing and shout, war and bombs are the things I would throw out.
Little children need to starve no more as I would give them a big food store.
A house for everyone to live in is something else I would give them.
Rain and cold weather would be sent away I would order it to be a hot sunny day.
Christmas, Christmas would be twice a year so we could have lots of good cheer.
There's lots of things I wouldn't like to do if I ruled the world how about you ?
And who wrote that?
Justine  eight.
Eight, thank you  eight   I believe in love, it comes from above, I believe in Santa Claus, every year he does his chores.
I believe in fairies, they flutter like canaries  I believe in make believe and I believe in  what do you believe ?
You've had two and a bit examples, a thirteen year old with their questions about life, what's it all for, who put us here and what on earth did they put us here for.
An eight year old, if I ruled the world, if I was in charge this is how I would organize things and then and I believe, what I believe in.
What I want you to do between now and the end of the lesson, ah, wait for it, in your rough books, ah  I want you to start writing down ideas of the things that are important to you, but before we do that, let's just have a few starters on the board, let's have some hands up.
Put your hand up and give me an idea of some of the things you think are important  what do you believe  I believe  do you
Yes
Okay, so would it be fair to say some people would want to put that down?
I believe in god  are there any other things, what do you believe?
I believe that Mark Hall is the best school in Harlow
Yeah
Yeah
No
Well okay, some people were a bit iffy about that  What else do you believe in?
Shh  Steven  doesn't believe in anything  shh  well you're silent
Being silent 
Is nothing important to you, don't be smart with me  is nothing important.
Is there nothing you would like to organize, is there nothing you would like to change about the world, the planet, think 
People don't have enough food
So what would, how would you like to say that?
How can you
I believe if, we make an effort  we can give people food.
Did you get this, by, by the way did you get the information yesterday about collecting the bar codes?
One and a half million
One and a half million saves a six year old little boy's life in a London hospital.
I believe everybody in Mark Hall is capable of achieving that target.
There's my box see if you can fill it.
Okay let's go back to the I believe, what other things would you like to alter to sort out?
I believe the children should have their way once in a while
Once in a while, once
in a while
once, no once, I'm not buying that at all.
I believe children, I'm not, I don't like writing this, children er should have, say it again
Have a fair trial
er
a fair trail now and
er, no, a fair
trial now and again
trial or a fair try?
Trial
trial
Trial of what?
Always, a fair trial now and again
A fair trial now and again
Every day
No, no
No, every day, every day
Once er, any more, shh, shh, I'm not writing every day, if you want to alter it you might need to
Children should be able to drive
Yes
What did he say?
Children should be able to drive
What did he say?
He said I believe children should be able to drive, I think we are now getting 
Yeah, yeah 
into the realms of fantasy  erm  just shh, shh, I won't add any more
I won't add any more to the board because I think you're starting to get the idea, but one or two others I want you to think about, I believe animals should not be experimented upon for make-up, I believe everybody should be treated with respect.
That seems reasonable doesn't it, for a Wednesday it seems reasonable.
I believe  I believe Mrs  when she says she'll jump up and down on my head if I get my homework in late.
I believe  children shh, should not be abused, I believe teachers should not be abused, mm.
Now in your rough books please, start listing all things that you would like changed that you believe are right, that you believe
Shh, shh go on now, start writing  How long have you got to do this?
Well I
It's a heck of a time isn't it to let
How many of you are involved in doing it?
It takes
But it's not your job then to start
really so why, why does it go to the next
and, so, so these are clear words 
What, what the aim
Yes, you're never gonna get to college, you're never gonna get A, you're never gonna get your A levels
No, no, it's the necessity before, you know, the university of life is a great teacher, you know, but erm take it while you need it, but in the meantime erm there's a great deal more out there.
Mm
And while we're on about it why haven't I seen you
somewhere
oh make my
I always think this is February
Yes
being ill, come back to work until he's
So, so, when 
Erm Friday
I knew yesterday morning
yes and what, what have you got?
Those who you're going to
I know that when the person who was doing this
it wasn't going to be appropriate
Yeah that's why it got probably
Mm, it might be that she's got
Then when
It's daft isn't it, yeah
How many have you got girls?
One
One, what is it, it'd better be a good one
pollution, drug abuse, theft, murder erm the way you're treated by adults, the way we treat one another, equality, no racism, violence, riots, everybody should have a right to an education, everybody should have the right to have their, their teeth filled when they need it, and teachers deserve more pay and more , it's only for instance 
one 
no he left erm
he left about two years ago, he's at
which I think is that way
He must of left just after I did
Yeah and then she left  I think
he works part time in a sixth form college
there's nothing he can get out of it 
No that's right, but erm, if you want a coffee
No that's alright
Shh, shh, erm I can hear squealers, I believe squealers are working 
Miss  David 
A course
but I know that quite often they
whenever they hear about they automatically
no, not in the least, good, fine,
that's lovely, there's no, it's not a 
pardon
Er, judging by the noise I can hear some people have finished, some people have extremely short statements of about what they think is important and some people have got no statements.
Who's got  five different things they think they are important, they would like to change, they would like to stay the same, who's got more than five, more than five?
Not many, hands down, not enough.
Planners out 
Miss are we doing this?
Miss
Yes  this is brilliant my goodness, you come to school and you're doing something brilliant, we can't have that
up to fifty, my goodness, you'll be working for a fortnight
No, let David, he,
Right planners, now according to me  this is for  Thursday, next Thursday week t week one Thursday so homework  for Thursday  finish  writing  a list er whoever's giggling will you calm down  of things  you believe  are important  do this in rough  and I think we'd better underline the next bit, bring it to the lesson  now, quite seriously if you have only managed to get five or six items at the moment on your list that you think are important, that's not enough, you really do need to be going for a minimum of ten, and if you can't then the next piece of work that we're going to do in the lesson next week is going to be quite difficult.
I'm going to bring in some illuminated medieval books for you to have a look at, because what you're going to do is to write this out in best on special paper using illuminated letters and if you're very good we will try to get them laminated so that we can keep them as an example of what year seven students can produce as their best work, to say to everybody, hey look at this, this is very good, now we can't do that if I give you a sheet of A four paper and you manage to fill less than a quarter of that space, so you're going to need a minimum of ten different things that you would like to say you think are important, you believe are important, you believe they're valuable and your homework over the next week is to finish that list  if you want it to rhyme, well yes you can work on it to make it rhyme, if you want to have what we call rhyming couplet,er just one moment   I haven't said clear away.
I have not said clear away, it is not the end of the lesson  and some of you have not worked hard enough to make the end of the lesson  now if you don't want to make the whole poem rhyme, what you might want to do is to put two lines together at a time and have those rhyming, paired rhymes, rhyming couplets, you can do that.
And what you might need to start thinking about as well is how could you illustrate some of these, already around you in the room, going up, work from year nine where they have started writing that as a complaint to god, moaning about Hurricane Andrew, about earthquakes and floods and so on and they've decided that they're going to illustrate the work they're doing with these paper cuttings of disasters and problems in the world, there's one up here about a gorilla that's been taken from the wild and is in captivity in London Zoo and they said that they think it's wrong.
You need to have a think during the next week about how you can illustrate the lists that you're drawing together, are you going to use newspaper cuttings?
Are you going to do your own drawings?
Are you going to do photographs?
What are you going to do?
If you've said you've, that you think you believe  whales and dolphins should not be hunted then perhaps you can find a photograph showing those creatures swimming in the open ocean, something to think about.
Are there any questions about that homework?
Is there anyone who doesn't understand what they have got to go home and do?
Are you sure?
Speak to me
Yes
Okay, right, one person from each table, will you please bring me the homework graph and the sheet that you filled out, the assessment sheet.
One person from each table  yes, thank you  are there any more?
Right can one person from each table please bring me the red files  Boys can I have your red files please  What was that?
Was that one of your I believes?
What was that?
Er, right, shh  shh  er right people, shh  er you might find that once you start thinking about what you actually believe, it gets quite complicated  I just want you to listen to this.
Dear god, everything is so wrong, look, it took you six days to make the world, but does it say in the bible that it took you fifteen days to design it, oh no you just got up and decided to make the world.
When you saw what a disaster you had caused, you could of started again and taken some time, oh sorry I forgot that's not godlike, you probably didn't want to know or is it that you enjoy what you made, a sort of entertainment, better than Home and Away, watching wars and diseases and things.
Here are but three mistakes of your career, you would of at least think entering the world would be safe enough, but even that has its dangers.
You could be born disabled, diseased or dead.
If your so called parents decided to have an abortion that's it, you're history, you never got a chance or a choice.
A nice night's sleep seems like a nice change, but nightmares have habits of popping up, once when I was five I had a dream that my friends and I were being ripped apart and eaten by a giant, now when the time comes to go into that great big C D tea room in the sky, could you change something?
What have drowning, suffocating, bleeding and being run over by a steam roller got in common?
They're all painful
Could our bodies glow red when we only have a day left so we could all sit down and wait comfortably and then when we snuff it we could just disappear .
And it goes on.
Now some of you were nodding there and some of you were smiling, it might be that you actually would quite like to say you know that I believe it's wrong for people to be born disabled, handicapped.
That year nine student has got quite a lot to say, has written a very nice letter of complaint to god, bending god's ear, say just one minute god.
You need to have a think about those things as well.
You did very well this morning, will you quietly stand.
Okay one table  two table 
David wait up 

Erm, I mean I don't mind
No
I think I put your ideas up cos I wanna get that done, bit 
Er I'd be perfectly happy if that was er
Right, no problem, jolly good, erm  
This one  er what's, what's going on, he said well what I been  called for
Mhm
have them turned on, er and that's it, well   This school 
And he's asked to put another one on, for this morning
No, no
I said er,if we get the rest up we'll  in the vicinity was obviously not unusual 
Well I suggest we have a bit beautiful
a bit chilly the weather might 
There's better for your 
Yes
Good
I know I just  I don't know why  it's too much  coming her to discuss 
Yeah
and they just drum it in  wants to know, I know what he's  when he, when he  or
That is, well it's central
Well I hope we will get something
Mm, mm
and that's been
Right, I've got you
You know he borrowed the hairbrush from me, he brought it back in this
Did he?
Would you rescue it for me?
Yes it would be a
It should stay clean when
Ah, yeah 
Are you sure?
yes
right
Probably today I ought to start moving the erm, the electrics into the strong room, into here
Yeah, be alright.
Is that alright?
Yeah, fine
So that I take
there's a lot of work to do
Mm, mm, well, erm,
Well, what'll, tomorrow?
Tomorrow I can do it
Yeah, erm, I'll put some
about half ten
Yeah, today?
tomorrow 
tomorrow , right
so what if
Yeah,
that'll help
Right, got me
gotta stop at half past ten
ah, I'll give you a shout
Yeah
and go straight in
excellent
okay
okay
er does it want to be
Yes, yes it does
Yeah, for both of us?
Right, the  control panel erm sort of built in
and erm
sixty watt, two hundred and sixty watt from
well if you get three amps we can  have that er, that
manage it to go from
yes
Yes, I'll put that one down, I'll put that one down, there, I've got er
I've got to clear up
erm 

You could assess them on on  on that, and just say right I I think you're a  and A or a B  on this particular booklet.
Mhm.
Because I've done it, with you.
I mean, that's no reason, but we shouldn't be sort of saying, well look let's not, lets all not do this booklet now 
Mm.
and I think it's something that we ourselves  should look at.
Yeah, I I just wondered because there are some of them that don't have any relevance to national curriculum and I want to 
Why?
I just thought maybe, you know, sort of miss them out  do level one.
Do another type?
Do level one and level two, the ones that you you have to do  and if there's any time left at the end of the year do the ones that  that you missed out.
That are left , aha.
Yeah!
You know that
Ah
you know are, are non-essential.
I'm sure that, would the would they be flexible and and and look at, I mean certain things  you know  rhombus and parallelogram.
Yeah.
Do you really feel 
It's just that 
that that's  terribly 
Yeah.
important?
And it,the there are some of the extension   that are much more appropriate.
Yes, we don't, yes 
And some of the children never ever get to the extension booklets!
Have you  do you think it  it might be better for some of the brighter ones to stretch them, to go through the whole  lot  do you know what I mean?
Instead of just doing all of one A  you know how yo , how you follow the the  the map?
Yeah.
To do, go through and do the extensions at the same time, follow the topic straight 
Mhm.
through.
It would be 
Do you think they would 
Sometimes it is, yes.
It would be  it would be better for them than doing all the extensions together  cos doing all the extension booklets 
I know.
together is really hard!
I don't think it it is 
It's hard.
and it's erm  I don't 
Mhm.
think it's very meaningful to them.
Yeah.
What I've, what I've tended to do is to do two B and two E
Together?
together.
Mhm.
That mi , that might be more 
Aha.
sensible.
Well I haven't, you see but I I've thought about it and thought 
Yeah 
it would be a good 
I've done 
idea.
I've done that, cos what I've said to them is well it's, it's too much for you to do all the extensions together.
Mhm.
Mhm.
Mhm.
If you do two B and two E, and two E and three A.
Mm.
Mhm.
And mix them.
Yes, so you, you would you would look 
Cos three A's easy isn't it?
Ooh , ooh yes!
You would look at one A and one B
Well that's it, they find that 
probably together 
a doddle don't they?
would you?
After doing er
Oh!
Sorry?
One A and one B so so yo yo or or would you have all of yours completing one A before they started on one B?
Well  have you got 
Or do you 
that map?
Is it in there  or not, the map?
Yeah it's in it's in that  the that.
one.
You know, the map that we've got all  or not?
There.
You mean with all the
Aye, it's not in there is it?
Aye, the one that, the one that we printed out.
Is it?
Yeah, that's it!
No, that's er
It doesn't give all them  
No, it doesn't.
Er 
Mm.
I don't know where the map came from originally 
Mhm.
but it wasn't in this book.
Well the , I me , it does follow across doesn't it?
Yes.
From one A  one B
That's two A, two B 
That's it.
and two E, so that 
That's right , yeah 
that shows that one.
Mhm.
Yes, you see  the  the they're suggesting that when you've done area one  that you might like to
Aha.
go on to multiplicational area.
Aha.
And that, if you've done  erm  bum bum bum  digging into history  that you could do coordinates and coordinate patterns.
Mhm.
Well it's, it's not so much a suggestion it's more that you can't do multiplicational area until 
Oh yes!
you've done area one 
Aha.
isn't it?
Yes.
Yeah.
But I think the link-up is suggesting that 
Mm.
you could 
Yeah.
just  follow on there.
Mhm.
So really the they're working on the whole scheme then  er
Well
from one to four aren't they?
Some 
A 
of them, do you think it'll
I I tend 
create problems
I tend to sa sa to say right  you know, one A and one B  are all out together.
Oh yes, that 
but 
that's  but once they start 
well I didn't used to, I used to have one A at the beginning  but of course, it was impractical because the there weren't enough booklets to go round.
Well  I mean a all the reasonable kids  don't do  all 
No.
the numbers one, two, three, four, five anyway.
So 
No 
that's
but you still have to take care in case somebody says well I've just done fractions two, and you say but  you haven't done fractions 
Yeah!
one!
You know !
Aha.
Mhm.
Yeah, but I mean the bright ones do the  the bypass sheet  they have the fractions one, and they 
The fractions and the 
don't do that either!
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah and if you block it all  you're gonna get some kids who will never  go beyond number.
Yes, the ma , the ma 
They won't experience
They might
and they 
No.
might concentrate 
No, I me yes, no, it's not practical to do the whole lot but to erm
But, well certainly lo one and two you could couldn't 
Mhm.
you?
Mhm.
See, you just use your own judgements, some 
Yeah.
some kids, you know
I mean I do I don't think that as a department 
Depends on the ability of the child.
we should start saying this is what we all do.
Yeah.
We we do 
Mhm.
Mhm.
what we feel  we want them to do and 
Mhm.
what see it seems   
I think it, this is whole scheme is just a case experimenting and trying things  with different work 
By the time we ge 
By the time we get it right 
Yes, after about ten years !
the scheme will be redundant or we'll have retired at 
That's right !
you know, but er  that's what it's all about.
Yes, you'll go 
and somebody'll come in a say, oh I don't like this  and get rid of it !
Yes, when I retire somebody'll say well we're gonna do, smile now!
So you're not bothered if at the end of  the two years they haven't  even 
Reached level four 
the best kids haven't reached level four?
Because 
I would 
have  working three lessons a week  some of mine are scarce, sort of struggle to onto four.
Mhm.
I'm not saying that I wouldn't say 
Mhm.
I'm not bothered but I would be happier if  they will  very familiar with the work that they have done
Mhm.
rather than 
Mhm.
race through 
But you might find that it's 
the booklet.
it's  easier because you missed some booklets out,.
Yeah.
You wi they will have had support  and yo you might say we're gonna miss  little things out that  we've already covered on or are not relevant anyway  erm  I think we've just gotta wa , just got to see how it works  and
A are we going to decide  what we think can be missed out?
No, I think, I think 
No,, yeah.
I think you yourself can decide what you want to miss out.
From what you've taught in that third lesson 
Alright.
really isn't it, a lot of it?
So,we we're looking there at a a a reasonable amount of  sort of  extra work but I I think we will find a benefit   from doing that.
Mm.
I say, we might 
Part 
if we sort through all the work sheets we've got we might find  you know
So 
Yes.
some 
quite a few
Are we going to try and get some work sheets?
I think one of our first 
that we can  we can 
jobs 
all use.
Yeah.
Mm.
Are we also going to try and match those up with the attainment targets, so that we can say they've completed  a work sheet successfully?
Mhm.
Yes.
We can give them something.
Yes , we'll put that on  mhm.
Put it on their record?
Yes.
And we could, if we've gotta collect evidence we could use those work sheets as evidence.
Mhm.
And we've also got
Mhm.
yes,we we've got to look at this  in in in  in the assessment er  procedures as well but we've go we've got to try and link this up with er the  the the computer work that we're doing  erm  we we've got I I I think really we we should have  possibly a reasonably hefty session one evening next week to say right, how are we going to put this into practice?
Let's, you know  I mean Judith's saying, well I've got some good work sheets on this, I mean we can all say that  if we  all know where the work sheets are
Mhm  I think hoiked most of mine !
No but
I think I've cleared 
Mine are pretty dog-eared
Well yes, yes I've think I've had 
Oh I've got loads!
I had a damn good clear out I think most of mine have gone.
Hundreds!
I might have a copy of some.
Well it seems pretty pointless, me sort of saying oh here, you know, they're never gonna get the hang of negative numbers and Judith saying, oh I've got an excellent work sheet, and you think well, you know
Mm.
if I'd known about that that would of great!
Mm.
I think if we all know what's available it would, it would be a lot easier than, than just operating as as  you know, five separate units.
Oh yes, I think so  for that, and, so then we've gotta bank our work sheets
Mhm.
what we keep in the  then, just all to use.
I mean it's not gonna be, it's not gonna be easy but  if we start developing it erm  there's no reason 
Mhm.
why  you know, it shouldn't work reasonably well.
Go and get my  down and get a bit more room.
Right, well we've only got erm  not much more than ten minutes left  erm, I'm ri I'm  well we've got to be  we've got to be early for lunch so  you'll need to go 
It's only across there!
Take us ten minutes 
you'll need to go 
to walk there.
and shower and such like.
And change !
Well you can stay here till twenty five past if you want  that's up to you!
Erm  am I right in thinking 
that this after , that this afternoon  your
I'm, I'm technology for the rest of the
right.
for the two days  
And I'm somewhere else.
It's just us two  we're gonna do 
and you're 
our assessment  
you're looking at  graduated assessment?
Mhm.
Okay.
You won't be around  for  the other sessions
No  that's me finished.
aye, is 
and I'm not  
how many sessions are there this after ,da do we have a session together this afternoon or not?
Yes.
Yeah.
Well yo you're  not  just  just the three of us.
Is there only one session this afternoon?
Mhm.
Two  there's the one with  Judith and I  and then  you join us  for the last session.
Right  that's fine then!
So we'll sta er you do erm  graduated assessment this afternoon, then we'll start looking at  erm, our assessment procedures  we , you know  S M P national curriculum  and I mean, if you're not around  you know  well  
I can't do the presentation.
you know 
Aye.
What presentation?
Aye.
Don't know about a presentation.
Yeah, I don't anything about a presentation.
Mhm, well you will when you're sitting in front of the staff tomorrow so don't
So erm  you know,wha what else do we feel  I mean,tha that's  that will take up this afternoon,wha what else do we feel is  you know  vitally  er, important
Ooh, how about a jacuzzi?
so I should remember remember that there's a, you know it 
Having a jacuzzi!
I do ju hey !
There you are.
That's Judith  er er speaking jacuzzi first!
Wasn't me!
The head, the head  has said he wants er  a duplicate copy of this!
Has he?
He he's slipped 
Right.
me a few quid to give him and what have you!
Right Judith the ja jacuzzi for Judith, right.
Erm  well in actual fact er  S M 
you know, S M P er erm  national curriculum is is  gonna take us  an  
Forever!
Mm.
so
Well look, if if  you're wanting the next thing to do, I mean you've done that for seventh year
Aha  yes.
Is it not worth sitting and thinking what you're gonna do with the eighth year?
Some of the things for eighth year, oh yes!
Yes,
Yes.
But I do I think  that would be very useful  but we've got to make sure that we get this assessment  started, so, if we don't get round to eighth year  then that's tough!
Mhm.
We've got seventh year, sorted  erm  I think we've gotta look at the assessment.
Now,we while you're here  you know wha just to sort of ten minutes  erm  I mean Ian's produced these  sheets
Yep.
which we can photocopy
Mhm.
now now basically what we're thinking is  that  no, we're not thinking, we haven't really got round to that!
But I I would feel that that 
you know we we must be talking about July  when we sh when we present, when we produce  erm  one of these pieces of paper.
For the present year seven?
And eight 
Yeah.
or just 
Yeah 
seven?
Seven and eight.
Sorry , one of these pieces of paper?
Well one of these records.
National curriculum records.
Oh right!
Now, I don't know whether  what other people would, would say about doing it the way we're suggesting  like  somebody has completed  levels  one A, one B, and two A, therefore they've got this and perhaps 
Mm.
a few odds and ends added to it?
You're wanting to produce a certificate for the kids is that what you're talking about?
Well, not a certificate, just a record 
No just our records!
just the national curriculum
Just a record!
They're records!
record sheet!
Who, haven't got it .
You not seen them?
No.
Ah!
Oh !
Look at this, straight in the briefcase 
Oh!
and it's there!
No it's not!
Oh I've got my national curriculum in here as well!
Erm
Did you hear, that was Alan just  making it 
I wondered where that had gone!
Hadn't I lost it, no?
No, I did definitely bring it.
Well look  why don't you just  sketch it out on there so I know the sort of thing that yo oh, you've got one have you?
Ian's got me one!
Hey, Ian I'm glad somebody's organised!
Oh!
Do you want the old one or the new one?
The newer one.
Right.
Right  yeah, I knew 
This is it.
that you'd done that because I started it as well on the computer
Right  well I've done it  all the way through.
Right fine.
Right up there to the yellow books.
Right.
So what are you wanting from me?
Right, so wha what we're looking at  is  you know  we we would have  that
Mhm.
now, you're gonna get anybody with that, but let's suppose that you did have somebody that was really  there  we  want that blacked out really
Mhm.
and we would need to have national curriculum, name, date  and so on which 
Mhm.
I mean, just a few odds and ends that you could do from your  nice 
Mhm.
printing on the computer
Mhm.
now, what we would say like, if somebody has erm  you know, by the end of year seven  done that
Yeah.
right, this would be the national curriculum record so we'd have something, but I don't know that it's wise  to 
No.
to really have that in to say look you know, to make it that obvious.
Well I mean that wasn't in for that reason.
No.
It's not
Oh yeah!
I wasn't thinking ahead to a final document.
S so we would look at that  and you would need as well to be looking at 
Blacking in  what, levels one 
li 
and two 
little bits
and anything else that  we
and anything else
we're saying that 
there 
we're going to cover
Aha.
on there.
But  I mean when you think how long it was taking us  taking a blank one of, and I know the 
One of them.
attainment targets have changed, but a blank one of those, and colouring the damn, ooh sorry Pete!
The er, things in erm  you know, I mean, that was horrendous!
Why?
Well it was me that did that 
in the first place 
Yes.
for the other one so I know!
It has to be remembered as well that this is my interpretation of the blurb that S M P have sent out.
We're happy with your 
Because 
interpretation.
I mean  the first time at a lower level  something appeared, I shaded half a square
That's what I 
Yeah!
did!
and next time it appeared 
Yeah.
I shaded the full square 
Yeah.
in, now whether that's right or not I don't 
That's 
know.
that's what I did, and I I thought the same thing.
Really, what we needed to do was to read through make sure that it was covered adequately  but on the other hand, if they've come across something  twice  and  not if i , if it was in brackets I didn't count it, did you do 
Mm.
that as well?
If it was just in brackets then I ignored it 
Yeah.
it had to appear twice properly 
Aha.
before I coloured it in.
Yes, I mean the other thing is if we are absolutely honest, which we shouldn't be with a microphone in front of us but, if we're absolutely honest, you know  this, this is a bit of work that we're trying to make simple
Aha.
when is anybody going to come  and make use of that?
The o the only thing is  that when the kids do the sats
Yes.
Right?
Aha.
And they are given a level from the sats  how are you going to record that on there?
Mm.
And how are you going to record  ar are you still  you see, you can't use colours, if you're gonna do it that 
So 
way
this would just be dated  and then  er, by year nine  they would have  er, a nineteen ninety three one, a nineteen ninety four one, and nineteen ninety five one.
Right, so you need a year as well?
You're going a 
Really that you need a space for dates.
Are you going to explain to me this afternoon how this works are you?
Well if they've finished one A, you photocopy that.
If they've finished level one A. 
You give them one of them.
You photocopy that with their name on.
Oh!
Oh, well that's good!
If they've finished one 
Yeah?
B, you photocopy that and put their name on.
But we're not, but we're not going to da , we're going to do it one by one  next July you will say where is a kid?
Right 
And then you just say I've got five 
there'll be three A 
who have finished one A
get a three A sheet out  their name on.
then you get a three A sheet 
So you won't need all the others?
No, no.
The on , the only, the only 
Oh right!
that you still  either gonna have to fill in anything else that you've covered with them
Aha.
And attainment 
separately 
target one.
That's the  one.
Attainment target one.
But, even then I was thinking that we might, in actual fact, start looking at attainment target one and certainly fill in, you know 
Mm.
the first, I mean  there's 
Mm.
no way that we could 
Level one I think are we, are we ignoring 
level one and level two 
what, I, are we ignoring the stuff that comes primary school then?
Well, it'll be interesting to have them, but I mean 
It'll be interesting to have it, but I mean we 
you can't sort of 
we've got to asses kids on that.
assume that they're at that level when they come to us and  follow on from there.
See I sometimes wonder whether it's not worth giving them some kind of er  a proper test.
National curriculum test.
When they come in 
The beginning.
Mhm.
Mm.
and saying  right well  you're at level
Well that, that was another thing that we did debate
Mhm.
should we in actual fact  produce 
Give them give them time to settle in.
Well we we should, well yes because I suppose eventually we could have them fo , we've got one now haven't we, for the end of year eight?
Aha  but if you 
Well we can it off the end of year seven and  one for the begi , for next year so they 
Well no if  if we wanted to we, we could produce erm a level three test.
I mean when they when they do the sats 
What i , what's what is it we've got now?
Three, four 
when the 
and five?
when they, when the a the, when they do the sats  then we'll, we'll have something that we can trust, won't we?
When they have 
Well, mm mm!
public sats.
Mm.
But it, if if we wanted to to change what we've done already  we we could at a certain stage have a level three, I mean I've  I've ordered  these books, you know mathematics level by level
Mhm.
so we've got what we've already got and we could produce  i it it just worries me because we're going, we're going back to eleven plus days you know!
Mhm, I know 
And saying a lev , you know
Well they are anyway cos they've been doing the test at eleven!
Ya, well that's what it is isn't it?
In 
But 
different levels
we we could have a level three test  that they could try.
Mhm.
And then we could say, well yes this confirms what, what we've  what we've said here .
Well how do they get the levels in the junior school?
How did Mrs  do it?
Erm
Ooh, tick sheet isn't it?
Sorry?
It's a tick sheet isn't it?
It's a , mhm.
Yeah  but some of them have had sats obviously  the ones lower down.
But I mean, they 
But, but then 
they're insisting on kids, they're they give them a problem which is a typical level  four or five or six or whatever, and because they get that one  problem right they say that that kid  is a level six
Oh!
You know,ju just 
So I mean tha that's 
looking at one
Aha.
single aspect for  you know
But, but the other thing about giving them a standardised test at the re , when when they first arrived with us, is when you get the parent who comes and says well  how they were level five in the primary school and you've only given them level four?
You can say, well I'm sorry but on our  tests
Mhm.
when they arrive in school in September  they were level  two  and they've now moved up to level three.
That, of course is that, that of course is the the problem of national curriculum  it's your interpretation of of the national curriculum  and there is  I mean, if Judith says a child is level three, I would accept that  but if somebody from Spring Garden said this child is level five, I'm certainly not going to accept that without  evidence that I have !
Yeah, but what I'm saying is that , yeah, but what I'm saying is when the parent comes to you and says  well the primary school said they were  you can say well  well yes but by  by our standards and our assessment when they arrived here
The the problem is that that 
they were that , and they and this is pre the progress that they've made 
The thing you are saying about 
The parents are going to naturally assume that you're a  if you're at level five  at one stage 
the ones you buy in a shop I've heard of six 
that you would either remain at level five, or go up to level six 
six is the .
which is not gonna be the case when they transfer from school.
So you can  six.
I know, I know!
At regular intervals,, but when you get to higher  
But at least it would give us some  because you could say well yes, there has been progress, erm  primary school might have said
you only have one  level five  for all  
and like,did was three.
Mhm.
I would think so.
And if they, that's what you say that they're doing
Well more or less.
They di di yo 

That much sooner  and  in the last hour, couple of hours we've seen what I would call a Tweedledee and Tweedledum amendments erm because quite frankly there isn't that much difference between them er at the end of the day the impact on the people who've had to pay the bill is virtually the same.
The amendment which has gone up there and which  I think is being circulated is our amendment which is designed to achieve spending at the government target figure.
Now, despite what er councillor  said in the paper the other day, there are no real surprises in this, no rabbits to come out of our hats.
Because of course we did put er these proposals, most of these proposals  until we've had to  erm at the board meeting er and we did give them full publicity in the Cambridge Evening News a couple of weeks ago.
But you might say, and I  councillor  did say in fact that of course we would be most unfair in the way that we did this because to quote from him er  we were giving no time, no time for discussion, no time for evaluation  no time .
No time for evaluation and no time for consultation.
Well just I wonder how much time councillor  actually wants to consider our proposals.
I wonder if he's looked in the minutes of the council er for this time twelve months ago er when we proposed a very similar amendment to the one that's on the board there, the figures are reduced er but certainly lots of the areas are actually there and in fact if he looked back even further in the minutes he'll see that it bears a striking resemblance to what we actually proposed on the fourteenth of February nineteen ninety one.
If two years isn't enough to consider the proposals that my group have consistently put forward, I don't know how long it's.
It's consistently wrong.
Well if they're consistently  it's amazing that you have accepted something, er actually moved in our direction this evening.
Can I quickly, quickly go through the various points.
First of all we're not prepared to put the nine thousand back into the environment committee budget to er to save the cooperative development agency.
I wish I'd brought the environment committee before so I could quote from it but from er recollection it says that that organisation did not have a consistent record of producing a significant number of jobs and that the expenditure on funding them did not provide value for money.
That's what the report said.
Everybody I thought, accepted that in  committee, I can't remember what the liberal democrats did but certainly we did and certainly all the members of the labour group .
So I can't see any reason er for putting that back but obviously we've .
The argument about the contingency fund  erm I find that amazing that er y'know, up until a few hours ago you had to have two hundred thousand pounds.
The labour group have now agreed to reduce it to a hundred thousand.
I see no reason whatsoever for a council that will still have two and a half million pounds in balances after the labour group proposals, why on earth we need to build another hundred thousand pounds into the budget, paid for by er council tax payers to provide for unforeseen expenditure.
I don't think we ought to provide it because that just means it gives the wrong impression to the officers I have to say.
It gives the impression we're prepared to spend the money and that's what's happened in previous years and it shouldn't happen.
If there was a desperate emergency you could find the money from other sources.
I'm not going to go into any length about the community arts budget, that is one area of service provision that we feel, and I've said for the last two years, does not provide value for money.
I  I have not one person ring me up and say ooh you rotten tory taking that money out of 
And I don't want any.
So don't encourage the people to do that but that is true if it's so valued you would have thought there would have been an outcry, there hasn't been.
The , councillor  I am not passionate about getting rid of union representation, what I am passionate about is union members paying for their own representation, not me, not the people out there, if they want a full time union official let them pay for it but don't expect other people to pick up the bill, it's ludicrous er to er put that sort of money in our budget.
The local government information unit, the labour party in disguise er I don't think we need to er waste money on having propaganda coming from them just simply attacking the government, completely wasted.
We've said all along that staffing the community centre should be reduced er and that we should be encouraging the community to take more interest in running their community centres.
The do that in   wonderful community centre, I went there to a good function the other evening, very good fish and chips  and  as well.
They do it in  and up the road in Peterborough they've got about thirty eight community centre and the labour run council there is handing every one, every one of them over to the local communities.
There's no reason why we need to put this money in our budget.
The Corn Exchange  er oh public relations well I think that speaks for itself.
I really did find that we sunk to the pits when we started circulating recipes for cheesecake on er poll tax er payers money, that is absolutely ludicrous and we shouldn't be spending money on that.
You made great play on how, ooh advertising is going to pay for it all, out of a budget of about sixty odd thousand pounds you've got fifteen hundred pounds in in advertising.
That's hardly paying for the cheesecake  recipe let alone the proper information which was being given to the public.
The Corn Exchange well I've said that one so many time I don't think I need repeat it.
Our philosophy is that it's not just conjuring twenty five thousand pounds out of the air, it's actually changing the way the Corn Exchange is  and we feel strongly about that but we are not going to waste your time going through all that.
Reduction in committee administration budget of er fifty thousand pounds.
This isn't just a figure drawn out of the air unlike councillor , I can actually back it up  because I've got the detail of that budget.
Do you know  that in the last twelve months er we've produced or the office has produced, twelve hundred  twelve hundred reports to committees at an average cost of six hundred pounds each and that's just in officer time in writing them, nothing to do with the paper they were printed on, the cost of printing, the cost of distribution, the cost of our time to discuss them and our attendance allowance.
That is  over a million pounds  right in that budget for committee administration and you ask me where we can save fifty thousand pounds, well start producing a few less reports.
Let's have a more radical view of the committee structure.
We get rid of the cycling working party and what do we do  out of the ashes rises another prefix, the transport work.
What a waste of time, we all know that the county council is the  the highway authority and is  fully responsible for traffic management, we're in a minority  and to set up a working party is a complete waste of time..
Information technology costs, councillor  said, don't worry we've already saved a hundred and fifty thousand pounds in the last year.
Alright, fair enough, you accepted what we've been saying for ages that we had to go to voluntary competitive tendering  right.
Well why on earth, if you're s , y'know, you embark on that route  why don't you put something in the budget for the fruits of that exercise and we believe that you can save money by that and that er this is going to be one of those budgets that's gonna end up er under strength at the end of the day because of that.
The  we're coming closer on the  er figures for the er staff turnover and I believe that the four percent, which is easily achievable, on the thirty first of December nineteen ninety two the turnover savings were running just below four percent, alright we just cut some of the post out of today's budget but I still think  if we give the wrong messages to the officers er we're in danger of spending money that we don't need to.
We need to keep a tight control on staff turnover and we need to pay tight control on our staff budget.
Let's face it, it's the largest amount we spend in this council, is money spent on our employees.
The balance of this er well the community groups we don't feel it's right to spend that money at this point in time until we've sorted out er where the other four hundred odd thousand pounds is actually going in that budget before we start throwing even more money.
The final point is taking money out of the reserves to make sure that we don't have to put back twenty two pounds on the council tax.
That's obviously been accepted by the labour group because they have taken extra money out of reserves, we're simply going to take some more out to meet our er  our figure that we're trying to achieve.
Mr Mayor  we all  want to provide quality services by this council.
Every one of us, we wouldn't devote our time, our precious time serving in local government if we didn't believe in local government and didn't want to provide the best possible services to the people of this city.
But I come back to what I've said at the outset Mr Mayor in conclusion.
There is a still a clear divide between the conservative groups and the other two groups on the council.
Obviously  labour and the liberal democrats have no desire to minimise council tax bills.
We've been saying the same thing for the last three years and I've got the minutes here to prove it.
That message needs to be got home, I'm pleased to note this evening that after three years of making these suggestions you have at last started to accept some of them.
It is a step in the right direction.
There's further to go and we're gonna keep saying these things until we're blue in the face, as well as 
Keep on hammering that message home Mr Mayor and I beg to move this .
Thank you is there a seconder for the amendment please.
I'll second that, it was quite overwhelming  .
Debate on the amendment.
Councillor  yes I'm sorry .
Thank you Mr Mayor.
Couple of points, not the  one.
I refer with er councillor  to the remarks I made earlier about the tr the post of the trade union, I don't propose to say any more on that.
But it's interesting isn't it that we have here the proposed deletion of subscriptions to local government information unit  unit one thousand five hundred pounds.
Is that a desire to save one thousand five hundred pounds or a desire to prevent the rest of us finding out what your government's really up to?
Councillor .
I'd like to erm just say a few words about erm  the three erm reductions in the budget of the erm  er the erm  community services  erm the erm deletion of the arts budgets, you probably have heard this before, but I I do think it's a great pity that erm  when it was on the basis and I think very little  knowledge of un and understanding  with erm  er of what arts is about  which is to delete one of the, was one of the erm  the the erm  things in this council which we actually do best, it's one of the things which has attracted attention from way beyond Cambridge erm and  which is undoubt has undoubtedly  to communities in which it takes place, erm  as far as the erm  erm  oh the erm  community, staffing of community centres erm  this looks like erm in calculations involved handing over  the r the management to the community centres to erm  volunteers.
In the first place volunteers are  be there.
There's no reason why we should change our, our method of managing er community centres.
It's a judicious mixture between erm youth volunteers and the youth paid extra workers.
Some of our, some of our er community centres are in fact run by volunteers, some of them are run, er most of them in fact have a very large substantial volunteer input.
But when you have a community centre like  street that is which a joint  you can see the value of of of maintaining it as a  a paid for as a a a erm  and be substantial volunteer input that exists.
Erm,to comparison with Peterborough's particularly useful but it might be, must be said that Peterborough do have problems with at least three or four of the their community centres all the time, in fact have quite a substantial budget on er staff involved in sorting out problems with voluntary managed community centres.
The  fifty thousand  well I if they do they haven't been able to  what what we intend to do.
The the the er budget  this year is is greatly over oversubscribed erm but applications for grants for people who are being  of their work in their community.
The additional money that we're looking for this year er a substantial amount of this will go to funding of the rent for the new premises for the c the Citizens' Advice Bureau and I don't propose to stand here and defend the Citizens' Advice Bureau because  it doesn't need it, I hope.
Erm,the rest of this money would be used  part to to fund additional workers in er minority ethnic community groups, children's groups  the community service  strong support with housing officers in dealing with housing management problems and  a a and possibly from community radio among others.
We are here to serve people of Cambridge and it's quite clear that the people of Cambridge do want  good services, they want, they want services which  which improve the quality of life in in in the cities and this is precisely what is  erm spending is there to do.
Thank you.
I've got councillor 
Erm thank you Mr Mayor, erm I'm taking up to speak about the community arts.
I think it's fair to say that it's not quite as simple as just deleting that item out of the budget, there are in fact I think five or six people working for community arts and in the events of that item being deleted we would presumably have to add on the costs of making them redundant erm an an an and dis  erm  the community arts scheme I think represents, it's true to say, a range of expertise.
It's not something that can be done or reproduced very easily  by people without expertise.
Their expertise lies in enabling others  and  others to take advantage of arts facilities and helping them erm or working with them to produce the things that happen, for example all the erm  posters which were up during last years festival erm were produced in conjunction with community arts which  erm  has erm  er  produced on Ditchfern Place, erm and earlier this morning I was thinking that up as I think other councillors did, that more serious of projects which community arts are now entering into er in Chesterton in particularly in the children erm I think councillors went to Dickfield women's photograph project  and it is things like that about giving people confidence to join arts  in a way erm  with which they might never otherwise have experienced  and the community arts have taken just that.
I think erm it's interesting erm to listen to desert island discs  the last two weeks that the luxury item chosen has been a piano and people are saying that they would like very often, there are a lot of people who'd like the opportunity to have learnt a musical instrument.
Now I don't think of us here and neither, certainly myself, I I would not claim to be any form of artist or expert but I think a lot of us can enjoy er getting our hands dabbling with paint erm paper mâché and other activities and in fact having that opportunity of ex enjoying those experiences that's we ought to be able to offer to people in Cambridge and many peop children in schools they they do get opportunities but I think particularly amongst older people who've never had that opportunity and I think you should be  do so.
The community arts team, I believe is an example, an excellence in its field as a team.
Sadly we're seeing things  too often which have expertise but I think on this occasion we should support the community arts team and not delete the item from the budget.
Here, here 
Councillor 
Yes thank you Mr Mayor.
I just want to talk very briefly to the  about er reducing staffing at community centres and with particular reference to to one in in the ward that I represent which is  street.
That centre for one of the staff who work there, make quite profound impact on the quality of life for many people living on our estates and I cannot see anything more short sighted than denying access to the sorts of services and the sorts of pleasures that people can get from use of a community centre like that by cutting back on staffing so that we can't actually use the capital resources that we've b the capital that we've invested in facilities like that.
It's an absolutely crazy idea.
Councillor 
Thank you Mr Mayor, erm I  probably will repeat some of the things that have already been said with regard to community arts.
We can't let this erm moment pass without actually er er er defending this particular service.
Erm, I think it's important for us all to remember what community arts is about.
Now the tory party are forever lecturing us about choice are they not.
How a lot of this legislation will  about choice.
Now for some of our members choice is is not something that they are fortunate enough to have because they are very needy and they do not have perhaps all the education that some of the tory party perhaps have, that they have been less fortunate in many, many ways.
There are also there are many, many people with special needs who don't have much element of choice about their lives.
The thing about community life is that  even setting aside the actual word arts  through the way in which community arts workers work with small groups of people who have come together because they're doing something interesting because it looks something that they want to do, brings groups of people together.
That's then produces people talking to each other.
It then helps them to share their problems, it then encourages them.
Because they start talking they realise that there's something that they can do about their problems and then they can start to campaign.
Now, to help those problems.
Now that might stand  oh you say, blurgh, y'know, rubbish  you you just sort of depend  in this particular way, it's not.
Community arts is a very, very important part of the community development.
It is through these means that the people, our people, all the people in this city many of them  bound together and then able to go out and think about their  civic lives if you like, their civic, the way th that this council works perhaps and take part much more in  just go in and putting little crosses on pieces of paper maybe.
People who have never voted before might think yes I suppose that's how we change things.
By getting together and talking to each other in this way.
That's what community development is about, that's what community arts is about.
To say that it's not value for money, how can you.
I had this  councillor  mentioned this morning that Mr  community arts  erm until April and  Russell Street self image problem.
Working with adults who have suffered or are suffering from mental illness using drawing and slide photography.
This is not value for money, we're working with very, very needy people in our community.
We can't just turn round and say right scrap this whole and very valuable part of this council's work .
I I would support the community arts programme but I would point out that many elements of it are er the kind of things that technically are the responsibility of the county council's  services department.
Although I don't, I don't support any the less for that.
Er Mr Mayor there's only one point I I I want to make an and that is this is a rather typical conservative budget.
I I was hoping for something different this year and for a budget that erm er proposed that didn't depend on er us taking far more from reserves than any other party.
But this one does the same thing as ever.
Er, the main part of conservatives er saving on the council tax is by taking, comes from taking eight hundred thousand pounds  than anybody else.
Erm, if you compare for example erm their real savings on er er budgetary items er it comes to about half a million, just over half a million er compared to the ones we're putting forward about a third of million and if you look at the dips in the two budgets for that you'll see that erm we disagree with their saving on community arts and  that er they propose saving on in on information technology costs is unrealistic er that market is changing very rapidly there's another large organisation in this city which has found us going down track which we are now proposing to down, has produced no income at all, no no no reduction in cost at all .
Erm so I don't think that one's achievable erm  I think what this amounts to is that erm there are two cuts that we don't agree with er there's a vast  on reserves we don't agree with but we managed to put forward a thousand pounds for education at the same time erm i this does strike me as a budget of a party which it knows has no prospect of any sort of responsibility in this council for a long time to come.
I'd just like to to address two points which.
Which none of my colleagues seem prepared to direct to.
Nonetheless the public has a right to know .
That, that is the the questions which we've raised councillor  over the contingency plan and also the three point five percent as opposed to.
I think they're unfair questions to to respond to erm  if you look at the potential calls on the contingency budget in the forthcoming year  they're  been outlined by the officers.
The first is the reduced  subsidy grant for council tax housing benefit.
You can blame the government for that.
The second is the increased take up of council tax housing benefits which we anticipate, you can blame the government for that.
The third is the interest on  which will be unknown until the council's tax starts rolling in.
You can blame the government for that.
Support in court costs in respect of Sunday training, trading  you can actually blame the government for that as well, for not sorting the mess out.
The fifth is the Abbey Pool Parkside Pool non-closure  potentially.
And then you can't blame the government.
But  .
Might be able to blame  constitutionalist   .
Erm  and that I think, the response therefore to to your position on financial figures for the contingency fund is if you sort the government out we might be able to.
The second point on the three point five percent turnover .
In the past three years we've adopted a three percent turnover .
We have not ever yet achieved a fourteen point two turnover  and I grant you that at Christmas we were up, just under the four percent mark.
It's predicted for the end of this year that we will be under four percent on our turnover savings.
Now those are in years for consistently what we have done is we have held those savings in order to do what we said earlier,prune this council back and we structured the organisation by pruning back on staff and that's why th the vacancies had run as high as they have.
Now, given that so much of that pruning has already been done and given that even given that situation we have never yet reached four percent contingent er turnover savings, I think it highly unlikely and so do the officers, that they will be achieved this year.
Finally we did look once again at that area of the budget when you put that in.
We got advice from the officers that three point five percent might be achieved and therefore we we acted on that advice in making the amendments which we did.
I think that's a prudent way of going about things, it's responsive t to to the questions which you might possibly have read and but it doesn't make over optimistic assessments about the likely savings that the council control.
Councillor  second it.
Thank you Mr Mayor.
My modest er  surprise at the beginning Mr Mayor was purely in recognition actually of my er colleagues presentation, bearing in mind all the previous criticism about  being specific.
If I may say so  very well councillor  and you were specific and indeed backed up the particular figures, even though of course one is entitled to the  that I thought it was fair and well argued.
But  the first thing that's  the first thing to bear in mind, the first thing to bear in mind of course is had our previous proposals in other years been accepted Mr Mayor we would need it as it were to make these cuts from this year.
The second point is that of course as we accept  into the role of opposition indeed to give these alternative proposals, give this particulary case to come within the government guidelines.
But I think of course we can all debate er the various individual proposals and I think if we were in control of the council not only of course would we have different policies but the sort of detailed matters which would come up in debate would be discussed in committee, things would be  in the normal way.
So it's not  necessarily  that one has to be too critical of all the individual items in the way that some people have.
The fact remains that we as a council if we wish to, can meet a proper prudent budget and the alternative proposals tonight, which is really the the er unfortunate ones which would appear to be going through, are really not recognisable, that this is not the time  to impose additional council tax or anything else on the people of this city when generally speaking their personal finances are not at their best.
This council  is not sympathetic to that councillor.
Er, basically this council will spend what it will, whatever the guidelines.
Our role is to propose a prudent council tax and that is what we've done and at the end of the day I agree, the figures are juggled one way or another but it does show a net saving of one point three million  and however you look at it Mr Mayor I'm sure the leader of the council, if he adopted these proposals, could then find somewhere a sum for a stress control officer.
It was  in the original setting  we realise the zany difference between myself and Chris  that when Graham gets up to speak the earth moves .
This is
and many of the matters have been dealt with erm  I think by speakers on various sides of chamber.
W what I  go for are two major points I think which actually demonstrate the fallaciousness of this budget that has been proposed to us as an amendment.
The first is how much at variance it is with what actually a conservative government seems to expect.
And that seems to be to demonstrate  difference between what is happening whether we like it or not at  central government level and input of somebody who is  perpetual  of opposing propositions  and that is the  to two particular  items within this alternative budget.
The first is the cut in public relations.
We are being told time and time and time again, I think  once more talking about this, about openness and the need for the public to know.
I'm personally going to throw up  being told that this is  .
This is actually essential.
Cutting public relations actually means saying to people in this city, you have got less access to information from the council.
We're not trying to say to people, the information is there come in and get it, we're actually trying to present it to them.
Whether they're  the citizens' charter, whether they are  response to people from the press or from the public or constantly ringing in to the switchboard, or whether it's by all the other ways in which we disseminate information.
This is something which  the government has learned how to do, so I must think that this is highly motivated politically on their part, given the way in which the difference between public information and conservative party political propaganda is becoming a blur to .
Erm  that this council had a tradition of actually putting forward information in as straightforward a way as possible and indeed the  attitude of the citizens' er charter working party demonstrates that we actually put a value on this and it seems to me that there is a gap if you like, between what some people in the conservative group are doing in this context and what they're actually doing in working parties and in committees and it comes out elsewhere as well.
Community groups, the community services budget in general.
It's very interesting that the only way in which one  tory hand went up in support in community services committee for any of the things we had before us and I can only worry, was only because the  .
And they said, well  you know, we was there  
How long is he going to be la leader of the group  y'know .
On the ground when we look at services, your voters, your supporters and group not only in the budget .
We are talking about care in the community, we know there a  on   routine fifty thousand pounds extra to community voluntary groups which we can well afford it flies in the face of the  group, the instincts of the people that we represent and what the government is expecting.
This  is a bogus budget and we will happily throw it out with a fairly strong vote.
Would you like us to take it in roman numeral order.
least you can do .
Thank you, okay, all those in favour of the amendment please show  and all those against  the new found conservative .
Right, can we .
Mr Mayor if I may  amendment if I may.
Another amendment.
A very brief one I'm pleased to say.
this is a fair chance  I think Mr Mayor this amendment is very self explanatory, I think we seek to reinstate the noise budget pollution  to its original thirty thousand.
The twenty thousand required to make that spend will come out of public conveniences budget.
I think I speak for the vast majority of the environmental health committee when I say that the abatement and noise pollution has been one of our ongoing major concerns in things for the last twelve months.
Noise Mr Mayor, is one of today's great irritants.
Be it industrial, domestic or social it is a major cause of neighbour disputes.
The problem is particulary acute in the evenings and at night when parties, music and other noise sources  can have most effect.
I'm sure we can all recall cases of being driven to distraction by blaring music and late night noise especially during the working week.
The purpose of thirty thousand Mr Mayor, will be to extend the night time quiet service to all seven nights of the week.
This will have great benefits for residents across the city who currently have little redress against any midweek neighbours making undue noise.
As you know Mr Mayor, we are inside the chamber, don't believe in spending any more than is absolutely necessary in any part of any budget so rather than spend any extra money we are proposing an extra twenty thousand be taken out of the public conveniences budget.
In the original proposals there was in fact scope for savings of a hundred and ten thousand pounds in this budget.
In the event we agreed to only save seventy nine thousand pounds.
As you can see therefore, there is at least some scope for further savings without actually causing undue pressure to this particular budget.
As with all financial decisions Mr Mayor, this one comes down to a matter o a question of priority.
This group places extremely high priority on the abatement of noise pollution and I hope it's something we can all support.
Councillor  I I had to admit that I'm slightly lost in that one A  now ends as I understand it  with the roman numeral three that was proposed in the labour amendment.
That is now the end because of the difference  of one A but if you're proposing that this comes at the end of one A, you're proposing to tack it on to the end of roman numeral three in the labour amendment as was the council's  which I take it, was not what you intend its effect to be.
So could you please reformulate  if you so wish, your amendment so that it comes in the appropriate point.
Okay so,.
You want this added at the end of roman numeral four.
Councillor .
Sorry is there a seconder for the amendment?
Er yes Mr Mayor, I would severely question the effect of this amendment in two parts and erm  the second part er restoring the bit for noise er if  er we don't take a vote for  public conveniences.
Er the erm  the environmental health check I think he did discuss it at fantastic length, the question of our public lavatories an an and the savings that can be made and the judgement it came to in the end was a, was a very  one I think on the outlook against of what you can reasonably do, erm nevertheless I do gather that erm erm it is no longer necessary under standing orders, for erm amendments to the budget to be self financing because you can move amendments to simply increase the budget and er the amendment that I reserve I suppose, it's not very much.
Councillor .
Yes well we as councillor  has said, be it both of these matters should be discussed at great length by .
On the question of the public conveniences erm I feel  there's been a lot of discussion about this, this kind of issue and I feel that what we've got now is a good agreement erm, we've got  still providing a good level of service with attendance at the central  I don't like referring to conveniences, at the time that they are most needed and I think that now I wouldn't like to see us go without that if we don't really need to.
On the other issue  the noise pollution again I feel quite strongly about this.
I mean, this authority is actually erm the only authority  the council is providing a call out service at all.
I think we are providing a good service here and we're meeting  the needs of people erm we are providing a service on Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday now at the times which are identified by officers as the crucial times when people actually need the service.
Ipswich for example, was providing a full service and has now actually gone to the times that we're providing.
They've actually gone from a full service back to this level because this is what they've found is what people need and obviously this is surely what we should be able to do, erm I think that  you know by providing the extra ten thousand my concern now is that we actually make sure that our offices are fully covered here.
The spend accounted to quite dangerous situations sometimes.
We've got now quite a lot of new officers who don't necessarily have the experience of dealing with the situations.
They may  need to go out in pairs which is why I think that we do need to put more money into the budget to provide  this service and make sure that we're doing it in the best possible way, erm  so I mean I think that it's very important that we're consistent about this.
I think that to go to a full service  that is actually what's moving, go back again is actually just confusing the people.
I think that people need to know what we are providing so we need to be monitoring, continually monitoring that this is actually at the times it's meeting people's needs and I'm sure that we will be hearing from members if it wasn't, and we're not I mean it seems to me that the level of services provided now is very satisfactory and we shouldn't y'know, obviously give our officers support to continue .
Here, here.
Councillor .
Right, agree with what councillor  and councillor  have had to say about the first part of this.
I think we've already discussed over great length and I think we've gone as far as we can go at this moment.
On the second part, well nobody feels more strongly that I do about the problems of noise pollution and I  agree entirely there er with what councillor  has to say but may I remind members that this council did have a full service for a six months period, you all seem to have forgotten that, we did have a full service, an experimental one  which ran for six months, er we were advised by the officers at the end of that period it was not necessary to run the full seven day a week service, it was not necessary  we are still being advised that that is not necessary, that is the advice we were given at the last committee meeting and er the majority of members supported that.
Now I will give my pledge Mr Mayor that if and when the situation arises that a full service is required and needed, it will get my full support, er I hope it's not, but if it should arise I would have no hesitation in supporting the second part of the amendment.
I don't know if any of you saw very recently, the horrific programme which was on television dealing with this problem in some of the London boroughs and god forbid if we ever reach that stage erm because it is quite horrific so I do think that although we have a problem, our problem is mainly confined to the weekend.
Councillor 
Thank you Mr Mayor, yes just briefly erm.
At the present time and in er  the public  fund and the health committee we did decide to have a review after  so I think that is actually in control  I don't think we should mess about with it any more at this point.
Erm, on the  emergency call out I getting surprised that this council insist that  it's lit if we don't need it er at all service, I'm sure, I'm quite certain that we have never been told that  there's always been a question of anything that goes to actually give us a better call out service .
Councillor  I second it.
Thank you erm, I'd just like to digress slightly to start off with.
I feel I must  if anyone in my  in my ward  there are two rounds.
At this moment, Stretton Avenue and Harvey Goodwin Avenue.
They put traffic calming down Stretton Avenue, the result of this was that the traffic then moved round to Harvey Goodwin Avenue so  j to avoid going over the humps  they go up Harvey Goodwin Avenue.
The re the reason I bring this up, the reason I bring this up, you've supported that in the past you know, they've said, those in the  you would agree with that, so the reason I bring this up is that  if you  we start off by offering a full service across the whole week.
Then what happens is we say well we don't need the service of noise abatement Monday, Tuesday, Wednesdays erm so what we'll do is we will concentrate on Thursday, Friday, Saturday.
Now  one of the things that we have in this city that I don't think they have as many  in Ipswich  are students and that must be one of the biggest, they are they party revellers of the century, they have parties all the time.
So  .
For parties, they are quite a bright lot of students, if we are operating Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday, they say aha  there's no service Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.
They start having parties on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday .
They're not too worried about getting up for work the next day.
They may get up at ten or eleven.
Ten or eleven for lectures, erm that   erm I I think that the  is is quite a strong reason, well the other reason is at the weekends are we providing enough cover?
Is there enough cover?
I was told today by, well I am actually through the process at the moment, where I'm acting as a witness in a case, erm for for noise  erm  so, well I checked.
So  the environmental health officer that is dealing with that said to me that he is very stretched at weekends.
People are ringing up and  no I'm sorry I can't come out because I'm too busy.
Seven or eight calls on one night.
One of the problems is  that you can't say one night you may get seven or eight calls.
The next night you may get two.
The poor chap's having to get up at two or three o'clock in the morning, this is being paid for it.
I was quite surprised to see he was wide eyed and quite awake when when he came to my flat.
But the point is.
If you're going to, if you're going to provide the service you have to be careful that it, it is being effective, as effective as it can be, does it need to be more effective and should it be operating all week.
I actually believe it should be operating all week and I think we should support this amendment.
Thank you.
councillor  .
Mr Mayor, I do feel after councillor  er er er  speech I just have to make a little comment erm people in my ward .
But having  I could just tell councillor  that the main problems which he felt he had to bring into this debate , the main problem is parking across the driveways in Harvey Goodwin Avenue, both the residents get very fed up because the parking .
I accept that there is a certain .
Do these cars parking across driveways have horns blowing?
I do detect a certain er levity here   I would point out that it is now twenty five past nine and we still haven't  this afternoon's business.
There is a lot left to do so can we please er try and stick to the point I have to chair  right to respond should he so chose, but not about the cars in Stretton Avenue.
I mean I I take this more more seriously   my  on Wednesdays and Thursdays have to be cancelled now because they will be  .
And Fridays and Saturday clearly a time when they get their heads down and write their essays.
Now  my experience of the average student of this .
We we got lots of evidence to suggest that actually the amount of noise problem outside weekends is actually  and we don't actually have the staff to actually deal with this problem without considerably more expenditure than anybody in this council is actually talking about and our tendency towards this  erm again this is a bid of of what's  it sounds good and  as as to the public conveniences  this has been liaised it's been negotiated about, it's been looked at very, very expansively indeed.
We've now got a good package which saves us nearly eighty thousand pounds and to actually undo all of that and create an awful lot of public disquiet plus a  problem with regard to potential redundancy to  particular saving that accommodates this  as the absolutely completely inane  and except for where it came from, I would be gobsmacked if it came  tonight.
Right, can we please move forward to the vote on this item.
Proposed as it's been suggest by councillor  .
Those who would wish to take it in parts please show  those against taking it in parts this evening  we will vote on it as one amendment in that case.
Those in favour of the amendment please show  those against the amendment please show  thank you.
Do I have to call the abstentions?
Please, in the absence of any further amendments, we now move back to the  motion  and give councillors the opportunity to debate the .
does have the right to stand up on his hind legs again.
No.
Good, thank you very much.
Those in favour of the  I did want to say something  .
It was very good of you to offer but er er I I did restrain myself, I was going to, I was going to talk about  
Those in favour of the substantive motion please show  and those against  and my cast.
I'll give my casting vover vote in favour of the substated motion.
Right, if we can now pass on to item ninety three A seven.
Comments  no, thank you very much, ninety two A eight, sorry ninety two , ninety three A eight sorry, capital resources.
Ninety three A eight I would like to ask a question Mr Mayor.
The same question I asked at city hall, it's slightly different in that now the council has left two and a half  available over the next erm three years given that it is not already taken.
We've made it clear what we would do with the money, I still would like to know what the labour group plan to do with it?
I I have an amendment .
some sense is a technical amendment in that we know that there are a whole series of schemes which we  which have been .
Erm which it is the intent of this council to actually pursue for, y'know a wide variety of reasons.
In addition we clearly want to have a relatively small scale of capital fund available for a wide variety of the needs and I have identified  leisure uses, traffic calming, environmental improvements, that's the ones which I .
Okay we  a major cause of some five hundred thousand pounds and we give addition to the three point six five one million which has been identified in this amendment.
And it would be helpful  for councillor  I would say that I know that there are  a third of our members  and from the program committees for capital expenditure which I suspect is going to be to excess  of the five hundred thousand pounds per year which we actually have.
Now that will need to be assessed by the council as a whole against it's priorities with regard to the balancing of the use of capital against capital to prop up the revenue er  expenditure of the council and conceivably er to deal with the problems arising er out of government er  legislation and clearly we are going to have to make some decisions decisions about this.
But there is undoubtedly a need for council expenditure in this city and elsewhere in this particularly recommendation we clearly have  to realise more capital whether from the judiciousness of our asset or of course by .
It seems to me that all of us in this chamber have at one time or another, wanted to actually spend money erm it comes  programme of committees, I don't think it's behoved upon me at the moment to transgress  on what programme committees are actually  er but to predict exactly where they will want their expenditure to go but I do know is that there is a huge backlog of member generated aspirations in terms of the environmental improvements, traffic calming  facilities, particulary  which I suspect were actually generated mildly in excess of the figures which we have before us tonight which is why we clearly leave open that further bids against capital can be made in the course of the next three years, erm which will be assessed against the overall financial position of the council and I think the council  much more than that.
Is there a seconder for that?
Thank you   reserving your right  the debate on  please  yes that's right,.
my my guess is that  by a side wind er can mix all the erm  items on the list, terms would include erm maybe committed and maybe not committed expenditure  expenditure and that if it does affect  because erm there are some items erm in the erm not clear whether it's committed or not  Market Square er which we don't want to support.
We think th th th th a good idea erm but an extravagance at this point.
But I would like to clarify exactly what the effect of this amendment is on the question of  erm  council's policy on the items already on the list.
not been debated as part of the capital programme.
have a capital programme in obviously the sense that it would be difficult to get that  suggest.
I understand your concern an and were that the case  show your reluctance to go with the the amendment but  there is no such implication that the three point six five one million er  er thereby becomes committed in any sense and the big  this is an additional provision which may lead er may  gone up to er over and above that but it doesn't actually admit it to that.
Okay, and I I think that as long as that's .
this is an, this is an additional amendment it's neither, it's neither specific nor unquantified.
Cos that's what the answers in that figure are .
Is there any further discussion on the amendment?
No, councillor  in that case  no.
no,.
Those in favour please show  those in favour of the amendment please show  thank you and against  none, okay, it's carried .
I wanted to say .
Ninety three A nine  right, we now turn to the document of the housing committee, ninety three G one.
Yes Councillor .
Thank you Mr Mayor, I I just.
Any further interests, no, in that case councillor .
Thank you Mr Mayor, erm I I want to be very brief Mr Mayor, that the debate on houses and rent increases has taken place and has been well aired over recent weeks and I don't have any intention tonight of re-debating those issues.
My colleagues and I actually take no pleasure in agreeing to a rent increase which results in the highest public sector rates among our neighbouring districts er it is some eighteen percent higher than the average of eight local councils.
Erm, the answer in our minds is to take positive steps to reduce the housing revenue account debt burden, a matter which we will continue to bate, to debate until something is done about it.
We intend to participate fully in the promised review of housing revenue account expenditure which is er coming later in this year.
I want to address the remainder of my, of my ri remarks Mr Mayor if I may, to the liberal democrats er  party.
Although basically 
you can still address them to me.
Although er er physically on my right I I think their policies, in so far as I glean they have any, er are most definitely far from the right.
More than John Major anyway.
Their housing spokesman recently Mr Mayor was quoted  as saying that the trouble is it is very difficult to think of a solution.
When there isn't one.
That surely Mr Mayor is the very essence of politics, to come up with a modern solution to today's problems.
No one every said it was going to be easy.
So Mr Mayor I would like to repeat my recent challenge to the liberal party.
If you have a policy for housing, or anything else for that matter, how about sharing it with the rest of us, right and until you come up with an alternative policy, don't you start knocking us for having a policy which we are prepared to debate.
Thank you Mr Mayor.
We might as well be councillor  and actually sort of erm  stated the problem to which it is very difficult to find a solution and that problem is how do you keep council rents below nine and a half percent, that is a problem to which councillor  does not have a solution.
Councillor  regrets that er we're bringing council rents up by nine and half percent but what we're doing is in fact precisely what his government is recommending us to do, so I'm a little sup so would councillor  kindly at some point explain why he regrets his own government's policy.
Erm, take some time off to read erm the handbook we got from the housing finance seminar because clearly he doesn't understand his contacts.
Yes, look I'm sorry we've got to raise rents by nine and a half percent.
Unfortunately the government is assuming that's all we are doing so they're cutting housing subsidy accordingly and we would have been left with no choice, that's all there is to be said on the matter.
Neither have you.
Thank you Mr Mayor erm I think for a for a tory councillor er if even form the shape of er.
To choose er erm the labour party er  housing er strategy, their housing policy is  well  gobsmacking but given that this is going to be recorded  perhaps not a very good idea.
It abhors me, it hurts me .
Ah 
With regard to the now unimportant four percent increase which then if you may  made I'm sure  councillors deny it and if we are to believe   the reason that  we have to bring our rents to this level is because government policy so dictates that we shall do.
And the reason that  rents in Cambridge are higher than in those in surrounding areas, or the eight that the councillor is talking about is because the rent levels which er the government require us to raise to are historically based on right to buy values and as he knows as well as I do, house prices in Cambridge have been relatively consistently higher than they have in surrounding areas.
Our rent levels have always been in line  in the case of  tenants guidelines and I of course there were savings that  about is insufficient  in in in  areas.
Erm, in  we were not sitting here at the end of our, how many years is it now, thirteen, fourteen years.
Er of tory  council and policy  perhaps we would not have to be saying to our tenants  that we must raise you rents by nine point four percent this year and let's not forget seventeen nine, I think seventeen point six percent last year that were government guidelines.
This is tory policy.
Thank you.
Is there any further debate on ninety three two one?
Right in that case can we do it to ninety three T twenty.
Erm,yes, under standing order thirteen  and permission of the council erm I do call upon the chair as he introduced this item, do I have your consent so to do?
Yes, thank you very much.
Councillor .
Thank you er er Mr Mayor, erm  I knew we would get to that part of the agenda where .
I just want to briefly introduce this, I don't want to speak in any great , we have had a long debate in house  do you if you wish to engage in a long debate again in view of the time tonight.
The reason that this has been brought on, the reason that this er er agenda item brought to housing committee was basically er because it was there and er  it's I think it's repulsive to bring forward to housing committee any  er government regulations or  we need to look at debating  and er and that's basically the reason.
Erm, I think I'll leave it at that for this moment in time and er if I may speak  at at the end .
You'll have the right to  .
Erm, any further  .
Yes Mr Mayor I I have an amendment Mr Mayor.
The amendment is very simple, members will have read it already before it gets flagged on on the wall.
It is the alternative recommendation that we put forward to housing committee last week.
Erm  now councillor  and I asked for this matter to be brought to this chamber because erm we felt that  the matter w was important enough that all members of this council should have an opportunity to debate it.
The background of the the the subject is, as far as I can work out, that the council main approaches to two housing associations with a view to obtaining their erm ideas on how a scheme to transfer void properties to the housing associations would work.
This erm approach would have enabled the council to obtain  some capital receipts under the terms of the chancellor's Autumn statement.
The report  that was put to committee by the the officers have arguments which I feel are fatuous, fallacious, erroneous and at best equivocal.
Ooh.
It puts forward a spurious long term disadvantages as reasons why we should ignore the short term benefits offered to us up to the end of this calendar year.
The, another point is that that having raised the hopes of the housing associations  the council is now actually  trying to close a door that that we ourselves opened and this is tantamount to paying lip service to the health and the housing associations, yes, we'll support you but not if it means that we have to sell you our houses.
Er  the housing associations approached  both have better records than us for rent collection and better records on void times.
That is to say that no matter how much we  are improving our performance, the associations have already beaten us to it and that, Mr Mayor, I would suggest is a very good case for transferring all our stock to housing associations  and  there is one final point I would like to make Mr Mayor.
Mr Mayor, in a recent conversation with the minister of housing.
Ooh.
I was informed  I was informed, Mr Mayor, that even labour controlled Leicester and labour controlled Sheffield have at last seen the wisdom of making capital receipts from hous er council house sales.
These councils have found that they have more cash available with which to repair, maintain and improve their remaining stock and that is a lesson which we in Cambridge will be well advised to listen.
I ask this council to ignore the recommendation from the housing committee and to support me in passing this amendment.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Is there a seconder for the amendment?
Who was it that mentioned tweedle dum and tweedle dee?
Councillor  please.
Oh dear.
Erm well first, I mean I'm sorry to hear you're keeping some bad company Stephen   bad news  .
Where to begin.
I think the that the first thing to say is that one of the reason why  this option  this paper was asked for was that we, so we could actually begin to look to see whether or not trickle transfer made sense in Cambridge.
Now you can't do that without going and asking  think with the organisations such as housing associations, some factor information about where we would stand if we decide to go down that route.
So we're not raising their expectations  that this is going to go ahead, that this is the committee policy of this council.
We're just asking, if we chose to do this what would happen from your point of view.
What would be the  the consequences of it.
I mean you can't actually examine the options without asking the question so,I mean I just think that's a rather foolish point to introduce into a into the debate there.
Housing association is  time to rent arrears.
Now come on Stephen you were at the same debate that I was at, the housing committee.
Now we know some of the reasons behind the  time situation.
Councillor  our our void times are are are very good in terms of the turnaround.
Now there are certain measures which housing associations enter into which we don't and for good reasons  which enable then to have perhaps in, on occasions, to have slightly lower turnaround times, okay.
Now we went through that.
One of them was the fact that housing associations ask for the keys is or ask for notification up to a month in advance of the fact that someone's going to leave and that is not something which in terms of our stock, we find practical to do.
So we've been through quite a lot of those and it's it, the case doesn't really stack up.
Again we're back to the  the the same arguments on the capital receipt and I don't intend to begin re-rehearsing those  but quite frankly, I mean I wouldn't claim by any  to have a vast or a  a slightly deeper knowledge of housing finance but obviously since you've been on the council the same length of time as I have, I mean you've got even less.
Ooh.
Councillor .
Yes well as in the c , Mr Mayor as in the case of the active promotion of right to buy nonsense.
The argument in favour of er trickle transfer is fundamentally weak because we can't trust the government not to take the money away from us.
The argument against trickle transfer is that it makes a nonsense of rational  rational housing management.
What we ought to be aiming for is more localised revolved estate management.
We should be more efficient and we should be more responsive to the needs of tenants.
Now trickle transfer will do exactly the opposite.
You'll what you'll end up with is different organisations managing houses scattered all over the city.
This will lead to higher management costs per household.
It means it it's going to be inefficient, it's going to be less responsive to tenant's needs.
Now I'm sure the minister, councillor  would like us to be more efficient and he would like us to be more responsive to tenants needs so let's do what the minister ask would like us to do and vote against this conservative amendment.
Yes cou councillor   councillor  is second .
Yes councillor 
I I think it's just words that  briefly talking about that issue  office states because I think in terms of management it just does not make any sense.
I mean, it doesn't make sent I I I'm just saying what  is saying there.
I mean yes of course we should live harmoniously together er  who would y'know,sector of those people who have taken advantage of the right to buy and  and so on and so forth but we talking about housing management in about housing management costs and if you have an estate of  y'know being repaired similar houses which a lot of our estates are, it makes sense that they're managed as it were centrally er and because that's the most efficient way of doing it erm if you have a variety of different landlords in er one  estate or one street and all the houses are similar, when it comes to things like modernisation and so forth it  it's duplicated a great deal of  er er er of work and it is not cost efficient and it doesn't make any common sense at all.
Erm  and therefore I g I I I do think that is quite a big issue as far as this but all I  these these all these arguments have been rehearsed as we've said before, in housing committee, but I would just like to make one point and this is it.
I strongly believe, as I'm sure  all my group do and I think perhaps many of of of erm  opposition, in local authority housing function.
I believe that local authorities should have a strong housing function that we as local authorities should be providing good, well managed social housing in which our tenants have a say, where we have good tenant participation, where we have tenants taking a part in  the sorts of repairs that they want to see, where every year they are er consulted and asked about where they want us to go next in terms of modernisation and repair.
I think that that is fundamental to  a local authority, I think  it is something that we have here in Cambridge, it is a centre of excellence for  local authority housing.
There may be things that we can improve and I'm damn sure there are and we work hard at
Right  can I  see those in favour of the amendment, please show.
It is your amendment .
And all those against, please show  thank you very much.
Now  call upon members  oral questions to put their question  out on the sheet circulated, the order is determined by the drawing names at random out of a box in the parlour before this meeting.
The fact that mine came nine has  absolutely nothing to do with it .
You are reminded that members are limited to two minutes in asking their questions.
Chairs similarly limited to two minutes in their reply.
The question  a  to ask a supplementary question referring to the previous answer and that chair must have two minutes to reply to that.
Councillor .
Thank you Mr Mayor.
Councillor   perhaps you could erm tell us the cost both spent and anticipated of writing this  rather erm new electoral role leaflet that might be coming out if we feel like it?
Fo for  I would like to talk at length about my new electoral role  
Erm  we have always  out any er leaflet erm clearly so that people to put their names on the register erm that is a statutory responsibility erm  the expenditure in excess of what we had er done in the past is actually going to be a very very small amount of one officer's time in redesigning the leaflet erm otherwise the expenditure will remain as it, as it always has for all intents and purposes and I think that answers your question if clearly you have problems about getting people on the electoral register that means there's something about your own electoral .
Yes, councillor .
I have no problem at all with that councillor .
What I would say is I just wonder  what the point of it is ed on the principal of of why fix something if if it ain't broke, wouldn't it be better to perhaps spend officer's time elsewhere rather than fashion designs of three colour printing on new leaflets?
Erm, all councillors have been been circulated with this.
I've clearly feel that you probably responded by saying that the old one which is led to under registration was perfectly adequate for your needs, which as I said says something about your view of the electoral process.
This I think is actually more likely to get people to register to vote, I think regardless of any party affiliation you all have something to benefit from that and I suspect the vast majority of members of the council will see that any well designed leaflet that gets people to put themselves on the register is to the benefit of democracy.
Here, here.
Councillor ,councillor .
Thank you Mr Mayor, er there is in Cherry Hinton  er a new residents association on the   road, Colville Road estate.
They have identified a number of problem areas which raise some environmental problems to  very definite housing problems.
We now have in place a new estates officer for Cherry Hinton  er can I ask that that there is a special report brought to the housing committee er before the summer recess on the possible solutions to the problems that have been identified?
Er thank you er councillor  erm I would actually welcome the er the new residents association which  the area.
I think it's er, I think it covers the largest area for any er one association and er y'know it's g very pleased about that, erm I am aware of your er meeting and I think it it's obvious that all new residents association will identify erm a lot of things which need doing er when they're first formed.
And I think they're actually picking out a particular area for a report is is not necessarily good practice., erm  I think we can identify er those areas piece by piece we will go through them, they can be brought forward to a variety of areas.
I must  prepare to say at this point that I have a special report on the Colville Road area   to er er committee, not just on the  now but I think we probably need to have further consultation with regard to the needs in that area.
That has been quite a lot of money er spent in that area and which I'm quite happy to  talk to you about erm  I don't need .
I'll leave it at that .
Thank you, councillor ?
No I have no supplementary, I'm perfectly satisfied with the reply er thank you.
Councillor , councillor .
Thank you Mr Mayor.
I think we all recognise that traffic issues here in Cambridge are likely to be controversial issues and I think we'd all equally recognise that er the joint traffic management sub- committee has made considerable progress in recent years in the provision of cycle lanes for example, in dealing with illegal parking er on the city's road and in improving the environment for pedestrians in our main shopping streets.
Now, one member of the joint traffic management sub-committee who has been closely associated with all of these three issues is county councillor Tony  and I must say, Mr Mayor that I am surprised to say the least by the way in which councillor  appears appears to have been treated by some members of the labour party in this city.
I propose that honourable members of this council er would not wish to be associated with such a disgraceful campaign to oust councillor , even if he does have strongly held views and I would like to give councillor  as chairman of the environment committee, this opportunity to set the record straight on that point.
Can I just clarify whether you've asked a question.
I'm giving the chair the opportunity to erm er set the record straight on that point, that's my question.
Right, well I've been waiting since er what is it twelve o'clock this morning, what on earth this question can be and I certainly didn't er come up with this possible  , erm all I can say is that I have always got on extremely well with Tony  and .
Good.
Do you wish to ask a supplementary question?
councillor  to the councillor .
Erm, well my question about the break-in at the Kingsway flats launderette, erm  in the launderette the facilities are controlled by a vending machine built into the wall.
To collect the takings, er from the vending machine you have to go through the adjacent community room into a small box room at the far end.
In that small box room you can gain access to the rear of the er vending machine.
About three weeks ago, well let me just, the money actually falls into a tray at the bottom of the vending machine which literally slides in and out, it's a very quick method and c could 
Councillor  could I just perhaps request that you perhaps don't make it quite so easy for any future break-ins.

Evening ladies and gentlemen.
Good evening
In case you're wondering why the conversation's being recorded this evening.
Perhaps you'd care to explain, Mr Chairman, to those who don't know.
Certainly I would, thank you, Vice Chairman.
Er, yes, this is a follow up erm, if you remember at the last full council meeting, we recorded er proceedings for the er British Corpus, is it, Town Clerk?
Yes, yes.
And er, they were so pleased with your efforts, that they've sent the Town Clerk some more tapes, and they'd like a few more.
I'm not quite sure that we will appear Darling Buds of May, but it's something similar, mhm.
There  right.
Thank you, Graham.
Right, Item one, have we any apologies?
Councillors ,,, and .
Sorry  
Anyone else?
Yes,but has been wet all day.
Right, item two, reports and correspondence, Town Clerk.
I've got a couple of pieces of correspondence about things you've already looked at, erm, just minor alterations 
The first was alterations and link annex to West Harroll and Durrock Road.
The minor amendments   altering the roof design of a garage annex from head to gable on the west elevation and all other specs of the development rema remains unchanged, well,
Erm, the second item is, er, a conversion of a bungalow to house  West Hill.
And the amendment is, oh, the omission of a second  omission of the second floor.
All other respects of the development remains unchanged, so not converting to a house, then.
Doesn't look like it.
So they're doing nothing then, are they?
Is that what they're saying?
If it's already a bungalow.
I just read these things 
Sorry.
I would imagine what they're doing is raising the roof and not putting in the second storey.
Yes, it says  it's a reconversion of bungalow to house, West Hill.
I would like to notify you of the following amendments to the planning permission for the above development.
To remind people of the  of the omission of the second floor.
In all other respects the development remains unchanged.
This matter was approved   and myself, Deputy Chairman, rural area area planning 
They've done nothing.
I think they just had to admit that it's not, they can't, they can't do any s s sin, because it'd say so, right.
It's admitting  
Well, I don't understand that.
No, I didn't either 
I'm sorry,this confusion that er, that the upstairs, is in fact, the first floor.
And the two  yes and, and  the second floor which in fact is a third storey.
Indeed, could well be, couldn't it?
Could be like 
Mr Chairman, would I, er, can I ask that we ask for er more explanation on what they're doing there?
Yes.
I, I don't like the way that's done.
It's been approved, but I mean as  interest exactly what what's been approved.
I think they're  let us know what they've done.
Yes, er, I thought the council afraid doesn't understand 
I must object.
I can al always recall what permission we  got 
The problem is, when you get these letters out, unless you've got a plan in front of you, it's impossible to know.
Mm.
See we don't keep a plan, that's the problem.
All we got is a piece of paper, which probably on that one tells the council they recommend approval of this.
they don't get no comeback, do you?
No.
Perhaps Mr Chairman, we should erm, take copies of the plans.
your figure.
You're not late, are you?
No.
I think we'll end up with a massive filing problem, if we er,
Yeah.
try to do that.
We've got time.
This is it.
Any offers, but I don't 
Realize, you realize that these may want a new machine for correcting plans which is not er, sort of 
I always wanted an A one photocopier.
Right  photocopier
Erm, that concludes of course, the correspondence.
No
No.
Oh, sorry that was 
circulated here.
Yes, Graham, have you got 
Erm, very briefly, erm, Councillor  passed over to me, erm, a report from the planning committee about planning policy guidelines, the countryside and the rural economy, and I thought it was quite a good paper, so we've copied it and sent it round to you.
I don't propose that we make a any more discussion than that on it, but it is obviously erm, changing to the way in which they will be looking at certain items in the countryside.
Okay.
Fine.
Tha that seems a fair comment, yes.
Indeed  thought you all had copies of that I know, cos I have a copy here, and I'll leave you to digest at your own leisure.
Okay.
I think it's a useful document, er, Mr Chairman,
Er, yes.
and I think it gives a balanced view, on something you know may be, you may be interested in the future.
But I don't think we should make too much of it at this stage.
No.
I would agree with that.
Right,anything else?
Yes, we do by the looks of it.
No,thought you were going through the erm, plans, this is all the background history to the er,house.
Right, well then, that concludes, of course, the correspondence.
If we move on to item three, we see 
We have erm 
They're only three in the last 
No, no, no, that's when they finally agreed 
I said perhaps some time afterwards.
Right, okay.
Right, moving on to item four  which agreed  to consider a term following plan applications.
Application one is outline, for  for an agricultural growing  farm,.
Do we need background to this one?
Not really, no, er, we've had several people in to examine it, who thought it was erm, you know, okay where it was, and as it stands.
Somebody who lives nearby, came in and examined it the other day, and that's all I know.
Well, I think this is erm, replacing the house that's been sold off, really, isn't it, I don't think it was a good idea, really.
Which house 
The original farmhouse at .
Park, they called it, didn't they?sold off the farmhouse, they're living in another one  really
Yes,
Erm, Mr Chairman, it's been brought to my attention, in actual fact, the drawings aren't correct.
Er, as on the drawing service, it does show there are already two buildings there.
I don't believe there are.
There's only one, and it says that it was built in ninety one, and it wasn't, it was built in ninety three.
So I think there is a little bit of controversy over it.
Yeah,on one is in fact proposed, and one is an existing farm building.
Yeah.
There's only one shop that's existing.
Oh, I see.
And one shop is proposed.
It's,it it's a grain storage  isn't it?
Storage of livestock you see.
I don't know.
Well, I be I believe we should pass it.
I don't believe th that there's any relevance at all in the fact that there's something been sold off.
I think what you gotta look out for, is a block of grain here which supports a dwelling.
I can't see anything wrong in planning terms, whatsoever.
Yeah.
I would agree with that, Chairman, but I think that it should be so considered that the building's been built first.
Yep.
I agree with that.
can I just add that the information in this, is in fact incorrect.
The building was not built in ninety one, whether there's any relevance or not, where they're trying to prove that the building has been up for some time, they'd say,it's not, that building was put up this year.
I built it.
I think really I need to say that  that someone been creating happens to be that they're not  sold off and
I don't believe they have sold off
sold it off 
But let's be fair about this.
You don't know  in this case you probably do know, that the personalities are the same.
But  if the blo if that block of land had been sold off, and somebody came along and wanted to put up farm buildings and a house, then we would support it, probably, because there's an area of land there that's viable.
I agree wholeheartedly, with what we were saying, what we don't want to see is a whole one house block in the countryside, he wants to see it as part of a farmstead and order to prove that it's going to be part of a farmstead, the buildings should be prerequisite to go up first before the house does.
Is there not a time-scale 
That's for the put the  
details 
on a, on a smallholding.
Well, that's a completely different thing.
Ah.
So they're saying you know, to, to prove that it's viable they they'll give you poly if you could have a poly-tunnel.
Then they want you to run it for two year, have a mobile home, and if you could prove it's viable after two years, then there would be a reminder and we'll consider giving you permission for a house, otherwise, everybody could just put up one tun poly tunnel in half an acre and get a house, couldn't they?
Mm.
Immediately.
Here, it's a little bit different, you've got a five hundred acre holding.
Erm, I think is partially right.
Some of that land belonged to subsequent farmers.
I believe some of that land was farmed with Bishop's Court.
And I think this 
I think I might be right.
And I think it's because of the way the farmers have been split differently, and I think this is where it is very essential isn't it,
I tell you what 
The actual lands, I think it is a little bit of different things.
I, I, the butcher's rostrum you know, I'm glad you've made it.
What we're actually talking about here, is the creation of a new farm, isn't it?
Other part of the other farm 
Other bits, isn't it they took it back, you say.
Is that house in the middle of the building plot?
Yeah
Yes.
As well as the circumstance in all those cases?
Yes 
Yes 
So when, when they sold off the buildings, they made us no inclination that the  was gonna farm it, he was in another job?
Yes.
And then, then what happened  then he decided to follow his brother's footsteps and farm it because the farm, the plot of land was available.
So I, I think we've got to support this, Mr Chairman.
in respect of what happened in the past.
Yes.
No, I, I didn't know where the rules stood time-wise, about  at least established as a farm for a certain number of years, which I, why I believe 
I think, Chairman, if, if I may, is that we're going to  be enough, the agricultural buildings should be built first, but it should sited relatively close to them.
And I think he's settled on  
Creation of a farmstead.
It should be a farmstead.
We don't want to settle on  
tie up.
Oh, yes, of course.
But, as, as, as it says in the report which we've had this evening, a bit of flexibility, a bit of balance.
It's a good job, that somebody wants to revitalize these areas of land.
Yes.
And as Cardinal  said, growth is the only evidence of life.
And we could 
And you proved it 
So can I ju ju just summarize.
What  qualifications would you like to put on this, if we approve it?
something some adequate dwelling.
Buildings are put up first.
First, yeah.
I'll erm,
Well related to the 
related to the existing er agricultural or related to the agricultural buildings, that will be put up before this is built.
Aye.
yes 
All in favour?
Approval  any objections, no, carried.
There we go.
Application two is a full application for a Mr, Mr  in for a detached garage at .
I must confess when I first saw the plan, I was totally confused by it.
The roads are not quite as they are shown.
Erm, does anyone have any feelings on this application?
Harmless
With approval.
Yes.
approval.
With approval.
Item three, another full application from a Mr  for a single storey extension up at .
Looks alright.
Again I had a look at it, it seems perfectly in keeping.
For what's there.
Does anyone have any views?
I, I do support it, but this really was a case here, where people were a little naughty when this was originally built.
It was passed for a conversion, and there was a stone barn, wasn't there?
Yeah.
That's right.
And they, er when they did it, they knocked it all down, and that was really wrong and unnecessary, and though I think some of the flintstone was used, a lot of the flintstone went back in the builder's yard, and it was a criminal thing at the time.
So, you know, whilst I'm a little bit reluctant in a way  I think that's water under the bridge, and in my view actually the extension improves it all.
It does.
It appears we've done the same thing with the brick  and the flints.
I have to say there's a little bit grieving in the way 
Oh, yeah, but er, all to do with the planning, not past history.
I, I, I think that that erm, this particular, erm, the way that that, this, the barns once  were developed, in actual fact, were, were part of the death knell of erm,
Yes.
barn policy as we knew it.
And part of that barn policy even were it not worthy of extra  has always been, that the, once you carried out the renovations to the barn that was, the actual extent of the building.
So that, you know, they didn't actually look too far gone.
In fact, in a lot of cases where they took away the rights for 
Redevelopments.
The redevelopment rights.
Taken away.
And certainly the percentages very never as high as they were on other buildings, were they?
No, you could con twenty percent more than the barn that was existing 
Yeah.
and I don't know if that was exceeded in this case.
Yeah.
They did used to take away  rights, which mainly why he's put his application in for this relative  
Yeah.
I, I actually think they probably did use up all that was possible available to them at the time, and so, in some ways, this is against the spirit of the policy, although the policies have been changed, and I hear what Councillor  said about improvement to the place, and so I don't think we'd serve any useful purpose in stopping these people doing this, because they're probably not the people who were responsible for the flagrant disobeying of the rules at the time.
Mm.
But would that in any way affect what's happening now?
This is just to give you 
Oh, that's unfair  because  
Right.
All those  sorry, you spoke.
That  Mr Chairman, to hear Councillor  say that, because all we're saying is that these council officers aren't doing their job, didn't they inspect these buildings?
We did on several occasions.
But 
No, I'm, I'm talking about building inspectors, because if it was supposed to have been retained, and they demolished it, and used it, you know, in another way, and not, not built it back.
I mean, surely somebody's not carrying out their work?
I mean, it's not for us to look into, but,
No.
it seems that as Councillor  brought it up, I don't like to hear that very much.
This was all took into consideration when this application,
Yeah.
This was all brought up 
Yeah.
But that, that isn't, that would be part of  regular 
Of course it would, yes, but
It's not the right subject for application 
So, all approval.
Okay.
Carried.
Item four, application by  Homes,in conjunction with the  for thirty six flats for residential development, on the land which I assume is at the rear of  House, in erm, I will need some guides on it, because it's a ghost before my time, erm, does anyone like to 
Yeah.
Can I just put the point that it stands at the moment.
Mr Chairman, we  we were interested in buying  House, so I think I'm not necessarily to be found erm,
Can I  offer, if you like guidance.
I think it is for you purely to decide, that this application does not affect the house.
This application is only the grounds.
Mm.
I would feel you don't have to  put a particular interest on 
thinks that's the house.
No, you, that's it, you're confusing the plan, erm
Right.
Sorry.
they've just rehashed the old plan, and just drawn a red line round the bit they want us to look at, erm, this bit  know it's a computer.
Yeah, I've got, I believe that that should be made clear to you all that  the area concerned here, is the area which is surrounded by the red line.
Although the plan has been superimposed over an existing plan, erm, to be charitable it's at best confusing, erm, my feeling is that in actual fact the plan there doesn't actually show us, well enough, and you may consider that we ought to be asking for a much clearer plan before we make a decision.
So what'll they do,some back for thirty more?
In the first pla in the first place, they tried for sixty, or something, they 
should I call back when
Could you, could you do this for me?
Current permission, I think at the moment, stands for forty seven sheltered units.
That was won on appeal after withdrawal of the highway reasons, and the fact that the local authority hadn't backed up their refusal with more of the reasons which we put forward, for instance 
That was nineteen eighty six.
Nineteen eighty six, that was the appeal I attended here.
So they 
What they've done now, they've got planning permission for forty seven sheltered units.
The reason, the reason I keep  is, obviously the parking qualifications for sheltered units, are about urgh, forty five parking spaces per unit.
This application is for a lesser number of flats, but is not, is looking to clear itself of any encumbrance over occu occupancy.
So they're not sheltered, they're purely residential, units of residential accommodation, so you've been asked to look at a at an application for, for a completely new residential block on the same grounds as was occupied by forty seven sheltered units.
And doesn't take in the house.
Mm.
Is that alright?
Yes, thank you.
erm I, I erm, I am actually dead against this for various reasons, and I don't think I would bring up all the reasons that I am, because some of them are not absolutely purely planning reasons, which shouldn't be aired at this meeting, but I do feel that the provision there for thirty six properties will create a traffic hazard, and access problems, which, which I feel  will support this Council at the, the traffic authority after having done a sufficiently detailed survey, I think was the problem, wasn't it ?
That was quite right at the time.
But to access all those so close to the cable way access, I've given it as unacceptable.
I feel that the density, thirty six in there, is totally unacceptable.
I also feel that the affect on the adjoining list of properties is unacceptable.
I think that's the other, properties is that there's only 
Wah, urgh, I tried to argue the point at appeal, erm, if you look up the listing for these properties, er, in the area which back onto the mill stream, it's all the grounds are listed because it says quite clearly, that in the opinion of, they form a group, and it was one of the reasons which I'm glad you, well as you can see, this piece of ground is part of a listing, and although this existing permission, we're looking at it as a clean site, tonight, we're not looking at what has been passed.
Our job is to look at putting those thirty six units on what is a clean site 
What is a clean site 
That is because of my third contribution.
The fourth, I think is the effect that thirty six of them, remember it's not older people, it's not shelters affect on the medical centre, and my fifth reason is, I don't believe that the plan, the, that er, the application we've got is detailed enough for us to give permission for outline thirty six.
If you were giving outline for building, it would be different.
But they're asking for  for thirty six,
Yeah.
and I don't believe that is detailed for us, has enabled us sit here and say, yes, A there's room for them, and B there's enough parking, and C there's enough turning.
So for all those reasons I have to refuse.
I would support er, most of what Councillor  has said.
What, what worries me as well, is the parking.
With that, you must have thirty four parking spaces.
One point five, thirty six times, got to have fifty four parking spaces.
I cannot see that land .
In actual fact, the one point five stipulation, I think East Devon have now put up to two, haven't they?
I don't know.
They're in the process of putting it up to two.
For this type of ?
Yeah.
For any residential accommodation.
You're absolutely correct, but the plan is very confusing, very vague.
I can't even see thirty six going on there.
No.
There may be, you know, may be fifty odd parking spaces, but there's certainly not erm,
what isn't clear
wasn't too sure
Two  three storey passed, is it?
One point I'd like to make to er,
Yes 
backing up , when I er, at, at the appeal, the medical centre made a very long presentation over the proximity, the closeness to their erm, surgery and they argued about the height of buildings, now it got passed as sheltered united, er, which means elderly and quiet occupancy.
The fact that we've got partnership holders and sanctuary housing association, would seem to me that we're quite likely to get relocation and we've had all round the town at the moment, and you would have to agree that here is a very strong reason for, for the medical centre to be worried about the effect on the medical centre.
That's right, yeah.
I, I, I couldn't back that up more strongly.
Right, anyone else?
Care to say anything?
list of erm 
Yeah,
common to, to that.
We've got two letters from erm, the two adjacent neighbours, erm, particularly concerned with lack of privacy, car park next to the wall of the properties resulting in noise pollution and potential danger of property from thieves.
Pedestrian access will be a short cut for everyone, especially the school children.
They've made it a, a, a sort of through cut there, which is now going to allow people to cross over erm, it's, it's going to make erm, two points of pedestrian access shown on the north boundary at the site, will create new rights of way and will become short cuts for pedestrians and especially children.
This is undesirable and I ask that they be disallowed, that a child-proof fence be required at this boundary which is already being eroded.
Well, that's that one.
Now, when this very similar application came up before, it was opposed by the county highway authority erm,had no objection, county conservation er, recommended refusal.
Erm, the basis there was  development overlook and affect privacy of nearby dwellings of the medical centre.
Affect the setting of listed buildings detrimental to conservation areas, increasing traffic, danger to pedestrians, high standard of design not achieved to the site in the conservation area, affect a boundary wall and prob problems of subsidence and no provision for future use of  House if used, jeopardized its future should be secured.
We also recommended refusal, so did the ward member, and, refusal was indeed recommended.
Erm, we commented also on the limited access and congested area inhibits service vehicles, removals, delivery vans, which are forced to park in the main road.
Inadequate parking  unworkable in this place indicated.
Site cluttered would develop into a ru run down area.
Psychological trap, whole site too crowded with consequent noise pollution and physical stress to the residents.
Fire hazard, poor access in confined space for emergency services.
Inadequate sewage facilities with consequent overloading.
House would be isolated.
Gross intr intrusion of privacy from adjacent properties.
Size and shape of the site incompatible with surrounding area.
Movement into and out of site would create a traffic hazard.
Hazard to pedestrians regular use of footway by King's School pupils and  would be impeded by vehicles using entry.
Trees would be lost during construction of buildings.
Sites adjacent too, overlooks the medical centre, and this, well, this one maybe not so now, anticipated age range and type of resident differs from original concept.
That's enough, isn't it?
Mm.
Yeah.
one of two things 
I think you'll find the reason we said about the  on the site, and the design, was it was a detailed application,
Mm.
so we were able to consider that.
Well, of course, we can't consider that this time, because it's outline so, so we can't, you know, you must con 
Mm.
We have to go to 
We take, take the risk,
But a lot of  are actually applicable right now, but if those in favour basically resubmit 
I think we should be saying, that whilst we agree with the site in outline, we are completely against the proposed usage of that site.
Why 
We can't really say we've never approved it in outline, can we?
Can't put 
It's in the plan
You can't put too many reasons, if you're gonna say the plan is not explanatory.
If that's your reason, or you want a fresh plan,
conditions.
You cannot put conditions where you gonna refuse it, if you can't accept the plan.
You can't have both of it.
Well except some, some of these reasons were actually still quite clear, despite the state of the plan.
You know, you gotta forget that you, you must remember them, that, that it's been passed by the minister.
Something's gotta go down.
Something's gotta go, whether you give permission before this  or an appeal.
You gotta have something on 
That was for  wasn't it?
Yeah, yeah.
And that was 
You could actually  can't it?
Mm.
Yeah.
The basis, the basis that the appeal was, that because it was sheltered, several other providers didn't mean anything,
Yes, yes, the traffic  
Because there wouldn't be the traffic generation, because you could  although they argued long and hard over the ability of service vehicles to service the site.
And the inspector, would in all probability have upheld the refusal, had it not been for the withdrawal, three days before the appeal, of the highways' reasons for the refusal.
That was done because the applicants did a detailed traffic survey, albeit on a Wednesday afternoon, and the county council hadn't done a detailed traffic survey, so they felt that if they went to appeal without that detailed traffic survey to back 'em up, they would have been rightly shouted that, or disputed by the applicants that had done one.
I think you've got to add a little bit to that .
It was another one of the er, er the officers' major jobs, the East Devon officers didn't carry forward all our re 
All our recent refusals.
so they only had them, I think the major, they relied on such reports, as the strong traffic reason at that stage.
That it would never get passed, just on highways alone.
That was the officers' view at the time.
Well, I must ad I'm a bit confused by all this, erm, and I don't mean 
can I say 
One or two more reasons here to add, that in the main, I did move refusal for the reasons that I'd listed, which in the main are covered.
I'll run through them again, if you like.
If you would, please.
The first, first reason was highways.
And I would say it's on  highways with your traffic on the access and on parking, and added that to the list, I didn't say that in the first instant.
So I think that still is, is the large play on .
It appears from what I can see there, that the density in there would be too high, which it would not if it were sheltered.
It, it's worth remembering, isn't it, thirty six properties on one acre.
On one acre.
dense.
Dense 
It's ridiculous, when you take into account all the parking that's got to be provided on it.
Yes, how much do you 
Erm, and the effects on the listed adjoining properties.
Can you pass it up, please 
Which would be the  and I forget the three of them, maybe we would list them as well as Riley House.
Well, I can't remember how much room there was left at Riley House.
I need a majority .
How much parking is there left in Riley House?
Well, what are you going to do with Riley House, I mean you haven't got nothing yet.
No parking at all.
So, so,
No  at all 
No  at all.
So, it must be the effect, not only on the adjoining properties, but also on Riley House itself, and the inadequate amount of curbage left with Riley House.
Erm, my fourth one was the effect on the medical centre, bearing in mind, but I didn't say that at the time, that there's to be no longer sheltered, and there could be young families, remember, more rowdy an element, and maybe we should make details of that.
The fifth, was I considered the plans were not detailed enough for us to give permission for outline for thirty six.
You may be able to give outlines, you may be able to
Yeah.
give just outline of the site, but certainly not.
They've asked for a number, haven't they,spec specifically here, which I think that's detailed enough.
You may wish to add drainage, I mean, we're not sure there is er, adequate er, capacity in the drainage 
Well, that's the sewage again.
Sewage, and erm, some developers in the area  about contributions, don't they?
You know, if they wish to consider that?
Well, some of the reasons here can, can be repeated but, erm, if I can just run through these again.
These ones, probably haven't been raised 
Hasn't been raised.
because they might be applicable.
Erm, the first reason, is the size of the conservation area adjacent to the listed buildings.
It does not preserve or enhance the area in any way.
I think that's a fair comment to say, despite not having clear plans.
Two storey, three storey.
We've got plans of the houses, haven't we?
Pictures of the houses.
There are pictures of the individual elevations of the property.
In actual fact, you see it, it's, there's quite a confusion, that they come for outline, and given you a 
Detailed plan 
detailed plan 
Yeah, yeah.
It is, Chairman, that actually they are down against the erm, Mill Stream, the three storeys site, some of them about three storeys high.
Is that clear from the elevation?
Yeah, it says so on here, yeah.
Two houses 
Well, that, that plan is a disgrace.
It's scribbled all over it.
Mm.
Difficult to see what you've got.
You know just by looking at it,
Certainly say we wouldn't want 
Well, erm, let's, let's look  haven't got enough reasons to put down, erm,
To what do we have  parking within 
No, I, I 
Well, if they're gonna put variations  does anyone put  three million?
Two and three million.
It's eighteen, but that's 
Eighteen to twenty three.
I know it's not specifically related to farming.
You know, I do, I know we can't take that.
That's the reason, that's right, yeah 
I think we covered that.
Without saying that.
Well, I think, erm, I'll just run through them.
can't say that, let me see, er, inadequate parking spaces, you can't say that, because we're not, we sus we think we suspect inadequate parking, but it's still not clear from that plan what we actually 
No, I think what we are saying
We've actually said the effect on the listed properties including Riley House, which would be left with insufficient curbage, I think that was the point we made.
You got that one?
Mm.
Right.
You got 
And I think, Chairman, we should be reminded that this is a new application, nothing to do with the other one, and I think we should consider this as a new application.
Yeah
I think we have.
Yeah.
the reasons were brought forward.
Yes.
So how many vote  did you get erm 
Well, I got erm, highways, at the traffic end, with traffic problems, access and but obviously that  start doing this
Yeah.
the too high density for the area.
The effect on listed adjoining properties, Donithorn, Riley House and er, the other one, the name escapes me at the moment, erm, and that it will give insufficient curbage to Riley House when er, whatever development takes place there.
The effect on the medical centre with erm, possibly, erm, different types of people living there Plans not detailed enough to erm, show for thirty six.
Sewage and site in a conservational area, the houses are not appropriate.
Yeah.
You keep mentioning three storey building if they got to the amendment 
I think that's 
The reason, basically the building  
weeks' solid trouble with them.
Gentlemen, I, I might  I think we should add that the presumption for two accesses on the boundary against the land that  is run.
Because I think that one of them actually enters in the  medical centre, doesn't it?
Yes, one of the  access in the back of the centre, yes, I'm not sure 
Yeah.
see that.
It's on the site plan, there  yeah, they've marked it in.
what do you want to know?
Pedestrian access  is it?
Close one of those.
Close pedestrian accesses.
These two of 
The trouble is you've got a job to read them, haven't you?
There's one there, one further to the left 
one's into the land that  play area, or just below it.
Then one's right in the doctor's area.
So?
So the presumption that they would be allowed to do that's wrong, I, I don't think that should do it.
That's right, well why can't they go out beside the medical centre, again?
what are you trying to do?
That goes into the erm,
Playground, doesn't it?
playroom, or I don't know.
Children's playground, goes right into the playground.
Yeah.
Right.
Bet the children'll have their say.
Plenty of 
I think that's a good enough reason, when I say I don't particularly want to add anything else.
Yeah, that's right.
Do we have a proposal?
I second it.
second it.
second it.
All in agreement, with, with views that are recommended?
All agreement with refusal?
Ye yes, sorry yeah.
Oh yes.
Did  abdicate or what?
Right, well the next, the next application is, is not on your agenda, it's application four A.
Erm, it was an omission, an accidental omission.
it got hooked on the back of that one with a large paper clip.
It is for a Mr erm , Ridgeway, and it's for a two storey extension to an existing house.
Do you have any comments on that?
I've looked at the house, looked at the site.
Can't see it look up to anybody else.
give it approval.
I would agree with that.
How do we, how do we,
I second that 
how do we stand legally?
Okay.
That's okay, we don't have to advertise 
We don't advertise 
No, we don't advertise.
So, that's all right, we don't really 
that's it.
Right.
It was an omission on our part.
Yes, I just wondered whether we've got a problem or not?
We, we would have if we didn't do it, because the applicant quite rightly said, what, he said was gonna do it without us 
Yeah.
Not, not with the timescale 
I understand it may well be delegated, anyway.
single storey 
Right.
extension.
Two storey.
Two storey.
What's the  the existing ?
Looks fine.
move for agreement.
Item five is a full application from Mr T  for er,
Demolition of the 
Oh, demolition commercial oh, I was domestic commercial, couldn't think.
Demolition commercial, for the construction of a pair of mews cottages at  Ottery St Mary.
Does anyone have any comments on that?
We do, Mr Chairman, that
Looks like it's very inhabitable.
Yes, it looks very nice.
The old slaughterhouse, wasn't it?
Hasn't the abattoir gone?
The old slaughterhouse, wasn't it?
The building's still there, and the back
not a patch on the abattoir.
And er, all the neighbours are extremely happy to see a pair of cottages, rather than any new conversion 
What about the traffic, though?
Well, they have to put up the 
There is access to the area.
Is that the site, or is it under development  not really.
No, no, no, they're only just, actually fit, if you look at the plan, by creating an access some garaging,
There's a maximum allowed to do there.
Maximum you can get in.
What, garages as well?
Garages as well.
parking.
Ain't gonna affect the light of the houses that's already there in, in the street, is there?
No.
Cos they're always cribbing about, er
Is that 
In actual fact, you see the plan, the two houses are going to the bottom end of the site, as far away to the  adja adjacent to West Holm.
So don't think they should put three,
three properties on that little, on, on that coming out between the butchers and erm,
Oh, that's access, oh, that's access to back of the grocery ones.
And we, we, the permission was given to take away the garage.
One turned it into a front room and one going down, and two in the alley on the left hand side, one in the alley on the right hand side.
Access to three round the back.
Access to what was once, but is now  house, and was the access to the abattoir.
Right.
motorway next 
Yes, motorway access is going to be a problem there, the increase traffic.
No.
I don't see it,
I  
It's decreased traffic it's decreased the traffic for what was using it as a commercial premises.
Right.
I 
Getting rid of a nuisance that could be there.
Yeah
Like getting rid of a nuisance that could be there.
Yes.
If, if they could use this as a 
It is also worth remembering that when they put in for an application for ten flats, the advice from the  Authority was that was only development and no parking,
Yes.
but, that they would look favourably on two.
Yeah.
Because I was quite heavily involved with that, and they withdrew that application, pending putting in one to com comply with what they were told from East Devon.
move approval.
Right, move approval.
Yes.
Has anyone else giving reason for these 
I think we should there.
I think we should say that we consider that that's er, would be far better than the old commercial units.
Very attractive.
Enhancement of the area.
Yeah, enhancement, that's a good term.
I don't know.
S 
Begins with an E.
Well done.
You've got that  word
I was afraid that he would say what a pair  
Right.
I don't see it .
Er, Manor, Holden Homes, detached bungalow, double garage at  West Hill.
Incidentally, erm, West Hill, had copies of those two that are relevant to them, and have no objection.
Mm.
They have relied, or 
Oh, they did, yes.
I have no objection, Mr Chairman.
Approved.
Move approval.
Fine.
Moved.
Yes.
Right.
Approved.
Application number seven.
Full application by the Otter  Trust for anne annex extension, and it is an amendment to an approved scheme.
This is an Otter .
It's alright, isn't it?
How do you feel about ?
It looks alright.
Move approval.
Agree.
Approval.
Item eight is a full application for a Mr J  for a carport, at  
Miss  it's a 
Oh, sorry.
I knew I'd be corrected there.
Miss  stroke Mr .
West Hill, and I'm sure you're all familiar with the  site.
of the site.
What's left of it.
Could I make the point, that I think the footings were already there, because they'd started their double garage, which they then weren't allowed to have, and I think this is gonna stand on the footings.
I think it's a very attractive site, and I
don't see anything wrong with the carport.
I think the bungalow's blended in very well.
Yeah.
I already approved of it.
Whilst I was against it initially, I am now very much in favour of it.
What I'm gonna say,
if it goes anything like that plan, I think that that carport looks hideous, actually.
Well, it's a trellis work with a poly  roof.
against it already.
Yes.
It is a temporary, I would say it's more temporary than permanent.
I mean, I know on the plans are not very good, but it doesn't show where there is a roof, presumably there's a roof beside it, just like  trellis .
I mean, I don't know what it is, and I, I think it looks pretty horrible.
it in there, but I, I think a double garage would have looked better than that, actually.
I think that's worse than the double garage, and I'm afraid that I disagree, Mr Chairman.
In my opinion, I think we'll have an application for a garage in twelve months' time.
Yeah, yeah.
I think, I think so
What happened, happened up there, once, once that was lost on appeal, right, the whole of the handling of that by East Devon council just been poor, and then, what did they do, they decided to go for appeal, which was upheld over the garage.
What they were really fighting was the principle of what had gone on before.
Now, what you're saying is, if we don't allow 'em a carport or something there, they're gonna park outside.
Quite rightly.
Now do you want to provide them with any parking facilities off  parking?
No.
Parking there without a carport?
Well, I can't con I, I think that could be very attractive, myself with the trellis work and roses 
And gro grow something up it?
Yeah.
If it matches in like the rest 
Er
I mean, I sold  up around West Hill you said many a time, how we think that's 
Yes 
Yeah, but it's very, it is very unfortunate, in my view, the way this system, it's not this council, it's East Devon that mishandled this.
You must get back to this every time.
The access was never meant to be  it was meant to be further in  and  and we all for well know, the permission was for a drive to come down through the wood, which would have been very attractive and a garage on the end of the property.
Which would have been very attractive, unobtrusive and none of us would have been against it, and when they came to put in the application to convert it, making it a meter wider and turn that into an extra bedroom or whatever was, we  said  that there was no parking, and we  said  what would happen and East Devon went  ahead  and approved that, and exactly in everything we've said which was recorded in this council 
Quite right.
And then, you know,
I feel quite aggrieved in the way that we've handled it and East Devon have mishandled it.
It's gone into us, and we've done  it's here that's looked at it properly, and walked through the trees and even looked at every marking in the trees that were gonna come down.
Done the whole job properly, and what happens, in come the major authority and just  everything we done out the window.
Right, well,
record as well.
I I was just thinking,
selling  
that you may make it a condition of the carport roof, that they would put four inches of topsoil and plant grass there.
It looks to me on the plan,
though that it looks such a flimsy structure,that you know its gonna be shored up with walls.
It has to be walled 
On the application, the walls are in wood, and that's as much you get with a polycarbonate roof.
Yeah.
Well, I must 
hold it up.
It's going to look like a garage,
Yeah, well 
How do you feel about this application?
Are we in approval ?
Put it to the vote, and let's get on with it.
Right.
All those in favour of approval?
All those against?
I just pass it.
that's right.
I think we ought to record it to, to West Hill council 
Yes.
No.
Come on everybody  come on Clerk.
Alright let's have it.
Approved.
Yeah.
Did you say that the ratepayers approved?
Yes.
They did.
It should be noted.
I think we should put that on the list 
no objections from the 
But  approval recommended by the West Hill ratepayers.
May I suggest you do that then, I don't like to look the other way .
May I suggest you do that.
That's brilliant.
They're a  standard, but they like your carport.
This is an interesting thing, you and I vote against it, we are obviously dead against ,
Well, I, I don't se 
Well, I, I don't say that everything you do is lost.
I don't plan the agenda, any other planning business?
Anyone have any other planning business?
No, thank you.
Planning committee closed, I wish you all a very Happy Christmas.
Thank you Councillor.
Same to you.
Same to you.
I got to phone the councillors.
What, tonight, or what?
Tomorrow night.
Sorry?
I think I'm gonna have to give my apologies for tomorrow night.
anybody who does fancy it, just  but if you fancy popping round my house Christmas morning
Yes.
Aft afternoon and in the evening.
for a bit of grog.
Er, I shall be  unable to attend, unfortunately.
What a shame 
Is there a bus laid on 

Right.
Over to you 
Oh sorry 
Do you want to put that on the full screen?
Right so here we've got er the criteria surrounding  P L C.
I'm gonna start in reverse order.
I ain't gonna start with the strengths we're starting with the  the threats basically to to that s er .
Basically it's in the news at the moment and it's er  very prelavent to the criteria surrounding the company at the moment.
So reading down there  number one threat, the shareholders.
And most of you  are probably aware  that last year the the company tried to  renege on their P L C P L C status and buy out existing shareholders erm  and the furore surrounding that erm the price that they were trying to  repurchase the shares from the  existing shareholders  er caused a lot of discontentment  er surrounding that scenario.
So the actual shareholders themselves, I think there's about  forty one thousand of them,in total are quite a big threat to basically the the management of the company at the moment with regards to the direction of the company and the actual opportunities  er for the future expansion and development of products and various market segments etcetera.
Sorry 
Oh terribly sorry.
I didn't think we'd started.
I won't repeat it  
Can you can you say that again?
Right d developing the angle on the shareholders  is the non-executive directors.
Erm within the last two or three months I think they've appointed three or four non-executive directors.
Erm  the main difference between a non-executive director and a  director basically is that the directors are added to by the shareholders and are re-elected at the annual general meetings.
These people are basically independent to the company but they are appointed  basically by the directors of the company in a  capacity and basically  er another safeguard or a check on the actual management  what you would call management er governance of the company.
And it was one of the critici criticisms  that came out of the er I think it was one of the annual general meetings  non-executive directors in there  to oversee  er basically as another control against  Mister  himself I suppose really at the end of the day.
That's what they're trying to aim at.
Moving down there, market barriers.
Er and that basically  erm entails the fact that there's er a lot more er competition basically coming from Eastern Europe.
It's not just  er a case of er  North America dominating the computer scene there erm   er tariffs and trade barriers and what have you  erm in various non E non E E C countries  which i compose quite a  stumbling block for future  and expansion in various  developing countries.
Especially the Pan-Eastern Europe er Pan-Eastern Pacific  area.
Which is quite a fast developing and growing area at the moment.
Overseas competition  basically there again is  I mean  er erm  okay I mean I B M I mean they're collapsing day by day and  companies like I C L and what have you.
And basically it's it's the actual thrust of overseas competition basically.
Not necessarily Eastern Europe but also from the Pacific Basin again there.
So we're looking on Global terms here  erm basically  and also within the E E C so basically  to get market penetration.
You can't just sort of think think about North America  get it in isolation, you gotta look basically as  E er Euro P L C  market place.
The economic climate obviously  the present economic climate in the U K, E E C and the world is not exac exactly er assisting in any shape or form with regards to the development or growth or even stability.
Erm so basically it's not just er a threat to the the actual market in general it's an even more acute threat to individual places within that market.
As  er competition becomes even more fierce and er competitive and  yeah well the threat of threat to the  the weaknesses which are connected to some of the threats actually .
Right  okay we'll work form the top down actually.
Alan  there  quite a big weakness within the company.
Erm by the city  in the city institutions of London he's seen as quite a a robust character  but  they don't quite see eye to eye on the issues  of the company.
Public relations  well  as I've already outlined there the actual fiasco surrounding the proposed er share repurchase there  was a public relations nightmare form beginning to end.
And also with regards to product development and actual  er image of the company there, the relations side is  quite weak.
Financial performance that is basically the financial strength or weakness of  at the present.
Obviously it's losing market share  price competition impinging right down to the bottom line left right and centre.
It's actual product range is  very fragmented.
Erm basically  leading down there the products and corporate strategy there  they're having difficulty identifying what their product range .
Who who their individual competit competitors are within those product lines.
So they haven't actually gotta formed a corporate strategy on the actual prod product development.
Financial  individual erm competition within each market segment .
Opportunities.
Right here we go yeah number one opportunity satellite T V.
And that nost that is not necessarily just based within the U K.
It's it's it's  the  thing that's er keeping them going in various aspects but obviously, definitely on the European scale there  er satellite television  is an area which I would be very very surprised if they did not er develop a hell of a lot more.
Infrastructure, that's related to the actual infrastructure of the er microelectronics, electronics and  computer software market within the U K as as a rule.
Erm basically as a new market opportunities come  he's gotta develop er and adapt to those any new opportunities that do arise.
Be it new products, new competition and new markets that do arise.
And I mean the actual  the U K market those in those areas is quite developed and has got quite a reputation but obviously it has got  to be able to develop develop and adapt accordingly  over time.
Market demographics yeah.
Erm  basically it's  er  like the collapse of I B M makes a  the total world market, things like that.
And that's gonna create opportunities but also  er the possibilities of joint ventures  be it on a U K, Europe or the world basis er  joint ventures will  I mean a lot more cooperation between er th the large players with regards to product development what have you.
Rath rather than competing against each other to develop  basically their products have gotta be ab able to work with each others machines.
sort of exchange technology   research and development.
And that basically that amounts to standardiz standardization of products.
So basically  I B M P Cs  and things like this  like that.
We can actually er  use various actual computer equipment er open systems  er recently new development as well which basically a lot of companies have been inputting their share resources to develop this area.
Er the  market  we're looking at there the Pan-Pacific basin there especially showing a   market at the moment.
till the end of the decade  er I think it's   number one d er developing market  so  that's the place that you want to get into.
The last  they have actually got some strengths.
Erm  number one strength Alan  erm  although he doesn't see to eye T eye eye to eye with er a lot of the city institutions and a lot of the shareholders  erm he he does know his business  erm  and he has quite a strong character, very forceful and .
So he's  er in quite a strong position with regards to the actual  corporate governance and strategy of the company there which is  .
The management staff, good quality staff, very high highly technical expertise etcetera so they've got  staff there.
Non-executive directors, that is a strength  erm it's also a threat  but it is also a strength but basically it's acting as a  sort of yardstick to control or actually guide the actual management right down from board level right down the company there.
Research and development.
Well I'm only gonna a month ago they did actually er  officially announce the launch of a  product there  it's the pen writing pad personal organizer there.
So basically it's like a little computer there  and it reads your handwriting basically on your little  electropad there.
like a glorified er filofax.
Two hundred and ninety nine plus VAT is the   retail value  .
Erm  which is  points up a weakness there on the public relations side there I mean going back to their  post share repurchase  they said that they'd got no new products in the pipeline, no research and development   really sort of throwing  anything up in the near future .
Two or three months after that he's got a new product out  they're trying to keep it slightly quiet and saying that it's not a world beater and   sort of er  go back to their more in innovative .
But there again that's  the shareholders er don't see   you know like to get a bit more er information and good public relations for the company.
And  as a general outline it's a strength of the company U K P L C the actual  computer market within the U K has  worldwide reputation for its quality, technical expertise and it has already got a good er holding in various companies all around the world.
A being on a telecommunications base and the actual software associated with that as well.
Erm thank you  any questions?
Could you leave it on the  the er 
projector there
Right yeah.
thank you.
Right anybody like to make any comments on that?
It was quite long.
Pardon.
It was quite long.
Quite long quite long yes but I 
don't worry about the length  the content at the moment.
thought gone into that isn't there?
Yeah.
Er one observation I would like to make is that you actually got certain items appearing in  er more than one place.
Erm that tends to be unusual but in this particular case it is very relevant.
And the the fact that you've got Alan  there in the strengths and weaknesses is  without Alan   may struggle  significantly because it's it's his management style, his vision which drives a company on.
But the the weaknesses is that er he because he's a P L C then he's got to erm  kowtow to the system to the er the city  and therefore erm  that is always going to be seen as a problem for him  as am individual.
He's gone part of the way along the r road by doing what you've just been describing  non-executive directors but erm it could be a weakness if he's seen as a er  erm a business man and cavalier as opposed to somebody who fits in with the style that the city's always looking for.
Yeah?
Any other comments?
Alright well let's leave that one  for the moment.
Erm thank you very much Brian and the team well done.
Next group 
Now I'm sorry I haven't brought an acetate.
You haven't you're gonna draw right okay.
No oh just
Did you want a pen then to write on the board or not?
Erm
There's a pen there.
There's lots of them  
There's lots of them okay well
Erm it's entirely up to you if you want to write up you can.
There's a pen I think in the white box behind you.
But if you want to talk straight that's okay.
Yeah right okay I'll talk  unless anyone wants me to erm put them on the 
Right.
board.
We've chosen er British Rail for our slot as opposed to Waterstones.
And I'll go through some strengths that we feel they have and the monopoly obviously  is one of the er major strengths.
Intercity gives them a very good image  if your journey was on time but it's definitely there as a a positive thing.
Erm straight into the city centres of most major cities so you er if you travel by train you're there in the centre if that's where you want to be.
Erm  with the electrification we feel that it's a  very clean and green way of travel.
Erm bulk movement of materials  and the national network it has.
We  opportunities are privatization but we've also said that is a threat.
Er specialist trains would be an opportunity we felt and the history of er trains to emphasize that.
The communication that they now have with electrification.
Franchises and train leasing  we think are opportunities but still possibly underneath the er umbrella of British Rail.
Weaknesses, inflexibility of working practises.
The image  erm particularly on the time keeping  of trains.
Aging rolling stock particularly in the Southeast.
Overcrowding on certain trains.
Poor safety record.
Erm  vulnerabilit erm vulnerable infrastructure and poor customer relations.
The catering we feel could do with erm  er  improvement.
I know they've had several attempts at that but we still don't think they've got it right.
And we think er in some cases it's very expensive.
And not happy about the structure of pricing for travel  whether you have a single or return or s erm a saver they er they don't seem to make sense in many cases.
Erm the weakness is er  government requirements often inhibit  .
Er threats,again as I said privatization, lack of funds,road haulage,safety  erm again bad.
open profits making lines  will survive  we feel that's a threat.
And er because of that then the price is out of the range for a lot of people to travel by train.
And coaches  long distance travel are coming in so that again is a threat to the erm  using British Rail.
And the economic climate which we think is obviously a weakness .
And those are  what we've  thought out for British Rail .
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
.
Any questions on that any comments?
Yes I don't agree with the poor safety record, in in in my view and I think it's supported by fact  that rail is the safest way to travel  anywhere  any time.
Erm  this is quoted funnil finny enough by air travel,that without question rail is the safest way to travel  and in fact  to me that's a strength not a weakness.
M my my view of that was that's the one I'd a question mark against
Yeah.
cos  I don't think it's the problem of a  erm a safety record I think it's the perceived 
Right.
safety record 
Yeah.
it's the perceived safety record yeah 
because in fact the statistics show it to be very very good indeed.
Yeah.
Erm and it's a bit like timekeeping I mean they they've got their own system now for evaluating how good they are at time keeping and I think the  erm  the figure they try and hit is about ninety five percent isn't it of trains arriving on time.
I think it's the image that so many trains are late.
Yes It's the image that Yeah 
Well that's the problem.
That's the problem.
Again if you think about how many people actually provide their goods on time to their customers ninety five percent of the time or provide the goods and provide them on time that record is their record is very good.
It's the perceived
But Gordon haven't haven't 
Yeah yeah.
British Rail shifted the goal posts on time.
Yes.
Right.
Because they couldn't meet  c couldn't meet what they were previously doing they have altered it in such a way as to make it easy to achieve.
They've just added time on to all the journeys.
Yes.
But they've they've been doing that since er last century.
Yeah but you gotta remember these are  that these are being posed on basically
They'd be setting their own goals, targets and what have you.
Yeah.
And they're having   these  X billions to finance er capital investment cos cos they're not a private company.
I mean the furore about actually leasing trains has taken several years to develop  erm  And you just have to look at  at the moment now and he doesn't know if he's sinking or swimming basically.
Er  a complete dead loss about which way to go and turn basically.
Yeah yeah.
Erm   you go back onto the performance guidelines that have been basically imposed   citizens charter really at the end of the day.
Well yeah I mean  
But a lot of I mean   I mean there's no sort of set- up and strategy for rail as a  sort of within an integrated transport policy  phone call from er John Prescott who er  Tories in in transport.
there's no sort of like ten year corporate strategy for British Rail.
You were gonna make a point there.
Well I was gonna come back on this record of safety.
I mean one of the points we made there was that the infrastructure is vulnerable.
I mean just because  it might be safer to  travel on the train doesn't   from the fact that the incidence of  where people gain access to the rails  and  there are near misses either to the drivers or the people on level crossings  or everything else.
They're all added in just because they don't have an accident  doesn't might go for making it the safest  infrastructure perhaps.
So safety is a thing which is  can't just be said Oh it's it's safer to to go by train than it is to cross the road.
It's getting worse.
It depends if you're in the right place at the wrong time or the wrong place at the right time.
I mean y you you take a situation of  stuff getting dropped from bridges ont in front of trains.
You know  quite apart from the fact that you get a situation where somebody sets fire to the infrastructure  and it closes down the whole of the East coast main line like it did two days ago .
It's vulnerable.
but nevertheless its er its safety record is still a damn site better than the roads.
What did you say about the cost ?
Yes well the thing is that the erm we feel 
What  it's the structure for the a for the average person.
If you're if you're say a family with small children yes you can get all sorts of con concessions.
If you're a student you can get concessions.
If you're an old age pensioner you can get get concessions but for the average person who who isn't one of those no chance.
Well the the situation is also that it's confusing in terms of Apex, Supersavers, Savers, Nonsavers er you can't travel on these trains at certain times, you've got to plan your journey three months ahead if you want to get the maximum savings and all the rest of it.
You know i it's
Yeah  you wanna have subsidies yo that you get on foreign rails you know you get 
Well that that's one of the arguments for remaining under government funding.
next to nothing can't you over in  some countries .
So it's confusing or overcomplex 
Yes yes it is yes that's right it is.
Yeah.
Yes I mean we can understand that if you're gonna get a cheaper ticket you'll have to book well ahead and obviously they've got to  to try and ease the the overcrowding on  some trains.
There's one other point 
The sa the same applies for  pricing  virtually to anything else if  if you're going to take the maximum advantage of flying by air you either have to book it well in advance through a package or whatever or whatever or else you'd have to go along and sit in a bucket shop hoping that somebody's gonna 
Yeah that's right.
turn up with an empty seat.
It's not as not as simple as that though.
I mean if you walk into the station on a day wanting to get on a train there are still several different fares you can pay.
is different from the cost per mile down South  on tickets as well.
there's no standard thing
over the Southeast market cos they've got a captive market.
Why does it cost me ten pounds fifty return from Darlington but if I take a single to Darlin to Darlington from York it costs me ten quid.
Yeah that's right.
I mean  anomalies and there's different prices if you go from Cardiff to Bristol it'll cost you X amount if you go Bristol to Cardiff it costs you something different.
They wanna get their act straight.
So it's the over-complexity of pricing.
Yes.
Yeah.
I I had er a return ticket from York to Gloucester and I was fortunate enough to get a lift back  so I went into the station to ask if I could get a refund  on the other half of the return and they said Sure you owe us four pounds.
Because the price of a single was almost the same as the price of the return but to get a refund you have to pay an administration charge which when you add it all up comes to me owing them four pounds.
And then they tried to take and I said Well thank you very much I won't have a refund after all.
and they tried to take the bloody ticket off me.
Oh I'm surprised they didn't charge you for the cost of a single journey.
Right okay any more points ?
Erm another strength I think erm and this is once again point of view but it it literally is er is the track itself track access.
You y if you set out on a train under normal circumstances you're confident that you're going to arrive in London at  
At some point soon.
As my daughter did on Sunday in two and a half hours.
And er on the other hand you can get in your car and you can get down to  suddenly find they've got the the road up or E G as we did coming down to York today  there's  driving his  his er surface lifter down the road and and er you're stuck in a traffic jam for a wee while er
It can still happen on the train  
now now you're guaranteed you're you're stuck on electric  all you need is one fault at Northallerton two days ago and you close the East coast main line completely.
it's more it's more 
Everybody who was on those trains 
it's more unlikely.
Yes but on the trains you're stuck.
Now in the car you can say Oh sod this I'll back-dive and double, drive this way, down there and you you skip it.
When you go and buy your ticket and you're setting off on that day
Mm.
erm  you're warned in advance of any delays aren't you.
wonderful wonderful last Easter weekend back from Glasgow we were warned there was gonna be delays and we were fortunate we were one of the groups who came back fairly early.
There were other people who started back at midday  from Glasgow and got to York at midnight to find all the loos had been closed  and things like that.
When it happens with a train it's it's one hundred percent you're absolutely stuck with the thing.
you know if you've ever been stuck in this you know you've got an appointment somewhere  you know the the frustration's incredible.
The sa the same thing can happen with air travel.
blooming airport overnight.
Or else you can be on the way back from from from Europe and suddenly find, Oh I'm sorry that plane's not leaving tonight Mister  would you mind going and spending the night in the holiday hotel in so and so and so and so.
Ah you spent the night in a Holiday Inn great on a train you're stuck on the train.
It doesn't make  
The same thing could happen if you walked out of here this afternoon there there could be a bomb s threat between A and B wherever you're going  and you can't even get round  
a bomb threat on a train than I would in an aeroplane Robert.
Okay I think we'll  as I thought we could actually start the discussion  
Well who's gonna who's gonna be using the erm
Erm  right er can we make a start ladies and gentlemen.
Erm good day er my name is Philip   er I am the quality controller for the proposed  Water Company.
Er and I'd like to introduce you briefly to the company.
Erm as the result of a a board of directors decision taken on er March twenty second nineteen ninety three  it was proposed that a a new public liability holding company named the  Water Company be formed  er from the capitali er capitalization of assets currently surplus to requirements of the founding company namely .
Er the York based company will be a wholly owned subsidiary of  limited.
Er trading is er expected to commence within the with the naming of the company at an opening ceremony at the registered office headquarters in  York.
The ceremony to be held on the twenty fourth of April nineteen ninety three.
Er it is proposed that the  Water Company er be formed with the express intention of capturing eight point five percent of the United Kingdom bottled water market.
Er this being gradually achieved over a three year phased expansion period.
Erm in year one growth  is expected to be within a targeted range up to two and a half percent.
In year two er up to six percent and in year three eight percent of the United Kingdom bottled water market.
The founding company is being  use surplus existing production, manufacturing  sales, distribution and transportation capacities in the United Kingdom currently operated by  limited.
Er to that end now er I would like to hand you over to  progressively to my colleagues.
Er and the first gentleman I'd like to call on er is Mister Anthony  who is our Marketing Director to give us a market overview and assessment of the product opportunity.
Okay.
Thank you very much.
Right now good afternoon ladies and gentlemen.
And as my colleague has already stated  we're a new company and we aim to capture eight percent of the  er U K bottled water market.
Erm the way we've er determined this is through research by a market intelligence unit er which has been aided by retail market intelligence and utilized er  as the basis of our research and our calculations.
Er we've used this to analyze the consumer preferences and purchasing questions indicated erm  through through this research.
And they indicate there that there are excellent opportunities opening up in the United Kingdom bottled water market across the full range of available products commonly consumed and  specifically identified  friendly product ranges.
The total available market consists of thirty percent of the total population of the United Kingdom.
But this market is expanding at a rate of at least five percent and predictions and calculations show that this is  far in e in excess of this base rate.
The two ranges the firstly still water  and secondly bottled s sorry the two ranges are firstly still water and secondly sparkling water.
Both ranges will be produced using both high quality Yorkshire Pennine water and good quality ergonomically practical  using the York   er using   a good quality ergonomically practical co containers  using the  own brand label.
It is our aim to exploit this growing market  the full range of resources and materials and systems that are available   er as previously mentioned by my colleague.
Erm our marketing has been targeted on a geographical basis er on three main areas.
The London region, Yorkshire and in Scotland.
Again erm all of this information erm provided er backs up our  er our plan.Further market research based upon  information has refined our target area groupings by socio and ec economic group, age and sex.
Where these key indicators illustrate the most favourable conditions  er we are going to base our main advertising campaign and I'll now hand you over to my colleague .
Er thank you Tony for that most illuminating insight into the bottled water market.
Erm and I should now like to introduce er Thomas , Director of Public Relations, who will talk us through  's product brands and competition followed by a detailed review of where our product fits into the market and it's U S P.
I wanna Right the products erm  the product brands and opportunities erm.
The main competitors are are Perrier Water with te twenty four percent of the market, Highland Spring with six percent, Well's Soft Drinks own label  er twenty eight percent, Nestle four percent, er  Coca-cola Schweppes four percent, Evian fifteen percent.
And there are forty other companies  erm which have eighteen percent of the market.
Er  Okay  other com competitors we've we see are er all companies which sell mineral water.
Erm  to include ourselves.
Erm people like Tizer, people like Coca-cola.
Now these are huge companies with vast volume of sales in the flavoured er drinks market.
Now we see ourselves entering into this market  not immediately  but in the not too distant future.
Er our intention would be to direct our advertising towards the natural fresh qualities of the product and the powerful lobby of the Greens.
However  the flavoured water is not our first priority.
At a later stage erm in our program we would also be looking at larger containers of erm of water er something like  well in our third year  erm five litre  canisters.
Now another very another and very important er competitor is the water boards.
Erm and they have problems with er the quality of water  and the sa standards not re reaching the sort of specifications er the pu public not trusting the er product and and consequently looking for alternatives.
Er seasonal shortages erm the droughts of recent years particularly in the Southeast have made supplies of good drinking water less than secure.
Erm and er  that's where erm records show us that er  wa bottled water is .
Erm as it happens this is the area where a spring of mineral water  here for er for us to exploit.
Erm fluor fluoridation erm er this is a particular prob problem for many people who don't like additives to water.
Erm and spring water produced within the regulations of the E C would be pure of any additives.
Our market we see our market as being national.
would give us their backing and channels of distribution  er we shall be in correct in direct competition with our competitors in the a areas which we consider to be most profitable.
We shall place our advertising where it will be most cost effective.
And we shall continue to update our sales strategy  as we see the the market develop.
Our product  our product  is first class Yorkshire spring water obtained from the springs rising from the Pennines  bottled in Yorkshire to comply with  erm U K national mineral water regulations  E C directive.
Er we shall be producing it in three hundred and thirty C C bottles to meet the demand for mixer drinks and a small bottle for trade market.
will be produced in both still and sparkling excuse me   as per bottle.
We shall be producing in Tetrapak  and for s er for machine vending and supermarket shelves.
In litre bottles er both still and s sparkling for use in bars and in and in a house where there's regular use.
In two in two litre containers  still only in this case to cater for those people generally er generally needing a larger supply available in the home, in caravans etcetera.
All these will be competitively competitively priced erm alongside market leaders in price for quality.
Whilst we recommend a retail price for all sizes as with all similar product on the market  it will be up to the vendor to adjust for the prices  the margins that they require.
Our unique proposition  is bottled in blue glass   erm   the unique proposition er bottled in blue glass to ref reflect the clean  cut image which is different to our competitors.
And also using the distribution of  of  deliveries to the door daily we can also use the sales staff to as assist us in distribution.
Okay right  
pretty encouraging view of  approach to the bottled water market and to the anticipated stance therein.
Er I hope that now that Anne  who is our very capable financial director will enlighten us with a breakdown of costs and an insight into  targets with attendant indicators of relative volumes.
Right erm I'm not sure actually whether you're going to be able to see this because .
Erm my initial talk is on the actual breakdown of the costing for this exercise.
Erm I've broken down the costing into each of the sizes we will produce, the thirty three millilitres, the one litre and the two litre sizes.
I've also broken the smaller ones down into the cost for the still and the carbonated water.
Erm  the actual percentage of the ingredients used over the first year erm is about five percent for water, twenty three point six percent for the bottle, I'll explain that later that's quite high, the cap is four percent, one percent for the gassing,erm one percent for the case, two point seven percent for labour, four percent for transport, a general overhead would be about seventeen point one percent.
Erm  we've made a provision for interest  payable on the loan  on the assumption that we may have to borrow money on an overdraft basis.
And we've made er that's erm accounts for about one point six percent of the total cost.
For the advertising which is the biggest erm  amount we have to spend on is actually forty percent.
The advertising's actually larger than other products are currently spent on their advertising but w we feel that with the launch of a new product and trying to catch eight and a half percent of the mar market over erm three years that we do need to spend heavily in the department so like I say that's forty percent.
But that's only in the first year, in the second year erm the percentage will reduce quite rapidly and  we're only spending half  the second and third years.
Erm back to the bottles.
Now we had quite a problem trying to obtain erm a bottle size the two litre size at a reasonable price when we set out on this er thing.
So it's costing us approximately twenty pence for each bottle and that's very high, that's a very high quality bottle.
We've just been in discussions with the manufacturers and we actually but we're hoping to get a discount on that in the near future so we're hoping the cost of that will come down.
The contribution erm made by each of these products after we've used an average sales price erm is seven and a half pence  roughly for the smallest size, erm about eighteen pence average for the one litre size and eleven twelve percent twelve pence sorry for the large size.
Erm the large size is really a relatively it it's a smaller percentage of the market so we've had to price it as far down as we can that's why our contribution for the large size is not as large as the   Erm the overhead the sorry the capital costs erm will be a total of two hundred and ninety thousand which is two hundred for factory extensions, eighty thousand for plant and ten perc ten thousand for the gasser.
Erm the pricing of the product.
We priced it at a wholesaler price, a retailer price and a con the price of a consumer.
Erm  the small bottles will be b er be between thirty two and thirty five pence to the consumer.
The market average is about thirty one pence but we feel that we can cos we're proc producing such a high quality product that we can raise the price above that.
For the one litre size the average price is about sixty seven pence.
Whereas the market size is it it varies considerably.
We've found that own brands are from thirty five pence up to the top quality brands are something like eighty five pence and we feel we've hit the market in the middle there.
So we're quite happy with that price.
Erm the two litre size now like I say once again we're having erm problems with getting erm an economical  er cost for the bottle of this so our price is actually slightly higher than the other market price.
Once again the market price erm for this size is from fifty three pence for own brand sizes up to about eighty pence for up sorry eighty two pence for erm the top quality products.
Unfortunately we're gonna have to market ours at about eighty two pence, but we feel this is quite reasonable considering that the vast the biggest sales of this two litre size would be from the milk floats and would delivered to the door.
So we feel that's quite reasonable.
And the market the market size really for in year one is two and a half percent which is fourteen and a half million litres of water.
Year two is six percent which is thirty four point eight million litres of water.
Year three eight and a half percent of the market which is forty nine point three million litres of w water.
Erm we feel quite confident that we can reach these targets.
Erm and that's the product analysis erm from my part of the the team.
Thank you.
Thank you Anne for that very detailed and realistic view of the potential available to the company er I'd now like to call on Tom  again er to give us a highlighted familiarization of the advertising and promotional campaign  Water intend to pursue 
Right our adverti advertising and commercial campaign.
Er to reach our target objectives we ha we need a very strong sell to the trade.
Including a large and sustained advertising campaign.
Now initially  er starting er starting May er  for suppliers to be  the adverts for from the beginning of the summer holidays and then looking forward to the Christmas trade.
Right well first of all the first thing we can probably do is broadsheet to the trade introducing product and incentives.
And it would be something along these lines.
This is the the front of the broadsheet which would go to the trade.
And followed by er the message inside.
Okay which says, er  intr introducing our new product range of spring water available from May the first ready for the summer trade.
And then it goes into the details of erm the various sizes which we have.
In three hundred and thirty C C bottles, er the still will be in gold top and the sparkling in silver.
And as for your customer a mark of quality mixer.
In Tetrapak for the machine vendors and those with who prefer this in er this environment friendly pack er package.
In litre bottles to cater for everyday use in the house, the restaurant, the pub, the club.
In two litre bottles for the heavier users of fresh spring water.
Trade incentives, one case free for every ten purchased in the in introductory period  which we've foreseen as four weeks.
And fifty pence per case rebate for orders during er introductory period as well.
We shall be delighted to receive your order by telephone or when our representative visits you.
There will be heavy T V, post and press advertising commencing in June.
There will also be the opportunity for your customers to save bottle tops for or pu or purchase heavily discounted quality goods.
Okay.
We at the at the initia erm the initial opening as well we've we would er er offer an invitation to the press and the media to attend our launch meeting er from from this we would hopefully get some advertising in as much as apply to  erm and er  hope t to get X amount of the market.
That generally works.
We shall have a four work sell-in to the trade via representatives  er they will have funds available to purchase shelf facings in supermarkets, cash and carries if necessary.
We re we require a hundred percent distribution in all of our direct customers by the end of week four.
All major outlets to be visited by week one.
Major outlets being cash and carries, erm supermarkets, wholesalers etcetera.
In the medium term advertising in trade magazines to cater for information of the launch getting to the indirect trade.
That's the people that we don't call on  erm with our representatives.
We would we would like to build distribution in the in in this market  with the use of specialized agency teams.
Er we're we're aware of the costs and the effort er and that effort may have to er be delayed.
Erm in the long term  that is er six weeks onwards er we would go into T V, press, posters and sampling in the store.
Right.
Er advertising as I said T V, poster sites and press  and point of sale.
And we will see  er our advertising al in all the media media  er going along these lines.
So that would be for example poster sites  and that for example would be er point of sale.
A show-card if you like.
And if you notice what we're trying to do is with our er illustration here er is to reflect the the gentility if you like of the Yorkshire hills and Yorkshire dales and we have a logo of our own which appears in the corner of the screen.
And can I also add that that follows on with the pictures if you like on the bottl on the label in the bottle.
We're also considering and will do our leaflet drops erm giving money money off value er  value perceived er gifts.
And what I mean by that is for example er a pan like that we can buy for a quid which happens to be a .
Er with a perceived value of something like ten or twelve pounds but er  that can be self financing with the profit on the bottles that the bottle tops that we ask for.
For example if we make say for example five pence on the bottle and we or for cap  er one of these for twenty bottle tops, that's a quid which is paid for.
So that's  self financing.
Erm in store we're thinking in terms of purchased shelf facings.
If they if the er store is not gonna us enough enough facings then we will be prepared to purchase them.
Just a note for you.
Er T V costs are thirty seconds of on all channels costs approximately two hundred and ten thousand pounds.
To make the film would cost you something like a hundred and twenty thousand pounds.
Er if you want to go local erm  say on towns it would cost you perhaps forty three thousand pounds for thirty seconds.
However spots can be purchased for seven seconds and a pro pro rata charge is made.
Er full page newspaper in nationa national dailies is averaging about erm twenty thousand.
Although the telegraph costs twenty seven thousand pounds for a full page and  twenty thousand.
As I said er trade incentive incentives fifty pence per  for every ten purchased introductory or er order only.
Erm advertising ex expenditure will be heavy and varied and will change as our three year er plan evolves.
Our needs of the cam campaign are perceived.
We er we intend to break into profit in year three when we should have recuperated our expenditure.
Right the ima the image we're seeing  is freshness, cleanliness and health.
Erm   have agreed that we can take over two of their sponsored events er which is golf and tennis and it would be something like erm   golf promotion.
Now you might  that will get us on T V and it it is also self financing as well in as much as you set up the promotion, the T V companies but it off you.
So it doesn't cost you anything in .
And both these events are in keeping with the image we're seeking and as I said self financing.
Pe the fees are paid by the T V companies to cover this event.
Our advertising budget  two and a half percent of the market the first year.
We're gonna make a loss of one one million one hundred and seventy seven thousand with an advertising spend of two and a half million.
Erm the second year six percent.
We will in actual fact make a profit in the second year  erm although that's gonna be against the fi first year loss.
And the third year eight perc eight and a half percent of the market we should in fact  of two million two er thirty hundred and thirty four erm thousand pounds.
Er note we're flexible in our advertising budgets against  make a profit in year three.
Erm I personally feel although some members of me team don't agree er with the with the heavy a advertising expenditure we've got, we can probably do better than two and a half the first year certainly erm and maybe ten percent of the market in the end of the at the end of the day.
Right.
Advertising where it goes.
These are preliminary  er first year er two by thirty second spots half a million quid but that's national.
Erm a thousand poster sites at say five hundred pounds per site  would cost half a million.
And national dailies five dailies  would cost you about four hundred thousand pounds.
leaves about one point million pounds one point one million pounds to cover intr introductory incentive leaflets, buying shelf space, added value goods, money off incentives, point of purchase.
But the budget will be continually scrutinized er and adjusted to er suit the situation that we're in at that stage.
Er thanks Tom that was really quite dynamic and breathtaking and I think you'll all agree.
Er now some more practical and down to earth aspects  er Michael  director of development will run through the critical path analysis for the new factory extension.
Ah yes I thought that would er take you by surprise I noticed the sharp intakes of breath there erm but even now we're thinking in terms of expansion.
Thank you very much Philip.
My brief  was to do a C P A for the factory extension.
Erm and also decide the dependence, draw up the network, decide the critical path and decide what action could be taken to reduce the overall project by three days.
On the C P A  on the C P A of the factory extension  what we've done  we have ordered the digger  which is taking a duration of seven days.
So the digger will arrive on site .
We will continue to from two three we will continue to dig the foundations in the mean time we hope the concrete the concrete will be arriving on site to complete those footings.
At the same time it is my belief that while we were do doing the footings we can also  the concrete to fall in line where we will erm put the main floor in.
Erm during the course of the footings and flooring taking place, bricks have been ordered to come in where the walls are being built together with the joinery.
You'll see a dotted line coming off on er ordering the bricks it comes in here er to er the roof structure.
Now at the same time as ordering the bricks I'm taking on myself to order the tiles for the roof at the same time.
Thank you Michael for that exciting view of the forthcoming plans for the expansion to cope with this new vibrant market.
Erm  now it's my spot er and it's a quality promise.
We at  Water undertake to supply each and every cherished customer with a product that is clear, cool and healthy to drink, free from contaminants and eminently potable.
It will be maintained within the requirements of W S D eighty oblique seven seven eight and all new MAFF directives.
MAFF being spelt M A double F capitals.
Erm  er by continuous process control so that we can say this is water.
Erm now for the moment we've all been waiting for  er what this means in terms of er profit loss and cash flow and Anne  will once again enlighten us 
I do realize  out of time this so erm I'd like to just g erm go through the profit loss for one year quite quickly.
Erm as you can see the sales in the first two are expected to be four point nine almost five million pounds.
Erm the cost of sales is two and a half million pounds which gives us a gross profit of almost two and a half million pounds.
You'll notice on the overhead cost the big cost is the advertising which is two and a half million pounds and that unfortunately takes us into a a net loss at the end of the year of one point almost two million pounds.
Erm I've now set out the budget details for the three years.
Erm  I've also erm put down the side of year one the actual percent of the cost for each of them.
As you can see once again the advertising is a problem in year one which takes up forty percent of our actual cost of the total product.
In year two this actually drops down to twelve point six percent and in year three down to nine five percent.
Erm  year one once again we said we'll make a loss of one point almost two million.
In year two we're expecting to make a profit of one point five million.
You'll also notice that we put a provision in there of half a million for expansion of packing cos we believe that we may need this  erm with the production of the o you for  the carry on.
Thanks Anne that sounds wonderful.
Erm so it's okay Mike to you to summarize er all of this for us.
Fine okay thanks Philip.
Well erm  in complete summary I'd just like to go through three points again.
A the product.
The product is a very pure natural water from an underground spring with with a clean taste, high in calcium and low in nitrates.
It has undergone two stringent two years of stringent tests and is produced in two forms a carbonated and a still version.
The competitive edge.
Water is committed to the development of effective competition and has been instrumental in many changes.
Competition in the British market for water today is a reality with some forty plus rivals complet competing for a share in this growth area.
We believe that the quality of our product together with doorstep deliveries, our unique selling proposition is highly valued by our customers.
These arrangements are part of a wide ranging package of service s standards drawn up under the campaign banner of a commitment to customers.
Which marks the latest development in the company's long standing programme of customer care.
We further believe that in carrying out these arrangements we enhance the company's reputation, its quality of product, flexibility and responsibility within the market place, together with its personal service and image.
Future development.
The company has always had a substantial research and development program and it will continue to develop s its businesses within the U K and take advantage of any appropriate profitable opportunities to extend operations.
Expansion by way of export to the E E C is envisaged within the next twelve months.
Market research has shown us that people are far more health conscious and far more sensible about what they drink.
If you don't want an alcoholic drink, mineral water is an acceptable alternative.
Young people especially just take it for granted and order it automatically.
So move over Perrier you've got a new Yorkshire rival.
At that point I just want to stand up again because I think I've put very little into this  altogether because I wasn't here.
I'd just like to thank the fellow colleagues of my team for the effort and I regard er a very worthwhile and creditable performance.
Thank you one and all.
Right okay now who's got some questions?
Ah right well who wants to fire first then?
Go on Mike you had your hand up first didn't you.
Right erm the thing that disturbs me actually is this advertising budget so could you  can you tell us erm what the timing of this advertising is in terms of Yeah can you turn that over please.
Range er of information that you're gonna put out to that person  so that he can bring in o other customers to your arms.
I mean you know a lot of people don't have the orange juices and the eggs and everything else that  do cos they  milk delivered day.
How are they going to be able to join  your network of  doorstep deliveries.
Well I mean the most of them will obviously go to the cash and er to the er supermarkets and pick it up.
But they're going to be cut out from the two litre bottle range er if they've got a bad back or  these sort of situations.
Oh yeah right well I mean we could leave that to our representatives if you like erm  to erm to cater for those those milkmen erm  in the same way as the  milkmen.
You know we'll always be and continually be looking for a er fresh outlets erm to sell our product.
That's a great  benefit of doing it sort of erm nationally.
The intention was that we should set out to count the big sales first.
We want the turnover we want the the input and and then er having succeeded hopefully by year three when we've er as we've maintained making a profit we will then look at some of the marginal sales as we would call them to er some of the smaller people.
That obviously entails er a a great deal more overhead in terms of distribution.
Most of the market seems concentrated in the er initially in the two litre area for er  to the centre of our sales would be in in that area.
And er over a period  diversify into er different markets.
Do you not see any problems with the clergy using the name ?
Oh we we've already spoken to the Archbishop 
Do you have to pay  any fee for using the name?
Yes we've er spoken to the council as well and we've er received all the authorities which are necessary from the York council and er everybody is happy on that.
Ah we we we know somebody up there.
When you  the title  you're talking about Pennine water  a link between the two.
Yes well the reason for that was the erm  the name is to do with the way we commercially market the product.
Er we're targeting three particular areas.
We're targeting the area around London, the area in Yorkshire obviously and in Scotland because the er socio ec and economic roots provide er the right kind of market for our product.
And er  is a very well known er place indeed and we feel that people throughout the country indeed throughout the world can identify with .
And it will also aid the tourist industry in York by providing people with a focus to using the material we have here they can identify with it and  it may increase the er the trade  er in York.
You say that you know your main one of your main targets is the London area.
Do you see any problems trying to push a Yorkshire product in the London area?
Well there are a lot of people from York shire in London.
And the marketing  shown that people who buy this product are mainly the young women in socio and ec economic groups A and B and er a lot of er women like to be like Yorkshire women 
That that that that kind of 
also like to point out that Highland Spring is is erm a national product.
The highland springs are seen as natural but to me the Pennines   a rather grimy image.
They've not got a fresh spring image.
Oh well that's you 
Er in addition to which er the the the problems that Perrier had erm er I've forgotten exactly how long it is ago now but probably er two or three years ago er when they had er contamination through
Have you got a slogan at all?
Pardon?
Have you got a slogan?
We don't particularly need one I don't think.
Spring water from the Pennines that's a good 
the T V adverts thirty seconds is a long time
Yeah right.
Ah yeah but I think you er misunderstood what we were saying.
Thirty seconds is to produce a film that's a long time  we did talk about seven second slots as well 
Yes.
which we can flash on .
So you'll be using
Oh yeah I mean we're only talking about a couple of  initially er large erm  thirty second spots if you like.
They're too expensive you know for the sort of profit we're going to to go into too much of that.
The the intention of the film is to sort of er create er the the the backdrop to this product.
In other words er pictures of er springs emerging from er Pennine moorland er backdrops etcetera etcetera they're just to give you the backdrop.
To which Tom says the the essential punch will come from the er seven second advert.
Mm.
Bearing in mind that there's something like forty companies chasing about eighteen percent of this market, do you honestly feel that your advertising revenue is going to go down as quickly as feel if you want to try and keep ahead of the the pack and keep up with the leaders.
Well  the there are only really three main competitors so  are are people in in the market .
And er we intend to er capitalize er on our  and indeed er makers of Highland Spring Water their market share is reducing and we intend to capture that portion.
aren't they.
We did also point out er  the advertising budget would be reviewed .
er if we go in front of the  of our objectives then we're on there's obviously more money to spend.
is quite high bearing in mind the fact  the national average .
How are you doing, are you  
You're gonna you're saying you've got a problem with the cost of the bottles  these are the blue ones?
no these are the large ones.
The large ones   
The two litre size because of course the two litre is not well it it's erm we just had problems with erm finding somebody who would give us a er  good quality bottle.
The the small bottles are glass though.
Are they reusable or recyclable.
Well actually most people have  most people want them for souvenirs.
Cos that's where that one came from.
say sort of environmentally friendly and 
Yes we we envisaged that that bottle it it it has a certain sort of  cache about it so we we we expected that that er a lot of sales for that eventually would go through the on trade and er obviously if it's on trade then er  the thing is automatically re-collectable and recyclable.
Well there is a problem with recycling blue glass because of the colour.
Well not recycling  bringing it back into the thing, washing it and and refilling.
It may not help the advertising  use blue but green.
Well there actually is a s spring water bottle  actually producing already so
We actually think that that blue bottle will stand out when there's no other
As long as it's not next to to er Domestos 
Can I just ask a couple of questions before we finalize before lunch.
First of all can I talk about the erm how you're going to execute your advertising campaign.
Because you're talking about a national launch er with a national campaign er developing one image.
Er with one T V commercial and yet you've said that your initial thrust will be erm in three areas.
First of all London, second Yorkshire and third Scotland.
How you attack those markets can be different in the sense that in er London the penetration of erm er mineral water into the target market is very high and therefore it's already an accepted practice.
Whereas in Yorkshire the penetration and usage is very low perhaps the lowest in the country erm where there is still very much a heritage of, Well what's wrong with what's in t' tap lad?
Erm and so the approach has to be quite different.
And Scotland where there is a very strong national heritage and how are you going to push Yorkshire water into an area where there is a high heritage of water?
Can you do that with one advertising campaign or do you plan ?
Well initially we we're we're going to we're going to go nationally but very quickly we're gonna see where erm our strengths and weaknesses are erm and we know already where the erm the large market is and once  we've had a couple of T V spots to make it known nationally erm in the end of course we're gonna have to erm probably concentrate on those areas which erm er which'll give us the best return.
not only which er erm one of the big strategies of ours is using  er and we think we can get into a considerable number of homes with leaflet drops etcetera erm er by using  that er arrow.
Okay.
Well one one of our key key er marketing er tools is the markets we're actually aiming for and I er agree with you  we are going to diversify and it is an on ongoing campaign but er our s the er targeting's based on the socioeconomic group er of the population and the differential er of purchasers is going to be fairly minimal because those will be very similar people throughout the entire country.
Erm so I take I understand your point we are aware of it and we think our campaign will take take er those factors into account.
And diversification will er occur somewhere .
Okay.
I think we all talked about flexibility and you know that's  what it's all about really .
What consumer research have you done to er enable you to charge a premium price for your water?
Is it of a higher quality and accepted by consumers?
Well the er water quality is e exceedingly high and
Technically you said that already but what about er sort of consumer appreciation?
Well the er consumer appreciation  outlined er again that's divided into two areas and it's based on the socioeconomic groups and the purchasing patterns of the members of the public.
Right.
And er there are two distinct markets.
One for bottled water and er the the the the large 
No I'm not I'm not interested in the socio groups what I'm saying is what research have you done to confirm that the 
Well we have done research 
actual taste of the water is right for your target market.
Well we have done research by sampling tests inside 
Right.
er supermarkets etcetera er from time to time.
Erm and those people who have been asked the specific question, Would you pay a premium price for this water as against that which you're drinking? said yes.
Fine thank you.
And the last question I want to raise with you is that erm how do you feel about your initial problem on pricing?
You're talking about er three thirty mil going out at a premium price, erm your one litre at an economy price and your two litre back at a premium price.
Do you think that variation in pricing strategy will be er contrary to what you're trying to do in terms of your image projection for the brand?
It could be.
It could be.
Right how do you er plan to address that issue?
In effect although although the water is the same product it's there is a slight difference in the marketing of each one of them.
Right.
The small bottle once again is is the attractiveness of the bottle and we've found that to be very attractive and people are were very willing to pay a premium price for something like that cos as Thomas said people are buying those bottles to keep them erm initially.
So we feel that we can actually get away with a premium price on that.
The biggest market is the one litre size.
That's a vast erm  that takes up a vast erm proportion of the market.
It's also the highest proportion of our oi erm production for these reasons and of course it has the greatest return pocket in that.
So we really need to keep that into a price competitive with other erm er competitors.
Erm the two litre size is we i the vast majority of the market there is going to be on the doorstep and we feel that we could get away with a premium price because of that.
But I understand your concerns that it may affect the erm .

We really are waiting for some key data on how  and so on which we shan't know until March so I think that is going to condition our er  next consideration  but  your comment on that.
Very very very briefly Chairman, erm first of all you can see in paragraph two point three and you see the matter that's being erm  the subject of discussion previously erm  there wasn't to be an issues report as such, but er Stragg itself the advisory group did feel that it would be useful that er  er a leaflet be prepared and distributed erm you I don't think Chairman would have seen it, but hot off the presses is being erm with us this morning er an an and only delivered this morning are some copies of th the leaflet that we have now erm prepared er you will have seen that in draft form Chairman and members of Strang will have seen that draft form so er both Stragg members and other members of the Committee if they would like to take a copy away with them, that there are a number here, but they will be er given wide distribution later on.
These copies are staple check  and you are the one which you've gone back for apply  erm I, I'll  with that one.
And there's some homework in it.
There is some, there is some homework.
Erm prin principally for, for those outside the County Council that is the erm all responses would be very welcome.
There er  erm other er  matter that er erm I er wanted to mention erm if only to get the word sustainability on to the tape that is being recorded on the  
seems that one of th the key areas that we are looking at and er will incorporate in the structure plan is sustainability.
That's been er er a matter which has been erm discussed er at some length by Stragg as has the topic of er house building and the  the problems of er capacity for er new house instruction and other development within the, the Council  but a number of erm matters er not least of which has been er the departure of two key members of staff during the period er there has er I'm afraid been a degree of slippage and the original programme that we have put to you and which you agreed which we said at the time was ambitious er is already er showing signs of stress and it looks now I'm afraid that it will not be er in the early part of the summer that the structure plan in draft form will be available and ready to be approved for consultation purposes, but towards the end of the summer and er er into the early autumn.
Er that is something which is er a matter of great regret, but because of circumstances er unfortunately is the case and something that we must er address.
We will do what we can to er speed things and to catch up.
Yes, Neil?
One very quick point, sorry erm  I don't want to sound as if I feel I can  but er I welcome your comment at the beginning the condition be  be left out on what's going on because I thought this was actually the key function of this committee and I mean I see these are being  decision has been taken.
Erm I see  so I'm not really     will make sure that erm  that we are kept in touch so that we are not so far down the track but they can't be reversed  committee as a whole 
Absolutely.
Absolutely I was aware that Graham  was very anxious to be involved in this process, er for example he wrote me a note and I think other members and it's because of those, of those notes that I was anxious that we should inform them of what we were up to and if you want to share any of the papers or agendas please ask.
Er really do value inputs 
Chairman I, yes I, I mean that I 
or attend 
I understand an and appreciate wh what you're saying and most grateful to you for that, I think wha what you're, Neil  is saying is is that with  we must make sure the time, that this main strategic planning he has to look at, this very important issue, allows sufficient time for mature consideration
Yes.
debate and, and possibly change.
I i it may not be so, but it may be so
Yes.
and, and I'm sure that you're aware of that  feeling amongst all members that you would reflect this in the amount of time available
Yes.
for that debate and discussion.
Very important.
It's particularly important because I, I think that these er strategic plans aren't being terribly well received in the D O E and they will only succeed if there is er solid agreement to present.
I think Berkshire had a very rough ride  and others too  and they're saying exactly the sorts of things that are being said in this county  and it may be the last strategic plan on the county too, so it's a very important document.
Right so we note this report.
Thank you.
Item eleven one er I have to say that if you want to discuss item eleven two, the Mid Sussex District Local Plan, I will have to er   I shall have to er  withdraw and ask er Cliff to chair the meeting.
If er if you don't mind.
Do, do members want to discuss the Mid Sussex Plan?
Erm i it's  a very small point it's a question more than anything else erm Chairman, rather than a debate, but th there are one or two obviously important issues there, particularly the highway side and I 
Well I'm happy to withdraw.
But, but should we deal with the  first 
No problem 
Why don't you take this item.
Right okay, well it  I don't know  
I'll go into  
all to do with that one first 
Right, right, right.
But I mustn't blot my copy book.
Right.
Shall I, shall I start on eleven ?
Please 
Chairman, if, if I may and it is just basically to look at the recommendation and wonder you know perhaps if we've got it the right way round er that's all, where we're saying er there are certain things still outstanding wh which we would need to re-relate before er issuing er general conformity notices I understand  b but we're almost taking that they're going to do that without any doubt, now I don't know maybe there are things not said in this report which are well understood, but  and members of  are quite happy to accept erm er s some more  more changes to, to the local plan so that it does conform with  with the structure plan, but I just wondered whether  round the wrong way.
Whether we should be saying  and saying  District Council be requested to amend the local plan as suggested in paragraph two four two nine five and then nu number two would be there adding a few words to  to the original number one.
On confirmation of  District Council's agreement a statement of general conformity and in business you don't sort of give your position away, erm 
I, I'm pleased to tell you that the Planning Officer agrees with you.
Oh, oh I  
I, I certainly certainly from the chair I would agree.
Chairman, may   I'm  sorry to, to, to question that erm 
I'm sorry 
Th there, there is a, there is a problem erm in that the invitation from Aida in this case to er issue a statement in general conformity erm confers on, on this committee the opportunity only to withhold that statement if there are elements of plan which significantly fall outside for one reason or other the, the terms of the structure plan and the points that have been mentioned in the er in paragraphs two point four to two point nine in, in  er  your officer's views er are not such that the er plan is er unable to be afforded that statement of general conformity.
The points in two point four to two point nine are nevertheless important and we would er  I would strongly recommend that you endorse the erm making of those points to Aida If they then don't take those points on board, you would have the opportunity when the plan is, is finally put on deposit of making a formal objection to the plan on the basis that we disagree with that particular wording, but I have here th th th the strong expectation that Aida will take on board those small points anyway and it is just a matter therefore o of making minor changes, but unfortunately the conformity issue is, is a, is a rather different one whether we are er in er er er as an authority in agreement with what Aida is saying in their plan.
Apologize for misleading.
Chairman and I, I still stick to wh what I said that I think that we ought to  to reverse and, and p put two to number one  erm er and with the addition of those words, because 
I, I, I take all the planning and what the officer is saying, but I mean don't you think it makes more sense from our point of view  than we realize.
Ch Chairman I, I, I, I would agree with Mr  that we might er successfully change the order, but we can't er and shouldn't make it a condition of issuing that statement of conformity that Aida have done those things.
They may not do them and we could still issue, we would still have to issue the statements of general conformity.
There would then be other means however for us to pursue our  our concerns that haven't  we know er are moving into a future speculative situation, but if they're not taken up we have other means of pursuing those, but they wouldn't affect the  the conformity issue.
It seems as if it's a legal question I hear from 
Well yes, yes in terms it sounds mos most confusing compared with a straightforward business world but  if, if, if  the campaign  are saying that it's got to be this way  for legal reasons they're not prepared to accept it.
That's our advice I'm sorry.
Ch Chairman, I, I, I certainly would er report to John  th that is the correct interpretation .
Perhaps we could minute Mr  's point, just to make him happy.
Well I, I mean he's being technical here as well Chairman.
I shall be getting a copy of this tape.
Right.
Chairman?
Mr .
Yes, sorry.
Sorry, just er to clarify  was happy about er reversing the orders of these, provided we did not amend what is currently present er item one.
Yes he's saying a com condition of er general conformity that the general conformity is apparently er met by this er what's being done and I think general conformity, I, I don't know I'm guessing, relates to the housing commitment of a broad strategic equivalent, is that the point?
Yes Chairman i it relates to the  the body of the policies in the structure plan and if Aida's plan generally conforms then we must er issue a statement of general conformity er however if there is a, a problem that we've had for example about the wording of the reference to the erm East Worthing access road, then although that it's quite proper for this committee to be concerned about that wording and ultimately possibly even to object to the plan on the basis of the wording, it doesn't affect the extent to which the plan conforms or doesn't conform with the structure plan overall.
Does that help?
Y y yes I mean to clear this whole matter up  Chairman w wo would it be fair if, if I moved perhaps tha that erm  erm little one should become little two and little two should probably become little one and 
leave it at that?
I mean would that satisfy   
That, that  that would be perfectly acceptable.
All logical orders.
Er Chairman I'm  perhaps I could also suggest that we change the word suggested erm  because that  i i it, perhaps you are looking for something slightly stronger erm er so it could just say in accordance with paragraphs two four to two nine or the points made in paragraph two point 
Mm.
Right.
I am now going into  and you're going to take the chair  for this .
Well I hope it won't be a   is that alright ?
No, it's alright.
Right turning to item eleven  two Mid Sussex District Local County.
That all agreed?
I mean  yes  er as I said earlier on it's just a question for  for  just a bit more  obviously in the readings report th there is  there is concern naturally  with the by-passes  in paragraph two five  I mean I haven't had a chance to sort of looking up yet, and I'd by grateful for County Executive's advice on that and I thought we as a County Council had agreed a line  erm for a by-pass through the West Sussex  portion at least.
Therefore i if we, if he done that then that paragraph would seem to be slightly  and the second point was really  to ask if there was any further update on  the progress in terms of negotiations in Surrey and East Sussex er in terms of this erm particular by-pass and I know that Mr  in particular has been concerned with negotiations and Mrs  also erm Mrs  is not here therefore as Mr  could advise me for us o of where we're at really,so that we fully understand  because obviously the  the line of the by-pass is very important so far as any further development is  is concerned.
So 
er in regard to er  th the quote there has been no agreement on the line, that refers to the fact that agreement has to be m erm come about with the actual erm East Sussex County Council and Surrey County Council and that er although a joint meeting of Planning and Highways what, some two years ago, took a view as to the line, that hasn't actually meant that there is agreement at this stage where the line can be implemented and I would have thought that's what that refers to.
I, I, I can answer that 
Well I, I don't know whether I should make a  or  
If I may erm  we, we, we, we did attend er er er a briefing  and myself and James , unfortunately Margaret  was unable to be present on that day, although I think she's had a separate briefing  or there is a separate briefing being proposed.
There is a partial line on the map which I think this Council agreed before my time  but that is not a line which could be implemented because it starts from nowhere and goes to nowhere  and we are still I believe in, in, in limbo so far as the  exact route which might be proposed either the northern or the southern end.
I didn't want to  tread on your toes Mr , but I, I gather that, that is the situation I think.
That that's just I would have said Chairman anyway I would have probably have taken  
I, I,I, if I may go on an and er  make some other comments on it i is that appropriate or should I  wait for that  are we still talking about the by-pass?
Erm  I mean I was just finding myself expressing the views that er  given the dramatic change in the composition  of the County Council since the election, I would have thought something as major as the East Grinstead by-pass would need to be considered by the new council anyway  and er I think it would be  perhaps er assuming too much er to believe that the present council would follow the line of the previous council that's only er a personal expression.
If I may come back Mr Chairman an and er express a view on behalf of Darcy .
She's very concerned and the present line partial though it be, represents a  a blight situation on that, on the, on potential er occupants of that line  and certainly erm  I find myself more in  in er agreement with Darcy's views than I do with the other two councillors of East Grinstead, that's not er not secret
No, no no 
by any manner of means, because they represent the  of the town.
I find myself rather like the old shell man having to look both ways at once, because part of my division is  is town and part of it is country and they have very different views about the by-pass  erm
Yes, could I just  you know 
Sure 
I mean because obviously this is inflation particularly with the new members who are not involved in  in all the  hurly-burly   those two, two three years ago, but er in fact as I recall it I think it was a Liberal Democrat  proposal that we should agree this particular line.
It was an East Grinstead er 
Mrs  
Er indeed.
And  and, and I mean all I'd say is I know it's an issue geared to hearts too and this will be explained, so I just  before 
And it's not  not unobserved.
I think you will recall Mr  my  my views on the East Grinstead by-pass  were not the same as those  
I, I, I'm bitterly disappointed  recollection.
Erm 
I wonder  wonder Chairman whether i i in order to, to focus on  on the erm  issue that arises as a result of this an and whilst Mr  is absolutely right to, to, to question the status of the by-pass and Mr   has  has given me the   the answer.
What it actually means erm is that er there is unlikely to be a by-pass for some time, but in effect that would be likely to be the case anyway, one because of the cost of the by-pass overall and secondly because of the erm position with regard to other aspects of the roads programme and the level of T S G that we are currently receiving er even if there was an agreed line as of today erm bearing in mind the th the other things that have happened in the roads programme, it still would be unlikely that the by-pass would be er programmed in such a way that it would allow housing or other development to take place in East Grinstead within either the structure plan period or the local plan period and hence the points that then er that the report moves on to erm come into play.
Could I then come to the body of the report, rather than the East Grinstead by-pass, which I, I, I  I agree is, is pertinent erm I was, I read this  a couple of times because I was a bit confused about the rather if I may say so convoluted argument that was in it erm I think I understand the argument that the erm is that the Mid Sussex District Council have asked for advice and the recommendation is that advice .
er on the other hand er  the arguments inside the er document seem to suggest that a  a certificate of, of conformo conformalities conformity erm could be issued er within the terms of the, the numbers specified because on the case of the housing the numbers are rather small and in the case of the er business floor space there, they're probably even less significant  erm and I wondered why that wasn't put in the recommendation.
I know the recommendation actually erm does answer the request for advice that was outlined in er two point one and maybe that's why the recommendation is couched as it is.
We could of, we, could we not have had a statement that er er er erm  a certificate of conformity could be issued  or will be issued?
Chairman it's er an excellent question an an and I, I, I'm hesitating in giving er an  an off the cuff answer, but the  first of all we weren't actually asked to issue a statement of conformity at this stage 
I take that point 
and it would be wrong for us to consider it in that form.
The real er difficulty is that we at this stage don't actually know what's going to be in the local plan and we believe and this is what erm Mid Sussex District Council are suggesting, is that it will be an amalgamation of the current separate local plans which cover their area, but there may well be some changes erm and until we see the thing as a whole we don't know what it will say, moreover erm there may be elements outside the East Grinstead housing and business allocation which erm from another point of view might lead to a withholding of the statement of conformity.
So in fact a recommendation was carefully constructed to allow y your committee the opportunity of, of questioning other elements of the plan at the time at which that is put to us.
I, I, I accept that completely.
Thank you.
Er Mr ?
Yeah, hmm?
Thank you Chairman.
Just to say that erm we're very keen to see that the Mid Sussex Council has come to the county and asked for guidance and I'm very pleased also with the response that is er proposed back to them.
There's tremendous concern within the area erm at the targets that have been set for house building and in particular for er industrial space erm I think office space is now coming back into more of an equilibrium situation, but erm  I'm very pleased to see that er with these proposals as they stand, we would have no difficulties in approving their, the plan.
Thank you.
Mr ?
I'm not commenting  still not commenting on local issues, but I mean  I quite see that  acceptable to Mid Sussex and I'm not  doubting the recommendation but erm  we've actually sixty three thousand  right sixty three thousand square metres  and the other  councils took the attitude that we would be nowhere near achieving structure plan  and  I find myself  absolutely clearly what happened in other  comebacks they were only going to produce three, two thirds or three quarters of your 
It is an important Chairman and a very good question and erm, but there isn't a  straightforward answer that would apply to every situation.
Th the reality is that elsewhere in West Sussex erm the business allocations are erm reasonably generous or indeed slightly over generous and er therefore er overall the concern i is very much reduced erm but it might also be just worth mentioning that erm  although  er there is clearly an opportunity for this committee, this planning authority, the strategic planning authority to, to question figures of this nature and to challenge local plans if they are significantly adrift erm that has to be done in the context of the  the local plan enquiry by er in the form of an objection almost and past experience has been that the inspectors and the Secretary of State have allowed a certain amount of leeway depending on the erm proportional er deviation from erm th the figures that were in the structure plan and depending on what is happening elsewhere and on the state of the economy and whilst  it would be  something which erm  it was possible to prepare a case for erm i it is o on, on the balance of erm er the  various things that are, that are taking place in West Sussex that the recommendation i is, is put to you that and it seems to be the reasonable course of action, particularly bearing in mind the downturn in, in er erm  the er business activity and the er amount of developments taking place.
It seems to be the reasonable approach to adopt, although it will vary from time to time and from place to place and it is a question of  of balancing a number of factors.
Well Mrs  wants to come in and then 
Chairman, er if I might I was going to refer again to the care carefully worded recommendation which doesn't actually mention the level of erm  it simply mentions erm er a modest extent of under provision because clearly it says elsewhere in the report at two ten that it's not yet known whether there will be opportunities elsewhere, so that's a particular shortfall in provision to be made up.
I would feel very happy that there was an under, under provision if I, if I refer to the agenda item twelve, where it says if I read it right that there is twenty three point six percent industrial floor space unoccupied at present and I would have thought it was crazy to start er erm coming up and building even more cos it will just put that figure up will it not?
This is a wrong 
Yeah but that's a quarter of that, that's a quarter unoccupied.
I mean I do actually  that we talk a lot about sustainability  floor space .
Anyway, I don't want to make a big issue about this, I just want to ask .
Can we approve recommendation then?
We do.
Thank you.
We'll go and retrieve the Chairman.
Oh are you gonna do it?
D do we now move on to item twelve the General Report?
I've received notice that Neil  wishes to er raise  er er a matter which concerns two parts of this report.
Neil?
Really I think  erm there are just two four and two six which I'm just interested in  and the whole question I find very difficult to erm   I mean it's really just a question as the these are mentioned as items  left hanging in the air.
, rustling of papers in background and whispering)
I think it's fair to say that  know more about it than I do, but there has been a High Court case recently which has, seems to have er torpedoed the er prospect of er  including affordable housing in new housing deals, so I'm informed.
You know more about it than I do Chairman.
Well I, I took the liberty of  the Lord Lieutenant's appointed me to something called the Sussex Rural Options Land Bank and I brought you a copy of the leaflet, having  notice of your question and I did ask  the officer who deals with this in the Sussex Rural Community Council if he could give me the latest score on  housing I thought that the news was bad from what he had said, but having said that, I mean every effort is being made to deal with the issues you raise in this council which is now  chaired by Peter .
Anyway erm I think we totally support the thrust of what you're asking about and I was asked to make a special appeal to County Council to see whether they could assist with this recently established Rural Options Land Bank, the purpose of which is rather extraordinary, but I mean it is defined landowners who have a philanthropic bent to provide the land to do something about the very problem you've raised.
So far there are twenty sites being investigated.
I mean one of the problems   and also perhaps losing benefit of  housing .
I mean I personally think that .
So it seems to be a sort of  a bit of an insoluble problem, but it  er I, I just .
I've just read the enquiry and the public dealing with these issues  and the D O E has rejected rentable housing as a solution to affordable housing.
I think I'm right in saying that.
I, I, I think Chairman that on the, the case to which you refer as, as I recollect it was very much on the specific wording of the er restriction which erm was found to fail, because it applied to a number of houses and not to a specific property and er clearly care will have to be given by the districts that happens in imposing conditions to make sure that it will erm appertain to each individual property within a development so that the occupancy condition can be  can be informed.
I think we can't do justice to the point you've raised in the time at our disposal, but it is a very important issue.
I have one suggestion,wh whether you would like to pursue the matter further, but I did ask Frederick  whether he could brief you more fully.
He is over in Lewes unfortunately, but he did offer so to do, er which I think would  you know put you in a more informed position to pursue the matter with this committee.
I shall certainly do what I can to advance the matter, but I hesitate to say what about the paper, because I don't think it is an easy thing to cover in a paper.
Perhaps we have to get it into the erm  strategy agenda again I mean we  we have had a go at it, but probably inadequately.
Chairman can I  er suggest to  these results of course over a period   and I'd like to see  
I'm pessimistic myself.
I, I think Chairman that as, as we come out of the recession an and  th that the overall erm level er quantity of development taking place increases, then we are almost bound to see perhaps more affordable housing erm in absolute terms, although I don't see any opportunity of there being a  a major hiccup in proportional terms, so I, I, like you, I think I remain er pessimistic er regarding the, the, the overview, although we might see er a turning up of the er of the graph having been bumping along the bottom for a little time a little while.
Yes, thank you Chairman.
Obviously it is a very involved complex subject, but the fact is the situation is changing day by day.
Er most of the houses that are provided  rent are provided by local authorities, but there again you've got a very serious change in situation  when the government are looking to privatize council houses.
I mean we can't go into the private market and expect them or asking them to provide  houses erm affordable houses as I say the question is what's an affordable house, who's got the money to buy the house I would presume, but obviously we know the situation is it's the lower rent of market, the lower income groups and the unemployed that are suffering very much  reasonable accommodation at a rent or at a price they can afford  and I reckon this is what  hopefully the government was after to say whether we'll put in our policy and hope that we can get things .
Unfortunately they say one thing, but they do exactly the opposite and whereas local authorities are in a position to  in the main to provide rental accommodation, the government are stopping them.
So I think you know it is a subject that we should, probably should go on to, to discuss it in more detail, but I'm really concerned because I think the policies  government  authorities were even accepting.
I'm not gonna ask for the problems of the  homeless people that we've got in this country .
I have to say there was one piece information I picked up yesterday asking and we're talking about the rural areas I think in this discussion, the rural viability, rather then er  urban.
I was told that the money that was threatened for housing associations which was an important element in structure, the government has in fact included it in the forthcoming budget, so that is encouraging, that aspect of it.
I think Chairman  housing association, because the demand was greater .
Well the only encouraging initiative that I can speak of for West Sussex is the establishment of the Rural Options Land Bank and er I've undertaken to try and get some county commitment to this and that means some land.
I can't see it happening, I mean I've already tried out one idea which hasn't run very fast  but if we were solidly behind that, that would be very important for this initiative, we as a county.
So I understand it will encourage others and there are some very wealthy landowners for whom this may not  be a great strain on their resources.
Erm sorry, thank you Chairman.
Basically erm I agree with what you say but that the County Council itself of course is  a landowner of erm some quite attractive erm areas of land that could be used for below cost housing, but the problem in the past has been that they always had to sell erm at the  market price.
Precisely.
Whereas  could be lifted if the County Council itself would become erm a benevolent donor, I'm sure that  problems of low cost housing throughout the county.
I'm not asking that it transfer its estate, I'm asking that it should make a contribution  because it will then show that we're committed to this very important initiative.
If you want to get a grasp of what is happening in West Sussex, there is a useful one-page summary in the Housing  and Environment the Housing Report which came to us last, at the last meeting.
It er has about a list of about thirty erm  affordable housing .
And I mentioned at the last meeting  I think  what has actually been said in the erm  meeting  I could repeat that, but I mean it confirms exactly what you're saying.
Available evidence confirms  sorry first of all  the increase in the provision of affordable dwellings identified by this monitoring survey er is not being maintained, so there is a national problem  South East regional problem  field and in our own er monitoring report  on  housing development and population change we say four point seven two  available evidence confirms the existence of a social housing problem in West Sussex and surveys studies suggest it is significant and that table on page forty  items, gives you the precise er application  position  erm  it is I think erm  just .
I think that deals with the General Report and now we move into part
No, no, no, no thirteen, thirteen 
approve that one Chairman.
Thank you.
Er
time yes.
Yeah, sorry Chairman I must 
We approved that haven't we?
No, no.
Fourteen two, erm the great problem is it's easier to get  if an afternoon meeting can finish at a reasonable time, then I can probably  but erm I think if you, if you're looking at the clock when  home in the evening for a number of reasons it might be  then I would  this and unless we can sort of put a restricted time on the agenda which is impossible, I can imagine coming down here at two o'clock for the meeting.
You see when committees are meeting at two o'clock usually have a much shorter agenda than this committee  discussion but to enable to this committee and to do its job properly, I would think we'd be looking where possible to be able to discuss items properly and to get  start at a reasonable time like we do .
Mr ?
it seems to me that often, especially with this committee er start at half ten we get to about half twelve and everyone starts shuffling and think of their lunch and often  not so much recently, but in, in, in, over the last five years there have been issues I think   it almost left you on  because it was so close to lunch, er and people didn't then want to have to break for an hour, hour and a half and then come back, whereas if you start at two fifteen erm  I think it's easier to go on till half four, five  seems to be to go to this psychological one o'clock barrier, seems to er upset people greatly  agitation and er their argument is th th that er that  in the afternoon
Do other members have a view on this?
Could I agree with that can I also suggest that if that happens  because erm also at some of these seminars are impossible  with meetings because  we can, we can try and concentrate on  on days where, where  ready would actually help the attendance because er
On the applications that's quite interesting because the reason the applications are moved to separate days was because we can work  we're having to  lunch and then make  again
We're, we're, we're using the application  for doing the Stragg meeting now, we're having amend on  normally  I think.
Well there doesn't seem to be 
Mr Chairman I, I would support the proposal that it's moved to the afternoon 
Afternoon 
on the basis of laziness.
I hear, I, I, I think there is a tendency with the County Council but as I discovered as Chairman of Highways  that members  want to take a greater interest and to have a greater say on the items on the agenda now planning is  is not a  controversial as, as say highway items, but nevertheless I think there will be times and there will be agendas which will require a great deal of discussion on the individual items  and I'm also a great believer  bearing in mind  comments  if it ain't broke, don't bend it.
Now it seems to me I accept difficulties f for, for some people, but on the whole it's working quite well and to shuffle it all round again I think would irritate a large number of members and we're irritated by the changes that you made earlier on  and I wouldn't wish to bring any  down on your  your head  for the  
so I'm in favour of leaving things as they are Chairman, er I think you, you, you've done enough, you've caused enough trouble already!
I it's, it's very hard when you, when you've, when you're grinding an axe to get the true mood of the meeting.
Could I just have a small poll, those who would like to er have S Q as they call it, status quo?
That's five
Six.
Six  and moving it to the afternoon  yes, it's er a nice question.
I think we shall just on the margin have to leave it as it is.
Thank you very much for that.
Now part two.
Can we approve that, is there any problem at all?
I must just quickly stress on looking at it very closely last night that only one was in West Sussex.
Erm Chairman if 
There's nothing we can do about that.
Sorry Chairman.
I if I might say erm after further reviews the County Treasurer has advised that erm he does not need to impose a limit erm i it's the last sentence in paragraph four.
Right, thank you.
That one  is East Sussex for your information .
So we accept that  Thank you very much and I'm grateful to you, I'm sorry I've gone  but it was that general question rightly raised by 

I shall raise that.
He says.
Big problem.
Look at me like that for Anita.
Nothing else that needs to  
Could I go back to three  environmental group, please David, er I've had er quite good news, Ford have agreed to er three diesel cars in their fleet for us to try.
Oh, right.
But they're going to be the smaller version, they're going to be Escorts and Fiestas, I think people need encouraging to use them, cos 
Well 
they'll extend their fleet if we do give a demand.
Alright, we don't, people don't specify do they what car they want,don don't you just provide it?
Usually they they they specify, people like our Roller.
Do they, oh?
Yes, and they tend to be larger cars.
Well it stops the top from specifying.
Yes.
Yes.
Get the diesels to tow it.
Right.
We've certainly had Escorts before, er
Oh yes, yes, quite frequently.
Anything else?
Alright.
Oh perhaps I should just report briefly that erm the erm changing over of erm erm some stage twos from my sub team to other sub teams became a necessary when Fiona returned very shortly afterwards.
So grateful thanks to those people for all offering.
Steve, one thing that there was mention to that and I've got a some  pass it on just for people to  
Erm 
or leave it  
a bit I think.
Er typing then, which seems to be generally satisfactory, although a bit of a hole in upon sub team one, it was a
I think that was probably just one er one car load where there was a reporter in it, which is unclear at the moment.
Come on John,.
Oh I see, it's just one file is it?
Mhm, yes.
For the twenty ninth, oh good.
Erm, right that gets us to the er performance analysis, and er graphs.
I was looking at er the first page the which brings together the sub team figures, erm, looks to me as though the completed work reflects the priority that we're giving to stage two work, and I think we continue to weeding , particularly, remain anxious to clear out of the system as soon as possible all old stage two files, and I propose to continue to revue progress on those and with each A D as I see them.
Erm, do you want to say anything about, anyone else want to say anything about page one?
Alright.
The second page which is Rob's sub team.
A fairly striking increase in June.
I notice.
Erm, which has certainly been noticeable, is likely to cause a few problems, because in August  are off, and so on.
However, there's nothing we can do about that.
It seems to have hit us more than anyone else for some reason.
Marlene doesn't think so, I am an .
Richard, do you want to say anything about yours?
Erm, I was going to mention, as Rob has done the increase in new complaints, which I think is somewhat welcome erm, we're still taking a long time from the averages over the last twelve months, I think that's just reflecting being out some days over the ones you've been talking about, er, we're down on actual stage one equipments in the month erm, we're not quite sure why that is, mm it's just the way things have panned out.
No, no member of stage two's gone out in the last month.
Forty nine.
Right.
Chris's were average stage one time seems to be creeping up.
That has something to do with erm Jill's doesn't it?
Well not really, because the the erm the that due'll be nineteen weeks doesn't include er the 
No, that they 
Leeds Post Office one, because they 
They're all December.
before hand.
That the significance about that Leeds thing is that there's a, I don't know how many complaints there are in that multiple altogether.
A hundred and fifty ?
A hundred and thirty five.
A hundred and thirty five, erm, all of which did take
Twenty eight weeks, I think it was.
Yes, so that until they drop out of the system erm, erm, a year from when that stage one decision was making, the teams over the sub teams overall stage one times are likely to be erm considerably higher than they will be in the month immediately after that er multiple has dropped out.
Er, but I I think actually that the nineteen weeks er in June re is largely caused of er some clearing out of cupboards on the part of Jill, prior to her maternity leave.
Er, Marlene, er do you want to say anything about your ?
The, I mean it's only anecdotal, but it feels to me as though the the increase they experienced in June has continued into er July, I know that's not what we're looking at but it it feels that way, erm
Thing was we had an awful lot of complaints last July, so it may not show an increase overall.
Also the the June figure may reflect a erm er a catching up on May.
I mean, May seems to have been a light month,
Yes.
although I guess it probably always is, and er
Did you check the seasonality with Chris?
Erm, that's come into the graph later on,
Mm.
But,basical erm June and July, er erm and August are always fairly busy.
Before we leave erm seventeen fours erm sheet, the there was a question I'd have, I think it's probably addressed to Graham rather than anything, nothing personal about this,er, the actual state of equivalent in the month, the third figure down in the last box
Yep.
erm, why is it so much higher than the similar figure, the same figure for, my sub team, when I had the same number of stage one decisions and one more stage two decision?
That same mistake, erm I
I did it in a hundred and twenty three, the actual stage one equivalent in the month if
It's ninety, that should be ninety one,
Torched in ninety one?
One seven six should be ninety one.
No it shouldn't should be a hundred and twenty three .
No it's  
Seventy sixty three .
Twelve times four, for  
Sorry, twelve times f 
Four twelves are forty forty eight, for nineteen seventeen five .
Forty eight into somethings..
I i is that a mistake which i did I get them  
Doesn't work anywhere else does it?
Is that reflected in the
I haven't checked anything.
cumulative figure then?
Erm, I doubt it, as that figure is, erm based upon the figures from the erm
Yeah.
from the main sheet.
It's, it's not a, it's, I don't add the sheets up together to get to the er top sheet .
No, right.
Okay, that's fine.
Yes.
Doesn't effect the the front figure.
No.
No.
Oh, well, sorry about that er Marlene.
Mm.
Yes, my apologies for raising it.
It's been nice knowing you.
Alright, if we look at the, look at the graphs on forecasting complaints, erm, said it's to my mind it's interesting, being about how the the choice of scale is going to affect one's perception here.
Mm.
Yes.
If you think about, it's very difficult for looking at graph one than er than er looking at the more settled line on graph two, which is actually the same thing if you abide by that  
Yes, it is, yes.
Yes that's right.
It is.
Er
You could do it even better if you want with a straight line, if it's stretch the scales to infinity.
Erm, so there's a there's a slight up turn erm in June by comparison with June last year.
Erm, but because last July was very heavy, er, you're expecting Graham that erm w we might well be showing a down turn again next month and that's what 
I think we 
the last graph 
That's what 
erm does is is project us on, erm,
Er erm July, er June is erm, according to Chris's seasonality figures, normally about erm twelve percent higher than the mean, erm so if they'll take the mean at about, at being about three hundred and fifty, you know we're looking at a figure of somewhere just over four hundred for July, as opposed to last July which was erm I think five er four hundred and ninety four complaints in the month, so it's very unlikely that that output figure will continue going up next month.
Yo your figures after Ju , July over to December in the third graph are all, to put it politely, guesses.
They are, they're guesses, they're using the current mean of three hundred and fifty one, erm, and then tilting that according to the seasonality er that's shown over the last five years.
Right.
That I think gets us to the erm paper which I put down this morning, erm based upon erm primarily based upon that last erm graph,an and Graham's best estimate of our likely out turn for this year, because they erm, in fact you're, erm you're reckoning that the erm, the number of complaints we receive by the thirty first of March next year, it'll be four two fo four two, is your best seasonally adjusted guess.
And, er erm, based on three months and that's been a g could be wildly out, but at the moment it seems to be.
Mhm.
Which would be slightly down on er the number that we got in last year, erm, the next factor, erm, is not as yet a fact but is almost a certainty, that, er, all, we will not succeed on the present basis in persuading D O E that we should have any increase in t to reflect er er an increase in work, and next year we're anticipating getting in effect a stand still budget.
Erm, although I think we will say that that would be dangerous thing to do and that we should continue to work upon the er the assumption that there erm er overall as a n , a nine percent increase, but, that seems highly unlikely that will succeed, erm What I've then done is take account of the various staffing changes that there have been during the year, both short term and long term, erm, and you'll see that produces a figure actually available to us this year of twenty seven thousand five hundred and eighty eight investigative hours, erm which is slightly less than we had last year, er but erm almost not significantly so, erm and it seemed to me therefore that if we weren't trying to reduce times, er, if we were saying that we would turn in times at the end of this year which were the same as the term times we turned in at the end of last year we could probably achieve that without any further recruitment.
But of course we are trying to er, to reduce times.
Erm, now I can produce some variants on the next few figures, they, this is the one in the third paragraph which says that two thousand eight hundred, er took two eight nine one two, er, hours would be needed this year, that is working on the commissions erm current estimate of six percent of complaints going to stage two, erm, the reality in York is that seven point five percent are going to stage two, and if one took account of that reality, and I'm bound to say that in in estimating terms we don't, but if one did take in reality that would push that figure for this year up to thirty thousand four hundred and forty nine.
Erm, now bearing in mind that half the year has gone, or will have gone by the time anybody arrived here, erm it seemed to me that where I, my analysis of that situation was that if we were going to achieve our target times, erm, then the theory would seem to be that we ought to make, er, two appointments now, I E two appointments for half the year will be equivalent to one appointment for the year, and that will produce the number of investigative hours which roughly that the  formula says we need to knock off the required number of complaints in the required number of times.
But then you come to the problem, erm, because for ninety four five, erm, the  formula suggests that we would need less staff, that might seem a bit odd but the, the reason is that if you do indeed bring your target times down, then the amount of work which your passing over into the next year is er considerably less, erm than the amount of work which you passed over into this year,
Mm.
the  formula assumes that at any er as as of the first of April, half the work has been done on all erm files then outstanding, we've gone into this before, where er we think that that's er er a correct statistical way of erm dealing with things, if therefore you cut the number of er files which are going in, then erm, er I take it if you're cutting the number of stage two files which are being passed over, and that's the area where you're most fighting at er at time we hope, and it has a very, very considerable impact on workload for next year.
And so you'll see that working on the commissions six percent estimate, er we only need, according to this, erm just under twenty five thousand hours.
If you work on a seven point five figure, then you get up to twenty seven thousand four hundred and twenty seven hours, erm, before next year, erm,That would leave us with a difficulty I think, because if I were, if we went ahead with the idea of recruiting two people now er we would need to get rid of four of them by, oh four people all together, erm, by er the next financial year, which clearly is not terribly sensible.
But where I am is in something of a dilemma, because if we don't recruit anybody now it seems to me unlikely that we will actually manage to reduce our times, that would in tern would mean we'd actually want  more staff next year  erm, so I have set out a series of options.
Tails.
I've got a flat sided coin.
One does need to, going round drunning up drumming up customers, don't forget that.
you're knocking on walls.
Well the problem about, er two two does include , two does include going around drumming up customers, but the difficulty with that is it seems to me that that you'll need to drum up the customers in year one and only get the money 
Mhm, exactly.
in year two, because the er, erm, so where I am 
Yes, but you're a two though, I thought this to erm, sort of even up the the work between the three teams
Your  
rather than increasing the overall volume of .
Er, that's five, really, I think, well two or five.
Em, I mean that's good at way I am I think, that what we ought to do is to seek to erm, suggest to the Commission that York should take more of the Commission's total workload, I E to erm take some work from Coventry, and possibly also do a compensating transfer between London and Coventry.
Yes, if one bears in mind that London's situation still seems to be relatively difficult, doesn't it?
Erm, it would seem sensible if we look across the whole commission to try and even things out.
Yes but it's the Midlands team that 
But I think that if you 
has the greater workload at the moment.
Yes.
Very incoming.
I mean I, I, wasn't excluding working with them 
but if
Yes.
speed of through cut and er
Yes.
in other problems.
. The other ideal, which I haven't got round to doing would be to try and appoint somebody on a short term basis.
Erm, clearly we've got enough op , it would seem that if we could recruit somebody for the rest of this year, and er which would help us get our times down, if in if in fact we were able to recruit somebody who was instantly productive, which is not all that likely.
Do we know what the erm the wastage rates have been over the last few years?
Small.
Very little ever occurs .
less than one a year after.
I I that's a problem that in terms of could see whether our natural wastage in er would would cope with it.
Actually
We're a long way off retiring yet, Marlene.
Until, until, this last year.
where er I mean, we have had two resignations, er
Yes.
this last year, which
What you said a moment ago makes me wonder er about some of these calculations, because it, I take it assumes erm instant productivity,
Yes.
Yes.
and y you can't calculate things any other way, I suppose, but in fact er n ne new appointees will not be instantly productive, and therefore will 
They tend to be.
not in the vast measure reduce particular stage two workloads or times, erm
I think they're more productive than we sometimes give give credit for
We'll they, you get an early burst.
You particularly get a burst and then you get a then you get 
That's right.
a slow down or particularly.
That's
But, but it's still very useful.
Well you get them up to stage one fairly quickly, it's the stage two isn't it.
Because of the erm because of the erm of the total times involved, inevitably the stage two's are going to be, it's it's going to be in the second year that you're going to see reasonable output from them,not in first year.
What's the reality of, supposing we took two on, and supposing the number of complaints steadied, or even fell, and the target times came way down, we're meeting everything.
What are we really talking about when saying we would have to reduce the numbers of staff?
Are we really talking about redundancies?
Because if we are that clearly 
But 
conditions a great deal of what we do .
I think you're only talking about redundancies if we can't erm take some short term work from elsewhere, er as opposed to, I mean, I'm suggesting at the moment we take stock a longer time 
Yeah.
transition, erm clearly, er it would be a nonsense if we were making people redundant here ing if er either London or Coventry were struggling to cope with their
Quite.
er present work, and so I mean, you, you, could say we'll take it, er two or three hundred complaints from London, and buy time I suppose, erm to see if if if er work up here had picked up or natural wastage went or what ever, erm, if it didn't go up then, I mean in the long term, erm one couldn't envisage keeping on with more staff than what's thought to be a fairly generously assessed formula anyway, says we need.
Mm.
I mean the the formula, er, is not likely to be underestimating the number of staff we're needing, if anything it overestimates it, we think.
Right.
There's about five unpredictable variables in all of this, which is essentially
The immediate problem is we're going to be three members of staff down fairly shortly.
Well
For 
You're not, well by comparison with 
Two of, two of them departed for a period of six months.
Yes exactly, for at least six months.
By comparison with last year, you will be ov overall this year by comparison with last year, er you'll be about point six of a member of staff down.
And how many T Q facilitators are we likely to have?
Two.
And that's a day a week, as far as I remember.
Mm.
Yes.
So that's that's quite a lot, if it's an investigator, which of course it may not be.
Well almost certainly it will be, I think.
Well
There also of course the hours that 
it's the equivalent, it's the equivalent of two fifths of an investigator.
Yeah.
Erm
But that is only a relatively short term thing again, and that period will consist 
No, that's 
Three years.
the long term.
Three years?
Three years?
Yes, I suppose so.
A lot can change in three years.
Yes that's true, that's true.
And will, I've no doubt.
I don't think anyone will go and gamble though on a lot changing in six months, which is the immediate problem, and you co 
Mm.
Quite.
you would take it, not want to take somebody on if we're actually going to make any body redundant next year.
No, absolutely not.
Other, unless anybody that you have seen and wo take your fancy is available on a short term, fixed term contract.
I think only those who are unemployed are likely to be attracted by that, and I'm not sure how many we've got.
Wasn't there some talk about Tricia  wanting to come back to work?
I, I, something floated in front of my eyes that she was thinking of applying on part time for the complaint examiner, but she didn't.
I mean that is one area as the the complaint examiner matter where we've got, erm at the moment, erm the first corpus twenty eight percent going out in twenty six five, erm, which takes the food up, er a lot of those know will be going, I imagine, be going through investigators rather than 
Well  they will be going through P as if everything goes 
Well, yes, yes.
Okay.
goes to plan.
Erm
And the the er formulas actually actually er reckon that we need erm three point seven complaint examiners at the moment.
I think that shows something wrong with the formula.
Well, except that work on the submission of twenty five percent going through the complaint examiner.
Mm.
Well certainly, you know, I think there there is work looking at the files that go through me, there is work for a second complaint examiner, because a lot of the files from investigators are actually fairly straightforward now
Yeah.
mm, I know Sarah's not dealing with them, so you know I'm sure that there would be enough work for a complaint examiner, but whether that would then mean investigators were light is is really  
Well there is there is an argument that says if P As do the twenty six five work, or the bulk of it, that Sarah might be a one team complaint examiner.
Mm.
One
For a sub team.
Sorry, for a sub team complaint examiner.
Right.
I mean she is capable of getting through some fairly extraordinary amounts of work.
She does get through quite a lot that's true.
Yeah, I
There's a problem also 
I foresee problems with with that, there's no, there's a fair amount of travel involved, isn't there?
Mm.
And,
Yes.
you know, if she's covering a whole area.
I suspect the amount of travel might be capable of being reduced.
Well it might be, but I mean if we carry on on our present system then I would have thought there was too much travel for one person to be covering the whole of the area on the way we're presently using Sarah, cos she does 
Cer 
go and visit more often .
Certainly on the basis of the way we presently use her, I'm I'm not what wo 
Erm, er, erm, people could extend her times if she did it like she used to do before, because what she used to do is to say she would have a a day in Manchester in a months time
Mm.
or write you down as  time scale, you'd presumably talking about planning up to six weeks perhaps before she trots around.
Never the less, I mean, there is a sheer volume there.
Yes.
Yes.
However that's a, I mean tha I I I think her, she's always turned in twice the level that the formula assumes, or at least twice 
Mm.
That's right.
the level that the formula assumes a complaints examiner will
That would still give us to complaint examiners, because the formula is nearly four.
What we certainly want to get away from is the present situation where two sub teams don't have a complaint examiner.
That's right.
Yes.
That's right.
It is an imbalanced situation at the moment, it does mean that some investigators are doing types of work which
They shouldn't really be doing.
They ought not to be doing, literally.
Mm.
And for which we are paying too much.
Yes.
Mm.
Because ultimately what we're talking about is the cost .
I was going to say Pat's Pat's view is that, is that, Pat's view 
Isn't it?
Yes.
Pat's view that there is enough work to er have another complaint examiner really means instead of exec investigators.
Yes.
Rather than as well as.
Mm.
Well it does really, I mean if we, it's a question of whether the budget will stand the staff, isn't it, it's not whether we, er I mean in terms of of redundancies it's whether we cou , if we appointed people we could afford to keep them on, whether or not there was work, I mean we could have create work in some senses.
If the D O E won't give us any more money, which they won't do.
So you might have a stand 
Well 
still budget, now you would have some decrease in costs because there would be less phone calls, there would be less paper, less trouble.
Yes, well when I say stand still budget I mean a stand still on the basis of of saying that there will be no increase in incoming work.
Erm,
Yeah.
I think translating into financial terms that actually means less money, because
Yes.
because they will look at the  formula, won't they?
Well exactly, but I mean 
He probably sold it to them.
e essentially, I mean the problem is whether the money would stand the the staffing.
And next year it won't.
Well
On, on, the
We are assuming it won't.
Yes.
Cos it does depend, I mean if complaints,
first of all 
if complaints fly up obviously that's out the window, but
Well we still won't have the money .
we don't think that'll happen.
Yes, that's the problem.
Because this is the problem, budgets are being prepared for August .
If, if, if, if, if 
Right.
if we lose out the argument that we should put in for some increase next year, and and we think it's going to be very difficult to sustain an argument,
Mm.
then even if we get the increase in work we will not have the staff available to cope with it,
No.
unless we can divert money from other sources, but that's erm, well I mean that's the reality behind fifteen years of fairly steady growth, and I mean looking at at plateauing out, I think.
So what would be the worst possible picture we could be faced with next year?
Erm, we would have enough money to keep the present establishment going?
No.
No.
Not even enough to do that.
That's the problem with it.
The worst, the worst possible scenario, would be a need to reduce I think two investigative, if we didn't make any appointments now, a need to reduce er by up to two investigators, should be also including one  next year.
Mm.
But, I mean we're a long way from that, and I don't want people to think that I'm from saying er redundancies are imminent, er
No.
But on the other hand appointing people in that light looks a bit odd.
When do we know 
Other than, other than on erm a one year, fixed term contract.
That, that would be feasible.
How, how do we pay for that though?
For what?
In the worst case picture, how would we pay for that?
The one year fixed term contract would go six months into the next financial year 
That's right.
Mm.
wouldn't it anyway, so it would be taking a bite out of that reduced cherry.
Yes.
But I'd be prepared to risk that
Right.
if, if all I was talking about was twenty thousand pounds out of next year, I E six months, erm an investigator, a member of investigative staff, very roughly, costs us forty thousand a year in salary and office costs.
Erm
I mean a fixed term contract for a year for a new in , for an investigator, first of all we've got to find someone who would do it, secondly if that person wasn't frankly al already an investigator the investment in that person.
Oh, were were only talking about complaints examiner I think  
Or complaint examiner, but even then the investment in that person if they come at the end of the year go, I I would say, what a waste.
Yes, but you 
Clear 
you've got the option then if, that if the work did increase and they were satisfactory 
They'd fit in.
you could offer them a permanent place .
It could be in your contract.
Yes, that's right.
What you wouldn't have are redundancy costs, because you make people redundant and it also costs money, doesn't it?
Erm, depends how long they've 
Well 
been here, but
Yes, but I mean there would be 
Quite a lot.
I mean if we're talking about existing staff, then it may not be enormous but there is an in there is a cost involved with it,
But there, but 
financial as well as emotional and psychological  
Well that assumes the person might want to stay anyway, but
Well yes, but 
So it's a lot of risks and ifs in that isn't there ?
But they would, we had Olar who was very good and who very rapidly was was earning his keep, and he didn't even stay here, so, you know, if you make the right appointment, it's always dodgy that, you know.
Teresa must have been productive fairly 
Yes.
quickly as well in her role.
I think you're probably looking at three hundred complaints, something like that,
Mm.
in the first year
Why?
but a lot of those were tiddlers, that that that maybe it maybe it's better to use experienced investigators, and and because they can do that work so much more quickly anyway, I I don't know, I feel a bit uncomfortable with this one year contract.
Mm.
Unless it was somebody we have already used, and that really boils down to one person in York, and she's shown no signs of applying, so.
The last I heard Trish was going to become a teacher, I mean I I we are supposed to be trying to think about whether we can have a sh a panel that we of people that we can call on for the short term crisis appointments or whatever, but
I thought historically that didn't work very well.
Well the add hoc panel of investigators didn't work terribly well, but the they the idea of, if there are a pool of ex employees in erm and in the main we're tending to think about er you you're talking about people who've left to have families I suspect, erm, if if there is a pool of them that you can pull in, maybe that would work slightly better.
Yeah.
Provided they've not been out of the job all that long, I think, cos things change, don't they?
Yes, I mean we're not in the position to do what some of the, certainly I know some of the banks do, which is to guarantee a job after five years, let people have five years, you know, the maternity leave plus a guaranteed job at the end of another four when the kids start school, on the proviso that you can call them in if you need them within that period, for a bit of extra help.
To maintain their involvement with the job
Mm.
but I mean that probably wouldn't appeal to the people we have presently seeking maternity leave.
I imagine they would both want to come back anyway.
This is an emergency.
Sorry, don't you mean the two of them about to go.
Yes, well they're the only two we could be thinking about .
I mean they, they both firmly saying they're coming back on a full time basis,
Yes exactly.
That's right.
er for by the end of this calendar year.
Yes.
So were, they've already, we've already got those in as committed people next year.
The other fact, I mean there's a lot of uncertain factors, the other one is that as far as I'm aware we actually have quite a large number of people, by comparison with the norm', actively applying for other jobs at the moment.
Only four to my knowledge, I think.
I know five.
You think five?
Oh yes, I think five.
Erm
Is that er er er
Yes but I mean
I mean these aren't the norm', I don't know what the norm is and this is the trouble.
I
I'm certainly aware tha 
It's more than we've had in recent years, judging by the general
We've had a hell of a lot more people, now than we had.
Ah.
Mm, right.
It's proportional isn't it?
How
I er er
I mean there's no certainty in in that
No if people apply 
any of them will actually
people apply for jobs 
get something, yes .
Yes,
fairly regularly, I think,
Yes.
er some people.
In two cases it's very much a specific one off application,
Mm.
it isn't an indication that they're going to be applying for any other jobs that come up .
That's true.
It's also one where the chance of success must be fairly high.
Fairly high, yes.
Mm.
Yes, well
Well,
I don't know.
I doubt it actually, I think they, it ought to be but I don't think erm the people appointing are likely to look outside the immediate environs, and
Erm, it would be unsafe, I think, to work on an assumption that what we're going to er one post becoming available through natural wastage per year, and even that erm, highish I think.
Well, where I currently am is is saying that we should seek to revue the Commission's overall boundaries with a view to us taking on some extra work, and that meanwhile we should suspend further recruitment.
Full stop?
Yes.
No, no complaints examiner, no investigator?
Yes.
Hemmed in really, and look at the figures for July and August.
Well yes, I mean clearly they mean keep Lyn 
That's what you're saying.
under review and er
You're saying suspending her, not cancelling.
But is the thing is budget led at this stage, I mean isn't that, are we really, isn't the 
Well 
isn't the actual setting of the budget the key rather than, I mean if complaints shoot up, but our budget is static then we just got to cope.
Yeah.
But I mean that would apply if we appointed.
Yes.
Mm.
Yes it would.
Whether we appoint or not.
We when do we know when what what we're going to get next year from D O E.
Any time between October and February.
Great.
Requires real , that's the reality, I mean.
Indications start coming in.
I mean the budget presented will no doubt include an increase, we will put in a budget higher than this year's, I imagine, simply inflation and on costs, we'll will mean an increase over this year's budget, won't they?
Well erm
Erm, erm,that that's certain, and n a bit more at the end of the month,
Right.
there may be an expectation that we should, we should be absorbing increase in and getting roughly the same amount of money, but.
Just like that .
I mean I take it that nobody wants to recruit un until unless they're certain they can keep,
No, absolutely not.
the er the existing staff next year.
Mm.
That's right.
That, that's an ea an easy question to answer.
That's right.
The the question mark I've got is tha is that I I certainly accept that, it's the it's the question of the work being done at the appropriate level and the erm, the the fact that two sub teams are working without a complaint examiner, and, but I
I was going to say that, I mean if we do do that why don't we move to a position when, I know it's not finalized yet, the P As do the twenty six fives, and we try and adapt Sarah to do the whole s the whole of the four sub teams,ma maybe the threshold has to come down a bit, but but at least we've got some sort of parity of working throughout
Yes.
throughout the organization.
Mm, yes.
I think that may be something we have to look at if er if we're not in a position to recruit another complaints examiner .
I don't see why it shouldn't work.
I mean
Mm.
I think we're taking twenty six fives out.
We have
Well, most of them.
Mm well
Not necessarily all of the them, but most of them, that would leave the straight jurisdictionals and the clear no hopers, maybe the investigators would be getting a few of the ones that otherwise ideally they shouldn't but
Yes, I can en envisage that somewhere, perhaps a visitor's a first step towards clarifying what may be a runner would be taken by Sarah at the moment, but er, which we would put an investigator straight from future, for example.
How many complaints would a, would we be talking about then?
I, I, I'm anxious to avoid a situation of double handling of complaints if we can.
No I wasn't, I wasn't meaning that.
No, well except that it would, it would happen to some extent, I mean the key is whether you, whether or not when a complaint comes in whether you can assess that it's likely to go to
Mm.
to a stage two report, isn't it?
Or a stage two investigation
Mm.
if you can do that, then er only the other on , er all of the other ones can go to Sarah.
Our past record on this isn't all that successful, but then again
No it isn't, because I think if you, what you can do very very easily is assess those that are a likely on jurisdictional grounds to be rejected.
That are 
That's, that's 
likely to be rejected?
Likely to be rejected .
Mm.
Yes.
That's a 
Oh yes.
fairly easy.
Yes, that's quite easy.
You can also check er, and this this is a tiny percentage, those that are likely to go to a report.
The trouble is, in the middle you've got a great gulf of lack of information, and predicting in those 
That's right, that's right.
I mean you get, straight, no I object to this planning extension, looks fine, and then you start enquiring and all sorts of nasty things appear
Mm.
so I think we're inerent , inherently, er, unlikely to be able to predict that very well, but certainly if we can get the jurisdictional outs, and the clear no injustices and those to Sarah, then I think we should do that across the four teams, what we've got at the moment is quite distorting as well, in other ways, look at my 
Yes, that's right.
performance and my sub team, of course they can clear more complaints than you're sub teams, they're getting the dross in.
Well they shouldn't do cos cos Richard's got Sarah.
Yes that's right.
Well, Marlene then, sorry.
Well you've got 
are you still recording that 
Yes.
you on, oh that's still that's the one two, isn't it ?
There should be an evening out,
Yes, yes 
I mean 
it should work itself out.
Yeah, sorry, I'm thinking of er
Mm.
You're looking at individuals  
Yeah, I was forgetting that that was that was calculated on the two.
Yes, you're comparative performances as investigators will, well even that shouldn't differ all that much because those that have got Sarah available to them those are the teams who ought to be capable of concentrating more on their stage two work, shouldn't they?
Mm.
But the reality is of course that those, that my investigators and Chris's will be doing work that strictly speaking they shouldn't be, and I think that's
Well certainly they, that that, work is being done more expensively there
Yeah.
than need be the case.
Yeah.
Do 
Well 
we normally have many complaints from the job ?
we, we, we, we, we've, we've, we've got one decision I think which we are making, which is that we shouldn't at the moment, make any recruitment until we've got confirmation that we can guarantee employment next year,se , secondly I think we're saying that the first appointment that we do want to make is of a complaint examiner, and that if further investigators leave us, then we wouldn't be seeking to replace them as investigators, we'd be seeking to replace with the complaint examiner, that, that, that,
What, to go to three complaint examiners?
Oh no.
Sorry?
I'm saying the next appointment to be made is all by, a complaint examiner, what I shouldn't have thought we wanted to do at the moment more than one.
Right.
Mm.
Mm.
Erm
And if a if
although I mean there may be a er an argument in terms of lowest costing for reviewing generally how many investigators we do need, and
Yes?
and that's a longer term thing.
We're doing in, in, in the short term.
We'll be saying is that the first appointment of investigative staff to be made is of a complaint examiner.
Mm.
Sorry, I thought you were going onto say and the next one would also be.
Well, I I I'm not going to be  in anything.
No, I'm the first, I wouldn't want to go that far ahead either .
I think what you're saying that if anybody else leaves, then we might be in a position to make that appointment,
Mm.
maybe.
W if anybody else leaves you'd be in a position to make the complaint examiner appointment, you're saying.
Well that, we might be, we'd need 
Yes.
to look at it again wouldn't we, but erm 
Okay.
we'd need to look at it again, wouldn't we?
But erm 
Okay.
we'd be more likely to be able to make it.
Right.
Can we just take check then there how that leaves us with our recurrent recruitment program.
You have produced, have you, three er potentially appointable complaint examiners.
Two.
Two.
And a reserve, with
So three?
were there some doubts.
Yes.
Two definitely appointable, one yes, but with reservations.
Mhm.
Erm, and they've been told that we might not be making any appointment at all?
No, no.
What they were told was that erm a number of, a a short, short list would be made up, erm, with the possibility of them having a second interview, and they would be told one way or another whether or not they were getting a second interview, because we weren't in a position to say whether we were or were not appointing.
Mm.
Right.
So they will be expecting to hear either they've got a second interview or they haven't.
Well.
The, the minute, the note last time said a pool of cand , they, they will be told that a pool of possible candidat candidates will be contacted to attend for final interview once it's decided to go ahead with the new appointment, so you could the thr the the three, or whatever it is that you are not putting forward, that their, that our interest in them has ceased
Mhm.
erm, but are we committed to seeing the other three immediately or are we
Mm.
well the where did we we 
No we're not committed.
say to them erm we've not, we've decided at the moment, or we've not as yet decided to go ahead with the appointment, but when we do
Mm.
we will contact you.
That, that's what We could say that .
We could, we could say that, yes.
Right.
Well that would deal with the complaint examiners so
That's
the investigators, we're at what?
They've got a long list, and I assume that the non long listed candidates have been told?
Yes, they will have done .
Yes.
Tha , that's out.
The long list have been told that erm, erm, notices were being made at and I think that's right, isn't it?
I'm un , I don't know, actually, I'm not in contact with whose 
I'm not entirely clear what was said, but erm, they were certainly given no commitment to an an interview
Yes, they've been told that there's been a delay in the recruitment process, and that they will be contacted further, I think is what Marg 
I think in due course.
Margaret said,
Mm.
yes.
Good.
And their are seven of them in in the
Six and one.
Well, do we think it's worth at all, it's worth while at all going compared with them.
No, I would have thought not, given that were looking at 
We're certainly not in a position to do so at the moment.
we're looking at the most likely scenario being appointing nobody, and if we do appoint somebody a complaint examiner, it seems,
Mm.
seems frankly a waste of time interviewing them.
Presumably we would only be in a position to be considering an investigator if both, we had a erm a greater number of complaints from around the Commission coming into York, and i and further members of staff were to leave.
Yes, well I 
It would have to be a fair, fair accumulation of those two factors .
What, I had in mind is to get us to a point where if we decided that we do want to recruit somebody we can do that within er er a much shorter time scale than than our 
Yes.
pattern.
Mm.
Er, in other words if we decided erm come the end of this month that yes we're going to take in one or more extra counties from Leicestershire, we would be in a position immediately to erm convene the er rec the appointing panel for a complaint examiner, wouldn't we?
Yeah.
Er, now if we 
We could 
decided that we wanted a complaint examiner and an investigator, which I admit is unlikely, er we're much further along the, a much longer lead time there.
Mm.
Well, three or four weeks, I suppose, isn't it?
Yes, we could, if you wish actually cut back the complaint examiner time further because there is a clear, very clear, front runner, who Chris and I both believe is appointable, so if it was a question of getting somebody in more quickly, there is the option of not having the second interview, as long as you're prepared to, you know, to forego that, to get somebody in quickly, but that, I mean that decision can be made at the time.
Of course there's a further complicating factor that if we do actually put the breaks on, people may either lose interest or go 
get other appointments.
Yes, but that's a
But that's, that's sort of 
Six months at the outside isn't it, this works for?
Mm.
In two weeks.
Is that what it is?
Why's that?
Well
I think is not the
It is although, but that's, er, were thinking of changing that quite radically.
Mm.
In my inclinations to actually go ahead with the with the interviewing round for your, er er how many did you say you?
Six.
No, sorry, erm, for the
Women investigators .
The investigator.
For the investigator.
Six.
About six, plus one.
I think six plus one, I think that's right.
And get those to the same stage as the, the complaints examiner.
Because then at least you might be able to write out a few more.
Yes.
You could be quite openly 
We are talking about, with either of those groups, making the appointment from that pool, erm, in fact any time between now and the beginning of the next financial year.
Mm.
If they were still available, and they may not be.
You're front runner is, isn't local and unemployed, is he or she, your complaints examiner?
No.
No.
Although presumably
Sadly not.
Has to get
Is there still  private practices?
No?
Just give a months notice.
Where?
Bristol.
Okay.
I think we reluctantly
Now I would do it slightly differently, I mean I would say that we want you to, we invite you to the next round of our recruitment thing, but there i , er have no decision has yet been taken as to how many if any appointments will actually be made.
So that at the time people are invited to the er interview 
Yes.
rather than 
Yes.
at, yes, I think that's fair.
Yes, I I don't think that the this is bigoted as you think though in getting that kind of letter, I mean it seems, er that the civil service er recruit on that basis every year, and er, there is no guarantee if you get through the, the various screening bits that you do actually end up with a job, because that depends on vacancies coming up.
Well as long as people are told .
Well as long as people know that, yes, yes, yes.
I think the first priority is that people are clear as to what the score is.
Mm.
Re , well reasonably, clear so that they, it it's fair to them.
Erm, just to pull back a bit then, I mean, two things seem to, I mean have we, what is our view on you putting Sarah in the middle if we don't recruit, and two, don't we need, probably the four of us to look at  current resources
Yes.
er, future resources,an and rework our boundaries as well because I, I mean losing Anne is not going to be that easy.
Quite, and I I have got a high proportion of of staff and you ha you will have a a low one would you 
Yes.
say.
I think we do need to make some adjustments, in the light of that, if we remain in our present staffing level.
Mm.
From the first of September are you talking about?
I would have to see, I think.
Mr
From round about then, cos I asked for the  
After the summer period.
Well, yes.
I would have thought so.
I think it would be for us to talk together, the four of us for a start, and er, and bring proper proposals to future meetings wouldn't it?
I think probably, what we could do with is a some criteria as to what what complaints are going to go to the complaint examiner if we've only got one of them.
Yes.
That shouldn't be too difficult, are we having 
We 
an L L M next month ?
That's just what I was going to ask, because it would be September, wouldn't it?
Yes, I think so, because we don't usually have one in M August, do we?
That's right.
The meeting on the thirtieth of July aren't we, with er what's 
Yes.
his name.
er Jack Taylor.
Taylor.
Er, after that people starting going on leave, is is anybody out away due in the first week in August?
Erm, yes, me.
Now normal , er now I mean, day would be the ninth of August, wouldn't it?
Oh, I'm a, away the second of August.
Your due back on the ninth?
And back on the ninth.
As I recall it, that we didn't have a week during August where everybody was here, indeed we looked at diaries .
No.
No, we didn't.
Mm.
No we didn't.
Mm.
No, we didn't.
I I'm likely, er to be away the last two weeks in August, and David's going to be away the last week in August and the first of September, weren't you?
Is that right?
No it's it's the one week which bridges the two erm months, but er er I will be, that we would normally be meeting again on the thirteenth of September, wouldn't we?
Yes.
Mhm.
Is that too late?
Or too early ?
No I couldn't accept.
No.
Okay, I'm getting to September.
Do we know exactly when Anne is leaving?
Yes.
Tenth of September.
Well she's stopping work, I think in late August, isn't she?
She'll have leave, if she
She
She's got 
Sorry?
some leave.
I mean, she's she's effectively not getting complaints as from now
Oh, right .
so I've got to get rid of her staff.
Mm.
H right, shall we have a coffee cup for  
Good idea.
Oh.
He's right about the will.
But they haven't discriminated
Well they had one, but that was er, that was never changed from the time when we had complaint examiners before.
Cos an investigator that couldn't do stage twos?
Yes.
In other words allocation was not,
Yes.
there was no intelligent decision on allocation, it was simply,
Yes, that's right .
allocate as an investigator,
That's right, it was reallocated  as a stage two .
and then reallocated again, but I think that's daft.
But there, there, most recent one was over a Sarah Patten, and the they are now repeating that one as I understand it .
Oh, good.
Yes.
Well a high priority that one, so the they're recruiting two e , two new Sarah Patten ones.
Right, erm, budget E control.
I don't think we've got to the early days, made too many assumptions from this, particularly as they are seasonality er erm adjustment isn't terribly good.
Er, we need to now have some  to er cover the cost of proposed adaptations to bring support staff together, which I'll, which we've got in hand, and we'll also be miring money, I think from the salary budget to help with the cost of er the total quality training.
Erm, the with with reference to something that comes up later on the training budget looks a small figure, as against what we're talking about later in the meeting.
Er that's because the er the the the training budget at the moment down for York is purely er the attendance of professional conferences,
Right.
and everything else comes in the er personnel training, in lieu of the personnel budget.
Oh right, right.
Can items for the management team executive committee, I think I have three, erm one is to say that the the title of the total quality programme is going to be improvement through quality, in which case that's the, that's the phraseology which we should use from now on, is it like, it'll actually abbreviate to I Q rather than T Q.
How effective.
It's just one of those phrases 
that's meaningless in reality.
Except that there's an implication there that there's, well I suppose there is a need to improve isn't there really.
Yeah, quality through improvement, might be better.
Mm.
Er.
Never mind.
Secondly, there's an item in the management team tele-conference minute which are due to be confirmed today, the which I shall be querying about work in the office, out of office hours.
Mm.
Yes.
Erm, and it is not my intention to implement that minute at the moment, because I think it relates purely to a London situation.
Where are we at?
Sorry.
The commission's legal liabilities to establish efforts.
No, well there's a ne 
it's the next isn't it over the 
it's 
page, I think Richard?
Was this because of the over accident ?
Ah, right.
Yes, yes, yes.
And the the logic of what's being said there is effectively to abandon the flexitime scheme out of, for working out of office hours,.
Well wouldn't?
Erm, I thought flexitime scheme began at seven thirty and ended at seven thirty?
Yes, but a that that is saying 
There are so beyond seven thirty, though.
Oh yes.
What, what does that minute say.
It says,until firm decision is taken the  staff would not be allowed to work within office buildings out of flexitime hours .
Out of flexitime hours, right .
Yes.
So presumably, for, that would be seven thirty 
Oh, right.
to seven thirty.
Right.
Well there's no logic to that there because the the lack of cover and er whatever applies the minute the last person leaves, and that erm it lies that the the concern is that if somebody who was in on the building, in the building on their own has an accident,
Mm.
nobody might discover it until the office opens on the next morning, erm
But there's always going 
it's that 
to be a last person.
Mm.
That's right.
Yes.
Yes, that's right .
Rather than that's, but you make sure it's ju 
Except if you call 
Could be a last person at six er clock .
the last people who leave 
This
So what about are beavers,
Four o'clock.
who are on the staff, and in theory work until quarter to eight  
Well it's exactly the same problem, I think.
Except there's two of them, and they're always to 
Not at the moment.
Not at the moment.
I thought there was two 
There should be two.
I saw someone else floating around.
There should be two.
Erm, I mean it is a problem, and er one that we're addressing, but
Mm.
er at the moment I wasn't wanting to s s change any anything that, which is been happening up till now, I mean if people do want to come in here at weekends or late I don't see any reason
Mm.
to stop them at the moment.
I don't.
So
carry the risk.
is it, is it that the insurance 
were in there weren't they?
yes, but is the insurance not, does it not cover people in the premises outside office time .
No, no I don't think it's an insurance problem.
No it isn't.
It's a, no, it's a
It's a worry about people hurting themselves.
Yes.
Yes, as you say, I mean I think that's erm for the people themselves
Yes.
I thought it might be that there was a, we weren't covered for the liability to pick people 
Quite.
if something happened.
Or we face prosecution.
I think there's a , you face prosecution for failing to provide a safe system of work, or something.
I mean that could be the case at eight.
I mean, for instance, there is no first aider on duty, as apparently, well there's a suggestion that you need to have a first aider on duty if you've got people in the building.
Good .
Erm, and that's why I'm saying
Mm.
we don't have a first aider on duty outside normal office hours, not flexitime hours, and er, if you're 
letting that run the thing.
No.
Mm.
So it will.
Just forget tha about that and I will
it this afternoon.
And people  all over the place.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes they are.
Take your first aider with you .
You'll probably find the 
that'll that'll that'll throw the budget into confusion, won't it?
The first aider would also need an ergonomics officer.
Erm, now, the the third thing was about the training program, just to reiterate where we are on this, that if a request is made for personal development training in the current year, if you remember we , if we identify training needs that that we as management identify, that people need in order to do there present job, and then that takes absolute priority and we should get on and do those, but we get a large number of requests where people erm are, saying that they like to do things which they don't need to do, but which they think will better equip them, and if they're, if we're getting any new requests this year with an expectation that further expenditure will be sought in the next financial year, that's ninety four, five, then that request will be refused, in other words we ca , we do not see our way to committing ourselves to any
Mm.
training expense next year, er er er in that category.
Although we might be prepared outside our normal scheme to fund the current year's training for such people on the understanding that future funding will not be available, so in other words if somebody comes along to you and says, I'd like to do an M B A, beginning this year, now normally we we would say, yes, we will contribute our half to that cost, er and that would then be a high priority on our budget to provide continued support for the rest of that M B A course, we're now saying that that the answer is actually no, because we cannot provide support next year, we don't think, er but if you never the less want to go ahead this year and then fund it yourself from then on, then we we have actually got money available which we can use this year.
That make sense to people?
Yes.
Yes.
It would have to be, given what we've just been talking about.
Er
Could I raise just the one minute of the Tail Conference, David?
The erm, the the nature of the erm the fourteenth of June, the the the Total Quality minute, the it seems to be referring to a document that sets out various phases of the er Total Quality programme.
Is it possible to get a copy of that?
No.
Mm.
Short answer, I mean it's the the it's it repeats referring to a document which Gordon  had produced,whi whi which has already been er amended, erm, which bit are you actually looking at?
The item, item three.
Yes,we ,we 
For the proposals in Gordon's memo were agreed.
It seems to be referring to a document that that that sets out the whole total quality process as far as the commission is concerned .
Yes, it sets it.
Erm, no it doesn't, it picks out various bits from er er from a memo that Gordon dealt with, it doesn't set out the total alternate budget process .
Ah, I see.
Mm,
Okay.
Erm
Thank you.
Alright.
You will simply need to wait until the thing is sufficiently settled that you can get the total package set out here, and 
Mm.
we're not quite sure what it is you are wanting that you are wha what specific query you've got.
Well I haven't, it's just that that people have said, you know, when the permissions available can we see it as soon as possible that was all, I just wondered if that document was available,
No.
but I mean if it's not yet that's fine.
A bit like asking what heaven's like and being told you have to die first.
Well let's hope that that's a good analogy.
Yes, I agree with that, say that would 
The heaven bit anyway.
that would re that would er ease your recruitment problem.
I would point out that the same applies to hell.
Right, that takes us on to looking at er Pink team minutes which we haven't got, is that right ?
We haven't actually got the Pink team minutes yet.
But and green team that we have, and
We're well worth spending a few hours over this, I think.
I think so, yes, and since my watch  
Can I minute that we thank the green team?
What about the bit at the top of page two, which says that  still don't use them in York
This?
at the analytical thinking seminar held in November.
Yes,
I I read that with great interest,I'm not at all sure what it means.
No Ha Hardy phoned me last week asking for the details of jobs we get fr , er of who to erm who to contact for it, that's all for that needs.
I see, she's probab presumably referring to the March, erm
Yeah, yeah.
and not the November one
Mm.
I have in fact si since seeing this sent her a copy of the paper I put to this meeting, erm, having seen that, because I didn't know that she was waiting for it to  the commentary with.
No.
But it's on it's way.
Seventeen, I'd wondered about.
Erm
Yes, I was intrigued by that one.
I was going to ask to ask the assistant new commission policy.
No, it didn't, er as far as I know.
What is the policy?
Was it everything goes second apart from er
Reports.
Reports.
apart formal reports, and
We, even even that is is that we we we we we even had a party on faxing, didn't we?
Which I suspect has lapsed.
Then we should fax the home one page letters.
Yes.
Mm.
if possible.
Yes, I'm not, I'm not sure that's still happens, does it?
Do you know Karen?
I think so, hmm.
I expect I've got a tell from the files.
It's cheaper to fax a one page letter than it is to post it.
Yes.
So we are reiterating our policy of 
faxing one page letters rather than posting them.
I think that's worth the effort, yes.
and er
But certainly not announcing this first class post .
and not intending to er send things by first class post .
Yes, erm, do we accept faxed letters as complaints?
Yes.
Cos I thought we did.
Why ever not?
But I've only seen one or two, can we think about photocopying them if it's that thin, because by the time it gets to me sometimes it's not legible.
Ah, well it should, you're probably talking about old ones rather than new ones, because they use fax machine prints on plain paper rather than 
I see.
on curly and shiny paper .
Right, well I I just just looked at one where I was struggling, that's why I mention it.
I always love the idea of information disa disappearing slowly.
Oh yes.
Relatively quickly I think.
I just wondered whether we've actually met the requirements of the, of the act .
Matches my mind.
I presume it does, but it it could be argued, couldn't it?
No, if a complaints made in writing it's good .
Possibly it is but it's not a na proper signature, it's a photocopied signature.
Should we not accept an original 
Oh, got to have some bits of writing somewhere.
The act doesn't refer to signatures, does it?
Oh it does actually, yes, I have
Okay, anything else on the green team ?
I'm not bothered either way as long as I can read it.
Right.
Looking at, looking at Marlene's minutes then, page one.
Page two, trying to pick up the bit at over the bottom of the door.
Hmm?
Your office appears unwelcoming.
Yes, I was
I mean we're not exactly trying to get people to drop in off the street, are we?
I I er I er our office now appears in exactly the same way as the other two, namely that you need to announce yourself and who you are before you get let in the door.
Yes.
I was quite surprised that there was some sort of strength of feeling, that the balance between providing security, and the impression that we gave to visitors, although it was acknowledged we didn't have a lot of visitors coming in, there was a feeling 
to us.
that it had had maybe tilted the the wrong way.
I think with the the people who say that it should have clear instructions, it's not immediately obvious which button you should press, and maybe you, maybe something which says, Visitors, please press here, or something like that.
Mr  could please press over there.
Exactly.
Er.
Because I never know in London which button to press, either the one at the top or the one at the bottom .
I remember, very con , I remember very confusing
Yes it is.
I press them both and er
See what happens.
something'll happen, don't know what.
I just hope the receptionist 
It always 
sees me arriving and
Well she usually does, she's incredibly 
Yes that's right.
Yes.
good.
Yes, that's right.
They're nearly always open before I get there that er
Can you do something about the?
We will see what we can come up with that'll be weather proof, we may just have to keep on going out er sticking labels 
Great.
The bit about reception is writing the visitor's name in the visitors book seems to be quite reasonable.
I'm
I I object on principal when I go to places saying write your name in the visitors book, so why should you.
Yes, it actually came up 
What purpose does it serve?
because one or two people have er relatives that come in at the end of the day to collect them or
Right.
you know, give them a lift home, and they felt that it was a bit discourteous to be asked to write them name in the book every time, and it it I mean it seemed to be quite reasonable that we're
I'm less worried about being discourteous to relatives that I am to er other people, frankly.
and and also not all erm there was reference made to, I can't remember which company it was, but somebody, you know, who was th not particularly literate had filled in the book.
Well I don't think it's, I don't think it's terribly good actually to be able to to be telling other people who has already been here, erm
Mm, good.
I am conscious that I have visited somebody a while ago and noticed the name of somebody e in the book in which rang very loud alarm bells in my mind
Mm.
as to what they were doing there, and
Mm.
that therefore it would be better not to be doing that, so perhaps we can change that, okay?
Mhm.
How though?
By not having a visitors book?
Oh no, Jackie will ask for 
Yes.
the name and just fill it in .
but not get, not get them to sign it.
No.
She'll, she'll write their name .
She'll just write their name.
Dead simple.
I was just thinking that maybe at the beginning of the day people could, if she knows who is due she could actually write that in, and when they came she could just tick that that they'd arrived.
Well there is a of course the tannoy coming in, the  
Yes, I noticed that.
cos the fire officer asked for that.
Yes.
Mm.
Does the, but we don't keep a list, do we, of whose of our own staff is in the building
No.
No.
Yes, Jackie has the whereabouts, now if she keeps, she also keeps a list of the erm support staff, but if they actually go out at lunch time that we don't know.
Mm, of course.
Or at tea, when they come in in the morning or when they go home in the evening.
Mm.
That's right, I mean there's a grey area between 
Yes.
eight and ten in the evening and four 
Mhm.
to six 
Yes.
at night, we'd be very uncertain if there had been an alarm bells rang then.
Coventry have a book which they keep for fire purposes of, signing themselves in and out.
What would be easier would be a simple board with everybody's name and you just sort of erm put it across to in or out as you are coming up.
Except there's quite a lot of people back there .
There's fifty of us to put on it.
I know, but never the less it's easier to
So you couldn't carry it outside when the fire alarm went off .
I was going to say, it's likely to be
Well you could, you could have it on a hook.
I've, I've, all little things,
Sewn on.
all the little things that er 
Yeah, Bob's wife.
burned to death rescuing board.
I, I, can't see it, it seems to be one of those things that has no purpose.
Well, only in case of accident or injury, you see.
Yeah, but I 
Well we do, we do have another means don't we, were by the fire officers on each floor or each area 
In each section.
will, will check through
Well
the rooms in their area.
if we're serious about that we need I think to review that very regularly, because I moved offices and discovered I was still a fire officer for a part of the office I wasn't even part of,
It needs to be kept up to date.
or was more accurately a fire officer for a part of an office that I wasn't aware of, so I mean I think.
There should really be somewhere in the building a place which tells you who is in the building at what times .
I don't know what question to  I thought all  were supported out, with the assumption that they were going to be  
No, I'm a fire officer.
I'm a fire officer.
So am I.
Yeah, I'm a fire officer.
That's why you're intriguing about this, I thought that
We that would be alright for Marlene 
it would be better if they were support
Yes.
staff, because er 
Yes but there wasn't any support in Marlene's area.
But when we moved them,
There will be.
there will be.
That's true, yes.
Alright, well maybe, perhaps we could have a review of why our fire
Yes.
arrangements are anything else on page er three.
Trois.
Page
Could I just go back to er this health and safety, erm it says here that there is a personal alarm on reception, that's the receptionist.
I could put another one on for any member of staff who wishes to take one to use at interviews.
I thought that's what we said last time we were doing.
No, you said would I bring it up at this meeting.
Did I, but you you you brought it up last meeting, that that that erm people were going as supposed to be coming back with good ideas as to how to cope with interviews in other rooms, but we said in last time that we were going to have a personal round bill.
A bit like the aerosol.
Yeah.
You did a paper which said,
Yes.
wherever an interview takes place people can take this personal alarm with them
Yes.
and should alert somebody nearby to listen for it, did that?
So it took out  
All my investigators who want them have got personal alarms of their own.
The ladies?
Yes.
Mm.
Well presumably the men as well.
Mm.
If they want them too.
All the ones who wanted them.
Yes.
Like this.
Just something .
Mm.
Indeed.
Bottom of page three.
Page four.
It's only just occurred to me erm, somebody mentioned that new members of staff, and the support staff ever since, but it needn't necessarily be arrive.
And no one, sort of knows.
No one is aware of what's going on, doesn't have a chance to meet them.
Is it possible when we get a new member of, that, not that they're brought round, which I think must be frightfully intimidating, but that we are told, and therefore we can drop in and say, hello, I'm so and so, just to say hello.
Oh, you mean in other teams.
Yes, I mean I'd no idea who Carol  was, I just bumped into her.
It was in the minutes, you should have read them.
I did.
I said  I assume this be Carol ?
Just a small point, but I think when people arrive that they they perhaps feel isolated, and that we're a little unfriendly.
Well we have got quite a lot of detail working package from within their own teams, and within the support staff, so you want that extended so that they can  
Nothing elaborate, just a note, perhaps to A D saying 
Mm.
there is a new, perhaps your staff could drop in and say, hello some time during the week .
I don't mind dropping in and saying, hello, we we are getting to a size where, er I think it's speci slightly impractical, I mean er I can see there was so might be useful to know there's a new member of staff here, it's either then say there was somebody wandering around, who are you and what are you doing here.
Mm.
Mm.
Yes I think  
Just a little note,.
Yes, I think that 
Okay.
would be useful.
So and so has started, or will start, alright.
Yes,cert 
Then.
in the week before somebody comes then I think perhaps a note saying, so and so's starting.
Okay.
Mhm.
We haven't got anybody else's minutes to look at?
No.
The trainee plan, which I think I can now re-vote.
If you want to say anything about that?
Tie me up.
Why was the Lotus issue put into this mo this year's training plan when it was last year's money?
I don't know.
I'm not sure.
It actually took place this year.
Did it?
Yes.
No.
It was in March, wasn't it?
No, no it took took place in the end of March.
Did it?
I thought it was the beginning of April .
Yeah.
It did.
I just 
Yes.
wondered if there was anything significant about it?
No.
Right.
A bit 
I just  
Taking off and being done, that is.
Okay.
Can I just, er, clarify the poi , the very last item, the er the Jules, Jules M B E, erm I thought she was finishing new one?
Er, well, she she's not being supported by the commission for year one, and in fact she won't be supported for year two either, so the thing that, I I'm I'm I put it in as a potential budget
Well.
thing for next year, but I mean she will be one of those caught by the thing saying we're not going to do it anyway.
Is the attendance at professional conferences something that's earmarked, or is it just 
That's the five hundred pounds that's in our budget as opposed to in the the the personnel budget.
Yes.
There is 
I mean that that's a er that's a
It, it's an estimate so that it's there if anybody wants to say.
Yes, that's to deal with the odd request in the course of year.
Yes, right.
Right.
C P D stands for Continuous Professional Development, it applies only to Nick at the moment.
Mm.
Okay?
The analytical skills one you put seven hundred and fifty d down d d does that mean you had in mind that there might be three seminars in the course of the year.
Er.
No I don't think it'd be, don't think it meant that, I thought we went, to could be two, we're going to have another one.
I think we had 
Yes.
in mind that we should have another one but er
Yes.
the previous one cost us I think two hundred pounds.
Erm, well I think we had budgetary provision in five hundred for it, and I think we've probably increased it, er was it unchanged originally?
It means we might have some money left over after  
Yes, right, okay.
mine's more suited to that, I think next time er once we've got somewhere out of the way and can
That's right.
actually get these things done.
I was going to say, is there anything on the cards for local authority finance, or is that still awaiting?
Erm
Well, how about a memo about it to somebody saying can they suggest a potential person, you know.
And we haven't had a reply back.
Alright, consultation on twenty six five, procedures.
This is Teresa's response to the proposal.
If anybody wants to comment on it, or any I think perhaps just confirm the calculation about being roughly one a day, that erm if you take the number of decisions that we made in the last twelve months, twenty one point eight percent of which were, erm, decisions to be put out by twenty six five, if we divide that by four, divide it by fifty two, and divide it by five you end up with point eight six per day, er
Is that right ?
Quite sure why, how somebody else says that the number of twenty six five termination suggests that peers will be dealing with more than one file each day, well, but that's what the arithmetic says.
Mm.
And also would agree  that team secretaries wouldn't be involved.
Yeah.
Yes.
What, on the basis that if the P A isn't there the areas are going to to do it themselves.
Or pass it for another.
Yes.
Either that or if there was further weights redundant to an investigator.
And there is certainly no plans for other complaints to go to P As.
Well, erm 
Are there?
Stay with that a minute, erm, erm,I mean I wouldn't have thought we were in a position to give an assurance that er erm, that that no other complaints which appear to be outside the local ombu ombudsman's restriction will be dealt with by support staff, I mean I should think we're continuing looking continually looking for ways of dealing with complaints at the most efficient and effective way, and if that
Certainly given assurance there's no plans.
Well there are no no immediate plans you could say.
Slightly disingenuous, in fact we are saying, there is a possibility that er
Hang on a minute, I just wan want to work out what happens if a complaint comes in against the Gas board?
Well the A D would perhaps, no I suppose it might not have reached me.
No it wouldn't.
No.
Sometimes they do.
So.
It's already been dealt with by support staff .
By support staff, and.
Mm, yeah.
Yes, Joe?
So I don't think you,I should think partly we just cannot give an assurance that no other complaints will be dealt with by support staff, really that we.
No, you can't, er, sorry, I was taking that literally that we we certainly not intending it, this was this was very much directed at twenty six five.
Erm, nor I think are there any proposals to change the grading or pay honorarium to P As to reflect there work on these files, er, I'm not sure whether the assumption that this wouldn't be taken into account by the W R  is sound, because I think one of the principles that I recall was that he were meant to ensure that that each of these job evaluation panels had somebody from each office so that an account could be taken of the different practices, I mean I'm sure that, I'm sure that each of the three offices in the er deal with things in a different way, so that er what gets done by one person here is not necessarily done by people in Coventry and York, and that in fa in London, and that also holds good in the other way, I think.
Do we see any difficulty in er in what were in effect saying, that the base says, we have no objection to the proposed wording from either the extra duties recognized in outline above, and they're not going to be.
Fine.
Right.
Is it at at the bottom paragraph?
Yeah.
Mm.
I'm just trying to see what extra duties are recognized as outlined above, presumably, yeah.
Well I don't have any problems with what you say.
Well, on the para four job evaluation erm it seems to me that this is an item that can be fed into the, would automatically be fed into the  evaluation process .
Yeah.
Don't forget we're talking about changing people, somebody's job description to include a  Can you?
Yes.
Right, er next evening we settle the thirteenth of September then?
Mhm.
Outside the meeting can I just say I'm getting some of the new screening sheets through, you know  first, but people don't seem to know what they're supposed to do with them and their in exactly the same position that they were before.

er on angiogenesis as an indicator of prognosis for invasive bladder cancer  presented I believe by erm   and representing er colleagues from Bristol, er Oxford and Sheffield.
Thank you.
Mr Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon.
The relationship between tumour and blood supply has been noted by surgeons and indeed some physicians for centuries.
In his thesis on blood, inflammation and gunshot wounds, published in eighteen twenty eight, John Hunter stated that in disease in which there is an increase in the part, as in tumours, the increase in vessels is conspicuous
Now, our understanding of this relationship has increased dramatically over the past few years and our knowledge of new vessel formation or angiogenesis has also increased.
And it is has been shown that angiogenesis is in fact essential to tumour growth.
Tumours er greater than two millimetres in size require their own blood supply.
It is also essential for metastasis.
Now John Hunter noted there was an association between the quantity of the vessels and the tumour and recently this has been er shown with micro-vessel quantification to be an important problems to indicator  
tumours.
Now, we've used this  technique in invasive bladder cancer, and we've quantified the micro-vascularity in a group of invasive cancers and looked at the prognosis and metastasis.
We found no res relationship between angiogenesis and metastasis but the rest of this paper will er concentrate on its role in prognosis.
Forty five patients we looked at, age ranged fifty to ninety one, had the mean age of seventy three.
Now follow up ranged between one and fifty one months.
All tumours were solid or had elements of er capillary and solid tumours and , routine  sections were stained with a standard aminohistochemical technique, using anti C D thirty one anti-clotting.
Now C D thirty one is an endophilial cell adhesion molecule and the antibody has been shown to be the most specific marker of vascoendophilia and consistently in studies has stained more vessels than other markers.
We estimated the count er by looking at each individual section at low power and collecting the three most vascular areas.
Then with a twenty five point chalky eyepiece graticule er the counts were made at high power.
Now when you look down the microscope through the graticule what one sees is twenty five randomly spaced dots overlying your er section.
If you rotate the graticule such that the maximum number of dots covers erm a stained  and then you count those number of dots, that's the count.
And we did that in the three areas, so we used the sum of three vascular counts in the analysis.
Now  we looked at both capillary tumours and solid tumours, but as this pictures demonstrates, we're not y er able accurately to determine the count of capillary tumours.
This is the stain that you get, it's, it's black showing vessels.
Now these are all  vessels and these aren't the ones that we're interested in, we're interested in the small tumour induced vessels.
Because we weren't able to define with any confidence areas of neovascularization in capillary tumours we've based the study on those tumours with solid er solid tumours or those with solid elements.
This is what you see when you do er the staining, on the left is an area of low count.
And I don't think, if you can just see small areas of vessel stains, this has a erm only a few vessels present within the solid tumour.
But on the right an area of a high count where a great deal more of vessels are present.
Of our forty five patients nine had T two tumours and thirty six had T three tumours.
Thirty three had a solid morphology and twelve had a mixed morphology.
Now we performed uni-variant analysis looking at all the parameters shown on the left.
We confirmed, which was j with a bit of luck, that T two tumours do significantly better than T three tumours, P value of nought point nought nought two.
We also showed that grade two do significantly better than grade three, but most importantly perhaps is that we showed that patients with a vascular count that are less than twenty one do significantly better than patients with a vascular count of greater or equal to twenty one.
P value of nought point nought one.
We showed no significant difference between solid or mixed tumours and significant difference between tumours which had diploid picture or haploid picture on a D N A analysis.
We then placed all these parameters in a multi-variant analysis.
The only two that remained significant were stage and vascular count.
In other words, vascular count is a significant, independent prognostic er indicator in this group of invasive bladder cancers.
Look at the survival curve of the vascular count, percentage of surviving up the Y axis and time in months on the on the X axis.
These two curves are significantly different.
The top curve, in yellow, is for counts less than twenty one, now the four year survival for this group is around forty three percent.
With a median survival of thirty five months.
Compared with those counts of greater or equal to twenty one, which is the white curve, greater or equal to twenty one, white curve, which is the lower curve.
And this four year survival of only twenty three percent with a median survival of around nine months.
Now to calculate the hazard ratio on these two groups, those patients with counts of greater or equal to twenty one were two and half times more likely to die of their disease than those with counts of less than twenty one.
In a paper that was published in nineteen eighty five, Journal of Urology, Shipley looked at prognostic factors in invasive cancer.
The overall er five year survival for all, all invasive cancers are around about er twenty percent er twenty eight percent.
But within this group he looks specifically at solid tumours and they only have a four year survival of twenty percent.
So using vascular counts we are able to define a group of patients that do significantly better.
Therefore this simple technique of counting vessels as an assessment of angiogenesis does provide us with additional prognostic information and is good for patients.
And in summary, Mr Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, we would suggest that the assessment of angiogenesis in bladder cancer is an important and promising er prognostic indicator and has therapeutic implications.
Not only in being able to select a group where perhaps we can justify more aggressive therapy, or even a group that perhaps we should just treat palatally but also in the future with the development of anti- angiogenic therapy.
Thank you very much.
I'd like to start the question briefly with two points, firstly, you had forty nine patients?
No.
We had forty five.
Forty five.
Y you must have had many more than forty five 
Yeah.
tumours  over the last 
Yeah.
year or so  .
Th we're limited to solid tumours or patients that have an element of solid tumour on histology.
We did in fact have sixty eight patients, unfortunately erm thirteen of these  insufficient biopsy material for us to do the count erm and
Mm.
erm we excluded all the superficial ones that had solid  because it was insufficient  er one patient we couldn't get the stain to work.
Right.
Just that  multi-variant analysis on forty five leaves you with some very tiny subgroups.
Yeah.
I it does.
We weren't erm we weren't able to do a multi-variant analysis with the grade because we didn't have a sufficient number of, of the grade to do it.
But we er the, there were sufficient for all the other .
Microphone five, please.
a question .
Mark  from Liverpool.
The way that erm one might have effective treatment for muscle invasive bladder cancer, if one uses radiotherapy, is maintain a decent oxygen supply to the tumour and if one uses chemotherapy to deliver the blood to the tumour.
Have you got any information about the efficacy of the treatments that were used in those ?
We haven't we haven't analyzed the results according to the treatment that the patients received.
Erm we know that three patients had cystectomies and one er that then the remainder have radiotherapy but I haven't analyzed the results dividing them into curative or potent radiotherapy.
And none had chemotherapy?
Erm, I think one had, one had chemotherapy.
There, we hadn't got enough in the group to, to make that erm analysis.
Microphone five, again.
Er , Glouston.
I noticed your survival curves tend to er come together er in about four years, and you're not  attending in that direction.
Well, then all survival curves will eventually
Well, of .
come together won't they?
Now did you, did you find that er were you ab were you able to repeat any of the biopsies and see whether in the er in the er group with the less vessels more, more vessels were er accumulating?
Er ?
We haven't looked at any of the repeat biopsies, no.
We didn't look at them , we just chose death as an end point because it's the easiest end point to choose.
So we looked at just the,th the histology  of the patient and related it to the prognosis.
We haven't looked .
Microphone two, please.
Er Joanna  from Middlesbrough.
I just want to ask you about the actual erm methodology, which sections did you examine?
And you said you just chose the three most vascular, could you tell me a bit more 
Yeah.
about that?
The section we chose were the ones that were chosen by the pathologist because they were the best representative sample of that tumour.
In what respect?
In, in being able to stage or grade them.
In what respect?
I don't know, what do you mean by in wh 
I mean th there are pretty clear cut guidelines for doing morphometric analysis of erm tumour erm er tumour structure.
You know, cells, erm vascular tissue, connective tissue matrix.
Which particular technique did you use?
Because you just seem to have chosen the things by looking, not by actually randomly sampling from the tumours.
W we cut,th the path pathological er er the  where the blocks come from, they're graded one, two, three, four.
One is the best example from the tumour that came from the reception.
So that was a na er that was a naked eye examination?
Well we know that from the repo the initial report 
Mm.
done by the pathologist.
He'd designated that was the best block.
We cut that section, we stained it and then looked at it under low power and selected out from that block the three most vascular areas.
We could have chosen the three least  vascular areas but then the counts wouldn't have been, would have been much more difficult..
Yeah, but why wouldn't they have been much more relevant?
Because y you, obviously you've presented different information in your talk this afternoon, you've given us more information that was in your abstract, so the figures are different, where you, in your abstract you just talked about differences between G three, T three tumours.
Well in the abstract we were loo we, I bought them and decided whether they are high or low counts, we now have a way of quantifying that, we have a way of counting each individual er vessel.
So we're can no we can number them as such.
Well, ha, there's no point counting things unless the counts are relevant to the condition you're looking at.
If you can 
just look at the naked eye appearance and choose three areas that you think are most vascular 
from a one-off block.
No.
They're not it's not just choosing th they're stained  
It's not going, going to be representative.
the areas are the most stained.
They're the most strongly stained areas, they have the most vessels, therefore you choose to count them.
Yeah and I think were not, we'll perhaps talk afterwards .
Can I suggest you do so?
Yeah.
Microphone one please.
Er in use of other  you should have the difference in survival between the patients that had more than twenty one or less than twenty one but actually it er you didn't show us the survival curves for  
reaction against the survival curves er with the G er pathology grade and the G with the tumour and to see actually the difference which we can, in curves which we can deduct from counting the vascularity.
No.
We chose just to show this one curve of vascular count cos that's what we think is important.
Cos if we have seen the, the same survival curves according to the er pathology  so it'll have been er more that G three is worse than G two but er there is a difference in your curves between the grading quality and the vascularity.
We know now that it's really needed to count the vessels because we will get definitely more information .
Well the uni-variant analysis and the multi-variant analysis shows that i it is, adds additional information.
I didn't show you the, the grade and the stage curves because we all know what they look like but what I'm saying is that by doing the count provides us with additional information on this group of patients.
More than we can gain from looking at the grade and the stage.
I think the real nitty gritty of this question is, given a T tumour can you pick out the good from the bad using this technique?
And can you give us the figures to support that?
Erm  from a specifically, no, what I we can pick out the bad solid tumours and the good solid tumours.
Yes but you accepted that T staging was still the strongest prognostic indicator 
Yes, it is.
we will all continue using that.
If we add to that your technique 
Right.
will it benefit us and the patient?
From this pilot study I cannot say yes or no, but what I can say is that this pilot study suggests that it will
It may.
It may.
A and numbers in our, a s in a stage group  too small to say definitely that we can pick out those T two tumours  badly or well on the vascular count.
But what we can say is that we can select out from the group of solid tumours the ones that do badly.
Can we look forward to your poster next year with a couple of hundred T two patients?
Mm.
Have you another question?
Yes, I was just wondering, er raise one point.
The C D thirty one staining, is that just identifying blood vessels?
Or is it possibly staining blood vessels that, that are under attack by vascular invasion?
Erm  I can't answer that.
Erm because I, I know that er  cell adhesion molecule C D thirty one is present in all erm vascular, vascular endophilia whether it's, it's erm er expressed in more erm  vessels  average  
Thank you very much indeed.
Thank you.
Oh, we've got one more quick question.
Oh, two.
Okay.
Microphone one please.
Come on.
We've got just er two minutes.
.
If this is another exhibition of the intercapillary distance in er progno in defining the prognosis

These are questions that I'd like to ask you from what you've told me so far, erm, I'd like to ask you Mr  about erm, from your point of view, from your erm experience with the electrical 
Yeah 
business about light fittings.
I like to ask you both about your experience of moving into Harlow and of living in this house, which is a totally separate set of questions 
Mm, mm 
erm, why I suppose that's two completely different questions and I'd like to ask you from your point of view, from your point of view 
I don't think there's a very great deal in the way of er lighting fittings one can talk about erm in houses in Harlow, it's er, there's a, a distinct difference between the light, a lot, lot of architects in, in Harlow have lived in Harlow you see and they will go in for all the very latest type of lighting fittings erm and because they have er access to the books for the various er designers of lighting fittings er, generally though, they, the majority of the people in the town er have come from er London boroughs and erm they view the same kind of lighting fittings they've always been used to.
I mean when I started with a shop in Harlow what, erm, nearly twenty five
Thirty
nearly thirty years ago, erm, we used to sell the old glass bowl fitting on er three chains, hanging from the ceiling and that, and I used to buy those in a crate of about fifty at a time, and er most of the houses had two lighting points in the lounge anyway so, and they'd always wanted a pair and we used to have them in the shop on a display so that about eight of them could all be lit up at once and people could see them and if they didn't like those then the, we could always put another one under the set if we'd got one in a certain colour, we could hang one of those up and er they could look at that and see what it looked like.
Can I go back and ask you two questions.
One, what were the differences when you say that they chose them, so even though the basic shape was the same there were obviously some, there were some variations?
Oh yes, erm I think it was generally, er, they had to match the colouring of the rooms that they'd got, the furniture they'd got really because as far as the room was concerned er when, when the, new houses came onto the erm, ready for occupation, er they were all cream coloured inside and anyway and pale cream  so  they, they'd got er any choice they wanted there it, really it was just to match their curtains, match their carpets, all their furnishings and erm, of course I suppose they, the rose coloured ones er went better than say the lemon coloured one and that because er people just er liked the idea of moving into a place that's got a nice cosy glow in it, place sort of thing, but we never sell any at all, there's, none of that type of fitting in, sold now.
When do you think that that erm stopped being popular?
Oh I, I should think that about fifteen years ago er when erm the lighting manufacturers had decided that er there was a great deal more available in lighting than just the erm, type of glass bowls and shades that had been used, well in between the wars er, I mean after the war was over in nineteen forty six er they were still using the same things that they did before the war and this just carried on er and er it, it only within the last what I suppose fifty years that's over  
In the late sixties 
Yes
people were still using these sort of light fittings?
oh yes, yes, erm it's very difficult to say I think when it actually exactly fades out, it would be, it would be fifteen years ago anyway, er when one used to find that there, there were no more of these being bought at all 
Yes and apart from you, you mention lemon and rose, what other colours were there, can you remember?
Oh yeah, you'd, some people would go for some very awkward colours, er green, which is a terrible colour, blue which is another awkward colour, I mean I even get people today asking for blue lamps for their bedrooms, erm I'm sure they can't read in bed at that rate er, erm, it's an awful colour to use erm and er  I suppose
Orange
yes, any colour you can think of, I mean erm, blue I think is one of the worse, but thinking of lampshades we used to sell a lot of er lampshades for putting on table lamps er and erm, we'd have just about every colour and somebody would come along and say well erm haven't you got one in purple  and of course I'd refrain from saying thank god no I haven't
erm, and er, sometimes even pleased to say well I'll try to get you in purple, but er, nowadays erm, we, we don't go in for that because there's, there's so many er shops now that selling lighting fittings erm and selling nothing else, there isn't one actually in Harlow, but there's one in Epping and there's one in Stortford, erm that er, it's, it's riding a new car people want to see er a good variety of them, have a look at a lot or a washing machine or anything like that, you want to see many before you buy one.
But, but in the fifties you were probably one of the only shops in Harlow that sold 
Oh yes at one time erm after the New Town got well started, after The Stow was built got to the, goes up to The Stow and be beyond er, well it's just, going on into erm, er, towards the swimming bath, it wasn't up there, swimming bath, erm and we used to call it the Shady Shop in, in adverts and er we used to have a lot of people used to come down because there was only The Stow then and er
And you had your shop 
we 
in The Stow?
Oh no, no way, my shop's in Old Harlow always has been
It's always been
Oh yes, yes, erm the er, no I, I suppose when The Stow first started we
When you saying, you saying that people had two points in their lounge
Yes, it was, yes, yes 
was this an open plan
Er
sitting and dining area?
yes, well I don't know, I suppose that nearly all er the houses in Harlow you could say are open planned now, you know had a, had er, a, kitchen dining area that we have, erm or erm lounge, diner, erm they haven't gone in, in this, the ordinary houses, they haven't gone in for building
Can I go back to, I know I keep on harping back, but this about the actual designs of the light fittings, erm you've told me that erm invariably the ceiling er lighting position was fixed by, being in the centre unless it was an open plan
Yeah
with the dining room at one end and a sitting room at the other in which case you had two light, ceiling light 
Yes, that's right , yes
erm and that the number of sockets changed
Yes it started off at er twelve sockets in these house and that er, it must of gone down to about er eight sockets in some houses.
And when you say these houses, the, the number of rooms and that in those sort of houses would be how many?
Well again er, er a three bedroomed house, I would, you see and they were putting one plug in, in, in each, each bedroom and, and two plugs in the main bedroom so they dropped one down altogether and erm, erm in a lounge like this to put two plugs in, sort of one in that corner and one in that corner it's no good to anybody, it's, as much as anything else was er, er about placing plugs as well er, if one's only going to have two plugs well then least one should be able to place them in, in the right positions, er putting them behind doors is, is, is no good at all, a lot of them have been done that way because the it always means flex is going to be draped across the, the door if people are walking in gonna trip over it and erm, they probably got down to now, something er just less than the  standard I would think in the, in the last houses they built.
Did they put double ones in or just single sockets?
Well only in the last er two years I would think, perhaps two and a half years er had they really started putting double plugs in everywhere instead of single plugs
How many of, erm, did you ever come across a house with only one socket in a living room?
In a living room, no, no
Always at least two?
Two yes, at Potter Street there was erm, er houses built with two plugs in and that really wasn't any good at all and that was in erm a living room where there would be er, a dining living room as well
Yes
because the kitchen wasn't large enough and er, and the two plugs in the kitchen as well and that's just not good enough
Yes
for me
Can we go back to the, very quickly to, er to the review of the design of the light fittings in the fifties and sixties, you mentioned the pleated paper ones which were close to the ceiling
Yes
plastic ones which were close to the ceiling, can you, could you give me a bit more of a description of that or perhaps a manufacturer's name?
Well, I, I think that probably erm, when we started out, er, it
again after the war, in this country, they erm, the lighting manufacturers never got round to it, there are too many er, there's, there was too much call for er lighting in offices, shops, schools and that sort of thing and er, so a lot of the idea did come from abroad at first, the er Fin 
shades they were made in Finland they were the paper pleated ones, er, most of them, no, no not most of them, a lot of them fitted er close up onto the ceiling where they're intended for centre lights and were held up onto the ceiling with a little spring, erm, they also did some quite nice pleated paper shades, er at a time when you find that most electrical shops were, would have er the old type of erm what is it, imitation silk shades with fringes round them, er fringe at the top and fringe at the bottom and so on sort of thing, when the, when those was sort of old of age everywhere, it was just the same as it'd been before the war, er it was, you know, quite right really to see these all in different colours, completely plain, but pleated shades but in just one particular colour each shade.
Was the inside of the shade white or did it, did the light glow through and  
The glow through, er yes the paper was erm, was the same colour all the way through and er, and erm they had quite an impact, but of course they, would only last a year or two er and er  they started a small factory in London and, erm call it Hula-Hoops I think er, I don't know whether Hula-Hoops came from the lighting shades or the lighting shades from the Hula-Hoops, but it was the same process that made them both and er this was erm thin plastic tubing brightly coloured, er which was er cemented together into er 
Sponge 
er beehive shapes and er
Yeah
Round
and erm circular shapes, that sort of thing.
Like hanging lanterns?
Yes
Yes, yes
they were very attractive actually
They were very attractive and they did have the advantage that you could take them down and plunge the whole thing in water and wash it and er
And they were popular a lot of people bought them 
Oh yes, yeah 
Oh yes, yes 
sold an awful lot of them
there must of been a thousand thousands sold of this, done I should think
Mm
and erm then some of the people like er  er in London started out erm making shades or er fittings which were erm quite at home in the house er or in the office and erm these were, well that is one design of them the wall back is to match you see, er but you could equally er, put those into erm hotel bedroom or something or er hotel lounge somewhere there, erm or you can get them large with more lamps in them I think and all sorts of new designs were coming out mainly in, in plastic er and erm
That
er they also brought out some a good range of lighting fittings er, which you still see about again used well I, I remember putting one, you saying about putting lights at different levels, erm a staircase which was in a new house which was architect design and built and erm, the staircase was er more or less centrally in the house rather than be stuck against one wall and so it had a well and down the centre of the well we strung one of these lights with er five different glasses suspended on black flex five black flexes and erm these were shades made of heavy glass er the glass wasn't painted it was coloured all the way through, er and erm they were called er Chelsea, Chelsea glasswork and erm these each had a lamp inside them well  er about three inch diameter cylinders actually about eight inches long and they were hung at different heights er so that the lip behind the staircase and also of course there's a staircase being where it was, it was in the centre of er, a, quite a large hallway for modern stand for modern standards and erm it of course was a feature of the hall as well.
So it became not only erm practical thing but the light fitting became a decorative
Oh yeah, yeah 
Oh very much so 
Do you think that there was a changeover from being practical, I mean can you remember seeing that transition from the very practical shade to the, to, to the light fitting becoming something decorative?
Oh I think that occurred about erm, I mean now the, the trend is for long erm chromium stems you know with lights coming out of all different angles and they are very decorative in a very modern house and that will be 
But do you think that in the fifties already this sort of trend was something 
I don't think so , I think this is 
I think this is more in the sixties really
this is in the sixties 
erm 
seventies, sixties, seventies 
fifties , all I can remember there was an all very stolid erm, people didn't know where they were yet, and erm, it er 
I, I I was so 
it was still in the sixties, they call it the swinging sixties, I mean I didn't see anything swinging in the sixties at all, I didn't think it was swinging, but er and they don't like now the swinging sixties and I think really it was then that er people did er branch out to new ideas.
These Rotaflex ones that you spoke of, were they in the fifties or the early sixties?
Early sixties
Yes
I see 
Oh no in the, in the fifties we were on the erm, the glass bowl fittings, yes 
On the glass bowl fittings 
Yes , yes, do you think that one of the reasons that they, that they became less popular apart from fashion was that, that they, erm wo that, that you had, the way that you cleaned them, that they caught the dust or
Oh no 
Well that , that could be an idea but I think people would put up with that I, I think it was just because they were, then old fashioned.
When you say glass bowl, do you mean like the gold fish bowl?
That was
Like, yes, the gold fish bowl on chains, they're hanging down on chains 
No it, it they hang on three chains er and er
s s some of them
yeah, about that shape sort of thing you see, like that 
Yes, yes , did they have a kind of marbled
Yes, yes all sorts of different things, all 
Oh yes, marbled, painted and all sorts of things on them, yeah 
We used to get them by the, twenty at a time all sorts of, because people just absolutely loved 
So when people first moved in they 
these things
Yes, was it because you think that, they, that's what they had for in the house
Oh yes that's what they remembered, yes, yes 
They would remember from London you see
er and erm, I, I think that er  most people are erm 
Dougal you have made a smell you are a naughty boy
Er, I think most people now are influenced really by what they know at home er, and erm, today, yet that today they're, they're far more er adventurous and they're far more prepared, prepared to erm try out new ideas and see what they like
Mm
although we did notice, I mean, it and this will be during the er sixties anyway that erm, er the various new types of fittings that came out on er several of the London manufacturers were erm stepped up really weren't they you know 
Oh yes, yes 
the adjustable types of fittings and er, and in, it all really led up to what people are going for now in, in their houses, they want spotlights, erm clipped on, screwed on the ceiling, screwed on the walls er 
Eye ball fittings in the ceilings
all this sort of thing you see 
all that sort of thing 
And that's what we're selling more of now than anything else er and I, I think it's quite a good idea really, light up the things that you like in the house, er and erm, not the things you don't like.
Do you think that the idea of a adjustability er you say that they were snapped up, do you think that people actually once they get an adjustable light fitting, do you think that they actually adjust it?
Do you think that they move it around?
Or do you 
Oh I , I would think so
Some do, er the rise and fall type of fitting over a dining table where when you're er, er having dinner you'd have erm it down to about what not more than twelve inches above the table er so that it lit the table but didn't shine in your eyes, erm some people leave it like that all the time, other people having had a meal lift er it up, erm I think the main thing about the, er adjustable fly and fall is that erm, it's there for, as you want it, if you're trying to find a meal you've lost on the floor well then you pull it down to floor level really.
When in, when you had the erm, you put your ceiling lights on
Yes
in the erm living room, or dining lounge, what other light fittings did people buy apart from that, if they did at all?
Oh, usually er for bedrooms er they, they would have erm 
Bedside lights
decorated type of shades, erm usually nowadays in, in plastic but erm 
But I mean in the actual downstairs, in the living room 
Did have table lamps 
Table lamps
Yes, I mean 
Standard lamps?
Oh aye, in the early days, yes, standard 
Not much in the way of floor standards now, erm I don't think there's many floor standards sold nowadays
But I mean in the fifties, sixties 
but, we, oh we used to sell a lot of floor standard 
Oh in the fifties yes, yes, oh yes 
Yes
wooden ones yes, yes, yes 
With large you know
large shades on them
Traditional or again modern?
Er well both, mainly traditional turned wood 
Oh mainly traditional, turned wood of yes
or and then we used to have some gorgeous lamps that er we used to get in Chelsea that it was fasten on the wall and the lamp would come over on the shade, down and completely change, do you remember that?
Oh yes, yes
That sounds like a modern one
Very modern, yes
And those were bought and
Oh very much so, yes, this was in the sixties, sixties, seventies
Can you remember the make of that, like?
Oh blimey we used to go to Chelsea and buy them 
Those, no, no, no I think the one you're thinking of, the brass tube
It was a brass tube
made by the same people who made that one there actually 
that was  then that's  then 
Yes I think it was  that's right, yes
cos it's just got another shade on it 
It came up on the wall like that and had a big wooden block fastened to the wall that block 
That's right, yeah 
so you could pull it up and down and the effects went out the bottom of the tube, the tube came up like that and it came over, and like that and then the shade would be like that and then you could swing it round 
Swing it round 
Yes
Did you , did you get any ideas from the Design Centre about what fittings to buy?
Oh yes we used to go to the Design Centre, yes 
Oh yes we used to go to the Design Centre at Haymarket er and erm, see what they had and see what was going, yes
It sounds as if you were both involved in the shop?
Oh yeah
Yes, yes, yes.
Excuse me I get a Polo Mint
I was going to say shall I make, would you like a cup of coffee?
Now please tell me if I'm keeping you, I know I've been here for a very long time 
No, are you, are you worried about your time because 
That, that they have garages 
Excuse me 
and outside the porches, to light their number up outside their house, erm people don't seem to have erm, really changed their ideas very much, we still sell the same type of fitting to people, er the one that goes over the garage doors, on the corner of the, of the house wall, er lanterns er outside the front door with coloured glass in them er things that have been going for
Come on sweety
forty, fifty years really 
come on 
Do you think that there's a fashion in light fittings, I mean you've noticed the change 
There's a definite fashion of yes, yes, the only thing is, is that people are not erm, er  religious bound by the fashion, they don't, sort of say like well I think we'll have to change our porch light it looks old fashioned compared to the one next door, erm
What about in lounges?
In lounges?
Well again I, I, I think that er, wall lighting is a, is a thing
Now?
er now
Mm
and really always has been, erm, the idea of a centre is, is simply because you consider how much it costs to have a point wired when the house is, is built, er several people nowadays is ha well they buy an old house, they erm, say well we'll take out the centre light and put us in some wall lights instead you see.
But as far as the Harlow Corporation Housing are concerned mostly 
They never put in any wall lights in at all 
Well when you say wall lights do you mean brackets wall brackets?
These, yeah, yeah, yeah 
Yes
yes, we, we put those in there you see
Yes
very soon after we got here, but er the Corporation never put any wall light in houses
did you ever have a desire of er a wall bracket where you didn't have to chase in the flex that it actually ran up from er a socket in the wall?
Oh yes, yes, er we've got one upstairs in one of the bedrooms now.
Did, were they popular?
Erm  I, I can't say that we sold a lot of them I, I, and I haven't seen a lot about at all, er it's a very good idea I mean two, there's mainly two different types, one that was held up by pins which was, was quite good er and erm  and there was another one which was held up by erm a pin which ran, which the flex ran through, a stud rather than a, a pin and er two little black legs on it, was very good.
Can you remember the make of that?
Er, oh that particular one was one of  erm I don't know if they've even got a lighting showroom in London now, er
Do you have any of their old catalogues, have you kept any old catalogues?
Er lighting I think I've got some old lighting catalogues, yes
Because I would be very interested to photograph some of them if I may?
Oh yeah, yeah, mm, mm, mm, mm, yeah, erm, yes I've got quite a lot of catalogues really I 
Do you have any
the trouble is not having enough modern catalogues of, of things that you can actually buy today because when they manufacturer them now they don't erm make catalogues as often as they used to do er, it costs so much money in it  I'd er, I, I think that probably the next trend is going to be in lighting fittings er which will take in er you er, low energy lamps er, at the erm, the new fluorescent lamps er where erm, well there's one in the hall which takes eight watts and it's given us as much light out as a hundred watt lamp, er and 
And it uses less power?
Yes, it uses eight watts against a hundred, well I say probably against seventy five, eight watts instead of seventy five and given us the same amount of light out.
Are people concerned about erm saving on the electricity bill?
I think everybody now 
I mean from the lighting point of view as opposed to things like heating and obviously more expensive consumption.
Er, well certainly erm as far as erm er, obviously as industry's concerned they're extremely worried about it 
But what about in houses?
In houses I don't think that people, er worry much about, about that erm 
Do , do you think they used to in the fifties?
I think they didn't like a lot of bright light in the house in the fifties, er and of course before that and er now that people they've got such good lighting in the offices where they work that they feel that, well they can't bear to poor lighting at home  and yet there are still people who will watch a colour television with er no lights on in the room at all 
Really?
Yes, next do , er which I think is terrible I mean er it's enough to make one
Because it's not necessary any more with er modern televisions is it?
Oh no, no, it's not necessary no, no, we have all these lights on just like this and we 
Yes 
when that's on
well it's not necessary
Yeah
Mm
Oh no, there's no need to have it in the dark, you can see alright with it.
When you spoke about the colour shades
Yes
erm, the coloured pleated shades that came from 
Yes
can you remember the, the colours that they were in?
Oh er, usually pale er, pale pink er again the ever  cream colour which seem to, you could of painted the fifties with cream I think, erm and erm  pale blue, powder blue colour er, they were all pale colours, er pale yellow or an amber colour, they had to be pale otherwise they wouldn't let the light through
Mm
erm, it's only in, in things like the Chelsea glassware er of  where you could really get, really strong colours er because of the thickness of the glass that they used
Mm
er and erm the fact that the colour was in the glass not on the glass.
When people came in to choose a light fitting, how often do you think that they considered what they wanted the light for, or whether they liked, or whether they choose it because they liked the style of the design of the light fitting?
I think that generally they came in because they liked the style erm they, they, usually had er, in their minds what they wanted and because they go round and see all these fittings at night, I mean our shop used to be all the fittings were lit up at night so that you could have a look in, erm it's very confusing I think when you, you've got an awful lot of fittings in, in, in a shop and, and all of them lit, decide which one's gonna to be the best for your house, but I think most of them already had ideas what, what sort of fitting they wanted and of course we used to do a great deal of 
Could you put down 
getting fittings especially for people, it 
I'm gonna put this chair for you because I'm sure you
thank you
Do sit on my
Yes this is better
A little high there
Then I, I er seen fittings in er, in a friend's house or they'd seen them in the erm 
Dougy stop it 
glossy magazines, of course 
Did they ever say to you I don't want a diffused light I want a direct light?
Mm, well, yes then I should put them off it, erm
But I mean did they, did they have specific, erm did they, did they have that kind of idea about the type of light they wanted or
Sugar Dougy, come here 
did they, or did they just like, did they just look at the colour and the shape of it, and the style of it?
Oh I, I think one had to consider erm, I, I'd have to ask them the size of the room, what, what sort of a room it was, er, it was no use getting the fitting which erm was either far too big for the room in it's, in it's physical size
Mm, mm
or perhaps which er wouldn't give up, wouldn't give out enough light
Mm
erm otherwise you'll 
Do you take sugar?
I do yes please
They'll be soon back again 
How much?
One please
Just one?
Yes
It's a very small spoon 
Thank you , that's fine
Have a biscuit or not?
I will thank you.
This'll be very hot I expect
It is
Mm
fairly
and
I'm sorry if Dougy's a
but it's one of his great problems  
No don't worry really I'm used to animals
it's okay
Good 
Erm, it interests me very much how people choose er not only in light fitting, but how you choose furniture and they choose designs generally, because I have a theory that er a lot of people don't consider the practical things, maybe as much as you know like you or me when we're conscience of that sort of thing 
Yes quite, yes 
No, cold , er one example of that is for instance erm an Anglepoise lamp
Yes
a standard Anglepoise lamp er which it's been going for a number of years, you can get it in about six different colours to match different designs of, er put colour into your room, now if somebody was spending a lot of time sitting knitting and has to look at the knitting or has to look at the pattern then er a good strong light which won't get in their eyes but goes straight on to what, whatever they're doing, is by far the best thing for them, er but they say oh I don't like it, it's a bit angular isn't it, erm, modern sort of thing, er but because it's angular it doesn't mean to say it's not gonna fit into the room it's the right thing for it, er for the person doing that work.
Do you think it's because it doesn't look domestic enough maybe it looks a bit industrial or
Yes I think if it had a few 
I think so, mm, mm 
if it had a few twists and curls round it and little things like that and bits of gold plate on it I mean that they'd go for it, but er, because it's made for its purpose and don't want it.
Yes, mm
And yet we always do sell them, er we always have Anglepoise lamps in the shop
I've still got this one, thank you 
Do you want 
We're about the only people in, in Harlow that do sell the Anglepoise lamps
Yes
Yeah, now they've become very erm, there's nothing exciting in the lighting shops in Harlow now, at all.
Do you think that designs in the fifties and sixties that there was more variety?
Oh there was a tremendous variety, but then there were all the same in, erm you look at the er the three light fitting er it hangs down from the ceiling and has three branches out from it and it either has three lights hanging down or three hanging upwards, er with four ordinary bulbs in or candle bulbs in and shades, sometimes they have four, erm, there's still an awful lot of those about and any lighting shop you look in you'll still see plenty of those er and yet they've got a tremendous number of disadvantages, one thing, a lot of them got glass shades, if you break one shade three year's time you might as well throw away the fitting because  you can't get another one  er, and erm  it's a design that doesn't, it doesn't lend itself to giving a good lighting in a room at all er, it they, they harsh glassware, the edges of the glass during all round the room and that sort of thing
Mm
doesn't help  I think that 
erm plastic erm, er the new plastics erm always give much more scope to lighting fittings, erm than the, the glass in the past but erm 
Well erm from, from my observation of catalogues and I was just looking through  the other day, lighting doesn't alter very much, there's nothing very impressive in any of the catalogues really
No but on the other hand you can look back and you can see all the things that have gone, I mean the  for instance which er 
Oh yeah , mm
somebody bought in large quantities er in Finland and started making up in a factory in Harlow erm, at one time, erm, they're all a bit 
I think that period was nice
Yes a lot of those about er, and, erm also the Rotaflex shades
Mm
er
Mm
and erm, a lot of the  types of fittings and single pendants with heavy coloured glasses on and things like that
Mm, I liked those
they were, they were all, all going, people had them, but er you don't see them nowadays 
No, it's gone quiet do you
Mm
know there doesn't seem to be any er great enthusiasm for new designs at the moment.
Do you think that the spotlights have
Yes I think so 
taken over?
Oh yeah, yeah 
The modern part of the 
yeah people have seen them at the discos and, will do, and er even, even those that gives patterns or designs people are buying, have in the house now instead of watching television, sit and watch the pattern on the wall er, but erm
Oh no
Oh yes they're, they're old, they're going down as well, yes, mm
I couldn't bear it
No, but er, I don't know people, it's, it's where people get their ideas from I think for a start, I know one time we used to sell oh a lot of erm spotlights and spotlamps, but only to people who were running discos, er now erm there are people who erm, well they, they want a, a couple in the lounge or something like that or, and er, and then of course they, there's others who erm have them outside and light up their trees, at night.
Well a lot of people now, a lot, I mean I've known several, they put er lamps underneath plants to make, it's very effective that 
Mm 
I like it
Mm if you have some nice 
if it's got a nice 
autumn weather of course Rosie
it can sit outside and
No, I mean them indoor, indoor plants David
Oh indoor plants, oh
Yeah
mm, mm, yes.
Could you tell me a little bit about when you first moved to Harlow, because it interests me very much the fact, I didn't, I wasn't aware that you lived in a, house that was 
Well I came 
built by the Corporation
Mm, I came to Harlow with my parents, when my husband was in the Air Force
During the war?
Mm and we moved from Sussex, here 
The last one of course 
Pardon?
The last one
The last one, yes 
The last one , not the great one 
and er, it was bad enough the, the last one, erm, and I started with the Corporation when they opened at Turlings in that, that was in nineteen forty eight 
Oh yes well I mean, I, I, I came back from the war 
Aye, so 
of course erm then we were living with your parents weren't we?
my husband and yes, just a minute , my husband arrived home from the war in nineteen forty eight I think it was or was it nineteen forty seven?
Good lord no, it was nineteen forty six ,a er March nineteen forty six
Mm, beg your pardon
the war ended in forty five you know
Yeah forty six 
I thought that was bad enough having to stay another year
Anyway, forty six and then we had no house, at all, because my mother had died and my father, we said to my father you leave if you want to we should be alright we'll find somewhere to go and we didn't and we had to have a Nissan hut for about a year, supplied by the Council 
It was accommodated by the soldiers before wasn't it?
which had been occupied by soldiers, this was our first hut, well by then I was working for the Corporation and of course by virtue of my job with the chief architect I got this house and we were offered this house about two years later for two thousand pounds and we said oh we wouldn't be staying here for more than ten years in any case and we wouldn't be bothered to buy it, but then my husband started in business you see soon after he came back and we eventually got the shop and, of course it's very convenient because we're only a stone's throw from the shop you see, so we stayed here
You say it was 
and eventually we bought it
And this was the first group of houses
This was the first of development of houses 
First of the houses 
first of the houses that the Corporation built 
Yeah there were , there were a hundred here actually, there's now a hundred and fourteen 
What year were they completed?
Er
Forty nine?
well this, no, fifty one, er this was the last house to be completed on this estate because it had been used as a paint store and we were the very last people 
Apart from those on the far side of the road which were built several years later on on another complex 
Oh yes later, yes that's true, yes 
Out of the original hundred houses this was the last one to be occupied and we saw this being built, erm right from the time that it was a plot of land and we knew it was ours 
Brick by brick, we knew it was ours 
er from, from the footings in other words so I was
from that, it was quite interesting really
And hundreds of people, architects, all this development here, this hundred houses were mainly architects or engineers from the Corporation
Who?
Who?
who lived in these house plus I should think about
Million workers
ten per cent of building workers and er about five per cent of British hired mechanic staff.
It was a mixed development?
It was a mixed development with very much the emphasis on Corporation staff at that time er and of course they had to house the, got house 
But they had to house you didn't they?
the staff somewhere and we, we came in here and of course most of the people eventually had families and er they moved out to bigger accommodation as their families grew up, you know, er, we were very pleased to get the house of course because we'd  we'd lived in this Nissan hut for er either one or two years but it did 
Don't know very difficult to tell the time now how er, how long these things were
Not er
but er, I know it was forty six that I er came back 
Came back 
because that was the year that I, I actually started the business because erm
That's right, mm
in er, we had a cutting somewhere Marie, oh I know when we became a limited company, er that's right and er we put in erm formally erm  er  take over the business 
Patent 
run by 
That's right
er since nineteen forty six or something I don't know the date exactly 
That's right, mm quite, mm 
and er that's how I remember it by except for of course the war ended in nineteen forty five but weren't 
But when we 
we weren't the first to come back or anything
You're interested in the furniture side of it?
Yes I am
Well when we came here of course we had certain furniture and we just sort of er, er and we, I don't know what other people did, we just erm furnished a room at a time until we got  
We furnished two rooms when we got in 
We furnished two rooms when we came in here 
that was the one bedroom and er and it was this room some what 
and er, we never have had any hire purchase arrangements 
Yeah 
but I rather gather large people would get everything you see 
Yes exactly 
but we didn't you see, we didn't, we just got things as we went on and of course in those days, it was, what was it called?
Erm tt furniture er
Furniture that what it were called
you know, erm, mm
What the manufacturer?
No, no the erm tt deary me
The hire purchase?
No, erm, that the in the war time the soldiers
Utility
Utility furniture, I couldn't think of the word
Did you have utility furniture?
No we didn't because I had bought various things, I like antiques so does my husband, I'd bought various things while he was away in this erm, the card table and er, I had a new place of stuff, er but since we've been, but we had odd chairs didn't we?
Er
Oh yeah
but all of which are gone and we've replaced them with these since many, you know, quite a few years ago, er we bought one utility suite from an engineer who was going to Rhodesia and that's in our second bedroom still  it's, well the bed is but the 
The bedroom suite?
The bedroom suite, yes, the bed's still there, but er, we changed the erm dressing table and the rest of it 
I think there's only , there's only the bed there left now
there's only the bed there left 
Oh yeah cos we've, we've erm, apart from the antiques we've, we've refurnished everything er at least once since we've had it
Just once, yes
and yes, er our bedroom of course is
Refurnished
completely refurnished, er
and the dining room's refurnished
You have a dining room?
yes you can have a look, it'll be interesting for you 
I would be, yes 
in seeing this house, because it's, well we think it's rather nice er, you know it's quite a 
It's got a good long garden with this as well 
It's got a long garden 
more than sixty feet long and erm over the last two or three years er I've made a patio at the bottom, right the whole width of the garden
Mm
and er eighteen feet wide so that you can get a dozen down there seated if necessary, you know, yeah
Really?
looking very pleasant 
Right I think so, I'll check it again in a minute just to make sure.
It's a complicated piece of apparatus
Well  the last time I came you told me
Well we got married in nineteen forty one and I lived first of all in Sussex where erm my mother was living because my husband went into the Air Force and he was erm away for five years, well we had a lot of bombing in the early part of the war in Sussex and my father eventually came here to Harlow thinking we were getting away from it and of course we came right into the V er what was it?
What was it called?
The V bomb, V bombers and the doodlebugs and er when he came home it was nineteen forty six I think or seven er, my fath er my mother had died and my father wanted to get away from the place we were in and we said oh well go ahead you know, we'll easily get somewhere and of course we didn't and they put us in a Nissan hut, which we made absolutely beautiful, we did all sorts of things to it and had a lovely garden all around it and the people from the Council use to come around and say to us oh well you don't need to be rehoused because you've made this so very nice you see, anyway I then started to work for the Corporation and then there was the possibility of course 
of me getting a house.
Could I ask you to go back and ask you to describe what the Nissan hut was like, what kind of a accommodation did you have in it?
What, well, we had a very large sitting dining room where we put er our dining room furniture at one end and as, the sitting room furniture at the other, it was very large actually, a Nissan hut doesn't look very big, but it is quite big  and we had one large bedroom where we got all our furniture in there and then there was er a kitchen, and there was an Elsan lavatory in the garden which er you had to go outside for that, and er, we bought a full length galvanized bath like an ordinary bath upstairs and there was a boiler in the kitchen so we used to light the fire of the boiler, fill the boiler with water from the tap, we had a, oh we had all sorts of er innovations that made life easy as could be in the circumstances, we had er hose pipe from the kitchen sink into the bathroom, we managed to get about three baths a week, cos it, it was a terrible fag, but we did, and then you just emptied the bath out and out in the drain outside you know.
So you had to pick it up and carry it outside?
Well we had to drag it and
Yes
till we got to near the den and do that and we spent er a year and a half there and all the time we were watching this house being built, because I was working at the Corporation and the number of people of the Corporation from the tea boy cadet down came up to see this, this and that, was nobody's business, mm, without, we enjoyed it, it was quite funny really it is 
Were there many Nissan huts in, in the same 
Yes there were , there were about ten I think, but they were all widely separated, we all had a lot of ground around us, so,s so you weren't on top of your next door neighbour, you didn't, you hardly see them, or hear them really, there was plenty of room.
And apart from the garden that you said that you made it lovely while you were there, what other things did you do to make it look like a home?
Well for instance a lot of people didn't even bother to erm make the kitchen floor into anything reasonable, but we did, we, we got some very good, very heavy
and put it down, it, on the kitchen floor of this place, and in the, our sitting room we had a carpet it was er a carpet of David's mother's actually, but it covered the entire sitting room and it looked rather nice you know, because it was a big room and we also had a carpet of sorts in the bedroom.
And did you buy new furniture when you 
Oh no , no I'd, I had a new case of furniture, I had some of this furniture there.
Antique furniture?
Antique furniture, yes, erm, because I'd bought that during the war in various antique places, you know, and erm, what did we buy, no I think my father gave us the bedroom furniture was, which was at the
at the time and we took that with us, which was an old fashioned, a really old Victorian suite which we got rid of when we moved into this house.
So you didn't buy any utility furniture?
So we didn't buy very, little utility furniture, the only utility furniture we've got is, it used to be a bedroom suite up in that second bedroom, we've still got the bed of that, that was utility, but had we been in the market we would of bought utility because it was very good, some of it was really good if you looked around and erm, you know, choose your furniture, it was very good 
Could you tell me a bit more about that, because I don't know anything at all about utility furniture 
About utility furniture , well you know the G Plans that now that there is, well this utility furniture to my mind if you choose really good makes of your utility furniture it was rather, after the style I would say G Plan, that was I've always imagined it were, it was good quality of, of a price that people could afford, if you got the right erm, type of stuff.
So there was a difference in quality between one make 
I would think so, yes I think, I would think so because the bedroom suite, the bed upstairs er of that er suite is quite a good quality bed, you know, it's only a spring mattress of course it's not a, it's not a box thing like we'd have today, I mean, what we have in our other room, I've always intended to change it, but never got round to it, but it er just had a spring mattress, but it was good quality of its time
Mm
er, and I would think, well like any furniture now wherever you go you can buy the most atrocious furniture can't you?
And pay terrific amount of money for it
Mm
and you can buy something, well which would appeal to me, anyway, er for not very much more if you look around.
I rather like a lot of the G Plan stuff I like very much.
But there wasn't very much choice in the styles was there?
Oh no, no there was, erm  it was very utilitarian, very er, were I should think plan would use the I, I don't think er, I can't remember a great deal about utility furniture apart from the fact that we have just this one bedroom suite, but remembering back to the, er we had the bed and the chest, the chest was very plain and very nice, very nice
And you don't still have it?
I don't still have it, no, no it had got knocked about a bit, you know, being moved hither and thither and the other people have had it a bit as well as us, because we bought it from the people who lived next door when they left you see, cos when we started in here, we didn't have any carpets on these floors or under here it's brown Marley tiling  and I can still show you that
Oh yes
brown tiles and it was brown tiles all in that room and of course we couldn't, we had started a business and all the money had gone into the business and we couldn't afford to, to start carpeting, it was impossible, so, but that room really looked superb I think, I had huge rugs, you know, one in front of the fireplace and another one this end and the other end in colour, in colours, and there really, it really looked nice and the floor was polished up to the nines, you know, er right through here all polished all the same colour
And you moved into the house in nineteen fifty
Nineteen fifty one, we moved in, er and, I've had, you're not the first person to come all round here, this house, they used, they used to come round in shows from the Corporation all visitors used to come, they used to say, right Jean can we bring them round  we've had people from Germany  and everywhere and being in the architect's department I fell for all this  you know I had  
This is all very much in the early days 
Yes, right in the early days.
So you worked with the Corporation
From nineteen forty eight
until nineteen fifty two?
Yes, and during that time they used to have a lot of people visiting from overseas
And Chipping Field was rather like a, like a sort of prototype for Harlow New Town.
Well it was the first hundred houses that were built in the New Town and it housed a lot of building trade workers, a lot of engineers and a lot of archi well a lot, a few architects and a few engineers and the rest were building trade workers or of some sort or another, and a few British Hydro
Research Association been put down on this
So mostly people involved with
Most the people who were involved with getting the town together, from the beginning
Mm.
you know, right from the beginning.
And how did you feel about moving from the Nissan hut into a brand new house?
Oh absolutely marvellous we watched the house go up brick by brick, you know, we, we used to come down here and think oh my goodness won't it be marvellous to be able to run some water and have a bath in the  normal way you know  cos we don't, we'd both always had electricity and baths and everything else until this happened and erm, we er, oh it was wonderful, really wonderful  absolutely marvellous
And how did you feel about the New Town being born?
Oh well we had no feelings about it because I really wasn't an Old Harlow person, nor was my husband and all that we could think about it was that it would be very good for the area, it would erm, bring work and employment and everything like that, but of course Old Harlow people were very, you know, a lot of them were very against it and yet, in the end, the Harlow High Street shops was, made a fortune in those first few years, you know, when there was nothing else and the, the Old Harlow High Street wasn't of course paved over in those days, anything like that and it, it was a narrow, narrow high street, it was almost like taking your life in your hands walking down there because there were crowds of people obviously with all this influx of community and they er  the main Chelmsford road used to come up through there, so it was a, a hell, sort of a traffic hazard really.
And how did you feel about the sudden influx of a lot of people and?
Well, I didn't mind it was quite interesting, for one thing erm  we were sort of off the beaten track here and although we're in the town you might say, we're out of it, we're in the country aren't we?
You see 
But don't you think that gen that Harlow generally has that feeling?
Well it does here, I don't know er, I wouldn't say in some of the parts of Harlow I would get that feeling, but then I am really a country person at heart and I don't like towns anyway, so I'm not really the best person to ask, no.
Could we go back and perhaps you tell me, erm what it felt like, for example cooking a meal or doing the washing in a Nissan hut and the difference of when you came in to to Chipping Field 
Well the difference was like moving from purgatory into heaven really, because er  in the Nissan hut I had one tap of cold water, that's all, every bit of water had to be heated on a gas stove, and every bit of water for a bath had to be heated in an old fashioned er boiler in which you lit the fire under  and of course when you came here we had a ni an electric cooker, er straight away 
Was it a new one?
Yes I had a brand new electric cooker, that was one of our buys, I didn't have a washing machine when we got here, but I had a wash boiler, an ordinary wash boiler.
Did you have a refrigerator?
Yes I did have a refriger I had, we bought a refrigerator and er a cooker and it sat in that recess there, that was our big buy when we first came, er we had a bedroom suite when we came here and we had sufficient furniture to, to erm furnish the sitting room and we had er a suite of furniture in here erm
Was it this one?
No, an oak table and an oak sideboard and that was all and just four chairs or six chairs I think it was, yes, er and it was erm that furniture was a utility, er I'd forgotten about that, it's taken me back now, that was a utility dining room suite of really first class quality, it was a tallish sideboard with two doors with big bow legs and a square table, erm, but it was solid oak really good
Can you remember the make?
Ooh no I can't, I can remember where we bought it, we bought it in Hillsham and we paid about two hundred pounds for it, I know, erm, what was I saying?
Sorry I interrupted you.
Er, I can't remember what I said, oh  no it's gone
Oh
It was a joy to be able to go and have a bath every night  you know  to just run the water and find it came out hot, it was absolutely marvellous 
How was the water heated, by a boiler?
No, by an immersion heater, yeah
Electric?
Electric immersion heater, er, ah, oh of course we had an Ideal boiler under there and it, that's what heated this kitchen actually an Ideal boiler and it heated the water in the winter and also heated the, and in the summer we let that out and had an immersion heater, well being in the electrical trade we had an immersion heater all the time and if we wanted to top up from the boiler we used to just put the immersion heater on for a erm week or so and get hot water and then let it go off in the winter time, you know, but er  we haven't made a great deal of alteration to this place really, we've put a new front door on fairly recently, that was one of the things that er was very ugly, they, the back of the front of the doors to look at, ooh they were ugly doors
Where they metal
Er
frame?
erm
Were they glazed?
They were glazed with ribbed glass, you could see quite a lot of them on Chipping Field, still, er and nearly everyone who's bought their houses have altered the doors, but a lot of people have put these wooden doors in you know
Yes
filled in and that, and they look completely out of er they don't look part of the house to me
Yes
I don't know whether it's er me or whether it's er
Talking about front doors I've noticed that a lot of the houses have got two doors on the front side
Yes 
one which is the front door and
that's the front door and that's the back door, through there
Yes, do you have one as well?
Yes
Yes, how did you feel about that when you first came to live here?
Er, well having, no did, didn't worry me at all 
Because a lot of people of, were very disturbed about having two doors on the, on the front, they felt that one should be on the back by the side 
By the side you can't with a terrace, can you really, yeah, I think any terrace, surely would have two doors on the front, wouldn't it?
If they have two doors it's not 
If they have two doors, yes
Could, the furniture that's right er was there 
was one 
was there any furniture that you could buy which wasn't rationed?
Well yes you could go to antique shops and buy that sort of furniture 
Yes , but you couldn't buy all new?
secondhand no, no, no new furniture 
No new furniture?
no, it was rationed, and er, talking about erm people's taste having changed, I think the media has a great deal to do with that because when you look at things on television you can see how  people
Yes
do things, can't you?
Mm
You can see furniture, you can see old houses, Arthur Neagus going round all these old houses, you can see a lot of things now, that the normal public never would see in the, the ordinary man in the street probably never saw them at one time, but I think this must of made a difference to people.
What do you think influenced you, I mean if you went to choose a chair did you sit on it to see if it was comfortable or were you more interested in what it looked like?
Oh no I think I'd want it to be comfortable, but I'd also want it to look well what I considered to be nice.
Do you think that the sizes of the rooms that people considered the sizes of the rooms when they choose furniture?
I don't know
It's difficult
I don't know about that, it's difficult
Mm
very difficult
bottom cupboards and the rest of it, therefore I wanted that and I wanted this
Would you call this a dresser?
No it's a desk actually 
Because it's 
because it's got a desk, it's desk and er, we keep it, er this comes down as a desk, you can write on there 
Yes 
and erm the rest is just cupboards for glasses and cutlery and my hu husband's inevitable lots and lots of papers that he has everywhere 
Mm, do you think that it's important to have a sideboard as a piece of furniture, because a dining room isn't a dining room without a sideboard or?
No, no, that wouldn't worry me, I just, I said when we got rid of our other sideboard let's do without one and then I looked round and thought well what the dickens am I going to do with all this stuff that we've got and I just found that we couldn't do without it.
Mm, so
We had to take the door off there, there used to be a door on there, but to get this long sideboard in we had to take the door off
Really?
otherwise the door took up so much room, you see.
A lot of things that I'd still do here if, if I could whip up some enthusiasm  if my husband would, I can't  , he was a bricklayer, sub contractor and they have knocked this kitchen out about three times since they've been there, and the last, this last effort, I think they've put imitation beams in, I haven't seen it, but we think they have and er, oh it's, you wouldn't know it's the same house at all, you wouldn't know it
Mm
He was and because he was getting on in years and er didn't get out as much as usual, my husband said we'd get a television for him and we had a black and white television
Would you remember what year that was?
Oh, dear he's been dead, ten  it must of been the ten, this is eighty two, seventy two, about sixty five I should think about sixty five 
So it was long, long after most people in Harlow
A long, long after most people had televisions here
Especially in Harlow?
in Har oh everybody had television before us
Mm, mm
the same way is, now is everybody is rushing out buying videos
Yes
how on earth they can afford it I just don't know  it's ridiculous 
And when you came to find a place to put the television in your living room
Yes
or do you call this living room?
We call this the sitting room
The sitting room 
Yes , yes
did you have difficulty finding where to place it?
Er, well no, it's always been in the place it's in now
Next to the fireplace
next to the fire place, er a lot of people have put it up in this corner and, but 
Near the window
near the window, but we decided that that's where we wanted it, it suited us and that's where we put it.
It never has moved from there because our two chairs and it's normally only two of us watching it, cos if we've got visitors we never have it on, you know, er they just face that way and it's convenient and that's where we put it.
Do you feel that it competes with the fireplace as a focal point in the room?
No, no
So it's a double focal point
Yes, yes, it doesn't compete with the fireplace, we have a, a, er mock fire in there you know, normally in the winter that, that's on and it looks, it's very realistic, it almost looks as if it is a fire glowing all the time cos there's a rotary spinner in it and it flickers, er, and er the room is very warm because it's central heated anyway and, no I wouldn't say, it never bothers me the television, I don't suppose that er, if I were left on my own I'd hardly have it left on  you know  I think men watch television more than women.
And do you think that the, the room wouldn't be the same without the fireplace, without the glowing red, even though it's very warm with the central heating, you still need 
Oh yes I think , I think you need a focal point, I think, I'd find it rather difficult without a fireplace at all.
So really it, the, the fireplace is more of a focal point than would the 
I would say 
television?
Oh yes, yes I would say that yes, and of course that fireplace is the original fireplace, and it's very nice isn't it don't you think?
It's very nice
Mm lovely
and the erm, when you moved in obviously you had to use it
Oh yes we had coal fires
Yes
yes
What kind of coal, fuel did you use?
Well we used erm, a smokeless fuel of which we found very good, I forget what it was, er
Was it rationed?
It was like Coalite, er when we first came here, oh yes it was, yes, but we have electric fires of course as well to, what we did because we were both out working all the time, we had electric fires and I think my husband, husband had them allied to a timeswitch and they came on before we came in, an hour or so, before we came in this room and in that room
That was a modern, that was an innovation 
Yes, yes, that was an innovation
Yes
I mean we did a lot of things that other people probably didn't do, I always remember next door to us at one time the curate of the St Mary's church, er, who is er, he is now Bishop of  mm, gosh, he's a up in Nottingham way, Bishop of something or other, we met him at a, at a do not so very long ago and he's just the same, he's marvellous and he was the curate and they were as poor as church mice and er in relation to them we were really well off you know, and er they had hardly any fires or anything and we gave them an electric fire to heat their place up and er  when we met him, it was last February at a, a do of one of the research engineers from where I was work working the last job I had and er, he said I've still got the electric fire 
And that would of been what in the fifties?
That would of been in the fifties 
Yes, yeah 
early fifties
Yes
fifty fiveish
Yes
yes, certainly is.

Right as far as I'm concerned we've completed the first four points on the agenda right.
Yeah?
Point five is under your name  what's that all about?
Right well just that er it's been resolved a bit since I handled it cos er got this meeting set up which I don't know whether, whether you need to come, it's on the second of February
Yeah
And we're going to discuss er the likes of  and   and myself and Stuart  er how we're gonna allocate the national accounts and who's gonna do what and just clarify
What what what accounts and whose portfolio?
Yeah  
Are you asking me whether I wanna be in there?
I was just mentioning it to you in case you wanted to 
Don't wanna.
No, you can sort it out between yourselves can't you?
Yeah, so that was that.
I just wanted to actually sort of mention it to  so that he knows cos he's obviously invited to come if he wants to 
I don't think there's going to be any dramatic changes 
Well he should be there if you're there he should be there
Yeah exactly 
Well just tell him to be there
Yeah, okay
You,,,, and , yeah?
Yeah and  new people if they're on board 
They won't be there by the second
No way
So that was just that one er  nineteen ninety-three
So is that is that point five gone is it, yeah?
Yeah, only because it's  
Well you do have clearly define it you don't want yourself  
Got er got an agenda here
The key issue is really the multiples isn't it?
Yeah
About how far down we go and how far up  mob goes 
done this agenda where she wants where we need to discuss allocation of non-national accounts, national accounts, regional accounts, special offers, plans for nineteen ninety 
I think that one of the most confusing aspects is this word corporates, what's a national account corporate, what's a national account 
I went in to two corporates yesterday er  and erm  who are a massive potential for us, right in where we need to be
I actually put a deal forward to 
Well I didn't yeah well we may have done 
We agreed didn't we , no we agreed, I thought we agreed that where
that head office was in
no where erm the multiple concern who looked after that business, where their national account department looked after that corporate we would look after it and where their key account department looked after it you would look after it and  is a national account for  for erm 
I remember that at one of the meetings, yeah
is it?
Yeah, so erm
The sales rep shouldn't have called on   because that's, that's a 
That's easy to say Gary but where's the memos, where's the lists that tell people these things?
This is the grey area, we didn't call on the company  we called on the implants and I hope we haven't done any damage, but what we have done and what the p 
And these things move from time to time as well of course 
Yeah I know but nothing's happened since that time to change what we originally agreed
Yeah but I mean I don't clearly remember an agreement like that meself and  does
I'm sure that was agreed at one of our meetings
Well  might do but I think it needs to be put in writing you know like who's is who's what you know
Well we can start off with the top one hundred companies and allocate them like that if you want, if it makes things easier rather 
depends on where the head office is doesn't it?
Well no the top one hundred companies isn't a guide to anything at all.
What you mean top one hundred F T S E companies you mean?
half of them don't even travel
No I know but it can be a springboard
Well the best guide is the one that's in the Travel Weekly that mag er
Yeah but that' that's but half of them don't travel
Oh you mean the Business Travel World magazine
Yes that has  
Yeah that's useful No I think I think er it should be a national corporate account, the definition of a national corporate account it one that is multi-locational throughout the country
Yes, exactly yeah
That's the only definition and worth over x million pound or whatever total revenue or whatever their threshold is
It's not throughout the length and breadth of the country it's only in my patch
I agree, I agree
The other grey area which 
cos in point cos that's only in your area innit 
Yeah as far as I know
unclear
No, no, because  passed it over to us  that's why I had to go and see the guy if you remember
Yeah well Mar was un got, got the impression perhaps wrongly now that it was a national account by virtue of where the allocations were
Well can we make it a clear definition please because national means, national in terms of agents and corporates means multi-locational and all represented 
is multi-locational doesn't just have one branch
Yeah but it only has Norwich and it has Dagenham doesn't, that's it isn't it?
Yeah those are the two big ones
Well that falls in  region so it's a regional account in my respect
Yeah but it's dealt with by the national account department back in 
Bollocks to  I don't care less about  
This is where the grey areas comes in
Well I mean I don't care how they define their, their descriptions.
We have to define ours separately
No we said that's how we were going to define us, erm define it, I distinctly remember that being said it would be defined
Yes but 
Things may change now but we've working on that basis
We can't, we can't be driven by the definition that they work
No but that's what we agreed before
Well if we did  
unclear 
No I thought we agreed
I don't remember that I've never seen it on any minutes
I'm gonna pull out the minutes cos we did have a meeting, we had a meeting at which  was present and that's how we defined it 
Oh well it was not a meeting that I was at then
No well you said you don't want to be involved in the meetings anyway
Well I wasn't there either was I?
Well that's true, but what I'm saying now is regar I think national is national  it's it's multi-locational and it across boundaries right  If it's confined within the southern region therefore it's .
If it's even lower than that it's local and it's  area 
I'm not sure No I'm not sure I agree with that because I mean  area goes right up to Birmingham from the south and it be made multi-regional, multi-locational accounts within Southern England and London which are big accounts
What happens if we get one of the national agencies who's located in the opposite part to where the majority of the erm the business from the multi-location commercial account is?
There's no point my people working  
a certain part of  I beg your pardon  sorry I'm getting my definitions wrong  may be looking after something which the erm corporate locations are solely within the south but it's handled by an  corporate account.
Now surely that comes under  or through
No, it doesn't matter what the travel agent is when you're talking to the corporate
The basis of our decision before was my people work very closely say take  with the national account people in  right, and the main objective there is to get as much business from the corporate accounts as they're responsible for like  or whoever.
If they're split, you can't have people from the field going into  dealing with national account managers when my people are also dealing with them.
That's the basis  
That's what's caused the grey area
Yeah, that's not, that's where it's changed
Well that is actually a problem from you know
Cos you got 
Well the national account what you are saying is the national account  if the work's for  is then responsible for all those accounts that happen to be from the national account manager.
That's what, that's what I thought we agreed
Well no I thought we agreed that if it was in the southern boundaries, the locations it doesn't matter what  were
You can have that Frank, you can't have several different sales reps going into  seeing different people and my people seeing them as well.
You need one central point for each of the multiples
Yeah well this is what's not, I mean we don't know who who those accounts are that you're dealing with where that's the situation
Well you c I can get a list of all the corporate accounts that  and  have and we can go through them one by one
Yeah
We can't have people crossing over
main problem at the moment is that they want one person to deal, cos at the moment we've got us dealing with  national account and we've got  dealing with the regional account managers and sales execs dealing with the individual branches and I think things are getting lost as it goes from one to the other
It's a question of whether we adapt to their structure or or we have our own structure
mm
Isn't it, that's the question
The other area was er the area of er tour operators and allocations because as you know  holidays was not one of your accounts and we wandered in there only to find that they'd got allocations and business was 
Yeah, the reason that happened was that there was no-one servicing  holidays erm and they came to us for an allocation and and we gave it to them.
Had somebody been in there to see they would've spoken to them
Well no I mean
It's  account isn't it?
There was no-one covering that area
Well 
Yeah, if if there's no-one covering that area then I have to make arrangements for that to be covered which I I will do and that will be .
I don't think
Well it seems like we've got the wires crossed in one or two areas
I think the problem's been is the problem's been is that we don't want to let any business go
and if it comes to us we take it on board means we'll be short of people
which is not a bad thing
yeah well quite
I'm not trying to cast any blame here but  handed over allocations on Innsbruck to  at one time yeah and left us to carry the ball cos she sort of withdrew at one time
Yes well I understand so  on board 
Well er just hang on a minute I think
that's what she 
You've got a meeting for the second have you?
Well can you sort that out amongst yourself and then after you've done that then present it to the February sales meeting as to what you've done so everybody knows
mm
Yeah?
Not least the girls in the office
Yeah so it's absolutely clear even if it's a precis I think it'll be  
Cos you're right cos we don't want to get people trampling on each other.
I think we're actually getting in each other 's way  for the right reasons rather than the wrong reasons, like  just said and it's not a question of somebody else trampling on others er cos I've heard this sporadically for some time.
People walking in but we need to need to clearly define the areas and if it's that the national account department at  has this list of corporate clients then maybe it makes sense that the national account manager responsible for  deals with those also
Yeah
to avoid repetition
you see we have to be a bit careful because what happens if we closed  down right and transferred out to the field
And then we have to change our structure 
Then we have to change again and that's what you're saying we have to be a chameleon
Oh yeah, we'd have to adapt to the situation we find ourselves with
Yeah cos they have, they have a tendency to do that sort of thing you see  they're changing all the time 
We don't know what they'll do so  
Well I don't see , I don't know why we're, we're trying  to 
No what I'm saying is the logistics, the logistics of servicing  with a field of national account departments is going to be a potential nightmare
But I don't think that means we have to adjust our sales structure to them it may mean that we have to look at theirs and decide who's gonna deal with what, but th but we don't have to gear all our structure  
Yeah well 
No but the national accounts department is set up to deal with the head offices of of the key multiples and national accounts.
You take  and their equivalents away from my people we're redundant and you might as well take it all over Britain.
No, no that's not quite true
Well it is.
I mean 
for the national account person  
Well , I'm not saying
Not necessarily, Peterborough should be the core
Yeah, well that's my job Peterborough really because that's really just just the review every quarter.
The core of the business and the business development is at  and that's the main problems we've been having with  because  not co-operating
Well maybe, maybe it's because the person that's been dealing with  is not sufficiently au fait with Peterborough
Peterborough's got no control over  this is this is the problem
Well it has, but but the level that we're pitching at hasn't  the level at which
It comes into  yeah
Well if we were into  or into  or  then it might not be a problem
Yeah well  
That's where it em , that's where it emanates from isn't it?
Can't think for one minutes if  for instance was interested in a deal with  that he, that er that he wouldn't, only just to have flick his fingers  and  would crap themselves
Well they don't really know  
Well  getting into another issue
Yeah I know we are but
Yeah but I mean that's the way it's meant to work.
That's the theoretical version of it.
Most airlines I'm told by the multiples have one person who look after that camp and they go down from erm regional, regional level to regional sales manager.
Now you  
Don't do that but then again they're slightly different I suppose 
somebody almost exclusively for 
national account manager who's specifically looks after  and then go and see  on a regular basis but call on them but invariably the accounts that those account managers deal with at  erm will be split all round the country and will be controlled by our local sales executives in those areas 
Yeah I would've thought it was the job of the national account executive  or whoever it may be to go there do the business, find out what's what and apportion that out to wherever it's most appropriate either to the field sales or or to whatever, because
It's, it's a peculiar situation  
That would avoid a multitude of  following people in one after the other
Well what we don't want is
What  and I used to do
There's people that
used to meet there and go in and see them
Yeah, crossing over 
We used to go see   
Well why don't , well why don't, why don't, why don't
Well you see that  complaint is that  and myself are not actively seeing these regional managers, they believe that we should see them
Well if if if if  had their way they'd have  in all their branches you know, I mean, you know that's
Yeah, but I'm looking at how we're gonna  this deal through next year because   
Well that's, well that's 
perhaps we shall
Well you know I agree with ya and I think I think
Yes we need to, if we're gonna do a deal.
If we're gonna do a deal then we, we, we have some  to drive it through but what I'm saying is that I think that if you have this meeting I, which is what February the second?
mm
then you argue the toss amongst yourselves really, but you've got, you have to
well we are thin on the ground and limited resources so we don't want doubling up, that's what we don't want, doubling up, but I don't, I don't
I don't think we should mirror  just for the
No but we have to look at what, what's a workable solution
Yeah, well okay then we'll do it at that meeting and work it out then right?
Yeah?
Right then well I think that's the easiest otherwise we gonna waste a lot of time 
It must be in your tray  cos I've only just got that today.
Well do you want me to be at that meeting then?
Well let us explore it first and see what the issues are and then if there's any dispute then, then you can call another meeting at the February sales meeting we can discuss it
Well alright we'll do that that way 
Cos you don't need to get into the argy bargy
Yeah but I'm not erm .
I don't want to get into any argy bargy about anything particularly 
We'll see if we can come to a solution 
Well, yes you gotta, you gotta see the other person's point of view, you gotta understand the structure.
I mean  for instance is a national account at   do any business with us, do they?
Yeah, but we wouldn't target that account would we?
Well you see,tha that's one element of it, right let me think of another one then er
You can't, take your point  which we've been trying to tackle at national account level
Well  is another one
Well we've been targeting  as well 
Well that, I've already  has already done a deal with 
I know he has but that's one we're working on
He's done with   has he?
Yeah, Aberdeen, in Aberdeen
Yeah it's a national account
Well you see this is where 
basically the criteria is what is the most, how is it most sensibly dealt with, right, cos you don't want a  or somebody like that rushing all over the bleeding country going to Aberdeen one minute, Edinburgh the next 
No, but she's does work with .
I mean the  one is a classic one when she knew it was Scottish based that she passed any correspondence on to 
Maybe that's, maybe that's, that's the, that's the system
I just think it's important that say at  they have one reference point
Well yes.
They have one reference point and just that, but if it's related to an account then
I only go for tendering of accounts  like B T for example 
Well B T  is a national account
Well you could argue it is in  area because  
No, no it's not because B T all over the country isn't it
one agency point
No it isn't
Every single thing's through the one place now for B T. The lot
Every, every single B T thing goes to the one location now
Wasn't there a case when it was  right?
That's not the point  the point is that er it doesn't matter which agency it goes through it, their multi-locational site, so that's why it's a national account.
It's not just in my area  they're all over the place in Scotland as well, so  
Yeah, we need to talk about this, because I mean when I saw  he was upset by the treatment he got from  I presume it was before, the way she dealt with him erm and he believed you know, he was big enough to be dealt with by the national accounts department.
Yeah, but you know he's an old, I mean you know the guy he's quite an old, old fart basically he likes to be looked after
But is he gonna give us any business?
Well he reckons we're losing our business now because we didn't give him a deal
Yeah, well I know but er he hadn't seen anyone, he reckons for well over a year and when  phoned me up I agreed to have lunch with him and then he gave me an earful about all sorts of things including erm  in Norwich issuing net fares on Norwich Amsterdam .
You know  this K L M deal, so obviously we hadn't got  under the finger until  called me in almost desperation
Well  phoned me about  and I passed it to you
Yeah, but nothing was done so he came through to me
Oh well  
well he wasn't happy with what he'd received.
had basically told him he lived in the Stansted catchment area and we didn't need to do a deal with him, and that's what irritated him
Well on the basis of what  was told by the guy she went to see at  who was the key account manager
yeah?
er no some other bod who was dealing with the  accounts at  in Enfield.
He got a letter on file, he produced a load of stats which were a load of bollocks and prove and proved that we weren't losing any business and then he they had a deal with us which was Eurobudget with no restrictions when they were based at Dagenham
cos they were using  right that, no the deal hasn't lapsed that's what we were trying to do 
Well according to him it has elapsed
We told him it's elapsed because they're not at Dagenham any more and he doesn't like it.
So he said oh, when he see me he said 
The truth will out here 
He's told you  that you're not, we're not getting a fair share of the business with him, but the figures I see don't don't say that at all 
Well he reckons he hadn't seen anyone from  for months
Well that's crap
I'm only telling you what he said
Well I know but this is, but this is where we're caught with our pants down because we haven't got the thing 
when I spoke to  about it she said  that you told her to hand it over to my department cos it was a national account
Well if it is then that's right, but it's not  
so if she had been told that
well if it isn't yeah, if we, if  and I thought it was national account which means it's a multi-locational site which it is
mm
then it's a national account, but in terms of the guy not seeing anybody we went to him to sort out what was going on and she must have come away there from  with all the sites and said I shouldn't be dealing with this, it's a national account, it's the  national account and that's when I said you must pass it over to  then
Well can we get this sor stuff sorted then, because this is gonna go on forever, because I I think to be quite honest it is a lack of communication between two parties 
I don't think it is
I think it's in all honesty the corporates have taken decisions
and we haven't got to grips with the corporate market yet fully
Yeah well  I know that's true erm and we've been power fighting and that's the problem
I think those of you have genuinely erm defined what's been said in two different ways and perfectly correctly because  
I think, I think we need a meeting to get it laid down, we need a meeting to clear the air or not clear the air necessarily but get some definitions some definitions down yeah?
mm
cos we can't seem to be, cos otherwise we look like flipping idiots
It's not fair on either of you or  or your people either
Well no
All right 
Well that's the been the problem issue we've been struggling through on that basis
But one thing I would say and I think this is very valid and think pe it won't be long before people start to pick up on it and er we haven't got a national accounts, a proper national accounts team cos we haven't got the people and we all know the reasons why  but nevertheless you know they're, they're pinpointing areas of big business with big companies like  and  and not allowed to go into new business 
ah, hello 
No we have put a proposal to  but they turned it down twice 
Yeah I know 
cos they said it wasn't good enough
There's quite a few, there's quite a few national accounts
Yeah,come out with look I mean right what happens any travel agent right will tell ya right that these are that there are huge corporates with massive opportunities for business in the corporate sector particularly on  because they're used to saying that the  reps and in the main  will buy that because they'll be able to get something out of it.
It's not the same for , different set-up and they don't understand us therefore they come out with statements like that
No, this isn't this isn't travel agents making these statements  this is us when we go and talk to say an implant
Well it's the same thing as a travel agent
Well I mean you can see from the stats, the figures and routes they fly that we get ten per cent when we should be getting twenty
Yeah, but you can always establish why though
like  remember when we first went to see  he reckons we were losing business.
When we looked at the figures we proved that we wouldn't get any more business because of where people lived and when we tried to push them to Detroit over Amsterdam they wouldn't have it, people would prefer to drive to Gatwick.
If there was ever a classic  is about the laziest bastard on this side of Christendom and he and he he wouldn't do anything that supports your business at all 
We know, we never suggested that  said that their business is going down with us and that there was no extra business there for us  
erm  who was national account manager wanted us to relieve  for an exploratory  
is that tea there?
yes
I think basically
but how I structure my department would depend in all honesty on the type of people we get  knows this.
If we get first division people I'll do it a different way to him if I had to end up with second division people and the responsibilities they take on board will very much reflect that and the same surely should happen to the field sales force erm their abilities are reflected in in what sort of activities we give them and by looking at the people we have we then put together a team to most accurately attack whatever we want to do.
I'm not sure how I'm going to structure the department, it depends on the people I get in all honesty
Right, okay well can we just leave this for a minute please because we're not getting
I mean it's not a major issue I mean it is an issue it's not a major issue it's just that there have been one or two occasions like  where we have cross purposes but considering you know they are a relatively minor tour operator I wouldn't want that to muddy the water because that was just just erm a misunderstanding.
What it does and I think we're also dealing with a with a with a, people like  right and  is probably arguably worse right who've never really had any sort of responsibility before and they not quite sure where the lines are drawn.
And  in a worse position than  because the North  they've never done any deals, never seen anybody, national accounts, done nothing in that area in terms of deals and negotiations and things like that and it was only six months ago that where  could actually find out he could do deals.
I mean that's the worst scenario than the one you got into 
Oh, yeah absolutely at least we were able 
and what they do is all this typical  regimented structures and regimented bloody this and that run like the fucking civil service
But we not regimented  in this department we're flexible that's why these things are happening cos we turn our hands to whatever we believe is in the interests of the company.
Yes I know that 
See what I mean 
but it cuts across, no there there comes a point where the  of this world say oh am I allowed to do this, am I allowed to do that if you've been here for more than three years right and it's particularly prevalent in Scotland, oh are we allowed to do that, oh I didn't know and that's old  that is.  old  to a certain extent you know, she's been around longer than  has and  been around but  influenced by  who's been around a long time you see that's where we get it, you see we don't get the initiative coming in that area we get we get the oh Christ, bloody hell let's shove that one out the way that's a national account.
You know.
That's what happened over , hadn't really dealt with big tour operators in the past  and I think she got a bit nervous about it
Well yeah
erm  and  ended up dealing with it but that's not to say she shouldn't deal with it erm she just got to be trained how to deal with it
She's put allocations on that list cos the other, the other field sales people don't see why they can't get involved with the tour operator who wants an allocation
Well we don't normally do allocations  
I know 
It's only on Innsbruck that we've done it because that's what the market demands.
We don't want pe I mean we don't want sales reps agreeing to allocations I mean at the moment we haven't got anybody to administer them it's being done by groups it's going to be a nightmare  in a big way
Well we've actually turned away  I think that the best thing is that you er that the three er  obviously there's .
I think that's there's certain things implied from  area and er and er there's misunderstanding coming from your area
I don't think it's misunderstanding
It is!
Total misunderstanding from  area.
They're not quite clear at all.
I can hear that just in the last ten minutes
Yeah, I must admit
I mean, I must admit I was talking to  beforehand and  not clear not sure on certain things.
She's asked me
Whose responsibility or whose, whose supposed to be that is irrelevant, it just needs to be cleared up.
Okay
All right moving on rapidly
Before you do anything, I'm gonna interrupt here, tea coffee?
Which would you like?
Er black tea
I was gonna say same thing.
A lot of these queries, or some of it stems from the fact that we're also conscious of the fact that we can't keep passing things to Gary when he's only got one person
wants to go full-time into erm groups and she's trying to do a one hundred and one different things.
Can we not say that we say if we don't have agreement by the thirty first of January we can take someone like  who we've already identified who will do the job for the money and take at least one person on pending a decision on the salary increase?
I think we've got to
Because we need at least one person to do it, it's go it's getting out of control now
I think we'll have to take a person internally
Do you have sugar, Gary?
Well  is the strongest internal candidate
Sugar?
Yes, please
Well let's
Do you see what I mean I don't want this to drag on and on
No, no, well I know that and I know
Even if I can get rid of the the tour operators erm or put somebody like  onto because we got  up and running now and I haven't got anyone to deal with it
Well I think your group selection thing with the internal candidates  that's all gonna take time again isn't it?
No, that's what I'm saying, we've identified one person who'll join us for the summer.
If we don't get approval to increase the salary by the thirty first of January so I can have the two people I want can I appoint this lady and bring her on board cos I know she'll do a reasonable job in a certain area?
Well I think you've got to, I mean
Don't say no please because things aren't getting  
No I agree with that, I think you've got to yes we'll agree that and also hopefully by then we'll have clarity the clarity on the salary and then we'll get  in there in which case you're laughing, right
So we'll say deadline by thirty one January.
If we don't get agreement we take on this lady from Oxford
Because internally we still haven't got anybody that shines out have we?
Yet
That's why I would like to do a group assessment erm but yes long term  
Group assessment though is is a luxury isn't it at the moment
I think for a day's er work it's worth assessing the three top people  identified with the six outside people that I've identified who are you know in the next division down to see how they compare.
I think we owe it to people like  or at least to give them another crack at the whip to see if they've come on in that interim period cos it's a good six months since we interviewed
Well I don't think we owe it to them we just delivered them a nice big salary and they've got more than enough work to do.
I think we were in that situation six months ago, I don't think we owe owe those three candidates anything now
Well do you think?
Would you like to see them in  against the outside candidates if we look at this 
I think it's not very likely though is it, Christ Almighty  we're talking here about getting people on board to help you out  the assessment are bit academic
right well if we haven't got the decision then by the thirty first of January you're agreed we can offer one job to  from ?
Yeah  to do the leisure things?
Yep
Alright
And then if we get agreement on a salary increase then we only have to pay it to one person
Well we've only got one person to pay it to 
Well no, we got two in the sidelines, we got this Indian guy who was not coming for a second interview until we can say we'll pay him 
Well you don't know  I mean you don't know, you might say right twenty grand and then he might say oh no I've re-considered I want twenty two and then he might say I'm not gonna turn up.
He might turn up he might turn up and then say no sorry twenty grand forget it, don't want to work for you anyway.
It's all a bit iff in the clouds
Can I just make a point this thing about salary because I know we can't people we want at the salary and all the rest of it but then there's, if we're go if that's the s if we're now saying that that's the salary for the job and there's no no way in my conscience rests clear really that we should just pay that to one person
It isn't, it's not ideal  I mean I've got a problem with 
Well he's happy  
and I can't see any way out of it
well
I want the best people for the job  and it if means I gotta pay one or two thousand more
But I'm not sure that's right  I just, I mean I spent three years
It's not right  we know it's not right it's the fact that it's an expedient measure.
We need staffing, people in that area and she's an internal candidate that's come through, she's done a good job right and and now she's you know it's not right but at the moment it gets us over a q over a quick fix
You can always red circle that salary at a later date and hold her increases down against other people.
There are all sorts of options
But as you say, it may never happen anyway.
Anyone else think we should bother about that yet?
No but it's all tied up with this role of national accounts
It's dragging on too long
Yes a tricky issue but I think we've got to get to grips with it
Well we can get to grips with it at this meeting when you talk amongst yourselves er as to how you divide up the base accounts yeah?
But we can't get that meeting any earlier for you
No well  as well as an issue
But there's, there's people people holding a shotgun to our heads saying yeah I'll come and do this job and I want x.
We've been all through that we've got the salaries re-graded and we don't pay a bad wage now
Well not at national account level  I've seen lots of people now and I'm sorry 
We've let five people go who would have joined for another two grand
so we mis-judged the grading of my people when we reset the salaries.
The evidence is there in abundance
We got it there or thereabouts for sales executives right? the area development exec job but we didn't get it right we were two grand adrift quite clearly demonstrable evidence that we were two grand adrift on that pay and I've asked  now to agree to upping the pay level and if he does we might get some decent people and then we worry about the ramifications of that afterwards, yeah?
But that's always the way it is in 
Yeah
You go for a quick short-term fix, right?
Yeah, there are, there is another quick, another quick short-term fix is promote people from within
Good luck to them, I'm not convinced in my own mind and I mean we've interviewed these people that there are people internally ready yet, that's why I said perhaps we should  
Well what're you saying then , what are you saying that, are you saying that  is now ready? ready?
In an ideal world of course they're not but but I'm saying if if you're looking for a quick fix then that's a quick fix.
You say there's three candidates there who get, one who is actually earning the money that we pay and two that aren't, the quick fix is to say right we given you an opportunity to do this national accounts job at the same salary for six months, see if you can do it, and if you do it we confirm the salary.
Now that's a quick fix and hasn't cost anything, hasn't put anybody's nose out of joint and 
It has cost you
No it hasn't
You've lost all your back-up a very high proportion of it on your own team
Have I?
Sorry I thought you were talking about two
He says you've got one that would join at the money and can do the job
My top objective is to get  on board because I believe she is the best person for the job.
I've worked with her now for nearly two years and I think she'd do an excellent job.
Now she may accept if the salary is not confirmed, a lower salary.
I mean we've got to offer it to her and see what her ultimate decision is.
She could be bluffing we don't that do we for certain erm yes we have got one who will accept the salary yes we could take one from outside the field that's why I wanted this deadline so if we don't get the increase in salary by this date we can then start planning and take on board the second tier level
Because there's no doubt I'll find somebody to do a field sales role
Oh that's two a penny
Well they're easier, I'll find somebody easier
Well it's easier to recruit at the lower level than it is the upper
Yeah, so I mean
But don't forget this this is a very important time  with the all the increase coming in they've got a helluva lot to take on, not just learning the company but they got the new routes and everything and it's going to leave  I would've thought very short in an exceptionally busy period
No more short than 
I'd rather  had the people I can survive with one person, one person down
from the three that you've got 
just moved from sales hasn't she 
I, I've I've put forward 
I thought  didn't want to do it anyway
Due to location where she lives 
Do you think she wants to do it?
Yeah not 'alf
Yes
Yes, she very very erm keen to give it a go
You see we've gone from paying these people twelve thousand to fourteen thousand to eighteen thousand 
in six months do you
See what I mean, you don't pay her that for six months, you say to her right this this is the score, we will review this first July nineteen ninety-four
Would you pay her an interim amount?
No we can't, she's on trial .
If she hack the job she gets it if she can't she goes back to what she was doing
Okay we'll give it until the end of January then.
If we find we can't get an increase in salary
In fact you're in a stronger position now because then you can say she's not s she's not suitable and pass her back  
Well you're in a stronger position than if you take somebody on and find out six months later that they can't do it, where you gonna put them?
Okay we wait until the end of the month and see if  comes up with the salary and work along that basis
Why is, do we know why he's taking so long?
Who?
He hasn't.
He's not taken that long.
I only asked him the other day
Oh beg your pardon sorry I didn't realise
gone you see
yeah
I mean if this had all sort of come before  left we'd have got it through no problem
Right
Unfortunately the bloke decided to leave too early 
Erm well one way or the other it's got the result
I'm quite happy to do that take  and  and put  on a six month's trial if we don't salaries through
Well something's gonna be done
Which  is this?
This is an outside candidate
Oh beg your pardon I'm sorry I thought you said internal right
You see, I must admit you see  not I don't  gonna do as good a job as 
don't think she's gonna do as good a job and that would definitely make it.
If we got internal candidates 
well water's gone under the bridge since then
Yeah
Water's gone under the bridge since then be fair  did not perform well there's no question about it and we have worked with her in the field erm she wasn't she wasn't brilliant
No she
She got a , I think she got a bit of a shock you know she actually probably thought she was better than she was and a lot of people had been giving her a lot of pats on the back and I tell you where half of that emanated from was down the corridor.
and other various tosspots who were sort of giving her pats on the back and they were making all sorts of slurping noises about her, weren't they? erm salivating
Somebody else did, somebody else said something
Yeah, wasn't it 
Yeah that's right 
saying oh what a great  person you've got.
Totally uninformed judgements yet again clouding the issue.
She probably had a real great impression of herself right she did and then when she turns round and we said well I'm sorry  and  said well sorry no  got a bloody big shock, gave her a shock to the system and to be quite honest what I've seen of her since then has been a darn sight more er spruced up and a bit more on the bloody ball than she was before
Yep
Witnessed at the Tottenham Hotspur game and er
Tottenham Hotspur game what else played a role in that is the two people going
Yes
which is a nasty shock
shock for everybody
and the  
and the course she was dynamite on the course, she was cruising on the course
yeah but she also, that we a tough course
and she was very ill at the time  was it?
so I mean she's, she's she's and I said to her when when all the things were going wrong with  I had to have a lot of chats with her and said well you you've got to prove that you can rebound from this
Yeah
you've just taken a knock you didn't get the job, it's not to say a job won't come up again now what you gonna do give up or keep trying?
And she's kept trying and that's what makes me think she's got
I got it here
But she's not, I'm not saying she's hasn't got a lot to learn 
Yeah, but she's only got as much to learn as the girl that  girl 
seventh of Feb
seventh of Feb 
You can make a judgement after that, if you're not impressed after the
Have you worked with her in the field?
with the greatest respect  you can't actually  cos you haven't worked with that many of them have you?
But horses for courses you see there are  not an option cos he won't move from Scotland and there's not reason why he should do and so you can forget anybody north of forget anybody in  area
if you don't think that the girl that you've interviewed is gonna do as good a job as 
Well it depends in which area
This girl's quite switched on on the tour operator side
Well she's worked she works for a tour operator, she worked for a 
she's worked in a number of different areas 
she hasn't gone out and sold it though has she?for one or two fairly decent names er
Yeah well her her travel experience is fairly late
Yeah but I mean that's not necessarily an issue I mean what did she do for B M W cars?
Sold cars, it's nothing like what we're doing
She's financing on cars
Well it's nothing like it is it?
Well you see in an ideal situation  of the six people I've got on the second list there's better quality people there but they've got absolutely zero experience but we're not the sort of company who can take these people on and train them really
I'd agree with  there
So you know we're stuck between a rock and a hard place 
Yeah but at the end of the day is she is she better or worse than ?
Yeah
I would've put them on the same level in all honesty 
where do you put them then ?
I would go for  every time better the devil you know for that reason alone really
In many ways I wish we'd taken on that girl now who we saw right at the very beginning with 
Fucking hell what ?
Oh I don't think she was right  either sorry old son 
Yeah you see but when I was seeing them one after the other tens and twenties you don't see the dross you see 
Well I know I don't see  .
Nobody's criticising you  nobody's making I'm not making a criticism of her cos at the end of the day right if we now talking the scenario that we're painting now let's take this  girl on, not  girl  girl on right, you can have  cos she's far more impressive.
You would have had, if you played the scenario back, take yourself back in time when we interviewed this bird  you would have had  well I would have had her
Well I gotta say I I I
Not in the biblical sense but you know what I mean
I was quick to snap her up before you changed your mind  she wasn't right for national accounts at that time she'd been good in the groups role 
yeah but you haven't got the right people now have you?
He hasn't got anybody now 
No what I'm saying is we'd have the right people if we pay more money, that's the core of the problem
That's moving the flipping goalposts isn't it?
I think the thing you have to say that  as far as I'm concerned, from what I've see of her so far and I haven't worked with her in the field yet but far brighter spark in your department than that one we interviewed the other day
All I'm saying  is I've got to have people, I've got confidence in me because at the end of the day I'm responsible 
Well this right well I know that  I know that .
All I'm try we're only speaking from the best interests here, speaking from the bloody heart rather than the head probably here but we we do want th we do want the best but it's the old old story, it's botching it up isn't it, it's fudging it, it's trying to fit a square pet into a role  cos we pay crap money  y'know
Yeah, if at the end of the day it's a quick fix then
Yeah, quick f if a the end of the day it's a quick fix we may as well take somebody we've got
Yeah, exactly cos at least they know the culture
culture, they know what an agent looks like and they know what a tour operator looks like and they know  and they know one or two other people around and so on and so forth 
They also know what's expected of them 
Okay, we'll set the deadline at thirty one January
Right okay
Do you want to dictate it to me ?
it was agreed that thirty one January would be set as a deadline for recruiting national account execs, pending a salary review
Are these national account or key account
Key account
Key account
Thank you.
Right I'll just put national account execs, key account execs, right okay
Alright well I think well I think actually well I know we've droned on about it for half an hour but I think it's worth a discussion to be quite honest, don't you?
I know it is, it's not exactly doing a lot for me either but er cos it gets raised every bloody management meeting but I think having discussed the matter we've actually opened ourselves out a few more options than we probably thought we had
Yep
Right?
And I think that's 
It'd be nice to have  and say  in together
Well let's see you see at the end of the day  will probably suit you better er cos she's quite mature isn't she for her age?
Yeah
That's just because she's married to an older man basically er she's I know it's a sweeping generalisation but it is it is a fact that and and she's more your type 
What does that mean?
Well, she's quiet and quite steady
Well we have to be we have to be because erm
I know you do it's not don't get touchy old pal, it's not a criticism.
You do in  account management is a different discipline than field sales.
Account management is a a lot about files and backup and administration and sorting this out and sorting that out.
Yeah it is, it's going out and doing the business as well but it's gotta have a lot more intellectual input er in you know in terms of having a having a greater insight into how a company works, how an airline operates, how the marketing department operates and so forth.
Why do you think I why do you think I gave you the fucking job eh?
National accounts department.
You know.
would've struggled in that job.
He'd be the first to admit it.
I'm struggling in this one
You know it is you do need that quality people who have a bit of insight but  got a lot of those
Yeah
She's got a lot of those what what's the word?
Skills
Not necessarily skills, she's got a lot of those erm
Disciplines?
Erm
Do you think they've come on then since we interviewed here?
Cos it's sad in my opinion that going back to where we were several months ago because we set out  out to attracting higher quality people paying them more money and we've come back again to basically seeing the people who we saw in the first instance
Yeah, but time's have changed .
Things have changed since then.
You've only gotta look in the back of the T T G because there's now four pages of jobs compared to half a page
that's why all these people can now ask for more money.
Eighteen months ago they wouldn't have been asking for more money
They wouldn't have dared.
Well you wouldn't have got  and  er when you did
No, exactly, no
You wouldn't get them now.
You wouldn't get them today
Wouldn't get them today no
Tell you to stuff you know, get stuffed
I think I think we know where we're coming from there and I mean that's worthwhile.
Point six, he says quickly, what does that mean, point six?
Point six means that wh just to remind you that when we had the sales conference we did promise these
Yes, I know, I remember that, that's what I thought it may be.
I thought about it last night and I was laying awake all last night thinking about it
So was I
I think we  I think the only way we can actually really do this is is to pick one from  area, one from your area, one from  area and one from Europe and just have er almost arbitrary er decision but justify it.
Fucking hell 
We have to come to an arbitrary decision and then justify it
Yes, so it looks kosher
And I think what we should have is a fifth person which is an outstanding sales award or something like that which covers all regions cos in Europe you woul you wouldn't vote for any of them would you?
I don't think there's any question about that
We'll make a case that he can't.
We'll kick him in the groin if he questions it
Your area's got have one, got have one erm and we have er one I think  deserves something er I think erm one other person may be deserves something, who that is, God knows who.
But I mean  is gonna struggle cos he ain't had many people for very long, has he?
The only person he's had through the tr the turbulence and turmoil of the last year is  and you wouldn't give her a 
You wouldn't give her anything, should have it
I don't see what's wrong with  frankly, she's been through it all and she's hung on in there
Which is a very er
don't pre-judge it  has gotta decide, you've gotta decide your area , that's one north, one south.
Europe?well we could beat about the bush but there's not a single rep on the road that ever gets out the office so  gotta win it cos I actually saw I actually we I actually saw her go out and see a customer so she must she must be er
she saw two with you?
Well she saw six with me right, that's eight times more than any of the rest of them have seen so I mean that's er
That's not fair  does a good job
Yeah
so er  is a waste of space so and he works he works for  so er that's stuff it
You pick who you want but you gotta justify it and er and then so so okay, for arguments sake you pick  say, for arguments sake  picks .
is picked in er Europe er that's three.
Er outstanding achievement award er dreamt up title  say er and then runner up to that or something like that  or something like that, yeah?
Yeah?
I think that would be a good mix actually
And then you got five, yeah?
Yep
Well we promised them a week in Bali, didn't we?
How the fuck we'll get round that I don't know
What, the five of them together, unaccompanied?
No, the five plus partners we said, didn't we?
Plus partners yeah
And there could be one outstanding person of the year  telephone sales which God knows I wouldn't wanna pick that.
Dear oh dear.
Who'd wanna pick that?
I think they oughta drop res out of it.
It's too complicated isn't it?
Can you image one sales agent getting a flipping prize like that?mental, there'd be a riot.
So that was that point, was it ?
Yep
So let's say we award five, five categories, shall I put that down?
Five categories of award  for nineteen ninety-three performance er awarded at sales conferences, yeah
I actually think  that, I know it is more complicated and messy but I think that she should pick someone from res.
I think you've got to keep er you've got to keep that momentum going because
Yeah well I'll speak to  about it by all means but I'm not quite sure how the hell she's gonna be able to do it.
Yeah?
know it's difficult
No it's alright there might be a way I mean I could be wrong, I could be wrong
I know it is more complicated and messy but I think that she should pick someone from res.
I think you've got to keep er you've got to keep that momentum going because
Yeah well I'll speak to  about it by all means but I'm not quite sure how the hell she's gonna be able to do it.
Yeah?
know it's difficult
No it's alright there might be a way I mean I could be wrong, I could be wrong.
Right , having put them under the banner, clear banner of sales you know
Yeah
To be excluded and then you know when all the glory's around there's no-one there again.
I'm sure that's that's gonna work against what you've been trying to do since you got here.
You know, maybe we pick someone from groups who've been doing a lot of good work lately, perhaps  or something or  you know some something like that, just er so they're not left out the frame
You're gonna want to support someone in groups aren't you?
Sorry?
You're gonna want to support someone in groups with the changes coming on board, know what I mean?
Alright, alright let me speak separately to  about that.
What about er  then ?
well the  have agreed the contract.
Er I did bring it with me to give to  but obviously I'll have to send it now.
I've got the phone number er it's just a case now of er getting on and getting it advertised and marketing it but it's all been signed
Is the  ledger line?
Yeah
Are we marketing it then?
Through all the literature the  produce
not doing a brochure then huh?
Oh  got to produce a few sheets of stuff and we've gotta get the addresses of the  bases and get it distributed and it's a task I'm gonna pass on to 
But the  don't do their own brochure th ?
Yeah, they do services, booking services, yeah.
We we he's giving us free advertising in there for  issue anyway
W where do they ring?
What number do they ring?
Erm
I don't want the number, where is it?
Norwich
Oh, it's in Norwich, is it?
Yeah, they wanted to put it in Norwich  
Well fair enough
I just hope she's got it right cos I've explained it all to her and sh 
Well to be quite honest I think the reason she wanted it in Norwich was cos Glasgow're over-loaded as it was I think and they had to learn new skills and staff support and therefore it might not be a good idea to have them  as well 
Right so that's fine so I've got the number, I've got things signed, they've got the rates, can handle it you know, she's all ready to go and get the advertising in and that should start
And when does that start then?
Well it's it's it's started really
What do you mean, it's started?
Well at first of February
Is it?
Yeah, paper work's all been signed now
And what's it called, Leisure Line or  
Yeah, Leisure Line 
Alright okay
Cash er cheque or credit card  and then I said to you  that's really some it's really a special market that, Leisure Line.
it's a special market
Well no not once it's set up, it runs itself, doesn't it?
Well someone's gotta liaise with the , someone's got to make sure that re erm res are up-dated with rates
Yeah, but rates just get  so whenever we up-date those they just get the new rates
Yeah, but I mean someone's got to open it
They're not getting I T A flights, they're getting  for full fare, aren't they?
No no   mega passengers
Cor this looks a good deal 
It is a good deal, that's why 
Fucking hell  is not as generous as that
I know it's not  
full fare
is only flights , ours isn't
What d'you mean it's flights?
it's any flight, thirty percent off, our is off-peak flights  class
plus a ten pound booking fee
So I can't remember everything  you know
Ten quid booking fee I got out of them as well so it's better than 
Ten pound booking fee?
Yeah, per booking, not per passenger, per booking
So they're gonna pay ten quid for booking?
Yeah
Well aright I'm k I've just had long had long memories of the .
You've done well, I think you, so what has the  said then, is that a national account or is it?
Well I suppose ultimately it is if they use the  yeah.
They come in as a net fare operator
Someone's gotta organise all the literature and the
Oh well maybe you discuss that at your meeting on the second of February yeah cos er where that lies with I'm not bothered who it lies with to be quite honest  Er, so what you're saying basically on point seven then is it's all tickety boo is it?
Yeah
Yeah
Open for business
Open for business.
Cor I've heard that phrase before.
It's only taken two years to 
Staff travel policy part eight erm well.
made his comments about that.
Does anybody really want to have a twopennorth on the erm staff travel comment cos
cos , had her twopennorth, put this together brilliantly before he left
Where is it then, where's the 
These documents, I mean it deals with ev everything apart from the main things about
One of the big changes that they propose is that  should be put on an exact par with  within .
Not th not talking about travel on other carriers but within 
The service charges well 
Standardising service charges for tickets er things like firm concessions God Almighty erm who is going to decide whether denim suits look quite smart
I put that
suggested that they be allowed as they can be quite smart
something from the seventies 
Dress.
We should seriously look at modifying this rigid code of dress.
Some sports jackets and denim suits are quite smart and these would be quite acceptable to the  group of companies.
What is not acceptable are jeans with holes in the knees etcetera.
Oh when we travel with other airlines you must abide by the specific code of dress.
You're gonna really cloud the issue if you if you s if you say denim's allowed.
Go on, tell him what I said directors 
Yeah   directors policy would be dealt with separately.
This was in  paper.
Entitlement for directors to be reviewed separately, right, it says here.
As none of the directors are shareholders in the group right, surely they are employees?
Yes they are
Quite right
Anyway, it's a bit of a can of worms that to be quite honest 
I'll collect my P forty-five later on 
.
You should be so lucky.
Have you seen a pencil sharpener in here?
He's obsessed by pencil sharpeners this guy
You should get a proper posh pencil like I have
Yeah, these ones keep breaking
Well you should get one like this 
Cos this one just detached out like that you see, the pencil sharpener's on the end
Oh that's clever
Just sharpen it up, put it back in and retract it and you've got a sharp pencil.
The business
Well I got given these when I was a rep at  when I started, ten years ago and I've still got half a dozen of these you know.
That's that's the difference between us and  
That's not the only difference
pencil fill out your order forms
Ah yeah
Cos there's computer-generated and picked up graphite from pencil
Yeah cos I notice you do everything in pencil in your diary, don't you?
That's right and er 
They did actually, I've lost the clip.
It should actually have a clip so that you stick it in your inside pocket
Has one got a rubber in it as well?
It's a clutch pencil, the business.
This is this is this is yonks ago.
We're talking about, oh fifteen years ago maybe
.
Fifteen years ago that's the sort of technology that we were .
We even got round g we even got round to giving them mobile phones.
We haven't got a fax in the sales office
yours truly did a bit of negotiation on that this week but more of that later maybe when we have er we haven't got any A O B's so while we're on that subject
I did just ask, out of the blue
faxed across to Stansted cos she's waiting for it
Oh yeah 
I'll get one of the girls downstairs to do it, can I?
She's gotta fax it over to Southampton cos I've got the master
Southampton?
It's twenty to four 
Alright, well I tell you what, we'll have a break then for five minutes because er I forgot I need to phone the office 
I need to go home
Sorry?
I need to go home
Go home then you're bloody welcome.
Told to go home
What have we got left?
Sales services,?
Half an hour 
Right 
this phone?
d'you reckon?
Hm, hello there, could I speak to  please in the sales office?
the  puffy lunch
Where's that bloody pencil sharpener thing gone?
I asked  for it on Wednesday, she's gone me one, she put in this bag and
Oh, well we'll see if I get chance later on I'll phone, alright?oh that can wait.
I'm gonna come in first thing Monday thought cos I've gotta pick some things up right.
But it's a ten past ten flight, I'll be left by half past nine so I'll be there for half an hour
Oh yeah, sales merchandising company yeah?
Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh does he really?
Well forget him then.
That's a sales representation company.
We don't want any sales representation in Belfast.
We've got somebody that'll go over there once a m once a year is enough for the business.
Yeah yeah.
D'you want  do you?
Alright, that's it then apart from that right okay, alright, I'll put you on to then.
I'll see you later.
I'll see you Monday morning then, have a good weekend.
Alright dear.
Bye
Hello  alright?
Pencil sharpener
I've been search for it and here it is look at that, two in there, that's the new one
Oh, they've half-inched it have they?
Oh dear dear, can't have that eh?
Valuable commodities pencil sharpeners
Talking about valuable commodities, when are we gonna get on to the subject of 
oh dear
Excuse me excuse me boys we have er we have a rare opportunity here to have er a bring the sales meeting to an end where we will resume in the sub-committee, the third party in the  sales office users sub-committee 
You realise you dragged me away from one of my important I A T A meetings today?
He's never missed one since
he hasn't missed one since the second world war
Was it?
Oh well done, all you gotta do is find the agenda now.
Okay then we'll see you some time over there will I?
Right okay great yeah yeah right okay lovely.
So you s you just stay in the morning eh?
Right that's it fine.
Fair enough, thanks a lot, see you later, bye.
Right, well back to this please.
Final final sales  update
Very quick, erm for the new route to  already got all his plates for Munich, erm we're under negotiations with 
to go in there?
Well we're trying for first of March.
I don't know if accounts'll be ready because they've got to set up new bank accounts in Norway and Denmark and accounts with the credit card companies in both of the countries separately.
Erm, as far as we're concerned we can get it under way.
I'm seeing  on Tuesday to see how he wants to g us to go about it in Norway.
I think because we're going to have lack of erm secretarial setup erm in either country
Denmark is a priority 
we'll almost certainly erm use the contractor over there, the recognised contractor, both for supplying and servicing all our planes.
It's erm a modest cost.
I'll do a complete costing on it but I think er the only thing is of course there are so few agents total.
We're talking just under two hundred in Denmark and just under three hundred in Norway it may be cost-effective for us to do it ourselves with initial distribution from Stansted and maybe a local person doing any new distributions but I think in all honesty it will be as cheap for us  
You see because  does that
Erm I think accounts are gonna be pushed f pushed for the first of March.
queried whether we really needed to be in it and I told him that sales wanted it and the reasons why we wanted to be in erm even the fact that it was going to k erm give us more accounting work erm whatsisname what bank is it?
Yeah
There are four banks in all and that means extra accounts and what are you going to do with all that money?
I said 
remind you that all money at the moment goes either to  first which isn't quite so bad cos they're family but a vast amount goes into  and , both of whom have therefore access to our commercial sensitive, for want of a better term, information and we want to control that.
We want to put it back in to .
We also want the money quicker which erm I would have thought would more than outweigh any of the so-called extra expense that you've got and er I said we regard it as an essential sales tool to be get m better recognition in the country so er he is progressing with the applications.
As regards the purely administrative side, I can see no problem at all, can see no problem.
Erm, it's extremely highly automated both in respect of the agents and the reporting and everything which er  says will actually be very good for them.
Erm but what we will have to do is set up our local procedures as regards agents queries and things like that in both countries, both with  and also whatever you decide in Denmark of how we run the procedure but that can be something  later but what we'll need to do is no doubt before we actually do the distribution to the agents and the erm the information out to them th why we're going into  on our own as opposed to being served by the other carriers.
So erm that's really it.
I'm not intending to do anything with any carriers as regards new  stuff through the  
it's me.
Alright dear?
schedule, just in case we suddenly find we haven't got slots and  
yes, I got the message 
signed up and until they give us a firm this is it
but there will be one or two quite good new opportunities I think.
One or two of the long-haulers  in Munich who are erm
Copenhagen as well 
Copenhagen yes sorry there's existing ones but there's there's erm I think Malaysian and is it Denmark, somebody like that
You got my note on 
Yes thank you
Cos that's quite easy to set up
No erm do they want it on er full and excursions?
Two separate rates and do they want it net or gross?
You need to contact that guy
Okay so I'll t I'll talk to him direct
Okay
Erm but Stansted Paris and Stansted Frankfurt  centre business trips and
Really?
Of course they've got the 
so they can go round the circuit
Yeah
Using us as the middle bit, it doesn't matter which airport they use?
Cos we need to cos we need to sort of all hands to the pump next week cos we've got a big change-over  Yeah but I know ink   well no cos the leaflet he's got has only just been approved and it's going out next week  yeah  well I mean you're to ha you're to handle their enquiries er deal with their enquiries and then tell them to phone  yeah  yeah yeah but you see it's the mailing that's gone out and and then he's got to do some advertising first two weeks in Feb.
Mailing's gone out.
It's not really made it clear that it's for bookings and reservations as well.
It's not made it clear.
It says this is the only number you want but as  read it and said well it doesn't really make it clear it's for reservations and bookings and it doesn't really so we'll just have to make sure that it damn well happens on the advert.
The other thing is I need er we need to monitor the source of er informations reg information regarding the cordless phone promotion so I've devised a form which I'll get faxed   yeah in other words, where did they find out about the promotion.
Right?
Oh other people.
So when they phone up your girls and they say oh I I've seen this promotion about a cordless phone I want the girls to ask where where did you hear about it?
Well I've desi I've got a special form for it  Mhm yeah right okay and we well this is this is a different type of form and it needs it we need it more specific.
We need to know whether it was from the Mail on Sunday or the Sunday Times, from the television, all those sort of things and it's just a simple form, they tick a tick a box.
Right so I'll I'll post that up to somebody  right.
Well I'll I'll fax it first thing in the morning on Monday right or somebody will so you can get it y'know we just need to monitor it for a week and that's it.
No longer so just to get a feel f 
she lacks what I would call sales technique
Yeah but it was well  it in until two days before Christmas
that's one thing she has done more of in this last six months  structure.
If I showed her this you know what you've done there
yeah well I mean I wouldn't 
and a number have had two or three on time saver with the incentive
I can't see the reason
No, but she works from home, she's got
got an advantage she got a fax at home  
yeah well that's probably not a bad thing.
No well I don't want anybody going round saying that the phones have been inundated in Norwich because we because we haven't circularised the number properly cos that's our fault not anybody else's 
come in every day does she, not if she's got calls to make from home 
I don't mean today I mean if she's going in to London or something  you know she's got a base in London to do something in the morning before she goes on a call as opposed to some of them who haven't got a proper office space 
Well it will be for a for a month at least until people find out the number
running a social club 
Well I mean the sort of like  in Reading will probably only call once every blue moon  Yeah but you've got a situation where there's  and  and sort of and th she's not gonna tell  is she?th what's going on 
all that off her own back y'know, only a little thing but she's doing that as well 
Yeah
I don't know you'll have to 
Yeah
Yeah well b well what I'm trying to say and I can't emphasise it too strongly is that I don't want anybody going round like  writing another stupid letter to somebody saying that erm you know the reason we're inundated that it hasn't been advertised properly cos I tell you what it'll come back right in our faces cos it's our bloody fault  Well that's right well we know that I mean I told them all I told them all quite clearly when I was up in Glasgow that they'd be quiet for at least a month because p it'll take time to filter through.
You know, the number and I mean  hasn't been able to get round to buying space in the T T G and Travel Weekly until the first two weeks in February cos we were so late in informing him  I must  had this conversation  has taken away the brochure so there's not a copy here but we'll try and get hold of some as soon as possible but I mean they're mainly for Glasgow  but  had been been up there from R and D y'know and she said that the people up there didn't seem to know the slightest thing about interline how to deal with interline tickets and agency tickets and all that sort of business.
Well I think that well   what interline? oh good thinking.
Well good th yeah right yeah.
Well she c well when she came down there I mean she wasn't trying to score points or anything.
I just think that she was genuinely worried that they didn't seem to know a lot about it.
I said well I thought well  has been up there  been up there er I thought  had been up there a had been up there?
Yeah
Now that's that's not account management in the same way that  isn't it?
well between the two between the two no the only between the two  in Glasgow is that you've got to cover it all anyway 
Whatever.
I mean if Glasgow breaks down for I mean if the pros get called out for two weeks it's not gonna make a big deal of difference  at Norwich.
But you know what's gonna happen.
Some arsehole right is going to pick up and say oh well I phoned up this and y'know and then phoned the bloody managing director 
based on a two for one that's hundred and ten quid  
yeah well exactly that's wh yeah that's what I said alright 
that's what we that's what we sold 
right  no 
anything like that again just  
yeah well you know it's okay  well you know I well you know yeah it's just that it worried me  about this meeting here and three people out of the five people in the room didn't realise that it was a reservations and booking service.
They thought it was an enquiry line that was  yeah well it just shows you though doesn't it?
It says it's there is a moral in the story as they say.
Well you can never you never assume anything
and  thought it was a reservations line oh was sorry it wasn't a reservations  line and that it was just an enquiry line.
Well I know I know   is the only one that realised  I would've been more shocked if  had  yeah  I would have been out on the pavement here whistling with a banjo whistling Dixie there you are   that one  no not yet no.
No it's er the initial the initial report that's gone back has said that you're gonna have a bad knee very shortly  but apart from that you'll be inflicted with some physical injury.
Yeah well par for the course par for the course.
Well I hope you're alright anyway.
Put yo put your foot up y it's about time for Home and Away now so you've gotta get that on  
No I'm not I'm not starting to get worried dearest.
Alright.
No I'm only phoning you because you phoned I'm only phoning because you ph yeah yeah no no we've been here all the time and the phone didn't ring once  well 
some houses some houses for sale in your village aren't there?
Yeah there's one little minor adjustment that you y you might be aware you might need to be aware of.
Due to protestations that er  is g for the meantime is go in the interim is going to man Glasgow er on Saturday afternoons.
Well he's just gonna make them stay longer isn't he?
Well that's fine, don't worry we'll get round it.
Just just for a couple of weekends to see how many actual calls we do get.
Ah just a couple of people that's all two people and er they'll just have to get round it somehow but we don't  yeah  well you speak to him right yeah well they can have they can have what they want but I mean it might be just a short term thing.
It depends it depends on how many calls we get but  says that the agencies are all open on Saturday afternoons, you shouldn't get lots of leisure leisure bookings and    yeah yeah
I heard that
No he no  no way she didn't say that 
I could hear her thinking it then
he could hear you thinking that he was a silly old git .
Do you know this conversation's being taped?
You've missed you've missed this today.
You've missed this today.
We're having a k our entire meeting's being taped for er for an interest of science  in the interests of science for posterity for a survey on English language
No no this is being done by a university or Longmans press or something like that, surveying the use of language in the nineteen nineties.
However  they can hear me but they can't hear you so that's no no no we've had a fairly usual frank and honest er discussion.
Right okay.
Right we'll leave it at that then.
Have a nice weekend, keep on taking the pills  yeah well you know what it's like y'know there'll be so many people dying for this to fail  well they don't know what's going on but but all they'll get is one call interception which says I can't get through I can't get through, or I've tried this number and it doesn't work and blah you know usual thing but  right I must  keep on taking the Buffalo Bills.
Yeah that's right.
Yes  Amsterdam  no no no I'm cont contactable.
I'll be contactable.
I'll be in first thing for half an hour and then I'm off  alright.
I'll be in Amsterdam sales office for the af from two o'clock in the afternoon yeah
There's a thrill for ya
Alright cheers bye.
Right, sorry about that chaps.
Sorry.
Right then
Are you doing an internal notice on the changes to all departments, including the other airports and everything like that  or who's gonna put that out?
Well I was going to but I was I was hoping to get some news on er summer cruise cos I'm gonna do a whole sales department down in swops and changes first
But I'm just thinking, the airport's should know and also the switchboards should know 
Well I told , knows 
don't look at me like that cos I know that that means 
No it's alright.
I think that there ought to be a proper company wide inst or certainly U K wide instruction going out so that everybody's aware of the changes
Alright.
I'll send a note round then.
You watch some bright spark will say 
I think you're gonna get that anyway whatever you
People don't mind being referred if it's something that is genuinely  but say they phone Leeds and Leeds don't know and Leeds refer them to a number they think it is and then they refer to a third number then somebody gets .
If Leeds say it's not something we can deal with here, this is the number you ring and they've been told the wrong number that is a very bad impression and all the airports get calls constantly, as you know from B A days, so no matter what it's about people will ring a local number, no matter whether it's in two foot high capitals saying for enquiries ring this number
Yeah
Even though it says it's free for you to do it, they'll still ring up another number
Alright so are we have we done point ten have we?
Yeah
Yeah.
Point eleven.
You've got the notes
You you were just saying about us not knowing.
There's my notes from the when I actually passed a repeat and we didn't say that travel agents sales were going to be done on that number.
I wrote them down, trade enquiries, then I 
Don't you remember I stopped no you won't remember but I stopped because I was writing down exactly what we were doing 
Alright I won't repeat what  said 
Thank you very much
All I'll say is you missed a good lunch .
Right, air passenger duty.
Th the notes that're attached are actually for  er he's been looking into the matter and basically it's for information only really
It's completely comprehensive  and really the only thing I would say in addition to that is er there are further meetings coming up.
The next one is er  got a meeting on it er I think the airlines are going on a very much a co- ordinated thing er I think most people are probably in agreement with this size eight exemption, make a group specific because really the idea when they put this original proposal in about the size of aircraft was to protect things like the  and  troops that are shall we say  and I think most people would go for that line of thinking because as  put in there, why the hell should something again on Cambridge when we can't on Stansted but it was really designed to protect certain things.
Erm somehow or other it's going to come along and I think most people's thinkings are that it will be shown as a tax item on the ticket as are the taxes in other countries
As you can see the erm, where is it, we've got to have, or the airlines have got to have their submissions in by the end of this month so if we have got anything really that we want to say from sales we ought to be letting  have it in in a formal thing.
Er the other thing I did mention is we're not the only people who have erm problems with typing.
Timetables
Did you know that I was the only one in the management meeting that picked that up?
You were?
I was the only one that picked that up, that I was incorrectly spelt
And the other one that caught on second was  which says something doesn't it?
And even when it was explained to  he didn't clock it.
Really?
No, he just looked at everybody blank
I went to erm  whatever her name is, no, is it ?
Training cabin staff lady, I've forgotten her name
Yeah.
And said that really shouldn't our cabin staff announcements be changed to say, that the use of portable telephones is not permitted on the aircraft.
She says it is.
I said well will you please stop the girls saying the use of portable telephones are not permitted
I said three flights that I've been on in the last fortnight.
She said Stansted crew, I said yes, and Norwich and Glasgow.
Apparently it is laid down as is but they're all saying are because they thing it's telephones are, not use is
That's a good one for the tape isn't it?
Considering they come from the pick and mix department at   
is that another one of  phrases, is it?
Oh it's a fill in, I thought that was sort of more like a personnel type phrase.
queens
the pick and mix department from  oh brilliant.
No, it's the personnel statement is well what do you expect from  queens who can't talk proper 
While we're on the subject of  can we clear  
no well that comes last.
Please can we get on with the serious stuff please.
Oh this is serious  I'm sorry it is
oh hang on a minute, wait til I've finished please 
okay sorry 
Right, last one then.
Twelve, summer schedule ninety four.
Does anyone want to say anything about that?
I don't know cos we thought you'd be the only one who actually managed to get a copy when nobody else could lay their fice for the af from two o'clock in the afternoon yeah F finalised
Well it seems that being a member of the luncheon club gives you some benefits
Yes yes
Is it worthwhile talking about it now or shall we leave it til next week?
Probably best  
asked for a second rotation on Scotland to Amsterdam on a Saturday
Yeah
In fact, what they've done is split the morning service.
Separate aircraft from Aberdeen and Edinburgh so that will double the capacity but it won't give us two frequencies of cost.
So I mean that's that's  
Seventy five percent of solving the problem because the big problem for capacity was the in-bound on a Saturday morning which, of course, will be solved now
Well we need to we need t there are one or two what I would call relatively minor scheduling issues that we need to keep a handle on and again it's the usual, it's the East coast and Essex stuff isn't it?
You know, Teesside , Norwich  that sort of thing.
I mean, one or two, I mean t you've got a copy haven't ya  of  latest missive on this which was the twenty third of December actually about all these things.
I think he went into far too much detail about it.
I'm worried about this Amsterdam  Amsterdam because it's obvious from  paper 
Mhm
right that  have got a bit of a niche round about five o'clock from bloody Amsterdam and we're getting shafted.
I looked at it, I looked at the er 
Yeah, it's a question of what goes up comes down.
It's all the same stuff you know, we can't move forward unless it comes forward at the other end  
well you see there  to  seventeen forty and Stansted to  the comparable er
Yeah
service is nineteen fifty.
We're getting slaughtered on that and on the other way round.
Th that's now what's the w what time is the fifth rotation?
Seventeen hundred
It's crap, it's in the middle of the day, it's a load of shit, never sell that.
It needs to be it needs to be at one at four, one at six or something like if we can possibly do it
In fact you know that's probably  one of the only ways we can attack on this
Exactly well it's look at this report.
Of all the things that sprung out at me on the paper in this report that we could actually do something about was to slot in a fifth  round about the five o'clock crunch time and taken them out the market but I 
do something about 
Er eighteen forty five  to Stansted is ours, there's a seventeen twenty
Yeah it's much better
Well it's much more user-friendly schedule than we've got.
They're four a day, we're four a day.
We've got five a day.
We've got one more than them therefore we should use it to our advantage.
We haven't got the aircraft at that time, it's peak time
Well why do we then shove it in a stupid s four o'clock job?
Because that's when the seats are available
Yeah well come on I mean we ought to be able to be a little bit more creative than that.
That's one issue that I don't like.
The other issues are Aberdeen to  we're gonna get shafted again  cos  have got a different schedule now haven't they?
They're going to  today
Yeah, are they?
But aren't they going from seven o'clock  nine o'clock  or something like that?
No
No
No, not now, our schedules are perfect with that they're planning cos I spoke to  the other day
Oh well
Are they still ahead of us out to Aberdeen back to  though?
They're gonna be after us now
Are they?
before us but their plan now is to come after us on a D C nine
Oh right, well that's not so bad then I'm happy 
so if we get 
on this.
I'm not sure about the er I'm not sure what the issues are regarding Aberdeen  Aberdeen 
short spain
Yeah short which is what you suggested  get this plane from  and then we can probably er
And we need to put an end to the rumour about Stansted  I mean it's ridiculous
Well this i that's a lunch club rumour because that one has not been  to  airport
Yeah but that
You what?
You what?
had meetings with  airport
Well I mean that's 
cos  wants to keep the door open
I mean by all means talk, Southend  is the latest one over there so
Stansted  doesn't it?
airport are desperate.
were gonna do it weren't they?
?
Well you can almost swim from there
Just for the opening of the channel time, that'd be perfect timing for us wouldn't it?
Just the sort of wrong time you know
who wants to go somewhere when the channel tunnel  
Well  has got to have something to do hasn't he? to justify his job because I mean he's talked to  in the past, he's talked about everything.
Can we fly er Stansted  or whatever bloody hell towns there are, Stansted  I mean it's Stansted  Stansted every bloody place in  that's got a sodding airport
I don't think I 
It's a bit of poetic licence there but I think  
if an aircraft does come back it would be an ideal way of getting our market share back from  by putting it on the east coast
Well apparently our load facts according to I mean they're sixties all the time so
Apart from where we've only got one or two
Oh well  crap yeah
Yeah what I don't like about  if they're doing
Yes I know
If if they're doing the business on  they could be pulling off , that's what I don't like cos the airport's are too so close together, like  it's too you know too er  Right, shall we revert, I think more sensible to talk about this in the beginning of February yeah?
Yes?
Well, it's getting close 
Well it's up to the managers but I agree with Stansted  four times a day, I think we're losing a lot of traffic because we have nothing between seven in the morning and three o'clock in the afternoon
That that's 
Yeah
the other ones on Saturday and Sunday I mean
was tut-tutting that we shouldn't be using  out of er Stansted airport, they should be jets
What aircraft could we use for it ?
Then  will have twenty seven
That would be too late wouldn't it for that though
Twelve o'clock?
Yeah, fourteen hundred
Well I can't see why we want the other two but I can see 
Yeah this is at weekends.
has already crapped himself about the  visit cause extra work of course but er the er however we should er revert maybe we'll keep an eye on the schedule and things er but we we need to tie it up tight so we don't get a cos I mean what's being said now in the corridors of power is that the schedule is totally sales driven and it's the sales department that's put it together, I am only the administrator, I only I d I completely take my orders from the sales department quote unquote  in front of everybody at the management meeting.
looked around and said well he said looked at me said er well cos he was just about to g throw a wobbly and say, well surely the sales department should be dealing with this, should be should be giving him the information and he he just turned round and gave the aforementioned quote and I just sort of went yes it is.
I said but you do appreciate there are some dead sectors in the timetable that wouldn't w that even the greatest salesmen in the world couldn't sell because they're precisioning sectors.
And he said oh well that will always be the case, that will always be the case.
I said well it shouldn't be the bloody case at all and that's when we got into the debate about er Aberdeen to  er one following half half an hour after the other.
I said well why the why the fuck does it do that?
We don't need two services f for the  from Aberdeen to  one half an hour after the other.
Why doesn't it cut out  airport and fly   one less stop you know.
They said oh well we'll have to look at that you know
Well they're doing that now aren't they?
Take it to  then back through  
according to they're they're they're according to I should say they've adjusted it that it's g it's not gonna go Aberdeen  it's gonna go Aberdeen  or even Aberdeen  direct so which is pretty 
How many years have we been flying that route ?
Right okay erm so there's the ref it's refinement rather than radical changes that we're talking about here really isn't it?
I'm glad I'm glad he said that cos I'm having a bit of a problem on flights for the summer we want more capacity than

I'll wait till one or two people are here before I start.
Sure, do an hour anyway.
Yes, yeah, oh it's quite like old days, isn't it at L S E, with the police outside, and a riot on.
It brings a tear to my eye.
Mind you, it's not, I mean, I thought that black demonstration was pathetic.
D did you see it?
I mean, you know, when I was student at L S E, you know, the front of the, of the demonstration was down at the Law Courts, the back was still in, at, at er, Oxford Street, or something, you know.
We had real demos.
But there we are.
What's happening now, does anybody know?
They're what?
Are they  trying to occupy the 
Well, I wonder how many more are coming?
It's five past, at least it is by my watch.
Yes, cos a lot of people are out in 
Are they?
Right.
So we'll have to carry on 
well, we'll carry on regardless, okay.
Is there a handout from last week?
Yes sorry there is.
Erm, yes, you're quite right, here we are.
Just getting to that.
There's the summary of last week's, okay if you can pass those round.
And while I'm focusing the overhead, this is the er, this is a postcard that er, a student did this course some years ago, sent me from the U S.
Freud, the barber  so how's your mother, he's asking the guy in the chair.
Nearly as bad as singing at you isn't it?
Okay, now erm, today as you realize with feelings of immense relief is the last lecture of the term, so, so what I'm gonna do, is to start talking about the er, so called black books of Freud, the set texts in this, in this course and I'm gonna start talking today about the first, and in some ways, one of the most important of these, Totem and Taboo, and since it's the last lecture of term, and you probably all forget what I said over the Christmas holiday, and won't be able to recall it afterwards, through the alcoholic haze, er what I thought I'd do today, was talk about Totem and Taboo in the way in which it looked backwards rather than forwards.
Totem and Taboo as we'll see is a key book, not only in terms Freud's writings on social sciences, but in Freud's development.
And it, kind of faces both ways, it, it looks back to the early period of the development of Freud's thought that we've already spoken about, and its beginnings back in the eighteen nineties, and in certain other respects, it looks forward, to the kind of revolution that was going to occur after World War Two.
What I've called in my book, Essential Freud, the Second Psychoanalytic er Revolution.
So, it, it's in many ways a, a book that, that looks two ways, as it were, back and, and forward.
And what I want to do today is to talk about Totem and Taboo rather more as it looks back, than as it looks forward, and not just to, to the past in Freud, but to the past in other respects, as you will see.
But first of all this phrase that I used, to introducing it of Serge Mo .,
the black books of Freud.
Moscavisi, is a leading French social psychologist, which those of you doing, em, social psychology or the social representations course, will hear about.
And in his book, er, The Age of the Crowd, Moscavisi refers to what he calls the black books of Dr Freud.
Now, what has he got in mind?
And, and why are they black?
Well, what he has in mind are those very books which are the core of our course, that is Freud's writings on social sciences, religion, society, morality, social philosophy, that, that kind of thing.
That's what he means by the black books of Freud.
But why are they black?
Why should they be denigrated?
Well, Moscavisi's argument, and I must say, I agree with him, is that they tended to be denigrated by both groups who might have taken the biggest interest in them.
They'd been denigrated by the clinical psycho anal analysts who have followed after Freud, and used Freudian therapy, because they're non-therapeutic.
These are er, books which  these, these are books which do not directly concern, therapeutic applications of psychoanalysis, and as a result, many psychoanalysts who have been very fervent in projecting a kind of medical image for psychoanalysis, have tended to regard them as diversions at best, and at worst as, rather er regrettable eccentricities on the part of Freud.
Do you want a handout, Ben?
So, for these people, the clinical psychoanalysts, the black books haven't been very interesting, or they've been actually distracting.
One of them, for example, that we'll be looking next term, Freud's biography, co-written with Bullitt, on Woodrow Wilson, was called, in one of the major reviews, when it finally came out in nineteen sixty seven, the kind of thing that gets psychoanalysis a bad name.
That's how one of the psychoanalytic reviewers referred to that book.
So, so this group, the clinical psychoanalysts, haven't really been, been interested in this, in this kind of writing.
The other group of people who you might have thought, ought to have taken them up and been interested in them, was the wider field of social science, er, writers after all, social scientists, ought to be interested in these, in these books because they're about social science.
Again, there's been an astonishing neglect, not so much I, I have to point out in fairness, of Totem and Taboo, as we'll see.
Totem and Taboo's been pretty notorious.
But putting Totem and Taboo on one side, and as we'll see, it's not really an exception, but in general, most of these books, have been quite astonishingly ignored.
I take, take a summary from there.
One of the best examples of that is,a book dating from nineteen twenty, Group Psychology and the Anal Analysis of the Psychology of the Ego.
You might think that, that's a book that social scientists ought to be primarily interested in.
But in fact, if you look through bibliographies and citations in the literature, you find it's hardly ever cited, and when it is cited, people seldom if ever, seemed to refer to what Freud er says in it, let alone take any notice of it.
If you look at something like the Institute for Group Psychotherapy in London, it's founded on other writings than Freud's writings on Group Psychology.
That's one that they seem to ignore er, rather systematically.
So social science has tended to ignore Freud's books, but of course, it hasn't been able to forget about Freud.
And where Freud has been integrated with, with the social sciences, interestingly enough, what's been integrated is not the black books so much as Freud's writings on child development and other issues, apart from those in these books.
To take one of the most outstanding examples mentioned by Bob Bocock in one of his books, I forget which one it is now, but in one of his books, Bob Bocock er, mentions that the doyen of mid-twentieth century sociology, Talker Parsons, who some of you perhaps may never of heard of, but er, you certainly would have done in the sixties and seventies, because he really was the major fi figure in Anglo-American social theory.
Talker Parsons, says Bocock, draws heavily on Freud, quite consciously, I mean, he says he's gonna integrate Freud in his unification of social, social thought,
so he's completely explicit about drawing on Freud, and yet says Bocock, if you look at the works of Freud, on which Parsons draws, they are mainly his works on child development and clinical psychology.
Parsons seldom, if ever mentions the so- called black books, let alone takes any notice of what they, what they say.
So even when you get a figure, a major figure, not a peripheral one, a central, major figure, in social sciences, like Talker Parsons, who really does take Freud seriously, what does he do?
He treats Freudian psychology as a socialization theory.
He doesn't pay very much attention to the content of these books that we're looking at in this course.
So, so are the kind of reasons why Moscavisi calls them the black books.
They're the side of Freud, that has tended to be ignored, even by the people you would've expected to take the greatest notice of them.
If you ask in general, why social science has been in so selective in its use of Freud, and so one-sided in its interpretation, the answer seems to be, that since the nineteen twenties and up until very recently, Western social science has been primarily dominated by what I would call, cultural determinism, and by that I mean, a school of thought which believes that, to use a term borrowed from one of its founding fathers, Emile Durkheim, social facts have social causes.
In other words, if you want to explain social phenomena, you got to look for the explanations in society.
And cultural determinism is the idea that they way people think and act, is largely determined by their culture, their upbringing, their socialization, their home environment, peer group pressure, this kind of thing, and is not to be looked for in natural causes, in their genes, for example, or in individual psychological experience, as was the prime focus of Freud in psychoanalysis.
So the result is that, where people did take notice of Freud, and here Talker Parsons is the prime example, they interpreted Freud as if he too were a cultural determinist.
And in a minute, we'll see the prime example of that, or one of the prime examples of that.
So social scientists interpreted him as a cultural determinist?
Yes they did.
But, but Freud 
Well, I, I agree.
I mean, how could you do this?
I, I'm as astonished as you are, erm, the, the way in which people like Talker Parsons did it was, they regarded these basic er, personal psychological drives as a kind of putty, that could then be moulded by social pressure.
For example, Parsons explicitly says that, that the drives of the id are socially moulded in the sense that, the forms in which they express themselves are the result of socialization.
I agree with you, this is an astonishing kind of re-interpretation of Freud, but it's, but it's the one that was produced.
I'll give a, a further example of that later in the lecture.
Now, if with, with that in mind, you then turn and look at Totem and Taboo, which was published in nineteen thirteen, first as a series of essays, then as a single book.
In other words, just on the eve of World War One.
If you read Totem and Taboo, and I, by the way I do expect all of you er to read it, because it is one of the set er books, and one of the things I'm not gonna do in these lectures on the black books, is to tell you what the book says, and just kind of repeat it in the lecture.
I mean this is a waste of my time, it, it should be a waste of your time, if you're gonna read the book, and we've already had both classes on Totem and Taboo.
And I must say, I was impressed, I thought the, the presentations were excellent in both classes and we covered a lot of the material very well, I thought.
So I'm not gonna waste everybody's time by just saying, you know, Freud said this, and Freud said that.
I'm going to er, talk about them, rather than, rather than repeat them.
Now, when you read Totem and Taboo, one of the things you may notice, particularly if you've read more recent anthropological social science literature, is that it seems very old fashioned.
There's something rather out of date about the whole style of the book.
It's not the kind of book which you would find being written today, by psychologists, or anthropologists, or social scientists in general.
There's something rather dated er, about it.
And  the reason for this, is that it belongs to a tradition, a fashion if you like, of writing, which went dramatically out of, out of fashion immediately after World War One.
So, at the time, when it was published, most readers would have regarded it as completely up to date in its, in its style and in its presentation.
So it wouldn't have struck anybody in nineteen thirteen as in any way dated.
On the contrary, it would've seemed a very, very up to date, state of the art, kind of book.
Unfortunately, that kind of writing went out of fashion almost instantly, and certainly in the nineteen twenties and thirties, was replaced by a completely different tradition, which has er, influenced our expectations and perhaps explains why the book seems so old fashioned.
In fact, it belongs to a, a great tradition of anthropological writing, represented by people like Sir James Frazer, who was, he was the kind of Talker Parsons of British anthropology prior to World War One.
James Frazer was a Cambridge anthropologist, who wrote er, a number of books, most notably, The Golden Bough, an enormous er, volume, I think it runs to, to thirteen volumes.
One of the few things, erm, that I'm really proud of about myself, is that I've read all of them.
Erm, mainly out of perversity, I do admit, because I must be the only social scientist of my generation who's read all of them from cover to cover.
Erm, but er, it is a very long book, and er, it, it, it is a masterpiece, and if you were to read The Golden Bough, or any part of it, or any other work of Frazer's for that matter, you would immediately be reminded of Totem and Taboo, because Frazer's method is comparative.
It's a great work of comparative sociology.
What Frazer does is to take, in the case of The Golden Bough, rituals and myths, and aspects of folk lore, from this society and that society, all over the world, and compare them to each other.
And his work is informed by a vast reading, and numerous personal contacts, with cultures throughout the world.
So on one page, you'll be reading about what Africans do in Upper Volta, and on the next page, you'll be reading about what the ancient Aztecs did that is similar.
And on, in the next paragraph there'll be something on the Maoris, and on the next one something on the Australian Aborigines, and so on.
This is one of the things that makes the book so long.
It's full of descriptive material.
Page after page, after page, after page, of descriptive material, drawn from all over the world, both published accounts, which Frazer drew on, erm, with er, kind of er, encyclopedic knowledge, but also a lot of personal contacts which he had with people like missionaries, er, colonial administrators, and even er, local people who would with descriptions and er, and facts about the things he was, he was researching.
The result was that Frazer was astonishingly well informed about cultures throughout the world, without ever having visited one of them.
He was, er, what was to be, er, rather patronizingly called, an armchair anthropologist.
He was one of these comparative anthropologists, he wasn't the kind of anthropologist that goes out and lives with er, primitive people for several years, and then comes back and writes an account of them.
That kind of anthropological writing was to become very fashionable after World War One, and was to be made into something of a fet fetish, by people like Bronoslaw Melanovski, here at L S E, Margaret , er, to quote the worst case, er,an an and others.
And as I said, it, it was er, it, it, it, it was, it was denigrated but it had its own strengths, and the Margaret  case er, is, is one of them.
As you probably know, Margaret  perpetrated a huge fraud, I mean, there's no other word for what she did.
She may not have consciously intended all of it, but huge fraud it was, because she purported to give a picture which in, in her own words was, er forever true, that's a direct quote, er forever true, of Samoa, which we know, er, was not at all true.
In fact, Margaret  's account of Samoa was based on interviews through an interpreter, with twenty five adolescent girls, in the back room of the U S Navy er, dispensary, er, on the main island of Samoa during a time when there was considerable anti-American er, feeling.
never lived with the Samoans after the first week.
She tried it for a week, and then, then went to live with the Americans, and said the food was too fattening.
She writes about adolescence among Samoan boys, but we know from examining her field notes, she never inter interviewed one Samoan boy.
Her knowledge of Samoa was based upon what a group of adolescent girls thr told her, through an interpreter, and what can only be called, er, chit-chat and gossip that she picked up from missionaries' wives and people like this.
The, the problem was of course, this was a culture where adolescent girls do not contradict important American ladies who are talking to them through interpreters.
So when Margaret  said to them, er, well you don't know anything about rape, do you?
They said no, Miss , and when she said to them, you never think about rape do you, they said, no Miss , the thought never entered our head.
Derek  who exposed the fraud, took the trouble of consulting the police records, for Samoa, at the time when Margaret , was there, and although Margaret  claimed there was no rape in Samoa, because children were brought up so nicely, in this kind of, tropical paradise that she, that she portrayed in the book, the fact is, according to the police records, there were more rapes in Samoa, while Margaret , than were occurring in New York at the time  was writing, during the nineteen eighties 
and New York has one of the highest rate, sorry rape rates in the world.
So, when I say fraud, I mean it.
Somebody like James Frazer wouldn't have let Margaret  get away with that.
I mean, James Frazer would have read her novel, cos I think that's all you can call it, Coming of Age in Samoa, because it's mainly fictional, he would've read her novelistic account, and then he would have compared it with other accounts, which had been published in German and other languages, and accounts of, of Samoans themselves, and he would have said, look there's something wrong here.
There're tremendous discrepancies between what Margaret  and what these other people say.
Frazer would have known about that, so although he was a much despised armchair anthropologist, at least, he didn't rely on the say-so of a single anthropologist, who claimed to pay paint a picture, forever true.
So although Frazer was doing a kind of anthropology that was later to be rather dis despised, it had something to be said for it.
And in the German tradition of, of psychology, it's worth pointing out that Willhelm  who those of you who are reading psychology I'm sure have, have heard of, er, Willhelm  was a kind of er, slightly older contemporary of Freud's, and I daresay you've heard of him, as the founder of modern scientific psychology.
He, he opened the world's first psychological laboratory in the University of Leipzig, some time in the eighteen eighties, I think I'm right in saying.
Willhelm  is projected as the founding father of modern experimental laboratory based psychology.
But the fact is that  spent most of his life, and most of his writings on an enormous work, even longer than the Golden Bough, er called the Welker Psychologie or Folk Psychology, and this enormous work, it's in twenty three volumes or something, er, of, of, the Welker Psychologie is just like James Frazer's writing and indeed Totem and Taboo.
It's er, a work of comparative, er folk, folk lore and folk psychology.
And these were the very works, The Golden Bough,Welker Psychologie which Freud's contemporaries would have been reading in English and German.
So, when Freud's Totem and Taboo appeared in nineteen thirteen, it would have instantly been compared with these, and that is the genre of er, anthropological writing in which it, it would of been immediately been at home.
So at the time, as I said, it would have seemed a perfectly conventional piece of work, even if to a later generation, like ours,
it now seems rather old fashioned.
Now, as we saw in the, in the, when we discussed this in the class, the central theme of Totem and Taboo, is, is what you might call, to use a, a psychoanalytic jargon term, ambivalence.
Ambivalence was a, a term coined in about nineteen O five, by the Swiss psychiatrist,, and it was taken up particularly by psychoanalysis, and as a psychoanalytic term, it means the co-existence of contradictory thoughts, feelings or emotions about the same thing.
Typically, co-existence of feelings of love and hate.
And as we saw when we discussed the book, Freud gives a number of examples of ambivalence, and the taboos to which they give rise.
Taboo is a Polynesian word, and it means some kind of supernatural law or prohibition which you infringe at your supernatural peril.
If you infringe a taboo something terrible will, will happen to you.
But if you had to explain why you have to obey the taboo, you would probably find it very, very difficult  in the, in the sense that, taboo prohibitions are not like legal rational ones.
If you ask somebody what's the explanation for a fact you may have noticed if you walked down the Strand here just from the School, if you're observant, I'm sure you've, you've all instantly noticed as you walked by, that Strand Street, which is a short street that, sorry, I'm, Savoy Street, which is a short street that leads off the Strand into the Savoy Hotel, is an exception to the rule, that in England you drive on the left, because in Stra in Savoy Street, you drive on the right.
And you may say, well why is this?
Is this just an aberration, if you look at the road markings, you'll see it seems to be official, cos the road is marked out for driving on the right, and the reason is that er, traffic law in this country says, that vehicles drive on the left, except in Savoy Street.
And that is the one street in the, in the whole country, where legally, you are obliged to drive on the other side.
And the reason is, it's for the benefit of taxis, cos, everybody knows, that London taxi drivers are above the law.
If you've ever driven around London you immediately notice this.
These guys do anything, you know, U turns in the middle of anywhere, they, they can do it, you can't.
Well if you do it, they just shout at you.
It's so they can open the door behind them, the passengers getting in on that side of the road.
That has to be the reason.
I, I knew, I, I knew that it was because the, that the taxi cabs had insisted, but  now told us the reason.
Alright, now we know.
That, that's a rational law, okay, it's nothing to do with a taboo, there's not some strange supernatural principle which says, in Savoy Street you drive on the other side, and if you don't you'll be struck down with a fever or ill luck or something like that.
It's a rational, legal principle, okay.
Now that is not a taboo.
A taboo is quite different.
A taboo is something you can't justify or explain, or rationalize as existing for the convenience of taxi drivers.
A taboo is something beyond reason and as we saw, what Freud does in the book is compare it with neurotic prohibitions which are kind of personal taboos, and in fact the sub-title of the book is some points of agreement between the mental lives of savages and neurotics.
And the principal point of agreement is the agreement between the neurotic prohibition, which like the taboo, is something that the neurotic cannot bring themselves to do, fears for the consequences if they do do it, and er, feels constrained by some irrational force er, to obey, even though it isn't rational.
And as we saw, Freud compares these, and explains taboos and neurotic prohibitions as a means of dealing with ambivalence.
Well now, I'll come back to the whole question of ambivalence, er, next term, when I discuss, the what is really the central issue of the book apart from ambivalence, which is the incest question.
I'm saving that, that for next, next term, so I won't say anything about incest now.
What I want to go on to discuss in the, in the last part of the lecture is another way in which Freud's work looks, looks backwards, or seems to look backwards.
And that is, that it seems to look back to the writings of Darwin.
And this is the other aspect of Freud's debt to Darwin which I mentioned at the beginning but said I would hold over for later.
I said, if you remember, in the opening lectures, that in many ways, Freud continues the tradition of Darwin's own writing in psychology, and I explained why earlier.
But I said there was another important aspect to this I would mention later, and now we've reached that point, and I'll explain what it is.
In the closing er, pages of the, of the book, Freud draws on a suggestion of Darwin's, which is that, in the beginning, human beings lived in what Freud calls primal hoard,and the primal hoard social structure is one that Darwin had observed in many mammals.
Today we'd call it a one male group, it's a social structure in which we have a single dominant male, a harem of females  and im sexually immature young.
What's lacking from such groups, is mature,s sexually mature er males apart from the dominant male.
There's only ever one.
And the reason there's only ever one, is that dominant male will not tolerate the presence of other males and drives them out.
So females are retained in these groups, but males are driven out by the dominant male, whom Freud called the primal father.
Now Freud, in trying to the explain the origins of ambivalence about incest, suggests the apparently preposterous and farfetched idea, that in the beginning, human beings lived in these kinds of primal hoards, and er, there was no incest prohibition as such.
There was no taboo on incest, any constraints that did exist on hu on human beings' mating preferences were dictated by the primal fathers.
He had all the women and nobody else had them.
There came a day, said Freud, the sons in frustration, rose up against the primal father, murdered him, ate him, in a grisly act of cannibalism, raped the mothers and sisters, and then having gratified the positive side of, of the negative side of their ambivalence, about the primal father, their hate for him, their desire to supplant him, and so on, were left with the positive side unsatisfied.
Because you see said Freud, they wanted to be like him.
They wanted to emulate him, and do what he was doing, and enjoy his privileges, and they kind of admired him for what he was having and they wanted.
They were ambivalent about him.
And having destroyed him, it was this other side of the ambivalence that came back to haunt them as a sense of guilt and deferred obedience, and out of guilt, they instituted the incest, the incest prohibition.
Now, I don't really want to talk about the details of that now, I want to come back to that next term when I talk about incest.
The one thing that I do want to talk about here, however, in some detail because it's important, is how Freud thinks that this matters to an analysis of modern feelings and attitude to incest.
And Freud's answer is that it matters because human beings have inherited this guilt from the primal crime.
In other words, we have innate feelings of guilt, about er, parricide and murder because we've inherited them from our ancestors in the distant past.
This raises the fraught topic of Freud's Lamarckism.
Okay what is Lamarckism?
Well  Lamarckism is named after er, Jean Baptiste Antoine de Monet, better known to us as Lamarck, and the, the prime notion of Lamarckism, according in Darwin, let's try and get that over there a bit more  is evolution by will.
This is a quote from Darwin erm, summarizing Lamarck,if an animal, for the satisfaction of its needs, makes repeated efforts to lengthen its tongue, it will acquire a considerable length.
E G, anteater  woodpecker.
If it requires to seize anything with the same organ, its tongue will then divide and become forked .
Needless to say, Darwin thought this was, this was nonsense.
The, the other aspect, of what Darwin understood by Lamarckism was progressivism.
Here's Darwin saying in a letter to a friend  Heaven forfend me from Lamarck nonsense of a tendency to progression  and indeed, Darwin's view was the contrary to this, and here's another quote from Darwin,after long reflection, I cannot avoid the conviction that no innate tendency to development exists .
So this is what Darwin and everybody of his time understood by Lamarckism.
Evolution by will and progressivism.
The idea that organisms were constantly being perfected.
The idea was, why has a giraffe got a long neck?
Well, the answer is, giraffes tried to eat food on higher branches of trees, strained upwards, and as they strained they stretched their necks and they passed on their stretched necks to their, to their descendants.
This was a way of perfecting the giraffe.
Well, this is not Darwin's theory of course, and today, we know erm, that this is in fact total nonsense.
However, when people talk about Freud's Lamarckism, they don't mean this.
The problem is, the term Lamarckism has changed its meaning in the course of this century, and now Lamarckism, if you say Lamarckism to most educated people, the first thing they normally think of, is not evolution by will, or, or progressivism, but inheritance of acquired characteristics.
Lamarckism assumed that as an animal developed a longer neck or bigger muscles or something like that, through practice, it could pass these on to its, to its progeny.
Acquired characteristics could be, could be inherited.
The musical genius of the Bach family for instance, which was so noticeable, that in that part of Germany where the Bachs lived, the word Bach which actually means brook, started to mean musician, because there were so many of them, er, that kind of inheritance of musical ability, was often explained in the past, as inheritance of acquired characteristics.
The idea was if you work hard at learning music, your children will kind of be born with, with an innate erm, capacity for it.
And er, of course, today we know that this is nonsensical, you cannot er, inherit acquired characteristics.
The point is, this was not known, when Freud was writing Totem and Taboo.
At least it wasn't known to, to very many people at that time.
It certainly wasn't known to Darwin.
And Darwin explicitly did believe, in the inheritance of acquired characteristics.
Darwin did not understand the principles of er, genetics.
Erm, they had been discovered by Mendel but they remained more or less unnoticed until the beginning of this century, when they were independently rediscovered.
And it wasn't till considerably later that the modern doctrine associated with er Weismann of the distinction between what Weismann called the germ line, and the, and the body was fully established.
What Weismann realized was that nothing that happens to your body can be translated back into your genes as it were.
When Weismann first put it forward at the beginning of the century, it was highly controversial, and most scientists did not believe it.
The reason they didn't believe it is that up, up until then practically everybody believed in the inheritance of acquired characteristics.
Weismann actually carried out an experiment.
He bred mice, and every generation he chopped their tails off, and then bred from the tailless mice for dozens of generations, and of course, they were still being born with tails.
Erm  Isaac Azimov writes er, rather amusingly about this, he says why did, why did Weismann bother, he said Weismann was Jewish, of course, Weismann knew that since time immemorial, er, Jewish little boys have been having their foreskins chopped off, Weismann only had to look at his own children, when they were born, to see that even Jewish little boys are born with foreskins.
And of course, they are.
Well, it's a, it's a, it's a case I suppose of, of science revealing the obvious, but er, of, of course it's a fact today, we know why it's a fact.
Today we know that, that er genes, er give rise to the organism, the experience of the organism cannot be translated back into genes.
The  one fact in particular shows that's totally impossible.
If you're female, although not, not if you're male, all your genes were copied before you're born.
In the case of er, female mammals, their D N A is copied while they're still an embryo.
So if you're a woman, all the genes you hand on to your children were copied before you yourself were born, in the precursors of your egg cells.
So nothing that happens to you in the course of your life can possibly change your genes, because they've already been copied.
Admittedly men produce er, erm, sex cells all the time, but again, there's no evidence whatsoever to suggest that any experience a man has can be copied into his genes as it were.
So although we know this today, very few people knew it in nineteen thirteen, and er, nobody knew it before the turn of the century.
So when people talk about Freud's Lamarckism, they're not talking about what Darwin and Freud understood as Lamarckism, evolution by will, with progressive improvement, what they're talking about is what everybody believed to be true, the inheritance of acquired characteristics.
For example, Darwin er, remarks, and here I quote,even in the first edition of the Origin of Species, I distinctly stated that great weight must be attributed to the inherited effects of use and disuse, with respect both to the body and the mind .
In the Descent of Man, published in eighteen seventy one, he says  some intelligent actions, as when birds on oceanic islands first learn to avoid man, after being performed during many generations, become converted into instincts and are inherited.
The vocal or organs , says Darwin,would have been strengthened and perfected through the principle of the inherited effects of use .
Again some instincts have been developed through long continued and inherited habits.
Other highly complex ones have been developed by the preservation of various pre-existing instincts.
That is natural selection.
Even where Darwin does mention natural selection, he also mentions inheritance of acquired characteristics.
Erm, paralleling it.
Indeed, he goes on to say, that some physical changes produced in the nerve cells, or nerves which are habitually used, can hardly be doubted.
For otherwise, it is impossible to understand how the tendency to certain acquired movements is inherited.
It was necessary to show that at least some of them might have been first acquired through the will, in order to satisfy a desire, or to relieve a disagreeable sensation.
In other words, when he was talking about psychology, and these are quotes from Darwin's Expression of the Emotions, Darwin not only refers to acquired characteristics, which he believes in, but he even refers to evolution by will.
And er, concludes from the observation of his own children  I suspect that the vague and very real fears of children, which are quite independent of experience, are inherited effects of real dangers, and abject superstitions during ancient times .
So there's no doubt, that Darwin both invoked the inheritance of acquired characteristics, and was even prepared to talk about erm, Lamarck nonsense, not to do with progressivism admittedly, but to do with evolution by will.
Now you might say, er, that, that, that's very paradoxical, why should Darwin have been prepared to consider Lamarckism, even evolution by will Lamarckism in psychology, when he, when he wouldn't accept it, for instance, in talking about the, the lengthening of the necks of giraffes.
Well, I think the answer to that is  it didn't seem so farfetched.
Look, look at it this way.
If you look at yourself in the mirror, no amount of willing can remove er, fat around your waist.
You know, no matter how often you say it, every day and in every way I'm getting thinner and thinner.
It won't work.
You can will as much as you like, will does not make fat go away, because there's no direct link between a will and, and, and fat obviously.
You can't will your fat away, or your arms longer, or, or, or yourself sh a different shape, it, it just won't work.
So, so that's clearly ridiculous.
However, there is a sense in which will can make fat go away.
If you stand in front of a mirror and look at yourself and say, okay I'm just too fat, I'm going on a diet, and you have sufficient willpower to stick to your diet, you will lose weight, so when you're talking about behaviour, it's not so stupid to think that will is associated with the final outcome, because we know that people can will things which have, which have affects on their emotions and their, and their behaviour and their state of mind.
And that I think, is why Darwin was prepared to countenance Lamarckism in psychology whereas he never was when he was talking about physical adaptations.
You can't will your fat away just by thinking about it, but you damn well can go on a diet.
And as we all know, the extent to which you succeed in your diet, is a question of willpower.
So I think that when Darwin was writing about psychology, he became a Lamarckian, in just about every sense of the word, because will is related to things that people do and think.
Now, if you then go back to Freud, what you can immediately see, is that things are not as simple as we, as we may have thought.
Freud's  ideas are often rejected as being Lamarckian, and therefore wrong, and Darwin is, is often opposed to this, as being right.
An example of this is found in, in a recent book by Richard Dawkins, where, and here I quote Dawkins, Dawkins says  Lamarckians are traditionally fond of calluses , that is you know, erm, hardened skin, thickened skin, like on the sole of your feet, and he contrasts these Lamarckians who like callouses, with the Darwinian, who he says has a ready answer, in terms of natural selection.
The, the opposition here is between the Lamarckians who are wrong, and think you can inherit er, an acquired callous from your ancestors, and the Darwinian who is right, who believes that callouses are related to natural selection.
Okay er, according to Darwin, and here I quote,in infants long before birth , says Darwin,the skins on the soles of the feet is thicker than on any other part of the body, and it can hardly be doubted that this is due to the inherited effects of pressure during a long series of generations .
In other words, Darwin here was being a Lamarckian.
The problem is that with the benefit of hindsight, we kind of excused and purged Darwin's Lamarckism.
And we've come to understand Darwinism, as opposed to Lamarckism, and ruling it out.
But the truth is, that in his own day, Darwin was something of, of a Lamarckian.
He was definitely a Lamarckian in the sense that he believed in inherited, in the inheritance of acquired characteristics, and as we've seen, in writing about psychology, he even conceded something of, of Lamarck's idea about evolution by will.
So the idea that historically there was Lamarck and there was Darwin, and they were two totally mutually exclusive schools of thought is simply untrue.
The truth is, that Darwin was something of, of a Lamarckian in his own lifetime.
Modern Darwinists of course have er, completely rejected Lamarckism.
Richard Dawkins writes very well about this, I mean, he makes complete, he shows that Lamarckism is total nonsense, er, which of course it is.
But this is with the benefit of hindsight.
It's all very well for Richard Dawkins to be wise after the event, er, Freud, writing in nineteen thirteen, had no such benefit.
So it seems to me that the, the problem is that, that Freud's explanation of how human beings acquired an innate, evolved sense of guilt, about murdering their relatives and committing incest, tends to be rejected as Lamarckism.
This is the example that I wanted to quote in erm, in er, answer to er, the question you asked me earlier.
I forget what it was now, but anyway, now I know what the  answer was going to be .
The answer was going to be that er, just as we look back on Darwin and don't notice his Lamarckism, in, in a sense, Darwin wasn't as Darwinian as we might now think, so we've probably got a picture of Freud which is, er, more Freudian as it were, than Freud really was.
Freudian in the modern world, has come to mean a belief, predominantly, that human behaviour is influenced by early experience.
That's what most people understand Freudian psychology to be.
This is what Talker Parsons interpreted it to be in building Freud into his sociological system as a theory of socialization.
Most people think of Freudianism, that, that way.
That Freudianism is all about the, how the environment, the home environment, early experiences shape human psychology.
Now the fact is, if you read Totem and Taboo, whatever you think, and how ever preposterous the idea may seem, what Freud actually says at the end of that book is not that, what Freud says is, there is an in innate, inborn sense of guilt about murdering near relatives like fathers and committing incest.
This is an, a product of evolution, admittedly Freud uses a Lamarckian scenario to explain how it got there, but the fact is that Freud insisted on it.
It seems to me that, what, what's tended to happen throughout the greater part of this century, is people have read this book, they've said oh look, this is Freud's Lamarckism, we know this is all wrong, so let's forget all that because it's not essential to Freud.
It is not essential to Freud, to believe that people have an innate sense of guilt about murdering their near kin, or, or committing incest.
So, we'll forget all that, and we'll just assume that what Freud really meant, was that people have sense of guilt because they've been socialized to have it.
And indeed, this has become the dominant twentieth century dogma about incest avoidance.
Freud's theory was taken up by the French structuralist, Claude  who developed it into a cultural determinist theory, which said that er, animals commit incest, human beings don't.
Human beings don't do it, because of rules which, which are the result of socialization.
This theory is factually wrong, because animals do not commit incest.
For example, if given a choice, between mating with a near relative, and mating with a non-relative, a mouse will choose the non-relative.
And throughout most of the animal, and indeed the plant world, incest is regularly and systematically avoided.
So, to say as people like  says that, incest is part of, is natural as it were, and incest avoid avoidance is cultural is, is really wrong.
The rule may be cultural, but the behaviour certainly isn't.
Furthermore, to imagine that he's repeating what Freud said, and claiming that Freud really believed that our sense of guilt about incest and murdering relatives was the result of, of socialization is again simply not true.
What Freud actually says in Totem and Taboo is the opposite of that, what he actually says is that these feelings are innate, and they are part of an evolutionary heritage.
Now, I admit that it can't be, it can't have come about in the way that Freud says.
That, that, that's definitely true.
Freud's Lamarckian scenario makes no more sense than any other, than any other kind of Lamarckian scenario does.
The point I'm making however, is that a, a fairer way to judge this book, might be to say, not well let, let's reject everything in it that's Lamarckian, cos it doesn't fit with our modern prejudices, a fairer way, might be to read it the way we read Darwin's works, where there is also considerable Lamarckenis Lamarckism, and say well, this is er, this is an understandable error, given the poor state of knowledge that people had about genetics at the time, and then try and make sense of it.
People don't reject Darwin's book on the emotions just because it's, it's rather heavily tainted with Lamarckism.
And it seems to me, one shouldn't reject er, Totem and Taboo er for the same reason.
Well, at that point we've got to three o'clock and the end of the term, erm  I'll take up Totem and Taboo, and its more forward lis looking aspects in the first lecture of er, next term, and I wish you all a happy Christmas, and new year, and hope you have a good, a good vacation and look forward to seeing you here again, the first Thursday of next term.
Thanks.

Welcome back.
The body count in that most British of places a fish shop, was nine dead.
By tonight the terrorists' toll was seventeen, but the city was over the water, Belfast, and even the politicians were running out of words to express their horror.
Today the British and Irish Prime Ministers debated whether to talk to the terrorists.
Should we, or should they just be rounded up and locked up?
John Taylor, Ulster Unionist MP for Strangford.
In nineteen seventy two the I R A attempted to assassinate you and you were a very very lucky man,yo your body was was absolutely riddled with bullets.
Erm th thank god you're here today.
Yeah.
Er what's the atmosphere like in Belfast, what's it been like this week?
Well the atmosphere is very bad indeed in Belfast because er we had this before of course twenty years ago we had various bad situations but it hasn't been so bad in recent years, but this last fortnight, er we've had U V F killings, then we had this terrible bomb by the I R A killing the protestants in the Shankhill Road.
The U V F which is now a much larger terrorist organization has responded by killing catholics and there's tremendous fear now in both communities, there used to be just fear in the protestant communities, they were being attacked by the I R A, but now as the Cardinal  has said there's very big fear in the catholic community as well.
There's re the tension really has
There's what I have called a parity of fear,
Yeah.
in both communities now and this is creating tension.
So what's the way ahead with dealing with the terrorists?
Now.
Well er y it's you cannot solve it by a security policy alone.
Yo first of all you must distinguish Northern Ireland from other ar territories in the world where there has been terrorism.
Like in South Africa or like in Cyprus or Kenya.
In those areas, the people didn't have votes.
Palestine they didn't have votes.
P L O.
We'll come to this but briefly t 
In Northern Ireland, we have democracy and 
Yeah 
ninety per cent of the people vote against the terrorists,
Sure
they don't want anything to do with it .
So what's the way ahead against the terrorists?
The way ahead is to intern the terrorists from 
Wi 
both communities
without trial?
Oh yes, without trial, from both communities and secondly alongside it and in parallel introduce a new political initiative in Northern Ireland, to get the catholics and protestants involved in the administration of their own country where they live.
And why by interning terrorists, you would include Gerry Addams for example?
Definitely yes.
How many years  
One second I'll come to you, we've got more talking to do before I do come to you.
Clare Short look at that picture there.
We've got Gerry Addams who er wanted earlier in the week if we were to believe what seemed now like  to be sitting at a table discussing peace, there he is carrying a bomber's coffin.
How can that man ever be taken seriously, should he not be locked up?
I think to talk like that is to just to want to let it go on and on and on.
W we tried internment before, it caused a massive escalation of violence cos you never, you get  families are angry, it escalates the numbers who are committed to terrorism, last time it was just the Republicans, if we did it on both sides it would just escalate terrorism.
It would be a disaster.
What we also have is the British and Irish government, John Major and Gerry Addams all talking seriously about a possible peace initiative.
How can he be 
taken seriously when he's doing that?
I'm not interested whether you take him seriously or not.
I am interested whether there's a possibility of bringing an end to the violence in Northern Ireland.
And all serious people who regret all the people who've died and been maimed should be interested in that.
And just playing games with that picture takes us nowhere.
Everyone can den denounce each other and we can go on forever
It's not games.
and it'll never get better.
It's not games.
It is a reality.
He, that is a photo opportunity that Gerry Addams took and it was on the front page of everybody's newspaper .
Everybody in the country knows that .
John Taylor.
Well  what I think what Clare forgets, I know Clare comes from a a republican background,in South Armagh, and she s probably sees it only from that point of view .
I come from Birmingham actually.
I know but your family are from that
I come from here.
Yeah but I'm thinking of your background, where your roots are.
You've got to s remember there are two sets of terrorists in Northern Ireland now.
Not just republican, we have loyalists as well and the loyalists have the potential for being the bigger and more effective of the two, and if we let the I R A to continue without interning them, you are going to have the situation deteriorating in the way which you don't want and I don't want, and you're going to end up as the chief constable of the R U C said a few weeks ago with Dublin being bombed.
That is what's ahead of us and we've got to warn people that that is ahead and try and take action now before it gets out of control.
And that's why the Unionist parties have a duty to be more interested in this possible peace.
Lots of the people who vote for you have been hurt and maimed and injured.
You are all saying we're not interested, we're not interested.
We are interested .
Maybe this could take us somewhere, and your people would and you you yourself were nearly killed.
Yes I never  
Surely we should try and see
I don't know what you're talking about,we of course we're interested in peace, we want peace.
We 
No you're not you denounce it all the time.
had talks, round table talks at Stormant this year and John Major hardly ever appeared, he stayed in Strasbourg.
He's he puts more into talking with the I R A and Sinn Fein than he does with the Unionist community who at the end of the day are the majority in Northern Ireland .
Let's go back to the terrorists just er just just briefly , Clare whatever you say, that's a p potent picture and it was a deliberate photo opportunity.
What was he doing, what's his thinking there?
You're an acknowledged expert on the I R A Tim Pat .
Well I think even if you don't do it as one christian or as one human being to another, even if you do it in the view of a general who sleeps with the enemy general's picture over his bed and you've gotta try and think into this man's mind, remember he's from West Belfast, he's from the area that this man was killed in.
He'd already made a very courageous statement condemning him
No he didn't condemn him.
at the time.
He didn't condemn it.
I didn't interrupt you now 
Yes.
I know your notions of democracy are based on your former Stormant but don't interrupt me .
But I'm correcting you, yeah,yeah no he didn't condemn it he did not condemn it.
I don't like  misrepresenting what he's saying .
He he he condemned that man
No he didn't.
who is dead, he condemned another of his followers who was lying badly injured in hospital, like this unfortunate man here who was blinded, and I can understand why Clare feels badly about this tabloid television, it's not a time for exciting, you know I everybody er is appalled by any bereavement or misery.
Let me finish.
He did all that he did all that at the same time  if he is go 
you can't make those accusations when he stepped beneath the coffin for two minutes to deliberately have his photograph taken.
Th the fact of the matter is that at the next general election, the Stormant or the Westminster election, Gerry Addams will win that seat.
Not because he carried that coffin but because the people on his side are ravaged, their nerve ends are torn raw, and if he 
d backed off and didn't support a dead fellow Irishman he'd be dead politically 
Is Gerry Addams 
and the peace initiative would be dead, and that's what we should be talking about not making cheap debating  
Is Gerry Addams a man of peace?
He is,
he certainly is yes.
Oh.
John Taylor.
Gerry Addams is a man who supports the murder campaign by the I R A terrorists, always defends it and he didn't condemn the killing of the protestants on the Shankhill Road by that I R A man, he carried that I R A man's body at the funeral, what he said was it was unfortunate that innocent people were killed.
That's what he said, that's a different from condemning it .
shattered by  
Mm.
Shattered.
But he didn't condemn it.
Martin Dillon another expert on the on the on the terror campaign, and also 
there's an arm a general army council of the  I R A 
right at the top that's in the  yeah?
Well are you asking wh what is Gerry Addams?
And what's his position in th is he on the I R A council ?
L l l let's try to explain for for an audience that's looking at television pictures here and what we're talking about.
In Sinn Fein and the I R A there is an umbrella organization and we've gotta be careful legally here.
The organization is called the Republican Movement.
The Republican Movement has general orders which apply to everyone within that movement.
That movement is a mixture of Sinn Fein which is the political dimension to the struggle and the I R A.
Now my, I mean I would have to say, I mean very clearly, that they're inseparable.
I mean in the sense that their objective is the same, then it's the same organization.
Now for me to say that Gerry Addams is a member of the I R A, I'm not gonna to do that.
What I will say is that Gerry Addams is a member of the Republican Movement.
You can judge for yourself.
Is the Republican Movement the I R A, I would have to say logically of course it's the I R A.
Would Gerry Addams be like a large company, a director of that of an organization, a large company?
You'd have to say of course he's a director of that company .
Right, right I know what you're saying and you've got to be very very careful.
Sir William Ross, you're an MP for East Londonderry.
Erm internment is something that you believe in.
Now surely if you're gonna intern the leaders and m might they include Gerry Addams and we we could talk about the other side, we could talk about the Loyalist er paramilitaries equally, surely there's just another wave gonna come along because it's a never ending assembly line of terrorists, so what's the point?
Well the reality is of course that Clare has already told us that internment didn't work the last time, it was badly done the last time.
It worked on every other occasion when it was tried both th north and south and was used very widely in the republic in the past to behead the terrorist organizations.
And that is what we're talking about, we're talking about taking out the two or three hundred really active people, the control and the command structure of the I R A and of the other terrorist organizations and putting them in.
But then Tim Pat  do n other active people not just come along?
That's exactly what we heard  saying, we're bombing civilians to take out the control and command structure.
It wasn't they took three hundred people the last time and now he's talking about three hundred.
You'd only just multiply the thing, you'd spill petrol on an already burning flame.
And the situation's very tense at the moment anyway and it would just
But the intern I have to say this, this is  I R A.
There wouldn't be an I R A only for internment the last time.
Apart from the fact they got the wrong ones, as Clare said 
they s you know they just multiplied all through the place .
That's nonsense, that's  nonsense 
When it was done before in the republic, you wanna quote history, you wanna quote it accurately, it was done with the agreement of a sovereign people.
The whole of the people in the republic agreed within their own undivided , this is a divided country, a divided community rather, and such a vote  
Has been succ there has been su there have been successes though haven't there ?
No  such a vote of no confidence has never yet been passed in a west European state.
A British government said they were so undemocratic, they took away that, parliament.
It hasn't been restored, there's a bloody vacuum.
What is needed is a constitutional 
political solution, not internment.
John Taylor.
Well, I I still look ahead, and I recognize the loyalist paramilitaries have now the potential to become the major force.
And they will be bombing Dublin, and once that starts Dublin will be more anxious to agree with us to have internment in both Northern Ireland and the Republic.
And it's just a pity 
Now  
it's just a pity that they're sitting back in their armchairs in Dublin thinking they're immune from the situation that's developing before our eyes.
The chief constable comes from Dublin  
and the republic in fact spend three and half times as much per capita as is spent by the United Kingdom in trying to restrain terrorism .
Yeah,oh yes I agree  
What about all this talk of bombing Dublin, what about all th 
explain to you, this is a  this is  
No it's not this is what the chief constable of the R U C, the Dublin man that you've just mentioned said it, he said it.
I walked through Dublin in nineteen seventy four in May, the worst single atrocity that has happened was the bombing of Dublin .
That's right, that's right 
Thirty five people who were killed that day and remember that on Yorkshire television it's been established that there were and this is something you gotta  over, people like you had got the ear of the Special Branch and murky people in the establishment of the  
the murky people  I R A  
were let off the leash and  with 
Yeah, yeah 
that help without it they wouldn't.
What about these threats of bombing Dublin, the the the loyalist paramilitaries getting the upper hand as John Taylor is saying there, is bombing Dublin a real
Le let's deal
possibility?
Let's deal with that first then you can deal with what you wanna deal with.
Is bombing Dublin a real possibility?
Erm of course there's a real possibility.
I mean the one thing that has happened in recent times, and I don't like  prophecies so, I don't wish to be a part of one, let's be clear about that, I'm doing this as an analyst.
Erm the loyalist paramilitaries have become much more sophisticated than they've ever been in their history.
Erm I would say that in the past the loyalist paramilitaries, apart from the obvious thing which was easy going out just and killing catholics as they've been doing recently.
Erm they've developed along the lines of the provisional I R A, they've developed a sales structure.
They're much more sophisticated than they've ever been in the past.
They're much more capable probably of conducting a campaign 
They've no political wing like the I R A they do they?
No it it is probably one of the difficulties if it ever 
comes to to negotiate with them.
What I'm actually saying is, they are a very serious threat.
Now if I could just come back to one other thing, cos Tim Pat was raising it.
Erm internment erm I think is always a very dangerous option, because it presupposes there is no political solution.
And really it's up to politicians.
I mean the politicians I think have failed the people of Northern Ireland.
On both sides of the water.
It was never on the agenda in Britain which I think was one of the major problems in the early days.
I think the army really was the fall guy.
I mean the army was left to do a job which politicians should have done.
And the army opted for internment.
And really it has to be said and has to be said historically that I mean the army in a way was left with a job which politicians should have sorted out before it got to that stage.
We're gonna to speak to some army people Martin.
We're gonna have to 
And that is als ,I'm just saying that it's a very dangerous 
Right.
thing today to suggest that there is a security solution.
It presupposes that the intelligence people have the information now,hold on the 
Well come on, they know who they are, they know who they are, they must do 
I R A are bombing this country unfortunately, they've no right to bomb it.
And the fact is I mean nobody seems to be able to stop them.
And it goes on.
Now if the intelligence community is that good, let's be very clear about it, it would be easy, and to sa suggest that internment might make it easier, I think is wrong.
Who's going to take charge of internment?
The R U C or the army?
Let's speak to erm we talked about the soldiers there, let's speak to some soldiers.
First of all erm a a man who served over there.
Er Ray, you were a victim of the I R A, can you tell me what happened?
Yes, erm I was a victim from er an I R A bomb.
Erm we were on patrol, just a normal patrol in er in Belfast and unfortunately I lost my sight and two very good friends of mine were killed, and another was er blinded in one eye and severe injuries to his leg.
What was your patrol doing?
Just normal patrols, looking after the people of Belfast.
And of course, when this all happened, and I'm listening to what people are saying tonight, it's it's sort of making me feel a bit sick what they're saying.
Why is that?
One supports that I lay in the street looking and waiting for a a man they mention tonight and that man is a well known killer of British soldiers.
And I'm now asked 
Which man?
I'm now asked to respect him.
And I'm sorry, I cannot respect a man
The man who's name has been mentioned tonight?
Tonight.
I cannot say that anybody can respect a man in this country and to run for their country as a well known I R A supporter.
And he's up there on one of your pictures.
Mhm.
And I cannot
What would then, what would be your solution as a soldier who served over there, a victim of terrorism, what would your solution be?
I see many ways of a solution but there is never positive solution, but I feel that they are putting units into this country, like  they can bomb anywhere they like in this country.
There's been a car bomb in London tonight as well.
I didn't here that.
Mm.
I'm very sorry if people got injured.
You're getting innocent people, men and women killed, children killed and we're expected to accept this.
I feel they're putting units into this country, why not us put a unit into their country, not to kill their women and children, but to kill the people who's actually doing it, whether they be I R A, U D A, knock 'em out, let's have 'em out once and for all.
Well, well you could say that's a very er a purely e em emotional er response and you can understand that, but I want to speak to to you er Colonel Michael , you're with the Royal Green Jackets.
Now never mind the rights and wrongs 
I was was with them
You were with them yes.
Never mind the rights of wrongs of what Ray said,
Mm
er w I I suspect you don't agree with what Ray said.
I don't.
But how long would it take for the army, the S A S or whatever to go in and erm clean up the situation as it were?
In purely practical terms ?
Well that that is an entirely hypothetical question.
But in purely practical terms.
but I I'm sorry b if you would let me answer.
What I would wish to make absolutely clear is I don't believe that in the context of a liberal democracy that is even remotely a possibil it's a possibility but it's not an acceptable solution .
You've made that clear, you've made that absolutely clear.
But yes it could be done, but even if it were done, and you were quite right, the the the intelligence is insufficiently precise to actually hit everybody.
We might be able to write off fifty per cent or something like of that order, er of of of er known terrorists, but one would not be able to solve the situation even using those methods and you would create martyrs, you would merely exacerbate the situation, quite apart from the legal er horror, I mean i it is it is inconceivable in in in Britain, that sort of action.
But even if it were, in would be ineffective.
The the the intelligence is insufficient.
Can I just now you predicated that answer by saying this cannot be countenanced in a normal liberal democracy.
Now there's seventeen people died in in Northern Ireland this week.
Mm.
Are we talking about a normal liberal democracy?
The fact that some members of that democracy, some individuals, flight its rules, doesn't mean that those, the vast majority, the ninety nine point nine per cent of us, follow their example.
No we must er abide by the rule of law, as we always have done, as our trad as our traditions demand and as most of the people in this room I'm sure in their hearts would wish to.
Can I ask you, when the army went in in nineteen sixty nine, did you go in then?
In sixty nine?
I wasn't as I was there in the early seventies f for my first  and then subsequently .
Right, do you think do you think did the army consider they were going into a colonial situation?
No I don't think that's an accurate er characterization.
I think the army thought they were going in to a situation where they could they could help, they saw themselves if you like as the referees er as a neutral party in between two sides.
That situation only lasted for about a year and of course soon er the army was portrayed as the enemy, particularly by the I R A and the republican party and the republican population.
I take part of a thesis and I think  I mean a lot of it is is very very important in terms of even considering internment, in relation to the whole intelligence problem.
I think when the army went in that the army because there was no political direction from Westminster, we've seen the seats in the House of Commons, I mean nobody's there when Sir Patrick  's talking about Northern Ireland, which I think is absolutely disgraceful, when they're talking about their salaries they're there.
Erm and so the army was left in a position where all it could do really was rely on its own history.
And so therefore all it could do was look at Aden and Palestine and Cyprus, in terms of actually, I'm talking about the practicalities of 
Mhm.
you know, how an army actually behaves and how it thinks.
As mercenaries do.
Well internment worked in Aden and Palestine and Cyprus, internment worked there.
But the methods  
The methods they used were were the same tactical methods
Yes
used in colonial situations.
Ab absolutely, absolutely.
Some hands are going up, some hands are going up.
I want to find out what people are saying, yes I'll come to you in just a second about internment.
What would you like to say?
Over here.
Er the MP er the terrorists of today in further generations, the only way to stop them is to stamp out the supplier of er their arms and their money, as without th er the guns and the bombs er the edge have gone.
The edge has er gone off terrorism.
Now you're from the Troops Out movement.
You've been dying to speak all night.
Perhaps you could address your point, cos I know you want the troops out, you think that'll be the key role to all the problems in Northern Ireland.
What would you say to Ray?
I think er it's tragic what happened to Ray and I think it's also tragic what's happening to people.
You're talking about sending the S A S in.
The S A S are already there and there are people that have been shot dead, unarmed people, civilians who've been shot dead by the S A S.
I think 
That's rubbish.
that the calls for internment
That's just not true.
I I think the calls 
It's not true?
for internment 
Of course it's not true no.
I haven't finished
The S A S have operated in Northern Ireland and have been for a long time.
But they have operated against terrorists, they those terrorists have committed a crime and through intelligence the S A S have been in situ and have immediately shot those criminals.
So the S A S are there?
Can I just say 
Ray.
Yes they are there.
Yes
that er
Ray wants to say something.
Yes I I haven't said anything 
Then you can come back.
My point is, you heard the  say how well equipped the U D A are.
Now that's the other side.
So therefore if you pulled the troops out tomorrow, what would happen tomorrow?
Can I answer?
Well I'm waiting for you.
Oh sorry I thought the  
No you've  you carry on.
Oh sorry.
The er the troops w have been there for twenty five years nearly.
And there is still no signs of peace.
The talk of internment and sending in the S A S is an admission of political failure.
Now every opinion poll in er Britain for the last twenty two years has said that they believe that has shown that the people believe that the troops should not be in Northern Ireland .
Right let's just another little er shout from this gentleman here.
What would you like to say?
Irrespective of the things that are being said tonight, I think we've gotta look at the reasons for all these bombings and shootings.
And it's for p for p for publicity..
Irrespective of the things that are being said tonight, I think we've gotta look at the reasons for all these bombings and shootings.
And it's for p for p for publicity.
Publicity, the er the media should get out and not report all these er  .
Oh starve them of publicity,th that'll .
Surely, in the in the long run 
Can I just say on the  
John Taylor yeah.
Very briefly on the British troops.
First of all British troops have been in in Northern Ireland for a hundred and ninety five years since eighteen hundred.
They didn't just go in twenty three years ago as somebody suggested.
Secondly, think what would happen if you took the troops out of Northern Ireland tonight.
You would a Bosnia immediately, it would break up, send the U N in, look what it's done in Bosnia .
We are we are we are running out of time, John Taylor John Taylor I'll come to you in a second, John Taylor shush, shush you've had your shout, John Taylor 
I've had hardly any shout  
Be be quiet please, John Taylor .
Yes.
You talked about Bosnia there
Yeah.
In Bosnia, Dr David Owen is sitting at the conference table with people who've committed genocide every day.
Surely the logic in that is that we sh we should sit down 
the British government should sit down with Gerry Addams.
If you take the British army out of Northern Ireland tonight, the U D A would clean up, you would have real civil war, it would be worse than ever, we have to be thankful that catholics and protestants 
If Owen is talking , if Owen is talking 
Quiet, be quiet, be quiet  
be a nice, be a nice man, be a nice man .
I am asking this man a question, you have some manners please.
If David Owen is talking to terrorists, why don't the British government talk to Gerry Addams?
They did and look where it got them.
They did that in nineteen seventy two, that's right 
In nineteen seventy two.
That was a long time ago, there's been a lot of water under the bridge, why not talk again ?
And a lot of blood under it as well.
But I, the reality is this 
sorry.
that if you don't have internment, what are you going to do?
Put up with what's going on, because the reality is, there's nobody in Northern Ireland prepared to stand up now and give evidence in open court, because if they do they're dead before the week is done.
Or the next day.
And time after time after time, there have been cases prepared and whenever they came to court, there was nobody prepared to go into that courtroom .
Nicky can I make a point?
Excuse me.
Well he's one of the people who's prepared to recognize the English, the Scottish and the Welsh on this Ireland,
Oh now you see why we can't get peace.
I was gonna say this Nicky.
Nothing serious.
My my gran 
My grandparents and my grandchildren have this in common.
They both spoke about the Irish troubles.
It's time to stop that.
It's time to say the Irish problem is not impossible, it can be settled between the two sovereign governments, it's time for these people to stop saying, Ulster says no, that is no solution.
briefly 
We've gotta talk to everybody
Briefly, briefly tonight er Reynolds and Major issued this statement which said all those claiming a serious interest in advancing the cause of peace in Ireland should renounce  of or support for violence if and when such a renunciation of violence has been made and sufficiently demonstrated, new doors could open, do you think the I R A might well respond positively to that ?
was done in the time of  which set up the Republic of Ireland, get the I R A to declare a truce and talk to them and I think  
Hang on.
The I R A if they're asked to will?
They could deliver a truce, they would deliver a truce, and then they should be spoken to.
Okay thanks very much indeed that's all we've got time for, thank you.

The er  gentleman said, Yes approved yesterday, Mr 
Good yes they nor they normally let you know there and then the the 
Right.
the outcome I mean  it's very rare that we do get a refusal .
Yes.
It was  rather comical actually because he said er, You must now go and make an appointment to see Mr , and I said, Well actually we already ha 
We already have.
He said,I'll catch him out on this one .
.
Yes sometimes when we get people that are anxious to start immediately you know we make the 
Of course.
interview there  there and then even before 
Mhm.
we've actually got the the letter back saying, Yes we can sign 
Yeah.
you  onto the scheme.
Right, okay  like  schemes there is quite a bit of paper work to do
Okay.
So this is actually  this first form here is an application for the scheme
Yeah.
so if you want to start sort of scribing 
Okay.
away, and if there are any particular  queries on  that you want to ask, please do.
In the meantime I shall  complete one or two of the others.
Okay.
In which case I will suspend this until the talking starts.
One query only.
Yes.
Erm  will my business have any links with another business?
Erm 
In the context of the Enterprise Allowance Scheme  no no no no .
Probably not.
Yeah  .
.
Because I  I wondered wha to what extent those  those links were in that I shall have  obviously informal links an and talks with other people who are doing similar things  than what 
Yeah, yeah.
I'm doing, but they're not formal business links .
No no.
So that'd  no that that's quite alright.
Please check and make sure I've done things
Yeah.
.
I don't know who reads all these forms  anyway  but erm  
Well th they're there in case they're needed I think you see 
Yes that's it.
And the government auditors actually sort of er  come round.
I I misread previous  the word previous 
Word previous.
in that.
These are  these are estimates ?
Yes yeah  it's basically a question there  to ensure that people don't just put down that they're  whatever they're doing just purely  
Wal walking the streets for twenty four hours  a week  .
Yes.
I it's to cover the other things like doing the book keeping,
Yes.
doing the marketing and your advertising and general 
Yeah, yeah.
networking.
It's not just purely .
yeah.
Yes.
Well I haven't included the advertising of things in that.
Maybe I should?
Erm  sole trader, yes.
previous employer, yes.
Right.
There will be 
Yeah.
in that Nottinghamshire County Council was my previous employer.
I've actually heard from them today
Good.
from the  Personnel department asking for details of what I was offering because the  medical reports had now gone to the medical officer.
They could see no reason why he would turn them down and they're setting the paperwork in motion to put 
Good, right, right.
me on the appropriate lists.
So er  that's coming.
Do we have any indications   approximate percentage or 
I've said to them that I'm prepared to work for them.
Obviously I'm limited by the terms of my  erm pension  situation.
I've said I'd be prepared to work for between two and three days a week 
Right yeah.
for them.
Yeah.
I mean that  need not necessarily be kept.
I could undertake a whole week's worth and then 
Yeah, yeah.
do nothing for a fortnight of course.
It depends on demand.
there's school holidays and  .
Of course.
Yeah no  no that's okay .
right.
I mean they're all  basically for different schools anyway, but it just so 
Of course yes.
happens they come under one  education authority .
It's a it's a rather a debatable thing as to who is actually your employer.
That's right.
Yes I sha I shall have to go and talk to the tax people I know about  er  the the set up.
Yeah.
Right.
Fine.
Er this next form is basically one that we have to  send to the Benefit Office  
Right.
the D S S,
Of course.
the Inland Revenue and  the TEC office.
Right.
I'll suspend this.
You would need to  be in touch with the the Benefit office informing them 
Right yeah.
that you are going  onto the Enterprise Allowance scheme as from Monday .
I I I've got all the necessary papers to do that .
You have.
It's just a question of I was waiting till we'd had 
Right.
this meeting so that it was then 
Yeah, fine 
official
Yeah.
obviously.
Well this goes  by tortuous route and eventually will get to  Newark .
Yeah.
Erm basically we've just got here your your name 
Okay.
Can I  correct the spelling, it's one  .
.
You know when I wro 
It's two  in surnames and one  in christian names I always think.
I must admit on every form I've put the two  and I thought afterward I'd better 
.
It's a minor thing but er  you know.
On some of them I've just put John P I think.
That's right yes well that's how I'm intending to trade .
.
Yes, yeah.
Your national insurance number.
That is correct.
The type of er  business you are setting up  as a music teacher .
Right  music teacher and supplier of musical services in fact, yes.
Erm  trading name?
Is just John P  in fact .
Right.
And the card that I'm going to do will be  have John P  you know  erm teacher, accompanist 
right, yes .
performer  transposer or whatever it's  I don't want to limit myself to just  saying, I'm a teacher  other things as well.
No, fair enough, yes yes yes that's that's very  very .
The address business address is happens to be your home is 
Is correct, yes.
your home address,and the Enterprise Allowance  money will be paid from Monday the twenty fourth of January nineteen ninety 
Right.
thre four right through to Saturday the twenty first of January nineteen ninety five.
Got it, yeah.
The first payment due to you which will be credited to your business bank account will be on  week commencing the seventh of the February.
which will be a fortnight after 
Yeah that's right .
the  the actual start, yes.
I'll change that.
The  they were going to actually pay  fifty pounds  a week for a 
Yeah.
shorter period then on a reducing scale 
but the computer can't do it and  so 
unfortunately they'd already printed the forms
Yes.
and so but it it's back  .
Oh I understood the eighty pounds a week anyway .
Yep.
Yeah.
Providing that the forms get down to  the computer in London on time
Mhm.
then  erm  the first payment in some occasions is a cheque direct to you from the TEC .
I see.
Then when the cheques stop, then check with your bank further two weeks  
go straight to the bank.
Okay.
If there are any queries on   that you haven't erm received the money or anything just get back to us and er we'll 
Okay.
we'll we'll chase it up .
I know where you are.
Yes.
So that form we will send off to the various  erm  departments.
Right.
Right.
This form here it's just a fairly short one,i could you just  tick the appropriate boxes for me.
It's a bit of a market survey  research .
How did I hear about it?
Erm  well I didn't actually  hear about it, I'd already known that sch that such schemes existed .
Right yeah.
And it merely occurred to me, actually I was sitting in the unemployment benefit office and I said to them er er at one of my interviews,
Mm.
Probably I'd be better off going self-employed wouldn't I? and they said, Well in that case you'll need to talk to the Chamber of Commerce  
Right.
so I suppose basically
Yeah.
the job centre .
Mhm.
Is that okay?
Yeah that'll do fine.
Erm  I think I'd have  my business  later, probably about  six months .
Months , six months.
I'm glad you said that cos if too many people said they would have gone on  started business without it they might drop the scheme .
They might drop the scheme, yes yeah.
Mm  ah  I suppose so.
I object to these  things actually on principal .
I I  
I've refused to do them for Notts County Council  on occasions.
I could I could  prefer not to say , couldn't I ?
Yeah you could have done.
Erm   long term health  problems or disability.
yes 
Well 
and no.
retired on health grounds but I 
Well I mean we we are, yes yes we are aware of the .
Right so I will say no I don I don't have a long term one, and no I'm not registered.
for that one.
Thank you.
Right now this next form is the one that we need the bank details.
Which I just happen to have with me  somewhere in here.
I seem to have every form the Inland Revenue has ever published at the moment.
Ah  to the back of the .
In the bank manager's own handwriting.
Ah mm.
I have to sign my life away to get these yellow forms.
Mm.
Secretary of State cos I mean in in the wrong hands their worth  each form's worth two thousand and 
Of course, yes.
eight pounds
Yes.
so this one we have to be very careful with it.
Right the  sort code
The sort code is 
And the account number?
Is  
repeats account number.
And the account name is ?
Is John P  
John P.
business account.
Right.
Which account  er bank is it  ?
There you are.
Nat West.
Right.
Okay that's fine.
Erm industry code.
I looked up that early  earlier.
Fifty three.
We have a big directory that we've got to put all these 
Oh I see .
depending what type of business you're in.
Right when erm  did you finish actually work with   .
On the thirty first of August
Thirty first of August.
last year.
Right.
Approximately how many weeks is that?
Erm  hang on.
September, October, November, December  erm we're talking about  sixteen, eighteen  we're talking about twenty  twenty plus weeks  twenty twenty one weeks.
Twenty one weeks, right.
And in that time you were in receipt of benefit were you ?
Yes.
Yes was it er  do you know the the weekly amount approximately?.
Erm forty four  something.
Well whatever it is the standard .
yeah right.
Forty four.
It   to eighty nine pounds twenty twenty something pence  in total.
So it's for just over 
Right.
forty four.
That's  two  two and six .
One  two  two.
Right if you'll just erm  check the details .
.
If you want to just check the bank account cos we don't want the  we don't want the money going to the wrong 
Okay yes that's important .
close your zero there in case it looks like a six .
O one ninety four.
Yes obviously that's the date isn't it O one ninety four?
Yes, yes.
I never never appreciated that before .
No.
Oh I I knew that 
.
one actually because  our other erm  accounts are rather similar..
Right.
business yeah.
I don't know  oh yes
Right.
seventy two ninety four .
Yes that's the date of the first pay first payment 
Yes of course.
Your national insurance number.
Yeah.
Date of birth .
Erm 
You're male.
The industry code  
.
that I've looked up.
Previous unemployed twenty one weeks.
Previous benefit level forty four.
Right.
That's correct.
Signature of applicant.
. And the twentieth 
=ieth 
one  ninety four.
.
Right that's that out of the way.
One  there is a contract  agreement here between you and the  North Buckinghamshire TEC.
Right.
Erm there's nothing very sort of horrendous about it.
If you  just have a  take a few moments to 
.
have a read through it.
The  handout that they refer to here.
Have you read  erm handout number one?
It's  one of these which I think did I give you  initially ?
I have got a copy of  here 
That's it.
Yes.
I've actually been through it as you will appreciate.
A total of my own expense and ticked the appropriate bits  complied with them .
Fine, fine, yes so that actually refers to that 
Yes.
particular  account there.
Right.
In which case I will pause this again.
the only erm problem I had I think with the basic er terms as outlined in this document are the fact that I'm going to be wor erm intending to work for fif at least fifty of the fifty two weeks in the year at it when of course erm certainly as we'd already agreed on my erm  business plan  within the summer month from the  the end of July until the beginning of September 
Yes, yes.
it's highly unlikely  I'm gonna get any business at all.
Right, yes .
In any case because of the nature of 
Yes.
what is being offered 
.
and the market  that it's being offered to.
Yeah, yeah.
Er tha that's alright yes.
I mean the bas if you're sort of wanting to take any holiday or time 
Yeah.
off I mean just keep  yes .
That's the time to do it, yes.
Keep us informed and er 
Keep us informed, yes 
tha tha that's okay.
Do you want to know about occasional days or you you're presumably concerned with  with full periods.
I mean it sometimes is that for instance we  we have a daughter in York and I have parents in London 
Yes.
and sometimes we'll take a long weekend 
It's really full periods 
Go Friday to Monday or something 
Yeah.
like that.
It's really if you're sort of gonna be away for a couple of weeks.
Yeah.
Anything longer than that erm  it just depends really on the time of the  erm  your  the time of the year or how many months you've 
Right.
actually been on the scheme.
For example, we need  to see you  at 
Is it three six
Er three months and at six months  and then again at sort of the twelve months time 
And then at fif 
We're always still here and available .
and eighteen I think isn't it as well?
Yes that's right.
Yes.
So it's  if it's coming up 
Yeah.
to sort of three months and you 
have to be away and we don't hear from you we think, Oh you naughty boy, yes .
You might get worried, yes.
We'll take him off the scheme because he hasn't replied to  any of our correspondence .
Yes.
So er
No I'll certainly keep you informed .
No that's alright, yeah, fine.
Right this is the  the last  form .
This is my copy of the form.
Erm     have you been s yes you've been signing on 
I've been signing on postally in fact .
Yeah, yeah.
And it's been less than  it's between six weeks and  five months has it?
It is  it must be yes.
Erm ooh no hang on  it's just over five months .
.
Right so that's six to twelve months  .
That's six to twelve months wasn't it yes.
I must get my glasses changed.
They must print their 
Yes.
forms on slightly bigger pieces of paper I think.
Right.
Er  do you have any long  term health , no.
No.
Right here you have the opportunities to prefer not to say as to your colour.
Oh go on I've said it once so I'll do it again.
Right.
It's just basically 
Right.
basic details, name  and address, telephone number,
Okay, yeah.
national insurance number, date of birth.
Erm another code number form a directory 
start date of going onto the scheme,
That's today.
the end date  yeah 
And  forty pounds 
a week and that's erm  the code number for the for the TEC.
Right.
So sign and date that one.
ninety four.
That's it.
That's it, right.
you're now participant number O one six four two.
That's great.
one of those numbers to   .
I'll write it down on here.
O one 
O six  O one six six four two .
six four two .
Right.
Not that I shall probably need it at all.
Right.
Well thank you very much .
So that that's everything.
Now as I say  erm the next formal  sort of contact 
Mhm.
that we will have will you  with you will be in about three months time when 
Right.
we'll  er we'll want to see you.
We normally on the first three months do it on a group basis
Okay.
but if you happen to have erm  an urgent appointment or you're 
Mm.
seeing a client   on that particular morning
Yep.
then  we we can do it on a one to  
How much notice do you tend to give of these?
It's about  a couple of weeks.
Right.
Yeah.
Erm but if  
if it happens 
yeah.
you're saying, Well every Wednesday morning or whenever 
Mm.
it is  that I have an appointment 
Mm.
with a  with a er client then  we appreciate the business  comes first .
Mm  it it may it may not be in that nature because the nature of of supply teaching work of course is that 
Yes.
there tends to be a phone call we're desperate .
Can you make it?
Can you make it in half an hour's time, you know .
Yeah, yeah , yeah.
It's a  
should that occur
Yeah.
I mean 
Yeah.
I I think business 
Yeah.
must come first before 
Exactly.
Yeah we apprec we appreciate that 
Erm 
erm.
Now  at that int er we we'll send you a er a couple of forms but als to to complete, but there's also  the main thing that we're really looking f at is  erm  .
How you're keeping 
Yes.
up with that business plan .
That's right.
Filli filling in the actuals 
Right.
of your erm  your cash flow .
Well the the the actual book is already started and is sitting 
Good, good.
up and running as it were and er  I shall be I I know already that some of these figures are inaccurate  
Yes.
having had rather a nasty shock when I had the car serviced the other day .
Right, right.
It needed new clutch and new exhaust 
Yes unfortunately right
which didn't help matters.
.
The travelling and motoring expenses for  two hundred and seventy five 
Ooh  the they will be double that.
Double that, yes.
I've just paid three hundred and eighty five over to a certain garage
Yeah.
and that was before we bought the petrol this morning .
Erm  the form that comes out  is different to this but you you can use 
Right.
put it in pencil in this one if you want and we  so we 
Yeah.
can on the day make  a a photocopy that's all.
It's more of a management exercise  to 
Of course.
make sure that people are
Yeah.
controlling their businesses 
Mm.
and their costs  as opposed to actually  erm 
I've actually got a a complete copy of all that 
Right.
anyway having been
you didn did you want the original back 
Erm.
or erm
Yes alright unless 
Yeah.
you wanna keep it.
we have got a copy as well so
Oh I see.
Yes.
Well ha ha had I known I would have told you  not to take a copy you see .
That's alright.
I I I've I've been these these routes before
Yes.
and I never give out  documents that are going to be important without copying them first .
No no exactly.
I mean sometimes people go to great lengths and trouble 
Mm.
in getting a a nice  document together and they   they would  
they would like to have it back  and so 
Yes.
we take usually just take a photocopy of everything .
Right.
Have you  got the form  for the  I think  the Inland Revenue?
The tax man and it's a 
Erm  what I 
little green booklet called I R twenty eight.
Ah it's changed colour hasn't it ?
What I have  I R?
Twenty eight.
Twenty eight.
I think it'll be one of those 
Here we are.
I R twenty eight.
Yes it's cha changed colour.
the form is actually sitting in the  centre 
That's it.
which is one of the two  that I've got  because the other one I've got to deal with is the  self-employed  national insurance contributions 
Right.
form as well, of course .
Can I  just take the numbers off those forms?
You can indeed yes.
We have no problem getting  well that's   we have no problems getting 
Yes.
them from the Inland Revenue.
They send us lists 
Right.
of what's in everyone's  .
This this came as part of a package
Right.
I I rang Hill House in Mansfield  
Right.
useful 
how about it.
I have another matter to talk with them actually about my wife's liability to  class to  contributions.
There's a  a long outstanding erm discussion going on between us and Newcastle.
It's been going on for about seventeen months now  and the  in chief man at Hill House was rather interested to hear that we'd not actually had it resolved yet, and asked for the reference numbers and .
Newcastle were on the phone to us within twenty  minutes of him putting his phone down .
Things now seem to be moving.
Good.
to get these from.
You can go dow go down to local benefit office
Mm.
we can get a small  you know quantity but to actually get  
Well thi this is a complete pack that comes and there's obviously  erm from  the  information that was included with it erm  here we are.
Erm they they obviously run a check on what was actually in the pack 
Pack, right.
and whether you asked for anything else.
Yeah, yes.
And does it give an address or ?
I think it was nearly your  your area .
Mm.
office of course 
I haven't seen this new pack you know we 
Mm.
I've had some of the old individual leaflets.
They even give you an envelope for it.
It's very  charitable  
It is really.
.
That's a useful er  you know a useful 
It is.
.
Yeah.
get some   .
It might be an idea to have a supply.
Mm.
Yes  shall  pay another call to our benefit office and say, I want some of those  nice mauve coloured 
I suspect I suspect the local office probably won't because it was they  when I rang them here in Newark and I said, Look I'm about to go self-employed ,
Mm, mm.
Oh we don't keep things like that it's  where do you live?
Southwell.
It's Hill House, Mansfield.
You've gotta apply there .
Lincoln  .
So from Newark it's probably Lincoln 
Yeah.
isn't it?
Yes, yes 
Yeah.
normally that erm   
Southwell Southwell faces Mansfield which rather gets us in the  stick you see because we have to come here for  Benefit Office interviews and things like that but you got to Mansfield 
for other things.
That's right, yeah.
But most of the people who come here for interviews goes to Lincoln 
Yeah, yeah.
and er  with my son particularly earlier on in his career  things were going round and round in circles and in the end I had to step in at one point, grab all the papers as they came past as they were and saying,come on.
Cos one office was playing the other office  off against each other.
Yes, yeah yeah.
It was quite amazing.
Fine.
So that's  
I'm looking forward to this.
virtually everything.
Good.
as I say we'll be in touch with you in  in that three months time
Right.
but if in any reason you know you wanted to come and have a discussion or there was a problem or 
er there's anything  
things are looking clearer now than they did  you know a few weeks ago.
Yeah.
Fine, great.
And so I think  
I'm looking forward to .
possibilities are  are definitely there.
Mm.
I can start advertising myself now  
Right, right certainly.
and I'm hoping that the local authority will start coming across with  a bit of work for me.
Good.
How long did the interview last at the TEC.
Was it a fair was it an in and out  quickly or ?
Erm  fifteen minutes.
Fifteen minutes, right yes .
Yes.
Most of which  time we talked about organs.
I can play you the  er  recording of the interview 
Right.
if you like.
It's on the front of this tape .
But, no I'd better not had I.
No, no.
Confidentiality.
Yes.
That's er
Yes alright .
Yes a very nice gentleman.
Yes  it was John ?
John  yes.
Right, yes, yes.
They they do occasionally change  them around 
Yeah.
Erm  and some people that we  we send out sort of tend to be there for either half an hour and others  sort of.
It possibly depends on the nature of what you're  intending 
Yes.
to set up.
I mean my application essentially I should think was one of the simplest 
Yes.
that could possibly be.
There's no stuck  movements and 
Mm.
things like that involved.
No I mean  we do send the business plan up prior to the  to the  
Of course, yes .
but even so I think some 
Yeah.
of the ones   , yes, yes 
They look at it when the client comes in 
rather than.
I mean we did have 
Yes.
one which  must have been probably about so thick
Right.
and I can't foresee the chap  reading that in a 
No.
and absorbing it and er   they just  want to make sure 
Mm.
that the person there is  er
Actually did write the plan
Yes.
and knows what they're about, yes .
But even but even in that case we did have  er did have a case  with a young  a youngish lad who his accountant had written it
Oh.
was very sketchy
Yes.
financial projection side was fine you know 
Right.
full of  cash flow charts and budgets for three years, projected profit and loss and all .
But the written part was only very sketchy  
Mm.
on on erm  one  side of A four  and it was obviously wasn't written by a young  man
Right.
and erm  the they di did pass him but
Oh.
they did obviously have to ask him a lot more questions
Yes.
so hence the interview 
Yes.
lasted quite  a period of time because they wanted to make sure that  he knew what he was doing and everything 
Right.
was  you know factual within the  in the written part.
I I must say I've also been  er you know very  very impressed and er learnt quite a lot just attending these  courses that you've you've got running here .
Yes, yes.
It helps to put things that you already knew back in focus
Yes.
and remind you of some of the other things that you didn't.
Mm, mm.
Yes so i i at one time to get onto the  to apply for the Enterprise 
Mm.
Allowance Scheme one had to  attend a mandatory seven day Start Your Own Business course.
Right.
Yes I realized this  .
This was when they first started wasn't it ?
That's right which was  run two days a week for over  for three and a half weeks.
Right.
Then produce a business plan and the interv go for the interview which   looking  sort of month six weeks 
Yes.
before you could actually get onto the scheme.
But here in Newark because we don't have sufficient numbers coming through
No.
we tend to do it all on a one to one basis
Right.
and have a back up of the  you know the the individual days sort of 
then in a position
Yes.
to use your judgement as to whether you say to somebody, Yeah you must finish this before I'm gonna consider you or 
Yes.
Yeah okay we'll put your name forward but it would be nice if you attended.
Mm.
But before it was a mandatory seven day course regardless of that person's expertise or   you know  qualifications .
might have been  their own company  life before they 
Yes, exactly.
went unemployed and then decided to take advantage.
Yeah I mean we do get people who come in on the sort of the Friday morning and they've already got their  done their business  perhaps sought out  professional advice elsewhere 
Yeah.
they just really need a d discussion with somebody local, get some a bit of extra information  
And sign on.
but to make that person go through a  a seven day course and wait a month 
is  nonsense so  it is a much more flexible now.
Because we don't have the sufficient numbers and can't keep people waiting for  courses we tend to have these  do it on a one to one basis  which  you get, I don't know .
I think from  generally from courses are quite good because you do learn something and you're 
Oh yes.
meeting other people in similar circumstances and no matter how much you tend to know, you'll  learn and feed off each other 
Mm.
Whereas one to one it's just  you and that particular  you know business  .
I've been most appreciative of the  erm clarity and incisiveness of  's   set out .
She's very .
She she's a born teacher.
Mm.
Should should  I think the  the the tax  erm   priv private private tax  advice gain is the is the education  with her .
Mm, mm.
She she's absolutely excellent.
Yes, yes.
We always get er  you know very good erm  sort of report back er  from the courses that she  she runs, yeah.
Yes.
I think it's a difficult  subject er in  one where somebody's starting up own business who hasn't  erm had any experience before
Mm.
that you know  book keeping, finance and taxation i it's 
Mm.
a  a minefield in a wilderness 
It's a bit of a headache isn't it, yes.
and something that  one can be quite erm  fearful of.
I'm rather lucky in a way.
I've a father in law who was  er for a long time in charge of the erm  er financial side of the P A Y E side of the er National Dental Estimates Board in Eastbourne in Sussex 
Mm.
and he knows these things.
He could  he's still good enough to stand in erm Sainsburys alongside the till and add up the prices as they go through.
yeah.
Yes.
And reach the same total at the end
Yes.
or argue when his total doesn't match hers 
yes.
and he's always right.
Mm, mm.
Does he do that as a matter of practice when he goes shopping ?
Oh yes, yes.
He just stands there and does it.
Mm.
Click click click click click.
I can tell you what it's gonna be.
Mm.
And it is.
Amazing, yeah, yeah.
He worries me .
Yes, yes.
lesser mortals need these things like 
Yeah.
calculators to er.
Makes you very lazy I think.
Oh I think so.
It's rather interesting at the erm  book keeping course last Wednesday I  I did it all without using a calculator  because the examples essentially were quite simple.
Mm.
Basic arithmetic.
Yeah.
Er everybody else used calculators and I was first finished every time.
Mm, mm.
Now  that can't be because I was  that much better at maths because I'm not I mean 
Mm.
musicians can only count up to four.
Beyond that they  it's combinations  of twos and threes .
Yes, yeah, yeah.
I'm no I'm no speed  merchant as far as maths is concerned 
Mm, mm.
at all.
Mm.
I think you can get bogged down in in the button pushing and  making mistakes  .
Yes, yes yes yes.
I must admit I .
Maths wasn't one of my strong subjects at school and er  I I rely very heavily on it to 
Mm.
but even sometimes when the calculator is not immediately available and you start adding up the finger er the figures
Yes.
i it's  getting slower
Yes.
unless you're doing it.
I st I have to use my fingers these days to carry forward the the 
Yes.
the er the tens and all this 
Yes.
kind of thing.
Well I'd better get out of your hair.
Fine.
Okay well my next appointment's 
Thank you very much for this.
actually cancelled.
That was the telephone call 
Ah.
.
Get down and do some paperwork .
.
Thanks very much indeed.
Pleasure.

quite as young as that er you know but I mean er then as I got older I d I did live with me grandmother.
When?
For a bit.
Wh at what age?
Er ooh I figure I'd only be quite young  perhaps might be about five.
I can just remember m I can just picture my grandma  she was.
And I can just remember  where she lived.
I know it went up two steps.
Of course and then she dies and erm I went back to me own mother you see.
Why why did you with your grandmother ?
I don't know  my grandmother must have took to me.
And er and then er of course I went back to me mother after me grandmother died, I went to me mother and er mind you when I was th young there was a lot of poverty about you know there was er no security pay and no er  and you couldn't get any money from anywhere or anything like that you know and er so it used to er had to do the best  you can.
Me dad used to do anything  kind you know or work.
To well they used to call what they call them a labour man you know he'd do any sort of work.
Do you mean that he didn't have a permanent job ?
no he didn't have a permanent one, no not for a bit.
Not for quite a while.
And then erm then when er once when I was only little there was a pit strike on I think I'd only be about seven, somewhere there.
And you was allowed to go and get the coal from the pit siding.
Like there such as housewives have always got no coal.
Of course there was no gas fires about then.
no gas fires.
You used to have to cook everything on your fire.
You had to cook everything?
On your fire.
Yes there used to be a oven one side, a boiler on other and er your fire in the middle and the fire used to have er a a thing what used to come down, and you used to stand your kettle on there to boil.
Or you used to stand your saucepans on there to boil.
And then when you was boiling your potatoes or vegetables you you used to have tho th the iron saucepans in them days.
And you used to be ab well you used to be able to  over the flames of the fire on one side, and then er a saucepan on the other on the in one side with your vegetables in one side, with your potatoes in and then you used to have your oven with a for your meat.
There used to be two shelves in the oven.
Oh I see.
And on that side, what we  fireplace it used to be what we used to call a boiler, you used to fill it with water and it used to the fire used to heat it for you to take it we used to call what we used to call ladle it out into a a bowl to wash your pots with or wash your floor with or anything with.
So you had to scoop it out into 
Yes well you used to  scoop your water out with what you used to call a ladle in them days.
S and er and then of course when you'd got your so much water out again you used to go and fill it up again.
Fill your fill your boiler up again.
Oh it used to last all day.
You know and then er and then er  and we'd got no gas in when I was quite little.
There was no gas.
You used to use oil lamps.
Paraffin lamps.
I've seen my mother stand them on the table, middle of the table you know, the oil lamps.
And then I've seen t er me mother once had er oil lamp from the ceiling and it was round and the oil lamp used to stand in the middle.
And the surround used to have nice fancy work round you know to make it so it wouldn't stand on the table cos me mother bought one of those because it used to be a bit dangerous on the table if you knocked it you see and
What with the children?
Er yes if you know if knocked the table any time they fall over, liable to set fire you see with the paraffin and that.
And you used to have what they call a wick in it you know to light it and turn it down at night time and blow it out down the .
And then in the streets, there was no electric lights in the street, they all used to be gas.
And er a gent used to have er a gentleman going round with a great long stick.
And er just pulling the chain in the thing what er like a big white globe they used to be.
Stand high up and big white globe, and the used to little got a little door.
He used to lift this door up  with his stick and just put it inside and light it.
And then er in the morning part, he'd come and turn them all out.
That's how it was in them days.
Can you tell me something about, can you describe the house where you lived?
How how many rooms did they have?
Oh we used to er there used to be er er two rooms downstairs and then there used to be what you used to call er the attic they used to call them in them days.
Er go up another flight of stairs to another room.
They used call the it used to be called the attic you see in them days.
And er you used to have erm  lot of old houses now.
They used to have er a a what you call a front room, and then we used to call it the kitchen and then the other place where you wash your pots and the sink in and everything in, it used to be called the scullery in them days.
And erm some houses used to some houses used to go up some steps and two steps and The one where I used to be and you went you used to go up two steps.
And er and then there used to be some houses what er we didn't live in one of them but there used to be a lot of houses what used to be railings round, and there used to be steps and you'd go down the steps, into the And they used to c they used to live downstairs and then well of course when you're in the house in the side the room they used to have another flight of steps to come upstairs to a l a front room or a lounge or whatever you mind to call it.
All them sort of houses in them days.
What would be downstairs then?
Pardon?
It used to er be same as ordinary room you know it people used to 
The kitchen? was it?
live in it.
Yes.
Oh they used to be ever so funny houses you know and in them days and The er you never used to see in the oh a lot of houses and  you never used to see big windows like these.
They used to have big windows, but they used to a all be them there little tiny ones like that.
You'd got to clean and then er
Can you can you remember your mother doing the housework?
Yes.
Yes  
Well sort of 
telling you that.
She used to mind you in them days you there was no er fitted carpets on your floor.
You used to have to scrub them.
And er just the same as your table there was no er polish top tables when I was little.
You used to have to scrub them.
Scrub them white.
And they were like that and then of course they used to be er no washing machines you used to be at these here tubs.
And there used to be a rub board.
You used to have to rub all your clothes and on this rub board or get a little brush and and scrub the s collar and your cuffs and then in the salt water and get all them in and then you used to have to ponch them with a ponch or a dolly peg, what used to go round like that you see.
And there used to be all them sort of things.
Then me mother used to do lace work.
Turn a shilling or two what they call lace work.
They used to In the lace market there used to be factories what used to make lace er and er a lady used to er go and take fetch so much lace out and she used to give it out to people what wanted to do it.
They used to call it drawing or clipping and scalloping you see.
And  er lace what's got all the scallops round, well you used to have to do that.
And then they used to well it used to be ever so long, yards and yards of it and then we used to what they call drawing.
Th drawing you see there used to perhaps be some like that there wide and then the er then that narrow well you'd got to divide them by what they call drawing.
It's just a thread and draw it out and then it they used to come apart.
I used to sit and help me mother to do it.
And 
How how much time would she spend on this work ?
Oh it er oh it used to take it all depends how much they gave her to do you see.
And of course then when she had done it they used to fold it up they used to just get it then and go like that you know, and just fold it up and then when it was done all done you see, they'd take it back to this here lady and then of course they used to pay you for it.
It might be two or three shillings perhaps five shillings, it all depends how much your you got done.
But would she say spend about two hours doing it?
Ooh yes
Mhm.
Yes oh aye sometimes two hours or s or sometimes sit all afternoon and you know and and er a l a lot.
Well all that and then there used to be what they used call er net mending but my mother used to do that.
She made these er mosquito nets, people used to fetch them out and mend them.
And then take them back again.
But my mother never done that.
Why  
Well cos she d she couldn't do it.
Used to have to be very rather experienced in them days to do this here net mending.
Mosquito net mending you know we used to do a lot in Nottingham.
Of course then there's me mother,as we got older older me mother used to work at er what they used to call dressing rooms.
They used to do a lot of these er mosquito nets.
And li you know, er clean them and starch them and stretch them on frames and Have you ever been in a dressing room?
No.
Can you 
Well you just ought to.
There's a it's a great long room then a at the top here they call what they call fans.
big swing wide things used to go round when they was going.
Well then there used to be frames Ooh er as long as a street the room used to be.
Well when they've got this here lace, there used to be all pins at the side of this er of these er frames.
And then er when  
These would be made of wood, would they?
No they was made of steel.
Ah.
They used to be sharp if you wasn't careful.
Didn't know how to do them.
And they used to erm er get this er net or lace right what they were gonna what they after it'd been starched and everything.
And they used to have to put it like that on these er pins all the way down.
And then then after that, the overlooker what was there used to say, Well you you pull frame out so many pegs you see, and it used to pull out, stretch this here lace, and pull out and then they used to  dowels at the bottom used to plug in to stop the frames from going back.
And then they used to put this er these er wafters on you see to dry.
This er lace.
Well and then when it was dry, the at the ends there there used to be another long of pins that road to put the ends on.
Well and then there used to be a stripper it's a a long thing like that and there and er you'd put it on.
There used to be one woman one end and one woman the other, with something like something similar to the shape as a ladder.
And er get and then strip this er at the side, cos a girl used to be at the front to strip all this here lace of these here pins.
Then thes they used a pole this er and you used to have to behind stripping all these off lace off the pins while these here ladies was folding this er net up.
On these here ladders.
Like a same shape as a ladder I used to say they was .
Mm.
And er that's and then of course and then of course in the other place where they used to do it, they used to just pull these ladders out and these there nets was all folded up and everything ready to to do away abroad or anywhere you know.
Which which firm was this?
Can you remember the name?
Well there used to be a dressing rooms on erm on  Road there.
Er now what was the dressing rooms called?
And then then there used to be on  Boulevard.
You know where that there where they're building now?
Before it got burnt and that there used to be a dressing rooms there.
As well I forget the names.
How many hour How long would your mother work there?
Ooh she worked there for years me mother did.
But but how many hours a day did she work there ?
Well in them days you used to have to er work for eight till six or anything like that you see same as when I was wo first went to work.
Our time was eight till six.
And then Saturday mornings eight till twelve.
They never used to call it overtime, that was your proper weeks work.
From Monday to Saturday.
There was n no Saturdays knocking off then.
And you and you used to get the same money.
When I went first went to work at a laundry.
I used to work there eight till six and er I got four and six a week.
Four and six when I went down Nottingham to work, at the box place, Henry  's I got seven and six a week.
And I got paid one and six some weeks for a weekly ticket.
In them days mother used to give me sixpence to spend and
Mind you you could do a lot with that sixpence.
We used to go to pictures.
Used to get in pictures for thruppence, tuppence and thruppence.
Which picture house was that?
And  there used to be two on the  Road, one used to be called Palladium and one used to be called the Palace.
They all pulled down and superma er shops built there now.
But this was when you moved to  wasn't it ?
Yes.
Can can we go back again to when you lived at the other place.
At Nottingham?
In in Nottingham.
Can you can you can you remember the area where you lived.
Can you describe 
Oh 
it were there many shops there?
Oh yes there was a lot of shops round there.
There was a a lot of shops on  and then as across the road there used to be a  Road and there used to be a lot of shops there.
There used to be er a fish shop and er that used to be called  's that fish shop did.
You used to go and get a penn'orth of chips and a penny fish.
And you could go and get er a  get a good dinner for anybody w yeah when they was poor if they had fish and chips for their dinner you see it never used to cost them all that much for for a dinner.
And of course the tram cars used to run along there.
And then where the ice rink is, there used to be a lot of houses and shops round there.
you see then they pulled them all down and built the ice rink there.
And then er where the facing the ice rink there used to be a pub called the cricketers, well that's still there.
Well there used to be a lot of shops there.
When there used to be all houses round there, there used to be a fish shop there as well.
And then there used to be erm Mrs  her name was, used to keep her little shop at bottom of the yard.
And you used to go there and we used to have er anybody  mashing the tea what they used to call it.
She used to th she used to sell it and er hap'orth of milk for a ha'penny.
Half a cupful you used to get for a ha'penny.
You see round the factories round there.
And er lot of shops there.
And  and then what we used to call .
There was a little post office there and there used to be some shop on there.
There was erm Mrs  's was on .
And er she used to sell corned beef and er pickled onions or anything like that for people what was working round there what couldn't get home for dinner.
If they didn't bring any dinner of their own.
You see.
And er then er then at the at bottom there used to be er a clothes shop.
Well it used to be a clothes shop but what you used to call a pawn shop in them days as well.
At bottom of er .
And er 
Did did many people take stuff to to the 
Pardon?
Did many people take stuff to the pawn shop ?
Yes used to be ever such a lot.
Ever such a lot of people.
Perhaps you used to go and pawn the husbands suits or a anything like that till the following Saturday or Friday and fetch them out you see, and that cos there was very  for people in them days, I mean they didn't get a deal of help from anywhere.
And then they they used to pape lads going round selling papers you know the newspapers with no shoes and stockings on the feet.
They used to be nice little lads and all going round and quiet and the they used to then the tram cars used to lo run along  Road.
And er and and er through the meadows there.
Down through Midland Station and all down there.
And it all used to leave to Trent Bridge.
And then er I were telling you about the er where the marshes wasn't I.
Where there used to be a great big island.
Ooh it were ever such a big island there was.
With a little wall round and on this island there used to be a lot of houses on and they used to be all what they call alms hous old people lived in them and that.
And then er when then as far as where  is there used to be erm a fountain.
A water fountain and it used to have little cups all the way round as you could go and have a drink.
Out of.
And then er then  I mean er, wasn't so big then as it is now.
It and they never used to sell nothing over sixpence.
And then when  first opened, they never used to sell anything over five shillings.
They used to be tea services, carpets, nice odd carpets and mirrors and dolls and everything.
You well you used to get a lovely doll for one and eleven in the old money.
Beautiful doll.
And then you know where the foun the water fountain was where the marsh is, there used to every weekend there used to be a er a chip and fish stall there w and hot peas.
There used to have people used to all go and get some hot peas and the fish and chips and eat them you know, as they was going home and and all like that.
Was this on a Saturday did you say ?
Oh yes.
Fridays and Saturdays there's always always one there every week.
And then there was with er where Saint Peter's church is, where  is now,th there used to be a Punch and Judy show there t every week as well.
And th you used kiddies used to go round there, looking at them.
And then just same as these barrel organs.
They used to all walk round.
They didn't only stop in one place.
They'd perhaps go round streets, different streets playing them and then they'd er they'd go up  and play them up there you know, and and that 
What would they do would they s stand on a corner or or
Yeah stand yeah stand anywhere and fellow with his er little monkey on and children as you know asking the gentleman all sorts of questions about his monkey, you know, and the monkey'd  all dance all sorts of tricks on it you know and the kiddies used to laugh and that.
And then er then where  Market is where  Market is there used to be er er there's a school there I don't know I think it's still there.
used to be called a ragged school.
I don't know why.
But it used to be called a ragged school.
Well it used to be er one road used to be called Meadow Flats, and then you go a little way down another road and it used to be called the bottoms.
One used to be called the bottoms and one used to be called the Meadow Flats and yet they both led to the same place.
You could go right along there and th and it'd land you right into the Victoria nearly.
Well it used to be the Victoria Station in them days then before it come Victoria Centre.
And er and it all and you used to when our Queen's grandfather was crowned king in nineteen hundred and ten, ooh they trimmed it up beautiful.
All Nottingham was beautiful and along there'd got great big flags and they'd trimmed all Christmas they'd they'd sewed all Christmas things on them.
Oh of course down there the bottom and that there used to be a lot of erm there used to be some lodging houses what they call lodging houses for people what's got nowhere to go you know, you used to sleep and.
And it's just the same where the er marsh is now.
But it used to be called Broadmarsh.
Well along Broadmarsh there used to be er a lodging house there.
And it used to be called  's N's lodging house.
There through Broadmarsh.
Cos there used to be a lot of houses under the shops along there as well.
And it used to lead you up to what they called  Hill, the steps, they're still there.
And you can cut through there now.
And er well you go further  through and you can go to the erm And the the Narrowmarsh it was narrow and all, you could shake hands with one another o off the  but it now is all council houses is built down there now where they only used to be ordinary little houses.
Used to be ever so narrow.
Called it narro and that's reason they called it Narrowmarsh.
The 
Where there just houses there then?
Just houses?
Yes lots of nice houses down there.
There used to be a lot of nice shops as you went through Broadmarsh as well.
And er then er these two erm er Then when we used to when we was the young you used to be able to go down to Skeggie for a day on train for two and six.
To go to Skeggie.
Or Cleethorpes and that for the day.
Your parents would take you and
Mm.
Er yes parents'd take you.
Yeah  yes the we went to we used to go down there for a day to Skeggie.
And er fare's two and six for the day's trip.
Er and then I'll tell you then when  was in the er on  Square and of course this council house as what this council house what's built now, it wasn't there then,it used to be different council house, there used to be a great big archway.
And underneath this archway you used to have meat stalls and fish stalls and it used to be called the shambles.
And then on the other side there used to be what they called the market.
Had all these er stalls it you know er
What did they sell?
Oh they used to all different stalls used to sell One stall they used to sell fruit and and that and then perhaps another stall they'd sell pots and er and all like that all down on them stalls.
It used to be like just like a the market as in er what's in the Victoria but it was more on open air what they call it in them days.
On there.
Did they have any street entertainers around the market ?
Oh there used to be a lot of s er entertainment coming round the streets there used to be er gentlemen as coming round singing.
And er there used to be these er like Scotch people you know, with kilts, with swords and put them on the floor and dance round the swords and.
All like that and.
And then there used to be the Hippodrome and the Empire.
That used to be all stage you know not pictures then it used to be all stage.
Well me father used to take us there.
And er and then there used to be er
Can you remember what you went to see?
Yeah I well I I've seen .
And I've seen Harry Lloyd and er Houdini what they call him you know, where he used to be all strapped in chains and get out of tanks and that.
Oh I've seen I've seen all them.
And then of course and then when we used to go to pictures in afternoon Saturday afternoons when we was little.
It only used to be a penny.
And they used to er have er a film Of course they used to be silent films and then er er had er and there used to be what they call interval.
And they used to stage, well when we used to go for a penny the stage, they used to perhaps have competitions for the childrens what used to want to go on.
Perhaps there used to be er erm a lot of hot cross er buns hanging down.
And the children's used to be tied behind their back and them what er eat this er cross bun first, used to get a prize.
And er and of course that was interval and then er and they used to come and sit down and they used to show you another film.
Perhaps it might be Charlie Chaplin, a bit of a comic one or or summat like that and er
What sort of prizes would the children get ?
Ooh they sometimes used to get books or er they used to get some nice prizes you know, and books and er and that and er and when I was little I once went on stage for a in a skipping competition.
And er I won I won a book called Kathleen's Victory.
I can always remember that yeah, I won a book called And then er when we came out pictures on Saturday afternoon, there always used to be a gentleman there and he'd had a great big basket and he'd like he'd have a bag of sweets and oranges in these er basket and they used to give the children a bag of sweet and orange and they came out and see pictures for a penny.
You used to get them free?
You used to get them free.
Yes.
So er they wouldn't do that in our days would they?
And we used to follow serials up in the er on Saturday afternoons you know.
There used to be some nice serials for They used to be thrilling you know, er I can remember I wish they'd show them now They used to be what we used to call, The voice on the wire  and then there was another serial called, Peggo the Ring.
And er and then there was another voice voice called another film called, The er The Second Black Pearl, or some and them and there was the  Dagger and
These were all se 
And the grey ghost and all them we saw in serials and of course we used to follow them up go every Saturday afternoon and follow these serials up.
For a penny  we used to always go to pictures Saturday afternoon when we was little.
What would you do Saturday morning when you were little?
Well we used to er well really we never used to do anything kind of perhaps er go out and play or anything like that.
Of course as we got older, me dad used to make us helpers mothers you know.
We always used to As we got older we all had a little job to do.
Such as what?
What sort of job ?
Er like such as er like er at er night time before we went, we always used to I had to go to bed early.
And when we went to bed early we used to we One used to have to fill the kettle, and then the other one used to have to set the table for next morning for next morning.
And er well perhaps there was one that used to do anything cos she was perhaps too young.
But erm And then we weren't allowed to stay up.
Not till we got older.
Might be about When we start work we could stay up a little bit later.
But on a Saturday nights we used to stay up when we was young.
So how late did you stay up till ?
Well perhaps about er ten o'clock or something because what er me father used to do.
Me mother er and me father they er me mother used to go to picture and then er when the cur and then me me dad didn't like pictures so he used to always meet me mother outside and then they'd perhaps go and have a little drink together and a walk.
Well me dad'd never let us stand outside pubs or anywhere you know.
Wouldn't let us stand outside anywhere.
So we used to go to pictures at Saturday nights.
Me dad'd take us to pictures.
He didn't used to come in with us but he'd take us.
And we'd sit there on er a  and then when it was time to come home, when me father used perhaps might be about er nine o'clock or half past, he used to come and the gentleman always used to him.
Mr  always used to know me dad, he used to say, Are you come for the childrens?
And he says, Yes.
And me dad used to say, Come on me ducks, just like that and we used to come out with him.
And there used to be a sweet shop on the High Road er next to 's and er me dad'd call in He used to keep open till late then.
Me dad'd call in there and buy some sweets.
And he'd share them between us when we got home.
But didn't to eat any that night, we'd got to save them till next day.
And we'd all go to bed.
And would your mother be there as well?
Yes me mother'd be there yes.
Oh yeah.
No me mother she she did work hard well we all had to do in them days.
And of course and then when we got older, when we got in us teens, we used to have to help us mother with the cleaning.
You see, when we was at home.
One'd have to do the bedrooms, to clean the bedrooms.
And ano and the other one'd have to do the stairs.
But that one as done the stairs had have to do the bedrooms the other week.
And the other one'd do the stairs that week.
We used to change it like that.
Did you just help out on a Saturday or 
And er we used to all do that and then in the week in the weekday 
Oh only during the week.
at nighttime.
How many children were there?
Oh there was er three three daughters.
Three where there used to be me,or Mary and er May, she was the youngest, she was only a baby May and Miss er May was cos she was the youngest.
But I had two brothers.
Of course they didn't used to do anything.
No.
They didn't do any housework?
No they didn't do any housework.
Only the girls.
And then on a Sunday morning, we used to erm get up and we used to have to do the cleaning between us.
All as me mother's got to do that day was the dinners.
In the morning part.
And then in the afternoon we'd er We used to get ready and we used to go anywhere where we like you know, as long ann er back for tea.
I used to there used to be me and my sister.
We er always used to stick together.
She's the not a dearly difference between us.
There was me and er s and m me sister Mary.
She was about er only fifteen months difference between us.
What she was older 
than you?oh you're the eldest?
No I'm older.
Yes I shall be eighty one next month.
And she'll as be er she'd be er about er seventy seventy nine she would be.
Seven between seventy nine and eighty she'd be.
And er we always used to pal out together.
And people used to say, Oh you're not sisters.
You don't see sisters palling out together.
Said, Well we doesn't when we're  one another.
Did you used to enjoy one another 's company?
You got on well together?
Pa Yes yes yeah.
And we have done all us lives.
And then we she got married we still kept in touch with one another and I got married and we didn't live far from one another.
We lived in the same street.
But she lived higher up and I lived lower down.
And I used to er very often go up to her house and she'd come down to my house and er.
And that and then we'd erm we'd have cups of tea and that.
And then er then when her husband died, he er we went out We used to go out together cos me husband never went out much.
And er we used to go on the High Road together, shopping together, And perhaps Sunday afternoons she'd say, Oh come on Ada let's have a ride down Nottingham.
I said well it's best place to go on Sunday afternoons, we don't spend any money.
We'll go and have a cup of coffee, tea something like that you see.
Always go and have a cup of tea.
And then er and then of course when the council houses pulled dow er when the council pulled the down again, there was these houses you see.
We was told to get a mortgage and that of course she she was on her own.
Cos her sons had got married and she lived in a little bu flat, bungalow rather.
And er and we still used to meet.
We used to meet Su Monday afternoon.
And we used to meet Tuesday.
And then someti we meet Thursday and every Saturday  afternoon we used to meet.
We used to go walk round and shopping and then we'd go and have a cup of coffee and then we'd both catch a bus.
I'd catch one down here, she'd catch her's up home.
And er of course and then she took ill and died.
She's only been dead s er six year.
Ca can I go back a bit to to your childhood.
Oh to me chi 
A A and your and your schooldays.
Oh me schoold Oh well there was er
Can you remember any games that you played as a child?
Oh yes there used to be what they used to called er we used to call Ticky.
You know  scatter run and tic one another you know, and and then you used to we used to play er diabolo what you used to call them  have you ever seen them.
There us used to be two sticks.
And there used to be like a big bobbin there and you to  and they used to go like that and chuck it up and try and catch it you know, and And we used to play shuttlecock and battledore.
What's that.
Why er pardon why it was er You know like these tennis rackets?
Yes.
They're like that, and then they've got a shuttlecock the shuttlecock used to er have er like a a cork thing and then there used to be feathers round.
And perhaps a little bell in the middle.
And you used to er get it on this here one, chuck it up and ca keep catching it.
And we used to have what they call er a  stick and goos it used to I remember we used to have sti what you call stick and goos It was like a great long thing like that and you used to have a stick and it used to be on the floor and you just tap it and and hit it like that and it goes
Erm there's er
Where wo where would you play these games?
Oh we used to play them in the streets or anywhere like that.
Yes.
you know we never The children wasn't any any trouble.
No they play all these these play these er  and everything.
They used to These  they used to be a round used to be round you know and not very  used to hit them as you hit them with a stick you see, they used to wheel wheel round and round .
Oh like a like a loop er 
Yeah.
a round
Then we then of course then used to be this er game skipping.
Two one girl one end one girl another you know, turning the rope and you skipping in the middle and counting 
Did you sort of sing any songs or anything when you were skipping ?
Ooh yeah.
Ooh well they used to well they didn't used to sing a lot of songs but er they used to do a lot of you know playing about and perhaps and then they'd perhaps have a ball.
You see.
You'd s er a lot of them you'd sta you'd  stand up against a wall and then they say, Goaler throw a ball.
and you'd just hit it like that and as you hit, you'd got to run and come back again, before she got the ball to t er tap you on er you know, with the ball.
And er then you'd got to be on then.
Oh we used to oh play all sorts of things like that.
When we was young.
Whe when you were didn't it happen Mrs  that when you were playing in the street one day, you were knocked over by a tram ?
Yes well well I were I think I was running after me mother more than anything.
Cos I was on me own and er I me ma I think me mother had gone of an errand and of course I run after her.
And it it was on .
First car that ever run along  and it was facing a  a chemist what they call .
Any old people knows the  chemists and it was ge there used to be a park at the side on it and all.
Well I got erm and them boards underneath there's some boards underneath the tram car there was, and they s picked me up you see they so when er there was a crowd outside the chemist, I was in somebody took me inside.
I can't remember who took me inside.
And then er somebody told me mother and of course me mother come in then, And a policeman was there.
And of course this policeman used to come and see me ever so often, but me mother never saw his co-operation.
No.
And er then of course when I got better It hit me all on the head  and that well Then er when I went back to school they found out as I couldn't see the board properly.
So the sent me to the er eye infirmary and of course the eye infirmary sent me to the blind school.
And there used to be a lady named Mrs , used to come and take us.
And er the corporation used to give her so many tickets to last her the week.
And of course we used to have to go on tram cars to the school and   Road.
Was this you and and some other children that she took ?
Yes.
Yes there used to be her son, and there used to be me, and there used to be a a girl name Edith right, and there used to be her sister, Ethel right, and then there used to be another young girl named Clara .
And then she used to take all those together and she used to have to give the conductor so many tickets each time she went.
And then er we used to take us dinners to school erm whatever your mother had got to give you.
If you took eggs there used to always be a lady there at dinner time what used to come round and ask you what you'd got for dinner, and then if you'd got eggs, she used to write your name on the eggs and do them for you.
Oh what, and boil them?
Yes.
Oh.
Boil them.
Or if your mother had got a say she made you a meat and tater pie in a little dish, if you took this little dish with you, the lady used to er warm it up for you.
They used the oven there and we used to sit and the  you see.
And er there was only three classes, there was er I can remember two teachers' names.
There was er one named Miss , and the other one was named Mr .
And er er and he was alive till not many years ago.
And er and of course 

services.
Now we've got this year, certainly it will succeed in years and pay, pay the interest off, that will re result in a  any more money  your own debt.
The S S A will be controlled as it is at present.
I see us put into  on that sort of thing.
What we  we got a result over that.
Interest rates will go up.
In the past when they've gone up, under the conservatives, we welcomed that thus slashing fourteen per cent,money out of the market and as they said, two million pounds against eight hundred thousand.
That is going to change, of course.
As money goes up, er, you can you can negotiate figures
Interest.
Well, then that was at a higher level than at present, but we're not going to take on at ten per cent interest.
That's five or six per cent on the debt .
So you're gonna pay more for that.
The whole thing, reminds me a little bit of each  when I had to get my  thousand pounds.
You're lucky you got one.
It says on it, you can pay two hundred pounds, or over three years, or you can pay ten pounds.
Who decided, Mr Chairman, to pay the ten pounds, you were lucky really, you have to pay the two hundred pounds, that'll be the 
Yeah, well, thank you Chairman, I I I'm erm er, I must admit, I'm I I am think long and and and er think deep really, about er, you know, changes such as this, but I I also er, er have to run my own businesses, and er, I just er, I think we have experienced a water-shed, it's coincided to some extent with the change of administration and then during the nineteen eighties, we had to a boom in this county, we had the the opportunity and I never er ever er, been against that principle, of er, of er, using our actual receipts we have hidden reserves, we we talked about the reserves of twenty nine million pounds here, for the er, erm, we have er er, assets of twenty nine million, in an earlier paper.
And then we all know, that that that er er considerable assets there, which are there, and and and we're we're we're very grateful for them, we are in a very fortunate position.
But, we have interest rates at the lowest rate they've been, well, in my memory, really, in terms of er er my time in business, and they may even go down a further one per cent.
Er, and that coincides as well, with er, unfortunate situation, where we've erm,
we're still in the in the recession.
I heard that that er er er parts of the rest of the U K property prices have risen over the last year, er but ours have actually not risen at all.
In fact, they've gone down.
Lincolnshire and Humberside, and so er er I've no doubt in my mind that there will be opportunities available to us, er through further capital receipts, in the foreseeable future.
But those won't, er if we were to take cashing those in now, it would be probably taking half of what we might get for them in the future, and from a business proposition, there is a time, when even if you have money in the bank, there are times, when it would be very advantageous to take  long term interest rates, at low interest rates, and I think er er this is er perhaps the best opportunity that we have.
Er, also, we don't forget that er, we, whilst people say to me, er we had a good year on the P S G last year and we've had some good settlements, perhaps over the year, better than average, in the East Midlands, on the P S G. But we have so much catching up to do.
We're light years behind some of those areas where the spending has been at a much higher level.
So we don't want to be any under any illusions about that, and the same can be applied to the fact that we have made no real provision for nursery education, that we were in trouble over special needs in this county, that was a a requirement to to restore services that were well below the S S A on Social Services, and we really all this er this er, new administration has done, has been brought those up, those services up to what would have been regarded as a quite an unacceptable level with most of the the the authorities in this country.
It's been a  up, in fact, you've been living off the people, in in in other words.
Really, in terms, of
providing, and you've been living off capital in that way, and and and I'm not prepared to do that, but I do think there is strong case for borrowing, er, providing it's kept in in that in in er er under control at this time, and borrowing, I may feel that we will be able to be in a much better position to take our capital receipts and use them advantageously in the future.
I have no doubt about it that the government are urging us at this moment, er I I am concerned about that, they are urging us by the er
approvals to do to go down this road.
I I I don't want to go down the road to the same extent that they've done, when they put us into debt by fifty er fifty billion o o o o o o o just on on on one day, but I'm sure that there is a a strong case to look
and to pursue the options that are are available to us, and that's what I hope the Treasurer will do, er, and this is all we're approving at the moment, and that an an and to find out just what the, how the land lies, what the best position is, what interest rates that we might be able to get, and over what period and I I I er support this er er er er this expense bud budget.
Thank you Mr Chairman.
Er, this is basically about fairness and equality.
Fairness the people who willingly to cheer now.
Er, to expend money on a project over, that is going to last thirty forty years, and expect the people today to pay for it.
Erm, when their paying for it, not necessarily with money, but in some cases with their lives, with misery.
These are the things that they're having to pay for it with, and the reason being, is the Social Services in this county were a diabolically low level, and people were definitely suffering from it.
The people of this county, were suffering from it, through crying, because of the lack of crime prevention work being done by the previous administration, because the money was all going one way.
I'd like to ta look round this room.
Everybody has homes.
How many people of the , how many of you here today, could actually pay for your home out of your income, if you waited until you have sufficient income to pay for your home in its entirety, the bulk of the people in this room, even though there are, yes, some rich farmers, still couldn't afford to have a home.
These are the types of things, that you have failed to look at.
Central Government is encouraging us to borrow, and I was pleased to hear Councillor  on papery actually accept that borrowing under F T C was acceptable.
I didn't do anything, I don't know what you are talking about.
How ac you're unsure
I said, well if governments daft enough to borrow, that's their business, I was 
Mr Chairman, er the actual words were, S T D, S T C's are a separate thing when we are borrowing on governments behalves.
And that was his exact words.
So he supports them borrowing, but how many farmers in this country, or in this county don't have a loan.
I would think very very few.
We are looking for fairness, and that is what we're going to deliver.
Perhaps I was saying too much.
Councillor Brock is the Vincent Price of our councillors, with his horror stories,
Anybody that borrows money for a capital project is in is in the mad-house.
He should be in the mad-house, which worries me, because I, to follow the point that councillor Taylor's made.
I borrowed a modest amount to buy my house, that I could easily meet within the finances that I'm getting at the moment.
And that's all the same that the County Council are going to do.
They're going to lend money for long term projects, and the people of Lincolnshire, who benefit through those projects for years to come, will be paying modestly for years to come.
That way, we are providing those front line services, that Councillor Taylor picked upon and Councillor Parker mentioned, such as Social Services that had been, that that literally been fleeced by the previous administration to pay for their capital projects.
We will put in the front line services, such as Social Services.
I hope we will borrow very modestly, it'll be affordable, we're not reckless, we'll be doing what the majority of people in this country do, borrow within their limits for the things that they need for the future such as a home, or a car, something like that.
It's nothing to be frightened about, it's not something new, as been stated.
Borrowing is, does not re , is not a new thing for us.
We we do that in terms of of of capital control for Translink and Computer Services, and it's interesting to note that we don't class as a debt free authority, so what we have is a number of scare stories from Vincent over there, which is irresponsible.
This is a sound tool in our management  toolbox, and I recommend it.
Good job this meeting's being recorded, Mr Chairman.
We should have a play-back in four years time.
Councillor 
Thank you, Mr Chairman, it it's certainly very interesting this morning, er listening to the various points that have been put forward by er the new administration.
Erm, all speaking with an air of running business, managing finance and er how we haven't managed in the past because this is what, our actual 
It is really, it's a philosophy, isn't it, over the last how many years, you don't have this philosophy, about being in fear of long term debt in in this authority.
I don't think capital  not the way the average  them that work.
Better to be in philosophy than have the facilities  which has greatly benefited the charge payers and the people who think  right across the board.
Right across the board.
I I mean, I find it, I find it quite amusing when some of the er labour people  their services.
I travelled the country  well, I've been in other authorities both labour controlled, been in to schools, been in old peoples homes, erm seen their roads, or driven over their roads, and I can assure you, that er  in Lincolnshire.
I think you know, Lincolnshire has done a dam good job for the people in Lincolnshire  whether it in roads, whether it be old peoples homes, or whether it be in schools, whether it be in fire stations, police stations, I admit to  where one could say across the board, they could compare, that they could compare, they might compare they might live in one area and work in another.
One could go into Cambridgeshire and some of the various levels of development what they have got
Cambridgeshire roads, and you know very well that they they don't compare to Lincolnshire roads,County boundary.
You go into various parts of the er south west, where their labour control  and you look at the state of their buildings, and you think, my God, what on earth have the elected members been doing when you actually see the level of rates that they have set.
And then, I mean, the amount of long term capital debts they all got.
Erm, it it's a matter of whether you want to spend today and pay later, or whether you want to continue a philosophy is mainly in the majority of Lincolnshire vote, that if you want something, you pay for it.
If you haven't got the money, you go without.
Now, we are providing above average level of services year on year on, at below average, er er average  expenditure.
For the simple reason that we have no debt to finance, we have no debts to finance, and if we'd listened to you over the years, on our sur surplus land and property.
Selling off the family silver.
The times that has come out of your mouths.
Selling off the family silver, and look what we're gonna have to do with that year  You have criticised those for setting up the various units, and giving them target  for.
You have criticised those for looking after, Councillor Clark, I didn't talk when you were talking, and I thought you'd want to listen to what I'm saying, because er, I think you could learn a lot.
Er, I was hoping you  
Mr Chairman, I take  to a conclusion 
Mr Chairman, if this  for negotiators of these  and if you look at th the papers of the  budget this year, er because of conservative policies don't improve, you haven't actually inherited about ten million pounds coming in to your budget during the year.
Now, you have been spending, since May like water.
You have  unspend, you have spent, and you actually spent more than we've got in some instances.
You make commitments for next year, as as if , money had gonna be no object.
You your criticising the the government is not giving you as much grant as you would like.
You'll have to remember that the that the er increase from last year, it's an increase, it's not a cut, not talking about cuts.
There is no reduction from Central Government from last year to to to from this year, to next year, and you have been totally unrealistic,the two of you, the labour and the liberal parties after May, erm, we've gotta this, we've gotta that.
As as if money would just come whenever you open your mouths.
You are at last realising the folly of what you set out to do.
and as Councillor  said.
Here we are, in a matter of what eight to nine months of inheriting, a well financed, a well run, an effective, efficient organisation with a reasonable amount of na balances.
With a capital investment fund, and yet here you are trying to have to borrow to be able to manage next year.
I think it's an absolute disgrace.
I think it's a sad day for  in Lincolnshire, and you know, if you start as, I think Councillor  said, to er, agree with this er proposal today, it is, it will be the first sod and the last hole which you will be digging and it'll be the charged back to Lincolnshire at the end of the day who are happy to  on it.
Thank you for that.
Right, I think er, everyone's had a good say from both sides, and I would like to sum up and put it to the vote.
Erm, really its a question of, do we borrow or don't we borrow.
That's what we've been asked this morning.
It's also being raised by other conservatives, they wouldn't have started from here.
And the question I've been asking myself of this, is that erm, where did we start from.
When we took control we inherited an unsustainable capital programme.
Now that capital programme was at erm, fifty two million, I think it was thereabouts.
Which would be formulated in the pre-election year which was for obvious reasons.
Would you allow me, please.
You know, I've allowed you all to speak, and I do expect the courtesy of 
I'm I'm sorry Councillor Wyle, I expect the courtesy towards the Chair, and I am now summing up, so please be quiet.
What did we inherit, I say we inherited that, and also we have inherited er an S S A to us, that you would have inherited, the conservative, at some ten million short of what we needed.
Now I want to refer to that, because this is fact.
The increase in the education S S A nationally, by one point eight per cent.
Lincolnshire only receive nought point five per cent increase.
That was a loss to Lincolnshire County Council, fact, of one point eight million.
The area cost adjustment which the er government takes out of the total S S A's of some two hundred million has gone to the south-east, I hope none goes to Westminster, and that has cost us one point three million.
In the distribution of care in the community, the money for that, with the
S S A. Reduction compared with the amount we received in ninety-three, ninety-four through the special transitional grant, we got a reduction there, two point two million.
This fact.
It's been mentioned, I think it was Councillor  mentioned about the, he was pleased to see that we got two million pound in interest receipts against the eight hundred thousand that was envisaged.
But within the S S A, the government expected us to have three point  nine million  receipts.
That is a loss of two million.
Also we've been arguing our claim for the sparsity factor, in other words, the national reduction of one hundred and sixty one million in ninety-four, ninety-five compared to ninety-three, ninety-four for the sparsity factor.
One point six million.
Now whether you like it or not, and you're not in our position, because we er prepared to manage this authority, you would have had that same reduction to find, and I did hear Councillor  and he was also referring to capital spend the other day, saying he could have found ten million.
I've also heard Councillor  er being, er er quoted in the press, as saying that he could find the money for capital schemes.
I think one was out at Caister.
So that where we're at at this point in time.
Now Councillor  refers to whether the time was right, and why should we have to borrow.
Well as you're aware, our philosophy, our policies are to protect and improve services, and a lot of our services, when we came in with our initiative, we started from a nil base, on some of the provision, and we are not prepared to stand by and see diminution of any of the services, if it is humanly possible.
So the decision is whether we borrow to protect those services, that's to the elderly, to the school children, to education and to try and enhance our road system.
Er, then this is a decision we have, we want flexibility.
The interest rates are low at the present time.
The climate is right, and we believe it could be sound financial management in a very difficult situation, it's been referred to, should we borrow.
The majority of the County Council's in this country borrow money.
Er, I think it was Councillor  who referred to er looking at your own household budget.
I look at my er occasionally, I borrowed money over my lifetime, and managed to acquire a capital receipt, a property.
And most of us do that, and that is the situation that we're in at the present time.
And, we're not in doing, not intend telling you at the er, proposals we will put in the budget, but I can give you an assurance at this point in time, that we shall be borrowing money.
And the er, detail of that will come out when the proposals are put to the Policy and Resources Committee.
So I support er the recommendation for the change in the er, Treasury Management Policy er statement, and I formally move this to be adopted by this Committee.
I second that.
I second that.
Mm.
Seconded.
All those in favour of that, please show  thank you.
One at the back there, would you count, please.
Eight, Chair
And against.
Six.
Seven.
Would would you please register that the er, conservatives vote against it.
Do do all the conservatives agree with that statement.
Agree.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Er, that is carried.
didn't have to answer the questions  
I'm sorry, I'm moving on to the next paper.
questions  
I'm sorry, that paper is finished with.
We're moving on to the next paper.
The next er, paper.
I have to move that under section one hundred A brackets four, the Local Government Act nineteen seventy-two.
The public be excluded from the meeting for the following items on the grounds that they involve the likely disclosure of exempt information as defined in paragraphs eight and one of part one of schedule four A of the  I so move  er, paper G, and I believe we've got,oh, I'm sorry, Morris .
Thank you, Chair.
This paper that set out the  excuse me, the paper set out the details of the I T capital code   goes on to ninety-four, five.
It's the result of a big process by individual departments, erm, it is set out on the basis of departments priorities.
It is shown in the priority all round the  department,.
The paper's presented in two parts.
The first one is the standard format we use on the  getting the information through .
The second part, I thought might be useful to members in explaining in more detail what each of the schemes were about.
The general customer paper is to build on the information structures that we've got, and to actually make the information more available internally and externally to the authority, and also to make use of new technology wherever that is possible.
Erm, that's all I want to actually say in view of the .
You have this paper before us?
Any questions or observations.
Erm, yes, Mr Chairman.
Erm, certainly it's a most interesting paper and er, certainly I think in the County we're doing very much er,think ever possible.
Er,a knowledge  but erm, I would have to move that we cannot accept this recommendation because, it's not that we don't er support the scheme within this  paper, but it's  that we cannot accept.
And maybe you want to know what
and what would happen to the programme  it would be wrong at this point in time, to accept the paper before one knows what the  is of the County Council  as a whole will be.
Erm, no.
Your moving, and so that's a direct negative.
Thank you.
Any other comments?
No.
I'll put it to the vote.
Do you agree with the recommendations on the paper?
Chair.
Against.
Six, Chair.
Good.
Thank you.
That is er, carried.
Paper H.
Mike 
where's Mike, oh you're there, Mike.
Thank you.
Thank you, Chair.
This paper is er, a follow-up to a earlier paper that was presented to this committee back in October ninety-two.
Erm, that paper reported on mortgage loans to employees, including two types of loan whereby the interest is not charged to an officer.
Firstly the sole  bridging loans where the council relocates an employee within the county because admin reorganisation.
And secondly a temporary bridging loans for recruitment purposes, where an employee moves from another area to accept a post.

Margaret?
Yes.
That sort of 
Right.
The Christmas luncheon, we've had the menu come from Mr .
But this is the menu.
Oh!
Here it is.
And erm  we've talked about it in committee and  decided on the menu that is six forty.
Which is the usual sort of Christmas menu, and then there is a choice of er starters  and also desserts, cheese and biscuits and celery, coffee, tea or dinner, and dinner mints.
Six forty plus V A T .
Yes I'm, coming to that.
Oh sorry!
Er yes, er the six forty is plus V A T.
Now they've got V A T as erm  seventeen
seventeen and a half.
Yes.
And with the wine that brings it up to about eight pounds.
But we will  subsidise it from the jumble sale, so  Amy, I hope you have a good jumble  sale !
So that the overall cost each member will be six pounds.
Oh right!
Yeah, six.
Erm  next we , er month, the tickets for the luncheon will be on sale  er, from Rose.
And when you buy your ticket, if you're a vegetarian  please tell Rose  or if you want salad instead of hot vegetables, tell her, and then we  can sort it out with Mr .
Right?
If you could get the right money it would be appreciated.
Yes.
Please bring the right money cos that's such a
Having just given a lot of money back    .
Yes.
That is handy if you could bring just the six pounds.
You know, and erm  then that will be fine.
And that's on erm
Second  isn't it?
The, er second of
The second of December isn't it?
Helen?
I don't know.
Yeah it must, yes.
November.
What day would that be?
I'm just coming to that.
It is on Wednesday.
It is on a Wednesday, the second of September.
I mean, December, sorry!
December.
Now, that would have been a W I committee day  so we've had to alter the committee to the Tuesday, so I'm afraid they'll be no handy craft on Tuesday the first  of December.
No handy craft  because we have to have the hall for a committee meeting.
Cos there's too many of us to go in the little room.
Well can't you send the, the handy craft in the little room Joe?
Because most of us will be on the committee.
Er committee
Right.
which could go in the other room, if they don't want 
Yes.
.
Oh well there will be handy craft.
Yes that's fine.
Yeah.
Fine.
Yeah?
Yes, that's great!
Fine thank you.
The Essex News to Mrs  today if you want to order it, it's ten copies for pound  and Home and County, as you well know, has gone up to ten pounds twenty pence.
Which is rather a lot I think.
It is.
Is there anything coming down?
Nothing.
No.
Not on offer?
Ah!
We've got nothing on offer!
The coffee morning tombola made forty pounds, which was very good!
And erm  Maisy and Freda say that they would still like a few bottles and that for the stall  please.
Er, the donation for the Lion we have sent, I dunno if you've sent it, have you ro Rose?
Fifty 
No I haven't, yet.
No.
No.
Cos erm  th the cheque book is  
Oh yes!
With the auditor.
Well we're going to donate to the Lions fifty pounds from the Victorian Fayre.
There'll be a Christmas Fayre meeting on Tuesday the third November at two thirty in the hall here.
And, that's for stall holders and anybody that would like to come and along and offer their services of help.
Please.
What date's this?
Th , Tuesday the third of November.
And if you've got any money left    er  the calendars and diaries Brenda  has taken the names today  and the money at the same time when you order.
Because the orders have to be in so that, when Rose goes to headquarters she can fix them up.
Margaret have you done the flower list?
Yeah.
Oh!
You have?
Mhm.
About the flower list erm  you know, when it comes to the winter time and you've got, you're getting flowers and they're expensive and that  a display of dried flowers is quite adequate to bring  because, come January time flowers are quite expensive.
Thank you everybody who said they would do them for next year.
Mhm.
Erm, there are five committee members retiring.
I dunno why!
Must be me!
They are  Janice , Win   Mrs   Margaret , and Rose .
Erm  so we wish to thank them all, or I wish to thank them all very much for all their hard work and support they've given me.
Erm  which I couldn't have managed without them.
So erm  the voting papers are out today so please erm  go round and get peoples' names.
But you must ask the person, don't put just somebody's name down, thinking they might go on the committee, erm, you must ask them first before you put their name on the  list.
And then perhaps, Margaret, you'll collect them will you?
And bring them up later?
Yes.
Thank you.
Erm  I don't know if anybody was erm  keen to go to Denman after whe , our outing there which was most enjoyable?
Erm, so if anybody would like to erm put their hand up that would like to go to Denman this coming  year  er, please do so or let Margaret know.
Is there any takers?
Er, will there be a bursary?
Yes.
A bursary of a hundred pounds, yes.
Oh!
There's erm
You have to be a member for two years.
Yes.
And not if you've been before.
No, that's right.
Well Janice   and Margaret sa 
Becky .
No , Becky .
Becky .
And we'll talk about this in committee and  let you know.
Okay?
Okay.
Vera, would you like to say som , oh!
I have to thank Vera for the holiday to Scarborough, not that I went.
It's, it's not next Saturday!
No.
No !
Never mind.
I mean it's, it was next Saturday.
Oh yes!
Well it was, it was from then.
Erm, we wo , I would wish to thank Vera cos it's a lot of work for erm, a lot of worry  and I do hope that you all enjoyed it.
Now, Vera you want to say a word don't you?
Thank you.
First of all, I expect  most of you have heard  that the proposed holiday to Torbay has had to be cancelled  cos we didn't have enough support.
Oh.
And er  if you'll bear with me, I'm having competition about this, with these holidays here I haven't got anything as cheap as that probably.
Oh have you?
Yes Vera!
But those holidays, they're in February!
But 
And they're only two nights.
Yes!
But we don't 
Ah!
But some 
want two nights in the middle of winter!
somebody is  a bit later on in the season  but they're overnight travel by coach I would have thought.
No good!
Vera?
Right.
Oh!
So that's sorted .
I wouldn't have thought they'd be brought forward either.
No.
I shouldn't think so.
It is ho , well you know, I suppose .
Anyway , I have erm  started to arrange a holiday, if you can bear it, for next September, to Newquay.
The price er wi , we depart on the eleventh of September  for eight days  the usual  additions, you know, the coach from here, and everything.
And the price is two hundred and thirty three pounds  with four pounds cancellation fee.
Er, I've got  a couple of brochures here, if you like to have a look at  but don't, please, take them away.
And I've got some itineraries  which you can take away, if you want.
If you'd like to come and get one in tea time.
Er, I should like to the names  next month  and I hope you'll all support us because  the numbers are going down  and if we don't get sufficient numbers, it'll have to cancelled like the Torbay one.
And that's rather a pity because we've been doing these holidays for a long time now, and I think, those people have enjoyed themselves?
Say yes!
Yes!
Erm, I think that's all I can say to you today.
Names next month.
And come and get an itinerary if you want one.
Okay?
Ah.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Right.
Thank you!
Essex News erm  well we couldn't really find anything very exciting in it!
The  club went to Bournemouth.
Er  Shakespeare and Cadbury World  and a Swiss wonder.
Well that's in February, I mean who would go in February to Switzerland?
And erm  there's a five day tour to Dunoon and the Cars of Bute on the first of March.
Half board, a hundred and nine pounds.
Getting a little competition aren't I?
But there's no takers though Vera, have you noticed?
No.
I'm only trying to sell the time then!
Ha!
But you have to do a dance when you want to fill ta time in!
Oh well!
That'll be the finish!
Erm, we've got  for friendship, Harlow's name is mentioned.
Oh!
Well I think that's about all.
I'd, I'm afraid that's all this month in Essex News.
Have you got anything else Margaret, at the moment?
No.
Erm, has the speaker come?
Yes.
Right!
We'll wait then thank you.
Did you get that message Margaret  that I shall be away?
Yes I did.
And you told    
I've put it in my diary.
Oh good!
I've just got
Looks like you won't have a 
Will she be, will she be standing there?
Er
Will she be standing there?
Yes.
Aha.
Probably won't understand a word I said!
She will.
I feel such a natural!
Yeah, it was  
It's  innit?
Ray .
Ray.
Oh!
Margaret this is your seat.
Just put it there cos she wants you to .
Oh is it?
Oh really?
If all these people about were to be quiet
I shall 
I was told the ring the bell so I did.
Yeah.
Good afternoon ladies!
It's very nice to see you all here this afternoon.
My name is Gloria   and I run a beauty salon which is at the end of the high street  by R D
Argins the 
Mm.
jewellers.
Okay?
I've been there two years now.
And Carol has, she joined me in June.
So this is Carol .
So, if any of you would like to come and see us  at the salon  we will both be there and very happy to see  and answer any of your questions.
I would like, at this point, to say thank you for Sh , to Sheila,sh , Sheila , she popped in to ask me would I  do this er  talk for you this afternoon.
So, thank you to Sheila for asking me, and letting us come to your  meeting this afternoon.
It's been a pleasure.
Now, the topic that Sheila asked me to talk about was skin care.
Now, er, there is no  what can I say?
There is no  skin care is a very basic thing.
You don't have to worry, there is no, I can't think of the word that I want to use.
Never too late to start.
Well it's never too late to start with good skin care.
I hope so.
So what is skin care?
What we must do to have good skin is to cleanse, tone, and moisturize.
How many of us do  cleanse, tone and moisturize?
How many of us here use soap and water?
Yes.
Okay.
If you use soap and water, that's fine.
But really, soap is very drying on our skin  and if you didn't use soap and you use a cleanser  you would certainly find a difference immediately.
You don't realize how drying soap is.
So we do try to avoid using soap.
So what we use as a cleanser, is either a cleansing milk  or a cleansing cream.
Now, today I've got two types of products with me, one is Gloria M products that we're going to use as a demonstration, and the other dermatological products that we're going to use as a dem demonstration.
So I'd like two  volunteers later on to come and have their faces cleansed, toned, and moisturized.
And then you can go and tell all your friends how it feels, okay?
Now, the Gloria M products, in that range, we have a cleanser, which is cucumber cleansing milk.
Now, all these products are water soluble which means they can be rinsed off with water.
Gone are the days when you've got these thick creams that you couldn't get off unless you used an alcohol toner to remove them.
So, a cleansing milk  a little a amount in the palm of your hand  put over the face, then rinsed off with warm water and then you can dry your face with a towel  and you would feel then, perhaps, that you'd really washed your face.
Then you must cle you must  use the toner after that.
And the toner really does get rid of  any of the cleanser that you've left on  and closes the pores.
Now the fact that you've rinsed off with water anyway, you shouldn't really have any of the cleansing medium on the skin.
So really we use the toner to close the pores  so that you don't get any creams or any dirt in the pores, so that the skin is nice and clean.
So you cleanse, you tone  and the most important thing after that  okay?
Is to moisturize.
Now in the Gloria M products we do the avocado moisturizer or the vitaminized moisturizer.
Now ladies, I don't mind if you don't cleanse properly  or perhaps you don't even tone  but the moisturizer is the most important, from my point of view.
I feel that the moisturizer will keep your skin nice and soft.
You won't get any flakiness, you won't get any dryness on the skin if you use a moisturizer.
You don't have to use make up  but certainly to cleanse and moisturize is very important.
Now with the dermatological products, I actually haven't bought those with me apart from those that we're going to use as a demo  erm, the have a very nice cleanser called  special cleansing gel, and if you're used to using soap and water  it really is very similar to using soap.
You put a little of the gel in the palm of the hand, use water to lather it, put the lather over your face, and then again, rinse off with warm water  and you feel as if you've used soap and water.
We th , do then have a toner, but you don't necessarily have to use the toner because you've used to water to cleanse off the cleanser.
And then, again, a very important product is the moisturizer.
The moisturizer keeps your skin nice and soft and supple, it doesn't get dry.
Now, don't forget we're coming up to winter, we have the cold winds, we have the rain, if you're not wearing a moisturizer the skin will suffer.
Okay?
It wi , really will get dry, and possibly very red.
You know you get these little red veins on the su , on the  cheek area  if you don't wear  a moisturizer those little red veins can get worse, so we use a moisturizer to try and protect the skin.
So there's no secret about good skin care.
It really is, only, cleanse, tone, and moisturize.
It does depend on the products you use.
If you've got plenty of products at home, fine, use them  okay?
If you haven't, if you're using soap and water, just think about perhaps, whether you should use a cleanser, a toner and a moisturizer.
Alright?
Now, is there anybody here who would like to volunteer to come and have their face, cleansed, toned and moisturized?
Come on!
Yes.
Of course we go back an awful long way don't we?
Yes.
Yeah.
Are you going to tell them how much ?
Er  about .
Forty years?
Forty years!
Forty years I've known Gloria.
Miss  used to be a cam , the, what were you?
Campaigner Chief.
She was a Campaigner Chief when I was a campaigner.
My lovely little girls!
can you Margaret?
Ca , can you see?
Do you want to just  round her neck?
Ooh!
Put a band on, just so that we don't  you know, erm  squash their hair.
That's it.
Now somebody else, we need another volunteer to try the other products er 
Well I'm thinking 
erm 
about it.
Go on!
Just so that we don't get any products on  the clothes.
Right.
That's it.
So Carol is now using the  cucumber cleansing milk and she  if just show the ladies what you're doing Carol, she's just actually tipping it out into the palm of her hand, there's no water necessary, okay?
Rub it into the palm of your hand, and then spread it on to your own face.
It will be nice if you could get somebody to do this for you every day wouldn't it?
Oh yes!
So when you actually are putting it on your own face  make sure that you rub your fingers all around, especially around the nose.
Okay?
You get a build up of black heads around the nose, and around the chin.
Okay?
So, really make sure you spread it over the whole of the face, rubbing it in with your fingers.
Now Carol's doing this beautifully, and it really does feel nice!
Okay?
She's massaging in the cleanser.
And does it feel nice ?
That's lovely!
So once you've got that one, even if you're wearing make up, you can use this cleanser, okay?
It will take the make up, which you might need to use the make up, er the re , er the cleanser  possibly twice, or three times if you're wearing make up.
Okay?
We normally say cleanse twice anyway.
So you should cleanse with your cleanser twice.
If there is make up on  from the first erm removal, then you could then take off the make up with the first application and then go over twice more, so it would be three times if you've got quite a lot of base  or foundation on.
Okay?
So  now Carol's going to use damp pads  damp cotton wool to take off the cleanser.
Now you at home would actually use  warm water to splash over your face.
Now if you notice Carol's movements, they are always in a an upward direction  and the reason for this is so that you don't drag the skin, so when you're  whatever you're doing with your face,whe , when you're cleansing, toning, and moisturize, always try and keep the movements going up  because you don't want to stretch the face, you don't want to make any  any loose skin any looser than it is 
Mm mm.
or  or bring any more erm, little wrinkles or little lines that we have.
Now we're going to tone.
And the toner actually closes the pores, because we may have opened those pores slightly by using the cleanser, and also, if there is any cleanser left on the skin the toner will remove that as well.
And the toner we're using is rosemary skin tonic, and that's erm  from the herb, rosemary.
It feels nice and it's, it is very good for the skin.
It usually is cold.
Mm?
So once you've cleansed, and once you've toned  you then make sure that the face is either tissued dry or you can actually pad to your face, after the toner, with a towel.
As long as it's dry before you apply the moisturizer.
Have you gone to sleep down there?
Carol's now going to tissue dry  the toner.
And now the skin is perfectly clean  and it can be  ah, it can have  the moisturizer on it.
Carole's using the avocado moisturizer which is very creamy  it contains avocado oil, which is very good for the skin  and it's a natural product.
If you feel, ladies, that when you put your moisturizer on and the skin is still feeling quite dry, put another application of your moisturizer on.
Alright?
And do make sure you put plenty of moisturizer on the cheeks and on the nose, because they're areas that actually do hit the elements  more than the other parts of the face.
Not to forget the neck, the neck is part of the face  and this is where we show the  the lines don't we?
Around the neck.
So if you massage in the neck with your moisturizer with upward movements it will help those lines.
Okay?
It won't take them away  once they're there they don't disappear, but it does help to ease them, they don't look quite so deep.
Alright.
If you actually massage  the cream into the  the neck.
Mhm?
Right.
How does that feel?
That's fine.
Yes?
Am I finished with now?
Nearly.
And yo do you want to straighten your hair?
Mm mm.
Right.
Would you like sit down?
Yes.
Oh!
That's it!
Alright?
Thank you very much.
Do you have ?
Can we thank  Margaret?
Thank Margaret for being a volunteer 
okay?
Please may we have another volunteer?
And this is Molly.
So she's going to have the dermatological products used on her this afternoon.
Do you usually use soap and water on your face?
Yes.
Molly uses soap and water to wash her face so we're going to use  the cleansing gel which lathers up like soap.
Alright?
And we'll see, we'll ask her what she fe , what it feels like on her skin  to see if it feels better than soap.
So Carol's using the gel and she's making it into a lather.
Alright?
It's just a little gel that you put in the palm of your hand  use some warm water and lather it up and put the lather over your face.
And again, make sure that you use your finger to go round the nose, and over the fore head, around the eyes.
And another thing about  directions of, of your hands, upward movements all the time, and make sure with the eye area, go in towards the nose, because if you keep bringing
Mm.
your movements coming outwards you stretch the skin and you make even more lines come around that area.
Oh that's nice!
So, take your fingers from the outside and move them in towards the nose and round  so that you don't stretch the skin even more.
Look at your hands!
Perhaps we just need a little more water to make a bit more lather.
.
Now of course, if you went to a salon 
.
for a a facial cleanse you would actually laid on a couch, like this, and er have a head band and have a towel round you  and you have nice soft music playing  alright?
Mm.
So 
And 
sing everybody!
and then the therapist will actually cleanse, tone and moisturize.
And you would actually, in a facial, you would have a facial massage with aromatherapy oils  and that's very relaxing, that's very nice.
Sounds like .
So we've got the cleansing gel on and now we're going to remove it.
Carol's uses, using sponges to take off the gel.
Yes.
We haven't got any more.
.
The sponges feel nice and soft, they don't drag the skin.
And it is important, ladies, to remove all the cleanser, not to leave any on the skin.
So do make sure that whatever cleanser you're using, make sure it all comes off.
Because if it doesn't, your moisturizer, which is very important, isn't working properly.
Because there's not the ingredients in the cleanser that there is the moisturizer and if you have any cleanser on the skin it's blocking the work of the moisturizer.
So we've cleansed off the cleanser now  going to tissue dry  Now toner is in a spray bottle, so we're going to gently use the spray over Molly's face.
Close her eyes, it's a very gentle spray.
Mm mm?
It's like raindrops.
And then we're going to use a very nice cream  erm called moisture balance  and that's a dermatological product  and, and that's for keeping the skin nice and soft, and keeping the wrinkles at bay.
And again, when you're putting on the moisturizer, don't forget the neck.
And always use upward movements.
Can you do the neck?
And how's it feeling Molly?
That's really lovely!
You could do this all day long!
It is very relaxing, really.
I tell you something, it's much better than the operating table!
In fact, some people when they do come into the salon they say, ooh it's like an operating theatre!
It's not really.
It's quite pretty in there.
It's just I think, when there's a couch and there's white tissues over the couch it probably can look a little bit clinical.
But certainly, we don't operate.
We don't amputate.
We don't do anything in that line!
Thank goodness for that!
I can   but it is, but it is nice.
What was tha er tha that one??
No, this is the dermatological.
Yes.
Oh.
This has a lemon grass in
Yeah.
which you can actually smell.
Would you like sit up Molly?
Yeah.
Right.
Back down again.
The only thing, ladies, when you have a facial, your hair get slightly squashed.
with that on.
So don't go to the hairdressers before you us, alright?
Go to the hairdressers after 
Yeah.
we've seen you.
Good.
There we are.
There you go.
Can we have a clap for Molly for 
Yes!
for being our volunteer?
They were just very quick demonstrations, but it does take longer if you come to a salon.
But, with yourselves, do make sure you cleanse properly  I'm not too worried about your toner, but you must use a moisturizer, just to make sure that your skin is nice and soft and supple.
Okay?
And if you want to wear make up then of course, make up goes over the top of your moisturizer.
Okay?
Erm, I have brought some price lists here, and I think we've got some time, Sheila, what time am I  finishing?
Erm, well you, it really doesn't matter.
It's up to her.
About erm twenty past three.
I dunno what the time is now.
Well I said, you know 
It's three o'clock.
It's er  about quarter past three.
About quarter past 
Yeah.
three.
So that's a little time.
So I've got a little time to speak?
Yes.
Yes.
Erm, if you would like a price list, by all means, at the end you can come up and take one.
Erm, I'll have some brochures going around, some leaflets going round just  advertizing what we do  but if, I'd like to just mention to you that erm, there are other, other treatments that we do, of course, at the salon.
We do, a selection of facials, all  are very nice  erm, we also do eyebrow shaping, eyebrow trimming, some people would call that  erm  and removal of facial hair.
Sometimes, people have problems with doing eyebrows, if they wear glasses
Mm!
you can't see your own eyebrows can 
No.
you?
And, you take your glasses off to do your eyebrows and
You can't see them.
you can't see
you put your glasses on to try and see, and you can't  pluck the eyebrows because the glasses are in the way  so we do quite a lot of eyebrow trimming, erm  at salon.
And what we do with the eyebrows, we don't just use a pair of tweezers  we actually use wax, so if you've got quite a lot of hair underneath  your brow, we never take from above the brow, just below, if you've got quite a lot of hair, it can be painful if you're just using tweezers, so what we do now  we use a little bit of hot wax, which is pink, so we put some wax under the brow, either side, let the wax  erm, cool and set, and then pull the wax off.
Ooh!
Yes.
And everybody says,so ooh!
It's really not too painful, it sounds painful, but if you think of the eye area being very small, it really doesn't take long.
The wax is on for about two minutes, and it takes two seconds to pull it off.
And when we pull the wax off, all the hairs are in the wax  so the majority of the hair is out in one pull.
Then we use our tweezer to actually shape the eyebrow.
And then after that we have some soothing gel put on the eyebrow so that, the skin is slightly pink so that when you actually have a, erm, an eyebrow trim, the soothing gel takes away the pinkness.
And that would last six to eight weeks ladies.
Oh lovely!
It's it's  very nice treatment.
Erm  a lot of us are bothered by eyebrows  some of us have got really long coarse hair that grow in the eyebrows and we take those out as well.
So don't ever be frightened of having an eyebrow trim because it really is a very simple treatment.
And the other part of facial waxing is, on the chin, we tend to get quite a few growing on our chin, and upper lip.
There are two things we can do with hair on the upper lip, we can either bleach it so that it doesn't notice, or we can actually remove it with wax, or we can have electrolysis.
Now electrolysis is the permanent removal of hair by the insertion of a very small needle attached to a machine  and you press the button on the needle holder which releases current, and that cooks the hair, it actually cooks the root of the hair, but each hair has to be individually treated, so if you've got quite a lot of coarse hair  it can take a lot of time, and a lot of money.
Okay?
Normally, the time is fifteen minutes, and for fifteen minutes it's five fifty, so if you've got a lot of hair, it's quite coarse, it's going to go on for several months.
So if you didn't really want to embark on that treatment  we again, use the waxing treatment  as for the eyebrows, we use ca ho , hot wax on the area that you need, on the chin, on the upper lip.
A small piece of  warm, of hot wax applied to the area, it's set, pulled off, and the all the hairs come away in the wax.
And it feels really very smooth afterwards.
It doesn't take long, it's just, really, seconds.
It doesn't hurt because it's pulled off so quickly, and when we pull it off, we put our finger straight over the area and it takes the sting away.
So really, it's not ma , you know, don't be frightened about having waxing.
So we do the, waxing for the chin, and for the upper lip.
So, you see, you've got other methods, you've got waxing, you've got bleaching, you've got electrolysis.
But I would think, possibly, waxing would be the thing that, the treatment that perhaps you might consider.
If you are worried about facial hair, they're out in just seconds.
Okay?
So, along with your eyebrows, and along with your facial hair  and along with your erm  skin treatment, your facial, you'll feel a new person won't you?
Yes?
Really will feel nice!
And what else do you?
We do manicures, and we do pedicures.
Manicures are,i , are ideal for trimming your nails, pushing down the cuticles, and making your nails look into a nice shape and nice and clean.
You don't necessarily have to have bright coloured polish on at the end.
We can buff them until they shine, or you can have just a natural erm  base coat on just to give it a shine.
And then we do pedicures.
Now, pedicures is really a manicure of the toes, but what we do with a pedicure, we actually rub away the hard skin that you may have on the bottom of your feet, on the side of your big toe, that's usually where it builds up, or on the ball of the foot.
We are not chiropodists, we don't actually cut away the hard skin because that i is a chiropodist's job, but we certainly do have a good try at trying to get rid of as much hard skin as we can.
We soak the feet in nice, erm, antiseptic soapy water, and when we think the feet have soaked enough for the skin to become soft, we take the feet out and then we rub with a foot file to get rid of the hard skin.
You have a nice foot and leg massage, which really does make you feel nice.
You feel, at the end of the treatment you feel as if you're walking on air!
It's really a very nice treatment.
A after the, the foot and leg massage, erm, we actually cut the toe nails and we file the toe nails  and again, sometimes toe nails aren't terribly easy to cut yourselves, we can't always get down there can we?
And also, the toe nails get very thick, and quite hard to cut as we get older, so we actually do that for you, we've got toe nail clippers that make it a lot easier.
And once we've clipped the nails, we actually file the nail so that it's nice and smooth and it doesn't catch on your tights or it doesn't catch on the sheets at night.
So, that is another nice treatment that makes you feel better.
Okay?
So that's a, a pedicure, which helps you to have your toe nails nice and short and to get rid of the hard skin.
So what else do we do?
We do  body massage  or back and shoulder massage.
Now, if any of you get terribly tense at the back of shoulders which we all seem to do nowadays, if you come for just a back and shoulder massage, we actually work on the back of the neck and along the shoulders using massage movements which helps to relax you, which helps to actually break down the lactic acid that builds up in the muscles that causes you pain.
You don't realize, ladies, how much you sort of, keep your shoulders up  with tension.
I mean, I do the same thing, I get home at night and I'm like this!
And I think tt!
Oh!
I need a massage!
But Carol and I never seem to get time to be able to do these things on each other, but we have had the treatment so we do know that  massage really does help you to relax.
So that's another treatment perhaps, that you might like to consider.
It doesn't mean that you've got to take all your clothes off, not at all!
You lie on your front and we actually take, ask you to take either your dress or your blouse off  and we put towels over you.
If you're wearing a bra we just undo your bra, okay?
And then we work on the back.
There's nobody else there, there is nobody else looking at you.
A, a curtain is used to screen you off, and if it's a very cold day we've got infra-red heat  we've got a lamp above the he , the couch and  we actually put on the infra-red heat so we warm you up first before you start, before we start  so your body is feeling nice and warm and you're feeling relaxed, we have nice music playing and it does help  right, with the tension that builds up on the shoulders.
Oh!
So that's something else to think about.
I'm telling you all this, and perhaps you don't have to erm  pay for any of these treatments  we do gift vouchers, so if you've got anybody who wants to buy you a gift of any sort, you could always say well, I fancy erm  an eyebrow trim, or I fancy a pedicure  perhaps they would like to buy you a gift voucher and then you can come in and it could be a present for you.
So you wouldn't necessarily have to pay out for these treatments, you see.
So erm  you know, if you, if you  er, don't know what  to say to your family to buy for Christmas, why not come and have a eyebrow trim and they can buy you a gift voucher for that?
So, you know, we're always there, Carol and I will actually help you, if you'd like to pop into the salon  and ask about the  gift vouchers.
A gift voucher can be of any value.
Alright?
You don't have to actually look at the price list and say  oh well I'll have  a back and shoulder massage, which is ten pound, you don't have to have anything for ten pound, you can have it as little as five pounds, two pound fifty, we don't mind, it can go towards a treatment.
Or, if that person buys you a gift voucher and you don't necessarily want to have  a treatment that states on the gift voucher, you can come and exchange it for products.
We're not worried, we're not actually keeping you to anything that's  down on the gift voucher.
But perhaps it would be nice if somebody gave you a gift voucher for Christmas and it said an eyebrow trim, and you were dying to have an eyebrow trim but you didn't know where to come, and perhaps you were a little bit frightened about having one, so, it might, you know, get you to come into the salon.
And now that you know that Carol and I are there  erm, you know somebody to speak to, cos sometimes you go into a shop and you're not really sure who's there, and when you see a face that you recognize it helps you doesn't it?
Are there are any questions you would like to ask?
What kind of erm  aromatherapy do you pu put on your face?
A what?
Aromatherapy on your face?
Yes.
Aha.
You know the therapy oils?
Aha.
Erm, when we do a skin treatment we actually do a skin analysis  and we use the appropriate  erm, aromatherapy oils for the particular skin we're working on.
We have a selection of er three small bottles and they have a mixture of essential oils in them
Mm.
and it does depend on what skin type we're treating.
Sometimes we're se , we're treating a very sensitive skin, sometimes we're stre , we're treating a very dry skin, or it could be dry and sensitive.
So it does depend on what skin type, and we actually choose the erm  aromatherapy oils according the skin type.
Yeah.
And, I must say ladies, they do smell very nice!
And when we are actually doing the massage i the massage itself is relaxing but to have the sweet smelling  erm, essential oils being used as well, it really is very nice!
Any more questions?
.
Do you know where we are at the top of the high street?
Not really no.
I know where you are.
But I wondered if everybody else knew.
Okay.
Do you er, actually know erm  where the George is?
Or it used to be the George.
Mm.
The big white building at the other side of the er, pedestrian crossing.
Yes.
About five yards.
If you just continue five yards, that's right 
and then Jasmine Flowers is in the corner, and then the salon is just at  er it  joins on to Jasmine Flowers.
It has a black canopy over the front  and it says Health and Beauty Salon, with a telephone number  and at the side of the door it says Gloria M.
And please, if you come up to the door and the  times of opening says closed on there, we're not closed, it's just sometimes we've forgotten to change the closed to open.
But do come in.
You know, sometimes we walk in first thing in the morning and we start straightaway and we forget to turn the er  closed to open.
So, you know, mind you, we've left it now and it says open  and we're not, we're here with you!
Are you open every day?
We are open Tuesdays through to Saturdays.
We close all day Monday, Tuesday's we're there from nine thirty to five thirty.

Erm can you tell me where you were born and when please.
Street, off  Road in nineteen erm let's see.
You're eighty nine so  eighteen ninety six would it be?
Four.
Eighteen ninety four.
That's it eighteen ninety four was when I was born.
Can you remember anything about the house you were born in?
Oh it was an ordinary er street row of houses.
Terraced houses?
, they're all attached you know.
Just all two up and two down was where I was born and er I was er christened at  Church by Canon .
Did you have any brothers and sisters?
I had two brothers.
Were they older or younger than you?
One was two years older than me and the other was five years younger than me.
And they've er they've both died and one was killed in the First World War.
And the other one er died at home.
After the Second World War.
But they both were in the services.
In the First World War?
Yes, and er my younger brother was in the Second World War.
Can you remember much about the house, how, how long did you live there for?
Oh I should say we'd lived there ten years.
And it was there that my father started his er lace factory.
He er he used to work from four in the morning till ten o'clock at night and he used to doss in the factory, didn't come home,
Where was the factory?
The factory was in er  Str , Street, Factory in  Street, up off  Road.
And he'd er worked himself up from one lace machine until he'd got twelve.
And then er the the the lace trade he he worked on, when women wore high collars, boned high collars and he made the little narrow edging lace about like that and it was goffered so it made a frill round the face.
And he er he'd made all that lace, well then instead of him going in the First World War and making the net which was used you see his lace trade all went.
Well then he started at , in a factory there at  with er more modern machines, but the factory was too cold, a factory has to be a certain heat to work the lace machines properly.
And he came back to er  and started again and er he'd just er er the big manufacturer engineering er people made us lace machines then and they started him off with three, and he'd paid off one and part of the other when he died.
And it was the First World War that killed him, he had a brain damage, you know a stroke.
And died.
Was he actually fighting in the First World War or?
My father, no, no he was too old then, no my brothers both were but er.
No me elder brother was, not me second brother, that was the Second World War he was in.
Me elder brother was in the First World War and he er he got married and er she was a flighty sort of girl and she wasn't attending to er Mabel properly, the little girl, she had a girl and a boy.
And er she asked us to have her.
He did before he went away, asked her if we'd look after her and we had her until she was seven years old.
We brought her up practically.
I made all her clothes.
I remember making her a little black satin coat and Dutch bonnet with things sticking out and all edged with lace and it was all er black satin and underneath the bonnet was er pleated er blue chiffon.
Did your mother make your clothes when you were a child?
My clothes?
Yes she did.
Yes she made my clothes.
Until I was old enough to make my own.
And er I started er with a doll, my father bought me a doll and it taught me how to er dress me.
And they used to buy me new material to encourage me and I learnt how to sew from that.
Was this something you did after school in the evenings?
Well then I went to a private school on  Road, two maiden ladies kept that, and we were taught to er walk properly, sit properly, dance, music, learnt the piano there, and embroider, and erm chiefly the educational side of schooling was almost non-existent.
What age were you when you went there?
Well I was there pretty well until I, fourteen, until I left school.
Did you go there from five?
I went, no, no, I went there from er I think I should be somewhere about ten.
Where did you go before then?
Well  er School, but I never went to school not un , at five.
As far as I can remember that.
I've never seen, I I only remember schooling from this school.
And I remember going to er  Road School for a month and we caught ringworms there.
And er we left and we never went back there, that's when I went to the private school.
And my brothers both went to er, a headmaster from the high school set up on his own and they both went there, and that was at the corner of  Avenue on  Road.
Cos we lived at the top of the second hill, opposite erm Doctor  s er house, the famous eye surgeon.
That photograph that I've got where it's all snowy's his house and we lived just opposite.
When did you move up there?
Ooh I don't know what age I'd be when we went up there.
You say you were about ten.
I should say about ten.
And was that a much bigger house than the one in, on  Street 
Oh yes that was ordinary er row of houses,the one at  was a detached house, stood in it's own grounds.
And I remember four stone steps led up to the front door, and we'd what they called a parlour then.
And then my parents had a big er lean- to built at the side of the house and we had a full size billiard table in there.
And it, they used to entertain ever such a lot my parents did.
What did they do?
Have parties and 
Enter Ooh and we had some marvellous parties.
And there was a, two friends of theirs who were courting and he'd got a pimple on the end of his nose.
And from that he was king of the pimps.
And then we had this man that used to come from India and he was called the Viceroy of India.
And they'd all got er status symbols you see and it was quite a ceremonial thing that they used to have.
And we had marvellous Christmas parties too.
And we had a house full of people at Christmas time.
Were these people who were staying at the house?
We had er they were sleeping all over everywhere at Christmas time, on the floor,seem to remember dozens of people then and we kept two maids then and a gardener.
At that time.
And did they all live in the house as well.
Yes.
Where wold the maids sleep?
Did they they had sep 
They slept in the same bedroom as me because we were er limited to bedroom space but we had girls because we were doing such a lot of entertaining, there was a lot of work.
What were they like the two the maids, were they young girls?
we never thought anything about it you know.
They were not er they were old enough to to work, they were much older than me.
In fact when I er er periods started it was them that told me all about it not me mother and didn't never think then about st er sex or anything, not a thing, I was as innocent as day was born when I was eighteen.
the difference of children of today.
Were you quite, you were friendly with the maids then, was it like  
Oh very friendly with them, yes.
I tell you they did more for me than my own mother did.
Yes they were very friendly.
What sort of work did the maids do in the house?
Did they do everything?
They did everything, yes, cooking and all the lot.
One cooked and the other one house worked.
Mother didn't do any.
What did your mother do then?
Just a  lady of leisure.
Er 
What would she go shopping and things like that?
Er every night they used to play cards and when I was eighteen my father made me learn cards.
He made me play cards, I'd played ordinary auction bridge at that time.
But he made me do it, I didn't want to do it, but he he he made me do it.
So we used to play auction bridge every night.
Not as it's played today though.
It's played totally different today, ours was quite mediocre to how it's played today.
Were you always included in your parents parties even from when you were younger ?
Oh yes, yes, yes.
We  and we had some marvellous Christmas parties because we used to play all sorts of games.
And I remember one game in particular it always stuck in me mind.
Somebody used to sit on the carpet at one end of the room with a walking stick and a chalk mark in front of him and the contestants used to have to come up to him and try to rub the marking out and he used to rap the hands with his walking stick.
I can remember that game ever so well.
It must have been a bit painful.
Well you used to be as cute as they were, you used to watch fingers, you didn't get them rattled.
Yes you were just as cute as they were.
Did it have a name, that game?
If it did I don't remember it.
What about any other games?
yes, we used to play consequences.
What, with a bit of paper?
Yes you know.
And pass them round and everybody used to write differently.
Y that still is a good game to play today.
You can have a real old giggle at that.
Real fun.
But er I don't remember any other games.
We used to paly croquet on the lawn.
We'd a full size lawn with a croquet and badminton.
We used to paly badminton on the lawn.
It was a full size lawn.
Where exactly was the house?
It was on  Road?
On  Road between  Grove and  Park entrance.
Just there.
Can you tell me a little bit more about this school that you went to?
You said it was run by two maiden ladies 
Maiden ladies 
What was there name?
I couldn't even tell you that now.
I can  remember  the butcher that was a butcher on  Road.
His sons went there.
It was 
So 
a mixed school boy and girl .
Oh it was mixed 
Yes mixed school.
And we used to do these er pictures that u used to be on er grey and blue paper and we used to, with white  paint we used to make a sort of anything there and then with erm charcoal sticks we used to draw on it.
Houses and animals and all sorts of things.
We did that we used to make some lovely pictures, and I never saved any.
I've not the foggiest idea where they were now.
But er I'd two that I used to have on the wall at home I can remember.
But they've gone with time.
No interest in them.
What other things did you do at this school?
Embroidery  embroidery and then they taught us French.
We learnt French there.
And English and simple arithmetic.
Was it a big school then?
How many people would you say 
I remember that I had piano lessons there you see and dancing lessons there.
Deportment  there.
How many people went to the school roughly would you say ?
Oh I should say there'd be about thirty pupils there, mixed boys and girls.
So were the classes mixed?
Did you have subjects together?
Oh yes we the boys were taught along with the girls, yes we were, we were all on, just in the one room.
Yes just in the one room.
Was it near where you lived?
Yes well it was er we lived at the top of the second hill and this school was at the bottom.
Between  Street and er  Street.
Which the council school was on  Road.
Big council school.
And did you say your brothers didn't go there though, they went to a different school?
Well they went to a boys school you see afterwards.
Th this headmaster from the er  from the er  posh school erm I forget it's name.
The high school?
High school.
he set up on his own you see and my brothers went there.
And you you were at this school till you were fourteen?
Yes until I left.
And what, did you have nay thoughts of what you would do when you left school?
No didn't go any where at all just stayed at home.
And then after about two years when Father le realized that the lace trade was going he said, must to put to a trade.
Because er we don't know what's going to happen and she must be able to earn her own living.
So they put me to millinery.
Well we used to start to make hats form a coil of wire.
We built the shapes up, and it was the the high class shop in , was two sisters on  Gate, that er we went to sh er sch er shop and er we used to make these shapes from the coil of wire, these'll be very nippers that I used, there and still use them today ever so useful.
But those are what I used to make the wire shapes.
And erm then we used to have straw and inch wide by the yard.
And we used to stitch round and round and round making the shape on this wire.
And then we used to trim it and er a hat there made of just the straw with a band and bow was over three pound which was a lot of money in those days.
You used to er , the Goose Fair people, always came and bought half a dozen hats.
And er they were always er it was never an open shop, they were always sold by appointment.
And er they used to trade up and down this room, Miss  I'll be wearing such and such a dress and it'll be such and such a colour and er then we used to make the hat for it.
And they al always used to order half a dozen hats.
And as an apprentice you, I was a year there for nothing, a ye , half a year for half a crown, half a year for five shillings, and at the end of five years I was earning fourteen shillings.
And er in the apprentice we used to have to go round the shops on the town matching their er material in velvets and ribbons and satin for making their hats of, as well as the straw we made them from material as well.
And I used to trail round all these shops.
What exactly did you do when you went round the shops?
You had to collect?
Collect patterns, take them back and the head used to pick and then we used to have to go and buy what they wanted you see, the amount of material they wanted.
Can you remember any of the customers who came to the shop?
What sort of people apart from the
Only the fair people.
And  used to have a er shop in erm  Street selling sheet music.
They used to er trade.
And then this butcher on  Road, I remember they used to trade.
So what what hours did you work at this this hat shop?
Nothing only making hats.
Yeah, but how how long was you working day?
When did you start and when did you finish?
Eight in the morning till eight at night.
Five days a week?
Yes.
And did you have any breaks for for lunch or anything?
We used to have an hour and a quarter fro lunch, half an hour for tea, and we used to er have to get the principal's tea ready and in the midmorning they always had tea made of milk.
I remember boiling the milk and pouring it on the tea leaves.
They always had it.
And er the bread and butter for their tea had to be cut wafer thin.
I was clever at that.
They always had me cutting this er bread and butter.
What would you actually do then, you said you sat round a table, you told me about that, the table with the white cloth.
Yes.
There used to be a long table and the head used to sit at the end of this table and so to see that you didn't leave off working she used to get the table cloth and  always be pulling this table straight.
And be looking round.
This and and looking round to see that you were working.
Were you allowed to talk to the other girls or anything?
You didn't have time to do much talking you were so busy sewing.
It was real graft.
How many other girls worked there, round the table ?
Oh I should er I should think there'd be about ten.
Ten of us.
Cos it was a long table with a white cloth on.
I remember this white cloth.
How did you get the the apprenticeship in the first place?
Did your father arrange it for you?
I don't know how they came to to send me there.
Whether it was advertised or what but how I came to be there I wouldn't know.
Don't remember that.
How do you like that?
Oh it's beautiful.

Welcome back.
Right, this week an Army lieutenant was jailed for fifteen months after a court martial heard him plead guilty to seven charges relating to bullying and humiliating new recruits.
The sentence on the Staffordshire Regiment officer is subject to confirmation but the question we're asking is how often are other recruits subject to bullying and intimidation?
Brigadier, how often?
Well of course I can't possibly give you any figure of how often, but bullying occasionally happens in the Army.
And may I say very clearly and unequivocally at the outset, that it is abhorrent when it does happen to us because there's no place for it, quite simply because er it is counterproductive to cohesion, and cohesion is the basis for operational effectiveness, and when there is an incident of bullying then we very promptly and thoroughly investigate it, and that investigation is followed, if there's a case to be brought, by a trial of the chap that's guilty.
And may I say also
Please do.
that we're well aware of the fact that when we're doing this, of course there's usually a degree of adverse publicity.
That is subordinate to the business of routing out the cancer where it occurs.
from you than the statement you've just made er and I think you'll be you used the word abhorrent, I think you'll be abhorred by some of the er stories you're about to hear.
If I can come to you Andrew , you were in the Royal Highland Fl Fusiliers, what 
That's correct.
happened to you?
Basically  the full time I was in basic training and when I went to the Regimental the Royal Highl Fusiliers Regiment the first battalion, I was physically beaten and mentally tortured er into the same bargain.
Well what do you mean by mentally tortured?
Well they can physically do it to you with use of fists, use of hands and whatever else they've got and they can mentally do it to you like put you in jail that  or all sorts of things like when I was on sick leave, they came and lifted me.
Right well t t tell me about the physical abuse, what sort of things were they doing to you Andrew.
Beat ya up.
N C Os, noncommissioned officers beat ya up, and a above them as well.
You get 
So 
in a battle camp, you're supposed to be  learning how to fight in a war and basically they beat ya up, and in camp as well, it happens in camp too.
And did did you see th w was it widespread, did you see it happening to other people?
It's very widespread.
Actually I  witnessed a guy being raped in the Army.
That was by that was by normal recruits but it still happens it, actually the the bullying goes down the line.
The N C Os bully, the officers bully the N C Os, the N C Os bully the privates and the privates bully the privates.
It goes down the line, all the way down the line.
It's a nons it's a non 
If you're bullied, you bully somebody else 
Aye.
and so on and so on?
let me just get back that was abhorrent as a word w has already been used and er should be used again by what you said, you saw s somebody being raped by two soldiers.
Did you try and help that particular soldier?
I did, I did, I s actually put a stop to it.
That's 
So that was a brave thing to do?
I wouldn't say it was brave it was a normal thing to do, wasn't brave, there was nothing brave about that.
Was just a normal thing to do  
You'd expect yeah y you'd expect somebody to do that for you of course.
Of course I would.
Did you find wh when you were being bullied or when other people were being physically intimidated that other soldiers would help them or would they just stand by and let it happen?
Basically you'd er just stand back and ha Actually in my platoon of fifty men it happened to me more than it happened to anybody else because I came from Glasgow.
Oh he's a Glasgow hard man let's get him.
I came from a rough area so that's the way it worked.
So they find your particular weakness, your Achilles heel and th they'd go for that.
Brigadier, evidently and we've heard lots and lots of these stories, and you've said you think it's the occasional example but you're doing all you can to stamp it out, but evidently the Army is a haven for bullies, sadists and rapists.
Well it's not of course, that's absolute rubbish and of the cases that we'll have here tonight, each of them if they are true are very very er unfortunate indeed,an and I wouldn't condone any of them if they're true.
The fact is of course that what we're seeing here is a tiny minority of people, and I could bring thousands of people here tonight who've been in the services, thousands of parents of those people who've been in the services, who would give you a very very different story.
So I think we should get it in perspective.
We're seeing just a few cases and I don't deny the fact that occasionally there are bullies in the Army.
But there's certainly not a haven for bullies or no nor is it endemic in any way at all.
Well some people would claim it is endemic.
Some people would actually claim that there is a culture of bullying within the military infrastructure.
But let's t let's t 
Well I would deny that  
Well let's talk let's talk to Richard .
Richard er er h these are occasional examples and they're very very rare.
I would disagree with that.
I would disagree with that a lot.
Well what's your experience?
Well erm apart from my own experience erm I witnessed, I couldn't even m er name as many erm instance of bullying that went on in my regiment  erm and for all different kinds of reasons you know.
Erm in my regiment I was in
You were in the Grenadier Guards?
I mean I was the on I was the only black guy in the regiment erm for a very long time and erm you know it didn't it doesn't matter what colour you are erm apart from my case, there was if you was erm if you were slow on your runs or you wasn't good at at cleaning your kit you would get bullied.
And it was severe bullying.
And it wasn't a case of just a few beatings and that 
it was just disgusting stuff you know.
What sort of stuff?
Well I mean there was an incidence where erm maybe a guy who didn't clean himself very often they would er a whole group of guys would find it funny to take him into the toilet erm fill a bath up with half with water, put bleach in it erm excrete in it, urinate in it and put him in hit, hit him with ba erm brushes, all kinds of stuff like that.
Let's let's make it clear.
Are these occasional examples that you're  
They weren't occasional at all, not in my regiment, no.
And this was in training as well.
But is this not something you just have to put up with if you join the Army?
It's it's part of the toughening up process .
No I do no, that's rubbish.
I don't who said that but that's rubbish.
That i it doesn't toughen you up at all.
It doesn't toughen you up, it just turns you into a bag of nerves basically.
Aha.
You've got two choices, you either stay and you take it or you leave.
If you leave, you get caught, you get put in jail.
If you leave do you feel you've lost?
I mean there is a school of thought that 
Yeah.
says if you can't take how would you be able to handle the front line .
If you leave, if you leave let's say if you get caught and sent back then you're gonna get back you know twice as much as you had for the reason for leaving.
Have you learnt anything from the experience?
Yeah I've learnt a lot basically, I've learnt erm erm  basically what sort of organization that is and those other ones I could mention as well which run along the same sort of lines erm I've learnt to look after myself
Has it toughened you up?
Yeah it has.
So some people might say perhaps perversely that it th it has achieved its desired effect, it's toughened you up .
I think that depends on the individual.
Well David Lightbown I mean er the brigadier said that these are very very occasional examples but from these stories that these gentlemen are telling us, and who are we to disbelieve them,the they make their claims, this is a very very serious problem in the Army.
Perhaps some sensitivity is n needed for our young recruits, perhaps a a type of counselling is needed to help them?
Would you agree with that?
No I don't.
Erm I go along with the brigadier on this, I don't approve of any of the things I've heard this evening, and I don't believe that that is the normal course of action in the Army.
I've been a soldier myself, I was a soldier a long long time ago and er er training was different in my day to what it is today.
But I also have one of the largest training regiments in my constituency, and I see that unit erm in action a couple of times a year if if no more.
Now by and large it's a tough game being a soldier.
And the difference between being tough and responding rapidly to instruction and discipline and bullying is something that er you have to denote er i in this discussion tonight .
Right fair enough, that's er that's a very fair point but is being thrown in a bath er full of excreta, bleach and urine part of the toughening process ?
No it's not it's qu it's quite disgraceful and nobody would approve of that and the co th th th th the Army if they got hold of anybody on that basis, they would court martial them immediately and they'd be very severely dealt with .
that yeah can I answer that 
Andrew.
Now you would court martial them well I put it to the S I B
S I B what's that?
That's the Special Investigation Branch .
Special Investigation Branch.
All the allegations I made, all the beatings I took, I'm bleeding  they investigated nothing, and what the brigadier said, the brigadier is talking nonsense.
He knows that the Army is w widespread in the Army and he .
It's like everything else you  company commander, you tell him, he throws it out the window.
He sends you away  make you feel happy 
Do you know I've served in the Army for thirty three years and I've commanded every thing at every level in the infantry which both these gentlemen have been in, from a platoon right up now to a brig er brigade and I can honestly tell you that I haven't seen more than a couple of incidents of bullying in the whole of that time .
You're a commissioned officer  
The point is the point is that's that's a good point what you've said you don't see it.
That's the whole point.
You come at a barrack room as an officer
Mm.
or a corp it doesn't matter,
Mhm.
You'll see it.
with rank on your arm
Yeah.
the soldiers i that room will act a different way 
I I agree.
when the door shuts  
I understand that.
a different way again 
they will .
I can understand that , I can understand that.
But it's a matter leadership.
And leadership in the Army is some 
Leadership has got nothing to do with it whatsoever.
Leadership  
It's just a case of it's just a case of a few individuals or people with rank who think they've go so much power they're gonna press people
Yes I'm sorry to hear that people in rank in your particular case were involved  
Yeah well we've got a job to do if you're a soldier you've got a job to do okay, you've got a bit of training, you've got a job to do
Right absolutely
yeah you don't need no distractions, and bullying and bullying 
I quite agree, I quite agree 
and racism and all that,distractions  
I quite agree  
and if you're gonna send people to Northern Ireland and places like that you want 'em to defend the next soldier?
Well c could I just come in?
But they do.
David Lightbown yes David Lightbown .
Andrew I'll let you back in.
in a minute,in a minute.
I I certainly didn't go in in in in with a rank on my shoulder, I went in as a recruit.
But you said  
But when I when I when I trained as recruit I trained with a lot of other er lot of other people .
But that was in different days, this is nineteen ni 
There was no easy way out in my day you w yo y 
One second Andrew, I'll come to you in a sec 
you were fetched in and you did your National Service.
Now when you did 
this National Service you served your country for a set period of time.
I actually did three years of that that period of time in in in the Army.
The majority of people that went through that service all had some recollection of things they didn't enjoy very much but they by and large thoroughly enjoyed their experience in the Army, it livened them up, it made them better men and we have got after all one of the best armies if not the best army in the world, it's got to come from 
I don't think that's  
somewhere and it has to come from the training.
Alright Andrew briefly briefly.
Go on.
Basically I don't disagree with you, aye we have got the best army and I loved my I loved my time in the Army but I'm totally against the way I was treated in the Army.